Female Hunter Design Discussion

[storm island]

Emma frost in rivals is a pretty inteesting take on an established character

Its a success but the bar is pretty low in rivals icl

You dont normally see Emma built like that but they managed to juice her up and still make her look like Emma

More than I can say for legit every single other girl in the game (Angela doesn't count)

[coarse halo]

why doesn't crysta wear her overalls properly, is that supposed to be a way of communicating that she is an inventor, but she is inexperienced/naive?

a part of me really doesn't like it, because it doesn't look comfortable to wear it that way

i wonder what she would look like wearing it properly

[harsh nexus]

i think its because the launchers look like speakers and shes supposed to look like a raver

like tripp pants

which makes perfect sense to me

idk i used to wear overalls for work as a guy and i would put em down like that too

all the time

[coarse halo]

fair enough

[white totem]

She gives more of a pop star feel.

Although if she is an inventor, I feel like she should look more like Doc Brown with fully crystal hair.

[spice meadow]

yeah, i feel like the characteristics they gave her dont really fit the inventor vibe well either

[harsh nexus]

i feel like every character should be downgraded to stick figures personally

[white totem]

While I'm at it, I feel like sharing some character concepts I like that TheoryCraft could do something similar with.

[violet ocean]

Welp, y'all not just complained about Mercury's underboob and ignored Eva's exposed belly button, but now Eva's got a skin that gives both boob window and exposed thigh skin.

We gotta reevaluate how we look at the game, 'cause the hypocrisy surrounding a witch and a succubus is hilariously sad.

[coral wave]

Man I think I'm done engaging with people online

There is no possible way

That after all of these threads and all of these conversations

That someone still comes in here and thinks that we think Eva is a problem

No one arguing here has an issue with her

The fact she's so exposed fits with her character and lets us know everything we need to know about who she is and what she wants

The ENTIRE argument about Mercury is that Mercury's fucking bahonkas articulate absolutely nothing about her character and feel put of place

The other argument is that female bodies are extremely similar compared to male bodies in Supervive which is provably true

The idea that you can still come here and see hypocrisy when these arguments have been articulated well several times by several chatters (and articulated poorly by several others) is insane to me

I actually think I'm done here

[bright crown]

kay bye

[white totem]

And nobody’s argued that the next female Hunters should be “fat”, “ugly” or any other strawman they’ve concocted either.

@violet ocean If you’re not going to come in here and say something substantial, then shut the hell up and ignore the thread.

[harsh nexus]

i know one person who does

[harsh nexus]

DAM she looks good in this

[storm island]

You guys just type bullshit bro

Nobody cares if eva has her girls out she supposed to be slutty

Mercury has her fucking tetas out perma and shes supposed to be an alchemist witch thing

Theres not even a logical reason her girls r out she harasses me with her booba for fun

Thats the problem

[white totem]

The people who hijack these threads don’t care. They just want to derail actual decency so they can control how women are portrayed.

And when you call them out for it, they play the “I’m actually acting in good faith, trust me!” card.

[violet ocean]

Nah, 'cause we're talking about pixels on a screen. Why is this type of stuff still an ongoing discussion when they give little to no impact to gameplay? Well, that answer's simple; either a subsection of the female players feel inadequate compared to the female characters (depending on fandom/community) or another subsection of the playerbase just goes "this is too exposing, give them Disney's Pander Treatment."

Anyways, those are just my two cents calling certain groups out. Hope y'all have a nice Christmas in four months.

[white totem]

So, you’re calling random people you know jackshit about ugly or saying something a grifter on Youtube would say, and then wrapping it in some pseudo-intellectual paragraph.

If that’s not proving my point, I don’t know what is.

[white totem]

anyways, bumping this

[spice meadow]

yeah the skin team is definetly cooking HARD

[spice meadow]

first design would actually fit the game well the rest is kinda shit ngl

[spice meadow]

Youre just an asshole, although i also think that this discussion makes no sense, acting like oversexualization of women isnt a Problem within our society is the most stupid take that has been in these channels by far and ive been here the entire time

"oooh you just feel inadequate" like that is the issue, not that it normalizes something that is just toxic to society and culture

If you dont like people enough to engage with what theyre talking about, why even bother at all, youre pathetic. You wont change anyones mind like that, you just come in here to dunk on people you disagree with so you can feel like ure superior for having ur own opinion

[violet ocean]

A bit harsh that you view me that way, but at least to some degree, you agree that it doesn't make sense for a subsection of a community to complain/discuss about female characters like this. If this was just a discussion about hunter designs in general, it would've been a different story.

So the fact that a discussion about specifically female hunter designs only tells me that not everyone has let go of Mercury's design when she was revealed in full. Thus born from it, a part of the community wants to make more streamline designs for the female hunters.

So take this as you will, I'm calling out the complainers that have no business forcing their views into something as simple and fun as a video game. On top of all of that, I never claimed to be superior nor would I view anyone else as my own. I just want these type of discussions and any future discussions similar to just be nonexistent. Then again, it's not like there's any rules set in place to prevent anything heinous from happening, the whole server's basically a glass house.

[bright crown]

the fact people no matter what happens has gotten this soft is insane to me. lmao the genuine fact people act like sexual things can co-exists with each other is insane. its bc ever since we got all these fucking "genders" mixiing everything together is insane. its ok to believe u are something but dont start saying "oh this isnt sexual or this is sexual" just bc u are super insecure about your body. get over yourself. grow the fuck up. @white totem espcially you , you whiny bitch. you too @

[glass valve]

Yeeaah nah you all are crazy about people been sexualized, grow up itd just a game

[delicate heath]

Im now curious of how many total comments have been made between all of the threads about this topic

and how many people have changed their point of view

From any of the sides of this convo

[fluid hazel]

its always the same people beating the same horse

[delicate heath]

Ik but

[fluid hazel]

no flexibility on such threads

[delicate heath]

Its so funny

[fluid hazel]

dementia arc ig

[spice meadow]

yes i can agree with that much. I also dont think its a big issue, mainly because i dont believe that theyre agressively taking advantage of it to purposefully make bland designs, but much rather them just trying to build a roster that is appealable to a broader audience so that people dont drop out of the game because they cant find anything that fits them enough.
That aside, asking to moderate discussion is just asking for censorship lol. People can have stronger feelings about stuff and are free to express them lmao

[delicate heath]

I think it probably has reached the 10k mark

or maybe the 5k

[fluid hazel]

the whole threads all combined prob have like 30k messages

[delicate heath]

You would think

That people would stop this

But i guess baiting and switching is just that fun

[spice meadow]

yeah that while it shouldve been ended with "its not really that bad" is crazy to me

Its mainly because of some bad actors that just cant let it go

[delicate heath]

Like, i find so funny that anytime i decide to look around the discussion tab

Theres always one of these

[spice meadow]

Its always the same lately

[fluid hazel]

i dont think either side wants to agree on the points of the other

[spice meadow]

just getting renamed by OP

[fluid hazel]

so its always pure fiesta

[spice meadow]

Theres no agreement to be made

[delicate heath]

At this point

[fluid hazel]

literally twitter moment

[spice meadow]

the side that made this thread is completely unreasonable

Theyre asking for everything to be the way they want to while its absolutely unrealistic to focus on that hardpoint and have a roster that appeals to the broad audience without much higher risk

[delicate heath]

No side is right because this is fundamentally a point of view thing

Which is undebatable

Because at the end of the day

TC is the one designing

and they decide what they want to push

Sure, you can give feedback about it

[spice meadow]

Im not saying theyre completely wrong, but asking for it in the current gaming landscape without the game doing exceptionally well is insane

[delicate heath]

But like

[fluid hazel]

i mean if they cater to korea/china its normal to have such designs i would say

[delicate heath]

I think 30k messages is more than enough

[spice meadow]

If they cater to gamers, this is what they go for

[fluid hazel]

dw in 2 weeks when maybe new woman comes it will be forgotten and discussed again

[spice meadow]

The general gamer just wants designs that look good to them, which just involves good looking classic designs

Thats why we have edgy slim dudes, good looking women all with a bunch of ego

[delicate heath]

tapping the sign again

[spice meadow]

there wont be any new discussion threads, ill likely just close them and link this one if i see them, you can @ me

[delicate heath]

bless ya

[spice meadow]

they can use this as their outlet but its genuienly been enough

We dont need another thread because the skirt on the new eva skin is 1mm too short

[fluid hazel]

so its censoring again 🥸 !!!

[spice meadow]

I dont care honestly

[fluid hazel]

good

[spice meadow]

The only censorship that has taken place is how they went ridiculous and unreasonable enough to ever even have a realistic chance for devs to read these channels

[delicate heath]

is it finally time for the real discussions?

Is it time for "wheres the dance emotes?" discussion?

[spice meadow]

real.

How am i ever going to BM my enemy for real if i dont have a fortnite dance ong

[delicate heath]

Its a fucking BR game

wheres the dances

wheres the "Right foot left foot" griddy beebo

Like

Get your shit together TC

[cedar eagle]

Need hudson doing the rump shaker

[spice meadow]

NOW THIS GUY GETS IT

[cedar eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/boog-open-season-twerk-gif-24878731

Hudson doing this

[delicate heath]

"This rift needs a hero!"

[cedar eagle]

Omw to be the hero this rift needs

[delicate heath]

God

I would laugh so hard if everytime you shoot it farted

Like the stock sound fart that everyone uses

in videos

[cedar eagle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1397895406842810418/1397895407261978755/image.png?ex=68cc8e4c&is=68cb3ccc&hm=5cd079a3d8ed04130ba61bd9b2fb473b246b20b899ee7a0d1f03b5137ffbea7f&

How he fires

This bugs still in the game

[fluid hazel]

ngl it would be cooler if he shoot this way

all the time

[white totem]

Imagine pinging someone calling them a whiny bitch and then leaving.

Couldn’t be me.

[storm island]

Just stupid

Is there no more intelligent conversation to be had about designs of women in supervive

Is everyone just gonna be hopping into threads rubbing 2 braincells together with dumbass takes like "your booba ain't as big as hers thats why your upset!"

[white totem]

I swear it feels like that sometimes.

[storm island]

Also nobody said they wanted to streamline the female hunters designs bro i want them to be LESS streamlined

GIVE THEM MORE DETAIL

MORE CHARACTER

[white totem]

And it’s always some variation of the same…5 strawmen.

[storm island]

I ain't typing in this shit no more bro over the course of the argument everyone who disagrees with me gets dumber

Nothing to talk abt

[white totem]

I’d just interact with people who actually have something to say. They’re the ones who have variety in what they say instead of parroting the same arguments.

The guy who was pushing the whole "you're just jealous!!!!!" argument also left, which is good.

If the game somehow fails because the devs add a couple unique looking female Hunters on top of the ones we already have, then it probably deserves to fail.

[white totem]

Hell, they could go for something like MVC2 Tron Bonne and it would work.

[dense jolt]

idc about any of this make the characters cool like deadlock and talk about deadlock instead

https://tenor.com/view/deadlock-deadlock-game-deadlock-doorman-deadlock-men-kissing-two-men-kissing-gif-12332273635418394661

[white totem]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1414396689065967696

[dense jolt]

oh I’ll never use that containment thread

[white totem]

Yeah, fair enough.

Also, it's weird seeing so many people who think like this.

[spice meadow]

also told me in dms to take my own life lol

[white totem]

Oh yeah, that checks out with how they were acting.

[molten herald]

Here is the beginning and end of my argument against OP:

1. OP is willing to start a campaign to try and diversify the female body types in Supervive.

2. OP is NOT willing to play Supervive.

All you need to know

[harsh nexus]

the irony

[dense jolt]

What about me :3

[white totem]

Also:

[fluid hazel]

counterpoint:

[white totem]

Counter-counterpoint: I rarely used Cast relics until the point.

[fluid hazel]

such things are always in settings and its obvious

literally shows that you arent a "gamer"

show your playtime then

[white totem]

I'm not sure why you're trying to make this a gameplay discussion when it's clearly a design discussion.

[fluid hazel]

show the playtime to devalue my argument then

[white totem]

Only if you give me a good reason playtime has anything to do with how important arguments are.

Otherwise, you're sounding like the kind of person who says "pronouns in bio, opinion discarded".

[fluid hazel]

ah i love the fact you try to frame me as someone who is bigoted so you can escape from the fact you are acting in malice and not even playing the game but still somehow having more time in such discussions

it doesnt matter if i use strong or weak argument you will skip it as every argument in this thread

dont plant obvious strawman next time

[maiden spire]

you can just check since it's linked to their Discord

But there is still some merit to what they are saying, I personally just want more non-humanoid characters

I love Mercury, but I do admit, her model is pretty bad imo

[fluid hazel]

am blocked

[maiden spire]

23 hours

[fluid hazel]

14 games

[maiden spire]

Mercury's face needs a rework, it feels very off

14 games 23 hours what

[fluid hazel]

dude didnt start using skills and has bot games because new player

23h of sitting ingame launcher

dude is even tryin to bring this thread into other ones and now in memes

[white totem]

I fail to see how that has to do anything with a design discussion.

[fluid hazel]

people like him make such threads bad

[white totem]

It just sounds like you're grasping at straws.

[fluid hazel]

you are the one trying to bring this thread by using other channels

:)

but at least its entertainment same reason you do it no

[white totem]

Who said anything about that? I just forwarded it because it is indeed a meme.

You try and act like I'm the one acting in malice, but then say that everything I do is to forward some kind of cause.

[fluid hazel]

#1416261933065044029 message
#1417992032000933948 message
#1408700736556105768 message
#1417709985911279696 message

[white totem]

SUPERVIVE's problems can be traced back to similar cause. Who would have guessed it?

[fluid hazel]

ye definitely its supervives biggest problem

[white totem]

Plus, people would play SUPERVIVE more often if they fixed the issues going on, so I don't see why samey female Hunters don’t count.

[harsh nexus]

i wanna see playtime this week not just general playtime

[harsh nexus]

no one said you were malicious they said you were annoying and beating the shit out of a dead horse any and everywhere you could

and that you pretend to play this game so that you can talk about this weird niche issue every day

which is literally true

[storm island]

What about legit everyone else who wants more diverse female hunters

[white totem]

Bart isn’t that kind of person, but I imagine that kind of person would use the same excuses you’re heard before.

[hasty magnet]

Seriously folks, find something less gatekeepy to argue against the desire for more varied female designs. The lack of recent play or x amount of play or being a "true gamer" is a: irrelevant to the argument and b: seems weirdly focused on one of several folks who expressed that sentiment.

[harsh nexus]

at this point no one is really even arguing that theyre just commenting on how funny it is that this guy literally does not play supervive but is in every thread, every day, talkin about female design

because it is an odd thing to do and people find that interesting

[fluid hazel]

Ironically he cries about derailing threads but does the same on other ones

By talking about designs there the lack of self reflection is incredible

[spice meadow]

bro is acting like the game is doing that well lmao

[spice meadow]

You will be taken less seriously if you ask for an ideoligical change within a community u dont even engage with further than a discord lol

It absolutely DOES make sense to bring that up

the only times where this shouldnt matter is about objective talking points

but this ENTIRE discussion is based on subjective opinions

[spice meadow]

Because most people care alot less about a diverse roster than they care about gameplay on video games, otherwise all the games that came out advertising their diversity mainly wouldve been huge successes instead of dirt in a ditch lol

why would you even bring that up, that argument makes 0 sense lol

[fluid hazel]

whole thread makes no sense

[spice meadow]

I think the thread does honestly, you can always ask for more unique designs, i want some vile ass monsters that look like they jumped out of one of lovecrafts books myself for example

[fluid hazel]

i hope inside he is ultra ragebaiter (which only makes sense mostly)

[spice meadow]

But the agressiveness and also the things they ask for is so far from reality its insane

Like i have seen my fare share of delulu on this discord

this beats it all

easily

[fluid hazel]

been talked already this is why i think it makes no sense there was already 1 thread now abandoned for no reason

[spice meadow]

hes gotten ragebaited himself so many times that i genuienly feel like he cares about this stuff lmao

[spice meadow]

yeah i am already closing new threads and link to this one

If u see new ones, just @ me

[fluid hazel]

he would play then and wouldnt give balance feedback

common sense to that he tried discussing balance while no playing

[spice meadow]

You can have the delulu in here, but dont try to fill up the entire discussion tab with the same threads so u can bump them and feel like the devs have to look at them now

[spice meadow]

Some people just want to make the world look like they want it without wanting to live in it

[fluid hazel]

but why dead game

[spice meadow]

Like humankind has its fair share of societys collectively making their living situation worse over ideals

and then regretting it lol

[fluid hazel]

it would be more productive to find a game thats bigger and advocate there

[spice meadow]

certainly not because of character designs, much rather because of kit diversity than their looks lol

Tetra and Oath are the only "tanks" we have in the game

but theres no CC focused brawler and guard titan

[fluid hazel]

i mean he decided to talk about design in dead game and not in a living one

[spice meadow]

and making the game trios instead of squads ruined alot of the roles within groups to the point healers are barely meta like ever

awnd t he devs still havent been able to fix it

games fast paced, if you dont have 3 combatants and dont have characters enabled by supports enough but still have reasonably counterplay with all 3 member squads that dont just try to create a buffball, itll feel like absolute shit

and so far theyve kept em on the weak side because of this

you just cant pick as many answers anymore

like so much got worse over time

Designs are not the reason the games doing bad

they all look phenomenal, no matter if diverse or not

[spice meadow]

Because the living ones literally are successfull enough to do it occasionally enough for people to dunk on you if u ever bring this up

[fluid hazel]

fair

[spice meadow]

And they usually have multiple posts with a ton of data to back it up

Like league is a great example

they have multiple posts of why they dont do monster designs as often anymore

theyre soaking up much more money, they have to change them much more often with abilitys changing since animations sometimes dont add up with the model anymore

and then people still usually dont like them as much as a cute girl

or a hot dude

like not even close

The only reason they do it is literally for the love of the game

Supervive isnt even half as successfull

demanding for that shit here when the expectancy of players and demand is just completely different is so fucking stupid and dumb, you have to create a much bigger shift in minds than trying to push devs for it

They dont need to craft ur ideoligcal ideal of a world, they needa make money and express themselves within the artform they chose, since they likely get payed scraps and work way too many hours lol

If they end up making something in that direction praise it instead of nagging that they dont make more lol, if youre just annoying about everything u want people will never listen to you

If people actually start picking the ellunas, the reksais, the skarners more often than the rest and start wanting these cool as fuck designs more often, thats when u achieve true change

Not by trying to make a small devteam with a ton of problems on their first game do what u want to by being annoying as hell

[sudden hound]

Yeah but we could use one female monster champ

Yes their in general not as successful but since there are already a ton of typical hot girl designs one monster would appease the people who do play monster champs

Also we only have one "monster" character and id argue hes not really that much of monster

[storm island]

I mean nobody is saying thjs

The person whos drawing the characters isnt the guy who took away squads

[white totem]

If I showed younger me this, I probably wouldn't have been so averse to blocking people on Discord.

[storm island]

The argument isnt that they need to craft my ideological supervuve designs for the game to do well

The argument is that the designs are fucking boring as shit

[white totem]

I'd argue that even a non "monster" champ would work for the female cast.

[storm island]

Making characters that look cooler that have more cohesive and intrestinf designs can also bring people to the game

Idk why we are acting like supervive throws money into a furnace if they dont make another barbie doll

[white totem]

I've brought up Kushana and Strika before, but I think anything the male cast has can be applied to the female cast.

[sudden hound]

Yeah but imo one monster would be nice

Im talking in general to since the guys only have kingpin

[storm island]

Like it feels like people dont even read what's said here

All the argument is that a more diverse and intresting roster is better for the game

[white totem]

"but TheoryCraft is a small indie company who's brains can't do more than one thing at a time! 🥺"

It sort of feels like people say that sometimes.

[storm island]

Why r we posting stupid shit and being obtuse and pointing out how beauty standards would make the character less succesful and how mercury is in retrograde and how squads are gone and how the meta sucks like who fucking cares

[sudden hound]

No offense im not reading the 200 something messages in here

[storm island]

Im mainly talking about the mod gyy

Who did infact read what was posted here

And is still chatting stupid shit that nobody is talking about

[storm island]

Like sure all this stuff exists

But theres tons and tons and tons of proof that non traditional beauty standards in female characters can work and be succesful

[sudden hound]

Indeed

[spice meadow]

I didnt make the argument by aiming at people making that statement but to say that the game doing well is important for the success of the entire thing as a work of art lol

[storm island]

Yes everyone with eyes can see that the game has a bigger issue than balance

[storm island]

I just dont see what this has to do with the topic tho

Like everyone inherently agrees that a game doing well is important

[spice meadow]

Hard disagree what, they literally have half as many good designs as they have basic ones xD?

[storm island]

In terms of the ladies bro I just dont see it

[white totem]

...You know, I was only going to bring up Griselma, but I think nearly all of Gigantic's female characters are great examples of what to go for.

[spice meadow]

Alot since this is a videogame and they have to do well comercially not fit ur idea of good designs

[sudden hound]

Fair but I mean some designs aren't bad like oath,myth,kingpin,etc

[storm island]

I like tetra and elluna sure and bishop is cool I guess

Everyone else can kick rocks

[storm island]

Should've specified i was talking about the ladies

Myth is uh.. a design

She sure exists

[sudden hound]

Then yeah its tetra,elluna, and myth for me.

[white totem]

"They put an ab shirt on her! So distinct!"

[storm island]

What is the basis for the idea that a non traditional design will not do well commercially

[sudden hound]

To bad that game died.

[fluid hazel]

https://tenor.com/bJ7l8.gif

nerryl be like

just to be ignored

XD

[spice meadow]

Because they usually dont in most media.

[storm island]

Whats the correlation in most media to supervive

[white totem]

Don't you know? The people that are running these kinds of companies who would burn down the rainforest for a quick buck should be the ones we trust.

[storm island]

Don't you think supervive should be compared to its peers?

Not to "most media"

[spice meadow]

its honestly the other way around bro 💀, the amount of shit they pull just to simply not be able to argue against the fact that devs just do whats comercially viable unless their game is doing well enough for them to take risks

Its literally not deeper than that

Its the most delusional shit ever

[white totem]

Even outside of its peers, distinct designs don't seem to impact certain shows all that much.

[sudden hound]

I mean compared to league yeah its alot of thoose designs but league also has alot of thoose designs. Ive seen very few mobas without fan service designs

[fluid hazel]

well true but still you did wall for nothing ;D

1k messages and still no legit argumenting

[white totem]

In the case of this example, people whining about them were probably just free promotional material.

[storm island]

I dont think thr argument is that thr game shouldn't have fan service designs

Fan service is not an inherently bad thing

[fluid hazel]

this thread is literally escapism in nutshell

[storm island]

The argument is just that there should be some more diverse designs

That dosent mean that there cannot be fan service

[spice meadow]

I mean yeah this literally just proves that no matter how right you are, people that live in a dreamworld do it for a reason lol

[spice meadow]

literally

[storm island]

Just that they should do something different every once in a while

[white totem]

a Shadow Weaver-like character would go so hard, now that I think about it

[glad ermine]

Perma yapping about a non-existing issue for several days gratz!

[fluid hazel]

having literal people argumenting would be cooler but too hard to find ig

[storm island]

Mod guy left me on delivered bro

This is crazy

[sudden hound]

Agreed sometimes. I will admit i have a bias against fan service and that thers to much of it in this genere but sometimes it is good like eve or Evelyn

[white totem]

I haven't even watched this show, but I just might now that I've seen how good the designs look.

[storm island]

Yeah like eve is a great example of fan service nobody wants that to never exist ever. But every once in a while you want a fuckin poppy or a naafiri

Those designs should be allowed to exist too

I dont want to take away an ahri but Camille is my fucking shit

I dont see why people are so opposed to just have a more diverse cast

[sudden hound]

Really scissor grandma? But I mean fair i guess it is unique

[white totem]

Probably because of society bullshit.

[storm island]

Its fuckin baller bro the kit the design the fucking vo all of it

They cooked so hard

[spice meadow]

I have responded to so many stupid arguments in this thread already.
Like I can imagine how u were leaning in on ur chair thinking u finally found that one thing thats gonna change anything now hitting a smug smile when u sent that message.
Brother, it is a literal fact that historically, people have had a general idea of what they like broadly as a society and most art and culture within that society during that timeframe has literally been either something that fully dives into these things or had small adjustments to it.
Im not going to limit a games success into one specific corner that u think fits it just so we can start argueing wether things are within that field u chose or not instead.

[white totem]

Some greedy person probably implanted the idea that only certain types of female characters sell well to control women.

[sudden hound]

Oh yeah the voice is good but imo she could look more mechanical. Thats just my opinion tough

[spice meadow]

Now we also start with conspiracy theories

xD

[fluid hazel]

XD

[white totem]

Here's the problem, though: You're full of shit.

Instead of trying to discuss certain designs that can work for one reason or another, you're locked into this idea that only one kind of design will sell well.

[storm island]

"Nah man I cant compare the game to others like it or even to the wider community. Im gonna instead say historical we have had beauty standards! That makes sense and is not fucking stupid"

[spice meadow]

"i think someone mustve made people think that pretty stuff is pretty!"

[storm island]

Yes nerryl beauty standards have existed historically

[spice meadow]

yes and theyve changes historically

[white totem]

By the logic there, we should allow people to have slaves if they want to.
for the love of god, this is a joke

[storm island]

Glad u shared that with the class for 150th time

[fluid hazel]

????????????????????????????????????????????

[spice meadow]

In ancient greek times people idealized thicker women for example, that doesnt change that people like certain things now and its not up to the devs that change that.

[white totem]

That's not the point of this, though.

[sudden hound]

Why would beauty standards matter for a game though. I mean even characters that are designed to not be attractive still get a fair amount of players like Elise

[spice meadow]

Oh so we get to decide what our point is every time someone has a point against it now? xD

[white totem]

The point is that we can add on to the cast with unique female Hunters, and it won't cause SUPERVIVE to go belly up.

[sudden hound]

People play Elise and her model is ugly as hell

[spice meadow]

Because it sells.

[storm island]

Now what im saying is that 1. Those have changed over time and the beauty standards of today are much more inclusive to different sizes than they used to be
2. Supervive doesn't exist in a vacuum it exists in response to the games and art around it. And the games and art around it are much more inclusive and receptive to more experimental character designs pulling the beauty standards card is a cop out and you know it

[fluid hazel]

can we just get rid of nerryl mods?!!!

[sudden hound]

Elise sells and shes ugly

[fluid hazel]

????????????

thats the biggest cap

[spice meadow]

"i dont like something and it sells, so everyone must dislike it"

The logic lmao

[storm island]

You have no basis for the idea that a diverse design would sell less other than what league dosent do monsters anymore and everyone else dosent do it?

[spice meadow]

Maybe people like it?

[fluid hazel]

her literal lore is luring men

[storm island]

Thats flimsy bro

[fluid hazel]

because of looks

[sudden hound]

People can like it but its a different design

[fluid hazel]

btw

[sudden hound]

Point is its different from leagues usual fan service design and it sells

[white totem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JmVjdYE7qY

[spice meadow]

Oh that was just one example on league specifically they talked about why they do lux skins more too, which was literally the same reasoning, on top of people literally buying lux skins without even playing her since they just like how she looks and collect her skins because of it.

[sudden hound]

She's not made to be attractive (also her outdated model doesn't help)

[spice meadow]

Theres a ton of studies too

[storm island]

Link them then?

[white totem]

They're probably just going to be as flimsy as a flan in a wooden cabinet.

[fluid hazel]

I literally told you her lore and you are saying she's not made to be attractive

[spice meadow]

We live in an age with AI and Search engines and people still ask you to link shit 💀

Cant be asked, genuienly

[storm island]

Oh so you bring up stupid arguments

I say they are stupid

[white totem]

You have the burden of proof here, not Fenrir.

[storm island]

Ur like well theres studies

[spice meadow]

No i just dont care enough because ull literally just shrug it off with the next bs like u did the entire time

[storm island]

And rhen ur like I cba to link them

Yeah ur definitely to be taken seriously

[spice meadow]

Become game devs and make another concorde so we can collectively make fun of you, would be a better waste of ur time than this thread honestly lol

[sudden hound]

Lore don't really mean crap when it comes to designs. Just look at mf or most female skins

Or kiasa

[storm island]

Because you kept sayinf stupid shit with no backing

I legit asked u what informs your opinion and u were like common sense

Come on bro

[fluid hazel]

Denial

[storm island]

I know ur not debate club champ but this is getting ridiculous

[spice meadow]

Brother, if you doubt that good looking characters arent more popular and call it stupid thats ur kinda losss of braincells to put up with not me

lmao

Live in denial all u want

[storm island]

I didnt doubt that they were more popular i said that experimental designs are not an immediate money drain

[spice meadow]

U have the entire internet to teach u and u still choose to be ignorant to live in ur happy fantasy world where people like everything u like

[storm island]

The opposite of what you said

[fluid hazel]

Master debating in this thread is big

[storm island]

You just make up shit I say in your head and argue against that

Try reading what im actually typing

[spice meadow]

Oh yeah ure right, making a human being definetly isnt going to take less time than making up an entire own creature and making custom animations to a bone structure entirely different from a human being

Youre right

[storm island]

What rhe fuck is this time argument

Designers are grown ass people

They get paid to do this

Im not gonna worry about how much time it would take

Thats their fucking job

[sudden hound]

Okay then why does kaisa need to be in basically a skin tight flesh suit? Like yes that kept her alive in the void but by that logic wouldn't it be corrupting her or at least attach to part of her face

[storm island]

I hope it takes extra time actually so they can get paid more

[fluid hazel]

You literally can Ctrl 5 the mask

It's symbiote

[spice meadow]

So why not use the money to make something that works and express within other details, like for example (call me crazy on this) cool abilities and animations, than wasting money on trying to take a massive risk to make something completely new just to appeal to 2 people that are active in this thread, one of them isnt even playing the game 💀

[storm island]

The kaisa prototype designs were so cool BTW as a side note

[spice meadow]

youre right!

[storm island]

The braided hair with a rail gun was kino

Wish they shipped that

[fluid hazel]

Also corruption is not radioactivity or whateevr

In cinematic she literally uses helmet

[white totem]

Because good game design is all about taking risks.

[storm island]

If you want to make a gameplay thread about cool abilities and animation go ahead

Thats not the point of this thread

I already said and proves multiple times its not a waste of money

[fluid hazel]

You know knights didn't go asleep with helmet?

[storm island]

Ur just bullshittinf

You have no proof for it being a waste of money

Dont want to link study dont want to substantiate anything just wants to pop in the thread talk shit and act like ur right

If u had even a tiny bit of proof for it I would at least respect the effort

[spice meadow]

Was a huge miss on my end too, but that was also one of the worst phases of design in general, if you look back at what they released before and after. I mean tbf they were way above 100 designs at that point already with how many champs they released and its refreshing to see they still manage to make some cool designs here and there. Although naafiri being the monster champ we all waited for back then was kind of a punch in the face.

That doesnt mean that her abilitys werent tho. She had 3 different playstyles and coined an entire poke meta in proplay all by herself and her skins afaik sold extremely well too.

[sudden hound]

Im aware of that but honestly I dont see why her face looks normal. She doesn't looks like a person who survived the void with a symbote. She looks like a lady in a skinsuit with two big giant meat pods hovering on her sholders.

[spice meadow]

Making something new is.

[white totem]

They probably think being a mod is all the proof they need.

[spice meadow]

Making something uncommon look good is just hard.

[sudden hound]

Her visual design is bad her gameplay is fine

[storm island]

I wish they just shipped any of the prototypes for her

They were so much better than what we got

[sudden hound]

Real

[storm island]

And I one trick her bro I was extremely happy with her design until I saw those prototypes bro

[fluid hazel]

WHY WOULDNT IT LOOK NORMAL WHEN SHES WEARING A HELMET

we dont know how void works

[sudden hound]

We kinda do somewhat

[storm island]

I mean i doubt she popped out and immediately went to SR

She probably did do her fuckin makeup

[fluid hazel]

why would she have scars or whatever when she has wearing a living suit

which absorbs

[sudden hound]

Also since the voids motif is to learn then destroy why wouldn't the thing take control of an eye or something

[white totem]

Yeah, no shit.
But people do it anyways, and people are successful with it.

[storm island]

I always thought the suit was trying to learn how to be human

[sudden hound]

Then it would actually look like something from the void rather than just a skinsuit

[storm island]

Like belveth kinda

[spice meadow]

I gave u multiple logical reasons why it takes more time and also is just harder to do from a game dev standpoint. Im not super good at character design i mainly make weapons and animate reload animations and all kinda stuff on handling a weapon (dismantling etc) and know enough to tell u that it definetly is harder to work on a weapon platform that isnt off an ak or ar15 either. Its just something that you cant apply ur skills on as directly as u can with something that has 100s of ways uve done before to get the job done.

If you are as interested as u pretend just look that shit up urself. Its hard, theres less people doing it on a high level the more uncommon things get. Thats not just in 3D Design thats in any proffession. If you need a study to prove you that, literally just google it and ull find something. Im not going to entertain ur delusional brainrot lmao

[storm island]

Like rhe fucking uh symbiote

[storm island]

Bro i dont care that its hard

Thats what they get paid to do

Im not saying they should make only monsters until the end of time I dont care how hard it is

[spice meadow]

Yes rarely. Then we have stuff like genshin just making 1000 same looking girls for example and i guarantee u theyre generating more hype on media than any of these characters ever did.

[storm island]

But as a designer trying to fill a niche you have to challenge yourself

[spice meadow]

Thats just how the world works

[sudden hound]

Belveth is different since hers is a disguise and im not arguing the suit wants to learn how to be human but if it wanted that then why is still attached to kaisa?

[storm island]

Your there for work not for play

[sudden hound]

There's a reason alot of people clown on genshin for that design choice

[spice meadow]

Making something that is hard to make usually takes up more ressources. Also again not just in 3D design, any proffession

Thats why its hard to make

[storm island]

Like it probably will be harder than mercury considering you cant jjst open a boob window and call it a day

[spice meadow]

It takes more time too usually

[storm island]

I mean all these factors dont matter to me

I dont care if it takes longer

I dont care if its difficult

[spice meadow]

I clown on it too, but theres no deniying that people broadly like it enough for literally the same slop character to drop the next month with similarily strong media presence every single time

[storm island]

If theres an audience and theres a niche to fill and its alr been proven it wouldn't be an immediate money drain they should do it

[white totem]

A kids show from 1999 got this better than some people here do.

[storm island]

Im not gonna baby the designers by not telling them to do things that are hard

Life is fuckin hard

[sudden hound]

Fair i can't argue with that.

[spice meadow]

Cool that u think that, but with that mindset ure simply just unlikely to turn a profit, simply because that kind of approach often results in bad outcomes, which i think this game just cant risk on a 1k playerbase. Make a good game first, take risks later.

"lets push more money and effort to make something only a few people will end up liking while our game is literally dying"

is like the most stupid take on this entire discord

[white totem]

SUPERVIVE is a good game, though.

[spice meadow]

How would you know u barely played it lol

[white totem]

Now they can take risks.

[storm island]

If the argument is that the very appearance of a risk is bad enough so that they shouldn't even try why even have the game open

[spice meadow]

1k playerbase sure bro

[sudden hound]

I mean you want more players add controller support and put it on consoles. (Yes it unrelated and it would take forever but still)

[storm island]

Are we so far in the hole we cant make anything intresting?

[white totem]

I know how the game plays, and it's really fun.

Plus, I would play the game more often if there were more unique female Hunters and less mindless consumers like you defending Barbie dolls.

[storm island]

We r back to the few people will like it argument when its alr been said 16 quadrilluon times that a non traditional design dosent automatically mean fewer people will like it i cba

[spice meadow]

Theres just better risks to take when making a game. When everyone tells u ur game isnt fun, reviews are a ton of people complaining about game mechanics or bringing up how the monetization is bad or theres meta progression etc, you dont turn around to take risks on designs lol

[storm island]

Its like a time loop with you

[spice meadow]

Yes thats what it literally means, feeding a niche gets niche people, feeding into what the general public likes broadly will get a broader spectrum

[storm island]

I jjst dont see the correlation here am I stupid? Like yeah the game could be better in other areas but dosent that just mean you can fix those and make interesting designs

[spice meadow]

When the other areas make people quit u dont "fix" designs noone but 2 people with one not even playing the game complain about lol

just because u type the same arguments in the same discussion channel that have been literally argued to dust 100000x it doesnt make u important

[white totem]

So have a variety of female Hunters, then.

[storm island]

I mean im just the guy you can see

[spice meadow]

saying that they dont is insane

[white totem]

I don't know how you keep shooting down everything aside from being some incel from the Gamergate era.

[spice meadow]

????????????

XD?

[storm island]

You dont know how many people could potentially be turned away because you dont have anything intresting to offer them

[white totem]

"WAOW, THE ACCESSORIES MAKE THEM SO UNIQUE!!!!"

[spice meadow]

Saying they dont have anything interesting to offer to you is fine

them turning away people from a niche is fine

but saying that these designs wouldnt work on a broader audience is insane

Supervives hunters look amazing imo

[storm island]

I think half of em do

The other half r just boring

[spice meadow]

I think all of them have very high qualitys models and just look good

are they super creative? Argueable but saying they look bad or boring is insane

They can to you, but i dont think theres many people that think like that

[storm island]

Deadlock has a much more varied roster and you can see how people are latching onto people who are cool and actually intresting

You can say the same for league or for OW (kinda)

You can look at each of supervives contemporaries and find this

And not to say that dosent happen in vive

[white totem]

"BUT IT VALVE GAME!"

[storm island]

Like im a felix one trick for a reason

[fluid hazel]

this thread turns into fighting air

[storm island]

But theres far less of it because far less of them are reslly intresting

[sudden hound]

Shut. There's a reason why valve games almost always succeed

[white totem]

If you're not gonna say people should learn from one of the most influential video game companies in history, then you know jack shit about game design.

[storm island]

Because rhey are good and intrestinf and they dont play it safe

[sudden hound]

Yes

[white totem]

Yeah, I could say Nerryl is full of hot air.

[storm island]

Obv deadlock is a good game irrespective of design but you can see how the care put into design and lore and character are hooking people

Vive does not have that to that level

[spice meadow]

Deadlock also only does well if they actually do content releases that meaningfully advance the game, (without bringing in some weird meta progression lol). They might appeal to more people because they have a bunch of cool designs, but the reason has gone up from 10-20 players back to 60 is literally the latest big patch

[storm island]

I could make a whole separate thread about that tbh

[sudden hound]

Oh yeah like image if supervive got a bebop type character

[spice meadow]

lmao

[storm island]

Lets not get crazy

Everyone but bebop

#LASHMAINSUNITE

[sudden hound]

I mean hes really well designed but I get it

Besides beebo can technically do what he does

[storm island]

I can agree that the reason its up is because of the huge update yeh but I think the reason it's staying up is the insane chatacter work

No stinkers in design except for one very ugly Japanese woman

[sudden hound]

They added a literal bellhop

Thats peak

[storm island]

Everyone has care and love put into the way they look

[white totem]

you take it back, Yamato's design is peak

[spice meadow]

Like i cant agree more that gaming would be 10x more interesting if we would push for unique designs again like we had to in the early 2000s, simply because hardware was ass and making something good looking out of the few polygons we had wasnt really realistic.
But you cant ask for change without having a reasonable way of actually having a business that works.

[storm island]

I mean before we go in circles

I have a thought on this

Why would I care whether it's financially viable to make a unique design

Like obv I think it is but for the sake of argument

Why would I care

Im not a shareholder

I'm not on the board

[spice meadow]

youre delusional if you think that the artstyle is the reason why people play the game honestly. Its the first 3D moba that actually advanced on the idea enough to make something that works. They have a ton of stuff in the game to make aiming feel like a secondary addition instead of making it an aim game like most other attempts of making thise while actually also maintaining good balance with abilitys to not be as ability focused as smite is for example. They did a really good job of making a gameplay loop that works, thats why people play it

[storm island]

I just want an intresting design

[sudden hound]

You wouldn't but if a character doesn't sell then theorcraft gets less incentives to make more of thoose designs

[spice meadow]

If good design was all it took, games like minecraft wouldnt even exist

and its amongst the most comercially successfull games out thewre

[white totem]

The hell are you talking about? Minecraft has some of the most iconic NPC design out there.

[storm island]

But whether or not it sells is irrelevant to its quality

[sudden hound]

Or the devs wouldn't have enough funding for more great updates

[spice meadow]

XD now we are going deep into delulu space, especially if you consider why the npcs look like they do

[sudden hound]

Minecrafts entire design is that its pixels

[storm island]

If ur in the hole because of 1 character bigger problems are in your company no?

Isn't the buisness driver supposed to be skins?

[spice meadow]

the creeper looks like that because they fucked up on a pig model and it ended up looking like that, they then just changed textures.

[sudden hound]

People like Minecrafts retro style and freedom

[sudden hound]

Yes

[spice meadow]

People like the first ever sandbox that was popular enough to break into the mainstream

[white totem]

And? It still looks good.

[storm island]

Yeh so who cares about how the character lands commercially

[spice meadow]

its literally just a box with 4 joints bro

[fluid hazel]

ye they changing model btw

[storm island]

Thats not my job to worry about

[white totem]

Are you gonna say that Street Fighter 2 is a poorly designed game because the combo system was created by accident?

[sudden hound]

If a character flops then so do their skins

Most of the time at least

[spice meadow]

It was, but they advanced on it thoroughly and rebalanced the game later on for it to fit.

[storm island]

I dont have to put out a 90 step plan on how a paladin in dark armor will be a money maker

To want to see it

[white totem]

Well, you can always make a marketing push along with a unique female Hunter or two.

[storm island]

Yeah I mean not a hard and fast rule

[spice meadow]

The company that makes it.

The devs whose jobs are dependant on it

[storm island]

I dont work for them

[spice meadow]

lol

[storm island]

I dont have to know how much money my character makes

I dont see how thats my problem

[spice meadow]

No youre the customer, just like thousands of other people that like more generalized stuff and buy into it

[storm island]

You can throw a skin on them that sells a lot of you want

[fluid hazel]

https://tenor.com/bCtYy.gif

[storm island]

I dont see why i need a buisness degree to be able to request something

[spice meadow]

Wait for someone to point out that this is peak design

[fluid hazel]

ye thats why i used it

[storm island]

Yeh and thats their opinion

This thread is for other opinions

We dont need to justify it with fuckin data and math

[spice meadow]

You can request it, thats completely fine, never argued it lol

[storm island]

We think it would look nicer so thats rhe suggestion

[white totem]

Hypothetical data and math. Nerryl didn't send a link yet.

[spice meadow]

But acting like the devs have to or that the game would do better or that the existing designs are bad will result in people argueing it lol

[storm island]

True actually its only hypothetical that irs even a bad thing because nobody has evidence for that claim lmfao

[spice meadow]

I only talked about how i 3D design stuff myself and explained why it just takes more time to make something unique multiple times before logically

[white totem]

Well, tough shit. I design unique 3D models too, and you don't hear me whining about it.

[spice meadow]

also not gonna lie guys if u wanna be on the side saying unique stuff sells better generally you can be on that side, i simply dont care enough to try to convince u of ur own delusions xD

[spice meadow]

I dont wine, literally just brought it up as reference

[storm island]

I mean its completely opinion based whether it would do better or not

What happened to that study bro

[spice meadow]

XD

[storm island]

And like rhe existing designs being bad is also just opinions

[spice meadow]

yeah im grabbing food man

cant make this shit up hahahahaha

[storm island]

I mean bye

Next time u come back bring the study with you

[spice meadow]

dont need to bro

[storm island]

Ahhh my b my b

[spice meadow]

theres a reason people only came in here to clown on you

[storm island]

We can just make up shit online

[spice meadow]

You can literally find one googling in 3 secs

[storm island]

I have a study on how good the sex i has was with ur mom last night

Where is it?

Google it bro 😎

Its there for sure

[white totem]

The study in question:

[spice meadow]

Why even stoop that low holy shit

[white totem]

Anyways, I think even a design that's the best of both worlds could work.

Going back to She-Ra, Scorpia's reboot design falls under that.

[fluid hazel]

Bro it was on bottom in the first place

[spice meadow]

On levels of intelligence maybe but insulting my mom is a new low

[white totem]

Hit dogs are hollering today.

[spice meadow]

And?

Directly insulting someone who isnt even part of the entire discussion just because u cant control ur own rage

[fluid hazel]

Shows how fragile they are

[spice meadow]

Crazy for it come from you while u literally blocked me and still read every message

How hit are u bro

How much of a hollering dog are u?

At least youre consistent with ur hypocrocy in this aspect too lol

[white totem]

They were making it a joke. Unless your ego is that fragile, I don't see the problem.

[spice meadow]

On behalf of my mother completely unrelated to the entire context. But theres no point in argueing it with you, you already proved enough that ull die on any hill u chose lol

[coarse halo]

It is possible that she wouldn't have scars from living in the void, but what does that character design decision communicate about the character? If she had a scar it would be an easy way to communicate to the player that she grew up in a warzone. That she had to fight to the death every day just to survive. The fact that she looks like she does does not communicate the kind of person she is or her life story well at all. Artistically the decision for her to be unscarred and the decision for the symbiote to affect her so little make little to no sense at all

[spice meadow]

Yeah especially if u compare her to kassadin or malzahar who both are literally scarred by void itself, they really bent the rules alot for her to exist

not a scar directly but at least have some kind of morphed body or smth

Although the frostborn are also something caused by the watchers and they look somewhat human still

[hasty magnet]

It's a your mom joke out of 2008 to lampshade how you were stating like your marketing basis for safe character designs as stated facts had provided no evidence. Part of the joke was how unconvincing their own claims of escapades were. Easy.

[spice meadow]

Like look at ashe or braum

[spice meadow]

I literally just cba googling it out going through references and finding stuff that applys within its conclusion just for them to tell me that it doesnt

[white totem]

Again, you had the burden of proof, not Fenrir.

If you want to back up the claim of "the general public prefers Barbie dolls!", then you need the evidence.

[spice meadow]

yes and as i said i cant be asked and explained logically why uncommon designs take more work from the perspective of 3D designing it

which you chose to ignore for the studys*

Like you can believe that making a human in blender is the same as making something that isnt in terms of work

i simply dont care enough to prove it to you

[fluid hazel]

I miss paqt joking

[spice meadow]

I also brought up riot talking about it too

which you also just shrugged off

Although riots example is also a bit more complex since their way of animating and making stuff is just alot more restrictive from how i understand it

so making something uncommon is even harder for them

and then u asked me to show u studys which i then didnt care about enough anymore to even look up, read and then post here, because again

you dont really care

[hasty magnet]

You maybe should take a walk rather then continually try to argue with folks who you seem to just think are just interested in not wrong designs but unsound business decisions. Like I'm trying to minimize my talk here until there's new sides to talk about to avoid your complaint of the usual customers repeating their points, but your core notion of "not even disagreeing, but so business brained any change from the paradigm would be a needless financial risk or unrealistic ask" is becoming a similarly familiar beat.

People care about dimensions of this topic for various reasons (various cultural factors, design values, ideologies good faith and bad, as well as just investment in the game), so people will get involved in this sort of design discussion. But it seems constant engagement in this is getting you frustrated and leading you to reassert your position in ways that mirror the very repetitions you critiqued this brand of threads for.

[fluid hazel]

We live in simulation

[hasty magnet]

I realize this has some varient of the unhelpful "touch grass" line to it. That was not intended. What I Intended to say was "hey, you might be falling into the very trap you critiqued here, and to argue with people you just dissent on commercial priorities. Maybe you'd do better not doing that."

[spice meadow]

I disagree, i think you can like unique designs while aknowledging that theyre rare for the very reason that alotta people just want their bread and butter stuff and that it just hits a broader spectrum

I think most designs dont get past that same point btw, it just will be kind of a funnel for a while

I disagree with it personally but from the now 17 friends i tried getting on the game 4 didnt even give it a chance because they didnt feel like there is a tank, one of the biggest reasons why i was pushing for tanks so much before 1.0 you can probs see it in my message history

all of them tried oath tho

mainly because that guy just looks like a tank even tho hes just ur classic armor bot with a shield and heavy weapon

With a bunch of cool details dont get me wrong

but i didnt even have to tell them

I think we are still not at a point where all of these things are met well, like we have an assassin that fits that style visually with jin for example and his kit just doesnt really back it up since hes much more of a slam bot and i feel like alot of the characters feel that way on top of that, along a ton of other issues obviously. Theres just so much this game needs to work on first imo

The designs not being unique broadly isnt even what i argue but the constant claims that the game would be doing better or that character designs are making people play the games more than gameplay does #1415711333000679494 message #1415711333000679494 message

like its only natural people will engage with it i genuienly dont get what ure on about it honestly.

The desire isnt even what people argue btw, you can want more unique stuff, i think everyone that is already satisfied with what they have right now will agree, me included, i want monsters ive been saying it since playtesting days lol

But the entire reason why the thread has sparked this much controversy is because of the entirety of delusional takes that came with it lol

[hasty magnet]

Personally, I don't find either linked take delusional. I think part of deadlock's appeal is its characters, of which visual and character design is just one aspect but it is an aspect. I think there are people that could gravitate to the game or gravitate back to the game with more obviously creative visual designs - that's not true for all gamers, but I first showed up in project Loki days because they had a pyro fox and a guy with a giant mutant arm, that got me in the door. My partner is someone who will get more interested in a game as soon as they show a willingness to let female characters specifically be a wider variety of cool or interesting than "they can be whatever as long as they're also 20, skinny, and have perfect makeup". It may not reflect all players, but clearly for some having visually incentive designs, or specifically designs for female characters that go beyond typical conventions, is a draw.

Games like genshin or league have success churning out casts that are (largely for league, universally for genshin and its ilk) safe and samey and to a teenager's beauty standards, all the more strongly for women, but I don't personally think that's the only model to success.

Here I am, getting lost in the details of the subject again. Visual design and its cultural impact and reflection interests me. I care about it, and clearly other people do too. I think that care in many directions is what gets the controversy and contention, often from people that disagree by degrees, not complete conclusions (though those emerge too)

[cedar eagle]

I need more larger ladies in games. Who arent made to be explicitely the butts of a joke. (Example Big Mom from one piece. Though she recently kinda got redeemed for being tough as nails)

I find variety to just be more appealing.
Would love for my body type to be represented in games a little more. Or even what some of my siblings/relatives look like.

[covert crater]

game is dropping players daily and this is the top discussion we have

[spice meadow]

I dont think its the main reason why it sticks around tho, not over them being the first 3D moba that actually solved alot of the issues people had with them in the past, which was the point i made on it afterwards, hence why i think its alot more about pushing ur own opinion onto everything than anything else. I dont think its crazy to think that it did its part, but its not like other games in that genre werent unique in terms of design, hence why i genuienly think that that statement in that context is just completely delulu lol. I think even it being a valve game played a bigger part in that honestly, one thing that youll also see coming up on here really often is peoples doubt of the devs sticking to a formula they do like enough to actually make it a good game over time. I do agree on the rest though.
I think video games potential on cultural impact is very out of sync with devs actually trying to be culturally expressive often, which is a sad side effect of them also being something people wan to just spend their time on enjoying obviously.

[white totem]

I don't see why not, since Hudson is part of the cast.

[storm island]

Hour time for this is wild

[storm island]

Dont need to explain it since this pretty much covered why I said it

[spice meadow]

i answered on it too

[storm island]

I saw i think its stupid

[spice meadow]

Ure entilted to ur own opinion

[storm island]

I dont think theres much more to rly talk about here with tou

I dont think your intelligent enough to have conversation with that requires nuance

The fact that u unironically think its delusional to think deadlock is staying around because of fantastic designs and character work is telling me all I rly need to know

[cedar eagle]

Nothing else to really discuss. Other topics been discussed to death so might as well beat this horse dead as well

[storm island]

I think disagreeing that a more experimental design can work on the basis of commercial viability is dumb

I think claiming to have proof and then being like use Ai bro 😎 is even more stupid

I dont think you put in the minimum effort to make an argument

[cedar eagle]

It definitely contributes but the designs wouldnt do much if they werent attached to an already promising/good game

[fluid hazel]

Monkey you are going into dangerous territory...

You better delete it

[storm island]

Oh for sure

[storm island]

But i think one of the hooks that keep people engaged are for sure the characters and how they interact with the world and each other

Calling people delusional for thinking that illustrates to me at least that you dont really have an understanding of what keeps people engaged

Which is why I said that I dont think hes capable enough to engage with in the convo

Every argument boils down to either popularity or money

When popularity is established he swaps to money and vice versa

When he gets examples he ignores them when hes asked for anything to back up what he says he refuses

He dosent actually care about the topic he just wants to type on discord with 3 hours logged on blender

[fluid hazel]

league players started playing during beta/s1 because of that hot ryze looks

and special design

[spice meadow]

I think it definetly adds to it, but i dont think its nearly as important as all of the other things i literally stated

[storm island]

Hey man im just saying he could give me some of his world runes

Also fun fact I started playing league because of how cool aphelios and sett looked

My first exposure to league was reading lore and listening to voicelines and gushing about how good the character design was

[spice meadow]

never called u delusional for that, but for the importance u put in it. People play mainly for enjoyment and i believe that looks can bring enjoyment, but i think something people can universally take enjoyment out of is just good gameplay loops that create steady playercounts, I just dont think appealing to niches is having the same effect so putting it on the same level or even a higher importance is completely delusional imo

[spice meadow]

it was only that 1 time lol because i simply dont care to bring something up ure just going to ignore again

[storm island]

You can type all the justification for it you want

You were asked for proof for your wild claim and you didnt post any

You said to use fuckin ai

You dont actually have anything to back up what you say

You just say use common sense or appeal to historical beauty standards

Like i said you dont actually care or are engaging in good faith

[spice meadow]

So basically you think that going for a bunch of niche things that may appeal to some people is a comercially better approach than going for things that a broad spectrum has picked up on for a longer time to the point that devs literally make posts like this one for example to explain why they have been delving into these kinda approaches more rarely https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-of-men-and-monsters/

or this one https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/champ-popularity-mixing-math-art/ to explain how they approach a balance between the 2

[fluid hazel]

You are too late Mr nerryl

[spice meadow]

the main reason why i dont show up with studys is mainly because if you ever read one, theres usually not one that specifically says x, you usually end up having a ton of them all having some sort of conclusions or references from other stuff, in this topic, mainly how sales corrolate with popularity, which you wouldnt even need a dammn study for

its literally common sense that popular stuff sells better generally.

[fluid hazel]

Actually we need meta analysis because study might still be wrong 🤓

[spice meadow]

While u literally mentioned nothing but deadlock as an example, which is steambacked and died off to 10k players after launch losing 90% of its playerbase and only came back, not because of designs but because of a gameplay update lol

and u still think its the designs that made it lol

[spice meadow]

yeah as i said cba

[fluid hazel]

There's no winning only losing

Pretty sure you could use some books on design and still it won't matter

[storm island]

Even in this post though they talk about how they have made too many humans as of late

And never the closing they state a primary reason for not doing too many monsters is representation

Which supervive also does not have

[spice meadow]

yes, but they literally still didnt change that.

Naafiri and belveth

thats it

[storm island]

Also an important distinction is that female hunters designs that are unique don't necessarily need to be monsters

[spice meadow]

Skarner rework if you wanna add that

[storm island]

If u actually look at 64s posts for like what he would like to see he very rarely posts a full on monster

Most of them are just regular women who look markedly diff from what we already have

[spice meadow]

its just a good blog post i took as reference because its the literal extreme of unique designs.

[storm island]

Yeah man or like smolder

[spice meadow]

ANd the other blogpost goes deep into how they balance it as an artform and also gives u alotta reasons why popularity is often a really big reason, although treated as an equal in that older post, they later bring up in the monster post, that it sometimes just becomes heavy enough to not even consider weighing in on uniqueness in a bolder manner hence why they very rarely do monster designs anymore

[storm island]

Briar (kinda)

Vex

Like they did make some more non human champs

[spice meadow]

vex and briar are both humanoid still, completely forgot about smolder though

[storm island]

And im not even arguing that we should get monsters with more frequency

Or that we should get monsters at all

All people want is something different from what they always recieve

[spice meadow]

i never claimed that. Still the same reasoning, unique often correlates with a struggle to keep things popular. Both posts mention it directly correlating with it

Im fully aware monster designs are an extreme

[spice meadow]

if all people would want that, ud be getting it

[storm island]

I dont care what all people want

What is even all people bro

Everyone who plays supervive?

[spice meadow]

then dont say people

say I

[storm island]

When I said people just now im referring to people in thjs thread you are inhabiting who think different from you of which there are several

[spice meadow]

I think most people just want the game to be fun again lol

[storm island]

Use some context clues

[storm island]

I mean ofc I want the game to fun but we can walk and chew the gun at the same time

I can yell at safelocked because of the wholesome chungus felix build thats rhe only way to play my shit character and want a lady who dosent look like she came from the barbie movie set

[spice meadow]

Yes sure, but youre not going for a walk to chew gum lol

Designs dont matter if noone plays ur game

my entire argument isnt about me not wanting more designs or whatever, again, I think that alot of the bad faith from ur side is acting like its a huge thing when in reality, the designs this game has are actually fairly good compared to other games

Overwatch was brought up frequently

Which is genuienly worse in comparison imo

[storm island]

I think ow absolutely shits on vive

Tbh

But they have had the benefit of like being around for a while

Like season 1 OW is much closer to vive than like what's going on now

[spice meadow]

we already had that talk before i cba again, i think ow is one of the worst examples for diversity in designs in the entirety of hero based games

i think even TF2 did better

for its time ofc

[storm island]

I mean TF2 imo was the gold standard

We could bring up so many different games and compare them but at end of the day I think compared to its current peers vive lacks in intrestkng and creative character designs

And I could write a whole other feedback thread about their kits and items

Designs dont matter if nobody plays your game

But designs matter to get people to try

And character matters to get people invested in your characters

Both of which vive lacks severely

[spice meadow]

hard disagree lmao what

i think supervive had one of the best launch rosters in the past years

deadlock is the only game that comes up from the top of my head

that was crazy enough to even come up lol

Which like isnt surprising honestly, valve does not give a shit they just do it for the love of the game

[storm island]

They go high dif but lose to OW

I could bring up other launch rosters I guess

[spice meadow]

yeah im not going to argue it again to come to the same conclusion

[spice meadow]

which ones

[storm island]

I would have to look them up lmfak

Idk who launched with what

[spice meadow]

Asking out of genuine interest, i felt like the recent years like since 2015 had the most bland launch rosters lol

[storm island]

This is why I didnt specifiy launch rosters bro

Those shits are boring

[spice meadow]

so you think supervive is up there with their launch roster or not?

[storm island]

Let me go see what I would be comparing it to

And just type it out no bias

Beats valorant

Loses to rivals

I havent seen a single second of gameplay for apex legends

Loses to paladins

[spice meadow]

Apex was super boring imo too, just a bunch of people in tac gear

[storm island]

Stomped by deadlock

Beat concord

Loses so omega hard to gigantic I am not kidding holy shit gigantic designs were good

Shame about the.. rest of the game

[spice meadow]

?? concords characters actually looked cool af the game was just utter shit

Have u looked at them?

[storm island]

I think its the shapes for me

Idk how to really describe it

[spice meadow]

shapes???

[storm island]

Its not the way they look its the clothes I think

Everything they wear is ugly as sin

Tells me very little

[fluid hazel]

reminds me of that marvel comic that never came out because of worst design and abilities

[storm island]

Like what am I to discern about these characters from what they wear

[spice meadow]

The game had so many issues, i didnt play it but just hearing about it made me stop wanting to try it just to see what the fuss even was about

[storm island]

No I def think characters were not as bad as people think

[spice meadow]

the literal mushroom person?

[storm island]

I mean shes a mushroom

So?

Thats like rengar and hes just nude

And ur like

Its a cat man

[cedar eagle]

The designs jut not really too appealing.
The grandma is honestly fine though. I kinda like the shape language

[storm island]

Yeah I can see that mate

[spice meadow]

theyre unique though

[storm island]

What makes rengar intreasting is the way he looks like a seasoned hunter

[spice meadow]

I do agree outside of mushroom lady and the big monkeyman none of the designs appeal to me either

[storm island]

What does mushroom lady tell me by looking at her

Obv she gets points bc like... she a mushroom

But im just showing my point

[spice meadow]

idk i didnt play the game but she probably has some spore kinda abilitys n stuff

[cedar eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/we-are-rich-rich-deep-rock-galactic-compressed-gold-gif-24791651

[storm island]

I mean yeah thats the point lmfao

All she is a mushroom

[spice meadow]

this is big monkey man i talk about

[storm island]

I kinda need somethinf more

[cedar eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/tablestory-oracle's-rest-ratchrosphere-dungeons-and-dragons-dnd-gif-7071007177140702999

Mushroom

[storm island]

See this is a good one

Bc you can see hes a strong man

You can tell that by looking at im

His design communicates that to me

[spice meadow]

zarya is big buff lady with big weapon, tracer is small lady on crack that is fast, its not like the overwatch designs are super dimensional either lol

[cedar eagle]

You can tell by the design what he is about. I can tell he is probably slow and maybe even armored judging by the metalic plates

[spice meadow]

esp not the starting roster

[storm island]

Ehhhhhhh

[cedar eagle]

Leaving the upper body exposed signals he doesnt care about small arms fire

[spice meadow]

he be free

[storm island]

Zarya is buff but you can see more about her in her character

[spice meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/reject-modernity-return-to-monke-monke-gif-19167526

[spice meadow]

that shes russian

when she starts talking lol

but not by the looks

[storm island]

You can tell by the suit shes backed by a corporate sponsor

Shes more suited up than some of the heroes

You can tell by her tattoo she has a rich history

What does 512 mean?

Idk

[cedar eagle]

Tracer does have the device on her chest signaling she probably has something going for her besides just being a slim lady

[storm island]

I dont think blizzard does either tbh with you

[spice meadow]

I genuienly think ure grasping at straws with that tbh, noones gonna look at a random number tattoo and make that part of their descision to engage with it. I think most people literally just see these characters just like u see the mushroom woman

[storm island]

You can tell by her scaring shes been in a fight

[spice meadow]

If you didnt have more background info on the OW cast u wouldnt even know

[spice meadow]

Dont forget the beta winning poses

I think one of the biggest blunders with the entire concorde fiasco was honestly that the designs were actually hella cool

But marketing and actual game were probably the biggest desaster of the century

Like Battlefront 2 was the biggest desaster i can remember before this one and the game was so good that it swung back multiple times

[storm island]

I got off topic bc I was thinking about zarya

Uhh Gundam evolution mogs supervive rest in peace my son

[spice meadow]

also forgot this guy, obviously not super creative but looks kinda hilarious

[storm island]

Deceive inc is also better but I dont think thats really fair

[storm island]

He was my favorite

If only you were in a better game my son

[spice meadow]

Really hope the designers dont end up in a bad rep hole and never end up working on a game again

because it wasnt their fault ong

[storm island]

Yeah no its legit everyone elses fault

I think I've covered all the major shooters rn

And some that have been eos

Supervive is comfortably mid

[spice meadow]

But at least u dont call it bad anymore in comparison

[storm island]

In comparison nah

Only bc the shooters with way way better designs are all fucking dead

[spice meadow]

i disagree with alot of these mainly because of their lack of non human characters personally. Stuff like Void, KP, the kinda stuff u can put on a cover and comfortable make ur games face knowing that people would immediately recognize it as a supervive thing or at least ask themselves what the fuck the pink dude is, is what i draw personally to judge what i think makes a roster good

and i think supervive had a ton of that on launch and kinda shat the bucket with the most recent releases, wukong being the only non human design, probably one of the most overused characters and also making the coverart for 1.0 social media was imo one of the biggest art blunders the game had

i can agree with the recent releases, hence why i started talking about the launch roster so much

they have not been exciting for me at all

[storm island]

I appreciated the attempt at least

[spice meadow]

oh you said it

why do you think these games died?

[storm island]

It depends

Gundam died because it didnt do anything intresting with the genre

Deceive inc died because the devs fucked the game up

[spice meadow]

I think cool designs can make u put up with a game for longer or get into the game but never really keep u on it like gameplay will, i think this is a good display of that

and thats also all im argueing, as i said, i think its completely delusional to have that kinda discussion on a level that equals gameplay and doesnt deserve the same ressources until u have enough spare to spend on it

i think you can agree on that at least.

thats why i even started argueing that the thread is stupid because the entire premise was that its a big issue, when honestly, its just something that deserves more love at some point so that we can feel more satisfied with the roster. I really dont think the female roster is that bad, with the exception of mercury tho lol

I think mercury was the first one that was a miss for me. Shes not terrible, but when i heard alchemist i was hoping for something more magic

its the same problem i have with crysta but 10x worse, at least crystas baggy pants kinda give off a garage engineer vibe although i dont like the entire rest of her design including body shape

I also love reading in here when theres other designs shared that actually proved to be successfull in some form of media at least

Like i did with the lt morales for example

But acting like thats been the focus oer the creator of this thread just making a bunch of dumb statements around the value of designs is just not true

[storm island]

Sure

[storm island]

I mean its not the biggest issue but is an issue if ur just upset that he framed it as a bigger issue than you think it should be i dont think theres a problem with that but thats not rly what you have been saying for a while now

[spice meadow]

i have been cohesive about this since i started engaging with this discussion lol

[harsh nexus]

that game was pretty fun ngl i liked it

[harsh nexus]

nah m64 telling everyone to kts was the crashout of the century mom jokes dont come close

[harsh nexus]

can we see them?

[spice meadow]

completely forgot about that lmao

[harsh nexus]

dont worry guys nuts is home

take a break nerryl ive got it from here

[spice meadow]

You probably have seen some of mine, or stuff mine are based on if u play arma reforger c:

I quit since i started working again

its hella time consuming

[harsh nexus]

im so jealous 🙁 i havent even tried learning blender yet

i do videos for a living tho

and would love to start doing 3d shit

like even just product demos look so clean in blender and resolve

[spice meadow]

its hella fun, its just an unintuitive hellhole of shortcuts

[harsh nexus]

you can do so much cool stuff

[harsh nexus]

yeah

have u ever used touchdesigner?

THAT program is a hellhole bro

[spice meadow]

But once u learn stuff it genuienly is a skill worth having and also something u can use for a ton of things honestly.

[harsh nexus]

oh i totally believe it

[spice meadow]

idk if i used that, i have used a bunch of 3design software in my lifetime tho, i got into it because of newgrounds got more advanced on it because i started making shit with arduinos and a 3dprinter and got good at making things pretty because of cosplay props

As long as u have something that motivates u to take the next step it is one of the most fullfilling hobbys

[harsh nexus]

i started off makin runescape music videos waaaaaaay back in the day

[spice meadow]

HAHAHAHA BASED

[harsh nexus]

i remember getting like, greenscreen/ultra key to work for the first time

changed my whole life

[spice meadow]

xD

I didnt know u were based like that nuts holy shit#

[harsh nexus]

of course dude

i literally shitpost and edit videos for a living

[storm island]

It looked fun

Im a little sad it was eos by the time I got to play it

[harsh nexus]

it WAS fun but it was very much friendslop

like, my vc loved it for a week and then we found out it was dead months after

[harsh nexus]

check it out bro, its not so much for 3d id almost describe it as a dj tool but u can do some sick stuff with it

but its miserable

[white totem]

I just got an idea: This character would be a crafty old lady, and she would be Crysta’s mother who taught her everything she knows.

[white totem]

Also, 6.

[upbeat salmon]

It should be a 3000year old wich. And she should look like mercury!!! Cause she found eterbsl youth

[hasty magnet]

I mean we know her dad was a mentor in the field so at least some of what he knows comes from him.

[white totem]

I see. Maybe they were both scientists, then.

Although that would be pretty bloated, so maybe just an old lady gadgeteer would work.

[hasty magnet]

Seems more engineer than scientist. Given it's dealing with explodium reactors that might require science level degrees, but crysta's scant mentions make it seem more like a craft or trade

[white totem]

Well, this looks promising.

Also, I might be right about them releasing this Hunter in October.

[hasty magnet]

Curious to see how it expresses in game - seems like at least here they're going for some kind of hidden visage, but maybe that's just for the silhouette. Obviously wait to see in game model, as there seems to be some distinction on occasion.

My one note would be the horns. Whiel obviously these are very visually different than Eva or Terra, it seems like horns are becoming a pretty common visual signifier, but we're not exactly sure what it signifies.

[white totem]

Ok, this has to be at least a little bit awesome.

and it most certainly is

[sudden hound]

you mean the homeless skater with a knight helmet and a scyth?

[spice meadow]

Hey take that back

[sudden hound]

https://tenor.com/view/no-i-don't-think-i-will-cap-avengers-marvel-gif-6420739801263939210

(Granted there could be a lore reason for the lack of armor and the torn city clothes but untill that gets revealed she is still gonna look like a homeless skater with a knight helm)