elder-scrolls-lore

[plain cosmos]

Though I'd argue that Sovengarde is pretty hellish... An eternity of drunken violence doesn't sound like a pleasant time to me.

[sweet plume]

Unless your a Nord

[quasi shale]

I'll happily go to the Shivering Isles. Sounds like I'd have something new to do everyday. Lol

[scenic kite]

What happens to mortals that pass away naturally in Sheo's realm, anyway?

[upper field]

Well we know death by suicide curses them to an eternity on suicide hill.

[sweet plume]

Currently Playing The Elder Scrolls Online’s Newest Chapter, can’t wait to digest New Lore.

[sweet plume]

Telvanni Peninsula, Necrom, City of The Dead.

[sweet plume]

Mid?

I’m confused

Are you saying ESO is Mid as in Mediocre?

[quasi shale]

I'm digging it. Interesting it seems ||Daedric Princes seem to be teaming up against Mora||

[sweet plume]

I haven’t beat it yet I should state

But I’ll read that as soon as I do, it came out today for Consoles which I’m on.

[glacial scarab]

It does offer some interesting lore. But i'll leave that for you to find

[quasi shale]

Ahh I'm only on the third quest in. You find out what I said within the first quest. I've been playing it since like 5am on xbox. Lol

[sweet plume]

I’s been 3 hours and all I’ve been doing is exploring the city in General, Reading all the possible New Lore Books and exhausting all dialogue the NPC’s have.

[quasi shale]

This is the first I've really given eso a chance. It's so much to read and I'm trying to focus on Nekcrom and I'll do the expansions backwards.

[sweet plume]

I did see one book regarding the Telvanni Ranks and Magister which I’m sure made you happy.

[glacial scarab]

I think I was more questioning why they use Magister a lot which they did give an explanation in a Q&A

[sweet plume]

Yeah, but they also added in to the book that it’s a rank which means you are of equal standing or wish to impose a challenge against another.

[glacial scarab]

Yeah but that was already known the issue was there being like too many Magisters and no one challaning the Archmagister which was explained in the Q&A.

[sweet plume]

Ah gotcha

[glacial scarab]

I think the newer bit was more stuff for Hortators which I probably butchered spelling wise

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ranks_and_Titles_of_House_Telvanni

HORTATORS are rare and usually singular in nature. They can be found in all the Dark Elf houses, and are the highest non-magical rank within Telvanni society. Hortators are appointed in times of emergency and granted wide-sweeping authority. Past hortators have included powerful warriors, talented oathmen, and even Ordinators. Hortators serve as war leaders for only as long as the emergency lasts. The hortator outranks the masters, but masters can revoke their power at any time.
Hmm I actually spelt it correctly. What heresy is this?

[sweet plume]

It means you love the lore that you remember it

[sweet plume]

Honestly I got back into it last year after a 2 Year break, and that was when I first started, all I did was Base Game in it’s entirety at the time, so imagine how great it was having all the Expansions and such that had come out since, 5 Chapters of Content with smaller zones along the way with the 6th chapter coming soon.

[quasi shale]

Tbh it's mildly overwhelming. Once this chapter is finished, backwards seemed like as reasonable a way as any.

[sweet plume]

It’s play in any order but there is a usual order a storyline goes.

Personally I did it by release Order.

[quasi shale]

Yeah probably the way to. Learn characters as they were meant to be introduced.

[plain cosmos]

That actually matches up pretty well with what we see in Morrowind.

You have to be declared the Hortator of 3 of the Great Houses, and each declares it independently rather than collectively

So it being the equivalent of a Dictator in Rome, with each House being an independent 'Nation' in their own right and therefore able to declare their own, makes perfect sense.

Nerevar's historical excellence would have been remarkable then, allowing him to be named Hortator of at least 5 of the most powerful Chimer clans independently.

[sweet plume]

Lot of new Lore for sure this update

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. And most of it pretty good, from what I've seen.

[sweet plume]

I hear this chap is the most well received by far, which may be a sign going back to Multiyear long stories over Yearlong had made considerable improvement among the Content this year as a result.

[plain cosmos]

It's just something if a sad reflection of writing in ESO in general, that they always hit their highest when leaning in Morrowind.

The other provinces have so much to offer, but... Well... High Isle.

[sweet plume]

I mean I don’t want to think that’s necessarily it, because everyone pretty much said that when Yearlong Stories happened that they started to get less and less detailed.

[plain cosmos]

Maybe.

[sweet plume]

Like people clamored for Yearlong stories to end because right now as Necrom showed that when they put there focus in one area alone they can achieve a lot.

[plain cosmos]

We'll see if it sticks the landing, of course.

[sweet plume]

I mean look at Murkmire

[plain cosmos]

Murkime was pretty mid.

[sweet plume]

I disagree, that small area was filled with lots of Argonian lore

[glacial scarab]

The Legacy of the Bretons did do good lore for the Druid side of the Bretons.
Though the Antagonist did get dragged down by being yet another threat to the world

[plain cosmos]

Morrowind was pretty good. Summerset was again mid. Elsweyr had some good tidbits, but was generally mixed. High Isle was pretty weak across the board.

[glacial scarab]

I feel ESO Elsweyrs problems were more the antagonist roundabout of the chapter zone otherwise they explored the Khajiit fine.

[sweet plume]

Again I don’t think it’s a matter of Morrowind having to have the best writing because “People love Morrowind so we actually try hard.”
The moment Year Long Stories started to happen it’s pretty much the case that Things started to hit a point where it wasn’t meeting up compared to previous chapters.

[plain cosmos]

Absolutely, I think it highlighted why I'm a solid 1-Province guy.

It CONTAINED some interesting Khajiiti lore, but it's story was solidly not Khajiiti. And that's basically a necessary thing if you do two provinces.

So it ended up feeling like Nord and Imperial Mythology dropped onto the Khajiit, rather that something organically integrated into them

[sweet plume]

I mean it’s story was related to Khunzar-ri who sealed away the Dragons, along with a Descendant of his Lover who is the Queen.

[plain cosmos]

After the Dragons got uppity and left Skyrim so their leader could get and eat Akatosh

They just ended up IN Elsweyr, and we're stopped there, rather than being a mythical or integral aspect of their identity.

You could have taken that story, changed the hero who stopped them to be any other ethnicity, and dropped it into another province without otherwise changing a thing.

Well, some names and locations of course.

A failed Incarnate trying to name himself Nerevarine? That can only happen in Morrowind.

You move the location and it loses all meaning.

[sweet plume]

So because it wasn’t something unique to it’s location or people that makes it bad to tell a story there?

[plain cosmos]

No, but it highlights an issue that I think would be mandatory for a 2 Province game in the main series.

And in THAT case I do think it would be bad.

[sweet plume]

But Elsweyr was not a Two Province Game, it was one Province where they were telling this story.

[glacial scarab]

Tells you more about how much Dunmer bias the game series has when they go for TES3 nostalgia the zone.

[plain cosmos]

Yes, but the main series games should, in my opinion put the people, culture, mythology, and setting of the region first and foremost. A disconnected narrative like Rage of Dragons would almost be necessary in a 2 Province game because of the differences between provinces.

And both the provinces involved would lose out in that situation.

It can work in an MMO

[sweet plume]

I just don’t get why this is the belief.

[plain cosmos]

Well, because Morrowind had the work done, and none of the other provinces have had the same quality.

So it's easier to lean on the most developed setting to tell good stories, because someone's already done all the work in worldbuilding for you

[glacial scarab]

I mean Dragons can work anywhere. They have wings and would try to assert dominace around the area they're at.

Before TES5 they were a Akavir thing with some in Cyrodiil dude to the Akaviri influence.

[sweet plume]

I mean so can Vampires and Werewolves but that was done in Skyrim, personally I just don’t have an issue with a story being set in a province where the threat is not unique to it’s province.

[glacial scarab]

But then Oblivion came around and threw it all out for something different so they changed Dragons and did something new with Skyrim but still doens't stop them doing their own things.

[plain cosmos]

DLCs are a seperate thing, I think.

[sweet plume]

I mean I play ESO because all these places expand the lore, I don’t play it for Dunmer alone, if that were the case I’d never play ESO.

[plain cosmos]

I mean the base games mains story.

[sweet plume]

Personally I am fine with the lore we have gotten with the other provinces and the ones ESO has added, I personally am not strung up about it because more can be added later.

[plain cosmos]

I very much do not like some of the decisions and additions.

Altmeri Architecture, and Druids, as examples.

[sweet plume]

Altmeri Architecture? What?

[plain cosmos]

I will clarify after I eat.

[glacial scarab]

Summerset architecture is a common criticism which I can understand, It doesn't work with how fans have perceived what was said previously in PGE and because of Summerset covering the whole island in one zone which means there isn't much architecture variety.

[sweet plume]

Which why do we have to take PGE Seriously when we know not everything in that Guide of Imperial Propaganda is not necessarily true?

[sweet plume]

As for Architecture… what Architecture in Particular was expected?

[glacial scarab]

PGE1 said

Alinor
A forbidden city for nearly fifty years, Alinor is both capital of the Summerset Isles and the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. Human traders were only allowed at its ports, and they described the city as "made from glass or insect wings." Less fantastic accounts come from the Imperial emissaries of the Reman Dynasty, which describe the city as straight and glimmering, "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall."

[sweet plume]

Glass I get, Insect Wings? I can’t see it.

[sweet plume]

The Towers were pretty big last I was there, so that checks out when it came to Alinor.

[glacial scarab]

Though I wonder if this from PGE3 influenced ESO Summerset
https://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/pgtte_v3_summerset-isle.jpg

[plain cosmos]

It's more the general lack of style and character to their architecture.

[sweet plume]

Compared to Auridon it looks better, and not just because it’s Base Game, it just looks more Noble Like.

[plain cosmos]

It's neither sterile enough to looks formulaic and 'Pure' not artistic and elaborate enough to look awe inspiring.

[sweet plume]

I mean that’s how you see it, it looked Awe Inspiring to me, it’s pretty much the idea of how I saw High Elves.

[plain cosmos]

It's a bland knockoff Gothic. Breton architecture looks more sophisticated.

Maybe I've just been spoiled by High Elves with actual style.

[shell basin]

I wonder what happens if two (or more) Great Houses) agree on the need for a Hortator, but disagree on who it should be?

I mean, in TES3 Morrowind, the big issue was getting them to even agree that a Hortator was needed at all, as well as getting them to hand the job to an outsider.

(Perhaps, it's a question of "three out of the five Great Houses have to agree both on the need for a Hortator AND on the candidate, and it just so happens that there's three Great Houses right here within shouting / teleporting / silt-strider distance, because Indoril and Dres don't have any holdings on Vvardenfell and are therefore simply too far away to ask, so you're going to need all three of the Houses that are here": and if Houses disagree on the identity of the Hortator then no Hortator is chosen at all, rather than the potential chaos of rival Hortators.)

(In any case, Indoril would not agree with a non-Indoril or Hortator, because they'd insist that Nerevar himself - in his capacity as the last Hortator - was originally an Indoril: and besides, what could a Hortator do that the Blessed Tribunal could not? And Dres would never agree to an outlander Nerevarine because they are anti-Outlander. So in order to get three out of five, you have to rely on Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni.)

[sweet plume]

No, you just have your own opinion, what you liked would not have been what someone else likes and vice versa.

[plain cosmos]

Oh absolutely.

I can say the same about Blackmarsh. Lots of people love it.

I think it's one of the most boring swamps I've seen in a long time (Xanmeers not withstanding)

[glacial scarab]

I think the only problem I had with Druids was the Bretons using the Bosmer name I think it was? and how disconnected they are from the High Rock/City Bretons though that's probably more of they can't change much is the base "character" of races.

[sweet plume]

But I have personally always supported the direction of what the devs have chosen, because at the end of the day it’s not my world to build, it’s there’s alongside Bethesda to build the world. Morrowind is the most fleshed out, this is a fact, but I always appreciate getting new lore for other provinces even if it’s not the lore I wanted, because I learned something I didn’t beforehand.

[sweet plume]

I recall hearing that Y’ffre is not solely an Elvish Term from someone back in the other discord

[plain cosmos]

The Druids fell into what I call the Elf Civil War problem

That being a reference to the fact that literally every character of the Dark Elves, and all but one character for the High Elves, in Warhammer Fantasy was directly related to the conflict between the two Elven factions.

Only Eltharion , with his unending hatred of Goblins, escaped the problem.

[glacial scarab]

Elf Batman really just had other problems

[plain cosmos]

That problem being one very, very fat goblin

[sweet plume]

Elf Batman?

[plain cosmos]

Eltharion the Grim.

[sweet plume]

First thing that came to mind was That One Dark Elf from the Morrowind DLC

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/eltharion-the-grim-total-war-warhammer-yvresse-high-elves-warhammer-fantasy-gif-25006736

[glacial scarab]

A little joke on Eltharion the Grim from a Total War Trailer that put Eltharion in a Batman style role and Grom the Paunch as some Mad Max antagonist

[plain cosmos]

Linking the Druids to the Direnenni, a dynasty that only controlled Highrock for 500 out of the last 7000 years, only continues the tradition of making the entire Breton identity a direct result of the Direnni and High Elves.

They should have been what predated the Direnni, being totally unrelated to the Elven occupation.

[shell basin]

And it's all weird because right up till now the Bretons have basically been the sort of Chivalric European type, with comparatively little except a different language of names to distinguish them from the Roman-type Imperials.

[glacial scarab]

Druids did predate them if I recall. They left beause of the Direnni and Alessian stuff going on.
High Rock had Druid Kings which started with a Queen I think it was

[sweet plume]

Druids were mentioned as far back as Arena I believe, they’ve always been there

[plain cosmos]

They were the rulership cast appointed by the Direnni, then departed when the whole Alessian conflict began.

[shell basin]

I guess you could compare it to, say, Druids = like Welsh in Britain after having been shunted aside by not only the Angles and Saxons but the Norman French, so High Rock Bretons = like Britain under Norman French but with Celtic-type fringes - the Welsh-type Druid factions, and the Reachmen who recently are being retconned into being sort of Scots-Irish types

[plain cosmos]

And yes, they were always there, I just think they could have been developed in a far more interesting way that would better benefit the Breton history.

[sweet plume]

I mean yeah, Elder Scrolls tends to take inspiration from our real Life History.

[plain cosmos]

As it stands, they basically have no history before being 'Colonised'

[shell basin]

Given that written history was mostly written by the colonists... how very true to life.

And I don't mean "the colonists erased the history or the writings of the people they colonised", I mean "when the colonised simply didn't have the mass-writing and later on mass-printing and mass-record-keeping culture that the colonists did". It's the difference between a culture that has easy access to, say, paper and ink compared to one that does not.

[sweet plume]

I did get my friend into Elder Scrolls, funny enough he never cared about it before.

Now he’s genuinely interested in it

[plain cosmos]

Try as we might, we never managed to erase the history of the people we colonised though. The Bretons.... Just don't have squat.

And it was a great opportunity to develop that. Instead, they just went back to the Direnni well. Like how GW used to always go back to the Elf Civil War well

[glacial scarab]

I don't think the Druids of Galen have much connection to the Direnni or Altmer.
There's quite a bit of myth and legend surrounding the origins of it for the Nedes of High Rock from

I can tell you a number of stories, though. Galen, it's said, was the name of a spirit that walked from the heart of the forest into the midst of an ancient proto-Breton settlement. They were the one to sing the songs of Y'ffre to our ancient forebearers. They were the one to teach us the ways of the Green.

Or, if you believe another tale, Galen was the name of the first Archdruid, the first Druid Queen. She was one of the very first Nedes to channel the songs of the Singer, and rose to lead the first circle in the deep woods of High Rock.

Or, in yet another telling, Galen was the name of an island in a lake. A place of sacred worship where Y'ffre's heart could be felt beating even here in the realm of mortals. It was there, on that island, where our forebearers heard the songs and learned to tend the groves.

I don't think ESO added much lore for Druids and the Direnni other then the last Druid king had issues with the Direnni and left before the Alessians came to High Rock.

[plain cosmos]

Per Wyrd and Druid, the practices and even religion of the Druids does not exist until they are taught it by the early Merish settlers.

Druids developed after the schism causing the Wyrds to abandon civilisation entirely, with the Druids rising out of that to guide the newly rejected Manmer into the future.

Since this schism was directly born out of the rise of the Manmer and the Altmeri occupation, something directly attributed to the Direnni, then by necessity it can't predate them.

Of course, they play super fast and loose with exactly how long the Direnni were even in Highrock. With it being treated as millennia in some sources even though the actual dates we have barely give them 500 years.

Although, Bretons as a population don't even work in the Direnni timeline, as 20 generations would be insufficient to produce a new ethnic group

[sweet plume]

Alright, back from Dinner and explored all of Necrom that is possible atm, time to see the rest of the Peninsula.

[plain cosmos]

How does Necrom look, anyway?

[sweet plume]

I’ll post a pic if someone doesn’t yet, Give me a sec.

[sweet plume]

Best Pic I found on UESP

[plain cosmos]

Ok, so more traditional mudbrick and stucco than the green marble of Indoril and Dres

[sweet plume]

Sharp-as-Night’s Voice is butter… it’s to be expected since Garrus Vakarian’s Voice Actor is voicing him.

[plain cosmos]

That man was way too sultry to be voicing an alien bird.

[sweet plume]

It’s like he’s telling me he wants me without being forward about it, I never played Mass Effect but I know his Voice is… So damn Sexy, and I’m a dude.

[plain cosmos]

I know right?

Never romanced him in ME, but damn.

[sweet plume]

Being an Argonian is the perfect role

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, that'd fit him well.

I definitely dig that architecture though. Feels like the same sort of temple-fortress style of Vivec, the domed amber roofs of Almsivi temples, and still captures the verticality of the Mournhold look.

[sweet plume]

Also this in the City.

[plain cosmos]

Now that just feels full on Under Skar, House Redoran interior.

[sweet plume]

I believe it’s regarding Vivec’s Legendary Battle with The Ruddy Man?

[plain cosmos]

The high vaulted ceiling and domed interiors.

Either that, or something to do with the banishing of Dragon in Mournhold...

I don't see any runes that would specifically identify the owner of the hand.

[sweet plume]

I know it’s regarding Necrom, I feel it had to be something regarding it.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, I just can't think of any specific battle that took place there.

Ruddy Man was in Vardenfell if memory serves

[glacial scarab]

Necrom was built in the corpse of a beast like the Skar part of Ald-Ruhn.
The corpse of the beast dates to a Ted Persrson thing if I recall

[plain cosmos]

Could be that then

[sweet plume]

Yes that’s it!

[glacial scarab]

You can find an arm, head and chest but not the legs which is probably underwater.

[sweet plume]

I recall hearing that was talked about prior to Necrom getting an expansion

[plain cosmos]

That would explain the rib like rocks

Building your holy necropolis city in the corpse of a mythic god-enemy does fit the Dunmer

[glacial scarab]

Rip two links together was to fast

[sweet plume]

Should probably dm it to him

[glacial scarab]

Yeah check uesp for "Gulga Mor Jil". I don't know what timer there is

[plain cosmos]

I shall look it up.

Right after watching this Three Body Problem trailer...

[sweet plume]

Necrom Guard.

[brisk perch]

Necrom is neutral among the Great Houses, though is nominally Telvanni during the 2nd Era ||and in origin||

[sweet plume]

In Necrom they Burn there dead, interesting, it looks similar to the way a Viking would burn there’s.

[shell basin]

By the 3rd era, some of the House holdings ahve changed positions. Telvanni in particular seem to have been pushed further north, Necrom seems to fall more under Indoril governance. Likewise, Hlaalu had pushed Redoran out of Balmora and Suran: Tel Branora grew big enough to establish a boat connection to Sadrith Mora: Redoran drove the Ashlanders out of Ald-ruhn and kind of only uneasily tolerated them in Gnisis, the peace being kept by the foreign Imperial Legion which consisted mostly of Orcs under an Imperial human commander...

And the city of Ebonheart had moved to the southern tip of Vvardenfell mainland, just opposite Vivec City. Whether this was yet another godly stunt by Vivec (apparently considered - there is a document, "On Moving Ebonheart", in ESO, in Vivec's Temple), or a migration and re-founding as a reaction to the city being damaged or destroyed by an eruption from the nearby Ash Mountain of Stonefalls (for even the mainland of Morrowind has its volcanic areas), is not yet stated in the lore.

[plain cosmos]

Cremation seems to have been the general standard for Dunmer since Morrowind, with Ancestors and the Dunmer indicating that preservation of specific remains would typically only be used for the erection of a Ghostfence.

This matches with what we see in Morrowind, with scattered skeletal remains and burial urns being the most common, with the former largely limited to large ash pits. Themselves, likely the cremation pyres.

[sweet plume]

Learned that ||Gorne, a small island in the Peninsula is an Asylum for Telvanni Mages who went mad due to there use of Magick.||

[plain cosmos]

That... Actually fits a bit with what we know about magical influences ..

Mages are not stable people

[sweet plume]

||Yeah, Good ol Sheo had his Saints and Dark Seducers have fun there enjoying the Madness among those there, it’s a Public Dungeon atm, but it wasn’t always like this is what the quest is telling me.||

[glacial scarab]

I'd note the city would not have moved as the Ebonheart in TES3 is a Castle. So the City in Arena and ESO would still be there.. well until the Red Year that is

[sweet plume]

Got Sharp as a Companion, love him honestly and wonder how his story will go.

[split pond]

Does anyone besides the Dwemer have cannons?

[glacial scarab]

I don't believe cannons in TES have been seen outside of one piece of legends art.

[pastel sorrel]

Dwemer arquebuses are armed with them

[glacial scarab]

Arn't those flame throwers?

[pastel sorrel]

That's their default attack in at least one form of them, but they also fire cannonballs as their ranged AOE special

See also the mortar shells the centurions fire in ESO and outright rockets the colossi (or at least the Assembly General specifically) have

[glacial scarab]

I'll have to check their animations due to Flame magic or whatever they do on one hand and the Crossbow on the other

[glacial scarab]

But how much of those are just magic instead of what people are looking for in cannonballs and stuff like that?

[pastel sorrel]

There's no indication there's any magic involved besides what might propel them or act as explosives

for all intents and purposes, they're artillery shells and rockets

centurions packing the 40 mike-mike

[glacial scarab]

All intents and purposes they're the Dwemer's magic machines producing flame magic powered by possibly soul gems unless that was gameplay loot.
Dwemer machines from memory don't have much issue producing magical effects

[pastel sorrel]

Dwemer machines universally are more on the physical side. They utilize magic in the service of their mechanisms, almost all of their projectile attacks are physical objects

Arrows, ballistae, even cannonballs and other arty

They look, sound and function like cannons and rockets and such. I've literally played the game and seen this stuff in person, you're trying to argue against their existence when you haven't even checked for yourself yet.

[glacial scarab]

More memory related. I think it was something that split into two AoE wise but was running though Cyrodiil at the moment so long travel times and trying to recall memory at the same time doesn't work well

[glacial scarab]

from watching a arquebuses. Rapid fire shock bolts (crossbow arm), firing an proximity orb with an shock AoE and firing a Shock AoE that explodes into three that leaves a AoE (the other arm). Though I swear I recall a fire version from one of the Wrathstone Dungeon DLCs

Their constructs have been based been magic for some time just the Dwemer are well known for the stuff with Tonal architecture or magic. Which is probably why you they don't have a shock weakness as you can't short circuit them (was checking UESP for TES3 and 5s elemental defences for them).

Dwemer used them for many things so it isn't really odd they could also do magic be it destruction, tonal (ESO Gnisis produces a tonal barrier) and from the last I recall is Darkshade Caverns from it glowing green and the entire room becoming full of posion though I'd probably have to find a video to check that boss fight properly)

[fervent forge]

I always figured that the soul gems and foci used by dwemer constructs have a certain instability that ends up generating steam, which then pneumatically locomotes the machinery and mechanisms

[glacial scarab]

After looking up ESO Frostvault stuff as it gives some NPC talking of it (Tharayya)

"We won't be able to direct the Soul Gem's power without functional shock conveyors. They're common Dwemer technology, but we'll need the most pristine you can find for what I'm planning."

What are shock conveyors?
"Metallic channels that direct the flow of magicka between different parts of a Dwemer construct. Practically every Dwemer construct has them, but for what I'm planning only the highest grade will be up to the task."

The Final boss of the dungeon requires going into a metal rat form in order to get into the circuits to disable the "magicka condensers" powering the defences.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tharayya#Lock_and_Keystone

[quiet remnant]

Old developer campaigns used for worldbuilding. Figured it'd be appreciated here.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Loranna's_RP#Campaign_7:_The_Evening_Star_Parade

[slender parrot]

hey

[raven anchor]

What is the lore behind the book "A kiss, Sweet Mother" being found in the temple of Mara in Riften?

[pastel sorrel]

Someone not realizing which mother it was talking about, I would imagine.

[slender latch]

RIP loranna. Hopefully in the near future I can recover the rest of the threads.

It also wasn’t a dev campaign but community driven. Only one dev participated in it but it wasn’t meant to be official.

[quiet remnant]

I believe they used it to fill in game books.

[slender latch]

The references worked in reverse. The dev Ted Peterson worked on Oblivion and so had knowledge of the game.

[normal flicker]

Hello,
I'm trying to confirm if ESO's narrative is cannonical to Elder Scrolls or not. I get the impression that some people in Elder Scrolls community is not, let's say, "enthusiast" with ESO lore as part of original narrative...

[glacial scarab]

ESO is canon.

People will always have their bias's against certain games.

End of the day TES lore is very fluid and lets the devs do whatever they want and ignore anything of the previous games

[normal flicker]

Many thanks! 🙏🏼

[sweet plume]

I wouldn’t say Ignore necessarily.

Depends on what it is specifically that is being discussed about the series and what is written in a book should or should not be upheld as truth with an entry taking place where a Lorebook talked about with “He said, She said.”

[high forge]

Is the vestige from ESO ever mentioned anywhere in Skyrim or Oblivion? In a book in those games? Or in dialogue?

[upper field]

Don't think so since the concept didn't exist at the time.

Also the time between the Second Era and the end of the Third Era/Fourth Era is pretty, damn long. Pretty sure the Vestige was lost to time in a similar vein to the Champion of Cyrodiil and what not.

[high forge]

Thanks Blazing.

[upper field]

The thing about the chosen ones in each game is that usually they're forgotten about/taken out of the picture so that the next game can be "its own" and not have very strong ties to the previous.

[high forge]

Well, my friend... No matter what, my Cyrodiil hero, Vestige, and Dragonborn are all athletic wood elves. lol

[upper field]

kek

[high forge]

My Elder Scrolls 6 character would also be a wood elf.

Archery and speed is where it's at when it comes to wilderness survival. Hehehe. Orcs are only good in melee contests and in their mighty strongholds. Bosmers are the true woodsmen of the Tamriel.

[coarse sparrow]

By me, with Adobe after Effect, Jode & jone, Magnus, the Mundus Background with a touch of Oblivion Behind, with of course, Magnus followers Star, and Nirn :3

[sweet plume]

ESO also takes place during the Interregnum, a time in The Elder Scrolls History established as far back as Daggerfall with little account of what exactly happened.

[split pond]

That's mighty clever of them.

[sweet plume]

Yup, a lot happened during that time that ESO’s events are essentially a small part of an overall forgotten 200 or so years.

[split pond]

And it's a convenient lore excuse for why the events of the game are never referenced or mentioned in chronologically later games like Oblivion and Skyrim. The real reason, of course, being that ESO didn't exist yet.

[sweet plume]

Yes, fun fact, in Daggerfall they mentioned in a book the Dark Brotherhood profited well during the Interregnum and were essentially at there height, and in ESO, yep, that’s pretty much the case.

[proven moss]

I basically take what I like from ESO lore and leave the rest.

[sweet plume]

I mean the same can be said of every game

[proven moss]

Indeed.

[sweet plume]

Personally I am just supportive of Lore Additions by Bethesda and Zenimax, probably because I haven’t much reason to be upset that Elder Scrolls World continues to grow.

Next Year is the 10th Anniversary of ESO and the 30th Anniversary of The Franchise in General, and now I begin to wonder what could be done or if they want this next expansion to even be special considering that factor.

[split pond]

They'd be crazy not to release even a teaser for Elder Scrolls 6 next year.

[proven moss]

We already have a teaser

[split pond]

Another teaser

[sweet plume]

This year Starfield Releases so next year would definitely be when they would at least show a trailer of where the next game is taking place for Elder Scrolls VI, as for ESO’s next Location, nobody knows, this year was the Telvanni Peninsula and Apocrypha.

Some friends of mine believe Hammerfell is the next location for VI and ESO Devs are essentially avoiding Hammerfell as a result so they can actually recreate it in ESO

[proven moss]

We'll probably know the title of the next game soon. Maybe January. Just keep track of Zenimax's trademarks

Won't need an official announcement for that

Beth is likely to be cagey anyway until a year before release. Another teaser is possible I guess.

[proven moss]

Hammerfell is my favored guess too, but just because of the treeless and seemingly arid landscape of the teaser

[sweet plume]

Some of us also speculated the Teaser may not necessarily be indicative of it’s Location but to tell people “Hey the sequels in development, Now stop asking!” XD

[pastel sorrel]

Todd Howard said outright that the trailer held intentional clues, so

[proven moss]

Did he say that for certain, or did he hint at it, say there might be, etc?

It's so long ago I don't remember

[topaz dome]

Discussing the TES VI trailer in his 2018 interview with Geoff Keighley Howard said "...there are some things to pick apart. We'll let the fans do that." This would seem to suggest that there are indeed clues in the trailer., but we do not know what they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-3X04jwJ0U&t=322s

[scenic fog]

elderscrolls 6 at minimum will release in 2028 so its waaaay too early for a trailer next year

[sweet plume]

Such is life

[plain cosmos]

I've waited 20 years for a new Legacy of Kain. I can wait for TES.

[sweet plume]

To think by the time it releases it will have been 17 Years… sigh…

[proven moss]

Almost the span of a single human generation!

[scenic fog]

im 23 right now...ill probably be 30 when it comes out...thats messed up lol

[proven moss]

Anyhow, we've gone really off topic. Besides, the mods don't like speculating on the release date 😅

[last sage]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-boss-thinking-gif-23152539

[plain cosmos]

We need more sassy Afliq

Give me a matronly Afliq tavern owner who is like a sassy older Hispanic woman, and her gaggle of trouble making children of various Furstock

When she gets angry, she just launches into rapid Ta'agra tirades that are barely even coherent to non-Khajiit

[split pond]

Elder Scrolls are indestructible, right? Say an unknowing bandit somehow stumbles across one, can he use it as a bludgeon?

[proven moss]

I mean, maybe 😄

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-maybe-gif-6118846

Though that raises physical questions like... Mass ..

[brisk perch]

That sounds like a good way to get zero summed

[glass pine]

Seeing talk/speculation of a new trailer next year. Seems like a stretch, even with the anniversaries. New ESO and Starfield DLC is surely more likely

Maybe a tweet? Lol

[proven moss]

Stretch for sure

But we'll likely get a clue

I've said this before, but in the coming months we'll likely get a confirmation for the title when Zenimax registers it as a trademark

[sweet plume]

One ESO Side Quest really disappointed me with this new chapter.

Everything else was great in regards to the lore.

[raven anchor]

What is a soul? Can someone give me the deep lore? How can something like a Dragur have a white soul if they are undead servents of the Dragon priests?

[robust lintel]

And water is memory 🤯

[glacial scarab]

Gameplay..

Soul stuff is affected alot by gameplay then it is lore. For the lore side the whole "while and black soul" stuff is apparently just a made up thing by Vanus Galerion to classify things as things ok to soul trap and things not ok to soul trap.

Dragur is kinda an odd one as we don't know how much of the original soul is remaining like how Olaf One-Eye's Dragur is about and talking ubt he's also just chilling in Sovengarde.

[proven moss]

Yeah I agree

There's no real difference between white and black souls

[robust lintel]

My guess is the soul went to sovangarde and the humanoid figure is more of a shell of it's self, so it gets white instead of black?

[slender latch]

For those not aware Douglas Goodall, ex dev of morrowind, has been releasing lots of new mods. Everything from Numidium to the Eye of Argonia is mentioned in some form. You can now read all the quests and books on TIL https://www.imperial-library.info/content/affa-works

[chilly iron]

That's a great site for lore

[split pond]

I find it funny that the lowly guards are some of the most well-informed people in Skyrim. Pretty understandable, thinking about it, but still funny.

[plain cosmos]

Summerset Isles, first and foremost. Though he tested it in the Halls of the Colossus near Rimmen, in Elsweyr.

After the successful conquest of Tamriel though, he used it briefly to eliminate possible dissidents and powerful noble rivals, before the Underking blew it up.

[plain cosmos]

Given its tendency to muck with time, it's possible that the last targets were actually other Dragonborn bloodlines

[plain cosmos]

With Tiber seeking to secure his lines rule by literally erasing rivals ability to claim the Divine Right of the Covenant of Akatosh

[plain cosmos]

It's very difficult for other bloodlines to challenge your right to rule, when you're the only one left able to literally demonstrate Divine Right, afterall.

[glacial scarab]

Probably a mix of other Dragonborns and replacing people who would eventually cause issues with more loyal ones. As Tiber has just taken Tamriel so it just got out of a big war.

And after checking the wikis Daggerfall seems to have him targeting neutral royal families to replace with ones he knew to be loyal. Though with the nature of things like this they'd skip over any peasants hit by this I feel.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:The_Mantella_Revealed (Letter 2)

Septim began using Numidium to crush the neutral royal families of Tamriel so that he could enthrone only persons he knew to be loyal.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, the official line is definitely that, yeah.

[glacial scarab]

i'd it's a mix of both with him targetting possible future threats. So other Dragonborns and families that arn't "loyal" got some Bionicle action until the Underking stopped it.

[plain cosmos]

It's worth noting that the Dragonborn thing didn't exist when that information was written.

So it's more applying new information as it recontextualises old stuff

[plush zinc]

had a question regarding anu and padomay, in the monomyth book it mentions ak-el as another name for the two and im scouring uesp trying to work out what religion uses those names in their creation myths but i cant find any other lore books that use the names. does anyone know if ak-el has been written into any other lore books or is mentioned anywhere else?

so far this is what ive come up with for names

im trying to work out who it could be but i havent worked out how my variants of tamrielic religions there are

it could just be a red herring from kirkbride, or an error and he could be refering to the yokundan tradition

[blissful arch]

I want to say Anu and Padomay are Elven, Aldmeri. But I cannot say where I'm remembering that from.

[plush zinc]

oh i know all the others, its ak-el who i dont know the source for. im trying to write that handy dandy little list for a youtube video and its bugging me theres one that cant be placed

[blissful arch]

Akel is the Yokudan Sithis. Perhaps?

But the hyphen might be the big difference.

So Ak is Anu/Anuiel/Satak and El is Padomay/Sithis/Akel.
Hm... so Ak-El is a dual deity.
Anuiel-Sithis is Aldmeri.
Satak-Akel is Yokudan.
Is-Is Not smacks of Khajiit, with their way with words.

[plush zinc]

from what i can tell is/is not is just a phrase used by psijic scholars to describe anu and padomay, so its not really an official name and more just a way of highlighting the contrast

although in different religions it can be order and chaos, stasis and change, good and evil. its not clear, but i think the reason the psijics describe it like that is because across all tamrielic religions there isnt one specific reason why the universe forms, its just understood that there was some difference between the two beings. is/is not is just the most clear and passive way of describing the difference

[blissful arch]

It's gonna be something like that. Either a religion or a specific group using those words.

I don't see anything on the Wiki about it though.

[raw grail]

i don't believe they're ever mentioned again, so we have no idea. more speculatively, however...
elven religion organizes the primordial entities as Anu, Padomay, Anui-El, and Sithis. Anu and Padomay are the absolute most basic concepts of Is and Is Not. Anui-El and Sithis could be thought of as the souls or children of Anu and Padomay: Stasis and Chaos, respectively. Satak and Akel are often thought of as being equivalent to Anu and Padomay, combing to form Satakal, which is effectively Aurbis personified. however, it could be that Ak-El is more similar to Anu and Padomay - the most primordial forms given names - while Satak and Akel are more similar to Anui-El and Sithis. ultimately, tho, that's very, very, very speculative and based on very little other than the similarity between Ak-El and Akel. it's essentially baseless conjecture

[raw grail]

it's Psijic. directly mentioned in the Monomyth within their section

"Aurbis" is used to connote the imperceptible Penumbra, the Gray Center between the IS/IS NOT of Anu and Padomay. It contains the multitude realms of Aetherius and Oblivion, as well as other, less structured forms.
- The Monomyth: The Myth of Aurbis (also subtitled "the Psijic Compensation")

as far as i could find, it was the only in-universe comparison between them

[plush zinc]

yeah i knew that.

[raw grail]

i think there were a few out-of-universe mentions of the relationship but they obviously don't help at all

oh

i pinged the wrong message. my bad. wanted to do the one above that

[plush zinc]

fair enough

[raw grail]

there we go

[plush zinc]

im trying to think what other religions could there be that ak-el could be the names for

[raw grail]

this is also nearly baseless, but "el" is an elven word, and "ak" is like 2/3 of an elven word xD

[plush zinc]

does it have a translation?

[raw grail]

yeah. "high" or "soul" iirc

such as in Anui-El, where it is "soul of Anu"

the two-thirds of a word i was thinking of was "aka," which is "time" or "dragon," or in Nedic "tiger"

[plush zinc]

hmmmm it would be nice if that was an analogue for akatosh and lorkhan

a version of the creation myth that rejects the idea of the primal forces

but auriel and akatosh are the same god?

im probably reading to far into these since these myths seem to be either lore for the main quest of morrowind or setting up the reason for an underlying conflict between men and mer

[plush zinc]

by the way, do the psyijics follow any specific form of tamrielic religion?

[raw grail]

Morrowind and Redguard did a lot to change the lore. the Monomyth and Varieties of Faith were basically design documents outlining the way that religion, genesis, and theology now works

[raw grail]

actually i'll just post the passage and book that describes how the Psijic happened

[raw grail]

Gradually, as the society grew, social stratification increased. A hierarchy of classes began to form, which is still largely enforced in Summerset to this day. At the top are the Wise, teachers and priests, followed by Artists, Princes, Warriors, Landowners, Merchants, and Workers. Below Workers were the beasts, such as the enslaved goblins, who the Aldmer used to perform the jobs beneath the dignity of the very least of them. The religion of the people also changed because of this change in society: no longer did the Aldmer worship their own ancestors, but the ancestors of their "betters." Auriel, Trinimac, Syrabane, and Phynaster are among the many ancestor spirits who became Gods. A group of elders rebelled against this trend, calling themselves the Psijics, the keepers of the Old Ways of Aldmeris. With their mystical powers, they were able to settle in Artaeum, away from what they considered the corruption of their society. They continued to return to the land to act as advisors, but never again would they call Summerset home.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Summerset
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Old_Ways
the short version is that they worship and acknowledge all ancestors, which, according to them, includes Daedra, Aedra, Magne-Ge, and those mortals who have managed to pass to Aetherius. that said, i'm not sure this worship is necessarily explicit through like, prayer and such, but rather through maintaining and preserving their tradition, knowledge, and memory. that said, this area is where my understanding of the Psijic Order breaks down a lot...

[plain cosmos]

Well, because their depictions have been somewhat dodgey at best

They've largely been treated not as ideological fundimentalists, but simply as a clique of powerful mages

Due to that, what they are, how they behave, and what they believe, has largely been a subject of, 'Whatever the story needs them to be'

As such, they aren't as clearly defined or expressed as, say, the Ashlanders or shiver The Dark Brotherhood.

[sweet plume]

You make it sound like the Dark Brotherhood is bad.

[plain cosmos]

I've expressed my opinion of them before, and will simply leave it at:

I think they are.

[sweet plume]

Gonna have to disagree on that notion but whatever

[plain cosmos]

I would be surprised if we agreed on a topic, really.

[sweet plume]

Same

[blissful arch]

It's interesting to see who applies what current year and modern senses of morality and ethics to given situations and characters in these games, and how they apply those things.
Depending on the role-play, I sympathize with many of the "evil" characters and factions, and sometimes I don't. Some characters are creatures of their time and place, and others are "me" in that situation.

I think that's the power of these games and the stories they tell and the stories we experience through our play.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, its got nothing to do with them being Evil.

I don't always Destroy the Dark Brotherhood because they're evil. I do it because it's cathartic to burn what I think is the single worst written faction in the franchise to the ground.

[sweet plume]

That I will personally disagree on and I will leave it at that, I only agree with Skyrim’s interpretation and that’s it

[plain cosmos]

Nah, Skyrim's interpretation was an improvement. And then, not much of one.

[blissful arch]

A player after my own heart. Yes, I too find them repugnant as a player.

[sweet plume]

No, disagree, Disliked Skyrim’s Dark Brotherhood with a passion, only Oblivion’s and ESO’s Brotherhood I consider the best.

[blissful arch]

They're so cringe to me, especially compared to previous installments, and I'm including the Mora Tong.

The Thieves Guild is difficult for me to care about as a player too.

I wish you could "destroy" them too.

[sweet plume]

Didn’t like Thieves Guild in Skyrim either, ironically both Factions are at there best in Oblivion and in ESO.

[blissful arch]

I thought they were alright in Morrowind.

Especially the interplay between the Fighter's Guild and the Thieves Guild.

[plain cosmos]

Couldn't stand Oblivion's Theives Guild either. Though in that case it was because they were too Robin Hood.

Also, because the whole Grey Fox arc just bored me to tears.

Skyrim's wasn't spectacular, but at least it felt like you were criminals. Not some gaggle of freedom fighters sticking it to the man.

Oblivion's just reminded me too much of my first Cyberpunk game, which is not the sort of memory you want to dredge up

[sweet plume]

Because you dislike Good guys or something?

Or people who have a bit more morality than other Thieves?

[plain cosmos]

Not at all. I tend to almost pathologically play good guys.

But Oblivion's thieves Guild felt sterile. Like it was a children's book version for theives, fighting for justice against 'Authority'.

Oblivion in general felt more like a Disney Movie than any sort of realised Fantasy World.

[sweet plume]

Can’t agree on the Disney Aspect

Skyrim in General just could not do what Oblivion did for me with The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, even ESO is easily above the Skyrim one’s for me

[proven moss]

I personally liked the Robin Hood take. Though it wouldn't work everywhere or in every game.

[sweet plume]

I prefer that it showed a Thieves Guild being different

[proven moss]

I actually just watched an essay the other day that pointed out Oblivion's theme of class conflict

[blissful arch]

Oblivion does have some excellent writing.

[proven moss]

Which, admittingly, I never quite articulated before

But I thought it was a pretty good analysis of the environmental storytelling

[sweet plume]

Each Bethesda game is trial and error really, each entry then improves what works or removes what did not.

[proven moss]

I think a lot of the sidequests are pretty memorable and fun. Even if many of the bigger quests aren't.

[sweet plume]

Oblivion Biggest Memorable Moments are it’s side content personally for me

[blissful arch]

Oooooo the horker stew is s p i c y in here tonight lol

[sweet plume]

Ngl I wanna try Horker Stew

[plain cosmos]

I'll be honest, I can't even remember one I'd call Memorable, outside the 3 women robbing their John's... And that was mostly because of how shocked i was they didn't do anything more with it.

You just kill the three bad women and move on.

Like, here's an opportunity to explore social inequality and individual hardship and ... NOPE. Just generic meanie bandit ladies.

[sweet plume]

Sometimes simplicity works best, I still remember it to this day

[plain cosmos]

The only thing I remember was the annoyance.

It was like Superman and Martha.

[proven moss]

Oh, there were lots of good ones I thought. Like the Bruma treasure one. The Painted Trolls. Hackdirt. Mazoga. Glarthir. The "Greatest Game" one.

The corrupt guard

[sweet plume]

I loved The Painted Trolls and Hackdirt

[vocal vector]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-martha-superman-why-do-you-say-that-name-bvsdoj-gif-11234442

[plain cosmos]

Ok, I'll give you the Painted Trolls one. That was at least visually interesting.

[sweet plume]

Also the one with the two Twins.

[proven moss]

The Painted Trolls wrecked me so hard haha

[plain cosmos]

Hackdirt failed to commit to anything, and felt more like a grade 7 book report on Shadow over Innsmouth

Honestly don't even remember the others.

[blissful arch]

The invisible village is great to me.

[sweet plume]

I think the issue is you want more depth.

[plain cosmos]

Always.

[proven moss]

Oh yeah, the invisible village

[plain cosmos]

Like I said, it's Disney. If I wanted superficial stories about good vs evil, or true love, or whatever, I'd go watch a Disney movie.

[sweet plume]

Good for you

[proven moss]

The Staff of Scamps one. what a pain haha

[sweet plume]

But not everyone wants Depth in a side mission

[proven moss]

*Everscamp

[sweet plume]

Sometimes it can be something that hooks you and can be remembered as a fun diversion.

[plain cosmos]

Which is fine

But when a game is ONLY fun diversions with no depth, it's a problem

[proven moss]

Skyrim had some good sidequests too, but it was cluttered by the radiant quest mechanic

[plain cosmos]

Unfortunately it got burdened with that, yeah

[proven moss]

If they keep trying to improve radiant quests, it might be able to work. But they need to really work on improving

[sweet plume]

I want depth in Video Games but the entire game was not just fun diversions and no depth for me

[plain cosmos]

Even creating situations where location stories conflicted with quest stories due to it, creating a jumbled mess of two competing narratives in a single location.

[sweet plume]

Maybe I am to easily impressed, but I know how I feel as a person and see something more than what others may claim.

[plain cosmos]

And that's fine.

I can't take YOUR enjoyment of it away from you.

I can't stand Harry Potter or Star Wars either, that doesn't mean others can't like them.

All any of us can do is express our takes on the material.

I am sorry if my statements came off as an attack on your enjoyment, rather than a criticism of that material.

[plush zinc]

depth in main quests would be nice too

i think youd probably be right

its meeting the balance of in depth and expanding on modern design

[sweet plume]

Of course.

[plain cosmos]

I'd just settle for some internal logic. Like, can anyone even confidently explain Alduin's motivation in Skyrim, or Dragon's in Oblivion?

I recently watched a video about how terrible Cyberpunk's story is, and it highlighted a major problem in video game writing of late.

We aren't given reasons or explanations for villains, we're mostly just told Bab Guy Bad, Must Stop.

Admittedly, this problem extends even to Morrowind, as Dagoth Ur's motivations are never really explored in the game. They come almost entirely from out of game sources.

[glacial scarab]

Reminds me that for Skyrim people at acting off old information in regards to Alduin. But no one knows how he would act after been thrown into the far future.
it's an assumption that he's going to end the world even though he was in the stage of not doing it and doing his own thing.

I don't think Dagon even had anything in TES4. The writing that got the focus main quest wise was The Mythic Dawns propaganda and Mankar's madness. Dagon says nothing in that game and you can never fully trust a cultist when their Prince can lie to use them a pawn. I think ESO explores some of Dagons desire for Nirn but that's a different game.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah.

An explicit example of this problem is Alduin in Skyrim. Despite interacting with him on a few occasions, he never expresses his goals or motivations. The closest you get is one question asked by another dragon.

At the same time, every single reference to him outside direct interactions focuses on the whole 'End of the World' threat. No one even brings up the commonly believed idea that he's trying to take over the world, it's explicitly treated as him ENDING it.

This is compounded by literally no one actually trying to act on the whole conquest idea. No dragon starts a cult, no dragon demands tribute, no dragon claims territory or make demands or is even alluded to doing any of this stuff. All they do is DESTROY everything they see.

This creates a paper thin narrative where you can't even clearly establish why Alduin is the villian, beyond the fact you're TOLD he is.

[plush zinc]

they shouldve played off the bestial aspects of dragon kind way way way more

[plain cosmos]

Now, Oblivion does the same thing, maybe even to a greater degree, but at least has Kvatch to sorta cover their ass with motivation

[plush zinc]

like contrast the ideas of being almost godlike and having great power and knowledge with that animalistic nature

[plain cosmos]

They should have leaned into the Dragon Cult.

Either make Alduin a world-ending threat, or make most of the story about him rebuilding his cult and calling out his faithful.

But they had made clandestine cults a major part of the previous two games, so probably didn't want to tap that well again.

[plush zinc]

this is a cool plot point that is heavily underdone in the game itself as well

[glacial scarab]

One of the dungeons in the Rift talks of the Dragon Cult believing they'd come back to life when the Dragons returned.
So in the Dragon Cult could've came back in TES5 as a Dragons returning and Draugr are attacking.

the dungeon has the Thalmor person fooling Civil War soldiers to go into it.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, and how poorly it's handled is reflected in the common perception that Alduin abandoned his role as World Eater, as the motivation for the Dragonborn stopping him.

However that claim is not made by ANYONE, ANYWHERE in Skyrim.

[plain cosmos]

Which would have been fine. Were it not clearly established that Draugr had been 'Alive' and active for centuries before Alduin and the Dragons returned.

[glacial scarab]

It was specifically the Dragon Cult ones at least.

[plain cosmos]

Which are basically all of them. Though, we already knew in Skyrim that Draugr activity was common amongst old crypts, and we see in ESO that the Draugr and literal Dragon Priests were active literally a thousand years earlier.

Now, if Draugr suddenly started coming down from their crypts and attacking settlements, then maybe there'd be some grounds to reconcile the idea with what we see... But that doesn't happen anywhere.

Vampires can attack towns, Dragons can attack towns. The Companions can be found wandering the wilderness. And yet there's not a single encounter for roving bands of Dragon Cult Draugr

[glacial scarab]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Note_(Forelhost_Crypt)

Yeah it's just that the Dragon Cult Draugr ultimately do nothing.

[plain cosmos]

Which is a narrative and worldbuilding problem, yeah.

But that's a consistent problem across TES games... There's generally very little actual integration between world and game, with the line between them being pretty paper thin.

Of course, even Oblivion does better there than Legends.

[dapper river]

There's a book you can find around Skyrim that offers a possible explanation for not encountering dragon priests/draugr out on the road or in villages. There's an argonian adventurer on his death bed who says the dragon claw keys/the puzzles aren't necessarily meant to keep people out, but to keep the draugr in.

[glacial scarab]

I feel that would work if it was the front door. But it seems to be for more stuff either relating to like a royal tomb, someone sealed away or something else usually just an important part of the tomb that you'd have extra security on.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. The Keys only ever seal the inner sanctum, but there are Draugr everywhere in Ancient Nord Tombs.

At best, it would explain why Dragonpriest themselves aren't running loose. But not their minions.

[proven moss]

Yeah, that's one explanation for the doors. Cynically it's why all the puzzles are so easy. Only undead zombies can't solve 'em.

[plain cosmos]

Which would make sense... If we didn't know that Draugr are intelligent and capable of ritualistic behaviour, tool use, and outright communication

Though it's kinda fitting that the Nords would think that such a simple puzzle would keep them in... Probably because they struggle to solve it themselves.

[glacial scarab]

Well without the key you can't get past it so I'd assume that the person who would have the key would be like a family head or someone of importance to sealing the place.

[sweet plume]

This is about recently introduced Lore with ESO, for those who haven’t played the new chap yet or not interested in playing ESO, but want to learn about it’s Lore Additions to the series, ||basically they revealed there is a Daedric Prince Mora made everyone forget.

Ithelia, known as The Prince of Paths, the Mistress of the Untraveled Road, the Unseen, the Fate-Changer is the Daedric Prince of Paths. She supposedly had the ability to shape destiny, alter fate and rearrange its strands to her whims. Considering this power a threat to reality, Hermaeus Mora erased the memory of the Prince from existence in order to preserve reality.||

[sweet plume]

Honestly this shocked me.

It’s not something they just tend to even just do

Like I need thoughts on this, cause this is just huge to me and I want to socialize

Without outright saying what the spoiler is of course

[raw grail]

||i felt like a lot of her themes and titles felt very Hermaeus Mora-y, ironically, but also shared some similarities with Nocturnal in a weird way. i've been feeling iffy about it, but i'm withholding judgement until i learn more solid information about her. more speculatively, i've heard some people suggest she's the Prince of Prisoners, or alternatively the Prince of fates and timelines which have been lost. something something power over lost fates made her seem too dangerous to the "true" line of fate, and so he got rid of her to the best of his ability||

[sweet plume]

||She is Mora’s Opposite, She Alter’s Fate, but he believes fate should be allowed to run it’s course.||

[raw grail]

||from what i heard, he actively trims away the fates that aren't "true" and result in a different result from what i've come to know as Tamriel Prime, or less niche-ly, the primary timeline||

but, i've yet to play the Chapter

[sweet plume]

||Similarities to Nocturnal may not be the intention, but it’s nothing new that Princes share similar spheres with with another.||

[raw grail]

||well, to be clear, i associate Nocturnal with concepts that are very similar to quantum superposition thanks to shadow magic||

[raw grail]

but yeah, you're right

[sweet plume]

||I like this though, a Prince that essentially is Mora’s Opposite, Princes opposing each other is something I’ve always liked, Like Meridia and Molag Bal, Bal loved all that is Undead and Unholy, Meridia is about life and Purification and such.||

[raw grail]

that's a lot of why i'm withholding judgement until i learn more. ||if she's sufficiently unique from other Princes, while maintaining some level of connection, then i'm happy. if she feels like she's riding off of someone else's role and doesn't really justify her own existence, then i'll be pretty disappointed. that said, i heard another person suggest that she might be the Prince that Deadlight used to be for, which is a very intriguing thought!||

[raw grail]

that's fair! Princes having associations is a lot of what makes them interesting

[sweet plume]

||The Legend of Deadlight is the Book your looking for to read.||

[raw grail]

Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah are all pretty interesting on their own. they're flat out fascinating when combined into the Three Good Daedra

[raw grail]

||i'm aware of the book, but it doesn't mention the Prince is the thing||

||it just says that it belonged to a Prince who is now forgotten||

||"Look upon this broken plane, mortal," the Dremora said to the priest. "This is all that remains of the realm of a Prince whose name is now forgotten. Before your kind first walked upon your world, the Prince of Destruction made war upon his enemy and laid waste to his home. Nothing survives the wrath of Mehrunes Dagon. This is his gift to you—a demonstration of his power and proof that he keeps his promises to followers and foe alike."||

[sweet plume]

||It refers to the Prince as Him

Which I think is just them assuming the Gender, but Princes never did have a real Gender, however they more often than not identify in certain genders to Mortals.||

[raw grail]

the thing that throws it off for me is that ||hermaeus mora is the one that did ithelia. this theory requires that mora and bal be involved||

[raw grail]

tbf even Malacath, Sheo, and Molag Bal have circumstancially changed pronouns or adopted other gender identities... ||but yeah, that's a very good point nonetheless||

[brisk perch]

I have an alternative theory on ||Ithelia, in that she quite literally is the Moon Prince, and the story was changed when the memory of her was wiped from the Aurbis: ||

||Lorkhaj. The Moon Prince. Fadomai's Favored Son. The White Lion. He was born in the Great Darkness and it followed him as his burden. Loved by many, he was considered a noble leader. Lorkhaj was the first spirit to make his own path with purpose, because he was in conflict with himself as soon as he was born. His courage inspired all those he encountered, so much that he united the spirits to make the World. He gave his life to do this. We honor his sacrifice by walking the Path with purpose and resisting the call of the Dark. Lorkhaj represents the duality of the Khajiiti soul and the hardships that all Khajiit must overcome. In her wisdom, Azurah lit her brother's pyre with the Twin Lanterns of Jone and Jode, and thus the true spirit of Lorkhaj will sometimes appear—but only when called by Azurah or Khenarthi, or by his oldest name.||
||The last line is key to this theory. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Sky_Spirits||
Another theory is that ||she is literally the first prisoner, if not every prisoner, since prisoners have the ability to change fate||

[glacial scarab]

||The thing is the memory was erased so you wouldn't remember if the realm belonged to a Prince so I don't think it could be Deadlight because they would have no memory of that place belonging to a Prince||

[raw grail]

||that doesn't completely throw me off of the idea on its own, seeing as some Princes are apparently mad at Mora for making people forget Ithelia or something. if the Prince is forgotten, does that mean we'd forget that her Plane ever belonged to a Prince at all, or would we just forget that it belonged to her? i'd generally expect the latter, rather than the former. idk tbh. buuut i also haven't read much of the stuff on Ithelia yet either, not that there is much, so it's hard to judge what's reasonable speculation and what isn't, when it comes to her||

[glacial scarab]

||I mean the memory of that Prince was wiped from existence so I don't see how they would even remember that this is the realm of a Prince that Dagon destroyed. As the book for Deadlight talks of Dagon destroying another Prince's Realm which if their memory was entirely wiped out that former followers have no memory of it then I don't see how anyone would remember that plane as the plane of a Prince. The only reason the other Princes are going after Mora is due to memory being stolen as they don't yet remember the whole deal with Ithelia ||

[raw grail]

||she's unprecedented! that's the word i was tryna find||

[raw grail]

||i don't think that wiping memory of that Prince would necessarily make it impossible to remember that the realm belonged to a Prince at some point. i understand if you do, i think it makes sense, i can see where it's coming from, i just don't know that it's necessarily true and i could imagine it going either way. if i forget a person, and i find something that belonged to that person, i won't associate it with the exact person it belonged to, but there's a good chance i'd still be able to associate it with a person. i might even say that person is forgotten, since i don't know who it belonged to! unless i'm mistaken, we don't know the full story or scope of the effects. i hope you can understand why, as a result, this alone isn't enough for me to go "oh, yeah, you're right, it couldn't be Ithelia, that wouldn't make any sense considering this". it combined with what everyone else pointed out is making me think it's very unlikely, ofc. does that make sense?||

ig it'd be simpler but still accurate to say "i need to see more sources before i feel comfortable making up my mind"

[pastel sorrel]

looking like an SCP document up in here

[plain cosmos]

Take your alloted amnestics before leaving your shift.

[plush zinc]

is all eso lore this disrespectful to the rest of the series

[plain cosmos]

Most of it is far more respectful to the series than anything BGS themselves have done in the last two decades.

[sweet plume]

Lol, no, where you get that idea from?

I find it hard to see what’s so disrespectful about it.

[plush zinc]

just going back and editing pre-existing lore just feels a bit blegh

plus kirkbride basically said as far as he's concerned you can pick and chose canon

[plain cosmos]

So... Business as usual?

[sweet plume]

This isn’t exclusive to ESO

[plain cosmos]

Like, do you think Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim DIDN'T do that?

[plush zinc]

not nearly to the extent eso seems to do to justify its stories, mainline games should expand lore

[sweet plume]

And reminder, ZOS have Bethesda as consultants and what they can and cannot do, such as Akavir among other things.

The Fact they do this already tells me Bethesda are fine with it

[plush zinc]

as far as im concerned bethesda hasnt known what to do with lore for a while lol

[sweet plume]

ESO has expanded the lore lol, way more than Bethesda is even doing much of these days with Mainline Titles

[plush zinc]

i dont know what your point is, as far as im concerned both are bad

[sweet plume]

Nah, it’s done a lot for the series and I’m happy it exists

[plush zinc]

each to their own

[plain cosmos]

On the whole, ESO has done far more, far better, with the lore than BGS has in two decades.

ZoS isn't afraid to actually explore some of the more interesting concept, and isn't constantly doubling down on minimalist Babies-First-Adeventure worldbuilding.

[sweet plume]

Like it needs to be said as much as I love Oblivion and Skyrim, Beth imo have focused to much on the modernization of the series more than continuing to expand what’s already there with lore.

[plain cosmos]

They've had some missteps, sure. Valenwood might as well be burned to the ground... But the Khajiit, Argonian, and really even the Daedric stuff in ESO is amazing.

[sweet plume]

I have a friend who would disagree heavily on Valenwood actually. XD

But as a whole ESO is the one doing more for the franchise in close to 10 Years

That in itself is an amazing thing.

[plain cosmos]

And they are free to. For my part, ESOs Valenwood took Bosmer from my second favourite group, to my least favourite.

But yeah. On the whole, ESO has added more, and done more, than the mainline games have done since Morrowind.

[sweet plume]

And they went back to the Multi Year Story Format which is the best format for Lore in General.

[plain cosmos]

It's not something to just chuff at and dismiss.

Even this most recent addition fits perfectly with what we know of the players, how Princes and Et'ada work, and the setting as a whole.

[sweet plume]

Chapter 7 Necrom is considered the best expansion in the last few years due to the fact they dropped year long stories and it allows them to focus more deeply on a lot of things.

[glacial scarab]

Like what every TES game did.

[sweet plume]

If they didn’t, this new Section of Morrowind would have suffered from it.

[glacial scarab]

Well except Arena but they had nothing to change.

[sweet plume]

Arena is essentially The Beta Scrolls

[sweet plume]

Like I’m not kidding, Apocrypha and The Peninsula felt way more detailed and info heavy compared to the last few chaps

[plain cosmos]

I mean, Arena didn't even have Daedra yet.

[sweet plume]

They may as well have been the Demons

[plain cosmos]

Yeah.

I think Fire Atronachs were actually called Fire Demons...

It's been years though

[sweet plume]

Like I know some will say because it’s Morrowind and they have to try harder but when they did Clockwork City and Vvardenfell that was during the Multiyear Story.

[plain cosmos]

And as far as Kirkbride goes... While I admire his contributions and his creativity, his stance on Canon is frankly just nonsense.

You might as well argue that you can just pick and choose which laws of physics you want to acknowledge.

[sweet plume]

A few of his suggestions did make it in, such as the Sword Cutting Technique mentioned in Cyrus Meeting Vivec being the thing that Sank Yokuda

It’s essentially confirmed at this case that is what happened to Yokuda

[plain cosmos]

Absolutely. And his contributions have helped make TES what it is. Along with Peterson and Khulmann.

[sweet plume]

Bethesda/Zenimax do pick and choose with him

[plain cosmos]

But Kirkbride's word is not law. The only people who define what is and is true are the Copyright Holders.

[sweet plume]

Kirkbrides ideas work through a filter rather than let to run wild

[plain cosmos]

Like, I may not LIKE any of Valenwood. But until it's retconned, it is Canon.

[sweet plume]

I mean getting rid of ESO Canon is just asking for backlash to

[plain cosmos]

I can't just be like 'Naw dog, that ain't true in MY Tamriel'.

[plain cosmos]

It would be a disaster too.

[sweet plume]

Like some people who only play the Singleplayer games may actually be happy but some of them would never understand what it’s done in the wait between Skyrim and VI

[plain cosmos]

It'd also be a general waste of time. Like, the amount of leg work the ZOS team has done can't be understated.

They've done more writing in 10 years, than BGS has in 20. Tossing all that work would be a net loss for everyone.

[sweet plume]

And Bethesda were consultants to on ESO

So already that would just be disrespectful.

[plain cosmos]

Mmhmm.

Also, mark the calendar

[sweet plume]

Apocrypha’s Lore was great this year since they switched back to Multi Year

[plain cosmos]

We have agreed on something. Definitely worth a notation

[sweet plume]

We don’t disagree on everything, just most of it. XD

[sweet plume]

Although I’m not happy with the ||Morian Zenas Retcon||

[plain cosmos]

With greater room for pontificating, I suspect I could sway you on most things. But this platform isn't really conducive to long form thesis...

[sweet plume]

I mean I can be swayed it just depends on what it is, like the thing I just mentioned is something imo that was just unnecessary, even if it’s comedic in some ways

[plain cosmos]

Must have missed that one.

[sweet plume]

||He’s the Author of On Oblivion and Doors of Oblivion, books as far back as Morrowind and Oblivion.||

[plain cosmos]

That's the biggest downside to ESO. They've added so much, it's practically become like WoW, or is approaching Warhammer levels of content.

[sweet plume]

Me: Content! Give me more!

[plain cosmos]

You could almost write a thesis on a singular topic within the setting, rather than the setting as a whole.

I'm not saying I don't like it. Warhammer is my JAM. but there comes a point where you need to specialise rather than know everything

[sweet plume]

I think in WoW’s case like Lich and a friend mentioned, Lore was not being handled well.

[plain cosmos]

Speaking of Warhammer... I need to get back to painting my Dragon. These individual stars on its wings aren't going to toothpick themselves.

[sweet plume]

Like writers were being allowed to do what they want among other things, which caused a lot of issues

[plain cosmos]

I may return if I haven't gone too cross-eyed.

[sweet plume]

But yeah we have|| a New Daedric Prince Now.||

[plain cosmos]

At least temporarily. We may find out if a certain someone can kill something like that.

[sweet plume]

||Honestly I was shocked, but she’s Mora’s opposite, she can Alter Fate.||

[plain cosmos]

I fully expected there to be more. So I wasn't that shocked to learn.

Their particular place in things is interesting though.

[sweet plume]

I mean this was an end of Part 1 reveal, so basically we have to wait for Part 2 or possibly Part 3 to learn more

Which means Next Year or the Year After

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. So we're likely to get more details, and a possible resolution to the whole thing that renders it mostly academic.

[sweet plume]

Right now Chapter 8 is up in the air as to where it could take place

Where as Chapter 6 literally named dropped the Peninsula on two separate occasions and Chapter 3 mentioned Skyrim at times, we got nothing like that this chap, and next year is Year 10

[plain cosmos]

Yeah

[sweet plume]

I don’t expect Hammerfell though.

[plain cosmos]

If I had to guess, they're laying off Hammerfell largely so they don't dip into story potential for TES6

That's a pretty baseless guess though

[sweet plume]

That’s what I am thinking, although some think that’s ridiculous for them to do, imo it’s better to wait, because in the case of Base Game ESO, Eastern Skyrim lacks what makes Western Skyrim feel like Mainline Game Skyrim.

Even though we did get Alik’r, Craglorn, Lower half of Bangkorai and Hew’s Bane

[plain cosmos]

It'd also important to remember... TES games contain dozens of stories. So there could be a lot of ground to cover there, and they just don't want to risk rehashing anything in relatively rapid succession

[sweet plume]

Yeah of course, I am fine with waiting for Hammerfell before a Hammerfell expansion though.

[plain cosmos]

As am i

Especially given that waiting increases the time available for someone to notice my ranting, and invite me to write for Bethesda 😛

[pastel sorrel]

The most important thing I want to say is that you and your design group don’t need the endorsement or validation from a loremaster, current or emeritus, to add to the lore of the Elder Scrolls. As long as you do your homework (and you do), and follow the rule of subjectivity, anything you decide to articulate is legitimate and within the Elder Scrolls approach to mythohistory, which embraces contributions from all different points of view. Canon is a figment; in the Elder Scrolls, if it seems right, it is right.```

From Lawrence Schick. MK is not alone in holding a more open view of the canon.

The current loremaster has echoed similar views in a recent interview.

[brisk perch]

Essentially almost anything can be canon, or be deuterocanon, and deuterocanon has some merit in discussion on canon. Fan theories in-universe help define much of the lore, so long as things remain civil, age appropriate, and follow the discord rules pretty much all of it is welcome to be discussed.

[plain cosmos]

And I also fundimentally disagree with Schtick.

Of you dismiss Canon, you throw out the very idea of intellectual discourse. You undermine the foundational data which is required to make insightful arguments and engage in discussion.

And honestly, that mentality has significantly eroded the quality of TES Lore discourse over the last several years, to the point where most online forums are little more than fanfic factories with the academic value of a degree in basket weaving.

Far too often, people pursue what they want to be true, rather than what the evidence indicates, and that is a fundamentally flawed approach to any sort of evaluative position.

That's how you end up with nonsense like :

The Nerevarine is a choice

The Green Pact is more than a religion

Morality applies to Daedra

Azura is a selfish god

Akatosh and Auriel are different entities.

[plush zinc]

you can dismiss eso if you only care about the actual mainline games and the stories setup there

[plain cosmos]

Poppycock

Using that lack of logic, you could just ignore Two Towers if you only care about Fellowship of the Ring and Return of the King.

Whether you LIKE it or not, you have to account for new information. Doing anything else is simply being intellectually dishonest.

I mean, Vehk knows I don't like Oblivion. It's not like I can just pretend the Dark Brotherhood rewrite never happened, or that Mamnimarco's return wasn't a clown show.

[sweet plume]

I mean you can just imagine it happened in a cooler way

[plush zinc]

logically, since its a prequel made after the fact, i can completely ignore it and view lore from a point of having been as it was from when the final skyrim dlc released

i find it much more interesting to view lore in sections anyways, since whats added in a certain game usually informs the greater story or expands the world in a new way

[sweet plume]

Except ignoring it imo is just trying to deny it’s place in the overall bigger world.

Not only that but Bethesda has made spinoff’s like Elder Scrolls Blades long after Skyrim where it’s story is before Skyrim

[plain cosmos]

Retroactive continuity is a thing. And operating under the assumption that it's irrelevant is just silly

[plush zinc]

each to their own honestly

[sweet plume]

Elder Scrolls Games with Mainline Titles are always moving forward, that’s how it works, but Bethesda and co have done spin off’s where they added stories between the years.

[plush zinc]

literally this is entirely personal you arent gonna sway me on this lads, sorry

[plain cosmos]

If you want to ignore ESO, that's fine. But expect to be called out for it every time a discussion brings up something in ESO.

[plush zinc]

i look forward to ignoring those callouts lol

[sweet plume]

It’s not a matter of being personal, just denying Lore from a game because it’s a prequel is essentially living in denial that the mainline games aren’t the only one canon

I mean Elder Scrolls: Redguard was made by Bethesda and it’s also in the past in the 2nd Era.

[plush zinc]

whatever you say

[plain cosmos]

It's like ignoring Cerutti just because it was discovered after the Clovis Culture, and trying to argue that Clovis was the first hominin group in the Americas.

[sweet plume]

Your gonna ignore Redguard to?

[plush zinc]

i havent read anything about redguard yet so ill let you know

[plain cosmos]

Subjectivity is permissible in interpretation, not in the body of information it's self.

[sweet plume]

When this Series began it started in the 3rd Era, Redguard was made later, a spinoff set in the 2nd Era

[plush zinc]

unless you follow kirkbride's logic

[sweet plume]

The point is whether it’s Bethesda or Zenimax, Retroactive Continuity in the games are a thing.

[plain cosmos]

Thats not logic

[plush zinc]

whatever you say lol

im going to be honest this is less about lore and continuity and how much the writing in eso sucks

[sweet plume]

XD

[plush zinc]

thats the reason i chose to just focus on the stuff i enjoy, i think thats more satisfying

[plain cosmos]

The writing in ESO is generally flat out better than anything BGS has done in 20 yeard

[sweet plume]

ESO has done more in 10 Years than Bethesda in 20

That’s just a flat out fact

[sweet plume]

Jinx

[plush zinc]

im more interested in what kirkbride intended for the history of the world, and less so in what someone after did to those ideas

call me a purist but eh

[sweet plume]

Kirkbride is really not everything, his Ideas were only good through a filter

[plain cosmos]

You aren't a purist. Your a fanatic.

Because Kirkbride wasn't even singularly responsible for Morrowind era TES.

[plush zinc]

taking it a bit far but hey

[plush zinc]

he's responsible for the most interesting bits lol

[plain cosmos]

He isn't, really

Hell, the 'most interesting bit' of Morrowind that people continue to cling to wasn't even him

[sweet plume]

Again if he had his way entirely the series really would have devolved into complete nonsense

[plain cosmos]

Kuhlmann is the one who wanted to make it uncertain whether or not you were the Nerevarine.

[plush zinc]

some of us kind of dig that

his stories are much more interesting to thematically view than a lot of the newer stuff too, like his multiple creation stories that ive been reading about

[sweet plume]

Kirkbride brought in some cool things but again, his ideas unfiltered is just bad

[plain cosmos]

He really could tend to be like a kid in a candy store

Distracted by every new idea of theme, without any thought as to how they interact or engagr

[sweet plume]

Remember when Vince Russo was brought in from WWE to WCW? Everyone thought he was this amazing writer that made WWE Successful, see that was true to an extent, but the moment he was given free reign, that company sank.

[plush zinc]

was vince russo a member of the ebonheart pact i dont recall

[sweet plume]

While I disagree about The Dark Brotherhood Rewrite, because imo from what I read about them in Morrowind, there was nothing more to them aside from splitting off from the Morag Tong, Mannimarco though was just bad.

[plain cosmos]

My god, it was so GOOFY

[sweet plume]

What, your gonna say The Ebonheart Pact makes no sense either?

[plain cosmos]

Like... Way to strip Mannimarco of every bit of menace... At least ESO made him intimidating again

[plush zinc]

man take a joke dude. this is casual conversation

[sweet plume]

Hence why I asked.

[sweet plume]

His Presentation left a lot to be desired

[plain cosmos]

But yeah... Anyone read Ready Player One? Or seen the movie, that's useful enough for this reference

[sweet plume]

Never seen the movie, thought about it at times

[plain cosmos]

Well, James Halliday is the figurehead that everyone credits with creating the VR network of the Oasis.

He was the visionary, the creative head, and the one who gets all the praise for his brilliance.

But his friend and business partner, Ogden Morrow, is the one who actually took Halliday's ideas and made them work, creating a cohesive system that people could engage with and enjoy.

Kirkbride is Halliday. And he needs a Morrow to distill his ideas into something usable.

[sweet plume]

George Lucas is another example I’d say, Star Wars was a Team Effort on the Original Trilogy and Lucas didn’t have Free Reign until The Prequels

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. And, well...

[sweet plume]

The Prequels First Two Movies really suffered the worst of it

[plain cosmos]

The best idea in the Prequels was Medichlorians, which Lucas had no idea what to actually do with beyond using them as a plot device

[sweet plume]

Oh that’s controversial actually, Midichlorians

[plain cosmos]

What could have been used to reflect the clinical self assurance and arrogance of the Jedi Order, was just... A single plot beat to get Anikin to the forefront

[sweet plume]

I think because people wanted the Force to stay Mysterious and only some people were gifted it’s powers.

Adding Science to the Force for many was considered a bad idea

[plain cosmos]

And they did flip back to that. But the Midichlorians were an inclusion that could have very easily been used to represent the decay and lack of faith the Jedi had succumbed to

[sweet plume]

Obi-Wan’s Count is actually pretty low

Which says a lot in retrospect because it means even those with a low counts are destined to become great masters

But enough of Star Wars for now, this is Elder Scrolls.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed

Overall point being, ideas for the sake of ideas is no better than constantly just staying in the tried and tested path

[sweet plume]

I just realized with ESO we’ll be able to see Winterhold before it’s collapse

[plain cosmos]

Oooh, that could be fun

[brisk perch]

Heavily hinted by a few lines in Necrom chapter, and maybe how they introduce Spellcrafting if it works out well.

[plain cosmos]

Woof. Spell crafting is a whole other barrel of rancid fish.

But that's a conversation more for the other channel, and not lore.

[sweet plume]

It was something that was originally gonna be in the game at launch from what I hear and it was cut, honestly Spellcrafting I don’t think would even work for an MMO when it comes to Player Balance.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah... I have a lot of problems with it in previous games, but I'm doubly skeptical of it in an MMO setting

But I'll be real. I am in no condition to have a thoughtful discussion about the concept and mechanic at this hour on a Saturday

[topaz dome]

I agree. Let's move this to #elder-scrolls-general-chat

[high forge]

Sword singers not included, the Companions of Jorrvaskr are the best warriors in the history of Tamriel.

Orcs are great too, but they are a race of people, not a clan of warriors.

Prove me wrong.

[proven moss]

Their mortal enemies are renamed bandits with silver weapons
wow that was easy!

[high forge]

Well maybe those guys are tough too.

But also, look at the numbers. The silver hand are a massive organization. The Companions are just a small band of warriors.

[proven moss]

Honestly Skyrim did the Silver Hand dirty. We don't really have any lore on them but Skyrim wasn't it

[sharp lantern]

I mean, it's always kind of difficult to compare two based off of just who they are. The Companions are definitely good warriors, but what makes you so sure they're superior to Buoyant Armigers? Or the Blades? Or Almalexia's Her Hands?

[proven moss]

As for the Companions, do we have any real lore about them being better than say... the Fighter's Guild?

Ignoring Ysgramor's Companions, as we're talking about the Whiterun guild here

[sharp lantern]

I like the theory that the Silver Hand are former Companions who left when they found out about the werewolf business - hence their whole obsession with Wuuthrad.

[high forge]

Yes.

The two leaders, Skjor and Kodlak, fought off fifty Orc berserkers at once and won.

[sharp lantern]

As for the Fighter's Guild, I mean they used to be situated in Skyrim and they aren't anymore so I think that kind of figures that the Companions were a better pick for Skyrim's residences.

[high forge]

I haven't done the Fighters Guild questline yet. But I will some day. I would prefer not to talk about them until I beat the questline.

My current Oblivion character is an Arena fighter and Thieves Guild boss, currently.

[plain cosmos]

More likely, they were so piss dunk they THOUGHT it was 50 Berserkers. When in reality, it was a stiff wind and some shrubbery

Warriors in general are grossly overrated, especially outside of very small engagements.

Give me a single Legion, over 50,000 warriors.

Or, 200,000... Depending on who you ask

[high forge]

Without warriors, who would be our front line troops?

Look, let's be real. These warrior, thief, mage tropes are absolute BS. In reality, all warriors and soldiers throughout the world and throughout history had to learn all skills. Roman legionaires for instance had to learn archery. As well as using a sling and throwing a javelin.

Spartan Hoplites were experts at stealth. And they were heavy infantry troops.

The only reason why I label warriors as warriors in this context is to signify that these are strong men with melee weapons who fight directly without any special magic or thief tricks. They trade punches or bashes.

And by those standards, the Companions have got to be the best. Sword Singers not included.

Orcs are high up there too, but that's a race of people. Not a clan of warriors.

[plain cosmos]

Generally, there is a line drawn between Warrior, and Soldier.

[sharp lantern]

A good warrior and a good soldier are not necessarily the same thing.

Relevance; Imperials are noted as being individually weak but are also noted as making some of the best soldiers.

[high forge]

Lots of typos there. Gonna make corrections.

[plain cosmos]

Warriors tend to follow a particular cultural ethos that glorifies martial prowess and single combat.

Usually, Warriors make terrible soldiers. One on one, or in small groups, Warriors and their individual skill often come out on top.

On scale, however, Soldiers almost always win.

[high forge]

Edited above. Please read again. Lots of typos.

[plain cosmos]

Even with the typos, I got the gist of what you were saying.

And I'm saying that a Warrior, and a Soldier, are very different things, at their core.

Warriors make terrible frontline troops. But decent skirmishers and raiders.

There always comes a point where Warrior Cultures need to transition into Militarist Cultures though. Or they simply stop advancing.

[high forge]

Do you really think so?

Warriors in real life exist in America. I'm one of them. We lift weights and compete in MMA... Even though some of us dont have the mental stability needed to be a proper soldier.

And we thrive. We advance. We can do jobs, take on certain hobbies, things like that.

Look at Musashi Miyamoto. A true loner-warrior but the man made a huge impact in literature with his book.

[plain cosmos]

America isn't a Warrior Culture, though.

It's not even really a Militarist Culture. Though... It skirts that line sometimes.

[sharp lantern]

I don't think you can really hold medieval soldiers to the same standards as modern soldiers either.

[plain cosmos]

No though Medieval Professional Soldiers vastly outclassed the 'Warriors' of the same period. At least in any sizable engagement.

[high forge]

America is a land full of subcultures. I mean, just go to any Crunch gym or Gold's gym in an afternoon. There is the subculture of bodybuilding and powerlifting happening there.

[plain cosmos]

Well, yes, but that's getting into very different things.

A Warrior Culture would be something like the Klingons from Star Trek, or the Zulu. A wider culture where every individual of a particular class or sex are expected to prove their martial prowess.

The Samurai of Shogunate Japan would be a Warrior Subculture, which is more what you are discribing. Though even then, the wider Japanese culture was such that the majority of labour and persons, and even the military levies, were not from that group.

[high forge]

Hmmm....

[sharp lantern]

To get back on topic, what exactly is it about the Companions that convinces you that they are the greatest warriors on Tamriel to begin with?

[high forge]

Can't we all just simplify things be labeling both warriors and soldiers as "warriors"? I'd call them "fighters" but that word is associated with Tamriel's Fighters Guild.

[high forge]

The competence of the leaders. Skjor and Kodlak fought off fifty or more hostile Orcs by themselves. I don't consider that pure strength, but being able to win that fight shows a ton of endurance.

That's like a professional mixed martial artist defeating ten opponents in ten matches in one night. That's the real world equivalent. Very impressive.

And on top of that... Their smallness in number allows the veteran fighters like Vilkas to easily teach the new recruits how to fight.

[sharp lantern]

Yet Skjor was killed by a group of Silver Hand? *pardon, not captured, he charged inside on his own...

And so was Kodlak?

Are the Silver Hand the strongest warriors in Tamriel?

[plain cosmos]

Which lends creedance to the whole 'piss drunk' thing

[sharp lantern]

I'm not saying that they aren't good warriors, because they definitely are, otherwise their business model would've failed, but to say they are the best? That's a bold statement.

And if numbers is the thing that we should go off of to determine skill, the Welkynars of Cloudrest only number four at any time - even fewer than the Companions.

And unlike the Companions, their training takes years.

[high forge]

Okay listen buddy... Aside from the sword singers, who can match up against them? Come on.

I'd argue Orc chieftains, but again, that's not a band of warriors. That's a race of people.

I can maybe say Orc legionaires in general and that would be better, since Orcs are prized as the best Frontline troops in the empire. Yeah, we can do that. But aside from those, who? Kodlak and Skjor fought off several Orc non-chiefs by themselves and won.

Give me a group of warriors. What. Fighters Guild? Come on.

[sharp lantern]

I just told you who matched up against them - some Silver Hand.

[plain cosmos]

Swordsingers are off the table. Those lot are basically Tongues, and are just Sword Mages

[blissful arch]

"Okay listen buddy..." 👀 👀 👀

[sharp lantern]

And idk about you, but I'm not of the belief that the Silver Hand are the strongest warriors in Tamriel so 🤷

[high forge]

The silver hand are a massive number fighting a small group of warriors. They were all over Skyrim. Just the ones in that first Silver Hand fortress were a lot.

[sharp lantern]

They weren't 50 Orcs though.

I seriously think that the Welkynars are better warriors than the Companions though.

[high forge]

Well maybe they are great warriors.

There's also the issue of Kodlak maybe getting ambushed in the mead hall.

[plain cosmos]

The Companions were also defending a confined location.

Which, typically, requires far fewer hands

[high forge]

@sharp lantern

I'll consider researching about those Welkynars then. Thanks.

[plain cosmos]

Redguard are also supposedly the most naturally gifted Warriors. And while I still view Racials as inherently flawed, borderline nonsensical ideas at their most benign.. if that were the case you'd expect them to have the best Warriors in Tamriel

[high forge]

They do. The Ansei.

Sword Singers.

[plain cosmos]

Again, Sword Singers are something else.

They are more like Nord Tongues, than conventional Warriors

[blissful arch]

I think the Legion are the greatest.
No glamor. No best-of. Just soldiers serving the Emperor.

[plain cosmos]

And getting the job done.

[glacial scarab]

I think they're the only ones I can recall off the top of my head with big old fantasy mounts.
https://images.uesp.net/e/ee/ON-creature-Darremalatu_03.jpg

In old Lore Imperials used to have Dragon Mounts due to Akaviri influence as the Dragoons that was hinted in Battlespire but later lore changed things.

[plain cosmos]

Um. Sir. That is an Age of Sigmar model.

Which, not gonna lie. TES could use a lot more AoS, and a lot less LotR and GoT.

[brisk perch]

We do not have gryphons as mounts in ESO due to them being difficult to tame and train, and practical reasons due to engine restrictions and the ceilings of many places not actually existing but just being illusions.
That is from Cloudrest, a trial (raid) in ESO and major city at the time of Summerset, where they have much larger gryphons than most of the ones you'd find in the wild.
City was taken over by a Sload at the time.

[glacial scarab]

Also well ESO isn't WoW so you're not running across a continent in one world space so a flying mount while it could work just doesn't fit with ESOs world design. Never mind scale isn't consisent.

[brisk perch]

The zones closest to scale are probably the Systres Isles. It's hard to make games to scale with all the other towns and sights that people need to include.

[vapid patio]

Perhaps this is a stupid question but how many times do we actually see and interact with an elder scroll in games?

[blissful arch]

The only stupid questions are the ones you don't asked because you think they're stupid questions.

You get one in Oblivion ||in the Thieves Guild. You steal that bad boy.||
You collect what, two?, in Skyrim. I do not remember dealing with one in Morrowind.

[sweet plume]

Also The Elder Scrolls Online.

[blissful arch]

I know nothing about ESO. I got for free recently. Maybe I should drop Skyrim and give ol' ESO a go finally.

[sweet plume]

There is a lot of Base Game content before ever touching DLC, so ultimately you’ll find out if you like it or not.

[topaz dome]

You like Morrowind so you might enjoy seeing Vvardenfell as it was back in the 2nd Era.

[blissful arch]

I have always wanted to visit Black Marsh. I've wanted a mainline game there forever.

[split pond]

What do the Vigilants of Stendarr think of the Daedra-worshipping Khajiit, Dunmer, and Orcs?

[slender latch]

There are two and a half zones in black marsh you may enjoy.

[blissful arch]

Daedra worship is verboten and it's practitioners abominations.

[sweet plume]

Shadowfen, Murkmire and Half of Blackwood.

[blissful arch]

Are there Hist trees?

[sweet plume]

Yup

[blissful arch]

I've always wanted to see teh Hist.

[slender latch]

The hist do feature prominently in their zones.

[split pond]

Have there been cases of Vigilants massacring Orc strongholds?

[glacial scarab]

Unknown because the Vigilants have very little lore to them. They have zero interactions with Orc Strongholds

[split pond]

Fair, hopefully ESO or ES 6 will have more lore in the future.

[restive hedge]

It is still so confusing to me that how the empire started and how does Talos fit in it. Is the Empire of Nord origin? If Talos was a nord then why didnt Skyrim become the capital?

[sweet plume]

https://tenor.com/view/jontron-wow-this-is-fascinating-reading-book-books-gif-21958704

Literally me with every new game and ESO Chapter.

[glacial scarab]

Emperor Zero whose name I can remember but not spell correctly (and who Tiber/Talos served as a General) started by uniting Colovia which at that time of the lore Falkreath was considered before going for Nibenay. This doesn't get much information but most of the Tiber wars don't outside of Hammerfell due to the game Redguard.

Talos/Tiber took the Throne after Emperor Zero (he never was actually an Emperor so I used the Nibenese Cult name for him) was assassinated so Talos at most had Cyrodiil and Falkreath before he continued what would be known as the Tiber Wars as Emperor.

[sweet plume]

I am an Elder Scrolls Scholar at heart.

[restive hedge]

Well I mean that even though it is central, then that's almost never the reason for countries to choose capital. Would have been more logical to me that if Talos was a nord then Skyrim would have been the capital

You said it's not Earth and then proceeded to use reasons to choose a capital based on why one would also choose one IRL

[plain cosmos]

Well... I mean, Morrowind isn't. In fact, Vardenfell was generally the least developed frontier of Morrowind, having been largely restricted from settlement for centuries.

[ember mountain]

Talos is complicated due to the fact there is an Imperial account and an unofficial account. Talos came into existence after the Warp in the West; he didn’t exist prior, but as a consequence he existed throughout history as far as most citizens of Tamriel are concerned. He might be the amalgamation of three people when Tiber Septim wanted to power the Numidium.

It deals with a lot of concepts tied to Elder Scrolls lore to get the backstory (including all three who became Talos the deity possibly being a Shezzarine). It’s a bit more complicated than just ‘Talos is Tiber Septim’ because he likely isn’t just him.

[shell basin]

Although if there was a one person behind it... Hjalti Early-Beard (according to the Arcturian Heresy, a Nord in Alcaire, Bretony, High Rock), seems to have been the actual person who originally gained the "Talos / Stormcrown" nickname, during or after the Battle of Old Hroldan: certainly the Ghost of Old Hroldan Inn, apparently someone who knew him in life, knew him by that name, before he took his Cyrodiilic Imperial monicker of Tiber Septim.

Falkreath was at the time under dispute between Skyrim to the northeast, Colovia to the south, and The Reach to the west, with The Reach being the enemy that Skyrim and Colovia could agree on (and The Reach itself being under perpetual dispute between Skyrim, High Rock and its own independence movement)...

The claim that he came from Atmora can be regarded as "spurious, but backed by divine power to alter history", given that Atmora had frozen well over a thousand years before, and the last ship to come from there contained only a few evacuating survivors, more than half of whom didn't even survive to make landfall on the north of Tamriel.

Incidentally, the so-called Emperor Zero, whom Talos/Septim originally served under - Cuhlecain... his name sounds suspiciously Reach, not Colovian or Nordic, which implies that he may have been a Reach emigrant or exile fighting under Colovian banners to subdue his own people...

[glacial scarab]

Game wise yes Talos came after TES2 but the Warp of the West did not do anything for Talos that's just a change in the lore between the games.
The Warp in the West only affected the endings of TES2 it did not make a god out of nowhere.

[glacial scarab]

I'd note even in PGE1 which was written when TIber was alive that Tiber being a Nord was a disputed claim so Hjalti Early-Beard could've been another of Tiber's taken names like Tiber Septim.

[plain cosmos]

It's worth noting, Hjalti is NEVER stated in the Heresy to be a Nord.

That is an inference based only on the name

[proven moss]

Yep. Given the various hints and claims of Tiber being a Breton, probably the most common theory is that Hjalti Early-beard was the child of a Nord father and a Breton mother.

Conveniently explains both the name and the Breton claims

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Though it's also possible it's another moniker, or a hereditary name from a Nordic lineage an indeterminate period before.

It's a peculiar name for a Breton, sure, but it alone isn't proof of anything.

[ember mountain]

Deification was possible. The Warp in the West led to The King of Worms becoming the God of Worms.

[glacial scarab]

Pretty sure that was Numidium

Warp of the West just made all endings happen

[ember mountain]

The use of it was what led to it.

[glacial scarab]

The use of it by Tiber was to delete people not make himself a god as the Underking stopped it then.

The Warp in the West did not make Talos a god. It's just a change between the games like Reguard/TES3s Jungle Cyrodiil existing and then disappearing.

[plain cosmos]

There is a long running fan theory that the Warp in the West made Talos a god.

Though in reality, there's not any actual evidence to support it

[ember mountain]

That change was said to have been done by Tiber Septim based on the use of Kirkbride’s explanation via Many Headed Talos in Skyrim.

With regard to the change of Cyrodiil.

[plain cosmos]

A change which has been disputed in more official resources.

[ember mountain]

You can’t get more official than the literal game.

[plain cosmos]

Only pieces of The Many Headed Talos appear in game, through Hiemskier's dialogue.

Meanwhile, ESO presents two alternative explanations.

[ember mountain]

ESO has inconsistencies with lore in a lot of areas. That’s nothing new.

[plain cosmos]

Both of which are presented in full, rather than out of the mouth of a single religious fanatic.

[glacial scarab]

Like every game. Lore is fluid not concete

[plain cosmos]

ESO is more consistent with the lore than anything BGS has ever made. Dismissing it in favour of a text that has literally never appeared in its entirety in any game is just silly

[ember mountain]

It was used as an explanation at the end of the day.

[plain cosmos]

It was not.

[ember mountain]

That’s highly debatable.

[plain cosmos]

Hiemskier doesn't even attribute it to a change in Cyrodiil, and his preaching doesn't mention Cyrodiil at all.

[ember mountain]

You not liking that it was used as an explanation doesn’t change that they used it as such. I’m not looking to debate lore on the basis of cherrypicking what one likes and dislikes.

[plain cosmos]

It is factually accurate. Whether you like ESO or not is irrelevant. That it has been more consistent with established lore is a simple fact.

And yet, you choose to just dismiss ESO because you don't like it

[ember mountain]

It’s information extrapolated from what Kirkbride used as the explanation for the change.

[plain cosmos]

One writer amongst many. Kirkbride's word is not law

[ember mountain]

It hasn’t even been consistent with its own lore at times.

[glacial scarab]

Kirkbride used it as an explanation but TES did not

[ember mountain]

He wasn’t the one who put it in Skyrim.

[plain cosmos]

And Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have been? Don't kid yourself.

[ember mountain]

Then don’t pretend it’s been consistent when it hasn’t been.

[plain cosmos]

I said it's been MORE consistent

It's not a binary thing, it's a scale..

[ember mountain]

It can’t be when it’s just as inconsistent, if not moreso, than the other games.

[plain cosmos]

More to the point than arguing the specifics of facts with a Kirkbride fan, we now have 3 possible explanations for Cyrodiil.

Talos breathing in royalty is not the only one anymore, and is probably the lamest really.

[ember mountain]

Pointing out Skyrim used his explanation is me pointing out a fact of the game.

I don’t agree with everything he writes.

[plain cosmos]

No, Skyrim did not. It had a single NPC reference a text which presents it as an explanation.

[glacial scarab]

They didn't use it as an explanation though. They used it for a Priest preaching nothing more.

[plain cosmos]

Skyrim in no way adopted it AS the explanation.

[cinder valley]

OK everyone, please remember to be polite to eachother

[sweet plume]

Ah, I missed a discussion regarding ESO, well it looked entertaining.

Again not surprised another dismisses ESO, shame honesty but what can ya do?

[sweet plume]

I have a feeling being more consistent is due to it being a prequel and having to impress each year.

Like once you send out dlc and it’s story that’s it.

And you only have a year or so to prepare it to, so it requires more thought and such.

[shell basin]

Of course there are inconsistencies in ESO too even with itself. Like its various versions of the Great Siege of Orsinium. Initially, a lot of the "history" of that seems to have come from a lorebook which was written as a poem... Which ends up having a number of contradictions with other "known history", in particular various dates that are attested in other lorebooks: and that's even before you get to a certain sidequest in Orsinium DLC, Wrothgar province, which reveals a "real truth" about two particular heroes (Redguard and Orc) that has been conveniently omitted from Breton-written histories of the event.

So if King Golkarr of Orsinium died when the poem says he died, then he wasn't killed by King Joile and Gaiden Shinji. And if they did kill him, then he must have died ten years earlier and in a different place to where the poem puts it. But the Bretons had plenty of reasons to lie, because of needing to obscure the fate of Gaiden Shinji and Baloth Bloodtusk...

||Murdered by Breton archers while fighting a supposedly honourable duel that was supposed to decide the fate of Orsinium in 1E 970, after the fall of the second of its three great gates. And this Breton poem erases the event by erasing not only the duel but Baloth himself from history entirely, and completely omitting Shinji's death, by naming Shinji - and King Joile of Daggerfall - present, a decade later, to slay King Golkarr of Orsinium in his own temple in 1E 980 after the destruction of Orsinium's third and last gate: when in actual fact, Joile had already betrayed the Redguard allies - turning on them, believing the Orcs to be already beaten - and himself been defeated and slain by Malela Leki - at Bangkorai Pass in 1E 973, three years after Baloth and Shinji died in the duel, and seven years before the final sacking of Orsinium. The dates of Orsinium's destruction, and Joile's betrayal, being attested in other books, contradicting the poem even before you do the sidequest.||

[sweet plume]

The Unreliable Narrator

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Which is why you inherently can't take any statement by anyone in universe as explicit fact.

For instance, Hiemskier's proselytising isn't a direct statement that Talos changed Cyrodiil. It is an in-universe theological explanation for an uncertain event.

Two OTHER in-universe explanations also exist.

A: it never WAS a jungle and that is a transcription error by ancient scribes that was just perpetuated by later writers.

B: White Gold Tower (and all Towers in fact) acts as a magical terraformer which shapes the landscape in accordance with the preferences of its current 'masters'.

[glacial scarab]

Reminds me that some people take some sources as 100% accurate at times when things absolutely will be pushing agendas.

Like how the The Real Barenziah lies to you about TES1 and 2 as Barenziah wasn't involved with Ria Silmane and having the wrong characterization of Eadwyre.

[sweet plume]

I believe it was stated there are tiers of what end up being canon, I believe it’s been stated what you see is the main truth of what the event or such is, while writing regarding it can be seen as secondhand truth.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Though them you also need to account for different interpretations of what you see (did the CoC Mantle Sheo?) As well as issues arising from the ever-problematic Alternate Endings narrative (like the Civil War).

Either way, while Canon is important in establishing a body of material to consider, it doesn't dictate the interpretation OF that material

At least not in TES.

[plain cosmos]

Some settings very much rely on the Word of God approach to worldbuilding and storytelling. D&d does this to an extent, though I think Star Wars is a stronger example of it.

TES on the other hand leans very heavy on the Unreliable Narrator method of storytelling, filtering everything through a subjective in-universe lense instead of a clinical or objective one.

[sweet plume]

I think Fallout may be incorporating it as well to a degree, I also believe Starfield will do the same.

The Unreliable Narrator I mean, not just word of god on every text.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah

[sweet plume]

Example being in 76 we learn that Roger Maxson was never xenophobic and distrustful of outsiders as earlier lore led us to believe, in fact it goes back to a cut audio tape from Fallout 1 where Maxson 2 refers to his Father as a Fool for trusting in outsiders or wanting the Brotherhood to help them. It leads me to believe that the Elders lied about who Maxson was to future Generations so the Brotherhood would become what they wanted it to be and not what Maxson envisioned it could be.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah

Though, don't tell a good chunk of the Fallout lore community that...

Specific to TES of course, is the Tribunal. In-universe, people still don't actually know what happened to them.

Leading to different interpretations amongst the New Temple.

[sweet plume]

I don’t bother to honestly, people take things at face value to much, which sucks because unreliable narrator is a great usage of how our real world works, but unfortunately not everyone will understand that.

[sweet plume]

When it comes to Elder Scrolls a bunch of fans do not actually know about UN being ingrained into the series, so I doubt a lot of Fallout Fans would get that idea either, or hell once Starfield comes out it will probably follow a similar route.

[sweet plume]

For myself I didn’t learn about it until last year.

And I found it really fascinating from a real world perspective

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. As an Anthropologist academically, I find it adds a very plausible and natural dynamic to the setting, it's peoples and their distinct world views, even though I do tend to loathe the fact that it doesn't seem like there IS an explanation for a lot of it.

By and large, they haven't pushed it so far as to test that threshold very much though. It mostly comes up in relation to Magic and how it works.

[shell basin]

And then you get things where player-canon can give you alternate endings - and sometimes you get the "all of these happened at once, deal with it" canon-confusion of Daggerfall, other times you get treated as if a single event was the actual canon one, and the other possibilities are alternate-timelines.

For an example of the latter, see the sacrifice at the end of ESO's official, now-too-well-buried Main Questline. Officially, the player has three options at the time, but there's one which seems to be taken far more often than the rest: equally officially, that one seems to be the "canon" option in that future DLC content actually has the other two possibles as still actually alive, whereas the "canon" sacrifice only comes back once, and that as a ghost with two lines to say.

Or cases where there is an "unresolved dichotomy", such as the end of the Mages Guild quest in TES3 Morrowind. Where, Archmage Trebonius could be pushed aside peacefully by hearing word from the Empire to step aside and let the player join him as a co-Archmage, or he could be challenged for his job in the Arena and killed in a formal duel - depending on which of the Mages Guild quest givers you talk to, when you're eligible for the promotion. So when I wrote the lore article for UESP, I presented the two alternative versions as being told by the two rival Guild leaders, with Skink-in-Trees-Shade peddling the "official" line that Trebonius stepped into voluntary retirement and Edwinna Elbert peddling the "alternative" version that he refused to go quietly.

In either case... Trebonius could give the player a quest to murder all the Telvanni lords. Now we know that Neloth canonically survives (Skyrim) and Gothren does not (all versions of whether the player is Telvanni or not require his death, he cannot be persuaded, bribed or intimidated), but Aryon has to live if the player is to become Hortator, and Therana and Dratha may or may not - though there is a post-Dagoth Grandmaster Writ for Therana (signed, presumably, by every other Telvanni magister.) So, in my head at least, I'm saying "Trebonius gave the player that quest, but subsequently opted for the duel ending to the Mages Guild quest line, meaning that after his death, the assassination order he had given out was void, and this is why Master Neloth was spared".

[sweet plume]

I think it was very much obvious he’s the canon sacrifice

Even though two other options exist it’s clear his role ultimately ends in the Main Story of the Base Game

[shell basin]

And for the murder of the Ienith brothers, for which both the Thieves Guild and Morag Tong give you a quest for... I presented that as a thing that Definitely Happened, with both criminal organisations claiming credit for the deed, though it was not clear who had paid the Morags for the job, whereas the Thieves Guild had ordered the hit on their own initiative, and a clever bounty hunter had managed to collect the bounty from both organisations.

Incidentally there is evidence that there was once a Grandmaster Writ to murder Master Neloth, but this was cut from the game. I'm guessing the explanation for this is that, prosaically, it was transferred to Therana halfway through the design stage, even if there were no plans yet to spare Neloth for future use in Skyrim.

[sweet plume]

I realized that Karstaag is likely alive in ESO on Solsthiem.

He was the only Giant there that I heard about so maybe he lives a very long time?

[shell basin]

Solstheim is a zone that has not yet appeared in ESO.

[sweet plume]

That it does, which is perfect for because on the lore Page there is nothing to be said majorly during the 2nd Era.

[split pond]

What's Jyggalag doing these days?

We haven't heard from him ever since he got separated from Sheogorath. His sword drove Thoron in Skyrim insane in Saints and Seducers, but that's as far as I know.

[sudden crown]

I think he's still wondering the voids of the Oblivion realms, as he said before

[split pond]

Hum. This looks like a great setting for a quest mod. A Knight of Order was sighted in Skyrim. Upon investigating, the Dragonborn follows the trail to Jyggalag, who will have different dialogue depending on whether the player has finished Mind of Madness.

[sudden crown]

Sounds cool!

[sweet plume]

Ya know what saddens me as someone who wants to see more Lore in Bethesda’s Series? That Fallout’s Online Prequel Fallout 76 is more or less limited to Appalachia and ESO tends to be more everywhere else.

[split pond]

I wish we could have convinced Alduin to attack the Thalmor first. Impossible I know, for more than a few reasons, but one can dream.

[plain cosmos]

Nah, Alduin had the right of it. Go after the worst people first.

Get the revisionist colonialists who glorify genocide and play up an underserved victim complex of the way.

[restive hedge]

Are vampires considered undead or rather are they technically dead?

Do they have a heartbeat? Can they have children?

[shadow rose]

They aren't really "undead", since you can be turned without dying.

You're alive, with a heartbeat (usually), but unnaturally alive.

[restive hedge]

So you don't die in the process of turning?

"Unnaturally alive"?

[shadow rose]

Like, lorewise, not all vampires have a heartbeat, but many do. Most thralls are reanimated through vampirism but they're basically just corpses.

[restive hedge]

I am often conflicted when thinking of playing a vampire that you'd have no purpose in life anymore other than feeding if you'd be dead

[shadow rose]

It's a mixed question and depends on how you were turned.

[restive hedge]

Like Volkihar vampires for example, Skyrim vampires

I find it hard to justify it to my character and also myself personally when you cant have children, dont feel the warmth of your loved one, cant taste the finest dishes and all you're "unnaturally alive" for is feeding and hiding from the society

[shadow rose]

Got me stumped there. Someone was once bitten by a Volkihar vampire, I think the Lord himself, and they ended up completely contracting vampirism, but later were cured. Not sure if that means they're still undead or if they're now just a normal person again.

[restive hedge]

And if you die as vampire, what will Coldharbor look like for you? Will you suffer there or are you like on Hircine's hunting grounds?

[shadow rose]

https://tenor.com/view/alright-hands-up-kosine-marcos-palacios-bets-mancave-gif-11303143

[restive hedge]

Do normal people know all this or is it kinda metagaming trying to figure out path for your character?

[shadow rose]

Idk anymore man, I'm just here for the sweetrolls...

[restive hedge]

Let me guess

Someone stole it?

[sweet plume]

Vampirism is more a disease then just straight up undead.

[plain cosmos]

They have always been detectable via Detect Undead, however

But they are definitely more complex Undead than the usual Daedra-in-a-meat-suit

[sweet plume]

I remember that yeah.

[plain cosmos]

There's a lot of weird grey areas and poorly explored concepts in TES though, so we don't even really know what 'Undead' means.

[sweet plume]

There is even so much to explore in the series in general that it takes longer to get to the ones people are waiting on.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed.

[sweet plume]

That’s why when I see a legitimate complaint, it’s hard not to agree, One of my friends wants the Divines to be fleshed out more in terms of religious practices, but is upset the Princes are getting more of that attention.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah. TES has a general issue of not having either long life, or volume of releases, to flesh out a lot of this stuff.

Like, D&D has had 60 years to refine it's settings, it's dynamics, and it's lore. TES has, at least effectively, only had 20odd years. And a fraction of the actual releases

[split pond]

What was the Shivering Isles called back when Jyggalag ruled it?

[sweet plume]

Who knows, but I hope when people and him were there they got Jyggy with it

[sweet plume]

I forgot one thing aside from Winterhold in it’s prime for ESO

The Dark Brotherhood Dawnstar Sanctuary most likely being active by that time.

[glacial scarab]

They can have Children for example in TES4.
I know the games treat them as undead

Heartbeats I cannot remember much on

Vampire strains are where things get more awkward. As game wise Strains end up being either Gaemplay related or just some PureBlooded Vampire thing.

[raw grail]

the closest we have is from "Dyus of Mytheria." we don't know what Mytheria is, but the theory i like is that it's Jygg's plane. i think it makes the most sense, personally

Soon after news about the dramatic events in the realm of the Mad God reached Cyrodiil, the Imperial Library requested permission to enter the Shivering Isles and inquire about the land's current state. The librarians were escorted to a hillside cave in which they were introduced to two of the Isles' most remarkable inhabitants: one white-haired and pale, wearing a drab grey robe, the other looking stern and serious, yet flamboyantly dressed.

Good day, gentlemen. It is an honor to converse with two respectable... entities such as yourselves. Would you perhaps like to introduce yourselves?

Dyus: My name is Dyus of Mytheria, former chamberlain to the Daedric Lord Jyggalag. Can we get on with this? Being around others grates on my nerves.
Haskill: I am Haskill. Chamberlain to the Lord Sheogorath. As you know very well. But don't worry, my duties encompass many activities more distasteful than answering pointless questions.
If our information is correct, you both are or were -my condolences, Dyus- chamberlains to Sheogorath or Jygallag [sic]. How did two fine gentlemen end up in this rather peculiar employment niche? What do your duties entail? Do you enjoy your profession?

Dyus: My employment, as you describe it, was at the whim of Lord Jyggalag. I served him because he willed it to be so. As for my former life, I no longer remember it. That may be because I had none, or it may be because Lord Jyggalag blessed me with forgetfulness. I am not even certain if Mytheria is a true place or not.
My duties were whatever Jyggalag commanded. At first I merely managed his library. However, the time came when he decided a chamberlain was needed to take care of all the mundane affairs of running a realm. That task fell to me. In short I did all those things Jyggalag found distasteful.
Did I enjoy my profession? As a librarian, I found a certain satisfaction in my work. As chamberlain, everyday I yearned for death. It was Lord Jyggalag’s whim that I would despise the role I was molded to fit. After my first few deaths, he grew impatient with me and stripped my mortality away. However, even he did not anticipate that I would survive his downfall. Lord Sheogorath could have ended me, but he chose to imprison me instead, in case he needed my services. Now I wait for the end of times, when I might be allowed to die.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Interview_With_Two_Denizens_of_the_Shivering_Isles

[restive hedge]

Are dragons less intelligent than humans? Basing it off humans being able to create Thu'Um that dragons can't comprehend or use

It makes them more rigid and less adaptable than humans

[pastel sorrel]

No

The reason Dragonrend works is because it's a concept fundamentally alien to their nature, not because they're somehow too unintelligent to understand that. I'm not sure how you made that leap.

They know what mortality is just fine. Dragonrend forces them to experience it, which is not a fun time for them.

[restive hedge]

But the concept is not alien if you learn it. Even more if yoh experience it

[pastel sorrel]

Again, they know what it is, but they're not themselves mortal

[restive hedge]

If they know what mortality is then why cant they use that shout

Humans are able to learn shouting with godlike powers through great meditation but dragons cant shout something in their own language

[pastel sorrel]

It's antithetical to their nature. They understand the concept, but to use the thu'um you have to be able to internalize that concept in a fundamental way that dragons simply cannot.

It'd be like a regular mortal experiencing infinity. It takes godly powers to be able to do that.

Mortals, being intrinsically mortal, can utilize Dragonrend like with other shouts

[restive hedge]

So when you use dragonrend on them then they know what it means to be mortal

[pastel sorrel]

Again, really not seeing how you made the leap of "dragons can't do this one thing due to clearly-explained metaphysical reasons = they must be less intelligent"

Dragonrend forces them to experience mortality, yes. It's a heavy shock to their beings and perspectives, and it beings them down to earth, literally.

[restive hedge]

Yeah because humans laern and adapt thing we did not previously understand, this is what makes us intelligent

[pastel sorrel]

There are many things humans cannot do that other animals can, that does not make us less intelligent.

[restive hedge]

So in a sense after having it used on them then they should be able to use it aswell

I'm not talking physical capeabilities but that of the mind

[pastel sorrel]

Okay? This isn't a mental deficit on their part, any more than humans not being able to perceive infinite concepts is. It's just not something they're built for.

[restive hedge]

Infinity itself is a human concept

[pastel sorrel]

as a concept. But perceiving all of an infinite concept or space or whatever is beyond us.

Being forced to experience mortality does not mean they have the necessary capabilities to then use it in a shout. They have to be able to reliably internalize that concept and express it through the thu'um, and that's not something they can do with such an intrinsically alien concept as mortality. They know what it is, but they can't internalize it and take it for granted like we do.

Just like we know what an infinite space is, but have no ability to actually perceive it all.

[restive hedge]

Sorry but what is infinite space?

[pastel sorrel]

Limitless, at least no physical limits. It's how the Aurbis normally is, infinity comes naturally to the gods and whatnot.

It's all just infinities surrounding, intersecting and merging with other infinities in various ways, it doesn't operate on the same physical limitations as the Mundus. Mortals are unique for being, well, mortal.

What is infinite to the finite mortal mind is just normal to the gods and daedra and whatnot outside of the Mundus.

We are no less intelligent than them for not being able to perceive Oblivion for instance as anything but a chaotic mess, we're just not built to handle that kind of thing. In turn, dragons don't get mortality besides the surface level understanding, it's not an uncommon sentiment among daedra too for instance that mortality is a weird idea to the immortal.

[split pond]

Did Hermaeus Mora ever make a comment on Dyus and Jyggalag's library?

[pastel sorrel]

Not so far.

[fleet trench]

Hlo

[upper field]

Hermaeus Mora is probably too salty to say anything. lol

[glacial scarab]

We don't really have any comments on Jygg outside of the Shivering Isles dlc

[sweet plume]

I assume he’s getting Jyggy with it

[plain cosmos]

And a single OOG but official 'Interview' with Haskill and Dyus

[brisk perch]

Remember that Uncle Sheo is in all of us, that means that Jyggalag is also dancing in the back of our minds, too.

[gaunt bear]

In a matter of speaking.

[split pond]

I kind of want to see how the millennia of being Sheogorath has changed Jyggalag.

[gaunt bear]

My best bet is that he’s not as rigidly inflexible as he once was. Number two in line is that he’s now about returning things to their original state.

[split pond]

Isn't number two close to Peryite's sphere?

[plain cosmos]

Nah, Peyrite is more 'Natural Order'. The cycle of creation and decay.

Jyggalag is rigid, crystalline order. Absolute, unchanging, static.

[gaunt bear]

That attitude is what got him turned into Sheogorath in the first place.

[plain cosmos]

Yes, though the circumstances of that aren't clear.

Some say Sheo was created when Lorkhan was killed and his heart cut out. Some that Jygg was cursed by the other Princes for being too powerful. And others still that he went mad from learning his own nature.

Now that Sheo is an independent entity from Jyggalag, instead of two sides of the same coin, it's more likely that Jygg will double down on his nature, free from the chaos of Sheogorath.

Because Daedra aren't people who change and learn lessons. They are expressions of ideas given consciousness. Jygg can't mellow out anymore that Dagon can.

Because, at the end of the day, it's not about who he is, it's about WHAT he is.

[gaunt bear]

I say that Jyggalag is now about returning things that have been corrupted or “perverted” from their original purpose to their “rightful” state.

[plain cosmos]

Probably having a panic attack over how many things are different now. I'd make a comical reference to emphasise the point buuut... No politics allowed.

[split pond]

I heard that Jyggalag was not actually freed from his curse.
First, Haskill was another individual who mantled Sheogorath in what I assumed was a previous Greymarch. We can infer that the Hero of Kvatch did things differently and so the cycle was fully broken, but this brings us to...
Second, Talym Rend met Sheogorath after the events of Oblivion, and Sheogorath in this time was the Hero of Kvatch. However, Talym managed to force Sheogorath to remember his memories of Jyggalag, but why does he have the previous Sheogorath's memories? Is this a nature of mantling that is so complete that the individual doing the mantling also gets the previous god's memories?
And Third, could Jyggalag's transformation into Sheogorath been something he actually predicted and allowed to happen? The Truth in Sequence: Volume 3 mentions that his existence as a Daedra, a being of chaos, goes so against his nature of Order that he went mad in the revelation.

Sorry, I've been obsessed with Jyggalag lately. I'm hoping he plays a major role in TES 6.

Of course, this being the Elder Scrolls, the narratives could all be true and having the Mad God involved just makes things even more unpredictable and untrustworthy.

[gaunt bear]

What happened to Jyggalag can be summed up as… a great big, giant mess.

[sweet plume]

Getting Jyggy with it

[gaunt bear]

But my theory is that it’s an entirely new Sheogorath. The mantling process messed up. Big time. When that happened, Sheogorath gained the Hero’s taste for selfless heroism, and the Hero gained all the old Sheogorath’s memories needed to “play the part”, which ended up creating an entirely new Sheogorath.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly I doubt Sheogorath changed. Just Jygg and Sheo were finally separated.

[split pond]

Well, the Hero of Kvatch became the new Sheogorath, so the personality and mannerisms of the Hero should transfer over to the new mad god?

[glacial scarab]

Would be impossible to tell. Sheogorath was always noted as being unpredictable.

[undone prairie]

Did the inhabitants of the elder scrolls universe always know of the existence of the supernatural

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, the supernatural is just normal for them. We don't know of a time they didn't know.

[pastel sorrel]

1. Haskill's a Vestige remaining from a failed attempt by his own admission. No need to infer what's been made clear.

2. Why are you treating them as two separate Sheogoraths with separate memories? The point of mantling is to become as they are until you are metaphysically indistinguishable. The CoC simply continues Sheogorath, subsuming into the mantle. It's not the first iteration of Sheogorath, but it's Sheogorath just the same.

3. Truth in Sequence is one zealot's interpretation of Sil's theology (likely intentionally shaped by Sil regardless of his true perspective) and is countermanded by Jyggalag's own words on the matter. One's a better authority than the other.

[split pond]

The point of mantling is to become as they are until you are metaphysically indistinguishable.
Right, thanks for clarifying.

[undone prairie]

Okay

[sweet plume]

Boop

[sweet plume]

You alright my friend?

[plain cosmos]

Hah, never. But that's a good thing. Being alright would, for me, mean no more room to improve.

[sweet plume]

You should come over to UESP, it’s pretty fun there.

[plain cosmos]

I may some day. Juggling too many groups can be distracting some times.

[split pond]

If a Magna-Ge can become a Daedric Prince, is it possible for the reverse to happen and a Daedric Prince to become a Magna-Ge?

[plain cosmos]

Maybe

[pastel sorrel]

Strictly speaking we don't know how the Magna-ge came about

They might be just followers of Magnus, they might be borne of him like dragons are of Akatosh

Could be a mix of both

That said, it'd be a hard sell for Magnus considering Meridia was kicked out just for consorting with the daedra. An actual prince would anathema.

[restive hedge]

So uuuh... what or whom does Serana feed off of when she's following you aka outside of Volkihar?

[pastel sorrel]

Probably just gets by with her vampiric drain.

Or else the bodies of bandits and such.

[split pond]

What if Azurah and/or Boethra forced him to?

[plain cosmos]

They may not have the power to do so

[pastel sorrel]

Kind of a bold question seeing as we have no idea if they even could

[shell basin]

Rare steaks and black-puddings, hopefully. Terry Pratchett's Discworld showed a way for vampires to survive 🙂

[plain falcon]

Um, is anyone else getting booted? I just started playing again and it won't let me back in

[undone prairie]

What a magna ge

[proven moss]

Followers (literally) of Magnus. Magnus discovered the purpose of the Mundus and fled his creation, tearing a great hole in the sky. Other et'ada followed him, ripping smaller holes that would become the stars.

Meridia supposedly is a Magne Ge who got booted from Aetherius for being a bad girl