elder-scrolls-lore

[raw grail]

It was started for the Markarth Incident by one account iirc

If that (Vulwulf joining in his younger days) is the case, uesp doesn't have his dialogue saying so, or it's from something besides his dialogue. That said, he says his daughter was there for the first clashes "many years ago"

.

[raw grail]

Has the war been hard on Markarth?
"It all started here. This rebellion. When the Empire lost the Reach during the Great War, we became desperate. We promised a group of Nord militia free worship in exchange for their help retaking the Hold. Then the Elves found out about it. We were forced to arrest all of them. Ulfric Stormcloak, their leader, used the whole thing as proof that the Empire had abandoned Skyrim. The rebels called it "The Markarth Incident." It was the founding day for the Stormcloaks, and where this war really started."

[sharp lantern]

''My father was a Stormcloak soldier in his younger days. Now he just walks the streets spewing his hatred and propaganda.'' -Asgeir Snow-Shod

[raw grail]

Ohh

Interesting... That literally seems to clash with his own testimony...

[raw grail]

He says first clashes, explicitly

And the Markarth Incident wasn't even 20 years ago

Wait nvm I'm bad at math, it was a bit over 20 years ago, in 176

I didn't realize how close the Markarth Incident was to the Great War

[fathom jewel]

I can't see ES6 having a setting where Skyrim is still part of the Cyrodiil Imperium. If the Stormcloaks win the civil war, then Cyrodiil loses Skyrim. If the Empire wins, it not only drains strength and reserves from the Legion, but makes it impossible for them to summon sufficient help and commitment from Skyrim when the Dominion invades again. I suspect ES6's setting will include an entire continent in chaos.

[sharp lantern]

I mean, the Stormcloaks are getting massacred by what is Imperial militia, and the game starts with Ulfric having been captured and almost executed.

Also, the Empire's spent the past 25 years actively rebuilding, a couple months of civil war does not undo all of that.

[fathom jewel]

Sounds like the civil war has been underway for 2.5 decades when ES5 starts, though. Also, those are Imperial formations, not militia. Remember most of all that the Imperial City was retaken in the War of the Red Ring only with massive help from the Nords. No matter what the outcome of the civil war, the Empire will have been fatally weakened. If the Dominion attacks with the same strength they did previously, they'll take all of Cyrodiil and keep it.

[glacial scarab]

If i recall there wasn't much Military movement. The Legions in Skyrim was already from before the Civil War only change was Tullius being sent.

I don't see them going for a Stormcloak victory because that would confirm player names due to Stormcloak "ranks"

[sharp lantern]

Imperial formations?

The legion forces in Skyrim rely a lot on local recruitment due to a lack of reinforcements - whose standards have dropped to such a point where the Legates state they take anyone they can muster and Rikke refers to them as militia material. Barely any of them use shields, and even fewer use segmented armor for full-on combat. These are not regular Legion soldiers.

Also, the Imperial City was retaken by the combined force of the entire Imperial military - unsure why you'd single out the Nord specifically.

Also also, if the war ends in a short timeframe, then the Empire won't be ''fatally weakened''.

[balmy salmon]

The Markarth Incident wasn't part of the Stormcloak rebellion, it was probably only after Ulfric was arrested that he committed to breaking free of the Empire.

That said, the Stormcloak movement didn't start with Torygg's death, the Stormcloaks had clearly been around for a while by that point.

[glacial scarab]

I really wouldn't use what we see in TES5 as the actual legion. The Civil war is badly rushed to the point dialogue defaults to the Legion in heavy armour when in game they are not.

[sharp lantern]

There being some proper Legionnaires among their ranks adds up, but there is no indication they'd be the majority. And comments like those of Rikke, Galmar, and the Legates don't particularly indicate that the local recruits are meant to be full-fledged soldiers on par with those trained in Cyrodiil.

[glacial scarab]

We don't really know how much of the Legions in Skyrim are new recruits as dialogue never goes into detail as all they say is that they're stretched thin and had to recruit locally which tells us nothing. We have no idea how much they had to recruit to be at full capacity and even then they'd probably still be overstretched (like the Vvardenfell Legions were) given Tullius has been requesting reinforcements.

[fathom jewel]

So you can see it for yourself - the Empire is only able to commit limited resources to Skyrim and is already badly stretched because of worsening manpower shortages. Also, it was a large Nord force that made the critical difference in the Battle of the Red Ring. THere's no question - the civil war is a catastrophe for the Empire. If the Dominion returns with the same sized or larger force than before, Cyrodiil will fall.

[fathom jewel]

Agreed. Good analysis.

[glacial scarab]

From dialogue we hear that most of the Legion is in Cyrodiil. We don't know how many Legions are active in the 4th era given how vague TES is with lore scale. We also don't know how the Council/Grand Marshal/Emperor made the decision to only send Tullius as it could go either way of thinking Tullius was enough or focusing too much on the Dominion/Empire border.

The best time to negotiate is from a position of strength.
"Fair enough. We're driving the Stormcloaks back well enough at the moment, but we're already overstretched. That's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If the Emperor would just give me the reinforcements I've requested!"

Why won't the Emperor send more reinforcements?
"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

[upper field]

Going to be interesting in ES6 what shape the Legion will be in at that point in time.

[fathom jewel]

Agreed. Maybe they'll be intact and confident after a fresh defense of Cyrodiil against a 2nd Dominion attack. Or maybe they won't exist anymore - either because the Dominion retook the Imperial City and Cyrodiil broke into Nibenese and Colovian remnants, or because the Dominion overran the whole province. That last part could be quite difficult for the Dominion, as it wouldn't surprise me if the Dunmer actually intervened to thwart the attempt. I strongly doubt the Dunmer would feel comfortable with the Thalmor right on their SW border.

[glacial scarab]

I doubt the Dunmer are in a position to launch any military actions. They got very messed up early on in the 4th era.
If anything they're most likely going back to isolation and not caring about the outside world.

[glacial scarab]

With the Empire we simply know nothing army wise to really make any sort of prediction. Like we don't know how many Legions are in High Rock, Skyrim, Cyrodiils border with the Dominion and Cyrodiils other borders.
Only thing we know for Skyrim is Tullius saying that he has a "bare handful of Legions"

[sharp lantern]

It isn't "manpower shortages", it is preparation for the next war with the Dominion. The bulk of the Legion is on the Aldmeri-Cyrodiil border, and only a garrison force was left in Skyrim.

General Jonna did not "make the critical difference", the capital was reclaimed by the main - largely Cyrodilic - force. Not Jonna's Legions.

The Empire is better prepared now than it was in 171.

[pastel sorrel]

Jonna's and Decianus's forces were explicitly there to surround the city, securing the Red Ring Road and dealing with counterattacks from inside and out. It was Titus's forces who pushed into the city itself.

[sharp lantern]

^

Exactly. Not like that isn't important, but to act like Jonna's Legions securing a road is the ''critical difference'', and not the actual force retaking the capital just seems... off.

[raw grail]

What?

2.5 years?

Where'd that come from? Ik it might have been going a little bit before Torygg died but he died only a few months ago

The Stormcloaks have existed much longer than that but I don't think they were in full out civil war

[raw grail]

We do know reinforcements are currently blocked by an avalanche (but will be on the way again when that's cleared)

[raw grail]

Explicitly, from two people, the Civil War will end ambiguously to leave it open to player choice. I've said it before and will likely say it again - Skyrim splitting east and west again would probably work wonderfully

No need to confirm who won, or that anyone won, within the scope of Skyrim

On the Tarot Guidebook Strength card description (2022-07-27) Edit
I have a question about some stuff in the book though. The description of Strengths mentions how Ulfric overcame the Empire and saved Skyrim from foreign rule. Is that talking about the end of the Civil War, confirming that Stormcloaks win? Or just his story up to the start TES5?
Just as there are many possible futures in tarot, there are many possible story choices in Skyrim! As a tarot card, that passage simply represents the "upright" fortune that is possible for Ulfric. The civil war is still canonically a player choice within Skyrim.

Who won Skyrim's Civil War? Empire or Stormcloaks? (2018-02-09) Edit
As with other Elder Scrolls games(like the multiple endings to Daggerfall) the studio doesn't really force one outcome as canon. That'd sort of diminish each player's choice.

[glacial scarab]

Actually no. Tullius explicitly says he's not receiving reinforcements but it's not due to an avalanche.

The best time to negotiate is from a position of strength.
"Fair enough. We're driving the Stormcloaks back well enough at the moment, but we're already overstretched. That's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If the Emperor would just give me the reinforcements I've requested!"

Why won't the Emperor send more reinforcements?
"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes."

The only thing the avalanche did was stop Ulfric being taken into Cyrodiil and was where the player was picked up. An avalanche wouldn't stop reinforcements given magic exists and they could just sail around Tamriel to Skyrim

[glacial scarab]

I think base game already sets up a way to just ignore player choice.

Titus Medes and Vittoria Vicis assassination.

Breaching Security tries to undermine Maro by talking of Stormcloak plot to kill the Emperor when they kill his son and plant it on his body.
Ulfric Stormcloak avoids an assault on Solitude while the Wedding is happening or when Titus himself is there as he wants to avoid spilling royal blood to have more Legions sent in to deal with him.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Incriminating_Letter_(DB)

Vunwulf,

I agree to your conditions. When the Emperor arrives, I will pass along his schedule, and arrange for all doors to be unlocked, and any posted security to be conveniently absent for a small period of time.

Nothing will stand between your men and his eminence. He will die by Stormcloak hands, and neither my father nor your great leader Ulfric will even know anything is amiss until it is too late.

Leave the first payment, in gold, at this dead drop.

I look forward to continuing our relationship.

Gaius Maro

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak

If Bound Until Death is active:

What's next?
"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."
If To Kill an Empire is active:

What's next?
"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

[raw grail]

How does that set up a way to ignore player choice?

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloak_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)
These concur that Imperial help is delayed because of the avalanche

[glacial scarab]

Titus Mede's assassination taking the focus over the civil war and having more legions sent in to put the rebellion down.

Ulfric's trying to avoid "an all out war with the Empire" which means getting more Legions in Cyrodiil sent to deal with him.

[glacial scarab]

I know of the Avalanche but it does nothing from Imperial Reinforcements something we hear from the General himself that he's not getting since the Empires focus is on the Dominion/Cyrodiil Border.

Stormcloak missive can easily be false intel or Imperial forces within Skyrim itself since Tullius contradicts the idea he's getting reinforcements from Cyrodii. And the General has more reliability of that subject then an enemy fort.

Tullius' lines come from season unending when you try to get him to go without using persuade or saying Ulfric already agreed.

[raw grail]

Both the Imperial and Stormcloak missives agree that the avalanche is preventing Imperial assistance

It might be different from the reinforcements Tullius is talking about! But I don't think your logic holds up to completely dismiss them when both missives agree, and since it isn't necessarily an enemy fort since it can change hands.

[raw grail]

Ahh, so it might provide an avenue for either the conflict to continue or an overwhelming Imperial response

Also, re: magic/sailing
Magic requires you have mages capable of what you need on hand, and still takes time, especially depending on how big the avalanche is, how many mages, how powerful or weak of mages, their Magicka reserves, whether they're willing to gas themselves out using all of their Magicka on this... Sailing takes time, period, and can't be done from the opposite side of the pass without traveling

[glacial scarab]

Why would it be different from the General handling the entire conflict in Skyrim?

The Imperial one just talks of Supply lines not manpower.
Stormcloak one is having Imperial forces around it but they don't know who they are since they can't just go up to them and ask.

Like reinforcements would be entire Legions

The Pale Pass avalanche only really handles why the player is picked up for the intro and why Ulfric wasn't taken to the Imperial City after being caught near Darkwater crossing.

[glacial scarab]

The Empire has the time if they were sending reinforcements they'd have Battlemages melt the avalanche or open a portal to bypass it entirely or just sail the reinforcing Legions around to Solitude,

[upper field]

Ah speaking of the Emperor, I wonder if his assassination will be noted in ES6 (even if the player character themselves don't do it).

[raw grail]

They may have the time, generally speaking, but considering the fact the game takes place during a proverbial screenshot of Skyrim rather than having events happen and things change as time pass, I don't think they have the time within the scope of Skyrim

[raw grail]

You have the order on the Imperial missive backwards

As ordered, I have assumed command of Fort Neugrad. Morale is low, and the ongoing chaos in Helgen has left our supply lines dangerously vulnerable. Pale Pass is all but closed due to avalanches in the mountains. We need more support, or our garrison will not withstand another attack.

I also don't know why reinforcements necessitate even a legion, let alone several

Hell, Tullius doesn't even say reinforcements aren't coming at all, just that he's not receiving the ones he's asked for

[glacial scarab]

There's no real gap between Legion or no Legion. Like soldiers are tied to those armies as it's the nature of military forces of the tech period as they don't gut one to reinforce another. Something we don't even know for Skyrim is how many Legions are in Skyrim as there's just a vague "bare handful of Legions"

I think TES3 does it by a Legion per fort but I need to pull up the construction set to check dialogue

[glacial scarab]

Time passing is more quest based it can happen off screen. Like how Titus is able to sail to Skyrim during the later stages of the Dark Brotherhood questline.

[glacial scarab]

Fort commanders in TES3 are referred to as Generals like with Darius and Larrius Varro.
Legion at Gnisis is called the Deathshead Legion.

[fathom jewel]

No - 2.5 DECADES. So 25 years. Might actually be a little longer than that.

[raw grail]

Oh oh, I misread

[raw grail]

I assume you're starting with the Markarth Incident then?

[fathom jewel]

Yeah. Dunno if it's the most accurate point of reference, but the relevant factor is that Skyrim has been restless for some significant period of time, and this spells potential long term trouble for Cyrodiil and its empire. To be honest, I would personally prefer to see the Empire fall, but not have it replaced by the Dominion. I'm not a fan of empires. Despite the fascinating achievements of large, centrally organized imperiums such as the Achaemenid Persians, the Romans, the several imperial Chinese eras, Ancient Egypt and so forth, the periods in human history of greatest dynamism appear (to me) to occur when there are multiple independent states/nations/tribes interacting vigorously - not only in war, but in commerce and the attendant intermingling of ideas, inventions, religions and so forth.

(Sorry about the philosophical interlude 🙂 )

[sharp lantern]

Normally Fort Neugrad would've been able to rely on Helgen for Imperial reinforcements, and on the Pale Pass for supplies. Now Helgen is a smoking ruin and Pale Pass is closed off - Fort Neugrad would not be in a good position if it were to be attacked, lacking both men and supplies.

That's why that letter was written to request support.

[sharp lantern]

Some of them are explicitly referenced as having a full legion as its garrison. Fort Darius has the Deathshead Legion, and Ebonheart has the Hawkmoth Legion.

The rest are implied through the names of the forts, but never outright stated afaik.

[sharp lantern]

I think he'll be dead by TES VI anyway. Whether a murder or not I'm less sure of. I think they purposefully made Mede, by his own word, an ''old man'' - to give them a way to say he died without having to specify how he died.

[upper field]

Oh true.

[raw grail]

It relates Helgen to supply lines, not reinforcements

[pastel sorrel]

Considering the significance, there's no way Titus isn't dead post-TES5

The DB has survivors even if you purge the sanctuary, and they send in backup for you hiding out in case you were to fail the assassination

His assassination was ordered by members of the Elder Council. Mans is gonna die.

It's just gonna be left ambiguous who did it, since it's not necessarily the PC doing all the sidequests and such, but certainly someone does them.

[fathom jewel]

Question is - who is his successor? Could be vital.

[balmy salmon]

As far as I know, there's no information on it.

I'd imagine he does have an heir, because back in TES III, the mere possibility of the Emperor dying without a heir was a major topic of discussion across the province, and once it happened in TES IV, it was again a widely discussed topic among the NPCs.

But with the lack of information, there's a lot of plausible directions that Bethesda could take with it.

[pastel sorrel]

Successor's entirely unknown, we won't know until later.

[glacial scarab]

If they even talk of the Empire.

[robust lintel]

Thalmor lol

[fathom jewel]

I wonder - why did the Thalmor become so militant? The lore I remember reading indicated that the Thalmor were simply a pro-Altmer political/civic group for most of their existence. Their current incarnation seems to suggest that they've become rather extreme in their views.

[raw grail]

This is post-Tiber is probably the biggest reason

The odd thing about that is that his siege is not actually explicitly mentioned anywhere as a motivation or consideration of the Thalmor afaik, but considering what PGE3 was saying...

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Summerset

It leaves you with a fairly dangerous climate, internally, as a result of the Third Empire and all that, even without Tiber's conquest being explicitly blamed for the modern Thalmor

Additionally, it may have to do with what they had to do to secure their power in the first place - it required fairly extreme actions. Someone(s) in the Thalmor was being aggressive from the get-go. According to Rising Threat and the Great War, took credit for saving Summerset from the Oblivion Crisis, performed a coup on the monarchy, killed and shut down resistors, then started performing coups in other provinces, including potentially assassinating the Potentate...

[raw grail]

What happens to a pro-Altmer political group when it gets shut down for centuries, its ideals rebelled against by its provinces own people?

Player: "Do all Thalmor have such high opinions of themselves?"
Justiciar: "That we are superior to men is an established fact. For example, take this belief in Talos. The "ninth" Divine. Heh. Certainly you don't believe such things? Perhaps there's something you wish to confess?"

Player: "What's wrong with worshipping Talos?"
Justiciar: "It's immoral to worship a man. And it's also illegal. A faithful Imperial citizen would know that. Perhaps there's something you wish to confess?"

- Excerpts from Generic Thalmor Dialogue

What do you mean "saviors of Mer"?
"The Thalmor saved all of Elven-kind during the Oblivion Crisis. We've been watching over our lands for 200 years. We re-founded the Aldmeri Dominion, an alliance between us and our Bosmer cousins. You might know them from their common name. Wood elves. We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century at a time."
- Ondolemar

If we turn to OOG stuff from MK, we also have "what appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos"

What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos (2008-01-11) Edit
"To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

"To achieve this goal, we must:

"1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

"2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

"3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

Merry Christmas,

MK

Which doubles down on the religious side of things. This especially makes sense when you keep in mind Talos took the seat of Shezarr (or Lorkhan), and therefore is essentially their jailor (on top of being contradictory to their beliefs that men lost their divine spark and can't ascend)

They might believe they can free themselves from this prison by killing men and the god of men

But ultimately, the best we can do is speculate all we know for sure is they want to prove their superiority over the mannish races, explicitly

[fathom jewel]

Interesting and super informative. Many thanks.

This raises questions in my mind, though. THink about how extremist political movements sprung from the early 20th century and rose to tyrannical power. I'm talking about Mussolini's Fascie Nere, Hitlers Brownshirts, Lenin's Bolsheviks and Mao's CCP. In each case, severe internal socioeconomic turmoil gave these leaders and their organizations the opportunity to enter the scene in their countries as 'visionary' saviors and paved the way for their rapid rise to power and even more rapid consolidation of ruthless dictatorial oppression. But despite the loss of Dominion territory on mainland Tamriel and the Oblivion crisis, I haven't seen anything in the lore which suggests that Summerset during that period suffered sustained and utterly devastating economic stress and/or social dislocation and chaos. Granted: they lost Crystal As Law. But Cyrodiil and its empire lost the White Gold Tower yet did not devolve into a monstrous, bloodthirsty, militant tyranny.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it does make me wonder if the Thalmor have the complete support of Altmer citizens in Summerset, or Bosmer and Khajiit citizens in the continental territories.

[raw grail]

Did you read the PGE section I sent?

They've experienced more social disarray since the start of the 3rd Era than they had in a long time - since the other elves split off

[raw grail]

We know they don't have complete support of Bosmer. Malborn and Delphine talk about it. At least one of the Khajiiti caravan leaders is also staunchly anti-Thalmor. Both were overtaken by coups, as was Summerset. Rising Threat is also written by an Altmeri dissident refugee fleeing Summerset, and Runil is ex-Thalmor

[fathom jewel]

OK, I see. That introduces some potentially dynamic elements into the political future of Tamriel. Hope BGS takes full advantage of this in ES6.

[abstract ledge]

https://images.uesp.net/d/d4/LG-cardart-Alisanne_Dupre.jpg wish they'd confirm if alisanne dupre was breton or not

[pastel sorrel]

I mean I thought it'd be pretty obvious? She's from Wayrest, she looks Breton, she has/took a Breton name, she's probably at least half-Breton.

[abstract ledge]

well yeah

[fathom jewel]

She's probably not a Sload....

[abstract ledge]

are you sure

[brisk perch]

We are all Sload inside

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/jabba-the-hutt-laugh-monster-gif-13644611

[weak solstice]

Me

[balmy salmon]

I've been wondering if the resolution of the Great War could have angered the Dominion's own citizens much as it angered the Nords and Redguards.

Countless elves and Khajiit lost their lives only for their leaders to hand all of Cyrodiil's territory back and then a few years later, lose all their gains in Hammerfell too.

[raw grail]

Huh. That's an interesting thought. To the Thalmor it might as well be a win but to their people... Especially non-Altmer with whom they have less control over the narrative...

[brisk perch]

Hmm, there was some very recent lore involving the first Aldmeri Dominion that may imply the origins of the third Aldmeri Dominion's Thalmor, or at least the ideals that kept resurfacing over and over again in the Summerset Isles.
||Essentially, there were multiple subfactions forming in the Thalmor that have tried to overthrow/replace/substitute the existing one with themselves for their own ideas of a perfect Aldmeri society||

[fathom jewel]

That's an interesting idea. They lost their entire army in Cyrodiil and fought what must have been a costly campaign in HF with nothing to show for it. If Summerset were then attacked by the Sload and the Maormer (assuming they can still assemble a fleet) who sensed a moment of weakness in their mutual enemy and the attackers actually caused significant problems, this would be a dire situation for the Thalmor.

[raw grail]

Where's that from? 👀

[brisk perch]

||Tanlorin's short companion questline in The Elder Scrolls Online||

[raw grail]

Intriguing

[pastel sorrel]

that tracks given their roots as Being Concerned With Genealogy™️

inevitably, whose genealogy is of concern is gonna depend on who's in charge

[brisk perch]

You can thank Xarses and by association Hermaeus Mora for that, it seems.

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got something from My Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction I’d like to share:

Matthias: I’ve found something really interesting, but really troubling as well. Because I’m Dragonborn, spirits are flocking to my dreams like moths to a flame. It’s because of this that I’ve discovered something really interesting:

The Thalmor are looking for something called the Giant’s Flame!

I don’t know what it is, but if the Thalmor want it so badly, it can’t be good.

When I found a spirit that knew something about it, he told me about where it should be used properly:

“In the ‘world that feeds the world’, of course. There, the Giant’s Flame burns bright, but consumes none but its bearer. And the bearer burns until there is nothing left, not even ashes.”

I spoke to Sheogorath about this, since the spirit was clearly insane, but… he didn’t get it either, since such a thing was apparently before his time.

I spoke with Jyggalag next, but all I got for my trouble was a lecture about ‘uncontrolled power’. He did confirm that it was tied to the previous kalpa, after the Dreughs were consumed by Alduin, but before our own kalpa.

Author’s note: this is all about having fun.

[fathom jewel]

If it's from a previous Kalpa, then I would imagine the Flame is unrelated to the Giants of the current Kalpa. The Giants who created and owned this Flame must be from a previous Kalpa and be extremely different beings - maybe something analogous to the Giants of Teutonic myth or the Titans of ancient Greek myth. Those were beings that contended with the Gods. Perhaps.....the legend of Prometheus could provide inspiration here.

[jovial monolith]

They didn't but after their purges everyone who was against them learned to be silent

Read up on the night of green fire I think it's called. Famous thalmor purge of disseidents and altmer refugees

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: I looked into the Giants who, supposedly, created the Giant’s flame, and discovered something alarming and facinating:

The giants as we know them are apparently the “inbred morons” or “village idiots” of the Ancient Giants (as the spirits call them), and they kept the ancestors of the elves as slaves. Apparently, the Thalmor rhetoric is a corruption of the original rhetoric of the elven slave rebellion.

I also found out that, during Alduin’s “purge” of the Ancient Giants, the giants unleashed the power of their Flame against him and burned him, really bad. But it wasn’t enough to save them or their civilization from destruction.

[jovial monolith]

You gonna cite some sources? Thats a lot.

[gaunt bear]

This is for fun!!! We’re trying to have fun here!!! Party pooper!!!

[jovial monolith]

I want good and accurate fun 😂

[plain cosmos]

That's some Skeptic reasoning there.

https://tenor.com/view/i-like-that-dan-gallagher-fatal-attraction-s1-e7-i-like-that-idea-gif-5707304908109937196

[brisk perch]

Canon in The Elder Scrolls are whatever the developers say is canon. It's powered in-universe by clap your hands if you believe, same with how magic works (implied to originate from storytelling)

[jovial monolith]

I mean I think they mostly held it together until the addition of the shiny daedric prince

Love a new daedric prince. Hate Walmart brand meridia!

[fathom jewel]

So are these ancient Giants from a different Kalpa, or from the current Kalpa who were destroyed during the Dawn era?

[gaunt bear]

Different Kalpa, most likely. The one before the current Kalpa. Like I said, the Ancient Giants tried to use the power of their flame to defeat Alduin, but only succeeded in burning him really badly.

[fathom jewel]

So the ancient giants from a previous Kalpa were very powerful and enslaved the elves of their Kalpa. They fought Alduin and were vanquished after a fierce struggle. There needs to be a 'mechanism' for their Flame and their much weaker and less capable descendants to survive them and endure into a new Kalpa. Maybe tie them into the Redguards and their pantheon, who also were able to transition from one Kalpa to the next. For instance: could the Giant's Flame be connected in some way to Sword Singing? Perhaps this control or tapping into the power of the Giant's Flame is what led to war between the Left Hand Elves and the Yokudans/Redguards, as well as being the source of power which destroyed/submerged the continent of Yokuda.

[gaunt bear]

I was able to find out a few clues that are fleeting at best, but it’s the only thing we got.

• The first thing I saw, in my dreams, what resembled a cauldron, or goblet, that was referred to as a “forge” of some kind, and that it belonged to the ancient Giants.
• The Yokudans/Redguards have blackened skin because they worked in close proximity to the flame.
• I also saw several weapons that had been tempered with the flame, one of them wielded by a “kingly” figure, and said weapons were somehow able to ‘resonate’ with Sword Singing.
• Finally, the final thing I found out was both precise and vague at the same time: the Left Hand Elves wanted access to the flame because it belonged to their old masters, but the Yokudans wouldn’t do it because doing so was “dishonorable” to them. Ultimately, the Elves gained access to the forge and began “draining” something, but Yokuda started sinking soon afterwards.

[fathom jewel]

Wait - I bet the Left Hand Elves would feel VERY nervous about anyone having access to the awesome power of their former enslavers. If the Yokudans did have that access, right there is a pretext for the LE Elves to commence war against them, whether or not the Yokudans had shown any intentions of using the Flame against the LE Elves. These leaves open the question, however, of who might have used the Flame to sink Yokuda. Was it a final blow of spite by LE Elves who'd found a way to access the Flame, or was it a faction internal to the Yokudans who, after a struggle for power/dominance, decided to follow the precept of France's Louis XV - "Apres Moi, Les Deluge"?

[gaunt bear]

Here’s the craziest thing I found out: when I asked the spirits of the Fade about the sinking of Yokuda, they said that “something happened that shouldn’t have”.

[gaunt bear]

Inquisitor Maxwell Trevelyan: While we are keeping our eyes and ears open for the Giant’s Flame, I’m in a bit of a pickle. A group of Dunmer have approached the Inquisition claiming to be representatives of House Hlaalu, and offering aid to the Inquisition. Matthias has already informed me of the revenge plot in Raven Rock, but their offer seems sincere. What should I do?

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: I found something really unusual in the Fade that was tied to the Giant’s Flame:

A dying breath from a Yokudan who went down with his land: At least no one else will be tempted to use it anymore.

This implies that there were at least a few Yokudans who were at least tempted to us it.

[fathom jewel]

But why would nobody else be tempted? It is, after all, a source of tremendous power. And remember the old maxim: Power exerts its strongest attraction on those who are least worthy to wield it.

[gaunt bear]

Yeah, I’m still looking into that. I’ll let you know if I find anything.

[gaunt bear]

But I’m pretty sure Maxwell has a question about Dunmer here: #elder-scrolls-lore message

[sharp lantern]

Why do so many people still believe the Redoran account of the Legions being recalled to defend Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis, when there is more evidence to the contrary?

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: That’s why I’m asking what should I do with House Hlaalu making offerings of aid to the Inquisition?

[fathom jewel]

Wait - why would House Redoran tell this story? What's in it for them to make people think that the Legions left at that time?

[sharp lantern]

It makes their story of defending Morrowind sound that much more heroic, and it would make people despise the Empire - and in turn its biggest supporter in the province: House Hlaalu. Ancient rival of the Redoran.

This was an easy way for the Redoran to skyrocket their own backside while at the same time weakening two organisations it opposed: the Empire and the Hlaalu.

And it worked; Morrowind is now independent, the Redoran are the most powerful House, the Redoran hold the capital, the Hlaalu were removed from their Great House status, and the remaining Houses wouldn't have anywhere near enough strength to oppose the Redoran.

[balmy salmon]

Worth pointing out that in TES III, Hlaalu was doing everything they could in screwing over Redoran. Looting their tombs, taking Caldera, sabotaging their businesses, impersonating their lords to steal their plans, spreading (likely true) rumors about Redoran's (extremely scummy) Archmaster, the list goes on.

After all the crap that Hlaalu was pulling, Redoran definitely had motive to discredit them.

[fathom jewel]

Well, as long as House Redoran doesn't make their position of power too uncomfortable and overbearing on the rest of the houses, the country should remain stable.

[slate shoal]

Is it safe to assume snow elf stone is likely a polished white limestone?

but what is the metal? would it be made of corundum, bronze, brass, meteoric iron, or just plain iron? or perhaps a tarnished gold?

how much of their culture and archetecture is like that of Ayleids? did they come together as a group from Aldmeris and split apart in tamriel?

[plain cosmos]

More likely a marble, because writers rarely understand geology and EVERYTHING fancy is marble.

Though, given Nirn's origins, they probably don't even have the same types of rock we do.

[slate shoal]

fancy earthbones

[fathom jewel]

Culturally, I would guess the Snow Elves are basically Altmer who live in a cold, snowy region. Altmer with parkas and balaclavas, as it were. They would have less in common with the Ayleids because of the Ayleid interest in Daedra worship.

[glacial scarab]

I find people will believe anything. Like how people complained about the Volkihar in Skyrim while using Immortal Blood as the source.

People don't engage critical thinking at times.

The Legions not being recalled is a plot point of TES4 and we have script notes for Ocato if I recall adding to it.

[sharp lantern]

Ocato explicitly says they were already fully commited and that he'd have a full-scale political crisis if he tried to force them to come to Cyrodiil, yea.

[glacial scarab]

I've been pleading for troops for Cyrodiil for weeks, but the generals assure me that the entire Imperial Army is already fully committed.

Script Notes
"disgust at the pig-headed military types he is forced to deal with"

Besides... I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces.

Script Notes
"admitting that in fact, it isn't really the generals fault"

Normally I'd have a screenshot for it however Oblivions Construction set always crashes when I try to look at it.

[topaz dome]

Ocato's dialogue can be found on his UESP page: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:High_Chancellor_Ocato

[glacial scarab]

I know. But I was after the script notes which if I recall is for the voice actor and won't be on the character page on UESP.

A quick example of script notes
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/565656897835761669/912494930151223386/unknown.png?ex=6737e2a0&is=67369120&hm=12dd8948cda6fb064e0c44c098d42e944cf0d8410e203dec8efe7ec92b15b88f&

[topaz dome]

Ah, I see. My mistake.

[hazy quiver]

Oh that’s interesting. So House Redoran’s just pulling something similar to the Thalmor or An-Xileel claiming that they ended they did more during the Oblivion Crisis than Cyrodiil

[proven moss]

This reasoning never made any sense to me

This plot point never made any sense to me

You'll have a full political crisis on your hands? YOU'RE BEING INVADED BY AN ALIEN DIMENSION! You've already got a full scale political crisis on your hands

And the generals, just countermanding the central government like that

If they were harboring thoughts of rebellion, they'd be marching on the capital after the Emperor and his sons were murdered

And why aren't there any generals in Cyrodiil??

[fathom jewel]

Question: once teh oblivion gates in ES4 were closed, I remember them still being there - just in an inactive state. I'm wondering if the gate structures remained afterwards (say, until 4th era 201, when ES5 occurred) or if they were actively dismantled.

[proven moss]

I guess trying to protect the local population of the provinces is... admiral I guess? But wouldn't your priority being with protecting your home province, where your family and friends likely live?

It's just all nonsense to me

[proven moss]

They did remain. One is used in the novel as an access point to Oblivion

It wasn't open of course but it made the barrier between realms a bit more pliable there.

Just a sec -

[proven moss]

The square was mostly stone, oddly cracked and melted as if from terrible heat or some stranger force. Two bent columns projected up in the middle, each about ten feet high, and together they resembled the truncated horns of an enormous steer.
"Yes, I've seen them before - the ruins of an Oblivion gate."

That's from, what, like 48 years after the Crisis takes place.

A town had grew up around it, but it wasn't dismantled

It's possible some were, some weren't. We don't really know. Although none showed up in Skyrim (probably because it's a small insignificant detail unimportant to the plot)

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, it's surprising that Skyrim didn't have a single oblivion gate. The Oblivion crisis isn't even mentioned - nothing about how the Nords dealt with it, fought against the invaders or anything at all. Either they destroyed them all, or Skyrim was so unimportant to Dagon's plans that he didn't even bother invading it.

[gaunt bear]

I’d say, a little bit of Column A, a little bit of Column B.

[proven moss]

We do have evidence they attacked Skyrim

From Oblivion rumors:

I hear all of Skyrim is under siege. The daedra lay waste to the Old Holds, and there is little to do to stop it.

There is grave news from Skyrim. From Falkreath to Windhelm, the foul daedra attack the land.

There are foul tidings from Skyrim. The Greybeards speak of the end of all times.

Somewhere I think we hear that Solstheim was ignored in the Oblivion crisis. Not sure where though. Or if that's correct. 🤔

Oh, it comes from the History of Raven Rock vol. 1

When the Oblivion Crisis arose in 3E 433, Raven Rock remained largely untouched by Mehrunes Dagon's forces and work continued as usual. The bulk of the Imperial Guard that was stationed in Raven Rock was recalled to Cyrodiil to fight the invading forces, but a few soldiers remained behind in order to protect the ebony mine from bandits. It's uncertain whether any Oblivion Gates ever opened on Solstheim, as there appears to be no record of such an event ever occurring there.

[fathom jewel]

Interesting! Good find, brother. 👍

[slate shoal]

what metal do they use

[fathom jewel]

I would assume that the materials they used to make armor and weapons is identical to that of the altmer.

[slate shoal]

maybe

it's highly likely it's weathered gold imo, stone being white limestone or polished white granite/marble

sorry for such a weird interest lol

[clever goblet]

the snow elves used snow elves to build snow elf stuff

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine the Legions are one of the first things targeted since the Mythic Dawn probably doesn't want the armies going anywhere.

Ocato's second line is probably just thinking politically.

[glacial scarab]

TES4 is pretty terrible with making the Imperial City feel like a capital. There is very little heads of factions here from the Legions to the East Empier Company.

[topaz dome]

Or the Fighters Guild. The Fighters Guild was the first faction I wanted to join in my first playthrough. I must have spent an hour and a half searching every nook and cranny of the city. I finally had to take a break and go for a walk to calm down before I became so frustrated I punched a hole in my monitor.

[dark palm]

Does anyone else feel like we take Vivec too seriously sometimes?

[dark palm]

I’ve been random paging UESP and I found an ESO character that talks about finding burnt fish in the waters of Gideon

What’s up with that?

[sharp lantern]

I have the exact same issue lmao.

[sharp lantern]

That's how read it, yeah.

[sharp lantern]

All we hear of Solstheim in TES IV is the Nords trying to destroy the Legion fort there

[proven moss]

I found the source to the info.
Here: #elder-scrolls-lore message

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, read that, but I thought I'd chime in with the rumors we hear in TES IV

[slate shoal]

Nords are good at destroying things and not much else

[fathom jewel]

They can yell pretty loud....

[slate shoal]

that's true, murder pillage yell and make mead

[sharp lantern]

And farm wheat!

[fathom jewel]

And maybe share beard grooming tips between each other...

https://tenor.com/view/viking-gif-18137671

[icy dove]

Along with being milk drinkers

[dark palm]

When can we get more Craglorn style lore

The lore in that part of ESO was amazing

[fathom jewel]

in es6

[robust lintel]

Teletubies could legit be in TES. Horrifying creatures. Probably brain-eaters

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/teletubbies-tinky-winky-dipsy-laa-laa-po-gif-27103612

[gaunt bear]

Okay, I’ve got something new I’d like to share from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Matthias: Brynjolf (did I get that right?), I’ve got a new business opportunity for you. The Inquisition and I have just killed a Hivernal Dragon (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hivernal||) that’s been plaguing Northern Tamriel since the early days of men living in Tamriel.

Maxwell: I know that because Matthias and I learned that, not only is this the same dragon that killed and devoured Ysgramor (||since Ysgramor’s soul climbed out of the dragon’s mouth, lauded us for valor, and departed for Sovngarde||), but it’s also the one that badly froze-burned Sotha Sil and splintered the original power base of High Rock (leading to its ‘find a hill, claim a crown’ tradition)

Matthias: Anyway, the opportunity for the Guild (||a.n. in my Skyrim, Matthias is a useful freelancer for the Guild, but not guildmaster himself||) is a share in the treasure hoard that the Hivernal has built, best described as ‘the hoard/loot of a thousand kings’ since it’s been raiding Skyrim, High Rock, and Morrowind for four ages. There’s also a “Hivernal feast” going on in roughly the same location as the beast’s lair, and Maven’s providing the mead.

[abstract arrow]

Hi, I have a silly question. Is the Sheogorath in Skyrim confirmed to be the Hero of Kvatch? If so, does that mean I’m expected to believe that the non-human or non-male characters I’ve created in Oblivion, like an Argonian, a Khajiit, or a female elf, eventually become an elderly, human-looking man?

[gaunt bear]

@abstract arrow I’ve a hunch that it’s a lot more complicated than that.

[proven moss]

There's no confirmation. It's always been speculation.

But daedra can take any shape they like. It makes sense for the new Sheogorath to appear in a form expected of them, rather than their original mortal form.

[gaunt bear]

That’s what I thought.

[fathom jewel]

This brings to mind a contradiction of sorts in ES4. The Hero of Kvatch saves all of Nirn from being absorbed into Dagon's Oblivion plane. He also breaks a repeating cycle of destruction cursing the Shivering Isles and gives an immortal being - Jygallag - to return permanently to existence. The reward for all of this? The PC is cursed to become a god of insanity.

This makes me think the Altmer, the Dunmer and the Dwemer have it all wrong. Nobody should have aspirations to join the Aedra, worship them or the Daedra, or simply turn their backs on all of them. The goal of both Man and Mer should be to destroy all of them.

[glacial scarab]

Sheogorath is ultimately the best Prince they could've chosen to take over a players body and delete them. You simply cannot tell if Sheo is out of character due to their unpredictable nature.

[slate shoal]

what would a theoretical tamriel look like if the extinct elves still remained? I have a personal theory and map for it, while trying to be accurate to history somewhat still

(it's essentially just less fantasy racism)

I feel like remnants of the Ayleids for example would be found in the Gold Coast, Gold Road and Northern Bosmer regions in a post Alessian Order kingdom state perhaps

[fathom jewel]

I believe the lore already supports your premise.

[slate shoal]

elaborate cuz I'm extremely stupid

[lone saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/sam-de-leve-the-uncommon-trust-sts-saving-throw-show-tempting-fate-gif-13888104

[slate shoal]

?

[lone saddle]

Just saying be nice to yourself 🙂

Just a silly gif, that's all.

[slate shoal]

oh ok

[fathom jewel]

LOL! Easy, bro. What I'm saying is that if I remember correctly the lore already explained that the aftermath of the Allesian war against the Ayleids resulted in a sizable number of them moving out of Cyrodiil to go to HF, HR and northern Valenwood, with some of the Ayleids who were still Aedra worshippers hanging on in the fringes of Cyrodiil (including the Gold Coast.) The ones who went to join their brethren in HF and HR eventually integrated into the local Altmer populations. The ones who went to north Valenwood merged over time with the Bosmer. Those who remained on the edges of Cyrodiil were eventually pushed out, presumably following the previous emigrants.

[slate shoal]

oh I mean without just race blending ofc

[fathom jewel]

You mean, what happened to the remnants/artifacts of Ayleid culture, such as their traditions, beliefs, art, literature and such?

[slate shoal]

what if they just never died off or race blended

[slate shoal]

concept map

[fathom jewel]

The current state of the lore indicates that they did, but that could be changed. If there's some Ayleids 'hiding out' somewhere - maybe on an island or some particularly isolated area in Tamriel - it could be mighty interesting. Maybe there's a colony of them in Black Marsh or Summerset. Maybe they borrowed a trick from the Psijics and piled onto their own island which they rendered invisible or bounced to a different place in Nirn.

[slate shoal]

this is just a theoretical "what if they weren't heavily genocided and still had large kingdoms / societies"

say with the Falmer

"What if they instead gathered in the West and rebuilt, and were able to push ysgramor to a stalemate and thusly had an uneasy situation or sumn"

[fathom jewel]

Oh, I see. Well, it would be pretty interesting. Just looking at the map you posted, it's evident that the Falmer/Snow Elves would be sweating bullets - they're completely boxed in by humans. The political relationship between the remaining Ayleid kingdom and Summerset would be a critical factor in the politics of the entire continent. The Dwemer would be a wild card - they actually have cities in HF and can create problems for absolutely everyone across the continent.

[glacial scarab]

Cyrod/Cyrodiil would be more bordergore given the locations of Ayleid ruins and the settlements of the non-Ayleids.

Falmer are hard to tell. They were in parts of Skyrim but we don't hear much for the Reach which had Dwemer or Falkreath which we only hear Nedes from and Ayleids importing Nedes from there but not from who.

[robust lintel]

With magic and it being a fantasy game, I'm surprised they don't just make artificial continents. Unless they already have..?

[slate shoal]

if they really wanted to bring snow elves back they could probably just say some went to atmora even with how dead it is up there

[robust lintel]

Snow elves never left, in fact they're practically everywhere. They are the snowflakes. Pointy ears = pointy snowflakes.

[fathom jewel]

That's an interesting idea. Maybe there's a part of Atmora which is volcanic, along with geysers (think of that valley in the East March of Skyrim.) That would make it potentially warmer and thus habitable. That would be a smart place for the Snow Elves to retreat.

[slate shoal]

indeed, and it would be ironic? considering where Nords originally hailed from

does that valley have a name anyway?

[fathom jewel]

There's no name that I can find online. It's simply the part of Eastmarch with the geysers and hot pools and such.

[slate shoal]

I saw a mod that said basically snow elves would just act like high elves cuz people can't tell or sum and thought that worked

[fathom jewel]

As far as I can tell, the Snow Elves are basically Altmer who like cold weather.

[slate shoal]

they have a different religion, archetecture, are effectively a different race imo

[slate shoal]

if Bethesda ever says they're just pale from exposure to the cold and they're still high elves id hate them forever

[raw grail]

Yeah, the Aalto

Alto Wine is named after it, because it's made with Jazbay Grapes found in the Aalto

From Warrior:

In north-central Skyrim, there is an area called The Aalto, which is of unique geographical interest. It is a dormant volcanic valley surrounded on all sides by glaciers, so the earth is hot from the volcano, but the constant water drizzle and air is frigid. A grape called Jazbay grows there comfortably, and everywhere else in Tamriel it withers and dies. The strange vineyard is a [sic] privately owned, and the wine produced from it is thus rare and extremely expensive. It is said that the Emperor needs the permission of the Imperial Council to have a glass of it once a year.

In order to harass the owner of The Aalto into selling his land cheap, Suoibud had to hire more than a few mercenaries. He had to hire the finest private army in Skyrim.

[slate shoal]

is it bad I went to every snow elf structure in the vale to study their architecture, including ice lights and their chandeliers, tables, benches

also the density of gold veins helps to imply the metal on their structures is likely weathered gold, and that their armor being improved by moonstone while it also appearing + malachite works perfectly for them being elves

on the armor it's likely a completely separate metal

I took 145 screenshots and videos of all snow elves, their facial and eye structure, their ears, the voices of one, the structural shapes, to get a feel for the similarities of their sister races

in the chantry the doors are large and with gaps, instead of being solid metal

the exterior doors are mottled metal, with square locks as in the shape of the bleh

Compared to the Altmer, Falmer appear to have a much squarer head shape with wider jaws and shorter, wider chins

more jagged like the Auri-El statue

from above the courtyard has an interesting shape, one could compare it to an eye maybe

most of their architecture seems to lack curves, outside of scenes like this

[slate shoal]

I think it's funny they have door locks like that

[raw grail]

Nah that's dope

[slate shoal]

the shape of the arches with the way the metal is used feels unique and beautiful, even on the railings

modded Skyrim cuz I wanted to be a snow elf LMAO but the rest is vanilla textures for accurate talk

[raw grail]

I think in-game studies like this are a lot of what's missing from the current lore-scene. Bethesda puts a lot of work into the stories that their environments tell, which even includes simple things like the shape or position of a structure, or the materials. Obviously there's only so far you can read into things because Bethesda doesn't do the most irl research and no one is infallible, but still

[raw grail]

Like I think this is really cool

[slate shoal]

not enough people talk about the frost fire lights

[raw grail]

Yeah I wasn't even really aware of those

[slate shoal]

it's interesting to see how adept the snow elves were at magic in random quiet glimpses, like they were extremely good at portal magic

[raw grail]

Tbf we don't know if this was a state of the art thing

[slate shoal]

if you use TCL you can move close and it looks like ice, in a pulsating pattern soenwhat

[raw grail]

Without access to other places which might or might not have wayshrines, it's hard to tell how common place they are

[slate shoal]

that and nobody talks about the intricate details they put into chandeliers like this

[raw grail]

Still - we don't really see anything like them in other cultures that I can think of

[slate shoal]

the neat straight squares and the open metal parts is something we see in a lot of their stuff

[raw grail]

They're very nice

Have you read the snow elf texts you can find in the forgotten vale?

[slate shoal]

Ayleids have similar archetecture and stuff, even their doors although the patterns in things are different

[raw grail]

They're really cool, very insightful. Could be up your alley, especially paired with your observations here ^-^

[slate shoal]

some of them but I need to uesp that again

[slate shoal]

I had a theory they're from the same Aldmer group but Falmer didn't like daedra and went north

hence the similar architecture and why both still venerated Auri El

I think it's neat to compare the facial structure of them to Altmer as well

[raw grail]

There's two main theories I've heard:
They're a splinter from Summerset based on religious similarities between Falmer and Altmer (heavy, heavy Aedra emphasis that only happened after the Psijic schism)
They're a splinter from Altmora. I forget if there's evidence toward this

[slate shoal]

obviously similar because they're just recolored, but even then you can get a feeling for how they feel different

the frost white flesh with hints of pink, the colors of their eyes, which I have a theory on

[slate shoal]

I would believe it's possible living snow elves could have eye colors ranging from pure white, to a light yellow in relationship to both their environment and cultural importance of sunlight

[slate shoal]

I prefer the Summerset theory as it would help explain why we can translate Falmer language using Ayleidoon

[raw grail]

I don't think that's that unusual

Ayleidoon is allegedly the closest the Aldmeris, or one of the closest anyway. Effectively all elven and many mannish languages descended from Aldmeris

[slate shoal]

I know some of the ivory armor is just reskinned ebony, but I still find the motif fascinating

[slate shoal]

makes sense

[slate shoal]

I feel like the metal part could be bronze? I'm unsure

[raw grail]

Altmora was elven about the same time as Aldmeris (the kingdom, not the continent) was a thing, too

I could see bronze. It's hard to know tho yeah

[slate shoal]

I'ma look that up

[raw grail]

What's the uhhh upgrade material?

[slate shoal]

moonstone! which makes sense considering the color of the armor

[raw grail]

That's what I figured

[slate shoal]

it clearly resembles moonstone with a snow elf motif to it, but it's referred to as Ivory armor in the creation kit I think?

which Ivory is the opposite of ebony in a lot of stuff, and it's a reskinned ebony set

what's the 6 sided shape, hexagon?

a good chunk of their structures have hexagon shapes to them, and the mottled door is still so fascinating

I like snow elves a little too much

[raw grail]

Wonder if it's referring to the color rather than the material...?

[slate shoal]

probably! ivory is just mammoth ivory in game so it's likely just a color and reference to how the set is made using ebony armor as a base

[slate shoal]

Thus we came to know that Moonstone is the key ingredient in Elven armor, and that salt water must be used to quench the hot metal."
I wonder if snow elf armor chose a different cooling process to allow for different colors hence why it retains the similar color to moonstone?

[slate shoal]

neat little thing when Gelebor says Auri El restored his dead priests to a spectral form ngl

[slate shoal]

I wonder if snow elf architecture is tall as though it were rising to Aetherius

also ESO helps to make it clearer that the architecture metal is likely gold

the chair looks as though it was chiseled from limestone imo

[dark palm]

I know it’s an out of lore source and everything but why do we never look into Dagon and Baal the irl gods to see the kind of archetypes they were going for with Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal

[proven moss]

Well first of all, the names really reference the pop culture and esoteric understanding of these deities rather than the actual deities themselves

Secondly, the references to Baal and Dagon seem meant to evoke the feelings associated with those names more than anything else.

There doesn't seem to be particular similarities other than to set an ominous tone

[upper field]

It's funny because Dagon's sphere isn't even that evil: destruction by itself isn't inherently evil and change can be seen as a redeeming trait.

[proven moss]

I've long had this idea for a Mehrunes Dagon quest where you help overthrow a tyrant

I think the games desperately need a bigger diversity of representation for the daedric princes.

Even though Mehrunes Dagon theoretically isn't all bad, the stories about them in games basically make them straight up malevolent

I think something similar could be done with Molag Bal

[glacial scarab]

Dagon's always been weird because everyone in game goes on and on about Destruction from Cultists, Daedra aligned with Dagon and Dagon themself. revolution and change is an afterthought as here's this big red daemon of Destruction coming yet again to kill everyone on Tamriel and destroy the planet.

One could even make a point that revolution and change is unreliable narrator given how their stuff is shown. Wouldn't be the first thing like that given the state of Cyrodiil.

[proven moss]

Interesting note, the original name of Molag Bal during Daggerfall's development was "Moloch Baal"

The moloch being a type of child sacrifice, mistaken as the name of another antagonistic biblical deity

Well, that's still debated. Some still think Moloch was an actual deity

But that definitely confirms that Bethesda was thinking about these biblical traditions when naming them

[proven moss]

Well it's the biblical tradition which frames these "gods" as evil and in Judeo-Christian culture they show up in esoteric traditions as demons

But from their native homelands there is nothing nefarious about them

Dagon was a patriarchal creator deity in Syria, akin to El (and indeed Yahweh). Baal was his son, a warrior and storm god whom battled and slew the sea monster Tannin (akin to Leviathan from the Bible)

[plain cosmos]

Considering Molach, or the Molech, appears in only Phoenician and Biblical writings, I doubt they were drawing from Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian.

Even then, Molech is never used as a proper noun in any surviving text. It's always a epithet, typically referring to a particular type of human sacrifice, the burning of a child's remains on a stone altar (note Israelite tradition did not prohibit human sacrifice, just particular TYPES, typically characterised as having foreign origins). The Molech in particular seems to have been Punic in origin.

At the time that Daggerfall was being written, however, it was generally believed by scholars (since this sort of thing was solidly Biblical Scholarship, with all the baggage that comes from that) that Molech/Molach was either another name for Baal (identified by Abrahamic religions as either synonymous with or a subordinate of the Devil) or a subordinate of Baal.

Likely, Molechs were preformed in Baal's name, as they were also preformed in El's and Yahweh's.

But the original intent of the name (Molach Baal) as well as the continued translation of Molag Bal (Stone Fire) makes it pretty clear that it's drawn from Abrahamic traditions.

If they were drawing from classical Mesopotamian sources, you wouldn't even expect to see Baal. That was a Canaanite name. You'd see Marduk, maybe Enlil.

Now, whether or not this was Conscious thing is an entirely seperate matter.

[proven moss]

Right! I always thought Stone Fire was meant to evoke "fire and brimstone" aka hell

And, I mean, just look at his original design:

Very evocative of the folkloric Devil and demons

[plain cosmos]

Indeed.

[proven moss]

Here's the concept art of him that is the source of the original name

[plain cosmos]

Yee olden days, when inclusions and ideas were interesting.

When the Devil figure actually shared more characteristics with the Abrahamic god, to create a more interesting idea.

[proven moss]

So, on the topic of Molag Bal, it would be a bit challenging to make a less blatantly evil quest for him than for, say, Mehrunes Dagon, given his sphere. Tamriel Rebuilt has a bit of an idea, where in their daedric "Key of Solomon"-esque text, Molag Bal can be summoned to instruct the conjurer on how to bind and control lesser daedra. I could see a quest where Bal helps you reestablish control over a group of daedra or undead that have rebelled against their master(s) and are causing chaos.
Another option, as an inverse to the Mehrunes Dagon quest, you could help local ruler quell a riot or rebellion. Or even get (force) a stubborn/rebellious vassal to pay homage to his lord. Something of that nature

In this way Molag Bal could be seen as helping restore order/peace. Even if the means the player takes are morally wrong/dubious or the rebels are justified

I mean, it's basically the devil with some traits shaved off (pitchfork becomes an axe, the tail loses its 'spade')
I suspect they went with green to distance the design a little further from the devil's classic red 🤷

It is very generic though, and not very good. I still prefer the Morrowind/Oblivion design. The horse-like dragon head reminds me of the horse demon in Buddhist hell

[plain cosmos]

Don't do my boy Pazuzu dirty like that.

Pazuzu is actually a fascinating entity in Akkadian mythology. While a demon king himself, and ruler of the infamous Lilu (who would morph into Incubi in later mythologies) he was also a protector against other, more dangerous demons..

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: Well, I’ve managed to find out why the Thalmor are dedicating so much energy and resources to finding the Giant’s Flame. After Yokuda sank, the last remaining ember of said flame was placed in ‘imperishable’ crystal (as the spirits say) and moved to an island that is never in the same place twice: The Vanishing Isle.

I’ve also managed to find out some more of what the flame was capable of, in an unexpected way.

Alduin was actually good once, clearing the mortal world of all civilizations that Divine Father felt had grown to prideful to continue living at the end of each Kalpa. But when the last king of the ancient giants burned him (really badly), it was the resulting pain that turned him evil.

[plain cosmos]

All the princes have plenty of room for fleshing out. Except for Ithelia, she's essentially a useless one trick Pony.

As for Pazuzu, yeah. He's never been a PLEASANT being in mythology. But he's also one that serves an important role.

[plain cosmos]

The benefits of centuries of mythopoea and syncretism. Things most writers don't even understand, let alone have the time or energy to invest in.

Plus, you know. gods not actually being real. That definitely helps in adding depth and diversity to things, because the only limits are imagination.

When you are dealing with a fictional setting, where gods ARE real, you'd naturally expect less diversity in concepts. Because you have an explicit entity to compare the concept against.

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: That’s a tenuous answer, at best. Remember, in the Fade, questions change the answer. Answers depend on whom you ask. But what I’ve been able to learn is that it’s somewhere in the sea.

It may be smaller, but the spirits imply that it’s still freakishly powerful.

As for why Alduin was once good, I only got this answer: Nothing is evil in the beginning.

[plain cosmos]

How do you know Alduin is bad?

One of the fundamental failures of Skyrim's writing is that it never establishes its main antagonists goals, let alone his motivations. It's impossible to actually judge Alduin as either good or bad without either.

[upper field]

I think it's less of him being bad and more of him being "drunk" over his power and position. Paarthurnax throws signs of this during the epilogue. It doesn't help that all Dragons (and the Dragonborn) are instinctively prideful and driven by power.

[plain cosmos]

See, it isn't that easy.

He comes back from being literally engaged in a war, and attacks the first settlement of the enemy he sees. Also, he is likely attracted to the Dragonborn, as Dragons can sense eachother, and he's looking for another Dragon.

Second, the Prophecy and everything around it says he is here to end the world.

But his single dialogue interaction with another Dragon indicates he may want to rule it.

Third, he literally chastises the PC for their lack of understanding. Understanding of what? It's never established.

Third, he goes to Sovwngarde to eat souls only after his defeat at The Throat of the World, and it's only ever indicated that he does this to recover strength. It's not until ESOs Elsweyr that it's suggested eating souls makes him big enough to eat the world.

Third, we are told he took something that belonged to Akatosh, though not exactly what, or why. It definitely wasn't attempting to rule the world, because that's only ever mentioned in a single tooltip and contradicts every other piece of Tamriel's history.

And we know that the first Dragonborn was born BEFORE the Dragon War, so couldn't have been punishment for his cruelty during it. So it seems Akatosh fired the first shot there.

And that's without even getting INTO the Aldudagga.

The entire Alduin plotline is an absolute mess. Is he the World Eater, or another Dragon? Is he here to end the world or conquer it? Is it his ego or did Akatosh fire the first shot?

I mean, hell. We don't even know if he's defeated.

It's not clear if Alduin is trying to take over the world, or end it. Or if he's trying to end it so he can take it over next time (since we have zero idea how or even if Kalpas even work). And without knowing what his goal IS, it would be impossible to judge WHY it is, even if we had more information than we do.

He's basically the Gargamel if TES.

[robust lintel]

Alduin shoulda been a cat.

[robust lintel]

A grumpy one

[plain cosmos]

Khajit is confused. Alduin is a cat.

[robust lintel]

Fresh out the pet semetary

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: you have to understand that the opinion that Alduin was “once good” belongs to several spirits of the Fade, and each one has a different point of view based on their concept. Spirits of positive things (like light, love, faith, etc.) view him as a greater threat than even Mehrunes Dagon; while spirits of negative things (lust, greed, hate, etc.) revere him as some kind of god-ancestor.

[copper folio]

During the time of ESO, Alduin is still definitely tumbling through time right?

[gaunt bear]

I believe so, but that doesn’t mean he’s able to influence mortals through their dreams, as * censored to prevent spoilers *.

https://tenor.com/view/math-zack-galifianakis-thinking-calculating-gif-5120792

So… the Dragon War happened near the end of the Merethic Era… and the events of ESO were between the events of the collapse of the Akaviri Potentate and the rise of Tiber Septim so… ((XY^2)^6, carry the two…) the answer is probably ‘yes’.

[copper folio]

Works for me.

[pastel sorrel]

Coldharbour certainly does, and actually technically is a more accurate depiction according to that description of Hell; brimstone is sulphur, which burns blue.

[plain cosmos]

Depends on the Hell. The modern depiction of Christian Hell is based more on the Zoroastrian Duzakh, combined with a single mention about a Lake of Fire in the New Testament. It was popularized in the 19th century by... One woman's book that I can't recall the name of currently... I'll have to dig it up.

The Renaissance and medical (and pop culture) depiction, however, derives mostly from Dante, with a bit of additions from late occultists like Dee and I believe Fludd.

Prior to Dante depictions of Hell were pretty similar to Jewish Sheol, Greco-Roman Hades, or the Egyptian Underworld. Basically just an endless holding pen for the dead.

And the FIRST mention of Hell was just a dark cavern populated by monsters, where the sun retreated to at night.

So, Coldharbour only really matches up with one (the most recent) version of Hell.

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: I wouldn’t be so quick to judge. The only time the “last ember of the Giant’s Flame” resurfaced at all was at the disaster at Red Mountain. The only thing that was mentioned about it was:

“… and when the Giant’s Flame was unleashed by the arrogant mage, one hundred thousand souls were reduced to less than ashes in a single heartbeat…”

But because of what happened at Red Mountain, that was all I could find.

[slate shoal]

Falmer did use brass!!!

[gaunt bear]

I suspected they did, before they were enslaved by the Dwemer.

[slate shoal]

makes sense tbh, would also fit their architecture though I suspect that's gold

so architecture uses brass/gold and their armor was moonstone/dark brown metal/dyed cloth

[desert shuttle]

Do the Altmer worship/revere Mara? I'm thinking up a restoration paladin type character right now

[slate shoal]

some do

[desert shuttle]

Thank you

[raw grail]

Dark brown metal could be brass I think?

Different brasses have different colors, ranging from gold-like to more orange to brown, iirc

[plain cosmos]

Brass tends to be more yellow. The scale typically goes, Copper-Red, Bronze-Brown, Brass-Dark Yellow, God-Bright Yellow. Though it can vary depending on impurities and other alloyed metals in the mix.

But apparently TES uses Corundum to make Steel, so their steel is actually a Ferric-Copper aloy that should for all intents and purposes be absolute rubbish.

[slate shoal]

yea I'm pretty sure it's brass

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got something funny I’d like to share from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction about Mara:

Matthias: Because of my awakening abilities as Dragonborn, I decided to find out more about the divines. What I found was not what I expected:

• Kynareth and Mara were both extra curvy, but both of them disdained clothes to various degrees: Kyne looked like a Forsworn Shamaness, while Mara’s dress was practically transparent, with only cloth bands beneath said dress providing modesty.

• Stendarr’s missing his right hand because Fen’Harel bit it off while he was being bound.

• Julianos’ owl, Wise-Wing, is actually highly articulate (I.e. he can talk for himself), and can get highly grouchy at times.

• Talos is both the most and least changed. While he resembles himself as history remembers Tiber Septim, it’s his memories that’s the most changed. He says he remembers being born in Atmora before its turn to ice, but he also remembers growing up on the Isles of Alcaire. The question he asked me to bring back is also not what I was expecting: “Was I ever a mortal?”

He also says that several of the atrocities he supposedly committed were actually committed by one of his underlings, a fellow by the name of “Danjo” (as Tiber Septim calls him), and he said that he didn’t give the orders for roughy 2/3rds of the things “Danjo” did.

[nova river]

is tiber septim really a god? according to my research, he took over the god of man role and I have this theory that the reason why the thalmor are trying to kill talos worship because killing the god of a thing kills it's worshippers, IE killing talos worship will cause humans to die out.

[heady wave]

i'm not well-versed but IIRC as far as the mainline games are concerned, yeah. it's not directly stated anywhere, but with The Arcturian Heresy in Morrowind, there was finally a Shezarrine's soul (Wulfharth/""The Original Underking"") to explain how Great Numidium could have such crazy power when, disregarding their prowess in their respective topics, Zurin Arctus and Septim were regular humans (I don't know about the theory of Septim and Arctus also being Shezarrines). those three being binded, i'm guessing the ascension couldn't be complete as the Underking (Arctus) was still "alive" until Daggerfall's ending, and the Godly Soul Gem™️ that powered Numidium was still bound and energized in Aetherius.

i think that's more personal research if anything so i would probably trust the ES Wikia and UESP over me. i know both of them pull their references from all types of books and the Imperial Library.

[nova river]

I am learning the lore after years of playing the games

for example my favorite culture racially is the wood elf's green pact

[heady wave]

that's the really weird law where Bosmer have to eat meat, right?

[nova river]

yes

see the forest spirit made a pact with the bosmer called the green pact which forbid them from consuming, destroying or using plants and that they HAVE to eat whatever meat from everything they kill

because the green pact demands they cant waste any meat from what they kill, most wood elves in valenwood eats people

I find this culture fascinating

if you dont mind the cannibalism

[raw grail]

Imo the hardest evidence that Talos is a god is from Martin Septim. When we need the blood of one of the Divines, basic Dragonborn blood doesn't seemingly work (or we'd just use Martin's), so we go and get it from Tiber Septim's breastplate. It works

[raw grail]

Meh on the ES Wikia

[raw grail]

Tiber ascended well before the events of Daggerfall in-universe

Arguably, theoretically, Daggerfall's events might have "solidified" Tiber's godhood in a sense, since Zurin and Wulfharth (two portions of the oversoul. an oversoul is multiple souls in one basically, one collective identity with individual identities within. ALMSIVI is also an oversoul for another example), but that's speculative and isn't when Talos became a god

The two main points we can find for his ascension are the speech which Heimskr quotes, and his death

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:From_The_Many-Headed_Talos

[raw grail]

I don't know what you mean when you say "to explain how Great Numidium could have such crazy power" unless you're referring to the usage of Wulfharth's soul in the Mantella

[raw grail]

Also, to resolve a secondary curiosity here, they give us three main reasons! (If the Altmeri Commentary on Talos is to be believed)

I genuinely hate the filter here. Imagine not being able to say games that appear in the world you're talking about - oh wait I don't have to

Why are you after Talos worshippers?
"It's a religious matter. The Thalmor do not recognize Talos as a god. He was only a man, and does not deserve to a place in our pantheon. The Empire has agreed to accept our beliefs, and its citizens have a responsibility to cease their heretical worship. You're awfully inquisitive, aren't you? I like that. Perhaps you'd care to solve a little problem I'm having?"
Anyways, this is the reason they present in game. Altmeri theology teaches than elves, and only elves, descended from gods, and therefore elves, and only elves, can ascend to godhood. Talos defies this, so his very existence is heretical. He wasn't the first (e.g. Arkay), but he was the biggest and most recent

It's probably a true reason, but isn't the full picture. To make sure we all have the whole thing on hand, the Altmeri Commentary on Talos says the following:

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum’s iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1. Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2. Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3. With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

I'll focus on these one by one
"1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane."
You may know this, but one of Lorkhan's epithets is 'the upstart who vanishes'. Lorkhan (and other cultural variations of the same god) is also the 'god of man,' much like you point out Talos is. Below are some excerpts from Varieties of Faith talking about that. You might also be able to notice some similarities to the Commentary on Talos, especially in Altmeri views:

Shezarr (God of Man): Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, whose importance suffers when Akatosh comes to the fore of Imperial (really, Alessian) religion. Shezarr was the spirit behind all human undertaking, especially against Aldmeri aggression. He is sometimes associated with the founding of the first Cyrodilic battlemages. In the present age of racial tolerance, Shezarr is all but forgotten.

Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan, who takes sides with Men after the creation of the world. Foreign gods (i.e., Elven ones) conspire against him and bring about his defeat, dooming him to the underworld. Atmoran myths depict him as a bloodthirsty warrior king who leads the Nords to victory over their Aldmeri oppressors time and again. Before his doom, Shor was the chief of the gods. Sometimes also called Children's God (see Orkey, above).

Lorkhan (The Missing God): This Creator-Trickster-Tester deity is in every Tamrielic mythic tradition. His most popular name is the Aldmeri 'Lorkhan', or Doom Drum. He convinced or contrived the Original Spirits to bring about the creation of the mortal plane, upsetting the status quo -- much like his father Padomay had introduced instability into the universe in the Beginning Place. After the world is materialized, Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada. He and his metaphysical placement in the 'scheme of things' is interpreted a variety of ways. In Morrowind, for example, he is a being related to the Psijiic Endeavor, a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them. To the High Elves, he is the most unholy of all higher powers, as he forever broke their connection to the spirit plane. In the legends, he is almost always an enemy of the Aldmer and, therefore, a hero of early Mankind.

So this kind of brings us to the second reason: Talos has taken the seat of the God of Man and Space, known in Altmeri religion as Lorkhan. Lorkhan is basically the devil to Altmer, so that's a pretty obvious reason to want to kill him. Perhaps they see this as the way to get around the fact that the Heart of Lorkhan is, effectively, not able to be destroyed. The rest of the commentary seems to corroborate, which leads us to our third reason

In Altmeri religion, Nirn is regarded as a jail, and Lorkhan (now Talos as well) their jailor. This is the "Wheel of Convention" that the Commentary mentions: the structure of Aurbis with Nirn at the center, enforcing linear time and such. This is also talked about in the next two sections in a way:

"Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated."
The cultural split that caused man and elf is the result of different ideologies: the Old Ehlnofey, who became elves, believed the world to be a prison. The Wandering Ehlnofey, who became men, believed the world to be a wonderful, if terrible, place to explore, and live in, and experience. This excerpt also alludes again to this 'god of man' idea. I think you're on the right track when you say they want to kill both man and the god of man. Killing one without the other probably wouldn't solve the issue, since the god of man lives on through men, at which point we're stuck in the same old cycle

[raw grail]

3. With Talos and Songs of Talos removed, the Dragon [that is, Auri-El, god of Time, who arranged Convention] will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once traveled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.
   This is saying almost exactly what I did earlier, in the first part of this message. Nirn, linear time, and mortality are a prison, both for them and Auri-El. Free Time and they will be free themselves, which can (allegedly) be done by killing the god of man and his progeny

Holy moly, that was a lot more than I realized

[gaunt bear]

Well, that’s all fine and dandy about Tiber Septim and all, but what about the others I mentioned (Kynareth, Mara, Julianos, and Stendarr)?

While we’re on the subject, since (in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction) Thedas and Mundus got “hooked together”, the Thalmor will have to deal with Andraste as well as Talos, and that won’t be easy with Elves in Thedas being second-class citizens, at best.

[raw grail]

I don't know enough about your fanfic or dragon age to have commentary on their interactions, etc

[gaunt bear]

I was referring to this: #elder-scrolls-lore message

It’s what (I think, at least) started the above debate on Talos.

[raw grail]

I know, but it contains elements of your fanfic which don't exist in TES so it's hard to comment. That's why I focused on Kaydin's message, which was firmly seated in, exclusively, TES

[gaunt bear]

I solely intended it for lore-based fun, nothing else. So, just make something up.

[raw grail]

I generally don't. I see the appeal of it and I think it's cool you do, but I don't engage with lore that way usually

I engage with lore through dialogue, books, etc, and interpretations thereof

[raw grail]

To just give some thoughts:

• Is this Kyne and Mara or Kynareth and Mara? That vastly changes how I think of it
• The Fenrir and Tyr inspiration is dope. Have you looked into Stuhn and Tsun, or their relationship to Trinimac? You might find them interesting
• That's just cool

[gaunt bear]

• Kyne is the more “primitive” version, so to speak; Kynareth is more modern.

• I thought it was good.

• Thank you.

Matthias: Some more Information on the gods I found:

• Zenithar’s body is actually half gold!!! He says that it’s a reminder of the dangers of the sin of greed.

• Arkay is another “half-and-half” god: the right half of his body is that of a white-haired old man, while the left half is similar to that of a Drauger. He blames the Elves making such a fuss over death for his “deterioration”.

• Akatosh is Auriel, but not in the conventional way. According to him, Auriel was dethroned and killed by his eldest son, Elgar’nan, whom was tricked and imprisoned by Fen’Harel and Dumat working together. However, it wasn’t the end of Auriel because he was reborn as Elgar’nan’s son, Akatosh, and was able to avenge both his previous form’s death and his father’s betrayal. When I asked him why this was, he simply replied that ‘all endings are merely beginnings waiting to be born’.

I’m still trying to find out about Auriel and Lorkhan, but I’m not having much luck. I’ll let you know when I find something.

[raw grail]

Why is greed a sin that Zenithar is worried about?

That sounds more like a Stendarr thing if anything

[plain cosmos]

Because Zenithar is a capitalist who wants the Working Class to not hoard wealth at the expense of the Capital Class.

[raw grail]

Sounds like the Capital Class is being greedy

[plain cosmos]

Because something something, Nobles invest Drakes into the economy.

[raw grail]

Imo Zenithar is about sowing the results of your labor and toil

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: When I asked Zenithar about this, he gave me a mute “I’d rather not talk about it.”.

[raw grail]

Collecting wealth doesn't seem to go against that

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: But my best guess is that it has to do with him being half-gold.

[raw grail]

Stendarr is about charity, karma, etc

[plain cosmos]

I feel like Zenithar would actually be very pro-Crassius. So, full on 'Greed is good for the economy' sorts stuff.

[raw grail]

I wouldn't be surprised ngl

[plain cosmos]

But, Tamriel doesn't actually HAVE an economy, as far as the lore goes... So

If you actually look at the few mentions of commerce and currency, it's absolute nonsense and makes zero sense. So who knows, maybe currency only works because Zenithar's divine power makes it work, and his anti-greed stance is just because it takes more work.

[raw grail]

xD

More toil is good for (my) business

[plain cosmos]

Zenithar: Stop being greedy, because it means I have to spend more time balancing the spread sheet!

Tamriel's economy is actually driven by Zenithar magically placing coins in random barrels to maintain supply circulation.

[nova river]

is it wrong of me that I think the cannibalism that happens from the green pact isnt that bad a thing >.>

*plays a bosmer so the quest with namira doesnt make sense since you have to pay us not to eat each other

[raw grail]

Nah I kinda agree tbh

[nova river]

dont get me wrong, being food definitely is not something I would willingly be, but the green pact makes it so that they have to eat what they kill so there is no killing for sport or fun

makes them think twice about killing willy nilly

[raw grail]

The biggest actual harmful issue with cannibalism irl is (especially) nervous tissue, and whatever cultural perspective there is as far as disturbing bodies goes. Some cultures, iirc, eat their deceased family etc as a way to pay respect to the dead and stuff like that. For Bosmer it's a way to respect the Green, avoid being wasteful, and to some extent dissuade overkilling since yeah what you said

I don't know if the nervous tissue thing is true in TES but even assuming it is i don't know how many Bosmer are eating brains? Is that a thing?

[nova river]

yea exactly. I am right now trying to do a playthrough of skyrim adhering to the green pact

[raw grail]

It is worth noting that the green pact technically does not forbid eating plants or using plants (although some adherents still follow it to that extent), just harming plants

Picking a fallen apple up and eating it is 👌 in fact, it's spreading the seeds, potentially. But picking it from the tree is apparently a violation of the pact

[nova river]

yea

I like bosmeri culture I am just now getting into the TES lore and I am finding the bosmer culture fascinating

infact I am thinking about being a bosmer werewolf

would harvesting alchemy ingrediants count as a violation of the green pact?

[proven moss]

Depends on your interpretation of the lore. The earliest text suggest they can't use plants for building or eating, so that would include mixing them into a potion and drinking it.
However, later lore from TES:O basically says the Green Pact only applies in Valenwood, I think.

[nova river]

yea they can use wood and plants imported from other provinces

so there is no need to adhere to the green pact outside of valenwood

[agile herald]

I haven't played ESO since around the oblivion city expansion has there been any notable lore revelations or reveals? Is eso content still considered canon canon? (The only thing I've seen since is the dwemer resonance and return in the one eso expansion)

[balmy salmon]

Here's some stuff I can think of:

-Dratha made a deal with a Dremora for immortality because she had a vision of the future and wanted to be there to help the Nerevarine. As part of the deal, the Dremora promised that it'd return in the guise of a mortal man to take her soul to Coldharbour, resulting in why she's so misandrist- she's afraid that any mortal man could be the Dremora in disguise, come to collect its payment.

-Barilzar was a disciple of Sotha Sil back when he was alive. He played a role in the questline of the Vvardenfell expansion and is rewarded by Vivec with some gemstones containing divine energy, which is implied (but not confirmed) to be what enabled him to create the Mazed Band.

-There's a Blackreach cavern underneath Haafingar, and another one beneath The Reach. Overall, there was a lot of cool stuff in ESO's Skyrim that wasn't in TES V's Skyrim.

-The Falmer are implied to have been the reason that Atmora froze over, as payback for the Nords wiping them out.

-There exists an unaligned Plane of Oblivion called Fargrave, where humans and Daedra reside, akin to D&D's Sigil.

-Miraak attempted to escape Apocrypha by corrupting some of the Black Books so that when read by someone on Nirn, it'd summon him there.

-There exists another Daedra Prince, Ithelia, whose sphere is fate and destiny, and is connected to the player characters. Hermaeus Mora considered her a threat and erased all knowledge of her existence. It's also revealed that Fargrave was originally part of her plane.

[agile herald]

Thank You, I hope ES6 comes out before I'm dead lol wanted to try and catch up on at least some notable lore

[balmy salmon]

My favorite ESO piece of lore has to be them making TES V's "get launched miles when killed by a giant's attack" bug canon.

Behold the greatest piece of ESO lore https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:All_About_Giants

[agile herald]

Incredible, he has a point where are the giantess's at Todd?

[nova river]

dont you know?

females arent that different from men

like dwarves

befriending giants is possible?!

I want a giant friend

[agile herald]

I knew that but it would be nice to have visual differences

Giants aren't entirely hostile considering the farmer in skyrim that gives a cow as an offering

[balmy salmon]

There are a few female giants in ESO.

[nova river]

so does anyone have any corpses that need eaten disposed of?

here is a question: if an elf eats a human it isnt cannibalism right?

[agile herald]

Are elves human? 😏

[nova river]

nope so I can eat people

[raw grail]

Faendal is also chopping wood in Skyrim

[raw grail]

Debatable

Probably an Imperial-minded scholar would say 'it is'. Probably an Altmer-minded scholar would say 'it isn't'. I doubt a Bosmer would care much either way

[proven moss]

I don't assume all Wood Elves follow the Pact. We wood need some kind of evidence that Faendal does.

[raw grail]

I'm moreso saying that he demonstrates that the consequences of the Pact don't apply outside of Valenwood

I don't believe whether a particular Bosmer follows the pact personally and religiously makes them exempt from its terms since it's what gave them their shape and maintains their shape

Although I do think it's more of a 'follow in spirit' than necessarily 'follow to the t' and that might be part of why different Bosmer seem to have slightly different terms

Like w the meat mandate for instance

The Green Pact, the Spinners say, contains its own punishment for those who turn their back on it. Such apostates become the Accursed of Y'ffre, doomed to haunt lost corners of the Green until they find a way to redeem themselves.

- Tomb of Apostates loading screen

Relevant source:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Why_We_Farm

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Rogue_Elements

TFW the lore channel limits sending sources

[proven moss]

🤔 That shows it's a choice that can be made though. Bosmer living outside Valenwood probably feel very little pressure to follow it.

[raw grail]

It can be, I'm just saying that the Green doesn't respond to Bosmer outside of the Green because it isn't a tenet of the Pact

Which has been demonstrated at least as early as Skyrim, and was simply elaborated on and explained in ESO

The Green still reacts to non-Pact Bosmer in Valenwood, but not outside

[proven moss]

Sure. Im just a grump in that regard. I've never trusted the later assertion it only applies in Valenwood. The gods care about arbitrary political borders? Seems silly.

[raw grail]

Well, Valenwood plants that were grown outside of Valenwood actually also count

It's probably less about Valenwood as a political distinction and more about the Green as a mythical distinction

Either way, it demonstrably reacts in what we call Valenwood, and not outside of what we call Valenwood, although Pact Bosmer themselves still sometimes react to things outside of Valenwood as well

Perhaps it's related to Green-Sap?

idrk

[proven moss]

Maybe. Green Sap has never wandered further field to my knowledge

[raw grail]

Not that I'm aware of either

I'd bet that one forest that's growing in gold road counts

I forgot what it's called somehow...

[proven moss]

How would they keep track of seeds traveling across the border, getting carried by animals, wind, water, etc, in this case? It seems it would be safer to let the other races do the harvesting, even if you were outside Valenwood proper. At least in Elsweyr, Cyrodiil, and Summerset. Maybe Skyrim is considered far enough away, and the climate different enough, that the risk is negligible for elves like Faendel

[plain cosmos]

Ah, Bosmer Green Pact stuff.

https://tenor.com/view/bottom-gas-richie-i-am-calm-panic-gif-25887553

[raw grail]

I don't know! Hold on I'll grab the sauce. The risk of breaking the Pact outside of Valenwood is incredibly minimal tho, yes

I think it'd be interesting if Bosmer were more cautious the closer they are to Valenwood because of increased chances of a native plant of Valenwood being around

That'd be a cool way to show a consequence of the Pact outside of Valenwood

What's the Green Pact you mentioned?
"Sort of a vow. A promise to the Green, that we'd protect it from harm and in return it would be our home. Now I know we're not in Valenwood, but those seeds are of the Green, and the idea of harming them makes me sick to the core."
It's that serious?
"Better believe it. Any Bosmer who so much as plucks a petal from the Green is doomed to the Ooze, song left unsung forever after. Like you never were. Even if you don't think much of yourself, there's something to fear in that."
But me poisoning the stranglers is fine?
"For you, sure. It's not your pact. For me? I'm hoping so. I'm supposed to protect the Green, but we're a long ways from there. Y'ffre forgive me if I'm wrong."

Hmmm that's not so hard as I thought

Aha I missed a part

But still

If that's true, why haven't you killed off the stranglers?
"Oh, killing them's not the hard part. I brewed a poison that'll choke their roots until they're brown in the fronds. Trouble is, can't think of a way to use it without breaking the Green Pact. It's a real moral quandary."

[agile herald]

Cyrodil used to be a jungle could that be a possible connection to the green sap and pact itself?

[gaunt bear]

About a while back, I asked a question I didn’t get an answer for, so I’m asking it again: if House Hlaalu offers aid to the Inquisition, should they accept it?

[proven moss]

Inquisition?

[topaz dome]

Makubro is writing fan fiction that combines Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age lore.

[proven moss]

Oh, right, I remember

[agile herald]

Making a Elderscrolls/Inquistion Crossover is pretty much all up to personal headcanon as the inquistion only makes decisions from the inquistor player character and vice versa for any Elderscrolls factions that the player of any Elderscrolls is capable of leading the question is up to the reader to decide the answer to as anything can happen in fiction

[gaunt bear]

I’m just asking to double-check.

[nova river]

Hello my fellow mortals

[slate shoal]

HURRAY this concept art also solidifies the metal used by snow elves for architecture!!! it's Brass!!!

And I believe the stone they used was probably limestone lmao

this isn't elder scrolls lol

[proven moss]

Man, I really liked the Tibetan-esque Falmer concept

Shame Dawnguard didn't really deliver on that

[nova river]

dawnguard delivered on vampires!

besides I always side with the dawnguard. I like crossbows too much to side with emo harkon and his motley group of theater kids

[agile herald]

They sort of did considering the seclusion of the Vale and the Monastery dont really know what else they could have done

[slate shoal]

I like what they did

[nova river]

how come the falmer have white souls?

shouldnt they have black souls?

[proven moss]

So as I see it there's three potential answers here.

1. Falmer have white souls for gameplay reasons (they're a common dungeon enemy) and don't actually possess them in the TES universe.
2. When Falmer "devolved" into their current state, their souls became more animal-like along with them.
3. The designations of white souls and black souls is just a legal or taboo one. There's no real difference. It's okay to kill Falmer so they have white souls.

[nova river]

I think the second answer is more likely

[nova river]

I love ulfric's I fight speech

[nova river]

I think the second answer is most likely and if souls can devolve like that it would explain how come alduin can eat the dead and put dragon souls into dragons because he forced them to evolve

[agile herald]

Best Dialogue in the game

[proven moss]

I'm not sure I follow. What does devolving souls have to do with eating them and putting them back into bodies?

[nova river]

it proves souls can evolve which means through alduin, alduin can put dragon souls into dragons by eating dead souls and forcing them to evolve into dragon souls

anyway just a thought

[plain cosmos]

Answer 1 is most likely the correct one.

The Black-White soul divisions in game are mostly arbitrary, and based on how the game tracks entities. They have tried to explain it in-universe with racist magic (Galerion proposes using spells that select against the most prominent civilised races, but exclude all others for economic reasons) but it is, at its core, a gameplay dynamic which makes no real sense in lore.

[proven moss]

This can be supported by the fact that virtually all undead (save vampires) have white souls. Since they're usually dead people, you'd expect them to have black souls.
Likewise, daedra all have white souls except for NPC variants, like Dremora.
The games distinguish white and black souls by whether the actor is a creature or an NPC

[plain cosmos]

And the best in-universe explanation we have for this, is literally institutional racism

[proven moss]

I like the third explanation as an in-universe one. Institutions like the Mage's Guild don't want to create a moral hazard by incentivizing mages to use human souls in enchanting. So if it's not strictly illegal it's at least taboo to do so. Hence the classification. This is perhaps supported by the name, with black soul gems being akin to "black market souls."

But there are problems with this if we take gameplay seriously (like dremora having them)

And there's definitely an argument here that soul size (black souls are always the largest) has something to do with sapience and that's the reason for the division

In short, soul lore is a mess. Please never ask about it again. 😅

Or I'll banish you to the Waters of Oblivion.

[plain cosmos]

That's the institutional racism part.

In ESO, Galerion establishes a mandate to spread the use of Soul-Trap spells specifically designed to exclude the major races for ethical reasons.

Of course, we know that the minor races are just as capable of intelligent thought as the Major ones, so this distinction is definitionally racist. They're allowing minority groups to be soul trapped because they are viewed as Lesser.

It ALSO raises serious questions about how Spells and Magic work, but the actual magical lore of TES is such a jumbled mess it makes the soul lore look academic.

[balmy salmon]

It gets weirder when we remember that Azura's Star follows the black/white rule and the entire plot of Skyrim's Azura quest was that someone wanted to modify it to hold black souls.

And then there's what Serana said about Black Soul Gems sending their occupants to the Soul Cairn.

[plain cosmos]

Unless it's Vivec or Almalexia anyway. In which case Azura's Star is the ONLY Soul Gem large enough to hold them.

[balmy salmon]

I wouldn't be surprised if she made a special exception for them.

[proven moss]

Well with stuff like goblins it's more than mere institutional racism at that point. 😅 But I understand what you're saying.

[nova river]

I just like using bandits in my enchantments

honestly I still wanna send bandits to the soul cairn

is that wrong of me?

yamarz was the soul I used to enchant my sword with fiery soultrap

[proven moss]

deterring banditry by promising an eon of boredom
You're doing Zenithar's work 🙏

[nova river]

Thank you

[agile herald]

Has there been any instances of speaking with Aedra? Seems like you only ever speak to Deadric gods sure Aedra give you benefits for praying to them but I can't recall any time where you have a conversation

[proven moss]

We've spoken with their avatars.

How directly that means speaking with the god is up to your personal interpretation

[agile herald]

Which instances in particular? I'm just curious

[mossy moss]

there's a handful in Morrowind:

Wulf, avatar of Tiber Septim
Ama Nim, avatar of Mara
Jon Hawker, avatar of Zenithar

[gaunt bear]

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but what would the Divines think of the Inquisition, since it technically operates outside of the authorities (religious, political, or otherwise) in order to ‘restore order to a world gone mad’?

[nova river]

god I love the skyrim tales channel

jesper is my favorite guard

[agile herald]

Thank You

[slate shoal]

I asked the concept artist of the Snow Elf architecture what stone was likely used, they told me they were inspired by Warhammer Elven marble and honestly I can see it!!! but they also told me it's likely to be a type of granite as well (image 2) and honestly I can see it

[plain cosmos]

Ooooh, don't even get me started.

[slate shoal]

get started vro

my autism is both Warhammer AND the elder scrolls so I mentally love all the lore

[plain cosmos]

My honest opinions on many things, especially the visual stylings of the last 20 years of TES, would get me in a lot of trouble around here.

Sufficed to say, Warhammer looks better on every single way, and Bethesda could seriously stand to rip off Warhammer (which has already ripped off basically everyone else anyway).

[slate shoal]

they just need to quit doing the scaled down stuff as much imo

anyways I wonder what tibetan inspired snow elf clothes would look like

[plain cosmos]

I think there is a lot that they need to change.

Which is a shame, because the concept art for Skyrim was great. Somewhere along the line, it lost all its Conan, Mythic and Mystical elements, and just became Vikings punching Dragons.

But it's reflective of a chronic artistic problem I have with basically every TES game since Morrowind.

Its just... Not even boring. It's Safe. TES hasn't had anything visually striking, unique, or bold. In the misguided attempt to be grounded, it's had all the style and visual interest slowly strangled out of it.

The most glaring example of this, which reflects the problem most clearly, is ESOs Altmer.

Sure, you can't build homes out of poetry (not with that attitude, anyway) but they should at least INSPIRE it.

And calling what we got instead 'Forgettable' would be generous..

Which isn't to say that the artists themselves were bad with what they did. The execution is good, but whoever was giving the art direction gave those poor artists very, very souless direction.

It's symptomatic of a wider problem with the franchise since Oblivion though. It permeates the lore, the art, and the ideas behind them.

They're just... Not thought provoking, not well thought out, and incredibly bland.

Aaand I've already said way more than I should have.

[agile herald]

I agree with your points

[slate shoal]

snow elves r wonderful wawa

[nova river]

I just wanna play a maomer

cause I like sea elves

my pirate in dnd was a sea elf pirate

but everyone's obsessed with snow elves now. counted 2 mods on xbox which played sea elves and over 200 which played as snow elves

not that I am complaining, if you enjoy being a snow elf go nuts

I play primarily on the switch so no mods for me

[plain cosmos]

I'd settle just for the Elves we have already to have anything interesting about them. The Bosmer went from interesting, to generic Wood Elves, and the Altmer had every drop of artistry sucked out of them.

[balmy salmon]

On the previous topic about souls, I just remembered a rather important in-universe detail: the nature of souls is as difficult subject to study because those who delve too deeply into it tend to vanish without a trace.

[nova river]

Fun.

[nova river]

but we eat people how is that generic?

[slate shoal]

brass and moonstone armor

[uncut hatch]

Dunmer stay winning

[plain cosmos]

They're the only ones who have gotten meaningful, and interesting, development.

[plain cosmos]

Rarely, apparently. And the Green Pact has no actual power beyond social enforcement, and their architecture is just big standard art nouveau wood elf stuff, there's no grounding for their Animal Friendship powers...

It's just all so dreadfully boring and generic, quirky little wood Elves to could find in any other setting, and only give lip service to the interesting aspects of their concept.

I mean, hell. ESO goes so far as to criticise the BAD GUYS for actually following the 'Eat the dead' aspect of the Meat Mandate

[nova river]

well I think the green pact is an interesting thing

it forces them to figure out how to deal with problems without killing them

[plain cosmos]

Like it's some bland religious observance like Lent, instead of the terms of a literal divine pact.

[nova river]

so your saying there is no repercussions for breaking the pact?

I thought the lore said that those who break the pact become unmade?

course no offense to bethesda but I guess that they cant make a race with some sort of repercussion for breaking their custom

[plain cosmos]

The quest Pact Advocate directly involves breaking the pact. And... Well, it's a big wet dud.

Consuming and using plants for years does nothing. It's only when a specific plant is picked by a Khajiit that anything happens. And that plant just so happens to be in a Spriggan grove.

So... It's just Spriggans doing Spriggan things and the Spinners INTERPRET that as the Pact.

You know, like a Religion, making religious interpretations, rather than a literal divine contract.

[nova river]

neat

so I guess I can go make nightshade/death bell poison health poisons

[plain cosmos]

Absolutely, because the Pact does nothing.

Which could have been an interesting idea to explore in and of its self, but... It never is.

Explored, I mean. It's clearly established for anyone who doesn't just take what the Spinners say at face value, but it's never addressed, expanded on, or explored in any meaningful way.

The entire Green Pact is just silly superstition that you are expected to take seriously.

[nova river]

it also says for wood elf that there is a ritual which allows them to shapeshift back into their primordial self and causes them to attack their enemies and eat themselves and the enemies in a cannibalistic orgy

the wild hunt is the name of the ritual

[plain cosmos]

Another soggy dud in ESO. Which i can somewhat forgive due to technical limitations, but I mean... At least have them transform into random monster models. Which they did not.

[nova river]

I used to play ESO, then I took an arrow to the knee actually I need to be able to pause a game to tend to elderly mother is why I stopped playing online games

durn

anyway I still like wood elves

better then the thalmor

anyway off to go wrap my switch lite in aluminium foil for the end of the world

[plain cosmos]

Don't get me wrong, ESO is still an engaging game that has some great stories, likable characters, and some great lore.

[nova river]

I liked eso quite a bit

then again I liked fallout 76 before they added actual npcs in it

again though, aging parents means I cant play online games as much as I like

[plain cosmos]

And while better than either Oblivion, or Skyrim in the lore category, it still falls to the same ongoing pattern of generic trend chasing and unwillingness to really push ideas and do novel things.

[nova river]

I just dont know which faction or class to be in eso

and I am absolutely convinced the aldmeri dominion are bad guys because they kill and eat argonian unhatched eggs

[plain cosmos]

It's more a Trend Chaser or Nostalgia Farm than thoughtful world building, and while it has bright spots, it's largely just keep up the trend of Blandification of the setting that's been ongoing since Oblivion.

[nova river]

durn

[plain cosmos]

And don't get me started in Ithelia.

To quote William Boimler, the Multiverse is just lazy remixes.

Now, that's no reason not to engage with it, and try for yourself. Lots of people love the lore ESO has included.

My exit from the wider lore community several months ago was at least in part due to the fact I was increasingly being the grouchy old man who didn't like the direction.

If Harry Potter had taught me anything, it's that a lot of people LIKE what I consider bland, poorly written schlock..

But, I'm also not going to just stifle criticism, because they create an echo chamber of praise.

[agile herald]

Wasn't impressed with the depictions of the argonians in eso based on the lore of black marsh from before the games release but the hist stuff was good

[plain cosmos]

I think it's telling that the Argonians and Khajiit are the absolute best in ESO. Clearly the creative decision makers let the team be more bold with the 'Beast' races.

Though I still think they could have gone even further, I accept that there were some limitations in time investment for the initial release.

I think Black Marsh is visually about as inspiring as a mud puddle though. The Mesoamerixan stylings of the Xanmeers is great, but the swamp is about as colourful as a toilet bowl after Tacco Tuesday. Especially given the concept art, it's like someone higher up said 'No, no colours allowed'.

[nova river]

no colours, bad eso

hmm I am wandering about rejoining eso. I can play when I am on the generator at night

[agile herald]

I wish Black Marsh was depicted as the dangerous Unknown Marshy Jungle it was described as in one of the lore books considering its rare for non argonians to even step foot into black Marsh it should've been a mystical unknown place there are a couple of nice areas though

I never did the non Ebonhart Pact stuff cause I didn't want to so I didn't get around to seeing everything but I thought the City in Valenwood was done alright although Alinor definitely feels too generic high fantasy from what I'd seen

Definitely would like them to embrace the more whimsical and nonsensical side of the lore more often

[plain cosmos]

Blackmarsh would have been a fantastic place to pull a Morrowind-Meets-Blackreach visual aesthetics. With giant fungus, phosphorescent plants, exotic and colourful ferns and flora inspired by extinct plants from like... The Cretaceous.

Instead, it's just a generic swamp that has no defining character outside of the Xanmeers.

[agile herald]

Exactly what I was thinking I was gonna type blackreach but felt it may have been too much to describe especially the northern region the vanilla blackmarsh area is in

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. And like... Swamps and wetlands are some of the most vibrant, life filled places on earth..

So WHY does everyone always make them BROWN

[agile herald]

I'd be open to more Black Marsh Lore it's the most mysterious unknown area in the series bar akavir

I wonder if we'll ever see the akaviri races depicted in a game at all with more lore to accompany it there sure are a ton of interesting cultures and designs to pull from for monkeymen and snow demons

[plain cosmos]

I've long been against seeing Akavir, or the Maormer, or other places. Not because I don't like them or am not curious, but because I think the general direction of the art and lore has been so uninspiring I would rather wait to see them until someone with a little panache is the one directing them...

But like... The concept art of Blackmarsh in ESO had reds and oranges and blues and greens.

And what did we actually get? Brown.

The same can be said for Skyrim's concept art. It was rugged and larger than life, with a real sense of the contrast between the megalithic past and the cost present, as well as the frozen mountains and the warm valleys.

Towering monoliths rising like they were carved from whole mountains, low clouds obscuring entire valleys, and a hearty people clinging to the fringes of civilisation.

And what did we get in game? Parody Vikings.

So there's clearly a disconnect somewhere between the Concept, and the Execution, where all the soul and creativity is being sucked out.

[agile herald]

I think you were the one who had mentioned about Skyrim having more Conan elements in the concept art and man if that was the sort of game we would have gotten with accompanying lore would have been fantastic

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. At least, that's the vibe I get from the concept art. Whether it was intentional or not is unknown, since I don't know the concept artists and can ask about their inspiration

[agile herald]

I really hope the lore we get with Elderscrolls 6 is going to be good i don't know if I can handle another Eso I wasn't impressed with the lore elements of eso at all I love this series for its uniqueness and the lore really shines brighter than most other generic fantasy rpgs

[plain cosmos]

I found ESO, in general, to be better than either Skyrim or Oblivion. WAY better than Oblivion.

But on the whole of its lifespan, and reflecting, I still found more that I disliked than I liked.

[balmy salmon]

A weird part of me wants a Black Marsh game where instead of the usual playable races, you can only play as amphibious races like Argonians, Sload, Grummites, and Dreugh.

[plain cosmos]

I wouldn't say that's a weird part. That sounds like an adventurous part.

And TES needs more adventurous minds.

[agile herald]

I think if we get a black Marsh game it should be centered around the plague that wiped out the lilimoths (can't remember how that's spelled) this would fit perfectly with your idea here and I like that idea

[plain cosmos]

But like, tell me this doesn't scream Conan to you.

Alright, too fast I guess.

[agile herald]

I saw, I agree it is very conan esque

[plain cosmos]

Fine, Dyno! I'll leave my point hanging!

[agile herald]

There was concept art I had seen of solitude and man that would have looked great in game it's too bad about limitations

[plain cosmos]

Point being, Conan has a very strong vibe of the collapse of civilisation and the ruins of the old powers. And that would have been a great vibe for Skyrim. The strong savage living in the shadows of the ruins of the ancient decadence.

[nova river]

I liked skyrim

course I dont know what to look for lore wise, other then intense cold

[agile herald]

Always thought it was strange we got Cyrodil as it is and not the jungle it was described as before

[plain cosmos]

So did I. But it was a shadow of what it COULD have been with better art direction.

[nova river]

hmm should I wrap my xbox in aluminium foil for the end of the world and play cloud gaming?

[plain cosmos]

If the world ends, you're not going to have power to play it anyway.

[nova river]

I live entirely off grid

[plain cosmos]

The best entertainment for the apocalypse are books, IMO.

[nova river]

IE we rely on solar power and the setup is protected from emps

so I will have power.

[plain cosmos]

Then wrapping it up shouldn't be necessary anyway.

Just don't turn it on and it'll be fine. If it isn't, well your entire closed grid is going to be fried too.

[nova river]

thank you terical

[plain cosmos]

No worries.

[nova river]

you are the best

[plain cosmos]

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I'm a grumpy old grognard who spends most of the time on here complaining.

Plus side, spending less time on r/TESLore has given me a lot more time to paint. Finally catching up on my pile of shame.

[nova river]

I am as artistically talented as a brick

[verbal junco]

who's the master of lore here

[plain cosmos]

Bold of you to think anyone has such authority here.

It's never even been clear if Bethesda has a lore master themselves.

[agile herald]

Zenimax has a lore team apparently for Eso but wasn't kirkbride the loremaster for the series before he retired?

[plain cosmos]

Nah, the approach Bethesda takes has always been more of an 'all hands on deck' sort of thing.

As far as we have been informed, anyway. Bethesda tends to be very tight lipped about internal organisation.

[agile herald]

I know Kirkbride wrote a lot of the lore wish he was still around he is the reason early elderscrolls is so much more unique and exciting to today

[plain cosmos]

He contributed a lot at one point, yes. But so did Kurt Kuhlmann and a few others, so he can't be given full credit.

As far as Unique goes though... Well... That hasn't been a TES thing since the early 2000s.

Which I think goes a long way to show that these individuals were NOT what we would call a Loremaster, and ultimately had minimal pull in the direction of the lore and setting.

Design by committee has always seemed to be Bethesda's modus operandi in terms of the Elder Scrolls as a setting.

[agile herald]

I'm not versed on Kurt Kuhlmann I'm going to go have a look at what stuff he made

[plain cosmos]

Once upon a time, even Todd Howard cited Kurt as the one who determined Canon in TES.

He is no longer with Bethesda however, so he obviously no longer is involved with that.

[topaz dome]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Kurt_Kuhlmann

[agile herald]

I was reading this as you pinged me for it lol

[nova river]

if I recall kirkbride got fired from bethesda right as skyrim was being made right?

they had a difference of opinion

I could be wrong

[proven moss]

No, Kirkbride left BGS before Morrowind shipped I think.

He did contract work for both Oblivion and Skyrim iirc

[nova river]

I know he still writes books with the setting but that it is not canon

it is considered fan fiction

[plain cosmos]

Depends who you ask. Or if Canon even is a thing.

But, the details of Kirkbride's departure have never been publicly discussed, and for good reason. Not our business.

[nova river]

terical I make you thane of Bethesda Game Studios

I assign you Lydia as your personal housecarl

[balmy salmon]

I used to wonder just how canon a lot of MK's works were, especially the later stuff like the PGE 2E and Cyrus' Sword Meeting with Tiber Septim.

Then I realized that it doesn't matter because there was pretty much no chance of the really weird stuff actually coming into play in the games or in-game settings.

[nova river]

what?! you mean we cant be dragonborn?!

[formal plinth]

I wonder if the Imperials actually decided to go to war with the Thalmor again.

[nova river]

probably not

[formal plinth]

We all know that not a lot of Nords loved the Armistice.

[nova river]

they much prefer kissing high elven butt

you know the thalmor even gained power by taking credit for ending the oblivion crisis

[formal plinth]

I didn't know that.

[nova river]

yep

thalmor gained power in summerset because they claimed to stop it

they gained the khajiit allies by ending the void nights. For about a month after the crisis, the moons vanished in the skies. Khajiit are born based on the moons phase,

[formal plinth]

So even Misinfo still exists.

It was the Blades that ended it.

[nova river]

yep

[formal plinth]

At the Cost of the Emperor's Life, I wonder if Tiber Septim would've fought them personally.

[nova river]

probably

[formal plinth]

But that's another thing for another time, I'm tired and Wanting to Sleep.

[nova river]

course the empire isnt the septim dynasty

have a good night

I can DM you with some lore I have gathered for you to peruse at your leisure

[formal plinth]

Of course, Thank-you my friend.

[topaz dome]

Not necessarily Martin is not a member of the Blades and the Hero of Kvatch can turn down Jauffre's offer to join The Blades. If the player chooses not to join the Blades it is Martin, assisted by the Hero of Kvatch, who ended the Oblivion Crisis, not The Blades.

[nova river]

being a blade in skyrim is bad

the thalmor go out of their way to hunt down the blades

[balmy salmon]

The fact that the Thalmor's entire power base is built on lies makes me think that eventually it'll come crumbling down, just like with the Tribunal's lies.

[nova river]

I dont know where I read it

[plain cosmos]

The Blades, in general, are a bunch of useless hacks.

Let their worthless order die. The word will be better for it.

[nova river]

but by the time of skyrim, the thalmor is actually losing power in summerset and probably be overthrown After the events of skyrim.

they only maintain power in valenwood because they do cleansings of wood elf, which is where anti thalmor support strangely enough vanishes

and the khajiit if they were to learn that the thalmor CAUSED the void nights, I bet they would withdraw support

so far the khajiit only give support because they took credit for ending the void nights

[plain cosmos]

We don't actually know what caused the Void Nights. The only indication it was the Thalmor is one of Kirkbride's comments on Reddit.

Hardly a reliable or official source.

[nova river]

true

[balmy salmon]

It'll probably end up being their fault.

They already are on record for lying about stopping the Oblivion Crisis.

[plain cosmos]

The writing IS pretty lazy, yes.

[nova river]

kirkbride went on reddit claiming the void nights were caused by the thalmor as eugenics experiments

again it is only a comment

and thus hardly canon

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/deep-magic-lion-witch-narnia-dont-recite-gif-14879671

[balmy salmon]

They're one of the only groups with both the magical knowledge and the lack of scruples to make the moons disappear- and most importantly, they were the ones who benefited from it.

[plain cosmos]

I mean that as a playful jab, not as a serious condemnation

[nova river]

oh I know

I still wuve you terical

[plain cosmos]

They also have a known habit of opportunistic propaganda and taking credit for things entirely outside their own power.

The Void Nights could be entirely unrelated to anything they did, and they simply took credit.

[nova river]

like the oblivion crisis

[plain cosmos]

So far, the Thalmor have shown no real power to do anything outside political manipulations. Something like the Void Nights is an order of magnitude worse than anything they've been shown to be capable of.

[nova river]

my favorite oblivion crisis fact is mehrunes dagon opened portals all throughout tamriel until the argonians launched a counter invasion and to stop argonians from conquering his realm, he shut the portals in black marsh

[plain cosmos]

Most likely, whatever caused it ISN'T even resolved, and the Thalmor are just taking credit with no actual understanding of what even happened.

[nova river]

wouldnt be surprised

anyway the argonians are the chads of elder scrolls races

[balmy salmon]

They gotta make up for years of sitting on their tails and letting House Dres raid them without repercussions.

And letting Blackwood Company kidnap a Hist.

[nova river]

they conquered mournhold and sacked it

course I think the dark elves deserve everything that has happened to them

[plain cosmos]

They were fed to the Dres in order to prevent deeper raids and more direct military conflict. Disposable fodder to protect the Hist.

[balmy salmon]

They sacked it just a few years after Helseth banned slavery and got Dres to willingly go along with it.

[plain cosmos]

The Argonians deserve freedom. From their gods most of all.

[nova river]

I dont think dark elves can do away with slavery since they practically worship the princes of betrayal, sex, deceit and murder

[plain cosmos]

It would be easy. It was already on the out at the time of Morrowind.

The slave trader in Sadrith Mora actively laments the slow death of the slave trade in the game. Because most Dunmer don't look favourably on slaves anymore.

[nova river]

good

[plain cosmos]

They view keeping Slaves as weak. A truly powerful and prosperous noble can pay his servants, and has no need to slaves. Slavery is an institution of weakness.

[nova river]

true

[plain cosmos]

That's not entirely how the trend shifted. But it's how you could drive the ideological shift while maintaining the structure of the Velothi culture and faith.

[balmy salmon]

There's something really funny about seeing karma bite Hlaalu and Telvanni so hard.

[plain cosmos]

The actual shift was due to increasing Imperial influences and the difficulty in securing reliable slave supplies making it an unreliable industry, and forcing the former slave-owners to look at other labour options.

[balmy salmon]

One thing I've always wondered is where they got their Khajiit slaves from. My guess would be that they bought them from Senchal.

[plain cosmos]

Because the fields need tilling. And if you can't reliably get good slaves at the market, you need to start looking at local labour instead.

This would of course cause a feedback loop, because the investment in local economies would only serve to make MORE wealth for the noble class. Further discouraging them from looking at the slave market as a viable competitor to local labour.

[agile herald]

Put on your tinfoil helms, The Psijic Order are the reason the Void Nights happened

[plain cosmos]

Now, THEY would have the power to do so.

[nova river]

manimarco was a psijic

[agile herald]

The Psijic Order deserved more presence in the College of Winterhold Quest

[nova river]

I like their clothes

I would definitely kill one for their coats

and die in the process

[agile herald]

The Eye of Magnus stuff was truly fascinating breaking Aetherius is incredible lore as far as the series magics go

[balmy salmon]

Even with as little presence as they had, I liked seeing that they're working against the Thalmor, and the Thalmor seem to have no power to stop them.

[plain cosmos]

No direct power, anyway.

The actual political weight of the Thalmor, and the military might of the Dominion, likely keeps the Psijics from outright acting against them.

[agile herald]

If I recall the Shadow Tower is the Psijics Territory right

[balmy salmon]

Even if their island didn't disappear from Nirn, it'd be suicide for even the most powerful fleet to invade.

[nova river]

why would the psijics messing with the moons?

[agile herald]

Trying to Revive Lorkhan

[plain cosmos]

Forget tinfoil, it's lead foil hat now.

[nova river]

I thought the elves hated lorkhan because he is the reason why the gods and elves lost most of their power

[agile herald]

I just typed that as a first thought making the moons disappear would certainly help stop people from trying to Revive Lorkhan too

[plain cosmos]

The unbinding of the Heart had the unintended consequence of rousing the 3rd Moon. And the Psijics had to 'Direct' Jone and Jode to force it back, lest Lorkhaj's body push into Born and reclaim it's heart.

The goal wasn't to revive Lorkhan, but to prevent his resurrection.

[nova river]

that makes more sense

[agile herald]

I wonder what the Psijics would do with the Eye of Magnus certainly nothing good

[nova river]

so the psijics are the bad guys?

[plain cosmos]

Lock it in the Indiana Jones vault and never touch it again

[nova river]

not the thalmor? but they have great fashion sense and thus must be good.

[agile herald]

Just like most groups on the elderscrolls it depends on who you ask

[agile herald]

You'd trust the secret mage cult to just lock the secrets to breaking aetherius away?

[plain cosmos]

I trust them more than I trust any worshipers of the Divines.

Though, not by much.

[nova river]

cant we all just acknowledge our lord and savior sheogorath?

[agile herald]

I wonder if Scrolls of flight are banned in the aldmeri dominion like they were in the empire

[plain cosmos]

The Levitation ban is... A complex problem. A gameplay decision that has wide reaching an world altering implications to the setting.

Something I tried for years to get the lore community to recognise, and no one ever would

[nova river]

I thought levitation was banned because almelexia didnt like anyone being above her

[balmy salmon]

That ban was just for Mournhold

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tuss-jokes-gotcha-burn-ouch-gif-5645546

[plain cosmos]

Almalexia restricted it's use in Mournhold. But the Mages Guild banned it as well. Tamriel wide.

[nova river]

why?

I can see banning necromancy but how the heck does levitation magic be banworthy

[agile herald]

Levitation is technically seen in Skyrim at the Telvanni place unless that's a different spell

[plain cosmos]

The problem is... You can't just ban something like that. People would still use it illegally.

But by 4e37, knowledge of it was almost eradicated, held only by the Synod.

[nova river]

tel mithryn right?

[plain cosmos]

In order to accomplish that, the Mages Guild would have had to have ERASED the knowledge of the spells from the minds of thousands of mages.

Or so significantly altered the way Magic works in Tamriel to render those spells useless.

[agile herald]

Imagine levitating into castles and royal quarters

[plain cosmos]

Both options having immense ramifications

[nova river]

sounds to me people are too lazy to keep guards in their palaces instead of having to ban the ability to levitate

[agile herald]

Do you Think the guild may have used daedric power?

[nova river]

here's a thought: maybe bethesda says screw the lore and makes games based on fun?

just a minor thought

[plain cosmos]

I personally think that the explanation fundamentally explains how Spells work in the setting, and how you can buy and trade them like you do, while also having more academic applications and variable, complex magic.

[balmy salmon]

Mechanically, I see two large problems with levitation magic. The first is that the cities are their own cells, which I believe was what Bethesda said to justify not having it in TES IV. The second is that it's super OP in combat and throws it out of balance.

[plain cosmos]

But it requires a wholesale reevaluation of how Magic as a SYSTEM functions in the setting.

Whereas Bethesda's and ZOS' approach to Tamriel's system of magic has always been...

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-magic-gif-18115910

[agile herald]

The lore is half the fun of this series it's why I love it so much

[nova river]

oh me too

I used to just play it as general fantasy genre but learning the lore makes it even more awesome

[balmy salmon]

I figure it was banned in the same sense that necromancy was banned- you're just not supposed to use it. And the lack of anyone using it even illegally in TES IV was just because Bethesda didn't want to put it in because of the aforementioned mechanical concerns.

[agile herald]

I think the only thing missing from Elderscrolls to really give it that oomph of wackiness would be something like Centaurs

[nova river]

I want sea elves

water breathing altmer

[plain cosmos]

I did as well, until The Infernal City, where it's a minor plot point.

[nova river]

well I got to go switch to solar power

[plain cosmos]

Somehow, the Ban actively removed knowledge of the Spell, and made those few who knew how to do it covetous in that knowledge.

In less than a single generation.

[nova river]

I will be back minions

[gaunt bear]

Sure thing, Gru.

[plain cosmos]

It's past midnight here, I should tap out as well.

[balmy salmon]

The Levitation Act actually predates the events of TES III by a few years. But as we all know, the Telvanni pretty much ignore everyone else's rules and laws.

Alternatively, there's always the possibility that the terms of the Armistice allowed Morrowind to be exempted.

[upper field]

The Levitation Act...that's what bans levitation right?

[agile herald]

Yeah https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Levitation_Act

[nova river]

night terical. Talking with you is always educational which I enjoy

[proven moss]

Levitation needs to come back

It's weak sauce that levitation breaks quests or cities occupying their own worldspaces

[topaz dome]

I'm sure it will. Fallout's jetpacks are essentially a form of levitation. And what with Boston and other recent BGS cities not being in their own world spaces anymore I'd be very surprised if levitation did not make a comeback.

[balmy salmon]

Fallout's jetpacks, and Starfield's boost packs.

[proven moss]

That's a really good point

[glacial scarab]

Actually no. We don't actually know what the levitation act actually does.

"He's getting older, but he can still teach a bit about Alteration. He's been teaching it since before the Levitation Act of 421."

"He still teaches, though he lost his passion for it after the Levitation Act was passed. Can't say I blame him."

is quite literally all the lore of the "Levitation Act". It never tells us what it actually does other then making some dude lose their passion for teaching

[glacial scarab]

If Levitation Act actually does anything about it that is. Because we have no information about it.

[plain cosmos]

The only other information we have comes from The Infernal City, in which Annaig (sp) noted that the Synod had rediscovered the spell for levitation, and guarded it jealously, while she has herself found a way to replicate it alchemically.

This would imply that either Levitation was extremely uncommon outside of Morrowind, or the Mages Guild found some way to mass-erase knowledge of the spells from the minds of mages.

But exactly what spells are, how they function, and how they relate to magical practice is a nebulous, borderline nonsensical field in TES anyway.

[upper field]

Gotcha

[glacial scarab]

Is there a page or exact line for this? I'd like to source it at least for other places.

[proven moss]

Man I hated this bit of lore from the novels

Somehow the spell of Levitation was lost to everyone... upon which it was rediscovered and is now a closely guarded guild secret... just to be replicated by a young minor noblewoman and amateur alchemist from Black Marsh.

[topaz dome]

This might be what Terical is refering to: "Apparently, no one has heard of levitation is at least a lifetime. However, Lazarum of the Synod apparently figured out a spell to do it. (p.39)

[proven moss]

It paradoxically tries to justify a spell so esoteric that it could be forgotten by an entire continent... but also easily rediscoverable through some curious and determined experimentation

I think the absence of levitation in the games should not be a topic that lore attempts to explain.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly I never agreed with the Levitation act. Necromancy is still around and that's something nearly everyone has gone against at one point.
Spells like that wouldn't be forgotten. Espically with the amount of mages around Tamriel. Like the Imperial Battlemages are going to ignore it, Telvenni will ignore it (but probalby will try to sabotage it purely as a way to protect themselves for any would be challenger to their Castle/tower), any long lived person isn't going to forget it and etc.

[proven moss]

Yeah, necromancy is a great point. It's been banned by the Guild when it it held nearly a monopoly on magic education, and in certain provinces, but it's spells were never "forgotten."

And it's not like the removal of Fortify Attribute spells got the convoluted lore treatment involving mass amnesia

The lore just doesn't need to expound on and explain away what are ultimately game design decisions. I think most people understand that some stuff in the lore just doesn't appear in the games and that's fine

[plain cosmos]

But this all plays into a deeper issue in that... What Spells are has been wildly inconsistent over the years.

Can they be traded and sold line a commodity?

Do they require dedicated training and expertise and are prone to failure?

Can they be actively manipulated by the caster or are they 'What it says on the tin'?

[proven moss]

Well Skyrim made clearer what had only been an abstraction in the games at that point by turning spells 🧙‍♂️ into books 📚. So that's what Bethesda seems to intend now: buying spells means buying books with knowledge of how to cast the spell. Although you could also interpret the spell buying mechanic as paying an instructor to teach you a spell.
AFAIK, you could never drop or sell spells in the games, hence the popularity of spell deleting mods, scaling spells, and the like

So I don't think that's an inconsistency. Just a gameplay abstraction that was a bit clumsily handled in the first four games

Unless there is a lore text I'm not aware of that handles spells like tradable goods?

There is a lot of inconsistency though in how spells are cast.

And what's required to learn a spell

[plain cosmos]

Breathing Water specifically cites buying a spell OR potion from the Guild. Not a scroll, a Spell.

Similarly, the Mages Guild Charter from Oblivion includes trade updates to what Guild halls are allowed to sell what spells..

So, it's part of the written lore that Spells are sold, not just potions or scrolls. But HOW is never detailed.

[proven moss]

Neither of these strike me as necessarily problematic. Selling spells could very well mean selling scrolls, since they are single-use spells with no other purpose. Or indeed selling spell tomes like we see in Skyrim. The language does cast some doubt that spell instruction is what's happening when we buy spells, though.

Speaking of scrolls 📜, I have brought this topic up for discussion in the past. How they work is really a puzzle for me. Let me see if I can find that post.

[plain cosmos]

I once wrote up a whole thesis on the nature of spells and magic in TES, but looking back on it, it really just highlights how I spent more time trying to solve these problems than the writers did, and I kinda hate how much energy I put into it

[agile herald]

I assume it works like reading the scroll makes it happen or simply unrolling the scroll and pointing it where you want it to go makes it work before erasing the runes on the scroll

Tomes being studied material that isn't just the spell or nature of the spell itself so it can't be used like a scroll?

The mage related guild stuff has always felt surface level to me we should be diving into the nature of magic in these questlines

[plain cosmos]

The way I explained it was simple. All Spells are enchantments applied to something. When triggered, it uses the necessary Magical to elicit the desired result.

Scrolls are specially prepared parchment which have Magicka woven into them. The spell consumes the Magicka to trigger, consuming the scroll in the process.

A Staff, or other Enchanted Item, is made of sterner stuff and woven with a 'battery' enchantment that allows it to hold Magicka more reliably. When the spell is triggered, it draws from that Magicka to activate, but the stronger reserve structure allows the supply to be replenished.

When a PERSON casts a Spell, they're doing the exact same thing. Triggering an enchantment that has been woven into them. And the spell draws on their own natural magical reserves.

This sort of system would explain how the Mages Guild could function as a commercial institution the way it did, why the collapse of the Guild caused such a disruption of Magical knowledge, how Spells and Enchantments work, how there is a difference between Spells and 'real' magic, etc.

[proven moss]

Well the convo happened in another Discord and it seems that images posted here are always eventually deleted, so I'll just sum up the discussion

Basically we came to the conclusion that the magic was in the writing itself, similar to the way rune spells work in Skyrim.

[lone saddle]

Images are fine as long as the follow the #rules

[plain cosmos]

You'd expect everyone to use the same language then.

More likely, it's like Math. The Language is it's self an abstraction to describe natura behaviours.

But like Math, the 'Laws' of Magic would be descriptive rather than prescriptive.

[proven moss]

We were thinking that only languages that predate Creation might have inherent magical qualities? Like daedric or Elhnofex perhaps?
One person even brought up a comparison to math as part of the explanation of how scrolls worked. Like you had to solve for an equation, or something. Though, that would prevent quite a lot of people from being able to use scrolls, I imagine. 🤔

[plain cosmos]

Unfortunately, most people get what Math is wrong, and use it as a foundational argument for trying to justify some 'Higher Order', so I'd have to see the specific point to judge.

I view Magic, or at least Spells/Scrolls/Enchantments, more like Programming. They are designed to do a specific thing in as easy and reliable a way as possible. So even an idiot can use them.

However, running a Program is a very different thing from understanding how it works, and just because you can use a Spell doesn't mean you can make, manipulate or understand that spell.

[proven moss]

Right, the whole point was to bring magic to the average joe. To make it widely accessible. So the activation must be easy. Again, compare to the rune spells in Skyrim which activate when an enemy approaches them. A magic scroll probably does something similar when you unroll it or read it aloud or whatever the trigger is.

And the burning up of the scroll is just "part of the code" as your analogy goes

planned obsolescence to keep making the guild money

[plain cosmos]

The Programing angle would also allow for Magical Incantations, with spells designed to have trigger words using esoteric language to prevent unintentional use.

[proven moss]

Here's the discussion, I don't think it breaks any rules

[plain cosmos]

It has no Dragons, or Explosions. Therefore, it breaks the Rule of Cool.

[proven moss]

Dang

That little last point was about how Oblivion gates resemble the Oht symbol and how there might be significance to that.

Like the Oht is being etched onto Mundus itself and that is what a gate literally is

[plain cosmos]

It may also just be stylish flair. The Daedra do like to look fabulous after all.

Only people left with a sense of style.

[proven moss]

Yeah, it's just rampant speculation of course. Trying to massage this idea of the letters or words containing real magic power

[plain cosmos]

Indeed.

But, like I said, it's very obvious we have put way more thought into this than the writers themselves have.

[proven moss]

Yeah... the little lore we have from the games on magic has really just been cobbled together as necessity demanded it, by different people, usually for the purpose of individual quests. And in the case of scrolls specifically, that means almost never given it has never been important to any quest or questline

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got something I’d like to share that’s later in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, but also something to work on for the Elder Scrolls Lore Wonks:

Josephine: ‘…and the ghosts of troubles past come back to haunt the present.’ And now one of those troubles is brought before us. Paarthunax, leader of the Greybeards, has now been exposed as Alduin’s Second-in-command, and responsible for many atrocities committed against men, elves, and beastfolk. He now debates for his life before the throne of the Herald of Andraste, the Bride of Akatosh.

Maxwell: This is the part of my position that I hate most of all. But I have no choice but to uphold it. Paarthunax, state your defense.

(||This is just for fun. I have no intention of executing Paarthunax.||)

[proven moss]

Putting old Paarthurnax on trial eh?

[gaunt bear]

It's one of the features of Dragon Age: Inquisition, and it's something I don't like doing.

Maxwell: We all have to do things we don't want to do. This is the thing I have to do, even if I don't like it.

[gaunt bear]

Matthias: Consider it a ‘debate’, not a ‘trial’.

[silent obsidian]

So trial by combat then, if it's in the dragon tongue?

[gaunt bear]

Consider it "political" combat, the kind everyone hates.

Maxwell: Again. Paarthunax, state your defense.

[silent obsidian]

So there's a theory I've been toying with regards to TES magic being simply a physical expression of cognitive resonance so as to explain the reason for all the language and music/tone magic, and the random "existential" magics as well, but I'm not sure how to tie that to specific lore besides just those different categories not tying together well in any other way

[gaunt bear]

(What I'd like is some lore-friendly arguments from Paarthunax as if he made them himself.)

[sharp lantern]

I mean, if it's made a crime to cast the spell, I doubt many law-abiding mages would continue using, or teaching, it. Especially if they're part of the Mages Guild.

It's also not like levitation is some incredible benefit for anything other than for thieves and combat.

[sharp lantern]

I'd like to add to this that the Synod wizards knew levitation magic in such a great way they were able to cast levitation spells on thousands of Legionnaires of General Takar as he tried to attack Umbriel.

[sharp lantern]

Only the accuser makes claims of any supposed atrocities. Is killing hundreds of rebels who'd have killed you if given the chance an atrocity? For the rebels, maybe. But is it justice to order the death of the one who merely fought on the wrong side? No.

The Emperors had already commanded the Blades to leave Paarthurnax be, Paarthurnax was the first dragon to teach the Nord Heroes the Voice, and they did not kill him... by what authority do the Blades make the call for his death?

[proven moss]

There's potentially something there, as allusions to sounds/music with regard to magic are very common in TES. Very remiscent of Tolkien's ideas.

[gaunt bear]

Josephine: Those are excellent arguments, but that doesn’t excuse the countless atrocities against Akatosh’s children before and during the Dragon War. Explain those, if you will.

And as for the one with the authority to make such accusations, they come, not from just the Blades, but from the ancient high king of Atmora as revealed to Akatosh’s son in his dreams.

( @sharp lantern Just do a suitable defense for Paarthunax, and Maxwell will give his judgement. Don’t worry, ||he won’t be executed||, but I don’t want to spoil it too soon.)

[sharp lantern]

But the dragons can hardly be held accountable for these atrocities; there was an agreement, the dragons would appoint their Dragon Priests to reign on their behalf, and in return the dragons would grant these priests power. Is it the fault of the dragons that the Dragon Priests of the Nords started mistreating their own kin?

So when the Nord Priests failed to subdue the rebels, the dragons got involved. But unlike most, Paarthurnax pitied Man. He saw the way the Voice was a weapon that made the rebellion hopeless, and so he switched sides, and played a vital role in the victory over the Dragon Cult.

Did Paarthurnax kill rebels? Yes. But without him, the Dragon Cult would have won the conflict. The only justification for his death is if one supports Alduin and considers it treason to have turned against him.

[silent obsidian]

Yeah

[gaunt bear]

Maxwell: * lengthy, dramatic pause * While I cannot overlook the atrocities you committed on behalf of your old master, I also cannot overlook your contribution to the Resistance against the Dragon Cult, the original ancestors of the Inquisition.

I hereby sentence you to undergo the Rite of Rebirth that Matthias has created for spirits.

Paarthunax: * understandably confused * So… I’m not going to be devoured.

Maxwell: No, silly! You’re getting the Onikaan do Dovahkiin treatment.

Matthias: Oh, boys!

At that, a bluish rift portal (tied to Aetherius) opened up and a group of people seemingly hefted him onto some kind of trolley, and carried him through the rift. After that, Paarthunax’s cries, though not of pain, echoed through Skyhold. At one point, it sounded like his voice was getting higher, almost younger.

When he finally came out of the Fade rift, he resembled a cross between his old Dov self and a male Saxleel, albeit a massively muscular one with arms the size of most people’s legs, three-toed legs even larger than his arms, a strong, sinewy tail, and his wings extending from his new shoulder blades, so he could drape them across his back almost like a cape.

“Reborn” Paarthunax: * Dov expression of joy * I feel great. A new me for a new age.

One of the “boys”, handing a jumbo-sized lollipop to Paarthunax: And here’s your lollipop.

[nova river]

honestly I think the blades are dragonphobic, even if 99.9% of the dragons are buttheads. I think paarthurnax's turning against the cult and teaching humans to speak as dragons do being cause for his redemption. Besides out of every dragon in the game, all partysnax wants to do is chill on his mountain meditating words of power. letting such wisdom die is a greater sin then killing him for killing humans when he had no choice in the matter.

[sharp lantern]

They only want him dead to snub the Greybeards - hence them having zero issues with Odahviing.

[plain cosmos]

Or, more likely, no one ever coded Odahviing's ability to die, so a quest to kill him was never considered.

[sharp lantern]

True, but in lore it is a pretty big oddity

Double so when taking into account that Odahviing was loyal to Alduin up until his capture - and would proceed terrorizing the countryside again when the LDB is out of the picture.

[gaunt bear]

@sharp lantern What I want to know is what you think about my Onikaan do Dovahkiin rebirth for Paarthunax, especially the part with the lollipop.

[sharp lantern]

Definitely not what I was expecting lol.

[gaunt bear]

I know it was unexpected, but was it good or bad?

[sharp lantern]

If it was meant to be kind of comical, ya know, with the lollipop, it worked lol.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-boy-cowboy-gif-11711923202620056984

[nova river]

whats a saxleel?

[nova river]

I have a question...the elf in aldmeri dominion trailors is a high elf or wood elf?

because eso makes high elves look like normal skin tones which shouldnt be right

[gaunt bear]

The Argonian’s name for themselves.

[nova river]

oh....

well paarthurnax became an argonian so thats a plus

that means he gets water breathing and immunity to poisons

is it just me or does mannimarco seem to be a total butthead?

are all necromancers as bad as him?

I mean is there such a thing as a good necromancer: someone who wants to bring people back from the dead without rotting flesh nearby?

[sharp lantern]

Altmer.

[nova river]

but they dont have gold skin

or did the gold skin come after eso?

[sharp lantern]

They already had gold skin in TES III, TES IV, and TES V

[plain cosmos]

Bretons should have been an East Asian phenotype, instead of big standard European.

At least give them a visual reason to claim Altmeri blood.

[raw grail]

I don't think that's true

They were first put onto the idea because of ancient orders from the Akaviri Dragon guard to kill Paarthurnax, which Esbern read about in the "Atlas of Dragons". Delphine talks about not wanting to break her oath. Esbern talks about the atrocities he's committed being unforgivable. I don't think either of them are lying. I doubt they see harming the Greybeards as much of a downside, but I find the motivations they provide very believable in this case. If Paarthurnax weren't given most of the main quest to be friendly to us and build repertoire, I think less people would find their request so egregious (which isn't to say either is right or wrong, just that he's already set the best impression of almost any character in the entire game by the time we're asked to kill him, which is undeniably going to sway opinions)

[raw grail]

While I do think they probably should have wanted to kill Odahviing, I think this is also partly a consequence of the Atlas of Dragons: it mentions Odahviing, but the Dragonguard didn't give orders to kill him (he was already dead)

[raw grail]

You should check out Vastarie

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vastarie
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Necromancy
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Benevolent_Necromancy,_it_Exists

[sharp lantern]

1. The Blades swear fealty to the Dragonborn, and the Dragonborn Emperors had already ordered them to let Paarthurnax be.
2. Atrocities is a meaningless term - since they never specify them.
3. Odahviing would've been responsible for similar such acts, he remains loyal to Alduin up until his capture and will become a menace again when the LDB is out of the picture, yet the Blades do not order his death.

The Dragonguard didn't murder Paarthurnax, neither did their descendants. Ordering Paarthurnax' death has nothing to do with supposed ''justice''.

[raw grail]

I'm not saying you have to agree with their reasons or think they're reasonable, I'm saying that I think "they want to kill Paarthurnax to harm the Greybeards" is an inaccurate interpretation that doesn't follow the facts we have at our disposal

I also never said it had to do with justice, I said it had to do with following ancient orders

[sharp lantern]

The fact is that the Dragonborn Emperors previously ordered the Blades to stay their hands and they obeyed. The Blades are not the Dragonguard, the Blades formed specifically because the days of hunting dragons was over. Just because Delphine and Esbern return to their dragonslaying days, does not make past missions valid again.

And I repeat, it 100% is to snub the Greybeards. It is abundantly clear that Delphine opposes the Greybeards from the very first time we meet her - this is a way for her to burn the Dragonborn's bridges with the Order and make them a puppet of the Blades.

''Justice'' has nothing to do with it.

If the Nords of old - who endured the Dragon Cult - did not see fit to kill Paarthurnax, and the Emperor told the Blades to not go after him, by what authority do these two outlaws speak of "justice"?

[raw grail]

Why do you keep saying that?

[raw grail]

That's a valid perspective and that's not what I'm contesting

[raw grail]

This is what I'm contesting. It does not line up with what they say, how they find out, etc

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Atlas_of_Dragons

Paarthurnax - The legendary lieutenant of Alduin in the Dragon War. He is now known to lair on the Throat of the World under the protection of the Greybeards of High Hrothgar. Master Araidh continues the established policy of avoiding direct confrontation with the Greybeards while waiting for an opportunity to exact justice upon him.

Arngeir: "I know what path you set him/her on. And now Paarthurnax's wisdom is lost to us, just when we need it most."
Delphine: "He/She did what had to be done. It was long overdue. My only regret is that I wasn't able to kill him myself."

[sharp lantern]

Because two outlaws have no say in the law, and he has already clearly been pardoned by both the people he ''opressed'' and the lawful rulers of the land to this day.