elder-scrolls-lore

[proven moss]

In TES it's the daedra, rather than the aedra, whom are modeled on the classical tradition

Sure there is an entire pantheon of aedra, but the way they act is more analogous to how, for example, the Abrahamic religions expect God to act

The daedra appear to mortals, taunt them, trick them, fight them, give them boons, quests, etc

[rugged wing]

Ah so i can't have a quest where you look for a sword made from Stuhn's tooth that got knocked out by a legendary nord or old.

Any daedra associated with the Nordic pantheon who also could work as a warrior god type?

Iirc haenous mora or however you spell his name is in the old nordic pantheon, but i think the rest of the pantheon in part of the nine or nord specific and still not daedra

[dusk nexus]

Well, Godd Howard said that they pref. if fans are interpreting and expanding the lore however they want 😛
So tehnically You can, unless You dont want to expand or change lore a bit xD

[rugged wing]

Nah, i don't want to do that sort of thing. I already sort of am with my town mods fleshing out an aristocracy in Skyrim with Thanes ruling towns

[dusk nexus]

You wont blasphemy against Godd Howard? :x...
It's fine, also I don't think Nords have any other "Warrior" gods than Talos

[rugged wing]

I mean Shor and Stuhn seem quite warlike.

Stuhn wants to fight you to enter sovengarde

[proven moss]

Mauloch (Malacath) is associated with the Nordic pantheon, but he's an antagonistic warrior god

An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the “Year of Winter in Summer”.

Ysmir is of course a mortal-hero figure that's revered/worshipped

[dusk nexus]

Well... Dragonborn is pretty much similar to the Avatar ( the anime Avatar )
Proff of it is with Sheogorath, in TES 5 Skyrim You getting Wabbajack, no questions asked cuz Sheo know who You are ( even if You dont ) 😄
I think he even have a dialogue line about it... but I dont remember exactly...

Actually... to Cyrodiil, Dragonborn is kinda sort of a God :x...

Dragonborn to Empire is same what Talos to Skyrim I think... or similar at least xD

[glacial scarab]

Well that's a problem. They don't care for Dragonborn.

[glacial scarab]

Think the Daedra would be more testing gods then ones that would be part of their Pantheon.

[glacial scarab]

Reminds me of how much the Empire side really wasn't thought of goverment wise.

Tullius being the Military Governor only coming from Ralof in the intro and Skyrim is missing a lot to show that as even Solitudes court never calls him a Governor.

[dusk nexus]

Tullius is only general of Cyrodiil and in Skyrim he is the Military Governor sended to stop the riots and unrest caused by Ulfric? :x...

He is not even in Skyrim when Ulfric kills Toryg, Tullius is getting sended like few months after the murder :x

[glacial scarab]

By Military Governor he's the Governor of all of Skyrim.

Only other time we hear of that title is early in the Empires occupation of Morrowind where Symmachus was the Military Governor of Morrowind. He was the Military Governor until Barenziah was ready to rule as the Queen of Morrowind where he became her Prime Minister. Though there is a Imperial Proconsul (another Imperial Governor for an Imperial Province) of Morrowind but we don't know when that position became a thing.

[dusk nexus]

Well... he's the governor of HALF of the Skyrim xD
Other half ( the better one ( Riften ) ) is against him 😄

[mossy moss]

Yes

[balmy salmon]

I've always felt that ESO was where the Imperials' armor started to peak, because it found a middle ground between the more medieval plate armor of TES IV, and the more Roman inspired armors of TES III and V.

And this style didn't remain strictly Second Era either, because this is how TES Legends depicted the Imperial Legion at the Battle of the Red Ring https://images.uesp.net/d/dc/LG-quest-The_Siege_of_the_Imperial_City_02.jpg

And here's an Imperial officer in TES V style armor leading Imperial cavalry in more ESO styled armor https://images.uesp.net/0/01/LG-quest-The_Siege_of_the_Imperial_City_04.jpg

[fading flame]

As you know Sheogorath is cursed. Does Malacath have anything to do with it? Or was there no timeline when he was cursed.

Also, is an imperial sword uhhh.... Well steel? I mean in Oblivion all the guards things were silver. I am assuming to be able to do damage to mythical creatures

[proven moss]

By virtue of being a Prince, that would implicate him by default. But it's possible Sheogorath was cursed before Malacath was.

Although... time in Oblivion is really timey-wimey

It might not matter

[fading flame]

True, although some book somewhere says something along the lines that boethia I think it was ate someone important then he became a prince.

[proven moss]

Yeah, Trinimac, the Aldmeri god and Auri-El's strongest warrior

[glacial scarab]

Oblivion used Silver Swords for all guards presumably due to the Oblivion Crisis having them fight leveled daedra which might reisist certain weapon types. TES4 didn't have a Legion sword.
TES3 and 5 had steel Legion swords.

Morrowinds Imperial Shortsword and a Imperial Broadsword and then Skyrims Imperial Sword

[raw grail]

Woah, I like Morrowind's

I also love the... Uhh... Concave part of Skyrim's

The rest of Morrowind's is way cooler tho

[fading flame]

Um.... they seem more polished in morrowind. Also would it be bad if the imperial swords would be silver?

[glacial scarab]

Silver was the left image and steel was the right image.

[balmy salmon]

I figure the shinier polish in Morrowind was because of the simpler textures compared to Skyrim.

Here's another Imperial sword, Dragon's Oath from the Civil War Champions creation.

On the topic of silver weapons, the Legion soldiers at Fort Frostmoth in TES III also used silver weapons, probably because of the werewolves on Solstheim.

[glacial scarab]

Morrowind was following Roman swords while Skyrim the roman part moved to other parts of the equipment from memory.

From what I recall TES3 Legion wise had Swords, Shield, Helmets (Steel and Templar), Cuirass (steel and temple) be Roman while the rest did their own thing
TES5 did helmets, chest and the studs on the boots as Roman while the others did their own thing.

[dusk nexus]

I has just question~!
How ya think cuz... if You visit Riften, Bryn is trying to run Scam with You, he distracts everybody with Falmersblood Potion while You steal the ring... but if You go to Helga house and look at her bedroom, aside from a lot of lubricant, horker tusks and other fancy stuff, You can see Falmersblood Potion on her desk next to the bed.

Its I think only way that You can get the Falmersblood Potion because the ones on Bryn stall are static so u cant pick them up.
So question...

Did Bryn runned same scam before, and Helga got scammed? But then how everybody gather around already knowing Bryn's scam?
Everybody would already know Bryn Falmers Scam, so they would not gather for the ten time around for it...
Or
Is Helga and Bryn working together to run that scam? Then it would be weird that Bryn sends You to take money from her... and origin of the potion would be questionable...

The Falmersblood Potion can be found in Helga bedroom before You run a scam with Bryn...
So Im just curious... how did it happend that she is having the bottle of it, even more how is she having it before Bryn and Player scam?

[sharp lantern]

Guards used steel in Oblivion but the Legion soldiers at Kvatch and Sutch used steel.

[balmy salmon]

Considering one of his claims was "make love like a sabre cat," and the fact that the guild extorts Haelga for protection money, it sounds to me like she got scammed.

[glacial scarab]

Guards in Oblivion used steel bows but the arrows and swords were Silver.

[sharp lantern]

Whoops, I meant to say guards use silver lmao

[balmy salmon]

TES III and IV treated silver weapons as a step above steel, while TES V treated them as weaker weapons with niche applications against undead and werewolves, so it makes sense that the Legion isn't using them in Skyrim.

[raw grail]

Which I love

I love the designs on all of that creation's stuff tbh. The actual creation is lackluster but cool gear

[fading flame]

skyrim also kinda did that. Well, only if you did the companions questline and they were pretty much only good against werewolves not sure about undead

[mint osprey]

Sotha Seal

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/fozzy-fozzie-bear-fozzy-bear-fozzie-muppets-gif-9055812099601683817

[rugged wing]

How common should I make Chiefs for Nord hamlets/villages? In rural Skyrim I often add Hamlets that dot the land, officially I make it so a region is ruled by a Thane who answers to a Jarl, as landed nobles do. My wonder is in Skyrim would it be lore friendly to make rural hamlets of 3-4 familes be organized under Chiefs or not?

iirc Reachmen operate under Clans but it sounds like only some Nords are under clans, ie those with fame and money like Battle Born, or those whose family had such things but have since lost it like Roggi Knot Beard whose clan founded Kynesgrove but is now just this destitute drunkard

[slate shoal]

tbh I imagine the Falmer didn't anticipate violence from the Atmorans seeing how they were murdered so easily

[prime peak]

What do elves think of beast races

Do they also see them as below like they do men

[glacial scarab]

Depends on the culture and the timeframe.

Morrowind didn't view them as people.

[rugged wing]

Bandit Chiefs are common, would it stand to reason Nord villages at least those in rural areas be organized under Chiefs?

Then again in most villages we see leadership more just be those with money, head of a large family or the eldest non senile person in the village

[slate shoal]

varies

Some Altmer view them as lesser beings while some don't think so poorly of others
but all races are like this in TES

the Dunmer had slaves but also the twin lamps; no race is wholly one sided

[balmy salmon]

The Altmer also enslave goblins.

[prime peak]

I keep getting the watch your language message but I’m not saying any bad words??

[prime peak]

So pretty much everyone has been enslaved/ has enslaved at one point

[balmy salmon]

I miss how the old forums simply censored individual words in posts rather than having to delete the entire offending posts.

[fading flame]

Altmer think everyone but themselves are inferior

Well the thalmor to be more specific and fanatics

[slate shoal]

correct

[mossy moss]

eh, they (not all of them) see it that way from a cultural perspective too. even Queen Ayrenn in ESO saw others as lesser races that needed the Altmer's guiding hand.

[fading flame]

Is she really patronizing like that? Or does she want to just rule the ruby throne and says that like a I guess a “political statement”? Is the best words I can think of for her

[gaunt bear]

For those who want to know, the reason why I created my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction is because I’m exploring the consequences of this question: What would happen if the Anchor (https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor) interacts with the magic of an Elder Scroll? My answer that I’m working on is that the energy resulting from the interaction causes far-reaching consequences across Thedas and Mundus, even across time and space.

Also, I’ve got that the rightful king and queen of the Aldmeri Dominion and their followers (the “Altmer Royalists”) have sided with the Inquisition because they believe that the Thalmor have gotten way out of control and need to be brought to heel, by force if needed. But while Maxwell (my Inquisitor) and Matthias (my Dragonborn) welcome them with one hand, they keep the other on their weapons, just in case.

[fading flame]

I feel like the Hero of Kavatch has done something I guess technically done something bad or evil. And you don't get to play that holy paladin you want to. You have to do a deadric quest, you have to kill vampires who clearly don't want to die when doing Azura's quest. Only one that I think is the least evil is Malacath's and Peryites really. Maybe Hircine but attacking a unicorn that's just chilling and very rare is probably the definition of poaching.

[upper field]

The Unicorn is one of Hircine's creations whose purpose is to be the "ultimate prey."

[gaunt bear]

The Elder Scrolls games is all about moral flexibility. It’s up to Y-O-U to decode what’s right and what’s wrong.

[fading flame]

W-H-O? >:(

But I guess to do an evil to save the world, but wouldn't that make it two wrongs don't make a right? Fighting someone who is wrong and believes something is his and you doing something wrong to fix this evil invasion... But I guess two negatives multiplied/divided do make a positive.

[slate shoal]

it's more how you abide by the morals people have in the world imo

like you can roleplay as a pirate who steals and doesn't care, OR you can play as a paladin who never attacks first and keeps peace when possible

[balmy salmon]

If I recall, Azura asked the hero to end their suffering, because they've probably gone insane from thirst at this point.

[fading flame]

Could you imagine killing someone because they went insane. I mean is it her place to decide that? but only prince quest I can see that is harmless is... Well Malacath because well enslavement is always bad, and Sanguine because he is a troll... I love his quest in oblivion so much.

[balmy salmon]

It's an act of mercy. They sealed themselves up as to ensure they didn't hurt anyone, and Azura asks you to end their suffering.

Could you imagine killing someone because they went insane.
It's a pretty common theme in games, to have enemies that were intelligent but have succumbed to madness and turned into feral predators that cannot be reasoned with and will try to tear out your throat as soon as they see you.

Heck, in Fallout New Vegas, killing feral ghouls grants positive karma.

[raw grail]

It might be the r word for treating people badly based on race

[mossy moss]

i think you are associating black and white morality with a quest when morality is more complicated than that. the vampires may not want to die, but they’re bloodstarved. they have lost their mental faculties.

slaying them is doing them a justice they want. they want to be remembered as champions of Azura, who faithfully served their Lady:

We served Lady Azura. Bring these, our last words, to the [sic] Her Shrine. We praise Her with the full fountain of our devotion.

Our destinies were written in the stars, that our souls and reason be slain, and our world lost forever.

None can escape Her Fate. But let us be remembered at Her shrine, and in the hearts of Her servants.```

[fading flame]

Not really morally complicated at all.

[fading flame]

I mean there are cures to vampirism. But such as, well I am sure you know as well as I do the mages guild, college of Winterhold and plenty of witches willing to experiment.

[raw grail]

I don't think the Mages Guild or College has ever indicated having a cure, and what cures we do know of are almost exclusively through Daedric powers of some sort

Even then, the existence of cures is actively kept hidden by various organizations across Tamriel, and is often considered a myth

[fading flame]

I am not sure about the stone in deepscorn hallow too. Idk if that was just thrown in there or has been somewhere in lore forever as well.

[raw grail]

Yeah idrk what's going on there either ngl

[fading flame]

If I had know there is a rock that cures that... and a salt mine right there next to it. Something is at play.

Or it's a gameplay vs lore things and they wanted to do something for gameplay

[fading flame]

Also wouldn't a good way to precieve elder scrolls be like... Perhaps, each events done in Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall/Arena of been done by anyone... So to prevent contradictions? It doesn't need to be the Eternal Champion, The Agent, Nerverine, HoK and Dragonborn right?

[rugged wing]

gameplay wise, thoughts on making it so super rural blacksmiths only forge basic weapons and armor, with most of their stock being misc metal work useful for Farmers and the like?

ie selling Nails, Hinges, Lanterns, pickaxes, wood axes, kettles, pots and pans and only a few Iron swords and some iron armor?

meanwhile City smiths often forge far more weapons and armor for the armies of the Jarls

Lore wise it doesn't make sense for the inventories of Blacksmiths in rural farming villages to have as extensive inventories as say a Smith in Whiterun or Dawnstar would have for weapons and armor

[errant sage]

Could've sworn a dev said something like this years ago. That we should assume everything that could occur did occur but that didn't necessarily mean it was done by the same person. Could be misremembering though. Haven't been seriously following TES until relatively recently.

[sharp lantern]

For side quests, yes. Barring a couple.

But not for the main quest.

[fading flame]

So I know daedric princes cannot... Create, they can only alter. But I forget who, I watched a video saying this is probably a bad summery but a summery none the less. "Sheogorath has mortal subjects who can create and think for themselves make something, so in turn he can create something unique. ",Though i am not sure if he needs something to turn into what he has but I guess like an original idea?

[spare tangle]

Daedra cannot create?

[sharp lantern]

I've heard people say it, but I don't know what it is based on.

Daedra and Aedra were one and the same before the world was created after all.

[proven moss]

The quote comes from Aedra and Daedra
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/aedra-and-daedra

[sharp lantern]

Well there you go lol.

Still odd though that they wouldn't be "able to create."

[heady wave]

If the Monomyth is to be believed, maybe that after the creation of Mundus, they lost that ability when the Daedra scoffed at the idea? They have everything they need in the worlds they created out of themselves, "creating" anything on Mundus would be a waste of time.

This is also dependent on if Aedra and Daedra is to be believed because it in and of itself is a physical book in-universe like Monomyth. Just because it's a religious text doesn't make it innately correct.

[mossy moss]

i have always operated under the idea that Change sometimes looks like Creation, to the point that the two are indistinguishable to the mortal eye.

[slate shoal]

the main things are done by the hero but the smaller things might not be iirc

partially bc I don't think Nerevar is becoming the archmaster of Redoran AND the leader of the Telvanni

I personally think dawnguard has to be done by the DK same way the DB dlc is

[uncut hatch]

When I played in classic oblivion, I heard some words about Martyn Septim, maybe these were rare lines.
When I went to the mages guild to sit and chill after complete the last main quest line, I heard a line from some NPC about Martin
He spoke that he could be alive. The lines were quite complex, there was something with probability and time continuum.
But it was definitely there!
Is this a hint? 🙂

[golden oasis]

martin = 2nd tiber septim ?

[uncut hatch]

I don't know, ha.
I only know that there were some hints about Martin, after the end of the storyline. The names were weak. And they were in the magicians' guild from some magician, he said complex words. We heard these hints a long time ago, when we played in classic oblivion. I'll have to go to the magicians' guild in the remastered, sit there, maybe these phrases will be heard again
But, judging by them, he may not have died in the usual sense.

In general, Martin's disappearance is also a mystery and it is impossible to say whether he disappeared or died completely, it is not a fact

[golden oasis]

if he really still "alive" and ascended to godhood replacing Talos (because Talos had been "banned")...he will condemn Hero Of Kvatch for abandoning the empire by becoming Daedric Prince then....hmmm..possible lore for ES6 i think.

[uncut hatch]

If I'm not mistaken, I heard those phrases about Martin in the Cheydinhal Mages Guild

[uncut hatch]

It's not a fact that this is straight lore. We'll see, it's not worth counting on, maybe this topic with Martin will be covered in the future, maybe not

I'll try to find these phrases, but I'll tell you right away that I won't spend much time in the game to hear them. If I'm lucky, I'll pass them on later.
But don't count on me, I won't put in any special effort (I'm not going to stay up all night for them!). Sometimes I'll just sit in the mages' guild, and if I'm lucky, I'll hear them again.

but there were definitely unusual phrases about martin, some mage who came to the guild of mages of Cheydinhal talked to other NPCs and said these phrases about him

Not about the fact that he is the incarnation of Tiber Septim
But about the fact that in the usual sense he may not have died

[uncut hatch]

HOORAY! I found these phrases!

dialogue from the Mages Guild of Cheydinhal, between Traivond Redguard and Ditsan:

Traivond: "Most view Martin’s transformation through the lens of religion or politics, but I’m far more intrigued by the metaphysical essence of the phenomenon."

Ditsan: "Indeed! My numerological apparatus has detected fluctuations in probability threads that persist to this very day!"

[rugged wing]

What swears to Nords have besides cursing their Gods?

making a quest for a hamlet that is one giant Trailer Park Boys reference, and to get it right I ought to add lots of Lore Friendly curses

[slate shoal]

milk drinker is one they use

racial ones like "frail elf, puny elf, grayskin, kitty, lizard breath" etc

snowback for people they view as cowards (Nords value honor yet abandon it so easily)

[slate shoal]

?

let's not bring up topics like that

oh

the Bretons have Draigh

the Nords might say Shor's Bones (they're a very religious people)

[rugged wing]

Hmm Shors Bones will work at times, i don't recall any curses against Mara tho

[slate shoal]

why would someone curse mara? bad marriage?

for the love of Mara maybe(saying it in vain)

Maras like one of the only gods most mortals don't have beef with iirc

[rugged wing]

More these dudes are vulgar, farmers who love making skooma and getting drunk

[slate shoal]

who, Nords? drunk yes but skooma not particularly

[rugged wing]

Well the quest will be about these three Nords who love to get drunk, and do skooma or moonsugar, i remember nords with skooma but don't think i ever saw ones with moonsugar

[slate shoal]

oh! I didn't know the context mb

You could have them do skooma but moon sugar is mostly just really sweet to non Khajiit iirc

[rugged wing]

So thats why i want to know a large variety of lore friendly curses that nords might use because swearing will be definitely something they use as part of their grammar

[slate shoal]

"by ysmir what nasty stuff is this?"

[rugged wing]

Nice

[rugged wing]

By Ysmir mum! You mean to tell me you ran out on dad for a damn Caveman!

[slate shoal]

"for the love of Mara, you left father for that milk drinker of a man?"

though that might be more of an imperial phrase

[rugged wing]

Yeah. And these are basically hicks

[raw grail]

No, it has more mild effects than skooma but is still narcotic, potentially dangerously so

Non-Khajiit are told to be wary of Khajiit cuisine because of how much moon sugar they use

[slate shoal]

ty for correcting me I couldn't remember fully

[raw grail]

^-^ glad I was of use!

[distant forge]

where do soul gems come from?

are they artificially made? or are they a mined gem stone?

[mint osprey]

Dude, it is discord, not ebay

[mint osprey]

As far as i remember there are mines with them somewhere

But black soul gems are kind of made artificially

[distant forge]

yeah ik black soul gems are special, i mean regular normal soul gems

[distant forge]

what mines?

[mint osprey]

Blackreach for example

Well, this ore contains everything, not just soulgems

But im sure i've seen caves with lots of soulgems in eso

Btw do you guys remember you were arguing about white and black souls definition? This is an explanation i have found when i was looking for info about soulgems

There are two known categories of souls: white and black. White souls are had by lesser creatures of Nirn and Oblivion. These can be held by natural soul gems. Souls of men, mer and beastfolk are considered black.[1] According to Arkay's Law their souls are protected by the Arkay himself,[3] but black soul gems can be used to bypass this protection and trap souls of sentient beings.[1]

[slate shoal]

the soul system was made by Vanus Galerion to counter the spread of necromancy in Tamriel iirc

it is flawed, as sentient races like Minotaur, Goblinfolk and Falmer (Betrayed) aren't considered black souls

[rugged wing]

would it be not lore friendly to have a character describe someone as looking like a caveman?

[uncut hatch]

I have some assumptions about the Dwemer
The situation with them is a superposition under the influence of the dragon breakthrough
If you climb into the structure of the universe and use powerful technologies (like Tiber Septim used numidium), a dragon breakthrough occurs. A dragon breakthrough is when different parallel probabilities are combined into one real one and occur simultaneously.

In fact, there is no clear answer whether they disappeared or not due to the superposition of this phenomenon. But their final disappearance is far from what fits the breakthrough scenario. Moreover, in the history of Tamriel, only 3 breakthroughs were documented, in fact, it is not a fact that there were three.

Kagrenac's manipulation of Lorkhan's heart most likely led to the dragon breakthrough.
This means that the Dwemer, at the very least, did not disappear completely in the usual sense.

[raw grail]

A variety of places! White soul gems are most often mined. Black soul gems have been created artificially (by Sotha Sil, who didn't share the secret), found in cold harbour, found underground in Nirn, and created by corrupting a white soul gem via the Necromancer's Moon

[raw grail]

The biggest issue is that the explanation given there doesn't hold up to scrutiny

Goblins, minotaurs, giants, rieklings, falmer, and other such intelligent mortal creatures don't have black souls despite showing all of the signs of intelligence and civilization one would expect to accompany black souls. Guild Memo on Soul Trapping in ESO gives an interesting angle on this, suggesting that black souls were a sociopolitical invention that was subtly enforced through standardizing a spell which wouldn't capture the souls of those considered "human", making it more difficult for necromancers to manipulate and capture "human" souls down the line. Since this was an arbitrary invention, it was subject to the biases and prejudices of the inventor and their culture, which did not, at the time, consider the creatures I listed above as intelligent mortals, instead considering them beasts or, worse, monsters

So what are we to do about it? I have been giving the matter some hard thought, in between rooting out cells of the ever-burgeoning Worm Cult, and I think at this point the only way to gain control over soul-trapping is to co-opt the practice. Therefore I propose the Mages Guild codify and systematize the various soul-trapping magics into a common grimoire of a few reliable spells, and then teach our members that these, and only these, are the legal and authorized methods for trapping souls.

Furthermore, I propose that for the purposes of soul-trapping we categorize all souls into two classes: the legal, or "White" souls, those smaller essences that are captured from beasts and animals, and illegal, or "Black" souls, which are derived from sentient mortals. And we will teach only those spells that can capture White souls, forbidding our students to use the larger soul gems on sentients.

It will take several generations, and the suppression of the Worm Cult, for this dichotomy to become the pan-Tamrielic standard for soul-trapping. But if the Mages Guild can't take the long view for the good of Tamriel, who can?

Ultimately it was based on Vanus Galerion's presupposition of what an "intelligent mortal" was, rather than any hard, objective law on these mortals being inherently intelligent while these ones are inherently unintelligent

[distant forge]

i was just curious about the regular none black soul gems, i knew you had to do a ritual for black soul gems

where you do mine soul gems at? what gemstone are they?

[raw grail]

I think pretty much just Blackreach so far? Although I doubt that's actually the only location considering Blackreach is (to our knowledge so far) mostly under Skyrim, although we only see part of it in TESV itself

Also, you do not HAVE to do a ritual for black soul gems, and in fact that was a fairly late way to get soul gems

It's just also now the most convenient

According to Liminal Bridges, tho, soul gems are natural. That was my main point. Another source says Molag Bal created them but the two things may not be mutually exclusive?

[distant forge]

i hope in tes 6 we get like soul gem mines or something

[raw grail]

That'd be cool

[distant forge]

and it's like minecraft where you need to get higher tier pickaxes if you wanna mine and have a chance to get grand soul gems

like you need ebony to mine a grand soul gem deposit, and a drop chance of that is rare

[pastel sorrel]

Breaks, not breakthroughs

And it's not necessarily specific technology, but methodology; the Time Dragon ain't that stable at the best of times, "linear" time is a mortal simplification of a complex spaghetti mess. He can be messed with.

[pastel sorrel]

At least four actually. The Middle Dawn plus the 3+ times the Numidium's been activated.

Though Red Moment isn't publicly understood to be a dragon break, it's recognized that stuff's kinda weird about that period of time.

Dragon breaks in general are esoterica to the public

[uncut hatch]

Where do you think Lorkhan's heart went after the events of the red year?

[pastel sorrel]

Possibly returned to the core of Nirn or wherever else it was initially situated

It's been gone since TES3's end, well before Red Year

[uncut hatch]

What's funny is that Lorkhan's heart was the stone of the Red Tower (Red Mountain)
Moreover, most of the towers are deactivated, it is known for sure that the adamantite tower still exists and is not deactivated
In the sixth part, we are expecting events on the verge of the destruction of the mortal world?
In fact, the last tower remains (most likely, the status of the rest for the most part says that they are destroyed or unknown)

If the last tower is deactivated the mortal plan will be destroyed

[pastel sorrel]

No, most of the Towers are not deactivated

you're running off of like 90% fanon, not what's supported in the lore

The only ones confirmed down are Orichalc (but that's ancient history), Crystal, Brass* (with a very heavy asterix on the end of that), and technically the Doomcrag since it was a failed Tower but also again ancient history

White-Gold's power is still intact (quite likely the divine petrified statue of Akatosh acts as the Stone, given it was made from the old one to begin with), we don't know the status of Red Tower, Green-Sap's also unknown, Snow is having a Civil War but it's not the first time, and Adamantine remains as it is

[uncut hatch]

This does not eliminate the possibility that the problem of deactivating the towers will be obvious by the sixth part.

[pastel sorrel]

If that's where they end up going with it, yes

[uncut hatch]

The Thalmor have changed course from building towers to destroying the remaining ones, keep that in mind too.

[pastel sorrel]

They have not

There's no indication they're working on that specifically, not even in the MK text you're thinking of.

They're trying to take down Talos specifically, and his people.

It's possible they're going after the Adamantine Tower directly (they were curiously trying to cut through Hammerfell originally in the Great War) to try and do something there, sure. Pull some Marukhati shenanigans but for their own purposes or something. But there's no indication as of yet that they're working to take down any Towers.

[uncut hatch]

There would be something to demolish

[pastel sorrel]

Possibly trying to bust through the lock down at the core, mentioned in Once

[uncut hatch]

If in fact most of the towers are deactivated, although yes, then it is unclear why their course is not aimed at destroying the adamantine tower

[pastel sorrel]

Because that would be demolishing the building with themselves in it?

[uncut hatch]

Will the sixth part give the opportunity to destroy the Thalmor?

[pastel sorrel]

I have no way of knowing

Probably not though

fighting, sure, if it's in Hammerfell then we know the Thalmor are active out there

[uncut hatch]

The Thalmor are scum who have already managed to irritate everyone who played Skyrim, if they don't let them get even in the sixth part, it won't be cool

[pastel sorrel]

They're trying to erase Talos so that Convention can be weakened, which might allow them to free Auriel; if they just blow the place up, everyone dies from either that or the inevitable Daedric invasion

They're not stupid.

[uncut hatch]

But they are disgusting

[pastel sorrel]

The narrative arc makes sense that probably TES7 would be more open warfare with the Dominion

TES6 would be setting the stage where 5 had planted the seeds

Finally, TESA: Redguard 2 (if it's Hammerfell)

[restive barn]

actually no, 4 is active, 2 we're unsure of and last one debatable

[pastel sorrel]

Already gone over that

[restive barn]

was trying to catch up, all good

[uncut hatch]

The extermination of the Thalmor is one of the most attractive ideas for future implementation.

[pastel sorrel]

It's not just an idea, the literal arc is setting up the next Great War

[uncut hatch]

On the other hand, if a part comes out where there will be such massive battles, it’s scary to imagine how powerful hardware you’ll need to have to play

[pastel sorrel]

TES5 established them as the general Big Bad that's going on and that both sides are gearing up for the next fight, but neither wants to be the one to pull the trigger just yet

If TES6 is Hammerfell, it'll likely involve moving towards fighting Dominion incursions, tipping the scales so the Empire or Dominion makes the decision to attack the other officially

Which would then transition smoothly to TES7 having open warfare

[restive barn]

this whole thing could have been avoided tho

[uncut hatch]

By the time the sixth one comes out, most people will be old, and the seventh one is in the next millennium (3000+)

[uncut hatch]

I want to see high rock in the sixth part besides Hammerfell

[pastel sorrel]

I can see High Rock as a DLC, but I'd rather they focus on one province for basegame

don't half-ass two things, full-ass one thing

[uncut hatch]

in which dlc?

[pastel sorrel]

... I don't know why you're asking me that

[uncut hatch]

=/

[pastel sorrel]

I'm not a dev, I just know a lot of what's available to know about the lore

And general story sense

[uncut hatch]

If you mean to see high rock as a dlc in the sixth part, then I agree, I wouldn't mind seeing it even as a dlc

[pastel sorrel]

yes

it's all assuming it's in Hammerfell, so High Rock would be sensible if they wanted to do a whole province

perhaps do it across two DLC's

otherwise I could see Balfiera being a DLC

[uncut hatch]

I agree, then it will be very cool
I just dream about what will happen to Balfiera

[pastel sorrel]

Dominion raiders that've breached naval blockades perhaps

however they wanted to spin whatever story

[uncut hatch]

The main thing is to see the Adamantite Tower, it is one of the most desired objects for me that I want to see

[pastel sorrel]

You can go there in ESO

One of the tutorials starts there

[restive barn]

i mean you make a very good case which does ethically make sense given the circumstances, however how do we know its the empire or stormcloaks who would make this happen because if we say one or the other in VI ended up finding out who they choose then the whole point of pick your side was all for nothing if your gonna clearly pick a side for us, but if you give users the option in the intro who won the civil war and is in control now then it can continue to adapt seamless from where Skyrim left off and would be the only logical thing to do

[uncut hatch]

I only play TES

[pastel sorrel]

You've only got access to part of it and the island around, but it's still the first time since 2

[pastel sorrel]

Most sensibly they're gonna write it so it doesn't matter who wins per se; in 5, if the Stormcloaks win, there's still a full Legion trying to get through Pale Pass that might cause issues. If the Empire wins, they're gonna be dealing with insurgents and again Pale Pass is an issue for supply lines

[uncut hatch]

ESO is a completely different game

[pastel sorrel]

As such, both Ulfric and Tullius could end up dying, Elisif might step up to peacefully secede Skyrim from the Empire but maintain good relations

ESO is a TES game too, I'm not interested in misguided vitriol.

[uncut hatch]

It won't be canon if the Dovahkiin chooses the Stormcloaks

But TES better

[restive barn]

look we know ESO is the black sheep of the franchise but the content and storylines are needed

[pastel sorrel]

Speak for yourself, ESO's quite easily the biggest shot in the ass the lore's had since TES3

It's not a "black sheep". People just hate on it because other people told them to.

It ties in a lot more of the lore together, and while it can be hit-and-miss at times, that's literally nothing new for the series; it's also got some damn good bangers.

[uncut hatch]

I'm not saying that ESO is a bad game. It's just a matter of taste and many will agree with me

[pastel sorrel]

Of course it's a matter of taste. But that's not how you were presenting it.

Anyways, moving on.

[uncut hatch]

I heard that there are inconsistencies in the lore in TESO

[pastel sorrel]

Some, yes, multiplied by the sheer size of the game.

Every single TES game to date has had inconsistencies with the previous games.

TES2 majorly overhauled the lore of TES1, Redguard and TES3 did so again and again, and then 4 and 5 kinda took things in yet another direction

ESO was another direction yet, and I'll certainly say that launch-era ESO was a capital-M Mess

And that wasn't necessarily ZOS's fault or any one specific group's fault, it's old history at this point anyway

but ZOS and BGS work together much more closely since; One Tamriel onwards is the proper start to ESO.

But so many people haven't played since then and just assume it's still a mess.

It's got its issues, but it's got a lot of things going for it regardless of taste.

[uncut hatch]

mmorpg is not my genre at all so I don't want to argue about it

[pastel sorrel]

There's nothing to argue. That it's about taste has already been established.

[uncut hatch]

But in order not to offend anyone, I will say that it is visually very beautiful there.

[pastel sorrel]

Civil War players on both sides aren't invalidated - again it's established there ingame that there's gonna be problems no matter who wins - and it allows Bethesda to establish whatever new status quo they want

[restive barn]

If ESO would've had launched better i don't think it would as big of an issue

[pastel sorrel]

Since it's pretty clear the Third Empire's on the way out

Wulf - alleged avatar of Talos - basically says as much in TES3, and that it's probably for the best.

So Skyrim going independent was gonna happen eventually

[restive barn]

i can see where you're coming from

[pastel sorrel]

the Empire already lost the entire rest of Tamriel by the time of TES5, with only High Rock as their other province

And probably they'll be the last to go

[uncut hatch]

Morrowind, as I understand it, is self-governing?

[pastel sorrel]

Yes. The Empire's withdrawn and the Great Houses pretty thoroughly scoured the place of Imperial influence (see what happened to Hlaalu)

Sadras took their spot. Council's back in control of the whole place.

[uncut hatch]

Black Marsh didn't seem to be particularly dependent on the empire, Cyrodiil and High Rock remain, which is really not enough

[pastel sorrel]

Black Marsh is Black Marsh, they seceded on their own

They're content to stick to themselves, vengeance upon the Dunmer notwithstanding (which might've been some Hist operating on their own for all we know, they're not all unified by any means).

[uncut hatch]

It would be better if the Empire ruled Tamriel than the Thalmor

[pastel sorrel]

Well, it was. Alas, it too has fallen apart.

The Empire's not dead yet, but I'd imagine fighting the Dominion's gonna cost it heavily, probably spelling its death knell with the counties splitting up or whatnot (the Gold Coast and Colovian Estates are de jure broken from Cyrodiil during ESO's time)

[uncut hatch]

If something at the level of Numidium comes into play, then not really

[pastel sorrel]

That's a very big if, but yes.

But that speaks for itself.

[uncut hatch]

By the way, where did the numidium go?

[pastel sorrel]

Blew up, or otherwise disappeared

[uncut hatch]

Is this officially confirmed?

[pastel sorrel]

well yeah, that's the Warp in The West and whatnot

TES2's endings happened together (to put it mildly), and it disappeared

Hasn't shown up since, hopefully won't ever. There's still the matter of the parallel-timeline duplicate of it still sieging Alinor up into the Fifth Era, if they wanted to officially incorporate that, but it would be everyone's problem

[uncut hatch]

Could the situation with the Dwemer also be a consequence of the dragon breakthrough?

[pastel sorrel]

The Numidium's activation caused Red Moment and the disappearance of the Dwemer. Whether directly or by proxy, by what exact means, is officially unknown, though unofficially it's pretty well indicated that it effectively is the Dwemer, bound to it as their god and means of escape

[uncut hatch]

There are still many interesting things
Will the Falmer population be increased (due to the remaining minimum of one Falmer)
What will happen to the Eye of Magnus
and so on

I tried to decipher the inscriptions on the Eye of Magnus, but it is not clear at all what is written there.

[restive barn]

Back to what I mentioned earlier this whole problem could've been avoided tho i know that's not very marketable and would take away from several storylines and across a game or two.

If the Empire wasn't such idiots and gave in to the Thalmor, Ulfric wouldn't have felt betrayed and the need to throw this war into place and both sides could've done the only thing and work together no matter their causes and reasons, if they focused on getting rid of the Thalmor instead of fighting each other more would've gotten done. But the Thalmor choose to whisper in both sides ears and trying to keep them fighting making them forget who the real enemy was. So This Timeline would be stopped.

Thalmor stir crap, get both sides to fight this out. Ban Talos, knowing that the 9 need praise to gain their powers thus causing them lose it and Talos pretty much losses his status and then is weak enough for them to get rid of him in general and fade out and killing all other races off all so they can become Gods again.

[pastel sorrel]

There's as yet no known translation (if one exists, it could just be mystical-looking gibberish), but they're definitely inscriptions and characters of note

[pastel sorrel]

The Empire had less than half combat readiness by the end of the War and would've been faced with the prospect of invading:

• Elf Vietnam where the land itself wants to kill you too
• Cat Iraq
• Summerset, which has never been successfully assaulted by anything less than the Numidium, which the Empire presumably does not have.

Hammerfell's success is not a point in favour of continuing the fight either, because half the place was razed by the end, they essentially didn't do much better than Cyrodiil did

Titus II cut his losses; men can recover a lot faster than most mer.

As we're directly told in TES5, the Empire doesn't even really enforce the Concordat unless the Thalmor are looking; rightly, it's brought up that Ulfric's to blame for the increased Thalmor presence in Skyrim, as beforehand people were getting away with a lot more and weren't being dragged off in the night.

And as we find out, the Thalmor were explicitly influencing the Civil War behind the scenes to make sure both sides ground one another down to dust, rather than one winning outright and stabilizing

[uncut hatch]

I did an analysis of Maiq the Liar's phrases and made predictions mechanics, 5 points, send them?
These are possible mechanics from the predictions on his phrases

[pastel sorrel]

Ulfric's just a pawn. If we talk to him in Sovngarde, he's realized that all he was really accomplishing with the war was sending more souls up for Alduin to feast on.

Season Unending indeed.

[pastel sorrel]

Sure

[uncut hatch]

I suppose that in the sixth part there may be:

1. Improved system of pursuits where the guards will not recognize you with a penalty immediately if you find yourself in another city
2. Destructible environment (dynamic world)
3. More developed system of companions and interaction with them (division of trophies)
4. Magic in weapons (built-in magic in weapons, not just enchantments but casting spells, for example, from swords)

5. Soul Bargaining Mechanics (stealing souls into soul gems by making deals with soul cairn rulers to gain benefits)

I only analyzed those phrases that are not references to previous parts

[pastel sorrel]

I could see those going in, though not necessarily because of M'aiq. We're coming up on 14 years since TES5, and they've been known to radically change their plans during development

[restive barn]

I can see you're point and i respect it there is a few things i may have over looked but in general that's kinda the vibe that i got from trying to piece the whole thing together based off a few playthroughs trying to play both sides of the war to try to get perspective and try to piece it together

[pastel sorrel]

Especially since they've had F4, F76, and Starfield in between to learn from

[uncut hatch]

"Once M'aiq got into trouble in Riften, and fled to Windhelm. It is good that nobody there cared." ---> 1)

[pastel sorrel]

that's just talking about TES5's mechanics

Each hold has its own bounty, they don't cross jurisdictions. M'aiq generally references the game he appears in.

[uncut hatch]

Sorry

[restive barn]

I never really understood why the walking Easter Egg is in all the games 🤔

[pastel sorrel]

To be an easter egg

[uncut hatch]

"Why do soldiers bother with target practice? One learns best by hitting real people." --> This may hint at training in battles, that is, there were rumors that in tes 6 the pumping will be simplified and all that

[pastel sorrel]

That's referring to how you train skills

You don't do it by fighting props, even though of course lore-wise that would be their purpose. You fight actual NPC's to increase your skills

[uncut hatch]

May be

And regarding companions, having analyzed his phrase from Skyrim about how it is better to travel alone and having remembered the phrase from Oblivion, a pattern emerges

[pastel sorrel]

It's all 4th-wall breaks about the game he specifically appears in. He's never referenced future titles before, he exists singularly in each game

Yes, that companions line is another one; there's been companions in previous games, but they were very underdeveloped as a system

[uncut hatch]

He predicted Skyrim back in Morrowind

and in oblivion predicted shooting from a crossbow in dawnguard
This character can predict both the near future and the distant future

[pastel sorrel]

He did not.

He says or implies nothing about Skyrim the game or province

What he's referencing is stuff from the community at the time, and the gameplay features they didn't end up implementing into TES3

[uncut hatch]

He said that dragons are invisible. It wasn't a direct reference but it was related to it. In the following parts it was emphasized. In Oblivion he directly said that the player might see dragons soon.

He never spoke about the provinces.

[pastel sorrel]

Because dragons were a thing in the lore already, and were originally presented as being somewhat commonplace, but were ultimately cut and their role in the lore significantly downsized

[uncut hatch]

But very often he predicted the mechanics well

[pastel sorrel]

He didn't "predict" anything, this was written long before they established the lore of the later games which would eventually touch upon those same things

[uncut hatch]

And his clothes may also be a hint
In Morrowind he wore a Colovian fur helmet
In Oblivion he had dark clothing that is somewhat reminiscent of Skyrim

[pastel sorrel]

A broken clock is still right once or twice a day

[uncut hatch]

It's hard to judge by his clothes from Skyrim, because there he's wearing a nun's outfit from the Temple of Kynareth, I think.

[pastel sorrel]

He's there to poke fun at the game he's in. Development is always in flux, they've stated themselves how the the games have had some wacky dev cycles sometimes

They might have some initial ideas, but you gotta remember, they didn't make TES3 with the expectation of a TES4

Bethesda was not in a good state at the time. Battlespire and Redguard didn't sell well, they were on the verge of closing down. TES3 was a Hail Mary.

[restive barn]

i mean when you see him in all the parts of Tamriel it does seem like where we are he does seem to be pretty fast to be speed running all over 😂

[pastel sorrel]

TES3's success saved them, and gave them the opportunity to develop TES4 - its success then catapulting to TES5, etc.

[uncut hatch]

You understand that this is a test of coolness, whoever predicts the mechanics and setting is cool

[pastel sorrel]

They're not necessarily all the same M'aiq "canonically"; M'aiq, son of M'aiq, grandson of M'aiq, etc.

[uncut hatch]

prophetic skills test in analysis of part six

[pastel sorrel]

Of course, he might be lying when he says that.

[uncut hatch]

But he never lied.

[pastel sorrel]

But that's the bit. He's there to make meta references to the gameplay mechanics and lore of whatever game he (or that specific M'aiq) appears in

[uncut hatch]

There is no lie as such in his words, which is ironic

[uncut hatch]

And to the next ones one way or another

[pastel sorrel]

Not necessarily. Again, these are things that were already established before M'aiq ever appeared

[uncut hatch]

Perhaps his references are aimed into the void until the new part comes out. But that doesn't mean they aren't prophetic

[pastel sorrel]

A broken clock being right at least once a day doesn't mean it's a prophet.

He's not saying this stuff because they're definitely gonna get to it, he's saying it because they're known topics of discussion in the community at the time of the respective game

Over the two literal decades the series has been going since TES3, yes, naturally, some of that stuff has eventually been touched upon. Some stuff still has not.

[restive barn]

would it ok if i send a fr

[pastel sorrel]

Specifically, he's Mike Lipari's character, a senior programmer at Bethesda. He's been there since TES3. M'aiq Lipari, if you will.

[pastel sorrel]

sure

[glacial scarab]

In TES3 they knew they what hey were doing for TES4 but the hints didn't come from M'iaq they came from certain NPCs in Tribunal and Bloodmoon.

M'iaq in TES4 is just in a tattered robe that was grey which really has nothing to do with Skyrim.

[uncut hatch]

I agree, in general I don’t claim that clothes are what are the references, but you never know

[pastel sorrel]

His robed TES4 appearance has kinda become his General Look, which each game since changing the colors and patterns but not his general presentation of That Damn Robed Khajiit

(Castles does have him in a different outfit but who's gonna stop him)

[raw grail]

Cyrodiil supposedly had river dragons

[sharp lantern]

Also regular ones.

[uncut hatch]

Regarding the teaser, the teaser definitely doesn't show Hammerfell

Yes, the teaser is not a trailer and the details are hidden, it is shown on purpose to keep players guessing, but it does not look like Hammerfell at all, no matter how you look at it

If the developers say that this is Hammerfell, then I will just clap, it is not it.

The coasts of Hammerfell that have access to the sea are usually much more deserted, without such obvious rockiness and glimpses of vegetation.
If this were a region of Hammerfell that is closer to Skyrim, the teaser would show a much larger area.
The teaser shows the coastal area, and on the right is access to water (sea, ocean), and it is limitless.

There is an absolutely boundless sea and I did not see any outlines of possible islands/bay. If Bethesda had intended to show Illiac Bay, then at least something would have been visible, especially High Rock, at least minimally on the horizon

This is not Illiac Bay or Hammerfell at all
More like High Rock

[raw grail]

The coasts of hammerfell are the second most green place in the province...

(southern hammerfell has a jungle)

[proven moss]

Can't say I really agree with any of this.

The coasts of Hammerfell that have access to the sea are usually much more deserted
According to your experience... where? Have you seen every mile of Hammerfell's coastline?
without such obvious rockiness and glimpses of vegetation
Deserts are very rocky and not without vegetation. Neither of these is a disqualifier for a desert. It still surprises me that people imagine High Rock to be this arid. How many trees do you count?
There is an absolutely boundless sea and I did not see any outlines of possible islands/bay
Our shot of the sea is narrow, we could easily be looking out of the mouth of the Illiac Bay and miss seeing High Rock entirely at this angle. It's irrelevant anyway though. I live on the Great Lakes and I can't see the opposite shore. Illiac Bay is clearly meant to be as big if not bigger. This is something you might expect to see in game because of their small scale. Not something you'd see in an artistic rendering of the world.

[raw grail]

Dude looking across Lake Superior is wild

But yeah, explicitly the coasts are much more green and populated than the rest of the province

The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion. As such, Redguard civilization is divided into the cosmopolitan coastal cities on one hand, and the numerous nomadic tribes that wander the desert itself on the other.
- PGE1

[proven moss]

they've been called freshwater inland seas, which I think is a better descriptor than "lake" for most people's experiences of lakes

the Great Lakes even experience tsunamis and freak giant waves

I'm getting off topic though

[raw grail]

The waves are freaky indeed 😭

[pastel sorrel]

PGE1's also over two decades old and several aspects of it have since been retconned.

The trailer's explicitly said to have clues in it, and the most likely spot for it given the geography is southeastern Hammerfell with the mountain border with Cyrodiil in the background.

As for population, reminder that the southern half of Hammerfell was essentially razed during the Great War.

[pastel sorrel]

Speak for yourself.

[pastel sorrel]

Literally Hews' Bane is right there

Even the Alik'r, vast desert it be, has vegetation near the coastline where it's more generally habitable, and in little drainage nooks even on the non-coast side of things.

[pastel sorrel]

We've been to all of High Rock, not even Rivenspire is that much of a badlands, mainly it's just Decrepit™.

The trailer's plainly Hammerfell unless they're radically altering how another province looks for some reason.

even just the Gold Coast of Cyrodiil is getting into similar biomes as the trailer.

It's also noted that ESO hasn't touched Hammerfell in ages. Most of the province is still unfilled. Almost like they're waiting on something.

Also can't forget, Stros M'kai

So yeah, I'm gonna need a big fat [citation needed] on the coastal regions of Hammerfell not being rocky or harbouring vegetation.

Because every single one we've got access to is both to some degree or another, as basically any other coastline would be.

[uncut hatch]

if the camera moved along the Iliac Bay High Rock would be visible at least minimally. So in the trailer at least not the area of Hammerfell showing Iliac Bay

It is necessary to take into account that in the teaser there is a completely open ocean in which nothing is visible on the horizon. Illiac Bay is not small, but it is not so huge that you cannot see another province even by a millimeter.
I checked frame by frame and I'm sure there's an open ocean there, in the teaser in the first seconds look to the right and you'll see gaps between the rocks in which there's still the same boundless ocean

It doesn't look like Hammerfell because its obvious face is not visible, the teaser leaves out details and if it is Hammerfell, it is shown with almost no individuality
Or are you trying to tell me that if there are glimpses of grass and rockiness in Hammerfell and in the teaser, then that's a reason to assume that it's Hammerfell?

There is vegetation and rockiness in Hammerfell. But it is so empty to show Hammerfell without its obvious signs (obvious), it is just a joke towards the fans

[pastel sorrel]

why on earth do you keep going on about the Iliac Bay

I already said the trailer's along the southeastern coast, not north

[uncut hatch]

Hammerfell has personality, where is it in the teaser? Where are the features, where is at least one palm tree

[pastel sorrel]

Again, southern Hammerfell was razed in the Great War.

notwithstanding it's a teaser showing mainly that TES6 exists at all, Todd said outright there's clues in the trailer. As for the trees, you're literally looking at them among the greenery.

It's a very macro shot, there's not much specific detail.

But it's shrubland much like the Gold Coast, which I also already mentioned.

[uncut hatch]

bethesda loves unexpected twists, was all this mystery in the teaser just done for nothing

Will most of the players who think that Hammerfell will be the setting be right? It won't be a surprise.

[pastel sorrel]

So?

[uncut hatch]

What about unexpected turns?

[pastel sorrel]

Since when has it been a surprise? Back when it was first announced in 2018?

[uncut hatch]

I'm talking about doing something unexpected, to surprise the fans, the setting should clearly not be Hammerfell, that would be too expected

[pastel sorrel]

Whataboutism is a terrible argument. You're assuming they care about it being a surprise.

[uncut hatch]

I suppose so, there must be enthusiasm!

[pastel sorrel]

Hammerfell's the most sensible place to go narratively. Why would they care about some arbitrary twist? ESO already handles most of Tamriel, Hammerfell's the one that's notably untouched for the most part

they're obviously setting up to fill that in

[uncut hatch]

Because everything covered was in the second era

[pastel sorrel]

There'll be enthusiasm when the game's actually gonna come out. Oblivion Remastered proved that they don't even need marketing to succeed.

[uncut hatch]

Hammerfell partly and high rock were already shown in daggerfall, there will be a repeat

[pastel sorrel]

TES2 is nearly 30 years old. They've changed some things around since its time.

[uncut hatch]

Well, yes, with a bunch of news about the release and "hidden leaks"

[pastel sorrel]

If we're gonna go by what they depicted, then TES1 already had all of Tamriel, so why bother depicting anything else but what it had?

Solitude sure looks a lot different between TES1 and TES5

likewise Balfiera, etc. got a makeover between 2 and ESO.

You're putting way too much stock into your own personal idea of mystery that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[uncut hatch]

I feel streams of energy from the mundus that tell me that this is not Hammerfell!

[pastel sorrel]

I'm not interested in feels that run contrary to the available evidence. There isn't anything more to discuss.

[uncut hatch]

there are no sufficient grounds

3 equidistant spires, a hollow, ruins, a city in the distance, a statue opposite the city in the distance (which is barely visible), seagulls flying to the ocean

These points were never sufficiently substantiated

You may be right, but your conclusions are still quite superficial.

It's not that I don't want to believe you, you see, I don't see enough grounds for your words to be the absolute truth. They still fall into the category of assumptions, few patterns have been identified.
This is just a guess about the bush and the south, which suffered after the war with the Thalmor. But the whole area could have suffered, the time between parts is unknown, many things could have happened.

In southern Hammerfell you can see a place where there might be an exit to the ocean on the right. There is an extension to that place
What is located as far back as possible, that is, either some mountains or another province, reaches and does not exceed the border of the third spire

Presumably this is the border with Cyrodiil but it does not protrude beyond the spires as it should be on the map

• the extension is not visible which should be visible anyway

The camera doesn't reach the three spires. It would be possible not to see the extension if the camera were close to these spires, but it is far from them, so the extension should definitely be visible

[raw grail]

Sure, but you also went on to provide corroborating sources (images), and PGE1 acts as the foundation for the geography of a lot of the series, including the most recent entry in the game

It's two decades old but it's still relevant, especially this aspect of it

[pastel sorrel]

I provided corroborating images from a current source for them, ESO.

Skyrim was also retconned from literal ingame presentations

(it used to be just all snowy hell with pockets of habitation all the way up to TES4, TES5 onwards it's mainly the north bit that's snowy hell)

The PGE1's foundation has - as I said - been retconned multiple times already. It's not an invalid source, it's just an outdated one.

How the series looked 25-30 years ago has quite a few differences from how it looks now.

Obligatory mention of jungle!Cyrodiil too.

[raw grail]

Not according to PGE1!

Most of Skyrim's geography as seen in TESV is in PGE1

Even major stand out biomes like the Aalto

The idea that Skyrim is a snowy hell prior to TESV is a massive overgeneralization

The land of Skyrim is the most rugged on the continent, containing four of the five highest peaks in Tamriel (see Places of Note: Throat of the World). Only in the west do the mountains abate to the canyons and mesas of the Reach, by far the most cosmopolitan of the Holds of Skyrim, Nords of the pure blood holding only the barest majority according to the recent Imperial Census. The rest of Skyrim is a vertical world: the high ridges of the northwest-to-southeast slanting mountain ranges, cleft by deep, narrow valleys where most of the population resides. Along the sides of the river valleys, sturdy Nord farmers raise a wide variety of crops; wheat flourishes in the relatively temperate river bottoms, while only the snowberry bushes can survive in the high orchards near the treeline. The original Nord settlements were generally established on rocky crags overlooking a river valley; many of these villages still survive in the more isolated Holds, especially along the Morrowind frontier. In most of Skyrim, however, this defensive posture was deemed unnecessary by the mid-first era, and most cities and towns today lie on the valley floors, in some cases still overlooked by the picturesque ruins of the earlier settlement.

I'm unable to find the Aalto's mention so ig I misremembered that

I could've sworn it mentioned them, albeit not by that name

Ofc I do understand that parts of it have been retconned - including some geographical stuff, with jungled cyrodiil being a major example - but I think it's been probably the biggest touchstone in regards to the geography and tone of essentially every province besides Cyrodiil

Even eso makes heavy use of it, as you demonstrated with the corroborating images

More corroboration is always appreciated, but discouraging PGE1 before agreeing with it feels very odd. Pointing out PGE1 has retcons is welcome when it affects the convo, but why point out it has retcons in response to information which hasn't been retconned, only reinforced?

Especially when it's a useful and relevant source still. It gives us historical context on many of things like the ice wraith hunt in Skyrim

The northern and western [sic] Holds -- Winterhold, Eastmarch, the Rift, and the Pale, known collectively as the Old Holds -- remain more isolated, by geography and choice, and the Nords there still hold true to the old ways. Outsiders are a rarity, usually a once-yearly visit from an itinerant peddler. The young men go out for weeks into the high peaks in the dead of winter, hunting the ice wraiths that give them claim to full status as citizens (a laudable practice that could serve as a model for the more "civilized" regions of the Empire).

[glacial scarab]

And can even be explained with winter. Do wish they got seasons working but I guess the issues was lod at least.

[glacial scarab]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
Appears to be this TES4 book

In north-central Skyrim, there is an area called The Aalto, which is of unique geographical interest. It is a dormant volcanic valley surrounded on all sides by glaciers, so the earth is hot from the volcano, but the constant water drizzle and air is frigid. A grape called Jazbay grows there comfortably, and everywhere else in Tamriel it withers and dies. The strange vineyard is a [sic] privately owned, and the wine produced from it is thus rare and extremely expensive. It is said that the Emperor needs the permission of the Imperial Council to have a glass of it once a year.

[fading flame]

The thing I don't understand is, how come things like Labyrinthian. Which was cleared by the eternal champion was like... Huh, now there is going to be an undead dragon there, AND a dragon priest... Then about how ever many years between Arena and skyrim, that dragon priest gets ahold of the staff of magnus. I mean daedric artifacts, sure because they have owners that go from one place to another.
Does the morality of the user of a divine artifact not matter?
How did the shield end up in the forgotten veil, unless the Falmer just found it and traded it until it just ended up there?

[fading flame]

Also, in lore... Technically you need the blood of a divine and daedra in Oblivion. Could the crusader armor work? And the Brush of Mara?

[heavy tundra]

tbh the reasons that those couple items end up where they did in Skyrim never made any lore sense

well, actually not sure they presented reasons at all

Why Auriel's Shield ended up in the middle of a hidden icy hole in the ground with things that haven't ventured outside for a few thousand years is anyone's guess.

[mint osprey]

Powerful items can randomly teleport across the world if they decided to change the owner

[heavy tundra]

(ok few thousand may be an overstatement but still)

[heavy tundra]

Some items at least. Staff of Magnus certainly. Bit of an odd owner to end up with them in both cases.

Presumably some items are exceptions, Gray Cowl of Nocturnal comes to mind.

But yeah, that made the whole ordeal with the Skeleton Key in Skyrim just seem stupid.

Suddenly it has a home and suddenly Nocturnal can't control an artifact she previously controlled just fine.

The Gray Cowl may have been stolen from her, depending on whether the stories are true or not, but whoever got it also got their identity yeeted, so can't say she wasn't on the winning end of that exchange.

[fading flame]

The book that tells you about all the artifacts just says “they end up somewhere.” I think I’d have to get the direct quote. Skyrim kinda killing me. But it’s the only game into the fourth era.

So, somehow the HoK loses all the artifacts and they end up in Skyrim. In morrowind neraverine loses the artifacts they end up in cyrodill same with the eternal champion and the agent. But the agent does exist and doesn’t so I guess that makes sense?

[night trellis]

Artifacts eventually dissolve into Oblivion on their own where the Daedric Prince can send it wherever such as into a cult location for worship where it can then be misplaced through chance.

[gaunt bear]

My first question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction I’d like to ask the lore-heads is this:

Because of the opening of the Breach, the Return of the Dovah||/Alduin||, and the Anchor interacting with an Elder Scroll acting as a catalyst, a number of artifacts are beginning to become more powerful, both Aedric and Daedric.

So, what new powers would Auriel’s Shield and/or Bow, the Staff of Magnus, the Masque of Clavicus Vile, and the Skull of Corruption (and maybe Mehrune’s Razor, for bonus points) gain?

Good night on my end.

[pastel sorrel]

We have no way of answering that because we've never used those artifacts outside of their normal mortal depictions and you're introducing an entire 'nother fictional element and setting overall to this that you're responsible for studying and extrapolating.

[gaunt bear]

Ok.

[night trellis]

Ironic that the lore in the books is more spicy than what we see in-game

[fading flame]

Seriously lol, Though I really want to know which books are actual metaphors and which ones are real.

[proven moss]

I don't know if its ironic... books are only limited in their imagination while the games are restricted by available tech and various development constraints.

Easy to imagine and write about a walking forest city. Harder to make that into a game environment you can visit and interact with

[night trellis]

I disagree, most books are not far-fetched in imagination. In 2025 game technology is not that limited either. I think it has more to do with game design of TES not having cutscenes apart from prologues and also Bethesda streamlining their games to avoid mature depictions. Take for example this book in skyrim "purloined shadows" the book depicts a circle of witches disrobing themselves in naked worship of Nocturnal who also disrobes herself, the technicality of such a cutscene is not complex by a long shot. So what we end up is with lore books where writers are given free reign, while in-game story is watered down to fit majority audiences, although that is also subjective considering games like BG3 did not shy away from mature depictions and was a commercial and critical success 🤷

Sauce: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Purloined_Shadows

[proven moss]

I'm not saying most books are far-fetched. I'm saying books are easy, game design is hard.
In Immortal Blood the Volikar live in frozen lakes, underneath the ice, and can reach up through the ice, without breaking it, to grab victims and pull them beneath. In game they're human npcs with glowy eyes.
Sure you could portray this stuff in cutscenes. But cutscenes aren't games. You could make big TES films showing this stuff. Still easier and cheaper to write a little book about it. That's all I'm saying.
It would be ironic if the games were more spicy than the books.

[night trellis]

Not exactly, a lot of people expect cutscenes and gameplay to be more engaging than in-game books, so it is surprising when lore books are where the real drama and spice reside. I think it's more expected than ironic from gamers... Secondly, cutscenes are a valid part of video games, many if not most games have them (even TES with its scripted events), and it's kind of demeaning to say that, but of course it is subjective at the end of the day. 🙂

[slate shoal]

falmer mentioned I am summoned

[slate shoal]

the shield probably chose to reappear there in that form intentionally

[slate shoal]

Auriels shield found its way to the people who highly venerated him at a coincidental time where a plot written against him was foretold in the scrolls?

[slate shoal]

it's up to you how they lost them

ultimately it doesn't matter

[fading flame]

If it was up to me... I'd eat them. Like there is no way you did not want to take a bite out of Azura's star.

[slate shoal]

I didnt

[slate shoal]

I should rate the eatability of artifacts

[fading flame]

I'd love to see that, there is no way sheogorath wouldn't allow you to eat the wabajack. He would never even think of that!

Do you think you would burp the effects of the wabbajack or maybe the dragonborn could shout the effects of the wabbajack?

[slate shoal]

you would burp up a soul gem

or your own entrails who knows it's the wabbjack

back onto lore topics

[fading flame]

isn't there suppose to be the fork. I forget what that thing does all the time.

[fading flame]

Wait also, now that I think about it the skeleton key can be used to unlock ANY door. be it phyiscal or metaphyical and whatnot. What would happen if you used it to go where the aedra are? Like maybe their planets or something?

[night trellis]

You'd need a space program for that. Maybe a wizard with a levitation staff could give a go at it.

On a side note it would be cool if levitation magic made a comeback.

[glacial scarab]

Can be a major problem for certain groups. Like most things with Cyrodiil.

[heavy tundra]

Well, it'd at least be anywhere Nocturnal can influence.

If some planes are considered outside her reach in some form or another, it may not work there.

It would presumably somewhat depend on whether it's more drawing on Nocturnal's power and influence, vs. having some of her power stored within.

[heavy tundra]

Fork of Horripilation is an artifact, but with no power other than making the user suck at casting spells when it's in their hand.

in Morrowind, reduces max magicka, in Shivering Isles it stops magicka regeneration

While technically Daedric, it's only really sought out by the mad.

[fading flame]

Well, if someone couldn't control their magic. Maybe it could suck the magic away from that person? That's the only reason I could think about it.

[heavy tundra]

I mean it's just a curse, nothing special.

Gray Cowl of Nocturnal has a curse and benefits, Fork just has a curse with none, because Sheogorath likes it that way. Or maybe he doesn't like it that way.

[fading flame]

Nothing special? I mean, i don't know how to curse an object. When I think of someone deciding to curse an object I just imagine them swearing at it.

[heavy tundra]

by Elder Scrolls magic item standards it's not special

cursed items exist in multiple games

While not technically a curse, Sunder and Keening will outright kill Nerevar if used without Wraithguard.

Necromancer's Amulet seriously reduces physical health when worn.

Bands of the Chosen give severe fire weakness

[fading flame]

I'm assuming since the fork is daedric, it has a larger. capacity to actually hold more into it, though you have to be pretty powerful to make something powerful. I guess like umbra.

[heavy tundra]

Blackwood Ring of Silence is literally made to kill the wearer.

[gaunt bear]

I believe “Forky” is more about creative problem solving.

[heavy tundra]

of course meant to be used intentionally but still

[fading flame]

hehehe... Kinda funny that ring. I like it.

[heavy tundra]

it has a nice use at high level in the Isles

good for quickly triggering Sheogorath's Protection

anyways

[fading flame]

But even then, I think magic is more like something that won't stop refilling into you. Let's say you just wont stop pulling power from the eye of magnus, you could shoot it at the mountain and make it explode... OR here me out... Let the fork keep absorbing it. Idk where the power to the fork goes exactly... But it goes somewhere?

[heavy tundra]

cursed magic items aren't exactly rare

[heavy tundra]

Stunted Magicka be like:

certified Atronach birthsign moment

[fading flame]

Don't get me started with the dread zombies.

I hate them so much and their disease.

[heavy tundra]

Some individuals just never regen magicka on their own

Presumably, the Fork isn't stealing their magicka, and just limiting it like any other destruction magic.

[fading flame]

Plus if you were like a smart enough you could make something that keeps on taking magic in... Like the eye of magnus. Just fill up a rock with magic until it just starts levitating on its own.

[heavy tundra]

as they go back to normal the moment it's not being used

magic floating rocks

[heavy tundra]

good canon explanation for Bethesda physics glitches, thx

bored wizards enchanting antigravity rocks

and paintbrushes

[fading flame]

I love that! haha! I am stealing that!

[heavy tundra]

Paintbrush of Magnus

[fading flame]

I am still upset that you cannot use the crusader relics, or the brush of mara when you need to find aedra artifacts

And I think during the time of Oblivion Auriel's bow was stolen by that snow elf.

[heavy tundra]

of the artifacts, Hair Shirt of Saint Aralor would be tasty

can lick, or melt and drink, Hrormir's Icestaff

[slate shoal]

the bow will eventually leave people as Aedric artifacts don't tend to stick with the wielder (it belongs to the Aedra, they simply lend it to us for a time)

[fading flame]

Also that snow elf hiding it in a chaimber for a while... I forgot that guys name... also does he just sit on a throne all day?

[slate shoal]

Arch Curate Vyrthur, he's just ||waiting for his prophecy to come true so he may have his revenge against Auri-El, likely a reference to Castlevania||

[fading flame]

Yeah, that's kinda funny. Although it's annoying how that dude just says "here is a prophecy I wrote about vampires probably before my time." And a dread lord did rise, be it Serana or Harkhon and can block out the sun.

[slate shoal]

he made the prophecy out of grief and anger, seeking revenge no matter how long it would take

[fading flame]

Yeah, but does that mean anyone can just make a prophecy? I don't even think there was a book about him before all this he just appeared in the skyrim lore ofc.

I mean the snow prince probably but we don't know who that person was. as well. But he's the only important snow elf we actually know of other than his brother.

[slate shoal]

the snow elves were considered extinct, victims of the slaughter of the Companions and the ultimate betrayal of the Dwemer, they weren't known to the outside world for untold centuries

Milennia even, he's already a powerful mage as well, considering what spells he has access to and his role in the Falmer religion before it collapsed

[slate shoal]

we know little about the Falmer culture, most of it was erased by almost fascist behavior, erasing history and implanting theirs instead as the truth

[fading flame]

The power to create an elder scroll is huge step. Plus wouldn't he of known of the eye of magnus? The only person we know to I guess be a sort of scribe to the elder scroll other than the HoK according to Martin.

[slate shoal]

they knew about Saarthal but again we have like no knowledge about what happened, only that something spurred the Falmer to attack and it may have been the orb called the eye of Magnus

I don't think we actually know how he made the scroll or prophecy tbh

[fading flame]

Also the dwarves probably knew, you find that out in the college of winter hold line. That mage was able to figure it out. I think the dwarves did too.

[slate shoal]

you're meant to focus on the tragedy of his people and himself, not the actions he took I think

[slate shoal]

we can't assume what the dwemer intended or knew, only observe what they did as they're described to be a Bartleby people by MK

We know they enslaved their former neighbors, but not why

we may theorize but that's the limit of it

[fading flame]

They had that mechanization, remember the quest? They were able to see what HUGE spikes of power. The Oculory.

I think we're the ones figuring out how that thing works, the dwarves built it I hope they knew how it worked... Other than the numidium. Of course.

[slate shoal]

the dwemer knew how the orrery worked yeah

they knew what they intended numidium for, I think Yagrum (living dwarf, guest and friend of Divayth Fyr) actually mentions it iirc

[fading flame]

I still want to know which dwarf Falion met.

[slate shoal]

it's possible he met Yagrum or some other kind of plane wandering Dwemer

[fading flame]

If I was Yagrum, i'd be mad if my airship crashed.

[rigid latch]

What are the stones

[pastel sorrel]

in what context

[rigid latch]

Like why are they there and who made them

And how do I get special powers from them

[pastel sorrel]

You mean the Stones of the Towers?

[rigid latch]

And do others use them

[rigid latch]

What?

[pastel sorrel]

Again, what context
what stones

[rigid latch]

Like the guardian stones

[pastel sorrel]

Doomstones, like in Cyrodiil.

[rigid latch]

Ralof seems to know what they are

[pastel sorrel]

Magically attuned in various ways, though usually only special individuals get much use out of them.

[rigid latch]

So does he use them

[pastel sorrel]

Unknown

For most people, doomstones are inert.

[rigid latch]

What is a doom stone

Also where is cyrodil

[pastel sorrel]

The central province of Tamriel. TES4 introduced the doomstones with it, among other sorts

ESO also has them scattered about the whole continent

[rigid latch]

I’m playing Skyrim

[pastel sorrel]

Cyrodiil's just down south, it's home to the Imperials.

[rigid latch]

What are the guardian stones though

[pastel sorrel]

Magical standing stones attuned to the constellations (themselves gods in some capacity, though usually busy out in the sky and beyond)

There's various standing stones, doomstones being one sort; it's doom (and whence "deem") in its classical sense of "fate"

You as a so-called Doom-Driven Hero thus have a certain sway over your fate, even realigning it with other constellations.

[rigid latch]

Also how is parthunaxx been able to stay on the mountain without having supplies also how big is his beard I just finished the Jurgen Windcaller quest

Took me 4 hours

[pastel sorrel]

I'd best not spoil all that because you'll be meeting him soon enough. He does have a beard in his own right funnily enough.

Suffice to say, he doesn't necessarily need food.

[rigid latch]

I had to walk from high hrothgar to morthal then to riverwood

It doesn’t help that I was encumbered

[pastel sorrel]

Ah, survival mode?

Or just couldn't due to the overencumbrance

[rigid latch]

Yea

Dragon bones and scales are heavy

[pastel sorrel]

yeeeep

[rigid latch]

Also who are the goblin people and who is the blue god

[pastel sorrel]

rieklings, local goblin-ken

[rigid latch]

What’s a riekling

I’m talking about the goblins near riften

[pastel sorrel]

The Falmer?
Are they blue or pale

[rigid latch]

What’s a Falmer

[rigid latch]

Green

[pastel sorrel]

oh deadass is there a CC adding goblins I've forgotten about

yep, there is, my bad

[rigid latch]

what’s a cc

[proven moss]

Yeah they mean Muluk, the blue god of the goblins

[pastel sorrel]

Creation Club. Basically small DLC's (official and unofficial) made by community members like modders but through Bethesda's pipeline. Survival Mode and those goblins are added by a couple CC's officially included with the game nowadays, they weren't originally in the game.

As for the Blue God, that's Malacath, though there's an orc masquerading as him.

Malacath's the patron of goblin-ken and the spurned.

[rigid latch]

Was an orc*

There is no longer a orc

I used my greatsword and got rid of the orc

And got a pet that can summon things

Was vilkas meant to kill me during training

[pastel sorrel]

Nope.

[fading flame]

Creation club kills me ngl. I hate how it can be considered cannon. I just hope in ES6 they retcon that.

[pastel sorrel]

The CC's made a couple of questionable lore choices but the same can be said for literally every TES game.

It doesn't really do anything the main devs themselves haven't done, and there's no specific reason to think it'll be retconned out.

[proven moss]

Yeah, there are both good and bad lore design decisions in the official titles themselves - I'm not really concerned with who creates it as long as it's a positive contribution.

That being said, I've never bought the CC stuff so its almost like it doesn't exist to me. I almost never remember it as part of Skyrim's "story" and "lore"

It's an odd feeling, content being released so long after I had considered it over/complete

[rigid latch]

I’m half way up the 7000 stairs

I’m looking for Lydia

I used my shout to send her off and I think she is dead

[proven moss]

Lydia does have a habit of wandering off

Lazy

[pastel sorrel]

And blocking doors.

[rigid latch]

How can is make my fus ro dah more powerful

[pastel sorrel]

You'll have the option to strengthen it after speaking with Paarthurnax. Also during the Dragonborn DLC you'll find another boost to add to it, though that's much later down the track.

[rigid latch]

Btw why did vilkas kill me during training

[pastel sorrel]

I have no way of knowing that. Might've been a bug.

[rigid latch]

I hit him and everyone attacked them

[restive barn]

if your doing the whelp intro mission you need to make sure that no one is around you besides him i've had this issue too if anyone gets touched it'll break the "quest"

[rigid latch]

Is it because I shouted at him

[pastel sorrel]

possibly

he wants you to fight him in melee

[restive barn]

you can only use weapons

[rigid latch]

Oh

[restive barn]

If you listen to the dialogue or look in your quests it’ll tell you 😂

[rigid latch]

Does chrysamere have any lore

[drowsy gale]

has it ever been expanded upon what happens if an oblivion gate is broken physically? like if the hero of kvatch just took a pickaxe to the gate instead of going in and getting the stone

[pastel sorrel]

Not very much, but some. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chrysamere

[pastel sorrel]

Not really as I recall, though The Cause establishes they can be rebuilt even as a Frankenstein's Monster afterwards; it's hard to start mining away at a gate when there's hordes of daedra pouring out of it.

[rigid latch]

What are the dremora people and how do I get out of hell

I lost the entrance

Me and farkas have been stuck in the deadlands for atleast 30 minutes

[pastel sorrel]

I don't know the layout of the place, but Dremora are among the myriad inhabitants of Oblivion known as daedra.

One of the more ubiquitous daedra, often serving as warriors in the legions of Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal, among others and other roles.

[rigid latch]

I found my way out of hell

I’m back in Skyrim

[pastel sorrel]

Specifically, The Cause is dealing with stuff that was the main plot of TES4, the Oblivion Crisis

Gates to the Deadlands being opened up, daedra pouring through

IIRC a couple of the Dremora are from earlier games (also appearing in ESO, though serving under Bal at that time).

[rigid latch]

How do I get a different color rahgot

[pastel sorrel]

That is the color Rahgot has. There's other masks made of other materials.

[rigid latch]

Oh I thought there was only one and people were just recoloring it somehow

[fading flame]

Do you think theres like billions of people living on tamriel?

[pastel sorrel]

Probably not. Several hundred million for sure, but the place ain't that massive.

[raw grail]

And it takes a lot to reach the density necessary for even one billion people on our own planet

[rigid latch]

Who owns the soul cairin

[proven moss]

The Ideal Masters

[upper field]

I love they're called that when they're anything but Ideal.

[proven moss]

I'm definitely sure it's a self-imposed title. They seem to despise flesh and associate it with mortality, finding their immortal crystalline forms much more ideal

Seek the twin Fingers of Life in the Chapel of Love. Stand upon the pedestal and bathe yourself in the manabeams. The corruption of the flesh shall fall away, and the spirit shall be revealed in its glory. Then may you stand before us and serve for eternity in peace and joy.

[upper field]

Ah. Makes sense.

[balmy salmon]

In the game's files, each vanilla Skyrim Dragon Priest mask's editor ID is named for its material rather than its priest. For example, Rahgot is called "ArmorDragonPriestMaskOrichalumHelmet"

[rigid latch]

i on ps5

[gaunt bear]

Something from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Matthias: I’ve just uncovered something that’s as sad as it is confusing: all the Dovah that have been encountered are males, and part of the reason why they’re attacking the joorre is because they’ve lost their females (as in, they’ve lost them and they cannot find them). I’ve been trying to find out more about them (such as what they call themselves since Dov is for the males of the same species, but what do you say?), but what I’ve been able to find so far is that it’s somehow tied to Alduin.

[robust lintel]

Are there any visitable Daedric Prince realms that are completely underwater?

[fading flame]

Visitable? No? To my knowledge... I mean maybe somewhere in the game in battlespire? There could be water in a prince's realm.

[night trellis]

Yes, Sanguine has personally arranged a pleasure pocket fitting your description

[upper field]

idk why you'd want to even visit such a location. You'd either need to constantly cast Waterbreathing (or have an enchantment of sort), be an Argonian, or somehow have an infinite number of Waterbreathing potions. Also you'd have to contend with whatever Daedra are lurking in said waters...

The Ashpit is already bad enough. Don't insert a classic underwater level with maneating creatures and rings of fire that defy the laws of physics.

[night trellis]

Hey maybe its a place where wine flows instead of water...

[upper field]

Even Sanguine's realm isn't the greatest when he decides to pit you against a Daedrath in your birthday suit.

[night trellis]

Only if you're sober

[glacial scarab]

If he doesn't go full Hellrasier that is

[tall sierra]

Your story your way….But I’ll just point out the obvious concerning Skyrim Dragons. They are referred to genderly as “He” but in fact you will see they are in fact sexless. They do not get born or come from eggs. They were created fully grown by Akatosh at the dawn of time. There is therefore no need for pro-creation or females (or males). They are as they are. Their immortality is temporal, they do age, but will not die from it. They can be physically slain, but their souls are immortal and Alduin can shout them back into their dead bodies enabling resurrection…thus truly immortal, with one obvious caveat. If the soul is absorbed/devoured by another Dovah…or as we know Dovakiin, there is nothing to ressurect and that dragon is decisively ended.

[gaunt bear]

Thank you for clarifying.

[balmy salmon]

I've seen theories, based on out-of-game lore, that the Jills are the feminine counterparts to dragons.

[pastel sorrel]

Funnily enough not just out-of-game, there's a French version of one of the ingame books I'm forgetting the name of that slipped in mentioning Jills

earlier draft of the book ostensibly

[heavy tundra]

Tbh I think the feminine counterpart to the dragons are just dragons. They are, while frequently referred to as male, not inherently masculine in any way.

idk why they'd really need a counterpart anyways

[pastel sorrel]

In the context of Jills being a thing, the males have been referred to as Drakes.

They're all dragons, of course.

The idea seems to be the Drakes are the "eaters" while the Joshes Jills are the "menders"

[heavy tundra]

lel

[pastel sorrel]

not necessarily male and female in the context of procreation, but perhaps better understood in the same way we might call certain plugs and sockets "male" and "female"

the original spitball for them was "biological time machines" after all. They perform functions.

chips off the old block and all

[heavy tundra]

I think trying to assign human-like gender roles to them is a bit more arbitrary than anything, given they really are much their own thing, typically with much grander purposes than procreation.

[pastel sorrel]

It is arbitrary, for the most part

the universe is inherently dualistic in its metaphysics, but so too is it trinary; the two brothers made their wife and thus birthed the Aurbis

[heavy tundra]

term is typically ternary rather than trinary, but yes

[pastel sorrel]

there's elements of the Tetragrammaton's constituents that the YHWH name refers to in its inspirations, cycles of rebirthing and the recurring motifs everyone's falling into

Yeah that too

There's ideas of "male" and "female" and "IS" and "IS NOT" and so on that can be fairly arbitrarily assigned since it's talking about the workings of the "first" urges and spirits of the Aurbis's "early" days

the original spirit(s) splitting and recombining and so goes on the workings of the world

And the idea is that some of these concepts predate their mortal usages of them

i.e. N'gasta suggesting Clavicus Vile's name - given his primordial nature - is the root of the mortal words it suggests.

Often when other spirits are appearing as conventional "men" or "women", it's just because they're familiar forms to us and how we tend to do things, which even then varies just like they do things

It's why Mephala's sphere of "sex and death" can be misunderstood and oversimplified; she's talking about the cosmic forces of creation and destruction, and walking both paths at once in your own right.

Which can be viewed from that mortal lens of sex and death, but that doesn't quite mean the same thing to these immortal changing beings. There's a reason she's one of the ones trying to teach the Psijic Endeavour, she's got certain perspective, which if she's doing her job right we'll never quite know too much about.

[pastel sorrel]

Interestingly, there was a (unconfirmed but I've seen screenshots claimed to be from it) preview for TES5 that claimed Alduin was leading a group of black dragons referred to as Jills

Would've been an interesting idea. Rizzduin with a whole army of his own.

More cutting room floor content I'm guessing, unless they're just not expanding upon that yet for some reason.

[mint osprey]

If you know lore well, explain this part for me please. I feel like its opposite - its overcomplication. For me Mephala seems to be an evil spider woman who make people kill each other for fun. When did she destruct or create something?

[pastel sorrel]

She - along with the others of the Good Daedra / AMATHRA - has most notably contributed to the Chimer/Dunmer, guiding their principals of killing and seduction, explicit and secretive dynamics of the same aspects (assassination as opposed to massacre for instance) and how to utilize them

For a good example, look at some of her chief representatives in Dunmer culture: the Morag Tong

the Foresters Guild. They're there to assassinate key individuals as appropriate to prevent all-out House Wars breaking out which could fracture Morrowind and all they've tried to build

Weeding out the garden for its health

The Khajiit used to revere AMATHRA more too prior to the Riddle'Thar Epiphany, where they played similar roles in guiding the Khajiit on their paths through life.

Conversely, see also the Dark Brotherhood, whose "Night Mother" has in multiple ways been implied to be Mephala playing both sides as she sees fit, as befits her nature.

The Brotherhood (generally is thought to've) originally split from the Tong after all.

Though given the natures of those generally involved in this stuff, who really knows for sure

But explicitly, Mephala's dualistic aspects are a part of her characterization and worship, as for instance the act of giving life - as impactful a thing it can be for mortals - has significant consequences when you're talking about the gods and myths and whatnot that make up the foundations of the world

and likewise, death is not the same thing to the gods - see Lorkhan who's objectively as dead as gods usually go, and bro is still up to stuff - or even just the common daedra and other immortal ada not so bound to Nirn as the 8+etc. (though even they are immortal through the world itself, meant for mortality it may be)

[mint osprey]

Thank you

[mint osprey]

But wait, Morang Tong are mercenaries, they kill ones they are paid to kill, not ones who Mephala asks to kill

[pastel sorrel]

They're picky in the writs they choose. So are the Brotherhood, but they're less so; the Tong fulfil a legal role within Dunmeri society, held to very strict codes of conduct

they do not just accept random bounties or whatnot, they work carefully to ensure the continuation of Dunmeri society even when it's fighting itself* according to their specific worship of Mephala and her ideals

(* which is of course all the time, but that's the Arena babyyyyy)

Like, even under ALMSIVI, the Tong were specifically granted an exception to continue their veneration of Mephala as Mephala, as long as they didn't make a stink about trying to distinguish Vivec from her in contrast to Tribunal theology (Vivec is Mephala orthodoxically, her being his "Anticipation", thus then the "Reclamations" of the New Temple post-Red Year)

They kill the weeds to maintain the garden. Thus, "foresters".

Mephala and Hermaeus Mora are said to be siblings (whatever that might mean in-context) in some views, which might also tie into the "forester" side

(Mora = Forest, and Hermie's been called the Woodland Man among other things, as a reference to the metaphorical "forbidden grove" of knowledge)

[mint osprey]

What do you mean Vivec is Mephala?

[rigid latch]

What is a vampire lord

[glacial scarab]

Pure blooded Vampires are those who get it more closely from Molag Bal or the people the Lord turns.

[pastel sorrel]

In the orthodoxy under ALMSIVI rule, they are presented as the "true" forms of the Good Daedra, the latter being called the Anticipations as they were "anticipating" the arrival of their successors

Theologically, Almalexia takes Boethiah's place, Vivec takes Mephala's place, and Sotha Sil takes Azura's place, with the idea that they were "always" them in the first place, now appearing as forms more suited to protecting and guiding Morrowind more directly

[heady wave]

Thank you for this. I must've missed it being spelled out somewhere because I couldn't understand wtf "The Anticipation of X" meant theologically.

I know that's probably cringe to admit (reading is hard).

[heavy tundra]

the practical result of falling for Serana

[uncut hatch]

Worth it

[heavy tundra]

real

[rigid latch]

Why is the form so ugly

[heavy tundra]

Molag Bal.

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got something that’s sure to crinkle the brows of the lore-heads here:

Matthias (my Dragonborn): While Mehrunes Dagon is, publicly, opposing the Inquisition, privately, he’s aiding us against Corypheus. When I asked him why, this is the only thing he’d say about it: “He calls himself the ‘conductor of silence’ (which is what corypheus means); I call him a ‘filthy little thief’.” And I know better than to pry into his business.

[night trellis]

Thanks. He's a pretty bad bigot then if he's accepting recruits of any race to his little merry band.

[pastel sorrel]

Not really. Not all bigotry's explicit.

Quite a lot of it's in the implicit behaviours, internalized and justified as needed.

[woeful gyro]

Is this for a mod?

[night trellis]

Implicit would imply it's unconscious and it would affect decisions or actions regardless. So yes, you are a poor bigot if you accept anyone into your ranks after shortly questioning them.

[pastel sorrel]

That's literally the same caliber as "they're not bigoted, they have friends who are [insert group]!" as if being utterly two-faced isn't a common aspect of this; implicit just means it's unspoken, not that the person's unaware of what they're doing.

Passive aggression and general line-toeing are typically far more common than outright statements, especially as our society's come to push back against that kind of behaviour more and more. There's more consequences now.

In-world in the context of the Stormcloaks, they're actively fighting a war and Ulfric was very nearly executed; whatever Galmar tries to justify to himself, he's also loyal to Ulfric; whatever issues Ulfric has (myriad), he also can't necessarily afford to turn away good help right now.

And just the same, whatever "outsider" help does come in isn't necessarily going to receive the same long-term treatment as Nords even if they have the same welcome, differences compounding over time to slowly "other" them ever further.

Especially consider the hypothetical end of their warring. Where do those outward ideals turn? Inwards. All that fire and nationalism's gonna go somewhere. Your elven next door neighbour could be a Thalmor spy, yaknow. Those Argonians on the docks could be smugglers.

All the same stuff bigots were always claiming, except now they have the resources to actually act on those claims instead of focusing on the war.

You're not a poor bigot just because you don't immediately seem like one. That just as well describes some of the slimiest ones of them all, who simply learn to mask better.

[night trellis]

A lot of conjectures and presumptions to cope with the fact race is irrelevant when joining the faction. 🤷‍♂️ This would be like passing an interview, getting the job and claiming they were bigoted against you and conspiring to fire you on day 1, illogical.

[pastel sorrel]

Oh please if you're going to resort to calling that a "cope" then you're already engaging in bad faith. I'm not continuing this.

[night trellis]

There is not much to continue on anyway, it's all conjecture based interpretation on your part.

[balmy salmon]

Does Galmar treat those of non-Nord races differently through the Stormcloak campaign?

[raw grail]

I'd highly recommend looking through their dialogue and counting the number of times they generalize "the Elves" when they're actually referring to the Thalmor, Dominion, Dunmer, or Altmer

They use the term somewhat indiscriminately, and always negatively

"damn Elves"

Once you do, it stops being so surprising that some Stormcloaks think Dunmer are generally supporting the Empire or Dominion

Their leaders don't have the respect or care to differentiate

[balmy salmon]

Do they ever accuse the Dunmer of being Dominion agents? I don't recall that.

They're sometimes accused of being Imperial spies but I don't remember any instance of them being accused of working for the Dominion

[raw grail]

You really think the dark elves [sic] are Imperial spies?
"Wouldn't surprise me. They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom. Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate."

[balmy salmon]

True, I forgot about Rolf's line

[balmy salmon]

Heck, they arguably treat local Altmer better than local Dunmer.

[glacial scarab]

Which honestly feels like an oversight with how Skyrims worldbuilding is.

Windhelm being the centre of the Stormcloak rebellion which'll have tensions from the Great War and the Thalmors actions since the Markarth incident and the Nord populace isn't doing anything to the Altmer of Windhelm? They (Nords) own actions got the Argonians kicked out of the city to the Docks and the Altmer are fine?

[balmy salmon]

Nurelion is old enough that he's probably been selling potions in Windhelm since well before the Great War, and Niranye admitted to facing prejudices at first.

Looking at NPC dialogue, some of the Nords still distrust her, although that's because she's into shady business.

[glacial scarab]

Don't forget the Stables which is ignored.

[balmy salmon]

They live outside the gates like the Argonians and Khajiit so the Stormcloaks probably don't care as much

[glacial scarab]

They do come into the city. The Altmer of Windhelm are weird in general with the writing of the city.

[uncut hatch]

The Nightmother is supposed to be a spirit right?

So hypothetically, can we just lock her away with a really powerful soul gem? maybe Azura's star?

[night trellis]

Generalization is a theme in elder scrolls. You really gonna pretend orc strongholds dont refer to you anything else but outsider? Morrowind dunmer calling outsiders the Nwah word is a meme in itself. Imperials are also ignorant of nords and generalize them, guard quotes and tullius being a prime example. Distrust is common in TES which is why npcs like Niranye or Belyn Hlaalu claim to prefer to win the locals trust through hardwork.

[raw grail]

Yeah, it's common af both irl and in TES

And when generalizing a group of people based on their race...

It's crazy I can say bigot but not the "r word" (not even the slur)

Tullius is absolutely also bigoted tho. I call out Imperial bigotry all the time, trust me, you're preaching to the choir. Hell, it's basically implied in the very name of their culture - Imperial. Imperialistic governance goes hand in hand with generalizing, dehumanizing, and deculturing those under you. Notably, Ulfric isn't against Imperialism or the Empire, he's against the Empire going against his people because in his view they used to be strong and support Skyrim while now they're weak leeches who bowed the knee

[gaunt bear]

I’ve created some unique lore for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction and I’d like some comments on it from the lore-heads here:

Due to Thedas getting “hooked together” with Mundus, even the gods are capable of “coming back to (new) life”, but, without his heart, Lorkhan’s rebirth was more than a little complicated. Because of how the elves and men view him, his identity/soul ended up splitting, quite literally, in two. The “good half” became a “new” Shor, but the evil half became an entirely new god dedicated to opposing both his brothers in every way possible.

This ended up upsetting Auriel/Akatosh in several different ways: “They split (my brother) right down the middle! Now I have two half-brothers!”

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tuss-jokes-gotcha-burn-ouch-gif-5645546

[slate shoal]

I saw a theory suggesting that the Falmer were not of the Aldmer blood, but instead came from Altmora, leaving when Auri-El could not protect them there

[gaunt bear]

“Altmora?”

[slate shoal]

Altmora is the elven name for Atmora, for when elves properly ruled it before men did

[gaunt bear]

Just making sure.

[slate shoal]

basically imagine elves live in place > men ruin it > men claim it's theirs and get angry about elves > repeat

[night trellis]

Where did humans originate from if not from Atmora and Yokuda? Your theory implies that elves ruled there? Maybe then the cycle would be more like elves enslave humanity, humans lash out and kill. Elves flee, attempt to do so again.

[proven moss]

Men originated on all continents in a matter of speaking because one supercontinent existed before the war between the Ehlnofey sunk most of it beneath the sea

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/annotated-anuad

[slate shoal]

Ehlnofey -> war, they split up and go places -> the races take shape

[raw grail]

This is outright stated and agreed upon by both elves and Nords - Altmora was an elven kingdom which humans (breathed into life at the throat of the world) which men overtook, likely during the War of Manifest Metaphors

[slate shoal]

wether they were made there or this being propaganda to claim Skyrim as their home to give credence to their genocide is up for debate

[raw grail]

whether they're actually from the Throat of the World is less relevant than the fact that both agree they are not from A(l)tmora

[slate shoal]

true

[unkempt tide]

Hi folks, a reminder that we do not allow any profanity on the server. Thanks!

[raw grail]

Tbf I'm not sure if a term referring to a super relevant theme of the game which is a core part of the main conflict on all sides and is in no way a curse word is "profanity" despite being banned

[unkempt tide]

To clarify, my comment was not aimed at your discussion but at another post that was removed

[raw grail]

Oh okay. My b

[slate shoal]

Mod - I don't even know what you deleted
Lore - Elves sure do love there white stones, the Falmer and Dwemer with their granite, marble and limestones, the Ayleids, and even the Sinistral with their alabaster

it is perhaps due to the more ornate nature of those stones?

one could also see the stone as a reference to the elves themselves, a longer lasting yet harder to replace (in case of damage) material/people, like men use wood, which ages faster but is more replaceable (men having more children than mer, more often)

I do wish Bethesda would expand more out of games, I would love more lore opportunities to explore things like ancient Merric cultures

[woeful gyro]

The throat of the world is the birthplace of mankind?

[raw grail]

The birthplace of Nords, according to Nordic myth, so take it as you will. Not necessarily all mankind, but perhaps, depending on how you interpret it

I don't believe in the 'out of Atmora' theory and find it more likely mankind (and most of Mundus' creatures) were dispersed more or less across Nirn pre-ocean, and then got separated by the oceans

[woeful gyro]

Which god is responsible for creating them

[raw grail]

Kyne didn't create them, but breathed them onto Nirn according to myth

[woeful gyro]

So she just dispersed them basically

Were humans ever monkeys in tes or did they just start out looking like modern humans

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

[woeful gyro]

Huh so they had the concept of shouts all the way back since morrowind

[glacial scarab]

PGE1/Redguard I think?

When they talk of Skyrim in it I think is the earliest.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim
Looking for the "The Tongues" section.

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got another head-scratcher from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls I’d like to share:

Matthias: Alongside the Giant’s Flame, the Thalmor are searching for something that’s not making any sense. Apparently it’s something that Uriel Septim brought home from Akavir as a spoil of war, but when I looked it up in the Fade (by dreaming), I got… well…

Imperial Champion: …but, that’s just a stupid boulder!

Uriel Septim: It’s not just a boulder! It’s… it’s a rock! A rock!

Matthias: I don’t know why the Thalmor are so interested in this “rock”, but the Inquisition might need to get to it first. So, Lady Josephine and Sister Leliana would like to know more about Uriel Septim (as in, which one invaded Akavir) and his campaigns in Akavir.

[gaunt bear]

I’m serious about this, but I’m asking the lore-heads the question: which emperor of Tamriel invaded Akavir and briefly occupied it?

[proven moss]

Uriel V iirc

[heady wave]

^^^^, unless there was another invasion I'm unaware about.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brief_History_of_the_Empire,_Part_III
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Brief_History_of_the_Empire,_Part_III

[gaunt bear]

Thank you.

[balmy salmon]

From what I've seen the Stormcloaks don't really have the same racial tensions with ordinary Altmer. The tensions with the Dunmer in Windhelm is largely a hold-specific problem and one that most likely predates the problems with the Dominion by a significant amount.

[glacial scarab]

Yeah It's a Windhelm thing where it's Nords on non-Nords. Which is why the Argonains are segregated to the docks away from the Nords and why the Dunmer are segregated to the Grey Quarter.

There's even Nords who want to harass Dunmer because they're Elves so they might be working for the Thalmor. So with that line of thinking why are the Altmer ignored? Like if they want to play tensions with the Stormcloaks you have to wonder why are Altmer ignored due to the Thalmor's actions since the Markarth Incident who are a rather big reason for the Stormcloak rebellion.

[balmy salmon]

I think it's because unlike the Argonians and Dunmer, there's no cohesive diaspora of Altmer in Windhelm. The few that reside there aren't really connected aside from two of them being married.

[glacial scarab]

That only works for the Dunmer though due to the Red Year. Argonians didn't have any of that. The Argonian ban has its own oddities because the only reason we can get is from Brunwulf which is to protect them from the Nords but that's after the war and not what caused it from Ulfric.

Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted.
Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety.
Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone."

[balmy salmon]

We don't know how so many Argonians ended up at Windhelm but there's no denying that there's an unusual quantity of them living at Windhelm's docks, with only Riften having a comparable Argonian population.

By contrast, here are only two Altmer in Windhelm, and one married couple at the stables. They're not flying foreign banners or naming their establishments after Summerset cities, so the Stormcloaks aren't any more worried about them than they are about the few Imperials living in Windhelm.

[glacial scarab]

Argonains are not really explained the most the game shows you since it doesn't say anything is that you'll find them in settlements near water (Darkwater Crossing, Solitude, Windhelm and Riften if I recall).
Nords of Windhelm just decided to presumably attack them during Ulfric's build to the rebellion because we get very little information about it.

[sharp lantern]

Windhelm's Nords' beliefs are due to Ulfric's own. He made the policy because he mistrusts the Argonians, and his supporters fell to the same ideas.

[raw grail]

Argonians are also present bc of the Red Year by my understanding

The biggest Argonian populations are in Windhelm and Riften, which are also the places Morrowind refugees most commonly filtered through when fleeing the Red Year

This is true of Dunmer, too. We even have a Dunmer who was raised by Argonians, which provides a little bit more of the context that makes me feel this is most likely

[raw grail]

Keerava's family also has a farm in Morrowind. I imagine plenty are still in Windhelm and Riften bc of different reasons, like water access, which is also probably why Solitude has a few. It just seems like the current density of Argonians in Windhelm and Riften lines up very well with the density of Dunmer in the two cities, while Keerava and Brand-Shei seem to demonstrate at least some correlation between Skyrim's Argonians and Morrowind (which makes sense since Morrowind's second most populous race was probably Argonians, what with their proximity making Black Marsh an easy and valuable target for slavers)

[sonic fjord]

Does the canon hero of kvath uses a imperial armor?

[pastel sorrel]

There's no such "canon hero".

They wore whatever you want them to wear.

[sonic fjord]

Ok

[slate shoal]

a lot of the elder scrolls games don't really show you the how or if of things the Prisoners do
it could've been your HoK that joined the DB or mantled Sheo, or it could've been someone else, at the end of the day it might've happened

it's your own canon, make your own truth

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got some more for this idea I’m sharing:

Matthias: Trying to find out more about the rock Uriel V brought back with him is turning out to be more difficult than I thought, even more so than when I was looking for the Giant’s Flame. Searching the Fade (which is now the space “between” Thedas, Mundus, Aetherius, and the Realms of Oblivion) while dreaming has only revealed one memory tied to it so far:

Priest of Akatosh: You are just a boulder, neither harmful nor helpful. If I haven’t seen Uriel (V) kiss you and worship you so diligently, I would not do the same thing.

Matthias: From what I was able to find out from this memory, after Uriel V brought the rock back from Akavir, he built a shrine around it and worshipped it regularly. After his death, however, the shrine gradually fell into disrepair, and ultimately faded into obscurity. After that, the only other thing I found was a memory from the Oblivion crisis, where even Dagon’s most powerful champions were too afraid to go near it. What do you make of that?

[balmy salmon]

It seems that TIL's Interview with Two Denizens of the Shivering Isles page lacks text that it used to have. I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering it when I decided to take a look at it in the Wayback Machine and sure enough, it's different.

[fading flame]

You know I would be pretty scared if someone with a loin cloth started running across the battle field with only their fists started fighting a ghost and wining...

[upper field]

Bonus points if the song "Paralyzer" was playing in the background.

[stark socket]

I reported this over on TIL. 👍

[gaunt bear]

Ever noticed how… underwhelming the Dovah are? The emblems on the 7000 steps said that they could use the Thu’um to “blot out the sky and flood the land”, yet they, seemingly, don’t?

I’ve created a theory/backstory for this in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

In the “Time Before-Time” (i.e. the beginning of the current Kalpa) Alduin and his followers tried to stage a coup against Divine Father, Akatosh. Nobody knows why Alduin tried to do this (the Canticle of Divisions says it was because Alduin was too proud to bow before Adam, the first Man, and Ash, the first Mer), but whatever the reason, Alduin was unsuccessful, and he and his followers were cast out of Aetherius.

In retaliation, Alduin broke out of the Fade and assailed the Ancient Elves with war, which would eventually bleed into the Dragon War. During the conflict, while Alduin did battle with the Tongues, and a Last Alliance of the Secondborn attacked Alduin’s cult’s stronghold in Bromunjaar, the high priests of the Dalish Elven Gods (Elgar’nan, June, etc.) gathered at what is now Skyhold and “cast their Seal to Hold Back the Sky”, which can be simplified to “plugging the hole where Alduin broke through from the Fade to prevent him from using the Thu’um from (flooding the land and blotting out the sky)’.

Ever since then, the seal has been weakening (gotta think on a geological scale for that), and it has been reinforced several times throughout history, with Martin’s sacrifice being the most recent. However, with the opening of the Breach, the seal has a big enough hole in it to allow the Dovah, especially Alduin) to regain what they once had, slowly but surely. Also, because both Matthias (my Dragonborn) and Miraak are Dovahkiin, their already formidable powers are being augmented by new ones.

——

So, what do the lore-heads think?

[abstract arrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdSkHPg9ytI

[gaunt bear]

For future reference, Nahfahlaar was the one who served Tiber Septim, right?

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: Well, we’ve finally got to the rock before the Thalmor did, and I think we found what they were looking for, but it wasn’t what we or anyone else was expecting: the rock was actually the prison of an Akaviri spirit called Tamano-no-Mae, a wandering trickster deity of lust, mischief, desire (different than lust), power, and luck.

We don’t know how old she is, but she’s apparently been imprisoned in that rock for over three thousand years. She’s also capable of taking any form between fox and human, but her favorite forms are a pure white snow fox, a ten-foot-tall goddess of beauty and desire, and a nine-tailed fox the size of a mountain.

I’ve also managed to find out why the spirits of Aetherius, the Fade, and Oblivion are so nervous around her: she’s more than a little crazy (and not in Sheogorath’s preferred way). She claims to know exactly what it means to be Dragonborn, and intends to “groom” me to achieve that (Yup, a lesson in life I am sure to get. Uh-huh, I have seen better days). Part of why she’s more than a little crazy is what she’s claimed/sang she’s done:

“🎵 I’ve slept with Dagon, and played in his lair. I live how I live, and I do what I wanna do. There’s magic everywhere!🎵”

While I am skeptical about some of those claims, there’s at least some merit to it:

Pride demon: You havin’ fun smackin’ my boys around, Dragonborn?

Matthias: Well, it’s not quite the party you and Tamano-no-Mae are going to have, smackin’ it up in her… inner sanctum.

Pride demon: Tamano-no-Mae?! She’s back?! Oh, no! I ain’t crawling back into bed with her! Oh, no, I got dignity! * flees back to the Fade * I ain’t ever going back! Never going back! I got dignity!

Solas: * pauses in confusion * Well, that’s something you don’t see every day.

@plain cosmos So, what do you think?

[robust lintel]

He sounds like a proud and fancy-free dragon

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/resto-gorax-star-wars-gif-26695995

I feel like I am missing too much context after ignoring this silencing for months, to give any sort of reasonable assessment.

[gaunt bear]

I did. I wanted your opinion on these:

#elder-scrolls-lore message

#elder-scrolls-lore message

[gaunt bear]

She. Tamano-no-Mae is a girl

Tama-Chan: * not happy about being misgendered * * turns you into a squeaky toy and multiplies into a pack of wolf-like foxes to play with you.

[balmy salmon]

It might be a good time to bring up that there's a large Imperial population in Elsweyr.

The Rim-Men, the descendants of Imperials who intermarried with the Tsaesci invaders and adopted their culture.

[inland swift]

I didn’t know that was a thing, very cool thank you

[unkempt tide]

Keep it appropriate please chat

[slate shoal]

why is this Nord fan so adamant on defending the genocide of the Snow Elves

he's saying that all snow elves agreed to doing Saarthal too lol

it's impossible to assume an entire race would agree to slaughter of people they were once on friendly enough terms with

[fervent quail]

I wouldn't put it past any of the races of Tamriel, they're all pretty bloodthirsty on average

If we assume some amount of "civilised-ness" has increased over the thousands of years since, perhaps the average superiority streak of the modern High Elves has already been diluted since, and I doubt it existed only within them

Look at modern Nords like Heimskr too, I'm sure Ysgramor and his kin were far worse given the brutal nature of the slaughter and whatever issues they were dealing with back on Atmora giving them a more ruthless outlook

[fervent quail]

Of course, not all of them would have agreed though, but whether they were a silent majority or a minority remains unseen. Knight-Paladin Gelebor is a holy man, so it's likely he's one of the most noble of the snow elves as a reference, so while they could be almost as charitable and kind as he would be, it's also possible they weren't

[balmy salmon]

Looking at how divided the Ayleids and Dwemer were, I'd imagine the Falmer would have disagreements. Heck, for all we know, they might have ended up going to war with one another over the Eye of Magnus had the Return not happened.

[fervent quail]

I think had the Dwemer known about it, they most definitely would have. They had a specific radar for finding high-potency magical objects, and a blase (if not derisory) outlook of Divines and their "forbidden" tools. The Falmer probably would have tried to stop them, and the Chimer jumping in as they usually would

[raw grail]

Wasn't Crimson referring to Falmer vs Falmer over the Eye rather than Falmer vs Dwemer?

[raw grail]

?

That said, I could totally see the Dwemer gunning for it too

[glacial scarab]

Ayleids are in a weird spot tbf.

I don't think we know how divided they truly were of if they were a really decentralized Empire (TES is odd with them).

Falmer have been referred to as an Empire by a Snow Elf so there seems to be some organization doesn't stop infighting though.

[fervent quail]

That's a good point, I'm not sure why I read it the way I did. Point still stands though, just less relevant than I thought it was hahaha

[raw grail]

point does still stand, and a three way war like that sounds dope

[balmy salmon]

We know of at least two Ayleid civil wars, the Narfinsel Schism and another civil war that was the backdrop of the Alessian rebellion, both with the Ayleids being divided between Aedra and Daedra worshipers.

[balmy salmon]

Yeah that's what I meant. Just like how the Dwemer ended up going to war with each other over Aetherium, I can see the Falmer eventually having their own schisms over the Eye of Magnus.

[slate shoal]

absolutely, it would be a perfect story of united mer dividing themselves and having a political schism

it could be cool seeing a religious split as well

[slate shoal]

Some Falmer who seek power or view the artifact as one of Magnus vs Falmer who saw it as Auri-El /j

[raw grail]

Not even /j icl

No one we've talked to besides maybe the Psijic indicates they have any idea what it is, and the Psijic Order explicitly says that the "Eye of Magnus" is a name the College cooked up

The College indicates the same thing in Phinis Gestor's lecture on the Eye

[slate shoal]

yup!

it's entirely possible it's just a powerful artifact or one of another divine

[raw grail]

It'd be cool to see other religious takes on it

[slate shoal]

I wonder why the Atmorans coveted it's power

everyone focuses on the Snow Elves but I rarely see the Atmoran view on it

if they were trying to abuse its power same way Ancano was for example

[upper field]

It's possible it was less for the orb itself and more for the territory.

[slate shoal]

yup

though an oog text does imply it was partially for the eye

[upper field]

Right

[slate shoal]

I personally like to believe some Nords were tinkering with it which put already high tensions to the test, most Nords didn't know or agree with it and the Falmer attacked out of fear for their own

which is why the Nords buried it after

[glacial scarab]

There was possibly even Orcs in the area if I recall something. I have to find whatever said it

[slate shoal]

considering the Falmer worshipping trinimac while the Altmer/Aldmer sent out cults of Trinimac to chase the Dunmer it's possible they met

the Falmer faith is weird though

they had Phynaster and Syrabane in their pantheon, Syrabane wouldn't really gain much followers until after the Bendu Olo navy iirc, which was far after the end of their civilization

[raw grail]

This does start to make sense when you consider the often retroactive nature of divinity and divine acts

To become a god is to transcend linearity and causality, having a fundamentally different relationship with time and its passing

It is certainly weird tho

[pastel sorrel]

Time goes forwards and backwards, among many other directions.

Akatosh works hard to keep up the illusion of linearity

[woeful gyro]

Wibbly wobbly

[mint osprey]

If dwemers merged into numidium, what exactly happened to Arniel Gane?

[pastel sorrel]

Merged into the LDB, mayhaps.

[upper field]

🤔

That...would explain a lot actually.

[balmy salmon]

I wonder what it means for the Tribunal. Could it be that for a while, reality was shifted they were always gods, but upon being cut off from the Heart and their divinity fading, it reverted back to the past of them being mortals who used the Tools?

[raw grail]

I'd expect they still have an immortal divinity about in a sense, but their mortal bodies have also died now

It's hard to know tho Vivec speaks of losing his divinity, but is he speaking of 'here', in linear time? I'd expect that to be the case but I think it's up to interpretation

[pastel sorrel]

They lost their divine power, that doesn't mean the timeline reverted. The change was already made.

[balmy salmon]

The problem is that if the timeline was changed, and remained changed, then they wouldn't need to periorically bathe in the power of the Heart to maintain their power because they were born gods.

Unless something- like the Jills- were undoing their changes to the timeline, and they needed to occasionally reassert the new timeline to keep their divinity.

[pastel sorrel]

"Born" gods in a mortal world that's designed to limit that divinity.

Moreover, they likely didn't want to bathe too much in that Lorkhan juice, because look at what happened to Voryn Dagoth.

Inherently, they were still mortals, more or less. Their divinity was something they had to uphold, they're not on the level of the "planetary" aedra in orbit and whatnot who've already achieved apotheosis beyond the world.

They were gods of their mortal land, utilizing the power of the god of the world itself, whose very nature is to both limit and change things and was responsible for the introduction of mortality.

The center cannot hold, but also one cannot remain within it for long without causing further grief. The Tribunal were careful with their usage of the heart and tools, and even then Vivec and Sil at least recognized by the end the consequences of what they'd done.

Vivec speaks of having to refill that center as such, with the Nerevarine intended to be his replacement.

There's never been any indication their dwindling divinity was because they were being specifically targeted by Akatosh and co., nor that there's been any timeline shenanigans since their fall. They simply needed to periodically rejuvenate their stores of Lorkhan's divine power and keep the enchantments maintained, as they didn't produce that power themselves.

[balmy salmon]

If we want to get super-technical, there isn't really any evidence that they did anything beyond power themselves up with the Heart and then use a combination of propaganda and repression to craft the narrative that they didn't use Kagrenac's tools to draw power from the Heart.

However, if there is any truth to the notion that they achieved divinity by breaking time so they were always gods instead of just filling themselves with heart energy and declaring themselves gods, I would suspect that anything that acts to revert their new reality would be the work of the Jills, because mending time is what they do.

[pastel sorrel]

Rather unfounded suspicion considering all the other things the Jills have let slide over time. They're not fixing every little problem, and apotheosis puts you well outside of time's purview for the most part.

They're just helping him keep the various timelines generally in check, which are still highly volatile and change all the time.

[balmy salmon]

If apotheosis is tied to screwing with time, then mending it retcons you back to mortal.

[pastel sorrel]

There's never been any indication of that. The change is already made.

What business do the Jills have changing that yet again?

Again, the Tribunal's divinity or lack thereof has never, ever been tied to anything regarding Akatosh, besides his mythic role in Lorkhan's death that they're then drawing power from.

Even into TES5, there's still lingering power in their masks, notably Dagoth Ur's

They didn't produce their own divine power, so they drew it from Lorkhan.

[balmy salmon]

The thing is that by the time of TES III, if time was ever changed, it has reverted to the point where it might as well have never changed at all.

[pastel sorrel]

That's an assumption.

We only know the timeline where whatever changes were already made. Nothing's indicated anything's changed back.

[balmy salmon]

If there ever was a timeline where the Tribunal were always gods, it's irrelevant because even the Temple's own priests are ceasing to believe that narrative.

[pastel sorrel]

The Temple's always had a weird relation to the Tribunal's propaganda.

By rights half of Vivec's sermons would be apographa, but boldly he's got this stuff out in plain sight

[balmy salmon]

TES III treats the reveal as fairly simple: the Tribunal used the tools to power themselves up, similar to what Dagoth Ur did, and then lied to their followers. Even Vivec's own sermons had a coded confession.

[pastel sorrel]

Multiple, even.

And even part of Vivec's own propaganda is that it's recognized he's possibly lying

He is, after all, meant to be Mephala, theologically.

That's part of the schtick.

[balmy salmon]

Now that I've gotten the boring explanation out of the way, I do like the concept of the Tribunal effectively effectively Mandela Effecting themselves into gods, only to have to constantly renew this tweak to time, and once Dagoth Ur cuts them off, not only do they lose their divinity, but as the timeline reverts all the consequences of what they did in the original timeline comes flooding back. Their own followers start to notice the inconsistencies as teachings that were once truths become propaganda, Vivec reverts from the Divine Vehk who didn't kill Nerevar to the Mortal Vehk who did kill Nerevar, Almalexia reverts from the benevolent, divine Lady of Mercy to the power-hungry self-made widow.

I know, however that strictly speaking it's not as supported as the simpler, default explanation that "they were always mortals powered up on Lorkhan's divinity through artificial means, and their narratives were always upheld solely by propaganda and suppression of heretical texts".

[raw grail]

The mistake here is "a" timeline

My suggestion is that their immortal godhood is outside of timelines and outlives their godhood in the mortal world in linear time

[raw grail]

No one said they "achieved divinity by breaking time," but rather that being divine in and of itself entails transcending (linear, limited) time

[pastel sorrel]

^

Divinity itself is retroactive. They existed outside of time because of their apotheosis.

Vivec himself says (IIRC in the Trial) that his "real" birth was in the previous timeline, ascending upon touching Lorkhan's heart, with this new timeline having him being around before his original birth

And we know from especially ESO that even the notion of "one" timeline is sketchy at best, it's rope and spaghetti mixing around

Stuff just changes around sometimes, Akatosh is generally just keeping the worst at bay. And consider that "undoing" the Tribunal's changes would entail undoing an entire set of timelines. It's not just the Tribunal, it's literally the millennia-long history of the Dunmer and their interactions outside their borders. That would cause so many problems that are probably not worth fixing.

The Tribunal's loss of divinity was just because they produced none of their own, it was Lorkhan's power they topped up on and were cut off from.

It's even specifically the plot in ESO in Vvardenfell, Vivec ending up getting his divinity drained by force in an attempt to kill him for good (Baar Dau pushing in ever closer)

[balmy salmon]

Yet for all of his talk of other timelines, by the time of TES III it might as well have never happened. All eyes including those of the Temple's own clergy are squarely on the original timeline where, just as the Sermons secretly stated, Vivec "was not born a god."

[balmy salmon]

Yet as time passed in Mundus, the Tribunal's divinity faded without regular renewal. Either the timelines were shifting back towards where they were mortals or their access to divinity was not outside time.

[raw grail]

I don't even know how to respond to that because it feels like it's fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying

Like I feel as if you're engaging with a different point from the one I'm making

[balmy salmon]

Probably

[woeful gyro]

The trial isn’t canon (or at least i really hope it isn’t)

[raw grail]

The Trial isn't canon but "canon" and "useful context and information for interpreting and regarding lore" aren't quite the same thing

Loranna's RP, the Thief goes to Cyrodiil, and the like provide very useful insights into not only the headspace, thoughts, and intentions of devs and writers that were involved, but also give us access to information and inspirations that are used for future works but aren't within the limited scope and context of the games. Many pieces of lore that are now established canon began in places we now consider unofficial lore sources. Devs have repeatedly and consistently pointed to such things as worth regarding, even if they shouldn't be considered authoritative in the way games (etc) are. Thief Goes to Cyrodiil, for example, essentially breaks down a lot of the same concepts as the Sermons, increasing accessibility to laymen who want to understand better, and increasing context for more experienced lore nerds who want even more understanding

[balmy salmon]

To me, his dissociation from the Vehk that killed Nerevar feels like cope, a story he tells to distance and absolve himself from an act that he regrets.

But unlike Almalexia, he can't delude himself into fully believing his own lies.

[woeful gyro]

If that context is so important then they should put it in a game

[raw grail]

Not everything can be included in games

Unlike oog stuff, games have deadlines

[woeful gyro]

Well if it didn’t make the cut then I guess it wasn’t very important

[raw grail]

Making the cut and importance are not correlated

I'm not sure what the foundation of that argument is, that doesn't really track

Either way, if you don't want to consider OOG stuff that's fair, you don't have to, what you consider is up to you. Similarly, we can consider what we wish to consider. Personally, I find dev comments, interviews, oog sources, etc an interesting and useful perspective to keep in mind

[woeful gyro]

Was the part where Azura chokes on Vivec’s “spear” and then explodes interesting and useful

[heady wave]

I do wish there was some sort of OOG compendium for that type of thing. Some official lore book they use as relevant outside information as a collectible or something, kind of like what they did with The Main Events of the History of the World of Tamriel.

[raw grail]

I'm not defending the contents of any lore

[raw grail]

The Imperial Library is the best resource for most of that stuff. Obscure Texts and Developer Posts covers most of it

[raw grail]

https://www.imperial-library.info/out-of-game
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/game-category/obscure-text
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Developer_Posts
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Unofficial_Lore

[heady wave]

i know, thank you, i do wiki editing occasionally, i'm familliar with TIL.

[raw grail]

Oh okay, my b

[balmy salmon]

To be fair, we see Vivec with a literal spear several times- in in-game artwork, out-of-game outwork, and on his back in ESO.