September 3-Day and Veteran Test Megathread

[peak quiver]

Elluna will forever be bad as long as her identity revolves around being a rez bot

[wide quartz]

Got it. Would you want Elluna to have more?

[forest rivet]

I couldn't really participate due to work but what ended up being the points taken on Void?

[limber tapir]

Zeph in this conversation also needs to let the damage happen, but in his case, he instant heals. Elluna heal needs time to ramp up, so you can stop her healing while it's happening as opposed to zeph, who just heals and you cant stop him in the middle of his heal.

[sterile geode]

I think the big thing right now, is that Ellunas base kit (primary, secondary, special, and mobility) should not be changed, because they feel amazing to play with.

[vagrant orchid]

I would look to add some additional way to do damage with Elluna where its high risk/skill -> reward.

[drifting sparrow]

Unironically, I think some of this would actually be solved by giving her her old ultimate, because then she would provide healing though very minor, the backpack, and a decent teamfighting ultimate. Right now, she just wants to funnel somebody and look for Rmbs, but her rmb isn't as impactful as just a Zeph grenade, her healing takes longer than Zeph's, heals less than Zeph's, and can be canceled, unlike Zeph's, and her ultimate is just a worse Zeph rmb, kinda.

[fading basin]

I think ellunas root is in a good spot, its a skill shot which gives decent value. My issue is the rest of her kit just either is really bad or isnt fun to use (not dashes)

[trail lava]

i feel like elluna balance is where i think the healers should be and her not being viable is more a cause of zeph/oath being overtuned than her being weak. the main gap i think is that her heal is so weak in comparison to zephs that i feel like you can't really pick her over him if you need any form of healing

[latent gorge]

I think for Elluna I like her RMB as well. It comes down to finding ways for her shift, heal, ult to be cool

[grim falcon]

Crap I miss the start of elluna uuuuuh
Ult is boring to use

[sterile geode]

I personally dont agree with this, as you can use this in some very agressive way, but (spoiler for my elluna video) || I spend over half of the video talking about Elluna’s kit in other ways then her revive and how important those functions are to doing well with her ||

[wide quartz]

Right. One solution could just be to focus on the Oath notes.

[thorn sandal]

yup

if she gets her old ult or a different ult she would be fine imo

[grim falcon]

^

[trail lava]

i'd say so, for me i think those 2 hunters are so far above the rest of the cast that i'd be worried trying to bring elluna up to that level of power would creep the game like crazy

[fading basin]

• Dash: one of the most fluid and fun dashes to use in the game
• Lmb: doesnt really feel impactful and almost never care about the mark being applied
• Heal: just a worse zeph heal, long CD almost same amount of healing
• Ult: boooooooooring
• Passive: like where it is and actually has depth to it

as chipsa said shes good balance wise just very one dimensional (in a bad way) and unfun to play

[sterile geode]

It also does not help that Zephs healing is better then Elluna's but also FAR easier to use

[limber tapir]

I think her ressurection ability is not... great. Sure, I love how she picks up wisps. But that and her root are the only reasons you would play the character competatively. She's very fun in pubs, don't get me wrong, and I'll acknowledge we aren't only talking about pro play, but imagine the scenario where characters are instant killing wisps and you're elluna.

And even if a wisp isn't instantly killed, if you're only going in for the res, you basically get to do nothing until someone dies. The problem is not with her specific numbers, I think the problem is with her passive playstyle because she has very little worth to help her team until someone dies.

In terms of preventive abilites, it's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

[turbid vector]

like just

imagine it

[vagrant orchid]

What if her Ult could be cast on enemies for a different effect?

[turbid vector]

Also btw..
my biggest issue with elluna.

SHE DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE A BACKPACK!????

WHERE IS IT

[rich coral]

Death Stranding Elluna

[turbid vector]

WHO STOLE IT

[trail lava]

ellunas old ult was so fucking bad once the aoe got nerfed, was legit super useless. I think her ult right now is cool because it relies on using it at a good time and actually has legit tangible counterplay (dont kill target until ult is finished)

[fading basin]

^

[wide quartz]

This was a lot of the feedback we got with the old one.

[thorn sandal]

yea when i say old ult i dont mean the small ass circle after nerf

[peak quiver]

All of Elluna's power budget is allocated to waiting until someone dies and invalidating a lot of the enemy team's own power budget

[trail lava]

her ult also just didnt make sense for a healer and felt super bland. This one is alot cooler and had alot more characther to it

[wide quartz]

Well, but I do think the general shape of it sort of falls into a tough space. What do we want from a Support Ult?

Right.

I think that was the dilemma we even felt.

[drifting sparrow]

This might also be a good time to mention how I really dislike all of the "straight-to-deathbox" stuff, like Brall's ult executing to deathbox, and Bishop's punch insta-killing wisps. I think it is kinda crazy that people complain about the cremation on Shrike rmb, but not these things.

[latent gorge]

She is a celestial bunny so playing into fantasty of mobility combat medic would be sick and using the sky to help allies along the way.

RMB->Keep the same. (maybe change lvl 3 upgrade tho instead of just flat stats)
Shift-> Still double dash but maybe she leaves a trail behind at lvl 3 that allow allies to run on that would give movespeed (plays into movement and dashing around, also incentivizes trying to dash through allies which you want to do for heal cd)
Heal-> I honestly don't have the best for this. I like the idea of being able to throw it around and it being aoe, but maybe at lvl 3 upon completetion it increases fire rate by empowering people with stars.
Ult-> I haven't thought enough on so not much of an opinion here

[fading basin]

Im very unsure what i want from ellunas ult as i dont feel like she really has an identity right now

[trail lava]

for me elluna is the most "true" support that we have in the game so the fact that her ult has no offensive value at all makes perfect sense imo

[grim falcon]

It does, the problem is all the others have an offensive one lol

[trail lava]

zeph is the combat healer that can DPS just has hard as he can heal and oath is more of a tank than a healer but elluna needs to fit the role of being a pure support more than any others hence why i think the ult is really well designed

[wide quartz]

Tell me more!

[limber tapir]

TLDR:

Elluna to me has no preventive play, and this is a problem because her healing takes time to ramp up and is easy to anti-heal. Her main function is as a res bot, but then you have no real use until your team starts dying.

The other healers:

Oath has a shield AND a heal, he can prevent a LOT
Zeph has a multi person dash and his healing is instant, making it harder to anti heal a zeph.

Also, where elluna does no damage, oath's damage scales with his health making him VERY hard to fight, and zeph just hits like a truck and also i believe his self healing is still pretty good.

I don't think the solution is to add preventive abilites, but rather make her abilites less reliant on her team being weak first.
Her root is a perfect example of how that can be done (I really like her root!)

[sterile geode]

I think it's less that it's a support ult, but in a game that has a very fighting style, and it can be on the elluna to carry a fight some times, it's hard to use an ult that is only defensive, when the rest of her kit is so agressive

[fading basin]

Yeah also the level 3s for Elluna is very boring

• root: stats
• dash stats
• heal stats

[grim falcon]

^

[wide quartz]

Gotcha.

[fading basin]

I want something more creative that actually impacts how i play for the level 3s

[latent gorge]

What do you think of what I proposed? #1289037724485156946 message

[limber tapir]

Synoyd read my message

[trail lava]

does elluna dash still heal alliess it dashes through?

[wide quartz]

Oh, yes. I’m curious.

[fading basin]

which one?

[wide quartz]

For the group - what they think.

[drifting sparrow]

Yeah, I think people have hit on the really big thing, which is that she doesn't provide much value until you are losing, so you could just play an actually good healer so you don't get to that point.

[marble granite]

I think Elluna getting a proactive combat medic identity would be much cooler

But I don't play the character so I may be alone on that take

[eternal mica]

yeah, elluna should be the support that you are annoyed by the healing, stats she provides etc, if essense of elluna is being a "true support" then the idea of having an offensive ult or similar is not my personal favorite (meant to reply to chipsa)

[limber tapir]

Hmmm idk about that. I like the idea she gets to be more active, I don't know if it solves the problem or if it's a bandaid solution

[latent gorge]

tmk it reduces cd now. could be wrong though!

[grim falcon]

I'm fine with that, main problem rn is ult and lvl 3, also the fact she isn't the best healer nor tank nor anything, so the comment doens't really fix those

[fading basin]

I think elluna has still has very good value prefight too, if you have ult you tell your team they can engage extra hard cus you plop it on them and they heal throughout the fight. Root is amazing for setting up plays and her dashes sets up angles. Shes not only just a omg my team is dying i can finally get value

[drifting sparrow]

having an offensive ult would let her provide a bit outside of when her team is losing, and then she is a counterpoint to zeph a bit more, and they feel more balanced in terms of the utility they bring, in my eyes.

[grim falcon]

Only thing fun with elluna is her mobility

Heal is a joke if not level 3

[limber tapir]

not true, her roots are super duper fun

[wide quartz]

Would you agree she’s the best resser? I think that’s an important third piece.

[turbid vector]

I do not play elluna

[grim falcon]

Root was hard nerf and even if it's fun to use, zeph grenades is BEYOND better

[latent gorge]

I would say she is 100% and her mobility plays into that

[slow tartan]

the trail idea on her shift is cooool

[turbid vector]

I would say her rez is the best one though

[drifting sparrow]

Because Zeph is the true support right now, but he also provides team utility, CC, and a ton of damage.

[turbid vector]

Like she is the hardest to deny a rez from

[limber tapir]

Jess I think this is important I'd like thoughts on this from a game design pov im hoping i made sense

[turbid vector]

with oath/zeph you can atleast do something to cancel their rezzes

[fading basin]

I think shes the best in pubs, but not the best in higher mmr lobbies

[turbid vector]

most of the time

[wide quartz]

Haha, I’ll get to each post. I appreciate you.

[turbid vector]

because they don't move

[drifting sparrow]

Elluna tries to be a true support, but she just doesn't do it well.

[grim falcon]

Technically yes, but even on that part oath and zeph can do stuff that elluna can't

[latent gorge]

^ agreed

[turbid vector]

yea

it's also just

[trail lava]

i think her having no preventitve play isnt a bad thing, not every hero needs to fill every niche and find that elluna should always have low proactive value but very high reactive value

[turbid vector]

she lacks the most damage of the supports really

I think that's honestly the biggest thing no?

zeph/oath oneshot

and heal

elluna just stands there, watching you die, healing you and rezzing

[limber tapir]

did you read the entire message or just the first sentence 💀

[grim falcon]

I mainly played elluna at first, and was forced to play zeph because she's been garbage 3 patch in a row

[vagrant orchid]

I started with Elluna. I like her. But I switched to Zeph and found him to be more versatile.

[trail lava]

i didnt read the last line

[latent gorge]

^ yup

[grim falcon]

And let me tell you, I don't see myself coming back to her if nothing change , only thing good is the mobility, i can't 1v1 like i could

Idk

[limber tapir]

I don't think the solution is to add preventive abilites, but rather make her abilites less reliant on her team being weak first.

[grim falcon]

I have 0 fun when i play her

[wide quartz]

Where would you want her to shine more?

[drifting sparrow]

I used to play Elluna in my first couple of patches, as a more supportive option for when I wasn't playing Shiv/Celeste, but then they changed her ult and it made me feel useless outside of Rmb

[sterile geode]

To partially go back to my glider thing, because of how weak elluna felt last test I HAD to fight over the abyss, all of my good plays on her either involved fighting in the abyss, or insane escapes.

[limber tapir]

I would like to know what the Elluna ult change was 🖐️

[latent gorge]

I think with Elluna ultimate maybe empowering her autos to heal through allies it passes through and maybe does something else could be cool? Is this the type of offensive direction you think would be cool? @drifting sparrow

[fading basin]

I can say i miss the old burst shot which made her one of the best abyss fighters out there.

[wide quartz]

Ahhh. Yes. I have wondered if people like that that was part of her identity.

[trail lava]

i think she should be one of the best abyss fighters for sure, i think it adds another layer of being a combat medic in a way that allows her to kill outside of just giving her raw damage

[wide quartz]

Given some of the other things that have been said.

[grim falcon]

Heal need to be adjusted
Root is fine
Dash is the fun part
Ult is beyond bad
Passive is fun too

Basically she is the perfect abyss fighter where when I play her i just bait enemy to spike them because i can't do anything in 1v1

[fading basin]

I did think that was a large part of her identity. As well as the burst shot was way more engaging to use with the timing of shots and waiting to use the sunburst until after youve marked them. Now there is very little to no agency in the marking

[drifting sparrow]

nah, I don't think I'd be a big fan of that. She is simply never going to surpass Zeph's healing output. I'd rather she go in a different direction so that they can each have their own niche.

[trail lava]

the heal is only shit if you compare it to zeph ngl, but thats just because zeph heal is dummy overtuned

[grim falcon]

Numbers on the heal if not level 3 are a joke tho

The concept of throwing it is really good

But that's it

[drifting sparrow]

Being mobile, throwing out RMBs, Tossing your heal around, calling down stars from the sky... That felt like this really cool mage/combat medic.

[latent gorge]

Ah I see! I was just curious of your perspecrtive on the matter

[wide quartz]

What I would say after reading is - functions are not always equivalent in power across Hunters.

[latent gorge]

Combat mobile Protector

[fading basin]

Ellunas heal is good, but i dont like the nerf to not heal at full capacity until lvl 3. Id rather tune down the numbers overall then and do something more interesting for lvl 3

[limber tapir]

I think the function of ressurection is a little better than the two other supports, and everything else is giga worse.

[sterile geode]

I'm just going to post the idea I had sent to Tehleach about her ult, but I think they Elluna’s ult should boop enemies away from her target, this can either confirm space to ensure a Rez, or be used more agressively to knock enemies into deathtraps or over the Abyss

[wide quartz]

Right. I think calling the specific gaps you’re seeing are great.

[fading basin]

Heal, dmg, CC is something shes all worse at
she gets statchecked hard dmg and heals wise

[wide quartz]

Elluna’s backpack is signature.

[grim falcon]

A bump could be dope yep

And would feel nice to use over abyss

[latent gorge]

Her passive and being able pick someone up and take people to safety literally makes me feel like private Ryan. I'd be so sad to see that go

[wide quartz]

I do think Zeph’s group traversal is also quite signature. Maybe that’s me.

[marble granite]

I think the backpack should stay at a minimum, I think it's a very cool and core ability to the character

[fading basin]

100% is

[drifting sparrow]

for sure

[latent gorge]

He and Void are pre much the only people that coem to my mind that can do that

[fading basin]

For the things i feel are a 100% part of her identity and kit is
-backpack
-movement
-root

[grim falcon]

It is, and also that he have one of the only skill which is a point and click in the game that is the best heal in the game with 4 charges lol

[sterile geode]

I honestly think Elluna’s damage should Ramp higher as she fights, like if you let her hit you with LMB a bunch, you are going to lose.

[limber tapir]

I would not touch her backpack im gonna be honest. If anything, I'd want to change her ult and her heal, and then add some nice lvl 3 uniques, ~~and then perhaps you can remove mindblade and let her ap scale with mana ~~ (dont kill me it was a half joke pelase wait)

[sterile geode]

@wide quartz if you cant tell I like characters that excel at extended fights lol

[drifting sparrow]

Personally, I don't think just giving Elluna more healing or more damage will make her better, I think her flaws are that she's a support that doesn't provide much utility.

[turbid vector]

I'll say it again but.. give her a cute lil backpack on her back :c

it feels so wrong she doesn't have one

The wisps just.. float.

[wide quartz]

Reading..

[limber tapir]

Fate you cannot just emote yes to my no PENSATO WTF BRO

[latent gorge]

Did you get a chance to read my lvl 3 suggestions for her heal and shift? basically at end of heal it increases fire rate and with shift it leaves a trail of stars that people can walk on for movespeed

[turbid vector]

Yes I can and I will

visual design is a huge thing

if you don't understand why a character does something, or what they're doing

from a glance at them

that's really weird

[wide quartz]

She’s very powerful thematically. I like to think she doesn’t need a backpack to resurrect souls. 🙂

[limber tapir]

She doesn't need a backpack <-- i know the lore to an extent

[wide quartz]

But we also tried some of it. Readability is also tuff.

[turbid vector]

oh no sure she doesn't need a backpack to ressurect them

but to actually carry them in it would be cute

[drifting sparrow]

I think the shift thing is really cool, and I think applying buffs from healing abilities is also nice, Zeph did that with MS. I don't know if Fire rate is the best thing, but there are a lot of options there.

[turbid vector]

It's also just

[grim falcon]

I don't want her to have a backpack, but a little pocket where she put the wisp could be fun to see

[wide quartz]

I want to play around with this idea in all sorts of ways for skins, at the very least.

[turbid vector]

why is the ability named it, if she doesn't use a backpack? y'know?

[peak quiver]

It's also terrible design because it eats up all her power budget

[thorn sandal]

it will probably change

[wide quartz]

Because we think it’s fun to say and understandable. That’s all.

[thorn sandal]

i dont think giving her a backpack is needed

[limber tapir]

probably because it's placeholder rn

[drifting sparrow]

which is a little weird to me because it doesn't seem that strong anymore.

[turbid vector]

yea mayhaps not, we'll see

[mental pike]

It was called "Soulpack" on Tuesday, by the by.

[wide quartz]

I don’t know if you want a more clever lore name for it. Maybe.

[turbid vector]

Sounds cute

[fading basin]

So what have you gotten so far jess? like whats the sentiment in your eyes about elluna

[limber tapir]

@ whiplash

[sterile geode]

Her backpack isn't even her strongest ability IMO

[wide quartz]

Yeah, this is around the extent.

[latent gorge]

Yeee just throwing stuff out there, I really like shift idea personally. Plays into stars/moons which is more of her thematic. Increase fire rate isn't currently in game (in sense of like buffing ally) and I think could be a cool way to make elluna cool of being that combat medic

[turbid vector]

I see

cool

also lowkey

[wide quartz]

There’s quite a lot of posts! This is a great start.

[peak quiver]

Yeah because it had to be nerfed to oblivion because of how frustrating it is, and now Elluna sits in a spot where she's boring to play because unless her "signature" ability is made good enough, she doesn't have her "identity" but it also requires everything else to be middling on a good day

[turbid vector]

void is an S+ tier wisp rezzer.

[wide quartz]

I do gotta run though.

[fading basin]

[mental pike]

bye bye

[grim falcon]

remember to eat jess

[limber tapir]

Guys her whole shtick is that she gets power from the moon which is cracked (this is not leaks, it was in the playtest)

[turbid vector]

bai bai jess

[wide quartz]

Will eat. Will muse on Elluna.

[latent gorge]

All good! Thank you for your time with us : D. Is there an estimate time we'd want to try to restart the conversation or not for today?

[turbid vector]

enjoy!

[wide quartz]

Interested where y’all net out.

[marble granite]

go eat, and enjoy!

[fading basin]

TLDR for my thoughts

• Shes balanced right now in my eyes, but get overshadowed by the other characters that fills her role being overtuned
• Her kit is boring right now outside of movement and root
• Her identity feels a bit all over the place
• Mark is very forget and dont think about ever again type of thing

[drifting sparrow]

Bye Jess! Thank you for the chat!

[sterile geode]

Her rez is good, but I personally have had some of my best moments as her when I am able to use her mobility, her picking CC, and her ability to rez allies all at once.

[wide quartz]

I’ll probably check in if a new thought comes to mind, or a question from the above.

[sterile geode]

[wide quartz]

Let’s make it a date to catch up again next Saturday at 10AM PST.

[limber tapir]

thread lock then?

[grim falcon]

Will probably be a new one next week

[limber tapir]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[drifting sparrow]

nah, I think it'd be good to be able to come back and comment if anything else comes to mind in the meanwhile

[slow tartan]

one place i could see to add strength to elluna is to do something else with her lmb passive. like something useful for combat. maybe a charm debuff that reduces enemies' dmg dealt for a duration, or like a micro slow that slows for 99% for .01 seconds and makes movement weird if elluna keeps landing her lmbs on you. these are just ideas that took 1 minute to think of so not actually these, but something to be proactive with other than rmb in her kit before your teammates start dying would feel good. i think i get dolphyvix's point about how elluna feels to play

[fading basin]

I honestly dont think many people realize ellunas mark even exists

[slow tartan]

i know she has ramping dmg but is that only for her or does that debuff the enemy so teammates do more dmg too

[turbid vector]

Time each week converted to local is pinned too ^^

[fading basin]

Back when she mad the sun/moon shot. It was way more noticeable and actually a thing you had to play around
its only dmg

[slow tartan]

ive played her a lot in arena but i forgot how it works T_T

[slow tartan]

i dont think i played her whenever she had that

[fading basin]

She basically had one shot like the one she had now that applied a mark, and then a burst of four shorter range "sun" shots that did more dmg if the target was marked. And you could shoot only the blue long range shots by doing good timings. So you were sure you had mark on before you went for burst

[slow tartan]

that sounds crazy. was that fun?

[fading basin]

yes, it felt way more interactive than the current version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kPfqMDtU2E
first clip here has it

[ancient osprey]

(Accidentally pressed enter lol) For Elluna my mobility gameplay fantasy is to feel like I am not as restricted with where I can get to in a fight (When I play well), but instead have to optimize my positioning all around the fight to optimize my value. So like constantly rotating to different positions within the fight, going from diving in to get roots, to pressuring from flanks, jumping back to team to heal, ect.

Last time I played a lot of her was the June test (She's been nerfed quite a bit since then I believe, not all bad), and compared to other Hunter's that I've been trying, it feels like she has very little agency to create an advantage for her team, and the ways that she has to mitigate a disadvantage have a lot of counterplay. It feels like it's a massive issue for her at higher level play. I think a big contributing factor is the tether ultimate having very limited use as a proactive tool.

The backpack slow also feels really bad to me, I would rather have a smaller shield from it than have it slow. It was already not a very effective tool into teams that played around it by just taking space & standing on wisps and the self slow makes it feel not even worth trying to go for risky revives because the slow removes the outplay potential, if it's just a smaller shield, even 1hp, I could at least have the outplay potential of being able to wasd & dodge everything to outplay that way.

For the machine gun LMB vs the pistol LMB, I think the pistol LMB made you think more in abyss fights, and the machine gun LMB made you think more in other fights.

[calm basin]

You could have like a moon icon that fills up above the person you are hitting them to indicate the stacks. Then once its filled up you could have a bonus effect. Honestly RMB could even have a lvl3 that empowers full stack LMB passive

They should give elluna an orbital stike she can call in /j

[vagrant orchid]

Currently, Joule gets a UI indicator at max stacks and Elluna has no UI indicator for hers. It's all visual effects.

Kind of makes sense, as Joules stacks are more important to her kit.. but I kind of prefer having UI indicators for stacks

[forest rivet]

Still on Elluna?

[calm basin]

Kind of

[calm basin]

I really like the idea of rewarding elluna for hitting max lmb stacks on someone. It could be a burst of dmg or A dmg vurnerability for enemy. Or even cd refund for elluna.

Maybe like Rmb lvl3 could refund a part of its cd if you max stack someone.

Then you have a build for elluna that insentivises aggressio instead of safety (i am biased because I like being aggresive on her)

[fading basin]

Something that would make use of her stacks in some wau would be very good for identity

[drifting sparrow]

Zeph gets charges on his Rmb back when he hits back-to-back lmbs, maybe when she stacks up a certain amount it refunds a part of the cooldown on her heal, or something

[grim falcon]

You stack marks on enemies and at full stack if the enemy get stun/root/cc you get your dash up

And everything play around her mobility

If so then bring back heal from dash.. Or we refund heal like pensato said, getting back support stuff from her speciality (mobility) is cool too

[calm basin]

What if the ability you have at lvl 3 gets cd refund when hitting max stacks/hitting max stacked enemy

Could go any way honestly. But I do like dash refunding. Tho both dashes or the "mini" dash?

[grim falcon]

It would feel like it's almost as if it was an entire new passive rather than specific upgrades to her skills

[drifting sparrow]

I think if there was more of a gameplay loop around the dash providing utility, either the rmb or the heal, then that'd be great, but as it is: It feels like her dash is just mobility for the sake of mobility. Maybe I'm missing something though

[calm basin]

I like the idea of lvl 3 dash also giving movement speed to allies. Either in an area around the dash start or allies she dashes through

[fading basin]

something that just gives her more agency (dont know if i used agency correct but it works in my head)

[foggy sleet]

what is elluna passive stack you were talking about. never knew she has stacks

[calm basin]

Basically when she hits you she applies a stack of "moonburn" each stack increases her Lmb dmg up to a cap

Kinda like shivs passive but weaker. Its written in her Lmb description

[wild inlet]

I was out yesterday while this was on was mana talked about ?

[grim falcon]

no

[limber tapir]

It looks more like this actually

[true condor]

where is Hudson and Jin

[marble granite]

where brush boar lore

[true condor]

https://tenor.com/view/jason-glass-true-gif-21507826

[limber tapir]

I didn't change it

I would liek to be here when Jess talks about how awful some of these hunter names are

[fading basin]

I want to change the name Jin to Jim

[limber tapir]

I want you to change your name from Synoyd to "I'm really annoying"

[ancient osprey]

Ok I finished it, had an unexpectedly busy weekend.

[fading basin]

Well said Jay. Articulated alot of my issues as well i wasnt able to get worded

[true condor]

i know someone who would like to hear it ...

[calm basin]

Just calling them Jimmy and hubby

[fading basin]

no

[wide quartz]

I feel like this represents name feedback I don’t have 😅

To get back to this - will review the Elluna themes tomorrow starting at 10 AM PST.

The Oath convo in particular was really helpful; fixed a few bugs mentioned here. More to come soon.

[calm basin]

[topaz hull]

How do you feel about the direction Oath's kit has gone in over the past year or so? For the game? For the dedicated oath player? For playing against oath?

[drifting sparrow]

looking forward to it!

[fading basin]

someone ping me when it starts, i will be knee deep in uni work when it begins

[wide quartz]

Morning!

Or evening!

Have my coffee. At my desk. My dog's tapping around.

[sterile geode]

@fading basin poke

[fading basin]

i am here

so what are we doing?

im scrambling to get uni work done, ive slept 12 hours in 3 days and skipped 4 dinners. im very ready

[wide quartz]

Omg

D-do you want to get some food?

[marble granite]

hello hello

[wide quartz]

Hello!

[wide quartz]

I'll summarize what I'm seeing with Elluna just to have it all in one place. Was helpful for Oath. 🙂 And y'all can let me know if I'm missing anything.

[marble granite]

i'm gonna make some chili spaghetti and be back for the convo

[true condor]

Woah

[fading basin]

jess is typing a fat paragraph rn

[calm basin]

So it seems

[wide quartz]

For Elluna:

• Players here generally agreed that Soulpack is her signature ability. One spicy suggestion was that because it's so powerful, it shouldn't exist, heh.
• I think there's so much love for this ability and how core it is to her mobile combat medic identity, that I'd much rather find ways to make it work.
• There was good discussion around - how should we tune Soulpack?
• Typically, we try to think about what would make intuitive sense, and what risks the player is incurring when they're using an ability.
• One lever has been the shield, and the other has been the slow.
• Shield - One piece of feedback we'd get without the shield is that it would feel overly frustrating when an Elluna invalidated your Knocks - not so much because she has Soulpack alone, but that you couldn't do anything once she grabbed a Wisp. This is why the shield was helpful - it gave us a way to start finding a spot where it was just fair enough to give players playing against a way to combat it if Elluna wasn't being thoughtful about how many shots she was taking in the process, but also make Elluna players to feel like they had a chance to carry out the Wisps they picked up. There was absolutely a time where one shot just knocked Wisps off immediately, for example.
• Slow - The slow in part helps with highlighting when an Elluna is taking that Soulpack risk. It gives you a chance to respond to an Elluna aiming to pick up a Wisp, since she's quite mobile (it's part of her identity!) I'm seeing some of the feedback here though of - does this go too hard, and does that then go against her identity some? At one point, we scaled it depending on how many Wisps she had - but keeping it a flat amount seemed to be a less frustrating trade for the Elluna player.
• A fighter or a lover? - Some players love how she's just great at aerial fights, and have a lot of love for her LMB pistol trades. Some want the old optimization to give more interest to LMB. I'll be honest - when we switched to the pistol, I got immediate game feels love from the playtester survey. A lot of the themes were around satisfaction, and having less mindshare so they could focus on the mobile medic piece. So I want to be careful about where we go here, and what we're looking for.
• Some asked about adding more utility to Elluna. I think some of our conversation went down a big...rabbit hole on this one. There was discussion around how Oath and Zeph had more utility than Elluna, so Elluna should get compensated. Others thought as long as Oath and Zeph got toned down, we should be careful about Elluna.
• There was some discussion desiring the Ult to have more utility than it does now, and some discussion around the old Ult providing cover. While that was the spirit of the old Ult, players also felt that it made Elluna's identity strange in how it was more focused on AoE damage, and tuning it became even stranger over time. I've also gotten a lot of immediate Elluna Ult love in the player survey due to how sharp of a support output it's been, and how it leans into resurrection as part of her core theme. But also interested hearing about more ways to make this sharper, or clearer for you as an identity.

Edit: I typo'd and said "with the shield" - meant "without the shield."

[wide quartz]

Confirmed - I love writing fat paragraphs.

Obviously there were more themes here, but I think at least we can start here!

[true condor]

I personally think that Elluna had to be very handicapped due to how her passive works despite not having played her much. She can pontentially rez her entire team by herself maybe multiple times or safely guarantee a rez if she's possible. Unfortunately I feel like due to the nature of the passive not having any sort of restriction besides the slow when carrying a wisp makes her overall power budget be entirely allocated to that, especially with her new Rez ultimate which makes this "power" more apparent.

[fading basin]

You missed when we talked about the mark

[wide quartz]

Question - currently, the Soulpack has two restrictions. When you say the Passive doesn't have any sort of restriction, can you explain what you mean?

Ah, you just edited.

[true condor]

I'm gonna give an example

[grim falcon]

Hi Jess ! Pleasure to see you talk about the best hunter

[wide quartz]

Gotcha, I'll review the mark comments - one sec.

[wide quartz]

Hello!! I do love Elluna.

[true condor]

Imagine the following situation where Elluna's teammate dies, she goes in and rezzes him again. He dies after some time like 6 seconds, she dashes in and rezzes him again, the same happens and she repeats the process during the fight. This obviously is only a example for thought not meaning that this is always gonna happen because smart enemies will stomp wisps or deny her from trying to rez. Even though this situation is much more frequent in arena due to how combat works there.

[tepid yew]

Hi Jess! Hi chat!

[true condor]

I feel though the example above can be more exaggerated if you account for more allies being constantly backpacked in a looping cycle.

She only has a cooldown to the passive if enemies deplete her shield or stun during the carry phase. Carry limit remains untouched. Even so its 6 seconds still which means there is possibility to rescue the wisp if its not stomped if you push enemies back.

[sterile geode]

I think the only thing that I would actively change with Elluna would be her ult, give it something else, doesnt need to be a lot, but just, something. Cause it currently feels like I cant use it to make things happen, but only to stop things from happening, which feela a bit counter intuitive to her kit as a whole.

[topaz hull]

I like Seraph because she informs the way opponents and allies want to play. I do not like that her backpack is not a high skill moment that the player on elluna has to make meaningful choices to obtain. It doesnt feel like the "high reward" has an equally high risk for playing around.

I would like to see her punished more heavily for making mistakes with her backpack timing seeing as a good timing can auto win fights.

[tepid yew]

Something about elluna from me is she stands out kinda weird artisticly now? It feels like firefox / seraph are from a totally different game to the other hunters, especially now zeph has become way more.. cartoon-realism rather than being a cartoony aesthetic

[fading basin]

Personally i think her passive is in a really good spot right now. The slow doesnt feel too harsh, but i do agree its needed to not make her super OP like back in the day with it. Same with the shield. I think its a matter of people not having enough playtime against her, in higher lobbies its way more rare to get a res with her than against players with less skill. And i think with time that will fix itself as elluna is one of the more picked hunters.

For the lmb the main reason why i like the old version more is the agency it had with minmaxing the mark etc now it just doesnt have the same impact, kind of same as with the old zeph lmb/rmb.

Her ult im on the fence about, i think people are underrating the utility it has. But i think its a bit boring still. I dont know what i would change it out for, but i dont want the old slot machine ult (aka it was way too inconsistent in value)

[true condor]

What I'm trying to say is that her passive is very good because it has almost uncapped potential to potentially revive allies if the circumstances are favorable.

[sterile geode]

I do think her passive is fine, because if you drop your teammate, then you just mispositioned yourself really bad, and the slow forces you to actually think about when you can "Saving private Ryan" people

[true condor]

It's not unbalanced passive but takes away much of her power to let her have the passive the way it current is

[fading basin]

i disagree on that, i think its very easy to play against it. And when people are able to play the game more it will become less and less strong over time. But right now yeah its still on the stronger side

I could see a nerf for now and then if it is too weak during opening months, a buff rather than having it busted and then nerfing it

[lavish scaffold]

Probably less about how easy/hard it is to play against and more about how much power budget it eats.

Also, on "it will be less strong once people get better", would it not be an endless arms race between Elluna players and not-Elluna players given both should be getting better as time goes on?

[wide quartz]

@fading basin Just to restate what I'm seeing:

• Currently, LMB shots restore Mana and deal ramping damage. And after not firing for a brief time, your next shot is Empowered.
• You're looking for more LMB optimization beyond this. I think you were referring to some of the Sun/Moon iterations we did with LMB.
• I'm seeing other folks who asked for some alternatives, ex. adding damage debuff (this might be strong?), adding CC to LMB (this is very strong.)

[fading basin]

I honestly dont think it eats too much out of the power budget. From my experience its one of the abilities i get the least value out of. The strongest in her kit right now is dash or root.

[true condor]

I agree.

[calm basin]

Having a little bonus effect for hitting max stacks on an enemy would be fun Imo. Gives you something to look for in a fight besides just RMB

[wide quartz]

You know what I also just realized? @topaz hull is luke!

[lavish scaffold]

I'd argue that it eats quite a bit in comparison to what it actually does and the cost associated with it doing what it does, but I am biased.

[true condor]

The legend 🔥 🔥

[wide quartz]

I also didn't realize this is actually a mustard brand that I can buy.

[topaz hull]

Hi Safelocked

[potent gust]

Heya y'all, good morning to you!

[marble granite]

nitpicky no way

[topaz hull]

Jru bought some mustard I think, ask them if they liked it. I love it very much and order it by the case

[potent gust]

I'm on a bowl of cereals... yet it's the evening

[fading basin]

I think my biggest issue with it is the visuals. I struggle so see when im max marked etc and im close to 1k games on her now. I think the CC/debuff is a dumb idea and would make her insanely busted (could be something less busted like a dmg burst, not too large though). But yeah something that makes you think more about the mark wether thats changing visuals or how the lmb works would fix my main issues problems with it.

[marble granite]

also got my chili spaghetti and I'm back

[wide quartz]

Morning!

[tepid yew]

A frustration I have with seraph too is I think if she ults someone, I should reasonably be able to kill them + stomp their wisp without them being revived. it feels like if you can't kill + instantly stomp within ~1 second of her ulting someone, they are guarenteed the rez.
In my mind, the two options when she ults someone should be: Kill them overwhelmingly + stomp the wisp, or allow the ult to fully go off, and then kill them right after it finishes (with the latter being less ideal obviously), but the first option doesn't seem like it has enough leniency currently
3rd option i guess also just to add that you can knock her out of her allies range but that only works for a subset of hunters/powers, and i don't think having a knockback should be a required action for a team to have

[wide quartz]

Gotcha, gotcha. Now I'm there.

[calm basin]

Yeah marks are very difficult to track in a fight. I think adding like a moon icon that fills up when you hit them would be good

[wide quartz]

I think Jru might secretly be a condiment expert.

He's huge into cooking. And somehow also an insanely good engineer.

[fading basin]

these are also my issues with the ult

[fading basin]

cooking is just a food engineer, or an engineer is just code cooking

[tepid yew]

I also don't believe the ult cancels when she's stunned?
I might be wrong though idk

[topaz hull]

IMO, it should be this way

[wide quartz]

Probably a lot of truth to that.

[sterile geode]

It does

[tepid yew]

oh it does? Perhaps I have a skill issue then

[fading basin]

yeah it does, but the range is so large you have to overextend a lot to cancel it usually

[wide quartz]

Yep, Major Pleasure is right.

[potent gust]

Ngl today was one of my anticipated day of the week

[turbid vector]

One interaction I love vs elluna is being able to knock her away/far enough to cancel het ult

With myth rmb

[wide quartz]

I do like talking about the level of Ult counterplay we want, though.

[turbid vector]

Its really fun

[trail lava]

i love the counterplay to elluna ult, theres so many ways to outplay it. Reminds me alot of zilean ult

[wide quartz]

Same. I also feel goofy as Elluna when I clearly did not respect the Myth.

[drifting sparrow]

The problem I have with her ult is that it is a heal over time and a ressurection with a high cost (you need to stay in range, and you are slowed during the channel), but Zeph can just shoot his ult and it is a huge burst heal and a ressurection with just a fire-and-forget kind of result. You have no cost to the ressurect on Zeph ult, it does high damage, and it does high healing. Elluna's ult just cannot compete with that in my experience.

[wide quartz]

I love that there's that dance.

[wide quartz]

My Zephs miss more often than your Zephs...

[fading basin]

I think the biggest issue is that stomping the wisp takes too long compared to the ult activating. So could make it a bit riskier with having the ult make the wisps more vulnerable and stomp faster or something that tunes that timing. Other than that the ult has a lot of counterplay

[calm basin]

the awkward staring contest when the zilean cant escape and you dont want him to revive so you both just stand there

[tepid yew]

I don't have nearly as many issues with seraph ult then if both knockback and stun works. I do wish that the wisp stomping was a little more viable though nonetheless

[sterile geode]

I love the "dont let the baddies get you" mini game from her ult

[fading basin]

also please chat, zeph being overtuned doesnt mean we need to buff elluna. THATS HOW YOU MAKE OVER(tuned)WATCH

[sterile geode]

Agreed

[wide quartz]

Gotcha. Heard clear that it might feel overly hard to stomp a wisp that's getting Ulted by Elluna for ya.

[fading basin]

thats the only gripe i also have with the ult. right now its a very get out of jail free card for wisps

[wide quartz]

It didn't bother me as much since whatever health you stomp down is propagated to when they resurrect (ex. if you stomp most of the way, they come back up with that sliver of health.)

But yeah, I can see how people could differ on that point, for sure.

[fading basin]

Usually if that happens the ressed person has dash, elluna has heal, and theyre at the edge of the fight. so its very had to punish if they get up

[long flint]

A sliver of hp into a dash into a heal

[potent gust]

That I agree with. In certain scenarios it really feels unfair

[long flint]

I find it annoying too 😔

[tepid yew]

Also I know it might be controversial but I kinda miss when seraph had a heal on her dash. It was pretty overtuned the patch that we had that, but I liked the overemphasis on her dash in her kit, it made her feel a lot more unique as a healer and tied her closer to the action

[wide quartz]

Right - you guys are like, hey. A wisp might be punished via getting stomped while being Ulted in that exact moment, but given traversal options and Elluna's heal to begin with, probably not punished enough (even as observed by some of the Elluna players here.)

[fading basin]

could be a valid lvl 3 dash upgrade with tuning, instead of just a CD thing for lvl 3

[long flint]

Yeah I think the skill ceiling was higher with more options with the dash

[potent gust]

Sounds very good and interesting

[wide quartz]

I loved it too. Agree it was very strong, lol. The amount of big sweat feedback I saw from that one...heh.

[fading basin]

I have a clip of me healing like 3k dmg in 2 seconds or smth during a showmatch (unless i had to delete it)

[calm basin]

I think the dash through allies could give movement speed instead of a heal because I find that to fit the mobility fantasy better. (tho heal would be way better)

[wide quartz]

Yuuup.

I think what makes it a bit tough tuning-wise is - what's the lever?

[fading basin]

Would be not getting dashes back from dashing through teammates or putting it on an internal CD/or mana (make it take more mana when you heal)

[wide quartz]

If you're solving your mana problems, you can continuously Dash. If you put it behind a CD, it's sort of unintuitive.

[sterile geode]

I know I've said it before, but I do think a little boop/knockback from her target that she ults would be really cool... for the counterplay part, I do think if you are executing an ulted Wisp, it should die

[wide quartz]

Well, so - we did have versions where there was a CD IIRC. I remember folks finding it a bit buggy-feeling.

[drifting sparrow]

For sure, but I also think it is hard to talk about Elluna without also talking about Zeph, considering how they have very similar gameplay fantasies. (How does Zeph fill that fantasy? How does Elluna? Where is each character's niche? How can that niche be made more clear so metas don't become whichever one is "better", but which niche fits better in the team?)

[calm basin]

Movement speed instead of a heal?

[wide quartz]

Since there would be times where you could touch a unit but it wouldn't heal. But then sometimes it would?

[tepid yew]

I think mana costs were the right lever

[potent gust]

First time I hear that in Supervive tbf xd
But true

[wide quartz]

Mana is very important for this reason!

[tepid yew]

In any other game if you throw crazy HPS you run out of mana, even if you have built fully into mana. I don't see why seraph wouldn't naturally follow that rule

[fading basin]

Yeah make dashes cost more when it activates a heal, if you do it more overall shes gonna be extremely mana drained perma

[calm basin]

Manacost getting increased if heal? for multiple dashes

[sterile geode]

If her dash gave allies something, I think it would be a bit more interesting/unique if her dash gave a shield rather then a heal

[wide quartz]

Oh, hmmm.

[potent gust]

I still think like it falls short on every other premise tho. It only works with healing in particular

[wide quartz]

This rabbit hole goes very deep. I trust we'll hit several cases in addition to healing in future conversations.

Hahaha.

[fading basin]

thats a discussion for later when dunmuir is here

[wide quartz]

Ohhh.

[potent gust]

I trust it too, Mana will have its dish served in due time haha

[wide quartz]

Two pretty cool ideas mulling around here.

[marble granite]

my internet went out for a bit :(

[wide quartz]

Maybe also runs into some of the tank meta trappings folks were spooked of. But maybe cool?

[sterile geode]

I also think it would be co if she could give her allies the ability to apply Moon Burn... like a certain cool bass player

[calm basin]

What about movement speed buff on allies on lvl3 dash upgrade so you can play on that mobility fantasy

[fading basin]

yeah i dont think heal has to be the answer, but i would like her lvl 3 dash to be more interesting, whatever leach cooks up

[potent gust]

Safelocked, I'm curious : have you tested a mechanic that gates total healing for the team unless you go back to a camp? I was curious of that

[granite vapor]

Jumpscare

[calm basin]

ah

[sterile geode]

Also, just to quickly say my peace on Mana then move on, I think Mana is a good system and fine for the game, as long as y'all dont add a Yasuo, Riven, Gnar, or aatrox that doesn't need mana, cause then it becomes a problem (at lesst for Supervive)

[potent gust]

Eh, I don't think that's it, but we all have our own opinions, no concrete science

[drifting sparrow]

A character with low mana costs will end up playing like a character with no mana costs anyway, so no point in making a manaless character.

[wide quartz]

Yeah, I think there's something here about wanting to think about Dash positioning and optimizing it beyond Soulpack.

And Ult.

[long flint]

Does brall still get mana back from trees and bushes? I know it’s different than having no mana cost but he was really mana efficient when he had it

[wide quartz]

Maybe it's like..give me some optimization to think about before my friends get into trouble.

[potent gust]

They will play like a character with manablade with an additional item slot

[sterile geode]

Oh wait, it's actually called soulpack.... welp... one of my jokes in the Elluna video is allready out of date lol

[wide quartz]

Lol Major

[sterile geode]

Yea, I think she needs more options before allies go down

[fading basin]

i already use the ult this way. Since you can procc on people even if theyre full health i call "i have ult you can go deep" and then we push and they have extra survivability. although its very one dimensional

[drifting sparrow]

Yeah, that's something I've heard a lot in the conversations of "Zeph v Elluna" in terms of viability: Zeph keeps his allies from dying, Elluna is good once her allies have died.

[wide quartz]

True! I love using the Ult this way. Ult a teammate and call the shot. "Ulting you, go in go in go in"

[marble granite]

This, I feel, is probably Elluna's biggest issue for me, even with early R casts

[fading basin]

I do think it feels a lot like she lacks agency in fights outside of her root (dont know if i used agency right)

[drifting sparrow]

Does her ult increase max hp?

[potent gust]

Seems you used it well

[wide quartz]

Nope, it does not.

That also sounds strong. 😅

[potent gust]

Btw I can't really be of any use rn, I don't play Seraph 🙏

[calm basin]

I honestly think if elluna could give movement speed buffs to allies she could maybe protect allies better. Like if they are faster it means they dodge better = they stay alive better

[long flint]

I like the idea of a lot of her power being around her dash

[calm basin]

Same

[wide quartz]

I appreciate this! Love giving space to the folks who are mains.

I do accept playing against feedback too though, or as teammates!

[fading basin]

lvl 3 heal does this now on zeph, sorry i mixed up for a sec

[long flint]

Another reason why zeph clears elluna rn xd

[potent gust]

I mean, outside of the unfairness one edge case of Seraph's design meets (her managing to revive allies with dashes, one escaping and reviving the whole team), that's all I can contribute

[calm basin]

And not elluna. I guess the wind character giving movement speed makes sense but i do feel like ellunas emphasis on movement is a stronger case for movement speed buffs

[long flint]

Do you remember ellunas lvl 3 heal or nah, idk what it does

[potent gust]

Longing for the day a character matching my fantasy releases... I'll be the first line of defense... offense? Giving feedback to it xd

[fading basin]

yup, its double heals after being thrown. Since they removed it being the same healing always

[long flint]

Ah that’s a little strong but I think ellunas heal is the most counter able in the game, it’s so easy to see her throw it out and then anti heal

[wide quartz]

Yep, CD down, and doubled heal after throw.

[marble granite]

@latent gorge get out

[drifting sparrow]

I didn't think it did, but the problem I have with her ult stems from it not feeling very impactful to me, and it having a ton of counterplay. If you ult a wisp, they can just stomp on the wisp. You are also slowed so much and you are locked into being in relatively close proximity or the ult cancels, so you can't really run away if you are dived. Also, if your enemies simply apply antiheal, your ult is useless. If none of this happens, then you get 1 revive off, or you get to heal someone more.
Maybe it is just me, I know you mentioned that a lot of people gave immediate "I like this" feedback with her new ult, safelocked, but the ability feels so niche and unimpactful to me. I'll drop the topic of her old ult, but I really liked her old identity as this mobile support mage, with a lot of options for how to help in a fight, but now when I've tried her she feels like a mobile heal-bot, and that isn't very appealing to me.

[fading basin]

i didnt like that change for heal. I liked it more before when she had the same heal always, especially early game the heal feels very weak unless you hug your teammates which is rarely the case with such a mobile character

rather just tune down the numbers a bit if it was too much healing before, since throwing it makes it heal basically nothing now

[latent gorge]

Hey yall! Unfortunately I won't be able to partake in much conversation today but something I wanted to say about Elluna that I was talking about last time was just making her lvl 3 on shift maybe leave a trail of moon/stars that when walking through it give move speed to allies. I feel a lot of the other elluna mains will go into depth about the specifics of her but I thought I'd restate just adding a interesting lvl 3 on shift instead of flat cd and how kind of "2D" her ult is!

[latent gorge]

I can't hear you all the way up here with all your short character mains (Felix, Veigar, Ashka, Ezmo)

[wide quartz]

I think I'm struggling to understand this one. Just to say it back - you prefer a flat Heal, regardless of whether you throw it or keep it on you?

(I just didn't understand, sorry about that!)

[fading basin]

Yeah, before it was the same amount of heal wether thrown or kept on you. Now it heals less when thrown unless you go lvl 3 heal (if i remember my patches correctly)

[wide quartz]

Hmm..I'm testing something.

[grim falcon]

Uuuh

I feel like rewarding throw 2x is good tho?

Just the base heal rn is just really bad

So maybe numbers need to change a bit

But I like the throw mech

Add smth to a plain heal skill

[wide quartz]

I am done testing. Do you like the throwing optimization of heal generally, or nah?

[fading basin]

Yeah, before i threw it alot with the optimizing the burst at the end very fun. Now its not worth throwing it as the heals diminish too much.

[potent gust]

That was quite testing

[wide quartz]

Cool! Your feedback has been heard. 🙂

(I am definitely looking at tooltips post many changes. Haha.)

[vagrant orchid]

It adds to the risk/reward game though. Get close to your ally to heal puts you more at risk (and you are rewarding for putting yourself in this position)

[grim falcon]

Yeah this basically, tho I can't relate too much for the heal diminish since I stopped playing the hunter as long as she was going to stay this bad

[latent gorge]

Throwing is a lot of fun and requires player think about positioning. A lot of the fun I have on elluna in a fight is finding the perfect positioning so anything that expands upon that I find very fun and cool

[fading basin]

I believe the numbers are something like 50% less heal after throw and the lvl 3 brings it back to what it used to be

[grim falcon]

Wait really?

Wtf that's so bad ?

[wide quartz]

I would say...

[forest rivet]

[potent gust]

(genuinely asking, as I don't play her myself)
But is it a fun game to play the risks? Does it bring something to the table? Are opponents able to seize advantage of it in a meaningful matter? Or is there other ways this could be looked into that is funnier for the Elluna player yet still having openings for the opponent?

[wide quartz]

I would say - check out the next patch for this one. 🙂

[fading basin]

yeah it was in the evolving equipment updates

[vagrant orchid]

I think its fun yes. Any time I have options to get more out of an ability at an increased risk, that is decision making that I enjoy.

[forest rivet]

We still on Bunny?

[calm basin]

Yes

[drifting sparrow]

That's bonus healing, so theoretically if it healed 100 at base previously, after tossing it would now heal 150, not 200.

[grim falcon]

The patch that won't be public ?

[forest rivet]

Elluna should be able to throw wisps from her backpack. Would be like playing American football.

[grim falcon]

But heared you

[wide quartz]

Yup! I think I have a decent understanding of the cool Elluna ideas here though. I'll summarize in a sec.

[wide quartz]

Omg.

[calm basin]

Football elluna skin.

[drifting sparrow]

that would actually be sick

[wide quartz]

It's a hostage situation!

[calm basin]

It would be very funny if activating Q while using passive would allow you to kick them with the heal lmao

[wide quartz]

Hahaha.

[potent gust]

Jess, I need the Tree Wrestler Hunter as an actual main

[sterile geode]

She.... she allready can throw wisps from her backpack

[fading basin]

yes, thats what i wanted to try to say, its a combo of this + her heals generally being nerfed before that makes it feel like throwing it has no impact unless youre on lvl 3

[wide quartz]

You joke, but we did test a Wrestler at one point...

[forest rivet]

I love it! You'll see her all of a sudden throw her friends into the abyss.

[drifting sparrow]

What if Elluna could pick up enemy wisps and put them in her backpack...

[sterile geode]

Leon?

[fading basin]

nah it was druid, leon was the no abilties accidental one

[tepid yew]

leon was spinning man

[wide quartz]

There was both!

[potent gust]

I ain't joking, I know of it lol xd
I almost participated in the fan hunter event, and somebody sent me on the trail of the Tree Wrestler as it was pretty close to my concept

[sterile geode]

..... I miss gunslinger.... not the War criminal though... wonder how his trial is going

[calm basin]

She should be able to Kick them around.

[wide quartz]

Gunslinger love! Yes.

The War Criminal is always watching...

[wide quartz]

Is this...is this gameplay?

[fading basin]

okay if we're done on Elluna im gotta get working on uni stuff, need to have like 4 pages done in 30 minutes. its all your fault Jess

[wide quartz]

Oh uh

[sterile geode]

Blame Beebo, easy scapegoat

[wide quartz]

Take all my energy!!

[forest rivet]

Was there any other "out of the box" type characters like Void in previous playtests? With funky mechanics?

[fading basin]

Just a checkpoint though, hard deadline is monday at 11am

[wide quartz]

Gotcha, that's a lot better for sure.

But either way. Appreciate ya. Good luck on the paper!

[potent gust]

You can do it, we believe 💪

[wide quartz]

There's always something in the kitchen.

[sterile geode]

Boats

[forest rivet]

Need more Chaos in this game.

[potent gust]

Need a Ent/Nature unleashed hunter to have my main, that's all. People found theirs, I love Supervive but I have to default on Hunters not really my jam 😔

[forest rivet]

I need a debuff/curse hero.

[calm basin]

Let her Q pick up wisps so she can kick them around. Then you can give her a football skin and now you make billions

[grim falcon]

Still need my water support that shield ally by using her own HP but I still didn't finished her yet... please supervive add a water support

[wide quartz]

I know you guys had a Hunters jam, but this really makes me want a new thread asking you all sorts of questions around Hunters you want.

[tepid yew]

If you wanted that kinda feedback I think fate would be more than happy to run another event

[grim falcon]

Yay new event

[wide quartz]

Hmm, I think the conversation would be nice vs. a presentation, so that I can ask follow-up questions - and also notably, see what the interest is broadly.

[drifting sparrow]

I've been cooking

[limber tapir]

(ping me for shrike and also for NAMES)

[marble granite]

https://tenor.com/view/ronaldinho-soccer64-pixelated-intro-gif-17407808

[grim falcon]

👍

[grim falcon]

Would love to have a discussion about it !

[wide quartz]

Yesss.

[tepid yew]

There was a followup chat after each presentation that bidbood and jmo had, i'm sure it would be reasonable to schedule the presentations for when you're around too

[potent gust]

That'd be dope

[calm basin]

Giving me the option to make hunter ideas is not a good idea I will be posting paragraphs

[sterile geode]

I think we've slighly lost the script, lol, but I do want to get back to Elluna a tiny bit, I think Elluna has a perfect interactions with her trammates, okay interaction with her enemies, limited interactions with the world, and extremely good intra-action within her own kit.

[tepid yew]

Something that might be more interesting though could be fan concepts for items / powers / equipment

[wide quartz]

Hahah, I appreciate it.

This might be a better summary than I could have asked for.

I'll add a bit more on what I'm also observing too, but I like that.

[tepid yew]

Healing characters are designed to control the interactions between allies, not the interaction of enemies to allies or allies to enemies as a general rule, so I think this indicates that she's in a pretty good spot imo
I'm not sure I agree with limited interactions with the world, other than that she's too good with her basic kit, so stuff like abyss / large gaps / hazards don't really matter to her

[sterile geode]

I do agree, wasn't really saying it as a negative, just kind of directing how I view her kits interactions, the environment stuff I was more meaning that she doesn't interact with walls much, which isn't necessarily a bad thing

[calm basin]

Have we talked about Ellunas lvl 3 ability upgrades, I have a few ideas but idk if its been talked about already

[latent gorge]

I shared a shift idea for her but outside of that with what I've skimmed, not mych

[forest rivet]

Next?

[wide quartz]

For Elluna, I'm seeing:

• I want something to optimize before my friends get into trouble.
• Ideas thrown out there: An additional output on her Dash, a stronger thrown Heal, clearer LMB mark to communicate her LMB optimization and keep it more front of mind.
• A second callout was - Ulted wisps are too hard to stomp; even at low slivers of health, it's easy and quick to recover with an Elluna on your team.

What the heck, my post is weird

Adjusting - now it looks good. Lol.

[calm basin]

Ignoring the passive and ult for a bit cus I feel like theyve been talked about enough already
-I wish the lmb passive was more noticable and had something extra for hitting max stacks
-Hoping her lvl 3 dash would had an effect on allies (heal, shield or even ms. id preffer movement speed to allies you hit)

• Q I want to be able to kick wisps around cus itd be funny

[wide quartz]

Okay, I think I basically have Elluna themes covered. Feels good.

Wow, it's already almost 12PM.

[calm basin]

I think id dont really have other issues about her (other then the ult and passive maybe taking power budget away. I have a slight hatred towards characters whose powerbudget is too much in one ability so)

[wild inlet]

The main thing I really want to see for elluna is a more interesting dash upgrade level 3 +1 on that note

[potent gust]

Then, what's the next topic at hand? Is it time? 👀

[grim falcon]

So the bump for the ult couldn't be a thing...?

[wide quartz]

Tell me more!

Might have missed your callout on this one.

[sterile geode]

Ulting someone as Elluna booping/pushing enemies away

[grim falcon]

Except when use for engage like "Ok I ult you you can engage" I find 0 value for the ult cause too easy to counter because ppl are already on the wisp when Killing my ally, would like a bump around the wisp when use on it to get my ally then dash away

[wide quartz]

Oh, hmm.

[grim falcon]

That's why depending on the comp I see 0 value in the ult rn

[granite vapor]

As long as it kicks them within a viable area, otherwise there's gonna be a bunch of accidents (or 'accidents') where an Elluna kicks you into the void

[wild inlet]

One idea I have for the ult that I think would feel better is being a chained heal and revive on multiple allies but lowering the healing on wisps. It doesnt feel like a very impactful ult to press a lot of the time but then can be frustrating to play against at times it heavily denies wisps

[grim falcon]

Explaining why I struggle to find it relevant

[calm basin]

Elluna forces the wisp to fart causing the enemies to get off the wisp. Then elluna comes in with a gasmask and saves wisp

[granite vapor]

Pyrocynical

[wide quartz]

So you're saying that actually, you disagree and find that players generally stomp Wisps while being Ulted too quickly?

[grim falcon]

Yes, I find 0 value for the ult to be use on a wisp cause 90% of the time they stomp it easily Anyway

And since I'm a distance I have no period of time to take it

[sterile geode]

I love the idea of the boop, but less for that reason, more for the possibility of being able to "Insec" enemies based off your allies position, or booping enemies into the heart

[limber tapir]

(also like half the characters instakill wisps)

[grim falcon]

Also like that but sadly couldn't be use on abyss

[sterile geode]

Yea

[wide quartz]

We have reacheeed a conundruuum.

[grim falcon]

Imagine you ask your ally to throw himself off in the abyss to bump people in it then spike XD

[wild inlet]

yeah thats the big thing. Wisp executes are fairly common when people know what they are doing so it feel redundant a lot of the time

[grim falcon]

Yeah that too that is a hard counter

[wide quartz]

I bet. The dissonance is MMR-related.

[drifting sparrow]

I agree with Gugusea, it always has felt pretty pointless to ult a wisp

[grim falcon]

There were sessions where I didn't use ult once cause depending on comp it's basically irrelevant

[limber tapir]

You only ult before someone dies now, and the ult is completely useless if that person doesn't die bc it barely heals, but it's also a gamble, bcuz a wisp can be insta killed

[grim falcon]

And it shouldn't feel that bad

[wild inlet]

Elluna as a whole is a character design that loses a ton of value once counterplayed properly and its because of how much of the importance is on wisp play

[topaz hull]

I think it can be great to ult a wisp. It forces your opponents to position in a certain manner which is predictable to your allies. If your allies do or do not capitalize on this... that is the problem.

[limber tapir]

@drifting sparrow what

[grim falcon]

And if I could do smth directly on the wisp I'm ulting then I could set up stuff

[drifting sparrow]

And she has so much counterplay against her kit, in ways that other characters can't be countered

[drifting sparrow]

(Brall and Bishop things, 1-shotting wisps/executing to deathbox)

[potent gust]

She is supposed to be designed with as much counter play ways as the expected unfairness of one playing right. Maybe expectations are overvalued?

[vagrant orchid]

What if her ult could be used in a different way if not targeting an ally/wisp? Just spitballing

[topaz hull]

This is a trend of character's design invalidating core game mechanics in ways that are extremely negative to interact with and it is nothing something unique to Elluna's wisp interactions

[drifting sparrow]

correct

[latent gorge]

Something I'll say is as a protector main, I tend to find elluna's ult easy to counter by just standing on it

[grim falcon]

Only "skill" thing with the ult rn is timing when my ally will die to have the ult instant full hp/tp em when they die
But that is really bad and not you-dependant at all

[wild inlet]

also unless Im going crazy isnt the ult healing stopped while the wisp is being stomped ?

[grim falcon]

It is yea

[drifting sparrow]

Or when the ally is antihealed, right?

[grim falcon]

Also too

Should bypass antiheal tbf

But then ppl will call it Broken ahah

[wide quartz]

I think maybe I'm losing the plot of where this group's at, heh.

It feels divided to me on how counterable Elluna's Ult is, or how counterable we want it to be, and by what.

[wild inlet]

I think the annoying part is there is no counterplay to wisp stomping unless you have powers to help protect the wisp. a knockback + passive pickup tied to level 3 dash to help pickups would be a really really nice way to improve her wisp play at the sacrifice of healing and damage

[tepid yew]

I'm not sure I agree with this latest set of thoughts

[wild inlet]

Ellunas wisp play at a higher level is argueably worse than zeph and oath because they apply so much more pressure offensively

[latent gorge]

They also know how to punish and are aware of what to do against it

[wide quartz]

Yep, I don't doubt that additional knockback would make Elluna's kit easier to access Soulpack.

[topaz hull]

I would agree. I think Elluna's ult is very interesting in team play but there are several mechanics that make it relatively pointless (wisp executes)

[wide quartz]

Gotcha. Yeah, I think there's definitely some core debate and disagreement here.

[sterile geode]

I think we are going a bit too far into "reworking elluna" rather then "small adjustments to make her feel a bit better"

[potent gust]

Ye, seems like it to me too

[topaz hull]

Is that a bad thing?

[potent gust]

If we could hop on and test things live, why not, but this could lead to an everlasting debate when there's multiple topics for today/tonight

[wild inlet]

The only other thing I will say is Elluna and Zeph in the most recent test did finally feel on a somewhat similar level which was nice to see considering their spot on teams is pretty directly contested between each other. It would be a shame is any big changes swung the favour too much either direction

[limber tapir]

I think maybe we focus on identifying problems, and solutions can be a secondary thought

[latent gorge]

The Zeph heal nerfs def played a part i feel and I am glad they happened (this is coming from a zeph main pov as well)

[wild inlet]

exactly, a bit of mix between zeph nerfs and elluna buffs he was waaaay more impactful previously

[wide quartz]

I would also say to this...if you're on the side of, it's too easy for Elluna to pick up Wisps (as @true condor felt), then buffing Elluna's ability to pick up Wisps probably looks like a very sour move, haha.

Perhaps, if it's a difference of MMR (I'm not sure, just theorizing based on moreso knowing some of the OG names here,) giving a tool that is high-MMR specific might make more sense.

That's where my head starts going, as I'm musing on it more.

[turbid vector]

Yes

@wide quartz would you want to be a judge on this? (More just talking what you think than numbers)

Like "I found this ability cool, this concept is interesting" etc

[topaz hull]

I think Elluna's kit needs a bit more agency that doesn't revolve around dashing through allies to line up her root. That play pattern is her one real moment. I want to see her have a bit more agency around her healing / supporting.

[latent gorge]

I feel part of picking up wisps and putring yourself in a "good situation" is a lot of the skill in the BR since the map could be chaotic, multiple teams, etc. In arena maybe the one team vs other it plays diff

[topaz hull]

Zeph felt really good because players can do things like this.

[true condor]

Yes.

[sterile geode]

My problem is, Ellluna is not meant to play like that, Elluna is meant to be more of a combat scrappy support, while Zeph is a more traditional support

[topaz hull]

I think there is room to buff her passive and make her feel like the Mercy meme, but the risks of doing it at the wrong time should increase as well.

[grim falcon]

This freaking elf

[topaz hull]

https://tenor.com/view/mercy-overwatch-come-here-gif-14280244

[true condor]

I agree that it becomes very easy to pick up wisps if she is on a good situation which most cases led her to get a free rez, but I mainly play arena so that could be a totally different situation in BR which does not align with my provided feedback.

[wide quartz]

Hmm. I don't think I'm looking to be a judge. My feeling is that player opinion is often more powerful. 🙂 For me it would be cool (and helpful!) to understand what trends of themes or design spaces we feel are still a very open sea. And, what of those seem the most exciting.

[wild inlet]

It why I think the level 3 dash could possibly be a good way to achieve this (I forgot to mention but I meant air dash on the initial cast since its a longer cd - not all dashes)

It only buffs wisp pickups against players that are proactively paying attention to people looking to stomp which would be much more impactful for high MMR but will have no impact at all if the wisps are being left along as they often are in less experienced games.

[turbid vector]

Understandable
Ofc you're free to watch when the time comes

[sterile geode]

Like, would you want us to make/post our dream kits? What style of characters we want? Or what abilities we want?

[topaz hull]

I think Elluna should feel like a hero when she resurrects wisps. I think that it feels pretty bad to be against that, too.

I think it should have a high risk when she messes up but that should be when Elluna players really demonstrate their skill on the character.

[long flint]

I’m a little confused myself with the sentiment that we should buff her ability to pick up wisps. Elluna was in a great spot a few patches ago and I it was pretty hard to finish off a team with an elluna because of her ability to heal and save wisps like she does. This was exasperated a bit with brall being omega broken that patch, but I like her power being around her mobility, I don’t want more options for the wisp pick up

[sterile geode]

Tbh, right now the best elluna's are the ones who can outmaneuver an enemy team and dominate the abyss

[latent gorge]

For me, this is what the two protectors look like:
Elluna= Combat Medic zipping around in a fight to damage and heal
Zeph= Use wind to control battlefield and to heal/damage (lvl 3 heal gives move speed, e to cc, r to push people away and heal allies, shift moves everyone)

[sterile geode]

As well as getting clean revives, which she can currently do

[wide quartz]

Yep - definitely feeling the fine line.

It's why I think one way you can get out of this dilemma, perhaps. Is to think about - is there a skill check oriented towards higher-MMR players, that gives you clearance on your Ult resurrecting? (as an example of playing out everything folks have said.)

[wild inlet]

Not saying wisp pickups should be buffed. But with the other level 3s buffing damage and healing it makes sense to buff wisp pickup capabilities as the 3rd level 3 - youd have to nerf other aspects of the kit to make that possible. It is currently an upgrade that is completely redundant

[wide quartz]

One risk that knockback presents is that the output will likely benefit all skill bands.

[wild inlet]

even after wisp is picked up there is counter play. A very long cd has just been committed to make that possible and chasing is possible

[wide quartz]

But, thinking in that vein, maybe we could put that output behind a skill check. I'm not really sure what that looks like, but yeah. Just starting to play around with the thoughts here.

[potent gust]

Chasing is possible but not always a favorable plan

[sterile geode]

Possibly make it so that Executing a wisp that is being ulted by Elluna guarantees a kill on the wisp

[wide quartz]

Oh, that's interesting.

[long flint]

Yeah depends on the size of the circle and how the team fight is playing out, pretty situational. But I agree that she needs more power in her level 3’s and that’s a possible option. I think good level 3 upgrades might be what she’s missing atp

[latent gorge]

This is an idea I just had, idk how anyone would use it but just spitballing here.

Maybe elluna takes damage while ulting (like she is trading some of her hp to get someone up). Maybe even if it fails she gets knocked with then (ngl that seems like ASS but I'm throwing this out there purely for speculation/idea building)

[wild inlet]

yeah its a fine tuned passive with how broken it can be if overtuned so I can appreciate the concerns. Im just hoping it could be an option to let her be more proactive with wisp play without making her too ridiculous

[wide quartz]

Just expanding on what I'm assuming this could be related to, are you thinking:

• This gives a stronger way to combat Ulted Wisps that a few people here were asking for, but at the cost of exposing yourself.
• By doing that, maybe we can give her Ult an additional tool/power to let great Elluna players resurrect more often?

[sterile geode]

That's what I was thinking, it's a more guaranteed way to counter the wisp, what it's just completely free, and it would be nice to give her ult another option for use, or a different bonus for pulling it off

[wide quartz]

Also checking in here. When you say an upgrade is redundant, which one are you referring to?

[latent gorge]

make her ult double the cd but on successful rez resets the cd

[long flint]

Low elo ellunas would farm lmao, especially in lobbies where people don’t know to finish wisps, or even an ulted wisp in particular

[latent gorge]

Oh yeah, I think the idea is cooked just funny af LOL

[wild inlet]

the current level 3 on dash getting a minor cooldown shave feels very weak compared to the other maxed ability options. Giving elluna more mobility beyond what she has at level 2 dash feels overkill

[long flint]

Dashing through enemies anti heals and dashing through allies gives a small heal over time 😱

lol actually that would be too crazy

[wide quartz]

Gotcha. So to say it back - you're like, I'm conflicted. I believe lowering Elluna's CD doesn't feel like a good trade compared to the other ability options. But it seems spooky to juice her Dash more from a movement perspective, so not sure what to do.

And yeah, I think that goes back to some of the conversation around - maybe it could be a different output.

[latent gorge]

I suggested leaving a trail of moon/stars that increase her ms/allies, what do you think of thst for lvl 3?

[wide quartz]

Whoa. This might be best-in-class anti-heal, heh.

[wild inlet]

So I think the level 3 should be something that isnt releted to movement. Possibly either something to improve wisps play like I talked about, alternatively something to encourage dashing through allies since thats part of the kit that is rewarded slightly from the lower cd but isnt actively incentivised. Maybe something like a small shield or heal when dashing through allies like @long flint mentioned. Probably without that antiheal part as well tho

[latent gorge]

A lil bump healing would be interesting, do you think it would be something people would go over heal lvl3?

[wild inlet]

would depend on the numbers of it I suppose but it would almost certainly make it another option to consider

[latent gorge]

It does give another incentive to dash through allies which i like

[wild inlet]

would fit her theme very well. Would be less controversial than stronger wisp pickups too so I do like the sound of it the more I think about it

[wide quartz]

It's actually something I like about the shape of the Elluna + Bubble Blade combo. (Bubble Blade making it so that your heals apply a shield that's some percentage of your heal.)

[latent gorge]

Zipping around battle combat medic

[trail lava]

has the team thought of adding some form of anti heal that doesnt cut healing by 100% but instead by say 50%?

[long flint]

That would be cool, some characters applying lesser anti heal but that way everyone has a form of it in their kit

[sterile geode]

Bubble blade + tether helm was really fun, and I would have gone it all the time....buuuuuut..... Grace (my beloved) exists

[long flint]

Can we stop tether helm from spiking tho? Or is that supposed to be a thing

[lavish scaffold]

IMO everyone having some kind of antiheal, 100% antiheal or lesser, sounds like a roundabout way of saying there's too much healing in the game.

[potent gust]

Yeeaaah, not a fan of it either

[long flint]

I mean there kinda is atm haha

[grim falcon]

this

[drifting sparrow]

And also, if healers are being balanced around Bubble blade, it only makes the item feel more BiS/required. I've stated before that I'm not a fan of that so much though, so I won't clog the thread with it again.

[potent gust]

Makes everything flow charty, as it kinda implies there's one way out instead of being creative and having multiple ways for different situations

[wide quartz]

We've talked about all sorts of percentages. What are you hoping for?

[lavish scaffold]

My point was moreso that if everyone has antiheal to combat the large amounts of healing present then I'd argue that simply reducing healing would be easier rather than making antiheal a more universal thing that just prevents healers from getting to play a chunk of their kit.
Apologies for not clarifying that originally.

Universal antiheal would also just make vamp irrelevant unless vamp is allowed to heal through antiheal, which would be ??????.

[wide quartz]

Lol. Not intended. I'll at least say this is fixed.

[trail lava]

well i think one of the ways to solve alot of the healing issues that zeph/oath present is making anti heal be more accessible overall and giving more hunters sources of anti-heal but make it so that the easy to apply ones only apply at something like 50% and the ones that are bound to ults be 100%

[long flint]

Yeah I agree with you there, would make playing healer more of a chore for sure

[true condor]

Oh that explains how I died once

[wide quartz]

(I should also make sure that's in the patch notes.)

[trail lava]

also some abilits shouldnt have antiheal that do imo E.G shrikes E

[topaz hull]

Yeah I have been putting it in my survey for around 8 months that the healing system needs to be relooked at

[long flint]

But then shrikes E sucks 😭

[potent gust]

Not to be annoying, but it's getting kinda late here and it's been 2 hours of Elluna already xd

[lavish scaffold]

Then perhaps issue(s) with Shrike E lie elsewhere.

[trail lava]

shrikes E just needs to be balanced around getting scouting information rather than right now where it is used to apply anti-heal and apply the mark to enemies

[wide quartz]

Gotcha gotcha. This makes sense.

[wide quartz]

That was how much Elluna conversation was to be had!

[potent gust]

Ye ye, it was definitely needed I wont deny it, had to happen

[fading basin]

the oath one was lik 6 hours

[trail lava]

in this current patch imo theres too many tools that can exploit lack of vision (stealth/bushes) and there is almost no tools that can prevent this. Even bonfires don't reveal stealth so having a tool like shrikes E fill this niche would be very nice

[wide quartz]

Wait..how's the paper going?

(Also true. Heh.)

[potent gust]

I missed most of it, was sleeping haha

Other days that started at 3am for me, only waking up at 7-8 in the morning when you were well under way

[wide quartz]

Nitpy, what's your time zone if you're alright sharing? Pulled these up to 10AM to make it easier for NA and EU to participate, but also just nice to know if I can optimize more.

[long flint]

Yeah, I think her kit in general should be styled more towards being a scout for the team

[potent gust]

Oh it's perfect time for me. I'm from France so it's UTC+2, rn is 10pm so it's not very very late, but it starts to be late haha
It's genuinely perfect time except for Asia maybe?

[calm basin]

its 11pm here

[wide quartz]

I want to talk about vision gameeeee somedayyy.

Maybe we can take a break from Hunters for a bit and do some global systems conversations, then come back to more Hunters.

[trail lava]

would give her more of an identiy at the highest level of play which i think she is missing

[long flint]

Why use shrike e when you can place a ward

[wide quartz]

Gotcha, perfect. Just wanted to make sure!

[trail lava]

i'd like this because i think its a pretty big sorepoint espically at the very highest level of play

[last rain]

imo other then the lvl 3 mark i see no reason to ever press the button, i wish it was just like quinn and it revealed everything around you, it would make bushes less dangerous

[wide quartz]

I want to learn more. Alas. It is 1PM.

[wide quartz]

Oh, I figured Quinn would be too little interaction for this group, admittedly.

But I want to learnnn.

[drifting sparrow]

I think Shrike has an identity, it is just a high-risk, high-reward identity. She does really solid damage, but she can't set herself up to do that damage very well. She's an X-factor. If you can clutch on her and your team plays around her, she's pretty solid. If you can't, then she isn't. I think the problem in high mmr is that it is almost always more valuable to just play something safer and more consistent, like Ghost, for example.

[long flint]

lol pretty much . The only use for her E before the level 3 change was the anti heal

[last rain]

Idk, I will say walking around in NA scrims and getting jumped from a bush and getting oneshotted sucks, i wouldnt mind a button that just makes it less of a big deal

I think adding a ability with the intent of making bushes less deadly is always a good thing because bush camping is

Not good for spectators

Just not fun for either party

[drifting sparrow]

Even with scouting, I don't think her E is that valuable when it is just a glorified scan grenade. I think more could be done with her E, but it shouldn't necessarily be to the detriment of her combat ability by removing antiheal.

Also, @limber tapir we're kinda talking about Shrike rn. Shrike and Vision gaming

[limber tapir]

maybe the anti heal ????

[wide quartz]

For sure. I'm just thinking back to - what skill checks do certain outputs require? I think vision is one of those subtly extremely powerful outputs. When this group is worried about not giving outputs too freely, I just want to make sure we're being thoughtful about that here too.

[last rain]

I was being hyperbolic, the antiheal is obviously helpful/nm

[thorn sandal]

anti heal item choice

[limber tapir]

it's one of the best anti heals in the game imo

[thorn sandal]

or anti heal power

[long flint]

It’s the best imo

[topaz hull]

I think making anti heal in its current state more accesible is a mistake.

[last rain]

I see what you are saying. Makes sense too

[wide quartz]

And that's not to say, we shouldn't give vision tools to Hunters! Maybe we just need to also figure out how to make the vision tools we're giving feel more satisfying, or more aware of the fast pace of the game, or something else.

[drifting sparrow]

I really liked Blade of the Third Eye, and how it gave scan grenades. It allowed characters who had a tough time checking bushes, but had a lot of mobility, scout pretty well.

[potent gust]

I couldn't agree more. Anti-heal has to be a good tools on designs that might need it/look out for taking down that specific kind of strategy, without ever needing to be overpresent and making healing way more potent in response

[sterile geode]

Tree jumpscare = best scare in the game

[fading basin]

going like shit, but im gonna focus on relaxing, eating and getting a good nights sleep and then go hard tomorrow

[limber tapir]

I'm not certain on this, does shrike bird let you see in bushes

[long flint]

No

[trail lava]

Imo all major forms of vision (Shrike E, bonfire and scan grenades) should all reveal anyone who is in stealth and anyone who is in a bush in that range.

[wide quartz]

Wait. We're talking about vision already. No! I must go!

Here's what we're going to do.

[last rain]

Lmao

[drifting sparrow]

I'll be honest: I think a lot of our gripes with vision gaming right now comes from how bushes are, for some reason, the best way to avoid being seen.

[wide quartz]

Next Saturday, we'll talk about vision. I must. We must talk about the information game!

[trail lava]

for me if you have used some form of active vision you should be rewarded in a way that gives you real information rather than just partial info

[long flint]

Bushes are so op

[last rain]

Will it be super early in the morning? lmao

[wide quartz]

And there's a ton of things that are boiled into this. Hunter kits, Consumables, Stealth, Objectives, etc.

[limber tapir]

There are also some places where, due to the nature of the game's pov system, it is just impossible to see someone because of a wall or something

[potent gust]

The thousand hour long discussion for the thousand hour long game

[wide quartz]

What time zone are you in? Will ask the same question I asked @potent gust .

[drifting sparrow]

It also would mean that the skill check to avoid vision wouldn't be to find a nearby bush to hide in. It would come from staying just outside the range of the vision-extending ability.

[wide quartz]

All I want is for time to be the same...everywhere...

[potent gust]

You are really going Jess? Can't really get if it was for real or sarcasm

[last rain]

Well super early is a stretch im just a night owl lmao, these happen around 11 for me which giving a second thought is a really reasonable time lmao

[wide quartz]

Real. I think we gotta bottle these up into 3-hour increments generally.

[drifting sparrow]

This discussion post has actually finally broken the record of the previous post for most messages, as far as I know. Combined, they've clocked over 5k messages.
We're halfway there

[wide quartz]

That way you get the best version of me, also. I am but a small human.

[last rain]

I just tend to be either asleep or busy at 11 but i can try to make room as i wanna talk vision

[potent gust]

One day I'll get my revenge on mana 😭

[limber tapir]

Guys this just in: GAME DEVS ARE HUMAN TOO 🗣️

[wide quartz]

I too usually like sleeping in on Saturdays!

But I think I might like talking to to this group more.

[grim falcon]

Special vocal with Jess post NDA playtest? Idk if it's possible tho 🤔

[last rain]

Nu uh, they are robots who make supervive and dont exist unless they are infront of me sending messages/j

[grim falcon]

Also with all we gotta still talk about, I feel like we can cover half the saturday's of 2025 already ahhaa

[sterile geode]

I dont think I need to say what I want back for vision 🐦‍⬛🌲

[wide quartz]

I probably gotta eat some lunch, but maybe if I prep some food beforehand. 🙂 Was thinking about this too. Won't make this the only time, also.

[drifting sparrow]

Tree spy was actually such a fun power. I want it back too

[true condor]

#BringBackBrushBoars

[limber tapir]

yOU HAVE TO EAT TOO??

[wide quartz]

Unbelievable, I know.

[drifting sparrow]

Holy, devs actually are humans too

[wide quartz]

I do like cooking though, too.

Alright.

With that, I'm going to close up.

[limber tapir]

bai bai

[drifting sparrow]

Same. Cooking is fun sometimes.

[toxic depot]

hey guys i just caught up on the discussion and im ready to contribute!

[wild inlet]

see you

[wide quartz]

STEVENATOR WHY

[thorn sandal]

😭

[wide quartz]

If you guys have more thoughts on the vision and information game, keep going!

And I'll catch you on Saturday, same time, 10AM PST.

[drifting sparrow]

cya Jess! Take care!

[toxic depot]

Nah I'm mostly joking, I can wait till next saturday to talk about one of my favorite parts of the game 😄

[grim falcon]

Kay, warn us if you ever do it then

We'll be there 🫡

[last rain]

I will be taking tmr to preach how i miss focus despite it being OP

[potent gust]

Cya Jess, have a good day!

[latent gorge]

Have a good day Jess! Thank you for your time 🫡

[calm basin]

Vision game? Spy owl. Give me spy owl. 🦉
Also a healing/healer hot take

When antiheal exsists it makes most fights where healing is involved kinda jarring. And promotes heals to be strong. Atleast imo. Because the healing needs to feel effective despite the anti's
I feel that antiheal should be a thing but rare and instead have a slightly more accessible version that just reduces healing. Some ults could have heal negation to counter the multi healer teams.

In my mind as more supportive characters are added the issue will get worse. Imagine fighting with like 3 healers on your team. One of you gets caught and doesnt get antied. They just dont die. Feels bad for enemy. Then other fight they get antied and insta die. Maybe a heal reduction would make the interaction little less jarring because the heals might save them barely.

I will say healing needs to be reduced baseline if you are going to add more healer characters and that shields need a mechanic to prevent them from getting excessive.
For example shields starting to decay after like 0.5 seconds after they are cast. Enemies can speed the shield going down but there is still a window of timing for them.

If heals are less effective then they are probably good in 1v2 situations where you manage to barely save a teammate from a fatal blow. Cant really save someone from an entire teams dmg unless the characters ult is literally meant to be a single target mega heal.

[turbid vector]

https://tenor.com/view/waiting-bored-wait-lonely-dreamy-gif-9244283054391750250

20 minutes :D

[wide quartz]

Morning! I’m sleepy.

[true condor]

yes

[calm basin]

Good morning

[turbid vector]

Hi sleepy

i'm fate c:

[rose hound]

I’m so eepy 🫠

[turbid vector]

hope you slept well though ^^

[wide quartz]

Pretty good. I think I just need coffee…

[latent gorge]

so real

[rose hound]

What’s on the agenda for today?

[wide quartz]

Information game!

Vision, vision tools, stealth, what we signal, what we don’t. All of it.

[turbid vector]

Raven spy
s+ tier power, really cool

[rose hound]

I was having fun with it

[turbid vector]

it is a little bit big atm though, it gives campfire vision when you put it on a tree

which is uh, a little bit too much i think, provided you can have 2 of them at the same time

Also the new vision through walls power - love it, it's really cool

I love that you remade this into a power, basically saying "we can't have it on an item.. but a power!? lets do it!"

[fading basin]

I think information game is pretty solid right now. Sound is in a good spot, vision cones, map usage (im a map fiend) etc feels good. My biggest issue is the counters to stealth is a bit low. It feels unfair to play against at times especially characters like KP or void who can 100-0 you very fast if they get close.

[calm basin]

Wasnt that like a little nda or is it fine to talk about the test stuff because we know the power names

[turbid vector]

It's fine to talk about, just not share footage

[fading basin]

I miss having a solid counterplay towards stealth such as bonfires. They had the downside of money and nukes/people stealing them from you in various ways so it didnt feel too OP. But now stealth isnt affected by it and people just rock up on you

[wide quartz]

We saw all the Tree Spy love.

[turbid vector]

I think campfires should be allowed to be extremely safezones personally

[sterile geode]

Tree spy is back.... so I'm happy about vision

[oak nacelle]

Agreed, campfire should go back to revealing stealth/bushes

[turbid vector]

One thing i've said a lot is unreliable information is incredibly frustrating to play with

if i can't rely on the information, then it's practically useless

[calm basin]

I will say that id like ways to gather intel in the same vein as the birds that you scare.
-stuff like being able to see foot steps enemies left. As like a hunter kit part, item passive or just a passive power. I think that would be cool. I love being able to actually hunt my enemies

[fading basin]

what do you mean by unreliable information?

[turbid vector]

as in like

[wide quartz]

I was like..I want to tell this crew so bad. Lol.

[turbid vector]

I have a campfire

[cinder axle]

uavs are op

[turbid vector]

I can't guarantee there's nobody inside it

they could be in a bush

they could be in stealth

Another example would be myth passive

[sterile geode]

Lmao

[turbid vector]

It reveals anyone below 30% health in x radius around her

It's not something you can ever rely on to scout enemies, because they may be on, say, 40% health

[cinder axle]

But yeah I think UAVs in their current state do too much and campfires should atleast reveal stealth, maybe not bushes idm that much but stealth definetly

[wide quartz]

I love that this is a lever we have. We always make this check now.

[thorn sandal]

one thing i mentioned was making UAV's like apex, where it only shows in an area around the uav itself

[turbid vector]

mhm mhm

[fading basin]

Kaiju eye is the best power in the game too, by far

[cinder axle]

Idk if id go that far but yeah its really strong

[fading basin]

i guess not by far. but its top 3 for sure

[calm basin]

You could also make uav's slighty less accurate. Or just reveal the closest team to you.

[limber tapir]

abyss specialist and hoverwings:

[cinder axle]

I think a really good change potentially to counteract how strong uavs and kaiju eyes are is to have them have a bit of a delay to startup but tell everyone that ur using it

[turbid vector]

But yea like basically.. if you can trust information or not matter so so much
an example in league would be 'I warded a bush, i'm safe from ganks' (but if the enemy can bypass it, with like a stealth- Then the ward is useless, but you play confidentally because you assume it's useful)

basically having no info on the bush would be better

[wide quartz]

Reading…let’s start with stealth since Synoyd brought this topic up first.

[turbid vector]

than 'thinking' you have info

Does that make sense?

[oak nacelle]

agreed 100

[wide quartz]

For stealth, I might start with - do we like stealth as it functions today?

[fading basin]

My biggest issue with stealth right now is the counterplay it has. Right now its see the ? pop up above you. Which is okay out of fights or chaotic scenarios, but if youre in alot of visual clutter its impossible to spot and a third party just ganks you

[oak nacelle]

I still dislike that there is 2 stealth, stealth that breaks from further away potion and the true stealth with the powers that let them get into point blank range and then it's too late. Idk how many times I'm like yo there is someone invis around and they're already on top of me getting cc'd by kingpin/void into insta death. This also goes into Fatestrikes point of the fake information because you don't know which one it is. At least in league you know exactly what champs you are facing and what type of invis they have, you don't have that luxury in this game.

[turbid vector]

I didn't even realise that

[latent gorge]

it is like twitch vs teemo/neeko stelath

[fading basin]

If every stealth was like the pots (like before?) it would be fine imo.

[thorn sandal]

stealth vs camouflage

[turbid vector]

The thing here is

you aren't playing league where you KNOW what the enemies have

They could be anywhere, they could be anyone.

[fading basin]

The stealth pots feel fine, but as phenom said the fact that stealth powers let you go BONK for free basically is unfun/unfair to play against

[turbid vector]

https://tenor.com/view/imposter-tf2-it-could-be-you-it-could-be-me-spy-gif-23428031

[sterile geode]

I do personally miss having a character that could actively work with stealth as a function, and I do think it could be something fun to look into for the future. Like a character who's ULT is litterally just "I stealth"

[rose hound]

Yea I like stealth pots but stealth powers… I could do without personally

[oak nacelle]

Mod bypassing slowmode is op can you string your messages along like ours (I agree 100% with what you've been saying though, to keep the chat more organized and make it easier for her to read/respond)

[calm basin]

Id say I would be fine with stealth if it had a bigger reveal radius and if I had a way of knowing when someone is closeby. Sound queues?

[silver sable]

[fading basin]

in my opinion stealth was perfect the way it was before

[limber tapir]

I don't like how stealth just breaks for being near an enemy rather than for being in line of sight of enemy maybe? this isn't my domain tho so that's my only comment

[cinder axle]

I think mana cloak does need a more powerful invis then the pots have currently but also it shouldnt be as ludicruous as it is rn

[wide quartz]

And even then, a lot of League players didn’t really understand the difference, heh.

Yeah, this point makes sense.

[fading basin]

I would be fine if the cloak (and the other invis powers?) was just revealed from bonfire and like 5m so they cant sit on top of you invis without being revealed

[turbid vector]

mb

[cinder axle]

I think the question mark takes way too long to triggernd also doesnt really help u spot the enemy (maybe it should point in like a direction or smth

[limber tapir]

mana cloak should drain more mana than delicate battery can regenerate

[thorn sandal]

we can probably take away slowmode for a bit?

[turbid vector]

Yea should be fine

it's off now

[wide quartz]

On this point, if Stealth powers had the same reveal rules as Smokes then, would that be reasonable?

[thorn sandal]

if it gets too fast we can put it on again

[fading basin]

As mythi said, powers should probably be a stronger than pots. But something closer to pots would be better

[wide quartz]

Ahh, seeing this suggestion too now.

[turbid vector]

I think a valuable difference is also just that they allow you to be stealthed infinetly (technically)

[cinder axle]

If the power is the same strength as pots which it was for 1 playtest

it just wont be used

[turbid vector]

Pots will run out at some point

So they're already way stronger in that regard

[cinder axle]

The problem with this "true" stealth is the fact that the stealth revealing system is horrible right now, bonfires dont reveal it, the question mark and ! mark are horrible and dont actually reveal someone even when they are litearlly hugging u and if u have 1 mana item u can stay invis for 5 millenia

and if u ever run out u go back eat 1 food

and then do it again

[calm basin]

What if different types of stealth did a certain type of sound effect to notify you of their excistance? Like someone is smoke pots near id maybe hear a poof. If someone is using mana cloack id hear a buzzing sound. Or that stealth just had a bigger reveal radius. You could make it so an invis enemy running throuhg bushes makes less sound too

[thorn sandal]

and u can only place 1 ward which is the only thing that reveals it

[fading basin]

This would still be an issue during fights because of visual and auditory clutter. Where stealth comes in to play alot in third parties.

[wide quartz]

Do people generally agree with this version of stealth for Powers?

Or yeah, how do people feel about this idea?

[cinder axle]

No

This sounds horrible, and like another system you have to learn to distinguishe the sounds

[calm basin]

fair enough

[latent gorge]

I feel synoyd suggestion seems good, I am not super passioante about this subject but do think it is a good discussion to have : D

Unless it is a like "stealth" character, I believe someone shouldnt just be able to jump on oyu. Just makes unfun situatiosn most the tiem and it doesn't feel like they did anything "rewarding" for the reward of being able be on top of oyu like that

[cinder axle]

I think overall Bonfires revealing stealth is good, I honestly think they shouldnt reveal bushes. I think the root of the problem stems from how bad the system that shows you someone is in stealth is TBH

[rose hound]

Yea the meme-like sound and marks are funny but more confusing than anything for me imo

[oak nacelle]

I've always personally been anti stealth, they don't have it in other br's and I just think it doesn't work well in these type of games (even in league it is extremely frustrating). I know you guys want to fill the archetype of people who love stealth, but it was already removed from stalker because it's an unhealthy mechanic. I already know you guys are keeping it in the game so under that assumption it definitely needs to be more easily distinguishable in terms of current question mark/exclamation mechanic and bonfires need to reveal for sure

[cinder axle]

I get a question mark above my head but it doesnt tell me where or even a direction, and I get an exclamation mark if they litearlly walk into my 4head and by then its way too late

Currently u see like a shadow of someone when they walk into ! mark range but if that shadow appeared in question mark range and in ! mark range it just revealed them

it would be a lot better

[fading basin]

They added it to crypto in apex and i saw a guy on a tier 1 LAN (shoutout hakis) sit invis in the middle of the zone and like 8 teams to get top 2. which wouldve been impossible otherwise

[wide quartz]

Can you break down your last sentence a bit more? Not sure I understood.

[turbid vector]

Also about sound: having sound only queus are really rough, especially for something you can't visually see
(I am baised as I can't hear that well)

[ancient osprey]

For invis pots/smokes, I find the invis to often be most useful when it goes away, telling you that there are enemies nearby, even if you can't see them yourself. The reveal radius is so large that the invis only feels useful in evading campfires or other non-player vision effects.

It's kinda weird for a stealth themed item to have this kind of utility, where you can use it to reveal enemies rather than hide yourself, but I think that usecase is pretty cool, it's saved me from getting ambrushed on occasion.

[wide quartz]

Ah, maybe your follow-up post already does - reading now.

[calm basin]

(I am biased because I have extremely sensitive hearing...)

[fading basin]

important factor as inclusivity goes.

[cinder axle]

I can make like a paint drawing to better explain if u need

I typed it pure garbage

LMAO

[rich coral]

Yo, I gotta go now though I have a few other points regarding "information game" subjects, how long do ya think you will have discussions today?? 😣

[ancient osprey]

I also can't recall having a negative experience playing against smokes, at least with the version we've had for a while with the large reveal radius (I still can with the previous version lol).

[fading basin]

usually is 4-6 hours

Yeah most of my bad experiences in the past playtests have been against true stealth powers ft KP or void or bishop ( 🖕 mythi <3)

[cinder axle]

the amount of people I just punch into wall out of stealth

and then they just die

is so stupid

[calm basin]

I always thought the stealth reveals you if you get close enough to them. I might be missunderstanding how stealth works. Never really been stealth cheesed before Anyone can dm how it works.

[oak nacelle]

I think invis should be a mechanic that lets you maneuver around positionally whether getting to a better fighting angle or retreating, but I don't think it should be allowed that they're able to get into point blank range and have first move for free without being able to react. I'm okay with current smoke pot/invis version but maybe swap this version onto powers and just remove smoke pots. You can buff it by making the radius on which someone is revealed smaller/half of what it currently is? but I think this is much healthier than current mana cloak/new exotic stealth/brushwhacker

[wide quartz]

What I have so far from the posts who want adjustments to Stealth:

• Base Camps should reveal both Smoke and Stealth Powers.
• Base Camps should not reveal players in Brush.
• Stealth Powers should be stronger than Smokes in some way. Current suggestion is that they break unless near Base Camp.
• Clearer and more immediate directional signaling for nearby Stealthed targets.
• Some debate around whether different sounds should play for different types of Stealth.

I feel like I’m still missing a few ideas above, but just so we have a working base to talk about. 🙂

[humble shoal]

do you possibly know why they removed the ability to see what power/item the night 1 bosses have. i really enjoyed when i could use the info on my map to tell which was which. Felt it led to a more informed decision on what one i want to play for instead of the rng way it is currently

[fading basin]

I would say you missed the stealth powers right now lets you go in close for free which is too strong. other than that everything is covered imo

[calm basin]

To me its really sick when a kingpin manages to sneak near me through fog of war/bushes. I feel outplayed.
I dont feel outplayed when he B-lines to me in stealth. from infront of me. its funny tho as a jumpscare

[oak nacelle]

Yeah I agree with that, I would like the info back on what things contain especially on such a vast map where rotations/position and pathing matters

[turbid vector]

I personally think stealth should be a macro tool in supervive, but not be very good for the fight itself.
Basically you can position well without the enemy being aware you're there; but it doesnt allow you to engage a fight easily with

[trail lava]

Mana clock should not have perma uptime with stealth that doesn't break when close

And shouldn't be instant cast

[calm basin]

maybe the mana cost should scale with use time?

[trail lava]

Mana cloak right now is a significantly better than even the exotic stealth power and it's common as shit

[wide quartz]

Gotcha - thought that was captured by nature of the Basecamp reveal rule. Did you want to add another balance lever?

[trail lava]

I think it should just have like 5-10sec max uptime with a 20 to 30s cooldown

[turbid vector]

also this is just a note but the 'turning into a tree when standing still' storm shift reveals people in stealth being there due to an animation playing

[oak nacelle]

You don't always have a bonfire, my point clarifies that above so the actual usage of it getting into point blank range and having first move is unhealthy

[turbid vector]

Which it most definetly shouldnt

[violet tusk]

turn smoke consumable into a smoke bomb/grenade thats location based? similar to the new smoke clouds in the ice area

[calm basin]

Actually had a situation like this happen when chasing someone. I noticed them cus of the animation.

[fading basin]

I think making basecmap reveal is good, but youre not always gonna have a basecamp. Just need to make it so they get revealed a little bit before like mythi suggested above.

[fading basin]

^

just dont let them walk on you for free is basically what im tryna say

[calm basin]

I dont mind if someone walks up on me while behind me. I should have cheked but them walking infront of me should give away their position in my mind.

[ancient osprey]

I think smokes should probably be reworked if campfires reveal them tbh, because at that point they don't even feel like they are useful as a stealth tool to me, they still have interesting uses that I like, but those uses don't really match my expectations of what stealth would be used for, and might make the item feel too niche to feel good to pick up and use.

[wide quartz]

Gotcha - always reveal some distance away, regardless of Stealth type. Editing.

[fading basin]

phenom worded it perfectly here for me

[wide quartz]

Ahh. Yes, this was the tension.

[fading basin]

I dont really have a perfect fix, but if it makes it feel more fair to play against its 👍 for me

[wide quartz]

I think what Jay just said is important to talk about.

What do you want to use Stealth for?

[oak nacelle]

bumping @wide quartz

[trail lava]

Yea agreed pretty much

[humble shoal]

can smokes not be the exception to the campfires revealing?

[trail lava]

Stealth good for being sneaky and getting into postion

[humble shoal]

simular to how they work in dota 2

[trail lava]

It's bad for being able to one-shot someone from stealth

[fading basin]

I pretty much agree with phenom

[trail lava]

Stealth being op also just inhenritly makes kingpin significantly better

[ancient osprey]

Yeah I agree with those use cases.

[trail lava]

So removing this makes balancing him alot easier

[wide quartz]

I’ll also take this!

[wide quartz]

Oh! Part of this suggestion was also to just remove Smoke Consumables.

[cinder axle]

ok so in the exclamation mark currently u get like an afterimage of people if they walk around in it. I think that if this afterimage was moved to the question mark zone instead and just make the exclamation mark zone reveal. It would feel a lot better

im very bad

at drawing

i got an f in my drawing thing at school

lmao

[turbid vector]

It's great, we love mspaint art

[fading basin]

I would like to keep the pots in still

[wide quartz]

@oak nacelle Is there a reason you wanted to remove Smokes in addition to increasing reveal distances?

[dense lava]

Using stealth pots to gain movement speed and rotate around the map has been really fun for me personally. I believe campfires should reveal you, and having a minimum distance that reveals you from the enemy is definitely a must

[oak nacelle]

You can keep smoke pots the problem is that powers then become null if they become a smoke pots version

[fading basin]

as long as powers and pots have different use cases in some way i think theyre healthy for the game

[oak nacelle]

and no one will take them when you can pick up a full team invis that does the same thing

[wide quartz]

I love this.

[cinder axle]

This is why we have said that smokes and powers should have different levels of stealth

[oak nacelle]

so just make powers have half the radius but same version of stealth?

[wide quartz]

I need to pin up some of these MS paint sketches on my wall sometime.

[cinder axle]

Could even go an extreme route and make it so pots can go through bonfires

but powers cant

[oak nacelle]

I feel like that is awkward and still gives fake info because u don't know what invis it is

Also I just don't like having 2 different invis because you never know which one it is until they're revealed

so how safe from the invis do I need to play?

[cinder axle]

Because currently anyways if ur standing on ur bon and someone walks up with a pot u will most likely reveal them before they even reach the bon anyways

[turbid vector]

I just imagine a safelocked fireside video, and my sketch of never catching you with a leek in the background

[ancient osprey]

I'm pretty sure the reveal range of invis pots currently is basically just as far as the range you get the ? mark in the first place.

[cinder axle]

nah deffo not

the pots range is fcking massive

u get spotted from like 2 years away

[humble shoal]

bumping @wide quartz

[cinder axle]

I like that they dont

[oak nacelle]

yeah I would like this discussion to be next after invis

[cinder axle]

I think the game currently has information overload

[oak nacelle]

I feel like crates not showing stuff is okay, but main bosses and objectives? awkward imo

[humble shoal]

i dislike playing for an objective though that can just rng be worse than the other one

[oak nacelle]

souls shouldn't show either at that point

[ancient osprey]

Yeah that's what I'm saying, you get spotted before the question mark really makes anyone think about the invis in the first place, if not before the question mark even appears.

[drifting sparrow]

Just catching up, I think the info game around bushes is slightly weird rn because it is just the catch-all "avoid vision" thing, and I feel like a lot of people complain about that. My take is that bushes maybe shouldn't be universally good for avoiding detection, but I do like the occasional jukes by hiding in a bush for a moment

[cinder axle]

I agree that it feels bad sometimes but it also causes more fights cause people wanna check out what it is

[wide quartz]

Stealth

• Like using it to be sneaky and get into position [some minimum distance away from another enemy team.]
• Like being able to bypass a Basecamp with Smokes. Maybe capturing them too?
• At melee range, getting ambushed from someone in Brush feels appropriate, and less so for Stealth.

[cinder axle]

and right now there arent many objectives to fight ove

[drifting sparrow]

With stealth, I agree with the others: It should mainly be a macro tool to hide your rotations and shouldn't be so strong for huge gank plays