September 3-Day and Veteran Test Megathread

[wide quartz]

Writing more here based on more of what I’m reading.

[latent gorge]

really like the line about attacking from brush vs stealth, hard agree here

[humble shoal]

i think players will want to fight over them anyway right? and some players if they have a weaker start can make the decision to fight for the one that is the worse power. i just like to do things on purpose rather than we happened to get rewind this game that was lucky

[drifting sparrow]

Getting 1-shot by a nuclear Bishop from stealth sucks, yeah. But when it is from a bush, I at feel like "Eh, I should've checked that bush."

I think those bush plays are a little lame when you have almost every team doing them, but I do like that they are possible sometimes

[wide quartz]

The way I’m internalizing this is - it would be nice if there was less Brush on the map. Is that the conclusion you’re coming to?

[oak nacelle]

Yes that would actually be a good solution

The thing with bushes is they can't move unlike with stealth so it's up to us to check them which is okay

[cinder axle]

Its a BR at the end of the day tho, random / lucky drops are a key component of the game mode IMO

[half drift]

Mana cloak in it's current state cannot exist being practically infinite with very short cooldown and not being able to be revealed when close is too strong. Main issues with it is that you can get one shot out of it without time to react against like champs like Kingping/Joule. But also the ? system is extremely oppressive with Mana Cloak because you can just walk around people make the ? appear on top of them and you will force them completely to either run away or force them to use random abilities to try to reveal you without much success so it becomes one of the strongest powers in the game and it becomes really frustrating after multiple times when you either die without being able to react or you are just permanently pressed by a question mark.
Stealth potions are fine in it's current state.
I also agree bonfires should reveal every stealth since it should be y our "safe" space.
Another issue with stealth in bushes is that there's just way too many bushes in the map to be having to check constantly so I don't know if there would be a way to add a slight animation to bushes where people are hiding.

[drifting sparrow]

I'm not totally sure what solution I would be looking for, since my thought process for so long on this topic has been "Okay, if everybody is gonna play like that, how do I counter it?" But perhaps, yeah.

[ancient osprey]

TF2 has some interesting stealth mechanics with the Spy, one key aspect of it is that you can't break stealth instantly to attack, you have to come out of stealth first and that takes a bit of time. Something like that might help emphasize the more strategic/positional use cases of stealth over the ambush/assassin use cases.

[drifting sparrow]

Maybe having fewer places to hide would do the trick

[humble shoal]

with the bushes thats the nice thing about smoke because it allows you to rotate and it auto checks bushes for you

[drifting sparrow]

Might even make low-tier powers like Guille Suit higher in prio for those teams that just really want to bushcamp

[humble shoal]

it's probably just a difference in preference then

[wide quartz]

I could also see a design space of - what is a hiding space that doesn’t allow you to ambush at melee range?

[ancient osprey]

Yeah I do really like this usecase, my only thing with it is that it just feels a bit weird to come in the form of an invis pot.

[humble shoal]

i guess it only makes more sense to me because it's basically the exact same as using a smoke from dota 2

[drifting sparrow]

Personally, I think RNG in smaller scale objectives is fine, but when it comes to the really big stuff, it needs to be telegraphed a bit more so people can plan accordingly. That's what makes that side of the macro-game satisfying. Not "oh, I lucked into this"

[ancient osprey]

Yeah, I've just tried to explain that use case to people and it takes a while before they get it, so I don't think it's all that intuitive with what people expect to be using an invis pot for.

[humble shoal]

we agree on this

[wide quartz]

Yeah, this is cool. Pacing is sometimes tricky, but another lever is definitely - time to reveal.

[ancient osprey]

Yeah, spy could go from the worse class to the best class just by making that instant lol.

[wide quartz]

Yeah, this is a great point too.

Or at least, it’s clear if they do move.

😏

[fading basin]

imo its fine if stealth is a more niche usecase too. Not everything has to be always useful. Such as mainly used for rotations

[drifting sparrow]

I'll also throw this out there: I disagree with a point made earlier that bonfires shouldn't reveal people in bushes. I think they should. Bonfires are about claiming space as your own, but not revealing bushes means that people can just walk in as long as they have enough bushes to path through

[wide quartz]

Was this trying to address something in particular?

[ancient osprey]

Unless it's a bush in a patch of other bushes, I'm not sure if there's actually different behavior for being in a patch of bushes with/without gillie suit active. I think I've gotten killed by this before, not sure tho.

[sterile geode]

I think "Stealth as Minipulation" Is FAR better then "Stealth as hiding"

[latent gorge]

Something I always try to keep in mind when it comes to stealth is how it feels AS the stealth person vs the opponent and how it feels for them.

Stealth is a inherent advantage and I think a lot of the frusration around it is when it feels unfair and the person who used the stealth was able to do it very easily, not to mention how effective that ambush is.

Bushes is something that you can check and EVERYONE can use. Sure, everyone can pick up a potion, power, etc for stealth but there is certain rng in finding that on the map or getting it from another player. Anyone can use busehs as long as you are near one which makes it feel more "equal" so mabye some of the frsuration comes from the rng aspect? (not core problem, just something I thought I'd throw out there)

I think it is about finding a way for stealth either to be "hard to use" that way when it does happen, you are like "damn that was well played" (maybe you can't use anything stealth related once oyu enter combat?) or the stealth isn't as effective.

Just throwing thoughts out there : D

[fading basin]

I dont really have an issue with that element. The unfun part is the current little to no counterplay to "true" stealth

[potent gust]

I MISSED THE START

Hello everyone

[wide quartz]

Tell me more!

[calm basin]

I am making a stealth scenario in paint rn hold on

[wide quartz]

Let’s go into signaling next - this is a whole beast in of itself.

[fading basin]

What does signaling entail?

[wide quartz]

Also want to get to the heart of signaling even within the Stealth conversation!

[fading basin]

its a concept im not too familiar with

[sterile geode]

Well so, I think using Stealth, invisibility, and stuff like clones as a way to mess with the enemies head is far more interesting then focusing on making Stealth a way to hide. Ill use an ult then go from their to explain how I think an interesting kit around that stealth could be used, and a not as interesting one. IMO

Say a character has an ult that makes them invis and gains MS when out of vision, or something like that.

To me, an interesting character design around that stealth would be one that uses the stealth to play into the confusion of "Where are they, where are they attacking from" Geurilla warfare style gaming, but the "Invis guy just one shot me and I could not see them, or They invised and just Ran" I think the issue with Stalker in the past was that his stealth was so universal and could always be up then just deleted you, or got away, the interesting part of it for me was when he would use other abilities, get a reset in stealth, then use a short stealth to reposition himself or set up another quick play.

[calm basin]

Guys what do I do as joule in this situation. When is the kingpin stealth range fair. I dont know if he is there

[wide quartz]

Another word we can use is telegraphing. But basically - when an event occurs, how perfect should the information given be about that event?

[potent gust]

Depends

[wide quartz]

But we’ll get to it more in a sec.

[fading basin]

dash

[violet tusk]

trying to differentiate between invis power vs invis consumable. a smoke bomb lets enemies see where you are stealth but dont know exactly where you are inside, and it would be dangerous to face check which would be a fun interaction imo

[oak nacelle]

For major objectives: Souls, Major bosses (night 1, bubba, gnarl, orb of life) should all be info that is given as these are big swings in the game that everyone is able to contest and plan for

[wide quartz]

Gotcha. Yeah, so to say it back - for you, Stealth is about the mind games.

[sterile geode]

Yes

[fading basin]

I think telegraphing is in a pretty good spot right now imo. Except the night 1 boss, would like to see that like the rest.

[potent gust]

My take on invis in PvP settings : I like it only when there's interaction. Invisibility is a denial of interaction in itself, so as a player of it and against it, I find it healthy when triggering it comes from a condition that can be telegraphed, and the outcomes are easy to predict.
Jamila in battlerite for instance, you need to have someone to hit your counter to go invis, but then, a huge part of the value is the next lmb, so considering Jamila's current HP and who's the most vulnerable in the enemy team, her position is given away and does not feel unfair. Yoru in Valo is on the ult, you hear him shout it out and there's a bit endlag, or even Sombra in OW2 her bulk of value comes from hacking which can put her in difficult situation and her tp out is telegraphed. In LoL, if you attack from a busy, advancing from caution and reading the room gets you pretty of valuable info not to get caught.
In Supervive, a lot of that is absent and some hunters have insane threat ranges making so that you get unfairly punished if you don't check in certain circumstances

[wide quartz]

Gotcha! Yeah, a smoke bomb in some ways might be Large Brush. Fun to think about.

[violet tusk]

yeah with a time limit basically just to facilitate a rotation or engage/escape

[potent gust]

Regarding telegraph, outside of that as I agree with this, it's in a great spot

[fading basin]

Does reading map go under telegraphing or is that another topic?

[wide quartz]

This is another use case that I see the vet crew engaging more with that’s worth noting down. Smokes breaking detecting brush activity.

[wide quartz]

It is - just want to close out some of the original topic first and we’ll get into it.

[potent gust]

Jess, do you think we have time for mana today or nah? 🥺

[wide quartz]

I’m reticent to do mana at the end. But let’s see. 🙂

[fading basin]

I can already say that mana will summon the Dunmuir and it will be an 8 hour discussion, mana opinions are very very strong

[lavish scaffold]

The mana discussion will summon a great many people, as it always does.

[potent gust]

Ye

But should be addressed sooner than later tbf

[wide quartz]

On this - we disagree. But I’m happy to talk about it when we get there.

Alright - going back to the last piece of Stealth signaling. I saw some mentions around the question marks being sort of confusing.

There’s also after-images.

[fading basin]

I think what mythi suggested with his drawings would fix the issues i have with it.

The signaling happens too late right now to be of any use

especially if youre in visual clutter from a fight or some other stuff

[ancient osprey]

For me it's just the ! and after images part that are too late, I think the question mark happens at a pretty appropriate time

[wide quartz]

Right, so one callout is just - the signaling is fine; it just needs to come up from further away.

[fading basin]

[humble shoal]

i really enjoy this interaction since it lets me use the smoke as a proper rotational tool and not just a combat tool. checking bushes without having to use lmb so i dont make noise everywhere i walk is also a cool layer to it. i also think that smokes shouldn't be revealed by basecamps since having a player there would reveal them anyway. allows for more layers to the vision game imo. on the back of that it would be interesting to have the ability to buy the different consumables from the shop so you can make the conscious decision of maybe grabbing some wards to break people with invis or i want walls because it's final destination etc...

[wide quartz]

I also saw @cinder axle wanting more accurate information, in that instead of a question mark, it would be more of a directional arrow.

Is that desirable? Does that make it too hard as the one Stealthing?

[ancient osprey]

I'm a big fan of signals being clear and hard to miss, so I wouldn't mind the ? marks being louder like some people have suggested, but I also don't feel I personally have issues with them not being noticeable enough atm.

[fading basin]

I dont have issues noticing them out of fights, but when stuff is happening they get overshadowed very easily

if for example a third party is happening

[drifting sparrow]

I think being able to certain consumables in the shop, and not just Jumppad or food, would be a welcome change. But I also think Items should interact with consumables far more than they do right now.

[sterile geode]

I think that would depend on what type of stealth, like if its a short duration, that is way to hard for the stealthing person, but if it's an extremely long duration stealth (Like Pykes) I think that would be fine

[ancient osprey]

I feel like I usually notice them even then, at least before it's too late.

[ancient osprey]

I think that might feel too bad particularly against hunters that can output a lot of directional spam like Celeste or Ghost

[cinder axle]

I think giving a general direction of where the stealthed enemy is in the question mark zone would be helpful for sure

[marble granite]

wait i've been missing this today

agony

[potent gust]

Imo that'd be too much TBF. Stealth is already big in terms of potential drawbacks so that the design weight isn't off balance in the grand scheme of things, but giving too much info might tip the balance the other way and make stealth undesirable or too hard to balance

[cinder axle]

lmk when we move on from stealth I feel like I have said most of things I want to say about it

[potent gust]

Imma leave for 25 minutes btw, I have to do something real quick

[trail lava]

i just think if someone in in range of you close enough to KP slam they shouldnt even be able to be stealthed

[wide quartz]

Yeah, I like your callout here on it being likely dependent on Stealth duration.

[trail lava]

it should break way before it gets in that range

[calm basin]

y

[potent gust]

Agreed

[ancient osprey]

Also worth noting that there already some ways to identify what direction they are in by looking at who on your team has question marks already or not.

[wide quartz]

I intuitively thought I understood what you meant, but could you explain more what you mean?

[trail lava]

and tbh most of the issues with stealth are pretty much solely tied to mana cloak as an item

most other forms of stealth are much fairer and either require an exotic item or a soul

which i think at that point is fair

if someone has nightstalker i have no problem with the stealth being strong and ptent

its just when they have the blue power and they can be perma stealthed and able to one shot you from it thats unhealthy

basically what im saying is nerf mana cloak, its super toxic and unfairly strong power for how common it is

[oak nacelle]

I still think overall shouldn't be that strong even with nightstalker/exotic, just an unhealthy mechanic when it is what it currently is

but I've said everything I wanted to say for stealth

[sterile geode]

I dont think Stealth should be something that is goated on every character, but some characters do better with it, right now, every one does great with Cloak

[wide quartz]

This might be missing a verb. 😅 What was the Shops point?

[ancient osprey]

If I'm trying to use stealth to close a gap or something, these hunters can relatively easily deny the ability to do that with their long range spam if they know the direction I'm coming from immediately. With the current method, where you have to figure it out, you can interact with it a lot more since the invis player can also influence who has a question mark on the enemy team and potentially use that to make it less obvious what direction I'm coming from rather than it being given quickly and for free.

[oak nacelle]

Also in terms of map, are we able to make it not snap back to your char everytime you open and close and leave it to where you last dragged it to. Really annoying considering you could see everything with the previous map version.

[drifting sparrow]

Oops, thinking faster than I type. My bad. I was trying to say being able to buy consumables at a shop, and not just food or jumppads would be cool, and make certain consumables less scarce, but on that note, I'd also love if equipment interacted with consumables more than they do right now.

[wide quartz]

Yesss. This is perfect.

It goes back to the mind games point, too.

[fading basin]

give back third eye tech blade pls

[half drift]

The mind game is fine, the duration of the mind game is the main issue aka Mana Cloak where you can Mind game the opponent forever.

[drifting sparrow]

I don't want to shift the conversation back to items right now though. I'll likely write another post about items in the following week or two anyway with more detail.

[long flint]

Mana battery and mana cloak 😭

[calm basin]

Longer you use mana cloak the more mana it takes up. Puts a cap on how long you can use it. but having combos with mana regen so you have to build for it?

[wide quartz]

It’s tough to get a sweet spot range of - just enough where you don’t get trivially revealed, but also not close enough where you can trivially assassinate at melee range, because different Hunters have different LMB ranges.

[oak nacelle]

if king pin can dash slam out of invis, it's too close

[fading basin]

I would be fine to see different versions of it for different patches to test out where the sweet spot is

[oak nacelle]

I think that is a good determining range because it also goes with void ult/rmb

[wide quartz]

I think that’s another way to say the above.

[wide quartz]

Yep, for sure.

[trail lava]

yea agreed, like i said before it also creates a balancing nightmare for the hero since you don't need any skill in order to oneshot someone

and theres almost no counterplay

[wide quartz]

Another thing we could do is tune Kingpin Dash Slam…

[oak nacelle]

I don't think you should tune the hero around invis

should be the other way around

[ancient osprey]

Having a time to reveal would be another way to adjust that type of thing too

[trail lava]

you could do this but its not the way to do it imo

[long flint]

Perma invis is just op regardless of kingpin

[trail lava]

but tbf i thing kingpin is turbo OP and has been for ages so i'd be down for this aswell

[waxen granite]

if you tune kp dash slam then all the abilities on other hunters have to be tuned as well and that sounds terrible for players and devs

[ancient osprey]

What if the invis cloak was really heavy, so you couldn't dash as far lol

[oak nacelle]

I think we already came up with the solution

[drifting sparrow]

I think KP is pretty balanced right now

[wide quartz]

I will always say the other option, just in case. 🙂

[oak nacelle]

and would like to just see them tested over a few patches at diff ranges

[drifting sparrow]

He's just also good at abusing certain systems like stealth

[latent gorge]

I feel with some of the items and changes made, KP will be sleeper strong but I don't want to derail convo. just saw people talking about it and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in

[drifting sparrow]

Or what if the cloak took longer to leave stealth

[ancient osprey]

#1289037724485156946 message Yeah that's what I mean by this

[sterile geode]

Have Mana cloaks drain on mana get MUCH higher as they get close to an enemy

[waxen granite]

i agree with just messing with invis over the course of multiple patches

[drifting sparrow]

Also meditation boots are... Um...

[ancient osprey]

Idk if it's good but sounds kinda interesting

[calm basin]

I would like mana cloaks mana cost increase the longer you wear it.
Still leaves in some interactions with mana gen to extend it
puts a hard cap and risk on using it for too long (go oom)
thoughts?

[potent gust]

We lost Jess 😱

[oak nacelle]

I think we're too focused on mana cloak and I just want invis changed

[fading basin]

who shot jess?

[oak nacelle]

Can see the items and mess with their nuance after an overhaul of invis as a whole imo

[calm basin]

I did it. it was me.

[long flint]

On that note can we have vision things like shrikes bird see in bushes when you activate it

[calm basin]

Maybe the lvl3 could do that?

[oak nacelle]

that goes into the topic of bushes being full anti-vision

Is that good for the game? idk if good or bad

[ancient osprey]

Yeah I agree, and having consistency with the solution is good too I think.

[long flint]

Bush wookies need to be stopped

Idk I’m fine with not being able to see in bushes otherwise but if I ward it I should be able to see

[calm basin]

If the vision source is in the bush id say it should reveal the bush

[drifting sparrow]

I think bushes can be full anti-vision, but maybe there should be fewer of them

[potent gust]

I'm more of the opinion of not necessarily reducing them, but getting intel via different gameplay elements be more interesting

[drifting sparrow]

Also, things like Shrike's bird should see into bushes if they don't already. That thing is like a glorified scan grenade, if it can't do that much...

[calm basin]

I do have one worry about bushes. Wont people get too accustomed to bush positioning to the point they will be able to spot out random trees and bushes in wrong spots or am I just schizophrenic

[long flint]

Nah you aren’t people will actually do that

[drifting sparrow]

People already are doing that.

[long flint]

But that’s not what you balance for lol

[waxen granite]

:3

[potent gust]

Will only apply to a very small portion of players tbf, but will apply

[drifting sparrow]

People like me :3

[waxen granite]

pensato :3

[drifting sparrow]

Mifuyu :3

[wide quartz]

What we love about Stealth

• Feeding enemy players misinformation.
• Using it to position, rotate, hide optimally.

Would address

• Mana Cloak giving Stealth too reliably given how rarely its Stealth breaks and how common it is.
• Showing a signal when someone Stealthed is around you [from further away] to address ambushing from stealth - especially at melee range.

Debates

• Should Base Camps reveal Stealth?
• Should we give more directional signals (instead of the question mark) that point to a Stealthed player nearby?

[sterile geode]

You havent seen my tree's yet :)P

[calm basin]

Curveball. randomize a few bush/tree positions on map

[ancient osprey]

You can destroy trees and replace them 🙂

[potent gust]

Jess is alive 😤

[calm basin]

Theseu'ses forest

[wide quartz]

Lol sorry, I’m just realizing how a lot of these suggestions sort of ran past each other but may not all work in concert.

[potent gust]

Dw, it's the joice of that job

I mean, you do know that way more than me, but still xd

[fading basin]

i think basecamps should reveal stealth. gives basecamp way more of a presence other than just to cook food and repair armor and hap hazardly reveal players close by

[wide quartz]

There’s a lot of debate around whether Smokes should or shouldn’t exist, whether they should actually be Powers, whether Stealth should break or not and in which circumstances.

[fading basin]

makes the basecamp feels "safer"

[waxen granite]

for basecamps, when i first started playing it was a location where i felt "yeah i feel 100% safe here" and now it's more of "yeah there could just some guy sitting in a bush waiting for me to interact with the base and i'll just die w/o a teammate around"

[ancient osprey]

I think I did prefer it when basecamps revealed bushes, only thing I'll note that might want to be addressed as a result is that the grasslands campfire would get significantly stronger.

[drifting sparrow]

I think base camps revealing bushes is far more important than revealing stealth, since stealth would be revealed if somebody was nearby anyway

[calm basin]

I really like that area and hate it because I feel like a schizophrenic person when ever i am in there

[potent gust]

One take amongst others : As a long time stealthy character player, I feel like Stealth should break most of the time and be binary (are my whereabouts known or no?), and also tools should be given to whom know how to use them to circumvent the schrodinger cats like bushes

[calm basin]

Should stealth break if you look in their direction long enough?

You take a clange it maybe does an outline. you look at them they get revealed

I am scared. I am being stared at...

[wide quartz]

One thing that I’m surprised hasn’t been mentioned is combat actions breaking Stealth, and whether we like that.

[potent gust]

I kinda sub-mentioned it tbf

I'm all for it personally

[calm basin]

I think they should break stealth.

[wide quartz]

Ah, I may have missed it.

[potent gust]

Nah dw I'm kinda hazy, I might not make my points clear, I'm sick and have fever lol

It's my bad

[ancient osprey]

Not sure what you mean exactly, are there alternatives you had in mind?

[wide quartz]

Oh no, feel better!!

[fading basin]

should be like that. if it wasnt it would be insanely broken. a KP stunning you while still invis. Void channeling ult while still invis, bishop ult etc etc

[potent gust]

Can't be any worse with sickness and CTS on both wrists raging 💀

[latent gorge]

I think stuff like what abilities would break the stealth or not. So like shrike throwing out her bird for vision would that break it or not? Stuff like that

[wide quartz]

Yep, exactly.

[drifting sparrow]

I'll be back in a bit, fellas, gotta replace my CPU. Cya

[fading basin]

everything should break stealth imo

except walking and jumping

[potent gust]

But back on point, I just feel like interaction is key, and be it disabling stealth by doing an action yourself or damaging a stealthed enemy would be my aim

[fading basin]

Good luck, dont bend the mobo pins

[calm basin]

I cant tell if this was a good contribution. I just got stared at...

[latent gorge]

what about gliding?

[violet tusk]

someone said it at the start but crypto sitting stealth in the middle of the zone isnt fun. i never had fun against stealth in any game i can think of

[latent gorge]

I had fun in WoW against feral druids and other rogue's

[fading basin]

should break it imo

[violet tusk]

not me, i played enhance. needed warrior bleed to do anything to them

[ancient osprey]

I think I like the current stealth implementation where it's pretty much if it deals damage or applies effects, it breaks stealth, if it doesn't then it doesn't break stealth.

I think stopping non-damaging movement abilities would make it significantly less fun for me to use. Especially when it comes to smokes where the main thing I'm using it for is rotating safely.

[wide quartz]

This would be a good third topic.

[potent gust]

Oh and about Smokes. Not necessarily the same, but on my tactical pvp game I experimented with bushes to give that uncertainty angle of attack, making enemy players do guess work about their whereabout. Needless to say, it was still pretty unbalanced in the early stages of it, as you had no way to know what was happening in that brush (knowing whether the enemy spawned units, how they were placed), and having such a big schrodinger cat with the only way to uncover was commiting a unit to die granted me a lot of fiery feedback haha
So ye, I think grenades should stay, as they can be available and open interactions with the whole brush thing, thus making brush strats not so unfair but also valueing interaction

[calm basin]

We've been beating around the bush for too long

[wide quartz]

Incredible.

[potent gust]

And I did a first input for that third topic without knowing 🤣

[wide quartz]

Keeping movement to not breaking makes sense to me too.

[sterile geode]

Whatever we talk about here, Tree Costume is Perfect

[wide quartz]

Ah, I just caught this. Is there a reason you’d want gliding to break Stealth?

[potent gust]

We need a ent hunter that can grow brushes, thus disrupting @drifting sparrow (he knows the position of every brush)

[calm basin]

I want them to stealth add a change that makes bushes move ever so slightly just to mess with veterans

[waxen granite]

my thought is that gliding becomes too safe of a mechanic

[potent gust]

Wait you can glide while stealthed?

[waxen granite]

nop

[fading basin]

Imagine youre gliding and then boom you get spiked from someone whos invis while gliding. Also adds to the intricacy of routing while being invis because of which gaps are crossable while staying invis

[wide quartz]

And I think the last question I have on this original Stealth topic is - without Smokes, are there any tools you would want instead to bypass Base Camp vision? I sometimes see players getting trapped with some of their members down, with nowhere to go. Maybe the answer is just - brush?

[turbid vector]

Only thing is that it really shouldn't have an animation that you can see easily

I should be able to go from bush to tree without being revealed

[ancient osprey]

Not really an answer to the question, but what if you could emp grenade campfires to disable them for some amount of time.

[fading basin]

Ghillie suit

[calm basin]

ghillie suit

[wide quartz]

I think this is a cool answer!

[sterile geode]

I love this

[fading basin]

Makes alot of sense now too as the basecamps are electronic now

[calm basin]

I would generally like more consumables in the game but that is a discussion for another day

[turbid vector]

Love that suggestion

[sterile geode]

Ruin Campy (Pun intented) team's plan by EMP'ing their camp

[calm basin]

same good idea

[wide quartz]

@fading basin @calm basin you were both on the same wavelength, heh.

[calm basin]

Great minds think alike

[turbid vector]

Better than nuke or group tp who just poof it perm, a disable would be very interesting

[potent gust]

You drew the line perfectly, was cooking a question for the question and you answered it perfectly!

[waxen granite]

a small thing which is related to base camps but not invis, is that a voice line will play if an enemy player enters a basecamp a voice line will play alerting you, i personally don't like this because a team could completely ignore you but then will get notified by doing nothing. idk if i'm the only one who dislikes this or not.

[long flint]

lol I don’t think I’ve ever seen an emp grenade thrown at me

[wide quartz]

Alright, this was great. I’m going to reserve the last ten minutes to the signaling topic, since that got brought up a while ago. Digging up the original post…

[potent gust]

(The question was : Depends on where do you want to draw the line. Holding a camp is an undertaking and being in that situation should prove to be a clear disadvantage. I'm of the opinion that, since it's your turf, enemies shouldn't take advantage of your own stuff.
And then, Jay you came in clutch xd)

[rich coral]

Is it ok if I throw a few other points that I have prepared regarding "information game"?

[sterile geode]

Left turn Signals should be used when turning left and right turn signals should be used when turning right

[wide quartz]

Lol, I loved these but this is definitely an issue I’ve seen get brought up with them. We’d probably want to make them more obvious.

[ancient osprey]

I like it, it means that when I step on a campfire, I know that the enemy knows I'm there, there is not really a chance that they missed it, and I like that being consistent and clear what information I'm giving away by doing so.

[fading basin]

Im about to dose off. But for when you get to map, pls dont change, the info game has a extremely high skill ceiling and expression and if youre good at it you can track alot of teams and where they are but not accurate enough to where uavs are useless. Creep icons moving, basecamps, boss % etc all work wo well in harmony.

[wide quartz]

I for sure was getting distracted. Let me actually bump, lol.

[lavish scaffold]

Creep icons moving, basecamps, boss % etc all work wo well in harmony.
Not really paying attention to this discussion, but while I'm here, wanted to voice my appreciation for these things being a thing to begin with from an info-gathering perspective.

[waxen granite]

ic ic, yea i just had no outside opinions on this so i didnt rlly know what to think about it besides my own

[fading basin]

Only thing i would add is night 1 boss info back as they are major bosses

And gambling on it being a useful item/power for your team is not fun

[wide quartz]

I found it!

[forest rivet]

Ahh I'm late!

[potent gust]

We only got a couple of minutes left anyway 😭

[turbid vector]

I will say, the icon for the basecamps has been getting worse and worse in my opinion, even though the rest of the map and enviroment in general has been getting way better

This is what it is now:

[forest rivet]

There's a system in HOTS I believe where if you move during stealth you give off a small shimmer. But whilst standing still you are completely invis. I like this, because the counterplay is being good and knowing that if you see some shimmer you have an invis around you and can see them if they're walking around you.

[humble shoal]

happy to hear it

[wide quartz]

What do people think about @humble shoal’s note around being able to see boss rewards pre-spawn?

[humble shoal]

oh

[potent gust]

I'm all for it

[humble shoal]

i am off the train of the convo lol

[wide quartz]

Hahah, all good.

[latent gorge]

Definitely miss it

[potent gust]

Makes strategising worth it, otherwise it's kind of a gamble

[turbid vector]

yea sounds nice

[lavish scaffold]

I think that's the kind of information that players should have. Hard to make informed decisions about objectives when we don't even know what the objective actually gives.

[potent gust]

Helps leveraging opportunity costs

[forest rivet]

I feel it's okay as it is now too. I like that you have to go information hunting "what If it's a good power?" .. Means more people wants to contest it, no?

[sterile geode]

I think it could be good to have, but also, not know exactly what is going to spawn is part of the needed adaptability, but I understand I may be in the minority, I do think a "Unknown powers" storm shift could be cool, in its lew

[next shadow]

I also enjoy having this info available. Makes decisions feel more impactfull. Rather than "flipping" it. For example. It might be a good power or equipment for my team, but if its not, then i wasted the time and put myself in a dangerous position for nothing.

[lavish scaffold]

Whatever it gives will probably be useful anyway since it is a Night One boss, so trying to get it is a good idea anyway, but I really don't think the risk added from not knowing adds enough at present.

[forest rivet]

I think you should value future scouting characters and their kits.

[lavish scaffold]

I do think there is a world where not knowing what they drop could be fine if not better overall, but I don't think we're currently in that world.

[wide quartz]

Yeah - I do think it helps with objective planning and only going there if it’s worth it. To the scouting requests - I wonder if that’s begging the question of whether that info should be earned in some way.

[humble shoal]

people should contest the night 1 boss regardless if they know what it is or not but you should know what you are fighting over. because if team 1 fights people for something like red boots and team 2 fights over a blink dagger then there was a better option. it also in theory makes the better teams fight over the same objective and allows the weaker teams to fight over the "worse" one. ovs the game is gray so it's not always going to play out like that but it just leans to more interesting interactions

[lavish scaffold]

I wonder if that’s begging the question of whether that info should be earned in some way.
Which itself invites the follow-up question of how do you balance that information being accessible enough to be worth using vs. not worrying about getting the additional intel and just running at bosses

[turbid vector]

Suggestion: Scan beacons reveal what the next bosses will be

[oak nacelle]

UAV is already strong enough as is

[humble shoal]

if you made it an earned system i wouldnt mind using uavs i guess to determine what they are going to be. i feel like you would need to tie this to the souls as well though since they are the same kind of objectives in terms of agency on the game

[turbid vector]

yea just wanted to throw it out there

[oak nacelle]

Just reveal the info for major objectives it’s better for the game and players and feeling of macro in the game while keeping other aspects rng

[ancient osprey]

I think the issue is that it's hard to make a plan that is adaptable, I generally have to choose what one I'm contesting before I know which one I actually want.

[wide quartz]

Totally. We’ve had flavors of this with UAV. But then, at what distance does it make sense to just not tap it and go straight there anyway?

[forest rivet]

I don't disagree. I'd also argue that all tiers should be of equal value x)

[wide quartz]

Yeah, I think the callout of - hey, I want to be able to weigh the objectives on the board to inform my pathing makes sense.

[humble shoal]

night 1 bosses spawn at prisma falls and vein grove providing they are in the first circle of the game. or are you on about what power they are holding?

[forest rivet]

I also feel getting too much information for free ruins a part of the "gather information" play though?

[lavish scaffold]

You have to have information to begin with to work with.

[humble shoal]

i think the value should depend on what you have in your team hunter wise

a blink stone should be better on kp the same way a rewind is better on joul

[forest rivet]

Right now you don't see the skill you get untill the bosses actually spawn, right? So either way you don't have the information in time? 🤔

[lavish scaffold]

I don't think knowing what the major objectives on the map give is "too much" for free.

[wide quartz]

Yeah - for me, I think this goes back to the desire for the information to be earned some way.

[turbid vector]

I think a thing is that like.. This information is just not very achieveable to get in a game

[forest rivet]

Yea, that's how I feel. It doesn't mean it's the correct option for this specific thing. But it has to be taken into consideration before just giving it for free.

[turbid vector]

like you can't scout a boss before it spawns

[next shadow]

nah man. Am taking both the blink and rewind

[turbid vector]

It'd be a different story if you could go check like 5 minutes early

Even then it'd be kinda wonky though

[humble shoal]

the blink rewind zeph gonna go to crazy

[wide quartz]

Hmm…think this topic probably deserves more time.

[forest rivet]

Also, right now the Dropboxes only shows a color but doesn't tell you what's in it. I'd argue they should work the same as night 1 bosses? But you're not talking about them at all, what's the difference?

[humble shoal]

the airdrops?

[lavish scaffold]

Air drops do show you what's in them on the map, no?

[forest rivet]

Yea, they legendary ones dropped me be kind rewind (forgot the new name).

[forest rivet]

No, they are just tier colored

[humble shoal]

the airdrops i view as an rng supply drop, the night 1 boses are actual map objectives that have set spawns depending on first circle

[wide quartz]

I do have to jet, though.

[ancient osprey]

If we're talking about giving it for free or making you go out and find the information for the bosses, I'd ask the question, do we want more information to gather? There already is a lot of information you can gather, and a lot of that information is also still relevant for how you want to approach those night one objectives.

[lavish scaffold]

Air drops as in the things that sometimes drop powers or armor from the sky? It doesn't show that it drops armor, for example, anymore, it's just blue?

[forest rivet]

Yes

[humble shoal]

apricate your time safelocked

[wide quartz]

Will keep reading this convo though, since you guys are on a roll.

[lavish scaffold]

That must've been changed in this most recent technical test then, which means I had no way of being aware of the change until now as I was not in that test, but that change is not great IMO.

[wide quartz]

Same to you!

[gray oak]

cant wait for the stream

[latent gorge]

Thank you for your time!

[calm basin]

Thank you

[gray oak]

hope u guys will be able to answer alot of questions :3

[forest rivet]

It's still "RNG" why should it be a different ruleset for obtaining powers? I'd say, show what powers are on the bosses from using eye or UAV like you get vault information. It means you have to either UAV or go face-check which inturn leads to more game elements and strategy.

[lavish scaffold]

Pretty sure Night One bosses give, generally speaking, larger boosts than anything that comes from an airdrop at the same point in time in a match.

[humble shoal]

do you feel like airdrops are on the same value of agency towards the game as a night 1 boss/soul?

[turbid vector]

Thank you for your time, these discussions are great~
ps. safe, I sent you a dm~ Whenever you have a moment, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know if that's possible. Thanks!

[calm basin]

Btw when do airdrops spawn and what intervall do they drop stuff. I feel that is a little unclear or am i dum

[rich coral]

Imma throw my 5 cent regarding the "Information game" imo

I would focus on the theme of the "heroes" we have that are called HUNTERS. They should pursue food or sports with the intent to capture and manage a game in the search for it.

Currently, the only mechanics we have for such are:

• Bird flock that flies whenever a player passes them
• UAV
• Spotting Blue Flower
  Other than those, the "Hunters" rely on the vision game, and most hunter kits don't have the means to act as a hunter. (Which is OK imo, Their kit should be for fights while other game elements should bring the hunter game to life)

What I would suggest are more ways to make the game feel like the cat-and-mouse chase part:

• More traps, ways to trick others before an engagement, not simple ambush from a bush but rather placing an item that when interacted may cause debuffs and open up a possibility for an attack
• [E] for UAV is too simple and feels unrewarding, so let's say: add a layer of buying off information from NPC for instance.
  (Going back to the first point, traps may be used to confirm chasers)
• Pressing CTRL will not only add more vision range but also make the hunter highlight possible clues for the whereabouts of others, the special Vision from The Witcher: Wild Hunt or Apex's Bloodhound is what I have in mind, and the clues can be marked on bushs that players leave, an added mud, similar to water but it leaves foot marks, remains of a beaten monster perhaps
• Consumables are something that I made a brain dump on, Nitpy and Damstra also added more. The Beans could be a source that strategy revolves around, by making special regional Beans that give different effects, and maybe adding recipes for bonfires where the Hunter mixes different Beans for new effects/same beans for stronger effect (Yes, learning curve increased)

[forest rivet]

The legendary one should be!

[humble shoal]

earliest i seen on my vod is night 2 i havent figured out the exact times yet

[calm basin]

I really like how apex legends has some characters with abilities spesifically designed for intel. That one guy with the drone, bloodhound, the scan guy who kinda looks like lil nas x

[forest rivet]

Hmm, you mean they have less value due to being later in the game?

Still I feel the information flow should be consistent and not varried too much. Because the day they add a scouting character (for example). There should be value to information.

But even now, to much free information is just confusing, it's better to have ways to obtain information defending on your team pathing and build. If that makes sense?

[ancient osprey]

You can also see people interacting with various things on your map, IE doing vaults, killing camps, doing bosses, reviving, ect.

[humble shoal]

why?

[forest rivet]

Again, value of information should be consistent

[grim falcon]

Hey! Couldn't be here but hope the discussions were great, gonna be my night reading

[humble shoal]

i mean more so why do you feel like they are the same value

[forest rivet]

Not saying I think bosses should or shouldn't have the info. I just think it's information overload eventually and takes away from strategy.

And that information is better as a strategic element of "how do we learn this" then "oh its this let's do A or B".

Just think it'll destroy depth as you become a stronger player.

[humble shoal]

i understand what you are saying to an extend we are on the same page in some ways. it's the same reason i hated the crouching scouting system

[forest rivet]

Again, I mean all info. Not specifically night 1 bosses.

[humble shoal]

i'm trying to ask you why do you feel like the night 1 bosses and souls are on the same value in terms of agency on the game as an airdrop though

maybe im wording it poorly but i cant think of a different way to word it lol

[forest rivet]

Yes! I mentioned the same reasoning for this too.

As long as the line is clear where it is "we have this information" or "we need to obtain it". And what should be on either side of that line.

[forest rivet]

No I understand you.

I think they are both legendary powers. How are they not equal in value? Except that bosses are earlier.

Why isn't a legendary drop the same value as a boss?

It's just different mechanics on how it pops into the world.

[calm basin]

And dont bosses also give lvl5 s

Or have I missunderstood

[forest rivet]

I think so yes. So in general they are always good to kill.

Also 3p for Big Game Hunter

[calm basin]

In this the bosses are way higher value then the airdrops then?

[humble shoal]

the bosses are earlier so you get the value for longer against in theory weaker people, you gain lvl 5, it's also a hard spawn location so you are forced to fight over the objective a lot more than you would an airdrop that has the chance to drop anywhere on the map. the airdrop will be gifted to a random team the majority of the time. winning the fight for the night 1 boss also means you have free rain over the remaining teams which could result in you snowballing your lead if you play it right. that's the main reasons i would value the night 1 boss over an airdrop. since this imo is more impactful i want to have more information prior to this happening. if there is a big turning point in the game i shouldn't of had the rng of showing up to the wrong one that had a respawn becon while the other people happened to fight over power shuffler.

[forest rivet]

But wouldn't that be a good argument to have to hit the UAV once in the later stages of day1 to learn what powers are dropping where?

[calm basin]

Id say yeah. Makes uav's hot spots for early fights.

[forest rivet]

That means UAVs have more power day 1 and could leave a "scouting" path to make sure you get a UAV before night 1

If you can't you have to gamble, is it worth the risk etc.

Or have a character scout the location beforehand and that would show the drop.

[drifting sparrow]

I think maybe we're losing the thread of things

[forest rivet]

No, it's about "How much information should be free." It's an important topic imo.

[ancient osprey]

UAVs are already really good, I don't think they need to be better tbh

[humble shoal]

you would also now have to guard uavs from being pressed as a part of the things to do in day 1 and that just wont be possible as a consistent thing

[forest rivet]

We don't have to decide on specifics. Point is: I don't want too much free information that could take away from game depth. And where that line is drawn. We can skip night 1 bosses specifically.

[ancient osprey]

They are already something I'm always looking to hit before night 1, I don't want them to be more important to the point that I feel like I have to and it starts limiting my options.

[calm basin]

I think them being random is a fun thing. Because its a little bit of a flip and there is a risk to them.

I preffer random things because I am biased towards adapting to circumstance and find it more skillfull. Also I am a little casual

[ancient osprey]

I don't have an issue with giving it for free at the start of the game, because it adds depth to planning at the start of the game. It lets you make plans further into the game, which gives them more opportunities to get messed up, forcing you to adapt. I think it's just as skillful/interesting way to interact with it as linking it to other things.

[drifting sparrow]

If we want to talk about "how much information should be free" then maybe a conversation around UAVs would be well-placed. But I don't think "the line" should be Bosses though. Those are big enough objectives that they can swing the pace of the game, and that information, in my opinion, should be free for everyone because it is something than anyone/everyone should make an active decision in fighting for or not fighting for, not "I didn't know".

UAVs are already one of the most powerful neutral objectives in the game, they are already highly valued, making them even more valuable by being the only way to see the most important objectives in the game is not a good suggestion, in my opinion. Sure, there is the question of "how much info should be free", but there is also the question "when the most important info isn't free, what does the game begin to look like?". UAVs are already so strong, why buff them?

My perspective on this was summed up earlier by Phenom, and that's: Big objectives, like bosses, should have their info telegraphed (like what stuff do they give, and where are they gonna be), and smaller objectives can be left more to rng. If you lose a big objective because you simply didn't know where it was gonna be, that sucks, and using a UAV to gain that information just makes UAVs even stronger.

[forest rivet]

The where was never in question. Only if the power should be visible or not. I gave 3 or 4 different ways of how to obtain the information not only UAV.

The boss still gives you level 5 AND a legendary power. Isn't that enough reason to fight for it? Well either way we're getting stuck on night 1 bosses and not the important thing that was "Should information gathering be a game path to making good desicions or should you get all that info for free?"

[odd zinc]

how do you make that information gathering not binary? it's either "you know what it is, or you don't". either walk in range, or do the funny minigame (another chore, w/e it is) to be able to see what the boss drops. feels like it's there to be quirky and not really fun.

being able to see what the boss drops is so incredibly important. if there boss is dropping soulstealer im going to ignore it, if the boss is dropping radioactive im going to contest it even if we are in a bad spot because radioactive is so game warping.

it lets u soft balance the game a bit as the extremely powerful things should make people contest them and add a higher risk to more powerful rewards.

it's pretty often the lvl 5 bosses aren't worth contesting anyways and are a massive throw to take, if i can't identify them from far away i'm just not going to contest them unless we're already snowballing hard

also for stealth. it was more fine when it was broken for everyone because the counterplay to it (bonfires) was so strong. and well. 5 pots/stack for 1:30sec duration before it got nerfed to 2/~45 . u just pop smoke when u hear smoke and nothing happens. lategame circles would just have 4 random teams bonfires laying around and ur invis didnt do anything.

then invis pots were nerfed to being useless, other invis stayed the same and counterplay got removed. now u just have some nerd pick up a pretty common power and ruin ur day for free unless u have scan grenades or spinbot on assault. (rip scan grenade equip upg)

i'd rather invis as a whole get pushed to a more middle point(between cloak and pots) and have it work consistently for all sources of it. cause rn pots are almost useless and the other sources are rly dumb to interact with

[gray oak]

you can also see them coming very early if you just keep track of the planes, its very easy to be first on them, Ive been first on them almost every time i tried to in the NDA test.