elder-scrolls-lore

[uncut hatch]

He murdered ||N’gasta||

[quartz shuttle]

I mean, he killes the Imperial Governor and started a revolt...

[uncut hatch]

He became the hoonding too

Only for a bit

[quartz shuttle]

Maybe. Or part of the Hoonding

[sleek grove]

It'd be nice to hear about what he did after Redguard ended. Providing they are willing to share that info. At least we should get a tale about him or something idk

Probably a legend by now in some folk tales

[quartz shuttle]

I keep hoping they revive Eye of Argonia

[uncut hatch]

Man I wanted to know what happened when Tiber went to stros m’kai

[sleek grove]

If they did I'd like them to do a basic remake of Redguard for it. Put it on Gamepass too and then a whole new audience for the first title

Original Source code is lost apparently

[uncut hatch]

Nooooooo!

[sleek grove]

Same for Daggerfall and Arena too apparently

[quartz shuttle]

The game deserves a true remake anyway

Redguard was mechanically trash even when it came out

[sleek grove]

Redo the game to perform better, and less clunky combat

[uncut hatch]

I want the older games to be remade but I know that’ll never happen

[sleek grove]

Also better VA work

[uncut hatch]

Just want more people to know they exist

[golden sierra]

'twas confirmed by tuttle. which got him in trouble, but confirmed nonetheless

[quartz shuttle]

Fair enough

[sleek grove]

I'd love for them to do basic remakes/soft remasters of the classic 4 TES games. I say soft because no original source code ao it'd have to be a remake.

Introduce them on modern hardware which might be more appealing to new players

[uncut hatch]

Head canon, Naalalagus is what Tiber likes to call him

[uncut hatch]

Yea

[sleek grove]

They have the funds and studio that'd fund such a thing. But I do understand what Todd's stance on remakes are

Classic soft-Remakes of TES titles would be killer on Xbox and Windows. At least imo

[uncut hatch]

Same with the stance. I get it a lot

If I had to redraw a older drawing I made it would look soulless compared to the original flawed one

[sleek grove]

I'd be pushing my luck to suggest a TES Travels remake series

[robust lintel]

I know they got wards. But why not counter spells back at the user or any other enemy in the vicinity?

[brave shoal]

mage are old and dont have speed to insta cast as those young ones, so a ward is easier for them to keep up and do the same? (mostly written as a joke but who know lol)

[robust lintel]

Lol

I was thinking cause like maybe you could use that to deflect spells that you haven't learned yet or even other schools of magic you won't go into. Could also use it to deflect spells at the enemies allies to cause them to attack each other. Along with that, a spell stealer. Like if they have some annoying healer on their team, it would be cool to steal their spell buff and apply it to yourself or even deflect it to your allies to help them

Maybe a whole school of magic manipulation on mages besides just wards.., that'd really mess them up and their spells lol.

Even making their own spells backfire on them

[brave shoal]

but from a video game perspective, i way prefer putting a shield/ward to block spell than to have perfect timing to cast an interrupt/the right spell to counter the right school. i may love playing mage but i'm not a magic nerd to remember what shade of blue is destruction magic or alteration >.>

[plain ibex]

Dispel was a thing but it isn't the same...

[dusky scaffold]

There was spell reflection in TES 3 and 4
It's scraping in skyrim is a gander mechanics thing, not lore

[coral mantle]

dont wanna read the whole thing, buut magic in tamriel has no limits, only casters do \o/ spell reflection can be done

[plain ibex]

How did Big Head's legs change shape in a significant manner between the events of Morrowind and Oblivion?

[quartz shuttle]

The omnipotence of lazyness

[pastel sorrel]

They didn't, rather his head got smaller so the gravitational lensing isn't making them look distorted.

[plain ibex]

Ah, the Warp in the West, got it.

[dusky scaffold]

Game mechanics

[robust lintel]

I don't think they would make it that hard Herrius, lol. It was just a concept thought. I was just thinking of a sorta mage hunter/killer (besides the whole warrior vs. mage thing) that can manipulate their magic and turn it against them or their allies or steal it. Not simply spell reflections.

[brave shoal]

counter spell thing remind me of d&d actual counter spell spell or similar effect you can do when using right spell school to burn to counter same school spell opponent cast^^'

[robust lintel]

Oh I see. Yea that does sound a little more complicated in that respect. Maybe they could simplify it down, sounds cool in concept, but idk, it sounds like it could grow tedious as well in the way you described it. Depends how they would orient all that together and additional features to it.

Another thought. It could be like another faction/guild or just an enemy group that is strictly against forms of magic. Sort of mage bounty hunters, specifically trained and with spells (a different form of magic, like dark), abilities, combat (like some of what I described) to take them down. The idea just popped into my head from the group in Skyrim that hunted werewolves and killed Kodlak.

[brave shoal]

simplest way outside ward would be the classic interrupt ability/spell like world of warcraft use. someone cast a spell, you interrupt it with it. there soemthing similar in elder scroll online, got a spell on my sorcerer that stun anyone casting an ability (either magical or physical) but in second case,it easier since it a basic spam spell,so you bound to interrupt npc a lot by default

[robust lintel]

I remember something from Guild Wars that was kinda like that in a way. Mesmer?

[quartz shuttle]

The way magic works in TES doesn't really fit with Dispells that much. Too quick-fire in mody cases.

Active defenses like Wards are more applicable when someone can just fling a fireball with the flick of a wrist.

[robust lintel]

I guess its how you interpret and implement it. Like describing it that way does make it sound unfavorable. But like I said, why should going about it that way of having to have proper timing to catch a spell be the only solution or approach to it?

I was thinking more of spells you cast that have a lasting effect. If you want to deflect spells i think a magic net would be cool, instead of absorbing spells into magica, they stick to the net, so you could accumulate say 10 fireballs and then send them back all at once at an enemy

Casting magical trap cuffs on mages as well for a few secs, so any spells they cast backfires and damages themselves, even healing spells.

Thats just a very basic idea to describe what I'm trying to explain. Basically mage-killers/hunters. Specifically trained in the art against magic, even using it and twisting it to serve this purpose. Like dark druids or something, idk what'd you call/name them.

[ocean brook]

. . . why?

[quartz shuttle]

Mage Hunters seems simple enough.

Or just repurpose the Witchhunter concept

What I want is to see Nord Clevermen bring back the Elf Smashers

[ocean brook]

Elf Smashers?

[robust lintel]

My guess is they were trained in taking down elves or magical elves?

[quartz shuttle]

Traditional Nord method of dealing with Elves. You dig a hole, throw a bunch of elves in, and then a Clever Man levitates a big statue and drops it in the hole.

All the gooey bits create suction and helps keep the statue steady. Doubles as a great foundation.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgwDKpZ5c9es2uQ_gbEGrzxRFV0WzpDpyx_g&usqp=CAU

[robust lintel]

Didn't see that coming..

[ocean brook]

it's Tamriel. that's a bit merciful of the Nords; a giant statue would kill most of the elves quickly

[quartz shuttle]

Which probably means they'd only use them for women and children.

[ocean brook]

weary sigh

[robust lintel]

Short stack pancakes.

[quartz shuttle]

Nords are almost as horrible as the Ayleids were, all things said.

[ocean brook]

basically, everyone was horrible

[robust lintel]

Elf for an elf

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, but some were way worse than others

[ocean brook]

well, let's see

the Ayleids took things to such extremes, they got a Pelinal sicced on them

[robust lintel]

Give anything enough time and a little motivation and anyone is possible

[ocean brook]

the Chimer made war on their neighbors because Chimer despise neighbors, unless they make good slave stock

the Nords have been killing Elves ever since the sacking of Saarthal

[sleek grove]

The Falmer made a boo boo

[ocean brook]

the Redguards are so into their swords and their egos that they'll cut you up with the idea of a sword 🙂

[sleek grove]

Well Saarthal complicates who started it

but the Snow prince died to a child in a later war so

[robust lintel]

Snow Elves (Falmer) got experimented on, at least thats what Yzradlen tells me

[sleek grove]

Volunteer Experimentation

They agreed, well not all some fled to the Forgotten vale and had a happy 2000 years before the Twisted ones invaded and began to slaughter their own kind

[robust lintel]

Do you think they knew or were aware of the tiny bottom print?

[quartz shuttle]

It's pretty big print, based on Calcelmo's Stone

[sleek grove]

The Dwemer technically didn't lie, they said they don't believe in thanks or such

[robust lintel]

Maybe they already had vision problems to begin with? Lol

[quartz shuttle]

My theory is the Dwemer were trying to convert the Falmer

Ideologically. Take away their sight, so they can't trust their world view, and would come to understand the Dwemer's truth

The slave thing came later, after the Falmer refused that truth

[sleek grove]

They mention the 15 tones and Gelebor backs that up that mushrooms weren' the cause of what became of the Falmer. Falmer are suppose to be tall pale, amazing to look at mer.

Some Tonal resonator maybe?

[quartz shuttle]

The way i see it is... The Dwemer took them in, and the Falmer agreed to be blinded. The Dwemer hoped that, without their sight, the Falmer would recognise the lie of reality.

[sleek grove]

Also Falmer having basic weak souls, but Gelebor does have a full one

[quartz shuttle]

The Falmer rejected the Dwemer ideology, and created the statue in Irnkinhand in secret

[robust lintel]

Would having sight interfere with tonal manipulation?

[sleek grove]

Do we know what the Statue of the Prince's Eyes are made of?

[quartz shuttle]

Giant rubies, i beleive

[ocean brook]

the Dwemer had eyes

[sleek grove]

Tonal Manipulation has many applications, some we don't really know, but a chunk we do.

[quartz shuttle]

Meanwhile, the Dwemer had unlocked the secrets of Aetherium. But the working of Aetherium was dangerous, and had... Side effects. So teh Dwemer used the now enslaved Falmer to mine and refine Aetherium, the exposure degenerating them,

That's why the Falmer in the Forgotten Vale, who live above ground and away from the Aetherium, are becoming more intelligent.

[sleek grove]

That could make sence

idk how to explain the soul thing other than Dynamo cores fuel but

[quartz shuttle]

Soul mechanics are weird anyway

Black and White souls aren't clear. Some sources say they're based on Arkay, some say they're because the mages guild restricts certian spells

[robust lintel]

Do we see snow elves in the soul cairn? Just wondered

[sleek grove]

Do we know why outside Morrowind the Dwemer didn't use a Tonal area of activation? Similar thing to what Sotha Sil has in the Clockwork city iirc, his creations unless altered cannot leave the city.

[sleek grove]

Only two we see is Gelebor and his brother afaik

Gelebor gives us the whole thing about the Falmer coming in and attacking

[quartz shuttle]

And Gelebor may no longer be a Falmer

[sleek grove]

For now I'd say he is, as far as the game files are concerned too

[quartz shuttle]

His Detect reactions are weird

[sleek grove]

But we haven't seen anymore. However the Falmer invasion of the Vale has already happened by ESO

[quartz shuttle]

If memory serves, he doesn't show up to any Detect spells

[sleek grove]

Huh, I might have a reason. The race is incomplete

Beside what you see there is not many options

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. It could be a gameplay issue, and not like the Solitude mage

[sleek grove]

Can't wear anything other than the Ancient gear, and two eye types. although cut hairstyles

I used one in my mod and was disappointed, but was probably due to time restraints

Females are just an Altmer as far as I can tell, no unique skin or anything like the male body

[robust lintel]

You can't heal him either

[quartz shuttle]

Anyway, Gelebor does indicate that some other enclaves MAY ahve survived, but he doesn't know of them

[sleek grove]

I want to say the Dwarven Ballista in Dragonborn was rushed too, It's the only Animunculi summon in my mod that would crash your game after 3 summons

[robust lintel]

One of those open-ended non-endings..

[sleek grove]

I see it the same way as Dwemer, more can exist but they'll probably leave that to the modders for content

[quartz shuttle]

I dunno, i'm more on the Golden Skin thing

I also think the Numidium's Skeleton is made of Aetherium

[robust lintel]

Who knows, but there is a right time eventually

[sleek grove]

So my Falmer in my mod isn't from a tribe, but instead was saved in the Falmer invasion

[sleek grove]

Oh yea in the case of the majority, but a door by saying Yagrum is the last known in-game. There could be more just Yagrum never found them

[quartz shuttle]

True

[sleek grove]

Also Spectors but they are already dead lol

[quartz shuttle]

Here's what i want to know.

What the vehk is a Hobb?

[sleek grove]

I have no clue lol

[ocean brook]

Hobb? where is Hobb?

[quartz shuttle]

They appear int he novels

Weird little semi-intelligent, fireproof monkey things

[ocean brook]

sounds like someone's fever dream

[quartz shuttle]

lol

[dusky scaffold]

they appared on Umbriel, so I assume they're some kind of native to Clavicus Vile's Plane

[sleek grove]

I still want to know what a Gehenoth is

or an Icetribe member

[ocean brook]

https://www.google.com/search?q=hob+definition&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=vpL8YJ34A6yk_Qb7kpawBQ&oq=hobb+def&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMYADIECAAQCjIECC4QCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjIECAAQCjoHCAAQRxCwAzoHCAAQsAMQQzoTCC4QxwEQowIQsAMQyAMQQxCTAjoQCC4QxwEQowIQsAMQyAMQQzoKCAAQsQMQgwEQQzoNCC4QsQMQxwEQowIQQzoHCAAQyQMQQzoFCAAQkgM6AggAOgcIABCxAxBDSgUIOBIBMUoECEEYAFCUJliROWDiT2gBcAJ4AIABgQGIAdQEkgEDMC41mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBD8ABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

so two interesting points about 'hob' - it's referred to plates on stoves, tying into the whole "fireproof" bit, and it's referred to sprites or hobgoblins, which ties into "weird semi-intelligent fireproof monkeys"

[quartz shuttle]

Huh

[robust lintel]

Hobgoblins makes sense. They just sound like Bethesda's twisted version of Hobbs from the Fable series.

Just very long limbs and toothless mouths.

[quartz shuttle]

Or, they could totally be a creation of Umbriel it's self, like most of it's inhabitants

[sleek grove]

I never read the books, what happened to the City?

I need to but I've never found the time to sit and read them yet

[quartz shuttle]

it was transported away before it could fall on the Imperial City

[sleek grove]

oof

[quartz shuttle]

it ended up somewhere, surrounded by endless trees, and with a great tower in the distance

[sleek grove]

I know of 3 great towers on Tamriel, and one in Coldharbour but that's just a copy

[robust lintel]

Endless trees..

[sleek grove]

Black Marsh of what we've seen has lots of Trees

Some hist and some swamp

Valenwood has alot too

Imagine if it was dumped on Akavir

[gaunt bear]

Sorry to bother you, but I’ve got a few, lore-based questions I’d like answered before I put my ideas into my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction. One idea I’ve got is that Mephala takes great interest in Orlais’ “Grand Game” and ‘invites herself’ as a ‘new player/puppet grandmaster’, eventually sparking the War of the Lions. When Max somehow gets Gaspard, Briala, and Celine where he wants them (as part of both the Lost Scrolls plot and the mission Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but I won’t tell how to prevent spoilers) Mephala reveals herself, applauds Max for his “mastery of the game”, and then reveals her hand in the Game.

Is this something Mephala would do?

Edit: I almost forgot. Here’s a link to a lore page that talks about Orlais’ “Grand/Great Game”: https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Grand_Game

[robust lintel]

It could be more like a different plane. Endless trees being quite literal?

[sleek grove]

Could be, many planes we have never seen, some heard of but not seen too

In Skyrim we saw Mora's Realm for the first time

[robust lintel]

Yea, it's so open they can basically write anything in

[sleek grove]

We Partially saw Sanguine's Realm

[robust lintel]

Whatever sounds the best

[sleek grove]

The reason my mod's city is in Aetherius is because I think it's underutilised

Also I love the Skybox

[robust lintel]

Its funny how big the TES universe is in lore, and we're still trying to finish Tamriel lol

[sleek grove]

The exact age of Mundus isn't known afaik

If it's like our Universe it'd of been a very long time since the creation

[robust lintel]

An Aetherian city? How cool

[sleek grove]

I also think if I put a New Dwemer City in Oblivion some princes might want to take over lol

[robust lintel]

Hypothetically another race even deeper underground than that of the Dwemer

[sleek grove]

Could be, the inner working of Nirn afaik we don't know. Does it have Tectonic plates? Does it have gravitational fields?

It has continents which is something

The Ruins of Kagrenzel has the longest free fall in Skyrim, that's how deep the Dwemer went roughly. If a guess was to be made

[robust lintel]

What if there was an invisible race. Like they are there on Tamriel among us, but we cannot see them. Sort of a chameleon interfering with reality to where we can only see them in just the right angle and light?

[sleek grove]

Some ghosts can disappear and reappear at will seemingly in TES

More or less invisibility

[robust lintel]

Yea, but not ghosts lol

A living race

[sleek grove]

Maybe a tribe of magic users who use alot of Invisibility magic

[robust lintel]

No not magic, lol nvm

[sleek grove]

I know lol, afaik there isn't but wouldn't be a first if BGS added something like that

[robust lintel]

But in that it be kinda cool to interact maybe some small group NPCs for a questline with the day/night cycle or weather systems.

Like as an example, you can only see them when the moon is out. Or the whole location/dungeon only shows during that time and it vanishes in the day

[fallen panther]

Excellent pun whether intended or not

[robust lintel]

I like to keep it like the Dwemer.

[native olive]

WHERE have the loreboyes been

[uncut hatch]

Uhh… I’ve been writing

I became a monk for the past week

Also what lore is there to talk about?

[sleek grove]

Editing a poscast

[uncut hatch]

Oh that’s cool

[sleek grove]

Eventually hoping to get to the point where editing is not completely necessary

[stark pewter]

Editing is always necessary ;)

[sleek grove]

Sometimes my words don't come out 😅 and long pauses mostly

[uncut hatch]

editing is fun in writing

[fallen panther]

I've been in Hawaii.

[sleek grove]

So that cool looking Aetherius skybox in Skyrim, it sorta reminds me of the Battlespire skybox in well, An Elder Scrolls Legend: Battlespire

Although it's debated where the Battlespire really is

[golden sierra]

it's debated where the Battlespire really is?

i guess i've never looked into it extensively

[sleek grove]

ESO apparently added more

It's between planes of Oblivion or something to some sources

[golden sierra]

a Slipstream Realm, ye

[sleek grove]

I just like the overall skybox

Blue-ish sky, Stars, clouds

[golden sierra]

[sleek grove]

In Skyrim also the big hole in the sky, and the celestials?

I'm not sure what they are called

[uncut hatch]

the sky in sovngarde in skyrim is really pretty

[golden sierra]

the big hole in the sky is the sun

[uncut hatch]

oh are we talking about the sun?

[golden sierra]

and, celestials? i'm not sure what you're talking about

[uncut hatch]

i thought we were talking about the sky in sovngarde ahaha

[golden sierra]

we're talking about sovngarde's sky, it just so happens that one of the things that Yzralden mentioned is the sun 😛

[sleek grove]

The Warrior in the sky, the Thief etc. Guardians?

[golden sierra]

ohhh, the constellations

[uncut hatch]

ah ok. sorry got confused cause i realised the sun is a hole in the sky

[sleek grove]

Idk why I just call it hole. My bad 😅

[golden sierra]

no biggie, it's an accurate description

[uncut hatch]

yea

[sleek grove]

I hope they use an updated Sovngarde Skybox when/we see the plane again

It's cool to just look at, I use it for my Dwemer city because of how awesome it looks

[golden sierra]

spoiler: eso ||we also see Sovngarde in ESO||

[sleek grove]

Also ||Far Shores||

[golden sierra]

i wonder if we'll go to Far Shores in TESVI

[sleek grove]

I hope so would fit in really well given evidence for Hammerfell

[golden sierra]

i doubt it (it being Far Shores), for some reason (like legitimately i don't know why i doubt it), but we'll see

[uncut hatch]

might be a bit too predictable or something

or the fact we already went to a afterlife in skyrim

[sleek grove]

We see the Imperial afterlife instead

[uncut hatch]

where do imperials go again?

[golden sierra]

go from no practical information on it and then suddenly just be there in a game that's not even about the Imperials

[golden sierra]

"Heaven" which we know absolutely nothing about besides the name

[sleek grove]

Do we know where the Psijic Order take Arteum every so often?

[golden sierra]

probably some kind of pocket plane

What do you mean Artaeum doesn't currently reside on Nirn?
"The island vanished three-hundred-and-fifty years ago. The Ritemaster hid it in some pocket plane for who knows what purpose. I studied at the Ceporah Tower during my time with the Order, but Psijic magic was too flashy for my taste."

• Vanus Galerion

[uncut hatch]

thank you btw. thought they weren't to aetherius but heaven works too i guess

[golden sierra]

Heaven would be in Aetherius. Sovngarde is also in Aetherius, as are the Far Shores, as are the Sands Behind the Stars

Aedric afterlives have a tendency to be in Aetherius

[uncut hatch]

🤔

[golden sierra]

however, whether Heaven is even a specific plane of Aetherius or just is Aetherius itself is something of an inconsistency in TES. i opt for both being true, personally

there's also the theory that Imperials just get Sleeved when they die, which i don't personally support, but it's kind of hard to support anything with any level of certainty when it's this vague

[sleek grove]

I wonder if Chimer have the same afterlife as Dunmer

I feel like that is a question not meant to be asked

[golden sierra]

most likely, i imagine

[ocean brook]

Dunmer have an afterlife? I thought they got bound to their tombs to be ancestral guardians and continue their eternal dourness

[golden sierra]

that would be their afterlife 😛

[uncut hatch]

nah, they just get taken out of their afterlife for a short while to help their great great great grandson with relationship issues

[golden sierra]

These dudes are a lot more interesting than the above. Like the Altmer, they are crazy about ancestral worship, it is integral to their spirit and religion, in all three phases of said religion. It is said that when they die, they are burned in flame so that "he might return to the ash from whence he came". The Dunmer then, after the burning and being added to the ancestral tomb, ascend to the otherworld of their ancestors and be with them. The realm of the ancestors is within the waters of Oblivion, probably a demiplane of Boethiah's, considering the mentions of the "Altar of Boet-Hi-Ah". Dunmer are very familial. Dunmer do not believe death to be the end, but a beginning. These ancestral and tomb-bound spirits will always recognize another Dunmer, regardless of the amount of time passed. Often, these ghosts may roam the halls of the tombs and protect their families from invaders. The spirits tend to prefer staying out of Mundus, but will return to do so when needed; they are dutiful. This is why almost every TES game has Dunmer's racial power be ancestral- take Skyrim for example. You erupt into flames because your ancestor is guarding you!

• Rosemary Sherry in r/Skyrim on the Dunmeri afterlife
  (sorry for the wall of text)

[uncut hatch]

The realm of the ancestors is within the waters of Oblivion
uh oh. thats depressing

[sleek grove]

Dwemer just became Spectors

[golden sierra]

i mean, they worship Daedra, what'd you expect?

[sleek grove]

Well the ones that died prior to Kagrenac doing his business

[uncut hatch]

oh wait

wrong race

how close are dwemer and dunmer...?

[sleek grove]

So Chimer have different names to Dunmer, Or am I wrong on that?

Well I about screwed up there lol

[uncut hatch]

i did too whoop whoop

[sleek grove]

I put Dunmer twice 😅

[sleek grove]

Only full connection was the First Council and they were once classed as a House of the Chimer

[golden sierra]

close in what way?

also, Dunmer, Chimer, or both?

[sleek grove]

People still debate Dwemer skin tone

I go off the only example that holds up, the Spectors

[uncut hatch]

it was more a joke on how i misread yzradlen's comment on dwemer being spectors. i though he said dunmer eheheh... so this is why deleting old comments is bad and i shouldn't do it

[golden sierra]

ohhh

[uncut hatch]

so are they grey?

[golden sierra]

like a pale yellow

[sleek grove]

Pale grey on the Spectors, once switched from transparent to normal

Yagrum Bagarn would be a solid case if he wasn't suffering from Corprus that bloats and deforms your skin

[uncut hatch]

i kinda forgot about yagrum

[golden sierra]

they're not purple as seems to be popular belief, but pale grey, pale yellow, or something along those lines is 👌

pale yellow is more of a logical progression from the naturally yellow-ish skin of most other meri races (Altmer, Aldmer, Chimer, Bosmer...), while pale grey is distinctly from the Dwemer spectres

[sleek grove]

ESO has Dwarven Spectors in one Dungeon on Vvardenfell but they are men with Dwarven gear

Morrowind holds the only evidence to appearance, big ears too it seems

[uncut hatch]

men? in my elf?

[sleek grove]

On my ESO toon Dwarf I'm building my mods around I based off the spector ghosts

Couldn't get the ears big enough tho lol

[uncut hatch]

big flappers
https://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/beast_morrowind_ghostdwarf.png

[sleek grove]

I want the hat

Gimme the beanie like hat

[uncut hatch]

whoa they really do have long ears...

they go right over the head

[sleek grove]

non-transparent

The Spectors in Morrowind tho are the exact same in appearance, but one will speak with you in length

Defiantly more hostile than Yagrum is in Morrowind, but he's a softy. (In a cool kinda way)

[uncut hatch]

is that the rude smith dude?

[sleek grove]

Radac yee

He's what I take as a guess to personality some might of had, Yagrum gives me an idea of how much it takes to break a Dwarf

[golden sierra]

i plopped the hex code of a few places from the face, one turned out as"Greyish orange", another as "Mostly desaturated dark yellow" and the third just repeated the last one, with the fourth just repeating the first one. they all look rather brownish on their own, tbh, it's weird

[sleek grove]

It's odd, I went with pale grey to be safe

[golden sierra]

mhm

fifth was "Dark greyish yellow"

[uncut hatch]

its the colour of bones

[sleek grove]

I still want that hat

[golden sierra]

it kinda is the color associated with dried out bones, isn't it? weird

[sleek grove]

I may have a Dwemer problem 😅

I use a Dwemer mod for my mod project and their Dwemer have purple skin. I can't get it grey either so I'm at an impasse where I have to make them pale blue to get a grey skin tone.

[uncut hatch]

and i have a daedra problem. it's slowly fading the more i write down my thoughts though finally

ive never heard of dwemer having purple skin

i thought it was just grey and yellow

[sleek grove]

I'd love to work on actual Dwemer lore one day, a bunch of friends know how much I like them

[sleek grove]

There's a bunch of fan art and they have them as Blue

[uncut hatch]

and people get upset with blue dunmer

gotta find these things

[sleek grove]

I stick to grey-ish Dwemer, or close to the Spector tint, until Bethesda add more Spectors, which is unlikely, and we can have more evidence

[golden sierra]

well, Dwemer ruins are a big thing in Hammerfell

[plain ibex]

I want the beard.

[sleek grove]

That's how I want to do a mod sequel

They have the assets on the game that I'll use

[sleek grove]

On ESO they have 2 good long braided beards in the Crown Store, but they are Nord Beards but they work really well

[uncut hatch]

how do dwemer get beards that big anyways?

dwemer are neckbeards

[sleek grove]

Good care and time, just let it grow

[golden sierra]

rude

dwemer and beards go together like peanut butter and jelly

[plain ibex]

Crown Store🤮 Paying real money for facial hair hurts my soul.

[uncut hatch]

oh i forgot to add more context cause i was thinking about altmer... well now i forgot what i was trying to say

[sleek grove]

If I could I'd grow a Dwemer beard

I can't become one until I can so life is pain

[plain ibex]

Same ;_;

[sleek grove]

My genetics are not right for it

I can't remember but my Username is a Female Dwarven name

[fallen panther]

They are probably closer to the skin tone of all the other Mer races, save the Dunmer since they have a very specific reason for theirs, but if we take humans as an example then living underground with no sun exposure for however many thousands of years would probably lead to a distinctly lighter hue.

[uncut hatch]

do you think dwemer are allergic to the sun?

[sleek grove]

Some had to wear special goggles to see the sun

[fallen panther]

😂 not exactly but I would assume sunburns are still a thing in Nirn

[sleek grove]

The times Dwemer were above ground was to fight or to explore

Most of the time just in their cities

[uncut hatch]

im pretty sure theres a... uhh...? miscellaneous item? in eso thats basically sunscreen

[fallen panther]

I've always been curious why there isn't some huge underground network of tunnels between their cities.

[uncut hatch]

i don't think its usable

[sleek grove]

King Dumac was a very public Dwarf in his reign, went to one notable event with his best bud Nerevar

Which defeats what the isolationist Dwemer were thought to be

Kagrenac was playing with fire under Dumac's freindship

[uncut hatch]

man i need to find the thing now... I'll be back in a week

[fallen panther]

Direct exposure to Atherius is known to the State of California to cause skin cancer

[sleek grove]

iirc the Dwemer with their Orrey could see through into Aetherius directly. or at least so it's said

[uncut hatch]

ahh i found it. a jar of sun cream

A jar of thick white paste. According to alchemists, daily application can lessen the effects of Aetherial exposure.

completely worth it

[sleek grove]

Must be useful

[uncut hatch]

uhh... uesp is kinda weird about the place i clicked this on... but like... i guess this'll do for a link on the (nah I don't trust that link even though it was safe...)

[sleek grove]

Closest thing to that was Blackreach, but the whole idea was to build a bunch of Cities on the corners to figure out Aetherium

[uncut hatch]

i feel like this link is illegal @-@

[sleek grove]

That ended badly, they all started fighting each other, then the Nords came in during the fighting and it resulted in the closing of the Aetherium Forge

For a race of smart elves they certainly let Ego and stuff get to them enough

I think it was the Nords anyway lol

[robust lintel]

This made my day

[fallen panther]

Intelligent but emotional to a fault.

[sleek grove]

The knowledge to unravel the Universe on a lever pull or button press and they fight each other over a magic rock, smh

[fallen panther]

Lmao

Magic rocks are serious business, apparently

[sleek grove]

Kagrenac surely used a Magic Rock

For the Smartest Dwarf he sure did ignore common sense and just went straight to activate a god with no prep

I'm seeing a trend

[fallen panther]

Given their predisposition to warring with each other over the slightest hint of disrespect, it seems likely they destroyed themselves somehow rather than warping to another plane.

[sleek grove]

Used his magic telephone too

Well supposedly

[uncut hatch]

like the ancient greek story of prometheus and epimetheus. one lacked foresight while the other lacked hindsight

oh wait theres not another dwarf here... fill in the gap

[sleek grove]

Dumac fell and I guess Kagrenac was like, "Oh shoot I better make a choice right now and not take the L." Makes the entire race on Nirn vanish

[uncut hatch]

ive mentally died a bit sorry

[sleek grove]

Kagrenac given what Yagrum says about the Egg of Time chose to ignore the bad possibilities with the Numidium

He had critics in Dwemer society but his Ego was too strong

[fallen panther]

The Dwemer clearly needed Jeff Goldbum

[golden sierra]

i think the link you found is the one used to edit the qualities of the item, kinda like an "edit article" page

[sleek grove]

Summary of Kagrenac's critics

[uncut hatch]

yeah i dunno im not good at these things

[golden sierra]

fair nuff, links can be scary

[fallen panther]

Discord tells me so every time I follow one

[gaunt bear]

Something I have planned for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction involves a Dwemer Tonal Architect who was permanently exiled to Thedas precisely because he “wondered if they should” with the Heart of Lorkhan, thereby escaping his race’s fate. He’ll eventually become part of the Inquisition, partly because he’ll never get an I-Told-You-So from your race.

[brave shoal]

got a small question (though probably obvious) but i guess hammerfell is way too dry for argonian to be comfortable? was lurking around house in eso and liked one in the desert but not sure thematically my argonian would enjoy living there^^'

[robust lintel]

I mean I thought the same with Skyrim. Thought their me be a variant snow Argonian or Khajiit, but nope. Snow elves of course tho..

[sleek grove]

Was nice to see the Falmer for the first time in Skyrim. People had some wild theories up till Skyrim, which blew the waters. And Dawnguard just added more with the addition of Pure Snow Elves that aren't twisted.

I believe there was a NPC in Morrowind that was fascinated by the Falmer mystery. I think they suggested they could of just died out from cross breeding or something iirc. A fan theory was the Falmer became the Rieklings, or that they were the Rieklings

Ofc they didn't know the truth of what became of the Falmer, we didn't till 9 years later

[robust lintel]

They got elves everything.. water elves, wood elves, snow elves, high elves, dark elves, wild elves, underground elves, lefthanded elves. I'm sure I'm forgetting some

[sleek grove]

Dwemer can be either Deep Folk or Deep Elves. Another say Smart Elves

[uncut hatch]

Elf elves

[robust lintel]

Lefthanded elves I only just learned about. Currently extinct in the lore.

Interesting with their influence in Yokuda

[sleek grove]

Left-handed Elves, also known as Sinistral Elves

Always in a war with the Yokudan's till it sank

I can't remember where I heard it or how true it is but there is a possibility the Sinistral Elves are tied with the Maormer, aka Sea Elves, or Tropical Elves. Dev talks or something iirc.

[robust lintel]

Yup I've heard thrown out there too

Something else about them and Thras as well

Do they have fish-like beastfolk yet? They got lizards and cats already, so just wondered if they had something like the Zora from Zelda

[uncut hatch]

There’s dreugh… I like dreugh

[left current]

Likewise

[sleek grove]

There are a breed of Argonians that look like Fish

idk anything else tho

[robust lintel]

Fish lizards? 😶

[uncut hatch]

Axolotl Argonians

[brave shoal]

so i guess its fine for my argonian in the desert question? maybe just stay under shade during the hours when sun blast hardest?

[robust lintel]

Idk, maybe the Hist keeps you hydrated no matter where you are?

[brave shoal]

i should check if we can build pools as furniture, could solve my problem right there

[robust lintel]

Fun thing to know: There is such a thing as "Werecrocodiles" among the Argonian.

[golden sierra]

argonians are weird

[uncut hatch]

Eh… hammerfell is far away from black marsh

[sleek grove]

Many Were Creatures exist but not all are seen, some are myths

WereSharks are probably myths, no evidence nor are there sharks

[uncut hatch]

Hist are scary and I don’t like them

[golden sierra]

In studying the various races of Tamriel, I have found a few strange aberrations. Among the human-shaped, the Argonians may be the most fascinating. They are cold-blooded, in both the physiological and psychological sense, and yet they somehow manage to operate in all climes with the same resilience as mammals. Their preference for sub-tropical and tropical climates notwithstanding, to see an Argonian moving through sub-arctic or arctic regions with the same facility as their mammalian rivals is simply astounding.

• On Argonians

[brave shoal]

i remember listening to argonian complaining about the cold in skyrim but seemed just fine if grumpy. maybe its the same for desert? though them always saying ''stay moist'' and calling other dryskin seem to imply they like humidity to some point

[golden sierra]

they're perfectly able to live in just about any climate, they just might not be the most comfortable. it's not the the point that they're struggling, tho

[uncut hatch]

OH

[sleek grove]

The only Source afaik is M'aiq and he's a lier and not to be trusted from his Meta-Commentaries on TES

[golden sierra]

that is NOT the only source about weresharks, iirc

[sleek grove]

There's another?

[golden sierra]

there's also aaaa captain of some sort, if memory serves. a pirate

[brave shoal]

M'aiq is the bringer of truth you heretic /s

[uncut hatch]

I would say it’s the same for deserts. They won’t like it but they won’t get more murdered by the climate than a nord or bosmer would

[golden sierra]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Saga_of_Captain_Wereshark

[sleek grove]

I know Werebats exist, nothing to do with vampires. It gets confusing

[brave shoal]

i want weredragon now

[sleek grove]

Like anyrace can be any Were type

[golden sierra]

oh, i missed another one

In Black Marsh and southern Morrowind, werecrocodiles stalk the swamps. Black Marsh also shares with the Imperial Province and the wetter parts of Elsweyr the vile presence of werelions. Valenwood's werevultures are not found in any other province. The wereboar has found both the climates of High Rock and Hammerfell amenable. As I mentioned before, the werebear is the most common lycanthrope in Skyrim, and is also found in the northern parts of High Rock, the Imperial Province, and Morrowind. The werewolf can be found in every province. The seventh lycanthrope, which I have never seen but my trusted peers have assured me exists, is a wereshark that roams the oceans around Tamriel.

• On Lycanthropy

[sleek grove]

The leader of the Ka'Po'Tun was said to have transformed himself into a Dragon with powerful magic

[sleek grove]

Huh, I know Sea-monsters exist but if Weresharks exist then Sharks must too to be a variant of

[uncut hatch]

What are werelions doing in black marsh?

[golden sierra]

what are wereboars doing in Hammerfell?

[uncut hatch]

Daggerfall logic

Like, lions aren’t known for living in swamps

[sleek grove]

Just let me be a Werebear in TES VI

If we do get two provinces for VI Imagine Weresharks for that to swim across the bay faster without a ship

[uncut hatch]

Oh wait there’s werebears in northern high rock?!

For god sake another dangerous thing going in the list to add in my fan fic

[sleek grove]

For baddies I use Thalmor because I'm unoriginal

[uncut hatch]

Thalmor are kinda plebby in my fan fic

But like, I’m also writing them beating up my main characters right now so who’s the true pleb?

[brave shoal]

the inquisition want to know your location

[sleek grove]

I thought a sub-faction of the Thalmor would be a perfect parallel to show that, "This is the worse that could happen if a Working Tonal Resonator gets in the wrong hands"

[uncut hatch]

Northern high rock is fun cause I get to use floaters as a wildlife creature

[brave shoal]

floaters? only thing called that i know is from fallout

[uncut hatch]

Floaters from shadowkey ☺️

[sleek grove]

Depending how big Volenfell is in VI, providing it really is Hammerfell, then I'll make my first mod a complete overhaul of it to be more like a capital

This is years anyway and hopefully we see larger cities and more epic points of interest

[uncut hatch]

Oh! I could post fan art finally actually of floaters

But now I’m not motivated

[brave shoal]

like in every es game, first thing i will do is scout for dwemer ruins because i love exploring these when they show up

[sleek grove]

TES VI will be a lore dump for me to learn new Dwemer things

[brave shoal]

plot twist: its black marsh and we get nothing 😔

(/s)

[sleek grove]

I'd die a little

[brave shoal]

or we learn there a secret dwemer laboratory in center of black marsk and its why that area is so poisonous

[uncut hatch]

No, I’ll be able to know if lilmoth is ok after getting murdered by Umbriel in 4E 40

That’ll be enough

[brave shoal]

read somewhere there a high king now in black marsh, curious how the argonian society work with such a change if it bigger than just a small group pretending to be important

[golden sierra]

i love these guys, i wish they'd return

[plush orchid]

Looks like they drifted into obscurity

[robust lintel]

I third this. They look like floating stingrays or something

[sleek grove]

I want those freaky things from Dawnstar to return

And what is an IceTribe man?

Dawnstar asking too many questions then Skyrim answers nothing like it never happened

[uncut hatch]

Wormmouths came back in eso

They look dumb though but they always did

How they looked in shadowkey

[sand flume]

cute

[native olive]

mmmmmmmm spiky alit

[uncut hatch]

If tes6 gets the western reach in it I’ll be very happy

[robust lintel]

Hmm, I think it's the height proportions that make it look more goofy than intimidating. Needs balance-work. The one from Shadowed actually looks better than the ESO one tho. The ESO one, it looks like has a P where his head is, lol. I just can't take that particular art design serious.

[uncut hatch]

i think its the lack of arms

shadowkey wormmouths are at least uncanny. especially with the big chick like mouth

i was more just saying there that floaters probably could come back if wormmouths are in eso

dunno about the snow rays though

[robust lintel]

Looking at it.. if they gave it arms it'd be worse lol

Its the legs, too high. Needs longer body with that form

Its kinda like a serpent with legs

[uncut hatch]

if floaters get reintroduced, would it be possible to domesticate it? 🤔

[robust lintel]

If they were to give it arms, I'd say multiple arms. Otherwise its gonna look like a midget trex.

[uncut hatch]

give them the baby bird mouth again then

[robust lintel]

Hold on, I got a GIF for that Q

[robust lintel]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/217/015/88f.gif

[uncut hatch]

It's perfect!

i love how the R on James' shirt disappears for a frame

[robust lintel]

Good eye

[abstract ledge]

https://images.uesp.net/0/0c/SK-concept-Wormmouth.jpg

[robust lintel]

Looks like a tortoise with legs

Teenage mutant ninja turtle reject

[uncut hatch]

I didn’t want to say it again, but…

Wormmouths look like these

[brave shoal]

💯

[sleek grove]

"Re-Introducing the Staple remover Wormmouths in TES VI"

[native glade]

I'd like to see afew bosmer runnin around in TES VI with antlers

[robust lintel]

Oarfish

[uncut hatch]

Oarfish are great. I love those guys

[robust lintel]

They are outlandish-looking aren't they, in a way where there is as much mystery down in the depths of the seas as there is up in space

[plain ibex]

What is the significance of these floor nipples?

[dusky scaffold]

looking nice

[uncut hatch]

buttons

but most are fake

good at tricking nedic soldiers

(im joking btw)

[plain ibex]

tries pressing it but it just impales my hand ;_;

[uncut hatch]

oarfish are friendly. can't eat you but a fully grown one looks like a sea monster. they also warn people of earthquakes

[uncut hatch]

oh noooo 😰

[plain ibex]

I'll just eat some Namira's Rot or Imp Stools to fix it, I'll be fine.

[quartz shuttle]

Flashback to the microscope scene in The Phantom

[plain ibex]

Or that part in Subnautica

[native olive]

A whole spike goes through his hand but it’s fine and his wetsuit is fine

[plain ibex]

The gloves can come off so it's fine.

[uncut hatch]

Or that part in Skyrim Dawnguard dlc

[sleek grove]

We don't question game logic

[uncut hatch]

Hands are fine to stab through. Totally won’t cause tendon issues where you can’t bend your fingers

[sleek grove]

We also don't question why Cheese bleeds in Skyrim

Or so I've heard

You can test by hitting a wheel with a sword

[uncut hatch]

Burn the Mysterium Xarxes and it becomes a bucket

[sleek grove]

The Vigilants of Stendarr claim they hunt Daedra and beasts but will not notice you're Dremora summons

[uncut hatch]

Mankar camoran: the inner workings of my mind are an enigma

• shows video of his paradise book transforming into a bucket *

[uncut hatch]

They’re bros that’s why

[sleek grove]

In Oblivion when I played with a teen mind I did not understand what he was on about lol

Something, something Lyg. Something, something Dagon

[uncut hatch]

He ate his daughter without bread

[sleek grove]

Mankar, or Dagon

[uncut hatch]

Mankar

[sleek grove]

He's a weird little Altmer

Why can't I wear the Amulet in Oblivion but he can

[uncut hatch]

My first daughter ran from the Dagonite road. Her name was Ruma and I ate her with no bread, and made another, which learned, and I loved that one and blackbirds formed her twin behind all time.

Mankar is funny

[sleek grove]

tbf when I played Oblivion to completion I knew not a lot on Dwemer

I honestly do not remember Knights of the Nine

[uncut hatch]

Knights of the nine was great

But I didn’t know it was a dlc when I did it. I thought it was just a really good side quest

[sleek grove]

Moving to #elder-scrolls-general-chat but I don't know why I don't remember it at all. I must of beaten it as I have 100% Achieves on 360 and have the DLC in my library

[native glade]

Random thought in eso powerfull necromancers can reanimate dragon bones but in skyrim no matter how powerfull the dragonborn is he cant wonder y that is lore wise

[quartz crane]

Because the LDB isn't meant to be a necromancer. The limits of the game engine are about all we can infer about the character, I suppose.

[uneven epoch]

I’m still sad we didn’t get the dragon ultimate from the concept artwork for ESO Necromancer and got the Colossus instead

[dusky scaffold]

Orryn the black kinda cheated, and didn't really actually reanimate the dragon itself
I'm not sure about the Elsweyr guy, but i think it was because he was backed by a dragon and/or aeonstone

[pastel sorrel]

They can animate the corpse as a zombie, not revive it fully. Same with the dragon skeleton in Labyrinthian in TES5

[dusky scaffold]

We don't know what reanimated that one

[pastel sorrel]

It's soulless and considered undead ingame, so it's safe to say it's a reanimated skeleton

[dusky scaffold]

It's not the regular reanimation technique of infusing a skeleton with a daedric Animus, as you would be able to trap that

[proven moss]

I'd write it off as "gameplay mechanics" rather than lore, since no dragons in game have a soul of the nature that you can trap, and the dragon skeleton is just a reskin using existing assets.

But I suppose maybe it's an automaton of some sort

[coral mantle]

That is, until I found the Book of the Frozen Legion. Within its pages was a brilliant solution: a layer of conjured frost encased around a human corpse. With a loyal spirit bound to this ice, commanding the spirit in turn commands the body through the ice
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Experiment_Journal
coulda been something like this with that boney dragon

[dusky scaffold]

That's what Orryn did to Thorbacon, i think

[coral mantle]

also, how aboooout.. dragon lich \o/ choom was immortal as is, but even his divine body had limited magickal. so he figured, like mortals do, hey what if i remove my fleshly limits...

[dusky scaffold]

Dragons don't need Magicka
And I'm not sure lichdom is even possible for a dragon
Durneviir is likely the closest we can get

[coral mantle]

hmm, true, Shouts dont consume magicka gameplay wise.. gotta wonder though if it's the same in universe. like, caster-shouter whatever changes reality with their will. thu'um isnt just properly read words, its magic, too

and lichdom is binding ones soul with their own body post-mortem (ive waited for the chance to use this expression), pretty sure dragons can go through that

[ocean brook]

I would assume that Shouts do use magicka - just not your magicka. you're breathing in the breath of the world and expelling it

the cooldown represents how long it takes you to be able to take another such breath and Shout with it; presumably, master Tongues would be faster at this than novices?

[quartz shuttle]

Shouts are a different sort of magic, and based on what we know, don't use Magicka

Normal Magic uses Magicka to fuel an action. It's sort of like a Star Trek Replicator, taking Energy to create an effect.

Shouts and Dwemer Tonal Engineering are different, and are more about manipulating the 'music' of the Aubris. More like Quantum Engineering

[coral mantle]

from what i know 'all' magic is stuff from aetherius, stuff of creation itself. ill bring some evidence some later, bloody customers at work wont let chat about important things

[plain ibex]

Ah, so every Skyrim spellcaster NPC, got it.

[split iris]

Most "magic" stuff yes, like enchantments and spells. But there are a few special things, such as Tonal Engineering, Thu'um, Shehai, Shadow Magic, etc. that are not of aetherial magic/magicka.

[native olive]

good morning or else

[plain ibex]

Else

[coral mantle]

links pleeease

[coral mantle]

okay, quick browsing 'uesp magic' put me on uesp page where thuum and tonal thing and shehai all listed under 'magic', magicka in ayleidoon. manipulation of raw aetherial energy, blah blah. thats not what i meant by links but im on the right track

[coral mantle]

*As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. *
in Five songs of king Wolfharth, whoever wrote it, they call thuum another form of magic..

[dusky scaffold]

We know that dragon souls work fundamentally different from mortal souls, so lichdom working for the latter is no indication for it working for the former

[quartz shuttle]

The Nords have also called both Daedra, and Dunmer, demons though.

Just because the same word has been used, doesn't mean they're the same thing

Tonal Magic is older than conventional Magic, going back to the very origins of creation

Just like Arda was created through the music of the Ainur, the Aubris was created by the musical interplay of Anu and Padomay.

Magicka, the stuff of Aetherius, was born out of that reaction. But Tonal Magic is about manipulating that music directly

[ocean brook]

which, as a distinction, seems a bit academic?

[plain ibex]

Bard/Necron magic right there. I want to make like a guitar warrior from Total Distortion and annihilate someone with a sonic lute.

[coral mantle]

just semantics, clearly. dwarves didnt believe in magic and to prove themselves right just made up different word for it, ha ha
i dont recall any other culture claiming some 'anthem of creation' was the source of it all

not like any of us can back it with actual lore though. we only have interpretations of folks who lived 5k years after dwarves made the disappearing act and who cant figure out what the heck happened

[coral mantle]

my little rule is that anything's possible with magic, just need to pay the price (and wait for ESO expansion where devs would play with that idea because they couldnt make up something better x)

[sleek grove]

I'd imagine Dwemer did use normal magic but not as much as Tonal Magic. They can enchant well enough given Radac enchanting Trueflame for the Nerevarine

He wasn't all that known on Trueflame

[golden sierra]

the cooldown also represents the strain Shouting puts on your throat. if i remember correctly, this is stated directly innn the German localization? i think?

[ocean brook]

nonsense! Nordic throats are innured to strain from years of heavy carousing 😛

[robust lintel]

Yea I brought this up before too. Would like to see a legit and more respectable combat bard class in the series besides the local bards just trying to fetch septims and maidens at taverns..

[gaunt bear]

I say, a little bit of Column A, A little bit of Column B.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, the birth of the Aubris through the interplay of Anu and Padomay is an Aldmeri explanation, not a Dwemer one.

And Tonal 'Magic' as an art has been used by the Bosmer, Dwemer, Nords, Yokudans and Tsaesci.

But yes, in practice it's an academic difference. Since no one has yet shown the ability to Shout out Magic from an area.

[golden sierra]

this is going to a slightly deeper level and is using some stuff that i would struggle to substantiate myself at a moment's notice because it relies heavily on lectures i've gotten from others, but by my understanding, magic is more or less any means of manipulating reality with your willpower. traditional casting is manipulating reality by applying your willpower to the magicka reserves within your body. the Thu'um is applying your willpower to a language that's about as old as Nirn and linear Time. sword-singing and, by extension, Shehai, is applying your willpower to your soul in such a way as to accentuate your swordsmanship to unreal levels (this is one of the ones i'm less confident and knowledgeable about, idk much about sword-singing outside of the ultimate form of it, Shehai), and, potentially, even create a Shehai - a blade made of your very soul. tonal architecture and Dwemer tonal magic is altering and manipulating the very World-Song of reality, impressing your will upon it

i could probably back up most of this if given enough time, but it'd take days, as i'm currently working on something else and i'd need to find, quote, and connect a good few sources, and then probably would want to refine my wording so i get my point across properly

[golden sierra]

oh, sword singing and Thu'um are also both obviously sound magic (i don't like the term tonal magic when referring to anything non-Dwemeri), which is important because of the aforementioned world-song

afaik, we're also given no reason to believe that the Thu'um uses magicka, although i don't thiiiink we know enough about sword singing to know one way or the other there

[coral mantle]

Magnus (Magus): The god of sorcery, Magnus withdrew from the creation of the world at the last second, though it cost him dearly. What is left of him on the world is felt and controlled by mortals as magic that's from Before Ages of Man. like, the main idea what magic is, as old as morrowind game

[golden sierra]

that's referring to the standard usage of "magic" which is casting

when using the term "magic" there's usually two applications: spellcasting, and what i just outlined above

they overlap frequently but are not the same concepts in their entirety

unfortunately, this happens with a lot of terms in TES. "god," "daedra lord," "anu," "sithis"...

[coral mantle]

religions claim Magnus did not become earth bones, magic is not law of nature and stuff. oh, and plus pure energy from aetherius pours into mundus through those holes. this is probably how tamriel moms explain their toddlers how it works, anyway

[sleek grove]

Tonal magic being Sound is semi like how sound can work irl. the right tone or frequency can send people a little crazy. Not the reality altering Tones the Dwemer used ofc at all.

[golden sierra]

it's a similar concept, yes

[coral mantle]

summoning shehai, shouting fus ro dah, it does take energy from somewhere, right? why not call this energy.. ta-daaa.. magicka! that blue thing on the UI

[sleek grove]

Yea, idk how else to put it so I just gave my way of seeing it. Sound is powerful

Just TES gets alot more magical with it

[golden sierra]

why not call this energy.. ta-daaa.. magicka!
because this is a jump in logic with no substantiation. it doesn't use magicka in-game, nor are we ever told it does.
summoning shehai, shouting fus ro dah, it does take energy from somewhere, right?
exerting your willpower upon reality does tend to be exhausting, i imagine 😛 but once again, i don't believe we really have anything pointing at it being powered explicitly by magicka. sound in TES is powerful on a metaphysical level. the right sounds can alter reality

[sleek grove]

We have a good range of Tonal magic, time distortion/time-travel kinda, mind control, insanity, barriers, soul gems frequencies?, Power for Animunculi

[golden sierra]

to use Yzralden's comparison, get the right frequency or tone irl and you can break a glass. get the right frequency or tone in TES and you can create fire

[sleek grove]

The Clockwork God even uses it i think

[golden sierra]

most Dwemer inventions do

[coral mantle]

automatons in Morrowind are powered by heart of lorkhan though, not some song or something

[golden sierra]

actually, to mention another tonal thing, i've heard that Nirnroot's constant tone has something to do with it being connected to the world-song in some way?

[sleek grove]

The Soul gem stuff is outside Dwemereth/Morrowind for powering Animunculi ofc

[coral mantle]

and same machiens in Skyrim take energy from soul gem, necromancy right there

[golden sierra]

why do you assume those two things are mutually exclusive? Lorkhan is known as the Doom Drum, for his Heart is the Beat of the World

[coral mantle]

i don't see the point inventing the wheel is all

tonal thing is magic \o/

[golden sierra]

it is magic, it is not spellcasting

i imagine some tonal magic was powered by magicka

most things powered by souls are, to my knowledge, considered to be powered my magicka. but i don't believe that all tonal architecture is powered by souls

i struggle to believe that a soul powers Dwemer Suns, for example

[sleek grove]

How the Soul Gem art works idk if we really know if it's the actual soul. The Morrowind's Animunculi is put like this, as well as the Clockwork City. If you take a Spider for example and move it outside Morrowind, it'll break and no longer work without a rework if you have the skills to do that. However if you then move said Animunculi inside the boarder it'll work

Same rule for the Clockwork City afaik

[golden sierra]

the way i understand it, Dwemer use what is basically radio waves to control their animunculi. perhaps its range was, in this instance, constrained to Morrowind to prevent them from being used elsewhere without special know-how

[sleek grove]

There could be a tonal frequency all over Morrowind and the Clockwork City. That essentially give power to all mobile machines

In some capacity there is something possibly tied with the Tonal art in the area, it seems like a range thing. That said I believe Kagrenac had a defence system in his Tools so when they left Morrowind a group of his Anumunculi would stop it. I think anyway

That was Skyrim that added that tools bit afaik

Outside Morrowind they did seemingly use Soul Gems instead afaik. It's like a clever work around you could mod into normal Morrowind Animunculi if you have the skills and knowledge to covert.

And there are pets in ESO which are Sotha Sil's Fabricants that do indeed work outside the city. Most likely modded to work outside or something. (The Clockwork City's version Animunculi name)

[golden sierra]

it's also possible that it was a retcon, i'm not sure

unless CWC in ESO keeps to TESIII's way of doing things

[sleek grove]

ESO added all the Fabricant stuff afaik

[golden sierra]

oh, okay... i still need to play through that

[sleek grove]

Seht's are more advanced though

I think if the Dwemer hadn't of vanished they'd of reached the Fabricant level in Animunculi imo

The Clockwork City is probably as close ZoS can get to doing full Dwemer content

(By that I mean fully exploring Dwemer, including the mystery)

Oh my bad, Fabricants do appear in Morrowind in Tribunal

ESO must of added the full list of Fabricants and how advanced they get

Legends did a bunch with the Clockwork City too, ||Kagrenac's Tools were recreated by Sotha Sil for his own work|| If you care for some Legends spoilers

||Notably Wraithguard II is a left-handed gauntlet, different from Wraithguard being right-handed.||

[plush orchid]

That’s interesting since the left hand is fairly deep symbol in TES

[fallen panther]

Did the Dwarves just not have any written records at all?

[quartz shuttle]

They did, but few have survived the intervening 3000 years

And even those that have, no one speaks the language

A plot point int eh Disappearance of the Dwarves quest in Morrowind is to collect a few surviving Dwemer documents and find someone to translate them.

[robust lintel]

Bombards Yagrum Bagarn with translating numerous Dwemer texts till he throws me out

[fallen panther]

No, but secondary sources, presumably, would have been more plentiful, especially in the wake of their disappearance. One would think that historians and other academics of the time would have started furiously documenting every known fact (and cultural fiction) that they knew.

[sleek grove]

I worked out the timeframe of the disappearance. Since I learned 700 is a guess. A 32 Year war is a long time. I reworked it for either side, from 1E 668 to 1E 700

It's been a long time, but not as long as I originally though as of Skyrim

The only Dwemer work that survived from Plans was "The Egg of Time," "Kagrenac's Schematics," and Calcelmo's Dwemer Tablet. That latter one is the one that is used to reverse work the Language since we know what it says since the writer of it revealed the full thing.

Many artifacts are around so, Volendrung, Spellbreaker, Dwarven Black Bow of Fate, Keening, Wraithguard, Sunder, Spider Control Rod, Visage of Mzund, and some smaller items around like information stored on Lexicons from the Dwemer's time. I think the most important data would probably be on some Lexicon somewhere on Nirn, or an Outer Realm maybe, idk.

[golden sierra]

are you referring to Divine Metaphysics as "Kagrenac's Schematics"?

[sleek grove]

Probably yea, Yagrum uses it to work with Wraithguard iirc

Or is that Dagoth Ur's plans? I forget

[golden sierra]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kagrenac#cite_note-MWYagrum-1

voila, in any case

[sleek grove]

Okay it was Kagrenac's books he read to do it

[golden sierra]

i somehow managed to link the wrong thing

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divine_Metaphysics

wrong one again, jfc

[sleek grove]

All of the books he learns from are all gibberish in English. I think it could be unsolved code maybe, but no evidence for that. The only thing that does make me think there could be is Calcelmo's Tablet has a translation

[golden sierra]

THERE we go

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got a few questions about some of the lore before I put it into my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

First, what year was the Dragon War?

Second, had the Dwarven Disappearance by this time, or was that later?

——

I’m asking because I have an episode planned where the Inquisitor, Dragonborn, and their Allies find a Gate of the Two Brothers (Akatosh and Lorkhan) that sends them to a Dwemer outpost where a, slightly mad, Dwemer Mage lives. His obsession with unraveling the secrets of life, and applying Alteration to said secrets (resulting in the direct manipulation of life), led him to be banished from his own society, but he gets taken in by the Dragon Cult, who intends to use him to build an army of spirit/mortal hybrids for Alduin.

——

I’m not going to say any more because I don’t want to spoil it for anyone.

[sleek grove]

Dwemer vanished after

The last stronghold of the Dragon Cult was besieged in 1E 140. The Dwemer vanished in 1E 668 at the earliest

The Chimer-Dwemer alliance was 1E 420. ironic number

The Dragon War started in the Merethic Era afaik

[gaunt bear]

Thanks, but what I was looking for was the fall of Bromunjaar, or Labyrinthian. If you don’t know, that’s okay. I’ll settle for the last year of the Merethic Era.

[sleek grove]

I don't think there is a date, it would of been the late Merethic Era tho. It's also an Era that is dated backward afaik. So like how BC is for us.

[gaunt bear]

All right, final question, how long did the Merethic Era last?

[sleek grove]

2500 years at the earliest point according to UESP

That started with the construction of the Direnni Tower

But not many dates are given for that Era, just events

[gaunt bear]

Thank you.

[golden sierra]

if you wanna check dates further, UESP's timeline is generally pretty accurate

[golden sierra]

tbh i forget where the 1e 700 date comes from

[plush orchid]

It’s after 1E 699

[gaunt bear]

Har har.

Just remembered another thing I’d like to share, in case it possibly goes against the lore:

The whole plot of Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls is about what would happen if the magic of the Anchor interacts with an Elder Scroll.

Here’s information about the Anchor, just be warned that it contains plot spoilers for Dragon Age: Inquisition:

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor

One of the results of this is the events of ESO become (retroactively) entangled with the events in Thedas during the Time of Andraste (my unofficial name for it), when the Vestige meets Andraste and Maferath, causing Andraste to decide to aid him in his quest to defeat Molag Bal, complicated by Molag attempting to do a similar Planemeld to a Blight-weakened Thedas.

[sleek grove]

Until it was brought up to me I never thought about the year 700 and it's validity

If I didn't calculate both dates and give a time window then it'd never sit right with me

I'll share the dates you'll probably rather know from the event to two titles, ESO and Skyrim. During ESO it has been 2802-2834 years, and for Skyrim it has been 3750-3782 years.

There is a 32 year time-window of when it might have happened

I'll update it for TES VI ofc

[quartz shuttle]

Dwemer Inquiries vol 1 is the only source i could find which soecifically states 1e700

[golden sierra]

why do you assume there's a 32 year time-window of when it might have happened, and where does the idea of it being a guess come from?

(don't worry about boring me with a bunch of calculations, i'll happily read through any calculations and details)

(i find stuff like that fascinating)

[sleek grove]

Well the 32 year window comes from when the War started to when it ended by 1E 700. If we go by the 700 sources, but I felt I should do both. The Tiber Septim conquest was 42 years so maybe a 32 year war could be possible.

The Dwemer vanished in either 1E 668 or 1E 700. It came to my at attention that 1E 700 was probably as guess so I'll calculate both and give a timeframe of when they possibly vanished. 
In the First Era there are 2920 Years. 
Adding up the numbers it comes to 2220-2252 years, roughly, before the First Era ended. I say roughly because the exact date when the Dwemer vanished isn’t known but the year it had occurred by.
In the Second Era there are 896 Years.
Adding up the numbers it has been 3116-3148 Years by the time the Second Era ends.
I also on the side wanted to calculate the timeframe from the disappearance for ESO. The timeframe for that setting, 2E: 582, has been 2802-2834 Years.
In the Third Era there are 433 Years.
Adding up the numbers again it comes to 3549-3581 Years, since the disappearance of the Dwarves, by the time the Third Era ends. 
So far, at least, the Fourth Era is incomplete up to Skyrim, so I’ll be marking the disappearance till that point. In the Fourth Era there are 201 Years so far.
So, the final number of years since the Dwemer vanished up until Skyrim has been… 3750-3782 Years.
Not quite 4000 years, with both years, as I have always assumed but nice to finally say I did the math.

The short version:
Time passed in the Final year of the First Era: 2220-2252 Years.
(Time passed during the events of ESO: 2802-2834 Years.) 
Time passed in the final year of the Second Era: 3116-3148 Years. 
Time passed in the final year of the Third Era: 3549-3581 Years.
Time passed by the point of Skyrim in the Fourth Era: 3750-3782 Years.

I had to redo this for the sake of my brain. This gives a 32-year gap of when the disappearance, might, of happened from when the War of the First Council started about 1E 668. I don’t know which date to take so the timeframe is there to give something extra.```

The lower number is for 700 and the higher number is for 668

but either way this gives me perspective on the dates, and a nice thing in my research notes for modding

[faint python]

can someone turn me into a vampire ?

[dusky scaffold]

Another Vampire

[faint python]

what another vampire

[dusky scaffold]

vampirism is generally transferred from other vampires

[faint python]

yes i know i want to be a vampire

[dusky scaffold]

oh, you're the same guy from #skyrim-chat

[faint python]

yes

[short flower]

Hey y'all I need help. What's that piece of text from Morrowind describing the murder of Indoril Neravar? It's describes the Foul Murder scene

[coral mantle]

hidden message in 36 sermons, perhaps? can't think of anything else
He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec

[dusky scaffold]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Nerevar_at_Red_Mountain
They made ritual as if to summon Azura as Nerevar wanted but Almalexia used poisoned candles and Sotha Sil used poisoned robes and Vivec used poisoned invocations. Nerevar was murdered.

[plain ibex]

Question: How do you poison robes? Contact poison isn't a thing unless you count that pickpocket perk in Skyrim where you pour poison into someone's pocket and they get poisoned...

[split iris]

It isn't meant to be taken that literally

[quartz shuttle]

At the end of the day, there isn't really an explicit description, from anyone, of what happened. Even Foul Murder was released years after the fact.

Which may ultimately be the point, Red Moment and all that.

[golden sierra]

you ask about the poisoned robes and not the poisoned incantations?

it's metaphor in any case. metaphor for what, i'm not sure, the Sermons aren't a place i'm too knowledgeable about

someone i saw proposed that it as metaphor for defiling his body but i didn't find it particularly convincing

[solid path]

Back in earlier ES games? Robes enchanted to do damage over time would simulate it nicely.

[hexed venture]

With the release of Skyrim Anniversary edition Creation Club content will become a part of Skyrim. We know that CC is not canon because devs confirmed it. But does it mean that CC is now canon?

[solid path]

Some of it might become canon.

Depends what gets included.

It looks like saints and seducers definitely has that chance, since they're giving it to SSE owners.

[golden sierra]

when did devs confirm it's not canon? just about everything i've seen or heard says otherwise

I am not an official arbiter of Bethesda lore, but I hope you don’t mind if I chime in. Creations are official releases, but it’s also understandable that a site like UESP or the Imperial Library would take CC with a grain of salt. We do consider lore implications when reviewing proposals, particularly something trying to heavily enmesh itself into the world. Connections to the world are great, but we also want to avoid anything being too impactful. That is, we want things to fit into the game world, but we’re also not looking to greatly expand the lore of the game. With historic items, like artifacts, simply existing can have implications for the lore. Although artifacts in Tamriel do have a habit of disappearing and re-materializing in other places. I believe this was even noted in the description of Chrysamere in Daggerfall.

• Cartogriffi
  sounds canon "at best" and semi-canon "at worst"

Emil Pagliarulo seems to lean more toward the semi-canon side of it

[hexed venture]

Gamescom 2020. Emil said that CC content is made to fit in the lore but it is not canonic

He also said that Atomic Shop is 100% not canon

[golden sierra]

Creation Club is... Sort of... As close to canon as we can get... But [...] the lines get blurred. [...] "We want to make sure that everything fits. [...] It's sort of like parallel to canon.

• Emil

combine this with Cartogriffi's and it sounds semi-canon to me

that said, even if it's added to the game in a different edition, i don't believe that it'd be considered under a different level of canonicity, and would remain just as valid (or invalid) to lore as it was before

[plush orchid]

Canon usually has fours levels:

1. In-game
2. In-game books
3. Out-of game books
4. Approved fan content

I believe Todd Howard said this scale in an interview on the Imperial Library.

[golden sierra]

oh?

oh, ik what quote you're talking about. gimme a sec, i can find it

[weak solstice]

Creation club stuff is probably on the level of ingame books

[golden sierra]

"It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, [...] that's the third. [...] But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."

• Todd Howard

[golden sierra]

i would personally put it just under out-of-game books... Moro, do you know where Syfri puts it?

[weak solstice]

With some stuff that could be considered unreliable narrator

[weak solstice]

Second truth, just checked
Which is in-game books level

[golden sierra]

did Syfri ever finish the chart, btw?

[plush orchid]

Yeah my bad Todd only says 3.

Todd Howard: It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third. -Todd Howard 2019 Pax East interview.

[golden sierra]

i already got it Moro 😛

[plush orchid]

Well I got the whole thing not […] hmph

[golden sierra]

hehe

[plush orchid]

But Todd is also only one voice there’s a lot for what canon is I actually think Fandom has a good page on this.

I’ll DM it Nick

[dusky scaffold]

He may be just one voice, but he's the one voice directly setting the series' direction

[robust lintel]

Alduin was originally a bee.

[native olive]

alduin bae confirmed

[robust lintel]

Legendary Baebee incoming

[quartz shuttle]

Vindication!

We have as close to word of god as we're ever going to get that Nibani Maesa is full of it, and you were always the Nerevarine

[pastel sorrel]

nani

[quartz shuttle]

The dev retrospective on Skyrim's opening sequence specifically calls out the Dragonborn being more of a return to the Chosen One concept of the Nerevarine

So, as I've been saying for 15 gat danged years, AZURA WAS RIGHT

[ocean brook]

I thought Nibani's take was that you weren't necessarily the Nerevarine, but could become them?

[quartz shuttle]

That is her take, yes. But it doesn't ultimately match up with any of the other evidence

And we now have direct developer association with the Nerevarine being the chosen one all along, only further solidifying the (frankly) overwhelmingly supported position.

[ocean brook]

remind me agani what the evidence is?

[quartz shuttle]

Azura calling you Chosen in the intro. The terms of all 3 prophecies requiring an Incarnate. The Lost Prophecy requiring you tk be born in Cyrodiil. Surviving the Corpus Cure. Moon and Star not killing you

Supporters of the "Its open to interpretation" perspectice have to interpret Azura's statement as a lie (which makes no sense... Nibani, Azura's priest, is more knowledgeable about the prophecy than its source its self?). Tjey have to assume the Corpus Cure is a fluke. And they have to handwave away Moon and Star as a myth that doesn't actually kill anyone.

[ocean brook]

. . .so what if you decided that your character was born in Skyrim?

[quartz shuttle]

You could twist it to fit. The dragon-born verse kf the Lost Prophecy is typically interpreted as mea ing Cyrodiil, bjt COULD be stretched to the Empire as a whole.

[ocean brook]

hmm

I don't think Azura has to be lying for Nibani's assesement to be accurate

Nibani is speaking of who you are at that moment; Azura, being a Daedra, has a somewhat different persperspective of time, and is likely speaking of you once you've completed your destiny

there are other Failed Incarnates, after all; would Azura have told them that they were destined to flub it all up?

or would she have told them what they were destined to be, if they had the wits and strength to see it through?

[quartz shuttle]

Or, more likely, did she just not talk tk them at all

No other Incarnate mentions talking to Azura. Jacob's Teapot applies. Nk, the absence kf Evidence does nkt equate to the evidence of absence, unless you find no evidence in a situation where it would be expected

The Cavern of the Incarnates is where you would expect tk find SOME mention kf Azura interacting with the others, and yet... nothing.

Even if we dismiss that, you still uabe the fact that the PC needs to be an Incarnate first. That's not something you acheive, thats something you're born with

Then you've got the Corpus Cure, which Fyr plainly says no one had ever survived.

And, again, Moon and Star, which is supposed to kill anyone who is not Nerevar.

And all of this is before dealing with Choloda in ESO, and how Azura makes it very clear he is NOT her Nerevarine, again indicating that she knows the difference between failed (ie premature) incarnates and the Nerevarine.

[ocean brook]

okay, so Azura didn't say anything to any of the others

remind me again; at what point do you get Moon and Star? and did any of the prior wannabes ever attain it?

[quartz shuttle]

In the cavern of the Incarnate, and not that we know of.

As far as we know, the Nerevarine is the first tk wear it since Nerevar.

You get the ring just before you have to go tk the tribes tk be named Nerevarine, and the Houses to be named Hortator

[ocean brook]

okay; so, far as we know, you're the only person who's ever found the thing

as we never have the ring's enchantment studied, nor anyone else try it on to test the whole "die if you're not Nerevar" bit

[quartz shuttle]

No, but given the nature of Dwemer craftsmanship, do we have any reason to doubt it?

Do we have any reason to question that a dwemer made and enchated ring wouldn't do what its stated to?

Again, you have to assume it doesn't do what we are told just tk make the explanation work.

Compared to real myrhology it's kinda tame

Enki and his wife made disabked people while drunk just so Enki could prove he was better

Oh, some of it is.

Lamia Bal is pretty screqed up

Look at it this way. If Molag Bal's lore disgusts you, itz having the desired effect

If it doesn't bkther you, then we have a problem.

Well, in ESO we do laser him in the face

[ocean brook]

um, it would be nice if we had confirmation that said enchantment did what was advertized, regardless of who made it

[quartz shuttle]

It would be, yeah. But we are given no reason to doubt it (besides gameplay, but thats a whole other kettle of fish) so assuming that the accounts are wrong is simply adding a new level of asumption to the equation.

[ocean brook]

we're also not given any way to test it, so I'll concede that this isn't a point worth arguing 🙂

[dusky scaffold]

There's also a great difference between being a degenerate and writing a degenerate

The fact that you find bal repulsive means the writer(s) did a good job

[quartz shuttle]

Exactly. I could write a waaaay more eff'd up character than Molag Bal. I don't particularly WANT to, as that sort of over the top 'evil' isn't really evocative for storytelling... But if necessary i could totally do it

Of course, i also love my history... And humans have done some seriously screwed up things to eachother

[robust lintel]

https://giphy.com/gifs/dr-evil-typography-7H2sVobR4Hkru

[pastel sorrel]

Do we have any reason to believe the statement on its function is actually accurate? Reminder that it's Azura's ring, she's the one who blessed it and controls it.

Among the evidence is actual dev statements that it's intentionally ambiguous, all the way up to being able to deny it to Dagoth Ur who accepts your answer. You'd think these living gods would have the perspective to tell if you are actually Nerevar.

Everything else is claims made by parties with explicit interest in you thinking you're the Nerevarine and carrying out the prophecy.

[pastel sorrel]

Particularly this, this is not evidence that you are Nerevar. This is a very, very general statement, since the idea with the Nerevarine is that Chosen One™️ concept, getting into the meat of it is where the debate comes up, but that's a little outside the scope of a general statement about a general idea.

[quartz shuttle]

The fact we are told by a scholarly source in-universe that the Dwemer created the ring with a safeguard that would kill anyone but Nerevar who wore it

[pastel sorrel]

Created the ring and blessed by Azura

Even if that was the original intent for the sake of argument, it's been in her hands for millennia since.

[quartz shuttle]

Let me go find the source...

[pastel sorrel]

the claim itself is tautologically millennia old

[quartz shuttle]

From the book The Real Nerevar

In that time, House Dwemer were great enchanters, so Nerevar went in secret to a Dwemer smith and asked for an enchanted ring that would help him. The ring gave its wearer great powers of persuasion; for safety, it was enchanted to instantly kill anyone who wore it except Nerevar. The ring was called Moon-and-Star, and it helped Nerevar unite the various clans into the First Council.

The ring's enchantments are from the Dwemer, not Azura

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Generic_Dialogue_M

`Moon-and-Star

"The enchanted ring called Moon-and-Star -- or One-Clan-Under-Moon-and-Star, as the Ashlanders call it -- was forged for the hero Nerevar by one of the Dwemer Sorcerer-Priest Kagrenac's smiths, and blessed by the Daedra Lord Azura. The ring gave Nerevar supernatural powers of persuasion and indisputable proof of identity, since any other who tried to wear the ring would be killed instantly."`

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, but that doesn't state that the enchantment had anything to do with Azura

[pastel sorrel]

Blessed by Azura

That typically implies a measure of enchantment

But even that aside, it's been in her hands since. And it wouldn't be the first mortal-made artifact to be modified by a daedric prince who comes to own it.

[quartz shuttle]

I wouldn't go that far. Blessings get thrown around on things all the time

A blessing doesn't it's self mean anything.

[pastel sorrel]

Princes aren't known for just handing blessings out, and Nerevar was her own champion.

aaaand i gotta run, hnnnnng

[quartz shuttle]

No problem, this is a topic which i am certan will come up again

[ocean brook]

why is this topic of such interest anyway?

[robust lintel]

It has come up multiple times already and I usually see Lach in the middle of it lol 😋

[quartz shuttle]

Guilty, as charged.

Like the Thalmor and the Towers, the Nerevarine is one of the main examples of poor scholarship in the fandom its an adherance to a single source's interpretation and a twisting of evidence to fit that, rather than following the evidence to where it leads

And as an Anthropologist, that just rubs me the wrong way

And the specific topic is rather close to my heart, because Morrowind and i have a tumultuous relationship. I initially hated the game, but eventually warmed up to it, largely because of its lore.

[ocean brook]

poor scholarship?

[quartz shuttle]

Good scholarship requires a considerstion for all sources of evidence and information, and an establishment of explanation based on that.

You don't take a single statement and then build an explanation out of it, twisting things to fit. You incorporate that statement into the explanation alongside the other information.

The problem with the 'You become the Nerevarine' explanation is that it takes Nibani'a single line of dialogue as absolute truth, and then tries to make everything else fit with thaf.

When good scholarship requires you to take all the evidence, her statement included, and formulate an explanation that explains it all cohesively.

Now, good scholarship can result in competing explanations, that's totally normal. But they typically need to both explain the evidence just as adequately.

And dismissing multiole points as fake, lies or flukes, and fabricating 'evidence' to facilitate a position, does not make for an adequate explanation.

Moon and Star is a prime example of this problem. In order for Nibani to be right, the story of the ring killing anyone but Nerevar HAS to be wrong.

We have no reason to doubt it, other than it has to be for the explanation to work. There is no source doubting the claim, no scenario to reliably test it, nothing.

Could it be wrong? Absolutely. But the evidence we have gives no reason to suspect that.

[ocean brook]

erm, that's possible due to writer oversight, or just "the stories of anyone else putting the ring on have been lost"

[quartz shuttle]

Azura's intro dialogue is another example. She clearly establishes you as Chosen. So, in order for the Acheivement argument to be true, she either needs to be lying (which, again, we have no reason to believe she is) or she has to have said that tk all the others as well (which, again, we have no evidence for)

Sure, and were it a single datum, you could handwave it away. But its not a single thing. Its multiple

[ocean brook]

and Dagoth Ur, flat out asking you if you're Nerevar Reborn?

[quartz shuttle]

He asks if you believe it, and commends your conviction if you say no

[ocean brook]

. . . and what's the point of him doing that? you're arguing that the evidence says you are Nerevar, so he's complimenting you for steadfastly ignoring the evidence to believe what you want?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes. Because Dagoth Ur, mad as he is, is still a gentleman. He beleives in destiny, but he himself rails against it.

[ocean brook]

so . . . he's nuts, but well-mannered, and admires you for sharing the delusion he cherishes, even as he knows that the two of you are going to start murdering each other in the next few seconds?

[quartz shuttle]

That matches his behavior, yes

For instance the Prophecy specifically fortells his defeat. And yet he rather politely tries to stop you, and surprised when yoh attack the heart

He recognizes the significance kf destiny, but actively fights against its outcome anyway, and he does so as frankly the most polite villian in the entire franchise

[ocean brook]

. . .so why is there a cavern full of failed incarnates?

[quartz shuttle]

Because they weren't in the oven long enough.

Some of the Prophecy is time sensitive, and Azura doesn't control WHEN an Incarnate goes through.

Wrong time, failed Incarnate. The Nerevarine has to be an Incarnate, that's one of the requirements. But that doesnt mean every Incarnate is the Nerevarine.

[ocean brook]

. . .

so . . . you can be the Incarnate, and still not be the Neravarine, because you happened to show up at the wrong time

[slender latch]

ESO refutes that with the failed incarnate you put down. A failed incarnate is a person that has chosen to go down the path of the nerevarine and failed.

[ocean brook]

so the Failed Incarnates are people who, knowingly or unknowingly, tried to usurp the position

according to ESO

?

[slender latch]

Yep. They choose to walk the path of the incarnate. It’s a bit like mantling a position.

[quartz shuttle]

ESO actually indicated the opposite. Azura is fully aware that Choloda is an Incarnate, be he is not her Nerevarine

Choloda tries tk convince others he is the Nerevarine, but Azura is very explicit that he is not, indicating that she is fully aware of which Incarnate will be the Nerevarine.

Which makes sense, since ESO is pre-Corpus, so it's impossible for Choloda to fulfil the prophecy

[ocean brook]

. . .why the heck can there be Incarnates who aren't Nerevarines?

[quartz shuttle]

Because when you throw a soul back into the mix, you don't know when it's going to come around again

[slender latch]

It is not impossible for him because he actually accomplishes the curse of flesh due to the staff he receives. Azura sends us after him as he fails and is tempted by clavicus vile

Plus there have been two false incarnates alive at the same time.

[quartz shuttle]

Azura sends us after him because he tries to cheat the Curse of Flesh with the staff

He tries to become something he is not

[ocean brook]

there's something wonky about this whole thing; Azura can predict the actual Neravarine, which means she knows there can be potential Incarnates who will be running around, and she doesn't even come up with something for them to do?

that's still the soul of her champion back on Nirn; you'd think that would be useful for something

she's vain, not stupid

[quartz shuttle]

It only seems to be part of Nerevat's soul. Souls are weird

We're still not entirely sure how the actially work

Only that Incarnation is distinct from Mantling, and is something inborn

Built on the cobbles of destiny

[ocean brook]

and if it doesn't happen at the right time, it's seemingly pointless

[quartz shuttle]

Prophecies are funny like that

Its worth noting, if course, that Vivec's account of what happened has Azura blame the Tribunal.

[ocean brook]

Vivec has issues

[quartz shuttle]

Could she just be blowing hot air, or are things actually out of her control? She is the god of prophecy, afterall, the whole thing could just be her seeing what the consequences of the Tribunals actions would be

And yes, he does

[ocean brook]

Azura's almost, but not quite, a Norn-like figure, so I can see her having an imperfect control over What Happens Next

she's not weaving the threads of fate so much as viewing them, and acting accordingly

Vivec, however, seems to feel that Azura helped the eventual downfall of the Tribunal along, by driving Almalexia mad and doing other nefarious things

because Azura's a vain one and couldn't stand 'her' Dunmer worshipping three mortal upstarts

who were, naturally, totally justified in stealing godhood, because that's what Mephala and Boethaih basically taught their people to do

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, Azura's exact role in the whole thing is murky

[ocean brook]

her role in the Chimer pantheon is murky too; she's the odd one out of the three Good Daedra

[quartz shuttle]

Given what they were tamperinf with, its equally possible that the tribunal was responsible fkr the transformation of the Dunmer and their own downfall, as it is the Azura orchistrated both

[undone fable]

Idk if I'd say they were justified in using the Heart

[ocean brook]

Boethiah and Mephala I can see pal-ing around to teach a bunch of elves how to be Drow, but Azura?

I say justified, in the senser that "hey, you taught us to lie, cheat, and murder for our own glory"

[quartz shuttle]

Based on Khajiiti myth, Azura and Boethia are full on Team Lorkhan

[undone fable]

They would have been better in the long run if they simply destroyed it originally and Dagoth Ur wouldn't have been a problem.

Ah, I see your point though.

[ocean brook]

and Lorkhan seems to want people to atain godhood

. . . .just not by stealing it from his bodily organs

[undone fable]

Yeah the whole thing about he failed at CHIM so others could succeed

[ocean brook]

which is an odd way to teach someone

[undone fable]

I still don't grasp CHIM and Mantling completely

[ocean brook]

"okay, see what I just did? DON"T DO THAT"

[quartz shuttle]

I don't think he deliberately failed CHIM. I think Et'ada are just inherently incapable of really getting it

You need limits in order to truly overcone limitation, yeah?

The Et'ada werw functionally limitless, it would be impossibke for them tk truly understand CHIM. So, Lorkhan masterminded Mundus. An Apotheosis machine he cohld keep feeding quarters into until he got it right

So, Azura and Boethia may want the Dunmer to find the RIGHT kind of godhood.

[undone fable]

Seems like Vivec's contributions are the most extensive that became available though. Assuming he really knew what he was talking about, there is the alternate interpretation that he merely wrote propaganda to make the Tribunal seem more powerful and legitimate than they really were.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

Still, even his account is vague regarding Azura's actual agency in the change

[undone fable]

A pretty big topic change. I'm attempting a short story presented as an in-game book. The plot is set around 4E 8 in Skyrim. I was wondering if there are any laws written in Skyrim forbidding Necromancy?

I know Imperial Law isn't too keen on it but doesn't outright make it illegal

[quartz shuttle]

Tat would be post Mages Guild ban, so imagine its probably illegal

[undone fable]

Maybe, but at that time the guild was already disbanded

[dusky scaffold]

necromancy isn't really illegal in skyrim during TES5, at least

[sand flume]

its said the ban on necromancy was lifted when mages guild fell

[undone fable]

True, but I can't really imagine Nords being ok with it since they are very superstitious. Most Necromancers are hiding in caves, ruins, or pretty far from cities in the wilderness.

[solid path]

Well, there's "illegal", and "I'll hit you in the face with my axe, and no one will object".

[sand flume]

"If you require assistance with summoning techniques, please let me know. If you would, please also contain your summons to the College grounds. The locals do not need to be agitated further by Atronachs roaming their town. The summoning of undead is even less advisable outside of the College."

Summoning undead isn't frowned upon?
"By Sheor, no. Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild, and were never enforced here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used. Of course, non-mages may not see it that way, so we don't go around flaunting it."

when talking to phinis gestor

[undone fable]

Isn't he talking about the College's position?

[sand flume]

Those archaic policies died out with the Mages Guild

still admits non mages dont like it though

for obvious reasons

[quartz shuttle]

4e8 would still be really close to the fall of the mages guild. I imagine most of thejr laws would still be on the books

[sand flume]

except synod likes necromancy
scratch that i misread a quote

[undone fable]

Most nords aren't mages. Plus isn't there dialogue where one of the college instructors tells you not to do things in view of the townsfolk?

[dusky scaffold]

I don't think necromancy was ever illegal, it's just the mages guild that expelled everyone who openly practiced necromancy

[sleek grove]

The Midden is where darker magic was practiced

At the Skyrim College. It's also where the Auger met his fate

[pastel sorrel]

Hannibal Traven was the one who most recently banned necromancy in the Mages Guild, it's always had a rocky history

[sand flume]

the college of whispers likes necromancy

[pastel sorrel]

College of Whispers is okay with necromancy, Synod bans it, College of Winterhold never banned it.

[sand flume]

same quote that i sent

[undone fable]

The whole premise I have is a dunmer moves near Whiterun sometime after the Red Year, gets labelled a Necromancer just because he is a dunmer, gets caught practicing Ancestor Worship, and is put on trial because obviously with all the immigrants it's a tricky situation.

I just want to make sure it's plausible lore-wise

[sleek grove]

Well the Auger is in the Midden Dark which is also where the Pirate Daedra's prison is

And the forge I guess lol

[sand flume]

instead of a trial you could just have a mob of angry nords

seems more plausible lore wise

[undone fable]

That could work

The idea of trial sounds fun to me though, I could work in a mob still along with it

[sand flume]

otherwise you can just claim the jarl at the time really didnt like necromancy

[undone fable]

That works really well actually

[pastel sorrel]

Why would he be labeled a necromancer right off the bat? Nords aren't that dumb. Especially given Whiterun's nature as a central hub, people of all walks go through there.

And for that matter, necromancy isn't necessarily outlawed, just shunned given its morbid nature and because it's typically outlaws engaging in it.

[ocean brook]

also, Whiterun's housecarl is Dunmer, and would quickly explain the difference to Balgurf, who trusts her word

however, if you tied the event to Whiterun's own problems - say, the fued between the Grey-Manes and the Battle-Borns . . .

[golden sierra]

tbf Lorkhan quite literally is Limitation

if any et'Ada would have the limits needed to overcome limitation, it'd be Limitation itself, no?

that said, a good few people theorize that he didn't really do it with thought

moreso acting for the sake of acting rather than acting because of a particular goal

welp, buhbye paragraph 😔 gotta get censored

[golden sierra]

it's frowned upon, but not illegal. more like a "social outcast" frowned upon rather than an "axe to the face" frowned upon

[golden sierra]

it's more of a "the college is already in a terrible place socially, let's not make it worse, aight?"

[golden sierra]

in ESO a lot of the abilities from the Necromancy class give you a bounty if done in cities. whether that's representative of lore or not is somewhat up to you, i suppose, especially as to whether or not it was legal in the empire (especially considering we also have a text from ESO describing it being legal in the Empire), but the Empire barely exists at the time so meh

In some parts of Tamriel, notably Cyrodiil, the vile practice of necromancy has even become accepted as a valid, and legally tolerated, magical discipline.

• Guild Memo on Soul Trapping

[quartz shuttle]

Maybe. Lorkhan's sphere has never been clearly defined, and various community attempts to define it have resulted in different ideas. Limitation, Space, Misanthropy, Treachery, Ambition... it's still not clear exactly what Lorkhan represented, cosmically.

[golden sierra]

personally i go with "Space and Limitation"

misanthropy is an interesting one, considering Lorkhan and most variations thereof are literally the god of mortality or god of man

treachery is understandable, and ambition i can kind of see i suppose, but i think that title usually falls on Dagon

[golden sierra]

hmmm...

i guess the whole of Lorkhan's sphere in the circles that i hang with ends up being Space and Limitation, and therefore also Mortality, and therefore also Death

his would also explain uhhhhh

[pastel sorrel]

I would argue Lorkhan isn't so much Limitation, but Definition

by Akatosh's existence could anything persist in stable form, but by Lorkhan's existence does anything have anywhere to exist in.

[golden sierra]

hm

interesting way to look at it

[pastel sorrel]

It's like in the original end of Evangelion. You need that line drawn to define the land and ground

[golden sierra]

i think a lot of the Limitation bit comes from the fact that he's subgradient to Sithis. Sithis is Nothing, Lorkhan is Limitation - something of the gap between Nothing and Everything. it also, imo, fits the fact that his Heart is the Heart of the Realm of Limitation

[pastel sorrel]

He's allegedly subgradient to Sithis. According mainly to Altmeri theology, which is far from unbiased.

[golden sierra]

i couldn't find what i was looking for but it was something to do with Lorkhan dying repeatedly

[golden sierra]

is not Dunmeri theology along the same lines?

[pastel sorrel]

I would argue those who would define him as the god of Limitation fails to understand his role. Even Sithis's role in Altmeri theology is simply to act as a prism for Anuiel to refract himself by.

[golden sierra]

the Psijic Endeavor (named after PSJJJJ, i.e. Sithis) has a lot of reliance on Lorkhan

which would fit the whole "Lorkhan is subgradient to Sithis" thing really, really nicely

[pastel sorrel]

The Dunmeri Sithis is not quite the same as the Psijic Sithis, mind. They have different views.

[golden sierra]

doesn't change the fact that they seem to agree on Lorkhan being subgradient to Sithis

[pastel sorrel]

There's a lot of grey area with the Psijic Endeavour and the etymology of everything, it's a bit of a mess and stuff's gotten muddied over time

Dunmer were Altmer originally, bear in mind. It stands to reason they might be influenced by their old theology, Good Daedra notwithstanding.

Just because they agree, doesn't mean they're correct to do so.

Especially as the Altmeri theology itself is somewhat ignored by its own adherents. Sithis's role is merely to aid Anuiel's all-encompassing existence, but many consider Sithis to be a bad thing.

Has real-world ties with not everyone quite following the scripture as it were.

Sithis is essentially "what Anuiel is not", and when you cross-reference their focus on Good And Praxic™️ behaviour, Sithis is essentially "what we are not". Lorkhan as his son or subgradient is effectively a demonization, a chaotic Enemy™️ to pin the blame on.

When in reality he's just as fundamental as his brother.

[golden sierra]

is it generally agreed upon that Akatosh is subgradient to Anu or Anuiel?

[pastel sorrel]

That's the Altmeri theology that he's a subgradient

outside of that he's usually the top dog or in the echelon thereof immediately underneath the Aurbic interplay.

It's unclear who's got the right of it.

But yeah. I'm pretty sure Lorkhan is even meant to be the Jester archetype in more esoteric terms. He's the trickster god mucking things up as he sees fit, because he's seen behind the facade and he's gonna trick us into seeing it too whether we like it or not.

where his brother is the straight man trying to keep things in order, Lorkhan keeps it from getting too stale. Both are needed.

Not so much limiting things, but letting them be many different things, giving them the Space to do so as his brother gives them the Time to do so.

Arguably Altmeri theology might be stealing his thunder to give to Sithis and Anuiel, thinking about it.

Could even be an actual thing tying in with their cultural views; just as they think Aldmeris was somewhere else and couldn't possibly be the very lands they inhabit already alongside these stinky mutant descendants of Lorkhan's armies, surely the devil Lorkhan himself couldn't possibly be just as fundamental as Auriel/Akatosh and it must instead be beings above both of them who are doing all of this.

That might be the biggest irony of the Altmer. In their attempts to hold onto the past, they've possibly actually gotten the furthest away from it.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[sand flume]

things are different because of limitation, without limitation everything is just everything

[undone fable]

This is set in 4E 8. None of the people who were around Whiterun in ES V are around at this time. The Oblivion Crisis just happened, so magick in general probably had a bad rap at this time.

So imagine a Dunmer immigrant moving near Whiterun at this time. Surely there is some apprehension, and Ancestor Worship could easily be misunderstood.

[ocean brook]

oh

[brave shoal]

i imagine the elf saying he speaking to his ancestor and nord mistake it as him conjuring ghost to talk too like a necromancer and fist fight ensue

[ocean brook]

I was just playing Skyrim earlier today; the Nords treat their ancestors fairly closely, too

offerings of food and wine, even though the draugr roaming around are pretty much past the point of having a working stomach anymore

[brave shoal]

difference is dark elf summon the spirit of their ancestors for a talk while nords don't (at least judging by some eso quest when i get sent to ancient dunmer tomb to go ask questions to some spirits about stuff)

[ocean brook]

well, that, and I believe the Dunmer feel that it's the duty of the dead to adviose and safeguard the living, while the Nords feel the dead are supposed to be partying in Sovngarde, and are showing their respects and their familial loyalty through offerings

[uncut hatch]

Ok so I'm carrying a discussion over from another channel. Hopefully someone can answer it for us.
TL; DR
I think that is we assume that the Canon will state that Ulfric, Tulius and the Mede Emperor were all assassinated and this was accomplished in masterful manipulation from the Councilor whom we only killed the doppelganger... The next TES game will basically be a Morrowind-esk unification of the Daggerfall Covenant against the Aldmeri Dominion.

[slender latch]

Mede is definitely dead no matter your choice as someone from the brotherhood survives either way and Cicero is still out there.
The others will probably be left ambiguous.

[uncut hatch]

Long version:
Morrowind's house Redoran has just been injected with lots of Ebony. The young but sympathetic High Queen will be able to mend a broken Skyrim. The Argonians King doubts the survival of the An-Xileel party that rules currently.

The fight in hammerfel continues. High rock and the Wrothgar Mountains are already assumed to be part of the settling of TES VI.

I believe uniting various clans, crowns, lords, tribes and maybe even pirate fleets will be the goal of the protagonist. They may even sprinkle in that Septim emperor returning plot they mentioned as the OG Skyrim concept.

[undone fable]

Do we even know where ES VI is set?

[dusky scaffold]

in the Aurbis

[undone fable]

Everything I've seen so far is just speculation. I think people are thinking it will be in Hammerfall? Or was it High Rock?

[solid path]

Having the High Queen (I presume you mean Elsif) relies on her side winning the Civil War though, surely? If that's not a given, so as not to fix the canon of a player choice, then you cant rely on on her being in charge.

[uncut hatch]

I disagree. It relies on her winning the moot. Ulfric kept her alive.

[sand flume]

i think the easiest way of protecting player choice is:
there is no empire
there is no stormcloak rebellion
there is no high king
there is only dominion

[solid path]

A fair point, but I don't see it being an automatic case of her getting the throne. Or that she's able to get the Stormcloaks to follow her if Ulfric is assassinated. (Which in itself runs counter to "player" canon).

I'm not sure it packages up that neatly.

[quartz shuttle]

The whole Civil War thing is just another example of why Mutually Exclusive endings are dumb