elder-scrolls-lore

[fathom jewel]

Satakal can't just go somewhere and get a sandwich? I mean, if he's REALLY hungry, just get a double decker club sandwich. Or better yet - double bacon cheeseburger with avocado and a jumbo fries. I know a place - delicious burgers, but impossible to finish the whole meal. I knew a place years ago in Austin, Texas - had a 1 lb steak (delicious) with baked potato and salad. They said if you could eat the whole thing, they wouldn't charge you. Cowboys would come in after 10 hours on the range and couldn't finish it. Satakal can't be more of a glutton than that - just not possible.

That steak was an inch thick. Absolute truth.

[robust lintel]

True. Only way it could eat all that is if it was.. a blackhole.

[pastel sorrel]

They outsmarted them as part of showing why they refused to worship them as gods. The Psijics too don't see gods as a thing, only various spirits of various capabilities.

To the Dwemer, to acknowledge any other being as as god would be to acknowledge the Dwemer's own lack of godhood in the process

They had views in common with their Altmeri cousins regarding their degradation from divine to mortals, but they were even more hardline about it. There would be no gods to them but the one of their own making, anything less was profane.

The Numidium would be their escape, anti-creating their way back to the original divine subgradient they descended from, or even further back to take over the whole dream. They wanted to win.

And of course, not all of them were on board with Kagrenac's specific group and their plans, but they got caught up in it regardless.

[robust lintel]

Sort of the gods are okay, but only if I'm one, complex.

[plain cosmos]

In truth, they were really more Antitheist than Atheist, as their core ideology actively rejected the god claims of others.

[fathom jewel]

But kagrenac was a loon. If I understand the lore and its implications correctly, he wanted to subsume all the individual dwemer into one superbeing. That's vile. It's the ultimate in genocide.

But that's not the only weird thing about the dwemer. Notice how their steam technology and metallurgy has survived for MILLENIA, and at the same time nobody has been able to replicate it. Either everyone else in tamriel is a moron compared to the dwemer, or - as I've said before - they're just incredibly lazy. Maybe the Sload had the right idea with their khnaten (sp?) flu thing. Speaking of which: there are certain parallels between the Sload and the Dwemer, at least as far as their views on Gods are concerned....

[quiet remnant]

There are many who research the dwemer. The Empire shows interest in recovering Dwemer artifacts. The ruins are regarded by almost everyone as more dangerous than they're worth. A few functioning airships existed long after the Dwemer vanished. Crossbows were reverse engineered. I don't think it's for lack of effort.

[sweet plume]

The only one who would come closer to it would be Sotha Sil with Clockwork City

[quiet remnant]

He was a god even if false. He knew more than any mortal could ever hope to. His robots... in Mournhold did not visually resemble Dwemer technology. It seemed maybe even more advance. Very interesting. The Nords used simple mechanical technology with their saw mills. I don't think the people of Tamriel are stupid. Compared to the Dwemer sure, everyone is. I believe the existance of magic and the focus on worship turns society in a different direction. The science and engieneering of the Dwemer and Sotha Sil are not needed. Inteligent mages are capable of many things through spells and priests can bestow blessings that heal the sick and provide divine protection.

The common folk are more concerned with their harvest and taxes. The people with power like the East Empire Company and Telvanni wizards have a lot of interest in dwemer technology. The Mages Guild is teaching people how to levitate and everything else. Magic is far more common and accessable. Airships and automatons are cool but wizards can teleport and summon atronachs. The neccesity to recover and reverse engieneer dwemer tech isn't there.

[fathom jewel]

I don't agree. The armor, weapons, pumps and gates of teh dwemer are seemingly immune to rust or corrosion of any sort, and have lasted for thousands of years. The dwemer did invent airships and managed to dig deep enough to reach the outer mantle. Their technology is clearly of great use. Yet the mages who have researched their goodies haven't made any progress in that time. I'm of a mind to conclude that the mages aren't anywhere as smart as they pretend to be and overall the denizens of tamriel are bums. Boethiah, Malacath and Mehrunes Dagon should team up and show some 'tough love' to all of tamriel. Getting Boethiah and Malacath together might prove....challenging. But if she says she's sorry and makes some amends, maybe they can work it out. And all three of them together will whip Tamriel into shape.

[proven moss]

The Psijics, too, interestingly enough, share a similar idea about the "so-called gods." They maintain the traditions of the Aldmer ancestor-worshippers and don't revere a divine pantheon.

[fathom jewel]

this leaves open the question of what constitutes genuine divinity in ES. I can actually see the elven perspective - the aedra and daedra are very powerful, but seem quite flawed. Also, there is an aspect of mortality to them - after all, lorkhan is dead. Maybe his spirit is drifting around, maybe it isn't - but there is a corpse of lorkhan floating around in space above nirn (aetherius is what I think it's called.) However: what about Anu and Padomay? Just read up on the lore - it seems Sithis is Padomay and all daedra are 'spawn' of some weird sort of Padomay/Sithis, and that the Aedra are a 'blood mix' of Anu and Padomay. So are Anu and Padomay/Sithis actual Gods, or just older relatives of the Aedra and Daedra?

[glacial scarab]

armor, weapons, pumps and gates of teh dwemer are seemingly immune to rust or corrosion of any sort, and have lasted for thousands of years.
I'm going to note that is really a video game thing. Like there's banners still flying in the wind since the Merethic Era in Skuldafn for example

[robust lintel]

Hmm well at least they built stuff to last, unlike some of the crap I've ordered on the Amazon lol

[plain cosmos]

True, but in the case of Dwemer metal, we are told that it is almost impervious to corrosion and wear, in universe.

The banners are a suspension of disbelief thing. The Dwemer Metal is a stated in universe quality.

[sweet plume]

Which is why long after the 2nd Era to even the 4th, those Automatons are still in rather good condition.

[glacial scarab]

Be to slightly fair Dwemer ruins when lost was because the Dwemer decided to not exist.
Stuff like Ayleid structures and Dragon Cult Temples were lost a lot more violently.

[vernal saddle]

Do we ever get to see Numidium in motion? I know we see it while fighting Dagoth Ur in Morrowind, but its completely still there

[pastel sorrel]

No, and that's technically Akulakhan in TES3, though it seems it looks the same as the Numidium.

[vernal saddle]

that sucks, it would be cool to see the first Numidium being used by tiber septim

[fathom jewel]

Good point. But who knows? Maybe one of the draughr at skuldafn is a skilled seamstress, and every once in a while he pops out to riften or windhelm, gets some fabric and thread in the right colors from a haberdashery, comes back, gets on his sewing machine and repairs the banners.... 😉

[fathom jewel]

actually, i don't think that was Numidium. It was Akhulakhan, or Numidium #2. Also, I'm not sure it would be a good thing to see numidium actually strolling around. That is supposed to be a Tower unto itself and dragon breaks occur when it gets busy doing something. Probably a hazard to be even within 100 miles of the thing.

[glacial scarab]

Only images we have of it are from Daggerfall's endings I think? and from Skyrim with the Akaviri prophecy wall but none of them have any motion.

[vernal saddle]

That is a good point

[vernal saddle]

Speaking of Akavir, is there ANY chance that an elder scrolls game (maybe ES6) will take place in Akavir?\

[glacial scarab]

Probably not. TES has been keeping them vague to a silly level. To the point we don't know what the Kamal and Tsaesci look like and they've invaded Tamriel twice and had a lot of influence on Cyrodiil

[vernal saddle]

it sucks that eso takes place 10 years after the Kamal (i think it was the kamal) invaded and we dont get to see a single one

[sweet plume]

It probably wasn’t even the devs choice to not show them, Bethesda mandated for them not to be shown if anything under the masks

With no disrespect intended, Bethesda just seems to afraid to commit to showing the Tsaesci at least in how they actually look.

[vernal saddle]

Like- we have 3 eras of elder scrolls lore that has been shown in-game, and the only visual thing we have of the Akaviri is their armor style and building style

[glacial scarab]

They (Just TES in general) keep trying to put the Tsaesci ingame which makes it worse.

[vernal saddle]

by talos I want akaviri content

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, if you want to keep the Akaviri mysterious... STOP CONSTANTLY USING THEM.

Personally, I'm ok with not seeing any more of Akaviri anything, until I'm confident Bethesda can actually make them interesting.

[vernal saddle]

like- we see so many akaviri things, we have an emporer who invaded Akavir, the Nerevarine themself went to Akavir, and we dont get to see ANY of it

[sweet plume]

Joke

Bethesda: But we can’t… we haven’t committed to what we want them to really look like under the armor!

[plain cosmos]

Rumoured to have gone.

[sweet plume]

Commit already! Commit now!

[vernal saddle]

true, but still

[plain cosmos]

UnReLiAbLe NaRrAtOr!

You can't even trust what you SEE, because YOU are the unreliable narrator!

https://tenor.com/view/huh-what-surprised-hamster-oh-really-gif-17403495

[sweet plume]

Why do you torture me? You lock the Akaviri Tomb in Rimmen and don’t let me go in! Why? Why Bethesda and ZOS? Why you do this to me!?

I just want Looooooooooooore

[plain cosmos]

I just want Lore that's worth reading...

[vernal saddle]

I want lore that closes so many loose ends

[plain cosmos]

Like, Oblivion and Skyrim added so little of value, that it's barely even worth picking at. ESO was far, far better in this regard, but that's a whole other studio clearly putting in the leg work.

[vernal saddle]

Skyrim and oblivion are my favorites, but I will admit that they are very lacking in terms of lore, and they tend to raise more questions than they answer

And Skyrim's civil war could decide the fate of tamriel depending on which side you choose, so the next game will have to find a way to contend with that, and either make a set ending, or completely ignore it

I would personally like a Stormcloak victory, with a completely sovereign Skyrim

especially with the (as far as I know) end of the Mede dynasty

maybe a potential reformation of the Ebonheart pact to rival the Aldmeri dominion

[sweet plume]

Not gonna happen with the way the Political situation is with Argonian’s.

[vernal saddle]

good point

[glacial scarab]

It worked for TES4s Lake Niben.

[sweet plume]

Elder Scrolls Arnold, who would probably be a Nord: The River is out! The River is out!

[fathom jewel]

might be interesting to see citizens from the states of akavir at port cities, operating as traders/merchants. Could present some opportunities for specific quests, and it would be just plain fun.

the politics of tamriel at the end of skyrim don't make sense to me. I don't understand the motivations of the provincial rulers.

[robust lintel]

And it was prophecy foretold, from fortune egg roll, under uncertain times, under moonless nights, ...

[fathom jewel]

Now THAT would be funny - a quest with multiple stages, driven by......fortune cookies. 😅

[upper field]

So we know Daedric Princes can be """replaced""" so to speak (Sheogorath and Hermaous Mora being examples) so I can't help but wonder if any of the other Daedric Princes had predecessors.

[deep finch]

I mean, one of them is a poop of another one so, I wouldn't rule it out.

[upper field]

Poor Malacath. lol

[raw grail]

What? Hermamora got "replaced"?

[upper field]

No. He replaced someone.

ESO's latest DLC revealed he had a predecessor.

[pastel sorrel]

Ithelia wasn't his predecessor

[upper field]

Really?

[pastel sorrel]

She handled a whole different set of stuff than him

[upper field]

Ah okay.

[pastel sorrel]

He mainly just maintains the fatelines. She meanwhile was actively modifying fate herself, sounding almost Prisoner-like in her ability to walk different paths

He didn't replace her, he erased her for the most part, and even then he couldn't manage it completely.

[upper field]

Gotcha.

[proven moss]

Azura governs fate as well. Its prime real-estate.

[upper field]

So does Ithelia basically not exist anymore, or is it a similar situation to Jygalaag?

[pastel sorrel]

I mean the story's still ongoing so

She was basically reduced to just a handful of faded memories and fates, and she's got servants working on reforming her.

[upper field]

Ah okay.

[vernal saddle]

So, I've heard so many different opinions on this: Are the members of the Tribunal of Morrowind actually good and benevolent like they say they are? Are they actually better than the Daedra? Or is it all just subjective?

[robust trout]

everything in Morrowind is subjective, it's kind of point of how the game is set up

it's up to you to decide for yourself if you think the Tribunal is one thing or another

[vernal saddle]

That's good to know, I've only ever played the first 30 minutes of Morrowind, would you recommend playing it?

[robust trout]

one million billion percent. But I'm horribly biased towards Morrowind.

But as an example: the Main Quest never says outright if you are or are not the prophesized hero

[vernal saddle]

I've always loved the dunmer and their culture (learned my love from ESO) but I never decided to play Morrowind itseld

[robust trout]

Oh man then Morrowind is a must. There's so much, and the vibes are very similar to ESO

[vernal saddle]

Is there anything I need to know beforehand? (coming from an Oblivion and Skyrim player)

[robust trout]

I loved ESO because it felt like Morrowind: the MMO which is something I'd always wanted (been playing Morrowind since release )

[robust trout]

oh yes. There's no quest markers. Zero. No Clairvoyance either, iirc. Morrowind NPCs will say "Talk to everyone, talk is cheap" and that's really the only way to get random quests, directions, or even to find out the information you've been tasked with

I highly recommend that you do not venture into the cave outside Seyda Neen (your starter city) until after you've gone off and done some other quests and gained levels.

[vernal saddle]

I assume there's something dangerous there?

[robust trout]

at level one? you'll die to the bandits, in all likelihood. I remember being incredibly frustrated by it when I was a kid.

Morrowind has levitation spells, and flying nuisances called Cliff Racers (ESO's cliff striders are the precursor), so when you hear the battle music, check all six directions instead of just the usual.

[vernal saddle]

I remember cliff racers

and I also remember how different combat is in Morrowind when compared to other ES games

how do I combat

[robust trout]

yes, Morrowind combat is closer to D&D style RNG

keep a good stock of Restore Fatigue potions, because everything you do references Fatigue for it's success chance, mostly. Make sure you use weapons you have skill in, if you want to actually hit things. Some things (like cliff racers) have annoyingly placed hit boxes and it might take a bit for you to get the hang of aiming for it. Even if it looks like you hit something, because of RNG it might be considered a miss.

[vernal saddle]

Okay so value Fatigue, and dont use weapons your character doesn't specialize in?

[robust trout]

At least not until you've got some levels and other skills to help you stay alive while you train other things, I would say

[vernal saddle]

Thank you, I've been wanting to play Morrowind for awhile now, but have been stopped by the difference in mechanics

[robust trout]

If you think of it closer to D&D, that should help. Skill points resemble a percentile chance to hit/succeed, from what I remember. If you get frustrated, remember that there are tons of guides and how-to videos out there. (I still reference the OG official guidebook I have in physical form when playing)

After all this time, there's still things that are new to me in Morrowind.

[vernal saddle]

are there any particular sites or youtubers you would reccomend that will give the most reliable info?

[robust trout]

Can't really think of any offhand - I prefer to read my guides, so my physical book usually does the trick for me.

[vernal saddle]

Ah, thanks anyway

the only game guide I have is for Skyrim

[topaz dome]

The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages are an excellent resource for all the games. Here is the front page for Morrowind: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Morrowind

And this is the lore chat. So futher discussion of Morrowind, the game, should be moved to #morrowind-chat

[robust lintel]

Has there ever been an instance where two elder scrolls were like competing with each other because both came true at the same time/event. only that's not supposed to be possible?

[plain cosmos]

Not that I've ever heard of.

[robust lintel]

Maybe my mind is just blank, but is there any form of "sports" in TES?

[obtuse summit]

there's some kinda football in argonian related DLC ESO

technically hunting is kinda sport too lol

[plain cosmos]

They have the best kind of sport. Blood sport.

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-not-entertained-entertained-gladiator-russell-crowe-maximus-gif-17738266

[fathom jewel]

actually, sports might be fun. Skyrim, for instance, should have had hockey. Hammerfell? Hmm. Choosing the right sport might be difficult. Baseball, maybe?

[uncut hatch]

Does tag count?

[pastel sorrel]

They only see various possibilities, some may overlap. There's no "competing", it's up to the Hero of the prophecy to decide what actually happens.

If more than one scroll got it right, cool beans, doesn't really mean anything.

[robust lintel]

I know, I'm saying like two conflicting ones in a situation where it's not supposed to be possible for both to happen, yet does..
In a way, a glitch in the matrix.. haha

[robust lintel]

I mean it's a fantasy world with it's own lore, I'm sure could come with some sports of it's own too

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Recreation

[robust lintel]

I'd love to see and participate in some of those in-game

[fathom jewel]

Madden 2024 comes to ES.....

[weak shell]

The art of a stealth mage

[fathom jewel]

makes me think that maybe thieves and assassins shouldn't just have particular skill sets that match their profession, but also some very specific spells.....

[weak shell]

Oh yeah invisibility spells can help alot when it comes to sneaking along with spells like muffle for example.

If they had those spells it's more dangerous that's for sure.

[fathom jewel]

you read my mind. Certain spells for very high ranking thieves - levitation, lockpicking, seeing thru walls, hiding in shadows, moving quietly - could be a great addition. For assassins, more sinister stuff - going ethereal to walk thru doors or walls, magically poisoning a weapon such as a dagger or arrow or crossbow bolt, etc....

[weak shell]

It would make the game more challenging if they added it onto them

[fathom jewel]

you mean more challenging to develop as a balanced game?

[waxen elm]

It is a single player rpg. Literally every other game lets you become a god some how. Morrowind and Oblivion it was through magic, Skyrim its through the potion, enchanting and smiting systems. Might as well just give us the powers because we will break the game no matter what

[weak shell]

I love magic in skyrim

The atronach stone + the apprentice stone is a solid combo

And having the ring of erudite can help a ton

If you're a vampire, being a mage is gonna be amazing, because even in the day light if you have equipment that recharges your magicka quickly you can then use a healing spell along with the perk Respite that allows you to restore stamina which you can get at level 40 in restoration.

You also get an illusion bonus along with being more sneaky and the hungrier you are the more powers you posess which I find crazy

[topaz dome]

Folks, tthis is the lore chat. Let's take gameplay discussions to either #elder-scrolls-general-chat or to chats for individual games.

[lavish edge]

hi!
I may not be the most attentive.
I know that after the TIber Wars the Numidium shattered into pieces and all through the third era the Blades were picking up its shards and under Uriel VII it was finally finished. It was launched at Daggerfall. Where did Numidium come from in High Rock? Was it harvested there? If so, then where, because Zurin needed the entire Halls of Colossus to collect Numidium.
And still, if you give the mantella to some king, he immediately starts controlling the Numidium, without even having to bring the golem himself?

[robust lintel]

Hear ye hear ye, loremaster I summon thee..

[fathom jewel]

It's all here, I think: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Numidium

[gaunt bear]

I’ve actually got something already set up for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction featuring the Numidium: Because of the unpredictable natures of the “Dragon Rifts” between Thedas and Mundus, all sorts of consequences, intended or otherwise, have resulted.

In one case, Kagrenac and Caridin (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Caridin||) became partners and collaborators. Their partnership resulted in a flawless prototype for the Numidium. It was so flawless, however, that it ended up breaking free from its control mechanism and going on a rampage. It was finally deactivated and “shelved” but not before countless dwarves and Dwemer ended up losing their lives trying to contain it.

Kagrenac and Caridin had an infamous falling out afterwards, each blaming the other for its failures. Eventually, they would use what they learned to develop their own projects, but each not remembering exactly what the other had contributed.

During the 5th Blight, Tarin managed to convince Caridin to leave out the “control rod” step of golem creation, thus leading to a new generation of war golems with free will.

Well, what do you think?

[fathom jewel]

What do I think? Write the story. Get it published. It's pretty easy thru Amazon. They'll take a hefty chunk of the proceeds, but you'll still get something out of it.

Speaking of lore: where are the giants from? Yes, I know - Jotunheim. But where is the place? In Atmora?

[upper field]

As of the 4th Era, is the Fighters Guild still a functional guild or did it suffer the same fate as the Mage's Guild?

[waxen elm]

Still a guild. Just not in skyrim as they have rhe companions. Skyrim is setup differently then the other provenances. Even Morrowind the main assassin guild wasn't the dark Brotherhood but the moragtong

[upper field]

Gotcha.

I know the Dark Brotherhood suffered near total destruction due to the combination of the Great War and events in Blades.

[waxen elm]

Leading to the events in skyrim where they are a shadow of there former selves both in skyrim and cyrodil. Im sure either they will make a recovery or a reagon spasific assassin guild will show up in tes6

[upper field]

Oh definitely, especially considering the assasination of Titus Mede II.

Still curious about whether Amaund Motierre was really the ring leader or if someone else was behind the scenes.

[fathom jewel]

The diety whom the Dark Brotherhood serves is Sithis/Padomay, the very essence of chaos. I suspect Sithis would quietly take steps to ensure the DB continued to exist and serve his ends. Unless there is an equivalent in Redguard culture, I suspect we will see the DB in Hammerfell.

[upper field]

Assuming ES6 takes place in Hammerfell...

[plain cosmos]

Sithis isn't a direct, conscious entity as we generally understand it. I doubt it would take any steps to ensure anything.

Whatever the Night Mother is? Maybe. But Sithis is incapable of caring.

[fathom jewel]

Sithis/Padomay is rather enigmatic. I remember reading somewhere that the night mother might be Mephala. If this is true, it raises many, many intriguing possibilities. For example: is Mephala secretly behind the Morag Tong? If Mephala is serving the interests of Padomay/Sithis, why and how? What are the interests of Padomay/Sithis? I have no answers for these questions. They may be unanswerable.

[plain cosmos]

Mephala is overtly behind the Morag Tong. She is recognised as their patron and founder.

The question is more, is she involved in the Brotherhood post Vivec usurping her position in Dunmeri culture? Or is the Night Mother actually something different?

[shell basin]

Night Mother seems to mean different things. For instance, at least one leader of the Morrowind branch of the Dark Brotherhood - Severa Magia, whom we see (and kill) in "Morrowind" - has actually taken the title of Night Mother. If the "2920: Last Year of the First Era" series is to be believed, this has a precedent, and the leader of the Morag Tong at the time (before the split between the Morag Tong and Dark Brotherhood into different organisations) also had the title of Night Mother.

But then, the Morrowind chapter of the DB was itself kind of split, in the late Third Age: those whom we meet on Vvardenfell have forsaken all their previous patrons and sided with Mehrunes Dagon, thus making enemies of the Morag Tong - who still serve Mephala, albeit more covertly while in the lands of the Tribunal: while those who are in Mournhold, led by Dandras Vules (and who send assassins after you to Vvardenfell, but are not to be confused with the Dagon-worshipping sect who are already here) have given up on religious beliefs entirely, and are no more than murderers-for-hire serving their paymaster, and their current paymaster is King Helseth himself.

The player ends up invading their base and pretty much wiping the faction out anyway, so the Dark Brotherhood is eliminated as a force in the whole of Morrowind - both their Dagon-worshipping Vvardenfell sect (as part of the Morag Tong questline in the main game) and their secular Mournhold sect (as part of the main plotline of Tribunal).

Both factions would in any case be regarded as heretical by the Brotherhood branch in Cyrodiil that we see in "Oblivion", or indeed by the Night Mother worshippng faction of Skyrim 200 years later (Cicero and those who follow him). Astrid, who attempts to "modernize" the Skyrim survivors before Cicero's arrival and do away with their religion, would at least have some sympathy with the Mournhold branch of two hundred years previously.

[royal coral]

Black Marsh's sport is just who can get the highest

[abstract ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/excuse-me-what-high-cat-what-did-he-say-gif-15908042093095678250

seems like orcs have dodgeball, without the dodging

[uncut hatch]

That was the Blackwood Company's too
Speaking of, that questline was woefully unexplored, I still can't wrap my head around why they continued to take a drug that caused them to frequently commit mass murder
Was there anything more than to it than 'magic tree make me strong'?
Am I missing something?

[plain cosmos]

I still can't wrap my head around how they continued to get work, when they had a tendency to murder their own clients.

Like. That's not good for establishing reliable contractors.

[fathom jewel]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm starting to see a very clear alignment in the lore between the Yokudan and general Human pantheon. I get the impression the yokudan pantheon is being quietly 'reimagined' to align with the Aedra every day.

[pastel sorrel]

The Yokudans have always had some of the same gods, since those gods exist to begin with and have interacted all over the place

Just with different views on them

Morwha is Mara, Zeht is Zenithar, Tava is Kynareth, etc.

They're part of the Monomyth.

The Forebears are more inclined towards the Imperial Divines and such, but the Crowns still hold to a lot of the old ways of Yokuda.

[plain cosmos]

Tu'whacca is also Akray.

Most of the Yokudan pantheon, as with every pantheon, is either just a name swap of the Divines, or a minor spirit recognised but not worshiped by the Divine Cult.

Because the past interpretation of Mythopoeia is long dead, and what we now have is true Mythopoeia.

[fathom jewel]

Monomyth, mythopoeia.......someone remind me that next time I come to view these chat boards, I bring along a bottle of aspirin. These words are making my brain hurt. 😉

[plain cosmos]

Hah, try reading Binford

When we get into Technomic, Socio-Technic, and Ideo-Technic artifacts, you can break out the aspirin.

Mythopoeia is a technical term for Myth Making. It basically describes the mechanism for social development of stories and narratives used to relate events or explanations for phenomenon.

In TES, people often misrepresent the term to relate to a long discredited idea that mortal faith and myth fundamentally shapes the gods and even reality, shifting or splitting begins to reflect regional mythic differences. So Auriel, Akatosh and Alkosh are all individual, seperate entities reflecting the specific cults and myths that revere them, though they are also all tied together.

While still popular, this idea has basically been dead and buried since Skyrim.

[split pond]

Y'all reckon Hermaeus Mora knows where the artifacts from Starfield come from?

[topaz dome]

Unlikely, since he exists in a fictional universe and would have no knowledge of the universe we live in.

[fathom jewel]

that's a shame, because it sounds like a great idea.

[fathom jewel]

hermaeus mora is a poser and a card cheat. FACT. Example: notice how in skyrim he couldn't solve that dwemer lock where the Ohgma Infinium was stored? If he was so smart and powerful, that lock should have been child's play for him. I'm telling you, he's a fraud.

[pastel sorrel]

Not sure where you're getting the idea it's dead and buried, it's gotten its most support post-TES5.

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, he did know how to open the lock. He just needed to acquire the necessary blood, a menial task best left to us mortal servants.

[slender latch]

Unless you prescribe to the Bethesda multiverse theory. TES connects to Fallout through the Fallout Shelter/Blades crossover, starfield then seems to connect to fallout 76 through starborn symbols on the guidestones, you can even tie in doom multiverse with fallout if you wanted as it also got a crossover event.

[pastel sorrel]

Said theory was already debunked by the devs anyway so yeah.

[plain cosmos]

It's gotten diddly. Just people clinging to the nonsensical idea and grasping at straws

Jygalag never being able to be freed from the Greymarch is in a similar boat. People STILL make the claim based on scant references to characters from the past, entirely disregarding the whole context of said information

[pastel sorrel]

Comes across more as projection on your own part given the blatant oversimplification of the argument (regarding mythopoeia, not Jyggalag, he is ostensibly freed now) and disregard of what has been said of it. Whether it objectively is a thing, it's thought to be a thing by at least some, which is at least a start.

It certainly has not been debunked, it's just a part of the higher metaphysics that isn't touched upon as often, along with others.

[plain cosmos]

It's thought to be a thing by some IN UNIVERSE, sure. But so is the Transcription Error. Every divine interaction or higher status statement since Skyrim has made it quite clear that the 'gods' and higher order spirits are not shaped by belief. Rather, the perspectives on them are limited and thus different viewers form different myths about them.

Whether or not people at ground level in TES believe it is irrelevant. We have more context than them. And the context we have been given is very clear. Akatosh-Alkosh-Auriel are all the same thing, not different and independent aspects of a greater whole.

Same goes for Arkay-Tu'whacca-Orkey, Zeht-Zenithar, etc.

They are simple viewed through cultural lenses, not SHAPED by them. Which is incredibly lame, and they could have used some more Niel Gaimon influences in the writing room, but this is the current state of the setting.

[brisk perch]

Hmm, depending on interpretation, ||Known Things, knowledge that breaks the mind of anyone that knows them or attempts to comprehend them, lore from Apocrypha in the latest chapter, might actually be tidbits of information about our world||

[upper field]

So do we even know what counts as "forbidden knowledge?" I think the closest we've gotten is the Bend Will shout?

[slender latch]

Only that they aren’t the same universe. A multiverse that crosses over would be different

[brisk perch]

In terms of talking about multiverses, there can be concepts of a complete multiverse or omniverse/everything that can or cannot exist across all canons, versus ones that are within the same canon.
The Elder Scrolls story is itself is a multiverse if you consider its cosmology, but that does not mean that in some adjacent place or another amaranth/dream there is suddenly other IP under Bethesda present as anything more than an easter egg.
While there is some metacommentary on the nature of storytelling and authors/creators interacting with their worlds as gods, and other factors, each IP is separated into their own separate canon. Even if those canons all spawned from our existence.

[fathom jewel]

I would guess anything that begins to approach godlike power is widely considered 'forbidden.' Nevertheless, some individuals get their hands on such power and use it to various ends. Example: Mannimarco. Example: the Eye of Mundus. Example: the heart of Lorkhan. Example; the Pankratosword.

[upper field]

How did Mannimarco achieve a form of godhood?

[waxen elm]

Necromancy

[sweet plume]

He is now Moonimarco, and he’s Mooning everyone

[upper field]

Ah.

So he trancended the need for a physical body, became the Necromancer's Moon(?), and left behind a sort of avatar you meet in Oblivion?

[sweet plume]

That’s what many believe to be the case

[uncut hatch]

Yes and no

There's no real concrete answer, as the Dragonbreak caused every possible scenario to happen
It really depends on what you believe happened
Is the Mannimarco that failed to achieve godhood connected to the one that ascended, or are they two distinct beings?

Would his godly form even wish to acknowledge and assist his previous and/ or current self, or would he find him weak/ exploitable?
Does he consider his other self him, or not?
There's just so many questions and no answers

[upper field]

Ah.

[fathom jewel]

Mannimarco wanted to ascend to the level of divinity, but it seems to me he failed. After all, in ESO, Mannimarco is (for a while) a prisoner of Molag Bal. Sure, there's a moon 'dedicated' to him, but he doesn't seem to have the ability to attract followers and either create or influence events to the same extent that any Aedra or Daedra do. What he seems to have become is simply a very powerful Mage with immortality. But a deity? I don't see him having yet attained this, despite what the lore says. Perhaps he's at the same level of the individual Tribunal members or big daddy Dagoth, but that's about it.

[brisk perch]

ESO is a prequel to the other titles, long before the events of TESII Daggerfall.

[uncut hatch]

Also, the Necromancer's Moon has a massive impact on the plane of Mundus, as every eight days he essentially usurps Arkay as the God of Life and Death (if the lore source is to be believed)

Source is iffy as it's pro-Necromancer

[brisk perch]

Plus, High Isle heavily implied that the source of towers and divinity for many of the Aedra was likely less benevolent than is taught.
See: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spire_of_the_Crimson_Coin
||Pulsating young crystalline heart in a tower with a blood mage lich||

[plain cosmos]

Oh the Aedra are no better than the Daedra.

[sweet plume]

A misconception people tend to think about.

[gaunt bear]

Nobody, whether mortal, immortal, or divine, is truly “better” or “worse” than the others. They just think they are.

[brisk perch]

I think it might relate to subtle differences between how characters are defined.
Daedra, including Daedric Princes, seem to be hard-defined by their nymic, literally incapable of changing themselves without significant measures. True they can act slightly differently or do something out of the norm, but only if it does not conflicted with their definition. Mortals seem like eldritch abominations to them because they can change themselves freely, while not as powerful normally they have more control over their own lives.

[plain cosmos]

Well... I think most mortals would quite solidly be better than Tiber Septim.

Irredeemably wretched scum of Nirn that despot was.

[fathom jewel]

Are the daedra OR the aedra of any real use/benefit at all? Some claim to be - the 'good' daedra of the Chimer claim to be dedicated to the long term interests of the Dunmer. But I'm not buying it. The only peace, prosperity and justice any of the tribes (men, mer or beast) have experienced has come about entirely from their own efforts. The 'least dumb' of the tribes in this respect are, I believe, the altmer and dwemer. Just in my humble opinion.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/hearties-elizabeth-wcth-when-calls-the-heart-yes-gif-16965611

[plain cosmos]

As a general rule... Gods are of no use or benefit. There are few settings where they actually benefit, maintain or enrich mortal existence in any way.

[fathom jewel]

To be candid, I've begun to look at them all in an unfavorable light. I believe the Dwemer were justified in holding nothing but slight regard, even contempt, for the pack of them.

[plain cosmos]

I am generally quite Antitheist on the whole, but I find the Aedra particularly contemptible. Any entity who exercises such cold indifference and lack of interaction is even less deserving of worship than one which actively does harm.

The absolute BEST the Aedra offer is an oppressive despot who birthed an entire species of slave-driving flying lizards.

[uncut hatch]

fun fact boethiah ate Trinimac ,talked with his voice "I am Trinimac Warlord of the Aldmeri armies" and defecated him as Malacath and malacath said "Im Malacath im strong poopoo im biggest poopoo" look it up its true

And his idiot armymen jumped in the poopoo and turned into Orsimer

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/i-said-fun-its-not-fun-christopher-schlau-not-fun-its-miserable-its-bad-gif-16748007

It also depends entirely on who you ask. There are several versions of the myth, with the literal dung one being the equivalent of a Disney Retelling of a Brothers Grimm fairy tale.

We're even getting a new account, where Boethiah was Trinimac all along, and Malacath was simply impersonating him

[uncut hatch]

im taking my information off of Dagoth ur

here are all the thieves guild shadowmarks

[raw grail]

You should check out the butcher's table in hjerim

[uncut hatch]

i completed the mission i didnt see it

send me a photo

[raw grail]

I wonder if it keeps the symbols...

I don't have one on hand 😭 I've only ever seen one of the symbols and it was from a friend

[uncut hatch]

what symbol was it

thr Butcher has no Conmections with brynjolf tho

[raw grail]

It's a similar pair of symbols, not quite actually any of the ones in the book

I think probably the symbols are older than the Thieves Guild and the Thieves Guild are just using them

Based on the fact it was in the ritual table in Hjerim, they're probably magical in some capacity, or at least can be used for magic

Kind of like how Daedric can be used in rituals as runes, but can also be used as a symbol or to write words

You can kinda see them here, under the bones

The tail on the triangle goes further out of it than the one in the danger symbol

[raw grail]

Got a better pic of them now. This is the one my friend took

It looks almost like empty has been inverted, but I don't know what to make of the modified danger symbol

[uncut hatch]

this is a ritual symbol

nothing to do woth thieves guild

[raw grail]

I'm not saying it has to do with the thieves guild, I'm saying they're nearly identical to a pair of shadowmarks, which might exist separately from the thieves guild

And therefore makes for interesting theorization, such as the idea that shadowmarks can be used as ritual symbols and for "normal" communication

[hollow dove]

while similar, i wouldn’t say they’re connected, yeah, but i do find your theory interesting

the butcher’s journals ( specifically the 2nd ) are translated from aldmer text i believe. the butcher also writes about “flesh magic” being “older than us” / “older than the world itself” , so that probably implies it has zero connection with said symbols. also it was founded before 2e 549 or something, so, if anything the magical symbols are likely to be far older. maybe the tg took inspo from said runes . who knows

either way i wouldn’t say, off the top of my head, nocturnal has any connection with said magic. can’t really make any ties easily here, at least from my pov

whole page on flesh magic here which is pretty cool https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Flesh_Magic

[gaunt bear]

Can’t wait for yet another official add-on where a mage’s experiments with flesh magic goes out of control…

Dragonborn: And, once again, it’ll be up to me to do all the cleanup, right?

[hollow dove]

who else? LOL

[raw grail]

I can't say it's related to Nocturnal specifically

Daedric Runes aren't related to any individual Prince or organization

Ditto @ Ehlnofex. They're just languages that can be used for many things. In theory, shadowmarks might not actually originally have anything to do with shadows, and the name just sounded cool for these symbols the TG started using

[raw grail]

It's hard for me to see something almost identical to the danger symbol and go "yeah, that's not at all connected"

There's something there. It could even be a shared origin, rather than one coming from the other

[hollow dove]

yeah no i get it
cool theory though i can’t lie

[raw grail]

What do you think my theory is? The way this reads, it sounds like you think I'm saying the thieves guild made shadowmarks and the Butcher got it from them

I might just be misunderstanding

I think I misunderstood. I agree with pretty much all of the stuff you said

[hollow dove]

to be honest excuse my brain fog cause i might be misunderstanding too
i’m not thinking that, though. i don’t believe you’re saying the butcher got the markings from the thieves guild. you’re comparing the similarities between shadowmarks and the runes found on the ritual table, rather than saying they are the same

apologies because i wanted to bring in the context of the markings on the butcher’s table, and what they say in the journal, it being flesh magic

don’t be sorry! i get it. loads of lore. it can get confusing

sometimes i just don’t explain the links i make lol

[raw grail]

Yeah. I took a few specific things as like, countering what I said, which was confusing cuz it was also saying the same thing I said. I jumped to defense. Really you were just independently reaching some of the same ideas

[hollow dove]

oh naw sorry about that 😭 didn’t mean to come across that way at all

[raw grail]

I also grew up in an argumentative, debate-heavy household, so I'm just quick to assume I'm being countered

I got there eventually in the end xD

[raw grail]

Yeah, it's definitely flesh magic

The journals have a few other interesting tidbits. It's got some numerology. Kinda like Neloth and his briarheart research

[hollow dove]

i wouldn’t be surprised if the butcher had connections with the thieves guild though. given the quests, they really do reach to get information

[raw grail]

Credit to the same friend as I got the photo from for telling me about it

[hollow dove]

ohhh, i haven’t played the quest in a while tbh, was always buggy for me until i got a debug mod to crack things open and keep them going

[raw grail]

17 tendons and assorted ligaments 173 fragments of bone for assemblage approx.

4 bucket-fulls of blood (Nord preferred)

6 spoons of marrow (no more than 2 from a thigh)

12 yards of flesh (before cutting)

17. The Hurling Disk.

3. The Invisible Gate, ALMSIVI.

4. The Corners of House of
   Troubles.
5. The Walking Ways.

12. The Heavens.
    All from sermon 29, in the order of appearance in the butcher's journal

[hollow dove]

oh woah.

[raw grail]

It overwrote the numbers...

Fixed

The hurling disk is the egg (18) - 1. The egg, by my understanding, is basically something prepped to turn into something else. Argonians call the creation of Aurbis "exact-egg-cracking" and they call Sithis "exact-egg-cracker". This is basically referring to the same event that elves think of as the sundering of Anu by Padomay, into the 12 worlds

3 is a few different things depending on context. I want to relate it to the three-in-one in this case: Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec, when taken as one, are ALMSIVI. There's another connection I've got in the back of my head that is harder to bring up

The corners of the house are what make it strong and durable. The walls can only stand strong so long as they have structure

The walking ways are the methods of ascendance, or apotheosis

The 12 heavens can be related to the 12 worlds of creation, left over after the sundering... Or as the 12 constellations, the birth signs

This is all super theoretical, but in the end, I'm seeing a picture of:
17 nearly being the egg
173 = 17 + 3 in 1 to complete the egg
4 providing structure
6 providing a means to walk forward, to grow
12 providing a connection to ancestors

But I'm not very good or confident with numerology and am like, a few steps away from guessing, so HUUUUGE pile of salt

But it's a fun topic

[plain cosmos]

Eeeh.. numerology is pretty gibberish at the best of times.

[raw grail]

Yeah, that's fair

The Neloth one is cool too

Not as much stuff going on tho

[plain cosmos]

All it takes is the assertion that a number is important, and the cherry picking and hoop jumping to make a convincing argument for that importance.

In order to make it anything but real-world Numerology (which is utter nonsense) you need to really establish clear in universe rules for it. Like they do in Warhammer, or D&D.

And TES lacks that foundation.

[raw grail]

What did you learn from the Briarheart?
"The connecting soul thread is knotted three times, once for the heart, once for the spirit, and once for the body. The knot gives the connection a strength that may be the key that I've been looking for."

3 being, again, the 3 in 1, such as ALMSIVI: the heart, spirit, and body form a perfect tribune that, together, forms a mortal, I suppose? Something along those lines

[raw grail]

Yeah, it's a lot like throwing darts in the dark with no way to tell you hit or missed

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. Which is why, personally, I avoid all the Numerology stuff.

[raw grail]

That's valid. I touch it tentatively

Sometimes it's a little more obvious it's there, like here, but less obvious what it means

[plain cosmos]

But, I mean. If you enjoy it, go for it. I adore Demonology, even though I think it's all made up nonsense, so something doesn't have to actually MEAN anything to be enjoyed.

[raw grail]

Yeah, I almost said that earlier

Like, it may not be super fulfilling or reach a conclusion, but it can be enjoyable still if you're into that kind of stuff

[plain cosmos]

Except for Afterlives. The very concept of an Eternal Afterlife is both horrifying, and fundamentally demeaning to the importance of Mortality.

[raw grail]

I don't like numerology when I just draw blanks with no ideas

[plain cosmos]

That's fair.

[raw grail]

It just frustrates me cuz I'm like "I no understand, nothing makes sense"

[plain cosmos]

But, that's enough waffling for me. Back to work!

[raw grail]

Hmmm... I have mixed feelings

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/carry-on-kenneth-williams-gif-10178925

[raw grail]

Afterlives kind of defeat the "enjoy life while it lasts" value of mortality, but I think that life still has some value in the sense that "I had experiences and these events shaped who I am" and the sense that "I will have a legacy in life through children, who will eventually join me in the afterlife (and in some cultures will carry on with me to the first/last battle)"

So it becomes less about the experience of life itself so much as how your experiences in life can affect other things?

But ofc those are all very personal feelings and everyone is going to feel differently about all of them

[plain cosmos]

Avoiding the broader discussion on my feelings on Afterlives, within the context of TES I think they heavily undermine the core metaphysical divide of the setting and the importance of Mundus.

Creation, the 'sacrifice' of the Aedra, the existential dread and sense of lost divinity of the Mer, the appeal of serving the Daedra... Having very real Afterlives heavily undermines all of that.

Because they ultimately make Mortality a rather temporary inconvenience. A stay over in a crappy motel and a visit to a trashy theme park on your way back to becoming an immortal Spirit.

It makes the entire Merish world view just flat out wrong, further stripping the Altmeri Theological perspective in particular of any nuance or value, while at the same time not actually adding anything to the Mannish world view.

Mortality ceases to be the massive paradigm shift in the Aubris, this fundamental change in the nature of both causality and potentiality. Now, it's just an unpleasant time out that occurs for an infinitesimal fraction of your eternal existence as a Spirit.

[sweet plume]

Which personally is whatever to me as I’ve always been supportive of people living a better life after death.

Different series will handle the afterlife differently, Pillars of Eternity is literally reincarnation into a new person or even an animal.

[pastel sorrel]

Mortality is not the ultimate point of the Mundus.

It's another subgradient, another stage. Mortal death is ultimately another cycle of immortality, because it's still bound to the physics of the Aurbis. It's not necessarily something new, because it's ultimately geared around Lorkhan's own nature and what the other aedra also contributed, but rather provides a different perspective that isn't necessarily natural to them.

A line from Imago Storm in Battlespire:

Mortals are short-lived, ignorant, and feeble by contrast with the daedra. But you mortals are also potent engines of change and innovation, of desperate and reckless improvisation and industry. Thus do we so prize the fruits of your mundane and arcane engineering. Thus do we bargain and plunder and steal to gain these treasures. We have lived too long, and grow dull and complacent. You live too short, and so are wonderfully sharp and inventive. Does that make sense?

Lorkhan's Arena breeds innovation, at least in intent. Mortal death is simply a pitstop before eventual Dreamsleeve stripping and return to Nirn for another life, another chance to Figure Things Out™️.

The point is not simply to live and die, but to learn to surpass your limitations, even passing beyond death to the next step, Amaranth. Whether Lorkhan truly experienced CHIM, it seems he understood it well enough that he could make a new plane intended to explore it.

Hence the Good Daedra seeking to teach the Chimer the Psijic Endeavour.

It's not about the fact you live and die, it's about what you do with it.

If you're not interested in what lies beyond, a la the terminal nostalgia of the Altmer, then hey, you do you. But you will never be anything more than that same circulating spirit, lunar currency for the gods, stuck in the old ways of the Aurbis. Even should they succeed in returning to their ancestral forms, they will only ever be what they are, never what they could be.

And even the aedra seem to have warmed up to the idea of Nirn.

[plain cosmos]

Point missed spectacularly. But nevermind, I know better than to try and explain myself at this point.

[fathom jewel]

Your series of posts on this are, in sum, rather poetic. Thank you. 🙂

[pastel sorrel]

I'd say you're the one missing the point. Mortals are still stuck as mortal spirits, not as the gods they came from. The point of mortality is to give them the chance to go beyond, rather than returning to the same limited states (the greater spirits of the Aurbis, for all their power, are limited by their natures in ways mortals are not). Mortality is still a major paradigm shift, but it seems you're begging the question as if it's somehow only important if death is the final stop. There's still the eventual Dreamsleeve stripping before return to Nirn, so, there is a final stop, but claiming the existence of afterlives undermines the whole thing misses the point of why mortality's there in the first place.

The Altmer aren't "wrong", what they have is a particular view. Is it wrong to be nostalgic for better times? Is it wrong to want to avoid the hardships of the Mundus in favour of their ancestral godhood?

Where they fall short and can be wrong is realizing that A. they're in the minority for seeing the Mundus as a bad thing, and that tearing it apart for their own ends is selfish if not outright malicious, and B. even the gods seem to've abandoned them and their old ways; Auriel didn't exactly protect the Crystal Tower, whereas up in the land of the mutant men, there's a whole divine statue of Akatosh formed where he manifested to protect the WGT.

For all their preening and praxis, when's the last time the traditional Altmer achieved any apotheosis? It's been millennia since Phynaster and Syrabane went up. Meanwhile Tiber Septim over yonder..

Even if for the sake of argument they're not meant to be "right", it's understandable why they hold the views they do. You can have an elaborate and nuanced worldview that's still plain wrong.

[fathom jewel]

This does raise the question, though - what is the ultimate goal of the Thalmor? They've broken up the Cyrodiil-based human imperium almost completely and re-established the old Dominium political sphere by absorbing Valenwood and Elsweyr. Talos worship has been substantially curbed, though obviously not entirely eliminated. If all this resulted in a long period (hopefully multiple centuries) of peace, that would be a very good thing in my view.

[plain cosmos]

Based on all available information...

Simply the systemic authority and racial superiority of the Altmer (under the guidance of the Thalmor political party) above all other peoples in Tamriel.

The Thalmor Justicars dress like Medieval SS for a reason.

[plain cosmos]

Tacky as it may be, I think the inception of this idea of the Thalmor has been pretty clear since the start. They aren't becoming anything. They were always intented to be 'this'.

Though I mean... When you're trying to make Talos a good guy and the Stormcloaks relatable, your options of 'The bad guys' are pretty limited.

Personally, I'd like to see them grow out of that into something a touch more interesting and nuanced, but... Well, nuance hasn't been Bethesda's strong suit of late.

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, the Thalmor do have that 'SS' vibe about them...Pity. If they're looking to hold sway over all of Tamriel, it would be nice if they could stop the militarism and try a diplomatic approach going forward. Something along the lines of "OK, everyone - we're happy to trade with you all and our navy can help protect our local sea lanes for that. But we're going to require a cessation of Talos worship, no reformation of a human imperium and a respect of the current boundaries of the Dominion. If everyone can agree to that, I think we can all be copacetic and get back to letting the Grateful Dead tour endlessly and without restriction." My guess is the Dunmer will have no problems with that (honestly, they seem to be the most rational of all the tribes), and the rest of the provinces - almost all torn by internal divisions anyway - will hopefully go along to get along. But I suspect that Bethesda won't implement that....

[sweet plume]

Lore is best

[sweet plume]

Where were you when Vvarden Fell?

[gaunt bear]

Uh… what?

[sweet plume]

Where were you when the Vvarden Fell?

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/theoffice-michaelscott-facepalm-explain-likeimfive-gif-4936321

[sweet plume]

I mean it’s just a simple joke to “Where were you when the Dragon Broke” and the fact it has fell in the name.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/the-joker-the-dark-knight-heath-ledger-smile-i-thought-my-jokes-were-bad-gif-17500231

[sweet plume]

I mean I’m not looking for your approval so…

[cinder valley]

Please do not argue in chat and remain respectful to eachother.

[sweet plume]

Hey I’m alright, I’m just chilling.

[fathom jewel]

I was......Elsweyr. Yuck yuck yuck, hardee harrrr 😉

[sweet plume]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-yay-shaqoneal-excited-dance-gif-8818184967646032189

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/dad-joke-dadjoke-roasted-boom-gif-22339988

[sweet plume]

Looking at Thane Mera Stormcloak in Windhelm in ESO makes me wanna go, “Hey, your Great (Lost count of greats later.) Grandson is gonna cause a Civil War in Skyrim 974 years from now.”

[robust lintel]

Very, very bad indeed.. https://giphy.com/gifs/evil-BZlNhp9L5WINi

[brisk perch]

TBH it would be fun if they allowed us to mess with NPC's more if we know what is going to happen or can happen hundreds of years in the future.

[robust lintel]

🔮

[fathom jewel]

HNY everyone https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8e/a9/88/8ea988272c3713d3873faec67efdfc3b.gif

[uncut hatch]

Do the Stormcloaks AND the Empire share the same amount of hatred towards the Thalmor?

[brisk perch]

Debatable, but generally the Stormcloaks are more open about it.

[sweet plume]

Pretty sure they do, just that The Empire wants to take it’s time via a cold war and spies before one day tackling another War. Ulfric rather just fight for an independent Skyrim but at the cost of hindering the Empire from focusing completely on the common enemy.

[fathom jewel]

The stormcloaks quite clearly have a profoundly low opinion of the Thalmor. The Empire, on the other hand, likely shares that view but is utterly prostrate before them. You don't acquiesce to demands for a mortal enemy to enter one of your provinces in order to regulate religious affairs, Concordat or not. You also don't bring along a Thalmor representative to a negotiation with the Stormcloaks - it's an internal affair and a problem that exists precisely because of the Thalmor and the Empire's fecklessness in the face of their pressure. You'd think the Empire would have woken up to the fact that the Thalmor were not as strong as the pretended to be - after all, their armies got driven out of both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, with high losses to the Thalmor in the former. So it's not really a question of who hates them more, but of who has the spine to resist them. The current Imperial leadership does not. At least that's the way it appears to me.

[void kayak]

Can someone explain the Orcs to me? I'm really confused on how their culture and society works, especially in relation to Orcs who live in Imperial/Nord cities

[proven moss]

Well for one thing Orcs living an urban lifestyle, even in Orsinium, would not live according to Orcish society

[void kayak]

So they don't follow the Code of Malacath?

[proven moss]

No they wouldn't. Similar to how Bosmer living outside Valenwood typically don't follow the Green Pact

The Code of Malacath basically establishes the rules of how Orc society shoudl be run. If you're not living in that society, you wouldn't follow those rules.

I live around lots of Amish people. Similarly they have their own society and rules. But if you're Amish and you decide to leave that community, you don't really follow those rules anymore.

[fathom jewel]

Actually, they should be able/allowed to follow the code even if they're not in a stronghold. Think about the Orcs serving in the Legion. They wouldn't do so if it incurred a loss of honor. So: there must be a way to conform to the code while not in a stronghold.

[proven moss]

Yeah but the Code describes how a Stronghold ought to be set up. You can say you're abiding by the Code but that means squat if you aren't living in a Stronghold and are instead abiding by the Legion's rules.

The Code of Malacath is really just a code of laws. If you live in a Stronghold, you abide them. If you live in the Imperial City, you abide Imperial laws. You can try to ignore them but you'll probably be arrested or fined.

[pastel sorrel]

The Codes of Malacath are really just whatever they want them to be

There's different strongholds trying to do their own things

many will claim to still follow the Codes

Orsinium as a whole has been run even by Trinimac worshippers before. How an individual stronghold is run isn't necessarily part of how Orsinium is run.

And it's not like every orsimer in the Legion is from a stronghold

[marble oar]

Bretons: Mechanics - We are really good with magic and not much else.

Bretons: Lore - We founded the first Knightly Orders and make questing culture popular throughout Tamerial.

[fathom jewel]

Seems to me any thorough discussion of the Bretons has to include the Direnni influence on the development of their culture. The Direnni themselves come across (at least to me) as different from the typical Altmer families, so their influence on the Bretons would be worth examining.

[solar jasper]

Bretons: Mechanics- we are nigh untouchable by magic attacks making us apex tanks with a blank slate to use whatever weapon we want

Bretons: Lore- In the name of our quest, as the kids say "We ball."

[abstract ledge]

Bretons didnt found the first knightly orders. The Welkynar predate them

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton bretons have so much potential. This article goes in depth on them

[robust lintel]

Potential indeed. They have to wear extra-large helmets for them big brains

"You and me, we're the only people around who aren't complete fools." https://i.pinimg.com/736x/82/db/dd/82dbdd00b9dda07f055a347a8805d700.jpg

[deep finch]

That's clearly photoshopped. 😝

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got a question for my notes for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: What would the other Daedric Princes think of the Inquisition and their goal to “restore order to a world gone mad”?

I do have that Corypheus, before his infamous act, masterminded a “Great Purge” against daedra worshipers that inevitably became a witch-hunt.

[plain cosmos]

At best, I imagine they may find it amusing. At worst, they'd actively oppose it.

Though some, such as Bal and Meridia, may actually support it.

[gaunt bear]

If you don’t mind me asking (for the sake of my notes), who might oppose it, who might support, who might be amused by it, and why?

[plain cosmos]

Bal and Meridia tend to like oppressive order, and would probably support it.

Mephala, Namira, Vaermina and Dagon all freely embrace chaos and would likely oppose it directly.

Azura, Peyrite and Mora may oppose it because it disrupts THEIR order.

Vile, Nocturnal, and Sheo would probably be amused.

And the others would likely be indifferent

[gaunt bear]

Maybe, but Vaermina might change her mind once the Inquisition encounters the Nightmare (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Nightmare_(demon)||), Azura might change her mind since Tarin (MY Nerevarine) and Aedan Cousland (MY Hero of Ferelden) aided each other against their respective foes (and Tarin supports the Inquisition), and Mora now grudgingly respects the Inquisition because Dorian and Max (My Inquisitor) succeeded where even the mightiest Dwemer Sages failed: they traveled a year into the future (where Corypheus was triumphant), escaped back to the present, and proactively makes sure it never happens. Dagon, naturally, is very interested in the magic of the Anchor and what it can do.

What all the Daedric Princes agree on is that they don’t like Corypheys (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Corypheus||).

[gaunt bear]

I’ve also got that the opening of the Breach (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Breach||) undoes enough of Martin Septim’s Sacrifice to allow Miraak to escape Apocrypha. While initially he sides with Corypheus because Corypheus promises him the throne of Cyrodiil (but plans to betray him and seize the Throne of Heaven for himself), the paradox/glitch he unwittingly creates begins harming both him and Matthias until one of them kills the other. (Me, doing my best Terry Cruise Old Spice impersonation: I don’t know! I’m not a mage!)

As a side note, I should mention that all this and more is happening because the magic of the Anchor (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor||) interacted with the power of an Elder Scroll, thereby causing all kinds of problems, even through time and space.

[void kayak]

Okay. So...."The Dragon Break" isn't the "Warp in the West", correct?

[gaunt bear]

I think they’re referring to the Middle Dawn.

[void kayak]

First Era, right?

[gaunt bear]

That’s just my guess.

[void kayak]

I think it's correct.

I'm reading the Skyrim Library books, Volume 1, The Histories

How much knowledge would the average citizen of the Empire have about its history and the lore of the greater world?

[plain cosmos]

If you're talking about the one mentioned in 'Where were you when the Dragon broke?', then yes. It was in the 1st Era and is not the Warp in the West.

[sweet plume]

The one in the 1st Era Lasted 1006 Years I believe, the longest one

[void kayak]

Yeah, that's the one

Is there a book on The Warp in the West?

[plain cosmos]

There is one. The Warp In The West, I believe, is actually the title. Hold on, I'll see if I can find a link

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West

[plain cosmos]

There you are. That's our best resource on it, really.

[void kayak]

Ah. Only in Oblivion. That would explain why it isn't in the Skyrim Library.

Thanks

[fathom jewel]

Wait - a 'dragon break' is an event where the 'river of Time' is disrupted. Several have happened. The Warp in the West is one of those incidents.

[upper field]

So is it true that there are "female" dragons that come in and fix things up or something?

[void kayak]

Do we have much info on Argonians outside Black Marsh? How they operate without the Hist?

[fathom jewel]

Maybe the abscence of female dragons is why the dragons we do encounter are so cranky.....

[fathom jewel]

They must be able to operate outside their home province for extended periods, since we have seen them in ES3, 4 and 5. What is this connection to the Hist which is important to them?

[deep finch]

Basically the Hist is everywhere. The roots of the trees span all across Tamriel. Those born outside of the Black Marsh just can't hear the hist.

[gaunt bear]

I’m hoping that Beyond Skyrim will enable you to change your gender if you’re an Argonian character.

[plain cosmos]

Settings magic. Should be able to do that anyway.

There is no 'without Magic' in TES. As much as some want it to be so. The very core reality of the setting is predicated on magic.

Even the Hist would be enacting the change magically. They simply use their sap as a conductive medium to do so.

[sweet plume]

Murkmire had an Argonian Male reveal he was once female, the Hist changed the Argonian’s Gender

[plain cosmos]

Oh, absolutely.

I'm just saying that the setting it's SELF is built on magic. It's not a 'Nature AND magic' sort of setting, magic is inherent to everything that happens.

So there is ultimately no doing anything without Magic, be it digesting food or cellular reproduction. And not changing gender.

[sweet plume]

Oblivion & Skyrim only players when looking at Morrowind & ESO

[plain cosmos]

Even in Skyrim at least, the lore books make it pretty clear that Magic is an inherent part of everything. There is no 'without' magic in the setting, not even the magical dead zones of D&D.

Different peoples simply use, manipulate, and exploit that inherent magical nature of the world in different ways.

[fathom jewel]

Even the dwemer seem to be at least partially 'contaminated' by magic, it seems. Pity - they are admirable for their steam and geothermal technology, which surpasses anything even the Altmer can do (except when using magic.) I very much like how the Dwemer tweaked their nose at the Aedra and Daedra, demonstrating how they were false gods.

And speaking of the dwemer: I just ran into a tidbit of info. Apparently the conjurer Falion, who can be found in and near Morthal in Skyrim, claims to have wandered the planes of Oblivion and.......encountered Dwemer. This is intriguing. The obvious question: which plane, and why would the Dwemer be there? I remember hearing or reading that the Dwemer souls were all supposed to be merged into one to become the 'soul' of Numidium, and with Numidium gone, so would the Dwemer souls be no more. But Falion contradicts this.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, the Dwemer were full on magic.

That their magic blended more towards magitech doesn't undermine the magic involved.

[sweet plume]

Ya know I know the ESO devs have pitched to Bethesda to explore the mysteries of the Dwemer to no avail

The best we get is learning of new Steam based Machinery among theories about what they were used for

Although I don’t know if the fans would want the Dwemer to get a full on deep dive, if they prefer it stays rather mysterious completely.

[brisk perch]

Personally, I like it when they answer some of our questions, but then give us even more questions than we started with. Opens up more opportunities for theorizing.

[fathom jewel]

Why is it that the dwemer remind me (vaguely) of the dwarves of teutonic/germanic/scandinavian legend? If I remember right, those dwarves were also constantly tinkering with things to make machines that sometimes almost seemed to be alive, were master blacksmiths, and had a constant beef with the Asgardian deities.

[sweet plume]

Because that’s exactly what they are, Dwemer are called Dwarves as well in The Elder Scrolls, the difference is that instead if being a type of short Human, they are Short Elves.

[radiant sonnet]

Hello, I need help and would like to ask for an opinion on my TES lore that I made. It’s about my Dragonborn’s family members and tree as Nordic tribes like the Skaals and also vampire clans. I gave them a blessing: greater magicka bonus and would like to make sure this makes sense from another POV or not. Idk where to talk about this but here.

[fathom jewel]

Well, the Nords aren't particularly big fans of magic, but perhaps the family tree of your PC is an exception to this. Or, perhaps there is some Altmer blood somewhere in the family tree.

[radiant sonnet]

There’s some Nords that do magic. And just because they don’t like it doesn’t mean every Nord shouldn’t do it. I know that they don’t trust it anymore, but maybe one day they should accept it. I know these times are tough for them. The Oblivion Crisis, the Great Collapse, and the Great War with elves using magic, I get that. Anyway, I think these group of Nords are the exception like you said, also there’s no other blood but their own, so no they don’t have Altmer blood. Is it harmful to have a Nord embrace magic as their favorite?

Would you like me to explain what I have in mind? I was gonna explain some more about this.

Also, I found this Reddit post. I like coming back to it because even the first arch mage was a Nord and I assume he has a statue of himself in the center of the College of Winterhold. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/11mmdaj/do_nords_have_a_talent_for_magic/

[glacial scarab]

Nords disliking magic dates to at least the second era (Lyris mentions it).
The idea of Nords disliking/hating magic was taken from a TES3 line from Great House Dunmer about Nords so there's some bias in the line.

"Nords are treacherous, violent, and greedy. They've invaded our land in the past, and still have designs on our territories. They are fierce warriors, but impulsive and undisciplined. They are superstitious, and easily cowed by displays of powerful sorcery. They can be as simple and trusting as children, and lack the basic elements of courtesy and diplomacy. As mercenaries, they are useful only on the offensive, and their treatment of unarmed civilians and captives is barbaric."

[radiant sonnet]

Okay, but again is it harmful to make a Nord embrace the idea of magic and enjoy it like what a mage would do? Not every single Nord, just a couple. I may have at least a couple of my Nord characters that don’t use it, but my Dragonborn and her family, in my lore, are supposed to be “blessed” with more magicka. That’s in the beginning of the 4th era, before the Great Collapse. I don’t have a problem with Nords being barbarians, but I don’t think a Nord can’t do magic, surely they’re capable of doing that if they want to.

[pastel sorrel]

There's Nords who are still mages, they just aren't exactly in the majority when it comes to the traditional cultures of theirs

See also the Clever Men and Women, witch hermit sorts following the old ways

Shalidor himself was a Nord.

[radiant sonnet]

Yeah, I found the Reddit link about all of this. I installed a loading screen mod talking about the “clever men”.

[pastel sorrel]

a Nord embracing magic happens multiple times even there in TES5. They probably don't have as much intrinsic aptitude for it as often simply because they don't exactly foster it as often and the lack of elven blood probably impacts that too, but even the Altmer aren't all mages

[radiant sonnet]

Just a quick goofy af question: isn’t the Thu’um also magic, but from their mouths and not hands? 🤨

[pastel sorrel]

Most people overall aren't mages, and some probably could never be, but many could with effort at least do the equivalent of D&D's cantrips

The thu'um is magic, yes

Ultimately the entire Aurbis is magic. It's just manifesting and utilized in different ways.

[radiant sonnet]

Oh yeah okay. I’m not calling Nords hypocrites, but I thought it was funny that shouting is fine, but shooting magic from you hands is a RED FLAG to them. But yeah like you said, magic functions differently.

[pastel sorrel]

Even the same overall form of magic isn't typically performed the same between two practitioners

Same brush, but different artists.

[radiant sonnet]

Yeah. What I was thinking about my OC’s family is that after the Oblivion Crisis, the “magical barriers” Jauffre mentioned are would still be weak, and meteors started falling from the sky. They are Aetherius meteors from Aetherius itself. I know that it’s an afterlife thing, not an entity, but I thought of an idea on how my OC’s family members possess extra more magicka and pass it down to their newer generations. I assume that Aetherius has some kind of source of magicka? It’s like a “curse” or an “infliction” like how it spreads to all members of the family and later on gets it controlled, but it is rather a blessing to most of them. Anyone that marries that family member must go through their own ritual where they get the blessing from the meteor that they kept in their place, their child must have the full blessing from both of their parents, not half of it.

So my Nord Dragonborn, or other names like Sky Nord or Aetherial Nord, would have 100+ magicka bonus and 50% magicka regeneration, making these Nords like her magically powerful to an Altmer. These Nords do not have Altmer blood or any other kind of blood, just their own.

That’s what I want to explain, but I didn’t want to throw that here right away. Only for those who are interested in learning more of this.

Also because of who these groups of Nords are, they’re a Nordic tribe like the Skaals. The Skaals are a tribe of Nords in Solstheim. The Sky Nords or their family name Youngblood, are located in Cyrodiil.

What I want to ask is that if the meteor thing is a good idea or not. This is just something logical that makes these Nords blessed, without having or needing any mixed blood in them.

[gaunt bear]

Something I’d like to mention (to add to my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction notes) is that the opening of the Breach is allowing/causing all kinds of new magic to be created/rediscovered (since Alexius has had problems getting his time-distorting magic to work until now, according to Dorian). So my question is: what would certain magical organizations/individuals (such as the College of Winterhold, the Augur of Dunlain, the Synod, the Thalmor, House Telvanni and/or Neloth) do if they sensed the new magic “unleashed” by the Breach.

I’ve already got that the Psijic Order are concerned enough with the Breach to side with the Inquisition.

[radiant sonnet]

I actually forgot to mention this, I think Aetherius is an afterlife realm by the Aedrics, the Aedra. Maybe the Divines themselves? So basically the Aedrics blessed these people the Aetherius material.

[plain cosmos]

Aetherius predates the Aedra. It's primary inhabitants seem to be the Magne Ge

Or, at least, the categorical grouping of the Aedra.

Depending on how one defines Aedra, it may even categorically disqualify them.

[gaunt bear]

@plain cosmos Thank you for answering my previous question about the Daedric Princes. I’ve got a new question now, this time about magic.

[plain cosmos]

That one is probably even more nebulous, as the rules on how magic behaves and functions are... Haphazardly piecemeal at best.

[gaunt bear]

That’s so. But what I’m asking about is the Breach and the brand new magic it’s enabling. How would other mage factions react to it.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, sorry, I thought there was a question coming, not that it had already been asked.

[gaunt bear]

It’s right here.

[plain cosmos]

Probably pretty varied. Some, like the Psijics, would likely try to contain or restrict it.

Others, like the Synod and College of Whispers would try to exploit it for their own social and political gain. The Telvanni as well. Oh, and Necromancers of course.

Some of the more academic groups may simply try to understand the behaviours and systems it follows. Not that they've really successfully done so with conventional magic, and they've had thousands of years to play with that.

[gaunt bear]

If you need it, I’ve provided some more information on the Breach (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Breach||) and the Anchor (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor||). I’ll also say that, in my fanfiction, the Anchor and what it can do sends the Thalmor’s ambitions into overdrive, which will inevitably lead them to ||their worst defeat, ever||.

[gaunt bear]

I’m pretty sure that the Synod will attempt to use the excuse “Purely to safeguard the Empire, of course.” To mask their interest in the Anchor (which can be half-true, at least).

[sweet plume]

So I looked up how many Soldiers make up a Legion, and it stated Nominally 6000.

[plain cosmos]

5000-6000 seems to be the norm.

Which, combined with known Numbered Legions, makes the death toll in the Red Ring in excess of 100,000 for the Legion..

[sweet plume]

Honestly it’s crazy because you realize that one of the Legion’s that killed off half the Citizens of Bravil were composed of that many Soldiers

Like obviously the game can’t show that level of soldiers but the thought of it alone.

[plain cosmos]

Pretty standard for a Roman Legion, when you factor in Cavalry and support groups.

Which makes sense, as they were intended to function as basically an entire army.

[sweet plume]

I think it makes more sense now with the various Legions attacking the Alliances.

Granted they all failed, the only one to succeed was Euraxia’s people in Northern Elsweyr and even then some Legions stopped fighting and instead opted to serve and protect like the Shields of Senchal in Southern Elsweyr.

[glacial scarab]

Imperial legion has more cohorts then a Roman legion though

[glacial scarab]

A Roman legion maybe. But a Cyrodillic Legion is unknown since their cohorts go up to at least 33.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:An_Ancient_Love_Letter

33rd Cohort, 2nd Legion

It rather bumps the number up.

A 33rd cohort is mentioned in ESO, while Roman Legions were known to only have 10 in a single Legion. If there were 33 cohorts, the number of men would equal ~16,000 in a single Legion, instead of the standard ~5000 men in the Roman Empire. - UESP

[fathom jewel]

Some history: in the Peloponnesian War, Athens actually caused serious problems for Sparta for the first 3/4 of the war. The Spartans dominated land operations while the Athenians dominated the Sea, giving them much greater mobility. However, the Spartans eventually learned naval warfare and at that point simply overpowered a foolish and overextended Athens. It seems to me that the Thalmor could get themselves in the same difficulties. The Legion, if it recovers both its strength and spirit, could take Elsyweyr and Valenwood from the Dominion. If the Thalmor then rely on their naval forces to protect Summerset, it's an undependable advantage that could over time prove to be an ephemeral advantage. Something to consider for future lore.

[pastel sorrel]

On the contrary, Summerset's naval defense has historically been its most dependable

It's never been successfully invaded by naval forces in its entire known history, they've always been fended off

The only exception being the Numidium's siege, and it gets a pass on that since, you know, it's the Numidium.

Sparta and Athens aren't a good example for Summerset, because it has a major home field advantage it can fall back on in the event of counterattack.

And it could hypothetically still lose, but it'll take a concerted effort from like half of Tamriel together.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. While the supposed advantage of Skyrim's defensive mountains have been shown to be less than effective (it's been invaded successfully multiple times) it took a semi-divine super weapon to invade Summerset.

[sweet plume]

Here we go

[gaunt bear]

Could just be me, but it looks like it’s incomplete… but that’s just me.

[brisk perch]

https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/j5/eixbb82q7u29.gif
Completed version

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, doesn't really help the breakdown when they orient it wrong...

[pastel sorrel]

Damn they really out here making the c0da symbol huh

[plain cosmos]

Oriented properly in the animation, it fits rather well with the calendar.

Gets a little janky in the last quarter though.

[fathom jewel]

Herma Mora, Jephre, Mephala, Meridia....wondering about that combination.

[pastel sorrel]

The cast-away ideas and the incorporated ideas of the world, darkness and brightness

mirror images

(I would guess)

[abstract ledge]

We didnt know the official orientation till the animation reveal

[plain cosmos]

That's fair of course.

[sweet plume]

Skingrad, Order of The Lamp, Y’ffre, Mephala, Meridia, Hermaeus Mora…

[lime osprey]

Are there any bethesda employees that can answer a lore question? Idk what's under Nda

The community seems to be torn on this. But I was hoping to get a solid answer about what skin pigment the dwemer are. If possible

[fathom jewel]

If I'm understanding the current lore, the Order of the Lamp is the military/security arm of the Mage's guild, composed of battle-tested knights. Now, if we look at each daedra individually: Meridia - extremely tyrannical, but a celebrator of life and light as well as an enemy of the undead. Mephala - a weaver of men's destinies, associated with intrigue, lies, terror, murder and secrets. She is also associated very closely with assassin guilds - shadowscales, morag tong, even the DB. Herma Mora - the keeper of forbidden knowledge. Y'ffre - the Forest God, especially important to the Bosmer. Hmmm......okay: I'll assume the Lamp Knights honor Meridia because of her inherent opposition to Mannimarco and his acolytes. Not sure why they would be interested in the other three, though.

[fathom jewel]

Just look at Yagram Bagarn in ES3.

[gaunt bear]

@plain cosmos Thank you again for answering my first two questions, now I’ve got another one:

It has to do with the ancient, inherent magic of Skyhold (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Skyhold||). Divath Fyr (is that how that’s spelled?) learns that a Corprus victim was somehow cured of all her symptoms by completely shedding her skin (quite literally, ||leaving her completely naked for a laugh or two||). Upon arrival, Divath is able to sense the immense age of both Skyhold and the magic within it (“This place is old. Very old. So old I almost feel young again.”), but is still stumped on why a Corprus victim was cured by it.

My question is: What do you think of this idea, and should I refine it?

[glacial scarab]

Given Yagrum is infected with Corprus I doubt his skin is the correct colour.

[fathom jewel]

There's several pics of Yagrum Bagarn here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Yagrum_Bagarn

[fathom jewel]

Some of the pics on that page are from Morrowind, and others are from Legends. The Legends ones are more detailed, and suggest the normal skin tone of dwemer is very human-looking (not the ashen look of the dunmer or the light golden hue of the Altmer.)

[plain cosmos]

The ashen skin of the Dunmer has a pretty universally accepted origin and that comes AFTER the Dwemer are gone. So it's highly unlikely the Dwemer would be ashen.

As for the Altmer... Their skin seems to largely be an exaggeration of early Elven skin tones, with Ayleid and Chimer being similar, though less exaggerated

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/adventure-time-jake-the-dog-existential-existential-crisis-gif-22706230

I just bore witness to the grand merger of TES and 40k. And it includes a Yagrum.

[lavish kayak]

The main story for the next Elder Scrolls game should be the player character deciding whether to side with the Tamrielic Empire or the Aldmiri Dominion in a war that will decide the fate of the Empire.

[fathom jewel]

Actually it would be great if they BOTH lost. If anything, all the other provinces should gang up on Cyrodiil and Summerset and beat them into utterly helpless and prostrate submission. After all, you don't see the dunmer, redguard, bretons or khajiit invading other people's provinces and trying to establish empires. The bosmer, argonians and nords historically haven't been quite as peaceful, but they have been nowhere near as irritating as the cyrodiilians and the altmer.

[plain cosmos]

Nah, Empire devolves into a succession crisis as Mede's heir is passed over for the throne by the corrupt members of the Elder Council, temporarily taking them out of the picture.

Then, the Dominion launches a new invasions of Hammerfell, seeking to take the territory before they've fully recovered from the 2nd War, and while the Empire is in no position to oppose them.

This triggers various factions in Hammerfell it's self, along with the rise of a believed Hoonding, in the face of a renewed Dominion invasion.

[gaunt bear]

Dragonborn: And, once again, it’ll be up to me to do all the heavy lifting while also picking up the pieces, right?

[fathom jewel]

Wait - whatever the dominion does, will it still pursue this 'Culling' thing? What precisely is that anyway? The lore sources are a bit...scarce.

[glacial scarab]

That's really because the Empire was originally Breton before the Imperials were badly made up and thrown in.

Also the Redguards owe their existence to invading other peoples lands to establish their own Empire given what they did to the Nedes and others of Hammerfell.
Khajiit has stuff in the past with Darloc Brae as he pushed into the Ayleid homeland of Cyrodiil.

[sweet plume]

That really makes me wonder where the series would be if the Bretons were in the role of The Imperials.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly given how the Imperials are written probably the exact same.

The issue of Imperial writing is that you could easily replace them which is silly because Imperial lore is tell but never show.

This is why Shezarr has gone full John Cena as no NPC says his name but everyone who isn't a Cyrodiil has no issue talking of their version of Lorkhan.

[sweet plume]

I always found it odd really, is there a reason they don’t want to show?

[glacial scarab]

No known reason. People can assume and make guesses but nothing concrete.
Just every time the Imperials appear ingame they have no character other then being "we're part of an Empire". (even then the Empire isn't unique to them since they stole it from the Ayleids).

[sweet plume]

I’m surprised ZOS hasn’t done much in regards to them really.

[glacial scarab]

The issue for ZOS is Oblivion and Morrowind did nothing for the Cyrodiils but also both "Colovian" and "Nibenese" Cyrodiils are in base game and they won't contradict it as seen with the Legacy of the Bretons where the city Bretons like the ones in High Rock are not explored but a new group the Druids of Galen on the Systres have the lore to them.

Like the Systres leads to the idea of Druids returning but TES3 and 4 give you zero idea with the Cyrodiils. They're just there as an Empire.

[sweet plume]

Just seems strange is all, if there is really nothing there to begin with wouldn’t it make sense to explore that?

[glacial scarab]

It generally is. it's weird that despite going to Cyrodiil you only know books about their so called culture and religion.
They're basically set dressing at this point.

[fathom jewel]

Well then - it might be fun if the Imperials and Altmer had another war so nasty that they fought each other to total exhaustion and societal collapse. Cyrodiil could split into Nibenese and Colovian areas formally, and the lore for each could be thoroughly explored. The Altmer could be in such terrible shape that they also lose control of Elsweyr and Valenwood, returning the miserable portion left of their forces to Summerset, which collapses into anarchy and warring city states. Hopefully this state of affairs would continue for a long time so every other province has some peace and quiet to settle whatever internal problems they have and form alliances and confederations between each other after that.

[glacial scarab]

That won't do anything to "fix" them. Like it really won't the only thing that happens is the Imperials lose the "Empire" part of their character and that's it. Being Kingdoms only changes the title

[proven moss]

A friend and I have talked about this at length. We both think ZOS should have taken way more creative liberties in their depiction of Tamriel rather than reproduce earlier games (particulary aggregious with respect to designs from Skyrim and Oblivion). Obviously they had reasons for doing what they did, but massive opportunity lost.

[topaz dome]

It's a mixed bag with me. For instance in the Morrowind expansion I love seeing Vivec still under construction and Ald'ruhn being a tiny Ashlander camp. On the other hand, Seyda Neen and Balmora feel like fan service to me. I'm not even convinced Seyda Neen should exist in this time period but, if it does, I don't believe it should look virtually identical to the Seyda Neen we see in Morrowind.

[glacial scarab]

Seyda Neen in ESO only exists for nostalgia. Right down to there being a Census and Excise Office (the only time that group reappeared since TES3) and there being a Eragalla there.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly imo I feel they should've started in one province and build from there. Would help avoid some of the issues of base game like Breton High Rock being one tileset.

Play on a different scale so you can play with more settlements then the singleplayer games usually get.

[sweet plume]

Balmora existing makes plenty of sense given the backstory of why it does

[plain cosmos]

That said, it's 800 years in the difference. Realistically, Seyda Neen could have been abandoned, rebuilt, abandoned again and rebuilt a second time, in the intervening centuries.

It BEING there isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility

Especially given its size.

[proven moss]

They definitely went more their own way in later expansions, which is good.

[topaz dome]

Yes, I almost said the same thing in my post. I can't help thinking it would have looked different though. I would have liked to see either a smallermore primitive version of the city or a larger city that shrank over the centuries due to adverse weather or cultural issues. To me, Balmora just looks too similar to Morrowind's version of the city to be entirely plausible.

[sweet plume]

I mean look at many of the buildings built long ago still standing today, it’s really not that odd for me really.

[proven moss]

I agree, it is odd. Some old buildings, usually made of stone and of some great importance, survive. Cathedrals in Europe for example. But the rest of the city around them often changes drastically; especially when we're talking centuries.

I would say that longer elvish lifespans probably slow down the changes their cities experience by a good margin, though

A city could have the same leaders, and indeed some of the same residents in the same houses, for centuries.

There's not much of an excuse for human cities though

Riften is a particularly egregious example of a city that should have been way different in the mid 2nd Era compared to the 4th. Not the least because it entirely burned down at least once (probably more given its almost entirely wooden).

[plain cosmos]

In SOME places, sure. In arid environments, even mudbrick structures can survive for hundreds sometimes thousands of years.

They need maintenance over that time, sure. But unless heavily neglected, or torn down, they can persist for every long time periods.

There are some buildings in Jericho that are still in use, and date to the 1st century BCE.

[proven moss]

We're not talking merely about deteriorating materials. But changing tastes, growing and shrinking populations, extensions, new buildings, new laws, new residents, economic upswings and downswings, natural disasters, fires, sacks, etc. Everything taken together really.

[proven moss]

Do you happen to have more details about this?

[plain cosmos]

Not on hand. I'd have to go back though my old Uni stuff to get the specific structures.

But yeah, styles and tastes DO tend to change, though historically it's worked very different than we tend to think of today. Especially for the general population... If it isn't necessary to change, they don't usually do so. So very old buildings remain in use until either damaged, or someone in power forcibly changes them.

[glacial scarab]

Does remind me.
ESOs Imperial city while in ruins the difference scale has more buildings to it.

like the outer wall some or most has buildings on them even the Arboretum which I quite liked. I need to find an image of it and to remember what can be posted in this channel be it a link or the image itself

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/862369928941666314/996129945170485358/Screenshot_20220711_192047.png?ex=65b7f6ce&is=65a581ce&hm=97b3db61d6a3ab80839ba3aa36b1881bda2557df98a314d635a07b884f5e814c&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/862369928941666314/996123619547680909/unknown.png?ex=65b7f0e9&is=65a57be9&hm=fb4eecfaf14ba59e8aed4576a25105499dc767b4bbd38a93fddd2da394707f7e&

Though that's probably more an issue of dungeon over city space. Since you can play with place size and space more if it's intended for combat then a city with NPCs living in it.

[raw grail]

The fact all of Valenwood got covered in base game is so sad

[plain cosmos]

My opinion on ESOs Valenwood is well known... So I won't repeat it here. But I don't think having a full expansion to express it would have solved it's problems.

[fathom jewel]

Old/ancient cities and towns can be quite beautiful precisely because of their antiquity. From what I've heard, there are places in the Fertile Crescent which have been continuously inhabited for 6000-8000 years. Places that have been inhabited for a long time and which have kept many buildings for a lengthy period of time are 'nodes of life.' Remember that part of the appeal of ES is that the tribes and places have long, eventful histories and very distinct cultures. It is a rich and deep tapestry. Look at the following - the Pont Du Gard in Nimes, in Southern France: https://mh-1-bildagentur.panthermedia.net/media/previews/0008000000/08133000/~pont-du-gard-nimes-provence-frankreich_08133962_high.jpg To me, such places and things are almost holy. You can find stuff like this all over the world, and even without a direct religious affiliation, there is something of the sacred about them.

[plain cosmos]

Or at least my problem.s with it.

[sweet plume]

That it is, but right now lore is lore for me.

[sweet plume]

Well in regards to that it’s much Bigger in the 2nd Era, it getting burned down early on the 4th era is what also makes the people decide to move it closer to the center during rebuilding which is why it’s as small as it is In Skyrim.

[sweet plume]

Tamriel as a whole makes me happy as a Lore Nerd.

[glacial scarab]

It's hard to tell properly on size given MMO gigantism.
I think ESO has fewer buildings because it was playing too close to what was portrayed in TES5 despite the fact they could've just played with the scale.

[plain cosmos]

Well it's Lzk hard to tell the size based on Bethesda's miniaturism

There is no way in any sort of hell that Riften, or any other city, is ACTUALLY that size in-universe.

[sweet plume]

Yeah obviously, but even then when I look at Riften in ESO vs Skyrim Riften just portrays to me the Riften that was bigger in the Past.

[waxen elm]

Eso riften is just a scaled up version of skyrims riften. And that riften was a downscaled approximation of what the city is in lore while being able to be run on any modern device at the time within the limitations of the engine and for computers

I always take the look of the cities in game as a "This is what the city looks like but like imagine it 6000 times larger"

[fathom jewel]

This raises a question: Is the population of Tamriel as a whole growing or shrinking, starting from, say, the beginning of the 1st era? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the population from 1st era 01 to 4th era 201, while oscillating over that period, is actually smaller at the end of it.

[proven moss]

There is nothing in lore that suggests so.

We also have to be very cautious when extracting lore information from the games, which are wrapped up in decisions of game design and game development, and as such very hard to uncritically trust

[fathom jewel]

I'm more asking for opinions/perspectives on this. From my perspective, Morrowind's population was probably growing up to the Red Year, where between the destruction of Vivec City by Baar Dau, the consequent eruption of Red Mountain, and the subsequent invasion of southern Morrowind by the Argonians, the population likely took a massive hit. If we look at Cyrodiil, the events of Oblivion and the general state of the province strongly suggested a province in steep decline (included in that is the razing of Kvatch.) The Great War cut down the population another major notch. And then in ES5, Skyrim is an absolute hot mess even before Alduin shows up to eradicate Helgen. Considering that Hammerfell took a severe beating in the Great War and that Summerset, Valenwood and Elsweyr all undoubtedly suffered large manpower losses in that war, my guess is that Tamriel is lower in population than at any time since the end of the Merethic. Just IMHO.

[proven moss]

Oh sure, the 4th Era almost undoubtedly has probably experienced population decline.
In your original comment you speculated a population decline starting in the 1st Era, which I don't see evidence for.

If I were to guess, I'd say the population has probably gone up and down over the centuries and millennia. Like the 3rd Era probably saw higher population than much of the 2nd Era during the chaotic Interregnum

[fathom jewel]

OK, I see what you're saying. 👍

[raw grail]

It might not have solved its problems, but I think it's pretty universally agreed upon that base game was kinda bad

And that the expansions do a lot better with lore

I. Hate. Language filters. Why must I use softer language than the game itself has

Whatever. Sorry for the ghost ping, I'm not typing all that up again. This is dumb

[real oar]

Discord is 13+, it does not have the same age rating as some of the games

[raw grail]

Is this a discord partnered server?

If so fair nuff. If not I don't see the issue

[real oar]

Do you mean the Official Bethesda Game Studios Discord, yes.

[raw grail]

The game is exposing them to the same stuff so there's no moral ground to stand on

[raw grail]

I mean: is the server partnered with Discord, and therefore has to follow stricter guidelines and rules on Discord?

[proven moss]

Forgiven

[raw grail]

Cuz otherwise I'm confident swearing is allowed on discord, regardless of whether 13 year olds are present or not

In fact, even partnered servers allow swearing

[real oar]

You can review the #rules for this Discord channel

[raw grail]

So actually I take my question back, my b

[raw grail]

I know the rules for the discord channel but I'm saying there's not a good reason for the rules to exist. All it does is make discussion harder

Not gonna change anything anyways tho. I'm just complaining to the void. I'll shush

[fathom jewel]

Question on the Maormer - can someone explain to me why they seem to have some sort of existential beef with the Altmer? Granted, the Altmer can be a bit snooty, but wouldn't it be easier if the Maormer simply ignored them? I don't understand this state of war that has existed now for several thousand years.

[raw grail]

The pocket guides talk about it, mostly. My memory of it is that the Maormer were exiled from Aldmeris or Summerset, and they've been beefing ever since

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Other_Lands#Pyandonea

ESO provides a take from them, too
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Chosen_People_of_Aldmeris

PGE1 also writes of them, but for some reason, it speaks of them as if they're united with the Altmer. Imo this might be Tiber-era propaganda just associating his enemies with each other, but who knows
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region

[sweet plume]

I would be curious about the real truth behind it, King Orgnum hates The High Elves after all

[fathom jewel]

ok, found something - it seems orgnum was an aldmer, and a stunningly wealthy one. Still in Aldmeris, he tried to overthrow the ruling regime. He failed. He and his followers were expelled from Aldmeris towards Pyandonea, with some sort of 'impenetrable mist' created to block any return. It looks like Orgnum views the Altmer in Summerset as a useful proxy to beat on and take out his frustrations. This would make the entire conflict between Maormer and Altmer fundamentally silly and pointless. The entire Maormer culture appears to be based on a visceral, febrile hatred of the Altmer, followed by an almost equal hatred of everyone else. Not a healthy culture. Orgnum himself is an immortal mage who gets younger as time passes (okay...) and either he or his followers proclaim him to be the Satakal of the Redguard mythos (or something to that effect.) The Maormer are also obsessed with snakes or sea snakes or something. This is definitely not a happy-go-lucky tribe....

[sweet plume]

I doubt every Sea Elf is into hating the High Elves, I think a bunch of them couldn’t care less and would rather live in peace

[fathom jewel]

That would be a very good thing.

[plain cosmos]

Depends on the social conditioning.

I think a lot of real world parallels could be drawn regarding that... But when you're raised to hate another people, and there isn't a lot of room for positive exposure or sympathy towards said people...

Hate comes very easily.

[glacial scarab]

"Every day, the immortal king of the Maormer nurses his grudge for thousands of years of exile. Retribution against the Altmer is practically all we live for." - Castire
Comes from a Maormer in ESO.

[gaunt bear]

Dragonborn, upon hearing about this: What would you say, if I were to offer you an opportunity for revenge against the Thalmor?

[robust lintel]

That'd be some Navy

[fathom jewel]

Wondering why the Maormer didn't play a role in the Great War. You'd think they would have seen an opportunity for themselves.

[plain cosmos]

Maormer sailor 'What in Oblivion is a Thalmor?'

[plain cosmos]

Assuming they are capable.

They did lose their entity navy in their last attempt. May be out of trees and going the way of Easter Island.

[gaunt bear]

Dragonborn: “In short, they’re the faction that rules the Aldmeri Dominion, and a bunch of knife-eared tyrants.

[sweet plume]

Never forget the Summerset High Elf & Sea Elf Couple

I was like “Romance! Yes!”

[sweet plume]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dion_Hassildor

BTW, while he doesn’t mention his family, his last name is an indication he’s an ancestor of the Count of Skingrad in Oblivion.

"You know, the life of a merchant can be pretty adventuresome too! Just yesterday, I got a parchment cut the size of a …. Oh never mind."
"You know, I once commanded forces to lay seize to … bah. I've been told I reminisce too much instead of selling.
So, what'll you have?"
"Swinging swords, selling swords … it's all the same in the end. Sore feet and a full coin purse.
Speaking of coin, what can I get you?"

The part where he mentions he once commanded forces to lay Seize to makes it the most obvious he was someone important.

[proven moss]

It should be "to lay siege"

[plain gyro]

So, my buddy got me into elder scrolls online - as someone that's never played an elder scrolls game before - where can I go to learn about the different factions and such - and now I have the itch to play skyrim itself - should I be trying any other games? I do have game pass

[deep finch]

Best spot for any ES info;
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page

[plain gyro]

Solid, thank you!

[sweet plume]

New ESO Zone

[raw grail]

The only games that come close to scratching the same itch as Skyrim's open world are Oblivion and Fallout 3 imo. Fallout 4 comes kinda close, but even Fallout New Vegas and Outer Worlds (imo) feel very different from Skyrim

Smth about Skyrim just strikes a chord that nothing else seems to

[fathom jewel]

The only thing I liked about Oblivion was, in fact, its open world and that tremendous freedom to explore over widely varying terrain. FO3 had that too. FO4 less so - I agree. Still not bad. Outer Worlds was not appealing to me - the 'worlds' were quite small and limited, and it got stale rather quickly for me. I got thru one whole playthrough and simply couldn't bring myself to do another. Skyrim knocked it out of the park for me in terms of open world - how I absolutely LOVED wandering around that place!

[raw grail]

Agreed on all fronts, although I do wish I'd played more outer worlds

I'll roll back round to it some time

[dusky nexus]

this is the best lore i have ever seen https://twitter.com/UESP_net/status/1747775453413159122

UESP (@UESP_net) on X

Pictured: King Odar the Brave being seen with his lover Alassi, by his wife Queen Ysabel. King Odar was assassinated the next day.

Twitter · Jan 18, 2024, 12:18 AM

[plain cosmos]

But anyway, I know when I played in the beta, Ysabel was a very short lived monarch...

[unkempt tide]

Please remember to keep the chat appropriate, thanks.

[robust lintel]

Feel like I missed some lore

[plain cosmos]

Isn't that always the case for everyone though?

TES hasn't quite hit Warhammer levels yet, where there's so much lore you need to actively specialise... But it's definitely getting there.

[sweet plume]

https://youtu.be/0u0GqMZGxgM?si=ZkaBtuQvW36xUzsh

[fathom jewel]

watching the video now.....curious how this vampire clan operates.

Hmmmm.......if Molag Bal is the father of vampires, why does he tolerate this group? This vamp clan seems to be dedicated to using Molag Bal's 'gifts' against him and his acolytes.

[sweet plume]

Because it’s really only when they die that Bal holds claim over there soul

https://youtu.be/LHq-m8SzUIk?si=f9jGF4qzBLB2TxmR

[glacial scarab]

The Ravenwatch are going to be easy to destroy TBH. Expose one of them as Vampires and then they'll all get looked at and it's someone where politics of them being Vampires is a big weakness as all it'll take is some feud or someone looking to grasp power to cause it.

[shell basin]

Well. Except that some of them ARE known as vampires. Not necessarily to the entire population, but to the ones that matter. For instance, in ESO, all the other nobles of Rivenspire - and indeed King Emeric who rules the whole of High Rock and indeed the Daggerfall Covenant - know Verandis Ravenwatch for a vampire. ||And by the end of the Rivenspire questline in ESO, they also know his apprentice Gwendis for a vampire as well. It's a major plot point.||

||And when you first travel to The Reach, as part of that DLC, Verandis is present, and is immediately recognised for what he is - and at first, not allowed in, but is simply being threatened and told he has to leave, but no actual violence is offered against him. He is in fact acting in good faith, trying to save the humanity of the region from the vampire/werewolf conspiracy of the Grey Host - an organisation that he himself started centuries ago in its prior incarnation as the "Grey Council", to work out how vampires, werewolves and mortals could live alongside each other without the predator/prey relationship: only for Verandis to lose control of the organisation and its narrative, and resign from them before they became the Grey Host and went on a bloody war of conquest and subjugation which was ultimately defeated.||

[fathom jewel]

This sounds like a pretty neat story. The idea of an immortal being (or clan of beings) who forego their anti-human 'drives' in order to live in peace and who dedicate their existence to scientific/research pursuits is quite admirable.

[glacial scarab]

TBF in ESO ||The Daggerfall Covernant is one that has stronger ties together before you get to the Orcs. Though Verandis's plot really is "I caused all of this... twice".||

||Just outside of ESO I don't expect the Ravenwatch to last long. All it'll take is some King or Queen wanting to undermine Shornhelm or something like that to do it. As it's really an issue of the more people that know the higher the risk it gets out and causes them issues||

[upper field]

Man High Rock is just a political nightmare isn't it?

[plain cosmos]

As it SHOULD be. It should be a microcosm for Medieval Europe.

[upper field]

Fair.

[fathom jewel]

Wait - I'd prefer if HR was handled differently. We got a taste of a medieval Europe-influenced theme for ES4, and I found it painfully dull (apologies to all the fans of Oblivion.) I'd love HR to be weird. There ought to be opportunity to do just that - the direnni and orc influence, druids in the west reach, horse culture around the Bjoulsae, some level of influence from the Ayleids (probably small), nords (again, small) and redguards (yet again, small), the fact that the adamantine tower is close by, etc....and who knows? Maybe the Sload are sneaking around in isolated parts of the province, along with the Falmer in glacial valleys far to the east. In other words, I'd have no problem with BGS making an effort to make the province very unique and surprising. Of course - maybe they won't. But one can always hope, even if it's delusion. 😉

[plain cosmos]

Highrock should be a combination of Arthurian Mythos, and Medieval Europe Microcosm.

That Oblivion utterly dropped the ball in basically every way, doesn't mean that Highrock needs to be different than it's always been indicated to be.

But how it's always been described doesn't mean that has to be as... Well as dull as it's been executed.

[last sage]

Let's stay on topic please

[sweet plume]

I think at the end of the day the base game pretty much defined High Rock aesthetics … well… not all of it as Jehanna is still a thing, but High Isle was another Flavor of French aesthetics so I doubt Jehanna will be that different in that regard.

[plain cosmos]

There's a lot of range in 'Medieval European Fantasy' though. Range which isn't typically utilised particularly well in TES.

For instance, something as simple as Daggerfall having Milanese Style Armour, Wayrest having Gothic, and Glenumbra using Greenwich.

[sweet plume]

Question, is there a particular difference between High Rock Style vs High Isle Style?

[plain cosmos]

There are some variations... But most of the armour styles in ESO are a mismatch klof various historical styles, often from different periods and different parts of the world.

So you can't really draw that same sorts of direct stylistic trends as you could historically.

Part of that stems, too, from the armours in many case simply... Not really working in a functional sense. The amount of breastplates that have a point down towards the navel are staggering. Despite the fact such a design would realistically prevent you from bending over.

[sweet plume]

I still hope for base game to one day be given the DLC Treatment in a redesign type of way

[plain cosmos]

It's always a risky gamble, updating old zones. Look at the... Iffy reception of WoW Cataclysm.

[sweet plume]

People were even upset when ZOS just changed the Redguard and Orc Styles

[plain cosmos]

Yeah.

Still, pertaining to Highrock in particular, I think any potential refinement of its identity needs, first and foremost, for Bethesda to decide how big their world is.

AND TO STICK TO IT IN UNIVERSE.

Is Daggerfall a Kingdom, or a City State? Because they are very much not the same thing.

If it's a Kingdom, you can very easily play around more with ideas of cultural identity and differentiation within a concept. Allowing you to play up that Microcosm idea.

If it's a City State, well... There's less room to reasonably do that.

[sweet plume]

I still imagine how different High Rock would be if they weren’t limited by limited amount of assets and such

Which is why if it undergoes a redesign I wouldn’t be upset since the devs would have wanted to do it proper justice if given the opportunity

[plain cosmos]

Probably less than you think, given High Isle.

[sweet plume]

Probably but High Isle I think was meant to be more so leaning into Wayrest’s identity from what I recall hearing

Which I think if the game had the proper development would have reflected that better considering the base game architecture isn’t that different in High Rock

[plain cosmos]

At least they got the Foregrip right on the 2-handed sword in the trailer.

Too many games treat that section of the blade as... Well, bladed, and the protrusions as decoration or something.

It's really there to allow for a wider grip, especially against polearms, and the protrusions are an extra guard to protect your hands.

But I digress. That's not really important, and is just something that hit me whole trying to decipher the stylistic influences on the armour...

It's MOSTLY late Gothic, early Greenwich. But it's shoulders are more Milanese.

[sweet plume]

Although I wonder if that’s because of Bethesda not wanting anything but that aesthetic for Bretons or a reluctance to do anything different style wise since people just associate Bretons as the French People

It’s hard to say why

[plain cosmos]

All I know, is I do not approve.

The Bretons could be so much more than just... Bland misrepresentations of Medieval France.

Especially given that none of those later plate armour styles were French.

[sweet plume]

I think as far back as Arena’s Cover Art, Bretons have always been seen as that

[sweet plume]

Which ones, The High Isle ones?

[plain cosmos]

Really all Breton styles.

Their influences seem to be almost entirely Greenwich (English) Milanese (Italian) and Gothic (German).

[sweet plume]

Is that bad though? You mentioned having at least Three Styles was satisfying

[plain cosmos]

Really, truth be told, French manufactured plate was pretty shoddy. So the wealthy just imported it from one of those 3 anyway.

Full Plate is actually a pretty late addition to the Medieval period, and those super common in fantasy, was not particularly common in reality.

Sufficient quantities of good iron and steel were just too difficult to manufacture for most of the medieval period.

What most Bretons would be wearing would be Lamellars, or Brigandines.

But everyone and their mother uses Plate Armours in TES, so that largely renders everything else obsolete.

Still, what we see in ESO isn't explicitly drawn from any particular real world style.

Rather, it's an amalgam of styles, with an artistic style layered over that.

Which DID happen. Artistic expression through armour was incredibly common, especially in the late Medieval period. Elizabeth I basically used it to haul England out of bankruptcy, by allowing nobles to design and purchase armour from the Greenwich Armoury (her father's private armourers).

Still, the courtly show-armours, and the functional battlefield armours, share structural elements which make them both Greenwich Armours.

So the actual, core style of armour in TES is pretty universal as far as plate armours go. Even if the artistic motifs are different.

[glacial scarab]

Which was always silly from the reaction to it.
Which lead to the "Ancestral" motifs being remodels of the old gear when "Ancestral" motifs could've been some old armours like Chimer, Atmoran, Alessian and etc.

[sweet plume]

Sucks I know

Because that just makes it annoying in the sense that any idea to possibly redo base game architecture among other things would be null and void with how people react.

[plain cosmos]

It sorta plays into my opinion that... While the Motif system is great in ESO, and the best we can really look forward to in an MMO... I don't think it should be adopted in the main games.

At least not in that way. But that's a gameplay thing and not for here.

[sweet plume]

I am already digging the Skingrad Scarlet like vibe in comparison to Leyawiin’s Ivory style

[plain cosmos]

I have been distracted by Palworld, and haven't seen anything since the trailer.

[sweet plume]

Apparently Rivercrest from Blades will be in this chap but I doubt it personally

[outer sorrel]

Wait is gold road released?

[sweet plume]

Nope, not yet, gotta wait till June

[plain cosmos]

Eww. June. I hate June. I get older in June.

Every single year. It's weird.

[sweet plume]

I love June just because of game reveals.

[fathom jewel]

School's out in June! My favorite month of the year. 😃

[sweet plume]

So apparently Rivercrest from Blades may be the Town overtaken by the Green coming from Valenwood’s Borders.

[raw grail]

Okay. Fair. Bringandine!

I wish more games had brigandine

Iirc steel soldier (from blades + cc) has gambeson under the breastplate at least

[abstract ledge]

https://images.uesp.net/4/49/ON-item-armor-House_Mornard.jpg does the heavy one count as pointing

[sweet plume]

I genuinely love the House Mornard Style

I also love House Dufort’s Armor

The Artwork always leaves me wowed with how beautiful it looks

[deep finch]

The ESO artists are top tier for sure.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly I doubt it's Rivercrest. It's thing with blades has the Bloodfall Kingdom which really doesn't make sense on the Strid.

[pastel sorrel]

Rivercrest is more up north near Hammerfell IIRC

[plain cosmos]

I would say yes.

[fathom jewel]

It's friday and my mind is beginning to wander. Some of the discussions I've seen today are directing those thoughts towards considering the following question: what exceptionally interesting things could be explored in ES6 that sort of 'call out' for focus or special treatment?

I'd like to suggest some possibilities. For instance, I would love the BGS crew to explore these aspects of a HF-based title: the Sload, the Nedes, the Rourken and Yokuda (this last obviously requiring a journey across the western seas.) I would really enjoy seeing all of these tribes 'fleshed out' as part of the overall storytelling in the title. I don't care how it's done - either in the base game or with DLC/expansions. And PLEASE - I really don't want to encounter Sword Singing as simply a differently animated version of the Thu'um, with all the rest of the quests boiling down to a large set of 'go to this place, do a dungeon crawl and retrieve the item thing.' I'm looking for involved stories, and using the tribes and history of the province would be one of the ways to do it. Does anyone have other ideas?

I'm suggesting this tribal and historical focus for ES6 because there are still (in my view) plenty of lore gaps that can be filled for all of the ones I mentioned. Some are clearly more in need of it than others, but all of them could do with more effort to complete their lore.

[plain cosmos]

It depends entirely on the region the game focuses on.

Personally, things really on my list, assuming Hammerfell and nothing else, are...

The Hoonding. Ideally, I'd want to see them as the antagonist.

The Sinking of Yokuda. Earth Mages, Natural Disaster, or the Ansei? Pick one.

The Yokudan Conquest of Hammerfell. No more of the 'Uuuuh we just wanted sanctuary' garbage. They were conquerors, explore that and accept the ramifications of it.

The Rourken. Not only are they a good basis to explore the actual Dwemer culture, but how was a renegade clan of the Dwemer able to be swept up in whatever happened at Red Mountain? Were they aware of something going on? Did they have internal questions about their impending fate?

The Great War. Use Hammerfell to discredit everything in Legends, and let me hunt down the slanderous old drunk who keeps spreading that terribly cobbled together, rambling heap of a story every time he gets 3 drinks in at the local tavern.

[sweet plume]

Someone’s salty about Legends. XD

[glacial scarab]

It's really just the great war story that's the big issue,
Suffers a bit from lol more daedra

[sweet plume]

Yeah I know

[plain cosmos]

Salt does not cover it. The burning intensity of my ire is so great, the salt has split into searing chlorine gas, and explosive sodium pellets.

[sweet plume]

Hellfire

[plain cosmos]

It's just... So bad. The Great War in Skyrim isn't great either, totally failing to establish any sort of consistent scale or understanding of the campaign, but...

Ugh.

Legends almost feels like a direct response to the speculation that Mede may actually not be the ineffectual weakling that Skyrim really tried to emphasise. Like having a degree of social and political complexity, war wearyness, and depth to the conflicts and geopolitics of Tamriel was a negative.

[sweet plume]

Well it is called Legends, many things is not necessary true. Although I’m still wondering how they will implement it

Or maybe it will just never mean anything in the future

[plain cosmos]

There's a couple ways.

My preferred way, is to encounter the storyteller in TES6, and flagrantly discredit him as a drunk old fool rambling to anyone he finds in the tavern.

Another way is to make it an exaggeration, and blend elements from the story into the more official narrative. Naarfin did in fact have the Orb of Vaermina, using it to outmaneuver the Empire as a diversion while Arannelya managed the main campaign in Hammerfell. With their early success, Naarfin convinced the rest of the Dominon they could go straight for the throat, leading to the forces being redirected to Cyrodiil, while his own private goals were The Culling, attempting to achieve some Daedric Ascension. He was thwarted after losing his edge (the Orb) the Emperor had managed to reorganize and mobelise the wider military of the Empire, and Boethiah's own champion slaying Naarfin while disguised as the injured Mede.

[glacial scarab]

The problem with TES is legends and unoffical sources tend to be true.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. And the generally poor quality of the story brings everyone involved down in the process.

Though, it would be hilarious to learn that The Culling was actually a scheme by Boethiah to purge his own cults. A test to see which of them was strongest, by formenting a crisis in which they would have to pick a side and fight for survival.

Naarfin though it would bring him power. But it really all just a glorious arena to see which would come out on top, and cull the weak.

The core problem remains though. SOMETHING needs to be done about Legends' base narrative.

Because as it is, it obliterates any sense of geography, belittles all the participants by making them all morons, has no sense of scale, strategy, economics, or psychology, and makes your average Warhammer battle sound well written.

[deep finch]

The good thing about Legends is that according to the lore the Elder Scrolls tell of everything that could happen. Even containing historical events that didn't occur in the main timeline. It's ES's version of alternate universes.

[shell basin]

And Dragonbreaks are what happens when the universe takes half a dozen of those timelimes and mashes them together to make one restarted mess.

[plain cosmos]

Dragonbreaks are incredibly rare though.

[calm geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/the-multiverse-multiple-universe-space-universe-science-gif-15827687

[proven moss]

Fun fact, the TES multiverse goes as far back as Shadowkey

The primary conceit of Shadow Magic being the ability to tap into the potential of parallel worlds.

Ala Everything, Everywhere, All At Once

[outer sorrel]

Indeed, I'm using that lore for my TTRPG campaign actually

[plain cosmos]

Part of the problem being... Like most Fantasy settings, TES is very nebulous on what a Multiverse means.

[sweet plume]

We have only ever seen glimpses of that like with the Staff of Towers in ESO Artaeums Psijic Side Quest at the end.

[plain cosmos]

But by some (really, most) fantasy standards, the nature of Mumdus, Oblivion and Aetherius already made it a Multiverse.

For instance, if we look at D&D, the Prime Material Plane, Inner Planes, and Outer Planets all comprise the Multiverse. Which is then linked to OTHER multiverse through the quazi-dimensional membranes of the Far Realm.

Similar approaches to Multiverse are used Warhammer Fantasy & AoS, Warcraft, Diablo, Marvel, DC etc.

Then you've got systems of the Multiverse, such as the 3 Body Problem, where the Multiverse is explicitly a collection of individual Universes, each with their own individual dimensional planes and boundaries.

So 8th dimensional space in our universe has no relation to 8th dimensional space in another universe.

Though all Universes are connected through the medium of the Quantum Foam Membrane.

[fathom jewel]

Where did I leave that bottle of Ibuprofen?.....

[plain cosmos]

Where we're going, we don't need Ibuprofen.

https://tenor.com/view/delorean-time-travel-back-to-the-future-marty-mc-fly-gif-11295533

[gaunt bear]

Yeah, you need a brain transplant.

[plain cosmos]

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.

I craved the strength and certainty of steel.

I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.

Overall though, the core issue is no clear establishment of what a Multiverse means in TES. It's just a fiction buzzword with no context required to really give it meaning and significance

For instance. Nocturnals goal in ESO with the Crystal Tower. Her aim is to merge herself with every reality in the multiverse to achieve omnipotence.

But is that ever reality as in, every instance of Mundus? Every plane of Oblivion and Aetherius? Or with the broader planar categories OF Mundus, Aetherius and Oblivion themselves?

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-25269231

[raw grail]

i understand where that's coming from, especially when relating TES to other franchises, but i do think that within the context of TES, i'd generally relate Aurbis to "the observable universe": you can see Oblivion and the Stars from Mundus, even if your mortal brain can't comprehend it all at once. it might just be a personal thing, but i generally think of it as much more difficult to see - let alone access - other universes in a multiverse

that said, i've also previously separated Aetherius because it's seemingly so... well, separate, from Mundus and Oblivion

so yeah, ig agreed multiverse is a vague term and TES does weird things with its dimensions, planes, and realms

[fathom jewel]

Interesting - the Daedra, while deriding the Aedra for getting duped by Lorkhan/Shor to form Nirn/Mundus, nonetheless have ambitions regarding Mundus and its inhabitants. Meddlesome, aren't they?

[plain cosmos]

It's amusing.

Why does anyone do anything, my dear?

Sheer, unrelenting BOREDOM

[sweet plume]

Lore, I needs it

[fathom jewel]

All righty then: are the Nedes early Nord migrants from Atmora or are they native to Tamriel?

[sweet plume]

Native to Tamriel.

[deep finch]

The Nords are a product of the Atmorans and Nedes combining. Almost every modern race of man can track themselves back to the Nedes.

[fathom jewel]

Wait - if the Nedes are native to Tamriel, it implies that it was THEM who were 'spawned' when Kyne breathed on the Throat of the World. This would mean that ALL humans are descendant from the Nedes.

[glacial scarab]

That's if the Nord belief is accurate for Nedes.

It might be for Atmorans but we don't know for Nedes, Yokudans and Tsaesci

[fathom jewel]

Aren't Yokudans supposed to be from a previous Kalpa?

[glacial scarab]

From what I recall they're from this Kalpa.

[outer sorrel]

Tsaesci aren't men, there are men of Akavir though

[glacial scarab]

They are men.

Sorta the only thing they've been consistent about is them being Men or Snake-Men along with them being humanoids.

[outer sorrel]

They're beastfolk

[glacial scarab]

Not really confirmed.
TES3 had books saying different things and even saying that the Tsaesci were able to procreate with the Humans given PGE1 and Duadeen in the Redguard comic.

TES4 onwards went with humanoids and snake stuff has not reappeared since.

Which is a weird TES thing where they I think say they gotta keep Akavir mysterious but they keep putting the Tsaesci ingame.

[outer sorrel]

Hey listen Alessia "made" the first minotaur and Barenziah had "relations" with a Khajiit. Rim-Men being half actual snake beastman isn't that weird

[glacial scarab]

I should note Barenzaih's books have unreliable narrator to them. Though why she got the Khajiit thing in there I don't know. Even the Tiber Septim part with her is made unreliable due to her pushing things in her book (like when she lies about the events of TES1 and the charaters of TES2)

Nevermind we barely have any information on the Minotaurs. It took till ESO for them to do stuff with them. TES4 forgot about them and TES3/Reedguard didn't have anything for the Cyrodiils and the Minotaurs lore wise.

[fathom jewel]

Not necessarily. The lore is quite vague. The Tsaesci might be 'snake men.' Or they might be almost all humans, but ruled over by some sort of 'snake men.' Perhaps the 'snake men' are a kind of lycanthrope. Could be that they're just peculiar vampires. Clearly they can interbreed with humans - it sounds like there is Akaviri blood somewhere in the Imperial bloodlines from the 2nd era.

[fathom jewel]

Sorry, you're right - it might be that their pantheon potentially has origins in the previous kalpa. But I wouldn't be surprised if that got retconned eventually.

[plain cosmos]

The Tsaesci are (unfortunately) solidly just East Asian humans now. With all the horrible baggage that brings

And the Yokudan pantheon has pretty solidly been relegated to a name swap of the standard one

[sweet plume]

For now I’d say, That may change when Tamriel is done

[fathom jewel]

Since we are talking a bit about Akavir - does anyone have any idea why the Nerevarine went there? It's a land with 4 warring tribes, including two beastfolk, humans and ice demons, so it's not exactly a nirvana filled with peace, love and understanding. What would be the purpose of the Nerevarine to go there?

[glacial scarab]

It's a rumour in TES4 if I recall so it might not even be true

[proven moss]

wanderlust

Canonically the Nerevarine slew two gods and wrastled with a Daedric Prince. Regular adventuring in Tamriel would seem pretty humdrum by comparison.

Time to head over the horizon, and challenge thyself anew.

[plain cosmos]

Assuming they went at all. As Menithil indicates, it's just a rumour. Not an explicit historical fact.

Could just as likely settled down on a farm, and died in the Oblivion Crisis or the Red Year.

Or, they could even still be in Morrowind somewhere.

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, he could have indeed just gone into hiding somewhere in Tamriel. Kind of understandable. But for some reason, BGS said that it was rumored he went to Akavir. So: either that's just a throwaway manner of saying "he went away" or....they had an intent behind that. If it's the second, I have no idea what that intent could be.

[proven moss]

So: either that's just a throwaway manner of saying "he went away"
OOG 100% that's the reason. They just needed to write the Nerevarine out of the narrative because Oblivion takes place only, what, like 5 years after Morrowind?

Kind of a symptom of stakes creep that the series has seen in its Main Quests. It was never really as necessary to write the heroes of Arena or Daggerfall out of the game.

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, it's not just stakes creep, the EC canonically Lived Happily Ever After™️ and didn't show up in TES2

They've been doing it from the start so you always start from the beginning

[proven moss]

I'm saying the Eternal Champion didn't need to be explained away, lore-wise, because their continued presence wasn't an uncomfortable for Daggerfall's or Morrowind's story to unfold as it did (although perhaps it is for Oblivion's).

Morrowind was such a power spike for the hero that I think the devs probably felt the need to more directly write them out of the story. Ala tropes like Too Powerful to Live.

[upper field]

Funny enough we haven't had anything for the Last Dragonborn yet. When was it revealed that the Nerevarine went on an expedition to Akivir?

[glacial scarab]

During the events of TES4 (3E 433) even then there's an unknown travel time for that rumour to spread.

[proven moss]

Well it's typically revealed in the following title, so it's not that funny. 💀 But if Dragonborn is anything to go off of, it's possible they replace Miraak as Herma Mora's pet in Apocrypha. Another route they could go I suppose is have the DB travel to Atmora. 🤷

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, it's smart to get the hero from the previous title 'off the board.' Sending the Nerevarine to Akavir and the Last Dragonborn to Atmora is pretty much the same thing as saying "he went to another planet." There's also a certain poetry with the hero riding off into the sunset instead of hanging around and being a potential nuisance.

[robust lintel]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Dragonborn and Paarthurnax flew off into the time wound together. Prob meditating

Perhaps a long time from now, after we're all long dead probably, all the player heroes from each TES chapter will return to help fight some ridiculously powerful enemy or enemies. Sort of like the sages in Zelda.

[fathom jewel]

Thinking it over.....ok, Alduin's Wall in Sky Haven Temple includes everything that leads up to the Last Dragonborn prophecy - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Prophecy_of_the_Dragonborn . This includes ES2, 3 and 4, as well as the death of High King Torygg of Skyrim and the Skyrim civil war. So everything converged on ES5. It sort of wipes the slate clean for ES6. That would include the exclusion of the Nerevarine, the Last Dragonborn and the Champion who resolved (or instigated) the Warp in the West. This means (I think) that ES6 can take place during, immediately after or long after ES5 - BGS has lots of freedom of action to choose.

[robust lintel]

Well besides Arena as an introductory, we've touched base in High Rock, Morrowind, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim. We still haven't had an exclusive province hero(PC) for Hammerfell, Black Marsh, Elsweyr, Valenwood, or Summerset Isles (I'm not including the spin-offs/ESO). Whether they start including multiple parts of other provinces (like how part of HF was included in TESII) that are included in the base game and not simply DLC or sticking to single provinces, it would probably still be one hero(PC) per province per TES chapter.

[glacial scarab]

If you're putting separating High Rock and Hammerfell with Daggerfall then that's quite wrong.
Daggerfall was in the Iliac Bay which included parts of High Rock and Hammerfell.

[glacial scarab]

Hard to really tell tbh if it "wipes the slate clean" because they weren't building up to TES5. As all they really had for TES5 was thtt it would be in Skyrim. Even the early story was very different with an early Idea being Uriel 5 returning with an army of dragons over Alduin returning.

[robust lintel]

I was going off the name of the title itself to be frank (even though "Oblivion" isn't a province, it was still in Cyrodiil, so you get the general way I was looking at it) I thought Daggerfall was in High Rock, but I could be wrong, I'm not the lorest loremaster 😄. It is also a possibility they include more than one province in future TES titles, or start changing the title names to include more than one province name. 🤷‍♂️

[glacial scarab]

Daggerfall was really just in the Kingdoms of Sentinal, Wayrest and Daggerfall
https://images.uesp.net/0/04/DF-map-Iliac_Bay_(labeled).png

[robust lintel]

I know, and Morrowind was not actually all of Morrowind.

I was just trying to express how I was associating the pattern of the heroes with a province/title name throughout the series.

[robust lintel]

Even though, it doesn't really specify why Miraak began to emerge at the same time of the Last Dragonborn's rise, it is sort of suspicious, if not prophetic, as if it should be on the wall too?

There does seem to be quite the obsession with "prophecies" throughout the whole series in many different aspects besides just the dragon wall though.

[robust lintel]

Furthermore, despite much of the doubt, I think at some point we will be able to explore more of the other continents, such as Akivir. It's just that the game main setting will still probably take place in Tamriel since Bethesda has such the penchant for it being the main setting each chapter. For example, we might get to explore pieces of the other continents, they'll probably introduce most of it by bringing it to Tamriel, such as an Akaviri invasion. But I don't think we'll get the main setting on another continetal mass, such as Akavir, anytime soon.. You get my drift.
On top of that, they could always introduce new landmasses/provinces to Tamriel. It is a fantasy setting loaded with magical elements, I'm sure the lore could be written/explained to include adding things like that.
Tamriel's existing landmass can be modified or changed as well. I've often pondered at the idea of the Orcs finally carving out a small province to call their own.. taking up some of the land of Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock.

[topaz dome]

They have introduced at last one new landmass aleady: Solstheim. It did not exist in lore until they invented it for Bloodmoon.

[fathom jewel]

Let's see - the first Orsinium, per the lore, was in the Wrothgarian range basically in the middle of HR. That got nuked more than once. In the 4E, it's apparently somewhere in the Dragontails between HF and Skyrim. I'm guessing it's somewhere between Dragonstar and Elinhir. Can't really get a description of the new place in the lore.

[fathom jewel]

I saw brief mention of a place called Roscrea, which I think is off the coast of Jehanna. It sounds like a "Solstheim West" - a big island with snow and ice and nords. The nords seem to be restless types - always on the move.

[sweet plume]

Same with that Location in ESO as part of the ebonheart pact tutorial island

[robust lintel]

They've been sacked repeatedly.. Once they were established as an Imperial territory sometime in the second era. However, they've never officially been established/recognized as a province. ):

[raw grail]

Mostly High Rock tho. It's missing a lot of Hammerfell iirc

[raw grail]

It's mostly High Rock

[robust lintel]

Yea, I knew that it contained sections of both High Rock & Hammerfell. I was trying to say, if I have to associate the hero(PC) from TESII between those two provinces, I would say High Rock over Hammerfell. That's all.

[raw grail]

I agree

[glacial scarab]

It's missing a lot of High Rock. It's just set in the region of the Iliac bay which includes parts of High Rock and Hammerfell.

[raw grail]

Hits more Breton beats than Redguard beats

[raw grail]

It's missing a good bit of High Rock but it has like a sliver of Hammerfell in it

[glacial scarab]

it's neither a Breton or a Redguard game.
it's a game set in both areas but wouldn;t really count as something like TES3, "4" and 5

[raw grail]

Idk if this is perfectly accurate but I can't map out the territory myself rn cuz I'm on my phone

The game also refers to the entire iliac bay as the High Rock sea area
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:High_Rock_sea_coast

[proven moss]

That's close enough

[fathom jewel]

Excellent map.

[alpine spruce]

I want an elder scrolls game set in Black Marsh

[fathom jewel]

Why? What in particular are you looking for in a title based in that province?

[proven moss]

There would be so many interesting things you could do in Black Marsh. But the dense foliage that would be ideal would probably be a bit much for modern graphical fidelity.

You could have villages that are completely underwater for example

And there are all sorts of hazards you could put out in the world that would make traveling fun and exciting

You'd have to make small craft work for such a game too, so that the player has skiffs, canoes, rowboats, etc for getting around

And cities or villages might gain more unique flavor by having different types of Argonians living there

Lots of great opportunities for unique monsters too that move away from the more standard fantasy fair of Skyirm and Oblivion

[alpine spruce]

what @proven moss said

[proven moss]

Definitely has huge potential, but sadly I think Black Marsh is probably one of the least likely picks from Beth. I think former dev Michael Kirkbride even said that he doesn't think the beastmen provinces will ever be done. I think that's overly cynical of course, but I still think it's pretty unlikely.

Funnily enough, reading about Argonians and Black Marsh was my first real love that got me into TES lore.

[alpine spruce]

Argonians were the first race that I beat skyrim with. And they're easily my favorit due to the lore behind them

[fathom jewel]

LOL! Fair enough. Could definitely be interesting - the Hist, the different tribes, the different 'kinds' of argonians (I heard somewhere that they might undergo the same breadth of diversification that Khajiit do based on the twin moon cycles), their religious practices, their history....and that's not even touching upon the history of the province (ancient humans, ayleids, maybe others), its flora, fauna and geography. I'd guess that the coastal waters would be very active too, maybe with Dreugh or other intelligent life.

[royal coral]

I hate to be "that guy" but I love the first 2 games too much to let it slide... where's the respect for Arena? 😭

[raw grail]

xD I don't think they need to highlight the whole continent for Arena

But ig if you end up making your own map you can do that? I didn't make this one, I pulled it from Google images

[royal coral]

Haha I know, I was just looking in one of the corners for the name to simulate the entire map, was jk though

[robust lintel]

Louisiana 😭

But fr, Black Marsh & High Rock are my favs. At least we got to see some of Morrowind..

[fathom jewel]

Lore Question: After Kyne breathed on the Throat of the World, Men appeared. They then spread out across Tamriel as Nedes. But: it sounds like some went to Atmora, Akavir and Yokuda. How??? Those places are not exactly a stone's throw away. I can sort of understand how they might wind up in Yokuda and Atmora - there were Mer in those places already, and it stands to reason that there was a fair likelihood of trade ships plying the waves back and forth between those places and Tamriel. But Akavir? That's extremely far, and even in the 4th era, there's no mention of trade vessels from Akavir regularly visiting Tamriel or vice versa.

[plain cosmos]

Based on the narrative of much of the Hist lands being sunk beneath the seas during the Dawn War, and Water being Memory...

They walked there. Before the lands between were under water.

[fathom jewel]

Cool! These kinds of things make Black Marsh more compelling as a place to visit. The storytelling there could be the best yet in the series.

[plain cosmos]

It's got a lot of potential, yeah. Whether or not that potential is ever really explored in a good way, remains to be seen.

ESO did decent, even if Blackmarsh largely looks like a bland and boring video game swamp level.

[proven moss]

I didn't really like the "Argonians as Maya" angle that they took (a innovation that wasn't entirely Zenimax's -- it was already hinted at by Beth in the novels for example). Besides... I don't think Stone pyramids make a lot of sense for a giant marsh??

[plain cosmos]

They actually make a lot of sense... IF built properly.

While i like Xanmeer concept, I think leaning more Cambodian and modeling them after the temples of Ankor would have been better.

Especially if the temple structures had been based around Ankor Wat, which is simply an engineering marvel built in the middle of a Marsh.

[proven moss]

That would be a fun inspiration to draw from, but I think Argonians really desevere the "Dunmer" treatment where they draw from so many different sources that a 1-to-1 analogy is difficult to draw.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, absolutely. Though I think EVERYONE deserves that treatment.

[proven moss]

Maybe they can have steppe pyramids... but they're carved from the backs of giant turtle shells... and the artistic designs on the steppe pyramids remember art from Ankor Wat for example

[proven moss]

TRUE

[fathom jewel]

Are the black marsh pyramids anything like Ziggurats?

[plain cosmos]

The Argonian Xanmeer civilisation being a mix of Mayan, Khmer (the civilisation that built Angkor Wat) and maybe some Vietnamese and Taiwanese influences.

Then transitioning into the more tribal (but no less sophisticated) Carib, Amazonian, Babongo etc influences we see as 'Current' Argonians.

[plain cosmos]

They're technically more like Mesoamerican Step Pyramids than either Zyggurats or North African Pyramids, or the Indonesian Pyramids.

Solid, uniformly stepped structures usually with a temple or structure at the top.

[brisk perch]

If you want to learn about Saxlheel lore and Black Marsh/Argonia, I would recommend the Murkmire zone DLC in ESO.

[plain cosmos]

Further development for Argonians could be a fun way to work in some Robert E. Howard cyclical history themes...

[proven moss]

For Argomian lore I also suggest the Pocket Guides, the Argonian Account, and the novels.

It's too bad we never got the Eye of Argonia game. 😔

[sweet plume]

Honestly I am not that into the idea that everything needs to be the Dunmer Treatment, I’m fine with them mixing a few things in the end vs many things

I’ve been more than satisfied at the moment with how Redguards, Argonian’s, Khajiit, Orcs, Reachmen, Wood Elves and High Elves are.

[plain cosmos]

I am content with some of them. But satisfied? Never. I'm not even satisfied with Dunmer.

[sweet plume]

It’s a good thing we continue to get more of them in ESO, Necrom was a big one

[plain cosmos]

Indeed.

Still wanna know child rearing, marriage, construction techniques, basic trade customs, polite dinner behavior...

[sweet plume]

Beautiful

[brisk perch]

https://esosslfiles-a.akamaihd.net/ape/uploads/2024/01/a21a5048550fcf044f1f41d156e18c70.jpg

Look at the top, the Sun with fractures in the sky? It's a teaser 😛

[raw grail]

I don't think it's entirely bad but the fact it's almost solely that is what upsets me

A lot of the other cultures are more amalgamations of influences, rather than one primary influence

[plain cosmos]

Let the sky fall. Let the seas boil. And though it may take every last drop of my blood, I will see the galaxy freed once more.

And if I cannot save it from your failure, father. Then let the galaxy BURN.

[raw grail]

Stuff like Nords with their Egyptian influences and Redguards with their Japanese influences

[plain cosmos]

Specifically in relation to the cracked sky

[raw grail]

The idea of transitioning away from stone architecture to mud huts because "everything changes, and resisting it went poorly" is a cool idea, which xanmeers are a big part of

[plain cosmos]

Oooh... Now there's an idea...

Ithelia as a Horus like figure...

A favoured child of Magnus/Aka/Lorkhan, disillusioned with the shackles of Mundus and Fate, come to either free all mortals from Destiny or burn Mundus to the ground.

If she can't bring freedom, she will bring annihilation.

[proven moss]

I find it particularly egregious I think because meso-American lizard people was already practically a fantasy trope at that point, being done in other established settings, like Warhammer

[plain cosmos]

And done far better, IMO.

Which is why I tend to think that... It's something that needs a wider expression than JUST Mesoamerican lizard people.

But that's generally why I vastly prefer multiple diverse influences. Because the more trope-y an idea, the more it leans into oversimplification, ethnocentrism, and often outright racism.

The more influences you bring in, the more fleshed out and independent you can make a culture, the less you are likely to run afoul of real world cultural representation issues.

The shift back to the Tsaesci being human, for instance, has turned them into a variable minefield that no one wants to touch at this point. So even where they SHOULD be, you get sloppy attempts to veer away from them like in Rimmen.

[sweet plume]

I still think there is more than meets the eye but we are restricted by what is allowed so far.

[sweet plume]

I have seen this in some ways with other Fantasy stuff, but Argonian’s are definitely my deeper foray into that

[sweet plume]

She may not be a Villain in the end for all we know

[plain cosmos]

Oh, I know. I'm just rambling on that one.

[proven moss]

It also just emphasizes lackadaisical worldbuilding, because stuff gets copy-pasted over without thinking about its purpose or meaning. Then you see it in the fantasy world and you're left with all these arbitrary details that don't reveal anything about that fantasy culture.
Just take Egyptian pyramids for example. It's thought the pyramids invoked the image of the primordial mound Benben, a mound of mud rising from the dark chaotic waters of Nun, from the Egyptian creation myth. So it's appearance and shape had some meaningful significance to the Egyptians. Pulling it into your fantasy setting without thinking about your fantasy race's culture and beliefs and reasons for building them just makes them somewhat shallow window dressing.

[sweet plume]

Khajiit is Romanian, Egyptian and Indian, probably more I am not thinking of.

[plain cosmos]

Khajiit are definitely one of the better ones.

[proven moss]

I particularly like thinking about how Khajiit towns might be different from the towns of other races

Like for example Khajiit have night vision, so maybe their cities follow a nocturnal schedule. And they wouldn't need artificial lighting either, so any candles or torches or whatever would be mostly in the posession of foreigners living in the city.

[sweet plume]

High Elves are Greek and I think someone brought up Imperial China for them

[proven moss]

The Khajiit could even have a term for foreigners living in Elsweyr, something referring to how they're always carrying candles or can't see very well

[sweet plume]

I don’t think they do, I know Argonian’s native to Black Marsh refer to non Marsh Argonians as Lukiel

[proven moss]

Meanwhile outsiders would think Khajiit are lazy because they sleep all day long, when really their society just functions on an opposite schedule. The equivalent to Khajiit partying late into the night would be partying all morning long

Just lots of cool details you could possible tease out about Khajiiti culture.

You'd also have to have architecture that accomodates all their four-legged brethren, so staircases and ladders might be rare to non-existant.

You wouldn't have doorknobs or anything of the sort either

[sweet plume]

They do, Alfiq have small little homes

[proven moss]

Heck you might not have doors at all

[proven moss]

Yeah, the big size differences in khajiit would make it a challenge to design architecture that would serve all their needs

Small Alfiq homes don't even make a great deal of sense. If two Alfiqs decide to raise a family, none of their kids might even be able to fit in their house

[plain cosmos]

The necessary variability in Khajiit architecture makes me think of Tarna in Quest for Glory.

Which is inhabited by humans and Leotaurs, who are notably larger than the humans.

Also, quadrupeds.

[sweet plume]

I think the ones that would require the most accommodating would be Pahmar-Rahts

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Afliq through to the humanoids would be pretty standard. Maybe some... Tabletop dining options for the Afliq

[sweet plume]

Just due to there size, however I can see someone needing to dress Alfiq and Senche- Rahts

[sweet plume]

Alfiq’s can use Magic so many of there needs may not be something they always need attending to, even Senche Rahts have Page Turners for reading

[plain cosmos]

Indeed.

The different needs in terms of architecture and furniture would be more... Social necessities rather than purely structural ones.

[sweet plume]

Sench Raht Beds are a thing so they definitely have bedding accommodations but Pahmar is one of those things we don’t have much for in terms of beds.

[proven moss]

That didn't even occur to me. Of course they're be jobs in Khajiiti society that don't have equivalents elsewhere. Page turning sounds like a horridly boring job though 😄

Or are they using some sort of magic-doohickey?

[plain cosmos]

Imagine litterbox scooping.

[proven moss]

Honestly? Sounds better than being a gong farmer

[topaz dome]

I can easily imagine it. I scoop 12 litter boxes every morning (and occasionally afternoons too if they've been rambunctious that day). 🙂

[plain cosmos]

And I thought I was surrounded by furry overlords when I had 4

[fathom jewel]

Quite a discussion today!

[deep finch]

TMW: You tab over to a discussion on if Khajiit use litter boxes.

I'd be afraid to see what a Sench leaves in a litter box.

[deep finch]

Doesn't the Alfiq in ESO use magic to turn the pages of that book you give it?

[fathom jewel]

Regarding architecture: to bring in multiple influences, you have to have artists who know the old traditions and styles, know how to meld them syncretically, and then have enough creativity to add some elements that make the amalgam truly unique and aesthetically pleasing. That takes real talent. We've seen the ESO devs show skill in lore. They need to make the same kind of effort in art/architecture. And the BGS devs need to take note. I say this not as a critique, but as praise for what's already been done with the hope that even more can be achieved down the road.

[sweet plume]

They do yes

[deep finch]

I'd post that gif from Jurassic Park. But even if the bot didn't block it, the mods would have to delete it on principle.

[fathom jewel]

Khajiit night vision: I wasn't aware of this. It presents really interesting possibilities. Maybe their towns and cities as well as their indoor areas wouldn't be completely dark, but have a very subtle, diffuse lighting which is especially appealing to eyes that are equipped with night vision. There's room for artistic interpretation in this.

[fathom jewel]

I hope your furballs are, despite the messes they leave for you in all those litter boxes, bringing you great joy as well. 😁

[deep finch]

Like most cat owners I'm sure Pseron has both joy and "what in the name of all that is holy" moments with their cats.

[topaz dome]

The joy our cats bring into our lives is worth every second of the effort it takes to look after them. (Trivia: nine of our eleven cats are/were feral, born on our property. So I feel a special bond with them).

[plain cosmos]

You know, in hindsight, that's another woefully under explored cultural element in TES. And almost all Fantasy for that matter.

Waste disposal.

Throughout human history, various forms of waste disposal have been used in different times, locations and under different circumstances. Middens, sewers, above ground dumps, burning, recycling of certain materials etc.

It's an exceptionally important anthropological and archaeological element that simply never gets the attention it deserves in fantasy.

[brisk perch]

That is for many complicated reasons, many of which stem from IRL and topics being unpleasant or touchy, due to people sometimes associating certain fantasy cultures with IRL ones and thus if one in-game has less developed waste disposal/management infrastructure or otherwise, it could be seen as an insult to the other, hence storywriters rarely address it in their stories.

[robust lintel]

Well dang, that's a real hindrance on individual creativity. I mean you can't please everyone, it's impossible. Just pick your poison and roll with it

[robust lintel]

Would be cool if you could make like a unique armor out of compacted junk or all the stuff you never use. "Garbage sword" 😆 prob gives off diseases or tetanus

[robust trout]

from what I remember of way back when I dated a dev, there was a specific level designer at BethSoft that's responsible for the buckets/privy rooms you sometimes run across in Skyrim, for roughly this reason

[fathom jewel]

In ancient cultures, cities and towns would 'pile up' on top of one another. A great example is Troy, where there is archeological evidence of seven cities each stacked up over the ruins of the previous one. The accumulated dust, debris and detritus would layer until new structures could be built on top of the remains of the older ones. I think Stormhold in Black Marsh is one of them - there is a Dunmer city on top of an Imperial city on top of an Ayleid city, if I remember right. But actual garbage dumps and sewers are not explored in ES, though we occasionally seem to wander thru 'sewers' of a sort, along with underground infrastructure like the Riften Ratway. Actually building out that sort of infrastructure might offer all sorts of interesting storytelling opportunities - haunted ruins, criminal underground organizations, unpleasant beasties, politically-minded dissidents, etc...

[glacial scarab]

Stormhold was Ayleid first and then Dunmer or Argonian.
Don't know much Cyrodillic with it,

[proven moss]

Yeah from what lore we have of the cities of Argonia, it seems most are of foreign origin

[fathom jewel]

Sounds like the Argonians and the Hist have something very unique going on - I'm getting the impression that Argonian society/culture is very markedly different from any other in Tamriel. I read somewhere that the Argonians don't even adhere to the worship of any of the 8 or 9 divines, and the only divinity they recognize (though not necessarily worship) is Sithis/Padomay. A title set in that province could be very captivating.

[plain cosmos]

Well, yes. The Argonians are a bioengineered slave race designed with a subconscious link to the Hist Hive Mind, which allows the Hist to influence and manipulate their society as needed, and even allows for direct subsumption of individual agency of the Argonians into the Hist, giving them total and direct control.

As such, they will obviously be very different.

[fathom jewel]

Interesting. Slightly worrisome - what if the Hist decided that they had a grudge against the rest of Tamriel and ordered the argonians to begin breeding like mad, then after 20 years launched some sort of massive invasion of the continent? Or perhaps the Hist have collective powers that could be both awesome and terrible. No doubt - that province could provide room for super creative storytelling. It's not just a muddy bog.

[plain cosmos]

I suspect the Hist, or at least the majority of their collective give mind, recognise the existential danger of pissing off the rest of the world.

[pastel sorrel]

smh cowardly trees

skill issue

[fathom jewel]

LOL! Yes, that would be best. But you never know - what if they have a fit of pique and feel 'ignored' or 'slighted' by the rest of the world? Perfectly intelligent people can sometimes get caught up in the silliest trains of thought and do the dumbest things.

[robust lintel]

Trees are much smarter than ppl 😆

[plain cosmos]

I think their general modus operandi is to BE ignored. They want everyone to leave them alone.

[fathom jewel]

if there is a collective consciousness among the Hist, and if they can also draw upon the entire argonian tribe for further consciousness, this might become a rather formidable weapon. An organic version of Numidium in a sense, or perhaps worse.

[robust lintel]

Idk why this makes me thinks of Mr. House and his sleeping robot army lol

[gaunt bear]

Compared to the dumb things I’ve seen some people do, I’m inclined to agree.

[robust lintel]

I mean trees do sometimes fall on or drop branches on people, even whiplash a branch to the face a time or two 💀

[plain cosmos]

Trees once almost incinerated the entire planet, so they're definitely shifty.

[fathom jewel]

But: we won't be going to Black Marsh in ES6. We'll be almost certainly going to HF. With that in mind - I don't understand how the Rourken are different from the rest of the dwemer other than their very unfriendly attitude towards the Dunmer. I'm hoping there are other material differences between the Rourken and all the other dwemer - I'd like to see something different in the HF dwemer ruins.

[robust lintel]

We don't really know if it's gonna be HF, HR, somewhere else, more than one province, or a combo of pieces of multiple provinces, or even in Tamriel. I mean a lot of ppl.. felt quite certain for a long time "Redfall" had something to do with being TESVI and was gonna take place in HF because of the name, when it was an entirely different game series, by a different dev studio, about vampires. We won't know till it's said and done.

[fathom jewel]

The only thing I can think of to go by is that 2018 video. Yes, it's conjectural, but there's no other info. I looked at the ESO map, hoping it would show a region that was being held 'in reserve' for ES6, but ESO in its multiple additions has covered at least part of every province. So there's really not a lot to go on. If the 2018 video genuinely reflects the actual ES6 location, we can clearly eliminate Summerset, Black Marsh, Cyrodiil, Valenwood, Morrowind and Skyrim because of the terrain features. That leaves Elsweyr, HR and HF, unless it's non-Tamrielic - either old Yokuda before that one Very Bad Day, or maybe Akavir.

[fathom jewel]

Regardless: is there any way to distinguish between Rourken and non-Rourken artifacts and ruins?

[sweet plume]

Not atm, We had Volenfell in ESO but that was the Base game where Pretty much many assets were reused.

[pastel sorrel]

Redfall was pure conjecture, TES6 being Hammerfell actually has some supporting evidence.

They already said the trailer had clues to where it was set, and we pretty quickly figured out based on the geography and whatnot that it was most likely looking at the southern coastline of Hammerfell with the mountain border with Cyrodiil in the distance.

Plus the desert assets in that one BTS video, Hammerfell being the strongest choice narratively, etc.

[robust lintel]

To be frank, they're both conjecture. You've got a lot of different views and angles on it out there to make it sound like it's gonna be this or that. There is no certainy in it till it's said and done.

[fathom jewel]

If it does turn out to be HF, the lore will be deep. Redguard (Crown and Forbear), Ayleid, Nede, Orc, Dwemer...there's a lot of history to that province.

[robust lintel]

I think the Kragen clan followed suit and went to HF as well, after their stay in Skyrim of course with some of that clan's structures we got to explore there.

[fathom jewel]

Just did some reading. Sounds like the Kragen settled mostly in Skyrim, but did get as far west as north HF and built Fang Lair. The Rourken also had some people split off and build a place in the Pale in Skyrim (some area well south of Dawnstar) called Irkngthand or something like that.

There must be something unique about the Rourken, though. Has to be. After all, they apparently created Volendrung and Spellbreaker. Hoping this could mean there are some other interestingly unique things about them to discover.

[robust lintel]

You might find it interesting to know that Spellbreaker is listed as only a "superficial" Dwemer tower shield. I also just read about a note from Eis Vuur Warden that mentions seeing blueprints of a shield in Rourken territory, but it disintegrated from age before he got a closer look at it. I don't know if the Dwemer crafted it or had help in the matter. All I know is that it was made on the behalf of Rourken and he used it against Shalidor, in which it became lost in the final battle. It is said it often the shield will not remain in one's possession for long and seeks it's original owner (or possibly maker)...

[plain cosmos]

Considering it's... Well, NOT a Tower Shield in any of its known forms, I'd also be inclined to not necessarily take the description at face value...

It's only really been depicted as a Heater Shield. Maaaaybe a Kite Shield of you really stretch it.

[robust lintel]

Another fun tidbit, when equipping the shield in Skyrim, guards often like to comment: "Your shield... Dwarf-make, is it not? But yet it seems so much... more."

[plain cosmos]

Which is strange, since... It doesn't look like any other Dwemer shields.

[robust lintel]

Well that's probably why it's superficial. It looks dwemer (at least that much is implied from guards reaction and it's description of it in the in-game book), yet maybe it's not.

[sweet plume]

Which to me should make me believe Dwemer Styles are not universally the same completely but may share similar aesthetics.

[plain cosmos]

Which would fit with... Well, most armouring trends ever.

Still, MATERIAL wise, Skyrim's Spellbreaker isn't really that Dwemeri. It's use of Golds and White actually make it more similar to the ancient Falmer styles than anything we see from the Dwemer.

[sweet plume]

In ESO we have gotten different Dwemer looking styles from different clans I believe, like the one in the Reach.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. ESOs actually been really great for that.

[sweet plume]

I know the clan name started with an R I believe, can’t quite recall atm

[robust lintel]

So there's a thing called spellstone, created by Shalidor, which is apparently a bunch of oblivion crystals fused with transmutation. Don't know if that has anything to do with it, but could be some of the material of the shield which is why it looks so weird in comparison?

[gaunt bear]

That makes for an interesting question: what if there was more “spellstone”?

[fathom jewel]

As I think about it, I believe it would make sense if the Rourken crafted volendrung and spellbreaker in partnership with certain Daedra. Note that I said partnership and not 'obeisance' or 'worship.' Also, think about this: Volendrung is associated with Malacath. Spellbreaker is associated with Peryite. Neither of them can claim to be among the most mighty Daedra. It would make a certain sense that the dwemer would be willing to work with some of the weaker daedra so that these divinities would be less capable of gaining any kind of leverage against them.