elder-scrolls-general-chat

[weak sapphire]

No, it doesn't. But the fact that you can't pull anything out of it that is distinctly Elder Scrolls does.

[dim reef]

You...can.

[weak sapphire]

The enemy types, the architecture, the environments. It's all just taken straight from Baby's First Fantasy

[stiff bramble]

The Imperial City is fairly distinct.

[weak sapphire]

From above, maybe. And even then... It's just Gondor.

[stiff bramble]

Is only Gondor allowed to be circular?

[dim reef]

I mean quite literally for one, the white gold tower. The architecture all changes. Up in bruma it is reminiscent of nordic culture and cheydinhall is of dunmer mixed with imperial (a lot like peligiad sort if from morrowind). Chorrol, skingrad, and anvil all look different, bravil and leyawiin too. All fitting their unique aspects of culture and geography, as well as wealth. The imperial city is by far the most unique imo.

Then you have ogres which look rather unique, dreugh, liches, etc. The knights of the nine are entirely a different take on holy knights, you have the ayleid ruins and dremora, etc.

Don't like oblivion, fine. You don't have to. But it's rather ignorant and untruthful to say nothing is unique. And that's just the physical stuff. The lore is of course unique as always.

[weak sapphire]

Not talking specifically about the circle, i'm talking about the general architecture. The tall, white stone buildings, frequent reinforced buttresses, roman-esque (but not true Roman) aesthetic.

[weak sapphire]

Agree to disagree, then.

But that's neither here nor there

My overall point was that Hammerfell offers an easier platform to play to both sides, the familiar and the exotic.

Personally, I'd rather jump straight into cocaine snorting cats who get really high and then Tigger-Bounce to the moon on their tails, buuuut... you know, baby steps.

[weary quiver]

witcher 3 isnt really slavic

[weak sapphire]

On the whole, though, i kinda hope TES6 is Todd Howard's last game. Then someone breaks the franchises up, with, like, RobcoGaming taking Fallout, some self-referential studio taking Starfield, and say, Tamriel Studios taking over TES...

[stiff bramble]

You're scaring me.

[weak sapphire]

I do that to some people.

[arctic dock]

I personally completely agree with you! This is a very interesting conversation, I personally love the architecture seen within all of the games of the series. My favourite game of all time is Skyrim, though Oblivion always has such a place in my heart for memories looking back on playing it. There is definitely meticulous visual communication of the various cultural traits seen throughout each city and I loved just learning about all of the lore. I am one of those people who read through as many books found within the game world as I could find! 😂 So it really built up the bigger picture of the expansive lore and overall; I just loved the geography of Oblivion too!

I hope everyone's doing good today too!

[weak sapphire]

On a phone now, so i wont get into cultural and architectural critique, but as far as the games go...

[weary quiver]

kind of ironic that skyrim area in oblivion was the least interesting area

[weak sapphire]

Good, actually, thank you fkr asking.

[arctic dock]

I'm happy to hear that! You're very welcome!

[weak sapphire]

With 3 franchises now under one relatively small studio, and with average development time of 3-4 years, it means ultimately waiting a decade for each new game.

And that's assuming they cycle between them. Thats... no more sustainable than a rapid fire release every year.

[dim reef]

I want todd on all projects.

[prime marlin]

yes that makes pefect sense lets break up the studio who has worked on all the games together

[stiff bramble]

I want Todd on my homework.

[prime marlin]

makes perfect sense lets remove the dude entirely who helped make it what it is

perfect logic

[dim reef]

Also yeah. In general i want no splitting up.

[stiff bramble]

Oh hi, nemesis!

[prime marlin]

“i sure do hope the 50 year old who loves his job loses his job”

[dim reef]

Looks 30.

[weak sapphire]

Way to keep straw manning my position

[prime marlin]

hes 50

[dim reef]

I know. But he just looks so much younger.

[prime marlin]

because that is a very rediculous position

[stiff bramble]

Praise Todd. For he ages naught.

[prime marlin]

i legitimately wanna know what he does to stay so young looking

[dim reef]

Just remember, todd was declined a job at bethesda iirc twice and now he's the ceo of bgs.

[prime marlin]

im almost his age when he started at bethesda

hes not the ceo hes the creative director last i checked

[weak sapphire]

Yes, that is how strawmanning works. Misrepresent a position to make it rediculous, then argue against that misrepresentation.

[dim reef]

Whichever. He's the top position.

[prime marlin]

you want todd to no longer work on the series for some reason

and break up the company whos always worked together for some reason

[weak sapphire]

I never said i want Todd Howard to lose his job. I said i hope TES6 is his last game, and that the franchises are divided amongst dedicated teams.

Howard as an executive producer for all the games, and offering his input and expertise, would still be a great asset

Mobility between teams could still very much be a real thing, and in fact is pretty common eith a lot of subsidiary organisations.

[prime marlin]

i dont hope its his last game

[dim reef]

I want him on every elder scrolls, fallout, and possibly future starfield. The guy puts his all into his games and is very passionate. And i wouldn't want nothing less.

[prime marlin]

its a horrible take

divided amongst dedicated teams splits up the large group who worked on them

together

[weak sapphire]

So, you are content with 10 year waits between titles, and a general lack of indepentent franchise identity and new vision?

You are fine waiting 10 years for baskcally the same thing, with a few tweaks?

See, i can strawman too.

[prime marlin]

shut

[dim reef]

bethesda literally makes every game from the ground up. and it's not been 10 years between titles. fallout 4 came out in 2015. 4 years after skyrim. 76 came in 2018, 3 years after 4. starfield is coming out in 2022, 4 years after 76. and then we'll be getting elder scrolls 6 in most likely 2025-26. that's...not even half of 10 years.

secondly, they have franchise identity and new visions. so... again, i don't agree with that stand at all.

[stiff bramble]

I think he meant a decade between entries in a series.

[prime marlin]

sorry they dont churn out a game every six days like ubisoft a company 30 times their size

[stiff bramble]

It will be around fifteen years between TES V and TES VI.

[dim reef]

i don't care if it takes 20 years after elder scrolls 6's release for 7. i'll gladly wait rather than have a rushed and quick release.

[weak sapphire]

Exactly. 3-4 yeard for each game, rotating franchises, means 9-12 years between titles in each franchise.

[dim reef]

also, that. bethesda is a ridiculously small company compared to other triple-a studios.

so splitting them would be even worse.

honestly people just need to learn patience.

[prime marlin]

exactly its not like skyrims a game that you play once and never again

you are gunna play every gsme they make for a long time

[stiff bramble]

A decade between entries in a franchise is a ridiculously long time.

[dim reef]

it would be...if that's the only franchise they were making.

[weak sapphire]

No, its a long time regardless. Because not everyone is going to play all their games.

[dim reef]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

can't please everyone.

[stiff bramble]

As someone who likes Fallout more than TES (blasphemy, I know) the prospect of wiating until 2030 for the next game is... not great.

[dim reef]

i love fallout, but i'm fine waiting. it'll just be good.

[stiff bramble]

If you're really fine waiting fifteen years between entries... good on you. That just ain't good enough for me.

[weak sapphire]

And as someone who enjoys all of them, im not personally affected at all. But TRYING to account for the wants of other people, rather than just saying "Stuff it" is just basic humanity as far as I'm concerned.

[dim reef]

again, can't please everyone.

[weak sapphire]

And again, this isn't even touching on issues beyond simply the wait time.

[dim reef]

lach, you're plan is going to make releases even longer. bethesda is a small company despite making triple-a games. splitting them up into 3 branches will just give them less people and that means longer time to make a game. it's not a good idea.

[stiff bramble]

You could have a kid who is old enough to play the game in-between the theoretical release dates we're talking about. THat's just objectively too long.

[weak sapphire]

When Oblivion came out, Bethesda basically had zero competition. Now, every other game is an open world 'Living' RPG.

[dim reef]

it really isn't. it's a measure purely of subjectivity.

[weak sapphire]

Well, yeah. Im not saying make 3 70 person studios. Im saying give each franchise to a dedicated studio

[prime marlin]

bethesda still has no actual competition

[dim reef]

yet no other game has ever rivaled bethesda's. even rdr2 is more game-y to me than skyrim or fallout 4. the witcher 3 has dead cities where npcs just stand and rarely walk.

[dim reef]

this.

[prime marlin]

they are the only company who makes a game like they do

[weak sapphire]

Obsidian would like a word

[dim reef]

i love rdr2, i'll say it's rather immersive and living. but it won't beat skyrim.

[prime marlin]

anyone who actually tries always deems many things bethesda does as unimportant and it brings the entire experience down

[stiff bramble]

Obsidian... tries.

[dim reef]

obsidian doesn't make good games, nor games even close to bethesda's.

[stiff bramble]

How dare you.

[prime marlin]

obsidian left out aspects of a bethesda game and it made the experience less fun

[dim reef]

like evironmental storytelling or just small details.

[weak sapphire]

I mean, Obsidian sucks the big suck, but others seen to think they're amazing. I think head trauma is mkre common than stats indicate

[dim reef]

i want to make a game personally, and i'm going to heavily be inspired by bethesda's games, but i won't once compare it to a bethesda game.

[prime marlin]

being able to pick up everything not nailed down and killing nearly everyone and just being able to screw around

i want to make a good metroidvania its one of those types of games so many try to copy but … dont fully understand it

[weak sapphire]

But again, you're all fixating on minutia and missing the big picture.

[stiff bramble]

I really like Pillars. It's just that people say New Vegas is their best game ever and forget just how much of that winning formula is cribbed straight from Fallout 3.

[prime marlin]

doctorm64 and mercury stream did it amazingly

new vegas was partially helped with by bethesda chris avelone had ststed they went above and beyond to help

[weak sapphire]

15 years ago, Bethesda had no completion. Now they have dozen companies trying tk do what they do

[dim reef]

trying.

they have yet to succeed.

[prime marlin]

and dozens of companies failing

[dim reef]

you can try all you might, it doesn't mean success.

[weak sapphire]

But that is still a manor shift in the market, and a shift that Bethesda has in no way reacted to

[prime marlin]

because to make a game like a bethesda game you need to actually make it like a bethesda game and most engines dont handle data in a way that would allow it

[dim reef]

they don't really need to.

[stiff bramble]

Okay okay, hold on... what are we even arguing about now? Can we all just take a second to think that over?

[weak sapphire]

The future of Bethesda and its franchises. At least, thats what im arguing about

[prime marlin]

no company has or likely will successfully make a game like bethesda

[dim reef]

^

[prime marlin]

because things will always be deemed unimportant

[stiff bramble]

Bethesda isn't god. It's made up of people and people can learn.

[weak sapphire]

And more importantly, other people can learn.

Assuming you are unassailable is a surefire way to fail

[prime marlin]

no

[dim reef]

the day a game ever comes out from a different studio that does everything bethesda does, i'll agree. and yet no one has even gotten close.

[prime marlin]

they arent unassailable but making a game like they do on an engine thats not creation would take an obscene amount of work

[weary quiver]

bethesda is unique because its not a public corporation until now and had a strong creative director outsized personality in todd leading it. most similar to valve which is the only other large gaming company i dont hate

[prime marlin]

work that no large company is willing to do

[dim reef]

plus bethesda is one of the only studios not to crunch. iirc the other one is insomnia.

[prime marlin]

they crunch but they dont force it

[dim reef]

and ironically, no crunch means more effort put in.

[dim reef]

generally what i mean.

[weary quiver]

its like the difference in star wars when you have a dope in a suit like kennedy running things compared to fanboy filoni running things

[prime marlin]

im just covering bases so someone doesnt bring up the interview

[dim reef]

everyone crunches, i crunch myself even when i literally have no reason to.

[stiff bramble]

I crunch my cereal..

[dim reef]

what interview?

[weary quiver]

i don't think steam crunches either? they do take their sweet time with games

scuse me valve

[cinder idol]

Sounds like Exanima.

[weak sapphire]

Once you set a release date, there will always be crunch. However, waiting as long as possible to set that date helps limit the stress.

No company is going to wait till a game is done, to set a release date, because then you're just wasting money in the down time.

[weary quiver]

project end sprint everyone does, its the counter productive long crunch that is likely not done at bethesda. certainly beth does not cruch for bug fixes 😛

[prime marlin]

valve doesnt force anyone to work on any project they dont want to

[weak sapphire]

Plus, games are never really 'Done' anymore. As games get mkre complex, there will always be mkre tweaking, balance and bug hunting to do.

[prime marlin]

its why seemingly nothing gets done at valve at first glance

but in reality they are never not doing somethign or researchign something

[weary quiver]

if you work overtime liftiing boxes, production will more or less match the more you work. programming is different, requires zone condition. wouldn't be too far off to say a developer is more productive in the 20% they are in the zone than the 80% they are not, browsing discord and such 😛

[stiff bramble]

The problem at Valve has been their lack of crunch. They have, until recently, straight up refused to actually make anyone do anything, leading to a lot of dead-end projects after all of the fun parts are completed.

[prime marlin]

the interview had todd saying a little crunch is healthy and he got attacked for this ststement online

but those dead end projects stillled to things

[weary quiver]

valve has more value per employee than apple

[spice whale]

what's a crunch in lockdown era? they all work from homes

[cinder idol]

Think about it, the best way for the Empire to beat the Thalmor is to send a game protagonist to the Summerset Isles and murderhobo everything. They're like a walking bioweapon.

[weak sapphire]

A deadline is a deadline.

You ever stay up till 2 am finishing a paper thats due the next day? Thats still working from home

[stiff bramble]

...no. I have never done that and I especially don't do that every single time. Nope.

[spice whale]

not as severe when you don't sleep at the office, (i suppose). only experienced that for about a week though, so dunno

[prime marlin]

i dont think anyone has ever crunched worse then the team who made sonic xtreme

which makes it worse that sega cancelled that game

[spice whale]

are end-of-the-world talks allowed here? <.< getting the feeling our covid thing isn't going anywhere

[weak sapphire]

Nah, Vaccination is rolling along well. Ig will never go totally away, but we will have it inder control

[spice whale]

not in russia, no - my wise compatriots just refuse getting chipped >.< and i read that if like 50% population is vacinated and the rest isn't, virus will likely evolve to the point of well, being immune to vaccines \o/

um sorry, didn't mean to be dark and stuff x) getting accustomed to new normal takes time

\o/

[weak sapphire]

Plus side, mRNA vaccines are way quicker to develop, and more reliable, so even if it mutates outside of the current vaccines protective range, we can get new ones relatively easily

[cinder idol]

Eh, only place that isn't having issues as far as I know is Greenland, due to how cold and isolated it is.
Britain doesn't know what a social distancing is and ignore lockdowns so we're pretty much doomed.
America is... America.
India is a mess
I don't know about Italy and other places but their populations are certainly ailing.

[weak sapphire]

Numbers are dropping across the 1st world. Then wr vaccinate the 3rd world. That's how it usually goes.

It takes time, but we'll get there.

And if not... well, Life will go on. With, or without us.

[spice whale]

err, anyway, watched Matt Firor's 50 minutes long interview yesterday. didn't know he was as important back in the day, mythic studios or whatever they call the company

funny, he actually meant ESO to be Oblivion online, before Skyrim came out, obvs

that explains the colors, at least

and he tried to get the rights to make a Fallout online x) 'then they stopped answering' and he learned from news BGS got it

[weak sapphire]

Yeah... i don't think Fallout really works as an MMO concept unfortunately

TES does to an extent, though i still think ESO is mechanically stale and generic

Some great lore in it thougj

[cinder idol]

Yeah, best they can do is co-op. I mean it could be done but then it'd be as punishing as Rust.

[weak sapphire]

Also some really trash lore

[dim reef]

the elder scrolls definitely does not work as an mmo. since it just ruins prophecies and such. and eso is already a trash game with trash gameplay.

at least fallout 76 works and it also has gameplay we know.

[weak sapphire]

If they treated you as just adventurers in the world, similar to how WoW began, it would have been much better.

If ever there was a game for you to be the sidekick in TES, ESO would have been it

[weary quiver]

eso is barrel rolling spamming mages

[weak sapphire]

Here's a question... and this is born out of talking about gunplay in Fallout, and whether or not it should take mkre mechanics from more mainline shooters...

The Crouch/sneak system in TES is pretty clunky. How would people feel about a dedicated Stealth mode (how its activated is another discussion) and replacinh the Sneak command with Crouch/Prone

So, you can get down and crawl on the ground if you're so inclined

[dim reef]

so basically, you just add in prone? i mean, i guess it'd make spotting you harder and movement slower, but from a fighting standpoint, i'm not seeing it.

[spice whale]

can't remember any action/shooter with prone.. Resident Evil 6? nah, not the best example

[dim reef]

cod.

[weary quiver]

fo76 is one of the best fps has a good selection of guns and its core gunplay is similar to many other games. might lack some nuance like barrel rolling and prone position but probably better off without it. short wall jumping would be cool

[spice whale]

is CoD more tactical than .. shootey? haven't played it

[dim reef]

honestly "barrel rolling" and wall jumping should just...not in fallout. too fps for an rpg.

[weary quiver]

not too dissimilar to borderands, but there were aweome things in bl2 like dual wield and commando turret

[weak sapphire]

I was thinking more for exploration purposes than combat

No more "One size fits all holes in walls"

[dim reef]

Suppose that can work.

[spice whale]

gta 4-gta online have rolling, and it didn't make much sense in tactical way. You roll around and you're just easier to aim at x) can't shoot back meanwhile

ah, crawl under a wall? i like doing that in DayZ

liked*

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. It adds more direct movement control, and more environmental design options

[spice whale]

could make lots of places scarier, too

[dim reef]

Off topic, but i want a dlc around jyygalagg.

[weak sapphire]

Yes. Bring him into the fold properly

If for no other reason than tk shut up the people who say he's Sheogorath again

[dim reef]

Honestly i think it'd be a fun story of you helping him make his own New plane of oblivion.

Also who says he's sheogorath again? The whole point of shivering isles was to break the cycle.

[magic tundra]

but did it work?

[dim reef]

Yes.

[spice whale]

child question but, how is he supposed to get that space in Oblivion anyway? you'd think in millenia of existance daedra princes would take every plane for themselves already. Or, well, created it from themselves

[weary quiver]

if anything melee should be improved in fo and tes. state of decay was great, the sweep attacks made it so. and it also had more dynamic physics for flying bodies getting more damaged when they fly into a wall.

[spice whale]

hey Azura can you, like, move, a little? thanks

[dim reef]

I don't really think there's limited space.

[weary quiver]

fos ru dah shout somebody against a wall and they should take mrore damage

[dim reef]

But if so, well that can be the conflict in the dlc.

[weary quiver]

instead of just cliffs

[weak sapphire]

Oblivion is Infinite.

[spice whale]

holy hell, that one was good, oh yes! animation shows how badly damaged or exhausted you are

[weak sapphire]

The biggest problem with Melee in these games is the split perspective. Melee combat is very different in first person and third person

So, you need something that works in both

[spice whale]

infinite how? it's surrounded by that tiny little .. membrane.. that separates it from aetherius

[weak sapphire]

You're getting into planar mechanics that starts getting very confusing

[weary quiver]

true but cant be impossible to do a spinning attack in 1st person, and not make it look stupid

heck skyrim did ok with 1st person kill shots

[weak sapphire]

Absolutely. Look at MaCree in Overwatch. He can do a forward roll without a problem.

So there are ways around it, it's just balancing out the basic mechanics.

The best first-person Melee systems i've played are Vermintide, and Dying Light.

The best 3rd person systems i've played are State of Decay, and probably God of War

But then you;ve got all kinds of other considerations like, this is an RPG, so how do you handle RPG elements in the combat. Damage Types? Attach Types? Both?

[spice whale]

What is space?
Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology
infinite they say, yeah. Surrounded too, the heck

[weak sapphire]

'Surounded'

[dim reef]

Yeah, notice the quotations.

[weak sapphire]

Meaning, that Aetherius is outside of Oblivion, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a 3 dimensional perception

[spice whale]

somebody bring me vodka

[weak sapphire]

Are you familiar with the Great Wheel cosmology of D&D?

[spice whale]

no ^

[weak sapphire]

Ok, i'm... gonna take this into the lore chat for a minute then.

[dim reef]

Where can you find yellow mountain flowers?

[weak sapphire]

In which game?

[dim reef]

Skyrim.

[weak sapphire]

The Ancestor Glade, or Castle Volkhair

[dim reef]

Ah.

[weak sapphire]

The combat system i've played with, in concept, is a simple input system with activatable 'special moves'.

Basically, L-Tap to Thrust, L-Hold to Swing, and Tap-Power (whatever button you assign it) to use other moves while Hold-Power brings up a quick select wheel that allows you to rapidly choose other options. Your basic starting move would be a Power Attack

[weak sapphire]

Ideally, i'd rather see an Analogue Combat system, but that proved quite unpopular in conversatons on the forums, so i moved away from it in my own tinkering

[dim reef]

speech in the elder scrolls sucks. it's decent, but really the issue comes from lack of actual dialogue and also speech checks. it's also really bizarre to have the skill named speech when most the time you get level ups for bartering than talking.

now, i have a proposal in mind for how to make the speech system interesting, dynamic, and imo, fun.

make it like daggerfall in that you choose a tone that the npc will like based off facial features, personality, background information, etc. Some will be harder to figure out others easier. A perk will give you a basic summary to help out those who lack social cues (like me).

the way speech will level up will be that you use the correct tones. so i was thinking more like oblivion in that there's 4 tones, you have blunt, warm, humorous, and intimidating. if you use the one that makes the character respond positively towards it, you'll get skill experience, if you use the lesser liked one, your speech skill will level up but at a slower pace. and the other two will just make them dislike you and often not respond to your questions/statements and if they do they'll either be short or dishonest.

lastly, to make dialogue more...like dialogue, you can have a multitude of options in the form of topics. i personally liked how you can hear about a topic and it can be used later on. so the way this would work is more like a list, you have your topics and your options will expand into sentences (or actions, i'll get to that). so say you get that pesky "couriers needed" topic, you can then ask "i heard about couriers being low in supply, know anywhere i can sign up" for example.

and then actions, to not make speech too intimidating, you'll just have a classic action. something like [tell a story] or something, this would mainly just be short things to make talking to companions and friends more realistic.

[weak sapphire]

I played around with something similar for awhile, but the problem i ultimately came to was in the selection method of the tone.

Bearing in mind that i absolutely love the potential of Fallout 4's dialogue system (even if it was terribly used) and in that i just couldn't come up with an easy way to select the Tone

But, playing with that did lead to another model that i've been playing around with.

[dim reef]

also, for the speech skill itself, it'll have 3 branching paths: bartering, speech, information.

bartering will be, well, bartering. better prices, investment, etc. speech will be higher chance to pass checks, more options in certain situations, etc. and information will be stuff like the summary, better tone indicators, the removal of one wrong tone, stuff like that.

[dim reef]

wdym by selecting the method of tone?

[weak sapphire]

I mean, how would you pick the tone without a large menu interface?

[dim reef]

use the right and left directional buttons. the tones will be at the bottom, which you just flip through using left and right, up and down will do as it acts in oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3, new vegas, and fallout 76.

[weak sapphire]

i could see some of that, yeah.

Ok, that opens up new options too.

The approach i was toying with is bringing back Disposition, and gating every dialogue choice behind a Disposition value. If at any time, your disposition with an NPC doesn't meet the value for that option, they refuse to talk to you about it. However, you can then try to convince them to talk to you, giving you room to Persuade, Intimidate or Bribe them.

Which basically makes it so you can inject Speech Checks into almost every single conversation

[dim reef]

Oh yeah. Disposition will definitely return and be retweaked.

[weak sapphire]

.... i had never though of using the Arrow Keys... i'll have to think about this more...

[dim reef]

So disposition will work in a manner that'll be somewhat more realistic.

Disposition itself will not lock out dialogue options, but instead will play a part in speech checks.

Speech-disposition=chance or speech+disposition÷2=chance. Not sure the exact formula. But disposition will ultimately affect your chance of passing. To raise disposition, rather than talking to them in one go, i was thinking a bit more realistically...spending time with the character (hopefully well written).

[weak sapphire]

I was thinking simpler. Like, Disposition basically represents how much an NPC likes you. If they're neutral, they may be willing to talk to you, but not about personal things, and if they don't like you at all hey may not even talk to you, period.

So, by using Dispositon to gate dialogue options, you're basically representing what they're comfortable talking to you about based on your current relationship

[dim reef]

I mean that'd also be plausible with my idea too.

[weak sapphire]

True

[dim reef]

But really, my main goal here is that characters are more important and in-depth. Npcs having schedules and lives and being rivals and friends with other npcs and even you is all lovely. And it certainly makes the world feel more alive and immersive, but why not make it where you can interact in depth with these people? Friendships and rivalries are more noticeable and have an impact.

[weak sapphire]

Agreed.

And it should encourage semi-regular interaction with people, rather than stopping in, talking to them once, and never seeing them again

[dim reef]

Just to throw out a game with something like i have in mind...the sims. Not saying make the elder scrolls 6 a sim (though that would be great), but the sims has a rather in depth character relationship dynamic.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah

Generally, when i'm thinking of mechanics, i rely entirelyon what i have seen done elsewhere. So the Sims is a good place to look

[dim reef]

The sims is mainly where i got the actions idea from. But the general dynamic comes from sim games in general, not necessarily the sims.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah

[cinder idol]

Eh, prophecies have always been generally trash tier writing for me. There are some exceptions like Morrowind and Dark Souls where you aren't immediately "The Saviour of the Universe, Humanity's Last Hope who is beloved by all even when they go full murderhobo on everyone" or even confirmed to be them/can actively go against the prophecy if you want but usually trash.

[cinder idol]

Just crawling around in a narrow passage then a feral or skeever goes for one of your legs...

[spice whale]

no no no no no, had enough of leg grabbing in RE2 :'(

[cinder idol]

I could manage that game's combat mostly due to running everything down with cars... Finishers felt odd as you had to hold down another button while attacking while the zomboes are down so you just jumped off their heads like a frog.

[dim reef]

Has anyone got any idea when or if starfall will be a thing

[cinder idol]

Never been a fan of chance, people will always come to the same conclusion regardless of RNG and depends much more on your relationship with them, how they feel about you and what you say (some options opening up based on what you know about them, such as getting them to tell you a secret regarding your quest as you can say they can trust you not to spread it or getting their help against bandits attacking the town as it would be a shame to a family member they lost to said bandits). It does feel funny becoming someone's friend by giving them 2000 gold or talking to them for an afternoon, not suggesting the Fable 3 favour thing but just having them decide to stop the conversation after a bit because it's getting late, they need to do something like chores, their job, getting something to eat etc.

[weak sapphire]

I am generally not a big fan of chance either. I prefer clear, relatable values that can be used for moment-to-moment decision making, rahter than "This has a 32% chance of success". The only Percentage variables i really consider in concept are value increases, like Armsman +10% weapon damage. It scales a core value by a percentage, but still gives you a relatable number.

In terms of Disposition, flat values compared against flat values. Like, if your Disposition with an NPC is 20, and the threshold for a Dialogue Option is 50, you need to make up that 30 point difference. If your Persuasion Value is 20, that's not going to cut it. But your Intimidation is even worse, at 12. So, your only option to convince them to talk to you about X Topic is to offer them 30 gold.

Clean, simple, but offers regular use in basically every sort of interaction.

[cinder idol]

True. Besides, percentage increases are better than what Blades does and adds flat numbers like an extra 5 damage instead of an extra 5% (though even then it's inconsistent between percentages and small flat increases).

[weary quiver]

And there should be a who wants to be a millionaire aspect to a speech system

[weak sapphire]

Hmm?

[cinder idol]

So one wrong word and they instantly go for your throat with 0 disposition?

[weary quiver]

And chance is a terrible mechanism, a lazy attempt at adding dynamism. Also makes identifying and debugging harder

Some things you can choose to use to help you in speech s6stem, similar to lifeline or audience poll. And limit breaks

[weak sapphire]

Overall, i was thinking something like this.

You approach an NPC. For this example, we'll use a generic, shallow NPC.

You get 4 options. Greet, Directions, Inquire, Goodbye.

You pick Directions, your Disposition>Threshold, the NPC responds "Sure, what were you looking for?" You then get 4 more options; Shops, Landmarks, Temples, Important People.

You pick Ships, and again Disposition>Threshold, so the NPC responds "You go straight from the main gate, take a left at the Bear's Balls Tavern, and the market is at the end of the lane."

You then hit the Return command to bo back to the first set of options and choose Inquire.

Disposition>Threshold, so the NPC says "Sure, i've got a few minutes. What did you want to know?"

You, again, get 4 options. Self, Family, Jobs, Rumours. You pick Family.

Now, Disposition<Threshold, so the NPC says "That's not really something i'm comfortable talking about.

So, you get your option to try and bypass that Disposition lock, giving you another 4 options. Persuasion, Intimidation, Bribe, and Nevermind (return to previous options). If your value in the option you pick exceeds the Threshold, then they'll talk to you as normal (but further options may be even harder to get them to open up about, so be careful). If you FAIL, however, you lose dispositon, so the NPC could end up just not wanting to talk to you at all.

The goal here being threefold.

First, it integrates Disposition and Speech into basically every dialogue while keeping values concise and relatable to the player.

Second, it makes dialogue feel and flow more like a conversation.

Third, it keeps things topical and allows the Player to largely dictate (through imagination) the specifc prose even if it defines the intention.

[magic tundra]

why does it always have to be 4 options?
what's so special about 4?
what happens if you need extra dialogue fpr quests?

[weary quiver]

Speech should resemble vats

[magic tundra]

what is a vat?

[weak sapphire]

Just as an example. I've shown on the forums before that using a single branching point, you can actually include more options through Fallout 4's 4-option grouping, and access them with fewer actual button strokes, than you could using the traditional list format

Even with a single branching point, you could easily include up to 16 options for every stage of dialogue, but in most cases you wouldn't need that

[weary quiver]

Vats auto targeting system in fo

[magic tundra]

?

[weary quiver]

https://youtu.be/dUe-HcdEnzo

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, i'm not totally seeing how you could apply that. Care to elaborate?

oooh, ok, i getya now. Shoot him in the kneecap to convince him to talk

[weary quiver]

More you can add a crit to specific target or disposition or topic

[weak sapphire]

There... may be a mini-game sort of dynamic in there, yeah

To explain the branching though, before my sleep deprived mind misses it...

If you are working from the 4 options of Fallout 4, then you could, for instance, have an option for Investigate*, the * indicating that the option contains more options. Selecting Investigate* then presents you with 3 more options, all centred around that core topic. Opposition, Other Entrance, Traps. Each one allowing you to ask about various aspects relevant to whatever mission you are discussing.

With the 4 options per layer, and only a single branching layer, you could include up to 16 dialogue options, more than most RPGs offer, and more than could reasonably be fit on your average Dialogue interace anyway.

[magic tundra]

I don't like this fixed branching approach, though

[weak sapphire]

Why?

That sounds more... confrontational than i intended it to. I'm curious about potential problems with it, so i can try to address them in concept.

[weary quiver]

Wouldn't branching involve a lot of dialog to record?

[magic tundra]

it doesn't feel natural to me
you'll have completely different things to talk about with different NPCs, and the ammount of stuff you can talk about can also drastically vary depending on progress in quests (especially if that NPC is involved in several)

[weak sapphire]

Depends on the number of options you actually offer. But, cosidering the ever-rising amount of dialogue anyway...

I mean, if you cut out the PC's dialogue in Fallout 4, and just make the PC silent, you free up 80,000 lines.

[weak sapphire]

Oh, i don't mean every single NPC is going to have the same options. They're still going to have to be character and context sensitive.

But using Topical options, and Categorical Branches, allows it to be kept open for PC interpretation (so long as the intent is clear, the actual prose is up to you) as well as making it concise and easy to navigate.

[cinder idol]

I'm not sure how that'd work beyond asking someone else what the first person likes...

[dim reef]

How are prophecies "trash tier writing"?

[weary quiver]

Not literally but more like you can use 'speech points', sp if you will, to know definitely what the best option is or eliminate bad options

Bring an element of strategery into speech for peak immersion intensifying

[weak sapphire]

They can definitely be used as a narrative crutch

[dim reef]

I guess? Doesn't make them bad. It works in the elder scrolls and also helps further the linear-esque main stories they have.

[weak sapphire]

No, it doesn't. And dkne well, a prophecy can be an amazing narrative tool.

[dim reef]

How does the prophecies not work in the elder scrolls?

[weak sapphire]

I didn't say they didn't. In fact, i think they work pretty well. Some are clunkier than others, sure

But on the whole, they are decently done and well integrated into the setting

[dim reef]

You said no it doesn't.

Oh... I'm dumb.

[weak sapphire]

Its ok, i probably should have replied to make it more clear

I take the fault on that one

Skyrim's prophecy was structurally the best, IMO. Simply becausr it had no outcome

All the prophecy did was set up the conflict, it didn't tell you how it would end.

Next twist i would like to see is stopping a Prophecy

[dim reef]

Isn't that technically what you do in skyrim? Just kind of indirectly?

[weak sapphire]

Nah. Skyrim's propjecy doesn't give an outcome, it simply forsees that the Dragonborn and Alduin will fight, and decide the fate of the world

I'm talking, Hoonding returning to sink Tamriel and you need to kill yhe Make-Way got before he can

[dim reef]

Why would hoonding sink tamriel?

[weak sapphire]

The Hoonding is the Redguard Make-Way god, but they've never really explored what Making Way means. Play off that cultural identity and make him a good that destroys what that they have, and forces them to move ever onwards.

Sorta make him a representative of consumptive colonialism

[spice whale]

hmm, them redguards venerate and fear their version of Lorkhan? what was his name.. Sep?and Sep is supposed to devour world

[dim reef]

I don't...really know about that. I'm pretty sure they did explore what "making way" means...driving off infidels from hammerfell.

[weak sapphire]

Sep devours other spirits, Satakal devours the world

[spice whale]

eff, and Satak? i only tried to learn that when rped redguard woman. she cussed a lot and used those names

[weak sapphire]

Driving off infidels, sure. No matter the cost. The Redguard lost their old kingdoms and invaded the lefthanders. Then they lost that land and invaded Tamriel. Now, set them up to lose Tamriel in the same way. Sure, they kill their enemies, but they are forced tk move on because of it each time, scorched earth.

[weak sapphire]

Satak was the original snake. Akel was his hungry stomach, and drove Satak tk eat himself. When Satak finally ate his own heart, he died, shedding his skin and becoming Satakal

[dim reef]

Yeah...not a huge fan. Personally i'm more a fan of you being the hoonding.

[spice whale]

tall papa take him

[weak sapphire]

My phrasing is definitely lacking as a selling point. Trying tk elaborate on a phone sucks

[dim reef]

I just don't think it makes much sense to worship a god that destroys what they own.

[weak sapphire]

Why would the Nords worship Alduin?

Fear, respect for Power, and historical revisionism are one hell of a drug

Venerating a god that delivers then from their enemies isn't strange. Their histories just gloss over the collateral that deliverance causes

[dim reef]

I didn't say they can't. I said it doesn't make much sense. Plus alduin is a bit different in terms of "destruction". One god (alduin) ends a kalpa, the other (hoonding) forces their people to move just because.

In all honesty either way, just not a huge fan of your idea for hoonding.

[unreal spoke]

Did someone say hoodingaling

[weak sapphire]

Thats fair. I just think the Hoonding offers the best known culture-hero to have a twist on the usual Prophecy

[unreal spoke]

Reject prophecy, return to normie way over their head

That's my preferred TES hero anyways. Normal person who gets wrapped in strange plot.

Reminds me of my idea for a UM!mod/storyline. Penitus Oculatus agent who gets killed by the Dragon to the Big Bad of the game, gets turned into an undead (as I'm all for using lore to explain game mechanics), and then outside of having the ability to resurrect is mostly just a normal person trying to fight the baddies.

Special Heroes are cool but I do feel like it limits what players can roleplay as, as it can force you into a goody two shoes role easily

Wth dyno

I didn't even curse in that

[weak sapphire]

Lol, ylthe bot getting you too?

[weary quiver]

I usually don't pick up the dragonstone

Or set off oblivion gates. Think that happens rescuing Martin, been a while

[spice whale]

ah, and it's all intentional, Oblivion crysis can be delayed if you choose so, well as the dragon invasion <3 such a genius of game design! praise b.. okay, better stop here

[cinder idol]

They're so cliche and if you're confirmed to be the prophecised one then you're treated as special right out the gate which is awful since you didn't earn the "Oh, special lightbringer one have my children" or "I'll name my child after you" that you'll constantly get. You also tend to be fated (railroaded) into saving the day by gods that should really do it themselves if they care so much. My 2 examples are good as you aren't sure if you are/aren't and if you are nobody jumps you in the street to sing your praises (Morrowind kinda cares but still holds you accountable for crimes).

[weak sapphire]

Eh, not great examples. The only catch with Morrowind is you aren't revealed to be the Chosen One until later, and in Dark Souls, you are very clearly the chosen one because you're the only one with any agency

[dim reef]

I mean...even in oblivion and skyrim you aren't immediately praised.

[cinder idol]

True but then again, I think that's how ESO operates. With Oblivion and Skyrim that eventually happens but it's after a whole bunch of story guff/your accomplishment, Salvian isn't like "Your arrival was foretold in the ancient texts! You are going to kill the daedra in Kvatch because prophecy" he and the others genuinely think you'll die. With Skyrim, it's only when rumour of your dragonbornyness gets out when folks refer to you as that though in both neither only talk about that aspect of you.

[cinder idol]

I mean I guess it's clear from the whole being able to play as them but that doubt kinda fits as when you start out you aren't sure if you even can get through enough enemies to ring the bells or even get further once you reach that point. That and you can go against Frampt's prophecy if you wish to.

[weak sapphire]

Its more how nothing changes, and enemies are clearly established as already Hollow. The fact you are still not is a clear outlier, instantly setting you up as different and special.

[weary quiver]

Dragons ans oblivion gates are loud and noisy

[spice whale]

i ~kinda~ like how ZOSes gave Reachfolk scottish accent but also, kinda would prefer them to be more wild and uncontrolled, and their speech to reflect that. They're supposed to be Robert E Howard's Picts but with magic, no? npcs in Markarth dlc don't sound barbarian enough to me. Must be Empire's influence

this guy Bradan just told me he's not gonna sacrifice my heart to Lady Namira. bold words, but why does he sound like a sheep herd ._ .

(fortunately i can make it up with my char who is Reachwoman herself)
https://i.gyazo.com/caced8ae61de1006321b31aad8769ea3.png

[wanton violet]

note to self: nord guard mean business when angery lol. trying to do thieve guild quest in eso, that nord noble don't play cheap with security xD

[cinder idol]

The various NPCs change over time, though being hollow is just the end point for literally every character you come across including yourself.

[weak sapphire]

Ill be honest, its been so long since I played the original Dark Souls, my memory may be flawed . I was very thuroughly unimpressed, and haven't touched it since i beat it in 2012

[terse mica]

ah the game that everyone breaks their monitors for

[weak sapphire]

More like, the game i got zero enjoyment out of, and only continued playing out kf some misguided idea that if i didn't beat it i wasn't a gamer

While i didn't outright hate it, like i did New Vegas, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 were entirely joyless games for me.

I have found mire enjoyment watching paint dry

[cinder idol]

2 was for sure wasted potential. So many cool items you weren't allowed because that would be fun. The PVP looks exhausting, too.

[dim reef]

That’s sad

[weak sapphire]

I beat 1 and 2, and got about an hour into Bloodborne when i finally realised that no amount of validation in the internet was going to make me enjoy those games

Havent touched a From Software game since.

[cinder idol]

My biggest issue with the games is how random the drops are, with Bethesda games it's better to just be able to strip a body of everything but if you want a particular piece like Ruin Sentinel armour or a channeler trident you're pretty much doomed.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, that's a beef i have with a lot of games

Even in D&D, i strip whatever is remotely useful

[weak sapphire]

Still, Dark Souls approaches a lot of problems in a fundimentally wrong way, in my opinion. At its core it, and all Fromsoftware games of the last whole, confuses Difficulty with Challenge.

It isn't a challenging game. Its a punishing game. But its just a game of obtuse Simon. Recognise the patterns and succeed, that's basically all there is to it.

But because it's so conceptually basic, it just brutally punishes you for any misstep or reaction delay.

Beating you like its some 19th century factory owner

[dim reef]

Have you seen fallout 76 i was attacked by a minigun super mutant killed it and got a wooden board

[cinder idol]

I haven't played 76 though I hope that "you're too low level for their weapon so have this instead" doesn't show up elsewhere.

[cinder idol]

It's a shame that challenging games (I assume you mean ones where the difficulty comes from AI, not dumb enemies with raw power) don't really exist anymore. Only "recent" one I'm aware of is Half Life 2 which was made over a decade ago.

[weak sapphire]

It definitely seems to come more in other genres than RPGs or FPS, yes

Challenge, at least to me, should mean being mkre aware, thoughtful, and having to juggle more thingd

[cinder idol]

Sounds kinda like a Five Nights at Freddy's game, which require a lot of juggling and understanding visual and sound cues. It does get into that "one small mistake" issue though.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, you want some wiggle room.

For instance, a 'Challenging' RPG is one where you have to be aware of damage and resistance types, Resource Management, injuries etc.

These sorts of features should always be there of course, but the higher the difficulty, the more important managing them becomes.

So, on Easy, you could probably just brute force your way through any encounter. But on Hard, you need to know what type of damage your weapon does, recognise what type of armour your enemy has, and approach the situation accordingly.

[cinder idol]

Borderlands kinda does that but I had so much I hated about the game due to how my lack of RNG luck meant I got 1 legendary for my first playthrough, with a second copy of the same one at the end to add some nice lemon juice to the wound.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah.

It was a decent proof of concept in that regard, but ultimately i think you could develop a much more invovled and interesting system

[cinder idol]

Blades also sorta does that but the game's just not great for me given my processing delay (meaning I have to guess when to parry or dodge instead of being able to see it then do so like regular folk. It's painful).

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. I'm not super keen on systems that require dodging as a basic survival tactic at the best of times...

But anyway, a simple example would be Food. On Easy, you can eat to get bonuses. On Hard, those bonuses are still there, but now you HAVE to eat or you start getting penalties.

[cinder idol]

Yeah, it's one thing to avoid getting close so you don't have to suddenly dodge but Blades is totally against movement in combat.

[weak sapphire]

You aren't adding new mechanics, you're simply making juggling them more important.

[cinder idol]

I'm considering something like this in something I want to make but that means I'm going to have to learn how nutrition works. Stuff like junkier food being an option to avoid starvation but it can mess up your stats in terms of building muscle or cardio, with the best stuff being either super expensive or dangerous to acquire.

[weak sapphire]

Easiest solution is just using Calories as a numerical value. But you could add Protiens and Fats to the scale as well

Calories keep you going. Protiens keep you strong. Fats help you heal faster.

Fats decrease strength, protiens decrease fats. And burning calories decreades both. So you want a balance of all 3.

[dim reef]

Sounds more like a chore than a challenge.

[weak sapphire]

Depends on the specifics of the game

I think, for a game like TES, something simpler is more than enough. Like, eat once every 12 hours, or get a staxking debuff that gets worse every 6 hours you don't eat

However, if I'm playing a game where survival and food management are the core gameplay loop, I'd want something more involved

[dim reef]

It'll still be a chore. Won't even be fun or hard. Food's so easy to come by.

[cinder idol]

Depends on the setting.

[magic tundra]

thb I'm already busy keeping myself fed and hydrated, I don't wanna need to do that for virtual characters I only have a few hours to play with daily

[cinder idol]

But there's so much more, sugars, salts, carbohydrates, vitamins, more I can mention off the top of my head.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, and the depth of the system is going to depend largely on what else the game involves.

[cinder idol]

Probably a lot, I'll be honest.

[cinder idol]

That's understandable.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, i feel like it, like most systems, isn't something you want to overdo in most cases

Game systems should be deep enough to allow variability, but not so deep you beed a degree just to understand them

[zinc vale]

What if you still had all the food and drink options but they just stack in the inventory under "food" "alcohol" "water" with the same effects. You could even make it in survival mode so that your character automatically ticks down the food and drink until they run out, so that you aren't bogged down in inventory management but just need to keep some in your inventory to avoid debuffs

[weak sapphire]

I think that's the easiest way to manage it. If you want to take more direct control, picking what you eat, and when, to get particular buffs, could offer enough incentive to micromanage

[cinder idol]

That works with Kenshi, though you'll have to make sure they don't try to eat raw ingredients or human flesh.

[weary quiver]

You should be able to pick up and eat a pie from someone's pie stand

[cinder idol]

In Blades? I agree. I wanna use the bath but with some privacy. Or use the Gazebo despite their fearsome nature in D&D. Or play those instruments.

[weak sapphire]

Ah, Kensi... i shod actually play that

I just cant get past some of the equipment aesthetics...

[cinder idol]

Most of its start is just levelling running to get fast enough to outrun starving bandits.

[weak sapphire]

I am nkt a fan of asian styles

[cinder idol]

It is an apocalyptic setting but yeah.

[cinder idol]

You might like the Holy Nation then, they use very western looking gear. Just try to avoid them if you have any robotic parts and/or don't have a human male with you.

[weak sapphire]

Kill them and take their stuff

[cinder idol]

True. Their armour shops do sell blueprints for their gear though if you want to make better ones.

[weak sapphire]

I own Kenshi, i may give it ankther go after my latest Rinworld game runs its course

[cinder idol]

Their modding scene is starting to get good, someone added mounts at some point though last I checked the mod was in Alpha.

[weak sapphire]

Oooh

[weak sapphire]

I have discovered that laptop parts are harder to find than all the mysterious gemstoned

[cinder idol]

Probably due to how unpopular gaming laptops are, a budget for a great PC won't get you a very good laptop from what I've heard.

[weak sapphire]

This is just for my work laptop

Need to replace the DC port on it, and despite being a major city, no one has the part

Needs to be ordered special

[dim reef]

i used to have a gaming laptop when i was younger but they kinda die really easily

it lasted for a good 3 years though

[weak sapphire]

I've always been a desktop guy

I like my upgradability

[eager remnant]

I do too, though I rarely upgrade. looks at 2014-era rig and monitor purchased in 2006

[weak sapphire]

My main build is from 2011, one of the first i7s

My monitor is a early 2000s, 18"lcd that caps out at 45hz

[eager remnant]

You have me beat, sir. I salute you! (I suspect I will need to do some serious upgrades before Starfield releases, though)

[weak sapphire]

Indeed. My potato is old enough i think i may deserve a proper funeral at this point.

[coarse ore]

Was the setting for TES6 revealed in the Starfield trailer?

[weary quiver]

A tease that kind of sort of look liked a map of hammerfell and high rock

[spice whale]

some spot, piece of rust on the control panel x) might be our imagination

[magic tundra]

you can play most of it solo, or team up with randos for most things that require a group
there are of course quite some differences to the single player titles, but I do enjoy the game

[weak sapphire]

Maybe, possibly, kinda, not really, probably not.

[violet lily]

I went into it expecting "morrowind but make it MMO" and haven't yet been disappointed. 😁

[violet lily]

Mostly I really enjoy the freedom to explore - my original guild outstripped me when it first when to a subscription because I couldn't afford the cost, and now that I've got spare cash they're all waaaaaay above my level. So I mostly run around exploring the map, trying not to die, and collecting lore.

[dim reef]

Man, nothing more humbling than reaching level 50 and going straight to cyrodil just to get clapped within about 10 minuted of being there, guess ill stick to pve for a while

[magic tundra]

if you go to no-CP PvP, you're technically as strong as anyone else there

[dim reef]

You say that but it sure doesn't feel that way

[magic tundra]

well, I said technically

also, there's stil skill involved

[dim reef]

Ah that may be the issue

oh cool we have sweetrolls now

i only just noticed

the only good emote

[spice whale]

in ESO you can: make yourself a house. Lots of houses, from tiny witchy shack to room at the inn to Tel-Mushroom on VVardenfeel to friggin castle on the isle of Artaeum.. and orc fortress.. and mud shack in Argonia.. and 'public house' with pool and waterfall <.<

housing not your thing? Bring NPC companions to your adventures. So far there's only two, a dunmer lass voiced presumably by Jo Wyatt (Ciri in Witcher 3, female Hawke in DA2), and breton knightly guy. Can dress them, equipe them with any weapon, set the a steed. Yes, they don't run after you, they use mounts x)

companions not your thing? join Dark Brotherhood and kill. Join Thieves Guild and steal. Join Fighters Guild and .. well, kill. Join Mages Guild and.. roleplay. Yeah. Mirri the companion looks good in MG rags, btw. Every faction has quest lines, deadric conspiracies and the like, daily quests, skill lines.

Still not your thing? Walk around. The world is beautiful, even the vanilla locations from 2014. After that graphics got only better, games code was even rewritten from scratch. They use Hero engine if your curious, same stuff that powers SWTOR. Tamriel is mostly open by now, Cyrodiil, Morrowind (Vvardenfell and mainland), Skyrim, Summerset, Elsweyr, Hammerfell, Valenwood, Black Marsh, Wrothgar, High Rock.. Each zone has its thematic main quest, side quests, misc quests, just like solo games.

You'll fall in love with characters. You'll giggle and maybe even cry. That Sweetroll Killer quest made me super sad, though i can't remember why.

are you even still there? @hallow delta

fetching tusking wall of text. Ah and yes, ZOS contributed to local swearings and languages big time

wait for wall of images \o/

https://i.gyazo.com/3e26080c26b5427178ac79e19203c2f9.jpg
here my Reach witch makes and offering to the Spirit Queen

oh bloody hell, don't wanna post pics x) shower time

[wheat sandal]

I hope the next game moves past the absolutely horrendous character design of Skyrim.

Appearance wise, I should specify.

[stiff bramble]

https://bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/elder-scrolls-weird.jpg

[wheat sandal]

The Elves got screwed over, the humans not quite as badly but still pretty ugly.

ESO has by the far the best looking characters, even though it veers into being generic.

[stiff bramble]

Have you ever met Oblivion?

[wheat sandal]

Haunting, but Id still prefer Oblivion over Skyrims characters

Yes, I play it all the time lmfao

[stiff bramble]

You are a true outlier.

[wheat sandal]

Well, theyre both ugly, but Oblivion is an older game, so Ill give it more uhh “credit” as to why theyre ugly.

[weary quiver]

can't make a good looking elf in skyrim. oblivion moon face aint to hot

[wheat sandal]

There are no good looking elves in Skyrim

Oblivion Elves look a little silly, but not gross to look at.

[stiff bramble]

Google search for Oblivion Potato:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/594705619885484636/884D99D10189654DA6365531F92688BA80F317E0/?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true

[dim reef]

oblivion has really nice landscapes though

even if it isn't what people wanted

[stiff bramble]

Oblivion was absolutely gorgeous in 2006.

[dim reef]

but yeah the faces are the worse part of oblivion

[stiff bramble]

Not the very worst part...
https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/101/images/thumbnails/50643/50643-1608695477-173912859.png

[dim reef]

eheh i like the adoring fan

i have funny memories of him

like turning him into a pog emote

[stiff bramble]

By Azura by Azura by Azura! It's the Grand Champion!

[weary quiver]

i'm scared

[dim reef]

oh im sorry

didn't know zalgo- wait you know that word???

didn't know bethesda were into creepy pastas

[stiff bramble]

Bethesda doesn't like Zalgo font, sadly.

[dim reef]

i just wanted to do a lenny face

oh well

live and learn

[wheat sandal]

Oh yeah, dont get me wrong, I still think Oblivion NPCs are ugly, but, 6 years and theyre just as bad (if not worse) Skyrim? Not what I’m looking for in TES6, personally. Id hope theyd copy ESO if theyre gonna copy anything.

[eager remnant]

The thing I disliked about Elves in Oblivion is that they were just humans with pointed ears. In Morrowind and Skyrim they were given appropriately non-human appearances.

[cinder idol]

The wood elves look even worse in Blades.

[dim reef]

they look so dead inside

[wheat sandal]

I mean face wise, yeah, but, the wacky hair and height, the skin tone and what not, was also there.

Blades looks like crap imo

[cinder idol]

I got one randomly as an artisan and he looks like he's in desperate need of a hug, and a shoulder to cry on. I was considering rebuilding the workshop to get another but he looks so sad I feel sorry for him.

[dim reef]

aww

i want him in my town

[cinder idol]

He needs a good home, one where he likely isn't eyeing up the gallows when I'm not looking.

A couple pics of him: #screenshots-and-video message

[weary quiver]

hey wanna buy some magic? wait a minute, that jokes not funny in tes. looks like they were going for a star trek vorta look, but they can be attractive https://i2.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/theship3.jpg?resize=475%2C364&type=vertical&quality=100

[weak sapphire]

Ugh. Just reminded of how much i hate AC and DR equations

Like, make it sinple. You shouldn't need a degree in calculus to figure out how well your armour protects you.

[cinder idol]

Absolutely, that's why I absolutely despised DT in New Vegas over the much less nebulous DR. Nowadays I see its appeal but it still feels incredibly weak as even a .22 can still damage or even kill you if you're in Power Armour but I guess that's the case with Bethesda games in general.

[weak sapphire]

I think the core problem stems from a one dimensional health dynamic if you only handle health in a single way, and 0 health =dead, you need to make it so everything hurts.

So you can't rely on simple Damage - Armour = Ouch because if Armour ever gets higher than the damage, then you're immune ti whatever that damage source is.

[cinder idol]

True but that's how power armour should be, capable of tanking a lot of small arms damage with no ill effects on the wearer until it runs low enough on durability to have gaps form/lower in terms of effectiveness or breaks. Instead it's just armour that malfunctions violently if it smells a hint of EMP.

Likewise that's how I think armour should work anyway, making it much more advisable to think about weak points in armour than just smacking them a bunch with your favoured weapon and hoping they die before you do.

[weak sapphire]

That required a much more precise combat system though, which isn't always viable

[magic tundra]

how do you think about weak points if all you can do is "hit them"?

[cinder idol]

The more precise combat system but also maybe something akin to Blades would also work, where you need the right weapons/enchantments for particular armour types.

[weak sapphire]

I think the latter is probably the cleanest option. For instancr, you need a Hammer or Mace tk deal with Plate armour

However, using Fallout 4s Radiation mechanic also allows you to represent non-lethal damage, which you can still suffer in the heaviesy armour.

Even in Powet Armour, enough blows to the head are likely to knock you out, even if they aren't fatal.

[cinder idol]

True. I wonder how much padding those have. I know in Arma/Day Z that wearing a motorcycle helmet makes being knocked out much harder if not impossible.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. Ultimately the ideal system is one when allows ypu to just beat someone inti submission with a large stick if yoh want ti, but also allows for a lot of variables and strategy if, again, you want to

And tying into Difficulty, paying attention to those variables and strategy should be more and more important the higher tue difficulty

[cinder idol]

I wish that was the case in Skyrim, those infinite magicka mages can't cast spells with permanent brain damage or concussions after all.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah.

[weak sapphire]

But, we should hope for better, not just settle for what we have.

[cinder idol]

Exactly, push the envelope, innovate and all that.

[weak sapphire]

Or even just pull in mew influences a d combine them in interesting ways. Sea of Thieve's sailing, for instance.

[cinder idol]

Exactlly, I imagine Argonians would be great on ships, being able to dive and such. We need underwater combat to return though, more big slaughterfish and such, maybe a harpoon gun of sorts for Marksman.

[weak sapphire]

I'm iffy on Underwater Combat. In order to make it feel distinct and thoughtful, it really needs to be its own distinct thing. Which can be tricky to pull off

[cinder idol]

I felt it worked okay in Oblivion, with bows not being very useful because shooting arrows in water isn't great though I don't remember if underwater magic was a thing.

[weak sapphire]

I think with a more precise and controlled combat system it could work as well

Like, if you had more control over attack types, and Thrusts behaved nkrmally while Swings had a major penalty

[weary quiver]

it would likely have a hitbox floating in space feel

[magic tundra]

touch and self spells worked underwater, target did not

[spice whale]

can't remember any lore restrictions for transformation magic. Turning into animals, taking form of daedra, heck, NPCs - that would be fun

[cinder idol]

True, more options for thieves and assassins.

[spice whale]

and druids, and forest witches.. and how about turning into a shark, oh boy

[cinder idol]

W E R E S H A R K S would be terrifying. They can follow you out of the water and onto boats, no escape.

[spice whale]

something tells me we'll get those actually

[hybrid mesa]

Does anyone know yet if ES6 will be offline-single-player?

Asking because of my concerns for FO5.

[spice whale]

we dont even know if Starfield is solo only, so..

[weak sapphire]

At present, we don't know. All we know is that Bethesda has stated that they will continue to make their traditional single player games, and that Fallout 76 was an isolated case and not an example of a future multiplayer focus.

That statement is almost 3 years old at this point though, so it may no longer be accurate

[hybrid mesa]

Thanks for the answer. ES6 is coming before Starfield?

[dim reef]

No

There’s no release date for tes6 but there is one for starfield

[hybrid mesa]

2022 Nov', that is a long wait. I thought they had been working on this in secret for many years.

So ES6 around '23/24? Or is that too early? Surely, they wouldn't wait that long. They're a bigger company now more than ever. No shortage of devs these days.

[dim reef]

It takes a long time to make a game

Especially if you want to improve beyond Skyrim. That’s gonna take a bit

[hybrid mesa]

I know Todd said their plans for ES6 couldn't run on current-gen hardware, that was some time ago. What about now? Should be ready to handle it?

[eager remnant]

I think most folks assume TES VI will release between 2025-2026.

[hybrid mesa]

staggers back
2025 at least?

They must be joking?

I have to wait for 2030 for Fallout 5?

Phil Spencer said he's in this to win. Meaning to beat Sony at their game. This does not look like a winning strategy.

[dim reef]

You'd have to wait until around 2029-2030, yes.

[dim reef]

It's a very "winning" strategy. This isn't even new. Bethesda's had a 3-4 year project time since like... Almost forever.

[hybrid mesa]

One big game per console launch? I guess they'll sell more consoles that way.

[dim reef]

...they literally made 2 games for the ps4, 3 if you want to count the remaster. For the ps3 they released oblivion, fallout 3, and skyrim. That's 3. And i seriously doubt by the time fallout 5 comes out we'll already have a ps6 and xbox whatever.

[hybrid mesa]

That was before being owned by Microsoft.

[dim reef]

...okay? Do you think them being owned by microsoft, who has said they're not going to interfere, is going to change that?

[hybrid mesa]

They said that? Not going to interfere? But they can "request" and Bethesda obliges.

[dim reef]

They could. They aren't.

[hybrid mesa]

I think they've already started to make "requests". But I'm going by what Phil Spencer said about being competitive. Buying Bethesda is a big move. These are big games. I would think they intend to crank up the speed.

[dim reef]

Crank up the speed (no reason to) so that their games end up like assassins creed and isn't bought? That's a brilliant executive decision. But again, microsoft said things are remaining the same except now bethesda is under microsoft so xbox exclusives. Sounds perfectly competitive to me.

[hybrid mesa]

People still buy Ubisoft games. If Microsoft keeps taking their time, people will have to.

[dim reef]

Lol. Assassins creed can't even compare against bethesda's games. And dude, bethesda's been having 3-4 year gaps. This isn't new. And every one of their games sells.

[hybrid mesa]

Todd said they work on multiple projects at a time. Now that they're owned by a large console developer, they should have the resources to give those projects what they need as if it were the only game they were working on. Right?

[dim reef]

No. Bethesda has it where they have the majority work on the important project (in this case starfield) while a smaller team works on the pre-production (ideas, setting, mechanics, etc.), in this case that's elder scrolls 6.

That's how they do things. And that's probably how they'll continue to do things. It's a perfect system in all honesty.

[hybrid mesa]

So when Microsoft says they won't interfere, what they really mean is, they're not going to invest any more money into larger teams.

[dim reef]

No. It means they aren't going to interfere.

[hybrid mesa]

They bought BGS for the exclusivity?

Only?

[dim reef]

Yes.

[hybrid mesa]

For how much?

[dim reef]

Bethesda's games sell. And xbox lacks on exclusives.

They bought zenimax for iirc 7.5 billion? It might have been million. It's 7.5 something-ion though.

[hybrid mesa]

whoa That is a stinking lot of money.

Minecraft was 2 billion.

I guess that purchase paid off.

I can't even imagine that much money. 7,000 million.

[dim reef]

More people doesn’t mean the work goes by quicker

In the case of script writing it actually goes slower

Ya know, cause people can’t agree on what’s what

[hybrid mesa]

Okay, I can understand having a smaller writing team. Makes sense. So which part is taking the longest in this case?

[dim reef]

Probably the engine tbh but that’s a personal thing

Might not be though

[hybrid mesa]

They're in no hurry.

Can't you just lie to me instead?

[spice whale]

they dont have a writing team, actually. Writer-designer writes books, npc dialogue, makes quests, npc pathing and stuff, and even creates instances

this is how their games are so rich with places to explore <3 no, really, what other open world rpg has 100+ locations, small stories in each? Assassins Creed Odyssey perhaps, yeah. which was made by 2000 people \o/ and which doesnt have books and notes

im hoping TES6 wouldnt take long to develop if they with current gen consoles. all tech would be ready

[hybrid mesa]

2,000 people to make a Ubisoft game? Can't be true. What are they doing?

[spice whale]

yup, they have lots of studios around the globe

rockstar games too actually, gta and rdr

[hybrid mesa]

Oh, wait - I forgot, they release games regularly.

[spice whale]

lemme find a reference..

[hybrid mesa]

I was still thinking Bethesda production-to-launch time cycles.

Bethesda only has a few hundred.

[spice whale]

https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/18/take-two-ceo-strauss-zelnick-im-charged-with-making-hard-decisions/

[hybrid mesa]

In that article, it says Ubisoft is 14,000 people.

What are their jobs?

[spice whale]

dunno \o/

cant remember where i got that 2000 people number but im sure about it

[hybrid mesa]

He is also bragging about making more money. There isn't a GTA6 either yet. Too busy making money.

[spice whale]

money's good, i wish i had some ._ .

[hybrid mesa]

What good is money if you can't buy Fallout 5?

[dim reef]

Oh really?

[eager remnant]

Sjestenka is correct. Bethesda merges the jobs of quest design and writing into a single position (these are separate jobs at most other studios). By my count, 8 quest designer/writers worked on Skyrim and 11 quest designer/writers worked on Fallout 4.

By contrast, Warhorse Studios employed 8 full-time writers when they made Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Bioware employed 12 full-time writers when they made Mass Effect: Andromeda. CD Projekt employed 14 full-time writers when they made The Witcher 3. Rockstar Studios employed 27 full-time writers when they made Red Dead Redemption II.

[dim reef]

oh ok its similar. i thought it was just anyone could make a quest/do a bit of writing

[weary quiver]

Todd said tes6 is now in design phase

There is a good benefit of merging quest design and writing, their familiar with what the engine can do and its limitations.

[weak sapphire]

There is also a major downside... the writing quality

[dim reef]

it would be annoying if you were a quest designer and the writer you were working with was adamant about a thing being somewhere in the quest even though you know that cant happen cause of the limitations

[weak sapphire]

And a well managed and coordinated team can communicate and adapt to that.

However, if you're allowing thjse usjng the tools to write stories within their own known limitations, you throttle room for innovation.

[weary quiver]

yeah i can see why r* needs 2000 resources for quests like chasing around a towed sailboat, jumping and hanging on onto the riggings, hand climbing the swaying riggings, onto the swaying boat and knocking out the driver

[weak sapphire]

For instance, placing static objects in the world. Bethesda didn't even know that was possible until a modder did it. But thinking that was a limitation meant that theyd also never consider any sort of narrative tool that required yoh to barracade a door, or set up a tent

[weary quiver]

and r* the writers were the big cheese

can you imagine a writer at bethesda comes up with a storyline involving breaking into a ladder factory!

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. Hence the issue

Knowing thejr own 'Limitations', they never would. But if you have independent writers, it can sometimes force innovation

[spice whale]

you don't need modders to drop items from the inventory in Morrowind 👍 and their games are usually about giving power to the player.

can't remember one instance that require running away.. except dragon maybe, with hands bound

i'm trying to figure out what you're talking about. A writer who doesn't know engine limits could potentially came up with some cool idea and inspire a whole new game mechanic? that needs to be written and tested? and implemented around the world because new mechanic for one quest sounds like a waste of resources

i'm stupid, i don't understand theory. so here's example of writer-designer's good job. In Dragonborn dlc there's some dungeon with doors that can only be opened by special sword and special moves - horizontal swing, vertical swing.
i don't know for fact if it was really one person's work but this is how BGS work so it's likely is. One person came up with the idea and implemented it, because they can code, write and do all other stuff. Innovation without dragging people from other departments, who have their own deadlines

[cinder idol]

And that sword was the best thing in that DLC, I wish I could've disenchanted the Bloodskaal Blade and used it on a 1 handed sword or something.

[spice whale]

it's like ranged melee, is it? i remember using it in a fight only once, long ago

[weary quiver]

i would like a speech system similar to scouting in madden now. the basic problem is you only have a limited amount of scouts and resources, so you have to be choosy with where and who you scout. so in madden you scout a player for 15 pts to see their best skill (a grade of A+ to F), then 10 for their 2nd best, then 5 for their 3rd. so you should be able to do something similar in speech with various choices neutral/small talk, threatening, charming, subject matter expert...

and everyone hates the scouting in madden, too abstract and nothing like irl scouting. but has some of the mechanisms for a good speech system

[magic tundra]

I've tried so hard to make bloodskal blade work on a one handed, but I think the animation system for one handed doesn't have the necessary support for it

[cinder idol]

;_;

[weak sapphire]

Well, for instance. A writer writes a story, and at one stage it involves going camping in the woods.

When the level and quest designer gets the script, they go over it, and say "Oh, well, that's going to be a problem. We'll have to have them go to a pre-established camp site"

W "Oh, i though they'd set up camp together"

D "Can't do that. Or maybe... Hold on, let me try something".

if you're writing knowing full well the perceived limitations beforehand, you're less likely to encounter those "But can we?" moments. Even if only 1 in 10 of them actually produces a result, you're still getting new ideas and solutions to problems.

An example of this is placing static objects, like fire pits, tents, etc. This is something that Bethesda, according to Howard, thought was impossible in their engine, in game. But a modder figured it out, because they wanted to make a camping mod.

And Beth was apparently so impressed, they actually went back and experimented with it themselves, ultimately leading to Fallout 4's Settlement systems.

[cinder idol]

Limitation breeds innovation, as do modders. Reminds me about how vanilla horses in Minecraft were made under the guidance of a modder that added horses into the game via a mod.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. But when you go in with a perceived limitation, you tend to be less likely to try to push that. When you go in without those perceptions, and instead encounter them directly, you are more inclined to experiment with ways around them.

It's the difference between "Here's what i can do, so i have to write the story This way" and "Here's the story i've written, now how do i make it work?"

[cinder idol]

I suppose it's how bendable the engine's rules are, Bethesda games are blessed with the ability to program stuff in using scripts and even extend them if desired whereas with games like Kenshi there's only a set number of things you can do, so paying a surgeon to cut off a player character's specific limb so you can replace it with a decent cybernetic limb is impossible as scripting isn't possible and limb damage isn't a thing you can get "rewarded" as part of dialogue.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. As with most things, it's a complicated issue

But in general, i think you generally get better stories by writing the story first, then trying to build the quests around it, rather than trying to build the story around quests

[spice whale]

in Morrowind, placing a static object is four moves - open inv, click an item, drag cursor to the ground and click again \o/ i'm thinking Todd meant something else, but yeah, that's not the point here

[weak sapphire]

Well, these sorts of static objects are, like, Full tents, not dropping items.

[spice whale]

what im trying to sell, writer-designer is exactly what BGS needs for their kinds of games. Gameplay first, story can wait

and exploring, getting into old ruins is gameplay since Arena actually

[weak sapphire]

Eeeeh, in terms of basic mechanics, i agree. But when you start getting into Quests, that scale starts to slide the other way

[spice whale]

ah, and seems like there ~is~ a writing team now - at BGS Austin. those folks don't need to spam dungeons

[weak sapphire]

They are the FO76 team yeah?

[spice whale]

yup

[weak sapphire]

Figures. The team that everyone complained about not having a story in their game, is the first one to get an actual writing team.

That siad, i do enjoy 76. It's a different game, but i have no more negative to say about it than i do any other game

[magic tundra]

those are items, not statics

[weary quiver]

by all indications, it seems the marketing team threw keanu reeves into cyberpunk and let the developers figure it out in a couple of years deadline

[spice whale]

and if we swap fork model with a house model it doesn't become static? completely different kind of ...code?

[magic tundra]

it's still a MISC, not a STAT

[weak sapphire]

The way the game treats them is generally different. Though you could probably load a house model as an item...

[magic tundra]

what it means being a MISC or STAT, respectively, has changed over the games, as the engine evolved, but they've always been different

in morrowind, MISCs didn't have any collision, and STATs couldn't be interacted with in any way (except for their collision)

[spice whale]

potato potahto, sounds like

we're not getting anywhere without that interview where Todd says that

[magic tundra]

no, more like, potato, housewall

[eager remnant]

I'd be interested to see your source for this. The official credits for Fallout 76 refer only to "Quest Design & Writing".

[spice whale]

don't have sources, sorry, only speculation

[nimble pond]

@eager remnant Can we better organize the menus? Like make a Elder Scrolls VI Speculation channel? Everything seems to be all over the place in subject. And then sub-menus like Story and Setting, Gameplay Ideas.

And are we able to do that or only mods cause I'm great at organizing

[dim reef]

That sounds pretty overwhelming @-@

[nimble pond]

Skimming this chat for elder scrolls vi chat is beyond overwhelming lol

General chat should be just that, general chat.

[weak sapphire]

Discord does tend to favour more natural conversation rather than clear topical discussion

[nimble pond]

Nothing wrong with natural flow of conversation. Problem is keeping it on topic and online with the subject of the chat channel. Otherwise its just random and all over the place like one channel to talk about everything all at once.

[dim reef]

That’s why I like discord

[nimble pond]

Would be nice to be able to find and engage specifically with what you want to discuss and read about.

They can name a off-topic or random chat channel for that. Like lounge..

[flint quail]

There is an off topic channel, it's called Off Topic

[dim reef]

This isn’t a off topic channel though

We can talk about tes 6 here if you want it’s just there’s nothing to really go off of

[flint quail]

General chars like this one are for pretty much any general TES topic.

[nimble pond]

Good, can we have a Elder Scrolls VI Speculation Channel too? And just overall improvement to organizational structure of chat channels, please?

[weak sapphire]

It has it's uses, yeah. But the Forum also allowed for more in-depth discussions that Discord just isn't formatted for

[dim reef]

I guess it’s a bit scarier to ask a simple question here than it would be on a forum

[nimble pond]

If I want to read about Elder Scrolls VI chat, there is no channel for it. Therefore I have to look thru all the channels to figure out where to find that kind of conversation. Since there isn't one. Have to skim thru all this other stuff that isn't even about ES VI.

[dim reef]

You can try searching for tes 6 stuff on the search bar

[nimble pond]

I fret at the idea of going thru this entire chat log looking for just stuff about ES VI. Probably so much to skim thru that is unrelated to it..

[flint quail]

You say that but I just did that in lore chat and not only got a timely answer but pointed in the direction of another topic that's caught my interest.

[nimble pond]

To be listed in search you'd have to mention elder scrolls 6 everytime you posted which not everyone does and its tedious. Not to mention having to search thru several channels..

[dim reef]

Have you tried clicking on the comment that mentions tes 6?

It takes you to the conversation

[nimble pond]

It would be nice to have it all in one place. Why do I have to need to ask for directions to someyhing?

At least the forums had somewhat a structured format.

Yea, maybe that conversation, but not all of them.

And not everyone includes the tag word when talking about it so it won't show up in search

[green zodiac]

https://tenor.com/view/pepe-why-pepe-pepehands-crying-gif-12683546

[eager remnant]

We have a #discord-suggestions chat where anybody can recommend changes in the forumat. I would try posting your suggestions there. 🙂

[frigid hatch]

Hello all! I'm giving a talk tonight on my archaeogaming research, hosted by RMGuild. TES features heavily. Let me know if you're interested!

[nimble pond]

Ty so much!

[eternal tapir]

I hope Elder Scrolls 6 doesn't telegraph player choice as much, further incentivizing exploration and replay value.

[dim reef]

What?

[eternal tapir]

Don't make too many player choices right up-in-your-face, that's what i'm hoping.

Skyrim was pretty bad at that

[spice whale]

i hope the hardest choice would be what to wear. and i hope there'd be plenty to wear \o/

[nimble pond]

You mean like you want to be able to wander and engage more with the game environment and atmosphere? As if you were a bandit or wanderer with different quests depending on your role?

That kind of player freedom sounds wonderful, but I don't think we are there yet.

[dim reef]

I don't...see the issue with player choice. I also don't think skyrim put it in your face.

[eternal tapir]

More like this... Let me give an example, imagine if Lights Out did something like i'm saying

• If you shouted in front of either Deeja or Jaree-Ra before talking to them, or complete enough side quests to where the player builds enough of a reputation they don't double-cross the player and just give them their half of the loot.
• If you go to Broken Oar Grotto and slaughter everyone there, with or without taking the journal if you don't talk to them first, Jaree-Ra and Deeja will vanish from Solitude. When you go to Goluem-Ei as part of the Thieves' Guild quest, he will mention how they had to bail because of a "tragedy"
• If you reject Jaree-Ra's offer, he will never bring up the option again, and several in-game days later a dead body will appear at the Lighthouse, both the lighthouse guard and the job-taker dead from a struggle.

[nimble pond]

Okay so you mean you want more availability in how you approach quests and whatnot. Doing it your own way with broader availability of approach?

[eternal tapir]

Yes.

[dim reef]

You phrased that so weirdly.

[eternal tapir]

I could've said More Subtle 😦

[dim reef]

The choices in Skyrim are already rather subtle.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with non-subtle choices.

[nimble pond]

Like I said that kind of player freedom would be great yes having so many different results and approaches to work with. But I don't think we are quite there yet

[dim reef]

Why are we not there yet?

[spice whale]

i really wouldnt want to miss on quest because i happened to clear dungeon first

[nimble pond]

To do that now, like the entire game would have to be radiant and even more so with the results of player actions. That's a massive pool.

[dim reef]

Not really. All you'd need to do is make triggers for certain options you did. Clear the cove? There's the quest trigger. It'd work the same way it does already but just more variety.

At least i would think so. It feels like that'd be the most efficient way to do it.

[nimble pond]

Yea but to what extent? How much?

[spice whale]

miss the content, the story and characters because you let your curiosity take over and explore that dungeon? please dont

[nimble pond]

Thats a lot of re-working on the same quest lines and interaction with the game world on top of everything else put into the game

[eternal tapir]

Like he's saying. I hate to bring this up again but Cyberpunk 2077 does what i'm saying for the majority of its quests despite the subtlety... and I don't see how Bethesda can't take notes and extend the scope of that approach within 6-7 years.

[dim reef]

For quests where it makes sense. Not every quest needs variety like that. I much prefer how bethesda does choice and consequence. They're sparse but that means a lot more effort went into it.

[dim reef]

Replayability is a thing.

[nimble pond]

I mean it would make sense for every quest if you do one of them.

[spice whale]

in TES they let players do everything with one char, its not like Dragon Age or other rpgs

[dim reef]

Yeah... Not in morrowind. Or oblivion. Or even skyrim.

[nimble pond]

Say you approach one location and slaughter everyone. It has an effect on that quest line in that location. Buy then you do the same thing in another location and have it not affect it??

[dim reef]

Not every location needs to be tied to a quest or affected, no.

Plus this is legit just going off the guy's example.

[nimble pond]

You can't get the same result with every player choice in the quests though. Like you can't both not kill paarthunax and be accepted by the blades.

Its one or the other.

[spice whale]

aye, true about Paarty

[nimble pond]

I was referring to the other locations that would probably be tied with various quests.

[dim reef]

And as i said, not every quest needs this kind of variety. I like how bethesda does choice and consequence. Sparse but it has actual impact.

[nimble pond]

But how you decide which quests should apply when you can virtually do the same approach with most of them and then only having it affect some quests or whatever that location or characters there are connected to?

[spice whale]

say people, whats your current state in fallout 4? game with both consequences and randomized quests, respawning dungeons. like, you built up your fortresses, you picked sides in war, then what?

[nimble pond]

Mods

Lol

Its an offline game afterall

not like eso or something where devs constantly add content

[dim reef]

Quest designers would decide.

[nimble pond]

You're not understanding my point Ben, never-ending we're talking in circles

It wouldn't make sense having it affect some. But then doing the same thing magically doesn't affect the rest?? I would just be confused

[spice whale]

my fallout 4 progress stuck at the point where i need to pick sides. i build towns that i love and dont want to see gone, gathered collectibles, made relationships with companions. i dont wanna lose any of this and so i cant finish the game \o/ hard choices mixed with user created content made it impossible for me to continue the story

so i really wouldnt want that from TES or Starfield

[nimble pond]

Make separate save slots.

Its hard to provide enough results that pleases everyone and heavily involved

[spice whale]

no worries, i have 2500 hours played, did everything game offers

i meeean.. this is my lastest ever f4 character. i wanna see her commonwealth grow, towns build. dont wanna make hard choices and lose some of it

[dim reef]

I don't get what's so bad about losing content when you can just replay the game.

[nimble pond]

Right now its best to just give a good story and allow players some freedom send cuztimation engaging and being a part of that story or game world. And it doesn't hurt to have varying different results within the story and ending at certain points so long as it doesn't ruin the overall story. Maybe even a ending that is open-ended and up to your own interpretation

But this also rang a bell in me for an idea.

[spice whale]

not just a content - my content \o/ my towns on bridges, my farms, temples of the Hub. nobody doubts building comes with tes 6, right? same thing then

[dim reef]

You aren't going to lose any of that though.

You're ironically locking yourself out of content.

[nimble pond]

It would be neat to me, if they had a sort of survival mode like in other games. Not like actual survival though, but the whole game world opened up, just without the whole player story you are forced to be a part of. No storyline quests. So you can be whatever role u want to be in that gsme world. Like maybe you want to play the game and be in it, but not be the DragonBall. Which is the main theme or point of skyrim.

[weary quiver]

l33t fo4 players build immersive settlements, like a inn at taffington boathouse, or a bos obersvation post at coastal cottage

[weak sapphire]

My main beef with 'choices' is how daft alternate endings are. Lets strip away all impact and meaning to events by making them illusiory, impermanent or 'non canon'

Such immersion. Very wow.

[dim reef]

Except no elder scrolls game has done that that i can think of.

[eternal tapir]

You can always dragon break them

See, everything's canon now

[spice whale]

been thinking. hard choices and punishing consequences would be all right if game let us keep the losing party as prisoners <3 Institute/brotherhood/railroad scum you're outmaneuvered, all your base is belong to us, surrender and live \o/ yes Maxson even you

not a case in TES games but you know, just humoring

[weak sapphire]

Or, you know... "We don't want to deal with this so" tosses paper in the air "Look over there!" runs to blackmarsh

[teal brook]

Could we get an elder scrolls 6 chat too pwetty plz ? ❤️

[eager remnant]

We have a #discord-suggestions channel. It's a great place to offer suggestions like this. 🙂

[weary quiver]

the only choice in a game that was impactful and gave me pause for thought was choosing whether my character or lilith kills handsome jack in bordlerands 2. i think you got a handsome jack mask if you let lilith kill him

and i was really dissapointed i couldnt kill all 3 protagonists in gta5

[fringe path]

I wonder if BGS would try to take advantage of their relationship with Arkane and have them help in the reworking of a lot of the magic and melee combat, like how id helped improve Fallout's gunplay 🙂

[eternal tapir]

Fallout 3 had some of the worst gunplay i'd ever seen in an RPG

[fringe path]

which is why id helped improve it for 4

[weak sapphire]

I think Melee combat is a tricky thing to deal with. I... don't acutally super like Dishonoured's melee

It's good for Dishonoured, but for a more free-form, you control style of game? Not so much

[fringe path]

I was thinking more along the lines of Dark Messiah personally

[weak sapphire]

That would be a better start. But i think a combination of Daggerfall, Dark Messiah, and Vermintide...

[fringe path]

what would you have them take from each?

[weak sapphire]

Ideally? Analogue controls and attack-types from Daggerfall. Envionmental interactions and stagger effects from Dark Messiah. Movement and mobility, and milti-target effects from Vermintide

So, in my ideal system, L-Click and moving your mouse Up, thrusts.

Buuut, i undestand that's not very popular. so, i've tweaked my own proposal to something similar. Click-Thrust. Hold-Swing. Alt-Special Move.

[fringe path]

I personally think it would be better to hold for thrust and click for swing but that's just me I could re-map it lol

I've never played Daggerfall. What do you mean by analogue controls and attack types?

[weak sapphire]

Daggerfall's controls worked by holding the Mouse Buttons and moving the mouse. Down was an overhead chop, Up was a thrust, side to side was a swing in that direction. Input delay in Daggerfall's era made it a terrible system.

But, Dead Island implemented something similar, and it was... Almost magical.

[fringe path]

sounds like a fun system

I do think though that with the amount of weapons TES has to offer that would really suck to program

[weak sapphire]

Yeah, which is why i conceptually simplified it.

Swing and Thrust allow you to cover variable attack modes for most weapons ever designed. You can then use a 'Special' command to execute more specialsied attacks, like Power Attacks, Spins, Uppercuts etc.

[dim reef]

I want an actual loot list for elder scrolls 6.

[fringe path]

I really hope that they bring back spears and other fun weapons like that

as well as more modular armors like in Morrowind

[weak sapphire]

I have actually played with a system that is no more complicated on the equipment end than Fallout 4

On the Crafting end, it allows for more variability than Morrowind did

[fringe path]

like my personal ideal TESVI would be the swordplay from Dark Messiah, the RPG mechanics from Outer Worlds, the weapon and armor variety of Morrowind, and to finally have Bretons be more than a footnote lore-wise

Breton pride

gang gang

[dim reef]

I don't think what i have in mind is that complicated.

Dwemer gear found in dwemer ruins and high class smiths/merchants.

Elven and glass gear found on elves and high class smiths/merchants.

Orcish gear found on orcs and orc smiths.

Etc.

No more "oh you reached level 20, now everyone has access to [insert material here].

[dim reef]

The only thing anyone should take from outer worlds are double skill checks. Nothing else.

[fringe path]

that makes sense

[fringe path]

I'm functioning on 3 hours sleep rn please enlighten me as to what double skill checks are and why they should be the only thing taken from Outer Worlds

[dim reef]

Like how in the outer worlds you can be dumb but also have high science skill. Or use both medicine and guns within the same dialogue choice.

[weary quiver]

Fo3 is the only beth game I only played through once. My simple objective criteria for a great movie or game is one you can watch or play repeatedly... but have to say fo3 was great

[dim reef]

You should play 3 again. It's probably the best fallout game to exist.

[weary quiver]

Meh Obsidian let's you be a courier with 1 end

[fringe path]

I do prefer Skyrim's progression system. Base stats are pretty wack imo

[weary quiver]

Skyrim offended my rpg sensibilities with its lack of attributes but the branching build and leveling up skills with use was dope

[weak sapphire]

Obsidian... well, i have nothing positive to say about them, so i will keep my mouth shut

[fringe path]

yeah maybe the Fallout 4 system would be better. I think it balances the base SPECIAL stats with the perk system of Skyrim

[dim reef]

Or we can just keep skills and attributes.

[weak sapphire]

Not as they were though

[dim reef]

They worked fine.

[fringe path]

I'm not a fan of traditional RPG progression personally. They're kind of a drag. I put up with it in D&D but that's because it's D&D and there's nothing you can do to change that really

[dim reef]

Skills level up as you use them, your attributes would improve upon leveling. It's not that traditional and it worked well enough.

[weak sapphire]

Eeeeeh , im not sober enough for this conversation, so I'll address it next time it comes up

[weary quiver]

Another tough philosophical design issue is level caps or not. No easy answers

[dim reef]

I prefer level caps.

[fringe path]

good point

[weary quiver]

Bad things about cap is playing is feckless once you reach max

[dim reef]

I disagree. I'm still playing fallout 3 at max level. If all someone cares about is "experience points" then crafted rpgs and worlds to live in probably aren't for them.

[prime marlin]

i like how 76 handles level caps

you level up forever but you only have 50 total points between everything

[nimble pond]

I mean I kinda liked the idea with being able to legendary skills in Skyrim. But I would take it a step further and offer prestige ranks for skills. So it caps but you can keep raising your prestige level of that skill each time you cap it and maybe get special unlocks per prestige of each skill or skill group.

[cinder idol]

True, I liked it in that honestly.

[cinder idol]

(I'm working on at least 1 homebrew that does levels differently, not much new you can do with gear progression though)

[weak sapphire]

It still needed work, but it did show that we could implement a Daggerfall-esque combat control system withiht the clunky delays

[weary quiver]

Fo76 kind of gets it right with legendary perks. Skyrim also had the virtuous spiral of crafting, enchanting, and alchemy that I never completely maxed out, which was cool

Also state of decay solves max level problem with permadeath XD

[fringe path]

Has anyone here seen that "The Elder Scrolls: A Promise Unfulfilled" video and can tell me the main idea of it? I don't wanna watch it because I think it's just gonna make me mad but I'm curious about what it has to say

[dim reef]

Basically it's indigo saying "look how they murdered my boy" because he doesn't like the new ones. It's a morrowind fanboy being a morrowind fanboy.

@fringe path

[weak sapphire]

The worst kind of Morrowind fanboy

Like, i'll admit, i'm a Morrowind fanboy. And i regularly act like a Morrowind Fanboy. But there are some people out there who just... Refuse to acknowledge that it is, it's self, a deeply flawed game.

[dim reef]

Honestly nothing's changed by the standards of elder scrolls. They're rather consistent. Live another life, experience stories, and more. As much as i love daggerfall, morrowind and oblivion and while i give skyrim flack, skyrim has given my the most fun in a game ever. And i get the same things from it i'd get from morrowind.

[weak sapphire]

Flipping through the video again, i'm reminded by how... Well, wrong Indigo is on some points

Like, he claims that CDPR managed to make every main and side quest in The Witcher 3 fascinating.

[dim reef]

Never played witcher 3. But honestly whenever i see people play it, it feels so lifeless compared to skyrim. Or even oblivion. Feels a lot more like morrowind to me.

[weak sapphire]

Nevermind that it came out 4 years later than Skyrim, but that's not even a remotely true statement. Sidequests in particular were highly formulaic and while there were some good ones, most were just meaningless and boring.

[dim reef]

Kind of reminds me when avarti said the last dragonborn is a bad protagonist because they don't interact like geralt does.

[weak sapphire]

Well, i mean...

Geralt is Geralt. The Last Dragonborn needs to be able to accomodate hundreds of indiividual character identities.

[dim reef]

Exactly. Avarti compared a rather linear shaped character to a non-linear shaped template.

It'd be like if i said the dot in adventure on the atari is a bad protagonist compared to mario.

[weak sapphire]

Yeah. And some people want that sort of structured character. Which is fine, but that isn't really the sort of game TES has been

[cinder idol]

I think Morrowind and Skyrim are two sides of the same coin, one requiring decent preparation, planning and knowledge of directions, landmarks etc. to do much of anything and is as grounded as it could get while Skyrim is more dumb fun than anything else, mired in spectacle and rule of cool where you can just relax and play it head empty, no worries about hit chance if you're an okay shot but capable of some seriously difficult but fun stuff like having a bow duel with a bandit as you both slide down a cliff or using the very maximum range of bows to take out a couple of powerful mages with height and stealth advantage, one randomly aimed spell enough to kill.

[dim reef]

I don't think skyrim's "dumb fun" and just "rule of cool".

[violet lily]

this is also why I take issue when people complain about the main questline in TESO, or other MMOs

there's only so much that can be done to accommodate the idea that thousands of people want to have a unique experience doing the same quests as thousands of others

[cinder idol]

My only issue with ESO is "if everyone's super, no one will be". Why does everyone have to be the Chosen One? Just make them all random adventurers.

[dim reef]

My issue with eso is it exists.

[weary quiver]

geralts a pretty terribly cringy try hard protagonist, pretty laughable. just compare him to aragorn, who is totally not a try hard who picks flowers and sings for hobbits

and in lotr they initially casted someone younger for aragorn that focus groups would like, which would have totally been wrong

[fringe path]

Wack

What I don't get is everyone on the internet complaining about games they weren't gonna buy anyway. However I am guilty of doing that with Pokemon so who am I to judge

[eager remnant]

I don't either.

[weary quiver]

eso is arcady, and that is something i can come to terms with and cope and maybe something i play on gamepass or something

[weak sapphire]

Eeeh, the way the game is structured mostly just treats YOU as special. Everyone else are just people in the world.

There aren't thousands of Vestiges running around beating up Molag Bal.

[dim reef]

Pretty sure there are.

[weak sapphire]

The way the game handles your character and their actions suggests otherwise. Varen never mentions others, and while some quests do direct you to 'Gather allies' they never really directly impose status on them

It's structured that you are still the focal point.

[dim reef]

It doesn't matter if an npc doesn't say "there are 1,000,000 vestiges". There are still player characters bunny hopping about doing the same things as you for the same reasons as you.

its kinda just vaguely implied thats whats happening i guess

Online games honestly shouldn't have stories. Or at least main quests.

i like eso's main quest tbh

its cheesy near the end though

I'd like it if it had actual good writing and lore and weren't online.

the online part ruins it yea

[weak sapphire]

Sure, but the story being told isn't about them. That's what i'm saying. In YOUR story, all those other PCs are just adventurers, soldiers, and what-nots. Just like you are to them.

You are right, however, the nature of the online MMO environment makes it so that heroic storytellingof that nature is always going to be a bit clunky.

It's not like Destiny, where you're all Guardian, all acknowledged as Guardians, and all fighting for a collective goal.

[dim reef]

Adventurers, soldiers, and whatnots bunny hopping everywhere like a normal person would.

[weary quiver]

my argonian used to lizard hop around the world in oblivion to raise his endurance

most unimmersive thing ever!

[dim reef]

You doing it is fine. Not 20k people all over the map.

[weak sapphire]

Well, as i said, regardless of their behaviour, the game and it's story don't treat them like that.

Gameplay =/= Story

[weary quiver]

maybe if you think of bunny hoppers as people doing calisthenics to improve their cardio that would restore your immersion

[weak sapphire]

Or, don't think of them as literally bunnyhopping around, any more than you think you can literally make a suite of armour out of nothing but metal bars.

[eager remnant]

When I play online games I think of all the other players I see as NPCs with unpredictable AI. 😁

[cinder idol]

No, it's to learn how to jump good. Seriously though Acrobatics was great, it allows you to get up to high places better and even get out of the map in some spots.

[nimble pond]

Whats wrong with bunny-hopping? Am I not normal D:

[dim reef]

Nothing. It's only a problem on online games because it destroys immersion.

[nimble pond]

I mean that is subjective. That particular feature doesn't distract me, but other features might. Eye of the roleplayer.

Plus the point of ESO was online capability and features. You strip it of that and it's even more barren.

[dim reef]

Maybe eso shouldn't exist.

[weary quiver]

i think eso uses unity engine and it shows. kind of a generic looking world with a lot of generic mechanics. as long as you accept it as a non-bgs game i guess you can enjoy it for that

[dim reef]

didn't zenimax make their own engine?

[weary quiver]

they don't have much too show for it 😛 yeah not 100% sure myself

[nimble pond]

Why? Because you don't like something? Can't please everyone nor should a individual's opinion be catered to over everyone else. Everyone likes and dislikes different things. That is just life.

[dim reef]

Because eso is a heavily monetized mmo game that is badly written and changes lore simply to change it with little to no actual nuance. It's gameplay isn't anything like an actual elder scrolls game, which fallout 76 made an online game actually feel like a fallout game. The only thing good about eso is the variety of armor/weapon types based off racial design and khajiit subspecies being shown in one game.

Eso is a stain on the elder scrolls.

[nimble pond]

It's easy enough to just say you prefer offline games.

[dim reef]

Except i don't just dislike it for being online.

[distant star]

I have to disagree there, it adds alot of lore that expands on stuff imo, I love how they expand some stuff

[nimble pond]

But that is pretty much how MMOs work.

[weak sapphire]

Eeeh, i could say the same about Oblivion. But i accept that some people really like it, despite the fact i... Very much do not, and think it fundamentally ruined several things (the Deadlands, Sheogorath, basically all of Cyrodiil)

[dim reef]

It'd be fine if eso had good writing.

[weak sapphire]

For the most part, ESO's lore additions have been better than most of the base games, and is competently written.

[nimble pond]

And its sold over 15 million copies. If you don't like it, great, you're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else.

[weak sapphire]

Unlike, you know.. Oblivion's factions.

[dim reef]

Oblivon's factions were competently written.

[nimble pond]

Also eso was not made by bethesda, ppl forget that.

[dim reef]

And it didn't ruin sheogorath or the deadlands. Or cyrodiil. Simply lack of tech made bethesda improvise and change stuff.

I know bethesda didn't make eso.

[weak sapphire]

Eh, the Fighters Guild and Dark Brotherhood totally collapse under any scrutiny, the Mages Guild somehow managed to turn freaking Manimarco into a bare footed buffoon, and the Theives Guild... Well, it was competently written, it was just a terrible premise.

[dim reef]

I disagree with all of that.

[nimble pond]

I take it you're not a fan of Elder Scrolls Legends or Blades either Ben, lol.

[dim reef]

I like legends. Haven't played blades yet.

[weak sapphire]

shiver The original story for Legends made me hate everything else about the game. Though i understand the expansions aren't bad

it's just... SO BAD. "We're a militaristic autocracy who has spent decades preparing for this war, but need a magical macguffin to fight on an even playing field with a politically fractured nation in decline that hasn't actually fought a war in over a century!"

https://tenor.com/view/smort-smart-peralta-gif-5914562

[nimble pond]

Lol

[weak sapphire]

Might as well call Commander Chenkov a strategic genius

[dim reef]

oof and you don't like eso for changing lore

[nimble pond]

Oh well, it is what it is

[dim reef]

blades is inoffensive mostly with lore

doesn't risk anything

Every elder scrolls changes lore. I have an issue with eso because i don't think it has good writing nor actually cares.

neh? ok sorry i might of accused you of something then

[nimble pond]

I think they mean they just don't generally enjoy MMOs. Because that is how a MMO functions by design. It's not meant to be the focal point on story and all that in rich detail you'd see in an offline game or with limited online capabilities. MMOs are largely catered to their online features.

[dim reef]

Oh yes, i also hate mmos.

[nimble pond]

There ya go, lol

[weak sapphire]

They have their place, but i prefer single players

Some of what ESO has added has been spectacular though. The Argonian lore is great, the development of the Khajiit was really good, the diversification of Orcish cultures was fantastic

[nimble pond]

Pros and cons to everything

Still not much on the dwarves though as far as I hear, Todd won't let them, lol.

Damn!

[weak sapphire]

Listen, when you build a robot that breaks time every time you turn it on, you're lucky people even REMEMBER you

[distant star]

Not much but we get some, Arniel’s Endeavor for example gave a good hint

[dim reef]

did the dwemer even turn it on?

[nimble pond]

I'll have to look that up, sounds interesting

[dim reef]

they just kinda did a wack and poof

[dim reef]

numidium is a good boy

[weak sapphire]

Maybe. Red Moment and all

[dim reef]

i feel bad for the dwemer in hammerfell

they had no idea that would happen

[weak sapphire]

One moment, you're just digging holes in the sand. The next, Poof. You're whatever-happened-to-the-Dwemer'd

[nimble pond]

Lol

Whatever happened, I think they are still there somehow, somewhere.. Because Yagrum Bagarn was not affected, but he also was in another outer realm when the rest of the Dwemer vanished from Nirn.

[weak sapphire]

I favour the Golden Skin explanation myself

Bagarn only survived by not being in Mundus when it happened

[fringe path]

What mechanics do you wanna see implemented in TESVI the most? I want more movement options and better opportunities in the environment to utilize those options as I see fit. The way a lot of immersive sim type games do it

[nimble pond]

I like really immersive and richly-detailed environments, atmosphere that appeals to the senses, visually and audio

And thru environmental interactions as well

And of course, endless choice of weapons to use lol

And combat methods

[weak sapphire]

As a core gameplay mechanic, i want combat improved.

NPC interaction, Movement, Magic, character building, they all good as they are mechanically. They just need more volume but are mechanically sound.

Combat, on the other hand, is 20 years behind the cirve, and is clunky, offers poor control, and zero strategy.

[fringe path]

Aurally :)

What if they put acrobatics back in the games? Like what if at a certain point you unlock a sort of double jump if you hold down the jump button (like in Dishonored) I think that would be cool as heck, and actually make the acrobat build feel acrobatic lol

[weary quiver]

I want scissor kick someone in the back of the head like pro wrestling

[weary quiver]

I want giant moving dwemer gears and pistons we can platform

[weak sapphire]

There are few thing i hate more than how Jumping worked in Oblivion and Morrowind. Stupid ass redirecting movement mid air cartoonishly moronic nonsense...

That said, Dying Light showed that a mkre dynamic mobility model is possible, so including some of that into Acrobatics could make it viable. There would have to be a significant weight penalty, though...

[weary quiver]

we need more twirling, twirling, twirling!

[weak sapphire]

No, bad

https://tenor.com/view/jermichael-no-urn-spray-bottle-spray-gif-13258723

[fringe path]

Captain Sensible is really letting me have it lol

[eternal tapir]

Starfield needs a FORTNITE BATTLE ROYALE mode

[dim reef]

nani?

[nimble pond]

Ties Capt Sens1ble up in a Sharpshooter using a ball of yarn

As far as Acrobatics, I felt like they should just bring climbing in normally.. while putting acrobstic special moves and maneuvers with perks in the sneak skill tree(s).

[nimble pond]

It is said that you are the last of the space explorers in Starfield. Spoiler So maybe we'll finally get to learn where the dwarves went when we too vanish in Starfield:p

[weary quiver]

i want to properly be able to climb walls like a d&d thief

[nimble pond]

Hopefully, residents will possess the common sense to setup wall/window/roof traps to protect their precious cargo from our wall-climbing looters. Varying levels of traps depending on the value of the goods inside the building.

[dim reef]

I want the persuasion system from Oblivion back, I want more Customization options, more weapons and Custom Spells

[weak sapphire]

Really? Oblivion's "Persuasion" system? Of all the atrocious things in that game, i think that was probably the worst.

[eager remnant]

I agree 100%. In my opinion, Oblivion's Persuasion mini-game was the worst game mechanic Bethesda has ever implemented in any of their games.

[weak sapphire]

Thats not to say better persuasion and conversational interaction isn't something we need... just... not that. I don't even know what that was supposed to be.

[dim reef]

I enjoyed the persuasion mini game tbh

But yeah pretty sure I’m in the minority there

[spice whale]

that mini game was entertaining and it showed off expressions

[weak sapphire]

The minigame its self wasn't bad, it was just how nonsensical and atrociously implemented it was

Like, Disposition was so pointless in Oblivion you basically didn't ever jeed to use it, unless you wanted lower prices (and gold was so easy to get, who cares?).

On top of that, it wasn't really representative kf any sort of social interaction, and (at leasy to me) only reinforced the clunky Anamatronic Theme Park feel of the whole game.

[spice whale]

disposition unlocks dialogue options, actually

[dim reef]

But I wanna be friends with all the guards

If I befriend them enough they ignore my crimes

[spice whale]

and it was definitely progress from Morrowind's quick save, fail to persuade, reload

[weak sapphire]

Few of which are ever relevant to anything.

And then, because of the moronic Fame thing, everyoneives you after you do a few quests anyway

Ok, i take it back. Fame and Infamy was even worse than the Persuasion Wheel

Just.... ugh. Does Cyrodiil have freaking Facebook? How the sweet hell does Fame even work in that world?

[spice whale]

fame is when people talk about you \o/ yep

[weak sapphire]

Sorry, im getting too far into 'Everything about Oblivion is terrible' territory. I'll be more constructive now.

[spice whale]

and for the record, they don't call you a hero of Kvatch right after you closed those gates, it takes days for rumors to spread

[dim reef]

Again I kinda enjoyed npcs seeing me as evil if I killed 15 people

But knights of the nine ruined it

[spice whale]

and i have no idea what happens when fame is negative, never played that kinda char

does it get negative like F3's karma or just stays low?

[dim reef]

You can’t really get fame to be below 0

[spice whale]

ah

[dim reef]

Anything bad is in the infamy and anything good is in the fame points

[simple heron]

@dim reef

[dim reef]

Yes?