elder-scrolls-general-chat

[dim reef]

I disagree. Fallout 4's cc is absolutely fantastic and can rival many ccs even today.
When i said hold up i meant it stood the test of time really well

There are some things they can still improve upon sure. Body shape for example. But overall it was really good

Cos for some reason EVERYONE is the exact same height in 4

[feral viper]

That's where I draw the line from decent (what I consider some minimum standard) and excellence.

Both Eve and BDO not only allow you to adjust height, but individual limbs. BDO a bit less so, it allows you to adjust the mass of limbs somewhat but not necessarily the individual length, due to animation concerns, but Eve (at least 3 years ago when I last played) did.

You can not only create the weirdo from Lady in the Water in Eve, but you can create Hanson the Butler.

[late inlet]

I'm already enjoying TES Castles. Should I get the Emperor's Pass?
(I'm not sure if this is the right channel though)

[feral viper]

I did. Though I actually think holding off until you've sorta planned out what you want to do may be warranted.

The characters from it are great, but age like everyone else. So if you take the plunge early, you run the risk of losing their traits before you've really hit the 'designer' phase.

That said, they can also be really useful early, as Tiber in particular is a monster on the early Quests.

[feral viper]

Hopefully that insight helps you make a decision

[late inlet]

I think I will go for it.

[feral viper]

So. Interesting interview with Kurt Kuhlmann came out yesterday..

[pulsar root]

Mr Empire Strike's back Headshake

[feral viper]

I don't agree with the direction he supposedly wanted to take things, yeah.

But it's interesting that he indicates that 76 and Starfield were sorta on-the-fly decisions, and there was at least the indication in-house that TES6 was to follow FO4.

[livid ingot]

You read that as well eh

Yes, very interesting interview.

But it does almost imply - incredibly - that the setting was not decided upon as late as 2023

Though maybe Kuhlmann was just tactfully dodging the question

[feral viper]

Some of the internal management statements also explain a few things... But that's a whole other discussion.

[livid ingot]

Yeah. This is an entirely different studio from the one that made Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, etc

We should be prepared to accept that

I think most people have not. I certainly haven't -- and I intellectually understand it to be the case

[feral viper]

I don't think different is a bad thing, of course..

If they can deal with the obvious problems.

[pulsar root]

Its still going to be a Bethesda game for the most part. All that interview gave is there was typical big studio problems, that is if thats the case and Kuhlmann wasn't skewing what happened.

[feral viper]

True. Though given the result of Starfield... I'm inclined to believe him on the communication issues.

[livid ingot]

"What is a Bethesda game?" is the question we should be asking

[pulsar root]

@_@ Thats not even a question. Looking at past previous Bethesda games you can tell each game has a lot of the same feel. Starfield differs because of its setting. 76 because of its multiplayer genere.

[feral viper]

Nah, Starfield is still a Bethesda game. It's got the exact same feel.

[livid ingot]

I think it's worth asking. What is considered a staple of the IP? What merely reflected the desires of the people building them? Game developers change things up, obstentiously to improve but that's always not the case. What do we actually expect to remain of Skyrim 16-ish years later?

Lot's of stuff we might think integral might be tossed out or transformed beyond recognition

[dim reef]

Makes sense. The game only started actual development in late 2023

No sense deciding a setting years in advance

Tho this would likely mean those damn mountains from the teaser mean nothing

[feral viper]

The setting is going to define a lot about the game though.

[feral viper]

It does make the teaser sound more superfluous, doesn't it?

[pulsar root]

The setting matters because Open space is harder to nail without making it "boring"

Each Bethesda game usually takes place in one big world space. Starfield is different in the regard its all spread out everywhere(With multiple world spaces, the POI is spread out and far more repeative, in a detrimental way. Even if one finds the gunplay fun, it will still drag on you.

Which for the record I liked Starfield but I think they presumed a bit too much that their formula would be fine in a space setting without much changing. Hence the procedural generation and repeat Cryolabs on random planets with the same audio tape >_<

[dim reef]

True but even so. I'd wager they had a bunch of ideas before finally selecting a location.
FO4 did the same as i recall

They started having ideas early on but Boston was only selected around the time development actually started

[feral viper]

Oh, I agree. I just think that, on the whole, Starfield had the normal Bethesda feel.

And that feel is... Janky Brilliance

[dim reef]

Yup. I thought as much but i figured atleast it'd have some basis. Now it seems it was entirely... made up at random

[feral viper]

Bethesda's games are never great because of what they are. They are great because you can always feel the potential behind the result

[livid ingot]

A lot of this stuff goes through a long paper and planning stage, years in advance. But it's easy to completely change your plans at this stage - so yeah years of ideas and stuff can be tossed out on a whim basically if you have a fresh new idea that you want to pursue

[dim reef]

They also said they had already started working on the music beforehand so what about that. Did they change that too

Were they composing music at random or something

[livid ingot]

Music isn't so reliant on the setting.

[feral viper]

I mean, given TES... They were just remixing the same music they've been using for 20 years anyway.

[livid ingot]

A lot of Skyrim's tracks don't necessarily scream Skyrim and could be used in other provinces

[dim reef]

True but i assume it must play a decent part at the very least if past games are a sign. FO4 having bagpipes, accordions and what not because it's Boston, 76 having electric guitars and woodwinds because it's Appalachia

Even Skyrim's music as per interviews were heavily based on the whole nordic theme

Heavy drums, sweeping choirs, French horns

[feral viper]

And I'd say the game is weaker for it.

But I don't think TES has a musical identity anyway.

[dim reef]

I'd have to disagree on this. Skyrim and Morrowind have a clear distinct identity to their music

Oblivion... has good music but admittedly it's the most normal fantasy music sounding

Still. The location clearly plays a part in atleast a decent chunk of their music

[pulsar root]

Soule's music is hit and miss for me. Some themes are iconic but I don't favor them nearly as highly as others.

[dim reef]

Could be they changed their mind halfway through and have started composing anew

[feral viper]

Soule's best work, IMO, was Total Annihilation...

[livid ingot]

They might edit the music as they go. Start out planning more generically, then as game development progresses, edit the extant tracks to more closely fit the design choices.

[dim reef]

Hm. True. That could be it

[livid ingot]

only Godd Howard knows

[dim reef]

Iirc FO4 started the same way. Initially they just told Inon to make the theme based on a personal story without much thought for setting

[feral viper]

Now, IF we consider Hammerfell the next location, it does need a distinct musical identity.

Elsweyr as well.

The other provinces less so.

Well, Valenwood.... It's sound track would just be a constant wet fart.

[livid ingot]

I'd expect Valenwood to use a lot of woodwinds

so you're not far off with your "wood" "winds"

[dim reef]

Valenwood's music should be a lot like Fallout 76 I'd say

[feral viper]

We can safely assume that Hammerfell would have a lot of near-eastern themes to it's music.

[dim reef]

Like Prince of Persia?

[feral viper]

Probably

I think it's low hanging fruit, but it's what I expect.

[livid ingot]

Wait they do a 180 and make it all Japanese-themed music

[feral viper]

That's what I'd WANT

But I don't expect it.

[pulsar root]

hmm....

[feral viper]

But, ive said many times, I don't like the one dimensional influences we see in Oblivion and Skyrim.

I want independent cultures built from multiple influence, so you can't instantly tell what trope you're looking at with a glance.

It's been made evident that Bethesda doesn't want that, though, so that's neither here nor there...

One thing Kuhlmann's statements raise questions about, though, is Howard's claim last year that they already had a playable slice of the game, and that it was 'fun'.

Like, a year and a half to go from starting concept work, to a mechanically playable build? That's incredibly suspicious to me.

Unless you're going for very generic gameplay disconnected from the world.

[pulsar root]

Production in 2023. So 2-3

[feral viper]

The statement was early to mid last year. So production in late 2023, to the statement in mid 2025.

About a year and a half.

Not impossible, but it would be unusually quick for Bethesda.

Especially if we consider potential work on the Engine in between games.

[noble verge]

Nah, it's gonna be hip-hop music like AC Shadows.

[livid ingot]

Like Afro Samurai you mean

Or we talkin' Samurai Champloo

I could do a hip-hop TES.

[feral viper]

I think Hip-hop is one of the lowest forms of music. Right down there with Jaz, Folk and Skat. But still better than Country, so I could tolerate it.

[dim reef]

Hip Hop is nice when it's mixed with other elements. I quite like the Sunflower song from Spiderman ITSV

[pulsar root]

Don't like any form of hip hop(If we're still talking music that is)

[livid ingot]

Hip-hop is great. I think there's a decent chance a hip-hop "Shakespeare" or "Emily Dickenson" is alive right now whose legacy will only be appreciated posthumously.
Now whether or not a fantasy setting could pull of such a soundtrack is another question entirely. It would suffer a lot of the same hurdles a, say, metal or electronic soundtrack would given it's very modern connotations.

But luckily for hip-hop, given the emphasis on the voice and rhythm it isn't really wed to a certain sound

So I think, with the right choice of instruments, you could have a very medieval-sounding track that would fit the setting

[feral viper]

I think, for the most part, you can make any genre of music fit, it's just a matter of how you blend it with the action and setting.

[feral viper]

Many genre's reliance on lyrics does become a bit of a problem, however.

[livid ingot]

Yeah you wouldn't want lyrics in background music

[feral viper]

Some vague hymnals or chanting, maybe. But no clear vocals.

[livid ingot]

Found this and thought you guys might like https://youtu.be/qb0v4-jkEcY

[feral viper]

See, that's something I could get behind.

[glossy egret]

Kurt Kuhlmann's interview has me really nervous for ES6. Anyone else see it?

[pulsar root]

There's nothing to worry about. We don't even have any footage of ES6. Can't really judge if no gameplay is even shown. Kuhhlman wanting ES6 to be Empire Strikes is just really dumb

[glossy egret]

Considering how bad of a game Starfield was I feel like there is definitely something to worry about. Wanting the game to be darker with the the Thalmor trying to take power sounded like a really interesting idea.

Getting a look inside the company from his perspective and them telling us how fractured and chaotic is also seems like it should make people worry.

[eager remnant]

I think Starfield is a terrific game. So I am not worried at all.

[pulsar root]

You're ignoring the point of WHY Starfield had a lukewarm reception. Financially it still succeeded. The spreading out of the Pois you normally see in a Bethesda game meant the proceedural generation had to increase massively thus a lot of repetitive locations(Like the cryo labs for example). Same look of the location same audio tape over and over.

That kind of thing is really detrimental to the Bethesda formula. And a lot of the planets are for the most part empty. Even in Skyrim eventually you will run into a unique location with its own "story" and all of them are set in one World Space then multiple ones that are stretched on 1000 planets.

Thats the bigger problem they faced and if you played the game you would notice that. Secondly even with the lukewarm reception even Bethesda still responded to feetback(The Vehicle that was literally for free in an update). So they aren't stupid, they obviously know about people feel about Starfield.

About the communication issues. Its obvious Todd stretched himself thin since he kept getting asked to do stuff on protects that is if Kuhhlman is being truthful. I would tell Todd to focus on Bethesda stuff then trying to do literally everything(I know he was executive producer on the Indiana Jones game and from what I hear that was good).

As for the Thalmor. Honestly I don't want the Thalmor to win literally AGAIN(They benefited A LOT from the Great War and then the white gold concordat). Being dark for the sake of being dark is not interesting, its lazy. Oh I forgot, Starfield even didn't have a voiced protaganist anymore so clearly they learn from their mistakes.

Sorry mods for long post.

[glossy egret]

No one is saying be dark for the sake of being dark. He talked about shaking up how you're a hero to the story.

Procedural generation can be fine depending on how it's used. I would argue Bethesda hadn't been doing a good job with it as of recently.

Bethesda is notorious for being bad at communications. Look at how they've handled breaking fallout 4. They get defensive when people bring up criticisms of starfield.

The fact that they lost another person who worked on Bethesdas earlier (and I would argue best) games makes me nervous the direction the company is moving in. That's mostly what I'm talking about.

I know what Bethesda is capable of so hearing so many tenured ex employees come out and talk about what I see as major issues in the studio makes me nervous.

[pulsar root]

Not everyone is going to stay at Bethesda forever, so old guard people leaving isn't some scary thing. Sometimes new people is needed. Fallout 4 breaking is more about the update broke things not the communication. You can't attribute bad communication to something that was mostly about bad technical quality(And people's mods breaking cause the game was updated). One last I rather Bethesda only say something if there is something important to announce.

Best games is really subjective because I've come across plenty of people who sometimes aren't favorable to Oblivion, cause both games have flaws. Oblivion had its level scaling being really not good at all. Skyrim I already pointed out earlier but how Magic spells are equipped is very tedious.

That aside I still am not going to agree with Kuhllman that the Thalmor should literally win again, they've been winning since the Great War(Civil War only benefited the Thalmor). Yeah he's a big writer from Bethesda but that doesn't make him immune to criticism.

I just don't believe doom and gloom is necessary regarding ES6.

Edit: From experience I've seen former old guard of a dev studio leave and well its not always bad.

[feral viper]

If anything, i think the loss of the Old Guard is for the best.

While I think Kuhlmann's comments are enlightening, I still think his involvement would have been for the worse, based on TES more broadly.

He may have contributed to Morrowind, but those days are gone. And everything since then has shown that whatever spark was struck by Morrowind has long since died.

Time for the old guard to step aside, and let new creative minds take the reins. Because under the old guard, TES has gone from a brilliant and unique flash in the pan, to one of the blandest and most generic fantasy settings out there.

If anything, I think there's more name status should step back from development. But I won't name them here.

I think the bigger takeaway is the poor communication between studios working on a project, the disjointed decision making, and the lack of clear long-term planning that is indicated in the interview.

[dim reef]

Imma be honest. Kurt and Bruce were the leads on Skyrim's main quest iirc and Skyrim's mq is by far the game's weakest aspect.

I'm not too saddened by Kurt not being the lead again

Tho i do find it sad a lot of his ideas he talked about never came to fruition and Bethesda definitely needs to handle their management/planning side of things better

[livid ingot]

If you haven't had the chance to play No Man's Sky, you definitely should to form a point of comparison at the very least. I played it for the first time a couple weeks ago and boy it's a stark contrast imo.

[livid ingot]

The guild quests are definitively worse. Skyrim's main quest is not spectacular but it has it's moments - the Greybeards calling you to High Hrothgar, the capture of Odahviing, going to Sovngarde... it definitely aimed high.

[dim reef]

Nah the guild quests vary. Thieves Guild and Companions are great. College is a bit rushed. DB is phenomenal

Bards college is the only lackluster one

The main quest's core writing is good but the actual quest design, pacing, build up is all off

[junior kettle]

No man's sky is one of the most dull space games I've played where things just happen and the entire main story is a bad "reality is a dying simulation" story where all you do is grind resources. NMS plays fine sure but unlike Starfield there's nothing to it's world design or writing. It's a waste time game.

So no the existence of NMS compared to an RPG like Starfield is not a hit against Starfield lol also NMS planets have the same issue as starfield of relatively being boring to explore but at least starfield has actual writing and commentary around its universe to make it feel alive so I'm also not worried about TES6 because people over hype NMS

Even being able to talk to NPCs in that game is a grind that doesn't pay off because the writing is so incredibly dull and uninspired

[dim reef]

No Man's Sky and Starfield are completely different things. One's minecraft in space and the other's an action rpg

[junior kettle]

Starfield also actually has thought put into it's world design where we see production centers and manufacturing, pirates exist because of the lack of manpower the two main factions have after a disastrous war, outposts are being set up by corporations that are using the post-war state to gain more power in the setting while not caring if people get hurt by being underprotected. NMS pirates and trade fleets just happen because it's space, that's things that happen in space! No more thinking.

Why are there massive space stations? SPACE!!!!!!

[dim reef]

It's supposed to be like that because it's a sandbox survival game ala Minecraft

[junior kettle]

That's not an excuse lol

[dim reef]

It is. That's how procedural survival games work

[junior kettle]

If you make them bad sure

[dim reef]

That's how they work. It's always been that way. You find them bad because they're not your thing

The whole appeal behind them is they're essentially one big sandbox.

[junior kettle]

The difference becomes when you add writing

NMS has writing that at first tries to make sense of why things are like this but completely falls on it's face

[dim reef]

Yeah because no one cares about writing in games like that. It's just some basic background lore.

They're simply different and have no comparison to the type of games Bethesda makes

[junior kettle]

Which is kind of the other problem of NMS's worlds aren't interesting

So idunno why people keep feeling the need to bring it up whenever Starfield is brought up, like chill, the space game you're overhyping is not as great as other space games nor really comparable

[vagrant aurora]

Do you guys think having bicycles in TES6 would be fun?

[astral hollow]

What would the bikes look like?

[junior kettle]

They should bring back airships

[vagrant aurora]

They may be may from dwemer technology or just made from simple metal/wood.

[junior kettle]

Honestly the idea that every technological advancement comes from the dwemer is so dull

[feral viper]

Yeah... A chronic problem with Skyrim is that none of the stories are given any room to breathe. The pacing is absolutely terrible.

[feral viper]

It's dumb, and it's lazy writing.

Like, imagine if every technological advancement in the real world came from Germany

[dim reef]

I am genuinely amazed anyone in the design team thought making us kill a dragon in the literal 3rd main quest was a good idea

[junior kettle]

Oblivion starts with us killing a dozen cultists and then saving an entire city from a daedric horde lol

[dim reef]

Oblivion has the same issue

[junior kettle]

By comparison fighting a dragon is tame

[feral viper]

Look, if I mentioned the number of things in Bethesda games that I'm surprised ever made it out of the ideas stage, the Mods would lock me in a box and throw away the key.

[dim reef]

Morrowind is the only one that got it right. It takes a decent amount of time before you get the corprus disease and even more before you actually cure it

There's actual build up to the whole thing

[feral viper]

It's not JUST a Bethesda problem of course. Every studio does it at some point. Bethesda is just particular prone to it.

[junior kettle]

That's also the first time you actually fight a sixth house cult base

[feral viper]

Followed by Blizzard.

[dim reef]

Yeah they made the same mistake 3 TIMES in a row (Fallout 4 with killing a deathclaw in the 2nd quest)

Once i get. Twice still fine. But 3 damn times

[feral viper]

Once is a fluke. Twice is coincidence. Three times is a pattern

[junior kettle]

The deathclaw was whatever imo

[feral viper]

But, given my disdain for Oblivion, and the ongoing repeated issues with things since...

I'm not heartbroken over the old guard leaving.

Sometimes you need fresh perspectives to breathe life back into something.

[astral hollow]

What are some positive aspects of Skyrim, what would you say to younger teen fans....Who want to play Skyrim?

[feral viper]

Though, Kuhlmann's comments about his intended story, and the Thamor, did remind me of another interview I read recently...

One of the writers for New Vegas who was responsible for the Legion, was talking about creating the Legion. And how it has to walk the line between being believable and being too over the top.

And I'm like... 'My dude, you combined a moustache twirling caricature of Rome, with freaking 1930s Germany. You went full over the top.'

[feral viper]

Mechanically, I think Skyrim is the best game Bethesda has ever made.

It's potential isn't fully realised, sure, but as a foundation for an RPG, it's phenomenal.

And ultimately that's the reason I'm still here. Because of the potential Skyrim holds for RPGs, especially first person RPGS.

Perfection doesn't exist. You can only really look at how to progress.

And Skyrim is, I think, the best way forward for RPGs. Its systems and mechanics need work, sure. That's what progress is about, everything ALWAYS needs work.

But working from the best basis is the best way forward.

It'd also a decently made worldspace with lots of locations, both marked and unmarked, to find and explore.

I think Skyrim's greatest strength, and biggest weakness, is its potential.

It could have soared so much higher than anything else, but for various reasons did not. But that potential at the same time can make it feel lackluster, compared to game which realise more of their potential.

Oblivion, for instance, is about as good as it could be. There are actually very few things you could change, to legitimately push Oblivion's potential further.

But if you can go in with the understanding that Skyrim can be so much more, and STILL manages to feel good on its own despite falling so short of its potential, it's a fantastic game.

Does all of that sound a bit like a backhanded complement?

I mean, yeah. It kinda is. But that's Bethesda in a nutshell. They never stick the landing.

This isn't Tony Hawk's Pro Skater though.

The points you get in the air still count, even if you faceplant at the last second.

And I think the biggest positive I can say, both about Skyrim and Bethesda more broadly...

Despite all my complaints, I STILL play their games frequently. With the notable exception of Oblivion, I have gone back and replayed every game Bethesda has released this millennium, within the last 12 months..

[timid drum]

Holy crap, Terical praising a Bethesda game. Its gonna be a great day

[eager remnant]

I agree with this.

[feral viper]

New year, new Terical.

I think I got most of my negativity out over the new Eldar Vyper. So I'm feeling generous

[noble verge]

I think it's because TES III wasn't banking on a "hook" front and center like TES IV's Oblivion delving or TES V's dragon fights.

I'll admit I don't remember Morrowind's advertising outside of a short Game Informer article about Bloodmoon, but I'm pretty sure the crux of the advertising wasn't "you'll gain immunity to disease and be able to fight divine cancer monsters with no fear".

[feral viper]

Now that I think of it... I don't remember any Morrowind ads in magazines.

I only knew about it because I was already a Daggerfall fan, and learned through the local game store.

[noble verge]

I seem to recall Starfield did something similar to Morrowind in that it hid the actual premise and a core mechanic until you're several quests in.

[feral viper]

The Starborn powers don't even really come on line like... Ever.

But you're half way through the story before you even get them.

[astral hollow]

Its very interesting there is a house in Oblivion that looks like it has been raided by bandits.

[vagrant aurora]

I whole heartedly agree. But when I post in other communities and people act like they dont know how anything new could fit in the lore without the dwemer, its annoying. So, my apologies for just throwing that in there lol.

[pulsar root]

I don't think there's a lot of people asking for the dwemer to return. Interesting and tempting as that is. I just think using their ruins as a dungeon to explore in nearly(Almost) every TES, adds to the game then it takes away.

[junior kettle]

Dwemer can't return, we learn that in Morrowind

[vagrant aurora]

I meant to say without using dwemer technology

[noble verge]

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure Sotha Sil and his Clockwork City surpassed the Dwemer.

Or at least mostly. When counting for stuff like Kagrenac's Tools and Numidium.

[tardy tiger]

It gets silly because they retconned the Numidium into being a Dwemer creation instead of the Underkings creation.

They just shifted it to the dwemer.

Though TES just isn't good with tech levels if one sees the continuing mess that is the mistake known as the Imperials. Which had Battlespire and Redguard (the Navy ships) which will never be seen again.

[noble verge]

For what it's worth, the Imperials are still evidently able to bombard an island stronghold to rubble with a single merchant ship.

[dim reef]

They should develop nukes

[pulsar root]

⛔

[tardy tiger]

The disease itself is limited to two places if I recall. One is if you kill and then loot a diseased person involved in a temple quest (which breaks too many things) and then a scripted event from the main quest.
You can attack six house bases whenever you like.

Also pretty sure in TES3 once you get the disease from the main quest quest you finish it and then go immediately on the quest to cure it. The longest part of that is just getting to Tel Fyr since they're not connected to any travel system.

[dim reef]

Yeah but you don't immediately go to cure it. First you gotta go back to Skooma dad and get some lore dump then you gotta do Fyr's quest and then you get to cure it.

[tardy tiger]

Fyr's "quest" is apart of the same quest to cure it and is all within the same building. You just pick up some boots from his basement really.

From memory you get infected at the end of the quest, turn it into Blades dude and then he sends you to do the cure quest which is get to Fyr's remote castle do one task which is run to Dwemer in his basement and back and then take his potion that'll totally "cure" it (he's not trying to cure it and is instead just removing the bad parts).

[dim reef]

It's part of the same overall quest but like it's really long with 2 separate tasks.
It gives the gravity of the situation more time before it's dealt with.
Also Yagram isn't just in the basement. It's practically another dungeon and you're warned against killing the other patients even when they're trying to kill you

[tardy tiger]

Running though his basement and tower doesn't take long. All it says is don't bother with combat and just run away from them.

[dim reef]

Which is easier said that done especially if you don't have a lot of stamina

I hated that part on my first run

[tardy tiger]

Level design doesn't help it. I've just pulled it up in open mw (so I get remove all mods with whatever profile thing they've got and because the overhead maps arn't helpful when things overlap map wise)

The First area is just run though first gate to the first load door and that's it as the second area is not hostile and then it's just the next left to him.
https://images.uesp.net/a/a8/MW-map-Tel_Fyr%2C_Corprusarium.jpg
https://images.uesp.net/e/e8/MW-map-Tel_Fyr%2C_Corprusarium_Bowels.jpg

[dim reef]

Why is it even designed like that. Couldn't Fyr have just made a normal asylum or something

Like just a big square box with segmented areas

[tardy tiger]

Looking at the maps and that task to get the drum to pacify them is kinda pointless unless you plan on returning since the second area isn't hostile.

[feral viper]

Fyr isn't that bright a guy, at the end of the day.

He just repurposed the tunnels under his mushroom house to store highly infectious monsters. He didn't so much care about efficiency or safety.

[junior kettle]

Got some bad news with what ESO said the CWC's technology is based off

It made a lot of people unhappy

Fyr is one of the most intelligent wizards in Tamriel and is old enough to remember when dunmer were chimer

[feral viper]

Fyr is intelligent like Mr. House is intelligent.

We're TOLD he is, but when oh evaluate his actions it's clear that you have a conflict between Lore, and Writing.

He's powerful though. So there comes a point where power and intelligence are mistaken for the same thing.

[noble verge]

A disregard for safety is pretty standard for Telvanni.

Of course unless the Corprus monsters suddenly learn to fly they're no threat to Fyr.

[wide garnet]

I’ve actually included that into my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

When the Fifth Blight “spilled over” into the Vvardenfell Crisis, House Telvanni attempted to learn more about the Darkspawn, and their lack of safety protocols caused the “Kill the House Telvanni Councilors” mission to change to the “Sanitize the Blighted Outbreak”. Also, afterwards, Master Neloth challenged the demon-possessed Uldred to a mages’ duel (during the “Broken Circle” questline) and bested him due to him being a “Master Wizard of House Telvanni”.

I’m also considering an outbreak of Red Lyrium-induced Madness amongst Telvanni, but I don’t know if that would work.

[wide garnet]

I’ve also got that, due to the inherent magic of Skyhold, Corprus victims are, quite literally, shedding their afflictions, causing them to become young, hot, muscular beauties (and causing several Thedas mages to pass out with severe nasal hemorrhages, because I find the idea hilarious).

[primal olive]

ngl i fear for the next elder scrolls game

i worry it will target the wrong audience (the simple players who like it cool and flashy, like seeing starfield and thinking wow space and not digging deep into it)

like skyrim for example, it lacks that nerdy draw morrowind has for me

sure, it has the lore, it has the noble overused swords, and the simplified nords even with their well made complexities

[dim reef]

Imma be real. I read a bunch about the old nordic pantheon and found them quite boring anyway. I don't mind the change to the imp pantheon.

The only thing i disliked was how literally no one apart from Ulfric is trained in atleast one or two words of the thuum

[primal olive]

i wish they werent so pro everything about nords

[dim reef]

Pro everything?

[primal olive]

like make them flawed! their ancestors and they commit mass murder! highlight it more

also i want their germanic influence highlighted much better

also i want spears back

you'd think the race that touts themselves as simple and stubborn would use spears in gamd

[dim reef]

They are flawed. The game never shies away from everything their forefathers did.
Even in recent memory the Markarth incident is still rightfully villified.

Same goes for the falmer. What the nords and dwemer did to them is presented very clearly both in base game and the dawnguard dlc

They even made the races more unique looking because in Todd's own words. The culture of skyrim is more speciest

can't say the other word so take speciest instead

[primal olive]

"very clearly" and its interpeted by msot as falmer did saarthal elves are bad <\3

[primal olive]

true though it's just not really shown enough

though honestly it's funny that race doesn't matter to them if you befriend them

[dim reef]

What? They did do saarthal. But that doesn't justify what the nords did that later indirectly resulted in the falmer we see now.
Both sides did goofy things

And they're both presented equally as much

[primal olive]

even ysgramor ends up respecting elves which is funny
also i didnt deny that what 😭
i was mocking the weird mindset some fans have

[dim reef]

Oh well yeah fans can be stupid but that ain't the game's fault

[primal olive]

I've had people even here try to excuse the massacre of their society with saarthal which is like
two things can be bad 😭

[dim reef]

Like some believe because Alduin's boss fight was lackluster it was actually some 4D chess level move by the devs to imply he was faking it

[primal olive]

some things are just conviences and gameplay mechanics at time frfr

[dim reef]

Ye. They just made a terrible boss fight. Not much else to it

[primal olive]

yup Bethesda's never really been good at boss fights which is fine
Vythur was a good attempt though tbh

[dim reef]

Nah i think Miraak was really good

[primal olive]

true that too

Harkon is a joke and i wish the dlc was more falmer focused though

[dim reef]

It's a shame i rarely see Vyrthur's boss fight because half the time i yeet him off the balcony XD

Serves him right for choosing an arena like that

[primal olive]

i just instakill him and take his armor, my snow elf will use them better

[gloomy kraken]

The volkihar molag bal statue is so hot 😍🥰

[primal olive]

eh

it looks cool but its molag bal

[dim reef]

She likes Molag Bal

a LOT

[gloomy kraken]

🥰

[primal olive]

valid

[gloomy kraken]

And mannimarco

[primal olive]

we should've been able to help the reachmen with markarth more tbh

[primal olive]

I've killed him thrice my bad

[gloomy kraken]

🥀🥀🥀

[dim reef]

I wish you could nuke the reach entirely

[primal olive]

i wish you could nuke windhelm entirely

[dim reef]

That place ain't salvageable anymore. Tear it down

[gloomy kraken]

I like the reach

[primal olive]

the reach has reachmen! and cool celtic vibes
and dead nords

[gloomy kraken]

I like dead nords

[primal olive]

i like the speciest ones being sent to coldharbour but the kind ones deserve to live peacefully

[noble verge]

I wish there was an option to help Madanach retake it. Not that it'd necessarily end up being the best option considering the Forsworn's darker elements, but it would've been a cool third option compared to the Imperials and Stormcloaks.

[primal olive]

also a nice middle finger to the efforts of ulfric

[dim reef]

Maybe. I'd still say destroy the place entirely.

[primal olive]

"you removed these people from their home like your ancestors from the shores of atmora had, your efforts will be denied and your head shall soon be severed" or something :3€

[noble verge]

I think that they should've also treated violently resisting arrest in The Forsworn Conspiracy as a viable third option, where after you slaughter the Markarth Guards that try to stop you, leave the Hold for a while and come back, you'd find Markarth occupied by Forsworn, with Madanach sitting on the throne, gleefully explaining that your refusal to be arrested resulted in Markarth losing so many of its defenders that the Forsworn were finally able to retake it by force.

(For what it's worth, the Nords technically occupied Markarth before the Reachmen, albeit only briefly before the Dwemer recovered and kicked them out)

[primal olive]

i agree

[junior kettle]

I think they should make it that Skyrim loses the Reach in TES6 and the empire just finally recognizes it as a kingdom independent of Skyrim if they agree to be part of the empire due to not wanting to deal with more unnecessary armed conflicts

[feral viper]

I mean, that seems to have been the plan originally.

Then the disposed Jarl of Markarth, using his formal Imperial Authority, acted first in requesting aid, resulting in the Stormcloaks forming and mustering a force to retake the city.

The problem with medieval communications and large scale geopolitics

[pulsar root]

No I think Markarth should stay with the province, not capitulate to the forsworn. I also say being stuck in Cidna mine shouldn't of happened.

[nimble pond]

I'd rather see the Orcs expand with Orsinium, conquering territory in that area to develop their own province. Parts of High Rock, Hammerfell, Skyrim, & Cyrodiil, all in that general area of Orsinium.

[livid ingot]

Technically this shouldn't be the case for Tamriel. They've got teleportation technology, literally faster than light communication.

But magic has rarely been seriously considered seriously for world-building purposes

[bitter wagon]

anyone tried skyrim vr before?

[nimble pond]

Another note, at some point would like to see an underground rail system network connecting all of Tamriel, including Summerset Isles.

I think the Dwemer had some sort of thing like that or hints at it, or I'm confusing it with a mod.

[livid ingot]

You're confusing it with a mod! Oblivion had this mod, an underground dwemer rail system

That was a fun one 😁 Oblivion really lacked immersive travel options.

[nimble pond]

Well a genius mod idea for sure 🙂

[pulsar root]

Nah not already established parts. Though an Orcish province really should of been thought of when BGS did all their world building.

Cause Orcs deserving their own land is kinda fair but Tamriel is......crowded and I don't think Bethesda can go "Well this land was always there" Not without social media burning them at the stake

[junior kettle]

Nah markarth should be taken back by the reachmen and become an independent power

They wouldn't create a slave caste that's entirely forced to mine for a rich nord family

They should break up the map now that it's not centered around imperial administrative districts

Like why is Jehenna, Farrun and Dragonstar not depicted as part of Skyrim? Makes no sense

[nimble pond]

I wouldn't mind shifting territories over the course of time. It's been typical throughout the history of Nirn with it's various inhabitants.
I also think it would be cool at some point to introduce some artificially-created landmasses surrounding Tamriel using magic or newly discovered tool.

[junior kettle]

There are already landmasses around Tamriel

Pyandonea, Yokuda, Akavir, the various islands in-between Tamriel and Akavir that the empire did conquer, Atmora

Not Aldmeris, that one is not a real landmass

The issue is these aren't depicted on the map

Like Roscrea which is under the rule of Solitude or the cathnoquey islands

[nimble pond]

Akavir, I think might be kinda far away? Yokuda is sunk, but would make for interesting underwater exploration.

[junior kettle]

Roscrea and the Cathnoquey archipelago were under the empire for instance

[pulsar root]

Yes but I think specific ummm nationalities having specific territories consistently isn't a bad thing. its more of what changes over the years. Red Mountain...might not be the best idea though I think the idea of a dungeon inside a volcano is..."cool"

[dim reef]

Teleportation needs an end point tbf. Someone's gotta stay at both ends and keep the thing open

[junior kettle]

Yokuda is depicted as having remnant lands in Redguard and Oblivion has a NPC mention that there are boats that come from Yokuda to Anvil

[dim reef]

You can just as easily kill whoever is doing the teleportation on one end and cut off that route

[nimble pond]

There are various islands, mostly on the west though. But they are naturally-formed. I'd like to just sprinkle a bit more closer to the continent of Tamriel and having them artificially-made could allow for some very beautiful and interesting biomes and nature.

[junior kettle]

Nah we have a ton of lands around Tamriel, again the issue is they aren't depicted on maps for absolutely no reason

[nimble pond]

Some maps do have them, you just gotta dig around search for them.

[junior kettle]

There's no reason to just artificially create new lands when there's already tons of island chains we've yet to see

[nimble pond]

Not the developers, I meant the different races in Tamriel. They could have whatever reasoning they want, military, economy, private, any a list of other reasons.

[pulsar root]

new land means more land to occupy/utilize for resources and new places to colonize(As in make new towns. The Empire could want it(but I think they're focused on recovering). Thalmor I'm not sure. It would be sort of(At least in ES) a new frontier to take advantage of

[junior kettle]

No lol we don't need whacky zany wizard islands when we have a ton of already existing places

[nimble pond]

I think so. Could start out slow, but eventually much of Nirn could be littered with beautiful places. Kinda like painting your own world. It's already pretty, but could be even more.
Anyway, I am kinda bored by the fact that everything takes place in "Tamriel," but it was all crammed together.

I probably should of said I wasn't just thinking islands, but also colossal continents even as large as Tamriel.

[junior kettle]

Or they could focus on the lands that exist and populate the seas around Tamriel instead of "why is this new land here? Wizards made it"

[nimble pond]

Could also do a little of both. Although, it seems we spend most time on the mainland unfortunately. Akavir seeming like a place we'll never get to step foot on.

But speaking of colonization and new frontiers..
It'd be cool if at some point in the in timeline, mass colonization takes place across all the continents of Nirn. Like how we spread from Europe. Bring back the life to these abandoned continents like they were in the Dawn era.

Battuta, Polo, Columbus.. TES the ultimate world explorer edition.

I've been told they all used to be connected as one giant landmass and full of life and activity. Kinda disappointed we missed out on seeing that.

[pulsar root]

Todd seems to want a number of mysteries in TES(Dwemer,Akavir and whatever else he has in his head). I don't entirely blame him. But at some point, we'll have to move beyond Tamriel.

[nimble pond]

I think some mystery is great, but not too much. Then it's just teasing.

And after all these years, I'm just a little tired of hearing the name "Tamriel," lol. 😅
And well.. even if they're not like "in-depth" games, we've already had the setting be all Tamriel in Arena, and then again in ESO. Please.. no more.. 😅 The multiple editions of Skyrim was a bit much too. I think I actually hate snow at this point.

Off the subject a bit, but like I really liked what they did with TWD: Daryl Dixon spinoff, taking the setting out the USA and exploring the universe in a fresh setting outside of the USA.

[junior kettle]

Cathnoquey would be cool because it has flotillas of chimer that didn't turn into dunmer and a group of people based on Hawaiians

Hawaiians are rarely represented in fantasy

[nimble pond]

But I think it's also left me with this sense of boredom because the last two mainline TES games (Skyrim & Oblivion), the world & atmosphere is just too much.. human? Too much like the real world I already live in. I appreciated the world & atmosphere of Morrowind more.. leaning more towards that sense of fantasy in the game world around you. That I miss alot.

[junior kettle]

TES6 should involve the Maormer opening their borders in a shared pact between Hammerfell and the Empire and include Maormer NPCs as well as playable Maormer

[feral viper]

Humans are hella lame.

Like, I have to deal with humans every single day. The last thing I want is to have to deal with them in my fantasy escapism.

I'm already a misanthrope, I don't need to be reminded of that.

[pulsar root]

Oblivion is held back by technology.

derp

[feral viper]

And art direction, and narrative, and general design...

[dim reef]

Oblivion is the only game that felt too generic to me atmosphere wise. Skyrim is just as mesmerizing as Morrowind

Same goes for ESO. In general they moved away from the idea of making traditional European fantasy and I'm grateful for that

I hope they keep it that way. Oblivion is... fine as it is. But we don't need another game like it.

There's already bucket loads of medieval games doing european fantasy. Let TES stay unique

[feral viper]

Well, for the most part anyway Glares at Summerset and Highrock

[pulsar root]

Skyrim is not mesmerizing. Increased fidelity sure but not mesmerizing.

[feral viper]

Subjectivity plays a role there.

I definitely agree, and find Skyrim decent but not mesmerizing, but I can understand how some view it differently.

[dim reef]

Summerset ye. High rock wasn't that bad

Elsewhere is definitely the best they did

Captured their unique culture remarkably well

[feral viper]

Elsweyr is definitely at the top. Valenwood fell so hard to the bottom it left a crater.

My beef with Highrock is mostly in its loss of the Arthurian, Celtic and pre-Carolingian elements and doubling down on the big standard Medieval tropes.

And I hate the Druids of Galen. People need to stop butchering Druids in their fiction.

Every time someone writes Druids as their nature worshiping hippies and their tree spirits, it's like the slaughter of Anglesey all over again.

[dim reef]

I'd say witcher 3 did druids relatively well

But i wish we saw more of them. They're not given enough screentime to really shine

[junior kettle]

No one likes to write bretons

Unless they're reachmen no one wants to write for them

[feral viper]

Nah, because no one wants to do anything interesting with them

Though I think that problem comes from higher up

[tardy tiger]

No one likes to write the Nedic groups of Tarmriel. That's why Bretons and Imperials are a mess.

[tardy tiger]

Summerset is weird because the marble can work.. Just not with the damn antiquity filter. It's something the Imperial City and ESO Summerset suffers from because people don't leave bare marble walls.

[feral viper]

Yeah...

Summerset suffers because they refused to commit

It's not ostentatious enough to be artistically inspiring, or sterile enough to be strange.

Suramar was 2 years before Summerset, and the difference is staggering.

You don't need walls made of dragonfly wings. But it should at least try to inspire poetry.

[junior kettle]

Honestly I've been thinking and I think something that hurts Bethesda's creativity is the focus on a whole province instead of a specific reason. Like Vvardenfell they had more to work with because it wasn't the entire province but skyrim and oblivion were on a bigger scale and shows some of the problems especially with lack of farmland in Oblivion and the generic holds in Skyrim.

They should focus on a region or even just focus solely on one city for a game, just make a city and a main area around it with expansions that add more regions to the world.

For instance instead of becoming an arch-mage or grandmaster of a guild for a province just have your character becomes a guild steward or being able to establish your own gang in the slums of the city as the thief/assassin guild, add in joinable factions that are unique to that specific city

They should go with the less is more mentality

[livid ingot]

Something fans have discussed for years is making the Imperial City an entire game, at the scale of provinces from prior games

[junior kettle]

Yea we've already been there, make it somewhere like Senchal in Elsewyr or take the oppurtunity to show off one of the cities in mainland Morrowind like Narsis, Tear, Port Telvannis. One of the city states of Hammerfell or Dragonstar would be perfect for it

Orsinium would also be a good city to do it around or one of the border kingdoms of High Rock between Skyrim and Hammerfell

[livid ingot]

Well at that increase in scale, any city we've already experienced would basically be unrecognizable.
But yeah, I think it's a cool idea for a game. I think a fair number of people though would disagree with the loss of wilderness areas, different towns, etc

[junior kettle]

Ok Oblivion was terrible with that is the thing though lol

[livid ingot]

Senchal would be dope

[junior kettle]

And Skyrim did a better job but at the same time seeing the same looking shack constantly gets dull

Like Falkreath being this major hold in lore and then it's the same shack looking town as Morthal and Dawnstar

And you can still have wilderness and different towns if it's region focused, look at Morrowind where we had several distinct architecture based on factions compared to Skyrim or Oblivion where that distinct architecture is just nowhere else to be found

[pulsar root]

Yeah I think any game focused on one city would be a big departure and a risk. I think the Imperial City based one would be interesting but....

its certainly...well tempting.

TLDR: Sounds cool but I think right now they need to stick to what they've been doing(Starfield not withstanding)

[worldly cypress]

The first two games and ESO didn't follow the only one province only rule and they're alright. I think a game set in say the Kingdom of Daggerfall could be good. Or Orsinium because it's not really a whole province.

The reach potentially.

[junior kettle]

Arena was barely much of anything besides a kill the evil wizard and save the world game, Daggerfall was all procedural generated and largely kinda dull outside of it's main story, ESO's regions are pretty small even by MMO standards

[worldly cypress]

My personal like for daggerfall aside and ESO's early troubles likewise, they were each successful in their time.

[inner dune]

I disagree with your take daggerfall was largely kinda dull outside of the main story. there are many guilds to work in and regions to visit and do work at. also you have the non guild factions like commoners and inn keepers and merchants and prostitutes and children and others you can get jobs off in various locations randomly and gain rep and thats a whole thing in itself and on top of it regions also have many hidden things in towns and locations including witch covens and missions for them and rank and hidden stores and npcs and those can offer missions. and you also have the various things related to the nobles one can get caught in that isnt main quest. you arent wrong but at the same time there's tons of things going on and avaiable most dont even realize. I mean the whole potion making along can be a whole game in itself same with making enchanted items. earning rank takes forever also in guilds and you have stats to meet to advance.

I guess maybe its due to covering as many nooks and crannies as possible but I just cant see daggerfall as kinda dull outside of the main story as I keep getting characters so caught up in things outside of the main by the time I get to it im level 20+. But I can get and understand how you would see the game as you do as its not always super obvious things going on. Even city gates have signs with details of things as the game simulates the world a bit and time passes and things happen thought its more flavor text stuff. same with holidays.

I also could write up a huge reply about arena being bare bones and the random wilderness generation it had and how it could be quite the fun game if a bit bare art times.
either way you arent wrong but wanted to add some of my thoughts for you to ponder on if you ever decide to go revisit either game.

[junior kettle]

The guilds were all radiant generated quests that sent you to the same under designed dungeon that could just not have an exit

[inner dune]

indeed and the solution for a long time to that was the simple enable cheats to use [ and ] to warp around just in case so one can get to it. but I get the complaint

[junior kettle]

One of the qol improvements of Daggerfall unity is literally adding an exit to dungeons

[inner dune]

I know and its a lovely fix. glad it happened. I just am sharing the solution to the lack of doors or access to things in the non unity version which I thought we were talking about.
I am quite happy with the many upgrades unity has brought and ease of mods added.
working with the OG daggerfall can be quite the experience

[gloomy kraken]

I love this channel bc I can look away for a view minutes and people have writen whole new testaments

[worldly cypress]

Thank you for speaking to something I have neither the fortitude nor the vocabulary to say.

[worldly cypress]

TES attracts essayists.

[inner dune]

I mean I could write up a huge post about the witch coven in the orsinium (whatever its called) region in the north town in the north part of town. walk up go in and boom witch coven missions and rank. bonus on getting the awesome faction rank 42 hidden mission. tons of hidden things all over. even some of the unfinished factions have npc in places and can fire off things related to them have done. plus you know the regions being different with desert and jungle and other things. owning and buying a house and ship and repeating that guard the mage quest for the mages guild just because of the sweet magic item reward one gets for it. tons of things.

the fact theres tons of things in game people dont even know or realize is gold. but eh im going to go add more mods to skyrim for a bit that moves the game closer to arena/daggerfall/morrowind in style and theme while chatting a bit

[worldly cypress]

Honestly, I just love the dungeon design and atmosphere. Additionally I really like the who dunnit element of the main story. Not having all the information feels really good in comparison to some games.

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/i-feel-personally-targeted-attacked-wow-big-mouth-netflix-gif-15432996

[pulsar root]

Can't speak to Daggerfall. I just like Bethesda more modern take on ES(Morrowind to Skyrim)

[inner dune]

I genuinely love and hate you can fail quests and dislike its not possible in later games (least oblivion and skyrim as I want to say I remember failing quests in morrowind). plus there isnt an arrow pointing directly to the item so you have to actually scope the location and spot it and grab it. fun stuff and can make it very hard to do some quests.

like bah where is this stupid mummy wrapping walk by the room its in for the 5th time

[feral viper]

I do think the modern formula is superior, though I did start with Daggerfall.

I've related my growing pains with Morrowind more than a few times on here.

[worldly cypress]

What can I say I am simple man.

[worldly cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-you-should-tracy-jordan-30rock-definitely-go-for-it-gif-21894208

[inner dune]

oh I have no problem with some of the modern mechanics. I will always appreciate early swordplay but I prefer I swing and I hit over I swing and it simulates the dodge and I miss. so that was one thing I like even if older players of the games dont always agree with it. I remember the seethe on nexus the day the swing and hit enemies mod was posted on nexus for morrowind. wooo that upset many.

[feral viper]

Daggerfall was my first standard RPG outside of the Quest for Glory games. So it was formative for me.

Took me a bit to not hate Morrowind, because of that.

[inner dune]

same with me. I started in regards to elder scrolls with arena than into daggerfall (even still have my copy of battlespire). so some of the changes in morrowind I hated at first. some grew on me and over time I went ah ok not bad. some I still go meh over.
I will also always prefer daggerfalls character creation system over any others though morrowinds wasnt bad and the character creation overhaul for skyrim se covering it and oblivions creation is quite nice to run.
but ultimately I just prefer daggerfalls system and creation of magic and other fun it had.

[feral viper]

Oh you won't find me disagreeing on character creation

Everything since has been, at best a pale shadow. If not a full on downgrade.

[inner dune]

Indeed. Each game has been a downgrade in its own ways including morrowind (regardless of upgrades it did downgrades also in things). and well at skyrim se its a bit more streamlined as its called compared to daggerfall or morrowind even. but the mod selection for skyrim LE and SE/Ae is massive (more so with converting LE to SE/AE) that one can build things very close to most wants and builds. Mine has a fairly decent amount of things related to tes arena (cities and music), daggerfall (music and items and azura as a follower and avatar thing), morrowind (music and a few locations and some items). I also am running the character creation overhaul so its more similar to morrowinds creation system and I can customize things more. Atm playing into it more by also running npc class alchemist (custom put together using the npc list on the uesp wiki and mod) and playing towards the skills it favors (lots of time gathering plants and stuff for potion making to further my character class and levels).

But side chatter aside yes to me Daggerfalls creation system for characters and magic was awesome. (tes arena's magic system was decent for being the OG). And some might disagree but I also think the daggerfall potion system isnt that bad (upgraded in morrowind to be fair) and enchanting I enjoy more in daggerfall than later games even if later games made it easier to do so.

[worldly cypress]

And obviously the magic systems peaked with Daggerfall and Morrowind

[inner dune]

indeed. those 2 systems were great and im still annoyed passwall is no longer a thing (TES Arena) as I loved that spell and what it could do. but than again I also think the random gen wilderness in arena is quite good for what it is and have spent far more time out in it than one should 🤣 and it has a lovely random gen world it puts together outside of the cities to enjoy with tons of locations and things to visit and get caught up in. (graveyards at night during a thunderstorm in the wilderness is quite a fun moment and full of atmosphere and bonus if the good creepy music is playing and fog is out).

[feral viper]

I'd actually say the magic system peaked with Skyrim.

The problem was, the system was terribly utilised in Skyrim, ending up leaving magic feeling lacklustre.

[tame matrix]

I couldn’t get into morrowind cause that was just frustratingly dumb. It only works in turn based games where they can just have a miss animation.

[inner dune]

plus majority of TES arena players dont realize that almost every building in towns is a mini pocket dungeon of sorts. So you can go to a town and break into (bash the door down also) every building in a town and inside it acts as a dungeon and spawns loot and enemies even for some (quite a few places). So one can turn arena and 1 solo town in the game into a whole game in itself about looting the buildings in town and avoiding the murder you guards for it (small hamlets have weakest guards). Burgler being best at b&e can get strong AF looting and getting away with it in towns. So thats a thing in itself.

it also has artifacts to hunt down and get along with also factions/guilds in game but not offical to interact with and get jobs for and jobs at taverns. in fact for such a bare bone game it does have a few things going on most dont know exists. again referencing the entire random gen wildering if one walks outside of the city gates and goes traveling (dungeons, forts, villages, boats one can use sorta, various non marked locations like an altar or shrine or statue and other things, and marked on mark with red dots and other things, tavern or inn on occasion and farms). wilderness packed with tons of things going on.
tbh ive been wanting to play tes Arena again just to go once again have a life out in the wilderness and robbing houses in hamlets for profits.

[tame matrix]

Actually it can work in real time combat but they need to have npcs be able to dodge attacks instead of getting hit and it doing nothing.

[inner dune]

I could handle it but I wont lie I use the I swing I hit mods now if I play morrowind as I just dont wanna sort out having to grind weapon skills to survive a mudcrab attack or something.

[pulsar root]

That sounds like an annoying mechanic.

[inner dune]

oh im level 16 in morrowind but I play this class so I cant swing a sword. oops mudcrab death scene (reload save).
and I wont lie I mostly play the npc classes like commoner and pauper and alchemist and stuff for fun.

dont get me started on the horrid hand to hand system for morrowind. modded that out with the quick.

[tame matrix]

I somehow always end up playing a spell sword in most rpgs with free classing

[inner dune]

well I run a mod that unlocks all game classes in morrowind and oblivion so when I say I play commoner I mean I literally pick the npc class and not custom make it in creation. not much difference but my brain likes to say well its the offical npc class it counts 🤣

and off I go to fist fight as a commoner against mud crabs

[feral viper]

When you CAN do anything, a lot of people tend to.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But that lack of personal self control also tends to be why many people want FORCED limitations.

[inner dune]

yeah forced is lame to me. I will cut out a mod that has forced things in it as it doesnt work for me. oh im level 72 and maxed armor and nothing can phase me oh neat this orc knocked me out from behind somehow and oh im now in some forced scenario my guy is too strong to end up in or not fight out of 🙄

[tame matrix]

Actually first elden ring playthrough i went full mage but I can never commit to pure magic or pure melee in elder scrolls

[feral viper]

I prefer building a system that encourages specialisation, rather than forcing limitation.

[inner dune]

I can commit to pure melee as playing the playable monster mod for skyrim LE/SE trained me in a way to mudcrab pinch to victory. and I just like warrior stuff.
mage is harder to stick with over pure melee but even pure melee quickly merges into a mix of warrior, thief, mage in some form or another.

[feral viper]

Skyrim started this, but it's so undertuned most people don't even know it's there.

[tame matrix]

Nah i think even with classless rpgs there needs to be a balance where the player ends up in a role instead of the player just being everything.

[feral viper]

I think it's a fine line.

If you want to put the work in to master everything? Go for it.

But it shouldn't be EASY

[tame matrix]

Cause the point of an rpg is that the gameplay experience is changed significantly by the role you choose but if you can be everything in a single playthrough then you won’t really get a different experience the next time you play unless you intentionally limit yourself.

[inner dune]

ah see this is where I dont agree. to me if I put in the time I shoul be able to be a master of all and crush everything with it.
that being said I dont want restrictions put in that go well we dont want you playing how you want and being as strong as you want so here's some forced restrictions in place to mod out. like eh cant we all just get the games with options to on and off this stuff so one can play how one wants?

ive crushed the elderscroll and fallout games and am beyond must grind it out every time. sometimes I want to play my high level characters or run a max level and accidently lost it on for (insert reason here). I love the level 75 and starting with just the camp gear from live another life and other fun one can have. But I think its also because I am beyond that must grind mindset since ive beat these games so many times over the years.

now I find it more fun to get to the good stuff and enjoy a maxed world as it is.
but I would not change this or add it to daggerfall and really only use this logic with fallout 3/nv/4 and morrowind/oblivion/skyrim. 🤷‍♂️

[feral viper]

I don't think it should be easy, no. If you want to master everything, it should require a serious commitment.

But it should be doable. If you want to spend 1000 hours on a single playthrough, just to tick every single box on one character?

Power to ya

[pulsar root]

If someone wants to be master(I don't really do that but at some point I'd be forced to do it but I'm not caring to be master)

[last dew]

What would happen if there's the last descendant of the Red Eagle and has a blood of a Nord, becomes a blood thirsty Nord, invented a very barbaric painful execution method which is nicknamed after himself as "Blood Eagle"?

[feral viper]

Not much of anything.

Not like Tamriel doesn't have horrors aplenty anyway

[last dew]

Eh. Thought it would've been a nice touch for the Nords being based on Vikings.

[junior kettle]

Vikings were mostly traders, explorers and spent their off seasons farming

More vikings farmed than did the whole "raid and pillage, blood and glory" stuff people see in media made by people who don't understand vikings

[inner dune]

many things are misrepresented or wrongly in life. unfortunate stuff.

[last dew]

I know that. But there's no evidence about Vikings having horned helmets. I heard that's a myth, yet Nords in Skyrim have horned helmets.

Nords are based on both myth and history of the Vikings and Norse stuff.

[feral viper]

Technically, Vikings weren't even a people. It was a job..

[pulsar root]

Its a fantasy world, them being more creative with myths is fine by me. Now something like AC: Valhala differents story(And docmentaries.

[feral viper]

Our image of Vikings is like... Trying to depict Lawyer society.

[last dew]

It's a fantasy video game. What do you expect?

[feral viper]

Well, Skyrim stumbles into better depiction of Danish culture of that time.

It's 90% farming, mining, and fighting eachother over petty things.

I don't think there's a single Viking in all of Skyrim. As much as it's TRYING to be Viking

[last dew]

Jorvaskr.

[feral viper]

It's beards are terrible though. The Danes would be ashamed.

[feral viper]

Nah, that's just a fancy mead hall. Not a Viking to be found there.

[last dew]

Jorvaskr is a Meadhall, made out of a Ship sailed by the Five Hundred Companions, and has shields on them...

I think you're being contrarian for the sake of being contrairian.

[feral viper]

Vikings were raiders. They even had a school for it.

No one in Skyrim raids.

[last dew]

Nords are based on Norse Vikings and broader Scandinavian cultures.

Sovngarde is based on Valhalla. Nords fighting and dying in battle to join others in Sovngarde.

[feral viper]

Which was ironically based on a Christian's retelling of Norse culture and isn't really that accurate.

Death in battle wasn't even a guarantee

[last dew]

Common Nord names, as well as certain aspects of Nord culture and tradition, are inspired by real-world Nordic cultures and Norse mythology. Their burial practices are based off Ancient Egypt, with the idea behind Nordic ruins being to have magnificent stone structures that would stand the test of time, like the pyramids of Egypt. Adam Adamowicz came up with having them shaped like ribcages, giving the developers the sense that they were made out of dead dragon skeletons, and were filled with iconography similar to egyptian heiroglyphs. Other inspirations in naming and culture periodically come from Germanic and Slavic motifs.

[feral viper]

I know where Skyrim built it's style from, don't get me wrong.

My point is that it's very removed from actuality. It's built off the pop-culture idea of Norse and Danish culture, not the reality.

[last dew]

I know that. It doesn't matter whether it's accurate or not based on mythology. The point is it's a fantasy game in a fictional video game with fictional stuff based on things from both real life cultures and mythological stuff and myth cultures about it. If it has modern guns in Skyrim, that'd be a different story.

[feral viper]

And I think it's competent. It good, not bad, but competent.

Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, which had no culture to speak of. But it's still not really worth setting as a goal.

Even Morrowind is just good. It could still be much better.

[last dew]

I can agree Skyrim is much better as a role playing game and the setting in the land and world building, as well as fun spells and powerful weapons and armor. The music especially.

And back to the original topic about the Blood Eagle thing. It may have been shown in ancient texts and stones, but there's still not much evidence about it aside from what's written in the books or bible, it could've easily become a pop-culture for games, tv shows, and movies, and other media.

That's why I imagine what if there's a Nord who is a descendant of the Red Eagle, then became nicknamed "Blood Eagle" and invented a brutal execution method against the blood of Skyrim's enemies which he would also call Blood Eagle.

Yes, I know, that's just my fanfiction. Imagine even roleplaying as one in Skyrim.

[feral viper]

Well, not the Bible... Lots of messed up stuff in the Bible, but not that specifically.

[last dew]

Whatever the case. You know what I mean.

[feral viper]

But yeah, it's the sort of thing that, despite its historicity in reality, is definitely something that could happen in a fantasy setting rather easily.

[last dew]

Yes.

[feral viper]

I mean, we're talking a setting with Gut Gardens, soo...

Eat your heart out, Assyria.

[last dew]

Speaking of that, from Michael Kirkbride's C0Da, there was a mention about something to do with Jubal ripping out Talos' heart out. Not exactly the same as Blood Eagle, but...

[feral viper]

I believe he was using it as a reference to the Lost Song of Whlfharth

And of course, Lorkhan's 'death'.

A recurring theme for the Lorkhankc figures.

[last dew]

Ah... ripping hearts. One of the generic combat lines in Skyrim I hear from NPCs in Nord voice. "I'll Rip Your Heart Out!".

[noble verge]

I think the depiction of the Nords in TES V is a step up from their depiction in Bloodmoon.

[last dew]

The Morrowind DLC?

[noble verge]

Yeah, that one

[last dew]

And we returned to that DLC Island of Solsteim, but this time full of Dunmer in the Dragonborn DLC. Even though they are rare, we have to beware of the werebears there..... they travel in packs.

Ok, I see what you're saying @feral viper . Beowulf who came to help Hrothgar, the King of the Danes about the Mead Hall being attacked by Grendel, is what the inspiration about the Underfyte attack on Thirsk Mead Hall is based on.

[noble verge]

It seems that a lot of Bloodmoon stuff got retconned out.

No more berserkers or fryse hags. Grahl are replaced by the three-eyed trolls. No talk of Wergild in the Nordic justice system. Draugr are no longer associated with cannibalism.

[feral viper]

Yeah...

A lot of Skyrim feels very much like they looked at Bloodmoon and were like:

https://tenor.com/view/how-about-no-sloth-chill-nope-no-gif-6121955

And then they ditched all the Celtic influences on top of that.

Now, that's not to say I don't like a lot of what's in Skyrim.

I just think it could have been approached much better.

[last dew]

That also reminds me, after watching episodes of Vikings, and after seeing clips of the 13th Warrior... I can definitely see why Bethesda had Vladamir Kunich voice Ulfric. They knew what they were doing at that time.

[feral viper]

The Draugr in Skyrim actually have more in common with the Haugbui anyway...

[noble verge]

TES III also had a Nordic tomb with a burial ship, something that doesn't appear in subsequent Nordic depictions.

[last dew]

Imagine if there was a live action Elder Scrolls series that takes place in the Great War, and Vladamir Kunich portrays as live action Ulfric Stormcloak.... if only that happened years ago if Vladamir was more younger at that time. Such missed opportunities.

[noble verge]

I'm a little disappointed that TES V didn't have any naked Nord barbarians who ran afoul of witches that stole their gear.

[feral viper]

Fallout has been successful enough, I can't imagine the idea of a TES show or film hasn't been talked about behind closed doors.

[feral viper]

True Nords let the winter winds cradle the icicle.

[last dew]

That's what happens when Nords are too trusting of attractive witches. They get easily deceived by witches with a pretty face.

[feral viper]

Isn't the running joke that the Witch is always said Nords wife?

And he's just a drunk moron?

[noble verge]

In one quest, the "witch" is a healer who got upset when the barbarian got too handsy, and she'll explain her side of the story. Or she would, if it weren't for how janky it is to unlock topic options in TES III. In another, it's genuinely a witch, and in the third, you never see the Witch, but the PC's journal says that they're pretty sure the barbarian offended her.

Oops I replied to the wrong post.

[feral viper]

Maybe I'm mixing them up then

[last dew]

I see what you mean.

[feral viper]

It's been awhile.

[night ember]

man I am so excited to find out which slopper is the lead on TES6, not giving it to Kurt is so funny

such peak bethesda. "uhh you're above 90 IQ and thus not fit to lead a modern bethesda project"

[pulsar root]

Kurt being gone is fine. Mr Empire strikes back.... @_@

[night ember]

Well he knew the lore better than anyone else at bethesda or zenimax

maybe they're flying out whoever wrote tanlorin to run the show lmao

[pulsar root]

"better then anyone" Yeah I really doubt that.

[night ember]

better than anyone who will have this job instead, yeah

they are just terrified of any unique and interesting perspective over there, starfield being a perfect example of that.

[pulsar root]

No, not really. Acting like Bethesda chose someone below "90 IQ" is really dumb.

[night ember]

I mean they already did with starfield, won't say his name cause it'll get deleted but I'm sure you can figure out who I'm referring to

genuinely a very stupid guy given an insane amount of creative and managerial authority, and it shows in every facet of that game.

that gdc presentation is one of the best comedy films of the 2010s

[nimble pond]

I'd appreciate it if they start giving the water environment more love. Different underwater and surface biomes, coral kingdoms, types of underwater trees, ocean surface oasis, more marine animal diversity and types. Time of day/night affecting the type of ocean life encountered, sometimes a whole section may light up with jellyfish or other luminescent life and vegetation, watching an apex aquatic animal hunt down other acquatic life. Various weather effects and events, typhoons, rogue waves, cyclones, whirlpools, underwater volcano eruptions!! Even some aquatic life that can cause special and rare types of weather, something fictional & fantasy, caused by a mystical aquatic beast. I always thought it'd be cool to see some herd of sea creatures shooting bubbles high up into the sky that explode and glow in the night sky like fireworks, and maybe causing some of the other types of sea creates to make a unique music, sort of a party or celebration in their own way. And then there's the crossover between land & sea, the beaches. Some creatures being seen in both environments.
And that's only the start.. The overall base development of aquatic environments has been so far behind. ):
I mean there's great exploration on land, but I like having something else to go to or bounce back and forth between so either one never grows stale. Besides, life is better under the sea! 🦀

Also, introduce hailstorms as a weather event. I just love hail in general.

[dim reef]

I'm surprised TES has so little nudity. It's an M rated franchise. Even Bioware managed to have nudity in DAI

But no. Everyone conveniently wears bras and underwears. Even the damn foresworn

It's hilarious finding stuff like holes full of dropped dead bodies in dungeons and all of them have their underwears on like lmao

[sour pilot]

I have no doubt there's a mod or 3 to fix that 🤦‍♂️

[nimble pond]

Orcs in bikinis at the beach?

Frankly, I wish hagravens had more feathers.. not less

[junior kettle]

We have forsworn in very little clothing in Skyrim and various other revealing armor, I don't really see what nudity adds

[dim reef]

It's the underwears that look stupid. Either make the armors/outfits non lootable or just add nudity.

Like i said. Finding areas full of dead bodies that have everything looted yet for some reason all have their underwears on just looks stupid as all hell.

And also please for the love of god make some decayed body models too.
They always either have a skeleton or fresh body. Like everyone apart from the draugrs just directly go from flesh to skeletal state

[jade plover]

It also doesn't have swears, gore and much blood, so i don't get how is it even M rated. I don't know how american ratings work though

[dim reef]

Nah there is gore but it's locked behind a perk for some reason

no dragonborn. Clearly you can't chop people's limbs off before you learn this super precise technique of whacking someone with a sword

[jade plover]

When you cut off heads it still looks very muted. Look at fallout 4, for example, when you shoot off lims there, they explode with blood

[dim reef]

Yeah Fallout is definitely way ahead in terms of gore

[jade plover]

True, idk why they removed zombies

[noble verge]

Skyrim is pretty tame as far as M-rated games go. And for what it's worth, I don't think that games should have any obligation to push the limits of whatever age rating they're presumably aiming for.

If anything, compared to Larian, CDPR, and Bioware, the lack of nudity in Bethesda games makes it feel like an outlier when it comes to RPGs. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

[gloomy kraken]

So this came up in starfield chat and I'm gonna ask it here

[noble verge]

For what it's worth they added them back in one of the early CC mods.

[junior kettle]

CDPR's "maturity" hits levels of immaturity

[gloomy kraken]

If the hist could kiss would it be a good kisser?

[junior kettle]

A lot of CP2077's "mature" level design is a 13 year old finding out what a adult toy is

[noble verge]

Probably depends on the individual Hist.

[junior kettle]

or the dumb cards you get in Witcher 1

[gloomy kraken]

Real

[junior kettle]

There's maturity and then there's "lmao hey all you hear about BOOBS!!!!"

[dim reef]

Atleast AE added them back

[jade plover]

Found ESRB descriptions
Teen
Games with this rating contain content that the ESRB believes is suitable for ages 13 and over, including aggressive depictions of violence with minimal blood, moderate suggestive themes, crude humor, and stronger use of profane language
Mature
Games with this rating contain content that the ESRB believes is suitable for ages 17 and over, including intense and/or realistic depictions of violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and frequent use of profane and vulgar language.

[dim reef]

I don't think every game should push it.
But ES is a franchise that definitely should. It's lore and world is built around mature stuff like that

[jade plover]

Any TES games fits more T rating than M

[dim reef]

Like i don't expect Starfield to push the limits because it's world is more upbeat and less bloody.
But ES definitely should and so does Fallout

[noble verge]

Pretty much. Morrowind got away with a T rating, Oblivion started out with a T rating before being re-rated, and Skyrim moved away from the two particular things that got Oblivion re-rated, and I assume it got an M rating because of the finishing moves.

Which while they constituted "intense violence" back in the late 00s/turn of the 10s era, seem kind of tame today.

[gloomy kraken]

Average college experience

That and people saying 67 all day 🥀🥀

[dim reef]

I mean the same argument goes both ways.
If it's really so tame a thing why so scared of doing it.

My point is the maturity in ES's lore and what the game's themselves portray is just a bit disconnected

Like you hear of so many brutal ways magic has been used to kill people then in game you just see basic ragdolls

[junior kettle]

I'll take mature subjects which Bethesda does fine with over the 13 year old mentality cdpr has

Nudity alone =/= mature

[dim reef]

I don't want random nudity. I want it done sensibly as well.

[junior kettle]

And yet you use CDPR as an example

So I highly question that lol

[noble verge]

One of the things I liked about Starfield is that the fairly idealistic tone (despite being a setting where earth was destroyed) makes it the odd one out compared to all the other grimdark, edgy, often satirical science fiction videogame settings making rounds.

[dim reef]

I gave Bioware as an example as well.
I was talking about the M rating

[junior kettle]

Yea and I'm talking the things you're asking for aren't mature by nature and often hit into edgy immaturity

A game can have mature subjects without resorting to nudity or intercourse

Which again Bethesda does fine with

[dim reef]

I used them an an example to say Bethesda is the only big rpg studio that plays it safe.
That doesn't mean both cdpr and bioware do it perfectly

They have their flaws but atleast they attempt it. Bethesda has never done it

[junior kettle]

Nudity is no longer "taking risks"

[noble verge]

At this point it'd feel more like trend-chasing.

[dim reef]

Right. If it's no longer a risk then why is Bethesda not doing it

[junior kettle]

now it's just a "why does it matter if I can make my genitals big"

At least saints row was upfront about its immaturity

[dim reef]

Immaturity is when you find looted dead bodies that are sensibly fully naked vs having random under wears strapped to them.
Right

[junior kettle]

That's not maturity though lol the presence of nudity is not mature

[dim reef]

It is stupid. Which is what I'm talking about.

I brought up maturity because of the games' rating. I was asking why they're so afraid of doing it when their games are literally m rated

[junior kettle]

Mature subjects are ones that hit on real life issues like the addictiveness of drugs, forced labor, an ethnic group being targeted by a ruling class, that hits harder than "oh boy boobies!!!"

Which again Bethesda does a good job with

[dim reef]

Right.
So let's see how well Bethesda handles those others things too.
Hm.
I don't recall any proper questline dealing with drug issues or addictions, the forced labor aspects of both skyrim and morrowind are only told to you rather than shown.

Not doing particularly good in that regard either do they

[junior kettle]

Starfield we have an entire city that's founded around a drug that is easy to od on and is regularly provided to employees from the company, markarth and windhelm are both filled with commentaries on oppressed minorities

[dim reef]

The so called slum i.e the gray quarter is crystal clean. Roughly 2 or 3 beggars, no filth, no people getting beat up like dialogues suggest.

Nothing

[dim reef]

Are you really trying to bring up Neon City as an example of a well executed city

[junior kettle]

Yea because neon is a good commentary

The grey quarter is noticeably rundown and the dunmer are under constant harassment

[dim reef]

It's not when nothing you see matches the dialogue.
The literal den of vice is a small square room with a small stage that has 3 people dancing with stupid costumes

[junior kettle]

It's literally filled with drug users all throughout ebbside and xenofresh regularly supplies it's workers with the drug

[dim reef]

There's like 3 of them in the entire club bruh

[dim reef]

Yeah. Constant harassment and we see exactly 3 instances of them.

[junior kettle]

The entire point of markarth is also the silver bloods making up crimes to lock up reach folk to use as forced labor

Reachfolk also being forced into a slum

[dim reef]

Again. We're told not shown. Which is my problem.

Cidhna Mine is once again completely crystal clean with no semblance of filth or violence as an oppressive place like it's built up to be through dialogue

[junior kettle]

We absolutely are shown what are you talking about lmao you're making cidhna mine out to be a resort when we're directly told it runs on a three strike policy, has no clean air and the prisoners have to ration food because sometimes the guards don't feed the prisoners

[dim reef]

Again.
Told. Not shown.
You're not getting the problem. We don't see any of the bad stuff we're told visually

[noble verge]

Plus there's the fact Madanach has organized almost the entire prison population into a Forsworn band under the Nords' noses.

[junior kettle]

I think you're just making a problem because you don't understand the issues that the games show and do a good job of showing mature themes without having to resort to nudity and edgy material

[dim reef]

You're telling me they ration food and beat people in the mine and not a single one of the prisoners look even remotely malnourished or beaten up with scars?

[dim reef]

No i think you don't understand the difference between telling and showing something.
The issue has moved way beyond nudity.
If you think simply showing brutality visually is edgy then i don't know what to say except we can agree to disagree on what we consider good or bad depiction of maturity

[junior kettle]

No I do, Bethesda does a good job with both

[dim reef]

I disagree. Let's leave it at that

[noble verge]

I think I recall Fallout 3's The Pitt having unique textures for the slaves due to the disease that's slowly turning them into monsters.

[dim reef]

Yeah. Fallout while not perfect is still leagues ahead of ES in terms of visually showing the brutality of it's setting

[junior kettle]

Nah both are equally good at it

[noble verge]

Although like I was saying, Cidhna is an interesting case because almost the entire population is part of one gang, and anyone who doesn't throw in with Madanach probably doesn't last very long.

[junior kettle]

It's a commentary on the oppression of a group will lead to extremism

Silver bloods are actively creating crimes or blaming innocent people for them to keep a steady flow of workers for their mines based on their race and culture that it creates extremists due to unjust and horrible forced labor

[noble verge]

And Thonar has the hubris to think he can control those extremists.

[junior kettle]

The oppressors are often not as smart as they think they are, it's one of the points of the silver-blood

[nimble pond]

It'd be cool if they at least allowed us to use necromancy to keep the severed heads talking. Let us know how they really feel after having their head chopped or just up for some conversation as travel companions. Might even start a choir at home with a couple of em.

[dim reef]

There's a quest like that in FO4 where a bunch of scientists talk to some criminals after chopping their brains off their bodies to put in robobrains.
It's quite creepy. I'd love something like that.

I think there's one in 76 as well. You get to choose between 3 brains to put in a robobrain, except one of those brains came from a woman who game ended herself and is absolutely devastated if you bring her back by turning her into a Robobrain

[hearty otter]

Regarding nudity & sexuality in the TES series, the first two entries in the series showed female toplessness, especially centred upon the Dibellan temple servants or women of Mannimarco. In Daggerfall, the letter & writings that Queen Barenaziah did not want anybody to see (and asked you to help censor it) was a surprisingly explicit account of her life and her relationship with men. In Arena and Daggerfall, you could make your player character nude though it was toplessness on an equal basis and both sexes were like Barbie & Ken dolls down there.
Daggerfall was actually the more mature title of the first two because it was extremely focused on politics and exchange of power between kings and queens etc & it discussed daedra & gods & witches' interactions with rest of mortal life in Tamriel.
Arena thoough does talk about how there is a powerr struggle between an evil person and a hapless emperor.
So they did deal in actual mature themes in their own ways.

[junior kettle]

Morrowind introduced a drug epidemic and had a ton of commentary on slavery which continues in modern Bethesda games including ESO and skyrim

The lack of nudity again is not the lack of maturity

[hearty otter]

True. Never said anything to the contrary. I'm just bringing over missing historical context

It was a brief moment in Bethesda history yet nudity in TES games did happen

After Arena and Daggerfall, they never did that again

[noble verge]

Battlespire also had nudity, although I suppose that counts as being Daggerfall era.

[hearty otter]

Thanks, though I never played that one 😄 Yes I agree it counts

[junior kettle]

You can blame a lot of that on mainstream push to remove more explicit stuff from games due to the backlash Mortal Kombat and other games were the focus of in the 90s, hence why they focused more on writing and level design

[hearty otter]

So after Battlespire, it never happened (unless there was nudity in Shadowkey... XD) again

[hearty otter]

I remember that backlash at the time. It was intense lol

I think 2001/2 was the turning point for games mostly cleaning themselves up

[junior kettle]

Which honestly I prefer because we got better ways to depict certain stuff instead of going the cringey edgy way that's sadly coming back

[hearty otter]

I think we can balance both approaches though I'm certainly not a fan of many attempts towards poo-joke & babyish cursing sort of maturity in games. There's some genius exceptions to that, however, if you don't have the skills to do that sort of thing, don't bother. We need to try new things yet we must do them with tact with a sense of fun that punches up if we are to make these sort of games

I love the early Ratchet & Clank games & Conker's Bad Fur Day so these are the exceptions to my personal thumb of rule. They did it well and it's impossible to replicate that now

(the early Ratchet & Clank games has a subtext of social alienation, critique of capitalism, critique of media & its manipulation of its consumers' perception of the subjects it covers, pedestalisation of people who do not deserve to be respected, and so on)

Back to Elder Scrolls, if it has a great story, great RPG elements, anything that is indicative of actual quality, it should not matter whether it has nudity or not

[nimble pond]

Thinking back, I remember that one game, BMX XXX. Iykyk, lol.
It was on Xbox & PS2, and even the GameCube. 💀
Though, Conker's Bad Fur Day (Original on Nintendo, not Xbox version) was good times, ngl.

[hearty otter]

OH MY GOD - I remember that title 😂 🤣

[strange abyss]

Great rpg elements are a must, as much as I adored the time I spent with Starfield, a game made for everyone is a game made for no one, and it became more evident the deeper I dove into the games systems

[hearty otter]

Yeah, I think we need to create a more diverse set of games because we have a less of a mass-culture audience than we did in the past. We all used to play Mario Brothers & Donkey Kong then Tetris then MK then we drifted apart around 2007 to 2009 imo

[nimble pond]

Well said - "a game made for everyone is a game made for no one."

It's like whittling yourself, your own identity, away to appease others, till there's no true identity of yourself left.

[hearty otter]

GTA 6 is basically one of the few games there is that evokes the old mass culture we had

Now we are trying to find something that fits us and the games industry is not yet fully recognising that fact

[dim reef]

The discussion wasn't just about nudity. It was but an example, what i was saying is that i think the ES games simply don't depict the maturity of their lore in a visual way.
I just they think they need to be more bold in their depictions beyond just explaining how things are.

As i said. Cidhna Mine, a supposedly hellishly oppressive place looks squeaky clean. The prisoners who are supposedly beaten regularly, given less food etc. somehow don't show a single sign of malnourishment, scars or anything else

[hearty otter]

What examples of such do you wish TES did more of? There's some stuff I wish TES did more of as well, like going into the aspects of the daedra, Aedra, the limits of the myths and in-universe reality

[dim reef]

Well first of all add some actual filth. A slum for example like the grey quarter should actually look like a slum. Clogged water, mud, trash etc. should be strewn all around

[hearty otter]

Yes - such contradictions between lore and actuality within the game does matter but I think it's also that Bethesda is haunted by the spectre of the AO rating controversy in America imo

If USA treated AO rating more like we treat R18 in New Zealand, I doubt we would be discussing this

[dim reef]

In the past sure but that's why i brought up those other studios.

They're not perfect and they certainly overdo things but no one seems to bat an eye towards them attempting all those things.
So i don't see what Bethesda is so afraid of.

[hearty otter]

I need to play these games more 😅 but yeah what I did play of them does dovetail a bit with your observations and it's fair to ask for a bit more sense of grit really

[junior kettle]

Bethesda isnt afraid that's why their games are full of mature content

Just because it isn't "WHOA LOOK A NAKED DEAD BODY wink wink nudge nudge" doesn't change that

[dim reef]

Yes. A mature game where burning people alive doesn't actually burn them but causes them to ragdoll.

But NOOO. BURNT BODIES ARE EDGY. OHHHHH

[junior kettle]

There are numerous burnt dead bodies what are you talking about lmao

Oblivion, fallout 3, fallout 4 and Skyrim all gave burnt up dead bodies

[dim reef]

Yeah that's why the actual spells we cast never burn people alive

[junior kettle]

You should actually play the games and look at what's in them

[dim reef]

Maybe you should too

[nimble pond]

I get what you mean. But it's the same with the film industry. Most things are made to be enjoyed by the entire family with a wide age range. Lose that if it's too explicit, heck might even offend some adults or their religion. I remember Bulletstorm got some criticism, but it wasn't even that bad imo.. But I've gotten used to the whole "made for the entire family" angle at this point.

[junior kettle]

I do, that's why I noticed burnt bodies in various dungeons

[dim reef]

As did i. I also noticed somehow not a single fire spell burns anyone alive

They just immediately drop dead as their health drops to zero. No unique screams. No flailing around.
Just ragdoll

[junior kettle]

And yet we're constantly shown burnt and mutilated bodies soooo again you're just making points that ignore in-game content

So again Bethesda isn't afraid you're just making points that ignore what's in the game to make a false claim

[hearty otter]

I think Bethesda is trying to balance both their built in fandom and the newbies and that's why you're seeing such things. I'm okay with the odd approach towards corpse & their cause of death etc, it's meant to be representative of what happened, not graphically depicting what happened

[dim reef]

That is just flat out wrong. None of the dead bodies we see are mutilated. They're somehow fully intact

So again. Maybe play the games yourself before complementing Bethesda's supposed bravery

[junior kettle]

We see numerous mutilated bodies throughout oblivion and Skyrim, we see them hanged, impaled, desecrated, beheaded

And yes, even burnt!

You notice this when you play the games

[dim reef]

Oh yeah. Name me one mutilated body in any dungeon in Skyrim that's not intact.
And no AE zombies don't count, they were added later

[hearty otter]

I do remember the hooked up corpses in either Oblivion or Skyrim

[nimble pond]

Then again, you have GTA, where you can run over the prostitute to get your money back. And like almost everyone has played those games.

So, can't really say anything is holding back Bethesda from adding more explicitness to their games if they want to.

[hearty otter]

But they were glossed by

[junior kettle]

All you have to do is Google "Skyrim burnt bodies" and the image results do the work

[junior kettle]

They really really weren't when they're extremely noticeable

[hearty otter]

You can be graphic about certain things yet gloss it in such a way that it slips you by

[junior kettle]

You even get a beheading kill move if you use two handed in Skyrim

Forsworn camps are literally decorated in human skulls too

[hearty otter]

That move was in line with the trend of games I was playing at the time imo

[dim reef]

Oh damn. I just realized. I was confusing "mutilation" with "decapitation"

That's why i was saying all the bodies are intact

[hearty otter]

Same like I said before - it was nothing remarkable at the time

[junior kettle]

They aren't is the thing

[dim reef]

That none of them have any limbs or heads cut off

[junior kettle]

Again actually play the game and you'll see plenty of mutilated bodies through various dungeons.

[hearty otter]

I will do that next time I play any TES game. Arena excepted lol

[junior kettle]

And once more like nudity gore =/= maturity

[dim reef]

Yeah. I confused them with any kind of severed body parts. My bad.

[junior kettle]

You can have a mature game without gore. Bethesda has a ton of mature content

[dim reef]

But still. It doesn't change my other criticism. The actual spells you cast never burn anyone

And my point about locations supposed to be oppressive and dirty being clean still stands

[junior kettle]

They aren't but again that relies on playing the games

[dim reef]

They are but yes. It relies on playing the game.
And I'm positive I'm not confusing words this time

[junior kettle]

You really really are if you think a forced labor mine is clean and pristine

[dim reef]

Because it literally is. We are TOLD it's dirty and oppressive.
We never SEE it as such

It literally is too clean for what it's described as. What the dialogues suggest

Same goes for the sewers. It's a damn sewer yet there's barely any filth

You compare the Riften sewer to something like the sewer in Mafia 2 which came out in 2010. The difference is night and day

[nimble pond]

I was deeply disappointed to not find Mr. Hankey down there..

[junior kettle]

You should play Skyrim before making incorrect claims

[dim reef]

You should too

[hearty otter]

You don't want to gross out your players who are out to play a somewhat mature yet lighthearted fantasy game

[dim reef]

[hearty otter]

It probably makes sense for Mafia 2 to do that, it's all about the gritty crimeworld and its dealings

[dim reef]

Maybe but didn't y'all just discuss a game for everyone is a game for no one. Ya gotta commit to something

If you don't want to do it then don't add a sewer.
Cos' design wise it's not like it makes any sense seeing as we never see any toilets in game

[junior kettle]

Oh the sewers that are depicted as dirty, filled with rats, drug addicts and mentally unwell and violent people including a war veteran with PTSD

Well dang I guess Skyrim is mature

[dim reef]

Ah yes. Barely any dirt and two rats.
So dirty and filthy

Extremely disgusting. Bleugh

[hearty otter]

I think the identity of TES is in its sense of interplay between the world of the beyond and the mortal, its story of the slow collapse of the Empire and the experience of an insignificant person versus a vast world

My favourite games in the series are Morrowind, Daggerfall and Oblivion

[nimble pond]

On that note, at least in Skyrim, I think the buckets fulfill that purpose, if you pay attention to where they are placed

[hearty otter]

All brought something to the table and I love them for that

[dim reef]

Ye. Which makes it even weird why there's even a sewer to begin with

[dim reef]

Maybe so. I just feel they could do with touch more boldness.
Not over do it. But just a bit more

[junior kettle]

Oh right it's not filled with naked people swinging their bits about and then being mutilated

So not mature

[dim reef]

Like having a sewer actually be filled with more clogged water, you-know-what, trash and the like.
And maybe more than 2 skeevers

[hearty otter]

Because a modern TES sewer is a semiotic stand-in for a dungeon crawl begun in Arena & Daggerfall and I think Bethesda wants us to fill in the imaginative blanks that they stopped doing after Daggerfall/Battlespire

[junior kettle]

Which is depicted in riften sewers lol

[dim reef]

I wish Riften sewers actually had that but ah well. Guess it's too edgy

[nimble pond]

You're all right tbh. There is maturity in there, but at the same time the overall game has this.. gloss that makes it feel like a friendly world more than anything.

[dim reef]

Anyway. I feel we'll keep throwing snide remarks about this forever. Better to agree to disagree and leave it at that

[noble verge]

If I am remembering correctly, Riften's sewers were built for a city that no longer exists as it once did.

My bad, I replied to the wrong post again

[dim reef]

It's aright. No problem

[hearty otter]

I guess part of Bethesda's reasoning for allowing mods is because they want their fans to create realistic sewers for them and they don't have to endure outraged parents yelling at them lol

[hearty otter]

Yeah - that was what I experienced when I recalled the hooked up corpse. It was odd how mundanely it was handled

[nimble pond]

I'm often distracted by the abundance of butterflies & bunnies 😊

[hearty otter]

Same XD

[dim reef]

Nah the buildings and general town layout was similar. Iirc it's the farms and stuff that have a troubled past.
I think one side of the wall was attacked once

Ok nevermind. It was attacked again

[noble verge]

Riften burned down in 4E 129

[dim reef]

Yeah. I'm reading the lore. Everything was burnt down

This is how it looked in the 2nd era
https://images.uesp.net/thumb/5/56/ON-place-Riften_08.jpg/800px-ON-place-Riften_08.jpg

[gloomy kraken]

Riften do be burning down a lot

[noble verge]

I'd guess that the sewers have probably been out of service ever since the city burned down.

[hearty otter]

It's making me want to bust that "if I had a penny" joke out lol

[dim reef]

Funny to think no one thought "hey we have an entire sewer system. Maybe we should try reconnecting it to our new homes"

[noble verge]

One small thing that's always bugged me about TES ever since TES III is how they move water upward.

Like, how do the cantons of Vivec have flowing water up into the waistworks? How does Solitude maintain a sewer when they're sitting on a natural arch? How does Riften have such extensive sewers below the waterline?

[dim reef]

Pumps maybe?

[past surge]

is there anyway to know when the eso servers are back up other then trying to play.

[hearty otter]

Somebody who watches Any Austin like me 😄 You have good taste

[dim reef]

There's these things the romans had
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct

[hearty otter]

Yeah pipes or aqueducts are a reasonable answer

Could they be doing irrigation work or is there a geological feature unique to Nirn?

[noble verge]

I almost forgot, Mournhold had a valve that let you completely flood a section of the sewer.

[junior kettle]

Aqueducts aren't all that viable and have a lot of structural issues which is why a lot of irrigation is focused around underground water ways and making artificial rivers and canals.

That's why no one builds them anymore

[jade plover]

Conversation started with the fact that skyrim has M rating. Its not supposed to be a "family friendly" game

[mossy horizon]

Yes, it is among a few of the only VR games that are actually worth playing in my opinion. Especially with mods.

[bitter wagon]

yeah same here i love it but sadly i cant hump in it xD yet

[junior kettle]

Nah I don't agree it's a very mature game and the critique it's not because it doesn't have nudity and mutilation are not what makes something mature because both can be used in a immature fashion, for instance Fallout which treats it's gore on a cartoonish comedic level rather than something that's shocking or thought invoking. Maturity is more than just presentation, it's themes, messages, how it's handled in tone. This is why I brought up Saint's Row earlier which has a lot of adult themes but an unserious tone because it's meant to revel in the immaturity of its comedy and absurdity

Now Fallout uses gore as a comedic device but at the same time handles serious issues, it combines immaturity and mature themes for a long time which is also fine, it's visual presentation gets silly but it handles messages like how a certain type of workers in New Vegas were kept in debt and addiction to force them to work or how fallout 4 is a commentary on chattel slavery which two continuations of previous American institutions having a different approach to the slave race that was built into servitude

Elder Scrolls takes itself more serious than Fallout though so there's no balance of immaturity and maturity, it is strictly a mature setting

It's like saying Star Trek isn't a mature show because one episode has a prisoner exchange that turns into a comedy where one prisoner is turned into a weekend at Bernie's level walking corpse while ignoring all the serious messages about war

And saying it's "glosses" over stuff because it's not putting your face against a mutilated body and going "WHOA LOOK A DEAD BODY OOOOO" is also a wrong take on maturity while ignoring the use of said dead body to portray an image of what kind of place you are in

And finally if you think a dirty cramped mine or a decrepit sewer is "clean and pristine" then I think you need to find some hygienic living advice from someone other than asmongold

Skyrim has issues as does oblivion but no one has actually said them in this discussion

[hearty otter]

I never said anything of the sort at all. You have misread what I was getting at. It was an aesthetic weirdness, a strange disconnect in how it was executed versus how I went through the area. It still felt mature nonetheless. I was remarking on how it glosses over the violence VISUALLY.

I'll make one thing explicit now.

I am Deaf. I process all media visually and mentally. @junior kettle

That has an impact on how I experience such things

I did note a dead body. I did note the death. I did note the violence. It added up towards the darkness. I still considered it mature even with how it visually, mechanically & aesthetically glosses over that hooked-up corpse. It felt like it was part of the scene all along. I did not have to linger on the death because I was directed not to and it was visual shorthand for the place I was in.

Maybe I'll be more unsubtle about such things in the future.

[junior kettle]

It doesn't gloss over anything is the issue

Again you're making an incorrect statement

[hearty otter]

I walked through the area and did not register anything unusual at the time. I realised it when I was in the conversation. That was my experience.

[hearty otter]

Why?

I did not experience it as anything unusual because I took it all in as one big shorthand that it was a place where dark things happened and it was not something I thought was unusual nor shocking in an overly edgy manner

Only did tonight I realise it could have been something unusual because you were all talking of corpses being unrealistic or abstract or never suffered effects of actual violence

To me at the time, it was literally an image of what kind of place I was in

I process everything visually whenever I play a video game.

[junior kettle]

That's on you then, not on the game. I register it as being mature and depicting what kind of place I'm in

[hearty otter]

Same. We are actually agreeing. We both register it as being mature.

It's just I'm literally seeing what kind of place I'm in, too. I walked through it quickly.

This is just plain goddamn miscommunication.

I'm done with this conversation.

For the record: I consider all the TES games as mature kind of games.

[feral viper]

I definitely think they think they're mature.

But between squeamishness on the part of creators, and wider western social taboos, they never really manage to BE mature.

Though, I also think Witcher 3 is far less mature than it's gratuitous use of nudity would imply at first glance.

[dim reef]

I'd say KCD is a better example of well executed maturity

[hearty otter]

KCD?

[dim reef]

Kingdom Come Deliverance

[hearty otter]

Thanks

[dim reef]

Witcher 3 like i said does atleast attempt it but it does over do things a bit

But even so there are exceptions. The Bloody Baron questline is phenomenal

[hearty otter]

I'm intrigued by this, please explain 😄

I'm always on the outlook for good games to play

[dim reef]

It handles a lot of dark undertones without over indulging in dark imagery.

It does have them but not nearly as much as witcher 3. There's a good balance.

Like for example there's this scene at the end of KCD2 where the bad guy you've been chasing all game is near death lying on his chair and he says he remembers everyone he's ever killed and that he feels sorry for all.
The whole cutscene is absolutely harrowing

I'm not sure I'm doing it justice explaining it like this but see it for yourself. It's a brilliant scene. Look up 'KCD2 markvart von aulitz death'

And now I'll go back to ES before the conversation derails to other games too much

[hearty otter]

Now I'm sold. We need more moments like that in games

Okay back to TES.

How about that Padomay? XD

[feral viper]

Padomay is not

[dim reef]

Y'all think ES6 will have boats or ships?

Not static ones but something you can drive yourself

[hearty otter]

It would be nice to see a return of ships and yes it should be something you drive yourself

[junior kettle]

Both are equally mature

[dim reef]

I already said i disagree with what you see as mature. I was replying to Terical saying Witcher 3 is a bit flimsy when depicting mature stuff

[junior kettle]

Again there's different levels of maturity, being ultra violent is not maturity on its own, nudity is not maturity on its own. Themes and messages, how characters act and react, how they talk, that matters more. Maturity can be overt and it can be reserved

That's a shame, you're still way off on maturity is

[dim reef]

I'd love some AC4 style naval combat

[hearty otter]

Think of all the pirates from other areas of Nirn or Tamriel! 😄

[junior kettle]

If it's hammerfell we'll definitely see pirates, especially given it's on its own against the dominion

[dim reef]

Maybe we'll see that dremora pirate again too

[junior kettle]

I doubt we'll see naval combat much since TES doesn't really have cannons, but it'd be nice if Redguards develop firearms to combat the Dominion's magic users

[hearty otter]

I need to play Redguard so thanks for that timely reminder

[junior kettle]

It did not age well lol

Apparently on win10/11 it runs fine out of the box but the gameplay is really Of It's Time

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Redguard:Controls

[hearty otter]

I kind of want to play it cos I heard it was the purest expression of what Todd Howard wanted in a game

[dim reef]

We have some instances of cannons like these dwemer gauntlet thingies
https://images.uesp.net/5/5f/ON-npc-Reclaimer.jpg

And if Legends is canon. There's this too
https://images.uesp.net/5/55/LG-cardart-Iliac_Sorcerer.png

[junior kettle]

It was Todd's first time directing a game and it shows

I thought that legends card was changed to remove the cannons

[dim reef]

Nah

[junior kettle]

All I want from TES6 is to follow starfield's quest gameplay design

Including not being the leader of a faction. That one definitely needs to be in TES

[hearty otter]

Quite irritating that feature. I think the leadership if it happens, needs to be more earned and weighed against other factions

[nimble pond]

That's a hell of a broadside. If a row of cannonballs coming at you wasn't enough, a bunch of fireballs in-between those cannonballs surely is.

[pulsar root]

I would prefer not be the leader at all.

[livid ingot]

The cannons are actually clipped out on the actual card

[dim reef]

Technically you can only become the leader of like 4 guilds. Thieves, DB, College and Volkihar

[nimble pond]

And in the Iliac no less.
If they're going to do anything with ships, a game set in Hammerfell or High Rock would be the time. With the Bay in-between and the Abecean Sea being very active to the west. Both provinces are the only provinces that really have any significant kind of Navy. Besides the Imperial Navy & Dominion Navy, which the other provinces typically rely on one or the other.

[nimble pond]

Kind of a joke here, but I never noticed how much that mountain in the background looks like the center one in the trailer, lol 🤪 But I figure alot of mountains can lookalike.

[dim reef]

It's funny but nah. If Kurt's interview is correct the game by and large started actual development in 2023 itself. I doubt those mountains mean anything.

[pulsar root]

It was in production in that year and that info has been out for awhile.

On topic: I'm more concerned about ships being too much focus for ES6, not necessarily against it.

[nimble pond]

To be fair, wasn't the teaser trailer made way before 2023 or even significant development in the game itself? I know it was several years before Starfield development was finished.

[pulsar root]

Yes, that trailer came out during a lot of speculation that BGS was moving way from single player games. They put something out to sort of clarify themselves(Fallout 76 fall out pun intended)

[nimble pond]

I like to think they know better than to make ships the center. Even Starfield made ship-building optional. They might have like one or two quests dealing with sailing in the mainline quest, and probably with optional auto features.

[dim reef]

I'm pretty sure it was made to boost their purchase value for MS 😭

[nimble pond]

Maybe. Some things tend to have multiple reasons or truths.

[pulsar root]

The trailer was in 2017. MS bought Bethesda in 2020.

[dim reef]

Deals like that are made in advance.
It took MS 2 years to buy ActiBlizz

Also trailer was 2018 iirc?

[pulsar root]

2018 yes. I did a typo. Like I said a lot of the drama around back then was because of Fallout 76.

[nimble pond]

Not sure how this came up as no one really made such a claim. And all I said was all of you were making correct assertions, such as "mature content" existing in the game, but at the same time the overall game has this sort of gloss over it where it's more in the background. When I think of Skyrim, I don't remember it for it's mature content, not in the way you would say a horror game.

[junior kettle]

Nudity and ultra violence not being in Skyrim thus not making tes mature was literally the entire discussion

[nimble pond]

I never said that, but I remember you saying it.

In any case, I would agree with such a statement that just because a game doesn't have visual nudity or excessive gore, doesn't mean it's not mature?

[junior kettle]

You should scroll up and read the entire discussion before taking stuff out of context

It was a part of the discussion and yes a game can have no nudity or gore and still be mature

[strange abyss]

i remember the courier jumpscaring me while i was grinding levels, the music being really good, and ik it's been beaten to death over the past 14-15 years but its really weird how the dragonborn is the only guy capable of leading every guild in the whole province

[nimble pond]

Imo, it was you twisting up the words and taking things out of context, putting words in the other's mouth. But it's alright, I was just expressing my interpretation of the debate, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, no big deal. 🤷‍♂️

[nimble pond]

Not supposed to be & reality don't always handshake. The reality being an entire family (even those under the recommended age) playing a game say like GTA, as I brought up after I made that statement.
I think ratings were certainly taken more seriously in the past, (we've definitely changed in things like mannerisms over time) but modern-day, as long as it's not overly-explicit or grotesque, alot of it ends up fitting the family-friendly bill, regardless of given rating.
Anyway, my point being "rating" shouldn't be of much concern when the question was asked by another user "why are they afraid to include more gore and such in TES?" But to answer that question, I'd say really reasoning of it should be more about, does it fit here? Could there be a bit more blood splatter when smacking a mace to the face? Sure. It's not necessary or essential, but if I'm forced to have to choose between having it or not having it, then I'd say yes, it fits.
Now you want to talk about excessive explicit material that really was not necessary & over-the-top, let's talk about nudity in GoT, lol!

[junior kettle]

There are so many modern games without nudity or gore that aren't even close to family friendly lol take for instance Yakuza, sure it has some sexual themes but no gore or nudity and it's setting is definitely mature

One of the latest Digimon games has an entire side story around people having their minds wiped and being trafficked, you have a ton of other media that is definitely adult stories without gore or nudity. It's not a modern standards thing, it's a matter of opinion that misunderstands what mature means

[gloomy anchor]

Hey we are getting into topics not allowed on the discord. Let's move on please

[junior kettle]

Fair enough

[nimble pond]

Eye of the Beholder.

[feral viper]

Maturity is more than explicit content, IMO.

It also has to do with themes and writing..

Sapphire, in Skyrim, is the closest Bethesda has come to mature i. A long time

And even then, it was only lightly flirting with the idea of exploring a more mature concept. Never actually engaging in any real way

[nimble pond]

I felt the topic of maturity was misplaced in the discussion to begin with. I think it's a more what's appropriate / inappropriate for TES.

[nimble pond]

Anyway..
Nords are terrible dancers. Better off having a mop as a dance partner.

[night ember]

redguard rules

[eager remnant]

A Redguard was the first character I played, way back in Morrowind. Twenty-four years later I still remember that character fondly.

[last dew]

@feral viper Sorry to bring up the old topic. The Danes of Denmark were originally from the North Germanic Tribes of Scandanavia, so they came from Scandanavian lands and colonized to a land they call Denmark. And the Norse culture comes mainly from Scandinavian countries. So I conclude the Nords are based on both the Danes and Scandinavian cultures. Even Norse cultures as well.

Even the Danes spoke Proto-Norse which eventually evolved into the Old Norse language by the beginning of the Viking Age. They also were praticioners of Norse religion. So Danes are heavily connected to the Scandinavians by ancestry and shared cultural religion. Denmark is also considered part of Scandinavia, and the Danes did use Viking Ships and participate Viking raids such as raiding the British Isles for their conquest to make their own conquered country attempt to be called Danelaw. So that concludes that the Nords of Skyrim are inspired by and based on both Norse Scandinavians and Dannish culture.

[junior ruin]

new dev lead, new direction. Hence the sudden flourish of substantial changes

And not the usual lip service

I switched channels so I wouldn’t get warned for off topic

[primal olive]

i like Gelebor for maturity

||he's had time to understand things, processing what happened and how to feel and react||

[junior ruin]

@night pollen #elder-scrolls-general-chat message

[night pollen]

Oh yeah thanks yes

[feral viper]

Gelebor kinda flirts with maturity as well, but he doesn't really express any sort of trauma associated with what would have been a truely horrific experience.

He just rationalises it.

[dim reef]

He did have like 4000 years to think it through 😂

[feral viper]

Well, MAYBE.

Assuming Gelebor is even an elf.

[livid ingot]

Yeah, I'm still on the Auri-El avatar train

Gelebor is just too suspicious

They could have just made him essential, but you're not allowed to even attack him and he doesn't show up on spells like detect life

[night pollen]

I cant decide if i wanna play skyrim or OBR

[timid drum]

Skyrim duh

[hot basin]

It would be nice if in the next elder scrolls game you could have more than just one companion with you. And be able to conjure more than just one thing at a time. Obviously based on skill progression.

[pulsar root]

Skyrim has all the mods. OBR is much more limited.

nvm, of course they will.

[junior kettle]

Morrowind

The answer is always Morrowind

[feral viper]

Always Heroes of Might and Magic III

[junior kettle]

Nah, Dark Messiah

[feral viper]

I do dig the Ashan setting too.

Agrael/Raelag had some great lines in Heroes 5.

And I STILL want to know exactly what Kha-Beleth is...

[feral viper]

I think he's actually Boethiah having a laugh.

[acoustic widget]

Why don't mages use wands?

[astral hollow]

Some do, but some don't. Sometimes it's a preference and or the way they are taught by their mage teachers.

[nimble pond]

More importantly, why don't they pull bunnies out of their hats?

[junior kettle]

Wands look dumb mostly whereas staffs have a more powerful and intimidating factor. I don't feel powerful wielding a dumb lil stick but a huge staff? Yea that's cool. In Morrowind you even could attack with the staff as if it was a weapon on it's own instead of a way to just shoot lightning bolts, that needs to return so they can be multi-purpose weapons

[worldly cypress]

Overcompensation.

[feral viper]

Wanda may look dumb but they're incredibly useful enchanted tools because they're so small and concealable.

[nimble pond]

Yeah, they could be for like assassination spells/magic?

[feral viper]

Or utility, or any number of other things.

A Wand is basically a reusable Scroll. Small, compact, does what it says on the tin.

[tardy tiger]

If TES changes how you cast spells so your weapons can empower them then maybe wands can appear and staffs will finally be useful.

[glass marlin]

I don't think that's how Enchanting works.

[night pollen]

In continuing our discussion neaerly a week later, when would be the best time to buy the sub?

[feral viper]

Well, I mean, it's TES magic.

It works however they want it to work at the time.

[glass marlin]

True

I'm still waiting for my size magic ingame Bethesda. :V

[pulsar root]

In fairness Magic doesn't need to be overly complicated mess. For instance

/hottake I think while Enchanting an item should require materials... souls...I don't think that should be one of them. Hides behind tower shield 🛡️

[feral viper]

Not a hot take at all.

The use of Souls has always been on shaky ground with the wider lore community, both for it's weird place in the Lore and the clear ethical issues surrounding it.

Like, if Necromancy is illegal because of its potential abuses, Enchanting should be too

Part of the problem stems from the fact that we STILL don't even really know what Souls are in the setting. And every time we get new information, it just makes it more confused.

[nimble pond]

So there's a singing mudcrab, who's really a bard who got turned into a mudcrab by necromancy. Would be a fun quest to try to figure out how to get him back to his original form. In the meantime, he's charmed the other mudcrabs with his voice and they follow him as their king and have built a giant sand castle for him, aboveground & underground. Though a rogue mudcrab is moving to oust the bard mudcrab and kill him to take the throne, planning an intricate assassination plot with a few other mudcrabs he's turned.

[tardy tiger]

At this point lorewise there is a way to just completely ignore the Necromantic version of enchanting since the enchants themselves can be made without souls (ESO) and items recharge on their own (Morrowind),

[jade plover]

Why would it be illegal if they use animals for enchanting? Humans and elfs souls can be put only in black soul gemes which were illegal in oblivion, exactly because they mostly used by necromancers

[dim reef]

Eh. Depends on the soul used tbf. White souls are fine.

[hushed coyote]

My head cannon is that there is no actual difference between black and white souls. It was just some distinction made by the guy who invented them and the fact that “black” souls can’t go into regular soul gems was an inbuilt security mechanism to combat stealing people’s souls. That is why in my opinion the blind falmer are regular souls because they were not accounted for when the security measures were baked into the soul gems.

[dim reef]

Falmer going into white soul gems is just a gameplay thing because the game treats them as creatures than people. Same goes for giants

[feral viper]

Well, again, that's horribly confused.

Because per ESO, the Black and White distinction is entirely artificial. Spells are designed to block out selected demographics, it's not an inherent part of the souls themselves.

[dim reef]

That's just some guy's theory tho was it not? Cos' Azura's Star exists and it only being able to hold black souls after being corrupted is a thing

[feral viper]

Nah, that's Gallerion imposing regulation.

[livid ingot]

All undead, including ghosts, but excepting vampires, also are classified as White souls.

[dim reef]

So do we know for a fact the difference is artificial?

Cos' prior games have implied otherwise

[livid ingot]

Another instance of where the hard division of white and black souls - if it exists - is blatantly ignored

[dim reef]

Would be weird to randomly change it like that

[dim reef]

Vampires are likely a gameplay thing.
Same reason giants and falmer are seen as white souls

Cos' the game views them as people and creatures respectively

What they need to do is differentiate it properly

[livid ingot]

Well yes its all a gameplay thing. Same reason why dremora and golden saints for example are black souls while other powerful lesser daedra, like Aurorans and Seekers, have white souls

[dim reef]

Ye. They need to tag the soul types properly

[feral viper]

The whole thing is a mess

[livid ingot]

It's just why people are skeptical that a real lore division exists. Especially because the games don't exactly pretend, for example, that ghosts and Falmer technically have Black Souls

[dim reef]

Ghosts i think is understandable. Like how draugr are white souls as well

There is a clear division in lore because we have characters directly mention it. But the gameplay doesn't do a good job portraying the division

[feral viper]

We also have characters say there is no clear distinction

So either someone is wrong, or even Bethesda doesn't know

[jade plover]

Lore says sentient creatures have black souls, as i remember. In the game though, black souls are for npc's, white for creatures.
There are two versions why:

1. Devs just don't care to think about it.
2. Devs thought about it and decided that enchanting will be useless if you'll have to get rare black soul gems for almost every enemy in the game, since most of them are sentient

[livid ingot]

The nature of the soul is not knowable. Every wizard that has attempted it vanishes without a trace.
Beth doesn't know. 😅 Source: Souls, Black and White

[feral viper]

Yeah, that book has always irked me.

But they also clearly don't know how magic and spells work either. Because they constantly give contradictory information.

[feral viper]

The problem is... All animals are sentient to some degree.

[jade plover]

Can they talk and have any type of society?

Giants have society and can talk it seems.
Deers and rabbits can't

[feral viper]

That's not a critiera for sentience.

[feral viper]

Sentience is just a measure of self awareness. Even insects are sentient to some degree

[dim reef]

Yeah. I'd measure it based on sapience than sentience

[pulsar root]

I'm sure thats what people mean by sentience. They have human cognitive capabilities.

[feral viper]

Even if that was the case, Goblins, Falmer, Giants, Dreugh, Sload, Minotaurs, Lamia etc. would all be Black Souls

Lore wise I think the problem is resolvable, sure, but I'm tired of doing Bethesda's work for them there.

Mechanically, I think the solution is pretty easy.

Bring back Morrowind's Soul Value system.

Then it simply becomes a question of 'will it fit?'.

Humanoid souls get excluded from general gems by default simply because they're too large. Only Black Soul Gems have the capacity needed.

[dim reef]

I'd say it's better to tag them properly instead of judging value. Cos' if Azura's star or varla stones and the like come back that's gonna cause problems

Also from what i gather. MW straight up didn't allow you to trap humanoid souls did it?

Just flesh the distinction out properly and mark everyone appropriately. Shouldn't be too hard

[feral viper]

It did not,but that was because the game tracked them as actors, which had no presence in the system.

Characters like Vivec and Almalexia WERE trapable however, with only Azura's Star able to hold them. They were also classed as Monsters (Creatures?) in game.

But Morrowind also lacked Black Soul Gems entirely, so the distinction was basically made by their absence.

[dim reef]

Ye the soul and gem distinction was only introduced in Oblivion

[feral viper]

Coincidently, could Soul Trap Dagoths. But not Vampires. Because Vampires were Actors as well.

[dim reef]

Lol

[feral viper]

So, Morrowind's system wasn't perfectly implemented. But it's a much better foundation than the cladistic post-Oblivon system.

It also allows you to create specific outlier without having to create weird coding workarounds. For instance, differentiating between Karstaag and a regular Ice Giant.

[junior kettle]

The way I read black soul gems is the soul gems sold are tuned to not capture the souls of the 9 races because in ESO soul gems aren't defined by black or white souls and the mages guild has yet to secure their continent wide monopoly on all things magic

[nimble pond]

When we start in prison again for TESVI, if there is a huge riot, how about riot guards. Specialized heavy armor & also mages with anti-riot magic, such as silence, smoke, flash, maybe even some alchemy chems that act like tear gas.

[dim reef]

I hope we're in a shipwreck again

I'd love a good ship wreck setpiece. Water rushing in everywhere, people falling overboard, planks breaking apart

[feral viper]

Once upon a time I wrote a intro sequence which involved being on a Dominion prison ship that gets attacked by pirates... I wonder if I still have it backed up somewhere after the purge.

[eager remnant]

I was pretty fond of the Morrowind start to ESO, which involved a shipwreck, escape from enslavement, blowing up a slave ship and leaping into the water like Errol Flynn as the ship explodes. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Broken_Bonds

[pulsar root]

Something other then "You are a prisoner" Like a ship or just you arriving said province then the plot starts. that'd be better or the bold approach more then one start option but I don't know if Bethesda wants to do that but it would be bold.

Edit: Sorry if I sound whiny

[feral viper]

My man. Some of us were tempered by Ballowers. You're fine.

[dim reef]

Yeah. I doubt they'll drop the whole prisoner meta thing

But. I guess they could have you imprisoned later. Like say you start the prologue normally and then get captured

[pulsar root]

I wish they would drop it.

[nimble pond]

Could be both. While ago I suggested an "Alcatraz-like" Thalmor prison. After the riot and jailbreak, you of course only have one way back to the mainland, by ship. Assuming you survive the sea horrors lurking in the watery depths surrounding the prison itself. And then.. shipwrecked by some monster storm.

[somber prairie]

I really wish they would give us an update on TES VI. Like literally anything. At this point, the only proof that we have that they've even started working on the game is simply that Todd said so. Give us some development updates like the Skywind and Skyblivion teams have been doing. Literally just anything to prove it even exists

Im not asking for a full blown developer diary type video, but just something to keep the faith. Its been a difficult time staying hyped for some while waiting 15+ years...

[hushed coyote]

It is coming. I think they learnt that releasing nothing is sometimes better than something not up to standard

[feral viper]

Oh nooooo.

If they haven't learned that before, they certainly haven't learned that now.

[jade plover]

You are right, i used the wrong word. Sapience is more suitable

[worldly cypress]

All good, commonly conflated words. To the point of being synonymous often.

[feral viper]

Consciousness is another one that gets lumped in there.

[nimble pond]

Welp, I'd wager sailing season is on the nigh, even in TES world. https://xcancel.com/assassinscreed/status/2016531108486095252#m

I remember back around Skyrim's time, everything releasing was Dragons. Now it could be all high seas.

[feral viper]

I don't trust it. Not from Ubisoft.

They somehow managed to take near perfect sailing, and turn it into Skull and Bones.

[sage wharf]

In order for Bethesda’s ES6 to take the reins and title as the top rpg of its generation, like Oblivion and Skyrim once held, they’re going to have to out design themselves. The competition nowadays is much better than what existed back then, with Hogwarts legacy showing what’s possible when it comes to integrating magic into scenery and architecture in a very detailed open world, to God of War Ragnarok’s story, combat perk system and how the mythology it draws from can be seen in every part of its contrasting open world design, also take into account it has to include a brilliant story to draw players into wanting to explore the world and feel connected to their character(s). One area that previous Elder Scrolls games have always had an edge in is graphics / realism. The way you interact with items/characters/ the environment/ and the sheer amount of choices of how to build your characters skills and inventory load outs. Graphics wise other games have more than caught up, but when it comes to character customization and skills, That’s something that separates an elder Scrolls game from other rpgs, but with that said balancing all of that has been an issue in previous games and other games nowadays are getting it right because they usually aren’t balancing as much at once. Combine all those factors together, and its clear that having the goal of creating the best rpg is not a small task, and with it still being years away that bar I think will only continue to get higher.

[feral viper]

Other games have more than surpassed Bethesda in every way. Blown past them, really.

Gameplay, interaction, storytelling, graphics, worldbuilding... Bethesda is well behind the curve in every single aspect.

The only distinction Bethesda really has, is the fact that their games tend to do EVERYTHING. Most games pick one or two things to focus on, Bethesda throws the entire warehouse at the wall.

You can stand to not to anything well, when you offer a bit of everything. The buffet compensates for the mediocre cooking.

[pulsar root]

Temper your expectations, all I'm going to say.

[dim reef]

Quest design is still more or less across every western rpg and Bethesda tbf

But yeah. Presentation is something Bethesda severely lacks.

I think the first thing they need to improve upon is character animations. Their scripted sequences are laughably behind everything else because they barely try to make more than 2 or 3 dedicated animations

[feral viper]

My expectations are rock bottom

Even the Day Before exceeded my expectations.

I was sure that game wouldn't even get an alpha release.

[tardy tiger]

If the Empire or the Imperials turn up it can go even lower.

[feral viper]

Nah, I set my expectations at non-existence.

Until a game releases, at all, it's not real.

So even a crappy game exceeds my expectations.

[pulsar root]

I could name other things they do I can criticize but it should be noted that doesn't mean I don't enjoy their games. Cause I do.

[dim reef]

Ye there are other things but i feel like presentation should be one the most basic things an rpg should get right.
Cos' this isn't an isometric rpg relying on text, they should make proper use of the visual medium they chose to work with

[feral viper]

I mean, I can't name a single first person or third person RPG I would say has good animation or presentation outside of explicitly scripted cutscenes.

The format it's self doesn't lean very hard into that sort of thing.

[dim reef]

Yeah except problem is Bethesda can't even animate those specific scripted sequences right

Like the time break cutscene in Skyrim. It's entirely scripted with nothing dynamic yet they couldn't even bother making some unique animations for it

It's so stupid seeing Alduin just do a normal bite animation for 5 minutes and the Nords just tanking them willy nilly

Like I'm not asking for much but if even Obsidian of all people can make decent looking animations and cutscenes, Bethesda genuinely has no excuse

[jaunty bear]

Anyone play ESO? How’s it compare to Skyrim? Like I get they are an RPG and MMO so hard to compare but is ESO as good or better or what we thinking

[eager remnant]

This video is about Starfield but it applies equally to Elder Scrolls games. His point is similar to yours: that other games do certain things better than Bethesda's games but few, if any, attempt everything Bethesda attempts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8r9n-wUK1U

[feral viper]

Quantity has a quality all its own.

[feral viper]

Fair point.

[noble verge]

I liked that Starfield wasn't nearly as dark or bleak in tone as a lot of popular sci fi games out there right now.

[jade plover]

Not every aspect. There are still not many games with better open world than in skyrim and fallout 4. I'd say its only Zelda and Kingdom Come who has better worlds

[jade plover]

Depends on what you want from the game

[nimble pond]

Imo, the top 3: Story ..above all else, Environment, & NPCs. Everything else can come after. As for outdoing oneself, it comes to a point where you've already maxed out potential, at least in some areas, not all. So that's why I go with storytelling as being priority.

One thing I'd hope for is actually being able to fail the main quest [like for example, in Skyrim, the result would have been randomly encountring Alduin more often devouring the people and attacking cities]. Because 90% of the time, I prefer roaming and stalking out in the wilds anyway, living in some beautiful shelter out in nature, be it a cave, treetop, fallen tree, camp, waterfall, underground, grotto, mountain, igloo. Only really ever visit the cities to pillage and burn them. People talk too much 😅. But yeah, that'd be cool too, being able to single-handedly burn and destroy every single city in the game down to the ground. I would LOVE that kind of player FREEDOM! Always wanted building destruction in cities, using things like magic to blow a hole in the side of a building or completely collapse a building on top of nearby citizens. Visiting the desecrated cities afterwards over time, they could be filled with bandits and wildlife.

[nimble pond]

Last thought on my mind, unarmed combat needs to include your LEGS, not just your hands. Like at least a kick. And not just in TES, but in Fallout too, something that basic as a kick..

[feral viper]

In AAA definitely. But the AAA market is the most dystopian capitalist hellscape there is, in this general dystopian capitalist hellscape.

Open worlds in the indie scene are great. Even the procedurally generated ones.

[nimble pond]

Am curious to see what is unleashed in Starfield v2.0 and how some of it could carry over to TES6?

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/ron-swanson-parks-and-rec-annoyed-gif-21561340

[nimble pond]

Welp, better response than at other times. A+ for effort

[junior kettle]

There's a lot in Starfield that should be in TES6, like being able to solve situations in quests with speech, more branching paths, different solutions and paths for dungeons, no "this is x archetype faction"

Starfield has a lot of good ideas that can easily be added into TES6

[eager remnant]

Plus it has the most robust roleplaying character creation since Daggerfall.

[junior kettle]

That as well, I used to say classes did nothing but if they add in speech options like Starfield did that'd rule, same with traits

Plus the jetpack feature can be used to bring back levitation

[pulsar root]

The character backrounds is a solid idea.

[stable arch]

Agreed

I don’t believe its possible for ES to be the power house like it was back in the day

Just too many games flying by while we wait 15 years for a product that’s hopefully on the same level

[pulsar root]

I more meant you can't have high expectations of something we don't have any information on aside from typical bethesda formula(One big world space, locales everywhere thats unique and handcrafted and all the little stuff you can pick up etc etc).

Can't really get too hype for a story we don't know about.

[dim reef]

Bruce is really dropping actual bombs in that recent interview of his. People are legit saying they're glad he left Bethesda lol 😭