More ICO tweaks please

[wraith lantern]

eh this piratepengu guys probably just a ragebaiter maes

[spice summit]

pretty obvious

[shell bramble]

and I enjoy it

[prime ferry]

MGs still suck. MGs are definitely used in real warfare because they can't hit the broadside of a barn with a half second burst. Why mess with rifle handling to make it easier and not touch MGs.

[prime ferry]

Like, the recoil has improved, but fighting with stoopid levels of MOA is dumb.

[lethal compass]

Just had an idea. I noticed that the UE5 update has messed with the smoke from gun barrels which blinds players (It's way to pronounced and thick, plus it lasts too long). This gave me an idea.

What if debris and dust is used to blind the player instead of the ICO blur effect? What if the visual blur and desaturation from the ICO suppression effect was removed and instead replaced with in game dust and particles that would linger when cover was shot, much like the current gun smoke?

The more you shoot at enemies in cover, the more dust and debris pops up. That way we can keep the mechanics of the visual impairment from the ICO suppression, but in a way that's more accurate to IRL suppression. This would also let enemies out of cover either try to return fire quickly or go prone to avoid fire instead of going blind and having "flinch". If an enemy is in cover, the shooters goal should be to keep him there while the rest of the squad tries to kill him, and if the enemy is in the open the shooters goal should be to kill him (don't miss or he might be able to return fire or run away depending on how far away he is from cover). The enemies goal should be to either return fire or to move somewhere safer.

The rest of the ICO aiming mechanics (time to aim and stabilization) should keep enemies from quickly snapping onto the shooter if they are shot at while out of cover, but if the shooter keeps missing then he is at risk. This would incentivize people to play together to maximize the chance of killing enemies before they are shot by them and to make sure to hit their shots instead of relying on applying the suppression "debuff" (Both for the shooter and the enemy who is getting shot at, with the initial shooter having the advantage at first).

This would also "localize the effect of suppression to the location that is being shot at rather than "into" the player. If the player moves to a safer spot then they are no longer blinded. This would solve the issue where the suppression effect lingers way too long even after the player has moved out of danger.

A big part of this isn't so much result of the effect but the implementation. I've noticed a lot of the frustration from current ICO "suppression" is how forced and artificial it feels. Because of that, any issues (such as lingering suppression and the effect activating when it shouldn't) feel unfair and forced, which results in players more likely to fight against it than work around it. People are simple, if they can rationalize the effect then they are more likely to accept it and try to work with it.

[zealous anvil]

MG-3 is pretty good now

[prime ferry]

I havent played Iran yet so no comment, but I trust your comment

[sly crown]

MG3 has always been a bit of an exception.

[young dune]

holy shit dude how can u say that battlefield level scoping and gun handling is somewhat realistic
right now, i can easily spray half of my magazine in one point that's 50 meters away with 4x optic
nobody in fucking whole world can do this

[wraith lantern]

I mean to be honest you could probably solve this particular issue by changing how suppression functions. It's just a linear falloff right now. But you could for instance have different rates of falloff that happen based on how long it's been since the last suppression instance. So like you keep taking shots at least once per 3 seconds then it dissapates at rate 1. But if you're not getting shot at it starts to dissapate faster and faster so. Say we want suppression to falloff in 9 seconds. We set whatever max suppression is lets call it 300 or 300% for simplicity. Seconds 0 to 3 fall off at 25/sec Seconds 3-6 falls off at 70/sec and Seconds 6-9 falls off at 210/sec. Could even tie it so that different weapons trigger initial rates or whatever. But TL DR just ramp up the decay overtime and you can have suppression last longer when it's happening and fall off quicker when its not happening.

[nova canopy]

but moooom, we don't want supression at all, I cannot express my skill. - Comp community, colorized, cca 2025

[wraith lantern]

in fairness only after "But mom we don't want to keep getting dunked on, I cannot express my tactical genius with working weapons." - Milsimmers colorized 2015-2023

[lucid pivot]

Dude you're drinking the wrong coolaid

[robust thistle]

The primary job of MG’s IRL is suppression. People IRL tend to avoid danger areas once they are identified. They don’t peak corners and they don’t keep rushing over open ground if hostile MG’s are covering said areas. Rather they try to establish their own fire superiority or they look for another, safer avenue of maneuver.

Too many People on this discord assume that their kit K/D ratios are meant to be accurate proxies for real life weapons efficacy - they’re not.

Game as is has some issues which could be tweaked and adjusted, but the major feature and mechanics do a decent job of encouraging team play.

[sly crown]

They don't do it because the dust kicked up is too much for their little eyes though

They do it because MGs are accurate enough to saturate an area so that being in that area is incompatible with life

For reference they are meant to be effective out to 500-800m! They are barely effective at 300m in Squad now.

[next frost]

The primary purpose of MGs it to kill many people as fast as possible

Anyway they are decent in UE5. They are not lasers like pre ICO, but a static enemy within 300m can easily be killed with a short burst.

[merry flame]

The layers are the same?

[robust thistle]

The primary purpose of MG’s is to suppress and deter enemy maneuver.

Real life combatants aren’t mindless drones who keep moving into hostile fires. People who are alive tend to want to stay that way.

[dim holly]

but squad players are mindless drones who keep moving into hostile fires. so the MG needs to be strong enough to punish that

[sly crown]

Keep in mind that suppression does not affect scopes. It is also an important factor in the discussion regarding MG and suppression effectiveness.

[robust thistle]

Server and mod dependent.

Also, the new patch did finetune MG’s quite a bit; IMHO, their weapons handling has been improved.

[sly crown]

As it stands, a Rifleman can outshoot an MG in a head to head.

[dim holly]

servers/mod irrelevant. the MG deters movement because moving there would get you killed, not get dirt kicked up everywhere. players that wish to preserve their lives should not enter an MG's line of fire, players that don't wish this should be efficiently killed by MG.

i agree they did make it better, but its still not very good

if you dont want MG's to be as effective at longer ranges, reduce the kits with optics. dont give them silly handling properties when bipoded

[robust thistle]

Server and mods make all the difference. Good servers have less blueberry conga lines and more coordinated squad maneuvers. Certain mods also draw in the solo FPS kill-streak types….GE bring a prime example.

The MG’s in the current patch are more than capable of killing enemy. The suppression feature simply enhances their deterrence factor because gamer/respawn mindset trends toward riskier behavior. Getting killed in-game isn’t a big deal for most players. In fact, it’s expected.

[dim holly]

game balance should not be dictated by the lowest standard of blueberries. if a bunch of idiots want to run out into a field with an MG watching they should die not go blurry. suppression is for before they've run into the field and you're "encouraging them" to stay put

im not saying make the m249 a solo warrior machine. but the bipod recoil for all MGs is comical. it feels like they 3d printed them and they're trying to jump off their bipods

[robust thistle]

arguably, it’s features like suppression that attract dedicated players to squad and discourages the casual gamers from playing. I don’t think OWI put suppression in the game to make life easier for new players. I think they put it in to distinguish the gameplay from other FPS games.

[dim holly]

what does that have to do with what i said though. i never said people shouldnt get suppressed, i said suppression is for BEFORE you make the stupid play that should kill you. not while you do the stupid play that should kill you

the weapon should be strong enough that players die for their mistakes instead of get away with it because the MG burst went 4 feet high after the first shot

and the suppression should be effective enough that the players dont WANT to push out and feed them

because they dont expect to get away with it

[robust thistle]

People don’t care about dying in a game. Ergo the argument that the threat of dying will serve as suppression is false. Gamers will push boundaries and take chances because if they fail the first time around they’ll have many opportunities to try again. Suppression IRL works through fear; you can’t replicate that fear in a video game, so OWI relies on artificial constructs to try and achieve a similar outcome in player behavior.

[dim holly]

players do care about dying what are you talking about?? in squad dying is significantly more inconvenient than going blurry. asserting that dying isnt cared about by players in squad laughable

players dont want to spend 3 minutes running back to theirs squad from the HAB far more than they dont want to wait a few seconds to see again

[robust thistle]

a gamer doesn’t treat a ticket the same way that an IRL combatant values his/her life. To argue otherwise is just plain ignorance.

[dim holly]

no shit not like real life

[robust thistle]

Cool. So now you understand my point.

[dim holly]

but
sitting on menu respawn timer: bad
sitting behind cover blurry with no punishment: meh
being able to sprint past an MG's line of fire and just going blurry because every shot missed: mindbendingly silly

its gotta be able to punish stupididy. not just be a magic wand you point at people you want to go blurry but stay alive

[sly crown]

And they never will.

[dim holly]

been my point from the jump

[sly crown]

Its an irrelevant argument to make.

game is not irl, game does not uninstall after the first time you die.

life is less valuable by fundamentals. you will never overcome this.

[robust thistle]

If you’re consistently missing enemy in the open as MG role at near or intermediate distance….skill issue. MG’s are fairly accurate in the new patch.

[sly crown]

What is "fairly accurate" to you?

Have you tested it or are you just going off of pure vibes

Because I have tested it

[dim holly]

i never said anything about near range. they are not consistently accurate in the 200-300+ meter range which is far more appropriate

[robust thistle]

I’m not having much issue getting on target. Are you using irons or optics? Irons are inherently compromised at distance.

[dim holly]

optics. m240 and mg3 are what ive played full games testing. the others just briefly in jensens

[dim holly]

you can get on target but if you start a burst on someone you get extreme first shot recoil. and if you try to move a burst onto someone the MOA is just silly past that 200-300m range

[wraith lantern]

I mean if OWI isn't capping then they are objectively more accurate this patch. Whether or not the recoil is low enough so that accuracy actually means anything is another story.

[sly crown]

They are, as per recoil misalignment reduction

There is still more to go.

[robust thistle]

I’m having plenty of fun with the MG kit. Maybe just keep practicing?

[dim holly]

they are improved. but not as improved as i would like for the role i understand they should be filling

[dim holly]

never said not fun. literally just said i want slight buff

[sly crown]

Having fun with a kit is not a good argument towards skill or meta effectiveness.

You can have fun with a pistol kit. Does not make it effective or powerful.

[robust thistle]

Patch was just released and I’m sure there will be more tweaks in the future. Play the game and let’s see where things stand in 1-2 months.

[dim holly]

unreal. we're here to discuss where we want things to be in 1-2 months idk if you missed that part

[sly crown]

no bro you dont understand if you give no criticism about it now it will magically improve later

🧠

Sledge is operating purely off of vibes

[dim holly]

differing opinions are scary things

[sly crown]

if he makes another "erm skill issue" comment i'm gonna need to see your mysquadstats page

[robust thistle]

You’re complaining about a patch that is barely 1 week old. That’s not enough time for the impacts on meta and gameplay to be fully realized. This place is an echo chamber for whiners and know-it-alls. Meanwhile 10k other players are consistently having a good time in the actual game.

A little bit of perspective is helpful.

[dim holly]

"complaining" bruh im here to express my opinion about the patch thats barely a week old. if you cant handle that then dont browse the #1230644232029737010. if you have a different one thats fine! but dont expect me to adopt it just because you think its more right. i think im more right! if you're not one of the know-it-alls in this echo chamber then why not say "huh, i disagree" instead of resorting to skill issue lol

[robust thistle]

I’m not expecting you to adopt anything. You expressed an opinion and I disagreed with it.

[vale elbow]

Keeping the thread alive

Mgs are still bad, they will stay bad because that is the point of ICO. Shooting players in the chest or head is bad, shooting around the players chest or head good

Time to close the thread so we can move on to discussing he horrors of AAS and RAAS

[dim holly]

dont you worry.... https://discord.com/channels/91294111071469568/1412501311043403899

[wraith lantern]

tbf I think the entire point of the ICO was to be operating off vibes

so sounds like sledge is just fallin in line

[vale elbow]

Sledge is the target audience

[robust thistle]

I see plenty of players who are lethal as hell in-game. Just think the ICO complaint is a bit tired and overplayed at this point.

[sly crown]

Your perspective is not worth anything. You are only assessing the game off of vibes. It does not take weeks to perform testing in a local server.

You can see the performance of MGs right now, with objectivity, today.

M240G in v9.0 looks like this. It is not a difficult thing to verify.

That's the spread of 3 round bursts at 300m.

[wraith lantern]

3.6m spread, not great not terrible

[sly crown]

Now, I'm no machinegun expert let alone an M240 expert, but anecdotally online I see references from real users of the weapon that claim an ideal MOA of somewhere around 3-4, and a worst case scenario of up to 10 with say a heated barrel from prolonged usage. A 10 MOA (for 100 yards) at 300m should result in roughly a 30" or less than 3ft spread. Now I didn't pull out a measuring tape, but I'm pretty sure that from my aim point (which is NOT the chevron; I am aiming at the window using the 300m range which is the tip of the red verticle line portion) the rightmost hit is over 6ft away

So this is somewhere on the order of two times worse performance than the worst case scenario of IRL

I can definitely give some room for shrunken engagement distances, and not wanting these to be lasers, but it's still quite wide!

[dim holly]

slay king. this is exactly what i was referring to

[robust thistle]

3.6m cone of fire probably a bit larger than IRL, but for a bipoded MG that certainly is workable.

[sly crown]

Bro said that a 3 round burst should miss the target by 12 feet.

at 300m.

Are you joking or did you not understand what you were saying?

You realize these weapons are meant to be fired in much longer bursts at much longer distances effectively, right?

I wish I could show you the same screenshot without the first round. All of the rounds that hit near the window are first shot of the burst.

Which should make it blatantly obvious that any single fire platform can outperform an MG...

Several of those shots won't even inflict suppression at all.

[vale elbow]

Sledge might be a cultist

[wraith lantern]

To put whats nvvys saying in perspective. Hypothetically lets say you're shooting at average sized man with this weapon for 3 bursts as he described. A 3.6m diameter circle would be about 10.18m^2 area. Average area of a Squad soldier simplifying them down into a rectangle of 1.7m x say 0.5m seems roughly accurate considering they're aiming at you would be 0.85m^2 area. So the opponent is filling roughly 8% of the circle. Assuming pure random chance the chance of you hitting that soldier at least once is 32%. That's what you deem acceptable?

[sly crown]

You might as well consider it a 2 round burst actually because first round accuracy is not an issue here

so realistically the % is lower

[edgy gate]

Gunplay is actually much better

So glad they fixed it

I havnt tried the mgs though

[robust thistle]

You shouldn't assume an equal distribution of shots anywhere within that cone of fire. IRL, and in fact in Squad, there is a higher density of impacts closer to the center of that cone. So I'd say that the chance of hitting a soldier is greater than 32%.

[edgy gate]

I also like the insane amount of smoke that comes out of the barrel

[dim holly]

sledge has fun with how things are as is, so nothing needs to change

[wraith lantern]

Even if we get optimistic with it and say like 100% of the shots will land in a circle half that diameter that's still only 42%

Were also assuming you hit the guy on your first shot if you dont you need to land 2 shots in most cases

[robust thistle]

I don't follow that math. Again, the distribution of impacts within a cone of fire is not equally weighted.

[wraith lantern]

Well it'd take some sharkman level math to calculate the actual hit probability. Since we have for every single shot the MOA roll, the recoil alignment pointing the gun out of whack and then where the recoil has placed the cursor. So just rough random guesstimations here.

[sly crown]

It's a simplification, but regardless even weighting to the center does not drastically improve the odds; 1m is still a miss.

with how recoil works you can pretty much count on the first shot bouncing away from your point of aim so it's not a linear weighted distribution towards the center either.

You're grasping for straws to justify a 3 round burst having an MOA of 48@100yards

[robust thistle]

Yep, you're right. The math for determining hit probability is a bit more complex than figuring out some circular and rectangular areas. I also see diminishing returns in trying to accurately map in-game weapons accuracy to IRL results.

If a MG role can consistently put rounds close enough to get suppression effects, then I think the kit is proving effective enough. Kills will come with volume of fire and/or the enemy getting too bold.

[sly crown]

lol

The mental defense on this one is strong. No new thoughts getting in there.

[wraith lantern]

But if I can just kill the enemy easier with another weapon without having to rely on muh suppression effects, why would I pick up the MG? Unless my opponents are all clustered in the same 10m the MG isn't really providing me with much benefit.

[sly crown]

Suppression is ineffective, and the accuracy in game right now does not even support strong suppression effect.

Scoped Rifleman will easily outdo an MG, while being also more versatile (capable in CQ) and having more utility (ammo bag)

This is your best case scenario in game with an MG, doing tiny bursts, and it's still unreliable.

Real usage of this should be extended bursts, and at 300m should not have much difficulty hitting the target with a greater accuracy than 1/3 or less.

And this is talking about someone standing in the open

Not someone in cover.

[robust thistle]

I just can't relate to the MG role being deprived of kills. I don't have issues getting kills with that kit, but I also think it is much more dependent upon positioning relative to other kits. Other kits have the ability to rack up kills on the move or when static. For most scenarios, MG's need to be static; a player can have dry spells with suboptimal positioning.

[sly crown]

post ur squad stats mr. high kills.

[vale elbow]

Definitely averages single digit incaps

[sly crown]

https://mysquadstats.com/search/76561197996430459#vanillaStats

found it.

he's got basically zero stats but for the one that has the most recorded season 2 he maxed out at a 0.96

[vale elbow]

Insufficient skill to have an issue

[sly crown]

As I said, he is a vibes based entity. He is having fun. I support him having fun. But he should stay out of this discussion, because he has a very poor understanding.

[quick panther]

bro pulled out the stats

[sly crown]

Its the funniest way to defuse skill issue cope posts

[quick panther]

what about your stats nvvy

can you give me your steamid

[merry flame]

lol

[sly crown]

ya im same name one sec ill link

https://mysquadstats.com/search/76561197961564085#vanillaStats

i definitely do not claim to be the best or even that good

[merry flame]

Apples to oranges comparison anyway

[quick panther]

decent kd

hopefully youre not a vic player

[merry flame]

Playing on TT is worlds diff vs playing on Riplomacy or TPF

[dim holly]

5.5h recorded playtime? how far back does mysquadstats go

[sly crown]

nah. inf sl main, but i also play every role including helis

[dim holly]

or is it only participating servers

[sly crown]

mostly driver in vics.

[merry flame]

Only participating servers

[sly crown]

if they could record pure inf kd i'd be happy

[sly crown]

only participating servers, he has old stats but not much recent. DMH and/or 44th must not record

[quick panther]

44th does

[sly crown]

Well, DMH it is then.

Last I saw they had a broadcast that said something to the effect of "PROTIP: 27 man back caps are good"

[merry flame]

also my squad stats might be broken

[sly crown]

So that should tell you something about the quality of players there

[merry flame]

no nvvy 27 backcap is meta

[sly crown]

definitely busted, but moreso in the regard of just not capturing stats rather than the stats being incorrect, tbf

anyway lets not get too offtopic before I get blasted

tl;dr: MGs do in fact, objectively, suck. You can have fun with them like any gun, but they are just plain worse than a Rifleman for anything but suppression effects. Given that scopes are not affected by suppression, and suppression is generally overrated as a function compared to actually hitting your target, this is not a meaningful alternative to accuracy required to wound and kill targets.

They do not need to be lasers to be better than they are.

[dense eagle]

can confirm

[wary radish]

Played a fair bit of MG.

They tend to be accurate for the intial 5 round burst from what I saw during gameplay.

And while they are quite bad for use without deploying the bipod (and IMO should have some sort of braced hipfire stance that allows for semi accurate fire while not deployed), they're pretty decent when one does have them deployed and controls their bursts.

[vocal orbit]

The first shot is always accurate, the second shot is sometimes accurate, but by the third shot it sends your aim way off in a random direction. the first 5 shots should be accurate horizontally (meaning a reasonable amount of horizontal recoil) and then decay after that with a consistant vertical recoil throughout.

The way mg is right now is more or less a worse rifleman kit with no ammo bag, since you have to semi auto tap fire to be somewhat accurate.

[sly crown]

@wary radish 3 round bursts are already inaccurate as sin

Better than before but at least double the inaccuracy of the absolute worst case estimate of their performance irl

[frosty gull]

A better system for gameplay, and more accurate to the way most MGs work IRL would be to have the initial shot shift/jump then have the the recoil before very controllable after the initial inaccuracy. That way longer bursts would be used for killing, while single shots/short bursts weren't super accurate.

[tranquil basin]

If you have a hard time against younger players with quick reflexes you should check out our server.

[sly crown]

Thanks for the recommendation I will be sure to check it out

[tranquil basin]

I don't really play with MGs outside of seeding, but it feels like being drunk

[tranquil basin]

You're welcome always glad to help

MG and sniper players are usually prone to getting stabbed, they are what professionals call easy targets.

[tranquil basin]

He even has knife kills

[tranquil basin]

DM me yours and I'll show you mine

[robust thistle]

That’s been my experience as well.

[merry flame]

Is this accurate?

[nova canopy]

true fps gamers HATE this idea, find out why!

[nova canopy]

Up to your own interpretation, for I am art in flesh.

[vale elbow]

an even wilder idea is you could just have the recoil curve be more intense and then level off with MOA increasing as you fire (zero MOA scaling within the first 20 shots), no recoil misalignment, no sight misalignment. simples

then MG won't be shit and you aren't able to non-stop mag dump until you're dry, maybe that's too reasonable for OWI. performant MGs with a rational downside all seems too much

[frosty gull]

Longer bursts of fire should be what MGs are nudged towards.
Long bursts aren't an inherently bad think that should make MG's less effective, that just pushes them towards the role(s) or other weapons.

[wary radish]

AFAIK, the norm for MGs is to use 5-10 round bursts (1.5 to 2.5 seconds, basically), while avoiding long continuous bursts.

Also why belts have their tracers in a 4+1 configuration; you'll usually get 1-2 tracers per burst, giving the gunner a pretty good idea of where the rounds from each burst are landing.

[frosty gull]

When I said "long-bursts" I meant the 6 - 9 / 8 - 12 / 12 - 15 round bursts that are taught as the proper length for a "killing burst" (depending on weapon/employment/nation).

[true island]

“its a machine gun”

[nova canopy]

dont even know why armies use dmrs, its just a worse version of a gpmg, and usually the same calibre.

[wary radish]

They have their uses; they're meant for precise mid-long range shots vs GPMGs which tend to be built for suppression.

But also; GPMGs are heavy cumbersome things with even more cumbersome ammo requirements. In a world where most infantry is ultimately expected to be mechanized, that weight and bulk is a bigger issue than one would initially give it credit for.

There's a pretty good reason most cold war powers were trying desperately to shift focus to LMGs and make those LMGs more rifle like; those just work much better for infantry that has to ride in often very confined APCs and IFVs.

[nova canopy]

Aha then they should all use dmrs and click heads, like true soldiers in squad do.

[frosty gull]

"But also; GPMGs are heavy cumbersome things with even more cumbersome ammo requirements. In a world where most infantry is ultimately expected to be mechanized, that weight and bulk is a bigger issue than one would initially give it credit for."

Is today opposite day?

[stone oar]

In the matches I’ve played these past few days, the GPMG is always left unselected—it’s just way too weak. Its massive bullet spread, along with the smoke, muzzle flash, and loud noise it produces, makes players using this weapon extremely vulnerable, yet it doesn’t have corresponding offensive capabilities to compensate. The recoil when firing from the shoulder means this gun can only be used in a deployed mode. But even in deployed mode, its kill efficiency at all ranges is worse than that of a rifle with an optical sight. There’s only one exception: when enemy "noobs" are clustered together. But in that case, why not just use a grenade launcher instead?

The suppressive power of a machine gun lies in players' minds, not in the on-screen effects, my friend. Before the ICO update, no one dared to pass directly through an area covered by a GPMG . But now, the machine gun only poses a tiny threat within 50 meters; beyond that range, it does nothing but make players feel disgusted by the screen distortion. And even within 50 meters, other types of firearms can perform far better....

[frosty gull]

If you leave suppressive effects in players' minds then you're going to get the pre-ICO paradigm of the guy that says, "nuh uh," to your suppression and just shoots the gunner in the head.

[sly crown]

This is the current paradigm.

[prime ferry]

Yeah i think you are comprehension is wrong, OC is saying that suppression is meaningless because it's only a vibe thing

[frosty gull]

Yes.
The difference was that MGs were more effective in directly killing, but still not a better choice than a rifleman in either area (suppressing or killing).

[simple cargo]

Dude the amount of times not only me but enemies have ran through my sustained MG fire just because we know it's too inacurate to kill us. As long as you aren't trying to stand in the open 1v1ing a MG thats already bipoded flat you don't have to worry about them.

If they aren't bipoded then they cant shoot and have to run around looking for a spot that isn't bugged and if they are you can just run to cover and flank them because they cant kill you before you do.

No amount of screen effects make me care about the MG if i can just run from its bullets.

The only time it's good is when you have a good prepared position within ~50 meters in which case any weapon is good because once they push past your sight line that the MG loses it's ability because you cant effectively fight unbipoded at any distance compared to a rifle

pre ICO I would not have ran in the open in front of a MG like i do post ICO

I really cant overstate this, the change from

scary MG that will kill you
to
MG that might kill you but put Vaseline on your screen

is a bad change

It wouldn't be that bad if the bipod system actually worked though

[sly crown]

Eh... I don't know about that one. MGs used to be very oppressive in certain positions. Rifles definitely still had their advantages, but...

[merry flame]

Yall never played vs Zat and it clearly shows

[frosty gull]

I agree, but outside of situational use I think it was relatively late that they were brought near parity with rifles.
The USMC MG was the one that didn't have to deal with being at a disadvantage because of a lack of magnified optic. Some of the SAWs had them as well, while not squatting on a specialist slot. Without those a lot of the areas where MGs could/should have been useful were either being supplanted by the other options, or were being soft-countered by other roles being able to easily kill them.

[sly crown]

Without far more flexibility of bipod deployment I just don’t see that changing. Static positions are always worse, more vulnerable, and weapons are capable of pinpoint accuracy across very long ranges. Even if the guy you’re suppressing is worst case scenario completely pinned and has a non-PIP optic and thus affected by suppression, you’re more vulnerable than a rifleman would be in the same situation just by virtue of bipod

MGs being accurate enough to actually be threatening with extended bursts at range is just one step of actually making them viable.

[vale elbow]

Are we still stuck on guns killing people in?

[stone oar]

However, machine gunners also take on greater risks, due to factors such as the frequency and characteristics of gunfire, the frequency of movement