More ICO tweaks please

[sly crown]

He is responsible for his failure

Not the game

Literally let go of w

[vocal orbit]

the game shouldnt be so extreme in misalignment though is the argument under the conditions he was in

[sly crown]

And that would have gone 10x smoother for OP, even though it was a terrible way to start that engagement at all

Misalignment is not why he lost

Flat out

He fucking missed bro

He lost that fight before misalignment ever mattered

[vocal orbit]

under the conditions yes. Under different conditions where he crouched and stopped no

[sly crown]

No

[vocal orbit]

the point is the misalignment walking ads is overdone

[sly crown]

Yes

Still does not change how terrible that was on OPs part

Would not have fixed his issue

He still would have missed, still would draw an outline, still returned fire on

Literally the solution is so simple

Stop walking.

You can walk right up to the point you’re about to shoot

OP is literally walking the entire time in that clip

Through the entire full auto bursts

If you stop for one millisecond you will have an easier time and you know what you can do after you kill them? Sprint

Defending that clip in any regard is just braindead I’m sorry

[vocal orbit]

under ICO conditions youre right. But thats nbot what the video is pointing out. Theres ways to work around ICO, regardless of how fun they are. Like bill said earlier you can just prone in a bush adn assume the most optimal ICO position.

Its saying that under those circumstances it should be more manageable.

[sly crown]

No bill is a memelord and that isn’t ideal

Stop taking the bait

The ONLY

Thing

That needs to be done

Is let go of w

That would have improved this clip 10x immediately

Even better would be to not walk in the open towards an enemy

But all you need to do is not hold w the entire engagement

[vocal orbit]

brother youre missing the point. that shot should be manageable if OWI didnt trash the infantry experience

[sly crown]

no

That is hardcore copeposting

He missed and used every mechanic wrong

Stop asking for the game to correct your mistakes

This again would be no different to complaining about CS gunplay mechanics and demanding they make strafing accurate

It’s absolutely moronic

There are a lot of issues we can agree on regarding ICO being hamfisted

In no world should OP have won that fight

[vocal orbit]

if the other guy had visual at the same time no, but he had more than enough time before he turned around

[sly crown]

he

MISSED

the other guy had better aim UNDER SUPPRESSION

there is no excuse

OP is bad

And wants the game to cater to his failures rather than changing how he plays to maximize his advantages

[vocal orbit]

look at the reticle the second shot in, its not even visible

[tranquil basin]

I agree, I would have used the knife instead.

[sly crown]

Yall are way too quick to defend terrible plays

[vocal orbit]

that is the issue

[sly crown]

Its visible until like 4th shot

[tranquil basin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg0yYl4JVWA

[sly crown]

He literally starts by missing past the guys right hip

Like dog

This is bad play

That is not where center mass is

If you can’t aim, start putting mechanics in your favor, the first of which is to remove movesway and increase stabilization

Which happens basically immediately when you release W as of patch 8.2

If you can’t understand how to put these mechanics into place in your gameplay you will be stuck in Gold CS lobbies

It’s not a milsim larp answer, this is FPS mechanics 101

You can criticize the ICO without getting baited by every clip that showcases the worst play possible

[lethal compass]

I do think current ADS time and weapon stability is pretty good, it gets people to stop running and gunning. Stop, aim, then shoot (if you don't want to miss). It just needs tweaking with sight alignment while shooting the gun.

Honestly I think a big issue with the ICO comes from the responsibility of suppression being placed on the shooter instead of the person getting shot at. SQUAD lets you apply a debuff to the enemy by shooting at them, which puts the power in the shooters hands (like you're casting a spell) while IRL it's a matter of the shooter maintaining sustained fire on the enemy and the enemy also not wanting to get shot.

The shooter's priority shouldn't be to "apply a debuff" it should be to maintain sustained fire on the enemy, while the enemies priority shouldn't be to "be suppressed" it should be to not get shot and die.

A major frustrating aspect with the ICO that I have noticed is how players feel like they lack control. No one likes getting killed mid-animation, but they can still own up to the mistake for pulling out a grenade at the wrong time. It's very frustrating for players to die due to a debuff they can't really do anything about besides suck it up and "be suppressed". When you peak the PKM and die (rightfully) you can't really get mad, and you should learn not to peak the PKM when it's shooting at you (you silly goober). When you're in a firefight and you die because you couldn't see the enemy through the suppression effect it is frustrating (despite the fact that the enemy was probably under the same effect, it is still frustrating because it feels like RNG).

Fire superiority shouldn't be a debuff you apply to the enemy, it should be a tactic.

I assume the difficulty of implementing it as a tactic stems from underlying issues with the games respawn/medical system and gameplay loop (eg. I don't mind peaking a PKM when I know I can respawn at the rally afterwards or if the medic can just revive and heal me in under 30 seconds.)

In my humble opinion ICO's suppression mechanic is a solution that works, I just don't think it is THE solution.

[vocal orbit]

like i said, he could have been in semi, he could have crouched and stopped moving, and he would have hit those shots.

Again, what I am arguing is that the misalignment in those conditions (walking/ADS) is too extreme.

[sly crown]

Yes I have already agreed that alignment is exaggerated

But my point is it changes nothing about his death

[vocal orbit]

then were in agreement actually?

[sly crown]

If you agree he should have lost that fight then yes

He can lose and alignment can still be exaggerated

[tranquil basin]

He would have gotten away with it tbh, if it wasn't for those teenagers and that pesky dog.

[fleet mirage]

How can you still not understand
It's not the ICO that's bad, but how much the recoil have been tuned with the ICO

[lethal compass]

The spray was not the play

[sly crown]

Again

Criticizing ICO is valid

Defending that clip on OPs behalf is laughable

If you believe ICO needs to be tuned to such an extent that someone completely ignoring how to engage with the mechanics and aiming poorly is rewarded I think you lost the plot

[lethal compass]

semi automatic fire, unless you're indoors and/or in a good position to control recoil

[fleet mirage]

Suppression - good (fire superiority)
Handling - good (you are unable to do a quick snap after a mile run)
Recoil - the worst possible Ive ever seen in the FPS

[fleet mirage]

Are you ok?

20m full auto fire

[lethal compass]

do it while it's shooting back

[sly crown]

An amount of recoil is surely exaggerated

[fleet mirage]

Ah yes
Physics starts to work differently when they shoot back

[sly crown]

Some of the exaggeration is good, as laserbeams don’t make for very fun engagements

Some of it is over the top for sure

[lethal compass]

also, you are in good position to control recoil. this is nothing like the clips where OP is full auto while moving

[fleet mirage]

Visual recoil breaks everything

This twisting and twitching

[sly crown]

Yes the misalignment

[lethal compass]

that's what I'm saying, the visual recoil (misalignment) is terrible

[vocal orbit]

Supermods ICO tuning with sligtly less horizontal recoil would be a great compromise

[fleet mirage]

On the move we should get the worst possible recoil
But still even in prone position we have this stupid exaggerated spread

Even M249 on the bipods have this spread

[lethal compass]

I know, it sucks

you also can't brace the gun if it doesn't have a bipod in the game right now

[fleet mirage]

Check my messages above with SPM and Vanilla MG comparison

They made the right recoil

Its not laserbeaming, but we can control it

And you can cover a window at 500m with this recoil

Using 7,62 NATO rounds

[lethal compass]

that's what I mean by good position to control recoil. A situation where you can stand still and implement proper recoil control. Like prone and/or bipod or you have enough time to steady yourself while standing.

[sly crown]

Never seen anyone who I can take seriously saying MGs are in a good place in vanilla

[lethal compass]

Currently the game punishes you for shooting and moving (good) but the "reward" for going prone and bipoding or steadying your aim even when standing is not enough in my opinion.

[sly crown]

Pretty universal

[fleet mirage]

They were simply destroyed with the introduction of a new recoil

[sly crown]

Yes but also uniquely bad for those platforms

[fleet mirage]

This clip shows how its to play as the MG gunner in vanilla

[sly crown]

You definitely don't have to prove this to me phantom

I have been long an advocate for MGs being dumpster tier

[lethal compass]

MG's are useless at range unless they are an emplacement in the current game. The current bipod "buff" is not enough.

[sly crown]

#1263344453024743436 message

[lethal compass]

they are so bad rn it's not even funny 😭

[fleet mirage]

Check this message
This is how they should work with bipods

[lethal compass]

It doesn't help that you can barely get the bipod to deploy properly anyways

[vale elbow]

3118 messages. great work everyone

[fleet mirage]

I will clip how they work in SPM without the bipods

Still better than Vanilla one with bipods XD

[lethal compass]

brother I believe you

[sly crown]

I think that nerfing their unbipoded, stationary behavior while bipods are so poorly implemented was a very poor move in the ICO

[lethal compass]

Vanilla MGs are hot dookie

"This is where I would deploy my bipod... IF I HAD ONE!"

[fleet mirage]

I dont understand why OWI dont listening to the community
Just take a small steps in the direction that community asks for and look at the feedback

[sly crown]

They are. It's just super slow, which is still reasonable for you to be frustrated with

[lethal compass]

The first little piggy built his Bipod out of straw...

[sly crown]

Basically every patch has changed gunplay in some way or another

They put out the recoil survey recently

it's fucking snails pace, don't get me wrong

but it is happening

[fleet mirage]

I really hope that after 9.0 they will start to change something in the recoil system

[sly crown]

I hope that in 9.0 they adjust recoil, particularly for MGs.

It's one of the most glaring issues with ICO for certain

Most of the rifle gunplay is manageable post 8.2

[fleet mirage]

In current PT they removed the blur when you shooting continuously
So MGs feels much better now, but recoil is still shit

[sly crown]

I still think it won't matter until you can perform with an MG unbipoded

Being unable to move the weapon while keeping the bipod active is so cheeks

[fleet mirage]

Give us back the MGs superiority

[sly crown]

I genuinely would prefer bipods that are a passive aim bonus if the weapon was within a certain distance of an obstacle in front of you

because it's so stupid to have to fold up your bipod and redeploy it to strafe 1 inch

[broken socket]

Wait why are we referencing Counterstrike when that game has great running accuracy. It's just called buying an SMG lul.

[sly crown]

CS has terrible running accuracy, SMGs are just affected by it less.

If you are strafing while shooting on a buy round you are hardstuck silver

[fleet mirage]

Bipods should be a huge buff
But overall MGs should get more control in every position

[sly crown]

Muzzle lift needs to be proportional to the weight of the platform too

I'm not sure why muzzle lift is happening on a deployed m240 lol

[vale elbow]

in CS responsiveness is the point, in squad unresponsiveness is the point. complete polar opposites to the point of being almost incomparable

[sly crown]

lmao

such a bad take

[vale elbow]

not at all

[sly crown]

They literally share the same mechanic

[fleet mirage]

Heavy boi jumping around like a stick

[sly crown]

In both games, your accuracy rapidly increases as a result of releasing movement keys

This was a massive improvement in 8.2

This is not some cringelarp Arma shit

this is normal fps mechanics guys

The main difference between Squad and CS in this regard is that stability is directly tied to movespeed in CS while in Squad it's accumulated by movespeed and has it's own degeneration rate

So you don't get stutterstep mechanics in Squad

but the principle still applies: release movement, be more accurate

not that hard to grasp

[broken socket]

Also even though I might be a meme lord doesn't take a grand master to tell the whole just stand still and wait argument is defeated by buildings. I got 1 grenade and if that don't kill the guy diggin my radio im gunst to have to push. With how movesway is designed that means I'm gonna be at max pretty much immediately or I guess I could just let the radio die, it's prob fine. And just never push into clear buildings ever, that'd probably work.

[sly crown]

You are a memelord and a strawmanner unfortunately billy boy

I love you and your analyses but your argumentation is really bad

I don't agree with a stand still and wait playstyle. I am aggressive in game

That is not mutually exclusive to the concept of "stop pressing movement keys when you're trying to shoot accurately"

Again in that situation in the video, knowing only what terrain I can see in front of me, my response is going to be sprint left to get the car between me and him, stop, peek, fire

I am not going to hide in a bush, I'm still making ground because I have a 1x AK right

I know I need to be aggressive for the radio

jumping over right fence is slow

This is putting mechanics in your favor while still being aggressive

[vale elbow]

so clearly the mechanics are not the same if you have to explain their differences, the principle of movement means inaccuracy is. though in CS the player is in absolute control, you don't have to wait for an invisible value to decay away

[sly crown]

lmao

you literally do

CS movespeed decays much slower

that's why counterstep/stutterstep exists

please stop talking about something you don't understand

[vale elbow]

counter-strafing is near instant deceleration

i absolutely understand CS

[sly crown]

stability is if anything a more visible mechanic

it has a UI representation

lmao

It still has it's flaws, but this argument is really dumb

pretending that describing minute differences between the mechanics shared by two games somehow invalidates their relation to one another is goofy

[vale elbow]

the differences are small but they are still differences and the implications on gameplay feel are significant

to pretend otherwise is being dishonest

[sly crown]

Ok sure, none of that has any relevance to the topic at hand, which is whether or not you should be holding W in that situation from the clip lmao

Again, stopping to fire would have improved his situation

[vale elbow]

you've mentioned CS, nobody else

[sly crown]

It is silly to argue against this

[vale elbow]

you have introduced the comparison

[sly crown]

brother the comparison is still accurate

the games are different, of course they feel different

the mechanic remains the same

stop moving

be more accurate

this is not an obscure mechanic

[vale elbow]

that's a principle not a mechanic

[sly crown]

it is absolutely a mechanic

they literally programmed in instability in both games

that didn't come with the engine

that was a conscious choice

the developers made

This is really not hard to grasp. Stop moving, become more accurate. This is a game mechanic that has been true since before the ICO but is more exaggerated now. You don't need to be a bush wookie to benefit from this, you just need to release the key momentarily

pre 8.2 this did suck

Still sucks for some weapon types

[lost kindle]

All 7.62👆

[sly crown]

Eh, BRs still benefit from this

They're naturally a bit more unwieldy than ARs, and for that they trade OHK within 50 and guaranteed bleedout up to 100

[broken socket]

Conors literally 100% correct though. The principle is they intend for you to stop moving for optimal accuracy. The mechanic in each is different. One gives you large amounts of sway making holding an accurate shot more difficult, one doesn't change your aim point but gives you increasing deviation on the rounds coming out of the gun. Bruh wut

[sly crown]

The mechanics of each do differ, that doesn't change that they share the mechanic of movement = inaccuracy.

This is silly

[vale elbow]

they share the priciple

[sly crown]

No, they share the mechanic

Instability increases as a result of movespeed

CS's instability directly increases with movespeed

It doesn't have ADS, thus doesn't have sway

Pretending that this invalidates the mechanic comparison is very silly

[vale elbow]

i'm tapping out, i leave this to you if you want it bill. i'm going to play a game

[sly crown]

Movement in both games directly contributes to inaccuracy. This is a mechanic, not a principle. The principle is to utilize this mechanic by not walking while firing.

This statement applies directly to both games without any further context

There's simply no reason to argue against this, letting go of W would have improved OP's clip

The minutia of mechanical differences between both games don't change this

The reason for the comparison is to display that inaccuracy during movement is not an obscure game mechanic nor limited to some milsim shit

This is a mechanic consistent across a variety of shooters

Don't play CS like it's Halo

Don't play Squad like it's COD

Don't play Battlefield like it's Fortnite

[broken socket]

Eh fair enough Conor it's basically semantics. IDK Most people I know don't usually use mechanic to refer to overarching themes to the game. Like the mechanic itself true is "Stop moving and you get less accuracy" yes but its kinda easier to use the term to refer to specific implementations and then another word to refer to the idea behind the implementation. So usually at least the people I know use game mechanic to refer to a Game's mechanic singular and something like Conor mentioned principle as the guiding force and reason for the mechanics introduction. That way you kind of follow a logical flow from, Intention of the Feature -----> Direct Implementation of feature designed to make the intention reality ----> Result of implementation. So that way we can all logically follow when someone goes "The principles guiding the devs intended to make suppression useful, but the game mechanic they implemented made CQB play like ass." But you like a looser term of the word and that's totally cool slay pop off queen, just not really worth gettin into it about.

[sly crown]

That would be an incorrect use of the words

Mechanically, holding W increases inaccuracy value in both games

This is not a principle

This is a coded function

It's not nebulous, it is concrete

The principle would be how you apply this knowledge to how you play, which is to release movement keys before firing to increase your accuracy

Simply using vocabulary wrong doesn't make for an argument

"stop moving and you get less accuracy" lul

[broken socket]

Nah mechanically holding W causes your movesway value to skyrocket over the course of about half a second up to its full value of 6, and mechanically in CS GO it cause your deviation or spread w/e they call it to reach its maximum in whatever amount of milliseconds it is. Those are the mechanics. The idea behind the mechanics in they increase your inaccuracy.

You're confusing intent with implementation but I guess they're kinda the same thing for you I guess.

[sly crown]

That's a completely irrelevant argument Bill.

No, you're just flat out incorrect

That is not intent

The developers intended to implement a mechanic in each game that reduces inaccuracy while moving.

The implementation of those mechanics vary, yes.

The point is not to say that Squad is CS, that is the complete wrong takeaway of the argument

My argument: Moving creates inaccuracy. This is reflected in other popular game mechanics. You should stop holding W while firing.
Your argument: Yes moving creates inaccuracy but counterstrike uses deviation instead of sway and doesn't have a discrete value for stabilization and...

You are simply arguing past the point

Nobody is saying that these systems are equivalent

I am saying they are similar.

[broken socket]

?

[sly crown]

Principles are beliefs and ideas
Intent is reasoning for an action
Game mechanics are rules for interaction with game state
Implementations are the concrete details of a feature

[broken socket]

Correct

[sly crown]

Movement increasing inaccuracy is not a principle. It is a game mechanic.

There are differences in how this is represented in Squad and CS. This is because they each have a unique implementation of it and other systems that mesh with it.

[broken socket]

The game rule for Squad is that if you begin to move, I will give you movesway until you hit 6. This will increase your sway value from the swaymin value it sits at during rest based on your stance, and you will have more sway and thus be more inaccurate. That is the rule the game is telling you.

What you're telling me is "Yes game I understand the rule I will stop moving to shoot accurately"

[sly crown]

That is the principle in use, yes.

It is informed by the mechanic

[broken socket]

yes you're getting it the mechanic is the thing we're discussing

[sly crown]

Movement causes inaccuracy, thus I should stop moving before firing

[broken socket]

you're almost there

[sly crown]

Lmao

yall are the ones butchering terminology

[broken socket]

and when the mechanic changes but the intent behind the mechanic is the same, we say the share the same principle because they have the same objective.

Isn't commonplace verbiage great?

[sly crown]

lol

The mechanic remains the same, the implementations thereof differ.

Movement creates inaccuracy.

[broken socket]

It's just more effecient english which is why this doesn't really matter and im just adding to the post count. It doesn't have to do with ICO

Which is the entirety be all and end all of my "Argument"

Which is why its doubly hilarious you managed to pull "Your argument: Yes moving creates inaccuracy but counterstrike uses deviation instead of sway and doesn't have a discrete value for stabilization and..." that quote off

anyway foxhole queues done

[sly crown]

lol both of you blatantly misused terminology throughout this argument

please

It's not even addressing the argument being made, you're literally arguing semantics but wrong

[broken socket]

Example for Clarity:

Mechanic: In CS:GO, when a player moves, the game applies a spread multiplier (e.g., 1.5x) to the weapon’s base accuracy over 200 milliseconds.
Effect: Moving makes your shots less accurate (e.g., bullets spread wider).
Principle: Encourage players to stop and aim carefully to reward precision.
So, you’re spot-on: "movement increasing inaccuracy" is the effect players observe, not the mechanic itself, which is the specific coded rule causing that effect. If you want to explain this to nvvy, you could say:

"Hey nvvy, you’re close, but 'movement increasing inaccuracy' isn’t the mechanic—it’s the effect of the mechanic. The mechanic is the actual coded rule, like how Squad ramps up sway to 6 when you move, or how CS:GO tweaks spread values. Calling the effect a mechanic mixes things up. The principle is why devs added it, like ‘make moving less viable for accurate shooting.’ Wanna hash out another example to lock this in?"

[sly crown]

lmfao

it is literally the mechanic, bill

the implementation of both differ, you are mistaking terms

and again all of this is semantic nothingness

[vale elbow]

i was trying to ensure we both have the same understanding and definition of the words we're using, it's important to have that in a conversation

[broken socket]

"Hey nvvy, let’s clear up the mechanic vs. effect vs. principle thing using StarCraft 2’s main buildings: Command Center (Terran), Hatchery (Zerg), and Nexus (Protoss). You called 'movement increasing inaccuracy' a mechanic, but it’s really the effect of a mechanic, and I think you’re mixing up terms like that here too. Let me break it down with the building costs.

Game Mechanic: The specific, coded rules for how these buildings work in the game. For example:
Command Center costs 400 minerals, takes 71 seconds to build, and produces 1 SCV at a time (50 minerals, 12 seconds each).
Hatchery costs 300 minerals, takes 71 seconds to build, and spawns 3 Larvae instantly (with more over time for unit production).
Nexus costs 400 minerals, takes 71 seconds to build, and produces 1 Probe at a time (50 minerals, 12 seconds each). These are the hard-coded rules—exact costs, build times, and what each building does. That’s the mechanic: the game’s concrete systems.
Effect: The outcome players experience because of these mechanics. Here, the effect is: 'Terran and Protoss spend more minerals upfront (400) for their main building compared to Zerg (300), but Zerg need an extra 200 minerals for a Spawning Pool to make units.' Another effect is that Zerg can start producing units faster because of Larvae, while Terran and Protoss build workers one-by-one. This is what you notice in-game, not the mechanic itself.
Game Development Principle: The design reasoning behind these mechanics. Blizzard made the costs different to reflect each race’s identity. The principle for Zerg is 'enable fast, flexible unit production to emphasize swarm tactics,' so the Hatchery’s lower cost (300 minerals) and Larvae system let Zerg players expand and produce quickly. For Terran, the principle might be 'emphasize sturdy, versatile infrastructure,' so the Command Center’s 400 minerals and ability to upgrade (Orbital Command) reflect that. For Protoss, it’s 'prioritize high-tech, expensive units,' so the Nexus (400 minerals) supports a slower, quality-focused economy. These principles guide why the mechanics exist.

To be 100% honest as long as we're on the same page I'll call it whatever you wanna call things. You wanna call the direct code of movesway goes up to 6 when moving peanutbutterbanana smoothie I'm game just let me know what words were using to mean what.

[sly crown]

Game mechanics are rules, the implementations of which can differ throughout a game's history lol

Games can share mechanics with differing implementations

none of this does anything to address the argument

Please go google game mechanics, check out any number of videos talking about game mechanics they like, or that they wish to see more of, and I guarantee you will be hearing them talk about the rules, not the implementations

They'll tell you how they liked reputation systems with NPCs, not how you lose exactly 3 points when you don't bathe.

Please, stop wasting your breath using terminology incorrectly and address the argument

Moving creates inaccuracy. This is reflected in other popular game mechanics. You should stop holding W while firing.

[broken socket]

so were using implementation instead all good king, for every I referred to as mechanic for ease of communication I will now refer to as an implementation

👍

[sly crown]

Toasterbrain as usual

Thank you for conceding you do not understand the terminology

Let's all move on with our lives

[broken socket]

nah I said I'm chill using whatever terminilogy you want to use so we can all understand each other

w/e definitions they are we'll go by yours just for expediencys sake

[sly crown]

They're simply the normal definitions, please take for example this.

[Dodging is] satisfying on it's own, but there's one mechanic that makes mashing that circle button so much better, and it's Perfect Dodging. Platinum is who popularized this mechanic with Bayonetta's "Witch Time" and they're still the masters of implementing it. But so many games use some form of this mechanic and it's always satisfying. Just wait until an enemy is about to hit you, then dodge at the very last moment to trigger a Perfect Dodge which slows down time and lets you wail on the bad guys for a while until the timer goes out.
https://youtu.be/_vwr8Uwq8Fg?si=szpbZsEwhrB0VW1i&t=214
He later goes on to say that Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, and the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild all share this mechanic.

Just like those games, Counter Strike and Squad share mechanics, not implementations

[sly crown]

If we're all happy with this statement, you can choose to ignore the above and keep it to yourself

[broken socket]

well using your terminology the sentence would read as "Moving creates inaccuracy" ( a game mechanic.) This is reflected in other popular game implementations. "But yeah man like we said we on board.

[sly crown]

That is, exactly, word for word, what I said.

Which again, is just the terminology.

[broken socket]

sick we're are in accord like previously stated kerfuffle averted

[nova canopy]

you have explained the point of ICO perfectly - its who gets the volume of fire going first, and it is not "fun" on the receiving end, but its also not fun getting AWPed in CS, while feeling good being the AWPer and dishing out filth. Turning into several blind soldiers is also the most realistic outcome.

would it be fair to say... that the outcome would be massively in favor of the AK guy if he only had a squad/teammate beside him doing the same, as in... teamwork? 😄

[sly crown]

It certainly can help one make up for their own deficiencies, though I think that’s absolutely a winnable 1v1 played differently.

[broken socket]

with aim punch you only really need to get the fire going soon enough to trigger rng dice roll mode in the opps. It's not fun getting awped in CS true but that's mainly because is the one weapon that goes against the grain and can kill you with bodyshots when everything else in the game requires headshot for OHK. Like if you get Scouted you die in pretty much the same way you die to an AWP you just go "Well damn nice shot least you're not an AWP noob" also there is utility available to deal with awpers so there are ways with good teamwork to mitigate the bullshit.

the comparison would be more apt if a teammate throwing a smoke grenade up in the air temporarily blinded the opps.

[sly crown]

the low rank takes are killing me

[broken socket]

you one of those guys that mental gymnastics themselves into believing awpings harder than scouting or sumthin?

[sly crown]

lmao

[broken socket]

awpers are nubs thats just facts

[sly crown]

kekw

[frosty gull]

Why does every one of these videos start with them just missing the first shot?

[lethal compass]

I agree with the point of the ICO. Fire superiority achieved through volume of fire on the enemy should be a tactic implemented, with the outcome of preventing/hindering the enemies ability to shoot back (and in good cases preventing them from maneuvering).

In my opinion the aiming, stability and recoil mechanics of the ICO are very good at slowing down gameplay and preventing "running and gunning". However the blinding effect of the "suppression mechanic" is too strong and the fact that it can also just activate in head on gunfights make it less like a realistic suppression mechanic and more like a debuff that you apply to the enemy.

I argue that although the intended outcome is reached in certain situations, the means that it is achieved is simply frustrating and leads to unintended problems. I wholeheartedly disagree with turning into several blind soldiers as a realistic outcome. The "blind ICO fights" are frustrating for both parties involved and winning them doesn't feel satisfying due to it boiling down to who can get the lucky shot.

Another issue I've noticed with the debuff is that it is so debilitating that you cannot fire back at a flanking enemy (not the one who is suppressing you) if another enemy is firing at you from a different angle. This ruins the experience of a being fixed in position and getting flanked because it is nearly impossible to shoot the flanking enemy and gives the flanking enemy far to much leeway when they approach an enemy who is pinned down (just because they cant shoot at the person suppressing them shouldn't mean they can't shoot at the flanker).

I argue that the current implementation of ICO suppression only works for the person shooting, the person getting shot at just has to suffer from what feels like a half measure by the devs.

More responsibility/control should be given to the person being shot at (it should prevent them from shooting back because they don't want to get hit, not because the game just stops them from seeing and shooting accurately).

I want to make it clear I am not arguing that the person who is getting shot deserves to have a fair chance to get out of suppression (suppression isn't fair, and that's a good thing)

When I'm getting shot at my first thought shouldn't be "I'm blind", but instead "I'm getting shot at"

Another aspect of this topic is the respawn and revive system affecting the severity of getting shot/killed. People are willing to peak oncoming fire because they know that the medic can just revive them afterwards and they can just respawn quickly on rally if they can't be revived. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons why the current suppresion mechanic is so frustrating. It's because it is designed to outweigh the convenience of respawning (which is too convenient in my opinion).

Again, the focus of the current suppression mechanic is mainly on the act of shooting, not on getting hit and injured/dying. To me, this seems like the main obstacle regarding balancing suppression in the game. There is more to suppression than just shooting at the enemy, the enemy also plays a role (or at least they should).

The game would benefit substantially if the devs looked into rebalancing the healing and respawns which would give them more opportunities to balance the suppression (and other aspects of the games pacing and flow) instead of just full sending the focus into the shooting and nothing else (Relative to the broader scope of the game as a whole, the ICO suppression "solution" feels like performing surgery with a sledge hammer and nothing else".

[nova canopy]

definitely room for tweaking, and being blind is just a product of it being a game... I myself cannot find a substitute game mechanic that would produce the same result without being even more "distracting" or artificial. Moreover, in my experience, you can fire at the flanking enemy with often reduced capacity (small arms hitting the cover next to you do not sustain/impose so much blur, only heavier stuff does), but that doesn't mean your MB1 stops working.

In an ideal scenario, you would have your fall-back point so if it comes to the situation you are describing, you still have time to realise that there is probably a flanking element coming and you should retreat to another position that nullifies the suppressing fire and re-engage from there. Ordinary FPS logic is to get an advantageous position over your enemy either via LOS or surprise, then utilize you hand eye coordination skills to kill them and cost them ticket/teammember/whatever detriment is in place for the other team. Squad and ICO imho try to flip it around and try the opposite logic with not wanting to be removed from play instead of removing the opposing players. Thats where the respawn frequency, availability and healing speed are to the detriment, as you have said.

[lethal compass]

This is completely correct in my opinion, the strategy of using fallback points and retreating to get to better positions is valid. However I've noticed that due to the "meatgrinder" nature of most objectives (invasion I'm looking at you...) in the game and the spawn systems, fallback points are rarely used and players are usually punished for breaking contact (even though breaking contact is a really important thing to do in a firefight) because people are incentivized to fight until death and just respawn at a more convenient/relevant location.

Again, I don't see people complaining when they are the ones doing the suppressing (go figure...). Most of the issues stems from the person being suppressed just not having the opportunities or being incentivized enough to do something besides just sit and wait to die. If they fall back, then congrats you need to spend several minutes walking and running away and at that point the beneficial thing to do is to die and respawn.

That's another thing too. The objectives in the game are too constricting. It's either you're on/near an OBJ or you're useless. Why would you fallback? Where would you fallback to? It's always an OBJ.

[fleet mirage]

MGs on the bipods are twisting as hell

[nova canopy]

this is the issue, it is net beneficial to hold ground, try to kill the flankers, but if you fail, you get respawned nearby with full intel of where the enemy is... because the respawn is so near that you are realatively close to action all the time. How many times a decent SL said "suicide and respawn, we will attack the next objective" because 5-9 tickets outweight a 5-15 minute relocation that can mean a difference of whatever tickets are gained by capture. Gamemodes in squad are whack, even TC that is freeform is just a moving CQB sim. In regards to that, I have written a few solutions that are easy to implement and would remove large parts of meta, timings and whatever other gamey things there is.

[lethal compass]

🗣️ real

[lethal compass]

Yeah, but you feel so cool firing a machine gun while holding it sideways /s. Seriously though, why does every gun in SQUAD tilt to the right? Even the MP5 does this. It's really noticeable when it happens with bipods because that's when it especially shouldn't happen.

[lethal compass]

I understand being frustrated with aspects of the game but It would be more beneficial to provide feedback and perspective than calling people simps.

[nova canopy]

It is out of scope for simple minds. 🙂 I don't understand quantum physics either, but there is nothing wrong with that. We all have our place on this world.

[lethal compass]

You could literally make a Mind Map in MS Paint and post it here and it would be more productive than vaguely insulting people on Discord.

[wary radish]

What's funny is that they seem to come up with a rotating but ultimately repetitive set of "reasons" that the ICO is the absolute worst thing to ever happen and how we can expect it to kill the game any day now.

It's been that way since ICO released; just playing on loop.

[broken socket]

That's basically rotational recoil which is pretty heavy on MGs which is another way they kinda fail. Since now instead of the usual up + left/right. You're rotating the gun itself and so X and Y become diagonals making it even harder to compensate.

[broken socket]

Woah homie you can't tease us like that. You gotta give us these Arnoldio solutions to the meta. This list gon be legendary.

[lethal compass]

I wouldn't say the ICO is the worst thing that happened. I understand why it was implemented and I believe that the game is better off with the ICO providing a slower pace. I also believe that people do dislike it for a reason, and it's currently a superficial fix to problems that are mainly caused by more complicated underlying issues with the game. The game has too many problems that you won't be able to address by tweaking the current implementation of the ICO. If it was a really good solution right now, there wouldn't be this much contention around it. Other things need to change because this is just a fix, not a solution.

[thorn haven]

been a day 1 ICO bug

[fleet mirage]

I know and sadly its not the bug(

[thorn haven]

https://tenor.com/view/suicide-gif-14427950

how tf is that fun/realistic if you gun is just twisting

and dont say this is ment to make sure you work with your team

ever since ICO the quality of players are trash (but thats a completly seprete issue)

[vale elbow]

    Gunplay overall has been adjusted to create more fun, immersive, and authentic team-oriented infantry combat. The ability for a single player to affect the outcome of a firefight has been mitigated; effective communication and teamwork should overcome lone individual fighters in the majority of cases. All weapons have been adjusted and the weapons available to some factions have also been adjusted. Adjustments after release will be an ongoing effort to ensure we strike the correct balance.
    Different types of weapons and optics will now have much more meaningful trade-offs, magnified optics will not be the best choice in every situation.
    In the majority of situations, players who are in a bad position relative to the enemy are more likely to be wounded or suppressed, and less likely to be instantly killed, giving them meaningful moments to be able to react to incoming fire and making combat less punishing overall.

twisting recoil is in fact part of your mandated authentic team-oriented infantry combat

[nova canopy]

You need to sub to my OF to see it, it's 50% off atm.

[vale elbow]

how many customers for your blur fetish?

[lethal compass]

How much do we have to pay to remove the blur? From the ICO of course... Not the OF... unless😏

[merry flame]

Chat we are so back

#1261475143675547703 message

[hollow valley]

god bless [O] Daisy, Simon would be proud of her

[broken socket]

ICO removal confirmed locked in triple guarentee

it's no longer so over

[lethal compass]

can confirm, I have it on good authority trust me bro

[gilded nymph]

I can't believe casuals whined their way to another tweaking of gunplay, it is already too easy to shoot in this game after their last fix, cod kids are ruining the game once again

[quick panther]

idk man having noodle arms ,getting seizure when getting shot at and relying on RNG to win gunfights isnt good

[merry flame]

Quite the opposite crew of players that message above was to comp players.

[nova flare]

Goddamn. Now you might have to have mechanical skill again to win a gunfight. Can't just sit in a bush anymore. 😦

[formal oak]

Don't forget to imply that if you've bothered to develop even a basic level of mechanical skill you immediately have no teamwork, positioning or timing related skills lol.

[sly crown]

This change is a win for everyone. It's a compromise that will make recoil patterns feel better without compromising the overall goal of ICO in extending firefights at range.

The recoil is still beastly while simply being somewhat nicer to be on the receiving end of, and able to control just a touch better. It's not turning anyone into lasers.

Give it a try before you panic about the skill ceiling falling, chicken little

[vale elbow]

i can't wait for the COD omni-movement integration

[vale elbow]

gunplay's still terrible back to regularly scheduled whining

[vocal orbit]

Huge OWI W

Canadian resistance is pretty based too

[lucid pivot]

We are so back

[tranquil basin]

Sounds cool, I wish they could be available on more maps than goose and manic.

At kits are getting some love too by the looks of it.

[lethal compass]

we are so back baby

[tranquil basin]

This is really good, makes things less clunky and annoying.

[lethal compass]

anything that helps keep armor players from lone wolfing is much appreciated

just tested it and it feels great

[lost kindle]

go f yourself mr.ragebaiter

[lethal compass]

we need things to complain about though. We can't be happy that OWI listened to the community

[lost kindle]

Love when this complainers appears instantly after ico changes announcements, i remember this type of comment since 8.2 been dropped, another low skill beer enjoyer complained that he was killed every time so he needs start raising his skill to play successfully

And the thing is they are appears only once on this themes, they actually don't give a f about game, they play twice a month but still come here to tell that "those cod/bf kids" ruining they favourite (w 2 hours at 2 weeks) game

[tranquil basin]

I mean some of these people that said squad would be their main game after ico didn't play more after ico. They play every day, but it's not squad which is ironic.

[lethal compass]

They're not playing video games, they're gambling at casinos. That's the type of person that thinks head on gunfights should come down to luck and who can sit in the same spot the longest. In other words, a gambler.

[lost kindle]

These people didn't play at all, they run game two times at months to show their 8 5 8 score against people who actually love and play this game. And they know, if gunplay will be better, they will start to suck more

[tranquil basin]

There are 2 types of active players that love ico, vic players and mortar players. Vic players likes ico because it turned them to gods.

[lost kindle]

And i wrote optimistic result. Casualy they show us 3 5 2

[tranquil basin]

They actually go 0/1/25

During the round they brag about all their kills.

[lost kindle]

I enjoy play squad at inf and kill enemies. Still play, but flinch fights rng point fire and infinite ads time frustrate me every time. Even if i didn't play a couple days and played other games

[lethal compass]

That's why this makes me so happy, I hope they keep making changes that force vehicle players to stick with infantry rather than fight on some irrelevant part of the map

[tranquil basin]

I just switch to knife and stab.

[elfin sinew]

So now we just need fixes to:

• ADS
• PiP scopes
• stamina
• suppression
• RAAS layers
• ticket count
• vic balance
• "map" aka armor voting
• tracked logis
  To make the game as good as it already has been years ago.

[frosty gull]

Stop fighting against the mechanic and it won't bother you.
If you treat it as something to get frustrated about then you'll always be frustrated by it.

[elfin sinew]

So even now that fixes are coming in you still trying to gaslight people telling them there is no problem?

[frosty gull]

I said their were problems before.

[elfin sinew]

You need to stop telling people they are incorrect for not enjoying jank

[frosty gull]

I didn't say he was incorrect, I said his approach means it'll always "feel bad."

[elfin sinew]

it feels bad because its jank. Nothing to do with attitude. How are you still on here daily trying to gaslight?

[frosty gull]

It has everything to do with attitude.

[elfin sinew]

Maybe if you dont enjoy eating pizza you could just go to a burger spot instead of trying to convince yourself its not so bad.

[frosty gull]

Yes.
That is one way to approach it.

The other is not to treat the pizza as an incorrectly-made hamburger.

[elfin sinew]

When your pizza place stop using tomato sauce and uses sewage you stop buying.
Thats about as far as the analogy should stretch.

Going around telling people they are incorrect for not enjoying what this game as turned into is futile.

[frosty gull]

It's your analogy.
And it's literally "go play COD"

Or BF6.

[elfin sinew]

Anyone who compares Squad pre-ICO to CoD is instantly revealed to be clueless

worst take ever

cant believe you spent literally 100s of hours debating on here and thats all you got

[frosty gull]

I'm not comparing them, that's just what people say.

My opinion has always been, play Squad if you want to like it, play something else if you don't.

[elfin sinew]

For someone who wants to suppress peoples's feedback and call it irrelevant or invalid you spend a lot of time in feedback threads

Does OWI pay you for this? Your post history is something to behold

[frosty gull]

Me replying doesn't suppress your feedback rofl.

[elfin sinew]

You cant see how your omnipresence in every thread attacking every single critical opinion could possibly be perceived as discouraging that discussion?

In a Discord with tens of thousands of users there are always extreme outliers. You are that.

[frosty gull]

If someone disagreeing with an opinion discourages someone from expressing it that's....just the nature of discussion.
Kids these days weak af.

"I can't say apple juice is great because Billy thinks it sucks and says it."

[elfin sinew]

Either you are coping or you really are unaware just of much of a zealot you are

Take a break from this App for a month, cant hurt your mental

[frosty gull]

I realize I have an opinion, but we are discussing a computer game man. It ain't that serious to care about how my communication affects others.

[elfin sinew]

If you enter every single thread ever posted and post more than anyone else you effectively moderate conversation to a degree.
Even if its just fatigue. Something I experience myself.
Topic important to me, interesting discussion between users, without fail you in there telling people they are wrong and should not criticize to begin with and just give up on the game they used to like and their communities are based around to go play something else.

I personally have experienced you as a major negative contribution to the discussions on this platform.

[frosty gull]

"I personally have experienced you as a major negative contribution to the discussions on this platform."

Why?

I only disagree with you.

What specifically bothers you?

[elfin sinew]

For the reasons explained in detail. Its genuine feedback. From one human to another.
Take on it board or not. Your choice. I am fatigued again. Have a nice weekend.

[frosty gull]

Are you sure its me and what I do?
Or is it that general feeling where you're not winning at something, and it feels bad, and you get tired?

[elfin sinew]

Imagine trying to gaslight me into thinking I have not "won" every single conversation we ever had but I think its revealing about how you see what you are doing here. I hope you are still in a place mentally where you can reflect about that.
That being said I did say I would want to end your discussion here. Can you not accept that? Would it be too much to ask for you to also say something nice and move on? Maybe... anyway. Ill go do something else now. Im sure youll find something else to tell they are experiencing their own feelings incorrectly.

[frosty gull]

If you're winning then why do you feel fatigued?
We're just typing.

[elfin sinew]

You are draining. Dealing with you is a chore. That is fatiguing. take care now

[frosty gull]

I don't doubt you feel fatigued/drained/tired.

PS you deffo lost every convo about player counts lmao

[lost kindle]

Wdym by that? You wanna me stop playing or what? I still like how teamwork w skillful mates works in this game, still like bullet impact and game atmosphere. And w that i still don't like some game parts so why should I come to terms with that?

That's "not like - don't play" is suck, coz i am like, but not all of that

So that's literally a stupid take in argument

[frosty gull]

Treat the various mechanics as a natural part of the game, like dying when you hit 0 HP.
You don't enjoy (or aren't intended to) enjoy the experience, but work around it.

You know what happens if you take a point blank range firefight, so set yourself up to win it, or avoid it.

Sometimes you can't do those things, but like dying, just roll with it.

[lost kindle]

When devs literally collecting FEEDBACK where you can suggest about things you like or dislike there's a big reason to say what you like in product and what you don't

[frosty gull]

What?

[lost kindle]

There's literally soy boy point "either you like it or don't whine about it"

[frosty gull]

I said neither, I said, "to have this experience not be frustrating do these things."

[lost kindle]

Why should i roll w that if devs change stuff depending on feedback? So there's a reason to suggest what you want

[frosty gull]

To enjoy gameplay more.
To not be frustrated.

[lost kindle]

I will enjoy more when bad stuff (on my point) get fixed like in 8.2.

And it maked me less frustrated about gunfight

[frosty gull]

Like I'm talking in-game, you can do w/e outside of it. But if you're gonna be playing you might as well enjoy it, rather than be miserable to prove a point to yourself.

[lost kindle]

8.2 was freaking great

[frosty gull]

GE is way better than 8.2 in that regard.

[lost kindle]

If I'm wrote "frustrating" it not means that i force myself to play in game. It means that some stuff which brings to my eyes i dont like. Not all game. And its stupid that i should accept all game even if part of it sucks. That's not how things work

[lost kindle]

Mod servers are full of shit

[frosty gull]

"It means that some stuff which brings to my eyes i dont like. Not all game. And its stupid that i should accept all game even if part of it sucks. That's not how things work"

You don't have to roll with the mechanics, but if you don't want to become frustrated while playing, you kind of have to. Even if you don't like it specifically, because you're not going overpower a game mechanic.

[lost kindle]

Imagine you use some random service and in exact day service become bad in some aspect and you know that your feedback can fix that problem. So in your picture of the world you should just roll w problems (which you can fix w feedback) that you won't be frustrated. If you are an adult you should get that that point is infantile and stupid coz you accept frustrating thing when you can fix it by your feedback

[lost kindle]

@frosty gull

[frosty gull]

Feedback out of game, and rolling with the mechanics in-game are two different things.

Just being miserable isn't "feedback."

[lost kindle]

How are these different things if i literally giving feedback about in-game mechanics that are fixed from time to time by this feedback?

[elfin sinew]

You are giving feedback outside the game in the correct place. He introduced the idea of being miserable. There is no arguing with that guy. Just leave it and maybe it will invite others with interesting things to post to actually participate.

[frosty gull]

They're different in the sense that one is you telling the devs you don't like something, the other is you playing the game.
You can say, "I don't like this," while also doing things to make sure it doesn't hurt your in-game experience.

[lost kindle]

We literally got 8.2 update that consists of ico threads points. W exact wording

[elfin sinew]

Obviously the devs have heard and are making changes to recoil now. This has been confirmed and you can test it tonight in a public playtest.
Lets see what other aspects of the ICO can be improved next to make the game even better.

[teal hornet]

Don't say that :(. It's true for GE but not for all mod. Give us a chance to shine 🙁

[lost kindle]

Are you literally so dumb or you trolling

[frosty gull]

They certainly didn't cover all the ICO thread points, given that the parts everyone agreed on weren't touched (MG recoil, AT aiming).

[lost kindle]

You don't get that i can continue playing when part of stuff i don't like

Idk what should i say to you

[frosty gull]

I do get that, but you're frustrated by it, and don't have to be.

[lost kindle]

That you'll be get that point

[lost kindle]

Why dont?

Different people can be frustrated by different stuff isn't it?

[frosty gull]

You can, but the mechanics, post-8.2, are lightweight.

[lost kindle]

For example some guy likes blur suppression effect but i don't, i like tunnel vision + vinniete. So why should i accept thing that i don't like

[lost kindle]

It's only your point lol

[teal hornet]

This

[lost kindle]

If it was that that there s be no new ico changes in ue5

[frosty gull]

Because it makes the game more enjoyable if you do, rather than trying to figure out a way to beat down the mechanic in-game.

[frosty gull]

Mechanics can be made even more lightweight.
Like you could have GZW/GB-type recoil lmao.

[elfin sinew]

Its okay to acknowledge that you feel frustration. Life is not about avoiding friction by pursuing complacency.

[lost kindle]

Bro, you don't get. Stuff that frustrated me don't make game less enjoyable at ALL for me. Just in these concrete things

[frosty gull]

Oh if it doesn't hurt your enjoyment then that's fine.

[lost kindle]

Exact

We understand each other after 20 minutes argue

50% of argues in ico threads starts w misunderstanding wording of point. Guys can literally argue about thing they totally agree coz one guy can't get second guy's words

[vocal orbit]

The fact nobody is seeding a supermod server is criminal. You guys did a great job.

[teal hornet]

Sometimes effort doesn't pay ^^. We will see after UE5

[elfin sinew]

There are a lot of things I really like about SPM but I must say that everyone being in multicam, all the suppressors and night maps make target identification quite painful for me

[teal hornet]

That's just 15% of the content inside spm. Not our fault if player just vote for that

[elfin sinew]

I think it is popular because it is so very different from normal Squad

makes sense

[vocal orbit]

Its invasion only so all the battlefield refugees can just play cod on point and forget about the larger strategy.

[formal oak]

Holy crap I just loaded in after a month or two of swearing off the game I spent so much time on, what a mess. Sorry but the infantry experience is awful, you move like you are carrying 150 pounds and the weapon handling is, I honestly don't know how to describe it, your reload is nearly as fast as shouldering your weapon, and your reload ain't fast. WTF. What a mess. Just accept you can't code out people being too lazy to have situational awareness, use cover, angles and positioning, actual tactics and solid execution and stop pretending that blob incompetence is teamwork. Seriously what a shame.

[hollow valley]

Worry not friend. Owi just came up with an update focusing on this exact issue.

P.S update didn’t change shit.

[frosty gull]

But it did change things though. Recoil and AT stability.

[vocal orbit]

wow i got excited too soon, mg's still feel terrible. get rid of that horizontal back and forth recoil owi *maybe its just m240b, pkp feels better

that more than anything is what makes mg's useless

scopes and semi feel a lot better tho, at least in training.

[vocal orbit]

the issue with the horizontal recoil isnt that theres horizontal recoil, its that youll take one shot itll send aim to the left, and the next shot will send it to the complete opposite side. just make it go vaguely in a direction. Controlling 2 directions is something that isnt easy but is doable. Controlling a third direction just makes it chaos

[vocal orbit]

also hipfire is still useless

[vale elbow]

recoil misalignment is designed to subtract control, consistent directional recoil is not in the spirit of ICO. they want the player who has 5 hours a week to have parity with the player that has 30 hours a week to play the game

still firmly in anti-player territory and that won't be changing

[vocal orbit]

yeah im pretty let down

[lost kindle]

Idk why owi so scare make mgs good. Pre ico skilled mgs were not a problem, a minority of mg players shown insane stats in that time. So w fact that mg role have no pros except possible (if they will be made playable again) fire power and number of cons (low mobility, low shoot ready time when you on foot) i see 0 reasons to make bipoded mg's way worse than ar's

[frosty gull]

It isn't fear of what they'll do, its because they want the various types of weapons to have clearly delineated roles.

[fleet mirage]

You can get 1 or 2 MGs per team
And they will cover only their sector or field so this is not OP role at all
And that's the strangest decision to hammer them into the dirt

MG role gameplay
Pretty enjoyable tbf

They are still shit even after 6th PT tweaks

[zealous anvil]

Someone pls make this a gif

[lost kindle]

Now mg have role of useless kit tbh

[sturdy hearth]

Suppression in the playtest is still cancer ..... 10 sec no visual ( but when u look throw ur scope there is no suppression ) . If Bellum or Battelfield will not completly fuck up this will be the nail in the coffin

[vocal orbit]

Mg's clearly defined trait is missing shots

[sly crown]

This time it will be dead, for real!

You guys are straight up theater kids when it comes to the drama you invent when upset about ICO shit

[vale elbow]

mike is a passionate gamer that likes coffins a bit too much

[tranquil basin]

Bf6 looked good, but it doesn't have the same type of comms as squad does. Bellum might be closer to squad, but it will have a different game mode. I am sure alot of squad players will try those games out and I hope both are good.

[vale elbow]

bellum will fall flat from being a niche without proper distribution, not being on steam and opting for their own store is one of the decisions of all time

[vocal orbit]

yeah the role system feels too arma rp for the gamemodes they want

[maiden citrus]

the only battlegroups that should be forced into tracked logis should be mechanized and armored. every other battlegroup should default to truck logis

[hollow valley]

Dear OWI after testing your new gunpaly "improvements" i've come to the conclusion that you are a BUNCH OF RETARDS.

much love!

[vale elbow]

constructive i like it

[hollow valley]

of course alway with this peop;e

"peolpe"

100% fuzzheead and company got dropped at birth

[sly crown]

lol, lmao even

[maiden citrus]

also while we're at it, fix the scope-in lag

lost too many gunfights because game freezes for a second while i try to aim down sights

[sly crown]

Eh, MGs were very strong preICO in the right hands, because the mobility was not significantly impacted while the damage and ammo were increased.

I still think they’re in a really shitty state in live Squad, but I also understand a little of the reluctance they might have and also don’t want them to really be oppressive

[true island]

Dont want to pull a siege and make them 199rnd assault rifles because you nerfed gunplay so bad

[sly crown]

They definitely need some advantage over a rifle, beyond ammo capacity, but before it was close to plain better and now it is close to plain worse.

I really want to see it just be situationally useful

[vocal orbit]

the downside for mg was always that you needed to bipod to be effective since no semi and heavy standing recoil past like 25 - 50 yards

[frosty gull]

This is the result of incongruent points in the game's design.
They want MGs to have the effects of crew-served weapons in squads, but also don't want to model the actual downsides of crew-served weapons in squads. So they have to keep trying to tune the abstraction into something that looks/feels real and is effective, without actually representing what that effectiveness is based on.

[sly crown]

In ICO, yes. PreICO, no.

100m unsupported with an MG was doable preICO

[frosty gull]

When you decide that you want player movement/stamina to remain a constant, despite the weapon carried, and not really represent how unwieldy they are, then its hard to not make MGs strictly better than rifles without giving them some other malus.

[vocal orbit]

pre ico yea, cause that slower reaction time always put you at a disadvantage to your normal rifle. 100 yd isnt that long range, or at least wasnt. id be fine with them making standing burst less controllable than pre ico but you need to be able to possiby hit someone across the street unpodded

but once the pod was out higher sustained accuracy was the pro

[sly crown]

I would simply advocate to shift the effect of recoil on aim more towards sway.

I think that MGs should be viable stationary and unsupported

so I’d personally say reduce recoil muzzle lift especially, increase the minimum sway amount

Long range shots should be difficult with the higher base sway

But stopped and settled you should be able to engage reasonably up to 100m or more

[vocal orbit]

sway should be very low bipodded imo mgs should be able to hit 500 yd shots but standing yeah higher sway, lower recoil

[sly crown]

Yea I agree, bipods remove sway so it would be a buff when reducing recoil and increasing sway

[vale elbow]

recoil misalignment needs to disappear, you'll resolve the bulk of the MG problem overnight and overall improve the gunplay significantly

[sly crown]

Its already removed

[vale elbow]

no it isn't

[sly crown]

MG is not solved by that problem

Yes it is

[vale elbow]

it isn't

[vocal orbit]

on some guns yeah

[sly crown]

Brother go ready the playtest changelog

Or try it yourself

[vale elbow]

i'd ask bill to explain this but he's gone

[vocal orbit]

most the mg's still have 8.2 misalignment

marine m240 for example

[vale elbow]

you're mistaking a reduction in the maximum misalignment for the removal of misalignment

[vocal orbit]

some misalignment makes the gunplay feel more fluid

[sly crown]

It’s effectively removed when it no longer impacts occlusion, pedantic

Again its not the sole or primary problem

[vale elbow]

while it's no longer at abominable levels misalignment remains the largest issue for gunplay, especially for MG kits where you cannot have fine control of the ROF with single fire

[sly crown]

I think that’s hilariously misinformed

Recoil misalignment is a much bigger factor for the other weapon types far more than it is for MG

As evidenced by how bad they still are after this change

[vale elbow]

it's a big factor for all weapon types, hence why i said it's the largest issue for gunplay overall

[sly crown]

The sway changes had a much more notable effect on its usage within 100m

Talking about MGs keep up

[vale elbow]

lmao okay

[sly crown]

I mean you know the subject

So why pretend you were really just talking about in general

[vale elbow]

if only my first message had spoken to overall gunplay, wouldn't that make sense

[sly crown]

If only you wouldn’t ignore the first part of your own message

[vale elbow]

at least some progress was made, we've gone form recoil misalignment was totally removed to at least acknowledging it's still existing and is a problem

[sly crown]

You made the argument that MG problems were core to recoil misalignment

Don’t act shocked when I call you out on it just say my bad or something lil bro

It’s not a problem lol

[vale elbow]

what is this gotcha moment you think you have

[sly crown]

It was never the problem with MGs

Hence why the reduction made every other weapon feel good and MGs are still dumpster

You don’t gotta pretend like you won because I totally misinterpreted you when literally my point is made by the only part of your comment that fits in the reply preview

[vale elbow]

it objectively is, bill literally posted a whole breakdown of ICO weapon values proving recoil misalignment was a huge impact on the usability of MG kits. a shame i can't search for it

[sly crown]

Bill isn’t a reliable source for anything but unpacking the SDK

His logic and argumentation is abysmal

He’s no scientist, despite his namesake

The proof is in the playtest pudding, recoil misalignment was reduced and standardized and MGs are not improved

[vale elbow]

MGs are not improved enough

[sly crown]

They are not improved by the recoil changes

The sway changes had a much more profound effect on their usability at shorter ranges

Their long range usability remains abysmal

[vale elbow]

the continued existence of a misalignment mechanic that scales, i think exponentially with ROF, will always have that result. the more you shoot the more your recoil misaligns and jumps from side to side, it is explicitly designed as a speed limiting

[sly crown]

The issue begins with round 2

It's not alignment that is a problem, and magdumping with an MG isn't what we want to reward anyway

The problem is that with ICO their sway and recoil was greatly increased in attempt to make them basically only usable while bipodded, but the problem is that bipods effectively remove sway and remove muzzle lift. MOA and recoil impulse shifting aim still applies.

You can test it yourself, either version of Squad. Enable DebugToggleShowHitreg 1 in console, go put yourself 300m from a building and aim at features on it.

Even 3 round bursts are extremely inaccurate; only the first round will hit within 3m of your target most of the time

[vale elbow]

sight misalignment yes, recoil misalignment no. and there really needs to be an emphasis on some

[sly crown]

Good luck hitting someone in a window, you'll be whizzing rounds entirely past the building.

[vale elbow]

right so a player debuff that scales with ROF is bad

and when ROF is the point, as it is with MG kits and burst-fire weapons it goes to complete shit

[sly crown]

brother

you do realize

MGs have the lowest ROF

??????

[vale elbow]

4RPSish is where recoil (misalignment/horizontal shifting) begins to near max, on single-fire rifles like an M4 or AK this is easily manageable though i say still in a very poor place. when you go to MG kits without fire select you will break this overly low speed limit very quickly, it's why many players anecdotally say they fire or 3-4 round bursts with MG kits

[sly crown]

oh boy

yeah isn't it weird how not using automatic fire is more controllable than automatic

ground breaking research

here's a eureka moment for you

assault rifles are more controllable on full auto than MGs

despite a much higher rate of fire

how do you rationalize this

[vale elbow]

you're taking about in squad?

[sly crown]

🤦🏻‍♂️

[vale elbow]

i need to clarify with you

[sly crown]

of course I'm talking about in squad

why would that ever have been a contention

[vale elbow]

great

the rationalisation is easy, OWI want MGs to be worse at fighting infantry than regular assault rifles. the whole "each kit has it's role" approach

i definitely do not agree with it but they've decided to go deeper in to arbitrary categorisation and performance

an M4 and a saw will have similar if not favourable recoil control for the SAW given the weight, the saw would have more sway and slower ADS time also due to the weight difference (i believe this was the case pre-ICO). OWI don't really care about dividing characteristic differences based on physics, they prefer this gun kills, this gun blurs, this guns shoots from 300m away type of balance

i really don't know why they didn't opt for separate arm stamina to better differentiate of each weapon type, instead we have this mess

[sly crown]

oh boy

"the rationalization is easy"
completely avoids the question

[vale elbow]

if you want it in pure mechanics MG kits have higher misalignment values than rifles

or you can continue the condescending behaviour and go nowhere, it's your choice

[lost kindle]

They were strong in a strong hands only. Avg pub player didn't make such an impact

[vale elbow]

it may actually be misalignment based on calibre/weapon blueprint family i can't remember, so an M4 and a SAW may have the same misalignment curve but the saw can only be used in full auto iirc so less control of how that value spikes

[sly crown]

Sure, but avg pub players don't make an impact regardless.

It's not like you needed to be a sage of the MG specifically, if you were good at the game you were probably even better at it with an MG a lot of the time

[vale elbow]

came down to playstyle, some like being more passive so the kit suited

[sly crown]

You didn't have to play passive with preICO mgs

[vale elbow]

not what i said

[sly crown]

its like chatting with an AI

[vale elbow]

rifleman got grenades and a more responsive weapon, this suits more aggressive and proactive players. pre-ICO MG was a menace when bipoded, so it suits slower and more patient players

if MGs were this always superior option pre-ICO then they would have been everywhere in comp and they weren't, it was largely MMG kits being used to hold lanes on maps like narva and chora

red dot saw slapped on sumari invasion though, what fun times they were

[sly crown]

MGs were commonplace in preICO comp

I would certainly agree that the competitive edge of the rifles showed stronger in an environment with faster reaction times

[vocal orbit]

95% of players arent even going to be introduced to comp though, functionally its better to assume the lowest common denominators experience. most the time they arent going to run into an mg player getting 40 kills in raas.

Making mg's as good as they were pre ico wont make the game a hellscape of habs getting farmed any more than armor already does or whatever owi is so worried about.

[sly crown]

Well I totally agree, fixating on competitive scene as an argument as to why MGs were not good preICO was a bad argument on his behalf

However, it's not like the exact thing you are talking about re: mg player getting 40 kills in raas is not seen. Same thing happens with competent vic crews on pub servers.

It was certainly more viable on certain maps, like Kohat was MG dream compared to Sumari, sure

[vocal orbit]

god i miss the 600m gpmg firefights on kohat

that was the golden age of squad

[vale elbow]

godo thing i never argued that

[sly crown]

uh huh

[vale elbow]

but they're longer now and more teamwork, right?

[vocal orbit]

if you have the patience to keep it up a single kohat gpmg firefight could last all game theoretically unless someone gets lucky and actually ends up hitting the other.

[vale elbow]

sounds like a lot of teamwork opportunities to me

MGs (and all gunplay) being shit starts and ends with OWI's philosophy and it isn't going to change, that's the core of it

[tranquil basin]

Yeah I forgot that they chose not to be on steam

[brave bay]

As an MG Gunner on squad, Its certaintly more difficult post ICO to rack up 30 kills (unless i find a hab full of targets) but getting people suppressed if anything is easier now on public servers, Since they are unable to just pop out and clock me in the head while im raining death above their heads. There is a serious skill issue with a lot of people claiming that the MG is unusable, Its only unusable in the Pre ICO Killstreak mode that it was

[tranquil basin]

Pre ico, some of the best mgs had over 40 kills almost every round. The highest I've seen was over 80 kills. Those players either stopped playing completely or they switched to other kits.

[thorn haven]

what makes MG roles even worse and bipod roles in general is that if you prone and bipod on the ground you cannot see ass in front of you cause of the grass, making it so you have to find an open area where you can easily get shot to use the MG

i think a fix would be to create grass that reacts to your movement so you can move around and push down the grass down so you would still be in grass but be able to see the enemy more clearly

[thorn haven]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/917488078967435354/1401535121303015547/a22lbh.gif

[thorn haven]

and remove that tilt recoil mechanic when you shoot it start tilting, its more visible when you mag dumping

[zealous anvil]

[vale elbow]

one day they'll realise MGs have too many tracer rounds, i think they've tried to address the hollywood muzzle flash in the latest PT

[tranquil basin]

They will probably take baby steps to adress these issues as well. 😄

[vale elbow]

there are a lot of problems to solve, if it's all baby steps they'll barely make progress in another decade

[vocal orbit]

Youre raining blur in a small frustrum for 2 seconds until someone outside that frustrum takes you up on the free kill that you are. The MG is more effective at giving away your position than suppressing.

[vocal orbit]

Its frustrating the contrast of pace between 6.0 and these new gunplay changes.

[next frost]

Most MGs are actually pretty usable with the new gunplay

[sly crown]

They are more usable at shorter ranges and unbipoded, but aren’t really much improved as far as their long range performance goes.

[wraith lantern]

The problem with this line of thinking is that if sway we're a big problem. Hold breath butchers sway. Like it reduces it by such a large degree, so even the larger amounts of sway MGs have which is substantial would be reduced to a meaningful level. The recoil changes were impactful true, but even so. The M4 and M249 are actually relatively close in recoil stats, M249 does have more horizontal which hampers it slightly, but in bipod form the 249 has actually pretty good recoil stats. So what you're referring to as recoil impulse shifting aim, is what Conors calling alignment recoil, since that's what OWI calls it. So how it works is basically firstly there's a curve that kind of smooths the change per shot, so there's a few curves they have for different weapon archetypes that make it more or less jarring. Then there's the amount of misalingment possible per shot, and the angle limits that it can't go past. So it's actually fairly quick only a few shots to hit the maximum and then you basically have a stranger version of MOA being applied to the gun in full auto. So for a quick example with a gun like the m249 at roughly 50m we'd expect it's natural MOA of 6 to have an inaccuracy cone of (6x2.54 = 15.24 x 50/91.44) for an 8.3cm diameter grouping of shots. Which is pretty small and replicated in what we see in game if we turn everything except MOA off. In comparison here is what happens when you turn everything but alignment recoil off.

[sly crown]

That's a lot of words to not understand what I said

The recoil impulse I describe is not the same thing as recoil misaligning sights

You can observe similar recoil patterns between UE4 and the current playtest build despite the standardization and reduction of recoil sight misalignment

[wraith lantern]

What specifically are you describing?

Because from my POV current playtest seems like they scaled down alignment caps and smoothed the curves.

Least seems that way from weapon behaviour

[sly crown]

I am describing recoil effects other than scope misalignment.

[wraith lantern]

so just the base recoil system?

[sly crown]

Indeed.

The scope misalignment reduction is great for usability

Certainly

but it has basically had no effect on the MGs longer range capabilities

[wraith lantern]

I don't think any one thing is responsible for all sure recoil is obviously going to change the equation but recoil misalignment is also pretty up there in terms of hampering any fire that goes past like round 4

[sly crown]

Sure, problem is that MGs aren't even good in 3 round bursts.

The misalignment effects on mag dumps is literally not even relevant tbh

I don't care nor do I think we should care about the usability of complete dumps

[wraith lantern]

yeah but that's not just misalignment from mag dumps it doesn't scale up to that level at like bullet .50 after bullet 3 of 4 you're already at max misalign

[sly crown]

Again

It does not matter

[wraith lantern]

I think somethings thats roughly 3-4 times the scale of inaccuracy than the built in MOA is definitely an issue like connor suggests

[sly crown]

genuinely doesn't matter at all

[wraith lantern]

It also effects accuracy

even if MGs had 0 recoil if they had recoil misalignment that caused shots to go wide by 10m that'd still be kinda rough

[sly crown]

I cannot emphasize to you

how little that matters

when the base recoil is as high as it is, not even your second round is relevant

go turn on hit impacts

put yourself 300m from a building like the wood shack on the hill on jensens range

burst the window 3rd only

check how many rounds land in your entire mag even close enough to incur suppression

I have done it before so I can tell you that basically only the first round of each burst hits within that radius consistently

[wraith lantern]

Ok wait so how is this solely an MG problem then?

[sly crown]

How do you not understand how this isn't uniquely a problem with the MG, a kit designed to be used stationary and excel at long ranges?

[wraith lantern]

so whats your solution, back to 0 recoil bipods?

[sly crown]

Negative, if you read my previous comments you can see what my solution was. I will reiterate for you

I am in a game so give me some time

[brave bay]

If your not runnign with your squad then thats YOUR problem, its in the name of the fucking game lol

I swear 90% of the complaints about the MG class are from people who dont understand the role of the MG class

[sly crown]

My thinking is to increase the minimum amount of sway while reducing recoil overall. My logic here is that the weight of these MG platforms makes them difficult to hold steady in an unsupported position, but that same weight should result in less muzzle lift than depicted in this and many other games. This should make them usable unsupported (which I believe is a requirement with how bad bipods are currently) though requiring some significant time to stabilize, to limit their mobility and encourage them to fight alongside more mobile rifleman counterparts to give them that space to set up. Ideally they should be able to effectively engage targets within 150m, and this means that muzzle lift cannot be so strong as to lift them to the sky, but they should still require extended bursts to actually kill targets at these ranges. Their rifleman counterparts should remain more accurate.

[brave bay]

Why dont they complain that the sniper is shit in CQB?

Or that the RPG7 is dangerous for clearing rooms

[sly crown]

This in turn makes bipoding stronger, as the sway, which is now the primary thing limiting them, is removed, and the recoil is low enough that they can effectively engage out to much longer ranges, which is finally a good tradeoff for how limiting bipods are.

I don't want lasers, there's certainly an art to getting things right, but I think this is the direction I would prefer them to explore so that they can have some effective use in moderate range engagements, and allow bipoding to still shine at extended ranges, as is their role IRL.

[brave bay]

MGs needs to be... less accruate, my gripe is more with the AR's and how inaccurate they are

THe AR is the IRL question of how to solve the issue of a bigger calibre, fully automatic belt fed weapon being effective on the move

So it makes sense that the AR be superior ingame to the MMG

However the MMG should be a lot more stable with deployed

but im happy for it to be fucking useless beyond 10M when fired from the hip

And lets be honest, Because a lot of people dont understand the role of the MMG, they dont use the MMG properly, then complain how shit it is

Ive used pre ico and post ico mgs regularly, its my goto weapon, For suppression, Post ICO is far superior

[vocal orbit]

Brother being next to some blueberrys isnt gonna stop someone in a bush 200m away from doming you. Even worse youre giving your buddy away and are going to get him killed too.

[brave bay]

And that role is soley designed for suppresion

[brave bay]

Thats A) Public server issues and B) again the weapon is a SQUAD level weapon, not a 2 man buddy team weapon

You should be sitting set up on a target while your team assaults it

Then provide suppresing fire so they can kill everyone inside

You should end the game with lots of incaps but not many kills

[vocal orbit]

Ok lemme know what server you play on so you can tell me where all the grass guppies are using your esp config edits so i can sit around wasting ammo hitting nothing

[brave bay]

That is the MG class

Again you seem to fail to undestand

You hitting nothing is FINE

Its the fear of the bullet hitting you that causes someone to be suppresed

Thats why have 100 rounds belts = people suppresed

[vocal orbit]

What causes suppression?

[brave bay]

Fear

[vocal orbit]

What causes fear

[brave bay]

Danger

Anything else?

[vocal orbit]

If there is no danger of getting hit then how is there any fear, and therefore suppression

[brave bay]

yes there is

Just because you cant aim, doesnt mean its broken

I get kills with the MG daily

I just dont get 40+ kills anymore

BEcause i was never meant to

That was a bug

it was fixed in ICO

[vocal orbit]

This is the patrick meme. 40 kills was a result of the weapon being portrayed authentically. MGs kill. And because mg's kill they suppress. If mg doesnt kill, no suppression

[sly crown]

MGs in preICO were largely more competent in a larger variety of situations which was the problem.

[wraith lantern]

Ok so mgs already have larger sway than rifles so just an across the board recoil nerf in prone and bipod. Copy that. Not against it since MGs basically the one weapon that doesnt have a semi, and tbh if it did it'd kinda invalidate the point.

[sly crown]

recoil reduction, buff, but yes

Specifically my suggestion is not to just increase sway btw

just the minimum amount of sway; as in, when you're fully stabilized

right now you can fire one accurate shot fully stabilized and breath held. I think it should have more minimum sway so that it's hard to be accurate, your goal instead is to just saturate

[wraith lantern]

minsways for prone is at somethin like 4-5x a rifle

and crouch and standing are megahigh

[sly crown]

I would not call unsupported position "megahigh"

You can still get nearly pinpoint at full stabilization up to 150m crouched or standing with hold breath

I will say that I think prone is fine, should stay how it is because I want it to be controllable without having to use janky bipods

[wraith lantern]

their minsway values of crouch and prone in comparison to rifles are like 14/16 compared to 0.9/1.3

minsway is basically stationary sway without modifiers

sorry crouch and standing

prone is decent at 1.25

[sly crown]

Yes, I understand the numbers, but 4 times 1 is still only 4

it's not that significant

[wraith lantern]

?

[sly crown]

you're comparing the raw numbers but not looking at the result

let me show you

[wraith lantern]

the results based off the numbers

[sly crown]

gg nvidia hates me

go into jensens brother

pick up an mg, wait for full stab, look at the sway

it's manageable within 150m easily to land single taps

standing with hold breath is by far enough to bring sway down to manageable levels

[wraith lantern]

yeah because like i said hold breath is sicko mode

[sly crown]

i mean again just crouch

same thing

the sway might be 4x rifles but 4x pinpoint accuracy isn't that bad

So yes, increase that minimum sway further

but reduce recoil such that you may not be accurate but you can saturate the area effectively within 150m, so like a 5-10 round burst can reliably kill a standing target instead of sending your aimpoint to the sky

particularly regarding muzzle lift effects

Goal being to limit its mobility while allowing it to be effective when stabilized within short distances, and making it viable to use without bipods especially in prone position with full stabilization

[frosty gull]

It won't suppress even if it hits and kills people, because we are playing a computer game and the response to having your dome cored out by a 7.62mm round is mild annoyance/frustration at best, instead of clinical death.

[sly crown]

Suppression is barely even a factor unless its bipoded within 150m

[frosty gull]

Yeah.

[sly crown]

It’s simply not controllable enough to land rounds in suppression radius

It needs to be accurate enough to kill exposed targets, and enough to seriously suppress targets in cover

[frosty gull]

But for better and for worse, we're kinda stuck with enchanted weapons, to cover the lack of versimillitude in other areas of the design.

[frosty gull]

I'd be ok with the full-on MG's thing being suppression and more damage, via giving it the BR damage profile, but extend the 1-hit knocks to 200 meters along with a bleed profile to match that scale.

[brave bay]

For me i just want the Bipoded MMG's to be more accurate

I dont really care if there inaccurate beyond 10M when unsupported

[sly crown]

Bipods are fundamentally broken which is why I think any balance that relies on them is also busted

[brave bay]

But if im on a bipod, i want that fucker to be a leaser

laser*

[sly crown]

Unsupported must be capable of being effective for MGs to ever make sense with how bipod works

If we had proper weapon bracing my tune could change, but these bipods are very bad

[brave bay]

yeah they are pretty bad

Though improved on the OPT build

But i get it for game balance

[sly crown]

Bipods haven’t changed at all

[brave bay]

Unsupported MG fire has

[sly crown]

Oh I mean yeah the sway changes made it somewhat usable in shorter ranges

[brave bay]

And being somewhat usueable at short range is what i wanted

Aka if im moving to a new posistion, i can defend myself with more thent he pistol

but i want the focus for that kit to still be a prone/supported posistion for firing

If you want better accuracry unsupported, use an AR

[sly crown]

It’s an improvement for certain, but as it stands a rifle is still better in basically every way

I want MGs to at least dominate in their niche

They are a restricted kit afterall

[brave bay]

They still can provide heavy suppresion

[sly crown]

Disagree

At long ranges it can’t even maintain suppression effectively on a single target

[brave bay]

i disagree

[sly crown]

Recoil simply throws your rounds so far off target immediately

[brave bay]

i find it easy to maintain supression, i just find it hard to get kills

[sly crown]

2nd round won’t even suppress at like 300m

Its atrociously bad

[brave bay]

Suppresion isnt just a game mechanic

Its a state of mind for the other player

[sly crown]

Nobody is scared of rounds peppering 15m away

[brave bay]

Because they can SEE who is firing

[sly crown]

If it can’t even inflict artificial suppression truly what is the point

No thats not why lol

[brave bay]

If they cant work out in 5 seconds who is firing and from where, they panic

Its the twitch shooter defense

Snap to target and shoot

[sly crown]

I don’t think that plays much of a role when they’re simply not in danger of being hit lol

[brave bay]

Well tehy are in danger of being hit, the issue is that its more random luck

[sly crown]

Seriously go turn on hit impacts and burst a window from 300m

[brave bay]

so depending on how you look at it, you can just push through to get to cover

or lie down to avoid the random hit

[sly crown]

You will miss the building, only first rounds will impact near window

There is simply no fear of the sustained fire because it is truly not controllable enough to actually inflict wounds

MGs firing single taps is genuinely scarier than a 10 round burst

Which is completely ass backwards tbh

[vocal orbit]

youre confusing real suppression with its inferior fake analogue, blur and camera shake.

if this was cod where death didnt matter yeah id agree, but death matters, and because it matters theres a degree of fear.

If anything OWI should get rid of fake supression and make death more consequential

[frosty gull]

I'm not.

[vale elbow]

thank you for posting this totally not bill

as you can see it's recoil misalignment creating the huge inaccuracy the MG has, that "beaten zone"

[frosty gull]

Death doesn't matter in very much in Squad, certainly not to a noticeable degree from CoD.
You lose points, or the enemy gains points, then you get to reset and come back.
The 40 second wait ain't changing behavior that much.

[sly crown]

The beaten zone is intentional and good to replicate as it is authentic to the weapon. Again this has already been reduced in the playtest and yet its long range performance is not improved. Other parts of the recoil impulse have a greater affect on that accuracy.

That spread at 50m is not wild for a full belt

[vale elbow]

if that were the spread of a 30 or 50 bullet mag dump sure but that level of spread is in effect in less than 5 shots

[sly crown]

its literally labeled a belt dump

[vale elbow]

i'm all for the beaten zone being a method to apply suppression but it should be an intentional act and not the only option you have with an MG

[sly crown]

It's just how sustained fire with an MG works

If you don't want to get that recoil patterning then... don't belt dump

[vale elbow]

okay you're still not understanding

[sly crown]

Like I said, the problem is that the other parts of the recoil impulse cause even the second round to be completely off base

No, you are not.

The effect of misalignment on sustained fire is not remotely close to the problem.

You cannot even be accurate with 3 round bursts. The misalignment is not the cause of this.

Again, seriously, go into a local map and enable hit impacts.

I have documented this prior, the issue isn't sight misalignment, because your reticle isn't in the same football field of your target to begin with

[sly crown]

thank you poaw.

please see more images in thread.

this is not purely an issue of misalignment. these are short bursts.

it's multiple overlapped bursts. every single impact you see on the window itself is the very first round of each burst after resetting

see how it impacts the antenna behind the building

yes, the misalignment portion of the recoil absolutely has a compounding effect with normal recoil, but again there are examples of this in the thread with even 3 round bursts--misalignment shouldn't be much of a factor there at all.

[vocal orbit]

40 seconds, more like 2 minutes. Dying could change the course of a battle. Tickets add up. It takes time on top of respawn to return to the same location.

Squad is closer to dayz or pubg than cod in terms of death counting.

[wraith lantern]

easiest way to illustrate the examples of maximum misalignment which is reached in like the first 5 rounds, for clarification.

[sly crown]

yes, meaning that in my examples very few of the rounds should be affected.

rounds 6 and after would be the most affected by misalignment.

look I am for some of the misalignment being reduced absolutely

it's just by far not the sole problem or even primary problem with accuracy of mgs

[frosty gull]

You're right, Squad is closer to DayZ, PUBG, EFT, GZW than CoD.
The difference between Squad and CoD isn't that big. It like saying Boston is closer to Moscow than New York City; its true but also almost completely meaningless. You're not being completely reset on hours of progression or locked out of winning when you die in Squad.

The minimum timer for respawns is not 2 minutes.

[tranquil basin]

Close netflix tabs lol

[sly crown]

lol it just wouldn't enable the overlay/recording software part

[tranquil basin]

I stopped using shadowplay because it became completely unusable. Steams own recording atleast works.

[lost kindle]

Obs is the best variant in pc resources/video quality ratio

[next frost]

At up to 300m I had no issues killing exposed enemies. Some MGs may be better than others, I did not test all. From my experience there were more accurate on live servers than the perceived recoil indicated. Could of course be a bug or something like that.

Sure they are no pre ICO lasers, but at least they are a usable kit within most common engagement distances.

[wraith lantern]

Yeah I think the big thing here is this picture does look pretty bad but the requirements for the weapon are pretty strict and every debuff is worth so much more. Yours illustrates the extents of all the debuffs at once but I think if an MG that can be accurate enough to hit people at long range is a reality you really need everything toned down including recoil to get there. Perfect example we got is that hilariously enough the M240b is the best MG and it still looks like that. To add to your reference photos. Heres a dump of 4 that is purely the alignment recoil portion with nothing else emulated in as close to 6 round bursts as possible. And then a comparison to the pkp which more MGs share their alignment stats with and how abysmal it is in comparison lol.

m240b all other stances

m240bipod

pkp all other stances

pkp bipod

[frosty gull]

Those are nvvy's not mine.

[wraith lantern]

so factoring in that recoil is throwing the weapon around and then this level of disperse is being added on top, with another natural inaccuracy built in from MOA, it's pretty easy to see how we reach your picture and how it's insane that your picture is the best case scenario

u forwarded it you own it now

[frosty gull]

lmao

[sly crown]

Of course they compound, but look at how acceptable that recoil based purely on alignment is

The MOA is not even nearly enough to be responsible for the difference between my shots and yours, it’s a very minimal addition

[sly crown]

This plus MOA does not equal

[sly crown]

this

Not even nearly, imo

If MOA and misalignment were the only factors here, MGs would be very accurate compared to their actual performance

[wraith lantern]

equal ?

equal what

IDK I was just providing the pics as an aid to what the component is contributing. Obviously recoil plays a part and the side to side is how we get the further apart impacts, and MOA plays its own part since the gun will be misaligned and then you can potentially come out of the barrel at an inopportune angle to add even more deviation. In the 400m case, with an MOA of 4 on the 240 which is pretty good. M240b is definitely the best MG in current vanilla, we'd get an additional 1.8m diameter cone of inaccuracy. Was just isolating the alignment recoil given the suggested use case to give an idea of how much it accounted for the overall inaccuracy present in the original picture. Since the original is basically A + B + C for our final accuracy product, was just isolating C for example.

[sly crown]

Yes my point is that when you isolate that spread is very reasonable

MOA is a fraction of that inaccuracy so even adding that back in should be extremely reasonable dispersion

[nova canopy]

groundhog day

[frosty gull]

It's Tuesday somewhere on Earth.

[pliant forge]

The game was more fun when the bad players couldn't hit anything

[wraith lantern]

Well they still can't, they just get a tiny reward for shooting and missing where as before they just earned a quick death.

[quaint pumice]

Players who frag are always gonna frag. Players who wiff are always gonna wiff. It just depends how frustrating it is for either party you wanna make it

[pliant forge]

no the shooting is easier now. before the bad players literally couldnt hit a single shoy

[sly crown]

You’re arguing for a crutch, exposing yourself for only being good enough to succeed where others could not. If your edge is lost with these frankly minor changes, I’ve got two words for you and they rhyme with drill tissue.

It is not that difficult to outshoot the majority of players even still.

[pliant forge]

reread what I posted again and then point to the part where that has to do with anything I said

[pliant forge]

point to the part where I said outshoot

[sly crown]

I’m sorry didn’t realize what reading level I was working with

Let me try with simple shapes and colors

[pliant forge]

I'm talking about when the bad players literally hit 0/30 of the shots in their mag it was so funny

[sly crown]

Many still don’t and won’t.

[pliant forge]

I don't believe you

[sly crown]

Hipfire hasn’t really changed much since ICO release.

[pliant forge]

let me tell u I was playing since 2015 when u were just a cream in your dad ball

[sly crown]

I backed the game and played PR since 0.4

So who’s in who’s dad’s ball, anyway

[pliant forge]

I was and still am known across all continents in PR

[sly crown]

Crazy stuff

[tranquil basin]

Anways I have over 300 000 confirmed bot kills in cs 1.1

[vocal orbit]

This isnt really true. ICO added a bunch of procedural animation keeping your rifle from pointing towards center screen. The intention being you aim your barrel, but since youre not physically holding a rifle this doesnt work. At fuller stam post 8.2 its better and stays closer to center screen but theres still some cases where youre shooting at your own feet trying to hit the enemy.

[sly crown]

Reread the second part of that sentence…

[vocal orbit]

You called them minor changes, maybe im misinterpreting but...

[sly crown]

I never even said the words “minor changes” in regards to hipfire, quit making up what you think I said and read

[vocal orbit]

.

[sly crown]

Yes, this is not related to the statement you addressed

Read the quoted statement

You are talking about how significant ICO changes were

My entire argument including that thing you just quoted is since ICO

[vocal orbit]

It is if you are sggesting ICO hipfire changes were minor, idrc about your argument w pengu Im stating my opinion on hipfire

[sly crown]

Fucking read bro

Nowhere did I say anything about ICO being a minor change, or hipfire not changing in ICO

Do you know what the word “since” means?

[vocal orbit]

Sir this is a wendys

[lucid pivot]

They still can't

[undone mirage]

Revert ICO

[sly crown]

Too late

[wraith lantern]

Damn nvvy gettin nvvy'd in here. But yeah if anything I can't remember when sway got fixed so one could make the pretty weak argument that hipfire got slightly worse for people on potatoes syncing up the sway values to whatever standard they said it was can't remember but that wouldn't have been that much at all compared to the whole ICO shebackle and wouldn't be a problem if you had a decent PC.

[sly crown]

I do be being misunderstood by people not actually reading what they respond to

🙏🏻

[frosty gull]

Two things a lot of people hate:
The ICO and reading a whole sentence.

I'm not saying there is a correlation, but I am saying I ain't never seen them come to the same function in separate vehicles.

[sly crown]

Food for thought

[lost kindle]

Oh yeah. Fps sway bug

[pliant forge]

reverse the ICO nerfs

Except for the ones for MG those were good

[wraith lantern]

@vale elbow Fistbumps alignment recoil buff on LAN

[vale elbow]

lmao MGs were still terrible so they increased their maximum suppression

they just do not understand the problem

[vale elbow]

there's nothing about recoil misalignment or i'm dumb?

[wraith lantern]

alledged pistol grip alignment recoil reduction

we'll see how much doe

[vale elbow]

afaik that's not going to solve much of anything, weapons will feel less like rubber but they're still rubber

being 4% (whatever the values are) better from an abysmal baseline still leaves you with a bad product

though i would imagine UE5 will be by far the bigger problem for squad going forward

[dry vale]

• Reduced and standardized ‘recoil grip alignment max’ and ‘recoil grip angle max’ across all weapon archetypes, which reduces the rotation of the weapon around the pistol grip during recoil - leading to the feeling that rifles and other longarms aren’t braced in the shoulder, and causing to the front of the weapon to dip down during recoil and losing the front sight post on some weapons

[pine orbit]

Skill issue

[sly crown]

No they were statistically bad

Some still are, some will be less statistically bad. Very often still worse than just having a rifle, though

[wary radish]

If we're talking post 9.0 changes, if those play out like the PTs, the MGs and ARs should be pretty powerful once the changes hit.

They went from substantial recoil to feeling like they have no recoil.

The overall effect on gameplay remains to be seen though, and perhaps other factors such as movement and stamina effects may need to be adjusted to make firefights happen more consistently IMO, but that's really conversation for once the update is out.

[nova canopy]

firefights? in 2025? Nah, Squad Aimlabs or bust

[wraith lantern]

lol what dis from

[edgy gate]

sway seems worse on ue5

[wraith lantern]

idk if its just me but ppsh is less controllable than an akm so thats neat

it was never great tho so it could still just be untouched and still ass

[lapis spire]

More ICO tweaks please

[wary radish]

With or without the stick mag?

[shell bramble]

ICO still fkcing sucks

Cqb combat is still a blurry mess

[bitter anchor]

I think I played on server with ICO disabled yesterday. Was like "B&B" server or something. There is no way it was a mod because none of that is ready.

So did OWI introduce more options for server owners?

[merry flame]

Yea they also gave MGs a Blur buff so that you are blurry longer now

[merry flame]

Nope SquadAdminTools is already UE5

you can remove ICO with SquadAdminTools

[bitter anchor]

I'd rather ICO in terms of weapon handling just be removed. Just keep the intense suppression.

People suck with ICO. It's not a friendly mechanic. Running Squads has been a nightmare the past 48 hours.

[bitter anchor]

ah ok. That's what it is

Felt amazing. It didn't feel like GE which I don't like

it felt dialed way back but suppression was still heavy. Imo that's what they should do

[merry flame]

The cool part is that you can change whatever you want

I disagree with you but its ok servers can run what they like

[bitter anchor]

if I was being shot at I had to basically give up a fight. But confident back to back shots felt how I think they ought to in Squad.

[merry flame]

you want 500,000% gun wobble here you go

https://tenor.com/view/logano-stefano-squad-squad-game-ico-squad-ico-gif-13481152006175142163

This is what that looks like

[thorn haven]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/917488078967435354/1401535121303015547/a22lbh.gif

[pliant forge]

Huge skill issue

[shell bramble]

I could gape you easily

[pliant forge]

Not if you complain about missing every shot 😂 choose 1 or the other

When a game caters to low IQ gameplay this is the playerbase that follows... mind expansion gameplay is needed

[shell bramble]

Look milsimer, I got 2.4k hours in this game and carry every single game I play with my squad. You are right in the sense that the game really is catering into low IQ gameplay, seeing how many of you old heads play this game like its the actual military. This game is NOT realistic and will never be, it doesn't matter how much you think it is

[pliant forge]

You think I'm a milsimmer LMAO

Thank u for copypasta at least

[sly crown]

I don't even wanna hear "skill issue" if you aren't pasting your mysquadstats profile so people can judge your kd

both of you start measuring your epeens, thanks

[vocal orbit]

ICO largely good now except for stam pools/regen, blur, at sway, and most of all mg recoil. All these still dog water

[wraith lantern]

they're the same wappon

[shell bramble]

Yw, chatgpt works wonders

[pliant forge]

Having hands works wonders for aiming in old ICO

[shell bramble]

Player Stats https://share.google/CAaKfZ99g2i2k81Ns would love to see your stats, this shit doesn't even matter anyway because its only been going on for 6 seasons and ive been playing since 2019😂

• global escalation is the only way of playing this game without you wanting to kill yourself

[pliant forge]

That's a low IQ mod

Idk what a game season is I don't play fort nite

[shell bramble]

You just suck its alr

Like 90% of ICO enjoyers

[pliant forge]

@shell bramble the website you linked says you have 12 kills total in ICO season 😂

[shell bramble]

ICO season?

You should look up when ICO released

[pliant forge]

Did U buy the battle pass?

[shell bramble]

Fuckwit

[pliant forge]

Settle down