feedback re: ending SE on Thu Apr 11

[merry breach]

.

[little meteor]

cheers

[balmy night]

cheers

[wheat forum]

Go to mainnet

Congratulation

[vast dome]

🎉 🎉 🎉

[tawdry girder]

Let's goo

[glacial mica]

it still have time to submit s task？

[tawdry girder]

Proposal coming out today?

[cursive birch]

🎉 🎉 🎉

[merry breach]

we will close S Class submissions at the end of the competition; open until then

[merry breach]

we're going to propose this to the Anoma Foundation, unless there's reason to think that we shouldn't

[gusty helm]

How about pending submission?

[tawdry girder]

Go godspeed namada mainnet

[shadow elbow]

That means final results will take more time ?

[merry breach]

yeah, the end of the competition would be the cut-off for new submissions

[merry breach]

yes

[fleet furnace]

Nice

[balmy night]

Are submitted submissions still allowed to be updated based on the reviewer feedback after 11 April?

[quasi bear]

proposal about what?

[tawdry girder]

To end the SE

We need to vote right?

[quasi bear]

not sure that we need to vote for that. The team just can stop competition and thats it.

[tawdry girder]

Donno, either will have to see what happen

[tropic slate]

@west hedge could probably stop it as well 😄 but it will be halt

[merry breach]

what kind of updates?

[merry breach]

no governance proposal, because the stake-weight of NAAN isn't a good representation of what participants want

[tawdry girder]

Oh OK thanks for clarifying 🙂

[west hedge]

You overestimate this lad 😂

[balmy night]

Currently there are about 160 pending submissions, we still don't know if they meet the requirements to pass, can we update them to meet the requirements after SE ends?

if no, please let us know the result of our submission before the SE end, we will fix the issue of the the submission to reach the requirement

[quick cloud]

Oh, what about the Shielded Rewards that were planned to go live tomorrow (?)

[merry breach]

okay good Q! Spork says he'll have to think about this and make an announcement

[merry breach]

we'll be able to test them out by shielding NAAN, but it's apparently not a requirement for the competition (the shielded set rewards)

the ATOM channel from the proposal is frozen, and it's still a mystery that's being investigated by Heliax

[west hedge]

I can replicate the freezing of channels, see convo over at #1222959128629215262

[tropic slate]

to infinity and beyond 🚀

[halcyon swift]

What about the uptime that is incorrectly displayed in leaderboard?

[floral finch]

@merry breach please update the nebb before epoch 91

[west hedge]

Starting here: #1222959128629215262 message.

In a nutshell: doing an IBC transfer to a znam address without adding a memo causes a newly made channel to freeze immediately. So I speculate it happens when a shielded IBC transfer isn't done correctly (by adding a wrong memo or none at all) or the address field is not restrictive enough.

But yeah, it's also reported in the Github issue

[merry breach]

i'm preparing an announcement, but we discussed in Validator Circle, see notes #🚨-validator-alerts message

cc @floral finch

https://knowabl.notion.site/Previous-Validator-Circles-458ac5d5429f4f8fa31d83146ad70b77 the 'important points' part

[halcyon swift]

got it, I was there too, asked a question but didn't wait for the end)

[merry breach]

link?

[west hedge]

https://github.com/heliaxdev/hermes/issues/27

[halcyon swift]

I sent an email to [e-mail] with the Finding security vulnerabilities task on the 7th of March, but nobody answered me and added it to the table is this task?
Who can I write to exactly?

[west hedge]

(issue opened by @kindred phoenix btw)

[tropic slate]

Spork

[merry breach]

yeah i think Spork, DM him and he can likely provide support

[blazing wave]

🔥 🔥 🔥
Next - mainnet?

[merry breach]

#🏠🔥-housefire-canary-net?

[silk copper]

@merry breach I think it is important that the Nebb is correctly updated asap for transparency, especially before the SE ends, and then after it ends it would remain to add only the last pending S task submissions

[merry breach]

why do you think it's important before the SE ends? i agree that it's important, but curious about your reasoning

[tired wraith]

can this really be?

[untold bronze]

no comments yet 👀

[silk copper]

For example, in the excel for S tasks it is not clear which submissions are for pilots or crew, so calculating the points for each submission according to the pool of points and total submissions is complex. Also, in the Nebb it is not indicated for each pilot or crew which amount of points is for A, B, C or S tasks. So having an updated Nebb helps to keep track of how ROIDs are changing and helps to better organise the strategy. Also initially with the Nebb correctly updated it was easier to see if some actions were giving points for A tasks or not, but for weeks since the Nebb wasn't updated this is also more confusing. If it is just an issue of the Nebb UX but the correct ROIDs exist internally, maybe some excel could be shared of the current ROIDs of the top 100 pilots and crew while the Nebb is finally fixed?

[untold bronze]

It remains unclear to me how ready the project is for release on the mainnet/if: the code is not 100% ready for launch - there are a number of errors that need to be fixed, how do you imagine this? If we are talking about solving problems after the fact, then the question is settled... but is this correct? open question…

[untold bronze]

Great question, sir. I was looking forward to a clear and comprehensive answer. Let's see if he will...

[strong lotus]

i think we should update the nebb first, it's still very outdated (last update mar 17)

[quick cloud]

The end of the Shielded Expedition is not the beginning of mainnet

Fixing the broken stuff properly takes longer than participants want the Shielded Expedition to run. It also puts a burden on the engineers if they have to prioritize the Shielded Expedition over what is needed for mainnet.

There might be a future event to test the broken and missing stuff.

[feral dagger]

April 11 end date sounds good

[feral dagger]

Agreed

[rain bobcat]

it doesn’t matter if your place is now #50 and suddenly becomes #80. but if now I think that I am in the table #90, but after the update I will move to #101, and I won’t be able to fix or complete anything, then it will be very disappointing. besides, there are still no explanations about uptime and voting. and either you will have to say that appeals are not accepted, or listen to complaints for a couple more weeks and find out why someone fell out of the top 100.

[tired wraith]

this right here

[tender plover]

this is good

[fringe gate]

Before finishing the project, points and Nebb must be updated. Let everyone know what tasks are missing and what needs to be added.
I see that the Evaluated S-Class Submissions (Batches) sheet for Tasks S5 and S6 has been submitted for a long time and the dev has not yet reviewed it/no comments.

[rare flax]

Since this is a one-off competition, please be transparent. I submitted the s class assignment and it was reviewed and approved, but the ROIDs didn't change, which is disturbing

[charred terrace]

Yeah this 100%

End on 11th and let the team do what they need to do

[tulip pecan]

https://github.com/heliaxdev/hermes/issues/26

[west hedge]

Oh, whattt, very interesting! I didn't see this!

This is likely all related, did you get frozen channels in your testing? It seems to not necessarily happen immediately now, you can check the testing we've been doing in #1222959128629215262

I understand that you do not want to give away too much info there in that issue btw hehe

Got a feeling you've got an interesting app for us in store 👀!

[tulip pecan]

Yeah, the IBC channel freezes and the relayer keeps sending unsuccessful txs, draining its all balance

relayer looks like it's going to be a pain in the mainnet :/

[west hedge]

You're probably the only person who's attempting to write a contract, atomic approach, I think

Yeah damn, clock also ticking, no new SE code will drop either to improve anything

Ah you're speaking bout mainnet, yeah idd. This needs solving though. Frozen channels like these can't happen then.

😂 Should I remove that message?

[tulip pecan]

which one

[west hedge]

This.

[tulip pecan]

no problem for me

[west hedge]

Oki yes

I only used alot of wacky solidity

Should've jumped sooner into CosmWasm

Hope you got enough time to finish yours! I'm curious to see yours :)!

Oh wow, 11th of April sounded like a good amount of days left, though it's only 6 more.

[tulip pecan]

halt the chain and buy us some time 🤣

[west hedge]

😂, I think the zen halt jokes will never seize

[tulip pecan]

They said they would make an announcement 2 weeks before the end of SE

I guess they want to speed things up

[west hedge]

Ah I remember hearing a week in advance notice. Didn't actually think it would exactly be a week tho

[west hedge]

Yeah, think many do want this

Eyo I will go sleep though, sisters are going to visit tomorrow and they will smack me left and right if I look like a drained zombie

They'll probably smack me either way

[tulip pecan]

GN

[west hedge]

Good night dude! And good luck if you're busy atm!

[feral dagger]

it was always a week's notice I think.

[hardy cobalt]

woohoo 🥳

[devout tusk]

For those who write that NEBB needs to be updated before completion: yesterday this topic was discussed on zoom, one of the developers said that they spend too much time developing and fixing this NEBB and after the expedition this code will not be needed. They want to devote all their efforts to developing a version for the mainnet, and towards the end of the expedition they want to update NEBB for the last time or post a JSON file with the results, which will show what tasks and how many points were credited to each participant.

[tired wraith]

hm. interesting

[balmy night]

agree, we dont need to fix the NEBB interface, we need the data 🤣

[floral finch]

Data😤

[modest moth]

I think you would be very happy if nebb never get updated😅

[tired wraith]

I don't see why we need status before it ends (though ofc would be nice to see positions and such.). Of course it needs to be done properly after the fashion as to ensure everyone has a feel the competition is fair and transparent.

Doubt most "special" s-classes would be rated before end of expedition in any case.

[balmy night]

it's just an interface, the exact score is already stored on the backend, not interesting at all

[modest moth]

Can we have aceess to backend score 🥲

[merry breach]

thanks! is this an accurate summary of what you're saying?

• you're flying blind in the competition without knowing scores or score changes
• realtime updates give feedback for strategy, eg. whether A Class tasks are providing points
• if there's any way (even low-tech or limited) to show more real-time updates, it would be very helpful for competing

[merry breach]

you're saying that not knowing what to expect makes it difficult to adapt / appeal before decisions about the contest are finalized, correct?

and several others are saying that it's not the Nebb that's important, it's the back-end scoring data

[rain bobcat]

I'm saying that many may be surprised and disappointed by the final result. then there will be a lot of negativity, questions and appeals. but in fact the testnet will already be completed. when the leaderboard is not updated for one day, this is normal and global changes are unlikely to occur in it. but when it is not updated for three weeks, then after the update it will become completely different. Well, as the guys said above, we don’t need a website, a table is enough

[shadow elbow]

I agree with this saying . it would be better to show some results from time to time . may be a google sheet will be enough

[merry breach]

okay but if i wanted to say this in a sentence (fewer words) without sacrificing meaning, would this work?

"we need periodically updated back-end scoring data so that we know what to expect and we can adapt / appeal before the contest is finalized"

[rain bobcat]

yes, you are right. You formulated it even better above in the message. not only about the appeal, more about strategy and the opportunity to fix something and finish it before the testnet is completed. Thank you

[merry breach]

essentially this, yeah? #1225503189932052653 message

okay @here, i think we're good to finalize the proposed end date, but the devs should understand this:

we're flying blind in the competition without knowing scores or score changes. if we know what to expect, we can adapt strategy / appeal before the contest is finalized. periodic score updates set expectations and give feedback for strategy, eg. whether completed A Class tasks have been awarded ROID. if there's any way (even low-tech or limited) to show more regular updates, it would be very important for competing

[tawdry girder]

Sounds good!

[delicate harbor]

Leaderboard web said updated but my point not updated ??

[tawdry girder]

Strange don't know either.
But the last time i saw it says updated and it reflect after 6-8 hours.

[wicked prawn]

good

[tropic slate]

crew is updated and pilot is not

[tawdry girder]

Updated but ranking remain same 😂

[quick cloud]

No changes since at least 26 March

[tawdry girder]

Based on my experience, it seems like after the update shows on the website it takes around 6-8 hours to reflect. The same happened with the last update.

[floral finch]

Just date updated nothing changes in ranking

[round gulch]

Gavin I have a question about this. In essence our score has not changed since pretty much the competition started, perhaps counting one S-Class. We submitted another 3 tasks that were counted on the 22nd and 29th, and no score changes have happened. Is this normal for everyone? From talking to friends here other peoples scores have changed. We understand the NEBB is not working but we have seen absolutely no score changes while other people seem to see irregular changes but they do update?

[quick cloud]

What do you mean by counted?

Flagged with Eligible for ROIDs?

[floral finch]

Yes i see someone said this that he's two s class task got approved but didn't get any roids and no change in rank

[floral finch]

Yes

[floral finch]

#1220430590315204660 message

[quick cloud]

I observed the last change in the scoreboard on 26 March. The sheet says the last database refresh was 29 March. At that time many S Class Asteroids were pending review. By now some of those have been reviewed, but since the NEBB shows scores from the 26th, they will not be reflected yet.

Only talking about Crew Members though. I have not been able to see the Pilots scoreboard for days.

[vagrant girder]

As for me, the rating itself is not so important at the moment, but I would like to know whether the S tasks we submitted before the end of the expedition were approved or not. If they didn’t accept, we would have a couple of days left to fix something

[round gulch]

Yes, marked elegible for roids, but my points on nebb have not changed materially in over a month.

[merry breach]

that totally makes sense
Spork is preparing an announcement

[merry breach]

tbh i don't know
i wish i could be of more help

ideally we'll have back-end data ASAP that you can use to verify

[tawdry girder]

Yes this will be very helpful!

[quick cloud]

NEBB sync improvement: S Class parallel verification

• Improve Asteroid scan speed parallelization of ROID fetching

[tawdry girder]

For me , I did wait for the last hour when the s-e ends and after finalzing,

That way it will be much easy for the team behind to allocate points

For example on S class

Like for rpc points total roids allocation for rpc/ number of yes for rpc
And so on, makes everything easier for the team as well.

[tawdry girder]

S CLASS PARALLEL VERIFICATION = TWO or more HUMAN
😆

[quick cloud]

I tried to be subtle 😅

[tawdry girder]

Hahaha

[quick cloud]

Of course there has to be consensus in the verification protocol, so it is not a trivial implementation.

"The Mythical Man-Month"

[tulip pecan]

looooool

[west hedge]

Oh wow just seeing this 😂, Rigorous...you should rename to rigolo.

[tulip pecan]

bro is a genius

[west hedge]

Yeah haha, he witty with it

[tulip pecan]

can you share an example rust code? how can we do this?

[quick cloud]

err... sure ... let me get chatgp. ooops

[balmy night]

let do it bro

[devout tusk]

@merry breach I would like Anoma and the project team to give an explanation in advance or maybe a solution to this situation: you allowed pilots to participate in the crew. What if the same person takes both the winning places? IMHO this is overkill and such a person will need to be given only one winning place and excluded from the other sample.

[tired wraith]

it's been discussed a lot and brought to team for consideration. remember that those of us competing in both classes do so 100% in line with communicated rules

[devout tusk]

do they do different s class tasks for both the pilot and the crew?

[tired wraith]

yes as per rules clarification from Spork (we also put in double amount of work.....)

[devout tusk]

that is, tasks sent for pilots cannot be accepted as crew tasks?

[tired wraith]

not sure exactly what you mean? It can't be the exact same task no.

(ie I can't submit my votes tool on both pilot and crew, nor rpc task on both)

but again, this has been discussed at length previously with differing opinions, and is part of the list of considerations for team that gavin sent them.

[devout tusk]

Well, in any case, I would like this to be some kind of proposal, so that the community would definitely decide this point, because there are only 100 winning places for the crew, it would be unfair if those who win as pilot take a place there, IMHO
Since the rules here may change as the expedition progresses, I want to propose this point for discussion again

[tired wraith]

like I said it has been discussed at length already and has been forwarded to the team for consideration. We don't take votes on anything else regarding this competition either, it's ultimately team who decides. That being said, having put in the extra work here, I am thoroughly disappointed in this being a point of contention, but again, it has been forwarded to team..

[devout tusk]

I'm currently looking at S tasks subclasses for both Pilots and Crews. They are the same. I don’t want to waste time comparing the submitted decisions of pilots and crew (at least the team should do this). But what is the chance that a dual participant will do different RPC/INDEXER and IBC?

[tired wraith]

I don't feel like discussing this any more tbh. I'm disappointed in your take here but can't do anything about it.

[devout tusk]

Do you agree that this is some kind of sybiling?

[devout tusk]

I just want honesty and transparency. This is essentially an approved sybiling. But if the team decides that this is allowed, that is their decision, we only agree with their rules. Sorry if this somehow offended you, but I'm not getting personal, I'm just discussing a flaw in the rules

[tired wraith]

If you mean sybiling, then absolutely not. Sybil is defined as something entirely different and by nature deceptive/covert behavior. Entering into a competition in two different classes when explicitly allowed and confirmed allowed every step of the way. No that's not sybil behavior. (this of course given transparency between having one pilot and one crew account under same names)

[tired wraith]

of course it offends me. how would you feel if you competed in good faith as allowed and confirmed and then people come and accuse you of sybiling?

if it should be allowed is something different but again, similar sentiments on my part

[devout tusk]

Okay, I’ll wait for a response from Gavin, again, I’m sorry if I offended you, it definitely wasn’t on purpose.

[balmy night]

👀

[fringe gate]

My task numbers 1301, 1371 sent on March 7, March 9 - have not been reviewed yet, while tasks of the same category sent at the end of March have been reviewed? Do we need to look in chronological order??

[glacial mica]

A pilot also is a crew, it seems a little unfair?

the competition only has 200 winners, it should not happen,I think

[tired wraith]

it has been forwarded to team for consideration, and like I said above, we were told before competition that it was fine.