#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

split pond
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I'm just assuming it based on Khajiit lore, which has Azurah judge Magrus for being unfit to rule, then ripped his eye out.

glad belfry
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The Imperial Cult in Morrowind mentions the nine virtues when you are deciding to join, does a similar framework of ethical virtues show up in the worship of the nine divines elsewhere? Im wondering how central they are, or if its a Morrowind Imperial Cult specific thing.

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The "Ten Commands: Nine Divines" in oblivion comes to mind but seems a bit different in framing.

split pond
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Can the Wood Elves cut down trees? Real life forest preservation efforts sometimes cut down trees to prevent overcrowding and to allow new growth to flourish in its place, do the Wood Elves do that as well?

proven moss
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If they maintain the Green Pact, no. If they don't, yes.

uncut hatch
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Why is talos rejected as one of the nine divines

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In oblivion the nine divines were accepted but in Skyrim it seems like talos is completely sidelined

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Tiber Septim was a Dragonborn just like our character

shell basin
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Oblivion was set in the Imperial City, and before the rise of the Thalmor and the New Aldmeri Dominion. There's two hundred years and a military conquest of difference. Talos is rejected because that was one of the conditions of the Thalmor. And this is why the Stormcloaks, who still revere him openly, are not happy.

Neither are some otherwise pro-Imperial Nords, such as Jarl Balgruuf and Legate Rikke: they are secret Talos worshippers themselves, and Skyrim is the land where cult of Talos has always been strongest.

But there's also the fact that the actual bloodline of the Septims has died out. The divine power that made Talos is, after all, that of Shor/Lorkhan... a god of, among many other things, mortality (as well as being The Trickster, and regarde by most as evil.) Often revered by Men and despised by Mer.

Gods who are made from the power of Shor/Lorkhan... lack permanence. Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Dagoth Ur - all who seized power from the Heart of Lorkhan... had divine power for a while. For centuries, even. Before even Talos accessed its power: their divinity is as old as the First Age and the Reman Dynasty. But they are all gone now, they are all dead.

And the bloodline of Talos / Tiber Septim has died out, with the death of Martin Septim and the intercession of Akatosh... the Dragon God... whose own divine power it is, that grants the nature of Dragonborn to a select few.

Perhaps the Thalmor are right that Talos should not be worshipped any longer, but for the wrong reason: not that he was never a god (their doctrine is that he is an interloper, and there have never been more than Eight Divines), but that it is time for his godhood to die, and for another to take up the mantle in the future.

Will the Last Dragonborn, in fact, eventually be his successor in the pantheon?

uncut hatch
glacial scarab
# uncut hatch In oblivion the nine divines were accepted but in Skyrim it seems like talos is ...

I wouldn't say completely sidelined given it plays a major part of the world history and the Civil war.

Just Talos doesn't really have much of a role in general since the main story isn't not about him but of Akatosh's Dragons. Even in Oblivion the only important thing about Talos was his bloodline otherwise it's about the "Dragonfires" and stopping a Demonic invasion of the world.

I also don't think TES handles Aedric religions well which probably really doesn't help.

gaunt bear
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Truth is a bit more… complicated.

plain cosmos
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You wouldn't want to be Tiber anyway. He is... Not a good person.

drifting vale
drifting vale
drifting vale
gaunt bear
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Ultimately, that choice is up to Akatosh himself on who gets to be Dragonborn and who doesn’t.

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Also, don’t overthink it too much, you’ll cause your head to explode.

uncut hatch
drifting vale
sharp lantern
# shell basin Oblivion was set in the Imperial City, and *before* the rise of the Thalmor and ...

The Talos Cult has always been strongest in Cyrodiil. It originated in Nibenay 70 years before Talos even became a God, and has been a part of Cyrodiil's faith over 300 years longer than Skyrim's. Even the Nords who lived in Bruma during TES IV refused to attend sermons in the Grand Cathedral of Talos because they stuck to their own Nord gods.

Talos' divinity also does not come from Lorkhan.

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
drifting vale
# plain cosmos He was a murderer, a regicide, a liar, and a treacherous snake. And that just th...

No proofs to back up any of this statements you just made.

Murderer? That's about what you'd expect from a WARRIOR AND CONQUEROR. You seriously can't expect someone in those areas to develop without bloodshed, almost everyone is a murderer of some kind. Even our dear Last Dragonborn murders bandits every single day, but they're still a goddamn hero.

Regicide? Of whom? Cuhlecain? Tiber septim got his throat SLICED on the assassination, and he gave him the title of "Emperor Zero" after his death on his honor.

Liar? Of what exactly? You act as if lying is some level of monstrosity humanity has never seen before 😂

Treacherous snake? Again, vague asf.

sharp lantern
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I mean, Tiber Septim is definitely morally gray... But if his motivation for his actions were because the gods ordered him to turn Tamriel intoa an Empire it can largely be understood.

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Something I also noticed is that there are only two to three provinces that Tiber Septim invaded without provocation:
Black Marsh, Morrowind, and, arguably, Elsweyr

plain cosmos
sharp lantern
plain cosmos
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Fighting against a preceding body is not a cassis belli

sharp lantern
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Engaging in combat with the Emperor's soldiers is definitely a justification for invasion.

drifting vale
# sharp lantern Something I also noticed is that there are only two to three provinces that Tibe...

The cause of the Tiber Wars was never because the other provinces "provocated" TIber, it was because it had already been propheticied that Tiber was going to unify all of Tamriel. Plus, on his biography they tell you how he had his doubts about invading Morrowind, and he never got to the heart of Black Marsh anyways, it was useless and suicide. Plus, many of the conquests ended by a peace treaty or armstice by both parties. E.g : Hammerfell which insisted to Tiber to make a peace treaty that benefited the redguards, he did it.

sharp lantern
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Yeah, but saying "the gods told me to invade" is kind of a mixed bag when not all of Tamriel follows the same gods.

But it is justified to respond when you are attacked (like High Rock, Skyrim, and the Dominion did) or when you are asked to help (as happened in Hammerfell).

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Also, regarding Hammerfell, it did take a rebellion for Tiber Septim to make a treaty with them.

drifting vale
drifting vale
sharp lantern
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The deal was that in return for Tiber's aid, the Empire would get some lands along the border. Tiber Septim instead occupied all of Hammerfell.

His intervention was justified, his occupation less so.

drifting vale
drifting vale
plain cosmos
# sharp lantern Engaging in combat with the Emperor's soldiers is definitely a justification for...

The Colovian States do not equate to the Empire. Fighting against a tributary, vassal, or even border state, and then ceasing when that polity is annexed by another power, does not constitute a casus belli.

The Colovian States would have to be dejure lands of the Empire at the time. Which we don't know for sure of they were. The fact they had independent armies and were not under the military auspices of the Imperial Legion suggests they were not fully annexed yet, and thus were independent.

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As for the earlier 'Throat slitting' thing. We can pretty reliably conclude that the Arcturan Heresy is correct in its allegations that this was a fabrication.

This is due to the fact that Draugr can still use the Thu'um, so Tiber having his throat slit shouldn't have done anything. The only way to lose the Thu'um that we have seen is losing the ability to speak altogether. And this certainly wasn't the case with Tiber.

As such, he probably never had it in the first place.

shell basin
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Except it's kind of canon that he did have the Thu'um... the Greybeards themselves acknowledge him as a previous Dragonborn. So the Arcturian Heresy is not all true.

drifting vale
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Plus Paarthurnax says to the last dragonborn that he wasn't the first to meet him, and that the last one was centuries ago

sharp lantern
drifting vale
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Sooo... if it did happen I'm happy as hell

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My boi Paarthurnax teaching the legendary Tiber Septim is something amazing lol

drifting vale
# plain cosmos As for the earlier 'Throat slitting' thing. We can pretty reliably conclude that...

The Arcturian Heresy is not all true, but not all lie either. Just like the official imperial records arent all true, but both have some sort of truth into it. For example, in the official imperial records they say Tiber Septim was born under the name Talos Stormcrown in Atmora, then they have the image of Talos greeting a giant king in atmora. But this makes absolutely no sense, since the last boat that sailed from Atmora to Tamriel was centuries before Tiber's birth, and after that, Atmora has been considered inhospitable by any human.

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And the name of Talos Stormcrown is the name given to Hjalti Early-Beard under the command of Culhecain. And there are records of Hjalti, plus the birth of Hjalti has more info, like he was born in the city of Alcaire, High Rock. That also explains Tiber hatred to orcs, since Alcaire is close to Orc civilazations, also Bretons and Orcs have never gotten along. I believe the imperial records would like people to believe the first story that he was from Atmora, because it's a more "incredible" story so it puts Tiber in a position of divinity even from birth. But nah, Hjalti wasn't even a noble from High Rock or anything lol

plain cosmos
plain cosmos
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If he knew more, then there would be no reason for him to stop using the Thu'um after the incident, as we know for a fact that having his throat slit wouldn't have impaired the ability.

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So it's far more likely that Wulfharth was the 'Stormcrown' and his departure stripped Tiber of that ability. He then concocted the throat story to cover the change, and him no longer being able to summon storms.

sharp lantern
# plain cosmos That... Isn't at all how geopolitics works.. Though, even if we do give it to T...

High Rock: Retaliation for their invasion of Cyrodiil.
Skyrim: Retaliation for their invasion of Cyrodiil.
Hammerfell: Military aid at the request of the Forebears, occupied due to the absence of its legitimate ruler.
Valenwood + Summerset: Retaliation for Aldmeri engagements with Imperial troops along the border.
Elsweyr: Treaty with the Dominion would have made them an enemy of the Empire.

So that only leaves Morrowind and Black Marsh...

sharp lantern
glacial scarab
glacial scarab
plain cosmos
# sharp lantern High Rock: Retaliation for their invasion of Cyrodiil. Skyrim: Retaliation for t...

Highrock and Skyrim were during the reign of Cuhlecain, and not Tibet's actions. As was northern Cyrodiil, as far as we can tell.

Hammerfell doesn't have a legitimate ruler, and is a collection of city states. Furthermore, while it certainly happened, conquest of territories during a request for aid from one party has never been viewed as legal or justified.

Valnwood and Summerset, maybe if the Colovians were in fact provincial territories of the Empire at the time, and not simply vassals.

Elsweyr, no, not even remotely. Being allied to an enemy has never been a viable casus belli, Elsweyr would have had to actively follow through on their alliance with the Dominion and send troops. And even then, the ground on that one is shaky, depending on the period you're looking at.

plain cosmos
# sharp lantern We don't know that for a "fact" in the slightest, there are no other instances o...

And again. Draugr. The fact that Draugr can still shout conclusively demonstrates that damage to the vocal apparatus isn't enough to stop a Tongue. You would need to totally impair the ability to vocalise, such as we see with Ulfric being gaged, in order to stop it.

And since Tiber Septim could conclusively STILL talk afterwards, his ability to Shout wouldn't have been impacted.

However, If his knowledge was limited, and most of the demonstrations of it were in fact Wulfharth, then the latter's departure explains the need for the revised story.

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Based on the Greybeards, we can conclude that Tiber knew at least 2 words. Minor words which wouldn't explain the Stormcrown mantle.

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
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The two don't have to directly replace eachother, though. All they do is recontextualises eachother.

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Based on the Greybeard's ritual and recognition of Tiber as Ysmir, we can conclude that it's likely Tiber learned at least 2 Words. This is because Unrelenting Shout and Whirlwind Sprint are part of the testing ceremony we see, and we have no reason to doubt that there was a different version for Tiber. (Though the trip to Jurgen's tomb seems unlikely).

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However, based on what we learn and see in Skyrim, it is functionally impossible that a slit throat would result in Tiber losing the Thu'um. Nothing short of the total loss of the vocal apparatus seems to impair it, and Tiber could definitely still speak afterwards.

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So the logical conclusion is that Tiber never learned anything beyond the bare minimum needed to get the Greybeards to declare him Ysmir. Beyond that, he relied on the far more experienced Wulfharth for such shows of power.

And when Wulfharth departed (whether under orders to deal with civil uprisings, or because of Tibet's penchant for betrayal) Tiber then needed to create the story about his throat in order to explain the absence of the more show-y powers.

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Because it's a lot easier to resist using Fus to scatter the furniture, but a little harder to justify resisting Strun when it could turn the tide of a battle.

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This would also explain why Tiber's attempted school in Markarth failed. Because HIS knowledge was limited, and his main Thu'um wielding ally had left. So he couldn't teach new Tongues anything but the basics even if he wanted to

glacial scarab
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The only thing we really know that I recall (at this moment in time) was just him shouting at Old Hroldan where he either wrecked the gate or fortifcations.

Also don't think you need to be Dragonborn for Ysmir since like I think Pelinal was called Ysmir once. I'd check but i'm in Baldur's Gate 3 and I doubt Chrome would agree with running both at the same time.

plain cosmos
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Can confirm. It does not. I do it anyway, and my computer hates me for it.

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As far as Pelinal goes, however, while I have seen it claimed onlune, I've never seen him named as such in any lore sources.

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The closest we get to it is from Before the Ages of Man, in which an immortal god-hero is mentioned, alongside several pseudonyms: Hans the Fox, Pelinal, Ysmir etc.

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Of course, this was before Pelinal Whitestrake and the Alessian Rebellion, so it may not even be the same Pelinal.

sharp lantern
# plain cosmos Highrock and Skyrim were during the reign of Cuhlecain, and not Tibet's actions....

Septim was in service to Cuhlecain, and ruled the realm Cuhlecain ruled. No peace was made between Cuhlecain and Skyrim or High Rock, making it a continuation of that conflict.

Hammerfell had a High King at the time of Tiber Septim - who was to be replaced by either A'Tor or Baron Volag. It was in civil war and the Forebears asked Septim for his aid in return for some territory. When Baron Volag disappeared the Legion occupied Hammerfell until its "legitimate ruler" could be placed on the throne.

Colovia was a part of the Empire when the Thalmor sent savage Bosmer against them, and continued to be a part of it when the Aldmeri probed the Empire's defences.

We do not know when Elsweyr fell, but if it allied with an enemy state that would be a justification.

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
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Alright, I know when to leave well enough alone.

uncut hatch
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All this over me mentioning Tiber septim

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I am astounded

plain cosmos
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Oh no, this one is on me. I should know better than to say anything bad about magnificent Tiber Septim.

sharp lantern
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If you want to talk about bad acts, you should've mentioned him using the Numidium at Rimmen, or how he used it to replace nobles after he had conquered Tamriel, or how he forced Barenziah to go through an abortion, or how he sold the Breton command at Sancre Tor into slavery.

But you did not.

plain cosmos
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I did, actually. Specifically mentioning crimes I could talk about here, most of those being very sensitive topics which cannot be discussed in much depth due to rules here.

Then disputes came up regarding specific points, so I focused on those instead of shifting the goalposts to any other of his laundry list of horrible things.

glacial scarab
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I'm only suspicious of the Barenzaih one (well and the Sacne Tor one because it's an odd book for something within Cyrodiil) because it comes from a book where she fabricates other things (about events of TES1 and some characters that appear in TES2).

plain cosmos
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SHE fabricates nothing. The author does. Maybe.

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Knowing Barenziah, of she was writing it, Tiber Septim would have loved her and gifted her Morrowind with no strings attached.

glacial scarab
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Unless they were trying to hide involvement with Tharn. Given the TES1 and 2 parts.
From what i recall it tries to paint her as invovled in helping Ria Silmane and paints Eadwyre as loyal which from TES2s PoV is inaccurate.

plain cosmos
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It was also written before that whole situation was resolved though. So it's possible the author was simply writing the context they had at the time.

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Always a risk when writing contemporary history.

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Cough Star Trek Discovery cough

glacial scarab
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The book was written after TES1 and Eadwyre is the guy who tries to murder you in the middle of his throne room when you give him the totem.

plain cosmos
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Yes, IN TES2.

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Which is also the the game in which this book is first found in.

glacial scarab
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Ah right it was the character of Eadwyre not loyalty on its own.

"The book makes Eadwyre look like the nicest guy, most loved dude on the Iliac, yet if you actually play TES2 he is the scummiest person in the game"

royal coral
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It made me so happy to read this discussion on people talking about Daggerfall (it's my favorite TES game)

drifting vale
# plain cosmos We don't know. We don't actually know if all Dragonborn were anointed in the sam...

We certainly know that Tiber Septim COULD use the Thu'um with great power, he fought against Skyrim and High Rock armies, but after they heard the Voice of Tiber Septim, they recognized him as a son of Skyrim and joined his side.

"Skyrim's army joined with Talos, recognizing him as the son of Skyrim and heir to the Empires of Men."

I don't know where you get the statement that he could've just know 2 words, now, killing dragons isn't the only way of learning words of power, as we can see, our dearest Last Dragonborn could do it by just reading the word and the greybeards would pass on their knowledge (or Paarthurnax, meaning any dragon could do it), and Tiber Septim also had a dragon at his service by the name of Nahfahlaar. Not to mention how easy it is or a Dragonborn to learn and use shouts with immense power.

drifting vale
drifting vale
# sharp lantern High Rock: Retaliation for their invasion of Cyrodiil. Skyrim: Retaliation for t...

Again, Tiber didn't really "needed" any casus bellis to initiate wars, he already had on his head the idea of unifying all of Tamriel under his Empire, which he did. But plenty of his 'conquests' ended up with armstices or were just a couple of battles, take for example Morrowind, he was hesitant of attacking Morrowind in the first place

"Tiber was very hesitant as he was aware of the divine power of the Tribunal, the living trio of Dunmer gods"
At the end, Tiber's army just took on siege the capital Mournhold and then backed down, Vivec then made peace treaties with Tiber. He even let Morrowind have full autonomy, so it wasn't oppressive as some might make it sound.
"Thus Vivec and Tiber Septim signed the Armistice: a treaty that gave Morrowind near full autonomy, a right no other province possessed"

drifting vale
# glacial scarab With lore moving on I've started to doubt Wulfharth's role in the "Stormcrown". ...

In the books it says Tiber was protected by a storm of some kind.

"a storm talked all night with Hjalti and deflected arrows while Hjalti shouted down the wall of Old Hrol'dan"
We may speculate this way the nordic spirit of Wulf since it also mentions his power with storms:
"Wulfharth with his ability to summon great storms, and extreme affinity for thu'um "
But Wulf didn't do all this because of nothing or pure benevolence. He did it because he knew the prophecy of Tiber Septim and he wanted him to destroy the tribunal, but Tiber didn't wanted to and reached peace with the Tribunal.
"Wulfharth desperately wanted to kill his ancient enemies the Dunmeri gods Almsivi. Tiber sought no such thing and instead reached a truce with the Tribunal. This infuriated Wulfharth who left the side of Tiber"

drifting vale
drifting vale
drifting vale
royal coral
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(I mean this to be funny, not rude) Dude... Alfredo is writing an entire college thesis paper 😂

drifting vale
drifting vale
glacial scarab
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I mean tbf we don't know what the gods wanted. Jurgan just bested the other voices.

royal coral
drifting vale
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I don't mean to be rude, I might be wrong. Im open if anyone wants to debate I love it and im here for it lol

drifting vale
# glacial scarab I mean tbf we don't know what the gods wanted. Jurgan just bested the other voic...

true, but with actions we can see what they don't want. Just look at it this way, anyone who has tried using the voice for personal glory has gone wrong, Jurgen tried to and failed miserably. The voice was given by Kynareth in an attempt for men to defend themselves against the dragons in the dragon wars. Which already passed hundreds and thousends of years ago. So that's not the case anymore. Ulfric also used it, and it caused a scandal. The only ones that were able to use it without getting their fate truncated, have been the dragonborns. Tiber achieved his prophecy, as well as our last dragonborn.

drifting vale
drifting vale
uncut hatch
drifting vale
uncut hatch
drifting vale
# glacial scarab I'm only suspicious of the Barenzaih one (well and the Sacne Tor one because it'...

And I got answers for you, so here:
The ONLY book that talks about this "incident" is one book which wasn't even written by Barenziah herself. But was done by an acquantance who claims Barenziah told him, since he wasn't even there when it all happened. Also, Barenziah has been know for LYING through her teeth. She said Tiber Septim used the Numiudum on the siege against Mournhold. Which makes absolutely no sense since he did not posses it by that time.

"Barenziah in recanting this memory seems to allege that Septim was aided by the Numidium in the siege of the capital city; however, this does not match in any way with the time period that Septim ultimately received the Brass Golem, at which point the Empire and Morrowind were at peace".
Which was a gift from Vivec once they got the peace treaty signed, so how does that make sense? Also, Tiber Septim has never been known for having affairs with ch1lds. That's just grotesque, even Barenziah herself wanted all those books burned down and told the person who wrote them "Allegedly Anonymous" to NOT publish it. Even the title says it "Unauthorized biography of the famous Queen Mother of Morrowind". Barenziah kept friendly and diplomatic relationships with Tiber, and the Imperial libraries of course banned that book from the Empire, along with the Arcturian Heresy, which we already stated that this has part truth part lie.

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The Arcturian Heresy was written by Wulf, and I already mentioned how Wulf wanted Tiber to kill his enemies for him, which Tiber denied. So Wulf got mad and left, it would be no surprise if he wrote lots of things to damage Tiber's reputation on the make of this book.

drifting vale
plain cosmos
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She then made up with him, likely due to her surge in public popularity after it was published, and he was actively living under her patronage by the time of Morrowind.

shell basin
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One interesting thing: Before the days of Jurgen Windcaller, there were reports of "Tongues" being silenced - the Nordic forces lost the Battle of Red Mountain apparently for that reason, in a three-way fight with the Dwemer and Dunmer (with House Dagoth of the Dunmer apparently ending up betraying everybody, regardless of which version of the story you read). Indeed, this event is said to have actually inspired Windcaller to codify his Way of the Voice, and suggest that those Tongues (thu'um voices) who were at Red Mountain must have abused their gift. Most notably, he kept his Voice throughout his life, and the discipline of the Greybeards and the Way of the Voice became a thing.

So perhaps Talos / Tiber / Hjalti / whatever name he was currently going by, really did lose his gift, and the cause of it wasn't the cutting of his throat (if indeed it was his own throat that was cut, sources differ on this), but that happened to be coincidentally at the same time? Causing him to search for an alternative source of divine power to back him, with the loss of the Akatosh-given Dragonborn's Voice? Hence the searcn for the Numidium, all the shenanigans with the Mantella and whatever...

plain cosmos
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We know that, despite Jurgen's success at establishing the Way of the Voice, he couldn't actually silence others. And alternative uses of the Thu'um persisted for centuries.

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The 'Silencing' of the other Tongues is generally interpreted as silencing their ideas, either by killing them, or more likely, convincing them of Jurgen 's own power and thus the right to dictate how the Thu'um was used.

split pond
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Did Paarthurnax join when they were convincing other Tongues? He stayed in the Throat of the World nearly all the time after Alduin was banished, but you never know, maybe he came down the mountain every now and then to talk others who know the Thu'um.

plain cosmos
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We don't know. He seems to have trained in the Way of the Voice under Jurgen, and considered Jurgen a friend, but we don't have specifics on when they met.

coarse skiff
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Look upon the face of Boethiah and wonder. Raise your arms so that Boethiah may look on them and bestow a blessing. Know that battle is a blessing. Know that death is an eventuality. Know that you are dust in the eyes of Boethiah.

Long is the arm of Boethiah, and swift is the blade.
Deep is the cut, and subtle is the poison
Worship, o faithful. Pray your death is short.
Worship, o faithful. Pray your death is quiet.
Worship, o faithful. Worship the glory that is Boethiah

amazing - I wonder who wrote these Poems in the games
Was this Kirkbride?

plain cosmos
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Unsure. Kirkbride wrote some stuff, but TES has had many writers. It's not Kirkbride's creation, it's been a collective effort by dozens of people.

coarse skiff
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A discussion on Moon Sugar

Does Moon Sugar only grow in Elswyr? Has it ever grown outside of Elswyr?
Also it was illegal to trade it in the 2nd and 3rd ERA in Morrowind. What about Cyrodil at that time? (While playing Oblivion, do we encounter it?)
I assume in the 4th Era it was not illegal anymore as we see Apothecaries selling them openly when playing Skyrim. Why do u think the empire changed thier view?

Would love to know your thoughts. Thank you

sweet plume
coarse skiff
raw grail
# drifting vale The Imperial college for the voice failed because Tiber wanted to reincorporate ...

I... Don't think that's why the college failed. The only passage to ever talk about the college has an annotation talking about how it's filled with charlatans and street performers. It'd seem it just wasn't able to keep legitimate teachers or the Voice in it. Provided, that is thanks to the Greybeards having basically a monopoly on the Voice, but indirectly, rather than some "the gods wanted x" sort of thing

drifting vale
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Who knows, almost nothing is explicit on lore. Most of it is left for the lector to make something out of it. And I'd go with the gods will since Jurgen founded the way of the voice, which that's where the greybeards come from, and they didn't fail.

raw grail
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Jurgen founded the way of the Voice and then all the other masters followed him. They succeed because they have control of almost all teachers of the Voice. Claiming the will of the gods is a big claim without any specific evidence, unless I've just missed it. Compare that to:

Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned

The 17 disputants could not shout Him down

Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of the World
And:
Septim's new college is staffed by hacks and charlatans ~ the so-called Grand Master is said to have formerly earned his living as a street performer in Windhelm - the students are scions of the most obsequious Nord families, hoping to curry favor with Tiber Septim's New Order -
Provided, these are obviously biased claims, but "it might have been the Greybeards having a monopoly + we have suggestions that the school was full of fakes" sits better with me than effectively appealing to the god of the gaps

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Provided, it's just my take based on the evidence I've seen KS_AniShrug presumably yours was formed the same way

plain cosmos
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We also know that the 'Gods' angle wasn't really the case. The Thu'um isn't unbeatable, and they simply lost against the united Chimer and Dwemer alliance. The gods didn't even teach them the voice in the first place, we now know it was a traitorous Dragon that did that. And Paarthy doesn't mention Kyne anywhere.

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The involvement of the gods in the Thu'um has effectively been stripped away to nothing at this point.

raw grail
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I could buy a theory that proposes that these are events which gods were trying to bring about, but it doesn't seem like a very sound way to dismiss other theories, if that makes sense. Like perhaps Kyne did in fact call Paarth... He doesn't mention it, but it could still be true. Buuut, ultimately, at that point, it's Kyne acting through Paarth, yk? Paarth was involved either way, and in this case the part that's in question is the gods' involvement, not Paarth's. The gods wanting the Greybeards in charge of the Thu'um does not dismiss the fact that things had to happen first. In the same way, perhaps the gods could have intentionally set up the College of the Voice's failure...

But those are really big claims to make without evidence and once again feels like the god of the gaps, particularly when used to replace or dismiss or counter another theory. "We don't know what caused it, so it was the gods"

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. Jacob's Teapot and all that.

#

When you are presented with exactly the situation where you would expect to see evidence of X, and find no evidence of X, then absence of evidence CAN in fact be evidence of absence.

sharp lantern
#

I mean, being able to defeat 17 Tongues of the militant school is pretty impressive. The fact that Jurgen's philosophy totally extinguished a part of Nord warrior combat culture isn't something to be ignored.

plain cosmos
#

Beyond the fact that Warrior Cultures are prone to particularly capable individuals radically shifting their political and social landscape, and the nature of the Thu'um it's self reinforces Might Makes Right.

#

So Jurgen simply being the strongest, makes his ideas correct. End of story.

#

The myth of him dueling the other Masters doesn't say he did so all at once (and thus implying he was mightier than the 17 COMBINED next strongest).

sharp lantern
#

Unless if you believe there were only 17 other Tongues, that idea makes no sense.

#

It would only make sense if those 17 were the strongest of the Tongues as well - sent out to represent the militant school. Otherwise, why would anyone care that Jurgen beat some other Tongues?

raw grail
#

I had always taken them to be the other masters of the Thu'um

#

He tried spreading his teachings, the 17 took issue with it, he withstood their Voices and showed them he was right

"He was a great war leader of the ancient Nords, a master of the Voice, or Tongue. After the disaster at Red Mountain, where the Nord army was annihilated, he spent many years pondering the meaning of that terrible defeat. He finally came to realize that the gods had punished the Nords for their arrogant and blasphemous misuse of the Voice. He was the first to understand that the Voice should be used solely for the glory and worship of the gods, not the glory of men. Jurgen Windcaller's mastery of the Voice eventually overcame all opposition, and the Way of the Voice was born.

#

But, alas for the Nords, one of the mightiest of all the Tongues, Jurgen Windcaller (or The Calm, as he is better known today), became converted to a pacifist creed that denounced use of the Voice for martial exploits. His philosophy prevailed, largely due to his unshakable mastery of the Voice -- his victory was sealed in a legendary confrontation, where The Calm is said to have "swallowed the Shouts" of seventeen Tongues of the militant school for three days until his opponents all lay exhausted (and then became his disciples). Today, the most ancient and powerful of the Tongues live secluded on the highest peaks in contemplation [...]

raw grail
raw grail
#

I think he might've just withstood them for so long that they became exhausted

#

It reminds me of the Greybeards withstanding our Thu'um, and us and Paarthurnax exchanging Fire Breath, and us withstanding the Greybeards' Shouted speech about Ysmir

#

It also reminds me of Paarth's meditation on Balance

#

In mastering balance, you become more resistant to it. In mastering the Thu'um, I believe one becomes more resistant to it

#

I think this also feeds into the etching on the event

Emblem VII

The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled

Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year Meditation

To understand how Strong Voices could fail

Emblem VIII

Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned

The 17 disputants could not shout Him down

Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of
the World
It seems to me that he showed them he was right by showing them their voices could fail without even actually forcing them into submission

plain cosmos
#

True. It's possible he just outlasted them, and they bowed to his way simply because they couldn't beat him down.

#

Fits the the Pacifism of the Greybeards better that way, anyway

raw grail
sweet plume
#

I love lore, I love Elder Scrolls Lore, I love Fallout Lore, and soon… I’ll love Starfield Lore.

#

Can’t wait for the eventual Starfield Lore Channel here.

plain cosmos
#

Ill admit, I've somewhat fallen behind on more recent TES lore, after my disappointment with High Isle. I really need to get back into things...

plain cosmos
#

Though, I'll admit, what passes for scholarship in the lore community these days does not encourage the effort...

sweet plume
#

What?

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Just some recent interactions in other lore groups.

#

There is a growing tendency to fabricate sources because one wants them to exist, misrepresent known facts to suit a narrative, and a general infiltration of Fan Fiction into lore discussions which... Honestly turn me off from having them.

#

In this case, specifically the notion that the Left-handers enslaved the Yokudans, Alduin's motivations in Skyrim, and some ludicrous idea that the one behind Mede's assassination is a Septim

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah. You can't assume something exists, just because it needs to in order to support your conclusions.

sharp lantern
# plain cosmos In this case, specifically the notion that the Left-handers enslaved the Yokudan...

Those sound... interesting... though I can't imagine how people would believe any of those things are part of the 'lore'.

We know close to nothing of the Left-Handed Elves, barring their name.

Alduin's motivations in Skyrim... I mean, it's never really explicitly stated. What do the theories state?

As for Mede's assassination, we are told by Amaund that it's meant to mimic the assassination of Pelagius in that it brings about a change in Imperial policy, but we lack details. I certainly don't see why (let alone how) a Septim would be involved.

plain cosmos
#

The earliest mention we have of the Left-handers, is the Yokudans fighting amongst themselves for the honour of leading the war against them. Thats it. The individual in question here was claiming that obviously the Left-handers were to blame, and we just don't have the source to tell us why yet.

As far as Alduin goes... A popular theory is that he was trying to rebuild his kingdom. This is based on a translation for the Kynesgrove dialogue that can be found in the game files. However, a lot of stuff that was later discarded can be found in the game files. At the same time, literally no one in Skyrim even posits this as a threat, and the entire narrative focuses on Alduin as the World Eater. So it's difficult to conclusively say he wanted to take over the world.

And finally... Honestly, I think it was mostly just the usual 'Septims am teh greetest!' tripe that's become common. Lore community praise for absolutely vile individuals like Tiber Septim and Pelinal is at an all time high in lore circles it seems.

sharp lantern
#

Oof

#

Tbh, the Septims were kind of overrated, ngl. Outside of a few they really weren't that great rulers.

#

I once did a whole timetable to compare their rule to the Medes in regards to wars and the like... Let's just say that based on what we know at present, the Septims suffered from far more internal fighting than the Medes do.

#

Granted, they did rule more of Tamriel... But that should've also allowed there to be more Legions to prevent such acts.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Total years of peace (or at least lack of mentioned activity) the Medes have almost as many years, in less than half the reign.

sharp lantern
#

Went and found the timetable:

3E 64 to 3E 82: The Empire is plagued with blights, plagues, and insurrections under the rule of Uriel Septim II.
3E 98 to 3E 119: Under the rule of Emperor Antiochus Septim, the Empire is rife with civil wars and a foreign Invasion by the Maormer of Pyandonea nearly took Summerset away from the Empire, only failing to do so in part because of the Psijic Order.
3E 120 to 3E 137: Under the reigns of several Emperors, Tamriel saw itself involved in a continental civil war known as the War of the Red Diamond, with Skyrim, northern Morrowind and High Rock openly defying the Empire to place their own candidate on the throne. The remaining provinces, barring Cyrodiil, were divided in their loyalty. The rule of Emperor Cephorus was marked by nothing but war.
3E 247 to 3E 258: Another civil war between the forces loyal to Andorak Septim fought against the forces of Cephorus Septim II, another succession crisis directly related to the Elder Council.
3E 249 to 3E 267: The Camoran Usurper takes power in Valenwood, cutting a bloody swath through the Empire under the reign of Cephorus Septim II. The Usurper was able to march all the way to High Rock, taking over countless regions in his wake, being in charge of Hammerfell and Valenwood both. His defeat at the hands of the armies of High Rock fiefdoms increased hostility towards the Empire due to their ineffective responses against the Usurper. The internal strife as the aftermath was only somewhat healed because Uriel V invaded Akavir and brought about a common enemy, but his invasion failed in two years time, bringing about the deaths of countless Legionnaires.

#

3E 317 to 3E 339: Empress Morihatha took over. The Empire's reach beyond Cyrodiil had started to disintegrate, open revolutions and civil wars had raged in the provinces since the days of Cephorus Septim II (3E 247). Morihatha slowly dealt with the uprisings. While successful her slow pace annoyed the Elder Council, resulting in her assassination in 3E 339, supposedly at the call of an Argonian councilor who considered her pace too slow for troubled Black Marsh.
3E 339 to 3E 368: Pelagius Septim VII continued where his predecessor left off, slowly taking back the revolutionary regions of the Empire. While not as successful as his predecessor, a result of Pelagius placing an Imperial presence on kingdoms which had long been on their own, Pelagius brought about stability which had not been seen since the days of Uriel Septim I (3E 48 to 3E 64).
3E 389 to 3E 399: Under the rule of Uriel Septim VII, Jagar Tharn takes control of the Empire, puting a halt to the Imperial reconquests that Uriel had enacted before being trapped. The Imperial Simulacrum saw strife and war aplenty. The Imperial Battlespire, testing ground for the Shadow Legion, was taken over by Daedra before its destruction, Skyrim invaded High Rock and Hammerfell during the War of Bend'r Mahk, Black Marsh and Morrowind were involved in a war known as the Arnesian War which saw Morrowind take over parts of northern Black Marsh. When King Helseth of Morrowind later outlawed slavery at the wishes of the Empire he too faced a bloody Civil war when House Indoril was involved in a House War with the Hlaalu and Dres.

plain cosmos
#

Now, to be fair, it is possible that we just haven't been TOLD about more problems during the Mede Dynasty. But as with the Left-handers thing... We have to make judgements based on what we have

sharp lantern
#

We know that there was a Thalmor-backed seperatist group in Cyrodiil known as the ''Natives'' at the time of the Novels. And you of course had the Reachmen, and later on the Stormcloaks, but that's also about all that we know of.

#

Elsweyr and its Void Nights, and depending on when Titus Mede came to the throne, perhaps Valenwood or Summerset or both.

#

I don't believe in the popular 4E 17 date as the year when Titus Mede became Emperor, tbh.

plain cosmos
#

Even in the 4e30s his reign seemed relatively shaky. And there were others conspiring to try and take the throne from him

sweet plume
# plain cosmos The earliest mention we have of the Left-handers, is the Yokudans fighting among...

Yeah I don’t get praising Septims so readily, I mean not all of them were necessarily bad people, I look at Martin as the one legitimately nice Septim in the short time I knew him, but The Empire’s Legacy is still built on a lot of Tiber’s Horrendous actions.

As for Pelinal, during Whitestrakes Mayhem in ESO one of the Imperials even told the one speaking about the Glory of Pelinal’s Deeds against The Ayelids that she should word the Sermon differently, as in the small audience that gathered are High Elves, Wood Elves, & Khajiit. It’s blind fanaticism vs the ones who’s people were targeted and are likely to pounce on any moment.

glacial scarab
sweet plume
#

Having another Septim would undo the impact of 4 being the end of a Era, in a literal sense.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed.

#

Besides, it's time for the Empire to die. As much as I hate Tiber and loathe agreeing with him (Wulf) it's time for something new.

#

What the Empire needs is a visionary leader who pulls a reverse Rome, and pushes the Empire towards a Republic.

sharp lantern
#

Fun fact: The Third Empire under the Septims saw the longest period of uninterrupted peace when the Elder Council held most of the power.

plain cosmos
#

Never put Dragonborn in charge. They're all Ego and Ambition.

gaunt bear
glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

If you were to just draw from Roman influences, yeah. However, you could take more from the British Empire's shift more and more towards parliamentary power, with the King being relegated to a figure head in both practical and legal sense.

shell basin
#

and indeed the wider British Empire's (relatively, compared to the break-up of other empires) peaceful transition into the Commonwealth.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Something 'New' doesn't require doom and gloom. Especially when there's still plenty of threats out there to face, without constantly needing to lean on corrupt political structures and crumbling institutions.

split pond
#

Do the Greybeards and/or Paarthurnax know of the Bend Will shout?

gaunt bear
#

I dunno.

plucky mortar
#

Love the Argonian lore

gaunt bear
#

What I can say is that, if they do find out about it, as well as the Soul Tear shout, they will declare it as not part of the Way of the Voice.

onyx wren
gaunt bear
plucky mortar
#

So reading up argonians worship sithis isn’t that the evil dark brotherhood cult thingy 👀

#

I thought they were the good guys / well not good guys I don’t think any race is TES is good all got a history

sweet plume
plucky mortar
#

I’ve read about shadow scales but just didn’t know they were into the dark brotherhood thought they were a bunch of murders

sweet plume
#

They don’t have to join the Organization but are trained and have the option to or go back to Black Marsh and serve as Ku-vastei, the agents of needed change and arbiters.

plucky mortar
#

I see and do argonians view sithis the same way as the dark brotherhood I guess I’m trying to see if lizard people are good people and not evil

sweet plume
#

Depends on the Shadowscale and Argonian I’d say, as not every Argonian Worships Sithis with Murder in mind.

sweet plume
plucky mortar
#

I see thanks love learning. All the lore

pastel sorrel
#

To the Argonians, he is change, and they embrace it as a fundamental part of their societies. Their forms, sexes and even incarnations change as the Hist wish, they don't build a whole lot of permanent structures anymore, they just roll with whatever comes.

#

Even the Dark Brotherhood aren't orthodoxically evil. Individuals may be there out of genuine malevolence, but the organization in general thinks they're just fulfilling a function of the world.

plain cosmos
#

Nah, the Dark Brotherhood is specifically, comically evil. It's why they're arguably the tackiest and most poorly written faction in the franchise, and destroying them in Skyrim is always the right decision.

robust lintel
sweet plume
sweet plume
#

Naturally when it comes to an Assassination Guild there will be various personalities and some of them will naturally revel in there job more than others.

#

The Head of the Dark Brotherhood Chapter in ESO never jokes, she literally never smiles, she just tells you to do the work and nothing more, same with the Speaker, he doesn’t make any quippy remarks and just sends you on your task.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, I don't mean intentionally funny.

frail mango
#

I think he means more along the lines of they are stereotypically edgy. The comical and obvious bad guy.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed

#

There's so little nuance, depth, and range with the Dark Brotherhood that they just blatantly and comically evil.

#

Like, you see them, and instantly know without a doubt that they are the bad guys.

#

Putting them in a similar boat as The Sith, and Dr. Claw.

sweet plume
frail mango
#

However, in Skyrim...

#

They're all murder hobos

plain cosmos
#

Nah, I found Skyrim's at least a touch more palpable than Oblivion's.

#

Oblivion was just so... Sunday Cartoon evil. Like He-man villian..

#

In general, though, everything Oblivion did was enough to make me worried about Starfield when it's described as 'More Oblivion than Skyrim'.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I hope I am.

sweet plume
# plain cosmos I hope I am.

More Oblivion than Skyrim could mean other things, it may mean more color in comparison to Skyrim which doesn’t have much of it.

gusty chasm
#

I think it means it has deeper roleplaying mechanics

#

Todd even said that they went too far with the simplification in Skyrim

#

So I think they are returning to slightly more complex systems.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

People will argue Skyrim put more simplification after Oblivion and that wasn’t as well received.

plain cosmos
#

People argue lots of factually wrong things..

#

But, I'll say no more on the topic here. It's not the appropriate place.

frail mango
plain cosmos
#

They're not even functional at a systemic level. But I chock that up limited understanding by the writers of how institutions actually work

sweet plume
#

It was intentionally written to be hammy when you think about it, ESO’s wasn’t even like Oblivions or Skyrim’s to that degree.

plain cosmos
#

Sort of like how I can give a pass to 'Strategic brilliance' of characters whose strategies are absolutely moronic (cough Commander Chenkov cough)

sweet plume
#

Which any Cult if you think about it will have different personalities of horrible people, some revel in it, others are less so reveling and look at it as doing it for Sithis.

plain cosmos
#

ESO did relatively well, with what it was working with.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Oh, I know. I've gone through it.

#

It does inadvertently make Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood more terrible though.

sweet plume
#

It of course has some who casually talk of there contracts and taking certain enjoyment in it but it feels more natural within the whole DLC, it’s definitely the one I see where it balances out that the Dark Brotherhood can be dark with it’s jokes and can still have that element without turning it to 100

#

Which is definitely how they should be handled in comparison really, it’s the best way.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. But it still leaves the fundamentally problematic cult aspect, and entirely dysfunctional organisation of the entire thing, which is another problem

#

The core issue is, it was designed to be a dark reflection of the Catholic Church. By someone who clearly barely understood the church at anything but a basic churchgoers level

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

The Tong is basically superior in every way. Including the religious asepct

sweet plume
#

I personally am not that fond of the Tong.

#

Like I get they have better structure but even then they are more Based in Morrowind. where I feel it’s naturally gonna be more tight Knit.

#

The Dark Brotherhood is a bunch of Sanctuary’s in the various provinces, how many in one province alone is a Mystery and is more likely just one group in each province, but we know nothing more about the general structure which is an issue yes.

plain cosmos
#

And that's part of the problem with the Brotherhood in general.

#

It has 5 leaders. And a single source of contracts. And yet somehow manages to justify such an immense network across a continent of tens of millions of people?

#

It's TOO big, TOO well organised, and TOO ubiquitous to actually function the way we're told it does.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

If, maybe, the Black Hand were just an inner circle of leaders who managed large swaths of territory, and fulfilled specific rare contracts from the Night Mother while the majority of the organisation functioned more like a violent Criminal Syndicate, dabbling in assassination, smuggling and prostitution... Well then it could make a bit of sense

#

But as it is... It long passed the point where my suspension of disbelief could accommodate

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Agreed.

#

It's probably more that Oblivion's left such a bad taste in my mouth, it's hard to appreciate the improvements.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Absolitely

#

ESOs been the best contribution to TES since Morrowind, in that regard.

frail mango
#

In most regards I'd say. For those who appreciate the stories and lore within the Elder Scrolls universe ESO has some of the best to offer and does so without breaking it's own or other TES games continuity. My only gripe is that they haven't done a great job at explaining the years events take place. You're telling me all of that happens in 2E 582? I just don't buy it. Especially not since the release of High Isle.

#

Also since the Three Banner War (Unless they decide to shed new light on it) has roughly 300 years before we know it really finds a conclusion.

sweet plume
frail mango
#

100% and if you're a nerd like me Nerd and have characters you've made to work into the lore it's rather challenging to do.

For example these characters a buddy and I have been working on are based in 2E 600's. But we have stories with family members and distant relatives going back all the way to 1E 2857. If at any point they decide to change the length of the Three Banners War or any of the in game events we have generations to change because it wasn't already laid out for us.

But that's just me nit picking. I still think ESO in regards of the entire ES universe is the best from a lore standpoint.

#

A fine example being the Aldmeri Dominion and the Veild Heritence. If you follow those storylines you'll learn that the way they are in later games was never the intention of the AD. But the goal of the Veil. But due to lazy story writing we get the "Altmer Bad" standpoint rather than the truth behind why "Altmer Bad"

shell basin
#

In Skyrim though you do get some of the books which kind of explain how the Altmer society turned bad - and assassinated many of the dissidents within their own society who tried to warn the Empire what was going on under the surface - in the "Rising Threat" series, we hear about one Rynandor who was one of the few who survived the fall of the Crystal Tower, through the eyes of one of his supporters, Lathenil of Sunhold (who himself met a violent end not long after the publication of his books, which were viewed as fear-mongering at the time but have since proved to be more than accurate.)

The Thalmor, even before then, seem to have long since become the hardline xenophobes that we see in ESO's Veiled Heritance, rather than the more open and outward-looking version from Queen Ayrenn's loyalists.

(And given that one of the Heritance's erstwhile Second Age leaders, Kinlady Estre, actually worshipped Mehrunes Dagon, this may be a subtle hint in ESO towards the possibility of the Heritance of her day having infiltrated and effectively become the Thalmor of subsequent eras - and perhaps having supported rather than opposed the Oblivion Crisis, and given covert backing to Mankar Camoran and his Dagon-worshipping Mythic Dawn Cult.)

frail mango
#

True, but tell that to the subreddit for example. The majority of TES fans now a days, or at least the jocksh kind just play the game and go off of what is blatantly stated and laid out for them. I only wish they made things like this more commonly known. It'd save everyone a lot of arguing and a lot of time.

And the bit about the Thalmor I have to disagree with. If you've done certain quests in Auridon you'll see it more actively. Like the one for example where the Veil has taken over a Thalmor training college. Forcing their xenophobic ideals on the students. Then after the Veil snuffed out of the college the (prominently Altmer) instructors were open to all races that wanted to better serve the Dominion.

This however, was just one example. One that I feel rather strongly about but If you took the time to dig enough I feel like it's pretty easy to find that while the games are great, Bethesda, especially in later years seemed to care less and less about the lore that was written prior.

shell basin
#

What I was meaning was that, in ESO time while Ayrenn was in charge, the Thalmor were open to all, and the attempts by the Veiled Heritance to take them over were largely rebuffed (the various Vestiges being responsible for this). Unfortunately this evidently did not continue forever.

frail mango
#

I may have interpreted the Thalmor bit wrong. I see what you mean now.

frail mango
shell basin
#

And well, Zenimax does have a tendency to care less about lore than Bethesda does... but a lot of Bethesda lore is itself confusing and contradictory. They basically pulled a great deal of it out of their collective behinds over the general period of writing Daggerfall and Morrowind, and then promptly retconned various chunks of it out as quickly as they'd written them in in the first place (Ebonarm, anyone?)

If anything I see Zenimax as trying to be a little more consistent to itself than Bethesda ever was to itself, even if Zenimax lore is not always consistent to Bethesda lore.

#

ESO has the problem that they always want to throw the player in to the latest expansion - including the new player - because if the new player started at the beginning, they could potentially take months or even years to get to the new contnet they'd paid for.

But this results in content having to be played "out of canonical order", giving rise to the idea that "there is no canonical order". In fact, I believe that there actually is, and that the story technically lasts over literal years in-world, and in-order, with the player jumping back and forth in the timeline.

frail mango
#

If I can find the chat I'll send some of the things he said that opened my eyes to that.

shell basin
#

So. Technically it's possible for the player in ESO to meet the Gray Host, and the problems of Western Skyrim, long before ever having taken a side in the Three Banners War or invaded Coldharbour - but canonically helping out their own faction and invading Coldharbour came first. Likewise, canonically one particular person got sacrificed at the end of the Coldharbour storyline, though the player actually has two alternative non-canonical options at that point.

#

Honestly sometimes I think one place where Bethesda really screwed itself over was when they couldn't decide which of the half-dozen possible and contradictory endings of Daggerfall was the "canonical" one, so they said "Screw it, we'll declare them ALL simultaneously to be canon, by means of Divine Doublethink".

sweet plume
frail mango
# shell basin ESO has the problem that they always want to throw the player in to the latest e...

I can also agree with that. I've introduced my friends to ESO and regardless of their faction they are always started in the latest expansion area. I can understand how it can be daunting for new players to get started or even understand what's going on because of it. But, at least they didn't do what Destiny did and maybe some other games similar where they lock new players out of the early content.

frail mango
frail mango
#

They're staying more consistent. And if you read the Žaneta Cornicles you'll see that they are trying to expand the universe but not break any continuity.

shell basin
#

And now ESO has written themselves into a position where they can never kill off any of their Major Players in one storyline if there is any chance of them being needed in another storyline. Because it was confusing enough when they allowed the players to kill off a couple of people who then appeared in a "subsequent" storyline, but gets even more confusing when it's a "previous" storyline that they appear in but the player is able to play the game out of order and thus meet the later story before the earlier one and doesn't even know there is a timeline.

sweet plume
frail mango
#

While that is true and could be a problem, I think that's far easier to fix than some other problems.

shell basin
#

And their latest trick is to write in a completely new Daedric Prince... Who does not appear in any "previous" game in the series which is actually a "subsequent" game becuase they're all Third and Fourth Age whereas ESO is Second Age... So they're going to have to get rid of him again

frail mango
#

I haven't played Necrom. All I know is Papa Hermie Mermie shows up and thats about it.

shell basin
#

I think between Morrowind and Oblivion, Bethesda decided that there would be an official canon, and some things that the player could do in "Morrowind" were not in it. For instance, the Nerevarine did NOT murder all the Telvanni lords according to Trebonius Artorius's second (and difficult to find) quest: nor did he murder Vivec, who was taken by the Daedra at the start of the Oblivion Crisis.

They didn't make any stipulation either way as to whether the player sided canonically with the Fighters or Thieves Guild in the conflict between the two

sweet plume
shell basin
#

Okay, her. Mephala and Boethiah have both changed sex at least twice, so Daedra are mutable that way, but I appear to have misgendered this particular one according to what I remember...

Okay, they.

frail mango
#

Also they're Daedric Princes. They aren't bound to genders.

sweet plume
shell basin
#

I also notice that the Daedra seem to be canonically getting less powerful as the timeline moves on. In ESO - and indeed in the lore of TES3, 4 and 5 talking about First and Second age times - they have literally walked the earth and manifested on an unfortunately frequent basis. In Morrowind, the quests they give to the player are comparatively trivial foibles. Of course, Oblivion is an attempt by Mehrunes Dagon to make himself relevant again, and the other Daedra seem to be if anything screaming out for attention by demanding greater atrocities from the player - you have to do some pretty squicky things in Skyrim, but on the other hand, you don't have to do them, and some of them seem to have almost given up. Clavicus Vile, for example, just wants you to slaughter his last couple of dozen remaining worshippers, who are vampires and thus won't die of old age... he's actually killing off his own last few cultists, like he's trying to get out of Nirn before the rush. and toddle off into the sunset with Barbas... Molag Bal will settle for vengeance on one cultist who has been actively profaning his shrine. Even Mehrunes Dagon only wants you to find his dagger which basically involves a fight with a few Dremora and his own last cultist in Skyrim.

sweet plume
frail mango
#

Completely different topic so don't let this distract you.

One thing that's been on my mind for a while is new creatures and monsters in TES. While TES can be rather dark at times I think we lack certain creatures that make the universe more scary. For example the Plague Maidens or Striga's from the Witcher games. Or just other creatures from other fantasy elements like D&D. Manticores, Fiend's, Mimics. Just creating more fantasy creatures would be a great way to expand the world.

I'm all for feeling the atmosphere and love when it's done right. But, you can only fight so many Dramora and them be the spooky villains.

sweet plume
shell basin
#

Manticores (or Mantikoras) appear to be something of an experiment, seen partly in The Deadlands and partly among the cultists of the Serpent celestial constellation in Craglorn, but don't seem to have gotten further into the world than that. Perhaps they were a sterile experiment in hybridization.

sweet plume
shell basin
#

And in some cases there seems to be a somewhat fluid line between Aedra and Daedra

#

Who knows. The Hero of Cyrodiil took on the mantle of Sheogorath... perhaps the whole (comparatively short at only 200 years) Fourth Age is basically The World Gone Mad...

#

I like to look at little contradictions, such as the founding of Rorikstead being recent (according to Rorik in "Skyrim"), yet references to it exist in documentation that goes back as far as the First Age as Rorik's Steading... And make up stories to account for this. Such as: "Rorik is really, in fact, a very old vampire. The founder, refounder, lord and protector of the town, who takes his price occasionally as he needs sustenance but does not kill his people or turn them: indeed, like Hassildor of Skingrad, he actually keeps other vampires down. Every so often, somebody outs him, calls him a monster and kills him... then ill-fortune of some sort destroys the town, which has lost its protector. Then perhaps decades later, someone spills a drop of blood in the wrong place - or the right place - and Rorik returns, and works to rebuild his town again..."

And "On one occasion, a Jarl saw the apparently fertile land around it, and chartered a town there themselves. It was near the end of the Third Age, during the Tharn Imposture, and they decided to break with tradition and called the town by the new name of Lainalten. It didn't last very long, and was razed during the Great War against the Thalmor. Then, after the Elves were driven back - after the spilling of much blood in the war - a "war hero named Rorik of uncertain origin" purchased the land, applied for the charter to found a town there, and Rorikstead was reborn once again... and the place was not touched, either by the nearby Dragons from the mound, or by the Forsworn of the Reach, nor even by the Civil War against the Stormcloaks. For its lord had returned, the lord who was the land, and the place was under his protection once again."

sweet plume
shell basin
#

Indeed, and Cropsford is founded during "Oblivion" yet was around in ESO... You could say "refounded in the same place having been razed by some war or other in the intervening time" as a justification. But I think my Rorikstead story is a bit more fun 🙂

sweet plume
# shell basin Indeed, and Cropsford is *founded* during "Oblivion" yet was around in ESO... Yo...

I mean refounded is a thing so yeah that could always work, that’s retroactive continuity for ya, I mean Seyda Neen is another example, in Morrowind we got the idea that Seyda Neen Was founded when the Empire began to colonize on Vvardenfell, ESO has Seyda Neen and instead the story for that location by then is that it was allowed to be made as a Port for the Gold Coast Trading Company to deliver goods to Vvardenfell.

frail mango
shell basin
#

I don't get the way that, in the lore, entire constellations and moons can disappear... And then reappear. Whether it's the stars walking the earth as avatars in Craglorn (ESO) while still being fully visible in the sky in the rest of Tamriel (for if they were not, it would have been remarked on) - or the moons disappearing for two years in the Fourth Age but apparently only the Khajiit really cared about it because their religion is so much based on the moons...

frail mango
#

I think that's one of the things you're not supposed to ask about.

#

The Craglorn one I can see being as simple as gameplay purposes

pastel sorrel
#

Or you're assuming that their forms in Craglorn are their actual selves and not just like physical manifestations they're projecting down.

#

the Deadlands don't stop being where they are just because Dagon shows up on Nirn in TES4.

glacial scarab
shell basin
#

though part of the hook to get people to go to Craglorn is "The stars have vanished from the sky" as told you by the announcing quest-giver. So evidently it was only in Craglorn that this was a thing...

But then, Elder Scrolls Lore Is Weird.

plain cosmos
raw grail
#

Okay ig. I don't care enough to type all that back up

#

Sorry for ghost ping

robust lintel
#

Alongside Tamriel, think they'll let us explore Aetherius a bit in the next game? Would be cool to dive on in with one of those Aetherbells 🤩

raw grail
#

Technically, Skyrim, ESO, and Daggerfall have all let us explore planes in Aetherius a little

#

I doubt we'll get like, travelling between planes of Aetherius, if that's what you mean. That sounds like a crazy big leap. The way I'm thinking about it, traveling Oblivion seems much more likely, and that doesn't seem terribly likely either imo, yk?

#

It'd probably be pretty cool either way tho

sweet plume
#

Bethesda and Zeni tend to stick to the Princes, as a result the Divines tend to be rather underdeveloped in comparison at times.

raw grail
#

That's also true

#

And the Magne-Ge get even more development than the Aedra

#

The Daedra are given a very in-your-face role, and Oblivion therefore also gets a lot more presence, which contributes a lot to why I think traveling Oblivion is more likely than traveling Aetherius

marble oar
#

I mean are the divines called dead gods for a reason?

raw grail
raw grail
#

although, they could still give more divine-related quests, and we have seen that divine artifacts exist (although they're exceedingly rare). it'd be cool to see some of that stuff highlighted, and get more Aedra lore, even if the Daedra get the front-and-center spotlight, as their role and state kind of demand

#

Kyne, Dibella, and Mara's quests in Skyrim were pretty cool, tbh

#

Kyne's especially

void kayak
#

Does an Orc Dragonborn work, from a lore perspective?

proven moss
#

Yes

oblique pine
#

I think the protagonists can canonically be any race

proven moss
#

Remember, the Dragon Blood is a blessing from the gods

void kayak
#

Akatosh, yes

oblique pine
#

heck, I'm an argonian

void kayak
#

Why would Akatosh choose an accursed orc to be dragonborn?

proven moss
#

They have their reasons

void kayak
#

Cause basically this is what I want to do. I want to create an Orc Dragonborn, who does all the things. And then, in a story, he unifies Tamriel like Tiber Septim did, mantaling the position of Talos. He creates a new empire, with him as ruler. His family still follows Orc tradition, with his daughters forming an Elite Fighting Unit called Daughters of the Dragon.

#

I just...it's the sticking point of an Orc being Dragonborn. Part of it just doesn't make sense to me.

#

I imagine the Aedra view all races as their children, right?

raw grail
#

as far as i can tell, it is almost literally true

#

although i can't imagine gods birthed mortals the way that we generally imagine birth to work

void kayak
#

Right. Metaphysical, mythical birth

raw grail
#

yeah, exactly

#

the Cyrodiilic portion of the Monomyth does actually talk about this kind of stuff, but we have to keep in mind that it's coming from the perspective of the Imperials, whose primary identifying factor is unity and basically imperialism (shocker) and cosmopolitanism and stuff, so the whole point is to be kinda inclusive. it even breaks up the different pantheons into entirely separate entities, which is kind of unique among the creation myths. most (besides Shor's death in the Nordic religion, kind of) talk about just their own version of the gods. anyways, here it is:

Cyrodiilic [sic] "Shezarr's Song"
"This was a new thing that Shezarr described to the Gods, becoming mothers and fathers, being responsible, and making great sacrifices, with no guarantee of success, but Shezarr spoke beautifully to them, and moved them beyond mystery and tears. Thus the Aedra gave free birth to the world, the beasts, and the beings, making these things from parts of themselves. This free birth was very painful, and afterwards the Aedra were no longer young, and strong, and powerful, as they had been from the beginning of days.

"Some Aedra were disappointed and bitter in their loss, and angry with Shezarr, and with all creation, for they felt Shezarr had lied and tricked them. These Aedra, the Gods of the Aldmer, led by Auri-El, were disgusted by their enfeebled selves, and by what they had created. 'Everything is spoiled, for now, and for all time, and the most we can do is teach the Elven Races to suffer nobly, with dignity, and chastise ourselves for our folly, and avenge ourselves upon Shezarr and his allies.' Thus are the Gods of the Elves dark and brooding, and thus are the Elves ever dissatisfied with mortality, and always proud and stoic despite the harshness of this cruel and indifferent world.

"Other Aedra looked upon creation, and were well pleased. These Aedra, the Gods of Men and Beast Folk, led by Akatosh, praised and cherished their wards, the Mortal Races. 'We have suffered, and are diminished, for all time, but the mortal world we have made is glorious, filling our hearts and spirits with hope. Let us teach the Mortal Races to live well, to cherish beauty and honor, and to love one another as we love them.' Thus are the Gods of Men tender and patient, and thus are Men and Beast Folk great in heart for joy or suffering, and ambitious for greater wisdom and a better world.

"Now when the Daedra Lords heard Shezarr, they mocked him, and the other Aedra. 'Cut parts of ourselves off? And lose them? Forever? That's stupid! You'll be sorry! We are far smarter than you, for we will create a new world out of ourselves, but we will not cut it off, or let it mock us, but we will make this world within ourselves, forever ours, and under our complete control.'

"So the Daedra Lords created the Daedric Realms, and all the ranks of Lesser Daedra, great and small. And, for the most part, the Daedra Lords were well pleased with this arrangement, for they always had worshippers and servants and playthings close to hand. But, at the same time, they sometimes looked with envy upon the Mortal Realms, for though mortals were foul and feeble and contemptible, their passions and ambitions were also far more surprising and entertaining than the antics of the Lesser Daedra. Thus do the Daedra Lords court and seduce certain amusing specimens of the Mortal Races, especially the passionate and powerful. It gives the Daedra Lords special pleasure to steal away from Shezarr and the Aedra the greatest and most ambitious mortals. 'Not only are you fools to mutilate yourselves,' gloat the Daedra Lords, 'But you cannot even keep the best pieces, which prefer the glory and power of the Daedra Lords to the feeble vulgarity of the mush-minded Aedra.'"

void kayak
raw grail
#

They're different cultural interpretations of the same base concept/god: the dragon god of time

#

It's somewhat debatable just how different they are from one another. Generally people theorize that either:
A) the different pantheons are actually just calling the same exact god different names, and there's no real difference between them besides perspective
B) the difference versions of the gods have essentially become their own entities one way or another, and can now act independently. For example, Akatosh and Auriel could have conflict with one another, or Xarxes and Arkay could act differently from one another

plain cosmos
#

Option A seems to be the one that has been the most supported by new information over the last decade though.

raw grail
#

I'm kindofsortof in the middle. I think they're all the same gods, but that the Divines act in accordance with their followers' beliefs, and since they're gods, they don't necessarily have a limit to the actions they could take. It's all the same god, in a sense, the same body and soul, but now with different almost "personalities" acting in accordance to each pantheon, perhaps simultaneously

raw grail
plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Though I think it may be one of the things he got outvoted on. Given the wider information available.

raw grail
#

Atharaon:
Are the eight planets of the Altmer literally the same eight planets of the other Aedric religions but with different names, or are they actually different planets altogether, i.e. there are more than eight planets up there, but each group is making a selection of their own chosen eight.

Phrastus:
The answer, I believe, is mostly the former with a little bit of the latter: mythopoeia is real, or “real,” so the reality-warping force of cultural belief must be accounted for. In other words, they’re all the same planets but not exactly the same divines—and if that doesn’t make sense to you, I scarcely know where to start. Where did you say you studied, again?

plain cosmos
#

I do generally dislike using terms in woefully inappropriate contexts though...

#

Mythopoeia is an actual anthropological concept. And it has nothing to do with shaping gods...

raw grail
#

MK used it in a similar context, which is probably where it's coming from here

void kayak
raw grail
#

On the different time-dragons:

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.

void kayak
raw grail
#

Which itself probably was inspired by or related to Kagrenac's tools, which also use the word in a somewhat similar context

"Lord Kagrenac, the foremost arcane philosopher and magecrafter of my era, devised tools to shape mythopoeic forces, intending to transcend the limits of Dwemer mortality. However, in reviewing his formulae, some logicians argued that side effects were unpredictable, and errors might be catastrophic. I think Kagrenac might have succeeded in granting our race eternal life, with unforeseen consequences -- such as wholesale displacement to an Outer Realm. Or he may have erred, and utterly destroyed our race."

#

Imo, mythopoeia here seems to be talking about myth literally becoming reality, although it is a bit away from the way it's used irl foxwhoops

plain cosmos
# void kayak What do you mean?

I mean, most (as in almost all) the information we've gotten since Skyrim makes no distinction between Akatosh, Bormau(so) and Auriel, and treats them (and other cultural variant names for gods) as interchangable names rather than distinct identities.

raw grail
#

I'm really curious how the Yokudan pantheon is going to be portrayed in TES6, personally

plain cosmos
#

Poorly, probably.

void kayak
#

So can someone explain the et'Ada?

raw grail
#

My main hope is they're not almost entirely background gods, like the Nordic gods in Skyrim 😔 they got a bit more recognition than a lot of people realize, but they were still not focused on as much as I wish

#

et'Ada means Original Spirit. Basically Akatosh, Mephala, Lorkhan and the like

void kayak
#

Right. I get that part. Some with Lorkhan gave up portions of themselves ro create Mundus. They became the Aedra. Those who didn't became the Daedra, who created their own realms within themselves.

raw grail
#

Yeah

void kayak
#

But why is Trinimac considered an et'Ada?

raw grail
#

I don't know why he wouldn't be

#

Wait, you're thinking cuz he was a mortal hero

void kayak
#

So he's one of the gods who helped create Mundus?

raw grail
#

As much as Auri-El, yeah

void kayak
#

But he was also mortal.

#

Right?

plain cosmos
#

The et'Ada are, basically, simply the spirits that existed in one form or anither BEFORE creating Mundus.

raw grail
#

So was Auri-El, according to Altmeri belief

raw grail
plain cosmos
#

Maybe

void kayak
raw grail
#

Which is why things get weird if you assume they're all the exact same god taking the exact same actions being perceived through different lenses fingerguns

plain cosmos
#

Like with Malacath, we have MYTHS surrounding certain entities, but those likely aren't the whole story.

raw grail
#

Imo, at least

raw grail
void kayak
#

So it's entirely possible the Altmer are just wrong.

plain cosmos
#

Which is ultimately what Mythopoeia is. It's Myth making. Usually with limited information and context

raw grail
#

That's very possible

void kayak
#

The part that makes it confusing is we know these God's exist. They aren't just myths.

raw grail
plain cosmos
void kayak
#

Akatosh stops Merhunes Dagon. Malacath is very real. You can converse with him.

plain cosmos
#

THEY likely know. But when asked, they give rifles and half truths

raw grail
void kayak
#

I'm not talking about the excrement thing

raw grail
#

Pretty fun to see him interact with the myth a little

#

I mean that they like, acknowledge and disagree on the myths

void kayak
#

Just in general. He exists. He confirms he was Trinimac

#

So why is he considered a Daedra?

raw grail
#

Corruption by Boethiah, is the way I interpret it

void kayak
#

I find the lore really confusing.

plain cosmos
#

It's supposed to be confusing. Just like reality was confusing for thousands of years, until we had enough puzzle pieces to really understand it.

raw grail
#

She metaphorically (and perhaps literally) consumed him, took and defiled his image, then pushed him out the other side. Destruction doesn't result in deletion, it results in change. It seems as if, since he was changed by Boethiah, his previous sphere and identity was altered some by Boethiah's sphere and identity. It became less knightly Trinimac, more vengeful Malacath

plain cosmos
raw grail
#

But interpretations differ a little, as happens in TES

plain cosmos
#

The Dwemer, The Psijics, even Vivec, all seem to operate under the principle that there IS a truth. Most just lack enough information to even begin to find it, and higher powers like the Gods actively obscure it for their own ends.

void kayak
#

So it's entirly possible none of the Gods are actually "good"

plain cosmos
#

Yes

#

Maybe, Reality ISN'T shaped by thought and emotion and faith in TES. The Gods and Spirits just want you to think so, to discourage real investigation into what they are.

void kayak
#

Still trying to figure out how to make an Orc Dragonborn work, who later unifies all of Tamriel under a new Empire like Tiber Septim once did.

raw grail
#

God I wanna dive down a rabbit hole but this feels like the wrong place and time foxwhoops

raw grail
void kayak
#

Like, is the Dragonborn actually blessed by Akatosh?

raw grail
#

There are some disputes over that in a way, but I think Oblivion's end kind of solidified it

#

Especially given Kurt and MK's expansions on it out of the game

void kayak
#

Idk who those people are

raw grail
#

Kurt is a long-time writer and was the co-lead for Skyrim. MK used to be a writer at Bethesda, but left a while ago, and is still occasionally brought on for writing as recently as ESO (although it's been a while now)

void kayak
#

So why would Akatosh bless an Orc with a dragon's soul?

plain cosmos
#

Why not?

raw grail
#

I always thought it was weird to assume he wouldn't, I guess?

#

Yeah exactly. They're mortal like everyone else

plain cosmos
#

Also, 5000 years is a lot of time for it to jump family trees through illigitimate children

void kayak
raw grail
#

There have been a lot of Dragonborn lines

#

It's possible we got it genetically, regardless of race

void kayak
raw grail
#

Hmmm

#

Well, being Dragonborn doesn't seem to send your soul to any specific afterlife

#

So tbh, I can't imagine Malacath would care much unless he's being petty about it

#

Idk what it'd mean for the particular Orc. That's very individual

#

Perhaps they see it as a curse, or a fate to defy like Miraak tried, or an obligation to live up to KS_AniShrug

void kayak
#

Cause I do realize that Orcs regognize that the other God's exist. They just follow Malacath, like they followed Trinimac before he was cursed.

#

Though Orc's (I think) don't seem to have the bigotry and resentmen towards men like Trinimac once did

plain cosmos
# void kayak Huh?

As Googliarch says, there is a not insignificant amount of information suggesting being Dragonborn is hereditary.

Given that the earliest known example of a Dragonborn is Miraak, who lived in the late Merethic, and assuming he is the singular point of origin, that would leave approximately 5000 years of general admixture for the Dragonblood to get entangled with every other race.

#

Plenty of time.

glacial scarab
# void kayak I guess more what I try to consider is, what does it mean for the Orc himself? I...

I wouldn't say being Dragonborn is being a Akatosh's champion. No one knows what the Aedra plan and nearly every Dragonborn is left to figure stuff out for themselves as I think only Alessia was supposedly speaking to Akatosh at least from what I can remember and what has been recorded.

Like for all we know the situation from that person being Dragonborn will cause something that will do whatever Akatosh planned.

shell basin
# void kayak Though Orc's (I think) don't seem to have the bigotry and resentmen towards men ...

Not for Trinimac's reasons, at least... Orcs just hate the fact that every few hundred years the Bretons and Redguards, and sometimes the Nords or Reachmen, team up to raze whatever is their latest version of Orsinium. Whichever part of Wrothgar they've built it in, their neighbours are all the human provinces (High Rock, Skyrim in particular, sometimes Hammerfell or Cyrodiil depending on who owns which parts of Bangkorai or The Reach at the time, and The Reach itself whenever it's independent...)

Conveniently ignoring the fact that the Orcs have usually done a great deal to provoke this by aggressive raiding and military expansionism...

plain cosmos
#

Eeeeh, that's a Chicken and Egg sort of argument at this point.

#

The earliest known conflict between Orcs and Men has the Men as the invading aggressors, and both Bretons and Redguard have a long history of attacking and trying to displace the Orsimer. Who by most accounts, seem to have been there first.

#

If course, the INITIAL cause thousands of years ago doesn't really matter regarding the current situation.

#

Both sides suck, and both sides generally prey on the other.

robust lintel
glacial scarab
unkempt tide
#

Keep it appropriate please chat, the server is open to anyone 13+ tired

neon karma
#

Cmon chat

oblique pine
#

So, do we have an official solution to the whole event with the disappearance of Masser and Secunda? With the Thalmor claiming they were the ones that brought the two moons back and gaining the trust of Elsweyr, and when that province was their main interest at the time, it just seems way too convenient. Was it just coincidence, or did the Thalmor perhaps do something?
If I remember correctly, there isn't an official truth as of right now, but I might be remembering incorrectly.

pliant reef
#

someone sum up elder scrolls lore in a small paragraph please

uncut hatch
oblique pine
#

You need like a page, minimum lol

uncut hatch
#

At least lol

pastel sorrel
pastel sorrel
dapper river
#

Ah, Lorkhan; bless his heart.

sly cairn
#

is sword singing stronger or weaker than thuum? why is it so rare lmao

plain cosmos
#

Both tend to be incredibly rare, because they are far more difficult to learn than conventional magic.

#

Strength wise, though, I'd say they're pretty even at the extreme upper end. The Thu'um supposedly can break off landmasses, and multiple Pankratosword sunk a continent.

sly cairn
#

understood. thanks for the answer

native ether
#

Quick question, what is the relationship between all the deadric princes, like are they friends, enemies, or smt.

pastel sorrel
upper field
#

Pretty sure Boethia and Molag Bal also have a bitter rivalry given the latter's quest.

plain cosmos
#

Yes. Though the lasting rivalries typically revolve around differing spheres.

#

Boethiah is all about self actualization and never bowing to authority. Molag is all about absolute adherence to authority and knowing your place.

#

The two are diametrically opposed. And if they're ever working together against something, you know it must be a big deal.

robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

That is far more applicable than it should be...

plush sky
#

Question

Do all Khajit go to the sands beyond the stars, even murderers?

plain cosmos
#

As a general rule in TES, your afterlife is determined more based on your personal beliefs and convictions, rather than any hard and fast rules.

#

So if they believe they will, they probably will. Now, how others react to them there is another matter entirely..

plush sky
#

Ah thx bro

#

I’m tryna do a Khajit thief character but I don’t like RPing characters that r gonna go to hell or smth so that’s good to know

robust lintel
#

Probably like one giant litter box, don't step on the lumps in the sand!

plush sky
turbid dew
#

Ave, true to Septim.

native ether
plain cosmos
#

Maybe. If you ask HIM anyway. But he may also be kinda paranoid and only think they did that.

robust lintel
#

No purpose to order without chaos right? Sometimes you create work for yourself 😆

plain cosmos
#

Mmhmm

plucky mortar
#

Right slightly confused been watching some fudgemuppet lore videos and he says the suthray raht is the most common khajit this might be stupid but isnt there a different phase of moon each night how would there be more of a certain breed 🤔 also sorry if this is stupid just curious

sharp lantern
#

Never heard of which breed of Khajiit is the most common, but if there is one that is more common than others, there are various different possibilities, like magical affinity, lack of exposure to combat, or at its simplest that there is a larger number of Khajiit who tend to be born under the same phase of the moon.

I will admit that the last one seems quite unlikely, unless if the Suthay-Raht have traits that are desirable in Khajiiti culture, in which case it may make sense for the parents to try and calculate when their child would be born so they could attempt to have them be born a Suthay-Raht.

proven moss
#

I'm kinda sure that we have a statement somewhere that Khajiit will use birth control to try to determine the form of their children (choosing the time of conception for example), so that could explain an unequal distribution.

#

That Suthay-Raht are the most common is just an explanation for the in-game limitation of depicting all the forms. I have definitely seen this claim before: I just can't remember if it's from a lore source, a dev comment, or a community theory that's been widely accepted.

plucky mortar
#

Oooh I see ^^^ thanks for answering my question

sharp lantern
#

I found this, though it only applies to Vvardenfell:
'"We are from the deserts and forests of Elsweyr. There are many Khajiit, but only the small, agile Suthay-raht are common here in Vvardenfell. When people think of Khajiit, they think of thieves. Perhaps it is hard for us to understand "property." -Jobasha

@proven moss @plucky mortar

#

Whether or not they're also the most common in general is a different question of itself, but I know too little of Khajiiti sources to delve deeper into that.

proven moss
#

Good find

native ether
#

I have a question about elves that probably has a complicated answer but whatever.

When elves were first 'created' was there only one type of elf and each variation of elf are evolved descendants of those original elves, and by evolved I mean they adapted to the regions they live. For example Dunmer became fire resistant and gray for living in Morrowind and the Snow Elves became white because they lived in Skyrim.

Btw This whole question came from me over thinking a simple loading screen quote from Skyrim, the one that's a quote from Vivec saying something about how the Dwemer are the Dark Elves brethren that despised the gods the Dunmer worshipped and that the Dwemer preferred their gods of logic and reasoning. That quote then made me think that the Dwemer were a variation of Dunmer that decided to go underground which then made me think about all the elves.

#

One other side note completely unrelated to that question is why are Orcs considered a Beast race and not an Elven race?

plain cosmos
#

Elves weren't really created. Rather, they are descended from a particular group of Spirits who participated in the creation of Mundus.

And yes, it does seem like, at one point, there was only one Type. And all current ethnicities are descended from them.

plucky mortar
#

Wasn’t the wood elves something to do with the khajit gods or something probs not right but could of sworn I’ve heard something

plain cosmos
#

The Wood Elf/Khajiiti creation myth, basically, says that the original 'spirits' of that region were divided into two groups. Those that Yffre gave their forms to, and those that Azura gave their forms to. Yffre gave his group one form, while Azura gave her group multiple.

#

While Bosmer myth indicates this was before 'elf' was even really a concept, Khajiiti indicates that they were indeed a People and not just formless spirits, while Altmeri myth seems to indicate that the Bosmer came after the Aldmer.

#

So in all likelihood, Aldmer is simply synonymous with these early, undifferentiated spirits.

plain cosmos
#

It's ultimately difficult to really break it down in that way though, because you're dealing with the Dawn. And during the Dawn, things aren't really defined by explicit timelines, but rather sequences of events. Some of which can actually occur simultaneously

native ether
sharp lantern
#

Like all cultures of Tamriel, not one is a perfect copy of another.

But Hammerfell definitely has Arabic and north-African influences.

plain cosmos
#

Arabic, north African, Japanese, and Carribean, mostly.

topaz depot
#

And Skyrim is similar to Nordic culture such as the Vikings

plain cosmos
#

It's... well, it's really more similar to pop culture depictions of Vikings, rather than anything approaching actual Saxon, Nordic or Danish culture.

glacial scarab
#

Skyrim if I recall is a mix of Norse and Ancient Egyptian. The Egyptian part was the Nordic buriel tombs and temples if my memory is working

coarse skiff
#

Hey guys
A discussion on a poem in TES 2 : Daggerfall

This was a poem written by Nulfaga - Mad Witch of the Wrothgarian Mountains about who can use the Totem of Tiber Septim

"Only crowned heads will hold the totem true
First is one who killed, but did not kill another
Second is one who Is two devoured by its young
Third is one who made one slave and many free
Fourth and Fifth are two who compete for mud
Sixth is one who brings a home to the homeless
Seventh is one who lords all, but does not lord at all"

Now who are these seven people?
My assumptions (could be totally wrong!)
Seventh - is talking about Emperor Uriel Septim VII
Fourth and Fifth - are the The kings and queens of Sentinel, Wayrest, and Daggerfall who want to destroy each other and thus the mud reference?
Third - The Warlord Gortwog gro-Nagorm wished to recreate the Orcish homeland of Orsinium
I have no clue about the others.

Can anyone take a stab at it?

sharp lantern
#

I would guess sixth is Gortwog - as Gortwog created Orsinium for the Orcs (a home to the homeless
I agree that the seventh would be about the Blades/Uriel Septim VII.

plain cosmos
#

Interestingly... second actually lines up with the supposed Enatiomorphic joining of Wolfharth and Zurin...

#

Two made one, killed by the king they taught.

#

So, if I had to guess...

Mannimarco
The Underking
Dunno... my first thought would be Woodborne, but he isn't an option
The Breton Nobility
Gortwog
Uriel

#

Though given that there are 7 main factions in Daggerfall... probably something more like...

Akorithi
Eadwyre
Gothryd
Mannimarco
Underking
Gortwog
Uriel

#

Since Alkorithi had the previous crown prince murdered. Eadwyre rules jointly with Barenziah while their children conspire against them. And Gothryd's contributions to conspiracy enslaved his father's ghost and allowed for the war of the bretony.

safe seal
#

Khajiits

#

Hands down

#

The best characters ever

#

Very hyped to see them in 6

plucky mortar
#

I wonder how each race will look in es6 interested to see how much the style has changed I’m hoping they will add horns maybe to bosmer that would be cool and I wonder how the Argonians will look this time around

brazen void
#

The khajiits are cool, I’d love to see kid khajiits running around too 😭 imagine them just swiping your stuff

plucky mortar
#

That would be cool love to see Argonian children too !

plain cosmos
#

All Khajiit are Lion Khajiit. They simply shave their manes out of respect for the Mane.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

It's never really specified in that regard, though it has been inferred by the community based on the species of feline they are modeled after.

#

The only actual source we have on it is that all Khajiit shave their manes. Though that predates the clearer refinement of the Furstocks.

uncut hatch
proven moss
plain cosmos
#

Argonians are trickier, though for Khajiit those changes were worked in via the Furstocks.

#

Though it is a general problem. TES still, after almost 30 years, lacks a defined aesthetic. Elves are a far better example of this problem than Beastfolk (whose variability is somewhat explain).

#

Elves have ranged from almost Goblinoid, to just pointy eared humans, to Romulans.

uncut hatch
#

The ones in Skyrim look more like demented vampires to me.

plain cosmos
#

AKA Romulans 😛

proven moss
#

I'm just saying clasifying khajiit by "phenotypes" will quickly fall apart if in TES:O 2 when Alfiqs are redesigned to look like Pallas's cat or Suthay are more heavily inspired by panthers.

#

Best just to stick with the lunar forms as classification methinks

lucid briar
#

Just gonna leave this random jumble of text here:

Kynareth - Hircine, Peryite
Dibella - Vaermina, Namira
Julianos - Hermaeus Mora, Sheogorath
Stendarr - Clauvicus Vile, Sanguine
Arkay - Meridia, Azura
Akatosh - Molag Bal, Boethiah
Zenithar - Nocturnal, Malacath
Mara - Mephala, Mehrunes Dagon

Sithis, Lorkhan - Talos

🐱

plain cosmos
gaunt bear
brisk perch
floral light
#

Anyone else kind of assuming Ogres are snow elves who either malacath got the same effect as orcs when he went Dardra or ones who went to him to escape the atmoran's genocide and were transformed to both strengthen and hide them?

split pond
gaunt bear
lucid briar
#

Maybe next Dragon Break.

pastel sorrel
#

also Ithelia

sweet plume
#

The Prince of Paths

plain cosmos
#

We don't talk about her.

#

Because Herma squiggly tentacled the universe to make us forget.

plain cosmos
#

No one wants to admit that Castles proves Khajiit and Argonians can reproduce with Men and Mer... but who wants to place bets that everyone will use it as proof that Tiber Septim is a Nord.

gaunt bear
glacial scarab
glad belfry
#

Question from playing as a Dunmer in Dawnguard. What do the Dunmer make of Akatosh/Auriel? I know varieties of faith refers to Almalexia as seemingly having taken the traits of Akatosh - but not sure how that would figure post Tribunal.

floral light
#

To the best of my knowledge dunmer opinions on the aeadra amount to them being stodgey do nothings, gods who ignore prayers, basically take Vivek's opinions and apply it only to the aeadra,

pastel sorrel
#

They're recognized for making the Mundus and such, and Lorkhan in particular is honored for his role in teaching the Psijic Endeavour that the Good Daedra then continued with, but in general they're relics of the past to the Dunmer.

#

in Aldmeris, "daedra" means "not our ancestors". But in Dunmeris, it's "our newer, better ancestors".

glad belfry
#

So from that, I suppose a Redoran Dragonborn would view their status as actually a gift from the Reclamations, especially when Azura names them as her Champion. Or have an Akatosh/Auriel specific religious awakening after viewing them with mistrust and/or lesser piety as an ancestor. (given Redoran advises piety to the aedra and daedra in TESIII)

uncut hatch
#

I wonder in elder scrolls 6 will dwarfs make a return

plain cosmos
#

I doubt it. It's one of the 'No go zones' for writing, if the rumours are true.

glacial scarab
#

The most i'd imagine is Yagrum from TES3

lucid briar
pastel sorrel
#

the Dunmer know about the aedra and TES5 already establishes the Akatosh connection, that's all separate to the actual Dunmeri theology.

lucid briar
#

Eh, the Amulet of Kings was more of a compromise / diplomatic pact.

glacial scarab
glad belfry
#

But in terms of roleplaying a faithful Dunmer, Boethiah in Skyrim does directly claim superiority to Aedra.

plain cosmos
#

Well, they're dead and she isn't. So he is superior.

plucky wadi
#

all hale me

plain cosmos
#

#callNerevar

fathom jewel
#

Any guesses how many years we're gonna wait for ES6? Oh, wait - this is the lore channel. OK. Someone please explain exactly what sword singing is. You whistle a tune and a big magic sword appears? Can't be that lame. Just CAN'T be.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

You form a magical blade from your own soul, that you use to alter the tones of reality (in a similar way to the Thu'um and Dwemer Tonal Engineering) to elicit particular effects.

shell basin
#

What if you want a mace or an axe instead?

plain cosmos
#

Would probably work, but the culture which developed the technique heavily emphasised swords, so that's how they tended to manifest.

lucid briar
gaunt bear
arctic elk
#

What race invented Cheese

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

Giants

arctic elk
plain cosmos
#

We don't actually know for sure, but Giants have Cheese, and have been socially isolated from the rest of the races for at least 4000 years. So the genesis of Cheese has to have come before that, and since they have it and don't really have much else, it's likely that they were the originators of it.

proven moss
# plain cosmos Giants

I saw this question earlier and was going to say the same thing, since they make mammoth cheese in Skyrim.

west palm
fathom jewel
raw grail
# fathom jewel OK, so it's an animated Thu'um. Hmm.

they're very similar magics, alongside Bosmeri "Spinning" and Dwemeri "Tonal Architecture" and perhaps even the Akaviri "Kiai". i call them, collectively, "sound magic." "tonal magic" works too, but i don't like it as much personally cuz it's so similar to "tonal architecture" and has occasionally led to confusion

plain cosmos
#

It seems to be referred to as Tonal Architecture in-universe, so I generally ere on they.

#

Hell, Mythopoeia in universe doesn't mean what it does in actual academia, but we use it that way anyway.

raw grail
#

and it's difficult to tell from context whether it's referring to the Dwemeri practice or sound magic in general

#

(obviously that doesn't mean you have to stop using it, you can do whatever you want and idc that much anyways)

#

(that'd be dumb)

#

i, personally, avoid using it to avoid confusion, tho

#

like, i don't particularly like "Lorkhan" as a catch-all for the God of Space, because it carries a lot of elven baggage, but i use it anyways because it takes a lot more work for very little pay off to use "LKHAN" and explain why i use LKHAN. instead i just go with Lorkhan and people know what i mean anyways KS_AniShrug

#

sound magic doesn't need that tho so foxxovibbo i get to just say the thing that makes my brain happy

plain cosmos
#

I see where you're coming from, though I'm on the opposite side of it.

#

Tonal Architecture, Tonal Engineering, whatever version of the Dwemeri term you use, is simply the same linguistically as the English word Chemistry. It's a specific term for a field which has entered general usage as referring to the entire field, even if derived from a particular cultural application.

raw grail
#

that's fair

plain cosmos
#

At the end of the day, words are just, like, made up maaaan

raw grail
#

They're also meant to convey meaning, hopefully effectively and efficiently

plain cosmos
#

Which, even in academia, is much easier said than done.

raw grail
#

I've had mix ups when using tonal architecture

raw grail
plain cosmos
#

I've had mix-ups using words like Egalitarian, and Utopian.

raw grail
#

To me, calling all tonal magic tonal architecture feels like calling squares and rectangles both squares

#

Even tho it developed naturally as such. I understand why and how it developed like that, and I have no real issue with other people using it

#

But I also don't like having to explain which I mean, so I just sidestep it

raw grail
#

I can understand defaulting to the cultural norm, but for me, in this specific case, that just provides less value and more effort in most conversations

Except for conversations where I'm actually explaining why I do it

#

Those usually go about like this xD

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Really, half of academia is just explaining what you mean 😛

raw grail
#

Truuue

lucid briar
plain cosmos
gaunt bear
#

I’m going to ask this lore-based question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls notes:

How would certain people/organizations, such as the Thalmor and the people of the College of Winterhold, react to the magic of the Anchor (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor|| )? I already have that Herma Mora, due to the events at Redcliffe (||the inquisitor “muddled the waters of time and altered its flow||), is keeping a close eye on both the Inquisition and the Anchor.

coarse skiff
#

Skyrim, ESO, and Daggerfall have all let us explore planes in Aetherius.
I read this statement in a forum.

We go to Aetherius to get the mantis in Daggerfall and in Skyrim we go to Sovngard to take care of Alduin.
Anyone knows in which chapter of ESO, we get to experience Aetherius?

robust lintel
#

✈

pastel sorrel
coarse skiff
pastel sorrel
plain cosmos
#

Assuming, of course, Sovengarde is in Aetherius.

#

Which... Kinda defeats the whole purpose.

#

Lets Kill Lorkhan confining him to... The very place we're all going to run to after abandoning this world, and not at all restricting his ability to do his thing..

gaunt bear
#

I call that… a mess.

plain cosmos
#

No, that's just Mythology.

#

No myths really make a lot of sense, when you dig into them even a little.

#

But, I'm also not a fan of the direct confirmation that Afterlives are a real thing in TES.

#

Or, you know... Afterlives in general. But that's a whooole other thing...

sweet plume
#

Afterlives rule, To The Sands Behind The Stars I go!

pastel sorrel
#

leave it to the Space God to still function even when strewn about his space.

plucky mortar
#

Learning all Argonian lore and love it on eso. what’s everyone’s favourite race based on lore ?

raw grail
#

Argonian, funnily enough, is mine

#

That said, I wish they'd get more diverse cultural influences

#

They're like the only race that seems to only have one irl culture that it's drawing influence from, and it is the most basic lizard-man culture ever. I think taking influence from the Aztec and Mayan is cool and fine, I just wish it was "Native American cultures and..." instead

#

Provided, it's not a direct rip. Like the time thing!

plain cosmos
#

Dunmer. For no other reason that they are the most realised group in Tamriel..

sweet plume
#

Khajiit, because they got plenty of shine as it is in Chapter 3 and have Central Elsweyr left to cover more on them.

sweet plume
#

Not because they don’t like the Dunmer but they feel the Dunmer need chaps the least with how developed they are among other things

#

Now that I think about it the Human Races tend to be the least developed ones, Minus Redguards which I think is the more developed Human Race on Tamriel.

plucky mortar
#

After playing so much eso and learning about Argonian lore what confuses me is if different breeds of Argonian can intermingle like sarpa and saxheel like I would say no but then again they all are Argonians

#

Like if they had a baby would it be mixed or would it be whatever Argonian based on what hist tree it was born at

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
#

I think it would depend on whether they are nurtured in a Hist Pool, or not.

plain cosmos
#

As such, I expect the various magical groups would view it just the same

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
plucky mortar
#

Makes sense. Do hope in future eso they can go in to detail more about the subraces of Argonian and hists influence on them

#

Not even sure how many sub races of argonians there are

plain cosmos
#

More phenotypes would always be a plus, but Imma be real... They should just drop Race altogether.

#

Either accept that you have to go full Species, or use Phenotype.

plucky mortar
#

I do wish they would be simple just one type of Argonian and one type of khajit but then that would be to simple lol

plain cosmos
#

You can have different types, visually, but functionally make them all the same.

#

It would mean not being able to play the significant outliers, but... Well... You can't play someone with cerebral palsy either.

plucky mortar
#

Ano this is Abit off topic but just finished shadowfen eso and I can’t believe some ate the agonian eggs and destroyed the eggs damn harsh

plain cosmos
#

Well, I mean... Real cannibalism has been pretty common historically. So eating other intelligent creatures shouldn't be that shocking.

#

Maybe I'm just a jaded Anthropologist though.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

They never are.

#

Took me 5 years to convince people Classes were bad, I don't expect this to be any easier.

plain cosmos
#

Then I'll hit the Armour Types again...

plucky mortar
#

?

glacial scarab
floral light
#

Classes have value people want to define the character, so getting some points in some skills and some starting gear can help with that, especially if we get rid of racial skill bonuses,

topaz dome
pastel sorrel
plucky mortar
plain cosmos
#

How come dog breeds look a certain way? Because we bred them to look like that, and control their breeding to keep them like that.

#

The Hist are, at their core, a hivemind of tree-like creatures who genetically engineered multiple variations of Argonians for different purposes and environments. Their creations are, at best; beloved pets, at worst; sycophantic slaves, who are ultimately entirely beholden to their Hist Masters.

#

Hell, being born away from the Hist apparently makes an Argonian autistic, so the Argonians are literally dependent on them.

bold tree
#

Yeah I don't know about the autistic part, that sounds like a major leap and maybe a comparison used too flippantly, especially considering there's a huge difference between the effects of a genetic anomaly and the effects of being born outside your species/culture, which is exactly what happened to Ja-Reet.

#

Did research, and I stand corrected. He really was designed to be autistic, and as with any other ableist venture, the quest is about "curing" him.

Yeah well done, ZeniMax. /s

plain cosmos
#

Oh yeah, it's... It's really not a good quest. It's designed to be inclusive and representative, but ultimately boils down to "He's different because his parents didn't love him properly".

It's like... Guys, it's not the 1960s.

#

I prefer to ignore the official explanation and view it in the context of trauma and the lasting consequences of having been subjected to slavery.

plain cosmos
#

Though, i suppose it could also serve as a foundation to make the Hist more... Sinister. Injecting a element into the genome that, while not debilitating, causes enough neurological divergence to complicate large social cohesion outside their direct control. Thus preventing Argonians from straying too far from their intended roles.

A subtle sort of social control that keeps the Argonians subservient to the Hist, without requiring more direct subjugation

pastel sorrel
#

Bear in mind he's only autistic by Argonian standards. He functions fine with non-Argonians, it's other Argonians that he can't understand, not picking up on the different spine erections and such for instance just like most non-Argonians anyway.

#

And there's another Argonian in another DLC who was born outside of Black Marsh who's doing even better for himself without any Hist connection than this guy

#

And the point of the quest isn't so much to cure him, but to make a choice about curing him. You can elect not to and he'll go back to his life outside of Black Marsh.

#

Argonians are an engineered species with very tribal cultures. There's dynamics at play that I feel like are being missed by the conversation.

plain cosmos
#

"And yes, he's Argonian, but he's different. Distant. Haunted. Listens to words more than meaning. But he's my husband, and I love him."

#

So his difficulties are universal, not just related to being amongst Argonians.

The whole execution is absolutely terrible and ultimately incredibly insensitive. And far better viewed in through a lense entirely seperate from what it was intended to be.

bold tree
#

Yeah, it reminds me of that one Mass Effect DLC with the guy exploiting his brother. It's just like...come on, world.

plain cosmos
#

Ibquite like that one... Mostly because of the ability to punch the doctor in the face at the end..

hexed venture
#

Is skingrad count still alive during the events of Skyrim? He’s a vampire after all

topaz dome
robust lintel
#

I wouldn't say alive per say.. since he's a vampire. Maybe "essentially-undead?" 😅

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. He's a Vampire. That means he's already dead.

glacial scarab
quiet remnant
#

He keeps his vampirism a secret. I wouldn't count on Hasildor remaining Count of Skingrad 201 years after the Oblivion Crisis.

shell basin
#

I have a feeling it's kind of an "open secret" around Skingrad - a lot of people know but they don't tell outsiders.

quiet remnant
#

I get that feeling. I love the detail that his castle has minimal windows because he's a vampire.

sweet plume
#

New Lore

As the Endless Archive contains documents on significant events that were or could be, I presume its records may also contain information on legendary figures and artifacts. Assuming my theory is correct, and you can and do not mind sharing such details originating from the Endless Archive, can you tell me where the artifact Chrysamere may currently be, and anything (even if just theories or stories) that may shed light on its ambiguous origins?

—Dame Gratias of the Knights of Saint Eleidon

Certainly. Chrysamere. A two-handed blade, or claymore. Forged late in the Merethic era by a Breton swordsmith of some renown by the name of Asterie Bedel. She was an accomplished blacksmith, and she delighted in using the techniques of both men and mer in crafting her wares. Of this I am certain, for within the very heart of the blade itself lies her maker’s mark: a mage’s knot that harkens back to the earliest days of Bretonic culture.

Much of the journey from well-crafted but mortal blade to the “the Sword of Heroes” lies beyond the bounds of the Endless Archive. Certainly, it was influenced by the magic of Breton society’s Elven forebearers, gaining enchantments as it was passed from hand to hand. It fought in the wars to secure Clan Direnni’s role as lords of High Rock and was present at the first sacking of Orsinium. Its defensive enchantments were sharpened and retooled to protect its bearer in a protracted siege of the Fellthunder Clan of giants in Rivenspire. And it played a small but important role in the Battle of Glenumbra Moors.

#

Where the blade lies today, I’m sorry to say, is not something even close examination of archival records could produce. My best approximation, if you’re keen to go looking, is based on a series of letters penned between a Dark Elf researcher in Ebonheart and a Khajiit fence in the city of Alabaster. Perhaps one or both of those locales might contain a clue as to its current whereabouts.

Best move quickly, though. The blade does not sit idle in any one mortal’s hand for long.

plain cosmos
#

Well, that basically confirms that the Bretons aren't Nordic or Direnni stock.

#

In fact, it means their claim to Elven blood really is tenuous at best, even given its own prose... As the Merish influence in Highrock doesn't even show up until the early 1st Era. So it would predate the earliest known Elven presence in Highrock.

#

That said, it's interesting that it's enchantment has been cumulative. Which is something that's never really been explored in the setting before.

sweet plume
sweet plume
#

Meaning if you think about it, the Slightly Pointed Ears of Bretons only became more common after Clan Direnni’s interbreeding with the Bretons

brisk perch
#

I still think that Nedes were native to Tamriel, and the Druids of Galen were likely the ones that have lived in that area since the Dawn Era.

sweet plume
pastel sorrel
#

Or he's saying "Breton" anachronistically to refer to the humans living there at the time

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. There's a few possibilities that we don't REALLY have answers to. Though it does expand on their existence and craftsmanship more.

#

It's interesting that they gave it a new name, too. As Chrysamere was previously known as the Paladin's Blade. That would imply that it's name changes between ESO and Arena, and the association with some sort of Paladin group during that missing period..

#

The whole reinforcement of its Breton origin does bring back the lost Scottish elements in Breton identity though which I appreciate.

sweet plume
sweet plume
plain cosmos
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Previously, it was Chrysamere, Paladin's Blade.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

#

I wasn't fond of basically anything in the High Isles, but I do like this.

sweet plume
# plain cosmos Yeah.

This endless archive actually makes me curious as this seems like an addition that can add smaller additions of lore that can be impactful like Chrysamere’s True Origins

plain cosmos
#

It could basically be used as a Lore Archive to disseminate information on a lot of things.

sweet plume
#

Like any time you replay those games now you know it’s a Breton weapon when you obtain it

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. And it's a really good one, to boot..

#

The absence of oral records from the Archive is also interesting...

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Basically any sort of use of oral storytelling or narrative record keeping.

#

They are, in fact, the most common mechanism of record keeping, as less than 20% of known languages have actually developed a writing system. So all they history and information was kept through stories and retellings by word of mouth rather than actually being written down.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

It seems the Endless Archive only contains WRITTEN things. Meaning other sources of knowledge may be unknown to it.

#

Which kinda explains the Skaal thing in Dragonborn. Since the Skaal have an oral tradition.

sweet plume
glacial scarab
sweet plume
sweet plume
#

Could Highland Bretons possibly be a subsection of the Breton Populace that leans into the Scottish element?

@plain cosmos

#

Cause When I hear about The Highlands I think Scotland.

#

Maybe there is a connection there with The Reachmen and Highland Bretons.

plain cosmos
#

I think that may be the implication.

#

Personally, I'd rather Highrock be turned into a full microcosm of Medieval Europe, encompassing Swedish, Italian, French, English, Scotish and Spanish influences from that period.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

For the most part, yeah..

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Not really either. It's more... Just generic medieval fantasy.

#

The closest thing you get to culture in Daggerfall, is the buildings in Sentinel looking vaguely arabic..

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Not really. There was some spread of names, but it was really only with Redguard, and then Morrowind, that there were any solid cultural influences in anyone.

sweet plume
#

Highland Bretons have existed since what, Morrowind?

#

The Question is when do we get those Bretons? Now I want them.

sweet plume
#

They had Kilts IIRC?

#

Hmm… now that I think aboit it it’s not just Reachmen and Highland Bretons, but Druids of Galen are probably involved as well if it’s a Scottish thing.

lyric bronze
#

People often mistake reachmen for Bretons, is this because reachmen have elven heritage like the Bretons of high rock? Or are they full humans?
Do we know for certain the origins of the reachmen?

pastel sorrel
#

Reachmen are a mixed bunch, nominally Breton cousins but with heritage from everyone nearby.

lyric bronze
#

What was their origin? Like did they descend from nedes or are they just a general mix

glacial scarab
#

They're Nedes of another area if I recall

lyric bronze
#

Did they mingle with the snow elves to make a Breton-like people or are they basically just nedes

abstract ledge
sweet plume
#

I’m still happy we got Lore of Chrysamere’s True Origins.

abstract ledge
#

Direnni arrived in high rock in the middle merethic era, and chrysamere was made at the late merethic era

sweet plume
#

And the Fact they tied in the fact it’s a Claymore to Highland Bretons which I believe were first mentioned as far back as Morrowind.

sweet plume
abstract ledge
#

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Breton pretty detailed explanation on Bretons and their timeline. Though, the blacksmith would be a manmer technically, but they seem to call them bretons regardless, such as voernet

Lore:Breton

Bretons (from the Ehlnofex beratu meaning "half") are a hybrid race of both human and elven ancestry that primarily inhabit their ancestral homeland of High Rock, and the Systres Archipelago.[nb 1] High Rock is fractious and divided politically, which is seemingly encouraged by the layout of the land itself. Warfare between kingdoms accounts for...

abstract ledge
abstract ledge
#

According to her, we know that the Bretons were "Breton-y" by the time the druids set sail for the Systres around 1E 330. You have to figure, then, that the Direnni and the Nedic folk of the region were probably intermingling for centuries as the Merithic [sic] ended and the First Era began.

The most widely accepted theory as to the origin of the Bretons centers around the mingling of Nedes and Aldmer during the Merethic Era. When Clan Direnni came to High Rock, they found our Nedic ancestors, most notably a group called the Druids of Galen, who had rules [sic] the region through a line of Druid Kings.

#

But ya, the blacksmith is probably more accurately described as a manmer

abstract ledge
#

I love it because bretons invented claymores

sweet plume
#

Literally tying it to Obscure Lore

#

Highland Bretons which I hope we eventually see.

abstract ledge
#

Its such a great story. Its cemented deeply in high rock culture now. Sorta feels like excalibur

sweet plume
#

Maybe that’s the point

#

@plain cosmos Come here you, Breton W!

abstract ledge
#

High land bretons are probably those around kambria highlands, but eso sorta just like, sucks at base game high rock

sweet plume
#

Base Game ESO didn’t have the same Luxury DLC did to be more unique

sweet plume
earnest hill
#

anyone know any good orc lore?

robust lintel
#

M'aiq is like the ultimate lore master, knows even more than Mora

plain cosmos
#

I'll admit, as well, that my inherent bias against Race as a concept would tend to make my readings of sources highlight inconsistencies in the origin and expression of races, and thus confirm said bias.

#

So it's entirely probable that I miss some details.

arctic elk
#

Does the storm cloaks or imperials win the Civil War

plain cosmos
#

We don't know.

#

No canon ending has been indicated.

dapper river
#

The answer will probably be "yes" in the next game if it's addressed at all, just like how previous events were handled in Skyrim

arctic elk
#

Probably the imperials then

plain cosmos
#

I suspect the Imperials aren't going to be winning anything for a long time..

abstract ledge
#

The civil war will prob be vague

gaunt bear
pastel sorrel
#

unlikely

glacial scarab
#

People overuse Dragon Breaks for what they actually do.

#

Also defeating Alduin happened in Sovngarde not on Nirn.

pastel sorrel
#

Also, like, he's there to end and restart time, he doesn't handle the actual regular workings of it.

#

That's his dad's job.

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

On the flip side, gotta beat that 'Freedom!' Drum, even when it's counterproductive to... Well, anything.

#

I mean, look at where StarCraft and Assassin's Creed have gone.

sweet plume
#

Can you tell me more about the old Dawnguard?
"Only what I've heard. Back in the Second Era, the Jarl of Riften had a son. Adventurous type, too much for his own good it seems. Wound up turning into a vampire. The Jarl, unable to kill his own son, spent a fortune building this keep and hiring men to guard it. Their job was to keep the Jarl's son contained within. They took it seriously, and served honorably. They were eventually forced to put him down. The Jarl banished them from the hold, but they stuck to their cause. Fought vampires wherever they found them. I aim to continue that mission."

plain cosmos
#

Since it says Second Era, with no specific timetable... It's possible they don't even exist yet.

robust lintel
#

I know they used to be around before Skyrim. I'm just not sure how long ago in the past that was..

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

Possible they were active before the start of ESO or during?

sweet plume
#

The Dawnguard traces its origins in the early to mid Second Era.

plain cosmos
#

Fair enough. It's been awhile since I read the ability discription.

#

They may still be around then, or have been absorbed into the Fighters Guild.

#

Given what the Fighters Guild is, it would make sense that, after the death of their master and/or charge, they turned to mercenary work. And mercenary work is largely regulated through the Fighters Guild..

sweet plume
#

So technically if they did another Morrowind expansion, somewhere at the very West Edge of Morrowind could be Fort Dawnguard right at the border before the change of Tree’s and Snow get’s replaced with Mushrooms among other things.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

#

There's still room there to explore the idea.

sweet plume
#

Missed opportunity to have them be part of Greymoore now that I think about it

#

But doing that probably would be retreading to much nostalgia

plain cosmos
#

Greymoore was... A little cluttered as it was.

sweet plume
#

I know we got Dragon’s, imagine doing that in Skyrim again, now that would be to easy. XD

#

Intentional Nostalgia at the most to it’s limits would have to be Chapter 5 with Blackwood and Mehrunes Dagon, because he was the Big Bad in Oblivion

#

But Vvardenfell was also chockful of nostalgia, but it didn’t necessarily lean into Dagoth Ur and instead a different plot

plain cosmos
#

Hah... Maybe I'm too old, but it's weird to think about Skyrim Nostalgia...

sweet plume
#

I mean one of the Gameplay Trailers was literally showing a skeleton with an arrow in the Knee lol

plain cosmos
#

Yeah... It's definitely being old..

#

I just struggle to associate Nostalgia with anything after 2005

#

Like, Mass Effect isn't nostalgic for me. It's damned good, but... It feels like a modern release in my head.

#

Despite being almost old enough to Vote.

sweet plume
#

So we had Vampire’s and Werewolves, Dragon’s, Druids, various amount of Daedric Princes, I don’t know what else could be a villain besides another Daedric Prince honestly.

#

Unless there’s some other villainous type of thing I’m forgetting

plain cosmos
#

Akaviri

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Though that's... Iffy ground to tred.

sweet plume
#

I mean maybe but considering the current way Bethesda and by extension ZOS have avoided making them a key figure in terms of being in a major role I doubt it

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. They have been nothing but antagonistic ... Buuut, portraying an entire ethnic group, one which you've made very clear at this point are basically just East Asian Humans, as villains is...

#

So best to just avoid that entirely.

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

If they were to bring the Dawnguard in ESO, I'd want to see another side of them unlike their counterparts in Skyrim. A darker past Dawnguard..

plain cosmos
#

Vampires are monsters no negotiation. Burn them any anyone that works with them.

#

There's an idea on how to explain their absence and decline... Make them the villains.

robust lintel
sweet plume
#

They would have to explain how the Dawnguard ultimately disbanded yes

#

Interregnum where a lot of information was lost, among them being how the Dawnguard disbanded

plain cosmos
#

Take a page out of Legacy of Kain's book, and go full Sarafan.

robust lintel
#

Maybe they were even hypocrits, picking up locals to feed the vampire son in secret.

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

Did they ever explain how they got their wolf powers in skyrim?

#

Cause if not, that could be explained too

plain cosmos
#

'Here at last, in the flesh, I beheld my former brothers-in-arms – the warrior-priests of the Sarafan order, their lives devoted solely to the annihilation of the "vampire plague".
And while I confess I felt a twinge of longing, a pang of grief for what I had believed was my lost virtue, I regarded them now with none of the reverence I formerly felt.
For I had seen the human face of the vampires - and now I beheld the monstrousness of these men'

#

God... Why does every line in Legacy of Kain drip such amazing Gothic magesty...

robust lintel
#

That's deep

sweet plume
#

Wait is it bad that the Akaviri are East Asian Like or that they are East Asian being potrayed as villains?

plain cosmos
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Games don't hold up. But the story is still one of the best in all of gaming.

sweet plume
#

Besides supposedly being Snek People? 🐍

plain cosmos
#

Weave cultures and tropes into new tapestries, rather than just adopting them wholesale..

sweet plume
#

Ooooooh, I getcha, well we don’t know the whole gist of there people besides the current armor and weapons they used. So who knows what else they may have back home that isn’t like we’ve seen

plain cosmos
#

Like, I keep falling back on the Dunmer, but... They have Japanese, Mongolian, Assyrian, Gnostic, and a few other influences in them

sweet plume
#

Orcs are more Mongolian from what I remember

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, but so were the Ashlanders.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Community and social structure was very pre-Genghis Mongolian.

sweet plume
#

While Orcs are more Genghis Mongolian

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. And pushing somewhat Chinese and Shogunate Japanese k some ways.

#

Especially in their earlier armours.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I have a whole concept on Orcish craftsmanship and Orsinium too...

sweet plume
#

Didn’t Nords have Kilts once?

#

Daggerfall times?

plain cosmos
#

Not explicitly, though they did use plaid and woad.

#

They've always kind been drunks losing their pants

#

And blaming witches.

sweet plume
#

Nords have Scandinavian and Egyptian Influences, but the Egyptian part goes towards there Burying Practices.

plain cosmos
#

And is more of an extinxt or dying aspect to their culture, yeah.

sweet plume
#

Khajiit’s have Romanian, Indian, Egyptian, as far as I can recall correctly

plain cosmos
#

I wish they had leaned more into the Egyptian-Nkds thing myself.

#

I come from an Anthropology background though, so these cultural expressions are the best part for me.

sweet plume
#

Dunmer have the most Varied in terms of Influences, I think Second would be Redguards, right behind them would be Khajiit’s and Argonian’s.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah. And that's really why I put Dunmer as the standard.

sweet plume
#

I suppose, I just am fine with Two Influences at best and even 3 to make up a culture.

plain cosmos
#

I'd put it at 3 as a minimum... But a part of that is definitely because I enjoy weaving those tapestries.

sweet plume
#

Altmer are Greek I believe

sweet plume
arctic elk
#

What was the content that attacked skyrim

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
arctic elk
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Well, maybe. We don't actually know what the Kamal are.

sweet plume
#

Just going off of what the sources say

plain cosmos
#

Which seems absurd on the face of it, as there are literally living veterans of the invasion IN ESO.

#

And yet they still keep dodging the question.

sweet plume
#

They tease the fanbase so hard that it hurts

plain cosmos
#

It's handled in such a way that it's almost like someone higher up has told them no

#

Like, showing the Akaviri is a hard limit they're not allowed to cross.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Which is infuriating. And could be because of any of a few reasons, none of which I will speculate here.

sweet plume
#

Oh maybe not permanent, but it’s definitely not something that’s seen as necessary to bother with because they rather not commit to hard I suppose when they could get the chance to do it themselves.

sweet plume
#

So if they did something as Obscure as The Druids of Galen, what will they do with Highland Bretons?

plain cosmos
#

Probably William Wallace.

sweet plume
arctic elk
#

Why did the nords leave atmora?

sweet plume
#

Atmora

plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Just in terms of simple things... Woad had fallen out of use amongst the Scots centuries earlier, and Kilts wouldn't become common until centuries later.

plain cosmos
#

Ultimately though, Atmora started to experience climate shifts that resulted in it becoming an arctic waste

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah. The last known ship FROM Atmora was I 1e68, and most of their occupants had either starved, or frozen.

sweet plume
#

Makes me wonder about the Sea Giants honestly since they were introduced in Greymoore

plain cosmos
#

Probably, like the sload, simply native to regional waters.

sweet plume
#

They can speak English

#

So can the sload of course but I think what I mean is there is definitely something worth exploring there

#

Sea Giants and there History.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

Ah yes, Tamrielic, totally not English. XD

plain cosmos
#

Like most fictional languages, it's technically a stand in.

sweet plume
#

Breton’s with Kilts does sound rather cool

plain cosmos
#

Indeed.

#

But, as I've said before, I think the Bretons could use with a lot more love, and a lot more influences.

#

Turn them into a Microcosm of all of Europe, rather than just Franks.

sweet plume
#

Again if ZOS hasn’t forgotten Highland Bretons and tied Chrysamere’s creation back to them, that gives me hope

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Celtic and Scotish Highlanders, French Daggerfallians, Italian Wayrestians, Slavic Evermore, British and Welsh Shornhelm...

sweet plume
#

But we will probably get the Highland Bretons so that’s still good.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. I think ESO was hamstrung a lot by their zone design, and the decision (probably higher up) to do 'All of Tamriel'.

#

Still, they've done great with what they've hadm mostly..

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

It's like a generalized Tamriel though, so it's not so bad. I think for the purpose of being a mmorpg in the tes setting.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
robust lintel
#

It's like a quilt of many patches lol.

#

Cause the parts it does focus on does have some detail, it's just as you said the entirety broad.

sweet plume
#

It’s the same thing with Eastern Skyrim not resembling Western Skyrim, it’s due to Skyrim being in development around the time ESO was and ESO was focusing on a grander scale so many more things had to be taken into account and thus less detail at the time and more reuse of certain things.

robust lintel
#

Think there will ever be an eso2 or where/when it would take place (and theoretically how the where/when could come to be formed)? Past again, present, or a future that could have been, like an unused elder scroll?

plain cosmos
#

Second Great War.

sweet plume
#

ESO2 wouldn’t happen anyway with how Popular ESO is and the amount of Money it makes

plain cosmos
#

Since I expect them to just skip over that and move along, since everyone wants the Thalmor gone. Pull a Halo Infinite...

robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

Sooo... Tomorrow?

robust lintel
#

XD

#

I'd like to eventually see the Thalmor reach success, but at the last moment turn on itself and bite, destroying themselves over the very thing they sought.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Toppled from infighting. Struck down by greater powers. Reformed from within. Beaten back by the Empire...

sweet plume
#

We already experienced it with 1 through 4, 5 showing the Empire is a shell, so VI could be the Thalmor are finally in charge

plain cosmos
#

But, I LIKE the Empire, so... Mostly because of the Roman style. Best looking army in human history.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

#

I think putting the Empire on the back burner (or foot) for awhile could be good to give others the room they need to grow and be defined though.

robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

Let the Empire slip into a proper Roman succession crisis after Skyrim, so they aren't a major player for the next game.

#

That would give room to have the Dominon take centre stage as the Imperialist Antagonist in Hammerfell.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

That was just Tamriel though. I think he's talking including Yokuda and Akavir in the rumble.

sweet plume
#

Aaaaah, well I don’t know about World War honestly.

sweet plume
#

The place where the Night of Green Fire happened

#

I mean Hammerfell definitely makes the most sense at this point.

robust lintel
robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

I think Hammerfell also offers some of the most interesting.... Narrative and thematic options.

#

Dune-like themes of the dangers of Heroes, explorations of dogmatic Traditionalism vs Progress, the best basis for a Siege of Vienna style battle...

sweet plume
#

The Ash’abah

#

Please have them included in there own faction side quest.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

#

You know the Dominon wouldn't be shy about using Undead afterall.

robust lintel
#

Do they have genie's in TES?

plain cosmos
#

Mentioned, though not explored that I am aware of.

robust lintel
#

Djinn 'N Tonic 🤣

sweet plume
#

But War shows peoples true colors

arctic elk
#

Don't nords use blue war paint to symbol frost giant blood

sweet plume
dapper river
#

I wouldn't say so because the Companions are mercenaries--they try to uphold an honorable reputation, but they still do what they do for the paycheck.

sweet plume
dapper river
#

ESO has its own server

sweet plume
#

As long as we are talking specifically things regarding the lore and such it’s allowed to be talked about in here.

ebon shore
#

What do you consider "more canon" the things we physicslly see in ESO or statements in mainline games, like summerset isles for example?