♿│accessibility-discussions

[lost obsidian]

I very much agree, yeah!

I meant it more for the "lots of different controllers" issue. If they implement full support just for the xbox control scheme, that should cover the vast majority of controllers, custom included. Not sure how it works with the playstation layout, i've never had one of those, but i'm sure it's also quite doable

[green kelp]

If only UE had a controller library that would make controller support easy to implement. Or graphics and audio options that would help with accessibility.

[sand bough]

ofc it's gaslighting.. I have no problem writing it off as such. As to 'not worth fighting' someone so ignorant.. I guess I'm a different kind of 'fighter' then.. because in my own personal experience, all of this type of fight encounters that level of ignorance at every turn.. so I simply look at what I'm fighting for.. is it worth fighting for? I've been doing this kind of 'fight' every day of the last 30+ years and if I never chose to stand for what's right because the opponent was too stupid to be worth fighting I'd never stand up for anything. I'm of the mind that I don't care about the 'who' if the 'cause' is worth fighting for. To me, it is. I hold no ill will toward anyone who chooses not to fight, or even those who fight differently. I take some of the comments in here as criticizing me for fighting for accessibility tools in Palia... and.. sorry, not sorry. I'm too old now to stop fighting for what's right. I called out a troll that needed calling out (in my own personal opinion) and I can't see anything wrong with that.

[pine hornet]

I actually take some level of offense to the concept that people can be "too stupid to be worth" anything. (Aside from how the ableism inherent in "stupid" and "worth" is what makes that phrase have any meaning at all,) I take the objecting opinion because I firmly believe that all levels of ignorance can be educated. Some take more work than others. We don't have the power over other adults to do anything but "gentle parenting" to encourage them to change, of course, but a constant pressure of such encouragement will eventually do so, and I've seen it happen many times.

However, confrontational education (aka "feeding the troll") does not work. It justifies their behavior and raises their emotions, reinforcing the desire to continue trolling, because most people troll when they're bored . Furthermore, if you do actually manage to nick someone's ego, unfortunately, causing people to become defensive makes them unteachable, by anyone, for a significant length of time. For that reason, I think it's better to ignore trolls unless you can approach them with logic and empathy; triggering them can undo quite a lot of someone else's work.

Sorry for all the edits. I'm done now

[sand bough]

"It justifies their behavior"? We'll simply have to agree to disagree.. pretty much everything, including the changes made with your edits. Nothing, bar none, JUSTIFIES a troll's behaviour.

[pine hornet]

justification is subjective

[sand bough]

So does that subjectivity only apply to trolls or does it also apply to ableists?

[pine hornet]

Forgive me for leaving out the parenthetical "(in their mind)" that is part of the definition of the word "justification"

[pine hornet]

I fail to understand your point. everyone's justifications justify themselves. Generally speaking, no human makes an action that they don't believe in, and any alleged attack on their actions or their beliefs makes them defensive and causes them to "justify" further aggression based on their own feelings.

It takes a lot of self-reflection to be aware of when you're justifying ngl. I'm not very good at noticing it myself.

[sand bough]

I'm going to offer my perspective on this convo and then I'm out (because I don't believe there is "worth" in continuing)... you appear to be DEFENDING a troll while suggesting that me calling out said troll, is wrong. I don't happen to agree and I simply wonder if you would spend that effort defending an ableist as much. Not a question looking for an answer.. simply thinking out loud. You have successfully changed my mind. I do need to spend time rethinking whether or not Palia accessibility is worth fighting for.

[pine hornet]

that's... certainly not what i intended to say

and god, being autistic, being told that there's not "worth in continuing" to have a discussion with me, especially as a mockery of how i just pointed out how calling people stupid and judging their worth by their intellectual ability is ableism, is seriously triggering

the absolute irony of me agreeing with someone and then getting emotionally punched in the gut by them, God the internet never gets old

[sand bough]

AT NO POINT did I say or even suggest that there's not worth continuing a discussion with you.. I said, and if you go read it again you might see.. I said that THAT conversation wasn't worth continuing.

[chilly shale]

If you can remain calm then presenting your point a single time is fine, but beyond that we have the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" for a reason. The troll is there to irritate others and will simply escalate when someone decides to engage. The more important the topic is to someone, the harder it is to stay calm when defending it. The moment one side takes something said personally, they will become defensive and more likely to respond in kind. Instead, make the information supporting your point available, and freely answer questions asked, but don't waste your time trying to convince someone when they are only there to stir up trouble. When they are in a less confrontational mood the information will still be there to sate any curiosity and just be there to answer questions if they ask. You cannot change someone's mind by force, you only build up resentment by trying, instead they must see a reason to want to change.

[slender mulch]

Hello,

I read over the document and I thought this might help for people that struggle to catch bugs that pop from gather points.

I use the smoke candle (with smoke bombs) while gathering and this helps you avoid startling the bugs so you can step back and gather safely. Sometimes if you are too close the bug might pop right at you and that will startle them into fleeing.

I hope this helps bug catchers.

[barren atlas]

that's a good one for @hoary heron 's workaround doc!

[slender mulch]

Also, not sure if this was in there somewhere but different wording used.

A sonar like waves on the screen for deaf or people with hearing issues to visually see the "sounds" gatherables make.

Like hq bugs make this discordant sound or different plants sound different. I have the music off so I can hear stuff when running around even without turning camera to look. But someone who can't hear or hear very well can't take advantage.

[barren atlas]

A sonar like waves on the screen for deaf or people with hearing issues to visually see the "sounds" gatherables make.

Diagetic sound! Used the FFXIV reference; it adds a visual popup with waves

[slender mulch]

I figured it might have been one of the words i didn't recognize

Anyway that's all I feel like I can help with with the stuff in game or issues I can understand.

[barren atlas]

It gives you a bar and when there's a sound it does sound waves

[slender mulch]

I never could see the ff14 one since i play on ps and that feature isn't available on console.

[chilly shale]

Visible waves emanating out from every source to correspond to the sound they make could be neat.

[barren atlas]

exclamation points or some other visual cue would be nice

[chilly shale]

Now one thing I wish they would remove is the ambient bug sounds. The ones that don't come from an actual bug we can catch. If I hear a bug it should lead me to something if they are going to include bug catching in the game...same with animal noises and such...

[green kelp]

My audio processing disorder strongly dislikes ambient noises, like weather and "nature", in games.

[static wolf]

I mean, I'd prefer having individual sliders for those instead of just removing it, since there are some times where I'm just vibing in game and like the ambient noises, but I agree that all of the noises should be able to be individually tuned so you can make things louder/quieter based on your needs & preferences

like I've heard a lot of people with misophonia have problems with the eating sound in game, and I found out very recently that evidently starred bugs make a sound? but i've never heard it before, so that's something I want to turn up without turning up everything else they've decided fits under that slider

[chilly shale]

The problem with the ambient bug noises though is they don't lead to bugs. And when some of those sounds are the typical noises some of the bugs we actually can catch make then it is a bit of an issue. With the problem some have seeing the bugs in the high grasses and such, being able to instead listen for the bug should be a valid alternative to at least have a better idea of where to look, but when the cricket sounds don't lead to a cricket, it doesn't work. And the fact that we do have other sounds from the bugs we can hear implying we are supposed to be able to use sound at least a little to be aware of where they are hiding makes the inclusion of unlinked bug sounds just feel more out of place.

[static wolf]

I mean, I agree, which is why I think there should be a slider to turn ambient/non-game bug sounds down/off, but I'd like it to be an option so when I just want to do a fishing session, I can turn the ambient sounds up again bc they help relieve some of my stress when fishing. I don't think we shouldn't be able to turn ambient bug noises off, I just think it's a choice we should be able to make for ourselves in a thorough audio slider menu

[north mesa]

Starred bugs have a tingling sort of sound with them in addition to the little sound of the bug itself. The sounds I have a hard time with are the waterfalls, they're louder than most of the ambient sound and exactly the type of sound that bothers me. I like nearly all the others - though I think we need frogs in game if they're going to be part of the pond sounds

[silk mountain]

I'm actually surprised and sad that there aren't frogs, especially since we can catch crabs, so it's not like they're solely keeping with insects.

[pastel mica]

I know Steam can pick up a PS4 controller on its own so there is a way. (it's up to the individual games themselves to show the correct buttons... Like I need a tiny patch for DMC 5 to show ps mappings in game instead of Xbox.)

[lost obsidian]

Good to know I was mainly thinking about whether or not it requires specific development, or if controller support is more generic. Either way, i'm sure they can do it if they spend enough resources on it

Also, i fully support frogs as well. I've been begging them for a green froggy bucket for as long as i've been playing, but they just won't budge

[static wolf]

I can't believe they won't let us recolor our red frog bucket back to the iconic green 😭

[green kelp]

There can be only one.

[lost obsidian]

My head canon is that it's actually an EvE Online reference

[pastel mica]

There are also some really nice third party controllers now that work with windows too
https://www.8bitdo.com/

[static wolf]

What's the odds of them mentioning accessibility in the dev notes this week?

[quartz maple]

absolute 0 chance given their track record before. ive also just blasted s6's management on twiter so if anyone wants to join in plz feel free to

[radiant sun]

-5

and if they do it'll be some excuse for why they dont have it or it will be one change and not at all address how we still dont have audio sliders, text sliders, or brightness sliders

[quartz maple]

and then we can just blast them even more on twitter n steam cause itll be really poor excuses lol

[static wolf]

Idk what I said that was wrong, let's try again. I'm (delusionally) hoping the eye emoji (maybe it didn't like that I used that?) is a hint that we're getting accessibility for vision problems

[quartz maple]

i really hope so and its not some stupid feature that just even more inaccessable for diabled people and abled people alike

[static wolf]

Hopefully it comes tomorrow and not Friday so we can know sooner

[unique crag]

tbh i fully expect the eye to be a hint for "watchers" rather than accessibility but we can hope

[quartz maple]

if its only just to announce surbia's leavance then thats a waste of a "hint" we've been knowing for weeks

[maiden pilot]

dragon, I assume lunar new year event (year of the dragon)
hut, I assume new house decor objects to exchange/farm, maybe related to ^
happy face, people happy because ^

happy face and eye combination........they talked once about introduction of competetive card game to the game..... (you have to watch what's going on and you are happy that you can now play that game)

eye best possible outcome - color blind sliders for the game - and I really hope it's that......hope dies last.....
eye addition - user can change text size but that is more work than using the existing UE feature for that ^

[eternal skiff]

Frankly I just might

[radiant sun]

No mention of accessibility at all. Again.

[cyan flame]

No direct mention, but I feel like giving them a benefit of doubt, tho.

[radiant sun]

Honestly, I highly doubt that means anything other than adding a quest or two.

[raw mirage]

the update focusing on assuring they'll add more content vs bug fixes and accessibility additions...S6 seems to prioritize a bigger game over a more polished game. i wish this quote gave me more confidence than it does

im not assuming they won't fix anything i just don't have confidence on when based on what's been teased and how the updates have gone so far

[noble kelp]

I've got zero hope if they don't mention it outright

[radiant sun]

I just genuinely don't think they care at this point, it's so blatantly obvious. They've mentioned accessibility maybe once, and never addressed our larger concerns. People always come in here to tell us "they hear you" or "we've been telling them about everything" but they just don't care.

We're not even an afterthought.

[solar willow]

I won't weigh in on the possibility of accessibility options, because I just don't have any info there. But I do want to jump in with this: I've got both FDM and resin 3d printers at my disposal. Any 3D printed part that can make Palia (or computers or Nintendo Switches in general) more accessible to this community are something that I'm always happy to help with. I know that can't help with every need, but if there's a physical part that can help anyone here, please please let me know and I'll help in any way that I can. Personally, I have Parkinson's Disease, and some other neurological issues, so motor skills are an issue for me, and sometimes things like joystick extenders or controller holders make all the difference for me. If I can help anyone else in this manner, please let me know.

[static wolf]

The last bit of the dev update is like so close to hinting that maybe they'll start to care about accessibility but doesn't ever take it there. Which makes me doubt it was their intention to hint at it and I'm just reading too much into it anyways. Sad but not surprised

[radiant sun]

It's like they think accessibility and Disabled is a bad word so they just ignore us

[marsh granite]

I put this into the Player Feedback link someone suggested but also here as they also suggested.

I'm not sure if it's my colorblindness making this hard to read or if regular color vision folks have this problem too but adding a shadow or outline to the numbers on item stacks can help read how many there are in the stack. I can't see the numbers or part of them on things like peppers, tomatoes, fertilizer, etc.

[radiant sun]

I had that issue when I played too and I'm not, to my knowledge, colourblind - the numbers blend in a lot on certain items.

[marsh granite]

Glad to hear it's not just me. I used the AMD Adrenaline to turn Protanopia Color Deficiency Correction all the way up and it helped a little (telling me the numbers and the color of the peppers are a different color) but they're still a little difficult to read

[molten swift]

Also I am pretty sure the 👁️ in the announcement from the cms the other day was in reference to the subira romance, not any sort of accessibility concerns.

[quartz maple]

im hoping a dev yoinks palia's code more and more, and ends up making a far superior game that s6 ever could

most indie studios doing work better then companies ever could

[wraith mirage]

So, I just started playing this game a couple weeks ago. I'm visually impaired but play multiple MMOs with little difficulty due to their accessibility options/mods.... I've been lurking a little and I'm wondering... have S6 addressed any specific accessibility features or accommodated any of your suggestions?
So far I love this game (aside from a couple issues like the Chat fade timeout, bug catching, font size and cooking... ha) but reading through this channel is bumming me out for the future of this game 😦

[coarse viper]

they have given no information or any indication that they are even aware of these issues which have been being told to them since closed beta.

also i am vision impaired too and have issues with all of the things you listed. it genuinely baffles me how they think such a tiny font size is acceptable and that's just on PC. i gave up on the game months ago because i cannot comfortably communicate with others in what is supposed to be social/MMO game.

[radiant sun]

they only time they addressed accessibility was to add an ability to change how fast reeling / drawing is while fishing or hunting. outside of that, which took a long while itself, they've not made any mention or concern about it

[wraith mirage]

Oof. ok that's kinda what I figured. They don't seem very transparent/active with the community from what I can tell, which sucks. I read the new dev statement and it just reads as a lot of fluff.... and a market event.
My first week of playing I submitted a suggestion/report regarding font size/chat fade and I thought it was weird there was no reply - even an automated e-mail saying they received it or whatever.

[silver warren]

I got a response about some keybinding issues that are causing issues with me moving around crafters and they said that they notified the devs about it, but that has been months and there has been nothing in the known issues about it or any sort of confirmation that it's being looked about, but then again... I tink I'm ONLY one having this issue so. 🤷

[old vector]

its also rly hard bcos i cant find Anything ab their stance on accessibility online? like i searched "accessibility palia" and i can find like 2 things from dev updates and patch notes (namely the sensitivity slider) and no general views ab accessibility (which i swear i saw in a faq but cannot find for the life of me) 😭😭😭

ok yeah its literally hidden at the bottom of one of the "ask the team" archives https://support.palia.com/hc/en-us/articles/7474545281556-Game-Design-Philosophy#how-accessible-will-the-game-be-for-people-who-are-sensitive-to-flash-or-have-hearing-problems-as-well-as-for-people-with-reading-difficulties-will-you-use-a-dyslexic-friendly-font--6

[chilly shale]

So..."We want to do it but don't expect it at launch, it will take some time."

[noble kelp]

open beta is launch though. The game is out. It's public. It's on multiple platforms. Like it's here for everyone - except for us

[old vector]

no yeah i agree like they should have at least some of it done by now

and imo that philosophy for accessibility just isnt great anyway bcos it will make it harder to have it be accessible later on

[chilly shale]

I'm reading through the stuff trying to see if that is what they consider the launch of the game of if they consider the 1.0 version drop to be the actual launch.

They basically state outright that accessibility would not be there at launch and would be added over time after it. If they count Launch as the Switch release? Not even a patch really has hit yet since to add anything. If they set it at the 1.0 release it could be quite some time before Accessibility features are really in game.

[noble kelp]

some games never leave early access x.x

[chilly shale]

And before EA was a thing those were the games that built up a ton of hype and went vaproware with noone knowing what happened, now we get a front row seat to games in their death throes as they fail.

Now looking through their archive of posts, the do seem to consider the August open beta to just be another stage of testing and not the launch of the game. The persistence of the Beta tags implies the same about the Switch release, so with the statement that the bulk of accessibility features would not be present in the game at launch it seems likely it is an issue they are aware of but have little intent to focus significant time to until the rest of the game is up and functional.

[pastel mica]

updates... surely they mean cash shop outfits

I'm salty and in hospital ATM so I'm working on back reading.

Re Stroke/Drop shadow: There is kind of one but the contrast on it is poor and it gets worse everytime they change invo text sizes.

Re launch: there has been no mention of further resets so the game is essentially launched at this point imo.

The update they gave us feels like such a nothing burger. Other than hey we haven't abandoned this yet. 😓

Also I fear for maji market prices after what they were last time around.

[chilly shale]

They explicitly said no more resets during future testing periods so people could continue to test, and spend money, without worrying about losing progress. That doesn't actually mean it is launched.

[pastel mica]

During closed beta resets they just refunded coins when they did the wipes. So you didn't loose out on what you spent at least.

My other thought on the launched caveat was the switch since it doesn't do early access really? (I can't play Palia on the switch cause everything is too small so I'm not sure how they got around that.)

[warm grove]

I personally view it as launched due to the fact that it doesn't mention it's in beta anymore on their site (as far as I could see/find), nor does it mention it's in beta on the switch (from what I've read). That and switch doesn't really allow games in beta on the eshop, as far as I'm aware.

edit: It also doesn't mention it's in beta via the Epic Games store, from what I can see, too.

Hard to view a game in beta anymore when they aren't advertising it as such anymore.

[chilly shale]

They don't do Early access, but Palia still needs to be tested on Switch, they can spend a ton on inhouse testing, or fudge things a bit and get an open beta test on the Switchm, they did the latter.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/palia-proves-gamers-longer-remember-what-open-beta-means-foulkrod I am amused there is an article explicitly about this...

I guess the real sign will be if the Steam release is Early Access or not.

[warm grove]

I mean. they aren't advertising it as in beta anymore on their own site, on epic games, nor on switch (from what i've seen). The only real place i've seen it referred to beta, is on discord. (from them, I mean.)

[chilly shale]

Still says Beta every time I start the game.

[pastel mica]

I will say a lot of things still need more testing in house before release into the live environment. Not being able to do basic things like crafting and grouping is a bit of a headscratch.

Yeah epic doesn't mention beta on the store page

(And the third screenshot has house optiond we don't even have 😦 )

https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/palia-0d428e

[warm grove]

Okay, that's great. But they aren't labeling it as such on their actual palia website, on epic games store, nor on switch when you read their description. I load up their site, and the first thing I read is, that it's "Now on Switch & PC", without a mention of a beta. If it's hidden somewhere, then that's on me but

I personally feel like that kinda should be pretty clear on their home page-- but that's more of a personal opinion, I think.

Edit: Yeah, that's why I struggle to label as such.

But even then, it doesn't excuse the fact that there's a lack of accessibility, along with some other bugs. Yes, betas and other games can have those issues, and it happens very frequently, but there's just been a lot that's just... even a bare minimum that I feel like has been left out. Which has been talked about a lot here already, haha.

[chilly shale]

Right under the title, every time it is started. As to the lack of accessibility, as I said above they were clear it wouldn't be present on launch, which we haven't had yet, and would instead be rolled out over time after that.

[pastel mica]

I hope controllers get to a better state sooner than later for Switch folks at least.

[chilly shale]

I don't think you should hope for soon. That dev blog went "We are moving to a once a month major patch release, Here is a fun new event next patch! We'll get to bugs and such the patch after." Which means content patch beginning of Feb, and the bug fixes not until March...so strong possibility we might not see any of the major bugs or issues addressed until then.

[pastel mica]

Oof. Sounding more like my break may last til March then or at least close to the end of Maji Market.

[radiant sun]

The game is soft launched. They can use the term beta all they want, but it's launched.

[chilly shale]

They use the term beta...because this game is in beta, it certainly isn't a finished product, and depending on what all they are intending it isn't close. "Hey everyone here is an open beta come try it out so we can work together to make this game something we all can enjoy." is not the launch of a game.

[warm grove]

As we have tried to also mention before, they do not show that it's in beta in the description on their own site, on epic games store, or on the switch store. In fact, in the blog post/announcement they put on their site in regards to teh switch, it only says it "is launching on nintendo switch" with no mention that it's still in beta.

I understand that you're laucnhing the game, and it says underneath it's name, "Beta", but it is still not in the description anywhere else. The only other mention of it being in beta is via their own discord.

And this is from their announcement trailer for the switch. It shows no mention of it still being in beta. It has soft launched imo based on these few things.

[static wolf]

Also I've been told (don't have a switch myself) that on the switch they removed the "beta" under palia on the launcher screen

[quartz maple]

at this point it is soft launched cause the only beta bit is on the log in screen and thats it. its soft launched, its not advertised as beta in ANY other platform or anything.

people can argue all they want but the bottom line is that s6 is lying to their customers on other platforms because of how they operate and deciding to go along with it and that palia is no longer in a true beta state because of this.

[chilly shale]

Lying about a game not being in beta doesn't suddenly make it true that it has left beta...

[old vector]

also i think if it was actually important to them they would act like it and not ignore accessibility. like, they clearly just dont care.

everything they've said abt accessibility is hidden away and they almost never say anything in the first place. we're taking everything we know from an ama hidden in the bottom of their faqs for goodness sake.

why does it matter if it's in beta or not, it's not like they're gonna care when it stops being in beta.

[chilly shale]

The point is they explicitly said they wouldn't have the accessibility features in at launch and they would be released later. If the game hasn't actually left beta and launched, then they haven't actually lied about the accessibility yet.

[quartz maple]

and the two measily ones theyve added after countless feedback and questions means they do care?

[chilly shale]

It is obviously on the back burner for them after the significant list of other things they need to have done before they can consider the game actually ready for release.

[quartz maple]

sure but when the game is completely inaccessable for some and they keep failing to add the most basic things (brightness sliders, text and UI scailing options) then its really hard to feel like they actually give a darn about any of their disabled community. if theyre going to be this slow on adding stuff they need to communicate that very clearly because rn were all a bit misled on the whole inclusivity tag

[warm grove]

Even if that is the case, it shouldn't be on the backburner lol

There are many things that's just unavailable for some, due to accessibility issues/concerns. there are some basic things that should of already been in teh game, or worked on.

[old vector]

and that's. the problem. that it's on the backburner. disabled people being treated like the last thing on anyone's list is a horrible thing to do and it's so common.

this game has said it wants to be inclusive. it's not inclusive until it's accessible

[chilly shale]

Going by the version numbers if they have tied them closely to their long term roadmap...this game isn't even a quarter of the way to release...

[radiant sun]

They actually never said that accessibility would only be at launch. They said "This involves a lot of work, though, and we definitely won’t be able to get to it all at launch."

They explicitly say they're going to roll out "bits and pieces" as they go. They've done one thing and completely ignored the most basic and asked for features.

They don't care.

Source: https://support.palia.com/hc/en-us/articles/7474545281556-Game-Design-Philosophy#can-the-game-be-played-on-adaptive-controllers-as-some-people-with-disabilities-have-difficulty-playing-games--7

[quartz maple]

it isnt but they should at least be putting in more effort for their disbabled community and abled community from how the recent temple shows. its even inaccessable for some abled bodied people. if your going to keep giving s6 the benefit of the doubt (it feels that way to me personally) then i think this convo is done cause we've seen what s6 is like

[radiant sun]

If we're gonna use the whole 'beta' excuse (a fragile excuse on its own) lets make sure they don't say actively say the opposite :o)

[warm grove]

But disabled players, or people who need these to be addressed or added (since, some people who aren't disabled would benefit from some of accessibility features, too), why should we/they be excluded or isolated? Unable to participate in some aspects of the game?

That's not okay. That isn't ""cosy"". That isn't Inclusive.

I understand that not every game can have every feature to let people play, but some basic things like brightness sliders, text/ui scaling, and I'm sure some other things I can't properly think of rn, should of already been in the game. Not to mention, the "photosensitivity warning" not showing up every-time you load up the game (only when you first create an account and load it up) ...

There's just been a few things that have been said, or unsaid, that just makes it feel like (to me, personally), they don't care about the us.

[old vector]

and we're not asking for "all" of it, we're asking for Some of it or at least it being talked about and prioritized.

[radiant sun]

literally. we've been asking for brightness sliders since they messed up brightness a while ago. It does not take this long to make a simple brightness slider - they just haven't bothered.

[quartz maple]

and its on UE5 too. i doubt they fiddled with the engine THAT much to where it ended up being so difficult to add the most basic things in an MMO. i will never understand ppl arguing about that when literally every MMO and their grandfathers have freaking BRIGHTNESS SLIDERS OFF THE BAT

[old vector]

yeah.

when i say i feel like s6 lied ab accessibility, mostly i'm saying they lied ab inclusivity-- and prioritizing inclusivity. inclusivity doesn't happen without accessibility. it's simply not possible-- you fail to include too many people by not making your game accessible.

[chilly shale]

And as much as it may suck, they might very well be prioritizing by how large a percentage of the playerbase is affected by the issue as they address these problems. Have the revealed how many people are playing Palia? We certainly can't go by the queue numbers that we see in game sometimes.

[warm grove]

I'm not sure if it's in the game now, since I honestly haven't played in a hot while, but I have also just wanted an easy toggleable function for fishing. Just press 1 button and it'll reel it out for you, etc. I had to make my own keybinding for it via macro on my mouse. I figured that would be rather simple to do, considering that's already a thing (from what I remember) when you mine/chop trees, right? so...

I also rarely bothered to read the chat in the game, because I personally thought it was too small, or just a struggle to read against the background it provided. I can just imagine how much worse it is on switch.

I honestly check here a lot, to see if there's been any improvements in regards to accessibility, because I genuinely have slowly started to struggle with some aspects of the game. And I've read about some stuff and it just seems worse or have added other issues. (vertigo with the obstacle courses for example).. and I just rarely see these things addressed. It sucks.

Edit: It doesn't matter how large a specific playerbase is. You should try to include all of it, if you're going to advertise as inclusive/accessible.

[radiant sun]

I feel like at some point there has to stop being excuses for why they've blatantly lied and ignored Disabled players. Every time an excuse is refuted the goal posts are moved - it's exhausting to constantly have to deal with people acting like we don't exist or matter.

[old vector]

almost all accessibility things that make it possible for disabled people to play the game also make the game easier and/or more enjoyable for nondisabled players.

accessibility stuff also tends to be quality of life stuff.

the stuff we're fighting for would largely benefit everyone.

(also using numbers to dismiss minorities is really really yucky but i dont have the energy to explain that rn)

[radiant sun]

This is the only channel we have to talk about accessibility without, for the the most part, being harassed or talked down on and even then it still happens constantly.

[old vector]

yeah being "what about"ed, dismissed, and condescended to in this channel... very frustrating.

if the person actually wants to learn that's one thing but this is just... man

[warm grove]

When it comes to accessibility, esp for some aspects that should be basic or already in the game-- I rarely ever give excuses, especially when there's almost no acknowledgement about it.

They shouldn't be given excuses. They don't talk about it. They don't even care. And the only way for change to happen is for us to talk about it.

"It isn't launched yet." That shouldn't even matter! Some stuff we've asked for is basic things! Some stuff that would benefit everyone, like eyore said above, too! We shouldn't have to fight for basic things.

I already fight enough with being gaslit about my disabilities, from others (and even myself). I shouldn't have to fight even more to ask for basic things in a game. It's exhausting. It's tiring and draining.

[old vector]

thats why, honestly, im glad this channel is kinda hidden away bcos i generally feel pretty safe and at ease with yall <33 like sometimes we have to fend off people but generally this community is so cool n sweet

(pls no one tell that to s6 bcos i think some of the stuff u guys have said rly, literally, should be written on the walls at s6, but i hope you know what i mean 😭)

[chilly shale]

Fine, we want to avoid moving goal posts then lets get back to the root of it. The issue brought up was if S6 addressed accessibility at all. They did in their Q&A saying it was something they wanted to have but it would not be properly in place by launch and would be rolled out over time after that. The bulk of the debate since then has been about if the game has been launched and what it means to be in beta. Beta is an incomplete game, it means it does not have all the QoL features of a finished game. It relies on testing to see when and where issues crop up and they are collected together to then be worked on. There have been only 10 patches since open beta started, these are not the major content patches of something like WoW these are dev patches as stuff is worked on and systems are implemented. We still only have 2 zones, compared to nearly any other MMO and this is barely out of Alpha. Things such as a brightness slider along with audio sliders would be great, but if they are still planning menu UI overhauls and other additions we don't know about then from a development

perspective they leave them undone and to be worked on alongside so everything can be done at once for a UI overhaul.

Bah, hit enter too soon...

[radiant sun]

The issue brought up was if S6 addressed accessibility at all. They did in their Q&A saying it was something they wanted to have but it would not be properly in place by launch and would be rolled out over time after that.

They actually didn't say that. If you read it, they say (direct quote) " This involves a lot of work, though, and we definitely won’t be able to get to it all at launch...Accessibility is always part of the conversation, but we will be rolling out bits and pieces as we go." They never mention that accessibility will be something they work on after 'launch', only that they wouldn't be able to get to it all.

[old vector]

i'm sorry but this is truly so far away from anything we've said so far at all like it's almost a nonsequitor. very unhelpful

[chilly shale]

" We expect to continually add features to support accessibility, and we expect to continually get feedback from our players on how we are doing and how we can improve in that space."

[warm grove]

I also want to lightly mention, that it says at the top, it was updated "a year ago".

Which, they haven't done much within that time-frame. Which makes me feel even more ignored by s6, personally.

[radiant sun]

In fact, they specifically say "There are other features we have planned in regards to both visual and audio difficulties (like colorblindness mode), but depending on the scope some may or may not make it in time for launch." Nothing they ever said there mentions that accessibility is something they'll be doing after launch. Literally it is never said once there, they specifically say the opposite.

Also there has been no "continually adding features to support accessibility". They've added one feature...in a year.

[quartz maple]

and that was ages ago. it doesnt hold weight with how far were in and how theyve launched on multiple platforms now. being exposed to a larger audience, theyll be more pressure put on them cause now they have more people to be sending in feedback and more.

with how theyve treated the disabled community so far? yes yes indeed we do cause theyve treated us horribly so far.

[chilly shale]

So you read that section as "We don't want to include it but we want to string people along thinking we will" ?

[old vector]

that's ... how they've acted

[radiant sun]

I'm giving you direct quotes because you're claiming that they mention accessibility is something they've stated would be added after launch, which is factually incorrect.

[warm grove]

It literally says "rolling out bits and pieces as we go", which does imply that they would want to work on it during the 'open beta' stage... which they just haven't quite done.

It definitely feels like we have been ignored. Feels like we do not matter in their view or anything similar. Especially considering that was updated a year ago ...

If they were "rolling out bits and pieces as they go", we definitely should of seen more by now within a year. At least some basic things, such as a Brightness slider, for example.

Accessibility should never be something on the backburner, but more of a priority.

[old vector]

right. for them to say "we're inclusive" and then have to be asked about accessibility for them to give plans about its implementation, and have 2 accessibility changes in a year when they said they wanted to have it be continually added, is stringing us along. like yeah thats a harsh way to look at it but ok it's true. i mean, i didn't say it first.

[chilly shale]

Are we reading the same article? The do outright say they won't have everything ready in time for launch but still plan to include those features...

[warm grove]

You seem to quite genuinely be ignoring the fact that it says "we will be rolling out bits and pieces as we go."

We are reading the same article. It just claims it wont have everything by then, but still implies they will be working on things until then.

[quartz maple]

yes and were talking about how its been going now and how thing have been doing since theyve posted that article. whats so hard to understand about that?

[radiant sun]

You literally said "the point is they explicitly said they wouldn't have the accessibility features in at launch and they would be released later." Respectfully, you're the one not reading it right or are forgetting what you were previously saying.

[warm grove]

"This involves a lot of work, though, and we definitely won’t be able to get to it all at launch."

Where it says-- "get to it all" here-- implies that they wont have everything done, however, they will have some.

We are not sitting here going, "ah yes, please.. please give us everything!!", we're genuinely asking for them to at least work on some basic features we're requesting and needing-- which would benefit everyone.

They've done two accesibility changes, as eyore stated earlier, which is honestly... really disappointing within a year. There should be more, especially for things that should of already been implemented.

[old vector]

the implication of the article was that these projects would be started before launch and maybe if they didnt get to all of it in time for launch they would finish it after launch.

which also means that it would be like. announced.

[old vector]

if u need ur memory jogged :3

[chilly shale]

Ugh, I am reading through too fast and I think I combined a post or two without noticing it was a different reply, bleh. Okay, so no issues with them saying that there will be features added after full launch, big issue with the statement that at least some of the features were supposed to come before release and so far nothing, am I back on track?

[old vector]

and, generally speaking, them saying that accessibility is important to them without acting at all like it. like there's been little said about it either-- even though it's a big inclusivity issue

[chilly shale]

Let's be honest, they say little about anything in this game.

Lack of communication is kind of an ongoing issue at all levels right now.

[radiant sun]

Exactly. They cling on to the word inclusive as a buzzword, but don't have much action behind it.

[chilly shale]

Also...only 10 updates for a game in beta...Others have nightly dev builds in beta testing branches...

[old vector]

is it illegal for us to complain about it tho? 😭 omg can u understand how infuriating ur being

[warm grove]

Yes, they are having a huge issue in regards to lack of communication. We realize that. I think a majority of people realize that.

But that isn't fully what we are discussing, but rather the fact that there has been a huge lack of accessibility, and it just continues. The fact that our hope for any is also dwindling because of this-- hard to have a lot of it when we feel pushed aside, ignored, and like we don't matter. At least, this is the case for myself.

It doesnt even matter if this is really in "beta" at this point, either. I understand the point you have been trying to make, to excuse their behaviour, in regards to saying "oh but it isnt' launched yet", but honestly... it doesn't matter? Things we've requested are pretty basic, and even QoL that would benefit everyone.

Point is, We (specifically, I), just don't feel like we matter in their eyes, just based on the fact of how they've been acting, or I guess, lack of action they've taken. Accessibility shouldn't be on the backburner-- we shouldn't be put on a backburner; it should be more towards the priority side of things.

[radiant sun]

You're right that lack of communication is an issue, but it's very clearly different when they claim that they care about accessibiility and blatantly don't.

[old vector]

im truly so sick of ppl acting like my pain and quality of life doesn't matter bcos im disabled 😭

it's like it's okay for things to be inaccessible bcos it's always been inacessible. and like bcos ive always been in pain it doesnt matter if i have more pain.

[chilly shale]

I just get a bit irritated when it seems like people are trying to hold something in development up to the standards of a finished game. I will happily rail on S6 for poor planning, lack of progress, overall bad design, poor communication skills, and misdirected priorities. But until they officially slap that 1.0 version on it and dare to call it done I don't accuse them of having forgotten to include something as that implies "left out of a finished product" instead of "haven't gotten to it yet."

[warm grove]

But we're not trying to put it up to the standards of a finished game?

We are literally asking for basic accessibility and QoL features that would help everyone...

[old vector]

🤦🏻‍♀️ i give up i'm done. that's not fair at all and incredibly infuriating. someone else can deal with you. you're irritated at the wrong person.

[silk mountain]

The issue though is the longer they take to implement things like this, the harder it will be to do so in the future, especially as they keep adding more content. And then it'll be all the easier to say "welp, too late now!"

We keep hammering the point because, let's face it, we're on a clock here, beta or no beta.

[warm grove]

And being in a "Beta" doesn't excuse them from leaving out accessibility features... it doesn't excuse them to make people feel left out, or isolated. It doesn't excuse them from making us feel like we don't matter, because of the actiosn they have or haven't taken.

It has gotten to the point where, it feels like no matter what they do, wehther it's accessibility related or not-- they can do whatever! Because hey! Guess what! They're in """Beta""". That's how you're making it sound, at this point, too.

I will say it again::

Accessibility shouldn't be on the backburner, but a priority.

Being in "beta" does not change that fact.

[quartz maple]

exactly. s6 can either stop putting it off and actually do something or start taking off the inclusivitity and accessability tag off their game, period.

[silk mountain]

Here's an analogy: it's like saying you can't ask for a wheelchair ramp because a building is under construction, when that's literally the best time to ask for it

[radiant sun]

And the fact that there are NO resets makes it even worse because we're missing out on a lot of content because they refuse to make the game accessible.

Honestly the infantilizing is annoying. We're not children, we know that game development takes time but the fact that we don't even have the most basic accessibility feature like a brightness slider which is the most requested feature and the one we've been asking for the longest; and basically every game, even ones made by single developers have, is absurd.

There's no excuse for that.

[warm grove]

Are we asking them to have everything in the game? No.

We're literally asking for some basic things so people can actually play. Asking for basic features that shouldn't even be difficult to adjust if they do end up adding future content. Basic features that, hey, guess what, would even have people probably play more of the game, becuase it'd be... you guessed it! Accessible.

[quartz maple]

seriously. this is all were trying to say and WANT to get across. we KNOW its in beta and we aren bashing that fact. we just want some dang accessability options and to be heard dam it!

[silk mountain]

Even hardcore games like souls games have a slider. No excuse not to have one for a farm sim.

[warm grove]

Even lethal company, made by a single dev, that released in Oct of 2023 ... has a brightness slider.

[radiant sun]

literally the fact that lethal has more accessibility than palia is...no words

[static wolf]

also they're in "beta" but have a functional cash shop and several limited-time events, so if they've had the ability to develop that while not adding accessibility feedback that's been given since alpha testing, for well well over a year, then the answer is not that they don't have the time or ability to add it, it's that it's not a priority for them to add it. think of all the time that went to developing the janky obstacle course only up clone- how many accessibility features could they have possibly made with that effort? the obstacle course that I don't recall seeing people ask for was given priority over basic accessibility features. (I know it might not be the same devs doing the obstacle course that would be implementing things like brightness sliders, but just as an example of them not prioritizing accessibility)

like everyone else is saying, they don't need to have everything right now, but there should be some indication that they're working on it, or care about it, or think about it. especially because their marketing was targeted so heavily toward us

[warm grove]

Not to mention, lethal is completely on board with people using mods to alter the game. I understand it's a completely different genre, and is not an ""MMO"" (which frankly, i struggle to label palia as one) ...

Whereas, palia, does not allow it whatsoever, even if it's to help with basic things... is really upsetting.

[old vector]

thisthisthisthis absolutely this

[radiant sun]

also the obstacle course that countless Disabled people mentioned was inaccessible and they, after assuring everyone that they wouldn't make it mandatory, made one of the temples an obstacle course — once again keeping Disabled players, like myself, from being unable to even engage with the already inaccessible bundle system.

[quartz maple]

that really made me so mad how they just went back on their word like that. im betting management is the one who keeps shoving us to the side. they need to be fired

[chilly shale]

Okay, this one ties in to what I was trying to say about UI above before I sent the message mid way through.

Lets say the wheelchair ramp is the brightness and sound sliders. Yes, during construction is certainly the time to build the ramp, but if you are going to build the whole entrance and steps up in a week you would delay the ramp to be built along that instead of building it when you are working on the walls in other parts.

Now at the rate they are going it feels like it will be longer then a week, but if they are planning a full UI overhaul and are just listing all the features they will include in it to be done at once then I could possible see why they are delaying implementation.

They want to do the work all at once time. If that UI overhaul will also include things like full keymapping and the other stuff they have left out that we have come to expect from modern games, I hold hope they were just getting the last things in place before dropping it all in at once.

Might be wishful thinking though.

[old vector]

can u please breakup ur walls of text.

[static wolf]

but there's not really any indication that they're planning on a UI overhaul?

[silk mountain]

That literally makes no sense. Why would you not build the ramp and the stairs at the same time? They're (typically) part of the same unit. That's why I used the analogy I did.

[radiant sun]

If every accessibility feature is something that requires them to develop something entirely different that is a huge red flag, and horrible game development.

[static wolf]

they did some UI overhaul for the switch release (changing the tool and emote wheels, which also hit an accessibility thing by keeping us from being able to quick press R for a tool)- so by that metric they should've released the brightness sliders then

[warm grove]

Another example: The Bunny Graveyard. A game that released Sep 2023, and is still in progress (because it's releasing in chapters), already had an accessibility update a month after it released, based off feedback...

And then added more this month. And they have two people on their team. They are actually a small indie company, unlike Palia.

It just boggles/baffles my mind.

And I'd add more to what everyone already said, but they pretty much already said it. They should already be adding those things now, rather than later. You should be able to adjust them fairly easily if you were to adjust the UI overhaul.

[warm jungle]

weirdly hot take: basic accessibility settings should be worked on before the game comes out of internal testing

[quartz maple]

watch them just yeet this channel at some point cause management tells them to do so bro. just watch.

[radiant sun]

The excuse is that they're in 'beta' so they can't add accessibility, next year the excuse is going to be that they can't add accessibility because there's too much in the game already. The excuses will be neverending.

Also @quartz maple considering they closed the discord-server-thoughts channel...probably.

[warm jungle]

if I've learned anything from the palia community is that people move goalposts like they'll get a zeki coin for every foot they do

[old vector]

i hope them not looking at it is enough

[warm grove]

I might not know much or anything about programming, or game development currently ... but wouldn't it be much easier to build something for accessibility now, and adjust/add to it for future content updates? So if there's more, you just have to work on it a little compared to a huge project?

That's how I view it, at least. That's why it's hard to excuse it in the sense of "It's a beta, they'll add more later" ... because, exactly. That will just add more to that workload, and increase it to a chance of them going... "Welp, too late!"

[quartz maple]

idk who the management people are, but theyre tearing this company down slowly for sure.

still holding out hope a dev or two secretly stashed palia's code for themselves and will immediently launch their own version of palia when they fly the nest or when s6 shuts down cause of garbage management.

[warm jungle]

I saw this happen with a website in development to host mods for a game once; the dev kept pushing back when he was gonna start adding proper accessibility options and someone was like no, you need to have that in the skeleton, not as the sprinkles

idk how I hopped from skeletons to sprinkles when paraphrasing that convo but I'm tired gimme a break LOL

[static wolf]

i like the skeleton and sprinkles metaphor though

[chilly shale]

In something like the fishing game being made easier, yes much easier to build early then overhaul the system, a general thing like volume control, might actually be easier later once you know all the possible sound sources in a game so you know what to include sliders for.

[warm grove]

Just imagining a candy skeleton now, and someone's just topping it off with sprinkles

[old vector]

it alliterates!! i loved it actually it's sooo cutee

[radiant sun]

It depends on the accessibility feature, but for the most part yes it is way easier to design with accessibility built in than to adjust later.

And this is also completely ignoring the fact that they have accessibility features baked into UE for developers to use.

[quartz maple]

im still wondering why they just didnt develope accessability stuff along side everything else

[chilly shale]

Lack of experience in what issues people have?

[old vector]

then hire ppl who specialize there r tons of ppl whose job it is to know what disabled people need

[radiant sun]

Accessibility consultants exist. Plenty of games use them so that's not an excuse.

[warm jungle]

There's certain accessibility adjustments that can be added in after a problem comes up, like if they don't realize something new they added is causing an issue they didn't catch in testing

However to have near nothing baked in to begin with and nothing added in afterwards after months of feedback is no bueno

[quartz maple]

yeah. they should of hired ppl like that from the get go if they wanted to make an inclusive game. theyre just trying to tick off the cozy mmo boxes and it really shows rn

[static wolf]

and they had alpha testers telling them what accessibility problems they were having, so again they've been hearing about these problems for over a year. they know what issues people have

[warm grove]

Okay, but in regards to the volume control/sound sources, don't they already... know a majority of it? I don't really see why that would need to wait, personally.

@radiant sun Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, haha. I know some stuff would be difficult, but figured some .. like, the volume control example, would be a bit easier. Or even brightness setting/slider.

And yes, accessibility consultants exist. Along with, I don't know, reading the feedback that some people have also already submitted to them, countless times over. But (some) these are things that should of been at least thought about from the get-go, imo.

[radiant sun]

The brightness slider is something they easily could have added when we first suggested it after they messed with lighting the first time. Thyey just chose not to.

[chilly shale]

It should have been added instead of them messing with brightness

[silk mountain]

Well and especially because that tech is already there. We have sliders for certain volume things, and we know the devs have the ability to adjust brightness and whatever on their end, the only thing they realistically have to do is make a UI element that allows players to have the same control

[static wolf]

yes, like presumably they took inspiration from other games- and a lot of the games they've pulled from (and in general) have certain features always baked into them. so "not knowing what problems people have" feels like a bit of a cop out because if every game has certain accessibility features, you should know you need them for your game

[warm grove]

Didn't they also hire people who used to work at Riotgames or something, too? so...

[silk mountain]

And frankly, just features in general! We keep talking about these things through an accessibility lens, but there are a plethora of reasons why those things are useful baseline

[radiant sun]

Yep. They're filled to the brim with devs from other companies, many AAA ones.

[warm grove]

Which just further makes me believe that they should already know these things, in that case. Or at least know that they should hire an accessibility consultant for this, especially if theyre going to advertise themselves as inclusive, etc.

[chilly shale]

I am half convinced that a number of the issues with this game is the devs they have were all the higher level devs from those companies that focused more on the flowcharts and high level design of the games they worked on not the grunts that companies burned through that did all the fine detail work and bug testing to make those grand ideas work...

[radiant sun]

We can certainly agree on that, especially in terms of QA testing. It's clear there's very little.

[silk mountain]

It's actually wild how much stuff makes it into the live game

[radiant sun]

I'll never get over the time they hyped up the Emberborn furniture and then when the update launched it literally wasn't even in the game yet.

[chilly shale]

It would be nice if they were a little more professional in the patch notes. No more "Highlight reel" of bug fixes, half of which still seem to be issues, give the full list so people can actually see what is improving in the game.

Also, reading over them a bit closer, I didn't realize the implications for Subira. I thought her current implementation was a test version and we would get the proper one later. Reading closer though it seems it is actually a progressing storyline where the old content is removed as time passes with the rewards available through alternate means. That would mean later players don't get the full storyline only the current one...I really hope I am misreading that because that sort of game progression bugs me in complete games, and really has no place at all in an unfinished one...

[old vector]

nope not misreading it thats what they said

[quartz maple]

says they arent gonna do FOMO content then put FOMO content

[chilly shale]

And just like that, goodbye casual enjoyment of the game, hello completionist playstyle with checklist and a timelimit.

[quick oxide]

i don't understand why they're adding new content right now when they really just need to polish/improve what they have, including adding very basic accessibility features (hello i'm new here, started palia on switch a couple weeks ago)

[chilly shale]

Only Bug fixes lead to boring patches, then players feel there is nothing new in the game, get bored and leave, numbers of active players drop they start badmouthing the game for lack of content, less new people pick it up and it fades into obscurity, death of an MMO.

But new content is exciting stuff to look forward to, it gets people to keep playing brings back people who were getting bored and makes the game look active to those that don't bother to read patch notes, makes the numbers of active players higher which looks better to potential investors and anyone wondering if the game will be active enough to be worth playing.

It is a delicate balancing act game makers have to deal with...how much before the bugs are too much...S6 does not have a good balance. 😛

[quick oxide]

i just want myself/animals/bugs to stop clipping into terrain and the crafting menus to stop jumping around or not showing materials :P

[chilly shale]

Well, downside: Going by the dev blog just released we won't see dedicated effort to bug fixing till the patch after next, which puts it at about the beginning of March with the new monthly release plan.

Upside: They feel it important enough to mention it is a dedicated bug fixing patch so hopefully that means it will be a concentrated effort at squashing some of those issues instead of making the next shiny thing to dangle in front of players.

[glad light]

late to this, but my 20/20 not colorblind artist trained vision had a hard time with the contrast too

[glad light]

also re: many discussions cuz i have many comments

it is literally illegal to not build a ramp in a building that needs one. like, accessibility has to be included in the building plans.

i study computer science. part of that is UX/human computer interaction.
yes, it takes effort to build stuff. but accessibility has to be baked in. there are so many resources about what is necessary to make a game or website accessible.
i wouldnt be surprised if the code holding up this game is made of soggy spaghetti and off brand duct tape, but i really hope that "it will take a long time to do this right because we have to start over" is not what they do. because these considerations should be built into the core design.

and if it is, that should be a priority before more systems are added that complicate things further

adding a text or brightness slider should not be too difficult, if the game was built to have modular code. because systems change.

accessibility being hard is never ever an excuse to put it on the backburner. sure, it wont be perfect, and it doesnt have to be, but things that are essentially visual filters?? those options should be built in.

[chilly shale]

Well, the point for that construction metaphor wasn't if the ramp gets built, but the best time in the construction process to do so. And it requires we agree on what part of the construction process the game is currently in.

Without knowing the early alpha version numbers we can't really tell if the 0.175 version it currently is is counting in the form of 0.1xx, 0.2xx, 0.3xx, etc. which would mean this game is potentially not even a quarter of the way through their roadmap before release and we have a very long time to go, or if it is just 175 major patches from the start and isn't connected at all to whatever predetermined roadmap they have.

[old vector]

the thing is the switch says 0.6.0 so

[chilly shale]

Oh they changed it? They had it a crazy 175.0 in the application info pane for awhile to get around the no beta rule by just dropping the leading "0."

Oh wait, that is the launcher version number? Can't even see the patch notes for the Launcher...

Just checked, they still have the Switch version in the Information page listing it as Ver. 175.02 and I will be very interested in seeing how that comes back to bite them in future versioning when the game hits a 1.0 release...

[warm jungle]

Version numbers are completely arbitrary fyi and mean nothing

they could jump from .7 to .701 to .899999 with the same amount of content changed if they feel like it

So figuring out where they are along from version numbers is pointless. the only "important" ones are full numbers

[chilly shale]

There are still rough conventions followed though.

<Major version>.<Content Patch>.<Bugfix> is fairly common.

[warm jungle]

yes but the numbers in them are arbitrary and not indicative of predictive progress

a game being in version 0.25 doesn't mean it's a quarter done

[chilly shale]

As a standalone number true, but the point is if you see the history of their versioning you can get a better idea if that was just the 25th build or if they are treating it as major milestones.

[warm jungle]

Yet once again it can't be used as "the game is [fraction] done", that's not how it works

[quartz maple]

palia's number scheming doesnt give me the impression of knowing what looks better or not tbh. the game looks really samey except for some physical differences and lighting differences. thats about it rly tho for me

[chilly shale]

As a direct percentage no of course not. But it is still insight into their expectations.

[hoary heron]

The game and UI are improved from when I first started testing ages ago, but I can't get more specific than that. Still a ways to go and lots of needed options missing at present.

As for bug fixes, although that isn't the main focus on .176, there will still be bug fixes in that patch, though I don't know which ones. .177 is just particularly focused on bug fixes.

I finally connected my switch to a TV and the screen was weirdly dark at all times of the day and hard to discern things. I think my preferred way to play at this point is on PC with a controller, though we really need the ability to re-map controller buttons within the game. I'm still terrible at bug catching and hunting on controller, but almost everything else feels better, especially fishing (though it doesn't impact RNG /sigh). Hoping they can finish stabilizing and officially roll out controller support before they hit more platforms. Maybe then we'll see more traction on addressing other sorely needed areas of accessibility.

[sand tide]

How many others can’t complete the latest temple due to disabilities? So sad that my game enjoyment is now gone as I can’t manipulate hands to jump and glide etc. I thought this game was supposed to be user friendly not aimed at reminding some of us we are disabled for some reason or another, I know I’m not the only one feeling like this and really hoping devs do listen and implement some changes instead of making us feel discriminated against, even WoW enables everyone to play if they so choose .

[radiant sun]

I can't complete any of them due to inaccessibility with the fishing skill, I've stopped playing since the Maji Market because of it.

[sand tide]

I can’t understand why they would do it, so unfair, and makes us feel vulnerable, I guess they just don’t care, I have sent so many emails and really feel like they aren’t taking my concerns seriously, I will keep fighting by emailing and lodging ticket, not only for me but for all people with a disability of any kind,

[eternal skiff]

The idea that Switch doesn't do early access is false, it does but simply does not like it included in marketing. That was the old Nintendo mentality, which doesn't exist anymore now, because the company has stopped caring about a lot of its ethics and standards since the old CEO died.

[eternal skiff]

Nintendo simply doesn't allow them to say it's beta. It's dishonest but that's on Nintendo, who have the higher ground, for once. Not on S6.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah we definitely need to keep bothering them about it in public because this isn't normal.

[pastel mica]

The sky effects in the new temple made me a bit motion sick and that's not something I normally get from Palia. (The tower has similar effects but I only ever tried it once.)

[eternal skiff]

Is it the sky temple? There's a lot of messy stuff there

Frankly I'm not a fan of it cus it's really not accessible. It's very obvious the studio's lead does not care about accessibility

[pastel mica]

Yeah I was able to get through doing a little at a time.

[silk mountain]

Yeah I almost never have vertigo type issues with games, but the Temple of Gales made me super queasy with the weird skybox effect.

[cyan flame]

Has anyone tried to go back inside the temple of waves? It's been a while since the lighting in there is trying real hard to hurt one's retinas with that fluo cyan tint.

[uneven yew]

I haven’t been in the temple of waves, but usually nightlight settings on computers can help with blue tinted lights, I always have it on because of sensory issues, so I would try that because they don’t seem to be listening to this channel

[hoary heron]

I managed to complete the quests but it took two sessions because certain visuals and movement triggered utterly horrible migraines with lots of nausea, and I had to use a guide in the second session on some of the the items to locate because they're often very small, don't have any kind of visual or auditory effect to distinguish them from set dressing, straight-up camouflages naturally with its surroundings, or you have to get your camera at a particular angle before you can interact with the dang thing. I haven't even attempted the bundles for it yet.

You brought up challenges with manipulating hands to jump and glide--if I may ask, what methods are you using to move around in the game right now? Are you on PC or Switch?

[warm jungle]

Do you have a source on Nintendo telling S6 and other companies to take beta out of their marketing, including the company's personal website and other platforms?

[polar grove]

Source: Reddit

[warm jungle]

Idk if joke or someone posted proof there lmao

[polar grove]

joke

[warm jungle]

Lmao kk

[sacred dirge]

I'm pretty sure the sites that have that information are under NDA

[old vector]

yeah which makes it impossible to know if it's true 😭

[silk mountain]

I was under the impression Nintendo didn't allow for EA or betas in their store either, but then I found this, so I don't know what to believe lol

https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/trials-rising-open-beta-switch/

[radiant sun]

They do allow EA and Betas, they're just extremely picky

[cyan flame]

Honestly, I haven't considered trying that. I'll keep it in mind, next time I'll be in that temple.

[fathom charm]

For what it’s worth there’s a proper way to do a beta on switch. Almost the same as any other beta really, sign up via the games website and receive a code that you input on the eshop that lets you access the game. The option was there, numerous games have done it s6 for whatever reason didn’t.

Now this is random but I haven’t played the game in weeks but a friend that can’t do the air temple bc of her own disability asked me to do it for her but I wasn’t able to do the tower bc of how it made me motion sick and seeing that they have similar mechs wandering if anybody here has tried so I can gauge how sick it might make me?

[static wolf]

it has made a lot of people very motion sick, particularly if you have vertigo (there's this weird moving airbox thing and there's no ground below you when you glide from island to island)

[fathom charm]

Dang that sounds like I won’t be able to help her either :/ ty I appreciate the info!

[warm jungle]

The airbox thing is what really gets me ugh

[sand tide]

I use my keyboard on my pc, same as I do for all games I play, without issues I may add

[hoary heron]

Ah okay--do any of the other games you play have similar mechanics of jump/glide that are easier?

If so--what's the difference in how those controls work in the other game vs. Palia?

If not--what's the part of the action causing the issue; is it reaching the spacebar, not being able to tap it/double-tap it, holding it down...?

(Not at all trying to invalidate your experience--just trying to understand your current situation better because even folks with the same disabilities can have different experiences, or the same limitation manifest in different ways ❤️ )

[quartz maple]

man trying to explain stuff to new people who just dont get it is so exhausting... i need a copy paste of this stuff or something i can link to explain stuff for me without needing to use my energy

[hoary heron]

Which things? Like, what accessibility is and why it matters? Or more specifics about your own experiences?

[quartz maple]

accessability and how palia is not as great as someone thinks or trying to tell them about the mountains of bugs

[hoary heron]

Ah--hmm, there might be something in the letter Marcy created, or I can try to draft something if you like?

(And even if you'd be up for that, there's no obligation to use it--but if it can perhaps save you some spoons, I'd be down to try)

[chilly shale]

Hmm...trying to find if anyone did a glitch montage and such for Palia on youtube to showcase the issues...but so hard to search for game bugs in a game with bug catching. 😛

[chilly shale]

Couldn't find a good bug showcase, but did find one explaining how things have actually gotten worse with patches instead of better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsmtyC43zIM

[sand tide]

All other games I play have addressed accessibility issues right from the start, I can’t jump glide at same time as it’s impossible with nerve and joint damage , trying to get both actions in sync is impossible and there is no way to work around it, why would someone think introducing a temple based on the obstacle course is a good move? Obstacle course wasn’t necessary for game continuation, temple is , the whole concept of accessibility for any one with a disability or handicap of any kind is non existent, it’s actually total discrimination

[unique crag]

One thing I keep thinking about is that accessible game design doesn't just mean "add accessibility features in the options" too - a lot of it also comes down to actual base gameplay design

Like for example... Palia currently requires you to take part in all of the existing systems to progress - be it mining enough to get palium, fishing for temples and shrine bundles, higher difficulty cooking for the story quests, etc
The game is currently designed around the idea that players will and should be doing every skill - which in and of itself isn't fully accessible
Keeping things in mind like "some of these systems aren't accessible to some of the players" means that devs can adjust things early - be it to add alternate item sources, or to add alternate ways to complete questlines

For example, what if the Watcher NPC unlock quests had various requirement options, and you chose which to do - so you could opt into "I'd prefer to craft furniture/cook/catch rare fish/forage" or the like, rather than being forced to do skills you might struggle with. Or even things like... so, for example, Final Fantasy XIV has a seasonal event with a parkour platforming challenge. One year some minor progression in that was required for the event questline - but the game also had an NPC you could talk to who would teleport you through if you weren't able to do the platforming yourself, keeping it accessible for all players. Palia's temples could have a similar option, for those who struggle with platforming

This is just like, quick examples, but this sort of base design thing is something that's really important to consider for accessibility purposes as well. If the devs want to make an inclusive and accessible game, accessibility of mechanics and features should also be considered when laying the foundations and building quests. Not everything can just have a slider added later. (Not that adding sliders is always a trivial thing either, as others have already mentioned.)

That is a way longer message than I intended to write whoops But hopefully it makes sense. Like... IDK, it's all good and well to say "oh we'll just add accessibilty stuff later in development" but accessibility isn't a thing you just run through afterwards and add in, it's an on-going part of game design.
(Also this isn't aimed at anyone in particular - just that I was thinking about it after all the discussion on adding accessibility now vs "after beta")

[ember umbra]

Yea there is a lot for acesability not considered by Palia…
The fact that I Can hardly capture commen blue butterfly do to the Way my hand act.
So I cant really get bugs.
Several things could help with this, let us request things we havnt cought, make some settings that Can help with aim (lock, bigger hit box, auto) even let us set gift type we like and the npc some time random gift things to you (not just after quest and friendship level.

Also memory isuses Why isnt the bundels set up as a mission

[ember umbra]

Setting Own Keys schould be base thing for games to do… it dont nearly cover all but is sure help

[ember umbra]

The Why do you need it snd just use this lure/soecial weapon…. That becous I cant get the base of skill Running I dont have aces to…
And why do people Think that its ok to wana know what is Basicly medical info is ok, when asking for acesability ?
I hope Palia listne and make it so more Can truly enjoy it

[ember umbra]

I almost didnt made it my hand hurt so bad and I was in tears… a thing like this need some help, a work around SOMTHING … the tempels is Road Blocks if you Got acesability need

[hoary heron]

I hear you, and I don't disagree--all aspects of a game should be approached through the lens of accessibility from the start, and it definitely seems that their understanding of accessibility was rather limited (auditory cues on forageables and crops, along with the visual glow-cue) at the start and it's taking them a long time to do better. Using a controller has helped with my mobility issues in my hands to some extent, but our present inability to re-map buttons on the controller is a problem, and on PC it still gets a little fritzy if you accidentally bump your mouse. I don't know if a controller would help with your situation, and I get that you shouldn't have to use a controller.

The Obstacle Course was added as a challenge thing for folks who wanted to do hardcore platforming and they made a good choice in not making it mandatory. Some of the aspects of Temple of Gales was better/more manageable than the Obstacle Course but you're right--it's riddled with inaccessible content and that's a big problem doing that on main-story progression:

• Jump/Glide Dependency - Mobility, Motion Sickness
• Lack of Map or Minimap - Cognitive Memory/Information Processes, Spatial Awareness, Disorienting for various reasons
• Vague Quest Prompts & No Way to Revisit Dialogue - Cognitive Memory/Information Processes, Confusing and overwhelming
• That Weird Vapor Trails Effect - Motion Sickness, Migraine Trigger, Disorienting
• Quest Item Issues (there are a lot) - They don't sparkle, they don't make sound, there are no area indicators for where you might find them (also because there's no map to put those indicators on), most of them are small and colored to blend in very well with their surroundings, or are simply mistaken for decoration (particularly most of the Zeki items) and even when not, the ability to interact with them is buggy. That one hits Vision Impairments, Deaf/HoH, neurodivergent processing of visual and auditory stimuli, cognitive memory (because you have to try to remember what was in the document that you can't take with you, which documents you've actually interacted with/found already, etc.), and as a result of the above it also adds more strain on mobility and motion sickness because you have to run around and retrace your steps a lot more than you should have to, and all the frustration from that makes it harder to play at our best.

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head--I tried to call it out when I was streaming the content whenever I encountered something that was inaccessible to me, or that I recognized as inaccessible to others, and still probably missed some.

[hoary heron]

YES! The XIV Moonfire Faire obstacle course event is one of my FAVORITE examples of accessibility done right--You had the classic jump challenge for the hardcore folks, the alternate route where instead of doing a lot of jumping you could just dodge the telegraphed, falling bombs, and that beautiful third option of the "teleport to the end" except they didn't frame it as a cop-out (as many gamers have and do /sigh), it was instead the most kick-butt of options: Story-wise you were the MOST hardcore because you were doing the course with your eyes closed. The screen went dark, they gave some color-commentary on how awesome your trip across the course was, then the image faded back in as you "opened your eyes" at the end of the course.

[quartz maple]

That's so sweet??? I never heard that before

[hoary heron]

Oh yeah!! We were over the moon about it. It was so much fun--and the first time my whole family was able to complete an event like that without stress--and even for those able to do the hardest course, the other options were fun too so virtually everyone was eating good that event. Now, XIV does still have a bunch of places where things are less accessible, especially certain boss-fights in higher-end content where certain prompts are color-based, but that particular event was just wonderful.

[quartz maple]

I hope palia adds something like that Tbh. Itd be so nice

[silk mountain]

I think there's still an underlying feeling with a lot of people that accessibility like in FFXIV somehow makes their accomplishments mean less, and that just isn't the case, especially in a game like Palia where there's no "winning." People getting ways to access the content that would make it trivial for an able-bodied person doesn't detract from the accomplishment of the able-bodied person. It just means more people get to play the game, and I really don't understand why that's an issue for some people.

[polar grove]

It's pretty typical. A lot of players are like that, yeah. They want to do the hard thing that other people can't do, and giving other people an easier path to the same reward is unfair to them, they want everyone forced to compete at their "level" (it would be their word for it, I've heard it a lot of times) or it devalues the accomplishment. Game developers for the most part have the same issue. Effort / Skill to make a reward feel like more of an accomplishment.

That surge of dopamine for doing the hard thing is what keeps a lot of people logging in. I can't raid in FF. Savage content or whatever. I have Neuropathy in my hands so... those fights are so very unforgiving and most players are very harsh. So, I quit.

[hoary heron]

I used to get so stressed out healing raids in WoW that it would literally reduce bloodflow to my brain and cause me to pass out. I found XIV to generally be more forgiving, but I don't do Savage content--the hardcore raiders are not my scene (waves cheerfully from my family of sprouts, obsessing over the lore and story, and building/running a museum in-game). Most of the older raids I squeaked through with family/friends, unsynced (so regardless of the actual content level, I'm running it on my max level job with top tier crafted gear, for anyone not familiar with the system), just so I can get the story. Outside of the hardcore/savage raiding scene, players are generally more forgiving, though it's still my preference to pull together a pre-formed group to guarantee friendliness and patience in my fellow party members because there are sometimes dumpsterfire humans even at normal levels and roulettes.

[polar grove]

Savage IMO is harder than mythic. But there just aren't as many fights, so it's really VERY different. But mechanic-wise a lot of fights in Savage have a number of instant kill mechanics (being knocked off the edge of the level) and every time you get hit by a mechanic you gain a stacking damage taken increase, so like 3-4 of those and you're just going to die anyways. Which just pretty much means its more forgiving than WoW because as long as you don't die your healer can get you back to full health and there are no consequences (other than a mad healer)

In Palia mostly the issue I have is with jumping stuff. Hunting can be a pain when my hand twitches or jerks before a shot or something I spasm and shoot more than once and waste arrows but I really don't let that bother me too much.

[hoary heron]

Oh I quit WoW before Mythic was much of a thing and I never tried that--I meant their normal raids. I can usually read mechanics easier in XIV, healing makes more sense and seems more effective in XIV, and I don't usually have as many people yelling in my ear during an XIV raid with the smaller team size. But yeah, Savage raids get WILD--I've only completed one Savage fight and it was two (almost three now) expacs ago, unsynched, and it still took us hours to win through and get our giant danger-noodle mounts. I watched some runs of TOP and my goodness those statics sound like they're speaking a completely different language.

OMG yes the hand-twitches in Palia get me too. More often than not, it hits me when I'm gliding and I accidentally hit my spacebar too many times so instead of holding my glide I suddenly put away my glider and drop like a rock T_T

[polar grove]

The thing that really sucks is I just love shooting games on computer. I love lining up those perfect headshots in game and... I really can't do it anymore. Feeling like your body is taking away the things you enjoy @#%$ sucks and I know most people that post in here probably feel somewhat the same way.

[hoary heron]

I feel that--it's so frustrating experiencing that degeneration and knowing you COULD do it before, and you feel like you SHOULD be able to do it now, and body just nopes out. And then there's also the dynamically disabled aspects--some days I can do the thing. Which feeds the belief that I should always be able to do the thing, and triggers self-doubt and self-gaslighting...unpacking and getting past internalized ableism is a bear.

[polar grove]

Yeah, I can definitely get that. Internalized ableism sucks especially coming from a very strict religious family that thinks the cure for depression is some fresh air.

Thankfully most console games have auto aim so I can still enjoy shooting games to some degree, but not the same way.

[hoary heron]

After getting my diagnosis, I went three years without allowing myself to even try using mobility assistance tools. I didn't think I was "disabled enough" 🙃 . I finally caved and tried one when on a trip with family and broke down crying over how much of a positive difference it made.

[polar grove]

It's true, it really does help. I have an FSA card, which is like a whole program where you get a bunch of money on a card you can only use for medical stuff. Not trying to mansplain, just context. Anyways, once I got that, I was able to freely and guilt free shop for things that help me. I got these vibrating gloves that also heat and whatnot and... just changed my life.

[hoary heron]

Totally fair--not mansplaining, especially since we have folks from outside the USA in here and they may not know what an FSA (Flex-Spending Account) is.

Wait the gloves do heat AND vibration?? 👀 Mine just do compression--I don't suppose you have a name or brand or something for them that I can search up?

[polar grove]

Let me see

Hopefully posting a link here is okay. I mean, I can't see what kind of link would be more appropriate for an accessibility discussion thread lol

https://fsastore.com/intellinetix-vibrating-arthritis-gloves-large/25790.html

Gosh that post timer is vicous lol I keep forgetting about it. These are the specific ones I use. Bad news - they broke afte a month. I do not know if that's normal for this brand. I am working on getting a replacement sent to me.

[hoary heron]

Thanks! Hopefully your replacement pair has better longevity, they sound lovely!

[polar grove]

Me too, because these things are like... literally magic.

[radiant silo]

I used to think I wasn't disabled enough to warrant using an elevator/lift so I would just drag my heavy suitcases up and down the stairs at train stations.
I have had part of my spine fused; I can and should use the elevator/lift. A lot of anxiety and trepidation around travelling has gone away since I let myself, y'know, not use stairs

[polar grove]

For me, it's mostly because people look at you with that look. Pretty sure we all know it. It doesn't matter, it can be parking in a handicap spot (or if it's even called that anymore, I am not sure), using an elevator, needing a chair at work if you do retail, etc.

[radiant silo]

Yeah, its frustrating, cause I present as an able bodied woman, albeit a slim/not strong one.

[static wolf]

Yeah, my friend with pots visited a few weekends ago, so we took the elevator a lot at the public transit station, and there were so many people who gave us (we're both pretty young) looks for it. People seriously need to learn about "invisible" disabilities

[polar grove]

I remember reading about this poor young woman who had her heart outside her rib cage so she had a placard and some older lady like attacked her because she thought she was lying about her disability. Like legit screaming and arm flailing

[radiant silo]

I'm arguably happy I'm not in the US but in the Netherlands, where at most I'd have to contend with side eyeing

[hoary heron]

YUP. People get judge-y as all getout because they don't understand the concept of invisible/non-apparent and dynamic disabilities, nor do they understand that these things affect people of ALL ages, not just the elderly.

[slender mulch]

I was reading some of the posts and I though having an auto-target lock on could be helpful for a lot of people.

Also a bug catching net could be nice instead of the bombs...maybe give people an option to pick their preference for that slot on the tool wheel.

[polar grove]

The Switch does have auto target. I started on Computer but now I mostly play on that.

[slender mulch]

So you can use that to help catch bugs? Do you know how to get it working? I don't recall seeing anything like that but maybe I was not reading something right with the few options we do have on palia for settings.

[polar grove]

Oh sorry no, no

Shakes angry fist at post timer Why do you do this to me?! Anyways, no but there is auto target for hunting. The arrows track the closest target. Catching bugs is still 🍑

[slender mulch]

Ok. Bummer I got excited there for a minute.

Also, now I'm questioning my deer and chappa hunting skills now

[polar grove]

Oh! Yeah it doesn't work that way on PC, unfortunately. When you shoot on PC the arrow flies straight and has a little bit of drop. On Switch it has the same drop, but the arrows will at last hone in on whatever you were aiming at, but it still takes skill because you have to be pretty much right on target to still hit. It just compensates for the slower movement of that using the joycon controllers produces.

Sadly target assistance on PC games is a hotly debated topic.

[slender mulch]

I can feel better about my hunting prowess.

But I didn't know they were using some aim assist for hunting. They definitely should add that to help with bug hunting, though.

[pastel mica]

Yeah... I've had to learn not to feel ashamed for using the aids I need for things. My body is definitely paying me back for being so tough with it.

[polar grove]

That's good, because it can take a long time to get there.

[pastel mica]

Yeah it definitely can. Me being stubborn hadn't helped for sure.

[chilly shale]

I believe the core issue is how we look at games. Traditionally (well before computers) games trained a skill, you play them to get better at something or to stay in practice with it. The better you are at the skill, the better you are at the game. Learning without knowing you are learning. They taught accuracy, athleticism, tracking, evasion, endurance, and many other skills that at the time were the skills that helped you as an adult. Even things like playing with dolls or toy tools and such were practicing the behaviors seen in adults to build up habits and awareness of the responsibilities of adulthood.

As time moves on the games grew to encompass the skills needed in an evolving society, memory games, logic puzzles, strategy, and the like gain focus as expectations in what would be required as an adult changed.

Then we get to computers and more modern gaming. Still a fair number of skills to train in but games weren't the only thing to make the jump, stories did as well. Instead of sitting around the fire or a radio to listen, pulling out a book to read, or watching on a TV or stage, computers and videogames opened up the possibility of immersing yourself into the story far beyond what the choose your own path books that were popular for a bit ever could. You can be right there in the action to experience the horrors, tragedies, and triumphs as close to first hand as you can get without actually putting people at risk.

And we lumped them together with games.

The problem is at the heart of it there remains a fundamental difference between the two. A story is meant to be shared, spread far and wide for all to hear. It is meant to be accessible and the immersion from the medium of a digital experience should not get in the way of that. But a game, going by the traditional stance, is meant to challenge. Beating the game is therefore proof of skill, like a certification or degree it is a sign of ability and competence in the connected skills.

By not recognizing the difference and letting them be lumped together we are left with situations where two players will be playing for two very different reasons. The one there for a story will be frustrated at any point where the gameplay loop hinders their progress in the story, while the unskippable cutscenes, long winded quest text, and constant side quests stop the other from being able to just play the game.

Make the game too hard and people can't see the ending to the story they are enjoying, make the game too easy and it doesn't offer any challenge or sense of accomplishment. In trying to find that balance the distinction between the two needs to be made. Is it a game meant to challenge, or is it a story to be experienced.

Some games make it clear that the point is the storyline, and for others the arcade action they offer. MMOs are often the worst though because an MMO isn't "a" game, it is many. In the goal of gaining as many payers as possible MMOs are designed to target a wide audience, and often do so by including as many types of gameplay as they can.

To use WoW as an example, you have raiding, mythic dungeons, pet battles, transmog farming, PvP Battlegrounds, and the auction house as just some of the different playstyles available and the actual story woven between them. An individual player can dabble in one of those gameplay loops, or all of them. Anytime Blizzard tries to encourage people to branch out by placing rewards for one of their gameplay styles locked behind progress in another they deal with the negative comments from those unwilling or unable to do that content. They are there to play a particular game, or experience a particular story and having to do something else to continue it is an unwelcome interruption.

Palia as it is now is a good example of the mess it can become. A variety of gameplay loops, and each of them required to be used just to get the full story out. In trying to have it all, they are falling short. If the story is the point of it, and the challenges a fun distraction, then they need to unlink it and let us experience it without having to jump through the hoops of the temples and skills. If the gameplay is the point...then as others have said they need to stop claiming this is a relaxing cozy game.

[polar grove]

I guess.. and I hope I don't get a lot of hate for this... but does every game need to be accessible for all people? If not, does that mean it falls short? Personally, I am usually like ugh this game is not going to work for me, so I just find a new one. For an example, I would LOVE to be good enough to play Dark Souls. I am not, my hands are awful there's no way I could do those timed dodges perfectly, but I love the setting, the story, the combat (in theory) and all that, but I don't think I would personally want them to lower the difficulty or reaction times because... that's just what the game is. It's supposed to be hard AF, and whatever, if that's how the devs want to make it I don't have to buy it. Well souls like games anyways, but hopefully you get my point.

It sucks because it's not REALLY my fault that I can't play those games and I want to. But the only way I could is if they changed it to make it more accessible for me, but if they did... it wouldn't be the same game at all.

[unique crag]

Agree with this but especially that last paragraph (oh a message showed up mid typing - this is at necrovores post)

And like... at the end of the day, if they want the focus to be on the actual gameplay and skills then they can do that - it's their game! But if thats the case then it feels unfair that it is advertised as a chill cozy inclusive game if that isn't the intent. ("Low stakes" and "slice of life" might be more apt descriptors? But that's a tangent.)

IIRC the original pitch was that you could just focus on the things you liked? But the current game very much doesn't match that.

[polar grove]

Mostly I play the games I can, and I'll watch people play the games I can't.

[unique crag]

IMO it's impossible for every game to be accessible to every person - competing accessibility demands are a thing and all, too! But advertising a game as inclusive but putting minimal effort into making it inclusive with even basic accessibility features can come off as disingenuous at best

[chilly shale]

I think that is another byproduct of the confusion between games and stories now. A story you hide the later content to maintain suspense, a game you can explain fully upfront because there shouldn't be suspense about how the game is played. Too many devs feel the need to hide the mechanics to make it something to look forward to instead of being upfront so we can know going in, "Is this the sort of game I want to play."

[polar grove]

I can see that. I didn't do a lot of research on Palia to be fair. Obviously, I personally need games that work for my disability and one of the things that drew me to the game was a low risk no combat style. I love combat, but too much and my hands get real tired. I think maybe they underestimated what would be required to really make the game inclusive other than a beep here, an exclamation mark there, a few triggered sounds (there are a lot of people with issues with overstimulation and can't even play with sounds).

I think it's better than a lot of games I played, but I could see that it could still do better.

I don't know if there's like, some kind of business of people that research different issues people might have to help, uh, advocate? Advise? for gaming companies and how to be truly inclusive for accessibility issues rather than like a few people just doing their best for people who probably don't even know what it's like.

If you're part of the original Nintendo generation, you're probably starting to wind down and begin getting those genetic issues like eye problems, arthritis, etc. We're still gaming, you better believe it. We just have to take back pain breaks.

[pastel mica]

And "cozy" games in general are also considered to be lower stakes in terms of a challenge. Granted some come with options to toggle difficulty (through the game itself or mods by users.)

[unique crag]

Oh, consultants for accessibility/diversity/sensitivity readers/etc are definitely a thing! Big game studios should definitely be hiring specialists in this sort of thing these days

[unique crag]

A lot of "cozy" games these days I play tend to have "story mode" toggles too, that make gameplay basically not required for people who want to experience the story without gameplay
Sometimes it's as simple as letting players skip things like battles in an RPG
(off top of head I remember the game Chicory had some good settings like that)

[polar grove]

The sad thing is if a lot of companies DO hire consultants like that, they would lose a lot of revenue. It's stupid, but if word got out that a game hired a diversity consultant that @#$ would hit reddit so fast and there would be an asmongold youtube video with 400,000 views within two days.

[unique crag]

Admittedly I feel like if a cozy game developer prioritised "not offending ableists online" over "make sure game is inclusive of disabled folks"... I'm not sure I'd want to play their game if I knew that!

[chilly shale]

See, the solution there is creative job titles. Interface Design Specialist or Dynamic Controller Support Specialist.

[polar grove]

I wouldn't either. But we don't make up the majority of sweaty gamers. I think its a lot more balanced than it was 20 years ago, mind you. But it's also, at the same time, a lot more toxic. I remember playing MMO's in like 1999 and people worked together and helped each other and were friendly, hang out, spend time together etc.

It's not really like that anymore. It's all "HAHA HE SAID THE GAMER WORD" and whatnot in most games. I know Palia is Niche, just more complaining about games in general.

[chilly shale]

Some are still friendly...EVE is a PvP slaughterfest with some of the most helpful people you can find.

[unique crag]

TBF i think that's not necessarily a thing that doesn't exist currently either wrt MMOs having chill friendly spaces
They are big... well, the M stands for massive for a reason! But like, a huge crowd will always have loud jerks alongside the nice chill folks. I've been playing FFXIV a lot lately and for every jerk I've played with I've also played with hundreds of friendly/chill/excited/generous folks too

[polar grove]

I read about Eve, it doesn't scare me because of the players lol. It just looks way complicated. Like everyone I have met in Palia is super friendly. It's why I still play. I have a hard time without dungeons or more like group content but the fact that I can just run up to someone and we say hi, emote, chill and be friends.

Final Fantasy is so ... it's a lot different. Final Fantasy is an MMORPG, yes, but somewhere it is also this social game like... I don't know, IMVU or any of those things. You got your Savage raids, your farmers, your dungeon delvers etc, and then there is this whole community that are roleplayers, Gpose users, club goers, etc.

I feel like that is a really unique and interesting part of FF14

[pastel mica]

Also Asmongold can rake in his ad revenue all he wants. (I've had him blocked and muted everywhere since my WoW days since I've always found him obnoxious.)

I'd just rather have a game that is what it advertised to be.

[chilly shale]

That is why I said MMOs weren't just "a" game. They really are a social platform with multiple games contained within.

[polar grove]

Agreed 100% but the truth is they got little finance people whispering in their ear, numbers they crunch etc and teams for following social media. If they promise a bunch of stuff and suddenly those promises start hitting the bottom line, things change. Like New World.

[unique crag]

Oh to be clear, I also did Savage raid stuff too - my group for that were all very chill and accepting of physical ability issues! Even high end content can have chill folks too. I had to stop recently for health reasons (chill people does not make the content itself easier alas) but! It's interesting in general how like... I was scared to try it at first bc of reputation but turns out that the loudest voices are also not the common experience. (This is a big tangent tho haha)

[polar grove]

You are 100% right about that, the loudest tend to be the minority, it's usually the case. But one of them in a group of good people can still make it a miserable experience, and nice people tend to suck at conflict resolution lol

[unique crag]

Anyway - there's no way to know which direction S6 will go in but I do hope they try to prioritise playerbase over financials 😔 It's such a shame whenever I see "inclusive" "cozy" game studios that turn out to be just using those as SEO Buzzwords™️ instead of committing to them

[pastel mica]

The multiple sets of cash shop outfits every patch continue to make me. 😓

Like if you were to buy out the whole thing the cost is bananas already.

[polar grove]

The big hope I have for Palia is actually because it's not combat. The usual gamers looking for new game fix will mostly get bored, where a lot of us - the casual players who just love logging in and completing a few goals or decorating or whatever, will be the only hope to keep the game afloat.

[pastel mica]

I just enjoy doing the story, decorating my little house and chilling.

[polar grove]

They would probably make a ton of money adding a few other ideas for cash shop items - custom tools, pets you can leave walking around your property, different kinds of mounts (if that's even where they want to go).

[chilly shale]

Please don't give them ideas, I would want that ingame not cash shop.

[hoary heron]

Accessibility Consultants are a paid resource and should be involved from the get-go, but that sadly isn't the industry standard yet. One of the reasons I still buy the occasional outfit or bundle from the premium shop is in hopes that, even if they missed the boat on having one back then, the money I put into the game can help bring a consultant on to build and implement accessibility correctly.

[pastel mica]

Theyve basically said no more free outfits. And "pets" seems to be on hold after the mess with the cats.

[polar grove]

If you want consistent updates they need ways to make money. Outfits are good, but (IMO, again, just my opinion) I thin most people would buy a few outfits they really like and that's it.

[pastel mica]

They would probably sell more outfits if they were on the cheaper end imo. Easier to get small purchase than big ones.

[polar grove]

100% agree, I don't have access to their finances obviously BUT I am willing to bet their cash shop is mostly a bust

[pastel mica]

I know last time I was logged in I saw mostly the same few cash outfits over and over. It's been few weeks for me now though.

[unique crag]

Yeah - expensive prices has definitely put me off buying some cosmetics. (And I've definitely bought similar in other games - these ones are just really hard to justify spending this much on one clothing set 😔 )

[chilly shale]

I find the prices far too high for the limited color palette they offer for each piece, but the real deal breaker for me...they just don't look good on my char or something I would go around wearing. If they ever give us extra characters on the account I could see making one or two just because they would look good in one of the shop outfits.

[polar grove]

I like the bard outfit (the only one I bought) with the Twitch purple cat glasses. Purple outfit, too.

[pastel mica]

For testing reasons I can understand no alts on the same account. But it would be nice to have the option eventually. (I just like playing completely different characters sometimes.)

[chilly shale]

Mixing and matching is a whole other thing, if they must bundle the pieces together, at least let us try them out in the customization window in the wardrobes and such so we could mix and match there to decide if the pants from one go with the shirt of the other to justify the cost of buying both full sets.

[pastel mica]

Yeaaaah. Just put in a 'hey you need to buy these to wear them' prompt in

[chilly shale]

For testing reasons it is actually even more important to have multiple chars. The ability when hitting a bug to hop on an alt and immediately try the same thing paying attention to how it happened would be amazing in bug reports. And honestly if they gave them with shared inventory but separate quest and accomplishment tracking then half of the game breaking issues some are facing could be worked around while waiting for a patch. After all with the air temple if you cooked a fish you could just do it on the alt, and send the fish they caught back to the main character to replace the lost one. Or to be able to avoid the Zeki Glitch they may have hit on their main to still be able to see what comes after while they wait for the fix.

[pastel mica]

For testing certain bugs before they were asking folks to make whole alt accounts just to see if it was a bug caused by older characters or not.

At least we could claim ref rewards for those lol

[chilly shale]

See...if my only option for multiple chars is separate accounts, I certainly won't be spending money on the cashshop when I wouldn't be able to use it on every char.

[pastel mica]

Yeah. I purely made other accounts for different romances and dialogue choices. I know I could just switch pins but my characters all have vastly different personas and interests.

[polar grove]

Do you RP?

[pastel mica]

I do in other games yeah. Palia I've just been writing stuff for myself.

[radiant sun]

Scrolling through the chat a bit and saw someone say that companies would lose money if they hired accessibility consultants. One of the biggest and oldest modern video games in the world, Call of Duty, actually has a dedicated accessibility consultant who worked on other popular games like The Last Of Us 2 and Horizon Forbidden West (among other games).

It's not that companies would lose business if they hired accessibility consultants and that's why they don't do it, it's because generally they don't really care. Accessibility in gaming is essential and even if people don't care about us Disabled gamers, accessibility is always important for everyone. It's just generally better game design to have it.

[warm jungle]

Almost all game awards I've seen, including TGA (the biggest), even have an Accessibility category that have big games in the list. Gamers (tm) are more concerned with a woman with peach fuzz than a brightness slider

[radiant sun]

also the accessibility consultant I'm talking about is Steve Saylor. He does accessibility reviews on his Youtube channel if you're ever looking at a game and wondering how accessible it is

[mossy bluff]

I know that name and I generally don't pay much attention to industry names

[warm jungle]

Game difficulty settings for Soulsbornes aside (cause boy that's a mess), I haven't really seen any Gamer rage at accessibility settings, it's almost always about gender/sexuality/race diversity

[mossy bluff]

the solution? sliders for everything.

• can't complain about brown skin if you can have every shade of green, blue, and purple due to that being just how the character creation works.
• brightness slider hello??
• color sliders for... every ui element? pretty sure ue5 can do that if the devs want it to.

[radiant sun]

As for the question before of if all games need to be accessible, I think there are very few times in which a game can justifiably be inaccessible in some way. A game where you're playing as a deaf character for example, it would make sense to not have subtitles for characters that are speaking aloud.

Souls Like games are in a gray area because they're designed to be challenging for everyone so it makes sense for some parts of it to not be accessible, but it doesn't make sense for it to have no accessibility at all

[chilly shale]

I think the closest I have seen to "Gamer Rage" about including accessibility is in cases dealing with things like auto-aim and aim assist in FPS games, the multiplayer side to be specific.

[warm jungle]

Right, yeah. But I think that's less about them getting mad about accessibility specifically and getting mad about "console can do thing PC can't, we shouldn't have competitive crossplay" etcetcetc it's more about competition than accessibility to them I think

kind of how people get big mad about that one more simple mode in SF6

people get hella weird when it comes to pvp

[chilly shale]

That is often the core of it yeah. Single player, who cares, play as you like, but add competition, either direct PvP or competivtive ranking and it being fair matters.

[radiant sun]

The only times I've seen people be angry about accessibility in video games, they're the same kind of people who think Disabled people should stay inside and make ourselves small so honestly I couldn't care less what they think.

A lot of them just don't like the idea of other people being able to complete a game because they love braging about achieving stuff

[chilly shale]

But as I said in that wall of text above, if they are playing the game for the challenge and not viewing it as a story to complete, then yes the sense of accomplishment for being skilled enough to win is the whole point.

[mossy bluff]

if they want something to brag about then maybe they should find something unique to accomplish in the real world rather than grief themselves over collections of pixels
(this is a direct response to froggies' last sentence)

[warm jungle]

If I really worked hard at something and did it and someone else who had obstacles in their way used other methods to do it to, that doesn't diminish the fact that I worked really hard and did the thing, imo

[radiant sun]

That's a personal issue though. They have to work through that themselves if the only reason they play a game is to brag about it instead of playing it for the fun it should bring.

My point was that accessibility isn't a one size fits all. It's optional features and if having optional features in a video games makes them piss their pants then they probably need therapy tbh

[warm jungle]

We have a meme in the FFXIV community about joke-bragging when watching someone clearing difficult content in a later patch when it becomes easier (unfortunately there are people who take it seriously but 99% of the time it's a meme).

in the end, you still did the thing, you worked hard, you surmounted a huge challenge and whether/how other people did it doesn't change that

[polar grove]

Call of duty is getting dumped on hard

[warm jungle]

CoD is getting dumped on for plenty of reasons but having an accessibility consultant (if they do?) is not one I've heard

[radiant sun]

It's getting dumped hard because new cod sucks, not because it's accessible

Point is, people can be happy they accomplished something without being a baby because other people got to accomplish it too

[warm jungle]

if I climbed Mt Fuji and a year later they added an elevator to a section it doesn't change the fact that I climbed Mt Fuji

if you lose a sense of accomplishment because a thing becomes accessible/easier for someone else, then you don't care about the accomplishment, you care about bragging

[polar grove]

Well I am just going to sit over here and believe a large part of the gaming culture lashes out at diversity and accessibility inclusion because that's definitely what I see

[radiant sun]

You're not wrong, but those are a very specific type of people that hate literally everything that isnt cis white dude stuff

[polar grove]

The question Is does that group bring in the most money to gaming or does the inclusive group

[warm jungle]

I mean,can you link me to a game that lost money and got gamer rage for having an accessibility consultant?

[radiant sun]

Literally impossible to answer without extensive surveying of the games audience also looking at what their monitization practice is

[polar grove]

Having an accessibility consultant no. Including diversity and reducing difficulty to accommodate accessibility yes

[radiant sun]

Ok but generally (I recognize not always, but like 99% of the time) accessibility is not something they shove into the game. It's all optional features.

Shoehorning it in without options would be antithetical to the whole point of accessibility.

[polar grove]

I would disagree. A lot of games patch in features to allow people not at top end progression to experience content. And it usually causes a ton of complaints

[fathom charm]

To add to this, very rarely do I feel like the push is to make every game accessible. None of us are dumb we know that’s unreasonable. I could never play any platforming type game there’s no realistic way to make that type of content accessible to me without losing the core of its gameplay.

The anger and the disappointment we all feel is especially valid because s6 promoted Palia as a game that would be inclusive yet somehow we’re the bad guys for being upset that we were deceived and continue to be ignored. If they had never promoted itself as a game for everybody, I wouldn’t be half as annoyed that I might potentially be forever locked out of content but I went in thinking at the very least this cozy game was accessible.

[warm jungle]

Can you list some examples, out of curiosity?

[warm grove]

Just because it causes complaints, doesn't mean it makes them lose money, though. If anything, it would encourage some others to actually start attempting those progression-type features. It would for me, at least. It'd make me want to play it more and progress.

[polar grove]

They call it dumbing down content. I would call it making it more accessible. An example: world of Warcraft.

[radiant sun]

Yeah, exactly. Just cause we're Disabled doesn't mean we're fools, we know that perfect accessibility does not exist and can never exist but there are certain things that are very baseline and easy to include accessibility features that are so foolish not to have.

[warm grove]

Coming from WoW myself, people do complain about that, yes. However, a lot of people have enjoyed it, and a lot of NEW players have started the game, some people have also came BACK to the game due to it starting to be more accessible.

Example: Me. I'm starting to come back because it's becoming more accessible and easier for me to process and understand.

[polar grove]

Check the player base for wow its really declining

[warm jungle]

Yeah I'mma be real, I think WoW was going through much bigger issues than accessibility

[radiant sun]

WOW also is, IMO, a big outlier. It's the biggest MMO in the world and for most people, the first MMO they ever played. Their audience is primarily nostalgia seekers and (from what I've heard) people hate it because management apparently sucks.

[polar grove]

Sure you can say that but 20 years of posting complaints and cancelled subs say it is also something that bothers people enough to make them quit. Please don't move the goal post.

[chilly shale]

Lets look at it a different way then.
You work hard to get a degree at a particular college showing you have mastered the skills involved and hold it out proudly. Then shortly after you find that others can literally just buy the same degree from that college without ever taking a class. Is your degree worth the same now?

Can you show it off to others with the same sense of pride when it becomes known that they can be bought? Because that is the view that some are using.

If they consider that a game is a test of skill then completion of that game is proof of skill. Lower the skill requirement and it is no longer the proof of the same level of skill. That is the view they are taking.

Again, why I say the blending with stories is such an issue. For one it is entirely the challenge and the proof of skill, for another, the experience and story. Strip the story entirely out of the game, and do you still have a reason to play? Are you after the story, or the gameplay mechanic?

[warm grove]

People started to leave WoW due to the gameplay loop which was continuous dailies, from all that I've heard.

But this also doesn't get rid of the fact that I have continuously heard people start playing the game, along with coming back, due to the changes that they have started or have been trying to work on.

[warm jungle]

You can't possibly compare gaming to a college degree, even as an analogy. They're NOTHING alike. Beating Elden Ring with no gear on doesn't help you get a career. A degree from a prestigious institution does (at least it used to, lol).

I can't respond to any of that because the comparison is ludicrous

[radiant sun]

That metaphor doesn't work at all though.

A better metaphor would be finishing an exam vs someone who gets extra time due to their disability finishing an exam. Both finished the exam, both did the work - one just was able to do it in an accessible way.

[polar grove]

But... numbers don't lie. There are... God's do you even know how many times there has been a wow post about the gsme being dumbed down? And no one thinks it has any influence on the game?

[warm jungle]

Why do you keep saying that a game's overall difficulty lessening is the same as optional accessibility features?

[mossy bluff]

ITT Tech vs an actual legitimate university lmao

[warm jungle]

Do you really think Asmongold is going to make a ragebait video about Palia adding in a brightness slider?

Yes, I'm being specific, because you keep conflating the two and acting like they're the same

[polar grove]

You are trying to be very specific here. I am saying a lot of gamers are butts and diversity and accessibility are buzz words they rally against and will even review bomb before playing

Why do you keep mentioning brightness slider? Is that the only feature for accessibility that qualifies? Reducing damage in fights, increasing dps, making easy access for bypassing puzzles etc all are also features we should want

[mossy bluff]

palia isn't a fighting game

[warm jungle]

I'm mentioning brightness sliders because it's the bare minimum of accessibility features S6 refuses to add into Palia

[polar grove]

We are talking about gaming in general. I was asked to provide one game that lost money due to adding accessibility so I assumed we are talking about the gaming industry

[warm grove]

🙂 WoW is also a huge massive game, and as Froggies mentioned earlier, is a big outlier. It's the biggest MMO out there, and it's definitely the first one that a lot of people played.

A lot of the people who mention the "D//mbing down" (which i really hate that term, let's not use this anymore please), are from those who played from the start. It's going to feel different. That's just how it is for any and a lot of games and game franchises.

I am, still, trying to mention that there ARE STILL people who are going into the game NEW due to how much easier it is to play now. Along with some people COMING BACK because of it. And even then, it's hard to talk about WoW when it's, again, the largest MMO and is hard to compare to Palia (in my opinion.)

And the reason we are bringing up Brightness Sliders, is because that's something we have been asking and requesting since the start, and it's literally the most basic and bare minimum things they could add and put into the game.

[radiant sun]

i'm honestly confused what you're saying. Also in an MMO reducing damage and increasing DPS isn't really an accessibility feature, it's a gameplay mechanic that is specifically addressed with raids and looting

[polar grove]

I already said Palia could do a lot better and that's not gonna change lol. People won't complain about brightness sliders but I can predict they will complain if they add an option to skip puzzles

[quick oxide]

i really like the accessibility features in celeste, which is a quite challenging platformer. it's customisable enough that anyone with a disability could use it to make them able to play/beat the game while still being challenging. so i don't think accesibility features necessarily make a game "easier" or "less challenging," they just level the playing field.

[warm grove]

One of the things that people were massively happy about that they added to WoW, which can go under QoL and even accessibility, is the being able to loot multiple bodies and things at once. It was a mast improvement, and I don't think i heard many people "complain" about that, other than " my bags are so full."

[fathom charm]

Dumbing down the content isn’t necessarily the same as accessibility though? The company isn’t doing that for specifically for the disabled community theyre trying to appeal to any and everybody to get them to spend money. They could care less if it’s specifically helps the disabled they want casuals to not quit bc the content feels too hard.

[polar grove]

But it does benefit us, too.

[warm grove]

Can we please start saying something other than "D//mbing down" please 🙏

[warm jungle]

Hardcore players up their own ass are always gonna complain content is being made easier when a game is still making money hand over fist because it's casual accessible

/huge flailing arms towards FFXIV

[polar grove]

Yeah when I mentioned that I did say it's what they call it I wasn't thinking it would stick in the convo sorry about that

[radiant sun]

But no one mentioned skipping puzzles. Accessibility is rarely "let me skip this content", it's whole purpose is "let me do this content that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise"

I can promise you, Disabled people playing video games want to actually play the video games - not skip content. We're often forced to because there isn't accessibility.

Also, returning to the WOW example for a quick second, one of WOW's USP (unique selling point) has always been that it's the simplest MMO out there - that's why it's so popular, because people who aren't usually into MMOs can get into it easier.

[polar grove]

Skipping puzzles was mentioned earlier. Returning to wow and having it be more accessible is great. The point I am trying to make is you folx are on one side of twitter and alot of others are on another. You say everyone is excited to go back, but the numbers show massive decline. Most people are big I to wow for hard core. Hard core is def not accessible for me.

[hoary heron]

I think this may be what has spiraled into "skipping puzzles" #♿│accessibility-discussions message

[fathom charm]

Exactly we’re just as much gamers, we want the content, the story and the challenge but we just need other avenues made available so that we can also enjoy the game. We’re not asking for easy just that it’s accessible

[polar grove]

Anything that kind of means one or two mistakes means you fail I can't do because I get so upset when my hands stop working

[static wolf]

imo this sounds like a cool feature option too, and people mad about it existing can simply choose not to use it

[radiant sun]

That was from a while ago so I didn't assume it was connected to the convo, apologies.

I said before, but yes there are 100% people that don't want accessibility in gaming - but those people are the same people that are upset that pronouns exist in some games. It's not that we don't think they exist (believe me, we know they exist because anytime we talk about accessibility in Palia outside of this channel we get harassed)

[polar grove]

Final fantasy had a nice thi g where if you fail a quest storyline thing you can lower the difficulty and try again. I loved that.

[quick oxide]

that's an obstacle course, not a puzzle technically. again i think an "assist mode" like celeste could be helpful for ie the wind temple but it would take some work of course

[radiant sun]

Yeah. That's all accessibility is is assistance, it's not "give me this now!"

[chilly shale]

If the "obstacles in their way" from the message I was responding to were unrelated things that stopped someone from showcasing their ability in the tested skill, then yes your comparison of test times does fit better, but if those obstacles are instead a lack of ability in the skill being tested, using your comparison it wouldn't be extra time, it would be making the test an open book one for that individual. That is where people would start having issues. If the skills they see as being critical to beating the game are the ones that they see as being bypassed by the addition of a particular feature, they will see it as a handout that diminishes the value of the accomplishments they have made. Now if they are accurate in that view is a different issue, this is to point out why people would have issue with it.

[pastel mica]

And rather than an option between old and new they washed out the games color palette and night doesn't feel like night anymore.

More lighting level options for folks who need them is always good.

[radiant sun]

I think the point is that people are always going to think like that though - people think that way about games that offer the choice between ranged and melee. But that shouldn't be a reason to not have accessibility

[polar grove]

Time for dinner but I just want to restate I want all of what you want. But I've been out there and seen how toxic things are and a lot of the industry is against us outside of indie devs and even then?? It's why I only play indie games

[radiant sun]

Believe me I've been fighting in the accessibility trenches for a while 🤣 I definitely get you. We shouldn't have to fight, but unfortunately we do

[chilly shale]

Heh, I remember when that choice was the difficulty setting in games. The Warrior, Rogue/ranger, Mage choice was basically the Easy, Medium, Hard difficulties.

[radiant sun]

Yep - though in games I've played it was always the other way around with melee classes being considered harder and ranged considered easier. Meanwhile the reason I played melee is because it's most accessible for me in games

[warm jungle]

As someone who has every job maxed in FFXIV, I admire you melee players LOL I always get over it (so of course my main alt is a tank...)

[fathom charm]

I don’t think and I would hope that s6 and other companies would realize that the toxicity that could arise over people being mad that their video game points somehow mean less isn’t the priority over the game being accessible to more people.

I feel like just look at FFXIV you have the extreme content and the casual content. The MSQ is mostly accessible to anyone looking to play and if you happen to want the challenge you go for the extreme content. Keeping most people happy

[warm jungle]

and for every raider complaining 24 mans got easier, yoshi P spits out another sack of gold

[pastel mica]

Im primarily a dragoon in XIV idk how ranged people do the things lol 😂

[radiant sun]

I admire ranged folks so much, I have such bad hand eye cordination for that kind of stuff. I just spray and pray whenever I play anything ranged

[chilly shale]

I have to wonder how much it would change if Palia supported the 'z' targetting of OoT for bugs and hunting. 😛

[warm jungle]

DRG was never the same after they lost poledancing smh

[pastel mica]

I friggin loved Z targeting

[hoary heron]

The only way I manage with a variety of jobs is standardizing my hotbars--e.g. I main White Mage but sometimes I play Sage and the names of the abilities are very similar to one another as an English-speaking person who knows very little Greek. But I can manage because I know the top row is single target, bottom row is AoE, left side is damage, then we move into various heals as we continue to the right side. And I pair up abilities where there's a single target and AoE version of the same ability.

[warm jungle]

Yeah, I do exactly the same!

[pastel mica]

Same that's why my bars make no sense to anyone else.

[fathom charm]

Lmao the crazy thing is through my friend I’ve met a lot of hardcore raiders, the ones that are very good actually don’t care if the rest of the game is accessible bc it doesn’t change that they are extremely good and they still feel challenged by the content meant for them.

[hoary heron]

As long as they make sense to you, that's the most important thing ❤️

[quick oxide]

i've never really tried an MMO like WoW because from what i've seen, there's so much information on the screen at once that i would not be able to handle it

[silk mountain]

Frankly, I think comparing Palia to other MMOs is disingenuous, primarily because it's being marketed specifically as a casual, chill, inclusive game. This is not a game for the types who want challenging content. It's specifically supposed to be stress-free and slower paced. Trying to compare it to other games that aren't in the same genre or with the same goal doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because they're inherently different.

Not that we can't use other games as examples for things that we like and would like to see implemented in Palia, but the reason the lack of accessibility is even more of an issue because the game is supposed to be low-stakes and chill.

[chilly shale]

Are you looking at the default UI or the monsters some people use and swear works better? 😛

[warm grove]

Yeah, I have a huge processing issue of some kind. WoW and others can be difficult, and it's why (at least for WoW), addons have helped me understand what's going on in a sense. Just hearing "Run away", im like "ah yes, i know that at least, i go this way and if i rip, i rip."

However, the main thing I enjoy int hose kind of games, has always ended up being more casual stuff. Getting materials and crafting. I really gotta properly give FF14 a try in that department, but I always fixate on diff games at once, and juggle.

I'm still not fully certain what I'd compare Palia to, other game wise. I keep trying to figure that out, but I'm not really sure. I'd say maybe animal crossing to a degree, but even then, doesn't feel completely accurate.

[radiant sun]

Yeah I think Palia is in a weird place of trying to be a lot of things at once so its hard to compare

[quick oxide]

i think of it as kinda a combination of stardew valley, botw (in aesthetics/controls) and animal crossing

[warm grove]

It's honestly one of the things that has been a struggle; been trying to find a game that properly fits that "void" that Palia left behind for me. I stopped playing due to having a struggle, and honestly, just not really agreeing with how they've handled a lot of things lately and for a hot minute. (which I'm sure we all can agree on).

[silk mountain]

The only thing from AC that would even remotely carry over imo is the decorating. And maybe friendships? But mostly Palia falls pretty square into the farm sim category

[radiant sun]

Same - I've been trying out a few games in its void and have been having some fun, but they're not the same

[quick oxide]

animal crossing in the sense of being a real time social sim with lots of resource gathering and customisation

[silk mountain]

That's fair. I played a lot of AC before New Horizons, so I sometimes forget the crafting aspect since that's new. Or maybe it's just been so long that I've forgotten entirely 😅

[quick oxide]

very true, i played ac: city folk occasionally as a kid and the vibes/mechanics are very different
like i think city folk was relaxing but new horizons feels too overwhelming most of the time, i do like the clothing options though

[warm grove]

I moreso think of AC due to the catching bugs/fish aspect, and being able to decorate. But even then, it feels completely different in AC compared to Palia, so it's hard to put them together because of that. Same goes for Disney Dreamlight.

Edit: I also played a bunch of New Leaf, and New Horizons, which is what I'm thinking of a lot myself

[silk mountain]

Yeah I played hundreds of hours of both the original and New Leaf, so that's usually what I think of in regards to AC lol

omg yeah I didn't even consider the catching aspect either 🤦‍♀️ lol

[polar grove]

Not to bring back that convo but I was just thinking about the conversation about accessibility features and talking about difficulty. Changing text size a d brightness would help so many people but for me? My problem is nerve damage in my hands, so the accessibility feature that I personally need to see to enjoy a game is content I can complete with goofy hands that don't want to do what they are told. I am just saying this because I felt like I was being dismissive u didn't intent to be. I was just coming from a place where my disability affects my life and how I enjoy games.

So I apologize if I came off that way. It was not my intention.

[warm grove]

We were mainly just talking about basic things, that should of already been in the game. I'm also someone who struggles with my mouse, along with my keyboard. (not fully sure why, doctors have 0 idea). So I competely understand.

I personally can't fish in Palia due to it, and hunting is awful because of it, too. I might not fully understand where youre coming from, but I at least understand parts of it. I just hope you can also understand why we mainly talk about those things!

We all want more accessibility in general And I'm sure we understand your point(s), too. I personally don't think you were being dismissive

[polar grove]

It hurts me because I used to be a hard core player pushing mythic content on release and topping servers in pve. My friends still are and tell me about it and how fun it is and I miss it so damn much. I don't always know how to deal with those feelings sometimes.

[warm grove]

I can understand that. I am a completionist, and sometimes an achievement hunter (for specific games, usually favorites). and it ends up being upsetting that I can't properly do specific things in games, that i used to be able to. My reaction time in a lot has gotten difficult (so i have a harder time playing Souls games now, which used to be a favorite), reading/processing things that are being said to me (or when I read them.) My hands getting worse so I have to get smaller keyboards, which gives me less keybinds (so I cant play some jobs/classes in ff14, which is also why I just... stopped).

So I fully understand. And it's always hard to deal with those feelings, especially when it's something you used to be able to do. My whole point here is, you're not alone, and I, at least, can understand where you're coming from. It's not easy.

[polar grove]

Thank you. This little discord channel is a really great community.

[radiant sun]

I 100% understand you. The symptoms of my own disability (Cerebral Palsy) have been worsening as I get older so it's a weird time going back to things I did as a child and not being able to do it

[fathom charm]

If it’s too personal feel free to ignore but are you fully unable to play? Or just unable to play at the speed/demand of most groups? I only ask bc my friend is a hardcore raider and while he doesn’t have a physical disability he was so uncomfortable in a lot of communities it made him decide to start his own guild built on being accepting and kind so I wonder if it’s possible to put together your own group of people who may have a similar issue and prog at your own speed

[polar grove]

I can play, but I can't always do what I mean to do. My fingers don't always move how I want them to, which means clicking is hard. On the keyboard I don't always hit the keys I intend to hit. A hotkey like Q for instance I will hot W and end up just running off a ledge.

I used to be the kind of jerk we talk about. My friends were too. They still are, I think, to a degree. That's why I had a counter opinion about how it influences games. I've literally lost friends who quit games for making them more accessible (which now include people like me. I dont get to see the content when they do. I have to wait). I wish I wasn't Like that and I could say I was always a kind person, but I wasn't. Just have to try and do better

[mossy bluff]

i just don't understand how people can be so lacking in empathy

[polar grove]

Honestly? It's mob mentality to a degree. Sometimes people like to be edgy. You don't even believe most of what you say but it makes your friends laugh. I am sure some people do, too. But most of the time you just think people lack a sense of humor. Mostly it's because a lot of people live in echo chambers. I didn't stop being a jerk because I became disabled. You don't think your jokes really hurt anyone... until they do. I hurt a friend I did not know was Trans. I sat and talked with her, she was very patient and helped me understand and I've worked hard to be open and not put anything but positivity into the world as much as I can

[mossy bluff]

i've never hurt anyone with a joke, but then again i've never been edgy like that

[polar grove]

Not a lot of people have friends that would be brave enough to check them. I was lucky.

And I am also much happier as a person with more respect for myself. I never believed any of the stuff I said, I always knew that. But I wanted to fit in.

[radiant sun]

Not to be all psychology, but yeah it comes down to mob mentality and just the way someone was nurtured really. Folks that were born in environments that looked down upon Disabled people, especially if the folks doing that were their parents, are way more likely to internalize that behavior. Even if they eventually become Disabled (which many will, it's the only minority you can become) it takes a lot of rewiring and internal deconstruction to get rid of that.

When I first came out as trans, for example, I had very incorrect beliefs - thankfully, due to the internet being so readily availble, I was able to do the work needed to work through those things - for people, especially those who live in sheltered environments, it's hard to do sometimes and some just refuse.

[fathom charm]

I think you should allow yourself a bit more grace. This a very difficult world to be kind in and you learned and changed which is a lot more than what most people do. All we can all do is our best and try to make the world a little better than it is. No shame and growing and changing

[polar grove]

Thank you. I appreciate you! Sometimes people tell you who you are so long that you forget. Hopefully everyone can have a friend that can help remind them when they really need it.

[quick oxide]

from my experience, people tend to view the group they dislike (whether that be race, gender, sexuality, disability or any other characteristic, minor or major, immutable or not) in a very abstract way, so that they can justify their hatred to themselves. when they meet someone from that group they have a certain stereotype in their mind that they judge them off of. it's only when they actually have a friend with that characteristic, and really listen to them, that they really reconsider their opinions, because they realize that [characteristic] is just one part of a complete person, and they actually start to empathize with them

(not that someone can't be a bigot while also having a friend from that group)

[chilly shale]

It isn't just groups they dislike, Stereotyping is something we do for every group as humans. It helps with keeping things organized when we can lump stuff together in a box and go everything can be responded to in the same way.
This box is friends, this box is coworkers, this one is for the political party I favor, this is for the one I oppose. We teach those boxes to others because it is a useful way to generalize when discussing basics. This group was known historically to do this, this other group routinely pushes for this other thing.

We run into problems when the stereotype does not accurately describe the group. Things that don't fit into the box means we have to reconsider things and take more effort on something instead of just lumping it into a well known box and moving on. If that box is a cornerstone of your belief then there will certainly be resistance to having to reassess everything you thought you had figured out. And if it is aggressively pointed out that you are wrong about the box, well, we see how well people take being proven wrong on the internet, double down and get defensive about it because to do otherwise is to admit to being wrong.

Being able to recategorize those boxes takes enough evidence to overcome the confirmation bias of a life of cherry picked examples promoting what you thought was true, and enough time to navel gaze as it were to think about what those changes mean for everything else you thought true.

The less important a given box is to your life, and the less evidence to back it up, the easier it is to just accept the new info adjust and move on. But a box used as the foundation for a pillar of your self-identity, that one will take work. Kind of a throwback to the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks. A child lacking the examples collected over a lifetime to reinforce their views will be more open to changing them then an adult sure in their views.

[ember umbra]

My hands goofy at time to make precis clikking and especially bug catching hard… I like some setting for that so I Can enjoy it and not strugle with commen butterfly

[eternal skiff]

Sorry, I had written a response earlier but it didn't send because of terrible network. It's an observation most Nintendo fans have been making, not something specifically related to S6. Idk about the communication between the two and I don't care to defend S6 in this case because they seriously suck, I'm more concerned about people wrongly perceiving Nintendo as more caring than they are, because they have been making cuts everywhere by now, they're a completely different company than they used to be with the old CEO, that's all.

[eternal skiff]

About quest items, I have a mnesic disorder and it really sucks that they repop too, cus I can't keep track of what I did already or didn't if the game brings back old stuff.

[pastel mica]

I do hope we get the separate quest and ammo inventories soon. Just to keep things more organized.

[warm jungle]

I fully agree that Nintendo isn't the same company it was under Iwata but amusingly enough I have the opposite concern (well, not concern in my case but a bit of a peeve) , where they think the company is pure evil and run by the devil now and make up stories/give disinformation because of it

I feel like I see some ragebait false info once or twice a week spread across social media

[eternal skiff]

Ah that's also a concern I share so I try to stay aware of the info I read but sadly on that one side of things it checks out so far imo

[warm jungle]

Big Companies do a whole lot of bad things but it's very important to know when other companies/people are doing bad things and not to let them get away with it just cause it's easier to shuffle the blame onto Big Company. etc. sorry I just get driven nuts with clickbait misinfo I see lmao

[old vector]

right bcos medium-small company can quite easily become big company and if they are allowed to cut corners and be unethical and weird early on bc they're Small company, they will also do it when they are Big company

[chilly shale]

The smaller companies have an even easier time of being corrupt though, after all, they lack the assets of the large one that can be tracked, so the small just folds up then reappears a bit later with a new name and the same habits. We just focus on the big ones because they affect more people and so get more attention.

[severe fjord]

Hi I would like to share a party link, how can I do that?

[pastel mica]

#1143270926394335282 & #1135682474324807681 exist but I'm not sure how active they are.

[jagged meteor]

I know a lot of the discussion here has been about what S6 should be adding to the game, but I wanted to share something that's helped me a lot to play Palia.

I started playing back before there was controller support and I struggled a lot with the keyboard/mouse controls. I struggle to use keyboard to play a lot of games on PC without a contoller or a mouse. I also have tiny hands so even finding a mouse with assignable buttons that I can actually reach is a challenge.

So I am using my Azeron gamepad (plus my mouse for aiming). I've seen it mentioned in other channels but not here so much here. They are pricey, but they are super adjustable and you can assign all the buttons to whatever you'd like. It doesn't require much finger movement to activate most keys. I can do things (like platforming) that I would struggle to do without it. Maybe it could be an option to help some of you play the game.

[hoary heron]

This channel is indeed also a place to discuss workarounds that help us play the game in the state that it is right now, so thank you for sharing! Can you share the model you use, and if you feel comfortable doing so, your keybind setup as well? I'd like to put both into a format I can include on my Adaptations sheet (seen in the pins)

[pastel mica]

SteelSeries and Razor also have mice with swappable side plates for more buttons.

For Razor it's one of the nagas. And SteelSeries is the Rivals iirc.

[sacred dirge]

Just a heads-up Palia was having freezing issues with some Razer products before. I'm unsure if they still exist or not.

[pastel mica]

Last I played it was alright with my Naga but I just use the standard side plate rather than the special one.

[jagged meteor]

I’m not sure that the model I am using is even being made any more, it’s several years old at this point. The Azeron Cyborg is the closest to what I am using, it actually has a few more buttons than mine does.

Most of the Razor and SteelSeries mice are too large for my hands. Though I am currently using a SteelSeries mouse that’s working okay for now.

[pastel mica]

If the game doesn't handle the plate hot swapping while the game is open I could see that being an issue though:|a

Yeah the steel series mouse took me a little bit to get used to. And it was weird to swap to the Naga when it died

[chilly shale]

Has anyone tried VoiceAttack on Steam? It is a speech recognition software that lets you map vocal commands to keypresses and macros. I held off on ever trying it because the complexity of the macros you can do with it had at least one game I played flagging it as a possible botting tool, but comments for it do mention how much it helped some people that had difficulty with using keyboards and controllers.

[eternal skiff]

I don't mind to switch topics but I was wondering who exactly had used the dedicated ways to have our concerns heard and in that case if they'd gotten a response?
Namely, by submitting feedback and tickets on the site, or maybe on Twitter?

UI scaling at the very least should be implemented no matter the platform, for example, but even that is still lacking so far.

[static wolf]

I've submitted so many feedback requests through the form, but one of the things that says is that you won't get a response- so I haven't gotten a response there

[noble kelp]

I've even sent in concerns through the wrong avenues to find a response, and I did get one, but it's so vague and cookie cutter, it might as well be a non-response

[old raft]

Bruje Butch I have gone through the website with an issue that I was having. The e-mail was answered the same day just a couple of hours with some helpful tips for my issue.

[vast void]

Maybe Im the odd one but 80% of my reports get responses as we try to recreate steps. I also send a ton of files and videos so that might be why. The times I don't get a response is if it is a known wide spread bug. That's just my experience so far. I also report bugs like every other week.

[radiant sun]

I've got responses for bugs, but anything that mentions accessibility has been ignored whether it's been tickets, feedback forms, or twitter

[static wolf]

oh yeah, I sometimes get bug responses, but almost none of them have been accessibility-specific

[eternal skiff]

Thanks you all, I was specifically asking about bringing up accessibility concerns, but that's my bad for not specifying. It's good to have comebacks on other issues though, for comparison's sake.

[pastel mica]

I do wish they had a listing somewhere of common suggestions so the forms felt less like a black hole

[eternal skiff]

A black hole? As in, it gives you blank page syndrome/writing block or something else?

I personally get nervous and lose my words when it's too open-format, for lack of a better term.

[static wolf]

I think they meant black hole like it sucks the suggestions in and nothing ever seems to come out of it- when we had the discord feedback discussion channels, we at least got to see upvotes on our posts and other players' suggestions (and ability to discuss them). Whereas the form (which is likely much easier for CMs to manage, which is good!) really has no feedback to us, we submit things and never hear back

[mossy bluff]

now it's just yelling into the void

[north mesa]

they do have a place, it's just not well used https://support.palia.com/hc/en-us/community/posts

[polar grove]

This might just be naive optimism but a lot of companies will not communicate directly with requests like the ones here. I am hoping they see them and are working, but a company typically will not say anything because it might set an expectation they can't meet. Or they aren't listening. One or the either.

[north mesa]

then there's this for known issues https://support.palia.com/hc/en-us/articles/19458664376468--Open-Beta-Troubleshooting-Known-Issues

[north mesa]

it seems like a coin flip really? I don't have my notes on this because it was for my last job, but here are some examples of companies that do communicate it

• Storygraph (book social media/tracking a la GoodReads) https://roadmap.thestorygraph.com/
• Noora (they provide the saas, storygraph uses it) https://feedback.noorahq.com/
• Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3 https://trello.com/b/n58Qr7mZ/modern-warfare-iii-sledgehammer-games-treyarch
• Call of Duty Warzone 2 https://trello.com/b/1eSBEowr/warzone-raven-software
• Fortnite https://trello.com/b/Bs7hgkma/fortnite-community-issues
• Phasmophobia https://trello.com/b/9QrnqQ1j/phasmophobia

Jan 2026 edit to add Disney Dreamlight Valley https://trello.com/b/WY5gDde3/disney-dreamlight-valley-issue-tracker-board

[static wolf]

Those are both more bug focused than feedback, right?

I'm sure right now with the CM shortage they're just trying to stay afloat, but I hope that when they can build the team back up to a decent size, maybe they'll consider doing some things that help engage the community with devs in some way- more amas? Some sort of monthly poll for top concerns? Even just a nice long term roadmap that's more to the point than the dev blogs

[north mesa]

depends on how you set it up - they both have the features for feedback, voting, bug reporting, roadmaps, kanban boards, and more

[static wolf]

Ope, sorry, realized that coming after your most recent post the "both" doesn't make much sense, I was referring to palia's pages that you linked for troubleshooting issues and player support

[north mesa]

the zendesk community could be, but it looks like they don't have submissions or comments turned on for our user role

[lost obsidian]

This one for issues has been a thing for a while, they are just still working on how to deal with it the best way. The company has been affected by a number of things recently (layoffs, CMs leaving, etc), but i hope they can make this work. After all, the reason why #1161786664016941126 didn't work at all is that it requires extra CM time. Player support has the tickets and metrics right there, so it makes sense to have them post on the support page every once in a while. This will also be affected by the new patch cadence, so we'll just have to see how it goes

As for feedback, it's a little more complicated. If the top request is non-instanced housing for example, that might land in the "impossible" category. So having the top request be something that will likely never be part of the game is definitely not a good look. This is also true for smaller requests, i just picked something as an example

The right way to respond to feedback is well... acting on it. Making changes that players want, taking many different views into account when creating new features, and just generally being aware of what the wide community thinks is how we'll move forward

They can say "we heard your feedback" as many times as they want, but that won't really do anything unless they act on said feedback. So personally, i'm okay with them being quiet on things like top requests, but i would also like to see some changes in how they handle them. But hey, maybe the new patch cadence also helps them with this, who knows

[north mesa]

it's unfortunate that CMs don't last long in gaming in general since they're seriously under valued (no power/influence, underpaid, few raises or promotions, hit early in layoffs) and have to deal with the player harassment - I know several CMs who were, in their words, happy to have escaped the games industry. I'd say that with CMs being hard to get and keep, either the Product/Project managers will have to take up feedback management/moderation & communication (you never post things that are sensitive or ruled out for some reason) or Player Support will - that is if support doesn't already fall under community.

[lost obsidian]

Support and community relations are very much mixed at S6. The CMs do a lot of "not CM" work as well, which is really just how it is with smaller companies. People wear many hats, which is great for work experience, but terrible for stress and mental health

So while i never asked anything about those who left, i don't blame them at all. I wouldn't be able to do their jobs for very long either so y'know

[north mesa]

i've worked on a proposal for a board similar to what we're talking about and the ones I showed as examples, but the company i worked at didn't trust their userbase and didn't value the trust of the userbase so it didn't happen

[lost obsidian]

I work for a manufacturing company. Some of our customers (resellers) are still complaining that they can't send faxes to us

So sometimes it makes sense

[static wolf]

To your point about not wanting to showcase top requests that are impossible, maybe they could do a monthly "here's a top request we're working on", it may not be #1 requested, or even #5, but some sort of nod to players requesting things in the dev notes. That way they can filter out impossible top requests

[lost obsidian]

I think that could be an angle for sure. Baking them into the dev blogs would make sense, as they can start planning those quite in advance

[pastel mica]

And yeah I did mean it feels like feedback goes nowhere.

Got pulled away for medical thing.

[static wolf]

I hope the medical thing went well

[pastel mica]

Well enough considering. Hospitals are tiring AF.

[barren atlas]

Haven't had any issues with razer products myself, mouse or keyboard. Hmm...

[sacred dirge]

They may have fixed it. It was a while ago now.

[barren atlas]

Been playing since the start of open beta. Any idea which products were having issues?

[pastel mica]

Most issues with razer things I tend to assume it's Synapse causing problems (as it seems to like to)

[barren atlas]

I actually use the og version of synapse, my hand to god I'm not using synapse 3 💀 basic ui with no frills no nonsense, backups never fail. super straight forward, no problems. 5 stars on that one

[lost obsidian]

Maybe the RGB headphone stand? || jk ||

[barren atlas]

i remember when logitech forced me to use ghub or whatever, it bricked my mouse lol. to this day if i plug it in it glitches out. its been in a drawer for like 3 years. bunch of other ppl started having the same issue at the same time

[lost obsidian]

My G403 can't run on on software control. I have to make a profile, write my settings to the mouse, then turn off software control for it to not break

Logitech has some great stuff. G Hub isn't one of those

[barren atlas]

mine was a g600, if i plug it in it spams g12 g16 and g20 nonstop, and the scroll wheel is constantly moving. weirdest issue i've ever had. doesn't matter what device i plug it into. googled the issue, other people were having it too. bizzare

i have a naga epic atm and its fallen off my desk twice a day for the last 6 years and this baby is still livin it up

[lost obsidian]

G403 has been pretty solid for ~5 years now. Had to replace the main two microswitches once (i do NOT recommend doing that unless you have a decent amount of soldering experience), but that's about it

However, i'll probably get something else once this set of switches breaks. We'll see when that happens, but i do have a backup G305 hehe

[pastel mica]

The only reason I have a Naga right now is my button switches died in my SteelSeries rival after like 4 years lol

[lost obsidian]

So like my work mouse is a Corsair Katar Pro with the same switches i put into the G403. That thing is ✨ mint ✨ , highly recommended if you need a portable mouse

It's relatively cheap, super easy to service if you do have/want to change the switches and it can do bluetooth/USB 2.4ghz

[warm jungle]

all I know is that I wouldn't be able to survive in proper MMOs without my G502. My hands are teeny tiny and cannot reach enough buttons for all my skills. Using buttons on my mouse as modifiers like ctrl, ctrl+alt, etc is a godsend

[eternal skiff]

Ooooh okay that makes more sense than my initial interpretation!!

[eternal skiff]

Wait, CM shortage? They cut down on their workforce?

[eternal skiff]

Yeah I've noticed that and I'm super uncomfortable with how CMs are treated here tbh, I even tried speaking up about it once because one of the female CM was given a petname by really sardonic players who were often picking at the game in bad faith rather than addressing actual issues in a "let's bring this to light so it's fixed" mentality...
So if that's why there's a CM shortage I'm sadly not surprised

Also sorry I keep coming back to convos late and still replying, I've noticed ^^'

[static wolf]

The CM team used to have 4 people, but last December 2 of them stepped down. I think S6 has put up listings to hire back both positions, but yeah right now there's 2 people doing the work that was already much more than 4 people should've been doing

[fossil folio]

Hey I'm starting to get really motion sick when running, gliding, etc. Is there a setting change that I could make to help with this?

[pine hornet]

I've been having this problem lately too, because the frames are dropping more lately than normal. Like earlier today it seemed like I was getting like 10 frames a second for a brief period. Not sure what's causing it, entirely, although freeing up more resources for Palia than I was freeing up before is helping for now (but what will happen when I have no more resources to free up? also if I want to view the wiki while playing, how am I supposed to do that if I can't open a browser?). I suspect (rather, hoping) it might have something to do with loading times for objects on a connection with many more users than expected.

I can't imagine what else has changed, since there hasn't been an update.

low frames very quickly trigger nausea and migraines for me, that's why i can't play on switch

[fossil folio]

I think that's what it is for me. It only started within the last 2-3 days. I've been playing on the switch fine almost immediately after it released for it, but the past couple days I can't play too long without feeling like my eyes are crossing and getting nauseous. So odd. Also, if you are on a windows PC, you can hit windows + TAB and be able to shift between palia and a browser or anything else that you may want open

[pine hornet]

I generally find that increasing FOV reduces motion sickness in games for me in general, but that's highly subjective; other people find that decreasing FOV reduces motion sickness for them. There's also a persistent reticle, but those are both settings in the PC version not the switch version.

Also you can't use alt-tab to switch to another app if you can't have other apps open due to frames dropping. I have two monitors and normally use alt-tab/windows-tab all the time, but I've had to close those apps recently because of the frames issue

[fossil folio]

Hmm odd. I'm able to do it on my PC with no issues. I wasn't able to at first for the same reason, but recently (last month or two) I have been able to. Could help that I had to factory reset my PC too and Palia is just about the only thing downloaded on it now lol. I wish there were settings to help with MS for the switch, but for now I'll deal with it or switch to PC occassionally

[pine hornet]

I think you're still misunderstanding me lol, i can't have the apps open at all. Regardless of switching or not, having them open at all does drain my PC a little bit and worsens the frames issue. Like having too many tabs open.

I wonder also if the problem would be lessened if we play during "off-peak hours" like, instead of the time period about 8 hours ago to 2 hours ago, we were to play from like 6 hours from now to 12 hours from now, sort of thing

[static wolf]

What window mode do you have it in? I had that problem so much in fullscreen (in terms of other apps causing problems), but less of a problem in windowed fullscreen.

[radiant sun]

I noticed, at least when I played not sure if it's fixed now, that Kilima is especially laggy. Every time I went there I got maybe 20 frames max and constant stuttering

[eternal skiff]

they're.... Two people.

We're a hundred of active participants in this Discord at the very least.

Like I knew it was common to have an understaffed team, but even four was ridiculous compared to how many we are.

[radiant sun]

wait there used to be 4 CMs? I've only ever seen one of them

[eternal skiff]

It's possible they were not all on "speaking" duty, some of them could be writing statements behind the scene or estimating the player base morale or other tasks related to their job

[static wolf]

The discord says there are 100 thousand people online right now, obviously not everyone's active here but that's still a lot of people. There are mods to help regulate behavior, but not enough of them either imo. And in addition to the front facing stuff they do here and on other platforms, they have to manage all of the player feedback we submit to the form, write patch notes, communicate our feedback to devs, manage the Shepp Program, and manage the content creator program. And that's just the stuff I know for sure about

[eternal skiff]

That is literally undoable. They're set up to fail. What are the higherups at the studio thinking? On a game like Palia their work is vital??

[static wolf]

Yes, we still have melbelle (I believe they do all of the content creator stuff) and Asherelle, in December AmeliaMarz and GingebreadWitch (who used to do the shepp program) stepped down. And before open beta I feel like I remember there being another CM? But these are the ones I'm for sure about since open beta

[radiant sun]

Ah Melbelle is the one I've never seen

[eternal skiff]

So, wait, that means that when we submit anything about accessibility anywhere, they're the ones supposed to pass it onto the next step of the process?
While managing all the other tasks?

[static wolf]

Yes, which is why they moved away from the discord feedback channels to the one form, and they've said they don't read here so we should submit there- it used to be that they were told to get feedback from discord and reddit and that was even more of a lot.

If you submit a player support ticket for things like bugs, those are different people (the player support team), but all feedback on the form is under the CM job

I suppose disclaimer that I don't work for S6, and the last time CMs talked about managing feedback was a few months ago so they could have changed the model since then, but that's the last model I heard of it

[lost obsidian]

That is correct. Amelia was also the head of community, aka their boss

There was also another CM who started around the original announcements way back in the day, but then Amelia took over from her

[eternal skiff]

It's a blessing you've kept track of it and are willing to explain it in good faith tbh

No wonder nothing moves. I naively expected Palia to still have the usual malpractice of the industry, except toned down, but no the studio just... Poisoned its only way of healthy communication with the playerbase at the root.

🧍

And the less feedback we get, the more people feel justified in being aggressive, all the while acting as if we're speaking directly to the managers, when in truth the people who have to read our griefs and report them back are the overworked, underpaid, understaffed employees.

That's typical mismanagement causing grievous morale in the consumer base, I'm having flashbacks from my sociology classes because of how textbook this is 💀

I'm also over it like, as a french. The utter lack of work ethics has me in hives this is the whole Blizzard debacle all over again

[lost obsidian]

At least they are starting to hire again, which is good to see. CMs are just super hard to find, especially ones who can hit the ground running

We try our best to help out wherever we can, but since we are basically just bystanders, it's not that much

[eternal skiff]

See, that doesn't really reassure me because the whole reason they are hiring in the first place is because the ex-workers stepped down, which I'm guessing is due to how dire their working conditions were.

We have no guarantee that those working conditions will be improved, and so I'm afraid that this could be the start of a turnover phenomenon, especially with how a non-negligeable part of the playerbase is getting (understandably) impatient, and thus way more virulent (which isn't as valid imo).

But knowing about that CM shortage is a first step in the right direction, for me at least! Now I have answers as to why our grief as disabled players have gone unheard, and it's not just the ordinary snobby ableist nonsense.

It runs deeper than that.
(At least it's what I'm speculating, but like that's still progress in my eye)

[lost obsidian]

Well, i can't comment directly on working conditions and such

However, launching a game on multiple platforms in the state it's in currently is extremely stressful. Not just for CMs, but for everyone else as well

But not everyone can handle this kind of stress. Or maybe they can, but they don't want to deal with it. We went from alpha to live way too quickly (like a couple years earlier than i was expecting personally), so this is around the time where problems like this will come to the surface. Especially with the holiday break when people had time to reflect on whatever they were thinking about

So yeah. Not sure what the future holds, but the recent changes i've seen feel like they are trying to head in the right direction. But i guess we'll see in a few months once they can adjust to the new patch cadence and such

[eternal skiff]

The multiplatform release definitely factors in, you're right, but I was thinking that just the pressure from dealing with all the feedback from such a huge server, on Discord alone, would be so much to have to handle.

Like, I've been here for less than a year and a lot of said feedback was abusive and skeevy, some bordering on creepy, some downright degrading and sexist.

Holiday break too, you're right, I had completely overlooked that.

I don't think it's messed up past fixing but I'm not surprised communication is stalling so much, not anymore now that I know about that. I'm hoping you'll turn out to be correct on them heading in the right direction.

That does leave me with wondering how to help our specific issues, though.

[lost obsidian]

Oh yeah, pressure will absolutely be high for a while. I hope they can get that sorted, but i guess we'll have to see how it goes

Like the shepp program has certain benefits for us (nothing crazy, but we do have an NDA), but even we don't bother the CMs too much

I'm not sure if i have specific advice for what to do. Submitting bug reports and filling in the feedback form is the best way to get ideas to them still. Even if they fall behind on the form, the submissions will be there for when they can get to them

So yeah. We'll just have to hang in there and hope for the best

[eternal skiff]

It's the best means of communication if we follow the channels left to us by the studio.

But I'm wondering if it's enough to make ourselves heard in a sea of feedbacks, because accessibility should be one of their priority, lest their whole "let's have an inclusive community" fall moot, and we're nowhere near that. It should be a concern that gets separated and brought to the front from the getgo.

[molten swift]

yeah back in the alpha days we got more communication from more s6 staff, even devs were chiming in on a semi regular basis, and they were so responsive to some things and that's part of what gave me so much hope for this game. That started tapering off and then I feel like a while before the nintendo announcement things really shifted and most of the alpha playerbase was I think really shocked to hear the nintendo announcement would be coming so soon bc we expected at least another year or two in development and alpha testing. To me it just feels like it's been spiraling from there.

[eternal skiff]

That would make sense. But I'm happy to hear that they seemed genuine and trustworthy at first. I've come to the game very recently, a week at most before open beta.
People were skeptical and from a pragmatic pov I understand why they rushed it- with no open beta the monetization thru cosmetics was going to be too little too late, since their initial monetization choice is praisable but harduous given what the norm is in the industry. It was a bold bet.

So far I've chosen to have faith because I've seen more evidence of the issues being because of structural dysfunctions and mismanagement at the top (which is just. always gonna exist in video games, i think personally) rather than a lack of good will.

[silk mountain]

Just wanted to clarify that they had something like $50 million or more in investment funds to make this game, so cosmetics definitely weren't the only way they were making money.

[eternal skiff]

I am aware of the funds they started with, and that's just. Not how economics work in video games making, especially free-to-play mmo titles. That money wasn't S6's to take and run with. It's an investment. That means the investors are expecting to have that sum paid back at least in part, to generate benefits. And there's even more complex things in the industry that I can't understand because I'm not literate enough about the business.

It depends on the legislations at play, but by definition any investment is a sort of loan. That can even mean that the investors can resort to insurances and clauses to take back their money if a project bears no fruit past a certain deadline.

[lost obsidian]

It's a difficult question to answer

What i can say is that they are absolutely aware that accessibility is a major issue, which is likely a result of not having the right staff to make them aware

Like the vast majority of people without disabilities aren't impacted daily by the same issues disabled people are. Even if we take a super common example like being bound to a wheelchair, people just don't think about issues that they face unless it either affects them or someone close to them

But i do believe they made some progress in this front. Not sure when we'll see the impact of this, but hopefully it's sooner than later

(this is just speculation on my part below)
Either way, if they hired an accessibility consultant right now, like many others in this thread suggested, the effect of their work would probably only really show months from now. Maybe earlier for minor stuff, but definitely not for major changes/features

[silk mountain]

That's definitely true. The only thing I was doing was explaining that they didn't start with just their life savings or whatever to make this game--they had tens of millions. I've just heard the misunderstanding that they're a bunch of starving artists and a small indie studio a bunch of times, and neither of those things are/were true. I'm glad you were aware of that already; many generally aren't, so I was just trying to set the record straight.

[chilly shale]

When judging the costs of the game it is important to keep perspective, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop
Here is at least some numbers but something to consider, MMOs cost more to make and run due to the heavy reliance on the game servers unlike the single player and local hosted games where the players take on most of the work to run the game.

[eternal skiff]

Oh you are absolutely right! They are NOT a small business.
They (upper management) do, on the other hand, use this fabricated, outdated image of a small biz that jumps to people's minds when hearing "indie studio", and allow themselves to mistreat their workers at the bottom of the foodchain like discussed previously.

I apologise for my initial tone, I had assumed you would be arguing they didn't need to make money at all, which has been heard and heard again here ever since I arrived, and I was mistaken.

I still do think that there are starving artists in the team. Because I don't expect the management to be fair, cus I haven't seen a single case of that ever in video game making history during the last 25 years I've been alive

[eternal skiff]

I hear ya.

I just must bring up that terminology like "wheelchair bound" is generally frowned upon, because it's reductive and the result of abled-centrism, ie, looking at it from the pov of an abled person, to whom the wheelchair represents the "tragedy" of disability, whereas wheelchair-users who are outspoken online explain that their mobility aid is their key to freedom, and not the symbol of their limitations.

I don't believe one second you had ill intents using this terminology and am simply bringing this up because it seems fit in this channel, being an advocate for disabled people's rights. It's just that it's part of the ableist vocabulary that abled people have woven around us, to the point it is very difficult for us to be listened to directly. It's one of the most pervasive phrases too, so real no blame.

Although you might have your personal reasons for using the terms, if you are yourself a wheelchair-user, in which case it is not up to me to police how to present your own situation.

I otherwise agree with your general point. I wish they would hire a disability consultant.

Looking back at my walltext it's kind of redundant, I hope it's still readable tho lol

[hoary heron]

Yup--learning opportunity, @lost obsidian ❤️ . Personally my wheelchair is less binding and far more liberating as it's a tool that helps me do more than I'd be able to without it. (Which is part of why it's so devastating when an airline destroys someone's wheelchair in transit--it's essentially breaking their legs)

[lost obsidian]

No worries. I understand and i'm sorry if that came out wrong. Looking at it from a different perspective it totally makes sense!

[static wolf]

I think one of the upsides of hiring a disability consultant (and announcing it), even if it'll still take months to implement the bulk of things, is that it shows a commitment to caring about accessibility issues. Additionally, having an accessibility consultant gives them an expert who can explain concerns with a feature before it goes live so S6 can be more proactive, vs. now where it feels more reactive (we the players have to experience problems, sometimes/often causing physical pain, and report it before they consider doing something. So I hope an accessibility consultant is a position they're considering + looking for, and I also hope they're able to find more CMs soon to help our current CMs out.

[lost obsidian]

I mean, case and point is right here

I used a terminology that makes sense to me. I looked at something from my point of view, which is practically the opposite of what people who are affected actually think

Without letting me know, i likely wouldn't have thought it through, as it isn't part of my everyday life. This is where specific experience plays a key part, as it can help people educate themselves on these issues and hopefully be more mindful of them when making decisions

[north mesa]

yeah I shared the job listing with several cms (asking them to please work on the game i like) who are looking for a change and it's unlikely any will even read it let alone apply because gaming is rough for cms

[chilly shale]

And of course the longer it takes to find new CMs the more the workload burns out the current ones and you hit the situation of losing them as fast as you gain them and never actually being able to build up to the number actually needed.

[cyan flame]

Just reading through the new news and...

Dragon Fireworks – Beat the drums around the market to unleash the fan-favorite fireworks show.
Photo-sensitive folks will be in for quite a ride once again, if S6 hasn't jotted those fireworks down a notch or two..

[static wolf]

I wish they would make a setting to disable fireworks on your own screen- that way they can have the big flashy ones for the festival, but photosensitive people + people who are otherwise averse to fireworks (bc of ptsd, for example) can turn them off.

That's one of the things I always felt bad about in the time before flare arrows when we used Phoenix fireworks- they were great for callouts but very flashy and loud

I hope (though highly doubt) they took notes on the problem of palcats being out during the chapaa chase and did something to address that

[radiant sun]

Yet another event Disabled players are gonna miss out on because the game is still inaccessible :/

[old vector]

i'm so sick of chappa chase there i said it

[quartz maple]

I like the lanters arrows but if thats flashy too then whats the point of this games inclusitivy tag if you keep throwing everything that's inclusive and not disabled friendly in it at every single turn

[north mesa]

hopefully the card game is equivalent to the chase for tickets/envelopes so it's a choice instead of having to do both to get all the things

[static wolf]

that's my hope too- also would be better because you can presumably play it at any time instead of just the five minutes after the hour

[warm jungle]

yeahhh I am very very tired of chapaa chase and it's only been in the one iteration so far

[eternal skiff]

Is "disabling bright lights and flashes and explosive, sudden loud noises such as fireworks for photosensitive people and people with auditory issues" part of the masterpost yet?
Like the one that's on a Google document?

@barren atlas ?

Also, may I please have editing rights on this document sometimes? If not, I'll copy paste it and rework it in order to classify it further, if that's alright with you.

I've studied how to "speak abled" in a bunch of ways, and I'd like to try something out.

[barren atlas]

will review when I'm home, but everyone with the link can comment which is something I just need to checkmark to have added

[woven knot]

I still want the chat box text to have a size picker, up to 18 or 20 pt. font.

I need that to read it. Otherwise I'm missing out on anything that requires grouping, like flow groves.

I gave up trying to unlock Subira because I can't get enough flow wood.

I am also blind in my right eye.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah, while it's important to share workarounds, accessibility tools existing should not be an excuse, Palia and video games in general need to put in the work and make themselves more playable for disabled people.

We shouldn't have to buy some gizmo to get to play and enjoy a F2P as much as abled people.

[eternal skiff]

I mean, coming back to this, some people won't have a choice because the hardware of a computer itself isn't 100% accessible, but in this case Palia doesn't even meet minimum requirement to be playable for visually impaired people, be it partial blindness or even miopyc people.

The Switch doesn't allow for Ui scaling, which makes it unusable in handheld mode for many people, and I don't remember if that option is even on the PC version and adapted.

[cyan flame]

As a PC player, I can tell that what lacks on Switch also lacks on PC.
In this case, no UI scaling anywhere, no matter what platform.

[eternal skiff]

Uh, my preceding message seems to have disappeared, strange.

So as I was saying, UI scaling not being there by default makes me think they either rushed or crunched the coding process and willingly overlooked that issue, in order to be faster and more efficient productivity wise.

And I'm afraid that going back to implement it retroactively would be complex, because of them overlooking it in the first place. It's often how it goes.

[cyan flame]

Yeahh. I remember talking to a friend, and we both agreed that "it looks like they copied the whole code from the 'Palia PC' folder and pasted it into the 'Palia Switch' folder."

[green kelp]

That is what S6 stated, "1:1 copy", but then multi-crafting broke on PC but still worked on Switch so 🤷

[eternal skiff]

Oof.

I'm worried that S6 crunched their teams or something, and one of the reasons why they're so slow to make changes is because of that initial choice.

Given the working conditions of other teams in this whole thing, I'm not confident.

This was the very first demand, second was about a colourblind mode. The fact nothing has been done or at least said about it is not okay.

[dusty rivet]

I'm gonna be real: I actually stopped playing after all the things that were requested but never added, and all the changes that were pushed which negatively affected many peoples' playstyles.

I don't see the point of an open beta if you won't even take feedback seriously except that a company is too cheap to pay bugtesters and wanted a bunch of randos to do it for free.

I forgot I was still in here...

If this game is still alive in a year, I'll check back in on it, lol.

[green kelp]

I stopped after getting hit with the achievement bug and learning how long it has been in game unfixed. Then they offer excuses about how hard it is to fix. Then they claim to have fixed it. Now, silence on the fact that it isn't fixed. If the investors don't step in and demand a management change, they deserve to lose their money.

[eternal skiff]

AAAA I'M SORRY I SOMEHOW FORGOT I WASN'T JUST QUOTING YOU BUT @'ING YOU
😭 Thanks for your feeback regardless, it's appreciated.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah, their most used stance when something doesn't work is radio silence, ghosting the playerbase and waiting for people to get tired of speaking up, it seems...

I'm upset about this!! Because this game has so much potential, it's trying to do something new, I'm in love with the writing! I can tell there are people who truly care about creating something good! But it doesn't seem like that energy is getting to us!

.... All my professional work is centered around accessibility and making sure institutions and industries make sure to adapt what they put out for as many people as possible.

Since I'm in no management position and pretty isolated (a disabled person doing social work is rare, one doing it out of the closet even more so) I rarely success as much as I believe should be the bare minimum, but I've still got years of experience behind me butting heads with people in charge and finding roundabout ways to make "special needs" heard.

I'm frustrated about this, feels like I should be doing more.

[dusty rivet]

whatever you've done for people is already life-changing in ways you'll probably never know, social work is incredibly invaluable.
going back to my hiatus now I just wanted to say that.

[eternal skiff]

Well I'm still thinking there could be ways to be heard...

[old vector]

not to mention the whole "it's just a visual bug" thing to empower ppl who gaslight ab how much of an impact it makes on play 🫠

[green kelp]

It is sad that the apologists have said more about the bug than S6 ever has, even if it was wrong.

[static wolf]

yes, there are so many "visual bugs" that i've gone out of my way to submit in bug reports and feedback forms because they're genuine accessibility issues

"haha silly visual bug, you have no way to track your progress in-game unless you had a spreadsheet set up before you got hit with the glitch"

"oopsies when you try to reject a friend request it comes back when you go to a different zone and puts an exclamation point on the social tab icon, no worries, it's not like that makes it unusable or triggering for players with anxiety at all"

"whoops, little bug, sometimes icons in villager chats are greyed out/appear to be non-interactable when they are in fact active, hope nobody wanted a clear sign of when they could ask a villager for their weekly wants. they can all just remember if they asked the villager yet of course!"

etc etc

[chilly shale]

Well, they decided to toss a new romance and a Maji market distraction at players, be amusing if bugs in the patch break that content too. I am hoping that the end of the event having a solid date of Feb 27 means that will be the release date of the bug fix patch they said they were working on next since they seem to be waiting for patches to toggle holiday stuff. That patch should reveal what they consider the most important bugs to work on in the game and should be a good indication of how things will be going in at least the short term of the game and if it will be worth continuing or should be tossed on the shelf to check on later.

[green kelp]

Yeah, the update cadence change seems to indicate they didn't have as much content backlog as had been insinuated unless they counted transcriptions of brainstorming sessions as content. The "bug fix patch" "that of course will also have more content" seems like business as usual, to me. I have zero hope that any changes will affect my recommendation about the game.

[chilly shale]

Part of the problem is they seem to be looking at the patches they way they would be done for a fully released product, where frequent updates irritate people with the delays and making each one big with exciting features is better. In beta the whole point is smaller frequent patches for things as they crop up. Seeing a patch to download every day when you start it up should be normal. It doesn't need to have new content, a few minutes patching with the patch notes being "Fixed typos in quest 'x' and terrain adjustments in location 'y'" should be the sort of thing we are seeing.

[green kelp]

They really butchered the whole alpha/beta/release schedule. Everything they are doing screams closed beta, to me (except for the still broken major systems like achievements/request which screams alpha). Open beta has been tidying up and stressing server architecture.

And accessibility should have been considered and work started in alpha. As it is, it is still on the to-do list (maybe).

[chilly shale]

Parts of it certainly needed to be taken into consideration in the design phase of things. The post release window they mentioned planning to do the bulk of the work on it will probably not go well. Barring adding a secondary route to completion for a number of the game activities I don't see how they can expect to make effective changes without ripping out a chunk of content.

I could see more teamwork focused routes to bypass some of the difficulties, but that would seriously hamper anyone that plays predominately solo.

[hoary heron]

The amount of content isn't changing; they're delivering it on a slower cadence so that said content hopefully comes out more fully-baked. And also to stop burning out their devs. (They haven't overtly stated that the devs were getting burnt out, but like--that schedule, the layoffs within S6, and the overall climate in the games industry from 2023 that seems to be escalating massively in 2024 is an enormous morale-hit as well)

Yes, accessibility should have been included in a much more informed fashion than it did, much earlier than it did. There's a lot they need to fix for accessibility in the game, as we've detailed here, in feedback forms, and the pinned documents. For change to happen in the game, change needs to happen in S6 itself, and everything we've put forth to them helps. Every bit of data, every bit of feedback, helps arm those within the org who are already listening and fight for us to be better understood and supported. I know it's frustrating, I know it's exhausting, and even if you never write another piece of feedback ever again--thank you all for what you've shared--seeing the results is painfully slow, but you really have been opening people's eyes, even if it's one at a time.

[sand tide]

I too have basically stopped playing a game I had grown to love due to accessibility issues, hopefully it is all taken onboard and fixed so everyone who has given up on game does return. That said I won’t really be playing Palia much other, I will check in now and again in hopes it’s fixed and everyone with a disability of any kind can participate, until then I will keep telling friends who ask me if it’s worthwhile downloading not to bother

[sand tide]

By fact all the Christmas decorations, snow etc is still up I know it’s going to take a long time before myself and many others can play, very sad because this game had so much potential and now people are being turned off it . Please listen to your player base and take faults etc onboard and make accessibility issues a high focus , this should have been one of the first issues addressed to enable everyone to play with no discrimination

[eternal skiff]

I've been working on the side on a Google form that I'd like to share around in the playerbase, as a survey of sorts. It would be a way to gather feedback from disabled people specifically, and while it would have no official nor scientific value because I can't have it peer reviewed and controlled like a proper survey, I'm also thinking of doing it on social media in such a way it'd (maybe) get Palia's attention in a way that'd give them incentive to react.
Because I plan to make the results of this survey public if there's enough. Of course, it would be completely anonymous.

I know it might be a waste of time, and I understand everyone that has no more patience for it. Tbh your input would also be appreciated, I'll ensure to include people who stopped playing because of how inaccessible the game is.

[old vector]

i would love to take part in this!

[north mesa]

The season/holiday changes on Tuesday from winter lights(Christmas) to Luna new year, so the snow in kilima will probably go away then too

[old vector]

it's more the principal of the christmas stuff staying up so long means that changes in the game dont get implemented all too frequently

[north mesa]

I was assuming it was about the issue folks have with the effects on the snow(reduced animation & flash settings where are you). 2023 it was every 2 weeks and 2024 will be monthly, but the holiday code freeze just ended so there weren't any changes during that time - you'll notice that a bunch of your phone apps didn't update from mid December to mid January too as holiday/year end freezes are a standard practice

[old vector]

but its very true that accessibility issues havent been prioritized and the team moves slowly on Those sorts of issues

[cyan flame]

The word "survey" always tickles my ND brain just right, and that goes double when it's a survey on things that may touch me on a personal level.
If you'll ever carry this plan out, I'll be definitely in.

[hoary heron]

Once you've gathered and aggregated your data, I'd love to do whatever I can within my role to help elevate those results to S6

[eternal skiff]

That's a kind offer. But jsyk it will express discontentment pretty openly from my own description of it so I don't want you in trouble as a Shepp, even if that's not a paid job.

[eternal skiff]

I'm glad to hear that, it's definitely motivating!

[hoary heron]

Hey--if we only listen to praises, we don't see the full picture. As a Shepp, there's no expectation for me to just be a positive cheerleader, nor am I expected to defend S6, and I have definitely given feedback that is Not Happy ™️

And if I were to be ejected from the Shepp program for sharing the data of discontentment you've collected with them (which I honestly 100% doubt that they would do that), then I don't think the program or S6 would be worth respecting. But they have been very clear in supporting me in my sweetness AND in my salt, so my faith in that still holds.

[lost obsidian]

I can back that up. I've been very vocal about my issues with the game as well, but i'm still here

[eternal skiff]

I am very relieved to hear that, @lost obsidian as well.
I've made progress on the survey, unless something especially spoon-expensive comes up, I'm thinking it could be ready for publication by the end of February at the very least.

Do you mind if I use this and cite it in the survey? I will need to reference it and base my work on it regardless. My DMs are open in case you have a question.

[barren atlas]

You're absolutely welcome to

[wispy iron]

Open for all types of disability, or are you looking for a specific demografic? 🙂

I wouldn't mind taking the survey.. qué the neurodivergent thing with survey's 😅

[eternal skiff]

Open for all, and based on self-identification.

[wispy iron]

If you need more people, I'm in 😁

[eternal skiff]

Honestly I'll need as many people as possible for it to be useful, a survey needs a minimum of a hundred replies to become noteworthy, on average.

Which is why I also encourage abled Palia players and disabled players who never played Palia to participate. That way I can cross data more efficiently. Think of a Venn diagram, and that should come out like that.

[wispy iron]

I would love to participate!

I read the list from Yohannes, and I have a couple things I struggle with that's not there 🙂 I love this game, but because of disability, I'm only able to play for an hour max, before I have to stop. While I can spend hours on end in other games without issues 🤷🏼‍♀️

[eternal skiff]

I have a fair amount of followers on Twitter, friends who are willing to help out, numerous contacts with disabled gamers, including some small famous content creators, and I'll @ the official accounts about it too in hope that they share it too.

I'll try on Tumblr too, I haven't looked yet if the fandom is active on it.

I'll of course post it here and in #💬│palia-discussions too.

[wispy iron]

Is there a way to get a ping when you post it?

Spoons are low atm, so I'm not able to pay close enough attention I think

[eternal skiff]

I'm making the survey so you can both check boxes, and write small answers to specify things if you feel the need. It'll make it longer to complete, but provide more freedom of expression and overall better data quality.

[wispy iron]

I love that!!

[eternal skiff]

Well I've been thinking people who are very involved in this channel could have an @? @hoary heron @lost obsidian can we do that? Like, in respect of the Discord's guidelines?

[wispy iron]

If we could get a specific @ for this, that we can choose in roles? That would be amazing!

[eternal skiff]

using the ♿ emoji could be an easy and relatively representative "name" for it, imo

[eternal skiff]

Are you okay with me DMing you in case I need some help reading your document? Knowing myself I'll want to double-check how well I understand it.

[barren atlas]

Sure thing

[lost obsidian]

That would likely involve setting up a new role, which would need to go through a bunch of approval rounds. Maybe that could be a thing when the next set of discord updates happen, but with the CMs time being super limited, i can't even give you an ETA for that

As for specifically us, we don't have any higher permissions than regular users, so we can't ping here/everyone either

So my best idea for now would be to post it around when they ping game news and/or release patches. Lots of people check in around those times, which would definitely help with traffic

[eternal skiff]

I see. Then for now I think I should write down who to contact about this. Please emoji react once if you want to be @'d or DMed when I publish it!

[lost obsidian]

(for pinging, i believe you can ping 3-4 people in a single message before automod bonks you, just fyi )

[wispy iron]

I have a question, my biggest issue right now is motion sickness. I'm unwell after just one round on my crops, and I have to skip that if I want to play for more than 10min😅

I've adjusted the settings as best as I can, does anyone have any suggestions on a fix for this? I really hope they come up with a better motion sickness fix, cause the cross above my head is alright, but it doesn't work 😅

I have some inner ear issues, and I have days where its alright to play a bit, but most days i can join for one round of ft grove, and speak to my boy Einar, then i just have to quit. And that kinda sucks 😞

Omg the way the ADHD one million thoughts at a time shows in that message 🤦🏼‍♀️🤣

[eternal skiff]

I don't have this issue and sadly don't know any fix but I know it has been discussed previously, you should be able to dig up that conversation by looking up the right keywords in this channel.

[wispy iron]

Oh! Didn't think about searching! I'll do that now!

[hoary heron]

Is there a particular part about crop-tending that is a motion-sickness trigger for you? (e.g. is it the sparkles of ready-crops, the spinning that often occurs when tilling, the flash of red when a square has been fully tilled, etc.?)

[wispy iron]

To be honest i haven't quite figured out what it is. I think a combination of all the things. I've been talking with my husband, and we're trying to trouble shoot.

I used to be able to play Warframe for hours and hours, then they changed where the frame was in the screen, and I had to quit, bc i got dizzy. Now I can't even go around in my "plane".

I can't fish either, and running around is alright as long as I try to run in as straight a line as possible.

I don't know, I didn't use to have these issues, the dizzy spells are new to me from the last few years. So I haven't quite figured out what ticks me off yet. (Well, the kids let me know when dr.strange is on the TV, and makes sure I go do something else, cause they want to watch it without me looking green) 😅

Also, everything that is "spinning"/ looking/going around. Is dizzying

[eternal skiff]

!!! I compare Warframe and Palia a lot so I think I see what you mean

It's probably messing with your proprioception ability, and inner ear, yeah, because the movement feels "off". It might be because of the walking cycle, other people have said ever since it changed, it bothered them more.

Also, on Warframe, have you tried hitting the key that changes your pov behind your Warframe?

[wispy iron]

You do??!!! Finally someone other than me! 😅

Yeah it's definitely worse with the new running/walking thing!

And yes, my husband and friend group tried everything so I could continue playing with them. But it didn't help😞

You used to be able to center the frame. But ever since they changed that, it's slightly off center.

I've always struggled with my ears, and I have accumulated a few inner ear problems the last few years, and now everything that can possibly trigger it, does

[eternal skiff]

Aw f*ck, that's a shame... I had issues starting to play again after taking a long break, had to diminish the aim sensitivity and turn off the motion blur entirely.

Do you have any idea why your inner ear seems to be getting "worse"? I know that EDS can cause that, and it often correlates with adhd or autism

[wispy iron]

Yeah, the blurring is bad for me!

No, I've been to the ear specialist, and they can't figure out what's happening. I have an MRI scheduled end of February, and I hope they can figure out something there.

My eardrum vanished, on both sides, I lost hearing in one ear, and got serious dizzy spells, first they thought it was an infection, it wasn't, then they thought crystals, but no. Now I'm being pushed to get hearing aids, and the specialist is saying that if they don't find anything on the MRI, then they don't know what to do with me 🤷🏼‍♀️😅

(Tmi, info dump)

I have thought about getting a screening for Eds, I do have both hypermobile joint, fibro, tummy issues and a ton of other things, so its plausible.

[eternal skiff]

I hate it when doctors act like that, as if they don't have an entire network and academical database at their disposal... The moment they can't individually heal or help someone they act like it's a lost cause. Plus the pushing to get the aids that forces no abled to make efforts, of course.

EDS also affects hearing https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27253074/

[wispy iron]

Wow! Thank you!

I'm printing that to put in my "do I have eds" binder!

I'm trying to accumulate enough information to be able to convince them of testing me for it. This one helps!

[eternal skiff]

In that case you might prefer other sources over PubMed, but looking deeper into it would help. Since EDS is a condition that affects the muscle tissues, skin too, the more usual, by default screening can miss its signs, and doctors lack training in catching it too

[wispy iron]

And yes! I'm pissed off at them not trying harder to figure out what's going on.

But I haven't been able to push harder, bc of a nerve damage that happened this summer during a wisdom tooth removal.

If you have anywhere you recommend looking? Other than PubMed?

Thank you so much for all of this! Truly!

I won't be able to respond for a while, but I'll be back later!

[eternal skiff]

And if you want to get the official dx, depending on where you live, country wise or in general, you might want to reach out to an organisation by and for disabled people to help you in finding safe medical practicionneers, so you are spared the pain of dismissal over and over while trying to get answers.

[eternal skiff]

OOF I feel you, I had a similar issue albeit much weaker when I had mine removed; tooth issues are no jokes when we're Audhd, one or the other.

Sadly I am French and not very knowledgeable of the resources that can help you better in your own geographical situation, especially since I don't know where you live. Please don't tell me in details, btw, but if I know your country/state I might be able to find something. I just know that a lot of American doctors are prejudiced against PubMed and their patients bringing it up, because it bruises their pride or some nonsense. Some UK ones too, but less, apparently. I obtained this knowledge from disabled militants in US centric groups.
The PubMed source is still worth keeping for a lack of a better alternative.

[hoary heron]

If your doctor doesn't respect your medical history/research binder, then that's not the doctor for you. (Though here in the States we're often still pretty limited on our options.)

[eternal skiff]

I agree but finding the right doctor quickly gets discouraging, especially the further you are from social norms. This was an off topic tangeant but I'm glad I could help a lil. If you want @wispy iron you can DM for some more info, but I can't guarantee results and I have a pretty tight schedule.

[hoary heron]

Oh absolutely--I hate having to find a new doctor and that's with a diagnosis. I was exceptionally lucky that I was able to get Dx'd within just two doctors. Most folks with my condition typically go through 5-10 before they get one. I just happened to get referred to a doctor that had been studying the disorder that I have, and he was able to discern it with one round of testing.

[wispy iron]

Sorry for the short answer;

Thank you so much, I'm in the middle to north of Norway and in a small municipality.

I would appreciate any help you can offer, but at the same time, I know you said you where a bit off on spoons, so I don't want to cause you any harm in doing so❤️

[eternal skiff]

I don't speak a iota of whichever language is Norway's (Norvegian I believe?) But I found out about this organisation?

You ought to double-check if it's a business or a genuine non-lucrative organisation, just to be sure it's not some sort of MLM scam deal preying on vulnerable people, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

I couldn't find more due to the language barrier.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.atlas-alliansen.no/en/inclusion&ved=2ahUKEwjw8tvrjoWEAxXmU6QEHY5HDdAQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1AYy8R3qTXLx7osG3R92Uv

[radiant sun]

Another patch, no mention of accessibility. Exhausting

[green kelp]

It would be laughable, if not so sad.

[radiant sun]

Especially when literally all we've begged for is basically scraps at this point. We've been so transparent about how we just want to be shown that they are listening and they can't even do that

[static wolf]

Right, and I feel like it would've been easy. They already have air temple issues under "top known issues"- they could've said "we are also aware of some non-bug issues with air temple completion due to motion sickness and other accessibility issues, and are working to create solutions" -- but it feels like they aren't actually working on it

[ember umbra]

Ok this is an od One… as dyslexia and non english things like patch notes for games are often so Long written that my brain shut Down (cant read and understand) for sims I tend to Watch YouTube-video but it be so cool if companies did their Own vidio of the notes or had a simplyfied list. If I get that help first I Can esier read the real One after.

[deft cliff]

Yesssss! Hard agree!

[ember umbra]

Would it just be the coolest most helpfull thing as they releas the note atach is a vidio of Them Reading/talking about note… not Long just get the points acros.
If the WANT to be creativ they could make it look like a palian speaking (have a carecter for that) like a sort of vtuber thing

And on that note any One have a recap of todays note for me

[deft cliff]

Omg you could make a 4th wall character like Deadpool. They know they’re in a game, so they read patch notes.

[ember umbra]

Dont know what 4th Wall is but Yea they could make a caracter even if not in game then just in style

[eternal skiff]

Zeki would fit so well

[deft cliff]

Bok Choy - Cabbage
New forage ables

New limited time map

• eat all food
  -catch all chappa

New roof colours
New wallpaper

⭐️ gems can be placed on houses plots

New outfits

Air Temple Last reward fixed

$$ bugs fixed

[ember umbra]

Or a like Old time news with trompet guy/gall ridding in
Maybe even use the sign in front city hall click it and they rid in (vidio clip start) if any news

[fair willow]

There's also a new currency for the Luna New Year. Chapaa Chase tickets are stored, but not applicable this time? That's how I read it anyway.

[ember umbra]

Thank you MAYBE I Can then get the last extra eggs …

The One on top a windmill i couldnt get close enoug…. So I have 2 extra egg i might try get the rest if it truly fixed even though very hard

If they just made a list like @deft cliff did or a very short vidio that would have done it and it would show they care.
Glad I have time to read in this game (fond settings would help)

[silk mountain]

You may want to spoiler tag these in the future. Some people don't read the patch notes because they like to be surprised 😊

[deft cliff]

The full quest isn’t fixed, just the last reward people weren’t getting.

[ember umbra]

Oh i did the quest (not sure if i Got reward as i schould) its the bonus eggs I gave up on… i did have to reloade the game 2 times as I Got stuck (in Walls) but i complteede it

Cost a lot of spoons not acesibel quest need work around alternativ route something

[hoary heron]

The 4th Wall is a storytelling concept. When you're watching a scene in say, a room, there's the background wall, the left wall, and the right wall. The 4th wall is transparent to us, the viewer, allowing us to perceive what is happening in the scene/story.

A character who breaks the 4th wall is one who, even for just a moment, understands that there is an audience behind that 4th wall and communicates directly with them or pulls information they wouldn't otherwise have.

Deadpool is notorious for knowing that he's in a comic book/film/etc. so he constantly chitchats with the audience or asks questions that confuse the characters he's interacting with.

[deft cliff]

Omg thank you for that

[ember umbra]

Oh cool yes they could do that but dont need be in game (though using news board infront cityhall be perfect)

Acesability have many solutions and many is Nice for all players… as choices are good

[hoary heron]

I think they're a bit limited on people to make a little video like that right now, but I think it's a great idea--Final Fantasy XIV does something similar (though it's usually in Japanese). I'll raise that to the CM team--perhaps that is something they could consider doing once they're fully staffed again.

[deft cliff]

There’s also Pictory and/or HeyGen! You can have Ai make the videos for you. You bop in the words and it does all the work.

[quartz maple]

Anyone else upset how accessibility has once again not been talked about in the patch notes?

[hoary heron]

Yeah--I'm raising that point to them too, TWE

[quartz maple]

I'm hoping the management is fired st some point

[deft cliff]

We need them!

[wispy iron]

Thank you so much! I'll look into it 🙌❤️

[quartz maple]

The management is messing everything up rn... They're dragging s6 down with em and will keep doing so.

The glass door reviews will really open ur eyes to how awful the management is at s6

[hoary heron]

Note: this is not a defense of S6, just a caveat on Glassdoor--with any org, take the Glassdoor reviews with a grain of salt/sugar. Despite how they market themselves, it isn't exactly a reliable tool for information about a company and how it operates. Oftentimes what is shown there is disproportionate to how things actually are. There's also not usually much motivation for someone who is happy with the company to write a Glassdoor review.

(That being said, yeah--definitely raises some eyebrows and makes me want to put a protective blanket around the CMs we have left)

[deft cliff]

I’m reading them and, I mean for 100k a year you can call me anything you like. Lmfao

And it’s remote?? Where are the employees coming from?? Google??

[ember umbra]

@hoary heron Yea if they to limit I get it (then a short point lidt be fine) and its not like places like EA do it… its a general thi g I wish companies did … something about patch note for is with dyslexia (many options)

[hoary heron]

I have raised both suggestions--hopefully they'll be able to work something out.

[ember umbra]

Thank you hopeing for something

[static wolf]

hopefully they'll have some answers they're able to share. if they're able to say, an announcement/statement on whether the next patch (which they said would be focused primarily on fixing bugs) will also have some accessibility fixes included would be really nice. though I understand CMs aren't always able to share things.

[static wolf]

this might be a silly suggestion (and I definitely think s6 should still work to make patch notes more accessible), but have you ever tried the OpenDyslexic extension?

I'm not dyslexic, but I have double vision + trouble reading on my computer sometimes (particularly when I forget/lose my glasses), and the font it uses was specifically designed to help with common symptoms of dyslexia.

one nice thing about the patch notes this time around that I think makes them more accessible is the table of contents with jump-to links: makes it easier to find things. Maybe they could also add a subcontents to the table of contents (idk if that's the right word) where you could expand out (have them hidden by default for the sake of people trying to avoid spoilers) the headers within each content (so like for this patch, under new content, one of those would be the maji market). IDK if I'm explaining that well, I have to go to class but I'll try to find an example of what I mean later.

[zinc silo]

Is there anything on the s6 team considering making PS4 controllers compatible with PC sometime in the future? As a left-hander (who uses the mouse with my left hand), the keyboard controls are really difficult to work with. Palia doesn't sense my PS4 controller

[hoary heron]

I believe controller support, especially on PC, is still under development--if you haven't already, definitely submit that through official feedback (or possibly even as a bug). I'll call it out through the CMs, but being able to go directly through player support (links for feedback and bugs/support in the pins) would also help get it in front of the devs.

[zinc silo]

Thank you, I was wondering where to submit that question/feedback! This helps so much.

[ember umbra]

@static wolf no we didnt get that sort of stuff in School and no help to set up and stuff Im to Old for that… Also free systems in general dont work with danish either… i would need help set up and thats not given unless very dyslexia and born after 2000 or so… so Yea I tried ones but getting any halp as adult is very limited in DK
Public sites usally not acesibel either

[hoary heron]

That's a good point--I personally really like the OpenDyslexic font; it's helpful to me, but I don't know if it has all the characters needed for other languages, even those that primarily used Romanized text. Time for me to do some investigating...

Confirmed--at present, the OpenDyslexic font only supports the 26 letters of the English alphabet, numerals, and basic punctuation:

[ember umbra]

Oh you talking the fond that have Big + small letters? Thought it was a program… i seen that text dont really do it for me just confusing
I still Think more games could have it as text option

[ember umbra]

So no æøå if it worked for me i be

[static wolf]

that's unfortunate, I hope it's developed for other languages as well

[hoary heron]

That's fair--it doesn't always work for everyone. I believe Admiralsky was referencing a plugin/extension for your web browser that converts text on the webpage to this font. Other fonts that are supposed to be more readable for those with Dyslexia are Arial and Comic Sans, but as with anything accessibility, what works for some doesn't necessarily work for all--they're just options. ❤️

[static wolf]

yeah, I have it as an extension for my browser, but definitely agree that what works for some doesn't work for all- that's why there are things like light and dark mode on discord (and other apps)

[ember umbra]

Oh interesting Yea i like Them and chalkboard i Think its called… Also a game had a Nice look handwritten letters but you could change it to Maybe Ariel? Any Way it help so much.
Back to many ways, make settings SHOW you care

[ember umbra]

Exsactly Im in light mod purly becouse Reading light text on Dark back background… for some reason not when watching twitch… Maybe becouse i focus on the stream not chat?

[warm grove]

It's a great font, honestly; it has helped me. For me, i've actually found Comic Sans to be helpful. There's other dyslexic-type fonts out there, too. I can't recall them by name atm, though!

(Which makes me think it'd be neat if Palia would let you change fonts in-game.)

[static wolf]

yes I've submitted changeable fonts so many times

[ember umbra]

Yes i Think any game that need Reading schould let you Pick between 2 or more font and stuff to help

[eternal skiff]

It's true it's unrealistic to expect anytime soon given the understaffing issue but tbh it doesn't need to be a video, could be an animatic like some omakes in anime (HunteX Hunter 2011 has good ones), or maybe it's easier to do with a 3D model, idk.

[eternal skiff]

Glassdoor review? Can anyone catch me up to speed about this, is there a link?

[ember umbra]

It could be Reading and a pictures of the game… or just timelapse of a wiuv from some where

[eternal skiff]

I'm wondering if Palia works with any controller at all on PC, I couldn't use my Switch one either.

That question is directly linked with my concerns on accessibility too, Palia seems to really lack flexibility in the technical aspect, ie code and software development

[hoary heron]

Mine worked--I have a 3rd Party wireless PS3 controller that I use, plugs in via a USB dongle. Vexy was also able to test controller support in the game using an XBox controller. So there's some, but I think feedback on which ones we're trying to use that aren't working is extra important.

[static wolf]

it works with my xbox controller fortunately

[eternal skiff]

It might be an issue with specific hardware pieces tbh but so far I just don't know if the game can claim supporting controllers, that's usually something that comes up in patch notes during an open beta, right? Unless I missed it.

Now it's possible that Xbox ones would work ig?

[hoary heron]

I believe controller support is still listed as a work in progress.

[eternal skiff]

Aaah so it could be used as an opportunity to hit two goals at once, because button mapping is a key accessibility tool. And using a keyboard can take a toll on energy for people with praxia disorders.

I'm not surprised Microsoft issued controllers work, maybe it just doesn't work with Playstation and Nintendo ones because they're not "neutral" enough. I vaguely remember a much more tech literate friend of mine mention smth about that

[quartz maple]

i wish theyd list everything in their patch notes. i only just noticed they added a white line to numbers and the inventory font is a little bigger

[static wolf]

Me too- everything they change and fix and also all known issues. There were some incredibly big issues missing from their known issues list- does that mean they think those are fixed and I should submit another report? Or did they just decide it wasn't a top issue they wanted to highlight in this patch?

[hoary heron]

Mine's a Playstation controller though, but it's PS3 instead of PS4 or PS5. But yes, button mapping/re-binding has been highly requested and something they mentioned they were working on in a past blog, but it's not ready or in our hands yet.

[ember umbra]

I LOVE when games let you set the buttons its so good help
A case of little thing Big impackt (dont know if Big thing to code)

[eternal skiff]

You mentioned it was 3rd party, and that makes it different, because while compatible with Playstation consoles, it not being official means it doesn't have the "inprint"

At least that's what I'v been told

[hoary heron]

Fair point--I'd need to try connecting my old official ones to see if they work.

[eternal skiff]

It's just a hunch but it'd be helpful if we could round that up. I suspect the lack of feedback on that specific issue is what slows down controller support so much. I sadly can't test it much because I have no controllers to use for troubleshooting.

[cyan flame]

Idk if this is true as I'm not dyslexic myself: a while ago I've heard that none other than the font "Comic Sans" is of great help to dyslexic people, because all letters are shaped in a subtly unique way, making it easier to tell them apart or something?

[hoary heron]

Yup! That's part of its original intent, and why folks shouldn't make fun of it the way they often do

[cyan flame]

Just dropping an example, in case someone doesn't know yet how that font may look like.

[warm grove]

Yes! Cosmic Sands helps me a lot! And I have dyslexia!

[ember umbra]

I Think its very individual… i do find cronical sens and calkboard esier as they more drawings (I Think thats Why) yet still clear unlike some wana be cursive fancy Old handwritten

[cyan flame]

Yeahhh, some fonts seem to be made solely to have people say "da faq is this even...? "

[ember umbra]

Wonder if thats Why i Found trying caligraphy fun

And still I tried to read a teatry from Kalmar union in very Old hand writting and in latin becouse Why? Wasnt needed for my history paper could just read the translation in book but I wanted seee it my self dont Call dyslexia lazy we work hard on things and if tools there let us use it.
Maybe translating was prodpon writting as thats my worse 🤷🏼‍♀️ mom was good fought teacher to let me read cartoons to practis Sound words and just READ who cares what

Kalmar union 1397 … i was a nutty teen

[quaint kernel]

BLESS THEIR HEARTS they fixed it!! This was a suggestion I sent in (though I'm sure other people did too!) My colorblind butt isn't trying to do long division on the stack sell price anymore to figure out how many copper ore I have tears of joy

This was the first thing I noticed when I logged in, too, I'm so happy

[ember umbra]

Amazing the fond was so small and hard to read i did math… dont mind math but dont play to do math

[eternal skiff]

the general channel was really nice to talk about real issues in a constructive manner and we managed to mention accessibility but the bad faith clique came out of the woodwork and now it's just a mob bashing 🙃

[quaint kernel]

In storage/inventory the text was bigger, but the numbers were a dark grey/brown(?) color that blended right in whenever the number went over 1 or 2 digits

[eternal skiff]

OKAY THAT IS GOOD, a step in the right direction finally!!

[ember umbra]

That Channel move so fast, Also that sort of behavior need moderation in my opinion

[eternal skiff]

if mods stepped in they would get mass bashed too, those particular detractors make no difference between management and the workforce, they just lash out

[cyan flame]

Gurl, you and me both were nutty.
In elementary school I picked and read front to cover a book that was... not exactly for children: "The Day of the Bomb".

[ember umbra]

Maybe but it reflex on a enviroment…. So i still belive that bassing acesability needs need have consecuens or it show no care for the need from Company

[ember umbra]

We love nutty knowlegde hungry people…. My greates acomblicment is when I installed that in kids

[north mesa]

it is so much more readable

[ember umbra]

That and a belief in Them self, knowing to find knowlegd “judge” a surce …. And ask for help

[idle arch]

I came here to say this!!! Shout out to whoever implemented the change. You are my hero.

[zinc silo]

i really love this so much!

[zinc silo]

I had my old PS3 controller (not third party) so I plugged it in to see, it isn't compatible unfortunately! Palia doesn't sense it either

[ember umbra]

I just loaded my game and oh my dragon its amazing …

[eternal skiff]

I'm starting to suspect more and more that Palia just doesn't like Playstation and Nintendo controller gdgfgdg I know it can be a thing but understand none of the tech behind it sadly

[static wolf]

My guess is that it's related to Microsoft owning Xbox (since a lot of PC systems run on windows)

[zinc silo]

Yes, XBox controllers typically are the easiest for PC games to work since a lot of PCs run Windows which owns Xbox in the first place

that's why majority of video games will have Xbox controller button setups in their tutorials, which don't usually sync with the actual controller you're using

I'm going to try DS4 (a PC app that will fool games into thinking you're using an Xbox controller instead of whatever it is you're using) and see if that's a good workaround in the meantime for Palia, will report back if it works!

[static wolf]

I had heard someone earlier had luck getting joycons to work by involving steam in the process- not entirely sure how that works, but maybe when palia comes to steam that'll also help with controller support

[zinc silo]

steam has been particularly great at getting PS4 controllers to work with the games hosted on its platform, because it uses it's own converting process (? don't think this is the right word but I'm not a video game developer) when connecting a controller to it. Most PC games I play has no issues with PS4 controllers if it's through steam it's the ones that are off steam (like current PC Palia) that would have issues for me

[static wolf]

I think they added the game as a non-steam game on steam, so steam could make their controllers work

[zinc silo]

!!!!!! DS4 works! I can now play Palia using my PS4 controller! Highly recommend for those who have difficulty playing with keyboard

Read on DS4's website that they support nintendo controllers as well, so if anyone wants to play through nintendo joycons, can be a good option

[tropic compass]

OMG, thank you for making the numbers on inventory/storage items more readable! I could NEVER figure them out

[noble kelp]

Idk if they mean this in an accessibility way or not

Accessibility isn't even slightly mentioned otherwise

[quartz maple]

yeah they just outright refuse to talk about accessability

[eternal skiff]

it might be treated like "disabled" is by ableds

Which is saddening but not surprising. They treat the entire subject as taboo.

But on a better note I hadn't realised how much strain I was putting on myself to read the items logo/quantities before!!! I'm so happy about this krkrkr

[pastel mica]

That invo screenshot looks much better

[static wolf]

Speaking of unmentioned improvements- my achievements seem to be working again and I can request anything I've ever had again, which I think were both pretty big bugs that impacted accessibility.

Also smaller bug but huge win for my anxiety- you can reject friend requests and they go away!!

[hoary heron]

SO EXCITED for the friend request thing! I have been haunted by a pile of names for months

[north mesa]

my achievements seem to be better/fixed too

[static wolf]

me too- they even fixed the issue that arose with long names (at least, fixed for the long names I had on my list)

[north mesa]

the chat font seems to be much larger too

[noble kelp]

why are there sneaky improvements? why weren't those things added to the notes? it's weird

It makes me think that maybe some of the programmers did extra work and didn't report doing it in an effort to better the game at their expense?

[eternal skiff]

It's leaving too much up for interpretation

[polar grove]

I mean, TBH their patch notes were extremely limited. Not sure why they head that direction, but I am not going to think too deeply into it.

[eternal skiff]

I hate how opaque they are on those issues, that's not how you restore trust after making a mistake uuuuuurg You need to acknowledge faults in order to make amends properly, especially as a company in the video game industry right nooooow

[polar grove]

There is no way they had a patch update this big with that small of a total patch notes page. I am sure there are tons of small things. First thing I noticed when I logged in is the numbers on stacks are way easier to see, I was excited about that. I might have missed that in the notes.

[green kelp]

Possibly due to 4 of the 7 bug fixes listed in 0.174 not being fixed. They're not even sure anymore.

[north mesa]

they could bank some goodwill talking about things like the font changes, but I get why they didn't say anything about the achievements since it's not totally fixed and some people didn't see any improvements

The end of year layoffs and quitting could have hurt more doc/comms areas than just community too

[past fable]

A heads up, with the new patch, the dialogue options are a smaller font on the switch. It makes them very hard to read now. And chance this could be looked into?

[green kelp]

!feedback

[hardy vigil]

Feedback & Suggestions

Looking for where to share your game feedback & suggestions for Palia?

• To share feedback directly with the team: https://palia.info/feedback
• To discuss feedback with other players: #🦋│issues-discussions
• To read the latest Dev Updates: https://palia.com/news
• For bug reports, contact: https://support.palia.com

[polar grove]

I don't know if they even read this channel or if it's intended purpose is for us just to chat with each other about stuff related to accessibility .

[past fable]

Thank you. I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate the discord stuff.

[green kelp]

Unfortunately, the devs don't read this channel.

[past fable]

That's ironic of them. They ask for discussions of accessibility but then ignore the channel for it. Okay....

[north mesa]

discord, twitter, reddit, and such are not manageable feedback or support methods without some special software and staff to manage it, which this team learned after getting burried by more feedback than they could read let alone reply to or log

[warm grove]

We actually asked for this channel back because we had no proper place to discuss accessibility-related issues with each-other, and help provide workarounds for other people.

They don't look at any issue-discussion related channels, as far as I know. only tickets through their site/support feedback form.

[past fable]

I do appreciate the link to the feedback form. Here's hoping something comes out of it.

[green kelp]

Yeah, Najuma used to make regular reminder posts in here about the devs not reading the channel.

[torn cradle]

I'm glad, and all that they're taking some levels of accessibility in for players who have trouble seeing, and I'm sure the blinding numbers in storage are great for some, but I'm still baffled they don't have UI options to turn stuff on and off. I use dark mode on my apps for a reason

[static wolf]

Yes for sure- it shows they have the capability to change some things, and have multiple options that have been built in, so they should give us the ability to change it. The font in storage (which has now changed sizes and colors multiple times- sliders? ), when they changed the walking animation cycle, when they changed the tool wheel, etc

[ember umbra]

I Saw some One mentioning chapa csmping snd the marked… and I Think thats what I do… and honestly thats the only Way for me NOT to get dizzy and ill snd take part in the Hunt…. Its not only to get in front people do things like that… This person say it destry it for others… I still only go low middle of board if luck … if I dont do it I ho 0 and puke…
I wish people would Think about that when comrnting

[static wolf]

Yeah, "camping" is a valid strategy- tbh most people camp to some extent, I don't think it's morally superior to run around the spawn instead of standing still at it.

[green kelp]

Everyone camps, just from different distances.

[ember umbra]

Goes for any thing like fish spot or magic creatur.
Later this video mention mobility isus and stuff but she mad people Camp and say it destroy game

[ember umbra]

Exsactly Im sure all have a good spot for difrent things… Im just wtf over people complain we find Own ways of makeing game acesibel and dont see their double moral … it destroy it now I dont get 7 + becouse this camper Got 3
Lost a bit respect for that person i must admit.
Oh the mobility isue talk was just that irl 1 heart sign with hand is harder than an other… so not IN game acesability but the people WITH hand mobility isues might Exsactly BE who Camp to rest the hands

[static wolf]

I'm really curious why they took spawn rates back down after they buffed them at the end of the last market- when 200ish chapaas were spawning (instead of 100ish), the discussion about camping almost vanished

[ember umbra]

Well i might not even do chapa runds as end = restart switch I MIGHT to get achivments but I hope they fix it becouse Im not back at marked until it ends

Also more Sound and visuel effects = bigger need for toggels, … Sound on a glider i hope it wont be a Challenge for me if people use it

[ember umbra]

More chapas did Sound like good solution

[hoary heron]

I'm going to bed but wanted to share that the HotPot game might be a good accessible alternative to Chapaa Chase for farming the envelopes needed to buy stuff at the market.

[ember umbra]

It defently is for me… It is just the stamps I want especially if other rewards than envolups…. And I still Think it need fixing for switch that we Can do it with out game frezz as it ends
Also who say you wana do it for envolups Maybe I just wana hug a chapa

[eternal skiff]

Gonna use the renewed convo here to let y'all know about this initiative.

Even if it even ends up moot in order to make Palia better, it might serve for future reference in game making at a small scale, if enough people answer.

[ember umbra]

I know of a streamer that might be able to broad cast this to more as acesability is her focus (I gladly do it to though dont stream Palia but if its general I could put it up)

[cyan flame]

I think we might count two small, good news on the accessibility side:

• Cycling through the single inventory rows now comes with some sort of ticking noise (as sound cue); I'm hoh and could barely catch it during a moment of complete silence, so Idk if it was there already before or if it's been newly added with this patch.
• During the card game at the Maji market, I noticed that the chat size was automatically upscaled. I'm taking a very cautious guess here, and say that maybe the devs are seizing this opportunity to test out at least the chat upscaling/resizing we all have been asking since quite a while. Unless it was accidentally upscaled due to a visual bug.

[chilly shale]

If that chat wasn't a bug it certainly needs more work. The names filled the whole thing and the message would be shoved off screen. Considering they already appear in the social menu, it would be nice if that upscaled chat showed the player portrait of each person sending a message instead, then had a mouseover tooltip to give us the full name. Would leave more of the actual message visible.

[hoary heron]

Totally valid! I have a number of screenshots I took showing NPCs the chapaa in my hands last time Maji Market was here

[unkempt hatch]

This right here!! They fixed the camping and waiting by increasing the spawn rates and it really felt like 'a chapaa chase'. The feel of it being all of us trying our best to catch those naughty escaped chapaas and get them back into the pen was so fun! This time feels like they have reduced them again and I hope it isn't for the purpose of increasing as the time goes on instead of keeping it consistent from the start.

I absolutely loved the combo of the frantic music combined with chapaas all over the place - it literally makes me feel laughter inside by how funny and cute they are! GOTTA CATCH THEM ALL...THEY'RE ESCAPING!!! 😂

[eternal skiff]

Honestly why not, if they're up to it. But I don't want to bring too much attention all at once to it either

In order to produce a good survey I asked around a few friends who'd know some stuff about this subject

“the first thing I would think of that is not like, turning head bobbing off or something, would be settings in games that remove the requirement to press down the thumbsticks for people who don't have the strength to do that

also stuff like disabling timers on QTEs which I know is just a setting to make it easier but it helps disabled people too

also very simple things like being able to switch from a hold-action to a toggle-action so that you don't have to hold down buttons”

About motion sickness
“turning off screen shake and head bobbing are often used to reduce motion sickness, motion blur as well”
dev friend who’s also neurodivergent

“Button mapping, meaning being given the possibility to remap said buttons

Colour options, meaning adjusting luminosity, colourblind mode”
Disabled gamer friend

“Difficulty settings”
“Subtitles”

That's what comes up the most, and some ideas are especially well written so I'll quote them directly

It also confirms previous ideas we had, so I think I got enough material to really start with questions.

[ember umbra]

Oh havnt done that just enjoyed watchingvthe little guys.
But Im Way better and find the pot game fun…. And then the gane list my Golden reward 😭 really here I relativly easy and Quick get a achivment and you loos it

[ember umbra]

Me to just cant do it to Wild my self but its Also fun to Watch … witch ALSO = stand still and Camp and if I do that Why not Pick 1-2 up and get points (even if I need close game after)

[ember umbra]

Well if you want it day it… and I ask her … not like I know her close but we talked on Twitter now and then.

[ember umbra]

Rember Sound settings and Reading (sight and dyslexia)
And alternativ routes for things that ate demanding
In game help goal lists (memory isuses)

[eternal skiff]

I have those in mind as well but no concrete examples of possible solutions, at least none that come to me rn

As for goal lists, we have quests already that should serve this purpose, so if we could find what to tweak and make better exactly that'd be good

[cyan flame]

They probably brought the spawn back down for two reasons: the first being the additional mini-game; even if you lose(n't) at the card game, you still get more envelopes than "losing" at chapaa chase. I managed to play two rounds of the new game and walked out with 780 envelopes on my first try and 600 on my second, both times without "winning". While with chapaa chase I got slightly over 160 envelopes in that single run.

Second reason I could think of is that, when Maji market first released, devs had to do a quick tweak at how the mini game worked, because back then everyone was automatically dumped on US servers, being the only one available.
Inevitably, players from different regions were cursed with ping and lag and could barely catch those critters themselves, or even not catch them at all. But now there are more servers and, unless someone were logged in with a VPN, everyone is in their own region or the closest one to their geographical area (US, EU and Asia), which should mean less ping & lag, therefore more chances for everyone to catch the chapaa.

[pastel mica]

I'm glad there are more options than just chappa chase this time. Hopefully I'm out of the hospital before the end of the event so I can try them. 😮

[hoary heron]

For goal lists, the quest log helps a little with this, but it needs to be expanded. The Journal/Quest Log in FFXIV has more context to help you remember what you're doing. And when you're doing quests where you gather tidbits of information that you need to spout off later, they will commonly give you a little scrap of "paper" in your quest items that when moused over has the key point of info you gathered. This is one of the many current struggles in the Temple of Gales questline.

[silk mountain]

Not just temple of gales, but all over the place. I regularly have trouble dealing with their quests, whether it's lack of actual helpful information, inability to reread information that was granted to me, and straight up false information.

I don't have the same physical limitations as many of the people here, but this is the one area where Palia really fails to help me out and it's made me quit playing for the day more than once.

I'm happy to go into much further detail if that would help (including providing solutions) as this actually falls within my field. Anyone is welcome to DM me if you'd rather go into detail elsewhere.

[ember umbra]

well more sliders especially wind/water need owen as their sound can be stressing yet you still want other ambient and que sounds

And for goals also things like Vaults need be on as quests.

[silk mountain]

yeah the bundles definitely need to have some kind of way to reference them outside of the temple of night. An achievement with some renown would be a real simple way to implement that with systems already built into the game.

[hoary heron]

Oh absolutely--it's just a very recent example that's still very fresh in my mind XD

[warm grove]

Also, having your own journal within the game to make your own notes would be so helpful. Would help everyone. Esp cuz it could be like a todo list that someone makes, or something

[pastel mica]

Even a tab in the character menu that displays the same temple screen could work.

I still would like a separate fish / bug list ala AC just to have a central spot to read descriptions and stuff too

[north mesa]

i wish we could pin any task as a "quest" - getting recipe ingredients, wants & loves, bundles

[silk mountain]

Yes! Just like in the Horizon games. So helpful.

[eternal skiff]

They could take inspiration from what Stardew Valley does imo, including a small icon to click in main inventory to access the whole thing.

@warm grove the journal idea I can't agree about tho, that's something that would be more difficult to implement and would take up server space when it is easily doable on the player's part with any other tool. It also would be pretty much unusable for Switch players.

It can't be a tool that relies on writing, it'd need to be more intuitive and inclusive, so it's useful for as many people as possible.
Now, as a mod, it would be very cool. If only they allowed mods or clarified their rules on that. Imo they should.

But being able to mark/tick Maji's wishes as quests that appear in the UI in game would be worth it imo, yeah.

[radiant sun]

Hard agree about the quests logs being unhelpful as they currently are.

I've always thought it was weird that when playing Palia I had to constantly open google to look up how to do quests because they're unclear. Meanwhile games like ESO which have objectively more complex and often longer quests I've never had to do that, it's odd.

[silk mountain]

It really is! Especially when most games just copy+paste what the NPC said to you so you can reference it again. Even just adding that would be a huge step up

[eternal skiff]

Can you specify what you mean about the sound in the temples please?

@radiant sun it's nôt that weird imo, ESO is a well established licence, by a bigger company with a bigger and I assume more competent team

@silk mountain can you copy'n'paste in game or do you have to exit the program to paste it elsewhere?

[silk mountain]

I meant that other MMOs like WoW for example will have, verbatim, what the NPC said in the quest log for that particular quest so that the player can reference it. Not that I do any copy + pasting.

And I disagree about a smaller team having anything to do with the clarity of the quests. It's about communication, not team size.

[warm jungle]

someone could be a solo dev and I'd still criticize the game for vague and unclear quests

you don't need AAA studio numbers for that

[radiant sun]

Yeah. If anything, a smaller team would make it easier because there's less loops to go through. I think it also stems into the issues with patch notes sometimes being incorrect as well.

[silk mountain]

Yeah that actually happened this go 'round funnily enough XD

[warm jungle]

Yeah we've seen more than once patch notes being wrong cause the communication between the CM team and the dev team is....lacking in a fashion

[radiant sun]

I remember the infamous fireplace/hallways fiasco

[eternal skiff]

Quoting characters directly instead of the reformulations in quests would be good yes.

But team size and quality has everything to do with the quality of communication. Communication is labour, the quality depends on how many are involved, and how many are really competent. A smaller team is statistically going to have less people working on one thing, and so comparing S6 and Bethesda is the answer to why it's not as qualitative

@warm jungle it's not about criticism, it's about comparison. Bethesda has more potential and ease putting out quality work because it simply has more assets.

[warm jungle]

What are you talking about? One person can make quest directions less clear. Company size has zero influence on that

[silk mountain]

Yeah it's absolutely about their competence as writers, period.

ETA - And of course deadlines and such could influence that, but a good writer should be able to circumvent those hurdles to a degree.

[warm jungle]

It's not a situation where throwing bigger numbers at the issue work

[eternal skiff]

I agree, one person is enough to ruin communication quality.
And what happens then, if on the communication team, there are only two people instead of six, and one is not doing good work at the moment?

@silk mountain agreed, it's about skill (edit) a bigger company is statistically going to have more competent people than smaller ones, because it is more attractive since it makes more money, and it has more people

[warm jungle]

sorry, I typoed. one person can make quest directions more clear. You only need a single person to type a clear questlog.

[eternal skiff]

Communication is less high quality in smaller businesses that have high skates and goals, it's been observed again and again in sociology studies too. The more crunch

Edit @warm jungle you need one competent, stress-resilient person. One person can make more mistakes than one person plus another one catching picking up on their mistake, just like we just did.

[warm jungle]

okay what I'm saying is obviously not getting through, later y'all lmao

[radiant sun]

Yeah...I'm not really sure what you're meaning.

I was just mentioning that it's weird Palia, which has quests that are very shallow in depth, can't do it and a game that has infinitely more to worry about not only in the games scope but also in the actual quests themselves can. Especially when it's been mentioned time and time again that the quest logs aren't up to par. It just doesn't make sense. I could literally fix them in my sleep it takes barely any time.

[silk mountain]

And it ultimately doesn't matter. All we're saying is the writing is egregious and should be fixed. The how of it is irrelevant.

[eternal skiff]

If the "how" of a problem is overlooked, what hopes do you have to fix it, sincerely? Not saying it's our job to understand it, but I was merely commenting on Froggies' comparison, and didn't say we couldn't criticize it, or that S6 was free to put out low quality communication.

Now I wouldn't call the writing as a whole egregious but I'm assuming you just meant how quests are written.

[green kelp]

We aren't the ones that can fix it.

[silk mountain]

I meant how it gets fixed is irrelevant so long as is fixed. Full NPC dialogue? Fine. More description? Also fine. There are lots of avenues to fixing the issue and it's up to them to decide how. All we're saying is it needs fixing.

[radiant sun]

Per my inital comment, which I don't think was read correctly: I wasn't saying they need to be delivering AAA content or anything of that sort. Merely stating that it's odd they seem to have a problem with it when their quests aren't filled with much complexity - they're mainly fetch quests or "craft this thing". It doesn't make much sense that a small team, with way less wires to get crossed and way less that they have to fit into the quest logs (due to the shallowness of the quests) has trouble with it compared to a bigger team with a way more complex game and quest system is all.

[warm jungle]

/stares into the void. Y'know what, I'm not even going to give that the benefit of a reply. Most of the rest of y'all are already familiar with me enough to know me better than that.

[dense portal]

Everything good here?

[warm jungle]

Ehhh I'm used to it by now, you know how things get

[radiant sun]

It actually does mean that. Perhaps it doesn't where you're from though, so I digress.

I just wanna say that the channels purpose is not to only discuss solutions to our problems. It's to discuss accessiblity which, often, does mean complaining and venting especially when we're ignored by the thing we're trying to make accessible. I get that you maybe don't vibe with the complaining aspect, but lets make sure not to gatekeep the channel ❤️

[silk mountain]

Any company worth their salt would have a house guide to ensure the style/voice stays the same. So your first point still isn't terribly relevant. Just because it could take work doesn't mean nothing should be done.

[eternal skiff]

I must apologise though @warm jungle because @radiant sun is right, "obtuse" does mean dull in english, which it doesn't in French, and had I known that I wouldn't have called you that. It means stubborn in french, nothing about intelligence. Again, apologies, I don't think you're stupid at all even if we disagree a lot. It was my mistake.

[dense portal]

Hello gentle Palians! Just a friendly reminder of Community Guideline 1: Respect and kindness above all. Remember to be kind to ourselves and to every Palian. Let's try to discuss the idea and refrain from discussing each other, even if you mean well on your part.

[eternal skiff]

I agree, I have said again and again that I think understaffing and mismanagement is a huge issue in S6 and the main reason, to me, why when Palia sucks, it sucks

Which is why calling it "weird" or "odd" seemed wrong to me, because it just isn't, understaffing logically causes lower quality in doing anything.

[radiant sun]

If we're thinking that the lack of clarity in the quest logs is a writing quirk then that would require a large overhaul perhaps, but I don't find anything else to exhibit that same writing style as the quest logs. Personally, I've only had clarity issues with the quest logs - not to say that there isn't anything else that lacks it though.

[ember umbra]

I prefere if I could pin it like quests but this would work

[eternal skiff]

Yes it was honestly my bad on this one, I'll try to do better.

[radiant sun]

I wouldn't even say the quest logs are a quality issue necessarily, if that makes sense, just a communication one. It feels like someone gives the team that creates the quest log the spark notes version of what happens in quests instead of a full play-play of what happens.

[eternal skiff]

I think they also just don't do good work on quest logs because, yeah there's a quirk here used, and yeah it's one that takes away the substances, the details, to keep an air of mystery or whatever.

They should be longer, cleared, and like RedwoodWitch said using WoW as an example, quoting characters. Otherwise they're too cryptic, and maybe that looks cool but gods who cares about it looking cool when it reads like

[ember umbra]

Not temple Sound generel more Sound sliders… if I tube wind/water Sound Down so they dont stress at all… I Got efectivly no Sound …
We have generel and ambians (that include the que sounds), Music and vocies.
I need it split more
Wind and water Sound like my stress tinitus I do not need that extra but I DO want to hear the animals, the que a plant is near the bug Ping….

[eternal skiff]

Oooooh okay so it's a sound mixing issue, there should be more distinct toggles and more sound sliting. Thanks you for taking the time to reformulate/specify.

Overall it always seem to come back to Palia not allowing us to customise our experience enough, because its options are dry. Not even bare minimum.

[pastel mica]

A second sort of tab inside them that you could switch to if you wanted the dialogue or detail would be neat. And they can still have the tldr info too if you are just skimming for something.

It's especially nice in games that don't have the ability to replay quests or dialog and want to reference things.

[ember umbra]

Yes that what i started with “Sound settings”

[quartz maple]

God is the discord just on fire tonight?

[polar grove]

New patch. Like 5his with every mmo style game.

[dense portal]

Hello gentle Palians! Just a friendly reminder of Community Guideline 1: Respect and kindness above all. Remember to be kind to ourselves and to every Palian. Let's try to discuss the idea because it's never okay to go after each other. I suggest we move on from this topic of discussing each other and talk about something else as the direction of this conversation isn't healthy anymore.

Edit: Also just wanted to leave this gentle reminder that everyone is allowed to talk about their experiences and it's okay if some of those experiences are negative. A little venting is part of processing frustration after all. However, if we step in and ask people to move on or take moderator actions, it's because we feel this conversation is moving into territory that is upsetting for the overall chat. Remember to discuss the idea, not the person.

[chilly shale]

Reading through this and the mention of Difficulty Settings does bring up another things to address. Make clear distinctions between Single Player and Multiplayer games. There are some very different design options available to each. Difficulty Settings is something big in single player games that is harder to do in multiplayer, same with the pause button...(Oh how I miss you...) Multiplayer in turn benefits from teamwork options to deal with certain issues as a viable solution.

[radiant sun]

Yeah I think part of what makes it hard too is that Palia is functionally a singleplayer game in a multiplayer world. Yeah, there's other people, but they don't really impact your own game much

[north mesa]

somewhat silly, but is lack of rhythm a disability? cuz i'm not great at chopping due to an inability to keep time and it really shows on the green onions

[radiant sun]

It can be :o) I've got Cerebral Palsy and poor hand eye coordination is a symptom, so yeah. It's why you'll never catch me doing well on Rock Band or Guitar Hero unless I'm doing the vocals 🤣

[chilly shale]

Speaking of multiplayer, cooking seems a good example, spreading out the recipe so that if you have problems with one of the minigames in it you can do another part and working together still cook the food.

[ember umbra]

True here it would likely more be Maybe option for aim help and stuff like that as we share inviroment

[chilly shale]

Aim assist though can be a good example of one of the problems though. In single player aim assist is a great option. In multiplayer where there is any sort of competition in things, such as getting that single hit in on targets that only take one hit to get rid of, aim assist can be a lot harder to balance. Someone who is already a really good shot slaps on aim assist and suddenly noone else is getting that hit in on anything before they can take them all out.

[ember umbra]

Not sure on its Own but could be a sumptym? For some… chopping is hard especially when it Roll like the green onion.. and my and cramp and focus go of… i Found a technic that limit my fails … as you dont NEED to hit every time I say chop chop break chooo chooo brak as a standard if they close (the spring onion might need other patteren)

[chilly shale]

Stumbled across that myself, really nice that you can basically delay till your ready to hit, within reason since the cooking overall is timed.

[barren atlas]

there's a team of aprox 200 people at s6

[chilly shale]

That argument already brought mod atention, let it die please.

[barren atlas]

i'll keep saying it until it stops being true. tired of people mentioning manpower like it's a small team lol

[ember umbra]

Oh Yea your right, Wonder how it csn be helped then becouse as we dont directly compeed I Think some help be ok…

[ember umbra]

Yup then it really is good to team up… flipping pan is my worse

[chilly shale]

The one I would love to see, and use it for wood cutting and mining as well, is simply if you are near you get to loot. No need to even pull out the tool just be in the area.

If you do pull out the tool and give it a go but don't finish (the current share mechanic) then instead it gets mailed to you later when the item is finally harvested. That way if you see Palia or a flow tree but don't have time to wait for others to show up, instead of taking it out yourself, give it a wack and move on. It would remove the need to wait for that one person who is coming from across the zone and takes constant detours and you can get back to the other things you were working on without feeling like you are missing stuff.

This could possibly be extended to bug catching and maybe fishing. Though leeching rewards might be an issue for some if you are just standing nearby as they fish, doens't hurt their income but could be irritating.

A side benifit of this method is it removes the issue with small flow trees and palia nodes, where they can be harvested before others get a chance to tap it simply because high level gear breaks them so fast. Just stand near instead of chopping and you still get the loot.

[barren atlas]

leeching's only a problem if there's an economy; at the very least I think the game needs autoloot, the lack of it is a little odd

[eternal skiff]

They only do to collect rarer items in bulk, and otherwise by choice, yeah, there's no incentive to fight so no incentive to rally.

But then they should try to compromise to still allow difficulty settings, even if just in parts, like they have already done by allowing each player to toggle with aim sensitivity.

@north mesa rythm minigames such as QTEs or the cooking minigames can be impacted by a disability. There are many kinds, such as dyspraxia, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, OCD, ADHD and autism, and others I can't remember right now. It can also be purely physical, instead of having cognitive roots.

I personally struggle with the cooking minigame unless I can use the music as cue, and there are some days the cognitive fatigue is too much for me to be able to do it at all. In this case I don't particularly want to be able to skip the minigame entirely but I'd like it if it were an option for other people, because some food items are key items to progress in the main story.

@barren atlas You are right about the number and I am aware of it, but that can still be too small a number if there is mismanagement and overworking a too small subteam with communication labour, which I suspect is what's going on, and I was addressing the comparison with ESO in particular and how it was called "weird". But I never did anything like "mentioning manpower like it's a small team", unlike what was assumed repeatedly. Like Necrovore said though, this argument is not worth carrying on, especially since I agree with you in essence, no matter the circumstances, S6 needs to do better, or it needs to stop using "inclusivity" as a motto, because it is anything but at the moment. They have the means to do better at top of their hierarchy and are choosing not to, which is not acceptable.

[chilly shale]

Sadly Autoloot would actually be bad with my idea for rewards. Too easy to maliciously use by harvesting everything nearby and forcing it into others inventories.

[eternal skiff]

You're reminding me that I wish we didn't have to tap a button to get the loot, like in Warframe where you just attract it automatically. I know it demands implementing something more complex in code, but button-tapping to pick up every item is known to be tedious for a lot of people with cognitive, joints and muscle issues. It can shorten the play session considerably, which is a shame.

[ember umbra]

Oh that be interesting… some One like me who find bugs very hard could by where luck get a bug… Yea they could build on the share help
I had a thought build on palian gift culture and
A) let you send 4 gifts pr irl day to friend with out request (so you csn surprice Them with an item)
B) the npc Will if randomly give you a gift when you speak with Them, bigger chance and posibly better things bassed on friendship level and if you gifted Them (they Max do it ones pr irl day) the gift they gives fit Them like food from Daria, firework from nijuma, eijne fish ectra

[eternal skiff]

Autoloot could still be a good idea if it were possible to not force anything in others' inventory?

[chilly shale]

B is something that I have been wanting for awhile. It would solve so many of the problems and give a reason to keep giving gifts past max friendship if return gifts were a thing and they had things like bundle items and quest items as possible gifts. A complete alternate method to do all those tasks while being able to skip any of the skills you don't like or cant do.

[ember umbra]

Auto loot as a togle ?

[ember umbra]

Precisly I could focus on treating auni with sweets and some day he might get me the bugs I need
Also it striks me as id if gifting is Big in palian cultur, npc schould Also gift us and not just when we help Them out.
So this option schould be from the start but ofcourse have better chance happen with friendship level and Also better items the better friends…

[chilly shale]

Could consider the part of the suggestion where tapping it just means it will be mailed to you later when it is finally looted as the autoloot
😛

Otherwise...maybe a very short range autoloot. Walk over something to pick it up. Just don't walk over it to avoid it clogging inventory.

[ember umbra]

The npc gifts could just be as a letter OR like Tau gifts in 1 dialog

[eternal skiff]

I did read it but since it requires tapping it sorta just goes back to being an issue because it'd be nice if we didn't have to tap it at all, like I said here #♿│accessibility-discussions message

[chilly shale]

Ah, I meant "tapping" in the being put on the loot/aggro table sense, not in the actual button click meaning though there is obvious overlap.

[eternal skiff]

Ah then my bad, no problem then

[old vector]

i just think it's important to reiterate that ppl dont owe u their disability status or medical history to be involved in these conversations. even though it was deleted, i think it's important to note. dont assume people are nondisabled, it's bad form and is incredibly rude.

mostly just saying this bcos when i said it last it got deleted lol

[ember umbra]

@old vector Yea nobody Owe you their medical status.

[warm jungle]

just reiterating that before I crawl into bed half asleep at 3am lol. No one needs to hand in their medical records to anyone here to prove they're "allowed" to have a voice in here, whether hopeful or skeptical. So let's definitely try not to gatekeep people, because you're not owed anyone's diagnosis list (you as in the "all" kind of you) and you don't know where they're coming from, nor do they have any obligation to tell you.

we're probably a lot more alike than one assumes, and even perceivably allistic people (whether they actually be allistic or someone heavily masking) who have Concerns as to accessibility problems that affect even them are people to listen to too! we don't know what anyone's going through, we're all just tryin' to get through this together

and okay yes 3am I need to beddie bye, so nn friendos

may you all have a cozy rest

[kindred plume]

^^^
I agree 100% and I'd like to add that some accessibility features don't even have to be specifically for folks with disabilities of any kinds. Some people just have slower reaction time (so the cooking might be affected) etc.
I use an accessibility option for my deliveries bc we have lockers for packages that go really high up and if my package gets put in the high one, there's absolutely no way for me to reach it, I'm just too short. So sometimes everyone needs some accessibility :)

[ember umbra]

And its Also ok to writ if you see thing you know would Challenge people you know with need for acesability … hey there is people I would say dont play x game to becouse its not acesibel (and people that say that to me)
That be if you know it from friend or family or in a more profesionel capability

[ember umbra]

Oh I wish we had this here… I cant shop with companies that only deliver to the lockers… they HAVE to deliver to the shop with service… Also to low (that and the lockers is really in a Dark corner of street and that dont do Well with ptsd … )

[warm jungle]

So I just woke up to something that goes along perfectly with that point. Alan Wake 2 added in a new patch an option to chop down (I just woke up and read patch notes so idk how much) a certain kind of jumpscare where you get a scary face flashing in your screen.

Great for both an accessibility standpoint (those who have problems with seeing sudden flashes) and for abled people/disabled people who that particular thing doesn't apply to (weenies like me who get near heart attacks every time stuff like that happens)

Options are so good to have for everyone!

[severe fjord]

How can I post on fg parties?

[fair willow]

If you mean lfg-parties channel, you need to go to the Channels & Roles section of Discord to find and accept the role required. (I tried to link the area, but I can't seem to figure that out. Sorry!)

[ember umbra]

Im sooo bad at scary stuff, do like some trill.
Yes options make game better, and make so more Can enjoy it… in the end that Also must include more money for the Company 1 would Think.
Also like when story driven games either have alternativ tours OR after 3 tries let you skip a part if you cant do the jump. I like the alternativ route version bests😂 like in assasins creed when there is not just 1 Way to get the job done. I might use most the day and night to slowly Pick out the guards but I have fun.

[warm jungle]

Yeah I usually avoid horror things but Alan Wake 2 looked so good so I delved into the series. and it was AMAZING but god those jump scares were too much lmao. I downloaded a mod to black the screen briefly out when they happened but the loud noise was still there so I had to practically play the whole game on mute (except that scene of course which is a crime to not have full volume, iykyk)

but yeah absolutely love alternative versions too. FFXIV put in a system where if you die in a solo duty, you can select an easy or very easy mode. they have a jump puzzle in their summer festival every year and one year it was part of the event's story, so instead of giving a middle finger to anyone who's bad at platforming or unable to do so for whatever reason, they gave an option for you to just skip it (and narrated it like you being so badass you did the whole thing with your eyes closed)

I wish Palia would do that with the gale temple. Like, when they put in the tower, they were SO insistent stuff like that would only ever be optional. but then gale temple involves platforming on top of the issues with motion sickness and either they don't seem to have an intention of adding an alternative mode for something now part of the main storyline, or things are too on fire otherwise for them to have time to

[ember umbra]

That Sound like an amazing alternativ.

[ember umbra]

Yea even the platformene in the fire temple (not as bad) but Sifu could do a great alternativ thing…

Any thing main need not be harder than water temple I Think OR have options

[warm jungle]

Options are so, so good

[ember umbra]

1 in the Air could be that you could ask Them the help look for and after a Cut scene you all come back with some (zeki anoyed he cant eat the eggs and fish and girls talking about knowlegde they Found)

[ember umbra]

They Also make roleplayeing a carecter fun takeing the route Logic for Them in your head

[woven knot]

Download update. Log in (PC)

Still no larger chat in the chat box.

Log back out until next update.

[warm jungle]

It's weird cause like. they showed that they CAN scale the UI if they want to because when you're in hotpot the text UI on the side goes big

idk why they dont wanna put it in the game proper as an option

[woven knot]

I can't progress in the game. I gave up unlocking Subira, because I can't see chat text well enough to see flow tree callouts. I have one blind eye and one that needs size 16 font to barely see.

[dense osprey]

Sad the chappa run still isn't really accessible 😦. Could consider the first person running into the chappa would automatically pick it up

[chilly shale]

Hot Pot okay for everyone though? Seems a great source for the envelopes to buy stuff with.