🧠｜serious-chat

[thorny steeple]

I think a good way of approaching this is to find out why someone holds such a belief, why they are so sure, and how they can justify this belief beyond faith in scripture. This, by my reasoning, can lead to a productive discussion, with the hope that the evidence is compelling and arguments are valid and sound/strong. It can be easy to argue surface-level thoughts and feelings, without ever getting to the crux of the issue.

Ultimately, my sobering realisation is that after all arguments are exposed and whittled down, you're apparently left with faith, and faith is by definition the belief in something in the absence of sufficient evidence, thus such a debate will only go so far. We are dealing with unfalsifiable claims, after all. It's quite possible for the goal posts to be shuffled around ad infinitum, for example. I feel it's important to debate these things with someone who is genuinely open to challenging their beliefs in an honest way, with the awareness of their thoughts and feelings and the acceptance that they may well be wrong, as may we; this goes both ways. The catch? This is often not easy to do, and I've come to realise the importance of compassion, regardless of which side we sit on.

Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you. I'm a native English speaker, though. I'm almost 40.

Apparently it's just a breed of horse, but I'm not sure.

[civic vessel]

damn fr. thx.

[peak fiber]

I hate translating (my) poetry. It feels good in the original language and the translation falls flat. Aaaaaaaa.

[old knot]

what´s the original language?

[peak fiber]

English. The required translation is Finnish.

[old knot]

bruh

[peak fiber]

Ik!

[old knot]

chat gpt

Ready

[peak fiber]

I utilized it already. But it... lacks depth.

[old knot]

so chat gpt 2

[peak fiber]

What is that?

Ik, I could google

[old knot]

idk I just invented it xd

but maybe here is someone who talks finnish or idk

[peak fiber]

Alright.

[steady rivet]

hi

hey

[hot galleon]

Yes I totally agree with you

So I don't spend my time to debate

[thorny steeple]

Because it no longer rhymes?

[thorny steeple]

Oh don't get me wrong, while it might sometimes seem and be fruitless, I do certainly feel it can be fruitful. Learning how other people think and feel, challenging your own beliefs, practising critical thinking, and learning to be charitable (compassionate, empathetic, sympathetic; principle of charity) can all be very enriching.

[jolly agate]

hello beautifull souls

[thorny steeple]

Citation absolutely needed for that claim. 😆 I've gotten far, far more empathetic as I've gotten older (now almost 40), so that's immediately implying your assertion is bogus. 😉

I know other people who've gotten more empathetic the older they've gotten, not less.

[jolly agate]

its subjective

[thorny steeple]

Usually when someone has studies to prove it, they simply prove it with the studies. 😛 However, are you sure you're not simply misinterpreting the studies? People often claim evidence as fact, when it's merely evidence.

I feel like you just ducked my evidence to the contrary of these studies.

By which I mean, I and others I know are far, far more empathetic now vs when they were much younger.

I'm not bickering, I'm providing counter evidence.

That's mature.

I take that back. That was uncalled for.

But if you don't wish to continue, that's fine.

I'm not putting you down, I was providing you with counter evidence, neither of the two times have you addressed it.

So, by "I can prove it", you mean "go look online for nondescript studies" in the hopes of finding the proof?

I think it's generally accepted that we need legs to walk

Who's offended? The person who calls people little tykes or the person who doesn't?

Sorry for my sarcastic little joke. Thought it was harmless

[gentle igloo]

Hi everyone

[thorny steeple]

Good morning/afternoon/evening/night Lee

For all I know, you could be as you say you are, but consider my perspective: you've been rude, evasive, judgemental, used ad hominem several times, and are already telling us to go check out your website. This is a red flag. You might well be who you say you are and your information might be valid, but your approach to sharing this information even on a random server on Discord leaves a lot to be desired, which leaves me to wonder how you manage with peer review.

[gentle igloo]

what are you talking about?

[thorny steeple]

I've yet to find out. Some truly cerebral stuff it seems

pun intended

I have no intention of it.

Hold on a second. I think I just got trolled by a bot.

I could be wrong, but this looks familiar.

Would a bot miss the b in dumbass?

Not sure.

Possibly following a script a 'script kiddie' made? Dunno.

Either way, I'm disengaging from that. Bit of a shame, because it could've been insightful.

Nah, the answers are too human, but you can't know nowadays can you

Yeah, AI is getting pretty good. 😆

Have you seen the one Elon Musk has come up with?

That's Twitter, silly bot. Well, ex-Twitter.

[thorny steeple]

Can't say I keep up with his antics

Humans call it Twitter

He came up with an AI thing which is actually fun to mess about with.

[thorny steeple]

can you have it say nazi stuff?

OK, it's maybe not that free. But it might be. It's basically ChatGPT but with a sense of humor.

Hey, you know, you can't really expect respect when all you've done is be rude

Oh, I blocked it. I'm certain it's either a child or a bot.

I don't remember vomiting from my mouth hole

Didn't know they had computers back then

hmmmm, these answers are awfully similar to one another

Notice the repeat messages, the disconnected responses, the responses you probably wouldn't expect from someone allegedly so qualified. Then there's the unwillingness to engage when pushed back, which seems pretty unscientific. Yeah, I'm not buying any of it. 🙄

Yeah, no, me neither

Not to say that such a qualified person must be polite, but it doesn't seem fitting.

OK, I've unblocked it, because the responses are kinda funny.

Just random lines from a script, I swear.

Are there any mods around

h u h

Facetime? Lol WTF. It's Discord!

So random. I think I've sussed these bots. Although it took me far too long with this one.

Not a chance.

I'll give you a call

pick up then

I'm not this patient

😆

can we ping the mods? "stfu" is a little uncalled for

[cursive bobcat]

Should you require moderator assistance please use #🛂｜report-help

[thorny steeple]

#🛂｜report-help

You don't tell people to "shut the fuck up", man. Get some manners. It has nothing to do with being uptight, just basic decency

That's convenient. Wish I'd known about that sooner. Lol

Hello

Can you please deal with either that bot or child. Either way, it's highly inappropriate.

They've attempted to lure us to their website (red flag) and have hurled abuse at us non-stop.

@buoyant oriole

[unkempt steppe]

@buoyant oriole

[buoyant oriole]

yeah?

[thorny steeple]

Funny...

Any luck?

I assume y'all are moderators. 😆

[unkempt steppe]

Well

[thorny steeple]

Nah mate

Damn.

[unkempt steppe]

No

[thorny steeple]

@buoyant oriole

You came at a funny time. Looked like a whole bunch moderators just conveniently popped in to vanquish a bot. 😆

@buoyant oriole knock knock

[buoyant oriole]

who there

[thorny steeple]

Remove the reactions

Now

Hmm, maybe it's not a bot. The error with the emotes looked convincingly human.

Or I will....

[jolly agate]

bro you good

[thorny steeple]

Hey all

@thorny steeple Are you a moderator here, or an administrator perhaps?

[jolly agate]

ayooo

[thorny steeple]

I wish

[jolly agate]

not funny

[thorny steeple]

Ah, OK.

[thorny steeple]

Just a member

bow tie is an admin it seems

Finally. 😆 Nice one and thank you. 🙂

oh my god

[jolly agate]

thankyou

[thorny steeple]

Welp

[thorny steeple]

That I am

[unkempt steppe]

Ugh

[thorny steeple]

Thanks mr. Tie

Whoever or whatever it was, was irritating, albeit occasionally funny.

Tie Knots The Loose END

looked like trolling or a bot

Yeah, agreed.

[jolly agate]

hes gone for good

[thorny steeple]

Right, I'm gonna head off. I went for a 40 minutes walk in the end, Lullo. 😆 Decided to unwind on PC, but now I'm off to NightNightLand.

👋

[jolly agate]

laterz

[thorny steeple]

Now you guys can have good and peace debate or discussion whatever’

[thorny steeple]

Enjoy your time in the dream world

I love sleep, I get to not worry for once

[buoyant oriole]

to sleep give me anxiety

[thorny steeple]

That's quite unfortunate. Have you taken your meds yet

[full basin]

@sand river i have u a offer

[craggy sphinx]

?

[thorny steeple]

Yesterday something happened.

bad thing so at the end the solution was given thats why

[craggy sphinx]

hm, I need to be more vigilant

[thorny steeple]

yo what up

how you guys doing

[hot galleon]

Yes personally, I don't have credulity so I can change my believe if the arguments of people is convinced

[full river]

That sounds interesting. How do you imagine being one?

[fluid geyser]

For a beginner, your writing's really good :) Just a small correction

"Yes, personally I don't have credulity, so I can change my belief if people's arguments are convincing."

[peak fiber]

No. I don't do rhymes.

[hot galleon]

Thanks for this correction

[brisk oyster]

hi my name is optimus prime

[maiden path]

are u the duck? @jolly agate

[jolly agate]

im the duck

[jolly agate]

am i

[sturdy dust]

Duck duck goose

[craggy sphinx]

What the hell is going on in this chat?

[sturdy dust]

Duck Duck goose

[buoyant oriole]

hey guys i miss my ex, what can i do about it?

[thorny steeple]

It's better to take a cold shower and go to gym

[buoyant oriole]

well in my country there are only cold showers hahaha but thanks great advice i notice now why there are so much people in the gym haha

[thorny steeple]

They are building great man and woman personality

[buoyant oriole]

do you go there?

[thorny steeple]

Life is not just making love and chilling

[thorny steeple]

I practice boxing actually

[hot galleon]

Yes, life is working and physical effort

[craggy sphinx]

I hate myself

[craggy sphinx]

i don't know
I don't know
I don't know

[lavish finch]

You hate yourself?

What happened?

[static pivot]

Is it possible? A person to hate themselve?

[lavish finch]

Yes

Happens all the time

[serene birch]

Main problems of those who commit suicide.

[lavish finch]

yes

In extreme cases

[serene birch]

Yeah, this should also be mentioned.

Very extreme cases

[lavish finch]

It’s possible to use the hate constructively

[thorny steeple]

Right 👍🏻

[lavish finch]

if you don’t take it just personally

It’s just energy

and it can be redirected

but the person would need to find some compassion for themselves first

[serene birch]

jogging best and easiest solution about this situation

[lavish finch]

self care

[serene birch]

Inactivity generally encourages this process in this case. And it is necessarry to socialize a little with people you fell close to.

[agile summit]

Hey guys,

My name is Yegor, and along with my dedicated team, we have developed a mobile application designed for scheduled language practices: lingopraxis.com.

Our platform, available at lingopraxis.com, offers a structured approach to language practice that fits into your daily routine. We invite you to explore its features and join our growing community of language enthusiasts.

Give it a try and elevate your language skills

[craggy sphinx]

hello Mr James Green

I planned to do a lot today, but because I was lazy, I missed the time. Because of this I want to punish myself.

I also hate myself for this

[thorny steeple]

seems like you need some productivity tips, here's what I typically do.

1. break down big goals into smaller, manageable tasks, make sure they are small enough that they require minimal effort.
2. eliminate distractions, this might be the paramount tip so far if it's combined with the first tip. make it harder for distractions to hinder your productivity, while making it easier to do work, this includes turning off your notifications, silencing your phone, etc....
3. prioritize your tasks effectively by classifying them based on urgency and importance. consider using a visual method, such as the traditional pen-and-paper approach or digital tools like Notion, to organize your tasks and make your priorities clear. The choice of method depends on your personal preferences.
4. reinforce your accomplishments by rewarding yourself for completing tasks. it could be something as simple as visually checking off the task (which can bring a sense of immense relief and satisfaction) or treating yourself to a small indulgence like a chocolate. no matter how small the accomplishment may seem, celebrating it reinforces positive behavior and boosts motivation.

these are just few tips that have worked wonders for me personally, finally, it's important to take breaks regularly not to overwork. I hope this helps. ✨

[thorny steeple]

first impression, it looks pretty good. the landing page is clean, concise, intuitive, aesthetic, and informative. the app's UI also looks fantastic. also I see you used tailwind for styling the landing page. I'm curious, did you use React Native to build the app?

[jolly agate]

but it depends how you use

[thorny steeple]

also, I can't test the UX of the app, 'cause my phone sucks a little honestly, I don't have free space to download it. 😅

[jolly agate]

i was too lazy to read the whole thing

[thorny steeple]

Lol, can't blame you. I noticed I'm a bit verbose most of the time. currently trying to be more concise.

[jolly agate]

i was being sarcastic lol

[thorny steeple]

I know. xD

I'm just saying.

[jolly agate]

i get it

btw

how do u remember those words

[thorny steeple]

what words?

[jolly agate]

verbose and others

[thorny steeple]

I use them.

[jolly agate]

uncommon words that we dont ussualy use it on normal bases

[thorny steeple]

that's how I memorize them.

[thorny steeple]

there is a method that I'm following, works like a charm.
first you learn a new word that's uncommon, practice it for the whole day in different occasions. if you can't find a situation to use it, make one. or talk to yourself and imagine a situation where you'd use the word. your subconsciousness will let it pop up in your mind when you want to express what the word means later.

[jolly agate]

is one day really enough

[jolly agate]

guess i could try that.

[thorny steeple]

depends, but on average, one day has been mostly sufficient for me.

[thorny steeple]

I highly encourage you to do so. it's been proven very effective for me.

[jolly agate]

i will, since im also trying to imporve my writing skills and hand writting. i'll hit 3 birds with one stone

[thorny steeple]

by the way, don't forget to give me your feedback afterwards. I'd like to know if it works with other people.

[jolly agate]

sure

thanks for the help

gonna sleep now

laterz with the cool z

[thorny steeple]

any time. 🤍

[orchid totem]

Can we make friends

[ebon pelican]

According to you what are immediate factors that diminish a person's attractiveness?

[twin glacier]

ignorance

[thorny steeple]

massive ego

[south python]

Arguing without listen to your point just they want to speakkkkkkkk

[vernal otter]

putting people down without any clearly consideration

[thorny steeple]

I am wondering that what do muslisms think about french revolutıon?

[ebon pelican]

"Lowkey" refers to something done discreetly or subtly, while "highkey" is used to describe actions that are obvious, overt, or intense.

[ebon pelican]

Can u please elaborate your question a bit more 👀

[thorny steeple]

How can a muslim interpret french revolutıon and it's results according to islamic sight?

[ebon pelican]

Muslim views on the French Revolution are different and complicated. They are shaped by history, culture, and religion. The revolution talked about things like freedom, equality, and brotherhood, which can match Islamic ideas of fairness and helping people. However, its focus on non-religious values might not be well-received in Muslim settings. In the Muslim world, some people like the idea of democracy mixed with Islamic principles, while others are cautious about these Western, non-religious ideas. Today's Muslim thinkers have various opinions based on where they come from and their own situations. This shows a wide range of thoughts in the Muslim world, proving that their views are not all the same.

• In my opinion In Islam, there are certain things that must be followed exactly as prescribed, and we cannot make any changes to them. These are the laws that are set as per God's guidance, and they must be adhered to. However, there are other aspects where there is room for interpretation. Our religion is not so rigid, but the laws established by God cannot be altered. When it comes to matters related to the modern world and progress we should approach them with understanding and adapt accordingly.

[thorny steeple]

[versed escarp]

Hello everyone, I am web developer with 6 years experience in Web development and now looking for new position.
Could you invite me clients to be interested in Web development?
I could be able to make your dream come true as Web developer.
Thanks.

[agile summit]

thanks for the kind words bro

yes, we used react-native for mobile app

[thorny steeple]

I am wondering thoughts of @thorny steeple about this question

[ebon scarab]

hello

[timber cobalt]

Greed

[narrow brook]

Low self esteem

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/plink-cat-plink-cat-gif-1794292671885121408

[full knot]

I love this cat

[thorny steeple]

Same

That's cute.

Really cute

[keen crag]

Sahih

[silver gyro]

Hi

[echo canopy]

what do non-native english speakers think of american accents?

[full knot]

Like american vs british accent? Haha

[silver gyro]

African-American accent is the best 💀

[silver gyro]

Bruh you look like a Mujahid x pro max

[hot galleon]

I'm fed up being an other people, I want to be myself, I'm not perfect I have a lot a default for exemple I think everyday for what's people think about me, I am a sht I'm not perfect, I am just addict of prno and sugar but I want to change my life, no for other people but for myself, I don't want to success, I just want to do what I will and I want, I've personal conviction so I know I'm naughty guy for someone, that's important for me to show my bad personality for exemple I think everyday to have a girlfriend but I never had a girlfriend in my life, I have bad note in all a matters (I'm graduate student), I want to have a healthy life but it's hard for me because I'm am addict of YouTube too and I assume my bad personality.

[silver gyro]

May I can ask you why you are telling random ppl you lifeStory?

Your*

[hot galleon]

Because I want to telling my life, a problem ?

[silver gyro]

Nah brother.

[thorny steeple]

Hey man, what do you really want to do what do you value so highly, if ur not sure spend some time with ur head and figure our your values and set them carefully

[hot galleon]

I don't care for every people who consider me like a naughty people, you can insult me, social medias make believe that perfect human in this reality exist.

[thorny steeple]

I understand your frustration, and you are right about social media making many look like they are perfect but we ain't, but there is a quote I like, "deal with people the way they show u themselves and God will handle what's within them."

[hot galleon]

I want to follow my reason , my conviction, for example I Want to have a healthy life, I want to think about myself everyday, I want to do the job that I want, I want to dream even though people think that I'm crazy

[thorny steeple]

A lot to unpack.

Are you saying you're fed up of being like everyone else, thus you want to be yourself? Maybe this could be the day you decide to break away from what people expect of you and your sense of obligation to that expectation, and to instead be true to who you are, or who you want to be.

"I'm not perfect"

No, you're not. Nobody is, and that's OK. Try not to focus on perfection, because it's a pointless endeavor. If you're a better person than you were yesterday, you're on the right track.

"I am a sht I'm not perfect"

You're not perfect, it's true, but that doesn't mean you're equivalent to feces. You seem to have this expectation of yourself that you must be perfect, but as I explained above, this is a pointless endeavor. You cannot ever be perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect human being. We are a collection of individuals with our own wants, thoughts, feelings, associations, sense of self, beliefs, and morality; you are no different. You're not an alien, because you're a human, just like us.

"I am just addict of prno and sugar but I want to change my life, no for other people but for myself"

This is really good. You have the awareness to recognise the problems in your life. Now, what are you going to do about it? Perhaps consider a plan of action, and seek professional support.

"I think everyday to have a girlfriend but I never had a girlfriend in my life"

Sometimes it can take a while. It's easy to look at other people's progress in life, then assume we must follow them, but it's silly; they're completely different people with different opportunities, personalities, and experiences. Also, if you work on yourself — properly and earnestly — you may just pique the interest of your target gender. Until then, focus on improving yourself. If you hate yourself so much, how can you expect a woman to love you?

"I want to have a healthy life but it's hard for me because I'm am addict of YouTube too and I assume my bad personality."

You might have an addictive personality, which is a recognise problem in psychology. In other words, you could likely get help for these things. Look up "addictive personality" and get in touch with a suitable doctor who can signpost you to further help and perhaps a diagnosis for your struggles.

[thorny steeple]

I see, so you think you are a prisoner?, it's mostly mental fixes, you have to sit with yourself to reset your mind

[silver gyro]

May I can ask what you’re talking about?

[thorny steeple]

I agree pretty much with everything, except the doctor part, it's mostly the mind being used to certain circumstances he just have to set free from the prison he has created for himself.

[hot galleon]

Because I take conscience that I feel bad because I always just condisering the thinking of other people and not myself

The reality it's I don't care of What people think about me

[silver gyro]

Idk why but sport helped me a lot

[hot galleon]

Thanks for this message

[thorny steeple]

Get the will to act upon it, talking about it won't fix anything now that you've read allat act

[twin glacier]

okay, you focus quite a lot on the opinions others have about you according to your perspective, that’s something you should change to start with. it has a lot to do with the lack of self esteem and motivation. firstly start asking yourself what do the things that make you feel bad have in common with each other instead of asking yourself what is making you feel this way. focus on changing your lifestyle from now on, finding your own well being through inner peace and trust in yourself. try to socialize with people out there. problems can be solved most of the time even if it takes a while, dont get stuck in the same corner blaming yourself and thinking about the prejudices that others may have about you

[silver gyro]

YOU BROKE? GO TO THE FING GYM. YOU SAD? GO TO THE FING GYM. YOU POOR? GO TO THE FING GYM. YOU LIKE SUSHI? GO TO THE FING GUM.

[thorny steeple]

Exercise is great, but it's not always so simple and it's not always the solution.

[hot galleon]

Yes but in reality it's important to show for everyone that's not yourself in the thinking of other people

[hot galleon]

I do workout

[thorny steeple]

Aight

[hot galleon]

I eat healthy a maximum

[full knot]

People say that gym helps you with your discipline and state of mind, but I don't know since I've never gone to a gym haha

[hot galleon]

I try to sleep good everyday

[thorny steeple]

Yeah right, your battle now is s mental battle probably

[hot galleon]

I want to do swimming too, I love this sport

[hot galleon]

Thanks

[silver gyro]

The mistake that you are doing is that you don’t know ppl to be interested in them. You have to understand them. If you want to understand them you have to make friends, talk to random ppl etc. Cuz if you will do that, at the end you just like yourself and the way you are. Bruh my English is bad

[hot galleon]

I never drink alcohol and I never smoke in my life

[silver gyro]

Bro Gym is a very nice place fr

[thorny steeple]

It seems pretty good. I'm just confused as to who "them" are. 😛

[silver gyro]

Ppl that he thinks about.

[thorny steeple]

Ooh, gotcha.

[silver gyro]

He said that he thinks a lot

[hot galleon]

Ppl, push pull legs ? I know that

[thorny steeple]

I've actually never stepped foot in a gym. I've always just worked out at home and walked/jogged outside. It's a hell of a lot easier and cheaper, but it can be expensive getting the equipment (especially weights). It suits me. I'm of the opinion that the gym isn't for everybody.

[twin glacier]

anytime, remember life is not over and you can still get to make big changes. just hit me up whenever you want and need

[silver gyro]

😅ok

[thorny steeple]

It's far more, it will give you something nothing else can give, and the feeling when you're fatigued the release of hormones will make you Relax both mind and body, it's great

[silver gyro]

Bruh don’t take it serious about the gym. I just stole the quote from Andrew😅💀

[thorny steeple]

Oh, the all-caps part earlier? OK. 😆

[thorny steeple]

Try calisthenics, u can fo that almost everywhere

[hot galleon]

Okay thank you for that, it's true I'm only 19 years old so I have so many things to success

[silver gyro]

Yeah right.

[thorny steeple]

Already do those sort of exercises, but also weights and stuff. That's what works for me, at least.

[silver gyro]

Nah but fr gym can help you

[thorny steeple]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all the gym equipment. 😄 I'd love to get a multigym, but it'd never fit where I live.

[thorny steeple]

As long as it's working keep it up man, you get Muscle soreness?

[thorny steeple]

Of course. My point is just that the gym isn't required in order to get good exercise. I say this because if someone is struggling, sometimes working out at home is a good initial step.

[thorny steeple]

Of course. 😆 If I drink plenty of water, it's not so bad. Usual stuff.

[hot galleon]

For everyone who wondering why I talking about my life, it's because I'm training to assume my defaults, it's important for me to not care about thinking of other people

[silver gyro]

Bro all ppl on earth hate discipline.

[thorny steeple]

Ye that's essential as muscles are 70% water

[thorny steeple]

That's unlikely. There are a lot of people on Earth. Some people are very disciplined and could very well enjoy the rigidity and predictability of a disciplined life style.

Is the Orange because of the color or because of the fruit?

[hot galleon]

I know sport is important in this life and I love sport, but sport is not the only solution, there are a lot of other solutions like eat healthy, good sleep, focus on yourself etc.

[thorny steeple]

What do you mean by "assume my defaults"?

[silver gyro]

One week ago I found out that my muscles on the right side are not growing up or something like. I didn’t gave up cuz of that reason. Believe me I hate discepline. But I have to continue cuz I fall in love with the process I’m doing.

Discipline *

[hot galleon]

Not try to hide my default and don't create an other personnality

[thorny steeple]

Medical issue? Failing that, could be bad posture, uneven weight, compensating with other muscles, or uneven focus (e.g., mismatched reps). Probably a bazillion other things.

[hot galleon]

Sorry if I make mistakes I'm only A2 in English

[thorny steeple]

Ooh, like... being true to who you are? Being honest with yourself? Being who you want to be?

[thorny steeple]

Might just be genetics

[hot galleon]

Yes

[thorny steeple]

But idk how it happened for 1 week

[thorny steeple]

Yeah, true.

[silver gyro]

I’m a Hard-Worker😅. Nah but after that I got f***ed.

[heady compass]

how mercury has said: its a hard life, but i did it for love

[thorny steeple]

If it was just one week, it points to a health issue or the sort of things I listed. Likely the things I listed, TBH.

Ye right

[silver gyro]

Dein Mikro ist Kaputt 🎅🏿thanks for the quote

[thorny steeple]

Hallo. 👋

[heady compass]

hallo, wie gehts?

[thorny steeple]

How I know my level in english ?

[thorny steeple]

Gut, danke. 🙂 Dir?

[silver gyro]

Bruh ihr seid Deutsch 💀

[jolly agate]

how they look

[thorny steeple]

Ich bin kein Deutscher, ich spreche Deutsch nur. (zweite Sprache)

[heady compass]

sehr gut, endlich ich habe einen rest

saying rest in deutsch ist so ugly, i mean "ruhe" is horrible xD

[thorny steeple]

[thorny steeple]

A test

[heady compass]

na, its my third language, im from chile xD

[thorny steeple]

Oooh, awesome.

[thorny steeple]

what test?

Did you mean you were having a rest from German? Or that you finally have a rest from speaking English? 😛

[hot galleon]

Actually, I am addict of sugar because my parents are always buying that, but I said of my parents it's bad for me, but they don't want to change that, I just want to work and have a house for only myself to be sure that I don't eat jungfood

[thorny steeple]

Simply type in Google, English level test

[heady compass]

a rest from life tbh

[thorny steeple]

Dang, that escalated.

[thorny steeple]

Too bad it will haunt us

[hot galleon]

I can go to supermarket and don't buy jungfood, I only buy vegetable and fruit

But my parents always buy jungfood

[heady compass]

its sound like soo bad but i mean these days, at least to say, have been really hard

[thorny steeple]

Do you have your own money, Ryad?

[hot galleon]

No I'm student

[thorny steeple]

Damn.

It sucks when you're at the mercy of your parents' choice of food. But, are you at least able to ask them to buy healthier food? At least for you. Have you told them you want to eat healthier, to be healthier, and that this matters a lot to you?

[hot galleon]

Yes I told to them

[thorny steeple]

Trust man, you're living, in few years will look back and say "damn I've got a story to tell" keep it up champ this worldly life will push you to your knees put u will get up every time

Not shouting, not angry, just... peacefully telling them honestly what it means to you.

[twin glacier]

meanwhile i have to beg my mom to buy some cookies

[thorny steeple]

The grass is always greener.

[heady compass]

oohh thats really cute, i appreciate a lot, but there is no big trouble, only the last days of school and many works to do

[hot galleon]

We don't have the same reason lmao

[thorny steeple]

Right, school you've got it

[hot galleon]

Yeah true thanks for that

I have still 3 years of studing and have work

Because I want to be engineer

[thorny steeple]

Civil engineering?

[hot galleon]

Especially Engineer in climate

I don't support that earth is always polluted

Ecology it's a big conviction for me

[thorny steeple]

Yeah, this world is a mess. For our survival, at least.

[thorny steeple]

The only engineer for climate is God but if you mean professionalism in the fundamentals and other aspects of climate that damn that's beautiful

[heady compass]

and you? what you study

[thorny steeple]

The beauty of the skies has been eliminated

[heady compass]

also you

lets talk about studies, no? xD

[thorny steeple]

I suppose you could say I'm studying philosophy, these days. I don't study at college or university or anything though. I'm probably almost double your age, though.

[hot galleon]

Yes, in 2023 we've had the greatest climate crisis.

[heady compass]

im 16

[thorny steeple]

I have got no place in this life, but I'm trying to get somewhere, I'm currently studying software engineering at home, in few months I'll start my electric engineer course

[heady compass]

what autor are you reading?

[heady compass]

thats cool, but not says that you dont have place, everyone has place

[thorny steeple]

Maybe, we'll see where the flow will get me going

[hot galleon]

This conversation today cheer me up, thank you everyone 🙏

[errant cedar]

real, Brazil is going through a heatwave, i feel like im going to pass out

[thick ruin]

@errant cedar nice to meet you

[thorny steeple]

None at the moment. I'm more interested in the conclusions of philosophers, than the philosophers themselves. But I'm especially fascinated by Socrates, and learned a bit about Aristotle and Nietzsche. My interests mostly lie in topics related to metaphysics, like religion, the simulation hypothesis, questions about our reality, etc. I'm also greatly interested in philosophy of logic, so argumentation, principles, fallacies, cognitive biases, etc. I find existential nihilism and determinism interesting. That's probably enough rambling on that topic, though. Lately, I'm focused mainly on logic.

[heady compass]

take the flow but not totally, be one with the flow, cause you have the chance and the power of change it

[errant cedar]

a girl died at Taylor Swift concert 2 days ago i guess bc of how hot it was

[heady compass]

i see, i really like logic, and more than logic the history of logic

[thorny steeple]

Oh, like how philosophers came to discover and build upon logic and various components of it?

[heady compass]

if i have to recomend an author, i will say ortega y gasset

[thorny steeple]

That's very interesting, btw are you religious, it's a personal question leave it blank if u don't want to answer

[hot galleon]

I'm fascinated by philosophy too

[heady compass]

yeap, and the dialogic with that

[thorny steeple]

I'm agnostic, but I'm not a hateful one, per the principle of charity and my preference of focusing on logic, rather than feelings and one's character.

[errant cedar]

hi

[thorny steeple]

Understandable I'll see my chances

[thorny steeple]

Oh

[hot galleon]

I'm an agnostic/atheist

[thick ruin]

@errant cedar where are you from?

[errant cedar]

brazil

[thick ruin]

oh good

[thorny steeple]

Yes, I remember your discussion in this channel a while ago.

[errant cedar]

why’s it good lol

[thorny steeple]

i hate test

[hot galleon]

I saw a reportage of jungfood in Brazil most kids drink Coca Cola even babies...

[errant cedar]

😭

[thorny steeple]

Blud needs practice

[thorny steeple]

Nice one. Keep working at it, and I'm sure you'll see that score improve.

[errant cedar]

yeah it’s a part of our culture atp lol

[proud summit]

what is the name of that test

[thorny steeple]

cambridge general test english

A1

[hot galleon]

Yeah but Coca Cola it's a danger drink

[thorny steeple]

Gross. I stopped drinking that acidic junk drink a long, long time ago. Dodgy stuff, IMO. The sugar and the acidic are so bad for you. I vaguely remember reading about aspartame also potentially being bad for you, because it triggers insulin release or something. Can't remember. Either way, I'd avoid it.

[errant cedar]

i mean if u drink excessively yes

[thorny steeple]

I did wrong 64% of the test

I suppose one now and then, in careful moderation, isn't dangerous. Still, I don't see it being worthwhile drinking it. If I buy it, it's to clean my drains. 😆

@thorny steeple how much have you studied about climate and nature?

[hot galleon]

Yeah personally for 3 years I only drink water

[thorny steeple]

Only surface level, I think. I've picked up bits and pieces.

[thorny steeple]

I don't have time, I'm study to another test

[thorny steeple]

Wow, that's awesome. I occasionally have coffee when I'm out with friends at a coffee shop, but otherwise, it's water and various forms of tea for me.

[errant cedar]

i get where you’re coming from, but i mean it when i say it’s a part of our culture lol, I can’t imagine some events without coca cola

[dense agate]

better be mint tea though

[thorny steeple]

Oh, which culture? I'm in the UK. I don't think it's part of ours, but it certainly seems like a common drink.

[hot galleon]

Yeah 😂

[thorny steeple]

I hope you develop a deeper sense of faith as you dwell in Gods creation

[errant cedar]

brazil

[hot galleon]

I drinked coffee every morning but I stopped that for 1 week

[thorny steeple]

You're presupposing God's existence and you've implied I've at all developed a sense of faith. Given faith is belief in the absence of sufficient evidence, logic dictates that I reframe from it. However, I appreciate the sentiment.

[errant cedar]

there’s something we do here called churrasco, if there isn’t Coca Cola it just doesn’t hit the same

[thorny steeple]

Oooh, OK. I thought you might've been in America. I can imagine Coke and Pepsi being popular there.

[hot galleon]

There are 2 more times obese people in USA than population in France...

[errant cedar]

it’s like when we reunite with our family and friends in a hot day and have barbecue

[errant cedar]

more like Starbucks lol

[thorny steeple]

That wasn't quite what I was implying. America just seems generally more relaxed about these things.

[silver hill]

So I won't invite you, because when we have a barbecue here we don't buy any fizzy drinks 😊

[dense agate]

but isn't obesity a global problem, you could find it in both developed and underdeveloped countries

[thorny steeple]

you will hopefully

[errant cedar]

I personally don’t like Starbucks and I love coffee

[thorny steeple]

I'd say so.

[errant cedar]

ok?

[silver hill]

Just joking

[thorny steeple]

Costa's my favorite, but I wind up in others because they're closer or friends go there. 😆

[dense agate]

you really can't have a rational proof of a supernatural god.

[errant cedar]

oh lol sorry

[hot galleon]

Yeah I agree with that, obesity exist always in the world, so it's a global problem

[thorny steeple]

Look within you, you are an enough proof

[dense agate]

you can believe in it, but it's done irrationally.

as long as the God in question is a supernatural one.

[errant cedar]

I feel like all of this “all bodies are beautiful” movement just made it even worse

[hot galleon]

The principal problem is our society is a society of overconsumption we don't care about the futur of our earth...

[silver hill]

That's purely true, and I think it will only get worse, not only because people are earning less money, therefore they have to buy cheaper and low-quality industrialised goods, but because we won't be able to produce fresh food for everyone due the climate crisis

[dense agate]

i don't think it made it worse, obesity has been in the rise for decades, with or without these movements you mention it will continue to rise.

[thorny steeple]

Mostly food industry, most of the food we eat is genetically modified

And other factors many other

[dense agate]

it's a really tricky problem to solve, it exists in both poor and rick socio-economical backgrounds

[hot galleon]

Yeah, we eat chimic products...

[thorny steeple]

I disagree with your assertion. If God appeared to us right now, seemingly justifiably 'goddy' enough such that we'd be able to reach some sort of scientific, religious, and general consensus that it is as it seems, then you would in this hypothetical situation have rational proof (or sufficient evidence) of at least a god or god-like being or entity. Sorry for the verbosity of this, but it's not such a simple assertion.

[silver hill]

Exactly, here in Brazil, we are suffering from extreme weather from North to South, The Amazon forest is the biggest water bay in the world, and in many regions, it has dried up....

[thorny steeple]

What do you think is the main reason of it? The endless lust of hunger or the food industry playing genetically with the food we should consume naturally how god created it

[silver hill]

Yes, but I believe firmly that rich people have means and access to quality food.

[hot galleon]

Meanwhile, Elon Musk make believe that Tesla car is green while this car have a big battery which weight 500 kilos...

[dense agate]

it's that we consume a lot of calories and there is a serious lack of physical movement nowadays, a lot of people have sedentary jobs where they barely move much.

[thorny steeple]

The concept of logic humans have created made us limited by our own boundaries, god is beyond literally anything we cannot even imagine how everything would be

[silver hill]

Yep, I find difficult to believe in rich people, they open their mouths and I am like, ok, what are you selling?

[dense agate]

to put it simply, people are consuming more calories than they burn, it's causes can be different from person to a person but i think we have some general repetitive causers, like our current modern life style of office work and so on.

[errant cedar]

of course, but I do believe these movements made it worse, people are starting to “accept who they are” because ppl keep saying it’s ok to be overweight

[thorny steeple]

True, also the food that spikes insulin levels, which will make us hungry almost 24/7

[thorny steeple]

The hypocrisy of this is that we also created religious belief. After all, humans hands wrote the scriptures on which we largely continue to base religious belief.

That being said, in fairness, I'm assuming here that we weren't influenced from an entity or entities or a being or beings, which I don't think is actually a given. I can't claim to know what I don't know.

[dense agate]

that doesn't make them prone to it, a lot of the middle class has access and the capacity to adopt a healthy diet, but our lifestyles get on the way.

[vale ledge]

Genetically modified don’t mean unhealthy the problem is the abundance of "processed food" with is full of unhealthy product

[hot galleon]

Coca Cola, McDonalds etc. the most popular companies whiches selling jungfood...

[silver hill]

The food industry has found a way to sell cheaper food to more people, the issue is how they are making it, like the amount of calories that are totally unnecessary

[dense agate]

ofc people will always try to push a narrative that puts them in a position of power, but their effect is very minimal as i see it to the overall obesity problem. although i am against targeting obese people with hateful comments, just because someone has a weight problem doesn't mean they should be demeaned for it.

[errant cedar]

yess!!!!

[thorny steeple]

For me I wasn't even that religious I was born in a religious country so by default I took that religion with me but I never really practiced it, and actually might sound weird or non logical go you, I embraced my religion because of some spiritual experiences I've had a state let's say. God truly exists

[hot galleon]

Totally agree

[silver hill]

Which is a bit funny, isn't it?! Because we see so many people trying to sell perfect bodies and diets on Instagram, and still our society is dying because they are overweight, or in some countries in Africa and North Brazil, dying in famine...

[dense agate]

you have a good point here, actually the earth population is so big we have to genetically modify food and find other ways to increase it's production so that we can have enough to feed everyone (ofc there will always be food waste) but this has allowed many places to escape famines.

[dense agate]

The irony of life: one group wastes food due to excess, while another faces early graves due to a lack of it.

[thorny steeple]

I highly believe if genetic modifications were necessary then god didn't create than animal perfectly, but this whole genetic modifications was inevitable as we humans develop and try things out and many discoveries, all the modifications humans had made to the original creation is not beneficial for the consumer but for the seller

[fathom vine]

Well going by this u saying it’s writed by peoples hand so maybe its not true.

The Quran of Muslim was writed by their last prophet which is proven that he didn’t know to write or read . And also all that knowledge on that book would be possible to be written by a human is my question?

[hot galleon]

The only thing that our political leaderships want it's to get money and more money, the health of people and the health of earth is the last of their problems

[thorny steeple]

Yes, I appreciate your experiences have led you to some sort of spiritual understanding, but I need much more than simply one's subjective, unverifiable experience and convenience of being raised in a country who's common denominator of religion just happens to be their religion and just happens to be the one true religion above all others which currently stand and came before.

[silver hill]

However the biggest issue is the food logistics, we can add as many preservatives as we can to keep the food okay, but if we dont have a better way to distribute it, it will be useless. If I am not wrong the amount we throw away because of bad logistics is almost the quantity to feed more than half of the countries in famine/poverty

[thorny steeple]

They are starting to make 3d printed food ☠️, with one cell of the original animal they make the rest printed

[vale ledge]

The population isn’t to big for the amonts of food the earth can product the GMO is in most case only here to havé better revenue and be competitif in the market today the famine are mostly cause by political and infrastruture issue

[silver hill]

Yes, and we common people will suffer because of their greedy, which sucks

[silver hill]

I saw it, its disgusting

[silver hill]

Exactly

[thorny steeple]

Yeah I understand, I describing very little at the surface, it's something I cannot even explain it's a state. And ye man hope you find what 'suits' you

[dense agate]

I won't deny that wasted food due to poor logistics is a real issue, likely more common than we realize. However, technological limitations also play a role. The air conditioners in transportation can only do so much, and they contribute to higher energy costs, subsequently raising prices.

[hot galleon]

If everyone would change that it is possible that changes, but the problem it's a big pourcentage of people don't care about that

[silver hill]

Thats a great point

[thorny steeple]

We really are moving towards our doom

[silver hill]

But I believe that technological issues can be solved more easily than we think, but governments and billionaire industries have no interest...

[vale ledge]

GMO is a good avencement for humanity but we have to be cautious because it can destroy some grond and ecosystem

[silver hill]

People are more interested in following their favourite celeb than questioning the government for good projects and strategies

[silver hill]

Yes it can lead to species extinction

[dense agate]

You've made a valuable point. In several famine-affected countries, the issue often isn't caused from the land's inability to produce food but rather from political factors such as wars, civil conflicts, and economic instability.
BUT, the necessity for processed food to sustain a growing population becomes evident when we examine the origins of the 20th-century population explosion and its causes.

[thorny steeple]

"The Quran of Muslim was writed by their last prophet which is proven that he didn’t know to write or read"

If I told you I'm going to write a book, but then told you I cannot write or read, what must you conclude?

Either:

a) I am being dishonest
b) I am having someone else write for me
c) I am channelling a supernatural entity/being

If you think C, you're cherry-picking by filtering out the far, far more reasonable and likely of possibilities (a or b), while allowing your cognitive biases to lean you firmly towards that which appeals to your belief. This isn't reasonable, I would argue.

If you think A or B, you therefore question your own assertion.

[hot galleon]

Yes

[fathom vine]

Abou the food correct me bcz im not sure.
I have heard that Israel have a technology to raise vegetables or trees in desert . Dont know if thats true or maybe just was any fake news.

[silver hill]

You can grow in many areas that present disadvantages, there's technology for it, but I haven't heard about Israel, I will do a research on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COCdLTX5jmk&ab_channel=Israel

[fathom vine]

But what do you think all that knowledge on the book.
Was it really possible to be writen by people on those years ? I mean watching how they lived and the lack of knowledge the had . Could it be possible to write that book. Because there are things on it pretty interesting and things that just the latte years Sience has proven too?

[vale ledge]

the bilionaire are not a homogeneous group of people with the same interesse they are all in competition and the interesse is rarely to make à population poor it’s even the opposite the majority have interesse in increasse the consommation

[dense agate]

This raises an interesting question: should we actively address these technological challenges? while it may seem apparent that solving issues in food production through technology is a positive step, it also increases our dependence on it. imagine if a groundbreaking invention eradicates existing famines, our population could then surpass the earth's sustainable limits. This not only deepens our reliance on technology but also increases the potential consequences should it encounter a downfall.

[thorny steeple]

These experiences you say you've had, remind me of how humans have a strong tendency to interpret meaningful patterns from random data, like seeing a religious figure, shape, or pattern in the clouds. This is known as pareidolia, a form of apophenia.

In-fact, regarding religious discourse, I've so far observed 10 very common logical fallacies engaged in by religious people. While this doesn't mean the conclusion or any of the premises are separately necessarily incorrect, I feel it correlates strongly with my understanding that religious belief is flawed in logic and reason.

Not to say non-religious people never use logical fallacies. If anything, this is an example of a flawed argument on my side of the debate. However, I wanted to illustrate the flaws.

[dense agate]

that's not only in israel, it's already in other MENA countries, but it's water intensive.

[fathom vine]

Have heard that Israel government said that they will tell the Middle East how to do it but they have to agree on peace .
But i don’t believe it i think corporations don’t allow it because there is a lot of land that is covered in desert all that producing woul hurt them.

[thorny steeple]

To what knowledge are you referring? This also makes me think of some people's tendency to assume aliens built the pyramids, simply because we cannot fathom how ancient Egyptians built them all those years ago. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean we must fill in the gaps of knowledge with God — or aliens, as in this case.

[silver hill]

Thats exactly why Brazilian people have over 70 billion in credit debt because billionaires want people to live in over-consumption, so no doubt they want to keep the mass to so does the government, it is easy to control and get votes

[vale ledge]

The state have 70 billion ?

[silver hill]

No, the people are in debt, not the state

[gaunt bronze]

Ooo, what's this debate on?

[dense agate]

half truth here, other Middle eastern countries have access to it, but israel continues to be ahead on these technologies, But agriculture technology was relevant in the Sudan-Israel peace deal

[silver hill]

Yes, but dont you think we are already dependent on technology? Earth has a limit to producing anything she does, plants, metal whatever

[vale ledge]

Because france have 3 000 billion in debts

[gaunt bronze]

A lot of countries are in quite a bit of debt.

[fathom vine]

This a good point .

I think there is explained how a baby is born with details (im a Muslim but to say the truth not reading that much) more based on conversations i had .
But u still have a good point that if we dont know today how its done we cant asume it was aliens or any supernatural power.
More wanted to know your opinion I can’t debate because i dont know much on it.

[hot galleon]

Yes, I live in France and I confirm that

[silver hill]

It would be really adorable to see, they agreeing, but I dont believe it would happen, honestly

[dense agate]

i don't think we reached it, but it a limitation certainly exists, you can't have an infinite growth in a finite world.

[silver hill]

I am not sure how much Brazil as a country has in debt... But the population has over 70 billion, which is crazy

[gaunt bronze]

Canada alone is nearly in 1.4 trillion dollars worth of debt.

[fathom vine]

Yes but i think its just an exuse to not release it.
Sience can be wayyyy ahead than we know .

[gaunt bronze]

And the U.S. is like 28 trillion.

[fathom vine]

70 billion i think is way more than that

[vale ledge]

Not realy that not huge for 214 million people

[fathom vine]

It in trillions

[gaunt bronze]

Brazil's total debt is around Canada's.

[dense agate]

unlike most of countries, American debt is in the currency they control which is the US dollar, they can always print more, at the cost of inflation ofc.

[silver hill]

It's like the amount of trash we produce... Or how much we are consuming from Earth's natural resources, America, and Dubai have spent all their part in the first three months...

[silver hill]

true

[vale ledge]

No even the us don’t have a debts so high

[gaunt bronze]

Oh yes, monetary sovereignty. However, it's not a solution without potentially adverse effects.

[fathom vine]

It was for the world.

[silver hill]

But its true, you can research it

[gaunt bronze]

It does!

[fathom vine]

Are u from Germany?

[thorny steeple]

I appreciate you meeting me some of the way, and that you honestly considered your argument.

A baby is born with instinct, if that's what you're referring to. It's why you can place a baby in water and it will not simply immediately drown. Not that I recommend testing this out for yourself. 😆 As I understand it, it's down to evolution, although I'm not so familiar with that aspect of it. If you're interested, have a look at some Richard Dawkins' videos on YouTube. Richard's an evolutionary biologist, so he's well versed on this topic. However, he's quite aggressive in his stance against religious belief, so you'll want to try to separate your thoughts from your emotions to properly and earnestly consider his words.

[gaunt bronze]

The total debt of the U.S. is nearly 34 trillion (https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-debt/).

[gaunt bronze]

Canada.

[vale ledge]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

[gaunt bronze]

God, the U.S. is on a league of its own.

[vale ledge]

Bresil is a at 1.5 trillion

[dense agate]

yeah there are some serious wealth disparities between global north and global south, but no solution on the horizon for this so far.

[gaunt bronze]

I don't think there's ever going to be 'a solution', it's too big of a problem.

[fathom vine]

Thanks for the suggestion i will look into it. And i think im in the middle of “Sience” and religion having one foot in one side and one in the other side . Because both have good points watching debates of well known people in both sides.

[gaunt bronze]

A lot is happening though, and we've got to continue on that path. Although, more can be done.

[dense agate]

true, but they face less pressure than other nations that must sustain a consistent inflow of foreign currency to meet their debt obligations.

[gaunt bronze]

100%, we actually were talking a little about international debt and monetary systems around the world in business.

[thorny steeple]

I feel that for someone to even be willing to attempt to challenge or question such beliefs — especially ones presumably so close to his or her core beliefs — is admirable.

I also recommend Christopher Hitchens.

[fathom vine]

I think questioning things even what u believe it can lead u to learn more about it.
There are times where i play role of an atheist on a debate with Religious people because they will try harder to convince you with arguments. That way u can learn more about it if u interested.

But i can’t argue with someone in the other side because i dont know much about religion to come with arguments and logically things.

[thorny steeple]

That's awesome. Playing devil's advocate, if you'll forgive the word choice, is a great way to challenge your own beliefs and to engage in critical thinking without the emotional attachment.

[fathom vine]

Exactly. I think the emotional attachment is what keeps people not learning more about something.
They just decide to blindly belive into something without question it. Probably most of them are afraid also. Going very deep into religions it makes you fear more and more God in the sense of u can’t argue hem or denie hem in any moment

Also im trying my best with my English 😅

[vale ledge]

Brezil have 1.5 trilion in debt so 71% of gdp 6,925 per capita in us dolar
Usa is 98 000 per capita and 122% of gdp

[silver hill]

Its Brazilian citizens, not the government, it is personal debt in credit card

[vale ledge]

Can you give me the average ?

[fathom vine]

I suggest you the podcast of Jordan Peterson with Muhamed Hijab they have some good conversations there about people thinking or about how their emotional atchments lead people (haven’t watched it full yet)

[vale ledge]

And the mediane ?

[thorny steeple]

Your English seems really good, especially given the aggressive vocabulary and grammar in my English in this discussion. I'm impressed you've kept up. If I had this debate in German, I would've failed at hello. 😄

And yes, I mostly agree with what you've said. It can also be a problem when people identify with a belief, so they hold it tight and get defensive, upset, and/or angry when it's challenged. Same goes for a core belief.

A core belief might be discovered by questioning your belief. Let's take your religious belief, and I'll guess, as I suspect this is common.

It'll get closer to the core belief, as I isolate the belief further.

1. I'm religious.
2. I'm a good person.
3. I must be a good person. <-- core belief

It didn't take long to get to what I feel is probably a very common core belief, which I think we perhaps almost all have. Most of us, if not all of us, just want to be good. Even many bad people doing bad things think they're good. Hitler, for example, committed many atrocities, but I suspect he felt morally justified, perhaps he felt he was making Germany a better place. Utterly ridiculous, of course. 😆

[fathom vine]

Well often i argue mostly Muslims because there i have an interst of learning.
But the problem is that 99% not saying 100% leaving a little bit of hope. They all are the 1-Im religious.

Than not agreeing with them their conversation lead to “judgement “ they start judging u.(judging is also wrong in Islam)

I think there is the part where “fear enter” fear or dening God and being afraid of questioning it.

I dont know if other Religions are like this bcz I didn’t had any oportiunity to talk with any religious christian.

[silver hill]

Brazil has more credit cards than inhabitants
Brazil ended July 2023 with 71.4 million consumers in default; cards are the main reasons.

https://consumidormoderno.com.br/2023/10/05/cartoes-credito-debito/

[formal scaffold]

As a Muslim I can confirm this

[silver hill]

They said the average is 5.6 thousand

[fathom vine]

Well should it be our religion that fear us so much that we blindly believe on it and being afraid to question the God?
Or all religions are mostly like this?

[gloomy raven]

Guys!

[vale ledge]

That high for a contry with this gdp per capita

[formal scaffold]

if I follow a relegion completly blind than I'm a fool, faith and believe aren't certeinty so therefore they have sm doubts, and muslim choses to deny the doubt instead of questioning it, more like if your wife do smth suspicious and you chose to trust her rather than investigating her doing

[gloomy raven]

What sould I make in Blender 3d?

[formal scaffold]

Make me a frog

[gloomy raven]

ight

bet

[formal scaffold]

The issue with muslims is compared to other relgions they claim perfection more, and that's why when people discuss with them instead of speaking about the good parts of islam they target the bad parts of it to deny the perfection claim

[gaunt bronze]

I feel like there's someone who does that for any category of people.

[fathom vine]

Well this lead to something I debated with an Muslim and he wasn’t happy about it.

I think going and investing that much time in religion they have left behind education. Wich is one of the reasons Middle east is suffering . Beliveg blindly and their leaders also use that advantage to keep them in their lowest with the word “This world is temporarily we should prepare for next life”

[gloomy raven]

also i do not have a textrue pack to color the frog so yea

[formal scaffold]

dw about it a gray one will do

[gloomy raven]

ight

[silver hill]

yes, it is. The worst thing is that now brazilian wants to have american lifestyle

[fathom vine]

They are more type of blind believe than actually believing with their logical or heart . Dont know if I explained what I tryed to say

[thorny steeple]

"Well often i argue mostly Muslims because there i have an interst of learning.
But the problem is that 99% not saying 100% leaving a little bit of hope. They all are the 1-Im religious."

Sorry, can you please rephrase this? I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

I've noticed a lot of judgement in religious debate. I don't think judgement is inherently wrong, as judging others is a result of evolution. We learned to judge things like potential danger, which kept us alive. But when judgement turns to abuse, it becomes a problem, IMO.

And I won't pretend I never judge either, because of course I do. I try to remember the principle of charity and I try to simply be compassionate, but it's an ongoing battle I have in my head and heart between logic and compassion. How I try to avoid conflicts of thought and emotion is to simply focus strictly on the logic. Hence why my whole writing style changed, because I'm filtering out emotive language, being (hopefully) accurate with what I say, and using language I feel is befitting a debate.

[vale ledge]

Without spending a lot of resources in education i suppose

[silver hill]

you are right

[sonic lion]

we have bad education on purpose

it’s a political project

[gaunt bronze]

What?!

[sonic lion]

politics 😍

[gaunt bronze]

Could I hear more?

[vale ledge]

High corruption who don’t give the éducation the money it need ?

[formal scaffold]

I get it, I agree most people believe blindly or follow their enivronement norms and beliefs I bet you and me are under that influence too, but to say all muslim believe blindly in islam? that's quiet the claim and I'd challenge it by saying muslims do study charia and fiqh trying to understand the commands in quran decipher grasp the good and bad of it and compare it, the only thing they don't question is things they tried to but failed in finding a proper answer to it so they choose beliving in god so their study is limited sure, but it's infinite,

[silver hill]

I agree 👍

[sonic lion]

basically, basic education is scrapped because it function as a social filter. therefore, not only they sustain privet education and keep poor people out of the way working as cheap labor

[gaunt bronze]

There's probably places where education is used as a political means (sure, someone could argue that education teaching us that Hitler is bad, or that the Soviet Union and communism are bad, is a political projection), but here in Canada, I don't exactly think there's any sort of intentional political influence.

[sonic lion]

more then that

[formal scaffold]

example: "Iron came from outer space" quran claimed that and muslims scholars believed blindly in it even tho there was no proof of it, and it sounded a bit silly, since it's well known back then that iron is mined from deeper places in earth.

when there's no opposite certeinty belief is the safest choice for a muslim ig

[thorny steeple]

"but to say all muslim believe blindly in islam? that's quiet the claim and I'd challenge it by saying muslims do study [...]"

What you're leaving out here, is that all of these studies hinge upon faith. That is, belief in the absence of sufficient evidence. Therefore, this doesn't challenge the claim, it subverts it.

[fathom vine]

They insist at -Im Muslim and very religious which lead them to the point that they are right and ur forced to believe what he say and what religion says without questioning ( and it links with the other part of what i was saying)

I hope u understand what im trying to say because can’t explain it better

[gaunt bronze]

Education disparities really do seem inevitable, and they are a thing. But honestly, many countries have pretty robust education systems that try to make you help the poor and try to make you effective and prosperous. A lot of countries also have education regardless of anyone's socioeconomic status. Additionally, a lot of countries also provide international aid related to education.

It is almost recognised globally that education is a superpower!

[formal scaffold]

I did since it's not the main topic here

and i wasn't challenged

[gaunt bronze]

Not having an educated society is much more useless compared to an educated one.

[sonic lion]

Nobody is arguing against education

[gaunt bronze]

Oops. That's partially what I thought since 'basic education is scrapped...'

[vale ledge]

that more complicated than that the creation of a real education système cost a lot of money and works this is not a thing that can be donne easily and the moderne économie need labor with a certaine level and wealth
it’s the principe of fordism the workers need money to buys the product

[fathom vine]

About the judgment it is wrong because in Islam u cant be the Judge of God and say “u will go to hell”.
Thats where is the abuse of power (always speaking on what their belive) an in their mind they have learned that is and abuse of the power of someone else.

[vale ledge]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism

[gaunt bronze]

I don't think 'basic education is scrapped because it functions as a social filter.'

[formal scaffold]

true

[sonic lion]

Sorry, I’m not native, I meant that the government purposely deteriorated the education by a lot of means. The word that I meant to use in portuguese is ‘sucateamento’ which I thought translated to scrape

[sonic lion]

Dude the money necessary to make education better is NOTHING for the government, they eat it for breakfast

Is deeper then that

[formal scaffold]

to summarize belief is a choice really, you don't need proofs to believe bc it won't be a belief anymore it'll be knowledge instead, to believe you need signes, and you are not blindly believing if you close your eyes on few exception and studying and analysing the majority of it

[fathom vine]

Dont get me wrong when I say all we speak in general. And for the population like me and you .

[thorny steeple]

It sounds like you're being religiously dictated to. As though you're being told what to believe and how to believe it. Perhaps naively (of me), I think you have the freedom to choose your belief, even if you don't have the freedom to share your choice of belief.

[formal scaffold]

I gave my conclusion if u got any other question or you are curious to know smth from a muslim pov I might be able to help @fathom vine

[vale ledge]

How many money do you think is necessary to create a true education system ? this is way out of reach of the politiciens

[gaunt bronze]

Oh, it's fine. Sorry.

I still don't think most governments try to purposefully deteriorate education. What evidence of that is there? There are many examples of governments trying to improve education, not break it further. For example, in Canada there's constantly the review of curriculums (and it's not like one government has all the say in education). And, Canada's also been providing humanitarian aid, including for education.

[thorny steeple]

I've really enjoyed the debate, and found it interesting and good practice. Thanks. But I have to go to bed, now! 😆 Night, all.

[vale ledge]

France spend 170 bilion per year in the éducation and we are 60 million not 200

[gaunt bronze]

Canada spends almost 82 billion on education yearly.

[fathom vine]

Isnt that the way how religion its starts to people?? Being told what to believe and how to believe.
But i think the best thing that is happening to me is questioning it . It can lead to learn more and get closer to it or going to core beliefs

[gaunt bronze]

The amount spent increases by like two to four billion per year.

[thorny steeple]

Exactly!

OK, now I'm off. 😄

[fathom vine]

Anyway good night

[fathom vine]

It was just a debate in general. Is not something specific that im questioning

Mostly about people but also learning more when u question it

[vale ledge]

You have to paye to enter university ?

[gaunt bronze]

Yes.

[sonic lion]

They recently implemented a new high school which is worse ‘cause it increases the hours and they filled it with useless subjects that teachers are not even trained to teach. Plus being a teacher is one of the hardest ways of being poor here, since the salary is so low and they go on strike like every year and it never changes. Plus this only applies to public schools btw. But public universities are the best but poor people are not able to get in them mostly since they’re years behind because of all I said, so they either work or pay for college (for worse education and no opportunities after)

It’s all fucked up

[young wasp]

Are you talking about Brazil?
Because that's exactly the situation here. And I have to agree that there's a design to deteriorate public education.

[sonic lion]

Yes i am!

This mf was saying that every government tries to improve education

It’s so naïve

[thorny steeple]

cuties

hello

[tawny shore]

Hello!

[keen crag]

😂

[warm berry]

Good dawn 🥱, this was the first thing i saw while entering this conversation. And while it makes no sense to state a point in an already ended debate i'm just giving samples on how some governments bad management are as equally bad as if they purposefully wanted to break its own education. In Brazil's public schools for example, there are so many flaws on Infrastructure, directory maintenance and basic discipline and education, that it is really easy to find various schools that lack at least one of these, if not all. But again... It doesn't really matter how much this problematic can improve, nothing will happen if people are unninterested, even though improvements, and serious planned investments can catch people with talent, passion and will. Which isn't a thing i have been seeing much lately around here, have a good night! Or morning 🌅!

[sonic lion]

And that’s on basic education

Don’t let me start on science

Being a researcher in Brazil is career suicide

[valid flare]

why?

[warm berry]

There are aren't that many vacancies for researches to apply to. They either have to rely onto universities that are at least interested on what they plan to do, or just get out of the country. This gets even worse as you get far from the most economic richest regions, such as the southeast and south in general

[valid flare]

ah that sucks

[warm berry]

Yeah, and no one wants to be the pioneer on this, if they try the lack of resources is the easiest explanation on how it's best for them to just stop, and if the government tries to motivate people on this no one's interested anymore. It just stays on this limbo

[sonic lion]

Yeah. And you have no benefits. After two years you’re unemployed and have to immediately search for another scholarship

And the salary is so low for such hard work

[lavish finch]

Meat grinder

Exploitation

[warm berry]

So the only escape is just trying to apply for a public service vacancy, since they are just blinded by whoever wants to take them down, is good, but y'know... Doesn't really make the country grow..

[ashen moss]

Hi

[warm berry]

Hii

[lavish finch]

I want more people to work together against exploitation rather than just seek to escape it personally.

[sonic lion]

Me too

How tho

I wanted to joy one party here but it’s super hard to get in

[lavish finch]

What party?

[sonic lion]

I mean how are you fighting the system without the mass

[warm berry]

It feels like hunger games, whoever takes the resource first gets the advantage and if they lose it they're either broke or doomed.

[sonic lion]

The brazilian communist party

[lavish finch]

You need the masses

[sonic lion]

like brave new world too

[lavish finch]

Like history

[sonic lion]

Yeah

[warm berry]

Things have become much like a circus. Good night everyone, i'm → 🛏️

[lavish finch]

Maybe always been that way

How is the Brazilian communist party?

[craggy sphinx]

I don't think you can assert. It also means that you are confident about it.

you have knowledge of testimonial, which means that you accept everything that is given to you without "doubt"

[lusty zenith]

@forest raptor what happened to the Wordsmith channel? Is it dead

[thorny steeple]

Do you mean I can't assert, or that one can't assert? Neither one is true, because anyone can assert something. Yes, an assertion implies confidence, which is why I used the word.

Whose testimonial and in what context? Testimonial for their religious belief? I'm not sure what you mean. It's not true that I accept everything that is given to me without doubt simply because I hear a testimonial; in-fact, by my understanding, that's the crux of the issue of theistic religious belief; it's generally based on the testimonies of people in books and the many people claiming to have experiences.

[thorny steeple]

it's difficult to answer 'cause it's generalistic. I need specifics.

[craggy sphinx]

so you want to say that you are never wrong?

you incorrectly defined the word "assert" to assert means to be 100% sure of it, to know it. I doubt you know this.

Testimonial means that you accept it without having any evidence. For example, the universe is a big bang effect.

do you accept that 1 + 1 = 2?

or other empirical data

@thorny steeple hello

[thorny steeple]

ah. I see the chat is filled with some opposing claims to the Islamic teachings. I only managed to read two among the tons of messages above, so I'm attempting to refute them.

for the idea that Islam claims "perfection", that's a big misconception. Islam claims righteousness. if you read the Quran, Allah clearly states "...of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive..." [Quran 3:7], the existence of elusive (vague) verses in Islam is intentional, so Islam doesn't claim perfection in the sense that everything should be remotely understandable. if "perfection" is used to imply infallibility, then yes. Islam does assert its infallibility, that is, the quality of not having mistakes, contradictions, or misinformation.

for the idea that Islam hinders the advancement of Islamic countries due to the obligation that we need to learn Islamic fields of science instead of other fields of science, is also a misconception. in Islam, you don't have to learn everything there is about Islam to be a good Muslim, in fact, it's nearly impossible to learn that much. only a foundation of essential knowledge empowers you to live your life properly, and the more you learn that better you become, just like the case with other scientific fields, such as biology. you learn the basics in order to live your life properly.

[craggy sphinx]

is this book absolutely perfect?

[thorny steeple]

Hello Eisan, how is it going my friend. 👋

[thorny steeple]

depends on what do you mean by perfect.

(definitely not being Jordan Peterson here xD)

If by 'perfect' you mean flawless, free from errors, contradictions, or misinformation, then yes, it is perfect in that sense.

[craggy sphinx]

so many years have passed and it has not been distorted

[forest raptor]

Nothing happened, I've just been extremely busy, so we haven't had the time to post exercises

[thorny steeple]

true.

[craggy sphinx]

I'm great. U?

[craggy sphinx]

how can this be proven?

[thorny steeple]

can't complain. everything is going fine.

[thorny steeple]

there are so many means in which, we Muslims, preserve the religion, one of them being the chains of narration.

that applies on the Quran, as well as, Hadith and Sunnah.

[craggy sphinx]

they memorized, but is it possible that they accurately conveyed it?

[thorny steeple]

one big misconception people tend to have is that Quran, Hadith, and Sunnah are preserved through books, while it contributes a little in preserving Islam, is not the main process. Islam is preserved by individuals who memorize and pass down knowledge to the following generations.

[thorny steeple]

yes. that's 'cause if you have many sources in which the same exact thing is stated, it's a proof of preservation and accuracy.

also there are fields of science in Islam in which scholars examine the accuracy of Islamic information.

for instance, Biographical evaluation, or "Science of Narrators" if it's to be literally translated from Arabic.

[lusty zenith]

I meant that the channel is gone

[forest raptor]

The channel is still accessible to me, and the you still have the role, so idk why you can't see it.

[lusty zenith]

Ping me there please

[forest raptor]

Done

[static pivot]

Goodmornyan everynyan! Reason must control the emotions, the emotions must not control reason, but what if your reasoning is built off your emotions, then who controls who? Old English is just nail designs but for men. I will not elaborate. Butteflies > bees. (Need both). GSTQ!

[thorny steeple]

I think there's been a misunderstanding, or several. I would assume it's a given that I am more than capable of being wrong, as is everyone, so, no, I certainly don't want to say, nor have I ever said, that I'm "never wrong". You may have misunderstood what I meant when I presented the word 'assert' to someone in my earlier conversation with others. I'm not even sure why you're targetting the meaning of the word at me, since I was addressing someone else's assertion(s).

You seem to insist on telling me what assert means, despite me telling you I know what it means, despite me defining its use to you several times, and despite it being almost entirely irrelevant to the topic. It was meant in the context of a confident, bold, and forceful statement or declaration, usually as though something were a concrete fact, and often without evidence or an attempt at proof. IE: "God is real."

I'm going to have to disengage from this discussion, because I feel it's an unproductive red herring; we seem to be spinning our wheels in the dirt going back and forth on semantics, which is almost entirely irrelevant to any of the discussions on religion that I've had here, and admittedly quite frustrating.

[craggy sphinx]

sorry , but I don't think you understand

[thorny steeple]

@thorny steeple Hey my friend. 👋
I rolled back your discussion with @craggy sphinx and found you saying "The hypocrisy of this is that we also created religious belief. After all, humans hands wrote the scriptures on which we largely continue to base religious belief.", so I'm wondering. religions are man-made, because their scriptures were written down by humans, is that what you were trying to imply?

[craggy sphinx]

I don’t think that if they write the same thing everywhere, then this proves its authenticity

what I mean? I think that at some point the information could have been conveyed incorrectly, and other newly arrived writings began to overlap with this omission.

subsequently this was taken for granted, not noticing that a mistake had once been made.

[thorny steeple]

Yes. There was a flaw in my argument, because it assumed there wasn't a non-human influence to the writing of the scripture (e.g., God), which I believe I also included after the argument.

[craggy sphinx]

Humans are subjective creatures, which means they can make mistakes

hello

[thorny steeple]

alright, let's imagine that I said "working out is healthy", now you, OSM, James Green heard this statement. later you, OSM, James Green began to pass it down generations, where the names in the chains of transmission are well-known, and we have their biographies. wouldn't we know if the chain of transmission has any overlap? and what about the other chains that didn't overlap?
for the sake of the argument, let's assume they all overlapped, does that mean the statement was altered or changed? especially given that we know almost everything about all the narrators in the chain, and we know who makes modifications and who doesn't.
if the future generations end up with the same exact statement, it's a proof that it has been preserved throughout, let's say, history.

[craggy sphinx]

how do you know that these people were able to convey it accurately?

[craggy sphinx]

overlapped, I mean someone could have misinterpreted it. no one noticed it afterwards

[thorny steeple]

This seems sound. Granted, unless there's a substantially reliable method of proving the transcription true, we can't even call this a certainty. Unfortunately, ancient writers of things like scripture didn't have things like the hashing and signatures we have in computers today, so just how sure can we be that things transpired as they're written? Even with our comparatively advanced technology, we can't always be 100% sure that the data we see is true.

It's like the whole Socrates thing. Ancient Greek philosopher who paved the way for western philosophy. Plato, his student, recorded several discussions between Socrates and others, known as Plato's Dialogues. However, this is still simply according to Plato. It's still unknown whether Socrates was in-fact a real person or was as Plato transcribed in his Dialogues. It's possible, for example, that Socrates was a colossal jerk, but that Plato liked him so much he wanted people to see him as a wise and kind man.

When it comes to religious scripture and other ancient writings, I think all we truly have are echos from the past.

[thorny steeple]

There's even context of the time and events to consider. One of Plato's Dialogues called Plato's Apology is a transcription of the events in court (Athens, Greece), where Socrates defended himself against charges of misleading the youth and impiety. He was unfortunately sentenced to death, despite his verbose and valid argumentation and opportunity to forgo death by abandoning his practices and philosophy — he admirably chose to stay true to himself, even if that meant death. Anyway, if you consider the context of him defending himself in court, it does raise the question whether he was sincere in all he said, or whether he was simply appealing to the court for his own agenda.

[thorny steeple]

there are certain criteria in which an Islamic statement or declaration is deemd "Sahih" (correct, right, trustworthy), those are:

1. credibility of the narrators, including their, sanity, trustworthiness, etc... .
2. free from odd, and weird reports, meaning that it should be sound, consistent, and doesn't contradictions stronger statements.
3. the connectivity of the chain of transmission, or the chain of narration, in which each narrator took the statement from who's above him.
4. free from any unknown issue in the chain of transmission, such as unknown person within the chain of the transmission, etc...

these are not all, but sufficient criteria, that Islamic scholars depend on to decide the validity of certain statements.

in Islam, we have also degrees of validity and authenticity, you'll hear a lot the word "Sahih"(correct), "Hasaan" (good), "Munkar" (denied), "Da'eef" (weak) etc..., these terms are not to be taken literally, as they might sometimes mean something different than what people might think, there is also the highest degree of authenticity which is called "Mutawater", only statements that have been narrated by many sources that are not overlapping and are all "Sahih", are called "Mutawater" (frequent).

[craggy sphinx]

but you give me reasons. it's an endless cycle

let me give you arguments

’’’

1. Dissent – The uncertainty demonstrated by the differences of opinions among philosophers and people in general.

2. Progress ad infinitum – All proof rests on matters themselves in need of proof, and so on to infinity, i.e., the regress argument.

3. Relation – All things are changed as their relations become changed, or, as we look upon them from different points of view.

4. Assumption – The truth asserted is based on an unsupported assumption.

5. Circularity – The truth asserted involves a circularity of proofs ‘‘‘

[thorny steeple]

the Quran has this highest degree (Mutawater), meaning that it's been preserved with a tremendous amount of memorizers who memorized the Quran with precision and they all idential to one another, up until now, you'll find "Ejaza"s, these are the chain of transmissions in which each memorizer's signature is present, which can all be traced back to the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

[thorny steeple]

huh?

[harsh mountain]

[thorny steeple]

in Islam, narrators sign their signatures. of course, we have degrees of authenticity. the Quran possess the highest degree of reliability and authenticity, it's called "Tawator", meaning that a lot of different people memorized the Quran from the prophet himself, and this is where the chain of transmission begins for all of these different people, one memorizer teaches the other, 'till we reach a point where it's almost impossible that a verse is wrong or not accurate, and if one is found, it would be almost automatically corrected. we also have ancient manuscripts of the verses, which date back to the era of the prophet or his companions, confirming what the memorizers memorize the present-day.

[thorny steeple]

What do you think about french revoulıton and its politic results as a muslim?

[lavish finch]

Ah, the French Revolution

I’d love to talk about that.

[thorny steeple]

When I say signatures in computing, I'm not referring to simple hand-written signatures of one's name, but a digital signature, which is very different, usually involving encryption. That being said, I suppose you could have a written signature analysed to see if you can verify it's from the same person, although I'm not sure how reliable that is. Still, that is something I hadn't initially considered.

Are you leaving room for interpretation? Doesn't the scripture need to be interpreted? I might be thinking too much of religions like Christianity, as I don't honestly know much about Islamic faiths. It seems some things are taken literally and some things are interpreted based on how someone feels, sees, and translates the text. Consider this interpretive process occurring over thousands of years, and scripture being constantly rewritten, then ask yourself honestly how reliable it could be as a foundation of one's moral compass and sense of self in the world.

[craggy sphinx]

?

[thorny steeple]

me too but ı am wondering ıslamıc perception about revolutıon

[vale ledge]

Wich one ?

[thorny steeple]

general

OMG, too many questions. xD

I'll respond sometime later today guys, I have a project that I'm working on and I'm kind of late.

[maiden path]

we all have dreams, but it doesn't depend on how much you want, it depends on how much you strive for it, i'm gonna give you the best advice ever, WORK HARD.

[lavish finch]

But not everyone here is a muslim. And I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on the French revolution.

[maiden path]

have the exact same problem

[fathom vine]

I am(trying to learn more)but i dont actually know what is french revolution.

[craggy sphinx]

hello

[harsh mountain]

hey there

[lavish finch]

Please don't feel intimidated by the text if it's too much. I'm just providing a starting point for some possible directions for discussion.

Another interesting historic event was the Paris Commune.

[fathom vine]

I read it but not abble to answer in “Muslim response “ i have been raised in Albania and Religion is not such a big deal here. Also dont know what u seeking from it . So better to let it for someone that is more well known about Islam

Curious it too now

[lavish finch]

As I already said, I'm widening the question.

I'm curious what anyone thinks of the French Revolution, not only muslims.

But if you're interested in the relationship of the French Revolution to Islam, we can talk about that.

However, for ease, I think it would be helpful to look at each separately before starting to compare.

What aspect of either the French Revolution, or Islam, or their relevance to each other are you interested in?

[lavish finch]

I am challenging the idea of limiting our discussions only to people who "know about Islam".

This is a place for everyone to engage in discussions, not just people of one belief system.

I'm also challenging the idea that discussions be limited to people who adhere to a belief system. People who are not muslim can still have interesting things to say about Islam.

[craggy sphinx]

(leaving)

[thorny steeple]

What are we talking about here?

[lavish finch]

You know

And if you don't, it's easy to find out.

[fathom vine]

Its more like knowing what is their opinion on it can open a discussion . Wich im interested to read what it will lead on.
Because on my side I could close it faster . As an Albanian that is the best thing it happened because most of the time we was under occupation under kings rules and in the end under dictatorship rules.
Thats why i left it for Muslim opinions that come from Middle east it can open a bigger discussion and interesting one.
Muslim that have been born and raised in Europe they have more adopted the west culture.

[thorny steeple]

Why would I have asked, then

[lavish finch]

Especially since you're fluent.

[fathom vine]

And i think our belief is not that deeper and spiritual like Middle East Muslims have.

[thorny steeple]

Right.

[fathom vine]

Bro u can just scroll up find the beginning and catch on

[lavish finch]

We can hear their opinion. We can also hear the opinion of others.

Right now we're not hearing anyone's opinion on it, so that's why I suggest opening up the filter of who we want to hear from.

[fathom vine]

Not disagreeing with it ofcourse anyone can share their opinion

[thorny steeple]

"Bro", you can just give me a short answer, because I see stuff about Islam and I see stuff about the French revolution. I am just asking for some clarification to get what is being talked about. Are these two separate issues that we're discussing or are they interconnected somehow?

[lavish finch]

Welcome

Either or both.

[thorny steeple]

Alright, thanks

[thorny steeple]

My only understanding of the French revolution comes from what they taught me in school, so I doubt I could give my opinion on it without any bias.

[fathom vine]

Soo what u think .
Im more like a good listener so I could read and join here and there

[thorny steeple]

I mean, the last thing you said makes a lot of sense. Arab culture and Islam can be easily conflated, even though they are not exactly the same. We need to keep in mind that two people with the same religion might have vastly different cultures and interpretations of the religion

[fathom vine]

I agreed on it by taking my self as an example. Muslim of West doesn’t have that much deeper belief or spiritual like they do . So yeah there are diferent interpretations like u said

[thorny steeple]

I have a question. As a muslim, right, you believe that the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad as Allah described it to him, so they're the literal words of Allah, as I understand it. Am I right about this assertion?

[lavish finch]

(I'm leaving to join the live class starting now in #classes-announcements)

[brave zinc]

Yup

[thorny steeple]

Alright, I've always had this question in my mind when thinking about holy books and the claims of them being divinely inspired.

How can we derive any sense of direction or meaning from the words of the divine, if humans are inherently flawed in their interpretations and if God's wisdom is beyond the scope of human comprehension

How do we know what God means, is essentially what I'm asking

[brave zinc]

Well, I'd say that the wisdom that is in the Qur'an is not even remotely close to being beyond the scope of human comprehension.

[brave zinc]

Because what god means was revealed in Arabic, and Muslims happen to be good at that

[thorny steeple]

I don't believe that the language matters all that much. I don't think words in any language can accurately and exactly say what we want them to.

If I say anything, I might understand what I mean, but someone else might misinterpret these words to mean something else.

So how can we find out what God's intentions were with these words, when keeping in mind that humans can misinterpret anything

Therefore, how can we use this book, when we know that our interpretations might be flawed and might not be what is exactly the intention of the words

[thorny steeple]

We're talking about God, I think it's appropriate to keep in mind that He has his ways of communication with humans which are unmatched and the intention is human's welfare, then the sentences in the holy book are pretty much straightforward with it's language. Yes the literature is of very high form but this is 1400 year old religion and most things have already been broken down by scholars.

[brave zinc]

Why are you making the assumption that god bestowed upon Muslims a complicated message that he knew they wouldn't understand? Again, the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, and we are able to understand exactly what god means because 1️⃣ It's not complicated 2️⃣ We study Arabic to be able to understand it and there are even Arabic and Islamic scholars that explain the verses.

It's really not as convoluted as you believe it is.

That said, can your average Muslim misinterpret a verse? I sure did a couple of times, even though I spoke and were taught Arabic my whole life. That's why we have Arabic scholars that convene and come to a consensus as to what the verses mean. But I know what you're thinking: "How can you be so sure they haven't misinterpreted it?". I'd answer: Again, it's not that complicated and convoluted.

[thorny steeple]

Your second point raises another question. Why did God decide there should be a barrier of entry? If he really wanted everything to straightforward, as you claim. Then why is it

1. In Arabic, a language the majority of the world doesn't speak and

2. A specific kind of ancient Arabic that we need to be taught in order to understand.

This doesn't really adress my question either. We are taught what is supposed to be meant by other people, people who are flawed in their interpretations. How do we know that we are taught is actually what is meant?

We also see practically, that not every Muslim practices Islam the same way.
So, If it were really that straightforward, why do they practice Islam differently?

[deft latch]

Bro what is this chat?

Is it about disrespecting others religion?

[thorny steeple]

I don't think questioning why people hold certain beliefs is disrespect

[brave zinc]

What disrespect? The guy is asking questions in a very respectful way. He is just being curious.

[deft latch]

Sorry bruh .. didn't know .. I am new here ... Btw hru?

[brave zinc]

Why was the Qur'an revealed in Arabic? I got two answers for you:
1️⃣ Beats me.
2️⃣ You'd have to die --as a devout muslim-- and ask god yourself in the afterlife.

[brave zinc]

As for your second point, it's not a specific kind of ancient Arabic. It's literally just Arabic. It is no ancient.
And why is it an issue that the Qur'an was revealed in a language that had to be taught?
Everything has to be taught for you to understand everything. (I probably phrased this wrong, but I am counting on you to try and understand what I am trying to say).

It's not ancient because it is spoken in many Arab countries, and also because it is taught and greatly used in schools across the world --not only in the Middle east of Islamic countries.

[thorny steeple]

Are you saying that the Arabic language is the only language that hasn't changed whatsoever in the past 1400 years or so? If so, explain

If I read a Dutch text from the same age, I don't understand much

[deft latch]

Are all muslim women required to wear hijab?

[brave zinc]

We are taught what is supposed to be meant by other people, people who are flawed in their interpretations. How do we know that we are taught is actually what is meant?
"people" do not interpret anything. We are taught Arabic throughout school and, again, really, it is not phrased and worded in a convoluted way. If that's not enough, there are Islamic and Arabic scholars who spent their entire existence learning those fields to be able to provide us with "تفسير" which is Arabic for "explanation" or "Elucidation".
It is not that difficult to understand and interpret

[brave zinc]

After a girl reaches puberty, she is, yes.

[deft latch]

But I have seen many of them without wearing in usa ? .. so they aren't muslims?

[static pivot]

Who told you this?

[brave zinc]

The Arabic language has always and will always be the same --I don't know about other languages.
But that doesn't mean that some Arabic-speaking countries have different Arabic dialects. Many dialects, but the core (or the original language) is the same.

[brave zinc]

The're just not devout Muslims --nor religious.

[brave zinc]

That is as far as I am concerned. Let me double check real quick.

[static pivot]

There

Remember now

Remember forever

[brave zinc]

Okay I double checked and it is correct

[static pivot]

Nope

[brave zinc]

Sure buddy

[static pivot]

And it is not required

[brave zinc]

Sure buddy

[static pivot]

At all

Sure son

[thorny steeple]

I still don't understand why the Arabic needs to be taught to you and why there are people who are specifically specialized in this field when it's "not that difficult to understand". I would like it to be explained to me, why that wouldn't be contradictory

[brave zinc]

I understand your question

but it is what it is

[fathom vine]

Where are u based on this? Or just is what u think and it should be right?

[brave zinc]

So, you're saying that because one must learn the Arabic language in order to understand the Qur'an, that makes it not the true words of god?
What is an alternative? How to reveal a religion to humans if not through languages?

[thorny steeple]

This simply cannot be true, because dialects are proof of language change. Dialects cannot form if language doesn't change. Yes, you still call it Arabic, but it would simply not be true to say it has always been the same and it will never change. Because, dialects are proof of change happening

[brave zinc]

Dialects are not proof of change in the core language. Where did you get that claim from?

[static pivot]

Site the source where it says it's required

I said because in my country it's not required

[brave zinc]

You can mix tea + water + milk to make a cup of tea, but does that mean that tea has changed?

Or water or millk?

[fathom vine]

He already told u what it is written and how it should be.
Dont put countries on this because it’s totally another diferent thing.

[static pivot]

Show me where it is written

[brave zinc]

Don't waste your time with him. If he really wanted to find out, he could google. It is not even a controversial question.

[static pivot]

Man be respectful

Before I send you out from here

[fathom vine]

Disco can show you he looks like he know. My point is that countries doesn’t have anything to do with it

[brave zinc]

It's actually so uncontroversial that having a debate about whether or not it is required is futile.

[whole beacon]

As a muslim im confused 😕

[thorny steeple]

how is that similar in any way shape or form?

[brave zinc]

Go ahead mate. Show everyone what you're really made of. Everyone knows what abusing power makes you.

[fathom vine]

Abuse of power and threatening. He was respectful and who made u a mod here they should rethink it twice

[whole beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/i-want-u-to-be-banned-gif-13051109547748519557

[thorny steeple]

Yes, it is. That's how languages work. Italian, Spanish, French, etc. all come from Latin and they were once upon a time "dialects" of Latin. Latin has changed into dialects, and then these dialects became so dissimilar that we started to call them languages. In reality, in the linguistic sense, the difference between a dialect and a language is totally arbitrary.

[whole beacon]

Ur not equipped enough to lead a debate. Be respectful or just have the courtesy to be silent.

[fathom vine]

If u can’t handle a conversation don’t even start it. I mean u can discuss and “fight” with arguments and trying to learn or get more from what u asking.

[static pivot]

Buddy chill

Last time

[fathom vine]

Tell me the part of where i wasn’t respectful?

[brave zinc]

Listen, man. Just because different Arabic-speaking countries have different ways of speaking Arabic, that doesn't mean the original language has to change.

[static pivot]

You have to be respectful

[whole beacon]

I see u now throwing indirect offensive words. Don't play smart

[pearl quail]

Languages do change over time tho

[brave zinc]

I think you are confused as to who is the one being disrespectful here.

[whole beacon]

I am certainly not.

[brave zinc]

I wasn't implying that. But neither is @fathom vine

[whole beacon]

Then u must choose ur words wisely mate.

[static pivot]

Dude you're literally mad because you can't cite the source

[brave zinc]

What words? You are indeed confused as to who was being disrespectful and abusing their authority.

[static pivot]

Ok leave it and move on

[thorny steeple]

Listen man, it is a generally accepted fact in the study of language, that dialects are the result of language change. That's how we understand dialects to come about. So, you're plain wrong. It has to have been the case that the core-language of Arabic changed to give rise to the different dialects.

[whole beacon]

This is not a government, authority is such a silly word to use. Just chill and leave it. For god sake

[fathom vine]

So he deleted messages okay.

[brave zinc]

Authority only exists in governments?

[whole beacon]

How is that related?
That was a figure of speech.

[brave zinc]

Please cite a specific study that proves that the Arabic in which the Qur'an was revealed in 1400+ years ago does not exist today.

[orchid totem]

hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[hot galleon]

Who was banned ?

[fathom vine]

No one it was close to me without an explanation or without even talking or arguing about it

[orchid totem]

look this

crazy

This boy didn't include the woman's name on the property certificate.This woman accuses a boy of rape

Finally sentenced to three years in prison

[thorny steeple]

It does exist. It exists in the Qur'an and the Arabic used in the Qur'an is studied with regards to the Qur'an.
However, nobody speaks in the exact same Arabic anymore. They use their dialects for that, which came from the original Arabic. The general tendency of language is that it changes and diversifies, so Arabic would need to have been the only known exception to this rule, which is highly unlikely given that we don't have any other explanation of where dialects come from that don't involve phonetic drift and language change.

[brave zinc]

Could you please cite a study that proves that the Arabic used in the Qur'an cannot be studied and too outdated that it is neither used nor able to be learned, and that the Qur'an is worded in such a convoluted way, making the Qur'an impossible to be perfectly and completely understood?

I suggest you go ahead and learn the Arabic language, the history of Islam, then actually read the Qur'an before making claims and assumptions about a topic you do not fully understand.

[craggy sphinx]

hello
What does it mean to think abstractly?

[thorny steeple]

I never claimed that it could not be studied, and I never claimed that it could not be learned. I don't know where you got these ideas, and I will not provide proof, because that is a misinterpretation of my stance

[timber carbon]

https://soundcloud.com/prodsettle/skye-holland-underwater-settle-remix?si=868fce14c9fe453c85f9171ef28cd245&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

[deft latch]

Some people think Islam's main motive is to raise terrorist .. is it true?!?

[lime cypress]

i dont know anyone with that mindset

[brave zinc]

I suggest you go over the many messages you have sent because what you have been implying is along the lines of that.

[fathom vine]

Learn more about the meaning of “terrorist” word

U clearly dont know it

[brave zinc]

Fun fact: One of the countries that helped come up with a definition for the word "terrorism" is America. The world's colonial imperialist bully. The single country in the world that has bombed a mind-fucking amount of civilians --not only across the middle east.

[thorny steeple]

No, it's not. I said that humans can interpret things wrongly. And what you got out of what I said is a clear example of that.

[fathom vine]

And the fun fact is that they helped with the defenition of it and they made with media 80% of the world misunderstands the meaning of it .

And most of the people still dont know yet the meaning of it

[thorny steeple]

My question pertained to that. I asked because of the fact that humans have a tendency to misinterpret things (which is intuitively true), how we could possibly derive a clear meaning from a text.

[brave zinc]

If you have been following what's been happening on social media in the past couple of days, you'd be able to see just how many Americans, after reading Osama Bin Laden's letter to America, started to realise that there is a big chance that their country is the real terrorist, not the actual "terrorist" organization.

[fathom vine]

Well there is leaking so much information through their own agenda. Everyone already know the lies of Iraqi war. And now there are leaking information about Isis that it could have been created by USA just to have a reason to saty in middle east with her military

But as long as USA have “stupid” civilian that they are proud of their military and happy for what they have done. They will keep doing this unfortunately investing all that money in military and not in healthcare or education.

[brave zinc]

Is it not funny that even in 2023 there are some people that are brainwashed beyond redemption that they actually still think that Islam breeds terrorism and that it is the religion of terrorism?
Like, don't they have internet? Are they unable to think critically and question what they see an read on media outlets? Are they too lazy to do some digging into history?

All that is changing, though. People of the west are waking up.

[fathom vine]

“Stupid” not in the sense of insulting them but more in the way of delusional they deeper know it they just dont wanna accept and believe in them. Mod around here are pretty serious and easily offended (joke🤣)

[deft latch]

But ... Osama was muslim ... Bagdadi was muslim ...

[brave zinc]

And?

Is it justifiable to crash a plane into civilian buildings and kill civilians?

Absolutely not

[fathom vine]

They waking up slowly. They already lost faith on media and don’t follow them as much as before. I think podcast uncensored are doing a pretty good revolution.

[brave zinc]

But listen mate, if I had an actual whole week, I wouldn't be able to list all the absolutely mind-boggling and unhinged atrocities and bloodshed that America and other European countries have commited.

[deft latch]

But muslims are allowed to have more than one wife .. how will u justify this inhumane act I

[brave zinc]

Are you f-ing with me right now?

How is that related to our conversation

[fathom vine]

[brave zinc]

I have been alive for 23 years, and I have literally never seen a Muslim with more than 1 wife.

You must understand that it is very unlikely

It is very nuanced and not black and white as you may have been lead to believe

Men in the middle east are so poor they can barely* afford providing for one family.

[deft latch]

I am just clearing my doubts that have been induced to my mind since birth ... No need to get heated up

[fathom vine]

I think we found one of the “brainwashed” media product that is too laze to dig in deeper information and just goes by the title of newspapers

[brave zinc]

Don't worry, I am not heated up in the slightest.

[deft latch]

That's the right thing

[brave zinc]

I believe it should be a crime to make claims about such obvious topics with every piece of information imaginable is only a couple of keystrokes away. But hey, if someone prefers human interaction better than googling, I am happy to help.

[deft latch]

And what about day of judgement ,. When is it? Btw.. is it similar to Christianity day of judgement

[fathom vine]

Than it would be abused as power if it would be a crime. So better like this

[fathom vine]

I mean it would have certain people that would abuse for their benefits

[brave zinc]

We do not know the exact date on which the day of judgement will be taking place --we have "signs". I don't really know much about Christianity, so I'd rather not answer that part.

[fathom vine]

Answer to hem if discussion will be closed I would open a topic.

[deft latch]

Isee

[fathom vine]

Which im curious on it to know what u all think about the situation

[brave zinc]

But, as far as I am concerned, they definitely have a different belief in regards to exactly how the end of times is going to happen.

[deft latch]

So on the day of judgement ,, according to muslims ... Is ur god Allah going to punish all non muslims

[brave zinc]

Not all of them, only those who will have had the message of Islam conveyed to them and they refused to believe in Islam.
Heck, most Muslims are going to get punished as well --I hope I wont be among those.

[deft latch]

So a person who has been never exposed to Islam will not be punished ?

[fathom vine]

About that part i have heard that they would be judged by their “goods” and “bads” they have done

[brave zinc]

I am honestly not entirely sure, but if my memory serves me well, they don't. I'll have to do some digging.

[fathom vine]

Like a weight thing . It’s been long time so i have forgotten how they have explained exactly to me

[brave zinc]

Maybe, I am personally not sure and will have to look that up.

[fathom vine]

Well i have a question for everyone. Feel free to share opinion.

What is causing to people not believing anymore on media finally they have opened their eyes.Slow not yet fully open and what could it happen when we all will discover all those lies over the decades they have “feed” us.

[brave zinc]

@deft latch
{And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).}[Quran 17:15]
https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/82190/if-someone-never-heard-of-islam-will-they-go-to-hell

[fathom vine]

On my part is been few years that don’t even watch anymore tv . More watching podcasts that are uncensored but yes there still can be “lies” inside it but not as much as News have spread over global for decades

[sonic lion]

They’re both just entertainment

Don’t fool yourself

News and podcasts don’t make you any smarter

They just distract you

[fathom vine]

Yes ofcourse but both of them is not just entertaining. Their news can push u to bad. It can make u think of someone else as bad and cause a war.
It can make u go after any vacine and make u sick it has so many sides effects on population.

So is not just as entertainment is a mechanism in controlling people. But last years people are losing their faith on them and its slowly changing

[deft latch]

Ok broo

[sonic lion]

So does podcasts/youtube content dude

People becoming anti-vaccine bc of fake news

Spread on right wing youtube

But I also blame the government

For those dumb ass propagandas that didn’t even explain the science behind it

But yes, news are definitely worse

And entertainment (movies, social media etc) are also a mechanism of controlling people, besides being so lucrative

[dense agate]

it's a consequence of the internet, people spread misinformation either willingly or not, which causes people to become more polarized and radical to whatever ideology they belong. that's how you get movements like the anti-vaccine, and also get more people into the radical left/right wing

[sonic lion]

I disagree about the radical left

Not because I’m

But I think those are the people who actually talk about materialism

They see the reality around them and desperate want to change

While right wing people always turn radical because of conspiracy

[dense agate]

in what sense ? you don't think radicalization can exist in the left ?

[sonic lion]

No, I do think

However the motivation might be different

[dense agate]

sure, there are people who honestly want to make changes that they deem as positive, both left and right does, but they have never been so polarized like today, the difference between them ideologically has become too great

[sonic lion]

Never? I don’t know

I think people used to be way more radical in the 60s

And so on

[dense agate]

not really, i'll use the US as an example here since there is plenty of data about it, for most the 20th century polarization was almost never mentioned, their political fronts were usually united due to war and the cold war era (except for some disagreements about the neutrality act in ww2), but polarization started in the early 90s, that's when both parties started to shift away from each other.

[acoustic quarry]

What are you talking about?

[dense agate]

and it's not coincidence that the internet played a major rule on increasing polarization. You can easily share information through it, with little to no factchecking, plus posting about misinformation online is commonly used as in clickbaiting due to the amount of attraction it gets so many content creators won't shy from using it. making the internet a great source to get misinformed, but it also personalizes the content you see so it can align with your beliefs which can create echochambers where the misinformation can thrive since you're less likely to see a contrasting viewpoint

[dense agate]

how the internet can causes misinformation and how the latter can increase polarization of people

[acoustic quarry]

Okay intresting

[dense agate]

it is, especially since we can see it nowadays easily

[lavish finch]

Let's clarify the meaning of "radical". It means advocating for complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party. Therefore people on either the left or the right can be "radical" or extreme.

[acoustic quarry]

Does all social media recommend content according to the country?

or it is same for all

[lavish finch]

I don't think this is true. I think people are quite intelligent and make choices that make sense. The idea that the internet makes people stupid is a line of propaganda from a small group that wants to block the masses from talking freely to each other.

[dense agate]

yes, seeking substantial and fundamental changes to the existing social, economic, or political order and advocating for drastic reforms rather than incremental or gradual changes.

[dense agate]

by no means i made the argument that people are stupide, but even though humans are intelligent creatures, their rationality isn't always present in their decision making

[acoustic quarry]

I want to talk about ChatGPT

[lavish finch]

Ordinary people want to talk to each other and work things out. The real radicals, the ones who have hijacked our governments, want to bomb their opponents into submission.

[acoustic quarry]

Can ChatGPT solve all of the human problems?

[dense agate]

ideally, yes. people would try to find common ground and work things out, but when people are misinformed it only increases their polarization

making finding a common ground with the other political groups quiet the challenge

[acoustic quarry]

ChatGPT answer is While I can provide information, support, and assistance, solving all human problems requires a collaborative effort involving diverse skills, perspectives, and resources. I'm here to help within the scope of information and guidance.

[dense agate]

i don't think it has the innovation to solve serious problems

[lavish finch]

When people are pushed against the wall and blocked from other options they become extreme, of course.

[acoustic quarry]

How would be our life without internet?

[craggy sphinx]

?define critical thinking

[cursive bobcat]

:x: That word could not be found in the dictionary.

[acoustic quarry]

Do we have more positive or negative effects of internet?

[craggy sphinx]

?define critically

[cursive bobcat]

Word: critically

Definition (null): in a critical manner

Definition requested by eisanse

[lavish finch]

The dictionary bot is not good.

Google is much better.

[craggy sphinx]

hello Mr James Green

[dense agate]

well both parties are feeling the same way, that's why there are serious talks about censorship to curb misinformation.

[lavish finch]

No, I completely disagree.

Ordinary people are opposed to censorship.

And neither of the two parties represent ordinary people.

The government and their parties have lost legitimacy.

[dense agate]

what do you mean by Ordinary people ? these parties have representatives that are elected by the people

but i am against censorship, since there is absolutely no chance it won't be used in a biased way.

[lavish finch]

Yes, to be fair, people are now in favor of censorship because that has been beaten into them the last 20 years - a fear of information.

[dense agate]

what makes you feel this way ?

[lavish finch]

That's completely new.