#elder-scrolls-lore

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frigid willow
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Daedric princes are uniquely powerful within and outside their sphere. Probably some of the most powerful beings we deal with directly. But they aren't omniscient or omnipotent

glacial scarab
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Implying they arn't always toying with us. They could even be the so called "Aedra" fooling the mortals since day one.

olive saffron
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Akatosh is Omnipresent

brisk perch
olive saffron
# brisk perch Nope, only present within space that have *time*

As the old world died, **Satakal **began, **and when things realized this pattern so did they realize what their part in it was. **
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth

The Cosmos formed from the Aurbis [chaos, or totality] by Anu and Padomay.
Akatosh (Auriel) formed and Time began . The Gods (et'Ada) formed.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man

So that he might know himself this way, too, Anu created Auriel, the soul of his soul. Auriel bled through the Aurbis as a new force, called time. With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth

They shed their skin and severed their roots and called themselves Atakota, who said "Maybe."

When Atakota said this, the skin it had shed knew itself. It ate the severed roots and even though it was dead, it followed Atakota like a shadow.

Atakota continued to roil, and each of its scales was a world that it devoured. But now Atakota was not in conflict, and things had time to begin and end. The shadow wished it could eat these things, but its belly was full of roots that were growing.

When the shadow could bear it no longer, it swam closer to Atakota and spat out the roots. Now that its belly was empty, the shadow almost ate them again and everything else it saw. But it had come to see the roots as its own after carrying them, so instead it told them secrets and went to sleep.

The roots found others and told them how they had survived in the belly of the shadow and how they were still able to grow there. When they shared this knowledge with the others it changed them, and they took on new forms with new names.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Root

Lore:The Monomyth
Lore:Before the Ages of Man
Lore:Children of the Root
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Akatosh's Time is the only reason anything can even exist, his time stabilizes the entire Aurbis

pastel sorrel
olive saffron
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Akatosh is Omnipresent.

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The entire basis of all of TES existence post Anu and Padomay is Akatosh existing

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He is the Grey Maybe, he is Nir (in a metaphorical sense)

pastel sorrel
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That anything even exists in stable form is courtesy of time, and that anywhere has anywhere to exist is courtesy of space. Akatosh and Lorkhan are everywhere, even if they're not always as thicc in certain places.

olive saffron
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This is the only constant in all TES religion

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That the great Wyrm forms and allows all to exist by spreading across everything

brisk perch
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There are places canonically outside, therefore, not omnipresent. Present everywhere within the Aurbis maybe, but outside no.

pastel sorrel
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The Aurbis is the known universe to begin with

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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It might be a multiverse or whatnot, but time is still time.

olive saffron
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TES is a Multiverse, the multiverse is the Aurbis

brisk perch
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That time is not Akatosh, though

pastel sorrel
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[citation needed]

olive saffron
brisk perch
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Akatosh is time within the Aurbis

pastel sorrel
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And the Aurbis is the entire thing, so that's not really a useful statement.

olive saffron
# pastel sorrel [citation needed]

It was confirmed in ESO.

Unbeknownst to all but a few, Nirn has come unmoored from the fabric of the multiverse, as the mortal realm is drawn ever closer to Coldharbour, the twisted Oblivion realm of the Daedric Prince of domination and enslavement, Molag Bal. The Planemeld, a process in which the two worlds slowly become one, is threatening the existence of all races on Tamriel.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Introduction_to_the_Lore_of_The_Elder_Scrolls_Online

Online:Introduction to the Lore of The Elder Scrolls Online
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It's not a Multiverse like the MCU however, all the planes of Oblivion and Realms of Aetherius are considered universes

pastel sorrel
olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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AKHAT is Time. That's his fundamental nature, it's why anything has stable form. Outside of the Aurbis is outside of Anu's dream entirely which isn't really a useful conversation since we don't know what's going on out there, if an "out there" even exists to begin with in any meaningful way.

olive saffron
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From all we've been taught atm, there is nothing outside ANU who is everything that is the Aurbis etc

It's just Aurbis. So yeah I'd say there isn't an "out there"

brisk perch
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If you cut yourself out of the Aurbis, you are separate, no longer bound by the rules and concepts of this one

olive saffron
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If you're referring to Amaranth, we don't know the exact functions of it, but considering Akavir is on Nirn in the c0daverse, I doubt it separates you from Aurbis

pastel sorrel
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I can assure you, I need no introduction to Sermon 37. That's not what it's talking about.

olive saffron
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same

brisk perch
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Funny thing about cutting yourself out of the Aurbis: you split off and become a separate canon

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Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, and other such terms only mean something within a context unless it means all possible existences, including ours. Hence, Akatosh can only be Time within the canon of The Elder Scrolls' Aurbis.

pastel sorrel
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The point with Sermon 37 is principally Vivec recognizing he'd been on the wrong path this whole time. He thought the best way forward was I, but in the process he'd become weakened, for to paraphrase what he wrote earlier, "It's easier to kiss the lover than become one". The better path is WE, and that ties into multiple aspects of his personal character arc culminating in c0da.

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Sermon 19 for instance shows his failed attempt at Amaranth. He has CHIM squared away, he sets himself up for the leap, and yet he cannot take it. He can't take that final last step.

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His personal failings and baggage hold him back.

olive saffron
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Obviously nobody is arguing Akatosh is Time irl and Omnipresent in IRL and all fiction

brisk perch
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Ah, then we agree then, for the most part.

pastel sorrel
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And by c0da he's come to recognize that he will not be the new Amaranth, and that's fine. Beforehand it wasn't fine for him, he wanted to be everyone and everything as Sotha Sil explains, but he can only ever be Vivec.

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But by the end, what Vivec is has changed, and he, or rather her, has her child who is the new Amaranth instead, playing her collective part in bringing it about with Jubal and all the others present rather than trying to be it herself.

brisk perch
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Technically speaking, fiction exists within our own universe, similar to how dreams and others are like small realities, but not what they appear to be.

olive saffron
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Sure but like. I was never arguing Akatosh is real? I was just explaining what he is, in the lore of The Elder Scrolls.

pastel sorrel
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^

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The channel's literally #elder-scrolls-lore, that's the context everything's discussed in first and foremost.

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Within the context of TES, AKHAT is Time. His nature is not uniformly powerful throughout the Aurbis, but it's always present.

brisk perch
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Hmm, trying to figure out the relation between Satakal and Akatosh

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Similar superficial appearance, an aspect of Satakal perhaps?

pastel sorrel
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Speaking of "outside" the Aurbis's multiverse is an exercise in futility, because you're not discussing TES anymore. It's not even a matter of different canons, because bear in mind that the canon-related statements c0da makes are MK's own and aren't necessarily reflective of TES's official status; I absolutely will defend MK's works as valid pieces of lore, but I still recognize they're at a secondary level to the "official" works' primary level.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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Satakal's more an idea of Anu+Padomay plus some Alduin

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Which of course still ties back to Akatosh in the end by that nature

olive saffron
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oof

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Think I can post it now, Elven myth. Says same thing. Anu and Padomay = Time which is Akatosh

The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began.

pastel sorrel
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They're not 1:1, but certainly referencing the same concepts. See also Tall Papa, who's basically equivalent to Magnus but still has his own dynamics too

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Or cases like Orkey where they're worshipping some amalgamation of Arkay/Xarxes and Malacath

brisk perch
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Multi-language translations may or may not be part of the whole, though then again, it could be part of the multiple interpretations

olive saffron
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Also Satakal is explicitly tied to Sep/Lorkhan

And in every myth Akatosh is tied to Lorkhan

So it persists

pastel sorrel
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Time and Space are the inseparable twin brothers.

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Two sides of the same coin.

brisk perch
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Is Namira Space?

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
brisk perch
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Makes sense, there

olive saffron
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Namira is a really twisted aspect of Sithis too iirc

pastel sorrel
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She's said to be essentially borne of the Void, yes. Which makes sense for her nature when you think about it.

olive saffron
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Yep, I love that ESO lore. It really fleshed out Namira

pastel sorrel
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The Void doesn't necessarily care for being anything other than the Void, thus does Creation rot.

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Hence the Dark Brotherhood, too, if they really are serving Sithis and not just Mephala pulling every string. Sithis is associated with chaos, but chaos doesn't just mean random noise.

olive saffron
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I think the Brotherhood are serving Sithis in some capacity

pastel sorrel
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It's disorder, breaking down the orderly macro structures above. Entropic reduction to a base state

olive saffron
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Lucien Lachance partway confirms it having witnessed the Void personally

pastel sorrel
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Not just them, the daedra pass through the Void whenever they're killed

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Closest thing to sleeping they care to experience, and it's not pleasant for them

olive saffron
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That too ye

pastel sorrel
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That base level of misanthropy. The Aurbis itself doesn't necessarily want to exist, possibly even wants to be basically nothing, and one can psychoanalyze Anu just by looking at all the various shenanigans of his dream.

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He dreams, but doesn't want to.

olive saffron
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I think the best way to analyze Anu's character is too look at Akatosh, since in a broad sense Akatosh is his self insert

pastel sorrel
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Akatosh and Lorkhan both, really. Lorkhan is often left out of the conversation, and that can often be to do with Altmeri bias; the two are inseparable and two sides of the exact same coin

olive saffron
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Absolutely true, just got a bit hyper focused on Akatosh ngl.

pastel sorrel
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Could even tie into a certain alchemical process you might be sort-of familiar with if you've ever listened to Tool - Lateralus. Black then white in the beginning for Void to interplay or more directly the black and white of Padomay and Anu, then red and yellow, Lorkhan and Akatosh.

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Spacetime, the first proper stabilization of the interplay.

olive saffron
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That is a cool and pretty accurate way of looking at it. It works

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I also see it as, Lorkhan being exactly as Sithis is to Anui-el, a sort of way for Anu to find out who he is, by bouncing off/reflecting of what he isn't, because Lorkhan is everything Akatosh is not while also being his shadow.

That's the gist of Padomay/Sithis in a sense too, to not exist and exist so Anu, which is everything, can better understand what they are.

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It's very wordy and hard to explain tbh

pastel sorrel
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Akatosh's shadow but arguably also a light being cast on him in turn.

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Lorkhan is the IS NOT to Akatosh's IS, but where the pessimistic Altmer see that IS NOT as a lack of praxis on Lorkhan's part, Lorkhan was instead just as much looking forward.

olive saffron
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I blame Trinimac

pastel sorrel
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"IS NOT, BUT CAN BE". It's a key nuance you wouldn't see from the Altmer.

olive saffron
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He spread misinfo about Lorkhan to the Altmer, I bet it's Trinimac's fault they forgot about the Dark heart or Lorkhan's nuances too

pastel sorrel
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After all, he left and saw the I and went forward with that revelation to show other people, and he intentionally gave up the chance to rule the Arena because he wanted to help move things forward to whatever comes next instead.

olive saffron
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Yep. Though I do wonder how much of that failure was intentional or his mind being corrupted by the Dark Heart and Namira

pastel sorrel
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I'd say Namira's corruption came later. It was his post-Convention corpse she was puppeteering

olive saffron
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Khajiit myth remains vague on it, though Yokudan myth says outright the Hunger ruined his mind

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He was so hungry he could not think straight. Sometimes he would just eat the spirits he was supposed to help, but Tall Papa would always reach in and take them back out. Finally, tired of helping Tall Papa, Sep went and gathered the rest of the old skins and balled them up, tricking spirits to help him, promising them this was how you reached the new world, by making one out of the old.

pastel sorrel
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Especially I doubt his failure was at her hands, because if he had've "succeeded", she'd be in even more control of the Mundus.

olive saffron
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That's true

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At least he's at peace now in Sovngarde

pastel sorrel
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All the way up to Convention was himself, the Moon Beast is just his corpse revived as a zombie

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Or a new corpse reformed

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But that the Void Ghost is still trying to move forward goes to show his true colors. He's a multi-faceted individual and may well have his own personal darkness even without Namira, but he's at least trying to move forward whether people like it or not.

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He basically taped everyone's eyes open and sat them in front of the screen to show what he saw, or help them to see at least, and be in a position to find what comes after. Not everyone necessarily consented to this project, but again, complex matter.

olive saffron
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I think he's managed to move past much of his darkness, as we see in Sovngarde Nords who arrive seem to lose their hate and bigotry, and he has his friend Tsun soundly reject anyone who claims to be of Sithis/Namira/his old Darkness in general.

pastel sorrel
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He and his brother both. Auriel may still beef with him, but Akatosh does not.

olive saffron
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Wdym? Neither have beef because they're the same person

pastel sorrel
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Different aspects of AKHAT

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Same snake, different shed skins.

olive saffron
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Their different religious interpretations yes, but the separate thinking personalities theory is faulty honestly

pastel sorrel
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Not necessarily

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MK's spoken directly about them fragmenting, particularly Akatosh is all over the place which is something the Khajiiti mythology even recognizes

olive saffron
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It's not supported in the lore is my main reason, MK sometimes agreed with it and sometimes changed his mind and didn't. In the lore they're consistently treated as equatable.

And it's stated outright in the lore that Alessia pulled Akatosh from the Elven pantheon

katosh was an Aldmeri god, and Alessia's subjects were as-yet unwilling to renounce their worship of the Elven pantheon

pastel sorrel
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Again, the Khajiiti mythology does support it, and they've been shown to be right about multiple other things. What's especially interesting is even the dragons will refer to the local name for their father.

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They'll call him Alkosh in Elsweyr even if they have no actual reason to

olive saffron
# pastel sorrel MK's spoken directly about them fragmenting, particularly Akatosh is all over th...

MK never said that Auriel is not akatosh, he said something about Akaspirits in his AMA, but we should note that not only does MK not have complete creative control over the lore, but he also said this in his 2013-2015 period.

MK has said outright that during 2013-2015 he was horribly addicted to alcohol and benzos and was constantly hallucinating, confusing fiction and reality, as well as saying things he, per his own words, does not remember saying or even believes

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In all the existing in universe lore, the different interpretations of AKHAT are treated as that, interpretations, not literal separate personalities who co-exist and form from a greater oversoul

pastel sorrel
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I'm well aware of that, but getting into the validity of MK's texts is a whole 'nother can of worms and not a useful conversation right now.

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The different interpretations of Akatosh are treated as interpretations by some cultures, and that doesn't mean they're right to do so.

olive saffron
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Fair, but his words is largely the basis for the Mirror-aspects look at the Time Dragon. In the lore it does not exist

pastel sorrel
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For like the third time now, it does exist in the lore and you've yet to address what I've brought up about that.

olive saffron
olive saffron
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Akha is not Auriel

pastel sorrel
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Mortal understanding is itself severely limited, you have to look at various different aspects of it and cross-reference to get any kind of straight answer, which is of course what the Monomyth is.

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https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wandering_Spirits

Akha. The First Cat, whom we know as the Pathfinder and the One Unmourned. In the earliest days, when Ahnurr and Fadomai were still in love, he explored the heavens and his trails became the Many Paths. He was Ahnurr's Favored Son, and his father told him to find love like Ahnurr found with Fadomai. Akha mated with the Winged Serpent of the East, the Dune Queen of the West, and the Mother Mammoth of the North. He then went to the South and never returned. Instead, Alkosh appeared speaking warnings of the things Akha had made along the Many Paths. Since then, Alkosh and his faithful watch over the many children of Akha, for they are both terrible and kind.

Lore:The Wandering Spirits
olive saffron
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Akha is likely Anui-El honestly.

pastel sorrel
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Akha. Aka. Dragon/Time (both mean the same thing strictly speaking).

olive saffron
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Nahfahlaar calls Alkosh his father, not Akha. Alduin calls Akatosh his father. As does Paarthurnax. Paarthurnax asserts that Alduin is Akatosh's creation.

Everyone asserts Auriel is Akatosh

pastel sorrel
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Yes, but a key point to remember: some conflate Akatosh with AKHAT.

olive saffron
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Because Akatosh is AKHAT

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AKHAT is just his Ehlnofey name. Just as Auriel is just his Aldmeri name

pastel sorrel
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Yes, as is Auriel and Alkosh and so on and so forth. And they are each other. But that doesn't mean they're entirely each other.

olive saffron
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I don't see why not however

pastel sorrel
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It's a easy concept, though. We literally already discussed this in the previous conversation

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Lorkhan and Akatosh.

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They're two sides of the same coin. By the same concept, Auriel and Akatosh and whatnot are different sides of their same coin.

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They can have their own individual personalities, but they're still inextricably bound as extensions of their oversoul.

olive saffron
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We know mortal biases effect how they tell tales, the discrepancies in the described personalities of the Time Dragon is just that, bias. An Akatosh priest even mentions this in ESO

"All but the most dogmatic of theologians agree that the Imperial Akatosh and the Elven Auri-El are one and the same, though the Elves' worship of** Auri-El is skewed by their unfortunate racial biases.** But Auri-El is indubitably the God of Time for both the Altmer and Bosmer, and** in their creation myths we easily recognize the acts of our own Father Akatosh.** As to your penultimate question, since both Akatosh and Auri-El are credited with commencing the flow of time, by definition neither could 'precede' the other."

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Artorius_Ponticus_Answers_Your_Questions

Lore:Artorius Ponticus Answers Your Questions
pastel sorrel
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Technically it's all just Anu once you go up high enough.

olive saffron
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That needlessly complicates what is a simple case of one individual, lots of opinions

pastel sorrel
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Case in point that condemns the argument: Alduin. They thought he was just Akatosh.

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Then with TES5 we see they were quite a ways wrong about that.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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And the Nords end up being right about that, casting doubt on the validity of the Altmeri view and by extension the Imperial view that's influenced by it.

olive saffron
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That is why Alduin Ent Akatosh exists as a direct parallel, this is what the people themselves have to say about their theology, this is what a foreigner thinks while diregarding their word

olive saffron
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The Aldmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Mer mer mer all attest that Akatosh is Auriel

pastel sorrel
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So? They share beliefs because they're culturally related, that doesn't mean they're correct.

olive saffron
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And again, we know historically where Akatosh comes from!

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Akatosh comes form the Elven Religion to begin with! He entered Human faith only because the Nedes adopted it from their Ayleid masters

Akatosh was an Aldmeri god, and Alessia's subjects were as-yet unwilling to renounce their worship of the Elven pantheon. She found herself in a very sensitive political situation. She needed to keep the Nords as her allies, but they were (at that time) fiercely opposed to any adoration of Elven deities. On the other hand, she could not force her subjects to revert back to the Nordic pantheon, for fear of another revolution. Therefore, concessions were made and Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines

Lore:Shezarr and the Divines
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That is a false dichotomy and you know it

brittle cobalt
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Let's keep real world religion out of this, please.

olive saffron
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Back on TES, Akatosh is also literally Elven to his roots.

Aka-Tosh, etymologically is literally just means Time Dragon or Dragon Dragon. Aka is an Elven word. He is stated to be of the Elven Pantheon.

Auriel in Varieties of faith is stated to be Auriel Time Dragon. Considering from where Akatosh comes from, and how in Remanada he is called Auriel and Aka-tosh, I'd attest Auriel Time Dragon is also known to the Ayleids as Auriel Aka-Tosh

pastel sorrel
olive saffron
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I love you sweet Aless, sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-el and the Sacred Bull

El-Estia, queen of ancient times, who bore in her left hand the dragonfire of the** aka-tosh** and in her right hand the jewels of the covenant

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada

Lore:Remanada
olive saffron
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Alduin is an exception that proves the rule

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And more importantly, he is a retcon, and not indicative of all the Time deities

pastel sorrel
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It's the same as people thinking the Waking Flame in ESO are right about their narrative of Dagon's creation just because they agree with Mankar. Dagonite beliefs being consistent isn't support for their truthfulness, it just means Dagon believes it or his followers keep believing it.

pastel sorrel
olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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According to whom?

olive saffron
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It's a retcon, you really have to leap to say it isn't. At the time of Morrowind Alduin was Akatosh, per all the existing lore and how MK talked about him.

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Also by definition it is a retcon because retcon means retroactive continuity

pastel sorrel
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Literally from TES2 onwards and especially Redguard onwards they've intentionally run with the unreliable narrative trope, providing lore as opposed to truth. Things aren't put in the games to be the truth, they're put in to be narratives that might or might not be the truth.

olive saffron
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This is retroactive continuity by definition

olive saffron
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Retroactive Continuity, new information that reframes information in a continuity. Akatosh we were told was Alduin, then this was changed, that's a retcon

pastel sorrel
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I'm familiar with nearly every text of MK's, I don't recall him ever describing Alduin as literally Akatosh. On multiple occasions he's made it clear he's a separate individual, albeit still connected to Akatosh or even AKHAT above.

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At most a mirror-brother like Auriel.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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Yes, and has any of that ever indicated he wasn't meant to be another aspect originally?

olive saffron
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The few times he hasn't, it was near Skyrims release and he knew everything happening in the writing room

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The entire mess of Mirror-Aspects is very arguably MK trying to keep old lore relevant in the face of new lore that overwrites it

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Alduin explicitly claims himself the Son of Akatosh, not his mirror brother, or equal in any capacity

pastel sorrel
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I know, and I'll absolutely fight any argument that he's meant to be equal. My point was that that's as far as MK ever described him. Never Akatosh, but akin.

olive saffron
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That's the thing MK did describe him prior, not OOG but in the game lore, as we see in variety of fates

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And I seriously doubt MK was thinking of the plot of Skyrim in 2003

pastel sorrel
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I mean, they might've been. They had plans for Skyrim all the way back in Redguard

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even if just preliminary

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A lot of TES5's lore was already established way back in the PGE1 which released with Redguard, let alone whatever Bethesda might've had written down but not utilized in the games yet

olive saffron
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Plans for Skyrim is not the same as writing Lore you know will be proven false 8 years later. Soon before Skyrim released they thought the plot would be Uriel bringing Dragons from Akavir

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Alduin initially wasn't even the focus

pastel sorrel
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That was one of the ideas they were kicking around, yes

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Another involved Auriel sniping Talos right out of Aetherius which then messed up any attempts at depicting the Red Diamond in artwork

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and the dragons being more fleshed out as "organic time machines"

olive saffron
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Anyways we're arguing semantics, it's a retcon because by definition a retcon is retroactive information that changes continuity. Prior to Skyrim the continuity as written in the franchise was Alduin as the Nordic view of Akatosh, and then this was changed. That is a retcon

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
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The continuity was specifically the Imperials believed Alduin was the Nordic view of Akatosh. That was never an objective statement, and the document it comes from is already known to be filled with Imperial-biased inaccuracy on some things, notably Almalexia; it tries so hard to conflate her worship with that of Akatosh's that it goes to show it's just as likely to press that upon anything else such as Alduin.

olive saffron
olive saffron
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Some of the gods are the same (or similar) – significantly these are the three female gods, which are far more important to the Nords than they are in the Imperial Cult. (Kyne is in fact the de facto head of the Nord pantheon.) The Nords are perplexed and disturbed by the Imperial Cult’s focus on the Dragon God – they regard this as a fundamental misunderstanding of the universe, and one likely to cause disaster in the end. (Which fits perfectly with the pessimistic Nord view of the world in general – things are likely to turn out badly, and it will probably be caused by some foreigner.) Lucky for the world that the Nords are so diligent about keeping Alduin asleep, while the southerners are busy trying to get his attention! Any mention of Akatosh in a Nord’s presence is likely to bring a muttered invocation to Alduin to stay asleep in response.

The Nords believe that, During the Oblivion Crisis, it was Talos (Dragonborn, Martin’s forefather) lending his aid, not Alduin.

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The First born stuff is all after the change that comes with Skyrim

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MK was still pushing for them to be equated with what he presented to Bethesda

pastel sorrel
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I'm aware of that document, but you don't realize that's the Nords making the exact same mistake their southern cousins were making. That text is almost verbatim present in ESO as well.

olive saffron
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Because an ESO dev ripped it from MK yes, MK was delighted when he learned this

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He had nothing to do with it being added to ESO, it's not some 4d chess move he planned all along since 2003

pastel sorrel
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Not necessarily MK. It was a design doc from Bethesda, they could've just gotten ahold of that.

olive saffron
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The Design Doc is by MK, this is confirmed

pastel sorrel
#

MK just provided us with a slightly edited version to read beforehand.

#

By MK or provided by MK? Those are two different things.

olive saffron
#

By

pastel sorrel
#

Where did he say he wrote it himself?

olive saffron
#

This is a serious reach, are you really going to deny this?

pastel sorrel
#

You do realize Bethesda employs multiple writers right

olive saffron
#

I know he did and I can find the citation, but are we really going to leap this far?

I will actually ping MK on r/Teslore if I have to I am so certain.

pastel sorrel
#

Feel free to, I'd love to have that as proof for if someone else ever asks the question

#

If he himself wrote that text, cool, I have no problem with that concept, what I'm asking for is proof that it was him and not a collaborative effort amongst the various writers. Bare minimum I'd assume Kurt would've helped

olive saffron
#

I am getting it but yeah Kurt probably helped because MK and Kurt did almost all their lore together

pastel sorrel
#

Even the Sermons weren't actually as much MK as is conventionally thought, they were heavily edited by the others.

#

Vivec in general had like 3 different writers

#

Which as MK pointed out suits his character well

olive saffron
#

Ken Vivec best Vivec

olive saffron
# pastel sorrel If he himself wrote that text, cool, I have no problem with that concept, what I...

While I wait for a straight answer also worth noting MK presented them as internal notes initially on Reddit before ever posting them in a proper organized post on Tumblr

https://web.archive.org/web/20220117053124/https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1zw5p0/femininity_in_tamrielic_faith_part_1_mara/cfxo87i/

It's rather clear both from it harkening to his older lore and how he presented it is his work

reddit
Femininity in Tamrielic Faith Part 1: Mara

This is wonderful. So here: *"Nord gods are intrinsically understood to be cyclical, just like the world is. There are the Dead Gods, who fought...

#

I don't know if he will ever answer me on reddit so I also dm'd someone who knows him.

#

uesp also, cites the Doc writer as MK.

#

Nvm there is a straight answer

pastel sorrel
#

It might be citing him for publishing it, but that doesn't mean the UESP knows he actually wrote it.

olive saffron
#

MK wrote it, period.

pastel sorrel
#

I'd argue there's still a mild grey area of second-guessing that a direct answer from him would clear up, but pending that response from him it's more likely than not, then.

#

But going down from that tangent, saying he's the writer, he's still fundamentally writing a piece of lore for the game. It's not necessarily meant to be an objective statement on what is going on, it's just meant to be the Nordic beliefs.

olive saffron
#

He's the only one who presents it, he created the initial lore the pushed the idea, he tried to make Alduin equal to Akatosh post skyrim, he presents this information whenever prompted about the what if for nord religion in skyrim, his wife cites him as the author

You really have to push it for that Grey area

olive saffron
#

Again, Alduin is an outlier

pastel sorrel
#

An outlier is still a precedent to question others.

olive saffron
#

And he is indicative of nothing pertaining to the other time spirit interpretations

pastel sorrel
#

Also, his idea did get through, even if it didn't immediately get through in TES5. In general there could've been much more done with the Nordic mythology in TES5, but that's another conversation too.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
#

That's not a new precedent, though. We already knew the lore could be changed. But also we knew the lore could be wrong.

olive saffron
#

And again, Alduin akatosh dichotomy notes the difference between trusting Elves and disregarding nords for a reason, because the scholar failed academically there

pastel sorrel
#

I've gotta leave for work hnnnng

#

appropriately, curse you time for running like this

#

I'll be back in a few hours

olive saffron
#

I will unfortunately be gone by then oof, talk to ya another time

golden sierra
#

i found a pretty nifty quote a while back in one of the loremaster archives pertaining to this subject

#

no wait it wasn't a loremaster archive

#

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lawrence-schick-and-phrastus-altmer-culture

Atharaon:
Are the eight planets of the Altmer literally the same eight planets of the other Aedric religions but with different names, or are they actually different planets altogether, i.e. there are more than eight planets up there, but each group is making a selection of their own chosen eight.

Phrastus:
The answer, I believe, is mostly the former with a little bit of the latter: mythopoeia is real, or “real,” so the reality-warping force of cultural belief must be accounted for. In other words, they’re all the same planets but not exactly the same divines—and if that doesn’t make sense to you, I scarcely know where to start. Where did you say you studied, again?

#

MK also has a pretty interesting topic on the subject

#

On the different time-dragons:

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.

#

i personally tend toward "Auriel and Akatosh and Alduin are all part of the overall concept/plane(t) Time (AKHAT) but can act individually on account of being different personalities of a god"

usually when you have different personalities in the same body, we'd imagine the personalities fighting for who's in control, but because he's a god, those personalities are able to exist more or less simultaneously, hypothetically capable of avatars of two different personalities appearing at once (although it'd have to be the right circumstances: Aedra seem to have a hard time creating avatars, although we see a few in TESIII, one in TESIV, and two in TESV)

but of course, that's just my interpretation akkoShrug do with it and the information presented as you will

golden sierra
# golden sierra https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lawrence-schick-and-phrastus-altmer-cu...

a notable piece of context which is pretty much required to understand this:

What are planets?
The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology

olive saffron
#

Alduin especially because you have to ignore his own words in order to justify him being part of the whole thing

olive saffron
#

Mythopeia does exist yes but according to Lady Nerevar, MK's wife, it's not that at all. It's re-enactment of Myth to change myth

#

And that's essentially what the Aldmer King Auriel may have done when if he had mantled the Time Dragon, and that's a very separate theory to the other one I have distaste for

golden sierra
#

i'm standing by my interpretation in this case, i was primarily just tossing in sources which might assist in the conversation

#

my 2 cents were mostly to hopefully help provide an overview of what these might mean when taken together

olive saffron
#

Ah, fair enough

golden sierra
# olive saffron Alduin especially because you have to ignore his own words in order to justify h...

well, actually, this allows me to bring in another source, which was my primary purpose for pitching in anyways

"The Moot looked to the tribe of Ald son of Ald but he would break no oath of the Pact

  • Shor Son of Shor
    i don't believe my theory or mirror theory in general contradicts the idea that Alduin is the child of AKHAT (i use the Ehlnofex name here to try and refer to a more neutral view of the Time god without cultural bias). for instance, the Khajiit have three Time gods, Akha, Alkosh, and Alkhan. these are all Time gods, and so would reasonably all be mirrors of AKHAT, yet have relationships with one another and interact quite heavily. to take Alduin as belonging to a separate Planet or to no Planet at all seems, to me, to also imply that either Alkosh or Akha does not belong to a Planet or belongs to a separate Planet. what are your thoughts?
#

and apologies if i misunderstood your stance

olive saffron
# golden sierra well, actually, this allows me to bring in another source, which was my primary ...

Thing is, despite how much I like it Shor son of Shor is not canon and has yet to be referenced in any existing media. This text is also directly contradicted by Paarthurnaxs' words about Alduin being a *creation *of Akatosh.

And even then, within Shor son of Shor, the new them is not the old them, And Alduin is not Akatosh.

Along side this text MK also released the text Seven fights of Aldudagga where Alduin is a clear inferior to Aka-tusk, and from who he was shed.

Khajiit myth is a different story entirely, Akha was likely Anui-El if anything, and he disappears. He is then replaced by Alkosh who assumws his position. Dragons refer to Alkosh as their father and nobody speaks of Akha in any capacity.

Khajiit myth has Alkhan as firstborn as well, and of Akha, whom is replaced by Alkosh

golden sierra
#

i only skimmed the conversation before entering the sources, seeing as i wasn't intending on continuing

olive saffron
golden sierra
olive saffron
#

What is told on the tin is what it is, no deeper time spirit conspiracy, I don't agree with the fandom theory of separate personalities of a Time spirit oversoul

olive saffron
golden sierra
#

...

olive saffron
#

Or rather she is of Sithis, from him

golden sierra
#

i appreciate the clarification

olive saffron
#

Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void. All creatures who feed on rotten flesh are her spies and the prey of Cats. The Lunar Lattice protects us from her hunger, but not our own. Know that to name her aloud is to invite the Dark, so you must never do so, as Namiira is the sound of her true name. She is a spirit of infinite realms, of which only Azurah knows all. Mortals who become ensnared by this spirit are tortured until they forget who they were and know only Namiira. This is eternal suffering for all souls but the ja-Kha'jay, whom Azurah will not abandon to the Dark.

#

I see Namira as the aspect of Sithis, the great Change, entropy specifically, hidden with Lorkhans' heart, the Spirit of Limitation

#

This matches pretty well with what we're told of her in Khajiit lore, and with her connection to Sithis

golden sierra
#

however, that is not quite what i meant. i meant a direct analogue of Sithis, similar to how you say that Akha is essentially Anuiel

#

after all, we know Namira to be a Daedric Prince, and we know Sithis not to be

olive saffron
olive saffron
golden sierra
#

Nocturnal is the Ur Dra according to some sources as well

olive saffron
#

It's a contested position, but given that the Dark Heart is proven to exist, I believe Namira to be

#

Her connection to Lorkhan is far more significant and thus makes her more worthy of the position than Nocturnal

#

It's also possible that Sithis is what the Khajiit texts consistently refer to as "The Dark"

#

Lorkhaj. The Moon Prince. Fadomai's Favored Son. The White Lion. He was born in the Great Darkness and it followed him as his burden. Loved by many, he was considered a noble leader. Lorkhaj was the first spirit to make his own path with purpose, because he was in conflict with himself as soon as he was born. His courage inspired all those he encountered, so much that he united the spirits to make the World. He gave his life to do this. We honor his sacrifice by walking the Path with purpose and resisting** the call of the Dark**

Namiira. The Eldest Spirit. The Great Darkness. The Void. All creatures who feed on rotten flesh are her spies and the prey of Cats. The Lunar Lattice protects us from her hunger, but not our own. Know that to name her aloud** is to invite the Dark**, so you must never do so, as Namiira is the sound of her true name. She is a spirit of infinite realms, of which only Azurah knows all. Mortals who become ensnared by this spirit are tortured until they forget who they were and know only Namiira. This is eternal suffering for all souls but the ja-Kha'jay, whom Azurah will not abandon** to the Dark.**

Noctra. The Shadow Thief. Daughter of Twilight. Born from the black blood of Lorkhaj at the steps of the Void Gate. In the songs, Boethra battled this spirit until it knew it was not Namiira. When this was done, Noctra was brought before Azurah to be judged. Azurah showed mercy and allowed Noctra to live, so long as she served Azurah and the ja-Kha'jay. But Noctra is rebellious by nature, so she stole one of Azurah's keys and fled back into the Void. It is written that Azurah sent the true spirit of Lorkhaj to find her, and ever since Noctra has aided the Khajiit when called. Tribes may whisper to Noctra for silence, shade, and luck. Do not summon her to perform vile deeds,** for this will bring the Dark with her.**

golden sierra
#

hm

#

i quite like that take, i think. i'll have to look into it more. it's closer to what i was going for than the Namiira answer foxnod

i don't really have many more thoughts on the topic, however

olive saffron
golden sierra
#

apologies for not reciprocating your answers! i feel kind of bad, but i don't think my thoughts are collected enough right now to properly represent myself. if i end up feeling up to the task later, i might end up coming back and joining in again foxxodance

olive saffron
#

All cool! Feel free to come back and discuss whenever you feel like

brisk perch
#

Hmm, could be that multiple entities could fill the title of "Ur-Dra" due to existing alongside/during the process of time becoming linear, or too early to tell the difference?

golden sierra
# brisk perch Hmm, could be that multiple entities could fill the title of "Ur-Dra" due to exi...

well... i've seen an interpretation of the source, which i think holds water, that says the title can basically be stolen

But Fadomai had taught Azurah the names of all of the spirits, so she recognized the Great Darkness for what it was, and she roared in time with the song:

UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA NA MII RA UR DRA AZU RA

And Azurah tore out the dark heart of Lorkhaj, and all of the darkness in him came with it, and she cast it beyond the sea.

  • The Favored Daughter of Fadomai
    it goes Namira, Namira, all of a sudden Azura, indicating the one who was holding the title suddenly changed
#

although, interestingly, i don't think we ever hear Namira called Ur-Dra by something somewhat authoritative, only ever from The Favored Daughter of Fadomai. for instance, both Nocturnal and Sotha Sil call Nocturnal Ur-Dra, which seems a FAIR bit more convincing than an origin story to me

#

the source which originally mentions the title also credits the royalty of oblivion (Princes and Lords) for the information

Nocturnal is accorded the title Ur-dra by nearly all the Royalty of Oblivion. As the mother of night, she claims to be an aspect of the original Void itself, and it is generally deemed best to fortify this declaration in one’s evening prayers.

  • Imperial Census of Daedra Lords
#

it could be that it's been stolen multiple times, or held by multiple people simultaneously. i personally subscribe to the theory that Nocturnal, as Shadow (including the unknown portion of the consciousness, which of course predates the known portion of the consciousness, thus how Nocturnal would be considered Ur (first)), is definitely Ur-Dra. the title belonging to Nocturnal makes significantly more sense than Namira, although i don't think Namira necessarily... isn't Ur-Dra? Nocturnal definitely is, but Namira might be. all the Spirits are, after all, ultimately each part of a single whole. the line of logic i'm aware of with Namira's claim to Ur-Dra basically points to the relationship with Lorkhan and Sithis, but does rely on taking the Monomyth's suggestion that Lorkhan is a limitation as meaning that Lorkhan is Limitation
Padomay -> Sithis -> Lorkhan -> Lorkhan's death -> Namira
IS NOT -> Void -> Limit -> Death/Ultimate Limit -> Decay (Entropy)

golden sierra
warm herald
#

Azura seems like a liar to me; but that twilight between truth and lie is still a bit of both.

golden sierra
#

oh

#

i forgot that Namira came so late, actually. it could be that Namira took the title of Ur-Dra upon being realized

golden sierra
#

do you think she lied about something that pertains to this specifically, or is it just a general statement that she seems like a liar?

warm herald
#

P much any time I read something she says she did (or perhaps someone else says she did; or in actuality that a writer rote that someone wrote that she did, etc) it smacks of b.s., that's all. Much of The Lore is false and misleading in that way.

golden sierra
#

so general statement foxnod gotcha

warm herald
#

Sure. It applies in some ways. To me it seems more likely that Azura didnt rip out lorkajh's heart, and may not have even been there in person so to speak.

golden sierra
#

well, these are Khajiit myths in particular

warm herald
#

The dwemer have some likely false fables too. But yes. Grains of salt e v e r y w h e r e. :p

golden sierra
#

maaaaan, this server is so hard to talk on

warm herald
#

Lol watchyomouf

golden sierra
#

the Khajiit were blessed by Azurah to have their shapes tied to the moons n stuff, so it makes sense to me for them to credit her for something like that. this also doesn't, in fact, directly contradict with the idea that Auriel, for instance, ripped out his Heart: note that Azura is ripping out Lorkhaj's Dark Hart

#

that said, yeah, you're right akkoShrug who knows if it's true

warm herald
#

"So what i said was true, in a manner of speaking"

olive saffron
#

Claims of Azura being a liar are frequent, but honestly she rarely is? The entirety of Morrowind history post Red Mountain is claiming she's a liar and well we all played Morrowind didn't we?

golden sierra
#

ye. regardless of Azura's place in the story, Namira and the Dark Heart are pretty certainly connected imo

olive saffron
#

Azura I'd argue is the most trustworthy prince, she almost never betrays a loyal follower

olive saffron
golden sierra
#

"having powers of Shadow"
that's downplaying it a tad...

olive saffron
olive saffron
#

Typos are all I do today

golden sierra
#

what i meant was that Nocturnal is Shadow

#

just as Mehrunes Dagon is Destruction, so on and so forth. it's not power over shadows, she is shadow

olive saffron
#

I know, that's mentioned in Amun-Dro as well, but a Shadow is not the same as THE Dark. She's of the Void yes but that seems less significant than being directly connected to the core of it as Namira is

golden sierra
warm herald
#

Lying is something everyone does; Azura does it well to have deceived so many ;p

olive saffron
warm herald
#

The reachfolk say namira removed the heart iirc. Mephala's webs are more cunning and devious than others, this is true--perhaps she is the source of the conflicting tales.

golden sierra
olive saffron
golden sierra
#

yes

olive saffron
#

ESO also has the lore claiming Namira is so

warm herald
#

In any case, the words of priests are hardly valid sources for truth outside of the walls of their temples.

olive saffron
#

I suppose, which is why I say we look to what makes each prince significant

#

And while Nocturnal is shadow, I see being Prince of Ancient Darkness and directly being tied to the Dark Corruption of Lorkhan as more significant

golden sierra
#

(pasted the wrong thing at first)
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Nocturnal
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aios

There is a threat! The Daedric Prince, Nocturnal!
"Accessing privatized threat-array. Dreaming … knee abrasion. Lullaby.
Threat located. Nocturnal. Ur-dra. Unfathomable Mistress of Shadows. Prospect registered. Risk level: moderate. Thank you for your concern."

  • Aios

"You trespass, Ur-dra. The Clockwork City shall bear your weight no longer."

  • Sotha Sil

How can I even be sure that you're really Nocturnal?
"Your doubts do you credit, mortal. But in your heart, you know the truth.
Your shadow grows long and dark. The shades of Evergloam dance at the edge of your sight. I am Ur-dra. I am Nocturnal."

  • Nocturnal
    another notable quote tying into the last one

"Before Oblivion, there was Nocturnal."

  • Nocturnal
Online:Sotha Sil
Online:Nocturnal
Online:Aios
olive saffron
#

I see that Sotha recognizes her as such, and yes she claims as such, but I frankly think the visible connection to Sithis who is far older and more encompassing than Prince is more significant

#

Though there's also the fact that Ur-Dra as a term for beings prior to other beings is a bit nonsensical, what with the lack of Linear time post the beginning of time, you mention this above iirc

golden sierra
olive saffron
#

Ur-Dra also supposedly means the strongest of the Princes, which is a whole other discussion primarily because of Jyggalag

golden sierra
#

strongest?! where'd you get that idea?

#

that's not something i've ever seen someone associate with Ur-Dra

olive saffron
#

Nocturnal is impressive, and if she had taken over Crystal tower she would've become strongest, but as of now? No way do I think Nocturnal is the strongest Daedroth

golden sierra
#

what makes you think it's Namira?

#

aside from the connection to the Dark Heart, which does not immediately entail being the strongest. besides Nocturnal also has a connection to the Dark Heart, and Sheogorath seems to as well

olive saffron
#

Mainly her connection to the Dark Heart again. Jyggalag I'm only not considering because he never contests the position in any source.

And between Namira and Nocturnal I think Namira is far more impressive

golden sierra
#

this seems like an arbitrary distinction to me

olive saffron
olive saffron
golden sierra
#

the way i've come to understand it is that Nocturnal is all Shadow, including the concept of the Jungian Shadow, which is - again, by my understanding - basically the portion of the mind or self which is unknown, undiscovered

#

this is why i referenced Nocturnal being Shadow earlier

#

of course, that's rather speculative, but as far as an original Ur-Dra goes (keeping in mind the title seems to be capable of changing hands), Nocturnal makes much more sense to me for that reason

#

after all, unknown must predate known

#

this would also tie into her status as Lady Luck:
shadows aren't just the literal absence of light, they're also kind of a point in which things are undecided because they're in multiversal conflict

... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.

Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.

With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.

Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.

  • First Scroll of Shadow
#

Shadow refers to so much more in TES than it does irl

#

but again, this doesn't even have to contradict with Namira being Ur-Dra!

golden sierra
warm herald
#

Time relies on movement and causes entropy, "simultaneously." There isn't a "before". Void, and then everything began.

Decay and shadow only exist secondarily to matter. Stuff rots, light gets blocked.

Simultaneity sounds right. Not Sure namira would fight about it, but nocturnal probably would.

#

Nocturnal: "I am ur dra!"
Namira: "sure, whatever."

olive saffron
golden sierra
#

in oldold lore we've been told there definitely were

#

but i'm pretty sure that predates numerology and all that

pastel sorrel
warm herald
#

Not to mention the magna ge star orphans. Meridia was one, then got exiled back into oblivion.

#

Would be neat to see more magna ge cultism.

#

Like, truly weird eldritch/alien/fey concepts and goals...

#

Forget black/white/gray morality, lets try on some blue/orange/zappa morality

split pond
#

Sheogorath?

warm herald
#

Nah. He's just mad.

junior mortar
#

If there is a elder scrolls game that takes place after Skyrim then who canonically won the civil war in Skyrim

olive saffron
#

We don't know

brisk perch
#

We do not know who won, nor how they would handle it, they could do pretty much anything they want with it if the next entry comes after TESV.

olive saffron
#

They could make one side win then reveal that was the bad choice and that side fails to stand against the Dominion or they could make both sides lose because some outside event or they could just dodge the entire thing and just not discuss it.

Hell they could do it KOTOR 2 style and let us decide in dialogue.

pastel sorrel
junior mortar
#

Ok

#

I am guessing this but does oblivion take place during the oblivion crisis I havnt played it yet so idk

pastel sorrel
#

TES1 was the Imperial Simulacrum, TES2 culminates in the Warp in The West, TES3 the Nerevarine Prophecy and fall of the Tribunal alongside Dagoth Ur, TES4 was the Oblivion Crisis.

junior mortar
#

I think I only guessed correctly because the name gave it away

junior mortar
golden sierra
#

well...

#

technically TES: Legends (specifically the narrator Kellen and all that) takes place after TES5 seeing as the Clockwork City DLC takes place concurrently to Skyrim, but it doesn't reveal any details, so it ultimately doesn't change that we have no answer currently

#

based on what BGS has historically done, it would make sense for them to leave it ambiguous so that it's up to the player, but we'll have to wait and see akkoShrug

tawdry birch
#

It’s the empire

olive saffron
#

Me when I lie

tawdry birch
olive saffron
#

The Stormcloak missive refers only to the Fort in question if that's what you're extrapolating to say Empire wins lol

#

tes fandom try not to blatantly lie challenge AdoringFan

#

More seriously, they still haven't confirmed anything, and I doubt they even will one way or the other when TES 6 actually releases.

warm herald
#

It would make sense that
Stormcloaks won
Dovahkiin becomes emperor
Dovahkiin and Ulfric reunite the Empire, ousting the Thalmor and granting more independent governance in Skyrim

#

So that both sides are technically victorious

olive saffron
#

They will never make Dovahkiin Emperor, because they don't like giving canon endings to the characters

#

There's also the fact that making the LDB Emperor would require giving them a canonical race because then future Dragonborn emperors will exist

#

Also, there's zero reason for LDB to be Emperor. The Amulet is sadly gone

warm herald
#

K. Dovahkiin acts as negotiator then wanders off; an end the Median dynasty abd a new line of emperors is spawned. Not really a big deal tbh

#

Both civil war outcomes are canon if the new empire negotiates reunification and fairer relations.

olive saffron
#

It's possible they could have TES 6 happen at the same time as TES 5

#

So they just dodge the entire question and leave us with another 10 years of arguing

sharp lantern
#

We'll have to wait and see what the other card descriptions say, because the Stormcloaks coming out on top seems incredibly unlikely to me.

olive saffron
robust lintel
junior mortar
#

I have a theory the thalmor are elves

#

It’s definitely never been confirmed

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
#

The Civil War remains unconfirmed.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
#

Especially if you're instead the grandkid which gives a freely-definable generation in the middle to work with regarding how you came to be.

olive saffron
pastel sorrel
#

The LDB isn't necessarily the only dragonborn out there.

#

Just the one that was in prime position to be utilized when Alduin showed up.

warm herald
#

Typically, gr8 heroes happen around the same time in several places at once. I wouldnt be surprised if there was an LDB khajiit and an LDB redguard and...

junior mortar
#

What does ldb mean

olive saffron
robust lintel
#

Can the elder scrolls themselves be broken down? Their essence seems potent.. and I'm curious what one could do with it's energy

pastel sorrel
robust lintel
#

And if they could be altered to adhere to whoever wants to change the past/future fate of something already written. Tho I figure that would take something pretty powerful to manipulate time and space like that, say if an elder scroll turned out to be the antagonist itself, fighting fate in a sense and whatever form it takes. Instead of it already being decided in a prophecy of an Elder scroll.

pastel sorrel
# 
—Zurin Arctus, the Underking```
robust lintel
#

I read that they see potentially a Flux of time of what could happen

pastel sorrel
#

That's explicitly what they do. Time is not set in stone, neither past nor future.

robust lintel
#

But even then, i'd like to go outside of that like there are more options than those offered by the scrolls. To do something even a scroll failed to see.

pastel sorrel
#

They see possibilities, and different readings can give different results, especially across different scrolls entirely

#

They don't fully agree until the fated hero actually establishes what happens themselves.

#

Add the various multiple timelines and multiversal shenanigans, and you see why the Moth Priests always have something to do.

#

Even at the best of times, time is a rope of many strands, not simply a line.

robust lintel
#

I can't remember was the prophecy about alduin and the dragonborn in a scroll or from elsewhere?

pastel sorrel
#

It's unclear. It originated either from an elder scroll, or the Tsaesci. There's claims for both.

robust lintel
#

See I never really liked the idea it was from a scroll even if it was.

#

That's kinda what started my idea on this whole discussion

#

In a way at least to me, the scrolls themselves almost seem of some sort highly-developed machine origin

#

And idk but maybe that could have something to do with how and why the dwemer were able to transcribe them

pastel sorrel
#

They're basically copies of copies. How they were made or how they function is unknown.

robust lintel
#

Is there a first or original elder scroll before all the others?

pastel sorrel
#

Possibly whatever's at the core of the Adamantine Tower.

#

It's been described as a scroll case in some UOL texts, after all.

robust lintel
#

Maybe. Or perhaps all the copies came simultaneously as odd as that might sound..

pastel sorrel
#

The divine nature of the scrolls makes it difficult if not impossible to really pin them down. They don't even exist in a countable form, they just pop in and out at will.

robust lintel
#

It's almost like an ai script or code written by something else dictating all the possibilities from beginning to end of its program.

#

Wonder if I could reverse engineer it to affect it's author instead

pastel sorrel
#

I doubt it's under any kind of control, it's just doing what it does

#

Even the gods themselves are ultimately governed by their natures.

#

Convention is as Convention does.

robust lintel
#

I kinda see them on different levels, some gods being higher than others

#

But surely the scrolls themselves have some master to be able to have the ability to do what they were designed to do

#

Just as we design things to carry out their functions thru the tools we provide that are needed to carry out whatever duty whether assisted or solo

pastel sorrel
#

Well sure, someone made them, but it's not quite clear who or why

#

They might be basically recordings for Magnus to take a look at during dragon breaks as was suggested in some UOL texts

#

with Mnemoli transporting them to him

#

Showing him what's going on in his creation in his absence

robust lintel
#

Idk, maybe eventually we'll do something that a scroll failed to forsee even as a possibility, and it will cause them to go berserk and overload and start zapping everyone out of existence lol..

pastel sorrel
#

I doubt it, the scrolls aren't infallible and never have been

#

They're just doing what they do as best they can. If something happens they couldn't account for, oh well, just keep recording from here.

#

Time is a mess even under stable Convention and within a single timeline, let alone all the parallel shenanigans and distortions from various factors.

#

and dragon breaks render any attempt moot anyway

robust lintel
#

Idk, my pride would be hit pretty hard if I was the only elder scroll to fail a prophecy check. Basically become the black sheep/scroll of the elder scrolls..

pastel sorrel
#

That's every single one of them, though

#

They all see possibilities. Not all possibilities come to pass.

#

We hear about the prophecies that came true, you don't hear about the ones that failed.

#

Especially also when some of those prophecies are self-fulfilling because they involve people who would want to see them fulfilled

robust lintel
#

Since you bring that up, I kinda like the idea of seeing what could of been as well

pastel sorrel
#

i.e. the LDB, of course Akatosh is going to want a dragonborn in place to deal with Alduin, who knows how many other dragonborn might be out there in dormancy since they weren't the ones in the right spot

#

and the Nerevarine, leave it to the Prince of Prophecy to make a prophecy she would personally ensure gets fulfilled in the first place.

#

Even the Tyranny of The Sun. Would Harkon've attempted to fulfil that prophecy if it hadn't been made in the first place?

#

The vase scene from The Matrix comes to mind.

robust lintel
#

I forget that scene will have to look later

pastel sorrel
#

The Oracle tells Neo not to worry about the vase. Neo's like "what vase" and turns, accidentally knocking a vase over. He asks how she knew that'd happen, she instead replies "what's really going to bake your noodle is, would you still've broken it if I haven't said anything?".

robust lintel
#

But thats interesting that prophecies don't always come to be. Heightens my interest in the elder scrolls themselves collectively failing to forsee at least one event or result.

robust lintel
#

The prophecy was simply a convenience

pastel sorrel
#

Well sure, but it was only through learning of the prophecy that he even knew how to fulfil it

robust lintel
#

Well fulfill his desire in that particular method.

pastel sorrel
#

Indicating a measure of determinism in the timeframe. Fate, essentially. But then you have the Prisoners who can make their own decisions.

#

And some like Sotha Sil who recognize the nature of fate and even foresee it ahead of time and know they're just going through the motions, unable to break free. He does what he does because he is what he is, and he is what he is because that's what he will do.

robust lintel
#

Still one of many set possibilities tho

#

But how does Sotha Sil recognize it and why not all?

pastel sorrel
#

Man was juiced up on divine power and was probably autistic, leave it to someone like him to think outside the box and see the box itself.

#

He knew he was in Plato's Cave, but could not leave. One might argue it was his fate to learn of his fate.

robust lintel
#

Makes sense

pastel sorrel
#

Hence part of why he's so taken with the Vestige in ESO. As a Prisoner, we're freed of the shackles he struggles with

#

We get to be a "maybe" when he's stuck with "definitely".

#

He's going through the motions and he knows he's going through the motions, and knowing he's doing it is itself part of going through them.

robust lintel
#

He's lost his sense of being in the distraction

pastel sorrel
#

On the contrary, I'd he knew himself all too well.

#

He knew he would do the things he was doing. He chose to do them, knowing he was always going to choose them anyway.

#

Rather, it's Almalexia and Vivec who had weaker senses of self. Almalexia bought into her own lies effortlessly, and Vivec sought escapism wanting to be everyone and everything but himself.

#

But Sil, he knew. That was part of the suffering, he knew and was resigned to his fate.

robust lintel
#

Some doors you can go freely back and forth thru and some you cannot go back thru once you open them and pass thru

pastel sorrel
#

Because of course he would still do as he did, even knowing he was going to do them.

#

The ultimate determinism, stuck forever in the future, just as Almalexia was forever stuck in the past and Vivec stuck in the present.

robust lintel
#

But then again he potentially could if he stopped being so self-defeating and recognized that as a part of his personality traits

pastel sorrel
#

Not necessarily. If you're fated to never rail against your fate even when you know about it, it's kinda hard to extricate yourself there.

#

It's not even just a TES thing, I can relate it to certain mental illnesses

#

Such a lack of executive function. You know you're doing it, but you still do it anyway.

robust lintel
#

To me, it's a state of mind and if he could bring himself to recognize that..

pastel sorrel
#

State of mind is easy to say for someone not in his position and state.

robust lintel
#

We know, what we tell ourselves we know, and then, it is so.

pastel sorrel
#

Especially since again, he strongly comes across as autistic in some form, or had otherwise made himself as such essentially through his self-modifications. Fundamentally someone who's neurodivergent is processing things in sometimes wildly different ways. Add on the comorbid shenanigans like ADD and depression and whatnot, and you have yourself a real tenuous situation

robust lintel
#

Makes for an interesting video game character indeed

pastel sorrel
#

He was never going to free himself of his fate. He was fated to be that way. He knew what he was and knew he would never be able to generate that spontaneous spark of free agency.

#

He would just continue doing what he did, working on his projects, striving for his goals.

robust lintel
#

That is one reality and unfortunately the one he solely accepts as his own

#

But perhaps it is what we wanted all along and the whole doomed to fate complex is just of his own manifestation and he is seeing it thru as desired

robust lintel
#

Ah well, there's always checkers ^_^

#

Anyway, time for bed. This one needs their beauty sleep

robust lintel
#

With the numerous amounts of mushrooms and mushroom-picking to do in TES, I'm suprised there isn't already some sort of hidden halleugenic mushroom race or creatures.. I looked, couldn't find anything besides mushroom beetles in TESO, which is a start, but not quite the same.

robust trout
robust lintel
#

Only if they bite you when you reach down to pick them

warm herald
#

Azura making a prediction and then plotting to make it so like a Bene Gesserit witch? Sounds par for the course. Daedra gonna daed.

gaunt bear
#

I’ve got a new question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

How would certain Daedric Princes react to the Inquisition? The two I am most interested in are Peryite and Jyggalag, since the Inquisition’s overall goal is to “restore order to a world gone mad”.

brittle cobalt
gaunt bear
brittle cobalt
gaunt bear
#

I also think that, while Sithis is basically unknowable to mortals, he/she/it has ordered Cicero and what’s left of the Dark Brotherhood to aid the Inquisition, both because of the old saying ‘It takes a thief…’, and partly because he/she/it doesn’t like being conflated with Dumat, the “Old God of Silence”.

normal horizon
#

lor

pastel sorrel
#

As for Jyggalag, it's unknown how we would respond since we've yet to see him doing stuff in the context of mortals

gaunt bear
normal horizon
#

more

gaunt bear
normal horizon
#

time and space?

gaunt bear
#

For now I will say this: Herma Mora has taken more than a passing interest in the Inquisition, not only because of Matthias (MY Dragonborn), but also because Maxwell Trevelyan, with Dorian, had, to quote from the game, “muddied the waters of time where the cliffs are Red, and altered its flow.”, which was normally supposed to be impossible.

gaunt bear
# normal horizon time and space?

The magic of the Anchor (||magic made to storm Heaven itself||) interacting with an Elder Scroll (||something that should not exist, yet has always existed||) is causing a few “conversion errors” between Thedas and Mundus, and it only took one conversion error to destroy the Mars Climate Orbiter.

normal horizon
#

inquitetiution conjistador

gaunt bear
normal horizon
#

you it

#

one😋

IMG_1985.webp
gaunt bear
robust lintel
split pond
pastel sorrel
#

Time and space are convoluted in Lordran Tamriel.

warm herald
#

Theyre convoluted irl. Time cannot exist without space (movement measured against movement, thus energy transfer and entropy), but the opposite is fine. Neither is more fundamental, however, as space came into being at the moment time did--cant have been before, there is no before. Very peculiar.

#

Sithis/Tharizdun/The Nowhere King/Nightmare King...not sure there is an analogue in Thedas.

gaunt bear
warm herald
#

OH TRUE. dumat. silence vs the chant, i dig it.

kinda fits with the tonal architects // lyrium folders

gaunt bear
#

During the planned ‘Shattered Memories’ chapter (where the Inquisitor and Dragonborn visit the past through certain mirrors, not Eluvians, while in the Fade) I have that Tarin (MY Nerevarine) and Aedan (MY Hero of Ferelden) discover that the original plan was to have liquid lyrium as coolant for the Anumidium.

warm herald
#

i like where this is going. can't wait to read it. 🙂

gaunt bear
#

Another thing I got down is from the prologue to the story proper:

Dagoth Gares was encountered at the Temple of Sacred Ashes because neither he nor Dagoth Ur knew if the Ashes could cure the effects of Corprus, but Tarin and Aedan interfere, causing Tarin to get Corprus. After healing Arl Eamon, Tarin and Aedan return to the temple, but the urn containing the ashes, which had remained pure, had disappeared.

robust lintel
#

Weird. After putting in a typo of "Aubris" instead of "Aurbis." I saw that Aubris means "Elf or magical being." o.o

burnt fossil
#

What if dwemer never banish but teleport to Yakoda insted and planing to
come back and retake what is rightfuly theres

#

Elder scrolls 6: Kings of Nirn

abstract ledge
#

We would know about them as yokuda is still around only in remnants and people still go there

pastel sorrel
#

^

#

Someone would've noticed if the Dwemer were around

burnt fossil
#

Dwemers are the devine then 🙃

gaunt bear
frigid willow
#

The dwemer are a fancy hat worn by a dead God

junior mortar
#

I have a question in the lore is yagrum bargarn dead in Skyrim if he is alive in Skyrim then the Dwemer are not extinct

junior mortar
#

Oh it’s just part of it

pastel sorrel
warm herald
#

I've thought it possible that the dwemer were displaced--lost in oblivion among the nebula known as Mephala's Web. Speculation is fun, and keeps it interesting. I'm not sure it would be in Bethesda's interest to ever answer the question of what happened, nor to bring the dwemer entirely back. A time-locked survivor, a vampire, just a stubborn ghost? Sure. But not the whole race.

robust lintel
#

He survived the extinction of his race, that dwarf will survive anything lol

robust lintel
#

That and I like to think about what their inclusion could add to the game as well if they were to come back. Would be nice to be able to build your own underground Dwemer house and tunnels. I guess it just depends on how one goes about bringing them back and in what way.. per say?

#

Would be interesting if one of their more advanced machine types started to seek out their master's spirits and possess them, possibly re-create the dwemer race from DNA as the dwemer created them. Or idk, maybe the Snow Elves/Falmer could have some sort of part to play as well

#

I just thought, as intelligent as the Dwemer were.. I would of thought they would have had some sort of backup plan before going on their quest, knowing what they were dealing with and it's power, as they must of figured something could go wrong.

warm herald
#

The best laid plans of mer and men will oft go awry.

robust lintel
#

Aye, which is why one must have many plans lol

warm herald
#

One would think a "wise" Dwemer would have unified the dwemer city-states in some fashion, refused to participate in the war, and so forth. Ah, well. Intelligence ain't all ya need to make good decisions.

robust lintel
#

I don't know about that, might be pretty unified right now lol ^_^ but I'd argue unifying one's race doesn't necessarily mean it's wise.

#

But true, they possessed more than just that

warm herald
#

Ambition, envy, pride, and apparently short-sightedness. ;)

robust lintel
#

I meant positive traits lol

warm herald
#

OH yeah. Good beards.

robust lintel
#

They are not a perfect species of course

#

Much of which you can find in any other species or race, so I wouldn't find it unlikely they didn't have any backup plans

warm herald
#

I'm curious now about the dwemer ghosts in vvardenfel. An anomaly? A temporally nonadjacent echo? Hmm

#

Their effective "opposites" we're the ayeleids, imo. They stuck around only to be genocided.

robust lintel
#

I always thought Ayeleids were means to an end

warm herald
#

Basically. They were terrible. And good at it.

robust lintel
#

It feels strange wandering around sometimes in some of these villages with hay for roofs and candles and then a dwemer ruin lol

#

Dwemer horse 😳

#

Probably horribly bumpy ride

pastel sorrel
#

You're assuming your conclusion.

warm herald
#

Yup

warm herald
pastel sorrel
warm herald
#

Nothing says they couldn't have; they didn't, that's all. Which was unwise.

#

I suspect Mephala's involvement, but I need to flesh that out a bit.

glacial scarab
glacial scarab
warm herald
#

True.

sick nacelle
#

fso saashi ❤️

ezgif-1-fafa01c840.gif Screenshot_20220815-171544.png vw.png
slender latch
#

Ther are two quests or instances relating to the Blades characters. Have you happened to play through them?

heady rune
#

Okay a little off topic, I came across Skyrim in real life guy? We made a joke on my server that this is what dinner at Toddbot's house is probably like. Lol. Then we found out some terrible stuff about that guy that ruined how funny it was.
Okay, putting aside the terrible stuff the Skyrim IRL guy did, I did turn it into a teaching moment about "Dramatic Irony".

In it he plays General Tullius who says: "You speak of Dragons as if I don't have an entire hold of solitude to look after. I don't have time for fairytales."

I found this highly amusing and really funny if that was an actual quote a writer put in the game dialogue. Was it?

Further, what other examples of subtle literary devices (easter eggs is the new buzzword for this, I think) in the game did you find cool, did you find amusing or name something subtle a writer did to entertain you or point you to a better understanding of the games lore?

gaunt bear
heady rune
#

I have no idea what you're talking about?

#

Did you respond to the wrong comment?

heady rune
#

Just bought both Elder Scrolls books! Infernal City and Lord of Souls. Thoughts?

gaunt bear
abstract ledge
#

They just bought the book. Summaries are available online.

proven moss
#

I'd like to see more novels, maybe from different writers, published in the future.

#

Some of the lore they introduced is certainly interesting, and I've used evidence from them before for things. But I don't think there were any huge lore implications from both novels. Very interesting tidbits though.

heady rune
#

Well, I will let you know my thoughts. Isnt this what the game is based on?

#

This shoddycast lore thing is pretty good as far as elder scrolls and skyrim. Not so great for fallout

#

Much more satisfied with the skyrim lore shoddy cast

pastel sorrel
#

Red Year, the Penitus Oculatus, etc.

heady rune
#

Gotcha

regal sail
#

anyone know a good youtuber that has a long playlist of about an hour videos on elder scrolls lore?
One that is not "TheEpicNate315" due to me already watching all of his

half stump
# regal sail anyone know a good youtuber that has a long playlist of about an hour videos on ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jCNpkRjaXo

YouTube
Imperial Knowledge
The History of Tamriel - Introduction to Elder Scrolls Lore

Today I give you a summary of Tamriel's History with an overview of the Elder Scrolls Timeline where I explain the different eras. I also go over the basics for people really new to Elder Scrolls Lore.

You can use the timestamps of this video to skip certain parts if you already know much about the period in question.

Reccomended videos:
Topa...

▶ Play video
regal sail
#

Thanks.

#

If I click play all, this gives me plenty of content to listen to while I play muted games or read stuff :D

uncut hatch
#

Kwama Foragers are parasites

Agree or disagree?

sharp lantern
#

Disagree? They're literally foragers.

uncut hatch
#

Kirkbride concept art

pastel sorrel
#

the TES3-style symbiosis doesn't mean they're separate species, just different morphologies then working together.

brisk perch
#

I do not think parasitism applies when they're the same species

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
#

Kwama Foragers are also canonically not larva

#

Scribs are the larva

pastel sorrel
#

Yes, but notice even the scribs don't super resemble the other morphologies

uncut hatch
#

Kwama Workers

#

Kwama Workers look more like Scribs than Kwama Foragers

pastel sorrel
#

Kwama are, fundamentally, Weird Bugs™️. They come in different forms and form symbiotic relationships with each other.

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

The workers/warriors, scribs and foragers are all markedly different in their original presentation, but they're all kwama.

#

And even post-ESO we've seen the foragers in a Legends card, and they remain fairly unchanged from their old look.

#

ESO unified their aesthetic aside from the foragers, but they're still Weird Bugs™️ at their core.

uncut hatch
#

In dunmeri Guar is a blanket name, it’s possible that Kwama is as well

In Legends the Kwama Queen uses the ESO design, there’s no Forager face

pastel sorrel
#

Actually that is essentially a forager face, though thickened up a good bit

#

since look at the forager card

unknown.png
uncut hatch
#

Disagree, there is no host worm

pastel sorrel
#

Also that Legends card for the queen specifically isn't the ESO design, it's much more reminiscent of the TES3 design

#

This is the ESO design

unknown.png
uncut hatch
#

And this is the original

pastel sorrel
#

Head's all different, whereas the Legends card has it as a thicc forager reminiscent of the TES3 design

#

It's possible they're two entirely different evolutions of the kwama. It wouldn't be the first species from TES3 to show up differently in ESO because it's actually not the same species per se.

#

ESO's cliff striders would then become the cliff racers of TES3, since ESO's cliff racers are markedly a different species.

uncut hatch
#

It is actually so I’ll agree with you on the different species part. There’s an ESO quest explaining the different species

pastel sorrel
#

So in ESO's time, potentially the workers and queens and such are their own wholly separate kwama morphologies, whereas by TES3 they've become reliant on the foragers to inhabit the bodies.

#

Wonder if it was an intentional breeding process to limit their spread

uncut hatch
#

Feels a lot like some Telvanni wizard made some worm so I’ll agree on the breeding. In lore dunmer breed a lot of different looks for animals

pastel sorrel
#

Or as the land got more screwed up by the Blight and such, the foragers became more and more necessary over the centuries just naturally, perhaps shifting the balance that way.

#

Dagoth Ur stole our grass, can't have s'wit in Vvardenfell.

uncut hatch
#

I like that one too

It feels like nobody I know can find a definite answer though. We’re all just speculating on what we’re given in books and games. I love bringing up the debate and seeing everyone’s ideas but I’m always hoping there’s a book or something somewhere

I’m always waiting on someone to be like “Yeah the exact answer is in the book (xyz)”

I’m gunna have to bug Kirkbride

balmy salmon
#

I always found it odd how something as small as the Kwama Foragers could be expected to feed a nest full of the much larger Workers and Warriors.

pastel sorrel
#

Ostensibly there's a bunch of foragers out and about lore-wise.

split pond
#

Have firearms or cannons been invented in Nirn yet?

balmy salmon
#

Cannons have been mentioned before, and one appears in card art in Legends

chilly spoke
pastel sorrel
#

There's also Dwemer constructs with cannons, mortars, even missiles.

pastel sorrel
#

Gunpowder and cannons exist in TES and have been both referenced and directly shown on multiple occasions, but they keep getting swept off to the side even though they're literally a standard-issue component of the latter timeframes TES draws from.

#

Logically they would've been developed further by now, enhanced by magic like other siege equipment are, even scaled down to develop handcannons and early muskets or even flintlocks.

#

Imagine enchanted incendiary rounds, or electric buckshot arcing between close targets that were hit by it

split pond
#

I now have the lore-friendly rifles of Skyrim mod and I'm loving it.

white blaze
#

Thats cool as heck, if cannons exists, along with all the dwemer weaponry, I dont see why we can't have at least muskets n blunderbuss by the time we get TES6. especially if that stuff is magically enhanc

sharp lantern
#

It'd kind of ruin the classic fantasy trope imo

jovial tendon
#

Plenty of fantasy settings, including those used in Dungeons & Dragons have some forms of firearms

#

However, with dwemer technology, I feel like stuff like repeating crossbows would be more of their vibe

#

For example, Ed Greenwood (the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting for Dungeons & Dragons) would have added firearm technology in Forgotten Realms (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elminster, etc.), but the higherups at TSR didn't want it, and thus gunpowder doesn't work in it

#

But there are firearms in Forgotten Realms that use smokepowder

#

Dragonlance has firearms as well

gaunt bear
balmy salmon
#

I wasn't aware that anyone could override Ed Greenwood on Forgotten Realms.

jovial tendon
pastel sorrel
sharp lantern
white blaze
#

I dont see how or why you think that.

#

This server has horrid auto-mod

sharp lantern
#

Simple. They'd either be a one-shot kill or be hella inaccurate. Barring that, why would TES have need for it when there is already magic to do the job?

white blaze
#

Alternatives

#

Variety is the spice of life

#

By your logic, why do we have bows and crossbows?

#

And lore-wise, not everyone can cast spells, or wants to

sharp lantern
#

Not the same. Crossbows and bows still use the same principle. Crossbows were just more accessible.

#

The earliest guns were inaccurate as hell, it makes no sense to have individuals use them unless in part of an army. But we already have mages fulfilling that role in armies.

#

So where is the motivation to spend time and resources developing guns?

white blaze
#

Ok, to each their own. Personally, I can see a plethora of ways, rhymes and reasons for guns to be in the next ES

sharp lantern
#

Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

white blaze
#

Just because they can is 1 reason

#

I can see a plethora of reasons

sharp lantern
#

Even the isolated depiction that we have of a cannon features a mage - indicating that even the cannons we have function with magic. Why add a gun when wizards are the ones who would fire it?

#

What is the benefit of a gun to a fireball?

white blaze
#

Reading what @pastel sorrel and @jovial tendon said above may help you find the answers you are looking for.

sharp lantern
#

Neither of them explain the initial reasoning for developing the weapon.

#

In our world it was to deal with knights in strong armor - but we already have wizards for that in TES.

Why spend time and resources on an inaccurate boomstick when you could instead use said resources on training new wizards who can also fight on their own?

jovial tendon
#

Not everyone is a wizard

#

Also for example in Forgotten Realms, which is arguably the most well known D&D setting, there was the Spellplague, which basically made magic not work at all

white blaze
#

lets look at the stormcloak army, for one. Nords are heavily biased against magic usage, ofc the army still has mages but that is far from what they focus on. From their perspective, you'd want archers n such too, so you can still have range when you dont have mages. Guns would simply be a more powerful extension of the already availiable non-magic ranged weaponry

jovial tendon
#

Also, those kinds of settings have tons of magic immune monsters, and items that make you immune to magic, and so on

#

If firearms are useless, then bows and crossbows are as well 🤷‍♂️

white blaze
#

exactly lol

#

but "its not the same"

#

guns like muskets, flinlocks and bunderbuss would all just be more beefy, militarized versions of the bows n crossbows that are already in circulation

white blaze
#

even saw someone say they have missiles, lol

jovial tendon
#

Ocean combat without cannons in Elder Scrolls though, imagine that

#

I suppose they could use ballistae

white blaze
sharp lantern
white blaze
#

i bet the deadra are behind it

#

smh my head

sharp lantern
#

And, I repeat, the main reason in our world why guns became common was because they could penetrate armor. Such a technological advancement was because of warfare.

As I have stated prior, with nearly every army in Tamriel having wizards of some capacity, the need to research a new way to defeat armored enemies from a distance is practically non existant.

white blaze
#

well i aint a gun nut, so i dont know much about the history of rifling n such, but in m mind, if there's even a semblance of "guns" in TES, then i just think "why not". There's cannons? why cant they just shrink the cannons for handheld purposes? it'd be fun

pastel sorrel
# sharp lantern And, I repeat, the main reason in our world *why* guns became common was because...

Good full-plate was actually still bulletproof for a good couple centuries, it's where the term bulletproof comes from. Early equivalents to handguns for instance were specifically meant for point-blank range, fired directly into the armor for the best chance of penetration, because at range it was a lot less likely plus you then have the accuracy issues.

That said, the big thing was that not everyone was that heavily armored. Full plate's expensive, and the reason it finally died out was because given the evolving nature of warfare as well as the societies involved, it became far more economical to just lightly armor the whole army than to try and pile on more and more armor on just a few to keep up with the improving capabilities of firearms.

jovial tendon
#

I'm all for realistic settings being realistic, but if it's a fantasy setting, with fantasy creatures, magic and magical monsters, fireballs and lightning bolts, then does it have to have such a realistic reasoning for something to exist

#

I feel like if rules of realism go out the window with magic and elves and orcs and werewolves and whatnot, then they don't really need to apply to much else either

#

So if a fantasy setting has guns, it just has guns because it has guns and that's the vibe, and that's pretty much all there is

pastel sorrel
#

Basis of the question is flawed. This isn't about it being fantastical, this is about it being internally logical, which is key even to fantasy.

#

The existence of orcs and dragons doesn't somehow preclude the concept of guns, those aren't even remotely related to one another nor how they function

#

It's established that most people can't really do much magic, maybe equivalents to D&D cantrips if anything at all. True capability takes time and effort even if you have the talent for it.

#

But also just the same, why do archers exist if mages exist? It's the same question.

jovial tendon
#

Well, to each their own, plenty of fantasy settings out there that have gunpowder weapons and they're not worse off for it

#

I'm not saying I need guns in Skyrim but if in Elder Scrolls 6 there were oceanfaring ships with cannons on board, and people with flintlock pistols and muskets, I wouldn't care one bit

pastel sorrel
#

The thing with firearms is, they take far less training than bows, which is part of why they became so popular. Warbows can take a long time to train with due to their heavy draw weight, and many archers were training since childhood to get to a good level of competency.

#

But massed muskets, you just give the gunners a couple of weeks and they're off to war, much like with crossbows.

#

If guns were developed now in TES, they might have more of an uphill battle, but there's still plenty of people who aren't in the kind of heavy armor that would defeat them. Especially with the fall of the Mages Guild which had such a monopoly across Tamriel for so long, some places might be more inclined to develop their physical technology rather than develop a true replacement institution for the Mages Guild.

pastel sorrel
#

It's not a matter of "guns and cannons don't fit TES", because objectively they exist in TES in a capacity that logically should make them widespread in the literal millennia they've been studied.

#

They might not fit the original aesthetic, but the aesthetic doesn't actually gel with the lore provided.

white blaze
golden sierra
split pond
#

How pissed were the Thalmor with the peace treaty during Season Unending? Being that it forced the Empire and the Stormcloaks into a ceasefire, which is the last thing they want.

#

On a related note, how long did you think the peace treaty lasted after Alduin was killed? Like, did the two sides immediately return to killing each other as soon as news about Alduin's death reached them?

gaunt bear
dapper river
#

I don’t typically do SU if I'm going to play through the actual main quest and I intend to go through with the CW stuff, since SU slightly screws with a couple of those quests.

split pond
#

If the Dragonborn hadn't shown up, would the Thalmor be able to deal with Alduin, Potema, Harkon, and/or Miraak?

white blaze
#

No

floral light
# white blaze No

I mean in a way Ancano would solve a few of those problems by blowing up most of Skyrim,

pastel sorrel
#

That's why it's called as such. Its normal attack is the elemental blast, but it fires off the cannon as a period AOE ability.

pastel sorrel
floral light
#

Except Miraak would actually probably go ahead and deal with him if he had too, it's made very clear he was out of Alduin's league before millennia if additional training and knowledge, he just saw Alduin as beneath his notice,

pastel sorrel
#

He wasn't gonna be getting out in time to stop Alduin unless Mora let him out himself.

floral light
#

Alduin is going to need time Miraak in no way needed us, he was coming back regardless,

golden sierra
#

i did find a mine that did magic damage on one of the uniques, but that was it

ocean brook
#

soooo, the Skyrim expansion makes your PC's efforts in the main quest irrelevant, because the big baddie for Dragonborn would have stopped the big baddie for Skyrim on their own?

pastel sorrel
ocean brook
#

well, now I feel all superferlous 😛

floral light
#

Miraak didn't need you, and that was already a problem in the main quest, between the blades and the failures from the past you felt barely more relevant then in oblivion's main quest, which is hilarious given you are an actual honest to Azura chosen one for the first time in the series,

dapper river
#

Miraak literally could not leave Apocrypha unless he used you or Mora suddenly decided to release him. So no, he couldn’t have dealt with Alduin.

#

Alduin would have destroyed Nirn unless Mora could be bothered to let Miraak leave Apocrypha.

worthy shore
#

thinking about how i cant complete the vampire lord questline made me wonder... is there any significance to one being having THREE elder scrolls at any given time. (im aware their literally just mcguffins) but this seems super unheard of as far as my own knowledge of the series goes

rocky lion
#

in oblivion you see a tower full of them

worthy shore
#

i mean yeah but you dont actively have them and even that one gets taken away from you if memory serves

rocky lion
#

you get it back

#

moth priests have all the uncovered ones basically

#

individual moth priests can read many of them

#

they also tend to go blind

worthy shore
#

i suppose i more meant someone as... unique as the dragonborn? or i mean the player character

pastel sorrel
#

not exactly common for someone to have that many in their possession, but that's it

worthy shore
#

i mean for them to have them be in the foretold visions of the scroll while maintaining their sight and sanity

#

it feels like the dragonborn rolled nat 20s at surviving the readings and whats funnier is you can try to read them again and get nothing from them which in of that is odd

white blaze
#

We call that plot

#

🤷

worthy shore
#

i mean yeaaah but surely it would be recorded in the dawngarurd or even the vampires depending on waht side if not both due dragon breaks

rocky lion
#

they dont use dragon breaks like that

#

the end of dawnguard is likely inconsequential to the overall thing

vocal needle
#

I mean in the grand scheme of things the empire doesn't bat an eye at the revolution truly in skyrim and thats a whole country in tamriel. I doubt moth priests will care about a few dragon scrolls. And doubt they are truly that powerful. My question is what's more wild. 3 elder scrolls? Or 15 DAEDRIC artifacts? (Massively underpowered in game according to lore)

rocky lion
#

daedric artifacts go where they want to

#

them all going to an individual isnt unheard of

vocal needle
#

Worded that poorly I think the elder scrolls are overhyped.

#

Well true but only the player character as far as lore concerns

rocky lion
#

they can teach you anything

#

knowledge is power to an extreme in the tes universe its safer then the oghma infinium for your mine

vocal needle
#

The elder scrolls like was said before were all in a tower that the moth priests have. The daedric artifacts I only have ever seen all in one place with player characters

rocky lion
#

the oghma can be used to know how to properly use artifacts

vocal needle
#

That's why I think the elder scrolls are overhyped. Yes knowledge is power but also they tend to mess up the readers.

rocky lion
#

how does the player use mehrunes razor or skeleton key

vocal needle
#

The game tells you?

rocky lion
#

so does the oghma its possible to find ways to safely read elderscrolls

vocal needle
#

Yes im not saying that

rocky lion
#

but the oghma nearly always makes people go mad

vocal needle
#

I've beaten the games I understand that

rocky lion
#

using the mysteriums xarxes which is transcribed from the infinium mankar eas able to use mehrunes razor to turn himself into a dragonborn to wear the amulet of kings

vocal needle
#

Just saying the elder scrolls I think are overhyped in comparison to daedric artifacts that are just heavily nerfed in the games. Off of lore all are incredibly powerful and important.

rocky lion
#

an elderscroll in oblivion was used to turn back an event in time and change the present without anyone knowing

vocal needle
#

Yea so in varying games elder scrolls vary just like the daedric artifacts

rocky lion
#

which also messed with a daedric lord

#

because each scroll is different

vocal needle
#

But the scrolls aren't always that important

rocky lion
#

theyve also only appeared in 2 games

vocal needle
#

I understand

rocky lion
#

but theyre the reason the emperor chose you in morrowind

vocal needle
#

So they are mentioned in more than 2

rocky lion
#

i said they appeared in 2

vocal needle
#

I know they exist fully in the lore between all games but aren't necessarily in them.

rocky lion
#

they had brief mentions at best beforehand

vocal needle
#

They appear in skyrim and oblivion

#

And have been mentioned in more than 2

#

I understand you said they appeared in 2 idk why you felt the need to Reiterate

#

I think they are set in games to do exactly what the lore says. But daedric artifacts don't even come close to lore.

#

IMO I think they are just underpowered for balancing purposes. But man would it be cool to use lore accurate artifacts

#

Correction: Wabbajack is 100% lore accurate

rocky lion
#

how would you use most daedric artifacts

#

their abilities are all abstract

worn rover
#

daedric artefacts in lore are op

abstract ledge
#

Oblivion tg, skyrim mq and dg, eso pvp, and blades

golden sierra
# worthy shore thinking about how i cant complete the vampire lord questline made me wonder... ...

you're a Prisoner. tbh i think that's significant enough to justify the potential of ridiculously unlikely things happening to them in general. fate is a real, if plastic, thing in TES, and the Prisoner is tied into it by his very nature

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy.
But without the hero,
there is no Event."
-Zurin Arctus | the Underking

  • Morrowind's intro
    it's very possible it simply amounts to: your Event happened to require those three Elder Scrolls, so your Hero managed to obtain them
white blaze
#

Schrödingers event

#

Something like that 🤷

golden sierra
# worthy shore i mean for them to have them be in the foretold visions of the scroll while main...

our usual tendency of reading the Scrolls, yet getting no information from it seems to line up with the description of "naifs" given by Effects of the Elder Scrolls

For one who has received no training in the history or nature of the Elder Scrolls, the scroll itself is, effectively, inert. No prophecy can be scried nor knowledge obtained. While the scroll will not impart learning to the uninformed, nor will it afflict them in any adverse fashion. Visually, the scroll will appear to be awash in odd lettering and symbols. Those who know their astronomy often claim to recognize constellations in the patterns and connections, but such conjecture is impossible to further investigate since the very nature of this study necessitates unlearned subjects.
however, this doesn't quite map perfectly with our ability to glean information from the Scrolls in the situations we do. the one at the Throat of the World is easily enough waved away by the fact there's a Time Wound there. it seems quite different from usual readings of the Scroll, perhaps an interaction between the Wound and the Scroll which we just happened to witness.

however, this still leaves the question of the situation in the Ancestor Glade. it seems to most closely match the fourth group described in Effects of the Elder Scrolls, or perhaps the third, but doesn't quite seem to perfectly match any of them. i'll link the book so you may more easily read it, as i don't feel like pasting 3 or 4 more paragraphs of text that's already easily accessible into this already long message. in either case, the moths are very likely involved in at least some other moth priests' readings of the scrolls, based on Dexion's dialogue. anyways, Dexion suggests that we won't go blind thanks to fate, which is (perhaps frustratingly) close to the reason we seem to get so many Elder Scroll in the first place, and (perhaps even more frustratingly) close to the "because plot" answer that justifies it irl

You've come this far, and you've found several Elder Scrolls. Whether you believe it or not, the scrolls have a mind of their own. If they didn't want you to find them, they wouldn't allow it. Because of this, I strongly believe you were meant to hear the ancestral chorus. Only one way to find out."

  • Dexion Evicus
    however, Dexion also does tell us that the moths are a very important part in their proper readings:

Moths barely make a sound, let alone speak. "Oh, the moths don't literally read the scrolls... but they maintain a connection to ancient magic that allows the Moth Priests to decipher them. If you listen closely when you find the glade, you should be able to hear their song... a soft, harmonious trilling. It's through this ancestral chorus that the moths tap into a form of primal augur and become a conduit of deciphering the scrolls."
How does that help the Moth Priest? "By having the Ancestor Moth close to the Moth Priest, they can utilize the conduit and share the moth's augury. Only the most resilient of priests can do it this way... it takes years of practice to interpret the harmony."

#

ultimately, this just provides context and potential answers, not an actual answer akkoShrug hopefully it satisfies your curiosity or helps you come to your own conclusion

golden sierra
#

or at least, the way the Elder Scrolls show it

#

"The only certainty regarding Elder Scrolls I have ever heard is that they hold great power and are often used for prophecy. Yet I cannot help but wonder... have there ever been any events that have contradicted an Elder Scroll without having been foretold in another Elder Scroll? If so, how did such a phenomenon occur? Was it brought on by mortal intervention? Divine intervention? If such an event has never happened, do you believe there is any such thing as true freedom? Or are we all slaves to fate?" - Drafo

Sister Terran Arminus says, "This is a good question with which to start, for answering it enables me to address some misconceptions about the Elder Scrolls that are common among the … er … commoners. The Scrolls are often described as tools of prophecy—indeed, 'the Aedric Prophecies' is another name for them in some quarters—but the fact that the Scrolls speak of future events is merely a side-effect of their intrinsic nature. The Scrolls tell of our future because they are woven into that future—as well the present, and the past, and every other aspect of this reality we call the Mundus. It is a mistake to think that events prophesized in the Scrolls are fixed and unchangeable; again and again we in the Order of the Ancestor Moth have seen the prophecies alter as the future changes in response to the acts of mortals. Future events foretold in the Scrolls may be deemed likely to occur, so likely as to seem almost certain—but no event is fixed in the Scrolls until it actually happens."

  • Moth Sister Terran Arminus Answers Your Questions

until the Scrolls observe it, it is uncertain

#

Urag offers a very, very similar, but not quite identical bit of insight:

The simplest way to put it is "knowledge," but there's nothing simple about an Elder Scroll. It's a reflection of all possible futures and all possible pasts. Each reader sees different reflections through different lenses, and may come away with a very different reading. But at the same time, all of it is true. Even the falsehoods. Especially the falsehoods.
this rabbit hole goes way deeper, but it's a very interesting topic

split pond
#

Elder Scrolls are indestructible, right?

#

Can the Dragonborn use it to bludgeon someone to death?

jovial tendon
#

Well, the scroll cases definitely look like they've made out of some kind of metal, so that should work

upper field
#

Makes me wonder why you would do this...unless you're devoted to Uncle Sheogorath.

jovial tendon
#

Well, maybe that's the only thing the person has and they get attacked

#

Maybe they're a librarian at the Elder Scrolls Library

split pond
jovial tendon
#

Wearing nothing but robes, no weapons on hand, and get accosted by a khajiit thief...there's an Elder Scroll with it's hefty scroll case that they can reach and bam, kitty gets knocked out

split pond
#

A Nord, like everyone's favorite Dragonborn.

upper field
#

inb4 your Dragonborn is a Breton.

#

Was there a character in Elder Scrolls insert title who attempted to use something to try and become a Dragonborn?

sharp lantern
upper field
#

Ah okay.

#

ty

sand sequoia
glossy girder
#

Small question... Both Alduin and Dragonborns are fragments of Akatosh's soul, right ? As such... Technically, are you just fighting yourself ?

jolly grail
#

Name the mod Elder Scrolls Thumping

gaunt bear
ember mountain
solid path
#

It's not impossible to have a new interpretation of an entity - or someone seeking to become the new interpretation - end up battling the old one for the position.

glossy girder
ember mountain
upper field
#

So how much power is generally required to destroy a Daedric artifact permanently?

#

Because on one hand you have Fearstruck, which was destroyed back in the First Era.

#

But on the other hand you have Umbra, which was destroyed at the end of Umbriel in the 4th Era, but resurfaced years later in Skyrim.

solid path
#

As I understand it, you can't destroy a Daedric artefact permanently unless the owner (i.e. the Daedric prince) decides not to recreate it.

upper field
#

Gotcha.

#

Guess Boethiah doesn't care for his/her shield. XD

#

...although I question why Clavicus Vile would recreate Umbra after what happened.

floral light
#

Other princes may have done it, Mephala Molag Boethia and Dragon all fit with Umbras deal, and may have thought it was to much fun to cease to exist,

upper field
#

Maybe. lol

solid path
#

Umbra... is a bit special. It might be a semi-independent Daedric entity of its own now.

upper field
#

I really need to read the books.

split pond
#

Are there Aedra that aren't the Nine/Eight Divines?

obtuse summit
#

Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzarine?

#

Magnus

#

Y'ffre

#

If you refering to nine divines from imperial cult.

split pond
#

Sorry, I meant to ask Aedra that aren't the top dogs, like how there are Daedric dukes that are a step below the Princes.

obtuse summit
#

well there's demigod like morihaus

#

i don't think there's kinda hierarchy of aedra.

split pond
#

Demigods count, thanks.

sharp lantern
#

The Shezarrine is an individual, not a god.

upper field
#

Random question. Are size-changing spells a thing in Elder Scrolls lore?

obtuse summit
upper field
#

Maybe, but then again nothing is ever easy about magic in Elder Scrolls.

solid path
#

I don't know. Killing the guard stood next to your target seems really easy...

sharp lantern
obtuse summit
#

Oh didn't know that, i thought clockwork city is somewhere in pocket dimension of oblivion

gusty ferry
#

duck

gaunt bear
pastel sorrel
upper field
#

🤔

rocky lion
#

the clockwock city is inside nirn

sharp lantern
royal coral
obtuse summit
#

Duckinborn

pastel sorrel
sharp lantern
upper field
sharp lantern
#

Yes

upper field
#

Neat.

robust lintel
#

Lore Master M'aiq

upper field
#

M'aiq wishes you well.

obtuse summit
#

Maiq is tired now. Go bother somebody else.

#

Hmm what if psijic thrown eye of magnus to the past and destroy winterhold became like present day skyrim.

rocky lion
#

why would they do that

ember mountain
#

Any thoughts about the modern day Worm Cult? Might they have the same hierarchy as in Oblivion (like each cell being a Worm Nest)?

tribal thistle
#

They’re lizards

obtuse summit
#

too much hist sap perhaps.

cyan pumice
#

🤓

regal thistle
#

They don’t lay eggs, since they’re a humanoid creature, they possess human-like things

pastel sorrel
regal thistle
#

Oh?

pastel sorrel
#

They can give birth to live young, but they can also lay eggs. Argonians come in various forms and can change over time.

regal thistle
#

Well nords like boobs so there ya go 💀

regal thistle
pastel sorrel
#

Their morphology's even more wack than the Khajiit.

#

Changing sex, changing reproduction methods.

#

Plus the various different subspecies that make them up.

regal thistle
#

Hey it’s fiction and imo, they handled it well. Subspecies are cool

pastel sorrel
#

Fundamentally they're lizards in origin, but the Hist have modified them quite a bit and continue to do so.

#

They're uplifted quite a ways beyond their ancestors.

#

They are whatever the Hist needs them to be.

regal thistle
#

Evolution is a hell of a drug, but the hist also let them reverse deadra portals so not a long shot.

pastel sorrel
#

Argonian boobs is likely because of the other mortal races, it helps make them seem that bit more relatable.

#

Easier to integrate when you look somewhat like the other group, after all.

regal thistle
#

Also, the lusty argonian maid wouldn’t exist without argonian boobs

pastel sorrel
#

The finest work of fiction of all.

regal thistle
#

Fiction upon fiction

sharp lantern
solid path
#

That's what they want you to think

ember mountain
brisk perch
#

If I remember correctly, Mannimarco succeeded in becoming a god as a result of the Warp in the West, and the one we face in Oblivion may or may not be the real one, or just an avatar.

ember mountain
pastel sorrel
#

The virgin mortal Mannimarco, the chad divine Moonimarco.

gaunt bear
#

Dragonborn, on the idea of a resurrected Worm Cult: Oh, boy. Here I go killin’ again.

ember mountain
gaunt bear
ember mountain
gaunt bear
sharp lantern
sharp lantern
#

It's even from the same conversation that you quoted:

#

*''Fie! We beseech you. Darken this gem so that we may use its powers to **restore The Order of the Black Worm.*The Order shall rise. Grant us this power so that in your name we may vanquish our enemies."

obtuse summit
#

black soul gem is no longer that rare in 4E ? 😮

sharp lantern
#

🤷

ember mountain
ember mountain
sharp lantern
mellow grotto
#

Speaking of Mannimarco, we all know he became the Revenant but it's not really known what his end goal is supposed to be. Someone as ambitious as him wouldn't become a literal celestial body just to orbit his greatest enemy, in fact it's not even known if he's actually orbiting anything.

Arkay the Enemy states that his end goal is to strike the name Arkay from the records and become the new god that holds sway over life and death. I believe that the Necromancer's Moon is no moon at all, and similar to Baar Dau, it's actually an asteroid heading straight towards the planet Arkay.

Mannimarco might be planning on using his celestial body to collide with the planet Arkay while using the power of his Mantella to erase Arkay from existence. Mannimarco then replaces Arkay's position as the Aedra of life and death through mantling, achieving what he promised in Arkay the Enemy.

sharp lantern
#

We do know that there is something going on in the universe to cause the Necromancer's Moon. Of course, there is a question: are the Planets the Aedra themselves, or are they just named after the Aedra?

mellow grotto
# sharp lantern We do know that there is *something* going on in the universe to cause the Necro...

I think Shivering Isles gave us the answer to that. At the end of the Shivering Isles main quest, the Hero of Kvatch replaces Jyggalag as the prince of madness, and it's heavily implied that Sheogorath in Skyrim was the HoK. It's also demonstrated that after the HoK becomes the prince of madness, they gained new powers that only functioned in the Shivering Isles. It seems that the composition of the Aedra/Daedra is a planet and an avatar, but the former appears to be the source of their power.

#

Gong back to Mannimarco, there's an implication in Skyrim that the Necromancer's Moon has gotten stronger as a god. Previously in Oblivion, Black Soul Gems could only be created through special altars that harnesses the light of the Revenant when it's blocking planet Arkay. In Skyrim, it's just a prayer to the Revenant and a sacrifice, no altar required.

robust lintel
#

I know we explore on land alot in Tamriel, even caves. But do we ever really get to explore what's under the continent itself? Deep waters or beyond that even?

#

And what's the core made out of

sharp lantern
#

There was a big fissure in Chorrol during the Alliance War which showed a lot of lava, so... probably somewhat similar to our core? Idk.

solid path
mellow grotto
solid path
#

Seems to be functional whenever you turn up with the relevant gems.

balmy salmon
#

The Intercept also claims that the Daedra Princes created their planes using creatia.

split pond
#

What do you think was discussed at the meeting?

obtuse summit
#

probably how to stabilized mundus 🙂 daedra princes not invited tho

shell basin
#

Theory: Rorik of Rorikstead is actually a very old and well-disguised vampire, and has founded and re-founded his town several times over the centuries, as a "farm" for himself (and he is very responsible with it, not killing anyone or turning any people into vampires, a bit like House Ravenwatch of the Second Era.)

The current incarnation of the town, founded within the living memory of Skyrim in the Fourth Age after the Great War against the Aldmeri Dominion, is only the most recent of many (even the mention of "Old Rorikstead" in "Ragnar the Red" suggests this): various versions of the town are known to have existed back as early as the First Age in which it was definitively "Rorik's Steading", so both its first incarnation and its most current incarnation were founded by a Rorik... Hence my theory that it is, in fact, the same Rorik.

Every so often, he gets exposed as a vampire, and bumped off by some well-meaning "hero". And without his protection, something happens to the town, it fails or gets razed or abandoned.... And then, possibly years or decades later, somebody spills blood in the wrong place (or possibly, learning of Rorik's secret and realising the importance of his connection with this part of the land, the right place, on purpose), and Rorik is back, and works his way into the graces of the newest Jarl of Whiterun, earns a grant of land, and re-founds his village. He is, after all, its protector, and keeps his side of the unspoken contract with his town, which flourishes while he is there, and fails in his absence.

(And the fact that the site was occupied, during the Imperial Simulacrum, by a village named "Lainalten", can be explained by the possibility that this village was not founded by Rorik, during some time when he was spending some time dead, but by some well-meaning other person who thought there was room for a town there. And it didn't last, being either razed or abandoned at some point after the events of the Simulacrum...)

burnt vapor
#

Ooh I like the theory

#

I wonder if House Ravenwatch is going in 4E. If by any chance ESVI was in High Rock (it likely won’t be) it would be cool to see them and Verandis if he is still alive.

shell basin
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Given the fate of Verandis after "Markarth" in ESO - now tied to the Dark Heart under Greymoor - I doubt he will play any further part in Elder Scrolls lore as a hero, though he may give in to the Dark Heart's power and become the villain of a future storyline.

burnt vapor
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Yeah that is true. It’s possible he could turn villain. I hope not though as the chat with the PC at the end of the story was really nice

solid path
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lainalten

Coincidentally has a meaning in Finnish. "On loan" (at least according to google translate).
"The loan amount" in one of the Norwegian dialects.

I wonder if those are relevant?

glacial scarab
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I doubt the Ravenwatch survived past the Second Era. They are too well known as Vampires after the events of ESO.

burnt vapor
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Yeah I sadly think they probably didn’t either. Given Verandis is bound to the dark heart and all, they probably just didn’t survive over time.

shell basin
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To be honest there were never that many of them in the first place. With Verandis gone... there's Gwendis, Adusa, Fennorian, and who else? (Incidentally, when Verandis first "dies" - in Rivenspire at the Lightless Shard - it seems that he is leaving Adusa as the most senior vampire left in House Ravenwatch, but later on, in Markarth and indeed in the Castle Thorn dungeon, it looks like Gwendis is the one who's actually matured and stepped up to be de-facto "in charge". With no complaints from Adusa, so evidently it's by agreement.

glossy girder
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I had a question about Light of Day. That artifact looks Ayleid in design. But it's powers are very much Falmer in nature. Does someone knows where it came from ?

latent dock
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Hey everyone, I have a Xbox one S and Im trying to login in to creation club and mods but it keeps giving me an error

glossy girder
latent dock
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thanks

glossy girder
glacial scarab
glossy girder
glacial scarab
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Eh still not really. The Ayleid City states of the Ayleid Empire worshipped different gods per city and one of them includes Meridia who is anti-Undead so it would be easy for the Ayleids to have weapons with sun damage to simulate the anti-Undead effect

glossy girder
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She is even nickmaned " The Sunfire "... And the Sunburst is her symbol. Yeah...

robust lintel
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I mean if I was a Snow Elf, I'd really want sun magic too to warm my frozen elf ears.

abstract jasper
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Well coincidentally i just finish dawnguard quest line, and i never think of this before, could be that the reason dwemer blinding falmer because of their contempt toward falmer devout as race, falmer one the most devout race to divines worship especially auriel, and dwemer blind them so they can't see their divine grace to sever them from auri-el, just like vyrthur want to sever auri-el from nirn by blocking the sun.

also interesting in falmer pantheon auri-el depicted as a sun god ? where also known as the old Smaug himself a.ka akatosh is depicted as time god and divine dragon

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also in altmer religion auri-el closely associated with eagle (like zeus)

sharp lantern
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Tbh, the Ayleids are pretty damn cool

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Did you know that they were the creators of Alteration magic? And knew how to use magic to alter local climates?

balmy salmon
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Light of Day originated from a vampire hunter in TES III who is the target of an Aundae Clan quest.

glossy girder
abstract ledge
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Light of day was just a regular iron mace in morrowind, and iron weapons and armor were western (imperial and bretonish) in design

round lodge
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Honestly someone tell me the Midwood Isle mod for Skyrim would NOT fit into the Elder Scrolls lore. Cause I think the idea of the Sonmer (Sun Elf) elven race makes sense. 🤔 Do we really know all of the elven races out there?

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I mean, within Tamriel, sure. But outside?

pastel sorrel
marble oasis
chilly iron
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ADDS 259 MORE lore books!!!

round lodge
abstract jasper
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do we know about mer races on akavir ? we know sinistral elf was on yokuda, but i never heard mer race from akavir

round lodge
solid path
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There could be Akaviri elves. No idea what they'd be like though.

The Sun Elves having different Aedra and Daedra seems unlikely though - although they might know the same ones by different names and symbols.

marble oasis
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@solid path Yet the first Sheogorath was the opposite part of Jygallag. Maybe all main TES games show the different lives of some higher being led to the world of mortals.

solid path
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The thing there was that one entity changed between the two forms. Sheogorath didn't wander off and become a mortal, he reverted to his pre-cursed form and personality.

marble oasis
solid path
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Well, that's a complicated one, but he was trying to break the curse, and for that he needed his "replacement" to win the battle. In previous cases either there hadn't been a champion to take his place and become Sheogorath, or the champions had lost to Jygalag, who then takes over and falls victim to the curse that was placed on him.

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The point I was making though is that for the Champion to become the Dragonborn, he'd have to vacate the throne of Sheogorath.

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We don't have any indication that's the case, and Sheo is very much doing Sheo type things in Skyrim.

marble oasis
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But after assuming the position of Sheogorath, the game doesn't lead us to believe that our character is going mad.

solid path
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Except that you've just mantled the deific representation of insanity.
There are references to you going insane if you've done things in the right (?) order and you end up praying to Sheogorath after mantling him.

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Just because you're mad doesn't mean you're not lucid.

round lodge
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Even weirder is that the land of the Sun Elves in the mod houses 3 Ayleid ruins, (while we're on topic of the Ayleids) which shouldn't be possible, unless they travelled north beyond the Sea Of Ghosts where new islands and/or continents might've existed. But there's nothing noteworthy beyond the Sea Of Ghosts that we know of. 🤔

pastel sorrel
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Akatosh is a specifically Imperial view.

solid path
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Atmora is beyond the Sea of Ghosts isn't it?

gaunt bear
round lodge
round lodge
# pastel sorrel Akatosh is a specifically Imperial view.

Oh, I thought Auriel (or Auri-El) was the elven version of Akatosh. I know Akatosh is Imperial view, but when I mean the Sun Elves welcome Nord culture, I meant Talos and the Dragonborn bloodline. Which have commonly been Imperial and Nord individuals. Including the Last Dragonborn. 🤔

pastel sorrel
flint harness
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I got a dumb question. So I have I couple of D&D OCs I'd like to incorporate into Elder Scrolls, but idk how lore breaking it would be. Because like one is a Changeling, one is half Tiefling/Drow/Drider, and one is Half Duergar/Deep Gnome. So. 😅😅 idk how to make that work out.

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The one that's Tiefling/Drow/Drider has 5 spider like eyes