Tom And Jerry

[trim zealot]

I’ve considered making a counterplay “guide” specifically for T&J, just so we don’t get nerfs like this anymore.

[raven onyx]

As if PFG is gonna watch that

[trim zealot]

No, but the players might.

It *could mean less complaints.

[raven onyx]

No one in the MVS community can be pleased

[trim zealot]

I was for a while. Up until this nerf, even the last 2 didn’t really bother me.

[raven onyx]

They can kill off TnJ but not nerf WW what is this favouritism

[trim zealot]

Unfortunately, yes. It’s kind of paradoxical. Because WW is easy to play, many lower skill players play her, so the few really good WW players (who prove she’s problematic for game balance) fly under the radar. While harder characters like T&J, have many high skill players playing them because of Tom’s complexity, so very few “bad” Toms are encountered.

It would seem that Tom is problematic at first glance, but it’s just the players who are really good compared to other characters’ playerbases.

[raven onyx]

Doesn't mean to KILL THEM OFF

Ik TnJ needs skill but doesnt mean to take everything away

[trim zealot]

I know.

I’m not trying to justify the change at all, it was completely unwarranted.

[raven onyx]

Ik your not defending it

[patent prawn]

The dude who gave each MVS character their smash counterpart put TnJ as Olimar and I can see it

Because of how hated they are

[raven onyx]

But one is gutted one isnt

[patent prawn]

Olimar has been said to be gutted

Olimar went from top to mid tier after a single patch

[trim zealot]

That’s the general consensus, yes.

He was high skill too, might’ve even taken more skill than T&J.

Not beta T&J though.

Beta T&J one of the hardest FGC characters I’ve ever had the pleasure of playing as.

[raven onyx]

Voids TnJ was amazing

[patent prawn]

Y’all still have a top rep with Hardcore. Tho he is, well, Hardcore

[raven onyx]

?

[patent prawn]

A lot of what he does is very cheesy from what I’ve heard

[raven onyx]

In Beta or now

[patent prawn]

Now

[raven onyx]

He did drop TnJ i think

[patent prawn]

Hardcore Fox?

[raven onyx]

I thought u meant Void

[patent prawn]

Thats why I said Hardcore

[raven onyx]

Who is Hardcorefox

[patent prawn]

The top 1 player in ranked currently

Iirc top 1

[raven onyx]

Damn

[patent prawn]

Lemme check rq but he was top 1 last season

Nope number 2

[raven onyx]

Who over threw him?

[patent prawn]

JMafia

As BG

[raven onyx]

Well thats embarrassing

[subtle lotus]

Bro, that's lit why I mained😭 him on the first placed

Bugs its inf times better than T&J, he got to be S tier or smth

[trim zealot]

I saw void’s tier list video. He’s turned on us, says he think that we’ll be S tier after we “get used to tech chasing and mix ups”. These are sad times.

[subtle lotus]

What's void its saying its true

Paddle into jerry shot its true at low percents and with correct di read

Then paddle into racket its true too, if you read the di and the opponent its on high percent

[spiral granite]

Why are some TnJ mains acting like he is uselles

[subtle lotus]

Its hard to perform

But i think thats the point

[subtle lotus]

He is for players that don't like hard characters

They main T&J bc he was easy

[spiral granite]

He is fine rn, still needs some changes

[spiral granite]

Yeah i can see

[subtle lotus]

I dont think so

I think the paddle should drag down to combo properly the jerry shot

But yeah

The character its more skill

[spiral granite]

Idk man down air hitbox still pretty insane

[subtle lotus]

You need to read di correctly to perform an paddle combo

[subtle lotus]

Yea

[patent prawn]

Hitbox doesn’t make a move tho

Or make a character

[spiral granite]

Lets not act like down air hitbox is not broken

Its the size of Gizmo

[patent prawn]

Its a dumb hitbox

But that doesn’t literally make a move

Jack has dumb hitboxes otherwise is a mid character

[small topaz]

Tnj is good rn

Only thing that chsnged

Is now you gotts read

With paddle

Most combos are probably the same

Only difference

Is you have to read where they go after using paddle

[trim zealot]

False. I play them because I love Tom and Jerry. I never played them because they were easy.

I’m sure there are others too.

[subtle lotus]

I played him bc it was my figthing game archetype, the reading and 50/50 and bc it was my childhood

[dusty nova]

🤝🥂 real

Same was about to hit Dimond

[trim zealot]

Their archetype is projectiles, now more than ever.

[subtle lotus]

I think its about an management of 2 characters at the same time more than projectiles

[trim zealot]

Why not both?

[subtle lotus]

Also i think the void thoughts on T&J are prepatch bc I dont think thats his opinion after we got the jump removed

[trim zealot]

Jerry acts as a beacon for projectiles usually.

[subtle lotus]

His an mix of different styles

When I was on void stream he said that the T&J changes were really bad

[trim zealot]

True, he didn’t mention the nerf at all. But the mention of mix ups and tech chases does lead me to believe he knows.

Oh wait

[trim zealot]

Nvm.

Alright he’s still cool. Thank goodness.

[subtle lotus]

Still playable

Instead of jerry shot

Racket its the viable option

[raven onyx]

100% agreed with Void no need to kill off TnJ

[subtle lotus]

Also to perform an paddle combo you need to read the di first

[subtle lotus]

Yeah i now

[raven onyx]

I had to drop TnJ now

[warm sonnet]

I love it when scrubs are outed by nerfs to abusable characters.

[raven onyx]

You cannot be talking with your unga bunga stupid kill power character

Morty can TnJ at 70

[warm sonnet]

I also play Stripe. Also also, don't let the lesser overtuned characters distract you from the fact that Shaggy still carries a lot of people.

[warm sonnet]

Jerry can also destroy all of Morty's projectiles.

[raven onyx]

Just throw a billion projectiles at him

[patent prawn]

Nair reflects projectiles as TnJ iirc

[warm sonnet]

Then throw them back.

[subtle lotus]

Stripe its top tier

Lit he got an kill confirm at 40%

[raven onyx]

😂 holy cap batman

[subtle lotus]

I think il switch to bugs after all in 1s

Then farm T&J on 2s

[warm sonnet]

If you're gonna shame anyone for being bad at the game, shame the developers responsible for the bs balancing.

[patent prawn]

Yeesh

[raven onyx]

Hes the better mage and heavier

[subtle lotus]

I think it's joker

[raven onyx]

I beat Joker so many times

[patent prawn]

To me it also depends why/when you start playing a character

[raven onyx]

Not an issue for me

[raven onyx]

Im not

[patent prawn]

You may fight garbage Jokers

[warm sonnet]

I just like the way the characters are animated and the stuff they represent.

[raven onyx]

Nah

[patent prawn]

You sure?

[raven onyx]

Yea

[warm sonnet]

Joker hard carries.

[patent prawn]

He truly does

[subtle lotus]

Maybe bc you didn't faced an high rank Bugs

[raven onyx]

I slaughter Joker with Jason

[subtle lotus]

I recommend yall to farm T&J on 2s if you dont want to drip him

Bc in 1s he's not looking good

His dead

Il get to masters with him on 2s

And il grind bugs on 1s

[warm sonnet]

Jeez, if only Player First Games playtested their characters...

[patent prawn]

Nah, they’re busy playing Rivals 2

[warm sonnet]

No way, so am I.

[raven onyx]

PFG have defo have favourites

[warm sonnet]

Played it for 4 hours straight instead of this garbage.

[subtle lotus]

It seems like pfg hates T&J

Bc they didn't nerfed an single top tier on that patch

Just T&J

The point was on nerfing not killing the character

[trim zealot]

I think they just cared more about appeasing the general player base instead of buffing characters up to the level of A-S tiers. I don’t think devs should nerf as the first option to balance top tiers. If every character is top tier, no character is top tier, but they are all viable.

That second sentence had nothing to do with the first, just a random tangent.

Just dumb up tilt got nerfed again.

It wouldn’t be as bad if we got some compensation buffs to make other moves more viable, but no other changes were made to Tom.

[raven onyx]

Its saddening that people cant punish a single move

[patent prawn]

Somewhat, they only nerf some things that people complain about

I play Morty and know dirt is obnoxious to fight and yet they don’t gut it

[raven onyx]

Wow a Morty player realising Dirt is stupid

I only have hatred for it bc it nullifys all of Bugs projectiles

[patent prawn]

Most Morty players in the Mortycord agree its broken

[raven onyx]

They do?

[patent prawn]

Yes

We want jab buff dirt nerf

[raven onyx]

All i want for Bugs is more safe health (Not Prepatch)

[trim zealot]

I’m surprised as well.

I’m glad It got nerfed some point along the line.

I’m fine with it now though. I was bothered when it was the “do everything” move for Morty.

Zoning, combo starter, extender, etc.

Now it’s much slower so you can actually punish it.

[trim zealot]

Do you know how the health on safe works? It seems inconsistent to me sometimes. I’m not sure what does more damage, just raw damage moves, knockback, or multi-hits.

I’ve managed to destroy safe extremely fast a couple of times, but most other times, it takes a bit to destroy it. It’s to the point where I’d rather just stop the Bugs player from reaching the safe than try to destroy it.

[subtle lotus]

They killed T&J man, we got no combos

I hope they revert the changes

And nerf paddle into dair

[summer rivet]

Sure they do, it's all abt creativity with Jerry
Plus they're a mage, it's not abt combos much

[subtle lotus]

Bro all mages got cool combos

Our paddle into jerry and paddle into anything got cooked

We got nothing

[summer rivet]

There are other ways to get people, like with their jab
or down air and even Neutral which knocks ppl into the ground

[summer rivet]

Ok if u think so

[subtle lotus]

Neutral it's not true

Jab can't be combo with paddle

And down air the same

Theres no combo

Our only true combo are, jab 3 dtilt at low percents, and jab 1 dtilt at high percents

💀

[naive pebble]

Up smash, slight hesitation then Jerry shot into Up Smash, slight hesitation then Jerry shot is takes you from 0 to death percent and it's an unfair completely game breaking infinite

[trim zealot]

It’s not true, just di up and mash dodge.

At least go into the lab before making a claim like that.

[slender matrix]

#clips message
Guys, it's normal a Garnet don't die at 135 by the fishrod when she is in the air?

[cerulean cliff]

Might not have been the sweetspot

[cinder goblet]

Damn They nerf tom and jerry

[drifting pollen]

bro i just played a game can u not cancel pedal by jumping to do other moves any more?

[naive pebble]

I tried to di in every direction and mash dodge I couldn't get out it's game ruining.

I got master in 1v1 I'm not a new player it's completely unfair and feels bs to play against.

btw I learnt how to do it in 2 minutes and when I went online nobody could escape it so the counterplay if it even exists is not something anyone can do naturally even at master.

The up smash needs to be nuttered completely this loop feels like it's been in the game in different variations and no matter how many wrist slaps they do it's never fixed, We need a serious nerf, I'm going to gladly quit the game if this is not fixed soon because this is a joke at this point.

@silver vessel Btw abusing the loop doesn't make you good at all. You're hard carried by trash game design.

[drifting pier]

SCUM

[naive pebble]

Top 1 T & J and when you look at your gameplay or play against you, you're just abusing the loop the devs still haven't fixed. I really wonder who you'd play if that loop didn't exist, probably Taz but at least he can't 0 to death of his trash design.

[drifting pollen]

@naive pebble what do u play btw

[naive pebble]

Jack, Black Adam, Jason, Buggs.

and Shaggy

[hollow flax]

Bro he still has loops? I thought they removed them with the recent change.

What is the loop now?

[cinder goblet]

They remove the pan look

But not the scratch loop

[naive pebble]

New infinite is Up smash, cancel with Jerry shot, aim it towards ground and when they're in range to get hit release the shot and up smash them out of their ground bounce.

Btw catching the tech is easy, you just walk whichever way they tech and you'll catch them easily because the tech is not fast enough or far enough to get away.

[naive pebble]

there it is, enjoy

[acoustic belfry]

Let's hope that people that play different characters don't cry to PFG and tell them: "nERf tOM ANd jERrY pLS 😭" when they get destroyed by that combo

[acoustic belfry]

Can you show us in the clips to see how it is performed?

[dusty nova]

I'm sayin man we're cooked

He's the only character i really play

[subtle lotus]

It doesn't work, if your opponent di correctly

Its very unconsistent

And impossible on high percents

[subtle lotus]

The loop is not working bro, you lit need your opponent to have an bad di

And if they are at high percents, no matter the di you won't get that jerry shot

Its trash

Bc the jump with paddle allowed us to follow the di even better, and cover more angles

Now that we can't jump its useless

And unconsistent

And we can't combo that paddle into racket

We got nothing

They got to revert the change of paddle not able to jump on combo

And nerf paddle into down air, then T&J would be fine

[acoustic belfry]

Bro, they're already getting killed and you're asking that they should be killed even more

[subtle lotus]

Bro its removing the down air, or leaving him with no combo like now

That we can't jump on paddle

Remove the fricking down air, and we are fine

[acoustic belfry]

So you're asking that he should be nerfed even more? Or you're asking for buffs?

[cerulean cliff]

I'm not wasting time on this but loops are not infinites and the one you listed can be dodge jumped out of

I play both Jason and TnJ, the matchup for you is much more manageable now

[hollow flax]

Alright then I guess TJ is fine then

[trim zealot]

You can control whiten direction you tech roll in. If you’re getting caught after a second ground bounce, that’s a you problem. The loops were removed with the addition of the auto tech 2 patches ago. It is no longer in the game. This “new loop” you are talking about requires a heavy read on the direction you tech in. It’s called a tech-chase, if you’ve ever played smash ultimate you would’ve heard the term before. You just have to mix up the directions you tech roll in, or don’t roll in a direction at all.

[cerulean cliff]

I hope everyone who keeps this energy aganst this character puts the same toward every other tech read sequence in the game

[trim zealot]

I really thought we’d get less people complaining about Tom after the latest nerf, but there’s more instead.

[raven onyx]

Told you MVS community cant be pleased

[hollow flax]

As a non Tom player I don’t really care too much if he has a loop or not. He is a bad mu for me anyways

[trim zealot]

Why are you here?

[hollow flax]

Saw the nerf and was curious how that affected him cause I used to main him.

[trim zealot]

Oh.

[hollow flax]

Btw how do you guys kill now? Cause you can’t jump out of paddle

[raven onyx]

We dont

[hollow flax]

bruh

[trim zealot]

It’s pretty sad right now. I wouldn’t advise learning them until we get our combos back tbh.

[raven onyx]

People cant punish a single move

[hollow flax]

Yeah it be like that

[trim zealot]

We have 3 confirms left. One is Jerry shot > tennis ball > up air. The other is Tom racket > down air near ledge after 90%. The last is down air > up air.

Not that the confirms matter with our poor damage output.

“All” our combos are gone.

[summer rivet]

Rocket

[hollow flax]

Dang even jab 1 into down attack is gone?

[trim zealot]

No, but it doesn’t go farther than that, so the damage on that combo is poor.

I put quotation marks around all for that reason.

We have some combos. But only the bad ones are left really.

[hollow flax]

oh I thought you were talking about kill confirms

[trim zealot]

That isn’t a kill confirm either.

Jab into Jerry shot never killed.

[hollow flax]

I meant this

[hollow flax]

Which is why I asked if this still worked for killing

[trim zealot]

Those kill confirms still work.

[hollow flax]

ok that sadly feels limiting

[trim zealot]

It is.

Projectiles are more consistent for killing now.

I legit find myself fishing for aerial rocket to kill people now.

It sucks.

[hollow flax]

I wonder could you do like a dair into aerial up special into up air

[trim zealot]

No. One or the other after down air.

It could also depend on the opponents % for which follow up you should do.

At low% you can only do dair > fair.

Not a kill confirm but a very small combo.

[hollow flax]

dang well hope you guys get some combos back or some paddle kill confirms.

[trim zealot]

As do I. Ideally both.

[hollow flax]

I don’t want them to add back the loops though. But were they even loops cause you could tech out of them?

[trim zealot]

They were taken out 2 patches ago. This latest nerf JUST got rid of most our true combos/kill confirms.

The loops relied on ground bounces without the auto tech.

[hollow flax]

Oh lol

[trim zealot]

Any “loops” you see now is just a player’s roll being read.

Not true.

[hollow flax]

Yeah idk they removed that then

I don’t think they paddle kill confirms were that crazy even

Just allowed him to actually consistently kill

[trim zealot]

And have anti-air that actually rewarded us. Now every time I use up tilt, I feel like I only did 5% to the opponent with no follow up.

[cerulean cliff]

Paddle can be special cancelled into Jerryshot but it whiffs on small opponents

The real issue now is Tom without Jerry is bottom 1 in the game without question

Tom solo cannot fight and has to run away, I'm wallcamping and air stalling until Jerry comes back

[trim zealot]

Well, some of our other combos involved up tilt, even if it wasn’t the starter. Like Jerry shot > up tilt > whatever else from there was excellent, but now our only follow up is like one move in fair or tennis ball at the right Jerry angle.

So our general damage output rn is pretty poor, even considering our projectile game.

Unless, of course, we camp most of the match. Which is no fun for us, or the opponent.

[cerulean cliff]

Tangentially related, whoever decided Garnet needed Black Adam's shield on demand I want a word with

[trim zealot]

I haven’t seen a single Garnet since last patch. What changed?

[cerulean cliff]

Her song buff can be stacked to 3 now

On 3rd stack she and her ally get a shield that nulls all projectiles

Jerryshot bounces off her now

[trim zealot]

Damn. That’s quite a buff.

It was super easy for her to get song stacks already.

[cerulean cliff]

The MU's not unwinnable in 1s but wow is it significantly harder

That and her Jab 2 having armor for no reason lets her just brute force her way in

[trim zealot]

I remember seeing that buff.

[summer rivet]

nope

[trim zealot]

I think the matchup wouldn’t be that bad were it not for our combos getting Thanos snap.

[summer rivet]

So keep Jerry alive

[trim zealot]

Black Adam was tough before. Imagine it now.

[summer rivet]

He has dynamite, mouse traps, fishing rods, and other things without jerry too

[cerulean cliff]

And what do we do against all the anti projectile perks then hmm?

None of them break armor

[summer rivet]

Just hold off on the projectiles until it runs out

[cerulean cliff]

So run away like I said, thank you for proving my point

[summer rivet]

Not run away, there's also just fighting them normally

[trim zealot]

Ah yes, bad projectiles with little to no knockback for keep-away, and single hit attacks with no combos at all. What a great character.

Also just happens to be one of the lightest in the game.

[cerulean cliff]

I'm still winning a few games despite this, it just involves playing lame

It iiiiiis what it is

[trim zealot]

That’s all this nerf is making us do.

Without such reward for melee attacks, we have no reason to approach or go in.

[cerulean cliff]

I should look into changing perk loadouts actually

Pugilist isnt really worth

[trim zealot]

You were using speed force assist?

Oh nvm.

[cerulean cliff]

My go to is Flammable, Last Stand, Pugilist

[trim zealot]

I use flammable, the ground bounce perk, and pugilist. I only use pugilist just because I don’t really know what could be better for damage, even now.

Armor killer might be nice but it’s niche.

[cerulean cliff]

Isnt the new one in that third slot

The one that gives gray health?

[trim zealot]

Which one?

Blind spot guard?

Maybe. I just don’t know how much it gives, and we’re already super light.

[cerulean cliff]

We're hardly getting melee hits in so who knows

[trim zealot]

I will consider clear the air.

An extra reflect would be nice.

[cerulean cliff]

If anything, this makes me appreciate 2's a lot more

[trim zealot]

Tom was always nuts in 2s. It’s hard for them not to be.

[cerulean cliff]

Just like god intended, Jerryshot and rocket into chaos

[trim zealot]

“I use a slingshot for home defense, since that’s what PFG intended. Four randoms break into my territory. william Hanna scream as I grab my slingshot and mouse. Shoot the first opponent offstage, he’s dead on the spot. Shoot a tennis ball at the second, but it does nothing because it has no knockback. I have to resort to the mousetrap mounted across the map. I say nothing as 2 approach and get comboed into aerials. Fix claws and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He dies because he’s terrible and couldn’t outbox the worst melee character in the game. Just as PFG intended.”

[cerulean cliff]

If I somehow hit diamond again (currently Plat 3) I'll settle but I'm probably getting a different 1s main altogether

[trim zealot]

Understandable.

I would consider the same, but the lab has yielded no viable alternative to T&J in 1s.

[hollow flax]

Have you tried static electricity instead of pugilist for dmg? If you stay grounded a lot the +10 dmg for hitting them with a projectile sounds pretty nice

[trim zealot]

I might give it a try.

[acoustic belfry]

That means there's hope to get our combos back

[naive pebble]

The number 1 tom and Jerry does the loop to kill % to pretty much everyone and does it live on his stream hardcorefoxttv

Just because some T and J players aren't good enough to do a loop that's honestly pretty easy shouldn't mean everyone else has to suffer against the people who can do it.

(I literally learnt it in 2 minutes just from seeing it done to me and I already explained how you do it.)

If you can escape it by doing a controller breaking sdi idc, the di is harder than the combo yall are kinda garbage if you can't do it ngl.

[cerulean cliff]

How often are you fighting the #1?

And what character is he even hittng with this

[naive pebble]

More than enough to know that the combo is easier than the miracle di that I somehow can't do despite getting to master lol

He's doing it to my Samurai Jack it's not even a big character

I'm sorry yall but this is a skill issue on your end if this combo doesn't get nerfed because it's so broken and so easy

[cerulean cliff]

So you're petitioning for us to use this so called loop instead of giving buffs in other areas of the character

Jack is one of TnJ's worst MUs at that, something went wrong

And has his own loop that doesnt involve ground bounces, Void hits that all the time

How are you as Samurai Jack even getting hit in the first place, do some inner reflection and figure it out

The first one to spout "skill issue" is usually the one getting skill gapped themselves

[naive pebble]

Remove that loop and give tom and Jerry a bunch of cool buffs idc.

The loop is just completely broken and makes me want to turn off when I see a T and J doing it

[cerulean cliff]

All one of them from what I'm hearing

[acoustic belfry]

Can you show in the clips how it's performed, cause it's hard to understand the words

[cerulean cliff]

If it were as easy to hit as you claim, we'd be seeing a lot more master TnJs

[raven onyx]

And a GM one

Grandmaster

[naive pebble]

the guy I seen do it to me was GM and top 1 lol

New infinite is Up smash, cancel with Jerry shot, aim it towards ground and when they're in range to get hit release the shot and up smash them out of their ground bounce.

Btw catching the tech is easy, you just walk whichever way they tech and you'll catch them easily because the tech is not fast enough or far enough to get away.

(I copy and pasted this like 3 times now it's as easy as it gets and if you want to see it live watch hardcorefox on twitch, he's the GM I fought)

[cerulean cliff]

He's the #1 player worldwide

That's not an infinite or a loop its all tech reads

Tech reads as you're describing are not exclusive to TnJ

[naive pebble]

it's not tech reads you can react to the tech so easily that it's a joke

[cerulean cliff]

If there's a tech at all its not an infinite is my point

[naive pebble]

Tom walks towards you with his up smash it is unique to him

it is an infinite the tech system is not good enough rn you can cover every option with certain moves and tom up smash is the perfect example of a move where it's so easy that it's unfair

[cerulean cliff]

That's not the character's fault, that's the system needing changes

By that logic Batman and Lebron have infinites too

[naive pebble]

It's more the character honestly because even if teching was made stronger all that would happen would be it's a guessing game and if you guess wrong you take 40% per wrong guess

[cerulean cliff]

Batman does 60 on a wrong guess, sets up for sharking with up airs and applies weakened

Or if he takes you to ledge can just kill you with his down tilt kick follow up

[naive pebble]

some characters are at kill % for one wrong guess and if this game turns into a 50/50 simulator the game is going to die so quick

rn it's not a 50/50 tho Tom covers everything for free

I don't play tom at all and can do it

it feels like cheating

[cerulean cliff]

Two options I suggest: Either file a support ticket with the devs, or pick up the character right now and take him to masters yourself if its THAT brain dead

Complaining about it here to mains of the character does not achieve a damn thing

[acoustic belfry]

Yea, I'm actually thankful now

[naive pebble]

it's not fun cheesing people out with something that's probably getting patched. There's more fun games out and characters in Multiversus that are more fun

[cerulean cliff]

Then why are you still talking about it

If you dont care enough about the state of the game, let it resolve itself

[naive pebble]

cause I want this game to be good. This is a reasonable complaint to have

[naive pebble]

when did I say I don't care?

[slender matrix]

Please guys, don't loop 🙏

[cerulean cliff]

I like this game a lot too but you're in the wrong place to be fielding these complaints

[naive pebble]

I sent it to game feedback too

[cerulean cliff]

Then that's all that needs to be done

[subtle lotus]

He should be fix, it's better not having down air but still jump on paddle bc paddle its useless without jumping now, we can't catch anyone with good di, and it doesn't confirm into anything at high percents, and we got our jab removed after paddle so it's useless

[cerulean cliff]

TnJ is not THAT common a character for this to be a serious problem

[naive pebble]

How is talking about a character tech in a character channel not a good idea th?

[subtle lotus]

The character was fine after we got our jumps removed

People just can't stop complaining about his skill issue

[naive pebble]

Watch him be more common when people learn this loop

[subtle lotus]

We got lit no combos now

And we cant do tech chases and 50/50 now

Bc the jump got removed

[subtle lotus]

Its not an loop

And its not true

[naive pebble]

New infinite is Up smash, cancel with Jerry shot, aim it towards ground and when they're in range to get hit release the shot and up smash them out of their ground bounce.

Btw catching the tech is easy, you just walk whichever way they tech and you'll catch them easily because the tech is not fast enough or far enough to get away.

[acoustic belfry]

They're the people who got skill issue for the fact how that combo was destroying them

[subtle lotus]

That don't work we alr try on day 1

[acoustic belfry]

They went crying to PFG

[subtle lotus]

Can be di

[naive pebble]

The top tom and Jerry is doing this combo

[subtle lotus]

Ik and he always miss it

[naive pebble]

bruh Gogeta you're doing it wrong it does work

He doesn't

[subtle lotus]

On an good di its impossible to get

[cerulean cliff]

Again, the best way to spread awareness is doing it yourself

[naive pebble]

He literally did it to me 6 stocks

[subtle lotus]

And at high percent it's not possible to perform it

[cerulean cliff]

Or if you saved the replay of that set, post it online

[subtle lotus]

Bc you dont khow how to di correctly

[cerulean cliff]

Youtube is free

[subtle lotus]

Its useless, it's lit an noob trap

[naive pebble]

You get them to kill % with it and then kill them it's so easy and the only people who think it's ok are people who can't do it themselves.

[subtle lotus]

Its super easy to di and avoid the jerry shot

I hope they revert this change

Then nerf down air following up tilt

[naive pebble]

I'm master. The people he's doing it to are also high rank

[subtle lotus]

That would be am great fix

[subtle lotus]

I'm masters too

[acoustic belfry]

I actually feel bad for you for copying the same words

[subtle lotus]

But it doesn't work pretty well

Its unconsistent asf

[naive pebble]

How can you not do the combo then

[cerulean cliff]

Post replays

[subtle lotus]

Its an unconsistent mess

[naive pebble]

There's no replay system but check his stream hardcorefox on twitch

[subtle lotus]

If you opponent can mix his di he won't get on the jerry shot

[hollow flax]

To settle this just post comparison of the combo with correct and incorrect DI and how you can escape with tech

[naive pebble]

inconsistent *

[subtle lotus]

Only on bad di

Still useless for me

[cerulean cliff]

I'll bite, work is slow, lemme actually see this for myself

[subtle lotus]

I just want to revert the change and thats all

[naive pebble]

idk what to tell you. You are doing it wrong. it works

[subtle lotus]

People was complaining about paddle into down air

Then nerf that bro

Not kill the character by himself

[cerulean cliff]

There have been so many bad faith actors over the past week I find it hard to believe

[hollow flax]

That isn’t even that crazy

[naive pebble]

The new combo is better

[subtle lotus]

Ik how it works but it's unconsistent

[naive pebble]

"new"

[subtle lotus]

The new combo its not better

[naive pebble]

Gogeta it literally is not. You're messing it up 100%

[subtle lotus]

Only confirm on jerrry shot on bad di

And racket it's impossible to hit

[naive pebble]

There's no way you practiced what I'm talking about

[subtle lotus]

I try it on high ranks

I khow how to do it

But its not consistent as i said

[naive pebble]

There's no way you practiced this bruh it took me 2 minutes to do it I don't even play tom

[subtle lotus]

Ok let me put you on an exampke

Example

So I was playing with my friend

[naive pebble]

hit the lab please. I'm done here

[subtle lotus]

When I get him with the paddle

He was di'ing away

Then when i charged the jerry shot

[hollow flax]

Just post a clip of it not working cause @naive pebble ain’t gonna change his mind otherwise

[subtle lotus]

And wait him to be near the ground

He changed his di

And mix it

So he won't get hit

And ik how to di it

[naive pebble]

here's how to do it btw. make sure you cancel the paddle with side b and hesitate a little bit.

[subtle lotus]

I lit lab all the possible combos day 1

[subtle lotus]

Ik how to do it alr

But its trash

[naive pebble]

bruhhhh

[subtle lotus]

Your opponent can mix di

I mean you won't keep your di at the same direction

[naive pebble]

You have to be doing it wrong

[subtle lotus]

Bro I'm not doing it wrong

Its lit

Paddle

[naive pebble]

There's no way

[subtle lotus]

Then hold jerry down angle

And release him with correct timing

[naive pebble]

You can watch hardcorefox do it on stream

[hollow flax]

So they can hold out during paddle and after cancel they hold in or something to avoid?

[subtle lotus]

But if you mix di you won't get hit

[subtle lotus]

Alr saw it

When I watch him on an stream

He drop the combo like 30 times

[subtle lotus]

When your in hitstun with paddle

Bc its an multi hit you can constantly change your di

When the T&J start holding jerry to release it

[naive pebble]

Bro stop downplaying please this loop is a tumor for the game

[subtle lotus]

You can change your direction

And avoid it

[subtle lotus]

Its an tumor for you bc you dont khow how to avoid it

[naive pebble]

Literally gonna downplay this game into the grave homie.

[subtle lotus]

Or you can just di upwards

And it works anywauz

Anyways

[hollow flax]

Take his advice into consideration and try avoiding it next time

[naive pebble]

I had 6 stocks and tried every di and couldn't escape it

[subtle lotus]

Fr

Its lit an di mix

[naive pebble]

It's lit not.

[subtle lotus]

The T&J wont read your di on perfection

That combo its an massive di read

Yo can mix up your di and thats all

Its an player situation not an character one

[naive pebble]

Escaping the combo is harder than doing it. I'm master and can't escape it once

[cerulean cliff]

I just watched him try on a Finn and they rolled out and escaped

[subtle lotus]

Well it's a lil bit hard

[naive pebble]

Maybe some characters can escape but Jack can't

[subtle lotus]

But if you play smash or smth like that it wont be that hard I think

[subtle lotus]

Oh yeah

And its an hitbox thing too

[cerulean cliff]

That's a big body problem brother

[subtle lotus]

Some character are more unconsitent than others

[naive pebble]

It has to be removed guys cause this is too easy and too effective.

[subtle lotus]

Jack its big so

[hollow flax]

Jacks big legs bruh

[subtle lotus]

Its really hard to escape from it

[subtle lotus]

Its not lit

[hollow flax]

Nah just don’t get hit by it as jack or play a smaller character

[subtle lotus]

Your character its way to big

[naive pebble]

This is going to make new players quit the game 100% just remove this cheese and give Tom buffs to cool stuff

[cerulean cliff]

Jack himself should not be getting caught by this anyway

[subtle lotus]

That's why that happend to you

Try di upwards and spam dodge I think you won't get hit by it again

[naive pebble]

idc if tom is good but when he's making the game unfun that's when it's an issue

[cerulean cliff]

He has a big ass sword, which has been a weakness for TnJ since the BETA

[subtle lotus]

T&J its weak bro

[cerulean cliff]

Space better

[subtle lotus]

His not s tier or smth

His disadvantage makes him bad

[hollow flax]

Bruh just because he got an inconsistent mid combo doesn’t mean he should be nerfed more when all his paddle stuff is gone already

[subtle lotus]

The paddle spam its easy to punish

And if you get hit by paddle try the next time bc you main jack

Di upwards

And try to dodge up

[naive pebble]

You're lecturing a master jack player just so you know

[subtle lotus]

Maybe it could work with you bc your character its big

On medium and small characters the mix up works really good

But idk about big character

[cerulean cliff]

And you're here trying to tell an ENTIRE player base of a character we're not playing him correctly

[subtle lotus]

I mean try to di up and dodge up

[naive pebble]

I'm not trying to be cocky but I didn't lose to a noob stomp move this is actually a real problem

[subtle lotus]

Bro tbh paddle its super easy to avoid and punish now

Paddle its an trash move

[naive pebble]

I'm telling you about a loop that I know works because I lost to it 6 times

[subtle lotus]

Tom and Jerry its trash by himself with this new change

Just try the di upwards

[hollow flax]

It was a better move before the nerf don’t know why your complaining

[subtle lotus]

Paddle won't drag you down into jerry shot

[cerulean cliff]

By getting gapped by the #1 world player in a MU that TnJ loses historically

[subtle lotus]

And bc the Tom can't jump, he won't get you

[naive pebble]

If it's so bad then why so reluctant to see it get nerfed more and other moves can be buffed to compensate

[cerulean cliff]

Name me a buff right now

[subtle lotus]

Bc people skill issue don't khow how to play against him

[naive pebble]

Would you rather this get taken out in favour of something better or nah?

[cerulean cliff]

You talk like you know the character so well

[naive pebble]

It's not a skill issue dude

[cerulean cliff]

Offer a tangible solution

[subtle lotus]

Ofc it is

[hollow flax]

Because your saying it’s good when it isn’t so why should Tom be nerfed more

[subtle lotus]

Paddle its one of the more punishable moves in Mvs

It was really good on the game release

And fair

[naive pebble]

Because it is good and you're downplaying so hard it's ridiculous

[subtle lotus]

And people still complain about it

[hollow flax]

Yes but you’re acting like it’s the worst thing in the game

[subtle lotus]

I'm not downplaying your just complaining for being bad

[cerulean cliff]

Show me another player thats not hardcorefox that does this

[naive pebble]

Honestly for me rn it is my biggest issue with the game

[subtle lotus]

Paddle should get an hitbox rework

And thats all

Then add again the option to jump with paddle

[cerulean cliff]

That's not on us

[naive pebble]

I can't express my skill if I'm getting stuck in a loop for 1 mistake and dying for it. That's not fair

[cerulean cliff]

I hate fighting Steven but I'm not ranting about what I think is bas design

[subtle lotus]

Ok listen to me

@naive pebble

The character its not on an good spot right now

Bc all of his combos got removed

And all can be di

The character when the game released was fair

Why?

Bc he needed to tech chase and read to win

I got to admit it

Paddle hitbox its horrible and unfair mess

And that need to be removed

[naive pebble]

Why on earth defend this cheese then? Would you not want this removed in favour of other buffs?

[subtle lotus]

And change the paddle hitbox upwards at the top of the paddle

So you can whiff punish properly

[glossy path]

When the game released there was no tech chase

[naive pebble]

Gogeta why defend paddle specifically if it's so "trash" anyway

[subtle lotus]

Yes they was

[glossy path]

No there wasn't

[subtle lotus]

Paddle jerry shot 2 times

[hollow flax]

There wasn’t lol

[glossy path]

Teching was added season 2

[naive pebble]

I just want this cheese removed because it's not fun to fight and also completely unfair

[cerulean cliff]

There wasnt a tech system before this

[subtle lotus]

Then you can do an 50/50 on tech chase

[hollow flax]

He literally had a insane loop on release

[subtle lotus]

With racket

I'm talking about season 3

When they buffed racket

So it was an 50/50 on tech bounce

[naive pebble]

Wow you just revealed you dunno what you are saying.

[cerulean cliff]

But anyway

[hollow flax]

Oh should’ve been more explicit that it was season 3 release and not game release

[subtle lotus]

@naive pebble this is what I'm talking about

[glossy path]

Character downplayers never do

[naive pebble]

I just argued with someone who thought techimg has always been in the game lmao

[subtle lotus]

Ik

[cerulean cliff]

All I'm really hearing is you lost to one player and want the character gutted for it

[subtle lotus]

But when we got the racket buffed

[naive pebble]

what a waste of time

[subtle lotus]

We got an tech 50/50 on the early season 3 patch

[glossy path]

Tom is so popular for a reason you know

[subtle lotus]

With racket buff

[subtle lotus]

For being our childhood

[glossy path]

He's a zoner which usually aren't popular

[cerulean cliff]

Because he's a funny 1940s character

[naive pebble]

I hear that tom and Jerry players dunno what they're talking about at all and downplay stuff that's broken cause they're too garbage to abuse it themselves

[glossy path]

He feels clunky at first when you're actually trying to play him

Then you find paddle

[subtle lotus]

Bro your talking way to much trash

[cerulean cliff]

Do it yourself

[subtle lotus]

Il say everything about him

[glossy path]

And everything just instantly works

[naive pebble]

1v1

Gogeta you will get bodied

[subtle lotus]

I'm not maining T&J right now tbh bc of the changw

But ok pvp

[glossy path]

Damn, thought you loved him for being from an old cartoon you liked and not viability

[subtle lotus]

Ofc I love him

[cerulean cliff]

The past few days have only brought big body players here to whine

[subtle lotus]

I'm just waiting pfg for an patch and giving him more combos or smth

[cerulean cliff]

What is being accomplished

[glossy path]

Yea cause it works best vs big body

[naive pebble]

Check8813 is my ign and if I win I want you to say "sorry for being dumb" otherwise I'm not playing you

[subtle lotus]

Paddle its bad

[naive pebble]

I'll say same thing if you win

[glossy path]

But still works against smaller characters

[subtle lotus]

If I win you will get out of this chat

Then

[naive pebble]

Ok deal

[cerulean cliff]

It doesn't really, I watched the sole abuser of this drop it several times

[glossy path]

I know there's a lot of bs on a ton of characters

[subtle lotus]

So il use T&J then

[glossy path]

Then it's worse, but still good

[subtle lotus]

Or I can use my secondary?

@naive pebble

[naive pebble]

it's a bit pointless if you don't use T and J

[hollow flax]

Nah at this point use T&J

[cerulean cliff]

Characters can have MU dependent good things yes

[subtle lotus]

I'm saying that his bad but ok

Il tey

Try

[cerulean cliff]

Like we still destroy Iron Giant

[subtle lotus]

Lets see if you can mix your di on the paddle jerry shot

[hollow flax]

have him actually learn how to DI that combo or something idk who is in the right at this point

[naive pebble]

bruh you're gonna lose then say he's bad. I'm in a lose lose here

[subtle lotus]

Bru

You will br leaving this chat on secs

[naive pebble]

what rank are you?

[subtle lotus]

I was on masters with T&J last season

And right now I'm plat 1

Almost diamond 5

I stop the grind after the recent patch

[glossy path]

A lot of characters just have things to complain about

[subtle lotus]

And start grinding Bugs with my friend in 2s

[naive pebble]

If you want to play your secondary you can

[subtle lotus]

Yes that's true

[glossy path]

Look at Batman 💀

[subtle lotus]

Bugs, nah bro, would be an abuse

[hollow flax]

True you can complain about anything on any character even if they are best in the game

[naive pebble]

what's your ign?

[subtle lotus]

I got it on my discord

[naive pebble]

I literally plan to use bugs myself so

[subtle lotus]

Send an inv

[glossy path]

People complain about bad Jason's

Cause jab jab side b sure is a thing

[hollow flax]

lol

[subtle lotus]

I dont want to use T&J after this recent patch tbh bc with di mix, its really hard to catch someone

But yeah il try

[naive pebble]

Check8813 is my ign

[subtle lotus]

Hold me an sec

[glossy path]

It's not supposed to be easy

[naive pebble]

you have multiple accounts linked to your discord idk which one is your ign

[subtle lotus]

So 1 ronda with bugs

And 1 round with T&J

@naive pebble

[naive pebble]

Just do what you want, as long as there's no stage hazards idc

[subtle lotus]

What you will play?

[hollow flax]

I mean that’s kinda the point like I play lebron and if I do like 30 dmg and gamble on a tech read then it won’t be easy to hit cause the opponent has multiple ways of escaping

[subtle lotus]

You said you main jack

[naive pebble]

Stop tryna counterpick lol

I picked Buggs

[subtle lotus]

Idk what to play against you I got every character bruh

[naive pebble]

I feel the way you feel about T and J about Jack since the initial nerfs he got

[subtle lotus]

Can you hold me an sec

Il go throw the trash from here

[subtle lotus]

Idk T&J should be nerfed in some aspect

And buff in others

[subtle lotus]

Hold an sec

[naive pebble]

why not nerf the paddle?

[subtle lotus]

I was talking about nerfing and buffing it

[naive pebble]

We're fighting when I think we agree. Unless you think the paddle shouldn't be nerfed then I disagree

Well as long as the loop is gone I'm happy

[subtle lotus]

Should be balanced

Ok wait an sec bro

Il be there

Also I don't want to be toxic with you

So nothing happends if I win

[naive pebble]

Same here

[subtle lotus]

I see that your not that bad

Your just complaing about smth frustrating

[glossy path]

Mvs community members agreeing to not be toxic against one another, I've entered an alternate timeline

[naive pebble]

I'm complaining about a loop do you deadass want loops in the game?

brb

[subtle lotus]

No, I just want

Tech reads

Dodge reads

And 50/50s

That's why I liked so much T&J

After 2 jerry shot combo

You could do an mix up on tech bounce

[naive pebble]

I'm back

[subtle lotus]

Il play my main

[naive pebble]

tech needs to be reworked it's way too easy to get a loop

[subtle lotus]

Il try it

[naive pebble]

and I hate 50/50s tbh

[subtle lotus]

I love them

It makes the charactef skill

Character

I'm okay of they make the paddle into jerry shot jump back

And make the 50/50 harder

Sry but gtg right now

[naive pebble]

omg why sd

damn ok then

gg

[subtle lotus]

Ggs

Not bad bugs

You need to learn the new nair tech

As i said

[naive pebble]

you need to aim the jerry shot into the ground so I go down at a diagonal angle

[subtle lotus]

T&J feels so bad

Man it's like gizmo

[subtle lotus]

Ik

But first you need to get the di

Then do it

And you can mix di

[naive pebble]

Is the nair tech just nair into up air?

[subtle lotus]

So what the point

Yes

You can make the nair float

To combo up air

[naive pebble]

I can do that it's just hard when you have hitboxes all over the place

[subtle lotus]

Its not hard to perform

[naive pebble]

ik

[subtle lotus]

Its just keep press jump when your doing nair

I just want the tech bounce 50/50 bsck

Paddle jump jerry shot 2 times

Then tech read or 50/50

Then nerf the paddle hitbox

To not pull back opponents in front of tom

The hitbox should be at the top

And making Paddle into down air untrue

That's all

@naive pebble I think you could agree with this one

Also good game

I could win it if I didn't gtg so early

I was winning for one stock

[naive pebble]

If you had to go how are you still able to type so long after the match tho

[subtle lotus]

Bc someone was calling me for work

Then I got to stop playing

Now I'm typing bc I got wifi right now

Ggs tho

[naive pebble]

ggs

[subtle lotus]

Gtg right now

[drifting pier]

The downplay is crazy 😂🙏🏾

Yall enjoy being the most scum of scum

[subtle lotus]

Bro you cant talk about downplaying, if your the one who thinks rick it's c tier

He lit got like more than 20 combo routes and situational combos

[drifting pier]

Combo routes doesn’t mean u have good combos lol

[subtle lotus]

Bro side air into portal

Its good

I really enjoy rick combo game

[drifting pier]

It’s not that good

lol

[subtle lotus]

Not like this disappointing character with 2 combos

I feel like banana guard prepatch

[keen swan]

Jerry shot

[subtle lotus]

😭

[drifting pier]

No one thinks Rick is above b tier

[subtle lotus]

Jerry shot cant combo by himself

[keen swan]

That move in itself is so incredibly strong

[subtle lotus]

And?

That's all

[keen swan]

Isn’t that like the core of Tom and Jerry?

[keen swan]

Not really

[trim zealot]

Wow, a single move that’s good, but after we use it, we can be made vulnerable.

[subtle lotus]

Bro if you leave jerry there chilling

He will get killed by one armored move

[drifting pier]

Bro has a win neutral button and he’s complaining

[subtle lotus]

So there's no point on spamming it

[keen swan]

Dynamite, three tennis balls and three corks, fishing rod, cheese trap, practically the best down air in the game

[subtle lotus]

Its not an win neutral button if you dodge the jerry shot you can get an full convertion against the tom

If he spams jerry shot if you dodge it

You can just rush down tom

He got no tools that isn't dynamite now

[keen swan]

Dodging it is hard in itself to be fair

[subtle lotus]

And even if he spams dynamite you use rick so you can zone him with meeseks

[keen swan]

Unless you dodge towards it still hits you

[subtle lotus]

Dodging the move its super easy

Its like saying dodging samurai jack side b its impossible

[raven onyx]

Yall still think they are S tier even tho we got our jump branch took away

[subtle lotus]

That's skill issue not an character problem

[subtle lotus]

-_-

[keen swan]

You’re saying that like paddle on its own isn’t still good

[raven onyx]

What did i do?

[subtle lotus]

No your saying the truth

[trim zealot]

I never thought I’d see a RICK player complain about T&J after we got nerfed.

[subtle lotus]

I'm just sad about it

[raven onyx]

Ah ok

[subtle lotus]

Everyone just hate this character for being annoying

[keen swan]

He’s not fun to fight

[subtle lotus]

Its like marvin

[raven onyx]

We have no combo routes

[keen swan]

Like at all honestly

[subtle lotus]

Ofc he isn't

[raven onyx]

Now

[keen swan]

I mean he has like 4-5 projectiles

If you count cheese trap

Combos on top of that is a bit much if you ask me

[subtle lotus]

I alr fought T&J and it isn't fun, but it's easy to win ounce you khow the counterplay

[trim zealot]

Once you get past them we have nothing.

[subtle lotus]

And people things that he's top tier s tier +

Lol

[keen swan]

Sit on the other side of the map?

[raven onyx]

THANKS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS

[subtle lotus]

Theres no combo bro, we got our jump branch remove

[keen swan]

Jab jab jab down tilt

Jab jab jab neutral tilt

Jab jab jab up til

[subtle lotus]

Not true

[keen swan]

Don’t those still work?

[subtle lotus]

Not true

[trim zealot]

Does about the same damage as just full jab or jab into Jerry shot, it sucks.

[subtle lotus]

Not true on high percents

[trim zealot]

Not true.

[keen swan]

Jab jab jab Jerry shot then?

[subtle lotus]

No true

On any way

[keen swan]

Since when?

[subtle lotus]

Since the lastest patch

[trim zealot]

No conversion after that, it’s pretty much just a spicier full jab.

[subtle lotus]

We didn't have other combo than up tilt into jerry shot

And that got removed

Now we got 2 combos

[trim zealot]

Jab 3 Jerry shot is true at mid-high%

[keen swan]

I guess that’s his playstyle now? Idk I don’t play T&J

[raven onyx]

Bc people cant punish a single move

[subtle lotus]

Jab 1 dtilt at all percents and jab 3 d tilt at low percents

[subtle lotus]

Its not

You can di away

[keen swan]

Which?

[subtle lotus]

Its not true at any percent

[subtle lotus]

Paddle

Then we get no combos

[keen swan]

That’s cause of the weird front suction hitbox

[subtle lotus]

And they made paddle the most punishable move on multiversus on whiff

[trim zealot]

Up tilt. Some of us are salty at anyone who complained about up tilt before. Understandably so.

[keen swan]

And when they miss you can just go the other way

[subtle lotus]

And?

Your on endlag anyway

So you can punish

[keen swan]

Up tilt before was genuinely annoying

Not the actual move the initial frontal hitbox

[subtle lotus]

Uptilt its trash and the character got 2 combos

[keen swan]

Went way too far

[subtle lotus]

They just need to fix the uptilt front suction hitbox and bring back jump window, also remove paddle into down air and the character its balanced

[trim zealot]

That’s like complaining about anyone’s up attack having a scoop. I don’t get it, it’s only for the first hit, so not really oppressive.

[keen swan]

It’s not the scoop itself

It’s the amount of space the scoop covered

It was like overly large and hard to see because of the weird animation

[trim zealot]

Still does btw. If that’s your complaint, don’t try to beat us while we’re down about our combos being taken away.

[subtle lotus]

T&J got to be D tier right now ngl, his only good stuff its jerry shot and even spamming the move

You will get punished if you dodge it

Bc you can just rush down

Or kill jerry with one armored move

[keen swan]

Yeah but what about just making a wall of projectiles

[subtle lotus]

And since they remove the character combos

No we are even worst

[subtle lotus]

And what about dodge it once and thats all

[keen swan]

Like one side of the map, cheese trap, three tennis balls one cork neutral tilt

[subtle lotus]

Bro you can just rush from the air and thats all

He lit got no options if you do that

Or air camp

[keen swan]

Jerry shot

[subtle lotus]

Hes throwing projectiles so jerry its on the floor

[keen swan]

Up tilt

[subtle lotus]

And jerry shot doesn't cover the air trajectory

[keen swan]

Side air too

[subtle lotus]

Up tilt its garbage and theres no combo or anything to do with it

[subtle lotus]

Small hitbox

[keen swan]

It’s still a move directly above him

That prevents an aerial approach

[subtle lotus]

But its an move with an lot of whiff punish frames

So it doesnt work

Hes trash

[keen swan]

If they’re already above you and falling on you, it realistically would hit them regardless wouldn’t it?

[subtle lotus]

That's all

[trim zealot]

What’s the complaint exactly? You swapped from up tilt to projectiles. I just want to understand exactly what you dislike about T&J to try and justify us losing combos, which made it more fun to play as, and against us.

[drifting pier]

Nah bruh he jsut reflects it lol I don’t think ur very knowledgeable of this game

[keen swan]

Jerry shot

Well Jerry shot and down air

[subtle lotus]

You can dodge the meseeks and rush T&J, his on endlag of racket

[keen swan]

Cheese trap is slightly annoying at ledge but besides that it’s eh

[subtle lotus]

Cheese trap its not the big of the deal

[trim zealot]

What about them?

[drifting pier]

Bro what are u yapping about bro u act like his endlag is super long

[keen swan]

I said it’s eh

[keen swan]

They’re annoying to deal with

[subtle lotus]

An character with an horrible disadvantage csnt have no combos or self defense tools, that's lit killing the character wich its what PFG did

[keen swan]

Im not saying it’s broken

[trim zealot]

How so?

[keen swan]

It’s just very frustrating

[subtle lotus]

He won't recovery that quick to punish your jab or anything

[subtle lotus]

He is

[keen swan]

It’s like frame 7, takes priority over most of your attacks

[drifting pier]

Yes he will bro

[subtle lotus]

I dont think so

[keen swan]

Obviously it’s not op you can move out the way

[subtle lotus]

Remember bc you dodge the jerry shot

Jerry its fair away

Hes on disadvantage

[keen swan]

But it isn’t fun when you’re a Rushdown character fighting him

[subtle lotus]

He got no tools

[drifting pier]

He will

[trim zealot]

I assume you mean Jerry shot?

[keen swan]

Yeah

[drifting pier]

This guy is just trolling guys

[keen swan]

Aren’t you the guy that like hops from channel to channel hating for no reason??

[subtle lotus]

T&J with the season 3 release was an rush down with reads and 50/50, now he's an trash mess like gizmo, all people start crying and yapping about him so pfg just nerf him and buff Wonder Woman

[drifting pier]

Yah but my cause is justified 🙏🏾😂

[keen swan]

Since when was he a Rushdown??

[subtle lotus]

I played him as an rush down

[keen swan]

Ok dawg 😭

[trim zealot]

Only if you played them as rushdown. The only thing to justify playing them like that was loops though.

[subtle lotus]

He was super good rushing

[keen swan]

Oh

Well that’s not at all what I had to go through

[subtle lotus]

He could do an 50/50 and read resets

[raven onyx]

Reverse flash ahh hating

[keen swan]

Every T&J I’ve fought just camps all game

[keen swan]

lol

[subtle lotus]

That's an bad T&J

That leaves him vulnerable

[keen swan]

For the record I’m not here to hate I’m genuinely just here to discuss balancing

[subtle lotus]

The best way to play him its reading with paddle as an 50/50

[keen swan]

Unlike Mr”Scum” 🤷‍♂️

[trim zealot]

Many people play us like that even when it isn’t optimal, I actually find that trying to box with rushdown works out better than projectile camping.

[subtle lotus]

Then do the doble jerry shot then there's an 50/50 on tech

[keen swan]

That was like the one reason I hated fighting T&J

[subtle lotus]

He was really an balanced character with his property's as an rush down

[keen swan]

They always played the camping game since Finn had the arguably better combo game and better reach

[subtle lotus]

Also one thing that was really broken

Paddle into dair and upair

[drifting pier]

U wouldn’t understand I didn’t choose this path this path chose me?

[keen swan]

He’s never been broken it’s just the Tom and Jerry’s I’ve fought through all of season 2 play like this

Which is why I didn’t like him

[trim zealot]

What other choice do disjoints and mobility like that give us? Not to mention a projectile shield you can buy.

[keen swan]

If you say so man

[keen swan]

It’s justified it’s just also really unfun to fight

[subtle lotus]

Bro he was so good as an 50/50, read rewarding character

I really like him

I would trade this change

Revert the paddle branch window with jump

[keen swan]

Ok but like that 50/50 was insanely strong

[subtle lotus]

Then nerf the paddle hitbox to not pull you back

[keen swan]

Especially when he could just wait and react to whatever option you do

[subtle lotus]

And paddle into dair

[subtle lotus]

It wasn't that strong

They should rework the tech system

Also

[keen swan]

It got some random dude to the top player in the world 😭

[subtle lotus]

Should be like smash

Oh yeah harcorefox

[keen swan]

It should be optional

[subtle lotus]

Yes

[keen swan]

There’s no reason for it to be forced

[subtle lotus]

If they make that changes o T&J

Then rework tech

[keen swan]

Especially when there’s like no choice but to get hit in some situations

[subtle lotus]

Would be really good

[subtle lotus]

Oh yeah

[trim zealot]

They didn’t need it if they just kept the old attack decay.

[subtle lotus]

@trim zealot Bro do you want me to make another rework for him and send it to ajax like the last time

[keen swan]

I think if they made it so teching gave you invincibility frames specifically for the move they try to hit you with on the second bounce then the paddle 50/50 wouldn’t be as bad

Because that’s like 20-28 damage right?