Balancing The Vortex

[lean path]

Damn

[lime bramble]

damn

[solid kettle]

womp womp

[trim bloom]

🎉

[wild yew]

1000 messages because they forgor to change 3 values 💔

[spiral sapphire]

Cash Rules Everything Around Me (C.R.E.A.M) Come get the money, Dolla dolla bill yallll

[summer wind]

Shameless plug

[honest shadow]

Bro you can't plug anything

You gave me PTSD 😭

[summer wind]

This out of context is crazy

[honest shadow]

#general message

[summer wind]

Sadly im not that guy

[honest shadow]

I'm that guy ;)

And what do you mean by "sadly"?

[summer wind]

:3. Did anyone make a suggestion about folding scythe fins ? The pressure must go on

[timid roost]

Glad to see this page is making the rounds. Electromag solvers are finicky to setup and run, but we can assume this is a good enough result for NO discussion purposes. I was surprised at the lack of impact from the AIM-9s, which may or may not be from the model config but whatever. And the overall relatively high RCS all round compared to open-source estimates (the sim didn't include RAM though, and I dont really know the numbers for that. I have heard shaping is like 70-80% of stealth and RAM is the finishing touch).

The notching thing is tricky to solve for gameplay and realism. I do really like the current system (notching + self-protect EW) as an first-pass gameplay mechanic. It's elegant and simple, and up until mid-tier skill it's balanced well against FOX-3 capabilities (by which I mean their speed, their seeker ECCM i.e. how long a jam is needed for to break lock) to put enough pressure on people that there's a good kill/survive ratio from engagements, or at least puts the notching aircraft into a significantly disadvantaged position, so neither attacker or defender are OP.

But when you get experienced players, the system is a bit one-dimensional and runs out of steam. Becomes too easy and routine to do, and frankly a bit annoying to do. Not saying you'll dodge every single one, and it does still put pressure on you to divert/change positioning, but for a good player a FOX-3 often enough isn't a real threat or doesn't even put you into a precarious position for a follow-up attack.

A second mechanic based on if the illuminating radar doesn't see the ground/sea relatively close beneath the target (so needs to switch off doppler filtering), would be interesting. Adds more of a positioning dimension to long range fights.

[teal fox]

are we prepared yet

[solid kettle]

Yeah it’s pretty close to the top, let me find a link

Edit: #1385468478865018942 message

[timid roost]

cropped fin meteor being what had to happen to Meteor to fit inside F-35.

[solid kettle]

I think allowing ARHs to switch back to datalink if defeated until the they’re physically past the target would help. Forces the defending player to jam much later and hold that jam until the missile is fully defeated.

[solid kettle]

And the AIM-120A and B got ditched entirely, with the C and D retaining the shortened fins for usage in weapon bays while being used externally as well by US fighters. Might be best for the default Scythe to get folding fins for similar reasons.

[timid roost]

Doubt Mitch would like it, as its "varients", but the Vortex's cropped finned scythes could have less agility than normal ones, so easier to G-pull, as a trade

[unique bloom]

no

[solid kettle]

Ehhhh Scythes already are pretty easy to defeat, and the folding fin solution works even better than cropped fins… I’m inclined to support folding fins, tbh

Less work and better results

[tiny crag]

then the jamming should have a longer minimum time too. currently its really easy to start jamming a couple seconds before impact and it (almost always) misses

[timid roost]

oh i like this, hadnt considered a initial period

[unique bloom]

i prefer using scimitars for this very reason, usually i use sycthes along with IR missiles to assure myself a kill

[timid roost]

scimatars fired at 5s intervals are a great way to bully your way into a kill by draining their cap

[tiny crag]

im thinking like instead of a hard switch to datalink, the active alarm fades out as the missile guidance becomes less inaccurate while you jam

[fickle tundra]

not really

[dense cypress]

hes literally correct, scythes are comically easy to defeat for a futuristic fox-3

[fickle tundra]

the point that folding fins are better than clipped fins, thats incorrect, folding fins have more noticable limits

[radiant garden]

They can be dangerous when fired with enough energy and if the opponent doesn't notice them before going active, but it can be countered by fly < 5m and jamming

[dense cypress]

ah i see, well i think his point was more that folding fins work better for internal storage, not that theyre better period,

i agree though same page now mb

[radiant garden]

If fired from low level flight they are just a distraction though

[solid kettle]

noticable limits in game?

with the way NO simplifies mechanics, I don't think the limits of folding fins IRL will impact in-game performance

[radiant garden]

They need to take a little longer to jam to defeat and should have better delta V + less drag in a straight line

[dense cypress]

double jam times for all radar missiles and im not joking 🗣️

[honest shadow]

I read that as "im not jorking it" i'm going to kill my self

[summer wind]

Picture a scythe jorking it

[fickle tundra]

Neither would clip fins really and one looks a lot better and sensible

[honest shadow]

Poor RNG will see this 😭

[unique bloom]

would it be dcs times of pure notching for like two minutes?

[spiral badge]

don't do that, that's bad for your health

[honest shadow]

jorking it or killing myself?

[spiral badge]

yes

[summer wind]

"Rng is typing..." jumpscare when

[honest shadow]

Yeah this suggestion will become the next CAS one of he doesn't stop it

But wont that be a good thing?

[summer wind]

No worries "of" will stop it as i like this post with a singular reptitive argument :

-Moar bay spes

[honest shadow]

moar bay spes

[dense cypress]

no that would be ~4 secs for the scythe and 10 for the scimitar, very reasonable imo

(also you can notch in DCS within 30 seconds easy peasy?)

[unique bloom]

i'm too accustomed to watching growling sidewinder videos, so my perceptions of DCS is quite warped

[solid kettle]

7 sec might be better for the Scythe, 10 seems like a lot tbh
would still be an improvement but not an insane one

[dense cypress]

i dont think 10 seconds is unreasonable tbh

[dense cypress]

like watching a highschooler to learn algebra 💔

[unique bloom]

i was watching another DCS video about some red flag exercise and they threw shade at GS out of sudden.

[signal kite]

STOP! STOP! STOP! 1000 messages. Mitch will not read this thread. Too large

[honest shadow]

Math makes my head hurt

[dense cypress]

GS arent the smartest nor best players by ANY means, like my highschool example you can learn from them but theyre by no means a go to per se

anyway, this is offtopic i apologize

[wild yew]

he was never going to read any(significant part) of it
this is just a place for the community to discuss things to change the public sentiment

[crimson ice]

In the air right now straight up jorking it

And by it, let's just say...

...my tracking radar

[fickle tundra]

Isn't that longer than most capacitor times

[summer wind]

Tbf i think the scythe and scimitar are perfect right now, we just kinda need a middle alternative like the s2, wich i think you said a while ago

[fickle tundra]

I don't find them that satisfying to use, more emphasis on spam rather than smart launches

[dense cypress]

shouldn’t be

[unique bloom]

true

[summer wind]

I much prefer this over spending 10min notching one, but i understand, people spamming are dumb dumbs though it just makes it easier to dodge

Maybe some more guidance delay for the scythe

[dense cypress]

scimitars arent the worst but scythes are absolutely underperforming imo, and even then scimitars are too

also more guidance delay? were trying to help the scythe ffs, now itd just be mid at both close and long range

[astral grotto]

10 seconds of jamming is abhorrent

[wild yew]

youd have to be in afterburner with your radar off to manage that

[summer wind]

That depends mainly on the skill differences imma be honest, scythe could use a slightly longer booster or a more aggresive loft but a 20km range scimitar can be deadly against most targets

I would love the rwr warning to not stop until the missile flies by though, makes people use too much charge and then kill with another timed launch

[astral grotto]

Maybe if they re-locked, we wouldn't have to suggest 10 seconds of capacitor draining jamming

[dense cypress]

yes it does depend on skill, however any moderately skilled player has literally zero issue notching a scythe because theyve likely expected one already looking at the map/DL

id rsther my missiles not just be for seal clubbing new players

[summer wind]

I voiced it badly, i think arh missiles rn are way better compared to pre 0.30

And about the datalink, would you think making the rcs of missiles beside scimitar low enought to not appear on DT ?

[dense cypress]

relock would be 100% better, however without relock i think 10 sec isnt bad bc just use terrain

id be fine with an RCS adjustment, but it should apply to the scimitar too just less so, it still is underperforming against anyone who isnt at M1.5 and cant notch in time

not that that should be a guaranteed kill but it should be a lot more of a threat

[teal fox]

i'd accept radar missile buffs if AI ifrits/revokers weren't so trigger happy
they'll take off and immediately start shooting all their missiles at some random plane at the other corner of the map
it's not threatening, as long range shots are easy to notch, but it's annoying and would be even more so if notching wasnt trivial

[wild yew]

95% of the time a radar missile is more annoying than threatening

[teal fox]

a player has to think before firing
wasting a missile means having to land and rearm or having less for self defense in the future
AI just tries over and over, so instead of evading 3 scythes you're evading 8

[teal fox]

the best use cases that i've found for them are:

1. getting free kills on AI tarantulas/crickets/chicanes as they have no clue how to react
2. 10km shots in a head on (usually not enough room for the enemy to turn and start notching or crank)
3. firing several scythes in such a way that they approach the enemy from multiple angles at the same time (most people don't know how to respond to this)
   a lot of it relies on the enemy being bad/clueless

[dense cypress]

adding to that is DR hunting but that typically requires a semi close/optimal shot to minimize notch time

[teal fox]

right, they nerfed it's jammer

[near lily]

I mean a scythe and an IR is the starting point for a dogfight and tactics within.

You can say it's easy to dodge and notch at BVR but that's the point at longer ranges. Forcing your opponent I to your pattern.

Make the enemy point his plane away, burn some speed that he can't easily get back cause he's throttled down for flares. Waste some of their flare supply ideally too.

Once you take an enemy planes energy away you start getting proper options on how to engage and win the dogfight.

The point isn't hoping the opponent forgets how to notch it's to force the opponent to make some moves. You get your advantage down the chain, then you still gotta capitalize.

[solid kettle]

Its a bit easier to identify the issue when you look at just the Scythe and compare it to other games- I'll draw on Warthunder and DCS, two sides of the arcade/sim spectrum that both attempt to model AMRAAMs. In both of those games, regardless of how accurately an AMRAAM is modeled, defending against one when you're in the NEZ is not an easy proposition. In NO it's a joke- even a semi-skilled player can whip their jet around and jam with relative ease.

Scythes should actually be dangerous within the entire NEZ, not just at point blank range. NO jets have insane TWR, you're really not energy trapping them until you drag them into a gunfight. Right now the only viable way to threaten a jet is to either spam a lot of Scythes in succession (like, your entire payload on a single fighter) or shotgun multiple at point blank range. That's not a good representation of the way these kinds of missiles work, or the threat they should pose to enemy fighters.

"You can say it's easy to dodge and notch at BVR but that's the point at longer ranges"- the problem is it isn't at long ranges, like half of the NEZ for a Scythe is still very very easy to defeat a Scythe in. It's a medium range missile that isn't lethal at medium ranges.

[near lily]

That's true, 10km range its pretty easy to get to the notch vector if you have the energy for a hard pull maneuver.

[kind zephyr]

Agent 47, your task is simple. Go into any thread talking about radar missile balance and suggest adding chaff to nuclear option. Good luck, Agent 47.

[honest shadow]

Hello droopy

[solid kettle]

I don't think we need chaff, I do like the jamming mechanic- it fits the setting and the simlite mechanics- but I do think ARH's should be harder to defeat, so they're more of a threat in their intended NEZ ranges

However, it's important to compare NO to games that use chaff and model ARHs, because it shows how NO is lacking, in some respects

edit: if you think a single Scythe is hard to defeat now I genuinely don't know what to say

[honest shadow]

@kind zephyr You gave me PTSD

[near lily]

That's why I try to get peoples energy down with S3s before shooting a radar missile at 10kms range.

I think part of the problem is people don't take the S3s anymore this patch so they try to force kills with only the AAMs at range and they fail. The s2s only have like 4km range

[dense cypress]

agreed, if youre in the NEZ of a missile that should be a bad position to be in, right now you can shrug and be fine

[solid kettle]

that's like point blank range for a Scythe though, Scythes should have that lethality extended to 20km

[wild yew]

what if we put a guy in the missile

[solid kettle]

calm down Japan

[wild yew]

maybe give the misssile a gun and some canards so it can point its nose at the enemy to shoot them
perhaps some kinda life revoking weapon

[near lily]

Yeah I don't mind what your saying cosmic, intercepting is always gonna be easy enough for incoming missiles. It's interesting cause the scythe right now are about the strongest they've ever been. I remember when we had the radar floor I'd take ifrits with only heaters out all the time, maybe 3 AAMs at most.

[wild yew]

missiles just bother people and trap them into a dogfight
i dont hate it too much

[solid kettle]

I'd like if ARHs encouraged actual BVR tactics

it's not even a 1970s limitation, 1970s air combat heavily featured BVR tactics, albiet with SARHs

AIM-7Fs in Warthunder are more lethal than Scythes in NO at similar ranges, to put it in perspective- and by similar ranges, I mean 15-30km

[kind zephyr]

Add a rhythm game to the notch box that you have to successfully play to jam the scythe, like a 10-20 second mini guitar hero segment that moves down the notch box and you have to activate the jammer to the beat

[honest shadow]

Oh and rename the GPOs to gay bombs

[teal fox]

then we're going to run into the heartland problem where everyone starts in almost visual range

[solid kettle]

I mean Heartland already has that problem, that's not the fault of Tuskos or Piledrivers or ASHMs or ARHs, the map is a knife fight in a telephone booth

[near lily]

Getting my opponent to point his jet 90 degrees to the side while I keep closing is a tactic lol. I understand more depth would be nice though. Radar missiles are in an awkward spot cause you can intercept them with heaters so in a 1v1 you kinda want nothing but heaters

[teal fox]

i guess
makes me wish archipelago wasn't such a mess as well

[near lily]

Ubiquitous data link also kinda kills a lot of tactics. When the radars are down and your actually lurking in the mountains on heartland it's easy to pop outta cover and scoop up kills on unaware foes

[honest shadow]

They should give every plane a personal AI

[wild yew]

yeah its hard to decide if it should be balanced around the crazy knifefight map or the properly sized map that is boring (right now)

[teal fox]

the latter often ends up as an even worse knifefight due to how carriers like to pile up in the center
and how important the central airbase is

[solid kettle]

JARVIS screaming in your ear ain't gonna help you notch any better lol

[wild yew]

i interpreted this as ai thats trained on specific players
it was floated around as a funny idea a while ago

[near lily]

I like ignus and terminal control but the Talon version with the floating airbases kinda ruins the slow huge map balance of it all

[teal fox]

https://tenor.com/view/clippy-microsoft-office-word-publisher-gif-5630386

[honest shadow]

The people need someone to explain their PTSD to

[wild yew]

mfs taking clanker therapy sessions

[honest shadow]

I'm thinking about those AIs in halo that where made from human brains

[devout jetty]

Scimitars at intermediate ranges are fast enough that you get the same sort of 5 to 10 km head on effect of Scythes if they aren't watching the map

[trim bloom]

you did it, the vortex got buffed

[dense cypress]

and its goated…

[wild yew]

its so good now
MIL vtol
amazing fbw settings, lift for day
all we asked for 🙏

[hard timber]

how goated i can check it only 6 hours later

[solid kettle]

It’ll be a bit before I can fly it but initial reports are sounding good, it’s going to be interesting to see if the performance buffs and heat sig alone fully fixes the jet

[lime bramble]

it certainly is a joy to fly now, it doesnt lose speed in turns anymore

also you got what you asked for:

[livid moss]

it also no longer have the "tight turn in heavy load once, have to keep nose up input forever" problem in the previous version. It's generally a very positive change

[summer wind]

YOUHOOHOO

[lime bramble]

afterburner is now disabled in VTOL mode :(
3t capacity + full fuel was fun

[livid moss]

actually I never see them disabled. Are they hard disabled (you can't move to AB in VTOL mode) or soft disable (throttle in A/B has no effect)?

[lime bramble]

you can move to AB but it doesnt do anything

note that this only applies above 60°

below 60° you can still use it

this is full fuel (buff vortex gear maybe or was this too hard of a landing)

[graceful hearth]

The landing gear is made of legos, sorry

[tiny crag]

the gear doesnt even bottom out lol, definitely a missing bolt issue

[teal fox]

it has a tendency break even at 10% fuel without weapons if you're slightly too rough
the limit is like 5m/s vertically i think
it's a big gamble

[spiral sapphire]

@solid kettle thoughts on optics buff?

[summer wind]

So this makes the merch misleading

[woeful goblet]

After a while new people will probably think that it's just artistic convention to make it look cooler

[summer wind]

"Misleading ad"

[solid kettle]

I haven’t been able to try it out yet, at work

[solid kettle]

I wonder if the heat plume is visible at night and/or through IR

That’s how this whole thing started, would be funny if the merch actually references that

[lime bramble]

or just give the vortex 25% afterburner while in any VTOL mode

[solid kettle]

at the end of the day as long as it flies well whatever goes, goes

[summer wind]

Technically your suggestion was like 80% fullfilled

Only thing missih if i remember is eots and 3 scythe per bay,

Wich brings me to an idea, gpo500 style fin deployement

[solid kettle]

The increased optical range might be the way EOTS gets implemented tbh, so what’s left is the loadouts

I’m very interested to see if the changes to the Vortex give it enough teeth to stand on its own, or if it still needs the 6-in-the-bay and internal glide bombs and JAGM.

[astral grotto]

I've gone up to 800 Feet Per Minute without it breaking

[summer wind]

Currently, using x1 externals i find it pretty deadly, a x3 scythe would be pretty nice though, would my retracting fin idea even work ? As in both front and back

Or just back

Just retracted when in bays

[fickle tundra]

ive noticed that CoM has been shifted forward a little, pretty much removing the issue with it tipping backwards especially with heavy ordinance, a massive annoyance with the old FM

[feral robin]

definitely through IR, but probably not with the naked eye. The camera's exposure might be picking up something you can't normally see

[livid moss]

maybe that's what went wrong with Revoker. its CoM might've went backwards or something and it's now horrible to fly between 450~600km/h.

[fickle tundra]

thats just wonky tuning

[livid moss]

it meant the FBW patch actually made revoker less controllable at that specific speed range. I posted on bug forum about this already. before a fix is presented I guess I'll just have to fly straight in that speed range.

[opaque lance]

Probably cameras doing funny things I'd say

[neon ferry]

hey this suggestion is getting buried and i wanna continue dying on the hill that the vortex should be allowed more than just 4 scythes on stealth config

[wild yew]

6 in the bay is the one big part of this thread that hasnt been added, maybe we will get it when theres a more internal focussed arh or the scythe gets folding fins

[neon ferry]

i thought FBW was the only thing breaking, in terms of flight i felt no CoM difference

[wild yew]

I feel it by not losing all my damn energy when I wanna turn lol.

[neon ferry]

i thought that was just the aerodynamics change, didnt know that it resulted in less ability to LMAOA

[solid kettle]

I was planning on a recap once the hotfix drops, as Mitch asked me to hold off on testing/comparing the flight models of jets until they can push the FBW changes

But the Vortex appears to have gotten some of the major suggestions from this thread- vortex lift + flight model rework, reduced IR signature, and I’m pretty sure a small buff to optical detection range as well (nothing crazy but a nice touch AFAIK).

The payload capacity/variety suggestions are still up in the air. I definitely want to talk more about possibly redesigning the Scythe’s fins so it’s optimized for weapon bay storage (allowing for more internal Scythes for all fighters) and adding a JAGM-like AGM, a notable missing weapon for a 2070s conflict.

[lime bramble]

🤔

[granite merlin]

if only we could stick augers in that bay. or maybe some kind of mini-auger.

nothing like cracking a dynamo with an auger.

[nocturne pulsar]

The optical buff, per patch notes: "Increased optical magnification for Vortex (1, was 0.7)"

[cerulean inlet]

I love cracking dynamos

[fickle tundra]

could you make clipped Scythes

[crimson ice]

Six in the bay is real

[livid moss]

not sure about that. I would've thought DR was naturally stable and didn't need FBW for stabilization to begin with, but now in 0.31 even it has instability at some speeds

[grave drift]

qol mod

[worn moss]

Would grid fins that fold flush fit better?

[astral grotto]

They probably would but grid fins are just sub-optimal for BVRAAM's

[radiant garden]

Nah all stealth flying wing designs like the DR, the B2, and F117 are not designed with aero stability in mind and take advantage of the freedom you get when you can ignore stability to optimize for other considerations

[livid moss]

except the DR in the game flies more like an airliner and less like a flying wing that turns to a frisbee when you turn off FBW...

[dawn coyote]

you cant turn off flight assist on the darkreach lol

[astral grotto]

You used to be able to, great times

[sleek cradle]

Mini-auger? You mean a GPO-500?

[dawn coyote]

GPO-500 with rocket boosters and delayed fusing

[sleek cradle]

So is this more Disney bomb or AGM-123?

[dawn coyote]

ya smth like that AGM123, bit of agm130 too, supplementing mass with velocity to penetrate hardened targets, the delayed fusing would also mean it wont work that well against ground units that arent buildings

[sleek cradle]

I still want a 250 and 500 glide kit

[astral grotto]

Back in my day, it was called "AoA Limiter"

[dawn coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/bed-grandpa-gif-9487085887044394933

/j

[astral grotto]

Mean

[fickle tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/bomb-gbu39-explosion-test-gif-9561578841004408805

[near lily]

Hot take, Vortex doesn't need parity with the ifrit. Game is better designed with some natural asymmetry. Putting 6 arhs in the bay is a boring idea to me

[neon ferry]

then what justifies the 90m price tag other than the quite useless capabilities? i find no reason to use the vortex when the revoker (even if easier to see) can just nap-of-the-earth and practically have flawed “stealth” meanwhile being 25m cheaper

let alone the higher missile count

[radiant garden]

Better radar, larger payload, better optical spotting, high optical and radar stealth, the better ability to carry mixed a2a and a2g loadouts, the ability to carry 4 tuskos/arads, lower IR sig, and the ability to super cruise. While the Vortex is not straight up better then the revoker there mission profiles where it is worthit, especially now since it no longer flies like a tungsten cube.

[dense cypress]

it was directly pitched as an ifrit competition, while yes there should still be differences the vort is 100% lacking in internal bay storage

[junior idol]

Yeah, I would also rather have a 4x Scythes + 2xS3s combination, if mixed loadout bays will ever become a thing

[crimson ice]

Pitch limiter gang

[abstract siren]

if the larger side of the internal bays could take 4x scythes, you could choose to make the smaller side take 2x s3s, no mixed loadouts required.

And I don't think 6 internals ARHs makes the Vortex that close to the Ifrit, since the Ifrit gets that and 2 s2s. The Ifrit also has the option to take 3x Scythes/S3s in one bay, 2x s2s in the heater bays, and can still take a number of different A2G weapons in the second bay. In comparison, most of the internal A2G for the Vortex is limited to the larger bay slots, which leaves the Vortex with a single pair of S3s/Scythes for self-defense.

[junior idol]

Yeah, i like the 6x scythes idea, but i dont think that we necessarily need an ifrit rival

I would much more prefer addition of JAGMs/Glidebombs/PAB80s for internal bays of the vortex

[wild yew]

both sound good :)
scythes would need either folding fins or shortened fins to fit 6 in the bay
if it got that change 8 would fit in the ifrit so thats all fine

[solid kettle]

It still wouldn’t have parity with the Ifrit with 6 internal ARHs, it would just be more competitive in BVR. Ifrit still has 2 S2s it can use for self defense or to win the merge that the Vortex lacks.

Alternatively every fighter could receive folding Scythes and the internal capacity of the Revoker, Vortex, and Ifrit could all increase across the board, which would be interesting.

[neon ferry]

i mean this realistically would be my go-to a2a loadout compared to 6 scythes, i was more just suggesting that one of the hangar bays should be able to hold 2 scythes and the other bay for either another scythe or something else

[neon ferry]

now that i think about it this does make sense, but still i feel like the stealth loadouts are still less practical than it should be as a multirole stealth fighter at least in my experience

[noble pivot]

i think we should just have another twin engine heavy fighter to balance it because then we get more planes

[dense cypress]

eventually yes but i hope its down the line, twin engine heavy fighters arent that interesting imo

[solid kettle]

ideally, when NO is close to complete, we’d have at least like 6-8 fighters so that multiple configurations can be explored, and each faction has a good smattering of aircraft across the ranks

[dense cypress]

for sure, i don’t think we dont need them, id just rather other roles furst

faster bomber, more reconnaissance, perhaps another helicopter? more naval assets, im tryna think of more

[shadow rain]

Subsonic bombers and supersonic bombers should be in classes of their own tbh

[dense cypress]

also true, rank 6 when

[shadow rain]

Id say they're the most interesting since you can equip them to do almost any role you want
Ew? They can do that
Air superiority? With ease
Ground strike? No problem
Any and all of those from a carrier? Zero issue

[dense cypress]

but thats kinda my issue, theyre just “do whatever, go my scarab” planes, i like playing planes with niches and roles, while i love multirole i like when things have facets theyre good at and not so good at

but i do agree thats what makes them so appealing, theyre very capable and will do practically whatever you want them to

[solid kettle]

Imma be honest, I’d recommend https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1419431309218152551 if you want a setting that emphasizes niche specialty aircraft. Everything post 1990s is gonna be multirole-centric, the Gulf War showed how important that was for 4th gen fighters.

I do think there’s a lot of nuance in how modern aircraft go about being multi roles, however. A Rafale is very different than a F-15EX, which is different than a F-35B, etc and etc

[dense cypress]

for sure, i just more mean things like how a hornet is more comparable to a F16 than a F15, the modern F15 takes the role heavily of a missile bus for f35 datalinked targets and how the tornadoes have 3 semi specialized variants, im hardly against multirole more just that i love when planes have something they’re just a bit better at

[devout jetty]

S2s are a help in BVR as well tbh, you can yeet em at incoming missiles

[solid kettle]

Given how low the pK of Scythes are, I’m very curious how the Revoker, Vortex, and Ifrit would play if all three got increased internal Scythes via folding fins. Revoker and Vortex would carry 6 internally, while Ifrit would carry 8 (every jet would get 2 additional internally Scythes, essentially). It would be a baseline buff across the board, but past a certain point internal capacity stops being about missiles per duel and starts being about endurance (6-8 missiles seems like the sweet spot).

I think it would need testing, but it’s an interesting idea.

[granite merlin]

Yeah it would also add another tradeoff for the scimitar. Less but better missiles.

[shadow rain]

I'm hoping we see a compact ARH missile like raytheon's peregrine
It's stated to be half the size of an amraam which would make it almost exactly the same size as a pab125 in NO terms
(Which would open up the possibility for an insane amount of internal a2a missiles)
Range is stated to be comparable to an amraam although Raytheon never specified an exact range

[solid kettle]

While that would be cool I dunno how that would be balanced against the Scythe, which already has AMRAAM-like performance

[granite merlin]

no warhead, maybe make it slower.

[solid kettle]

ehhhhhhhh then it kinda sucks in an unrealistic way

[granite merlin]

but you can carry an insane amount of them. Ok if we're gonna realism all over the place lets just buff the scythe and then replace it with this thing.

I'm guessing (probably wrongly) that if a missile half the size can be just as good, the full size one can be twice as good.

[solid kettle]

https://www.twz.com/29895/is-raytheons-pint-sized-peregrine-the-air-to-air-missile-the-pentagon-has-been-waiting-for

hmmm… could have a blast-frag warhead, could be hit-to-kill

[fickle tundra]

the humble:

[granite merlin]

also the peregrine seems to steal the place of the S1 and S2, tbh. Kind of.

You're going to have to tell me what those are @fickle tundra. I'm pretty sure that's an AMRAAM on the left though. no idea what's on the right.

[solid kettle]

I wonder if the move is to craft a new ARH specifically for stealth fighter weapon bays, and slash the cost of the Scythe while forcing it to be equipped externally (like an AIM-120B) but that might be too extreme

[granite merlin]

I mean, I don't really know if I want to have dozens of missiles per plane though.

[fickle tundra]

Derby and MICA-EM, small form factor ARH missiles, could take S3 slots if they could be added ingame

[solid kettle]

an Ifrit carrying 10 internal missiles seems like the absolute maximum amount a 5th gen should have- which it can already do with S2s, for the record

Maybe 12-14 internal for a NGAD-like 6th gen that’s optimized for a large internal weapon bay(s), but that’s entirely hypothetical

[solid kettle]

Given that the S3 can’t wedge together like folding fin scythes, this may actually be an interesting tradeoff. Take 8 internal folding fin Scythes or 6 superior Peregrines

[rotund marten]

that'd be 4 scythes per bay plus its heater bay s2s right?

[fickle tundra]

i mean depends on how you design it, you can make it a low profile design, either way its interchangable with what S3 goes into

[dawn coyote]

Depends on the role you want the 5th gen to play I guess, but airframe generations have become another piece of marketing jargon now </3

[solid kettle]

yup, picture courtesy of AAA

I’m not entirely married to the idea but I think it would be interesting to test. The Revoker, Vortex, and Ifrit would all gain more missiles via folding fin scythes, so it would keep some parity across fighters, but would buff the Vortex and Ifrit specifically for stealth BVR.

[ember night]

Tbh the 5th gens ingame don't feel too much like 5th gens imo

But again 5th gen proliferation hasn't happened IRL

[dawn coyote]

A - ?
B - in NO, one of the primary roles 5th gens play is sensor fusion and information relays, in my line of work i'd much rather have an F35 in AO than a F18-F

[solid kettle]

It is funny, originally the Ifrit looked to be capable of carrying 4 Scythes in its forward bay, so it’s not entirely a foreign idea for the airframe.

please nobody dogpile me on this I swear I’m just exploring the idea this ain’t Balancing the Ifrit Part 4 lol

[ember night]

Yeah but if you're comparing to IRL the missile count can literally go like 4x AMRAAMs on the 35C vs 2x AIM-9X and 12x AMRAAM for the Superbug

[fickle tundra]

should they, maybe the standard should stay the normal internal ARH count for most 5th gens

[solid kettle]

pssssst you’re gonna see F-35s with wingtip Sidewinders often because it doesn’t contribute a ton to RCS, so USAF F-35As will often rock 6 AIM-120D + 2 AIM-9X

[dawn coyote]

rhino gets slammed by a PL15 sent from the Peoples Kingdom of the Eternal Golden Radiance Airforce

[solid kettle]

yeah if Rafales can get bodied by LRAAMs so can Super Hornets

stealth ain’t a magic bullet, it’s what’s necessary to survive modern air combat

[ember night]

4x 120D and 2x 9X at best
The 9X contribute positively to RCS btw through destructive interference

However the "install a pair of 120Ds on the doors" still isn't IOC

[fickle tundra]

4x AIM-174B, 2x AIM-9X, 2x AIM-120D

[solid kettle]

true, though hopefully publicly we’ll know soon

I’d imagine it’s closer than we think, I know the USN has been pushing hard for 6 in the bay

[ember night]

It was announced like 3 WEEKS AGO that it was still in some [corporate term designed to mimic IOC but in fact is before IOC]

[dawn coyote]

Not just the USN either :3

[solid kettle]

Everyone but the Marines who are still chortling that they duped the US aerospace industry into producing a super harrier beyond their wildest dreams for them, as they realize it’s not physically possible to cram it into the F-35B

anyways, regardless of if the Ifrit should get it, the current internal loadout of only 4 Scythes or 2 Scythes + 4 heaters kinda sucks ngl

I think even if folding scythes became a thing for all fighters, the Vortex would disproportionately benefit from it, actually closing the gap between it and the Ifrit more than the current balance

[ember night]

Congrats you just described the South China Sea

No seriously look at the carrier air wings
Most are still stuck with all superbugs
The ones that have 35C squadrons have ONE

Mfw late 2010s analysts try not to shove God knows how many Fords and 35Cs into the Taiwan Strait

[dawn coyote]

Hey I know that theatre!

[solid kettle]

jokes on you, 40 morbillion more doubloons to CENTCOM

the sandbox reigns eternal

[dawn coyote]

F35C pilot when the AN/SLQ-32(V)7 hits their cranium:
https://tenor.com/view/mcride-no-scream-static-gif-17386090

[ember night]

Too late it's all getting embezzled💔 💔 💔

[dawn coyote]

i have a solution to that but the world aint ready for it

no please god no
this thread was going good

[livid moss]

it's indeed kinda what Mitch said. He did emphasize that what he wants is asymmetric balancing. Problem is that asymmetric balancing has to really work, and balance-by-numbers hardly does because each side still has the same number of players

[ember night]

Basic ASuW capability via LRASM: Requires Block 4 F-35, still being tested

Basic AAW capability via AMRAAM: Achieved

Basic SEAD capability via AARGM-ER: Unclear if designated timeline met

Basic land attack capability via JASSM: Unclear

[solid kettle]

Then, if anything, folding fin scythes for all fighters is the move. Vortex gains a viable stealth BVR loadout while asymmetry is maintained between all fighters (they all basically gain 2 more internal Scythes, keeping the current missile ratios the same)

[shadow rain]

I feel like the best move would be to extend the range of the scythes a bit and have the peregrine stand-in have 70-80% of the range that the scythe currently has
On top of that the scim's range can be increased a bit as well to have its range stay separated from the scythe's range

[solid kettle]

I’d be down, the Scythe kinda needs something to make it more threatening in its NEZ, a range/speed buff might be the answer to that

I’m always hesitant to champion missile changes without extensive playtesting, it’s such a fine balance between being lethal and fair, so assume any suggestions come with the sometimes-unspoken-statement that playtesting is required

[teal fox]

I still think it's low RCS would be useful for recon missions
https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1379153402675724389

I hate how I have to get within SAM range just to see the gigantic factories, which are visible with my naked eye

[dawn coyote]

thats very true

[livid moss]

that's why someone unironically suggested a recon balloon the other day...

[wild yew]

💔

[solid kettle]

It’s interesting how, since every platform in NO has insane sensor coverage and datalink capability, one of the major unique features of the F-35 and other 5th gens is almost too common

combined with radar giving off pings even though LPI AESA shouldn’t, and stealth fighters don’t really have a sensor advantage in game like they do IRL

[sleek cradle]

I love how this thread looks wildly unpopular because someone put some weird ⬆️ first

[tiny crag]

External emojis are a plague

[abstract grove]

wtf electorial fraud

literally thought just nobody else cared

[tiny crag]

Why tf is discord showing the 9x updoot instead of the 134x updoot

[feral robin]

super reactions have priority, they're basically paid reactions

[radiant garden]

I mean makes sense, once you figure it out the only barrier for is installing the computers, antennas and new displays. All which is doable and only cost time and money. It's capability thats just one upgrade package away.

[sleek cradle]

Discord sucks as a forum

[dawn coyote]

not really? theres only so much can slap onto a platform until it cant grow anymore

[radiant garden]

I mean ya I doubt you could fit this stuff on a 2nd or 3rd gen, but there are very few things like the mig 21 that are still flying around. Hell alot of the earliest 4th gens like the Tomcat arn't flying anymore.

[dawn coyote]

because you can put MADL or L32 onto a airframe doesnt mean it'll be good at using it

[fickle tundra]

the simple solution is to just stuff as many avionics bays in a plane as possible so theres always space for something

[woeful goblet]

The only thing that would work better as a forum than Discord is a website, but that would require a lot of people, and Mitch doesn't want to be big boss yet

[sleek cradle]

Yeah

[radiant garden]

Ya but alot of the benefits from them arn't it for a hard factor improvement for the plane they are about improved soft factors for the pilot, like reduced work load, and increased situational awareness to put the pilot in a situation where they can make the best possible decisions.

[fickle tundra]

the man who sahled the world

[woeful goblet]

Inmitchable

[dusky kiln]

SEA SAHL
WHERE IS OPALMAN

[sleek cradle]

Snake mitcher

[woeful goblet]

Sahls of Liberty

[fickle tundra]

Opal Heaven

[west wasp]

Makes sense.

Instead of representing a process of changing needs and capabilities paired with technological evolution, the planes in NO come off the same tech base.

So there's none of the issue with platforms being developed for older tech and systems, and then trying to accommodate newer tech and systems into older airframes.

They're all built around the same tech and systems, albeit with different priorities and requirements dictating the design process.

Ergo, a lot of the features that would be unique to the latest planes IRL, are just a standard feature for NO planes.

And, given the opportunity, every military force would want their equipment to be standardised across the same comms and networking systems - just makes their lives a lot easier.

That said, there could be stuff to help stealth play along in the future.

But it makes sense that everyone has the same sensors and integration.

[west wasp]

So, basically a really short range ARH missile?

Maybe with something to differentiate it from the Scythe; such as insane off the rails speed and turning, but a very fast loss of performance over distance.

But then that's where the IRMs come in.

Or it could use some different method of guidance? Since the Scythe pretty much covers the ARH niche within 30 Km, and the Scimitar covers the niche outside 30 Km

[timid roost]

tbf with RWR vs LPI waveforms, it's a classic cat and mouse game, with the cycle between new technique and corresponding counter technique being much shorter in the software defined radio era. LPI probably has the advantage most of the time as they can be on the front foot in terms of techniques which RWR engineers need to adapt to, but also LPI will always suffer from the signal needing a full round trip of signal loss

[solid kettle]

Extrapolating that, the maximum potential JAGM-like missiles that the Vortex could carry would be around 24 (12 internally, 12 externally). In comparison, the Revoker would carry 18 (12 internally, 6 externally) and the Ifrit would carry 28 (16 internally, 12 externally). That's actually a pretty fair balance across each price point, the Ifrit would have around 50% more JAGMs than the Revoker while costing 100% more, making the Revoker actually the econ choice for spamming them. And the Vortex would be much, much closer to the Ifrit in ground strike capability, making it a very viable choice for convoy busting.

(this is assuming that 3x JAGM can be mounted on any external wing pylon- not the Revoker's wingtip pylons, though- and that 2 JAGM fit where 1 folded scythe fits from your other renders)

[lime bramble]

the outer pylons for the vortex might carry a double launcher, a triple one gets too close to the roll ducts

[wild yew]

When the Vortex released I was quite sad that the maximum amount of a2g ordnance you could take internally was 4 total
The pab125 really really helped with that bringing it to 12, in NO you really want numbers for saturation.
But its still the case that the only valid internal only loadouts consist of gravity bombs. (125s, 500s and gpo-n)
I really hope a future weapons pack has some more ordnance that are designed around bay constraints.
A world where you could take 12 small glidebombs,12 agms (48 sized) or 6 small diameter cruise missiles internally would be a dream.

Also towed decoy when :)

[solid kettle]

so the Vortex would sit at roughly 22 JAGM then, 12 internally (compared to Ifrit's 16 internally) and 10 externally (compared to Ifrit's 12)

Could be interesting if it was a BDF-only missile, and PALA got something Russian or Chinese inspired, but I'm not sure what that would be. Ifrit's large internal bays does mean it gets a lot of JAGMs, a lot more than a F-22/YF-23/Su-57/F-35C can carry. But, both it and the Vortex are 2050-70s fighters, so maybe that's not a bad thing.

[rotund marten]

maybe something a bit wider, so it could only fit 6 per bay, but faster, more agile, higher payload, or longer ranged?

[solid kettle]

Then you start having issues fitting it in the Vortex bay with other missiles, which defeats the whole point :/

[rotund marten]

oh i was meaning for the ifrit getting a different missile for the same niche of spammable internal/supersonic AGM

[solid kettle]

I mean JAGM will have way less explosive payload than an AGM-68, and less range/fuel as well. It might be a fair tradeoff to have a bunch more.

[solid kettle]

Theoretically the F-35C could carry 8 internal JAGMs along with 12 external JAGMs, if we’re looking for a benchmark for the Vortex/Ifrit. That’s roughly analogous with the Vortex’s proposed JAGM amount, the Ifrit’s internal bay capacity however is able to fit weapons better than an IRL stealth fighter (no worries about weapon carriages, just clamp the weapon in there, if it fits it ships)

@lime bramble how many AGM-48 could fit into a fritter weapon bay? Was I right estimating 16 internally, or is it closer to 12?

[solid kettle]

could limit the internal JAGM to hypothetical quad packs, so only 8 internal for both the Vortex and Ifrit

[lime bramble]

gets quite tight, but works

[solid kettle]

They’re supposed to be pretty flush together IRL in a quad pack (like GBU-39/53 on a BRU-61 Launcher) so tight fit isn’t unrealistic

It is weird that JAGM has its own triple pylon- if it can fit on the BRU-61, why not run external quad packs? IDK what the rationale is for that.

Edit: could be it hasn’t reached IOC yet, but the triple rack has

[livid moss]

3-abreast and 4-abreast mount of... AGM-48? whose bay is that?

[wide hawk]

Neat, that's a good comparison of munition sizes

[solid kettle]

It’s how the AGM-48 fits in a single Ifrit weapon bay, as a proof-of-concept for how a JAGM-like missile would work (as JAGM has very very similar dimensions to the Hellfire, aka AGM-48)

[fickle tundra]

imagine if their rails are mounted angled like this so they're hot launched straight out of the bay, the maintainers hate it but pilots think its funny as hell

[solid kettle]

Looks like how the UK mounts the SPEAR missile, which is also similar to how JAGM is mounted.

[wild yew]

beauty of a pylon

[solid kettle]

Though internally quad packs are planned, again, just like JAGM, so I think the concept stands

[fickle tundra]

its the same rail but angled downwards because Tornado needs to have them not hit any Paveways or the TGP in front

[solid kettle]

Ace Combat 7 is literally the only source I've been able to find for a good render of how JAGM/SPEAR would look externally mounted on an F-35(C), but by god does it look good

[fickle tundra]

talking those racks but put internally, so they're facing downwards

[solid kettle]

yeah but quad packs would mount more internally, even on the Ifrit

[fickle tundra]

just put two triple racks in tandem?????

[solid kettle]

@fickle tundra the image on the right is essentially two side by side quad packs per Ifrit weapon bay

[fickle tundra]

perchance, but can they still aim downwards

[solid kettle]

I don't think that the weapon bays ingame would work well for that. Might be better to keep the angled exterior pylon concept for the supersonic bomber, especially if it's somewhere near F-111 size.

[fickle tundra]

not against that, tandem brims are hot

[solid kettle]

something like a F-111 would have a weapon bay significantly wider and deeper than the Revoker, Vortex, or Ifrit, so angling the JAGMs downward (and maybe even layering them a bit to fit more internally) might be viable in addition to external triple mounts

[fickle tundra]

could combine them with external fuselage mounts, like this here Bone

[lime bramble]

so you want me to make the ifrit have 24 internal JAGMs

[solid kettle]

uhhhhhhhhh good lord so that's insane

no, for the record, that's probably pushing the boundaries of the magic that suspends weapons inside NO weapon bays

I think sticking with internal quad packs for both JAGM and internal glide bombs is the best move, for both balance and realism

[fickle tundra]

probably not layering but a rotary bay, that would be possible

[lime bramble]

ifrit with rotary

[solid kettle]

dear lord can it actually fit a rotary bay

[fickle tundra]

we gut out a poor ifrit, gonna have zero fuel after this

[lime bramble]

you know the \____---____/structure the ifrit has with the bays? just get rid of that indentation

way more space

[wild yew]

the humble area ruling:

[lime bramble]

to hell with that

[solid kettle]

oh well yeah if you rework the bays the Ifrit becomes a menace of a bomber

[fickle tundra]

wouldnt be that bad

[wild yew]

another problem
looks cooler right now

[lime bramble]

anyways back on topic

[wild yew]

so 12 little guys fit in the vortex bay (125s, 48s, ...)
now you know whats better than 12?
13.

put another one in the cockpit on the pilots lap (he will simply throw it out of the window )

[shadow rain]

not really, the f111 was only able to carry a pair of 750lb (300ish kgs) bombs in its internal bay so getting an internal payload better than even an ifrit is gonna be a bit of a challenge

[solid kettle]

I'm assuming it would be scaled up to fit NO, same way as the Ifrit and Vortex have much better bays than their IRL counterparts

Anyways, back on topic, I wonder if there's a way to have mixed-munitions pylons like this concept. Might be worth exploring.

the F-32 renders/concept artwork are pretty funny in how similar they look to the Vortex

[wild yew]

I always wanted these for the Revoke
Might be a good fit for the Vorty aswell

[wild yew]

Maybe in a future weapons selection update with asymmetric loadouts and stuff.

[fickle tundra]

F-32 is tailed though

[dense cypress]

thats fvcking hilarious i love that

[livid moss]

I think I read somewhere when I translated F-4's Haynes' Manual about that being a 3rd-gen fighter/fighter-bomber band-aid fix. I'd suppose there's a reason it's much less popular in later-generation jets.

[sleek cradle]

The longer I look at that F15 the worse it gets

[shadow rain]

I'm a sucker for conformal fuel tanks

[summer wind]

Eventually we are gonna (like the payday 2 comically large spoon) make folding fins scythe be a fin

[sleek cradle]

Some but not all
F18 is truly the best CTF design and it's a shame we don't see it more

On the other hand there's the eurofighter CTFs

[solid kettle]

Funny enough the F-18E conforms haven’t been adopted anywhere because they murder the jet’s performance and block a lot of hatches for maintenance, pilots would rather continue to run multiple drop tanks

[sleek cradle]

Shame

[summer wind]

F104 cft's

[solid kettle]

Yeah I don’t think CFTs are the move for the Vortex, tbh

[floral mortar]

honestly the problem ive had with the vortex is that it doesn't really get to make too much use of its stealth when trying to do multirole
currently point defense is extremely strong which means no matter what you're flying you'll want to launch at close range

the compass has arguably the best payload with a dozen agm-48s but is also slow and not stealthy
the revoker can carry some A2G payload but it's meant more for A2A anyways
the ifrit gets to carry 12 125s while still having self defense missiles and being stealthy
vortex gets to carry a grand total of 8 125s while giving up all self defense capability or stealth

[solid kettle]

To some extent the Vortex is always going to be limited for purely stealth multirole operations, simply by its bay size. That’s a hard limitation it no amount of balancing can overcome.

JAGM would help to an extent, as it would give the Vortex similar convoy busting abilities like the Compass has.

[sleek cradle]

Unless you give it external low RCS weapons pods

[ember night]

atp just give the Vortex some unique evil ahh A2A missile that has a Mach 6 or even 7 terminal and fully utilizes CEC and IIR as guidance and terminal guidance methods respectively so it can, yknow, actually feel worth using

[fickle tundra]

whatever, go my S4

[sleek cradle]

I hope that if/when we get an EW update BVR gets rebalanced too

[solid kettle]

I just want ARHs to be actually scary in their NEZ 😭

feels like you can shake off a Scythe and even Scim with ease at point blank if you hold the jammer and weave

[ember night]

I mean it gets challenging if you're close and in something like a Cricket

Granted, why are you that close to aircraft that can lob fox 3s in a Cricket?

[sleek cradle]

Wack balance, if you can get into a notch fast they're trivial but if you can't it's a death sentence.

Stealthy dark reach is harder to evade a fox3 than in a max RCS compass

[teal fox]

does the jammer even help when weaving?
i thought you had to be perpendicular to the missile for jamming to do anything

[ember night]

if you're flying low, jamming drops the warning to green and can actually break track

[dense cypress]

wdym its the E, the best model

[sleek cradle]

The load out

[dense cypress]

i mean its a pair of 58’s and a pair of 12’s, but i agree the single on the center is weird

[mossy fern]

Let it spawn from helipads and dynamos if twr is above 1 ( not like the weight where I can still take off)

This would compromise the load even more but would at least be interesting

[wild yew]

When I first saw the Vortex I really hoped it would take off from the dynamo, sadly Mitch said no but atleast we may get a small heli twin hull thingy in the future where it can operate from.

[pallid fjord]

Stupid question, but how do yall download the models so you see can see what fits/doesn't fit. One thought I've been having is if an IRM S2 would fit in the side wheel bays on either the door or wall (which yes, would be cursed)

[lime bramble]

i extracted them from the game using asset studio, but no. no that is a horrible idea.

[kind zephyr]

if ARHs get much harder to avoid and much easier to carry then i fear the entire game will turn into a driving simulator, especially with many planes flying at once

its also my understanding that scimitars especially are supposed to be extremely easy to shake off at point blank range on the basis that the ramjet hasn't had any time to kick in and it has little to no energy to turn

[solid kettle]

I worded the scimitar bit poorly, I meant more like you can evade them pretty easily even when they’ve had time to build up speed

I have no desire to turn NO into hyper-lethal-death-on-missile-launch simulator, but it would be nice to have BVR be actually threatening to skilled players. Right now you can throw a Scythe at a low, slow, energy trapped player right smack dab at the perfect NEZ range and they can still whip around and jam it pretty easily, which is frustrating. Combined with Scythes not having great tracking off the rail, and it makes it feel like shooting nerf guns instead of lethal radar guided telephone poles

If we want to put it in Warthunder terms, I have no desire to have this be a MICA vs MICA simulator, but maybe 80% of the lethality of an AIM-120A within the Scythes NEZ would be a nice improvement. That’s a pretty fair balance point IMO

[kind zephyr]

i have personally never had this experience; i always felt that with how hectic the game can get when juggling multiple threats and targets during times of peak chaos, being thrown out of rhythm by a long range ARH adds just enough spice and just enough of a chance of being caught off gaurd to make it fun for me

i think there are enough alternative threats available that a lone ARH being relatively easy to avoid shouldn't be an issue when taking into account during mission design

[solid kettle]

I’ll have to record some clips then, as recently as last night I’ve been on both sides of it. Had several moments where Scythes didn’t pull nearly hard enough to hit reasonable close range targets, and was also able to shake off point blank Scythe shots with a minimal amount of sloppy evasive action.

The issue ain’t long range pot shots being easy to ignore- that’s fine, it’s situations where a Scythe should excel and it simply cannot track well enough to do so- or enemy players have too much leeway to recover from really, really bad positioning. For Scythes that’s sub 20km against energy trapped and/or out maneuvered targets, aka the heart of the NEZ.

[ember night]

How hectic the game is
Welcome to peer conflicts?

[kind zephyr]

AI generated response

[ember night]

How was that AI what

[kind zephyr]

-direct quote from me
-completely incomprehensible sentence
-random question mark

[dawn coyote]

I feel the bear on the western I-91 finding that car crash rn

[ember night]

I'm simply commenting that, considering both sides are fielding the same damn things, it's by definition a peer conflict and of course it's gonna be hectic, fox 3s included

[kind zephyr]

you're responding to a comment that doesnt exist. nobody claimed it wasn't a peer conflict and nobody claimed it was surprising that it was hectic

hallucinating posts that didn't exist and then responding to them is AI behavior

[ember night]

I don't have to respond to a comment that exists? I am as entitled to my opinion as you are yours?

[kind zephyr]

140,000,000,000 bees

[ember night]

Tbh even with "long range" shots (despite being well within the NEZ) I've seen the Scythe straight up use pursuit nav for like the first 3-5s before having actual propnav(or could be any other algorithm) kick in, so that might contribute to why the NEZ doesn't feel like the NEZ ig

[kind zephyr]

claims "I don't have to respond to a comment that exists?" after DIRECTLY responding to a comment that exists while claiming it says something it doesnt
forgetting things that happened 4 seconds ago
more AI behavior

[unique bloom]

the NEZ should be where the fat lady starts to sing, otherwise you should be able to notch to some varying degree of success

[kind zephyr]

if there's going to be a hard cutoff where notching stops working, should the notching be entirely unavailable from the HUD within the no escape zone?

[ember night]

Absolutely no one mentioned a hard cutoff, why are you hallucinating stuff now?

[granite merlin]

I think this is NEZ for the missile's aerodynamics vs NEZ for the seeker. Maybe both could be displayed?

so A-NEZ: you can't aerodynamically escape the missile, but you can notch it and softkill it.

S-NEZ: you cannot notch.

Is this what's being talked about?

[kind zephyr]

literally one comment up
you even reacted to it, so you cant lie about that

[unique bloom]

what was being insinuated is that there's very low probability of escaping, like imagine it as gradient instead of hard blocks

[kind zephyr]

if the probability is going so low as to be impractical to try, i think the target's time would be saved if the option was removed entirely under this system
like, they would know they're likely doomed anyway so they are encouraged to make the most of their remaining time rather than waste it trying to notch

[ember night]

This exactly

NEZ is supposed to indicate the range where it's improbable to survive with purely maneuvering such as notching and will require countermeasures such as DECM to have an appreciatable chance of survival

[ember night]

Wait what
Wdym NEZ for the seeker?
Assuming you're using deception jamming DECM that should be set at 0 nmi

[granite merlin]

someone said something about NEZ for the seeker or maybe my attention is too divided. A soft cut-off for notching I thought? so notching is less possible here.

So it would be something of a "seeker NEZ" if there's maybe a 95+ chance of it not losing track.

[ember night]

Ironically
Since the game is so hilariously hell bent on giving every single aircraft SuperLink™
That doesn't really come into play, or at least shouldn't

[granite merlin]

reminds me of #1401983971599974463 message

[ember night]

If your DECM is deception, there's no NEZ for the seeker, and if its just noise, by the time you get the warning you're already in seeker burnthru regions and DECM would likely do nothing

[kind zephyr]

aircraft could also be given "Kinetic jammers" which allow them to stop missiles by destroying them, maybe some kind of rocket propelled projectile that locks onto the IR signature of the incoming radar missile

[granite merlin]

APS! stick little micromissiles in a countermeasure dispenser somewhere. I'd only want those on some "super jet" though representing the latest and greatest of the NOverse.

[ember night]

Those are called fox 2s and a noticeable amount of players already use them to intercept incoming fox 3s

[kind zephyr]

and these "kinetic jammers" could even be placed in ground vehicles, maybe on a Linebreaker chassis, such that it would travel from the Surface to the Air

[granite merlin]

look up Miniature Hit to Kill. It's a little SAH micromissile interceptor.

[ember night]

Vro we're already dealing with NEZes being a lie the last thing I need to see is "Missile intercepted - Hardkill" on the killfeed

[kind zephyr]

one could even concieve a specialized aircraft that has dedicated jamming pods making it nearly impossible to reach with radar missiles, and maybe a mounted high powered laser to shoot down missiles directly

[granite merlin]

me in my 300 million super jet imported from idk.. some fictional country. Proptopia

[kind zephyr]

we should propose an idea that nobody has ever proposed or had lengthy discussions about before: chaff

to make it balanced, chaff will be a placebo countermeasure: it will not function at all against radar missiles and will only make players feel safer. however it will still interact physically with aircraft, allowing players to deploy it in front of teammates to let it get sucked into intakes and set engines on fire

[wild yew]

bigger proximity boom + uhh
idk
I want towed decoys but they are extremely unnecessary in the game right now.

I think aspect based rcs could help with the scythe bvr stuff and ability to re lock idk

[unique bloom]

[solid kettle]

jokes aside all the NEZ is supposed to be is the range at which the missile will have enough kinetic energy to hit the target regardless of changes in the targets velocity, you should still be able to jam + notch in the NEZ and survive a Scythe shot. The problem I personally have noticed is twofold

1. Scythe has bad tracking and doesn’t pull hard off the rail like a modern ARH should

2. It’s too easy to jam while not actually notching, aka sloppily jam, to shake a missile, especially at close ranges

I’ve got no issue with players notching and jamming correctly to defeat a missile but man does it feel almost too effective at the close ranges where you realistically should struggle to hit and hold the notch angle before the missile hits you

[wild yew]

imagine you jam and pull after getting a 10km scythe fired at you, it goes back into datalink mode, does a 180 and kills you

[kind zephyr]

i was under the impression that the jammer was hard coded to not do anything unless your nose is inside the notch rectangle, evidently i have been misled

[cobalt girder]

well not exactly? i though it was based on relative motion, IE couldn't outrun from this point in.

[solid kettle]

it seems like it gives you far more leeway with said notch angle, I don’t know the actual variable but I’ve definitely notched in stealth aircraft like 20 degrees off the actual proper notch angle with the jammer active which is pretty nuts

[wild yew]

I think it even helps when skimming the ground, might be a placebo tho.
Back in the day it would raise the radar floor.

[unique bloom]

it's like giving an after image to the seeker

[solid kettle]

It should basically be RGPO tbh

This is starting to be a conversation for the Medusa thread though

[ember night]

Wait actually this raises a question

Does your RCS improve after you've fired off your external munitions? Assuming you can toss your pylons theoretically it should, noticeably even, but so far ingame you're not allow to toss your pylons iirc

[wild yew]

for smaller pylons like single scythes it even goes to 0

[solid kettle]

Significantly, and single pylons for AAMs have no RCS impact after you fire the missiles

[kind zephyr]

what if to simulate increasing difficulty of countering a missile, the Jamming Rectangle changes size depending on how far away you are

from long distances way outside NEZ, its basically a square, and at close range it's like 10 pixels that you have to perfectly be in to have a chance

[ember night]

Damn vro we still don't have PD in the 2070s?

[cobalt girder]

that sounds really annoying, also means you can just always double tap for a kill.

[solid kettle]

I’d imagine that’s why you have to notch and use jammer, not just jammer, the notching is to help defeat radar when it switches to PD

[ember night]

Which is what people do IRL lol
"They called missiles, not hittles, go fire 2"

[cobalt girder]

"always"

[wild yew]

Cant wait for aspect based rcs where I just point my nose at the radar site and it loses me.

[ember night]

You can still hit the deck, no? With multipath generating a way worse track solution even rn you can like cruise at 15 ft and run DECM and it'll work regardless of aspect

[kind zephyr]

what about a difficulty setting per game that toggles radar missiles between Current Difficult, Realistic Difficulty, and Ace Combat Press One Button To Evade for different player skills

[mossy fern]

woudnt it be in pd and then it switches to normal thus allowin jamming?

[cobalt girder]

the missiles in game are not subject to the various foibles of a real missile.

[wild yew]

I mean if it isnt too much effort it would be a nice addition.

[ember night]

To a certain extent they are, multipath is modelled

[solid kettle]

I’d rather go with a variation of your first idea, where at closer ranges the jammer is less effective and requires more precise notching

[wild yew]

Honestly I like that you can do smth about point blank scythes.
outside of shooting em down

[solid kettle]

The missile is only gonna switch to PD if ground clutter is an issue AFAIK, otherwise it’ll stay in normal mode which isn’t affected by notching at all

RGPO should work on both modes if I recall correctly

[solid kettle]

I’m not a fan of Scythes fired at sub 10km approaching targets having a pK of only 50% because it’s so darn easy to whip around and press jammer for a second

Push the kill range out a bit, make the NEZ dangerous to be in, encourage players to utilize BVR tactics and positioning, IDK

Also sucks how badly Scythes track off the rail, even compared to like S2s

[mossy fern]

this would make the game so much worse

[solid kettle]

in what way? You go head on sub 10km approaching an enemy fighter and they fire a radar missile that’s kinda on you

even then it’s still possible to defend- I’m just saying make it harder, not impossible

[mossy fern]

yea ig but it would just devolve into war thunder top tier where everybody is just constantly in space launching missile and instantly notching (i want to have fun otherwise i would go play war thunder)

[kind zephyr]

how far is "off the rail" because i dont think a scythe should be able to turn into a hovering sophon of death like stratolances immediately after launch

[solid kettle]

you do realize that’s the whole point of BVR, right? Actual decision making and critical positioning at range

It’s an older DCS graphic, but it illustrates the point. NO is never going to (or should) be hyper lethal at range but it could definitely use a bit of a bump to make BVR viable.

[wild yew]

I do would like that the radar missiles arent too strong below 5km so IR missiles have a place where they are better.
Even if thats nerfing existing technology which the guidelines forbid.

[mossy fern]

HOLY SHIT YES IT WOULD BE REALISTIC BUT I DONT WANT THAT I WANT FUN

[solid kettle]

I’m not sure your definition of fun is copacetic with radar missiles

[mossy fern]

i dont want a war thunder 2.0 with missiles with mica pull and seeker behavior while still having 60km range

[solid kettle]

yeah so like I explicitly said I didn’t want that either

[wild yew]

Im happy where the game is at so Im just waiting on if they implement aspect based rcs.
I think small improvements to proximity damage and reacquirirquirieieiring could be nice tho.

[mossy fern]

i think its perfectly fine with missile right now

[solid kettle]

That’s where we disagree!

TFW Scythes have a lower pK than AIM-7Ds at the start of Vietnam lmao

[mossy fern]

yes that allows actual gameplay (instead of everybody being limited to the outer edges of the map)

[solid kettle]

if you can’t handle actual BVR tactics in a supersonic fighter jet I honestly don’t know what to say

and I say this as someone who has learned how to deal with MICAs consistently at top tier lol

[kind zephyr]

is pK the dissociation constant from chemistry or is there another pK im not aware of

[cobalt girder]

probability of kill

[solid kettle]

sorry, I slipped into jargon, it’s shorthand for Probability of Kill, the percentage that represents how many kills you can expect per missile fired

Early SARHs had horrible performance and thus super low pK to the point where F-4C pilots would fire all of em at a single MiG hoping to get a kill

[mossy fern]

bruh i can also dodge micas but the problem is it is just the same thing basically every time and nobody even gets to dogfight range (also your 80% lethality would be higher than war thunder so dogfights would basically never happen organically)

[solid kettle]

the 80% lethality would be significantly lower, because in NO you have perfect awareness not only of incoming missiles, you also have perfect awareness of how to notch them AND you can easily and reliably intercept them if you simply don’t want to notch (with your unlimited not-chaff)

even with buffs Scythes will be far, far from as lethal as AMRAAMs, let alone MICAs

[mossy fern]

in war thunder you literally have a rwr so you already have missile awareness at all times

[kind zephyr]

next update: nuclear option is replaced by a text file that just has a hyperlink to the war thunder download page

[unique bloom]

this chart should help? i'm not sure

[solid kettle]

wrong, not only does RWR not give you a reliable distance to incoming missiles, it doesn’t have good representation of the incoming missiles altitude relative to your own, or its velocity, and it lacks 360 degree coverage (the moment you start banking you can easily lose RWR coverage as it can’t see high angles above or below your aircraft)

I’m amazed you’d say that lol

Edit: especially because you also lack DAS and a Notch angle indicator in Warthunder which is a huge buff to survivability in NO, let alone being able to rapidly lock and fire on incoming missiles simply by clicking on it and knowing your heater wont miss

[mossy fern]

it does actually give you a distance as you can use the change in position on your rwr to estimate (also i have never had an issue with banking unless the missile is right below me and i can see the diamond)

[solid kettle]

This is all you get in Warthunder lmao

By the time you see a diamond in RB it’s too late at top tier. I’ve played hundreds of SQB battles (go SADAF!) and even some tourneys, relying on diamonds is how you die lol

Good players operate off of the RWR long before they see the diamond

[ember night]

unfathomably large RCS for AAW weaponry is like a key feature of NO atp

[solid kettle]

we take it for granted but the reliability of detecting, locking, and intercepting incoming radar missiles in NO is insanely powerful

even having a reliable notch angle indicator is a major boost to defensive survival

[kind zephyr]

Nuclear option aircraft seem to have highly advanced warning systems which can do things far beyond the capabilities of any RWR, to the point of detecting and warning of optically guided munitions, suggesting the highly disturbing possibility that nuclear option aircraft are equipped with Optical Warning Observers (OWO)

[mossy fern]

#1 diamond is easily notches because you can see the exact missile position unless they somehow launched from sub 6k, also are u using a diff plane because i get a second missile indicator

[wild yew]

Vortex thread
Looks insie
Warthunder discussion

[kind zephyr]

this is why my discord has a bot that auto mutes you if you say "war thunder"

[solid kettle]

we only got to this point because the claim was made that buffing the Scythe would make it more lethal than Warthunder MICAs which is laughable

[mossy fern]

you said make the nez 80% lethality and the nez on the sythe is like 20km and i know a mica lauched at even 10km doesnt have a 80% lethality rate

[solid kettle]

I said 80% of an AIM-120A’s lethality not an overall 80% lethality rating

[rotund marten]

reading is difficult ig

[solid kettle]

“80% of the lethality of an AIM-120A” puts the Scythe squarely below one of the medium tier early ARHs in Warthunder…

[wild yew]

I do think this is also a heartland vs Ignus thing
on heartland usually every inch is on datalink so bvr is actually within total clarity range

on ignus you gotta be prepared for that [Arh] 2.3km warning

[rotund marten]

maybe it would be better to have less situational awareness for where missiles are coming from or going? not sure

anyway i don't think this topic is exactly what this thread was about

[unique bloom]

it was about the vortex

[solid kettle]

we can continue over in #feedback-and-suggestions if anyone wants to

[kind zephyr]

since nobody can agree about scythes, everybody loses. nobody gets to have fun anymore. this will be on every map ensuring it is impossible to fly from now on. you did this to yourselves

[solid kettle]

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-contemplating-b-21-like-aircraft-air-to-air/

(also https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1388596662716469248)

[wild yew]

👍

[mossy fern]

😂

[solid kettle]

always annoying when I take the time to be super specific and people get pissed off anyways

screw it, AIM-260 when, Mitch let me sweep the skies clear with the wrath of the US military industrial complex

inshallah they shall learn to fear LPI AESA

[mossy fern]

i am not going to respond again cus its just annoying but my problem is not reading its that we disagree on what the missile should be balanced as

[kind zephyr]

"Dynamo Aloft" flying stratolance battery

[solid kettle]

oh god we’re getting close to https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1420485502657892392 and my sanity can’t take round 2 of that thread

[cobalt girder]

the radar truck stays connected to the launchers when lifted with the Tara, use that how you will

[solid kettle]

It’s not a bad chart but I’d change the red to a dark orange for NO. When you’re in the NEZ it should be really really hard to rapidly notch but not impossible, whereas right now it’s fairly easy to pull hard and hold jammer to defeat a 10km Scythe

anyways, I wonder if you could cram a cruise missile into a Vortex bay, not that it would be particularly effective, I’m just thinking about LRASM now

[summer wind]

Scythe as aim-120-c8 (not warthunders useless C variant) and scimitar as "meteor but not really" ?

[solid kettle]

I think he fundamentally doesn’t want radar missiles to be hard to dodge out of fear of ruining close range engagements 🤷

it’s a valid concern but also an opinion that I deeply disagree with

[summer wind]

Tbh i would be ok for scythe to have better off the rails performances, kinda like wt's derby's vs 120b, scimitar is self explanatory since its basically an "Awacs arh"

Would benefit the vortex a little as well

[solid kettle]

offiry’s QoL mod has some good Scythe buffs

next time instead of trying to explain how to balance it fairly I should just post a link to the mod so people can test it themselves, the tweaks are really solid

[summer wind]

True BUT.... mi lov vanilla gaemplai

[ember night]

Still not fully integrated onto F-35s btw still waiting on Blk 4 lol

[teal fox]

personally I like that it's weak at close range
all purpose weapons aren't good for gameplay
imagine sneaking up on a BVR-equipped ifrit, only to get smacked by a scimitar/scythe from 2km anyway
there'd be no reason to equip anything else

[solid kettle]

yeah not exactly how the buffs would make it, offiry’s mod makes it not suck but that doesn’t make it all-purpose, heat seekers still very much retain their advantages at point blank range

[summer wind]

By off the rail i dont literraly mean derby like pulling the entire 30g right after launch, an in between current scythe and pre nerf 360 scythe for example, scimitars can remain like what they are in maneuverability, they are fat bois afterall

[sleek cradle]

All missiles in the games settings should be able to at least do a 180 just not necessarily have much energy afterwards

[summer wind]

The almighty ir missile

[agile valley]

Probably separation safety. Aerodynamics for release are pretty different in a weapon bay versus on an external pylon

[teal fox]

they used to have 360 degree tracking, you could shoot S3s behind yourself without much issue

[solid kettle]

what’s weird is the BRU-61 is used for external GBU-39/53 deployment, I’m assuming it’s just not IOC for JAGM yet

[agile valley]

Even if the sizes are the same, the shape can play a big part

[summer wind]

Yea but they wouldnt turn more than an aim-9m at that time, i much prefer being able to do 60° of boresight reliably

[naive knoll]

“Dogfight missiles”

Three hundred 9Xs confirmed

[dense cypress]

i think they’d be cool on the tara as a survivability boost from behind, but other than that imo too cheaty and “get out of jail free” to me

[unique bloom]

https://tenor.com/view/launch-missiles-cartoon-gif-9911832

[dense cypress]

personally i find even at very suboptimal angles if you time a juke right it makes missile tracking noticeably worse

[dense cypress]

to be quite honest i think at +1.5nm of seperation it should be capable, its 2070 ffs

[summer wind]

Judging from the humor, is that from like a batman movie type cartoon

[fickle tundra]

Megas XLR i believe

[opaque lance]

Jammer confuses the missile on your location

[teal fox]

to what degree?
and even head on?

[opaque lance]

Not enough to matter most of the time, and yes.

It matters if you are doing active evasion but otherwise you'll go boom anyways

[fickle tundra]

whatever, go my clipped Scythe

without clipping the wings its actually just 17 square packing: nuclear option edition

[dawn coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1353788860139700366/1362553161239494747/IMG_1917.gif

[solid kettle]

it was late last night so I didn't respond, but clipped fin scythes look fantastic

[summer wind]

Time for you to add this to the vortex thread if not already spammed

[solid kettle]

(look where we are now)

[neon ferry]

guaranteed the developers have seen this by now so now its just copium till it gets added

[pastel meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/memes-gif-9980668056796018353

[sleek cradle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729472646080626730/1423438762557309011/attachment.gif

[neon ferry]

someone needs to make a FOLDFINS TOMORROW gif

[solid kettle]

@lime bramble I'm not sure if @grave drift moved the outer pylons farther out on the wings, but in the QoL mod the AGM-48 triple rack doesn't appear to actually block the roll vents

Another view, the triple racks don't block the roll vents at all, but again, not sure if the pylons got moved or not

[grave drift]

they haven't been moved, 48s are just nice and compact

[solid kettle]

then yeah, they don't actually block the roll vents, so the Vortex should be able to equip 12 AGM-48s externally, just like the Ifrit, keeping them pretty close in total JAGM payload (which is good for balance)

[summer wind]

Ooooh the wingtip s2 is nice as well

Also regract the scythes fins

[feral robin]

ayo Vortex wingtip S3 slots? that'd be dope, like the F-35

[solid kettle]

The wingtip S2s are fantastic they are really really nice to have

The QoL mod fiddles with heatseekers in general so S3s are better as an offensive missile while S2s are defensive/intercept focused, so it’s a lot like the Ifrit’s heater bays, just a really nice (and visually pleasing) upgrade to the airframe

[feral robin]

ohhh they're S2s, still, this would be killer to have

[pastel meteor]

You can get it in the qol mod

[feral robin]

2082 server right

[pastel meteor]

Cosmic cactus approves

[summer wind]

When does offiry becomes an active dev ?

[stiff pendant]

Did I ever mention something like SPEAR 3 for vortex internal bays?

[solid kettle]

I would love this but seeing how hard it’s been to convince the devs to add internal glide bombs, buffing them to SPEAR levels of pseudo cruise missile might be a hard sell, as awesome and appropriate as that would be

[stiff pendant]

as a wise man said, "what can I do sometimes"

[stiff pendant]

if not that, I would love to see a cruise missile more compact than AGM-99 too, like this

[honest shadow]

98*

[stiff pendant]

for some reason I keep forgetting every time, but what can I do sometimes

[stiff pendant]

actually this might be the second time that I am suggesting a compact cruise missile but bug it, here we go again till the sweet end

[spiral badge]

yeah like a air breathing AGM-68 or AGM-48

[stiff pendant]

probably not as much punch as agm-68 but yeah, something more tactical level

[spiral sapphire]

JAGMs? they aren't cruise missiles but think of them as a direct upgrade for the agm48 meant for higher rank jet fighters to have the same capability as agm48 compass

[stiff pendant]

AGM48 is already the brimstone/jagm of this game, at most, I would go for a JAGM-F which is heavier than baseline JAGM at 100 kg or somethin

[fickle tundra]

Brimstone had a better motor that can extend its range quite far

[stiff pendant]

as far as ive seen, agm48 can go up to crazy ranges like brimstone when fired from high speed planes

[spiral sapphire]

they do have range, but they're also slow at range

[solid kettle]

Looks like JAGM-F can be mounted on the BRU-61 (aka the quad pack pylon the SDB series uses) both internally and externally which means the total external JAGM count could be bumped up… but I do really like the aesthetic of the triple rack… maybe quad packs on large pylons only?

[stiff pendant]

lil bro ain't a tusko, give him a break please

[spiral sapphire]

did not say tusko, ever

[stiff pendant]

of course, just saying don't expect anything above mach 1 if your target is 30-40 km away, even if you can hit it

[solid kettle]

JAGM cruises at just under Mach 1 when launched from a helicopter, it’ll be much much faster when launched from a supersonic fighter

[spiral sapphire]

Kill

[fickle tundra]

AGM-48 tops out at 6 miles when firing stationary (ie heli launched)

Brimstone II does 20 when heli launched

[stiff pendant]

i will actually try 20 km for agm48 from helicopter, just wondering thats all

[opaque lance]

Thats because AGM-48 isn't a Brimstone it's an ambitious Hellfire

[fickle tundra]

yes.

[opaque lance]

1970s munitions? In the 2070s? It's more likely than you think!!

[cobalt girder]

should probably do a public playtest on a map 10x the size, with different range munitions, and see if its fun or not

[stiff pendant]

it is fun, execpt the part you wait for what might be GODDAMN MINUTES

[fickle tundra]

10 is a bit exessive

[stiff pendant]

I remember a test where I fired agm48 at long range from cricket, I got bored halfway and went off to make myself some filter coffee

so you can most likely pull 20 km but the wait will be barely worth it, that range suggestion is there for a reason, that is when you realize time to target is a factor in deciding whats better

[pastel meteor]

maybe a 160-240 km map may be good

[fickle tundra]

square

[dense cypress]

to be fair id be honestly surprised if we arent still using dumb MK82/4’s and Paveways in 2070

[opaque lance]

Do we even use dumb bombs now?

[stiff pendant]

Stealth becomes kinda pointless at bomb range if i will be honest

[lime crag]

I seriously want to write a "modest proposal" to move the setting to an alternate, more advanced 1970s

[teal fox]

Yeah, there comes a point where a weapon is "good enough" (there haven't been any major small arms advancements in the past 40+ years)
500kg of explosives won't get less destructive in, 100 years. Bomb guidance is already pretty good too
Even more so if production costs of current munitions go way down, due to better manufacturing

[stiff pendant]

Kramenka has some mad optical guidance design if they fit it on bombs as if it is pepper

[fickle tundra]

sometimes when you dont want to waste a JDAM kit

[dense cypress]

yes? israel has used thousands in the war on hamas

CCIP has made dumb bombs very effective, and alarmingly easy to use. yes for precision youll always prefer something else but ironically the best time to use UGB is now

[fickle tundra]

depends on the target really, a wide area and buildings? just dump bombs

[dense cypress]

ofc, but for most targets that dont rely on a sub 20ft impact zone a UGB is fine is the point

[teal fox]

so basically anything that isn't an armored vehicle

[spiral sapphire]

if i play nuclear option without guidance on bombs i would Explode

[dense cypress]

pretty much. precision is an extra bonus but with modern CCIP makes dumb bombs scarily accurate

also DDC skill issue, using the bombs unguided is so fun

[fickle tundra]

a bridge

[dense cypress]

if youre referencing the famous dragon bridge in vietnam, yeah but in their defense they werent using CCIP iirc, the THUD was to my knowledge limited to CCRP modes or bombing tables

[opaque lance]

Were they going like, perpendicular of the bridge?

[dense cypress]

all sources/renditions ive seen say yes,

[opaque lance]

Why? That's like, the hardest approach to hit

[dense cypress]

because of the geography and topography of the region, it was covered by heavy AA and so they needed to follow the river basically iirc,

i dunno man im not the general i just work here

[solid kettle]

https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1419431309218152551

Probably easier to start from scratch at this point

[spiral sapphire]

Die

[ember night]

Does this claim account for the aerodynamic limitations of the airframe

[solid kettle]

Uhhhh the limitations of JAGM? I’m seeing ballpark estimations of Mach 1.5 top speed but it’s obviously not hard number, purely speculation. But JAGM-F has been successfully test fired at supersonic speeds from fighters, so I’d imagine the missile is rated for pretty high speeds (Mach 1.5-2.5ish)

NO doesn’t really care about munition speed restrictions though, seeing as you can drop bombs from internal and external pylons at Mach 2+ with no issues.

[ember night]

Launch velo and sustained max velo are likely 2 different things

But yeah iirc I've bombtossed while supersonic in NO as well so

[signal kite]

I think ability to carry pablos internally could be a feature of faction.
I think it could be good for vortex will be BDF could be make pair maximum amount of pablos for PALA and BDF.

Of course this idea for future implementation when we get ability to play on faction dedicated aircrafts. But it still be able fitted same eay

[west wasp]

The problem with internal glide bombs is IMO pretty much entirely down to just how weak and easily killed ground units are already.

So perhaps this may be a very different conversation if ground were to be buffed and required more effort to find and kill.

[signal kite]

#general message

[solid kettle]

(hey yall, lets keep it on topic otherwise the mods will lock the thread)