#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 36 of 1

pulsar root
#

Open classes are better then fixed ones.

dim reef
#

Have both i say. Custom is essentially open. Pick and mix what you want while fixed is.. well.. fixed

feral viper
#

Well Classes are a whole other discussion. I just use the old Class System as an example of how to make Races better, mechanically.

noble verge
#

For me, an ideal race system would be an expansion of the race-origin system of Oblivion Remastered, where in addition to possible stat or skill bonuses, origins/subraces could also give unique abilities.

#

Have options like "Reachman" for Bretons, "Rim-Man" for Imperials, and to really go the extra mile, have distinct Khajiit subraces.

#

For classes, I prefer the Dark Souls system where class determines starting stats, equipment, and some unique dialogue, but not restricting or steering character progression going forward.

radiant moss
noble verge
#

But just imagine the potential of playing an Alfiq

nimble pond
#

Be Rob Schneider and you can play as anything you want.

nimble pond
#

If we goto Hammerfell next game, do you think we'll learn what happened with Saadia (forgot how it's spelled) and more information about that whole situation? I figure she must have family in Hammerfell at least.

dim reef
#

I think explaining what happened will ruin the mystery of that quest. It worked because both sides are left somewhat unclear

pulsar root
#

"She got killed during the Skyrim Civil War"

🤷🏻‍♂️

I think its fair to address a character even if they don't use the character again

tardy tiger
#

Died when Paarthurnax makes Skyrim collapse into Blackreach.

noble verge
#

I think it'd be a little silly to keep the player in the dark about what happened in Taneth in a Hammerfell game.

#

Yeah it'd lessen the ambiguity of the Skyrim quest but tiptoeing around it in Hammerfell would be worse.

tardy tiger
#

Depends on the worldbuilding tbh. Unless it's important to quests it might just be ignored.

feral viper
#

Taneth is also one of the southern cities of Hammerfell. It's entirely possible there just won't be much of it left, it will already be reoccupied, or those who would have known will already be dead by the time a game takes place.

dim reef
#

Plus i don't think you need to reveal the truth about that quest to really go into detail about the state of the resistance. So you can keep the ambiguity of that quest without any major consequences

#

I know ambiguity can be a bit goofy at times especially when major story events are concerned but in this particular case i don't think it's necessary to be clear

feral viper
#

The best way to approach the ambiguity, would be to have mentions of Thalmor putting hits out on political opponents, AND mention that there was a traitor who let the Dominion in during the war.

dim reef
#

Yeah. That's a good way to do it

feral viper
#

Just don't confirm which she was, or whether or not Kematu was even Alik'r

#

You could drive it further by highlighting how some Alik'r tribes will even work for the Dominion of the pay is high enough.

pulsar root
#

Better then never addressing it. Not the way I'd do it but /shrug

noble verge
#

Saadia's story never made any sense to me. If the Thalmor were after her, why would she flee to Skyrim under a false identity, where unlike Hammerfell, the Justiciars could walk right past the guards, arrest her, and not worry about any diplomatic consequences for disappearing a noble of Hammerfell?

#

It'd be like if they hired the Cyrodiil Fighters Guild chapter to hunt down Esbern rather than doing it themselves.

livid ingot
feral viper
#

Saadia's story has more holes in it than the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood

dim reef
#

Saadia is clearly lying but Kematu definitely isn't telling the whole story either

pulsar root
#

Even worse when the guy that gets caught in the keep is now(At least according to him) just abandoned. Guess those mercenaries are little better then thugs.

noble verge
#

What are they supposed to do? Break him out and get into even more trouble with the locals?

dim reef
#

His fine is just 100 gold though. It's them who caused trouble too, surely that's not too big a price

#

Also, the guy just outright says knowing and trying to find Kematu is a deathwish.
Why would trying to contact him be a death wish, does he actively want people to be uncooperative and fear them?

pulsar root
#

At worst they'd have to wait a few days to get the gold if it came down to it. Nothing to do with breaking out or anything but... its not a good look on Tematu if he barely gives a crap about his own men.

And what Serana Simp said, I forgot about that(I really need to do a playthrough again)

noble verge
#

It's not like he's going to be executed- if it weren't for the fact that TES doesn't account for imprisonment time for NPCs, he'd languish in a cell for a week or two then go home because he's unfit to be an Alik'r.

dim reef
#

That's fine but it still doesn't explain why trying to find Kematu is considered a deathwish

noble verge
#

Either he assumes you won't make it through the bandits, or he assumes that since you're going straight for Kematu instead of giving info to his subordinates in Rorikstead, it means you're going to try and kill him.

dim reef
#

That's not what he says though. He says simply knowing his name means death

#

Seems a bit counter intuitive to alienate people like that when you're trying to find someone no?

noble verge
#

Because as far as he knows, there's no reason to seek out Kematu in his hideout directly except to try and kill him.

dim reef
#

That could be it. But it's left vague and that's why i think Kematu isn't telling the entire story himself.

#

Both sides are biased in their own way and i do love that quest for that

#

It's like the entire Whiterun dev team collectively locked in for that one quest and absolutely knocked it out of the park

tardy tiger
slow loom
#

Bethesda developers are almost all expected to make at least one quest each. It's more likely it was one or two developers who came up with it.

tardy tiger
#

At least with Saadia the quest is built up with both stories could be lies. It's just Saadia tells the worst lie.

tardy atlas
#

I can still remember how pissed off people were at the time with my solution to the quest, which was to rat her out, murder the people who tried to arrest her after taking the reward, then calming her and taking the reward for having killed them.

#

The story itself was largely incidental since it had no impact in Skyrim itself other than the presence of an NPC or not

#

But Skyrim itself doesn't really benefit from the presence of an additional barmaid, and her war crimes in hammerfell assuming they existed at all are pointless to what you're currently doing

#

There is a story being told, but that story is not yours nor is it any of your friends, it's just some Travelers tale from a far off land

#

I can think of multiple solutions to adding proper stakes to this, the issue is it would balloon the quest beyond the scope and scale that Bethesda was willing to put into it.

#

For most players it's is she in the right? And for me it's who cares if she's in the right?

slow loom
#

That is a problem with a lot of Bethesda quests. There is almost no follow through. They kind of just end and that's it, with npcs often disappearing from the world after the quests completion.

#

Say with a quest where you save a bunch of prisoners and then later you find them back in town with a little token of appreciation. Then maybe it leads into another quest about how their home was seized and you have to try get it back. It's a quest that you might miss but adds progression to random events that usually mean nothing.

tardy atlas
#

I don't mind too much when it's something that is localized inside Skyrim and informs the culture or politics of skyrim. But this is a hypothetical with no real answer about a place you don't interface with.

#

Because their accounts are unreliable to one another you can't even say that this informs the state of hammerfell, because they could both be lying since one of them has to be lying.

#

This works really well when you're in Morrowind and you can see the institutions of power that are opposed to one another, and that informs the world building.

#

But these are just individuals far away from home

slow loom
#

It does lead to a state of the player not caring because they can never know if they chose correctly.

tardy atlas
#

It reminds me of the replicated man in Fallout 3 which oddly enough is supposed to be a tie-in to Fallout 4 but misrepresents Fallout 4's Institute as being much more open and interesting than it ended up being

#

I'm not saying it's meaningful I'm just saying that Bethesda has done this before

slow loom
#

It is one of the few quests that has some intrigue and a conclusion without too much direct sequel bait. I wonder if it was always intended to be followed up in the next game or more of a case of what do we actually have that isn't Brotherhood.

#

If we use the logic that Bethesda leaves some clues as to what the next game might be about then I feel like there is nothing left.

dim reef
pulsar root
#

At the time of doing it for the first time I didn't have reason to distrust any of them because well 2011(Or 2012, don't remember when I first bought Skyrim) I didn't have a full grasp of the game's backstory, now I do.

feral viper
#

Quests like this are clearly intended to create the feel of a wider world beyond the borders of the current region.

Though they tend to be so isolated from anything else that they end up just feeling out of place.

dim reef
#

It felt like a surprisingly decent quest than the usual "go fetch my sword from a random dungeon" stuff you get at Whiterun. I get it is meant to essentially be the Tutorial town but still

quick coral
#

Howdy

minor dew
#

I always thought night eye could be improved cause they always see you with candlelight, anyone else thought of this

feral viper
#

Absolutely. The way Night Eye works just isn't visually that good, and is actually kinda... Painful to many people.

timid drum
#

Fully agree, but imo its most useful when playing on survival and don't want torches taking up carry weight

feral viper
#

Standard IR camera modes cause eye strain and in about 25% of people can trigger migraines. So it's an inherently iffy approach to something.

Similarly, straight gamma correction to make the area brighter washes things out, is bad for the monitor, and is really just something you can do manually at any time.

#

The best 'night vision' approach I've seen was Halo ODST, which highlighted model outlines, creating sort of a profile trace. It looked great, it worked great, and it made it so dark environments still felt dark.

timid drum
#

Fair point

feral viper
#

Of course, it's all basically useless in a Bethesda game, because they have ambient lighting everywhere.

I was so excited in that first cavern in Starfield, with how dark it was.

And then, like... The only other places that are that dark are random ass caves that have a few mineral nodes in them, and are basically not even worth exploring..

timid drum
#

Lol yeah, maybe one day we'll get what we want

#

Or just have some mods fix the issue

feral viper
#

I did use an ENB for Skyrim that changed its lighting and fog effects, and it led to some of the most cinematic moments I've ever had in a Bethesda game.

#

Low light and heavy interior fog turns Draugr tombs into a wholly different experience.

timid drum
#

Oo yeah

minor dew
feral viper
#

I do not work for Bethesda, no.

#

And given my track record around here, I doubt I would be welcome.

#

Best I can hope for is that they steal some of my ideas and never give me credit.

A worthy sacrifice of fame if it means a better end product.

dim reef
#

I've been practicing writing quite a lot. Maybe in a couple years I'll be good enough to show something worthwhile and join them.

#

hello?

feral viper
#

Salve.

dim reef
#

Ya know, people joke about the cities in ES being small but i always found the "farms" way more comical. Nazeem's farm legit has like 7 wheat plants and 1 cow 😭

feral viper
#

Look, the economy has been in a slump ever since the war. The man's doing what he can.

tardy tiger
feral viper
#

Alchemy on the whole should change. Because it's really not alchemy.

dim reef
dim reef
pulsar root
#

"Hey you can't take my plants"

feral viper
#

Chemistry Benches, and really most crafting since Fallout 4, also doesn't really fit.

It's just standard recipe formats. Which is functional, but also rather... Cardboard flavoured.

dim reef
#

It is still miles ahead of the "alchemy" in ES atleast.
I really like how you can mix chems in the Fallout games. Just mix a buffout with mentats or jet with psycho.

#

Also the different nuka cola flavors. They really need to let us mix and match alcohols in ES6

#

I'm gonna mix Colovian Brandy with Argonian ale

feral viper
#

Heresy.

dim reef
feral viper
#

Beer and Brandy is a crime against taste.

dim reef
#

What are they gonna do? Make me pay the fine?

feral viper
wide garnet
#

@dim reef You just had to push your luck, didn’t you?

nimble pond
#

Now you've done and gone made planet orange of the orange people

wide garnet
umbral frigate
#

They bring back the vibrant colors yet ?

nimble pond
#

Hm. Whenever the Second Great War arises, I hope there's a small fleet of Numidiums on the battlefield for maximum destruction. Sorta.. Mechwarrior meets TES. Bonus points if they pick up people and rip them in half.

#

And perhaps if not all the dragons were slain and in other provinces (just not sighted nearly as often as in Skyrim), then maybe some could have been captured and trained, made into aerial bombers, dropping boulders on crowds of armies below.

#

And underwater Leviathan creatures could be ship-killers. Not only possessing physical power from their colossal size, but also natural inner magic power, godzilla-like beam. Like nuclear submarines.

#

A necromancer army would be pretty nice too. Thousands and thousands of skeletons lined up in rows under the command of a Necromancer general. After you slay them, they just keep re-animating themselves. Infinite army.

nimble pond
#

Super sonic dwemer constructs, with a blast powerful enough to disengrate anything into pieces, in their direct line of fire.

feral viper
#

Give me Steam Tanks. Breton ingenuity, Redguard gunnery, and Imperial discipline, combined to create a new weapon .

slow loom
#

They should make TES rts game for the soul fact that they would have to work out how warfare works.

feral viper
#

Hahah, it'd just be Warcraft. Hordes of individual units swarming at eachother.

slow loom
#

I know but it would force them to flesh out the factions.

#

It would be closer to Age of Empires meets Warcraft imo.

feral viper
#

AoE at least had units form into blocks. I'm not so confident in Bethesda's ability to RTS that they could handle that.

slow loom
#

Then you could have some Age of Mythology where you choose a god and get powers. Such as being able to summon an Oblivion gate as a teleporter for units.

feral viper
#

Just give the IP to Creative Assembly, and let them do their thing..

slow loom
#

Pretty much.

#

It would most likely be a bad idea in this day and age where RTS games aren't as popular. If they were going to do it they should've already done it.

celest sun
#

At The Game Awards this year I can 100% see Bethesda rolling up being like "yadd yadda Fallout season 2 yadda yadda Starfield DLC"

"Yadda yadda Elder Scrolls..."

Crowd gets hyped

And it's just Skyrim for Switch 2

nimble pond
feral viper
#

I personally want them to hold off on the Thalmor.

celest sun
#

So anyone here but me expecting some ES6 news at TGA this year?

pulsar root
#

no

dim reef
#

Starfield was announced an entire year before it's original release date so it's possible

#

But i don't think it'll happen, it's possible but unlikely

dim reef
celest sun
#

I mean it's gotta release relatively soon. There was one interview that Todd did where he pretty much implied that ES6 and Fallout 5 will release before he retires

dim reef
#

Well that's worse because he's not going to retire

celest sun
#

Of course he will lmao. He isn't immortal

dim reef
#

He won't. He said so himself

celest sun
#

When?

nimble pond
#

Weapon concepts:

Magnet bow and/or magnetic arrows/crossbolts/projectiles.

Shields capable of firing spells or physical projectiles. Maybe a retractable claw that grabs an opponent and forcefully pulls their face bashed right into your shield. Or again, maybe a magnetic effect that can do something similar when you turn it on.

Option of actually being able to equip another magic spell to rings so you can fire 3 spells at one time. If allowing to wear 2 rings (one on each hand), than 4 spells.

dim reef
nimble pond
#

Kind of similar to things like how soul trap works, but say you strike an enemy with (we'll call it generic name for now) "golden touch," and you deliver the finishing blow before the effect wears off. When they die, their entire body turns into solid gold for you to mine with a pickaxe. Could have other "ore type" spells included. Or other wacky options, like they turn into a pile of coins or assorted jewels.
If you're wanting a change from the usual loot off dead bodies..

dim reef
#

If he's going to launch them before retirement that might as well mean forever

celest sun
#

Ok the interview I was referencing, he said "...if I do the math, I am not getting any younger, how long do people plan on playing Elder Scrolls for? That may be the last one I do, I don't know (The Last Elder Scrolls?) The last Elder Scrolls, yes, yes, I don't know"

nimble pond
#

Since they already added staves, bring in wands for witches.

And bard build/class could work. If they basically use similar spell "effects" from across all the schools (illusion like calming effect, hypnosis, paralyze. Destruction like causing lightning, conjuration - summoning, etc.) Just with instruments/voice instead. Could have different bardic schools?

dim reef
#

Or he lied about getting older and is actually immortal

nimble pond
#

And lastly, a "boomerang" effect enchantment for melee weapons. We already got hammers, let me make Mjölnir..

dim reef
#

Iirc you can do that in DA: Veilguard with your shield and it was quite fun

#

Felt like medieval Captain America

celest sun
nimble pond
nimble pond
strange trail
#

The series can’t end without us knowing the civil war victor

raven helm
#

Yall act like elder scrolls 6 is ever coming

#

GTA 6 will come out before elder scrolls 6 and Skyrim has been out longer than gta 5 😂 that’s the crazy part

celest sun
raven helm
pulsar root
#

Its coming, has nothing to do with being optmistic

strange trail
#

Idk why fallout gets a film adaptation and elder scrolls doesn’t

celest sun
#

Would an ES show even work?

strange trail
#

Sure it would, with how extensive the lore is

#

Numerous possibilities to base the plot around

#

First era, merethic era even, Tamriel vs Rhe Sloads, the Nords expedition from atmora

celest sun
#

Yes but you know that an ES show would just be based on or adapted from Skyrim, because that's the only one a majority of the gaming world knows or even cares about in 2025

strange trail
#

Three banners war, you name it

nimble pond
strange trail
#

True but Bethesda tried to do everything in their power to avoid new Vegas lore in the show

pulsar root
#

Until S2. But thats off topic

strange trail
#

And look at how that turned out, everyone wanted more new Vegas

#

And that games what? 14 years old?

#

Probably older now

#

Even if they did Skyrim as the set piece there’s still plenty of lore aside from the dragon crisis

nimble pond
strange trail
#

They could do it in the style they do for the yearly ESO cinematics

#

Do the love death and robots or Secret Level approach where every episode is a different conflict somewhere different on Tamriel

celest sun
dim reef
dim reef
celest sun
nimble pond
#

TESVI, 2027-28 is my guess

dim reef
celest sun
#

New Vegas was also a spinoff, so

dim reef
#

No it wasn't

#

It's pretty much a direct sequel to the prior west coast games

dim reef
pulsar root
#

Do not expect anything at the end of the year(Details that is). Maybe next year

dim reef
#

It'll be another "we are hard at work" post

nimble pond
#

Yea, I think if they drop anything else this early about TESVI, it would probably be very short and vague. But, I'm not expecting anything this early.

slow loom
#

We know Bethesda likes to wait till the last minute before they shadow drop or announce their games.

#

I just don't see the point of them announcing it just to hype us up and make us wait two years. It also puts a deadline for when the game will release whether it's in a good state or not.

dim reef
#

Not always. Which is why i keep bringing up Starfield's trailer which was released an entire year before it's initial launch date (before it got delayed)

#

Chances are likely we'll get a trailer next year but that's it

livid ingot
#

Skyrim got its first teaser app. 11 months before the game released, and the first trailer a month or two later iirc?

#

But I never expected them to announce TES VI so far in advance of its expected release, or for them to totally shadowdrop Oblivion remaster

#

So I really have no clue what to expect from them anymore

feral viper
feral viper
raven helm
raven helm
#

Ok 7 years ago

feral viper
dim reef
raven helm
#

Bruh one guy on the tes 6 teaser said this is like releasing a teaser for morrowind in 1985

raven helm
dim reef
#

No dlcs either

raven helm
# dim reef One game in 10 years

I mean hasn’t bethesdas only game since Skyrim been fallout 4 unless you count the ones that other studios did that Bethesda just stuck their name on

#

Wait fallout 76 right

dim reef
#

Bethesda has made FO4, 76, Starfield + all their dlcs in 10 years

raven helm
#

Oh starfield I tried to forget abt that

dim reef
#

Their games may not always hit but atleast they're still trying to make them. God knows if we'll ever get another R* game after 6 launches

raven helm
#

Ngl fo76 and starfield kind of killed bethesdas rep

feral viper
dim reef
#

People said 76 killed Bethesda's rep and Starfield still made millions

feral viper
#

Only good cowboy game was Stranger's Wrath. And it was mediocre, up until it transitions into a Native American EcoTerrorist game.

#

At which point it got awesome.

dim reef
#

And immediately after Starfield, the Oblivion remaster did phenomenal

#

Bethesda's star power is simply way too high for one or two misfires to tank them

raven helm
feral viper
#

Somehow, they continue to succeed despite their problems.

raven helm
#

Same thing people do with fallout new Vegas

dim reef
#

It doesn't matter what people say which is the thing. They'll do well no matter what.
Also the remaster was both them and Virtuous

feral viper
#

People praise New Vegas undeservedly because of its pedigree. It's not a good game, and never has been.

So all the better that people don't associate it with Bethesda.

raven helm
#

I like new Vegas 😂

celest sun
feral viper
#

The less I say about New Vegas, the less the Mods get angry with me.

So I will say no more.

slow loom
feral viper
#

New Vegas is a side topic and not a Bethesda game, and not within the scope of this discord. So I won't rip open one of the many new-ones i've already torn into it.

#

Bethesda, on the other hand, is a more... Complicated topic..

stark flower
#

Let's stay respectful please, no name calling.

feral viper
#

I think they're writing is mediocre at best, their game design haphazard, and their ability to execute on ideas tenuous in a good day.

That said... There is something about Bethesda that, simply put, no one else does.

raven helm
#

The courier is the most badass fallout main character

feral viper
#

Their worldspaces are phenomenal, their ability to make outright conflicting systems function is nothing short of sorcery, and they are one of the few studios in the industry that actively tries to innovate with every game.

pulsar root
feral viper
#

More and more, I don't think Bethesda's worlds are any good.

But their GAMES are something else entirely.

#

And I've said it many times before, I think they have the pieces to make something truly revolutionary. They just need to put them together in the right way.

slow loom
feral viper
#

They actually haven't. But the way they've presented things makes it seem that way.

raven helm
#

Bro just has L take after L take

#

Bro is Consistent with his L takes

feral viper
#

Which is why I criticise their execution.

Skyrim's Perks allow for orders of magnitudes more end results. It's magic systems allows for far more complex spell dynamics.

Fallout 4s dialogue system allowed for the seamless integration of conversation with other gameplay dynamics. It's equipment modularity allowed for far more equipment diversity than we have ever had in any RPG ever.

Starfield's traits were, quite frankly, the best basis for a character building system we've had since Daggerfall. And it's Ship Building was something that others are literally now imitating.

But it's delivery of all these things was haphazard, clunky, even outright sloppy.

raven helm
#

Jeez

feral viper
#

The potential is all there. They have the components (most of them, anyway) they just don't use them well.

raven helm
#

I like the thing in fallout 4 where your follower responds to your dialogue options

slow loom
#

I'll agree that they do innovate in some areas but often at the cost of simplifying others. Being able to walk out of a conversation just to put on charisma clothes and then pass the check. While cool it also takes away any stakes in a conversation.

feral viper
#

That's not a simplification though. It's a poor execution.

slow loom
#

They deleted spell making but you commend them for making better spells. They deleted spells out right from the game in Skyrim.

raven helm
#

I wish they would bring back athletics and acrobatics in TES 6

raven helm
feral viper
#

Again, not a simplification, it's poor execution.

When you put in a formula that allows for more permutations, and then use it to generate FEWER outcomes, your not simplifying it.

You're just not using it well.

raven helm
feral viper
#

Magic in TES has has always been pretty garbage though, so it's more of a sidegtsde.

raven helm
#

The creation club elemental blasts spells is the only good destruction spells late game

raven helm
feral viper
#

Already here, I am.

raven helm
feral viper
#

I can criticise my favourite TES game too.

raven helm
#

Morrowind is my least favorite

slow loom
dim reef
#

My take about magic is it needs more spectacle

raven helm
#

It needs to be viable late game imo. Like you can make swords op powerful but spells are capped

dim reef
#

When melee finishers have your DB grab someone by the face and shove their entire sword down their throat.
It feels rather underwhelming that magic in comparison just makes people ragdoll.

slow loom
#

I give them two points. One for fleshing out the crafting system massively in Fallout that existed in New Vegas. And the ship building.

dim reef
#

It needs more vfx, more visual flair, better sound design etc.

raven helm
#

You might stab him through the front of the chest with you behind him 🤷🏻‍♂️

dim reef
#

I mean that's just being disrespectful towards the enemy. It's not always about being practical

#

Gotta play with them before finishing them off

#

Like I really love the one where you just grab someone and repeatedly bash their head with your own

#

Is it sensible? No but but it's fun as heck

raven helm
nimble pond
feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

And to their credit, Bethesda HAS improved. From the lowpoint of Oblivion, they've improved in basically every aspect.

Still not great, of course. But progress is progress.

pulsar root
slow loom
dim reef
#

It didn't scrap it per say. It improved the actual dialogue, things still happen in real time

#

The world doesn't randomly pause when you're in conversation

slow loom
#

I mean the way dialogue is displayed.

dim reef
#

That's because the ui in 4 was terrible. 4 dialogues every convo no matter the situation

slow loom
#

exactly my point

dim reef
#

They wanted to copy Bioware's dialogue wheel except they forgot they can actually display more or less than 4 dialogues at a time

#

Maybe it was something thematic. Fallout 4. 4 dialogues at a time

feral viper
slow loom
#

It completely robbed you of having a conversation. It was just yes, no, maybe, sarcastic. It was dumbed down to an incredible degree.

pulsar root
dim reef
#

Although i have no idea why they went back to face zooms

nimble pond
feral viper
#

Let me be very clear. None of the problems with FO4s dialogue had to do with the SYSTEM. Even if they had kept the 4 option limitation (not actually a mechanical limitation but an artistic one) their WRITING choice was the main problem.

feral viper
dim reef
#

Normally a situation like this only requires 2 dialogues but now it needs 4

feral viper
#

Again, that's not a mechanical problem. That was an artistic problem with creating a single dialogue card and using it for everything. Mandating that you needed to fill all 4 slots to make it work.

strange trail
dim reef
feral viper
#

FO4 really used its own system poorly. Like, hilariously poorly.

Even worse than Starfield's shipbuilder not having the ability to place doors, poorly.

slow loom
#

We are talking in circles with people with too much emotion over logic.

dim reef
#

Who even needs doors anyway

strange trail
#

Fallout 4 isn’t the same without sim settlements

dim reef
#

Real Spacefarers just teleport

feral viper
#

Become Machine.

dim reef
#

Become Dwemer

#

i.e non existent

slow loom
#

I usually try to review a game twice. Once is how i felt and enjoyed it. The other is how good it was overall and if i think others would like it.

dim reef
#

I do hope they have more tavern songs in ES6

#

DATV kind of dissapointed me with the severe lack of tavern songs. All of them are reused from DAI. There's only like 1 new song

nimble pond
#

I really just want the option of throwing tomatoes and cabbages at bards in general.

dim reef
#

You should be able to become a bard yourself. Properly that is, not whatever the heck it was in Skyrim

#

76 has playable musical instruments. Expand on that

slow loom
#

I mean they could put petting animals but those mechanics often end up being fluff. That waste time fleshing out the mechanics people engage with for most of the game.

dim reef
#

You could already pet dogs in 4 (one time) and 76 so it's already there somewhat

slow loom
#

In that context it made sense because you were meeting and forming a bond with your only dog in the game.

nimble pond
dim reef
#

Yeah but they could just have a dog companion then. That would warrant some animations

#

Speaking of companions, that's one area they've consistently improved each game

#

I'm excited to see what they cook up in that part atleast

slow loom
dim reef
#

Well Bioware showed NV how to do it right first

#

Every rpg mechanic came from one game or the other

slow loom
#

Im talking about the same franchise you are not.

dim reef
#

I mentioned Starfield as well

#

So i wasn't talking about just one franchise. Also the roots of 4's companions existed in Skyrim with Serana

nimble pond
dim reef
#

Serana is essentially the ancestor that lead to future additions in 4, Starfield and likely ES6 as well

slow loom
dim reef
#

No. I mean the companion system as a whole. Situation reactions, location reactions, individual enemy reactions, sandboxing and idly reacting with the environment etc.

#

The idle sandboxing especially was just copy pasted from her across future games

slow loom
#

Maybe you are right. It was easier for them to put a lot of effort into her since she was such a major part of the dlc.

dim reef
#

Yes and she's very much what lead to Bethesda's future companions. They obviously took inspiration from other things as well like the Bioware style affinity system and what not but she laid the groundwork future games expanded upon.

slow loom
#

New Vegas does have specific location dialogue, conversation choices and events that prompt companions to share their thoughts or start a quest.

dim reef
#

Only Cass has location dialogue in NV. Others only have specific reactions that start their quest

#

Cass has the most reactivity of them all and she has the most dialogue in the entire game

slow loom
#

Veronica supposidly also has it. Without looking it up its hard to say anything conclusive here as its pretty sparse.

dim reef
#

Nope. She only has specific reactions that start her quest

#

And only in select locations like fiend territory or ncr areas (since that's tied to her quest)

slow loom
#

Aka the beginnings of the system. Limited because of the number of companions and short developer time.

dim reef
#

In fact it was so much some people actually complained about Cass's reactivity so they added a patch that made her quiet (cowards, thankfully mods exist)

#

But anyway. They clearly served as inspiration for Bethesda too. They added more reactivity to their companions

tardy tiger
# raven helm The vanilla spells sucks in Skyrim

I find Skyrims issues with magic is balance. Game wise it really lacks compared to melee and ranged options since they can be buffed with smithing and magic lacks any sort of buff from enchants or crafting.

Most I think enchanting does it make spells cheaper.

slow loom
feral viper
#

Discord, why is THAT the first line you show me when I come back?

slow loom
feral viper
#

Fallout 3, any day.

#

I would sooner stop playing video games entirely, than play New Vegas again.

slow loom
#

Well then you like a more linear experience and thats fine. You could also watch a movie to get a similar experience.

feral viper
#

Nope. That's not the problem at all.

Actually explaining my position gets me in trouble around here for harassment, so I'll leave it at that.

#

More on topic, in a general sense, Bethesda's companions have been improving. I think Starfield in particular shows why focus is better than casting too wide a net.

Though I also think that the games are becoming too dependent on HAVING a companion.

slow loom
#

I do feel like the difficulty goes out the window once you get a companion.

feral viper
#

Yeah, it's hard to balance for. Either everything becomes too easy, or having the companion becomes mandatory.

#

In party games it's easier to work, because you can design your encounters around party size.

But TES doesn't quite work that way.

slow loom
#

That why you need companions that are killable like a particular game on hardcore lol.

feral viper
#

Only if they're replaceable, like on Diablo.

slow loom
#

It is annoying having to reload a save because one died.

dim reef
#

Killable companions are a nice idea but in most cases it's their janky ai that gets them killed which ruins the whole thing

#

If they're only killable during story events that's cool. But dear god don't make them killable in gameplay

slow loom
#

That would lead to player confusion and situational mechanics and rules.

dim reef
#

It's already been done before. Bethesda themselves have done it. Starfield and FO4 both have killable companions during specific story events

#

Especially Starfield, I was actually surprised they had the guts to tie a companion to the story and actually kill them.

#

Reminds me of Virmire in ME1

slow loom
#

If it's tied into the actual story then thats a little different. Mostly because the player is made aware of the stakes.

dim reef
#

Yes. That's how it should be done.

#

Don't make them killable in gameplay. That just adds to annoyance.

slow loom
#

It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when games have situational mechanics and rules. Like a stealth game taking away your weapons in certain areas for instance.

#

But say in NV when you enter a casino and they take your weapons that makes sense.

dim reef
#

You need to stop bringing up NV. Terical's barely holding the urge to start a war.

pulsar root
crude solstice
sacred topaz
feral viper
dim reef
#

He must like Metal Gear Solid's line then

feral viper
#

Dunno, it familiar with it, and I don't think it ever came up.

feral viper
#

And those guys are notoriously anti-fun anti-war.

feral viper
#

Speaking of things The Hague would be against... Slavery tech rush civic in Stellaris soon. Is it time for Aperture Science to conquer the galaxy?

#

Anyway, more to my earlier points...

I think the only puzzle piece that Bethesda does not have, at least in some capacity, is combat. Combat in their games is just... Not good.

#

Everything else is just about using the tools they already have to their utmost.

Combat? That can't even really he considered a tool anymore. It's a squeaky mallett someone's kid left in the toolbox.

dim reef
#

I like their combat

#

(Minus the magic combat)

feral viper
#

It's too simple.

There's no counter play, no tactics, no strategy.

Everything does the same type of damage, meaning what weapons you use are basically just cosmetic choices.

Maneuverability options were outdated 20 years ago.

#

It's basically 'Whack it till it stops moving' and that's the extent of it.

dim reef
#

Eh. Sword and Shield has a decent amount of counter play

#

You gotta time you block and bash and also keep in mind when the enemy's blocking

#

Gun play has improved quite a lot in 4 and Starfield as well but that won't help ES so no point mentioning that

#

Although.
Maybe they could apply some of that into crossbows.

feral viper
#

Fair, it's not that there's NO counter play, it's that the counter play is pretty poor.

#

At minimum, the game should have blocking, parrying and active dodging.

On top of that, individual damage/armour types, an actual stagger system, and ideally variable attack types (though this is a much larger topic)

dim reef
#

Oh FO4 does have that. Individual damage types i mean

#

Ballistic, energy and radiation all have their individual damage thresholds.
They could definitely apply that back for ES

#

Skyrim has some of it. Shock, flame and frost have individual damages

feral viper
#

It has it for Magic, but it's... Well, poorly implemented in general anyway.

#

Cut, Blunt and Pierce are the classics for a reason.

dim reef
#

Oh that reminds me. They really gotta import the cripple system from Fallout.

feral viper
#

I agree, but that also requires more considerations in terms of combat.

#

And way better application. Most of the time in Fallout, your target is dead before you manage to cripple anything. Which kinda makes the system useless.

#

When body parts have more health than the whole entity, you're basically just wasting the whole system.

dim reef
#

Well mid game enemies get buffed quite a bit so health ceases to be an issue

#

It should also apply to the player as well. Get hit in the head and your vision goes all blurry

feral viper
#

I think the safest way to handle it would be to have dedicated Cripple Values...

#

TES in particular has a thematic element which I think could be extremely useful in this context.

Baked into the setting it's self is the concept of the Warrior, Mage and Thief.

Three distinct paradigms representing Might, Magic, and Guile. Which could be used to develop a tripartite dynamic for all equipment stats.

vernal flint
#

About to do my 2nd play through oblivion remaster this game looks absolutely so beautiful that I can't help but to smile when playing it

#

Tbh its better then the original

feral viper
#

I am in a surprisingly good mood, and won't pull at that thread.

vernal flint
#

Lol just my opinion looks better plays better now this is going sound crazy they left the bugs and thats a good thing . They kept everything thats good about it

#

Runs better to but im jealous of pc player they get to try skyblivon if you havent hurd of it look it up

dim reef
#

He's not pulling because he thinks og Oblivion is better. Best leave that alone

#

Enjoy the game

vernal flint
#

I get it like og oblivion to

#

What's better in yall opinion just for fun skyrim or oblivion.

vernal flint
nimble pond
# dim reef Don't make them killable in gameplay. That just adds to annoyance.

Maybe they could just give players the option. You can either turn on the companion shield so they only go into a downed state, never die. Or turn it off so they are vulnerable to death, and are then capable of being necromanced into a "living dead" version of themselves in which they can't die again in that state, lol.

eager remnant
pulsar root
#

Skyrim but that might be bias. Doesn't mean Oblivion earns no respect, quite the opposite really.

vernal flint
#

https://youtu.be/1-tPqJ1F2TM?si=_DiE-fUnEvcNz-bv

YouTube
/noclip
Designing The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - (From Our 2018 Interviews)

To celebrate the launch of Oblivion Remastered we re-edited all of the Oblivion-related clips (and added some new ones) from our 2018 Bethesda interviews into a single video. Links to the full videos used are below.

The History of Bethesda Game Studios:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=QKn9yiLVlMM

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - De...

▶ Play video
vernal flint
vernal flint
nimble pond
#

Only thing that bothers me tho is not being able to kick opponents, like an interrupting gut shot, similar to a shield bash, but we don't always got a shield for that.

nimble pond
# feral viper Speaking of things The Hague would be against... Slavery tech rush civic in Stel...

Speaking of all that. I don't recall, or maybe it's there and I just forgot about it, but I would like to see a more.. "medieval, primitive" study of science in the TES world? Not as popular in the world of Tamriel as it's in an age of spiritual dominance, but still has a presence as science in it's younger, and sometimes more barbaric years of study.
Maybe even have the formation of it's own guild. I think I'd have a lot of fun joining something like that. Building up musuems. Field work, puzzles, crazy experimentation, Archaeological endeavors, new weapon creation, literature/code translating, and further study of the overall planet of Nirn for Academics. Get to see science in it's younger age (not future or modern) and in a fantasy setting rather than a sci-fi one. I like it. Could have interesting fields of study in the TES world. They've already had their share of plagues for example I believe.

vernal flint
#

If you love elder scrolls I highly recommend tainted grail i highly highly highly recommend it . Its a indi elder scrolls like game

#

Just gonna say its indi so its some bugs here and there but man if you like elder scrools and elden ring your gonna like it

nimble pond
#

Everytime I see Avalon, it reminds me of my Guild Wars days

eager remnant
feral viper
#

The idea of the Parabolic Kalpa could have resulted in an interesting shift from Magic to Technology and back again, a pendulum that was constantly swinging between too extremes.

Instead, we get the same dirt-farming barbarians over and over, clinging to their tattered scraps of civilisation, with no ambition or ideas.

#

I mean, hell. The setting literally calls out the Daedra as being unable to create or invent new things. It's supposed to be THE difference between them, and Mortals.

Except, Mortals do jack squat. They just constantly cling to the greater achievements of the past like they're the Imperium of Man

wide garnet
#

I think part of the problem is all the “upheavals” that Tamriel faces on a seemingly regular basis.

nimble pond
#

I hear ya. Could fast-forward to the 10th era Tamriel, and we'd still be thinking we're in the 4th era. 💀

feral viper
#

If that were the case, Europe would be in the stone age.

#

Upheaval breeds innovation. Societal crisis drives the dismantling of tradition and the reformation of new ideas.

#

TES just falls prey to standard traditionalism nonsense

nimble pond
#

Well luckily it's just in TES, lol

wide garnet
feral viper
#

Which is why new information is needed to fill the gaps.

But in TES, nothing new ever comes out. It's just a slow rot.

#

Which could it's self be an interesting thing to explore. But no one does.

wide garnet
minor dew
#

Nice to see you implemented some of my ideas in,to oblivion be nice to see them implanted in to 6

feral viper
#

I'd eat my shoes, if in the next game we see Akatosh, and he says something like:

"Dagon is the fire that cremates the body. Alduin is the carrion that clears the field. By standing against the safeguards of the future, you have left the world to rot beneath your feet. Cancer and decay are all that await you now."

minor dew
#

100 hours in oblivion again didn't think I'd be playing this game again

feral viper
#

Or even Ruptga, as according to Redguard myth the world is created out of the shed skins of other worlds, and is little more than a ball of rotting flesh.

pulsar root
bitter kestrel
#

Keep it appropriate please chat

feral viper
#

Hell, pull a switcheroo. The Thalmor have been doing a Vrythur the whole time.

ALL our PCs, and the prophecies they have been fulfilling, was to undermine the natural systems to Mundus, so they could finally destroy it.

tardy atlas
vernal flint
spark kayak
#

Hello, I am not as clued in as some of yall may be (I stepped away for a bit) but I wanted to ask if there any news on updates for oblivion remastered. Anything I missed over the past couple months?

dim reef
#

remember this is bethesda were talking about here...have you SEEN skyrim nearly 14 years later...

#

Bugs and glitches left in are bethesdas number one trademark

#

me: buys oblivion remastered
me: gets refund
bethesda: releases bug fixes
me: buys oblivion remastered
me: notices argonian/khajiit tails still do not appear in Outfits or Robes
me: gets refund again

feral viper
#

If bugs are a deal killer for you, you probably shouldn't buy Bethesda in the first place.

spark kayak
#

Bugs/glitches aren't a deal breaker for me, I expect those. I just know that they were soliciting feedback for what people wanted to see and it's been radio silent, from what I recall. Just didn't know if I missed something recently or not.

feral viper
#

Bethesda is about as communicative as the Antarans in Master of Orion.

#

'The Antarans are the definition of a Black Hole Government. Information and data goes in, but no enlightenment ever comes out'.

#

Only the occasional edict or demand.

#

Always liked getting to the point where I could conquer the Antarans in MoO3...

But I digress.

dim reef
minor dew
feral viper
# dim reef Any western rpg tbf

Honestly, I think it's a natural consequence of the differences in game design.

Western RPGs tend to be more open ended, variable, and free form. And this kind of approach naturally lends it's self to bigger executions, due to the sheer number of possible interaction permutations

feral viper
#

Not necessarily saying this is for the best though. My opinions on Choice Driven Narratives and Alternate Endings should be pretty clear that this point

novel geode
#

I think elder scrolls 6 is a myth at this point

#

I think elder scrolls 6 will just be Skyrim remastered in UE5.5

wide garnet
eager remnant
#

This is the kind of attitude that compelled Bethesda to release that traile back in 2018r, to quell the growing rumors that ES6 wasn't happening.

nimble pond
novel geode
glad cypress
#

I'll just be glad to play it when it comes out, it's not like I've spent money on it already after all

#

I'm a fan of the little things in games, often overlooked. One such thing I think should be incorporated is unique animations for each weapon type. Spears that thrust, maces that swing heavily, swords that have combinations of swings and stabs involved, battleaxes that crush through with wide swings

#

I've never really been a third person player outside quick fit checks in scenic locations, but unique third person animations would be nice too. Imagine a greatsword actually using full body movements instead of flat side to side swings and that charging overhead that gets kind of old after a while

dim reef
#

The teaser was simply announced too early. My guess is it was done to quell fan concerns that they were going all in on live service games from there on out.

#

Also they were announcing Blades at the same time. Probably wanted to avoid another Diablo Immortal situation, making a mobile game the main focus

nimble pond
#

So, this Shehai thing. What if they give it a personality and our sword starts talking to us? Meet your new companion, a previously inanimate object. 😄

#

And bunnies. Whenever we cast a spell onto a bunny to fight for us, it should automatically grow like 15x in size. Hulk bunny.

wide garnet
wide garnet
nimble pond
#

The best part would be watching enemies get hopped to death by a cute bunny. Bandit pancakes. Freshly crushed.

I used to hop around alot back in the day, with PhD. Flopper. But that's a whole other story.

feral viper
#

The Shehai is... Kinda problematic, from a design standpoint.

#

Including it would basically invalidate Weapons in the game, which is kinda a huge part of the equipment dynamic.

feral viper
wide garnet
feral viper
crude solstice
novel geode
#

We don’t even know where the game takes place

slow loom
#

7 years seems pretty patient to me hehe.

novel geode
# slow loom 7 years seems pretty patient to me hehe.

Exactly lol. We’re now at 14 years between elder scrolls main title releases. Either Bethesda is cooking or they are cooked. By how Starfield went and how creation engine 2 is going in general, probably the latter

#

Creation engine 2 sucks. Full of bugs, and absolutely terrible for modding, which is what’s kept Skyrim alive this long

timid drum
#

There's no point in getting inpatient, there will be a new game eventually.

crude solstice
#

^Exactly, we already waited for nearly a decade so few more years is nothing

timid drum
#

Aye, additionally there's countless games out there so you aren't sitting idly and twidling your thumbs.

novel geode
crude solstice
#

Well when u put it that way…

novel geode
#

We should at least get some information. Maybe an estimate on year release, where it takes place, a no spoiler rundown on plot/factions etc

dim reef
#

Starfield's problems are Bethesda's own fault. The engine had nothing to do with it

novel geode
#

Starfield mod scene is so low, nobody wants to mod it

#

CE2 just isn’t good. It’s the UE5 of Bethesda

gloomy anchor
#

Please keep it on topic

dim reef
#

None of that is the engine's fault. The modding tools simply aren't as robust. Skyrim took years to refine it's CK

novel geode
dim reef
#

You won't have dlc sized mods in just a single year of the modding tools being released. Not even ES6 with the massive hype around it can achieve that

pulsar root
#

lol

dim reef
#

Unless you think Skyrim's modding community grew where it is today in a single year

feral viper
#

Bethesda has total control of the engine. Anything that it can or cannot do is a direct result of Bethesda's choices, not an explicit limitation of the engine it's self.

#

If it has problems for modders, it's because Bethesda made it that way. And thinking that another engine is going to be free of those problems is just wishful thinking.

#

Especially given that most of these problems have persisted with Bethesda across 4 seperate engines at this point.

dim reef
#

Pretty much. The modding tools for CE2 are quite new rn. It'll take time for it to reach the same heights CE1 did

nimble pond
nimble pond
feral viper
#

I have waited 21 years for a conclusion... A other 21 will be easy.

#

Oh, wait... Wrong franchise..

night ember
#

hey bethesda can you guys just deal with jeremy soule instead of trying to get one of your regulars to handle tes6? They're just not gonna be able to live up to it, speaking as someone who almost never touched another bethesda game after starting with starfield and its insufferable new atlantis theme. I know he's a flake but just throw him a few mil of that microsoft money, I'm sure he can make 20 tracks before the game comes out at least. He's just so much better speaking as someone playing skyrim for the first time lol

night ember
feral viper
#

Unfortunately, no. Defiance is the end of Raziel's story, but not Kains.

#

I would still recommend it though. Easily one of the best written franchises in gaming.

#

Everything Ithelia does wrong about free will and destiny, LoK does right.

#

Soul Reaver is literally the only remaster I have ever bought, if that tells you anything about whether or not I think it's worth it.

#

Though, I'm also in the credits because I backed the comic, so...

#

I should look into the status of that...

dim reef
#

And while Starfield's ost wasn't his best work. Zur is a capable musician, he's done plenty of great soundtracks. One misfire ain't an indicator of his entire portfolio.

#

Though one thing's for certain. Soule ain't coming back and Bethesda can't do much about it in this case.

nimble pond
#

Where do the Elder Scrolls come from? And who are the "Elders?"
Aliens? Aliens.

spiral breach
#

In terms of in-game lore, I actually read a scroll in Oblivion the other day, concerning the naming behind "Elder Scrolls". It was interesting. They are, in a sense, "Aedric Prophecies", however that name was questioned also.. something about a guy called Therin of Mournhold etc., who contributed in naming them that? Something like that, can't remember lol

#

Other than them being "before time," so I presume something "written" by the Aedra? Dunno

dim reef
#

Though aliens sound cool

wind torrent
#

i was looking again at the TES lore. And i've always wondered why there is tech stagnation or rather tech regression

feral viper
#

Because it's a trope.

A stupid trope, but a trope that is doggedly held to by most fantasy settings

wind torrent
#

why we never got a tes game set in a fictional victorian age during industrial revolution or even in our current times

pulsar root
#

It would be less Fantasy if we did a "Industrial Revolution" and well ES isn't meant to be based on the real world.

wind torrent
#

then how about a new game for bethesda ?

#

Actually that's medieval fantasy but we can have also industrial revolution fantasy

#

if you look ad dishonored, we got magic, witches and unknow entities. That game is still a fantasy game

feral viper
#

Well, it depends how they handle things.

If the world is Tech vs Magic, then the decline in Magic could cause a similar technological development curve to what we see in the real world.

If the world is Tech IS magic, then things would happen very differently.

wind torrent
#

Or is a equally ballance debate between science vs magic

#

i'm surprised bethesda didn't keep in consideration this concept

#

the tabletop game Mages the ascention from World of Darkness does that a lot

pulsar root
#

ES doesn't need too much high tech themes, Dwemer already almost cover that. Doesn't need to dive hard in tech or try to be like Dishonored. Dishonored=/ Elder Scrolls

wind torrent
#

this is why i'm ok for a new bethesda game since TES is his own thing

feral viper
#

TES typically leans more into, Tech IS Magic.

As much as people call the Dwemer Steampunk, magic is still at the core of how their technology functions.

wind torrent
#

Damn, i really need to pitch an idea to Bethesda

#

i think would be fun to expand their catalogue with a new game

pulsar root
#

Not that Dwemer will get too much delving into. Since Todd wants to keep their disappearence basically an unknown.

dim reef
#

I like how Dragon Age essentially treats Magic as sci fi. Minrathous is pretty much a cyberpunk dystopia

wind torrent
#

and yet we got the harry potter's wizard society and is essentially a mix of victorian age enclave stuck in our current time

dim reef
#

Harry Potter is really not a good example of world design

feral viper
#

Well, Harry Potter is about as well thought out as Crassus' invasion of Parthia.

wind torrent
#

🤔

pulsar root
#

There is some design there but without being too off topic. Magic probably doesn't reach heights as ES does. And well the elephant in the room we should not talk about here(Mod fury)

wind torrent
#

Well, i guess Bioshock is science evolved to a point we can cast magic thanks to bio genetic

feral viper
#

Yeah, Bioshock is Magic IS Tech

wind torrent
#

but so even Prey 2018

feral viper
#

Same with Mass Effect.

wind torrent
#

also i'm so disappoint to discover that game got a cancelled sequel.

feral viper
#

I know. I had a preorder for it right up until they officially cancelled it

wind torrent
#

it burns... it has so much potential

feral viper
#

EB would ask me if I wanted to terminate the preorder every time I went in.

I told them 'I will only cancel it when either it, or I, die'

dim reef
#

All this really makes me sad that gameplay wise Magic is pathetic in ES

#

Like we got lore about earth shattering magic then in gameplay we got generic lightning with stock sound effects

wind torrent
#

we really need a new bethesda game where we have a perpetual clash between science vs magic

feral viper
#

The best example of Tech is Magic I've seen was a game called Lost Odyssey.

wind torrent
feral viper
#

The intro cinematic is basically all you need to see to get the point.

dim reef
#

We already had that. It resulted in the dwemer getting nuked

pulsar root
dim reef
wind torrent
feral viper
#

Man, rewatching that intro... They really thought things through.

pulsar root
feral viper
#

Battlelines supported by magically powered striders casting resurrection magic, constantly bringing troops back...

wind torrent
feral viper
#

A JRPG

#

It was a solid game, actually. On par with most Final Fantasy games.

#

It goes full Magictech though. Which is frankly the end result of any magic setting.

wind torrent
#

curious

#

now that you mention, even the series shin megami tensei and persona is also about magic vs science

feral viper
#

Actually, Avatar Legend of Korra is another great example of this.

#

The industrial revolution in it is DRIVEN by new uses for Bending.

wind torrent
#

same for Disney Pixar Onward

feral viper
#

Their Power Plants are basically just Firebenders boiling water, or using Lightning Bending to charge capacitor directly.

wind torrent
#

necessity for adaptation

feral viper
#

Most traditional western fantasy settings simply don't devote the brain power into thinking about how these things would naturally interact.

#

D&D being an exception. Some times.

wind torrent
#

same Mages the Ascention 😂

#

well i suppose bethesda could do a World of Darkness game adaptation 😂

inland shale
feral viper
#

D&D's excuse for the stagnancy of the setting is mostly because every time Mortals start to really push the magitech envelope, the gods smack them down..

wind torrent
#

gods are the true mods

#

Gods: it's ban hammer time

feral viper
#

The fall of the Elder Races, the end of Imaskir, the Fall of Netheril...

#

When Mortals get too big for their britches, the gods put them back in their place.

#

The Doom of Imaskir is my favourite, because it's WILD.

#

They were destroyed because they literally pissed off OUR gods.

wind torrent
#

another excuse "we keep our game set in that timeline, period"

feral viper
#

Marduk, Ra, and their homies got on a boat, sailed through the Phlogesten Sea, and went to Faerun to put the smack down on the Imaskir.

wind torrent
#

then we have shadowrun

#

that's also an interesting game. Some humans becomes elfs, orcs and many other races and magic start to rise

feral viper
#

I could really go for a new, PROPER Shadowrun game.

wind torrent
#

is an interesting mix of science vs magic set in a cyberpunk future

feral viper
#

Not an Overwatch Prototype...

wind torrent
#

well, i suppose bethesda could make something like that BUT not set in the TES world

feral viper
#

TES doesn't even make use of what it HAS in this regard.

wind torrent
#

that's why all in for a new game

feral viper
#

Where are the Simulacrums? Like Dram had died THREE TIMES before Redguard. They just kept growing him a new body.

Where are the Dreamsleave Speakers? Basically Magic Telegraph service.

#

I swear, whoever is in charge of TES these days actively hates the magic of the setting.

wind torrent
#

but i think bethesda need to tone down with the concept of "quantity over quality". Starfield got an interesting concept but i didn't feel very involved.

feral viper
#

Well, for the most part, they haven't had quality. So had to go for quantity.

#

Though, I will admit, Starfield's storytelling was better than previous games.

Most of the stories weren't, but they were told better.

wind torrent
wind torrent
#

then how about to shrink and try something more contain in a limited scenario instead of a galaxy? It helps to focus on the verticality aspect

feral viper
#

I think that the Vanguard story was actually kinda good, and had some meaningful nuance.

Everything else was either bad (Rangers) irrelevant (Ryujin or the Crimson Fleet) or ended up ending with a sad flop after a strong start (main quest).

#

Though, none of it was Oblivion bad. So there's clear improvements being made. And I can't fault improvement.

wind torrent
#

you know what? I think the problem is sci fi

#

don't get me wrong, it's good but by noticing the trends seems the general audience doesn't like sci fi

#

they want fantasy or just our world

feral viper
#

You can tell amazing stories in Sci Fi. I'd argue that you can tell far better stories in it than you can in Fantasy.

#

But it's also very easy to make BAD Sci Fi.

Fantasy tends to be a little harder to screw up.

pulsar root
#

Bruh

feral viper
wind torrent
feral viper
#

Dune, I Robot, Foundation, 3 Body Problem... They're all better than LoTR.

wind torrent
#

and let's not forget warhammer 40K

feral viper
#

Don't get me wrong. Lord of the Rings is phenomenal. But Sci Fi has higher peaks than Fantasy does.

It also has much lower valleys.

wind torrent
#

and yet the audience wants fantasy

feral viper
#

Because it's a lot easier to just shut your brain off with fantasy.

#

Look at the successful Sci Fi games. They tend to almost be Fantasy games in a sci-fi skin.

Swords. Big monsters to beat up. Magic.

pulsar root
#

There is nothing about Sci-fi that is "boring"(Off topic).

wind torrent
#

sci fi is just when magic is just science but more elegant and sophisticate

feral viper
#

Sci-fi also tends to more directly explore real world issues, which get people all grumpy in their fee fees

wind torrent
#

true even that. Or just is a copy of our world but improved from better to worst

feral viper
#

It's much easier to conceal those sorts of explorations in Fantasy, when you can literally mask them behind dragons and non-human races.

wind torrent
#

Well, we can do that in sci fi and could be just aliens, robots and mutants

feral viper
#

Of course, I'm the sort of person who thinks, if you aren't trying to make a point, your story isn't worth telling, so I'm far more accepting of that stuff..

#

Now, your point may ALSO not be worth telling Cough Ithelia cough but that's a whole other thing.

#

Back to the topic of TES... The setting has always been one on the threshold of full Magictech.

But for whatever reason, Bethesda has decided that it doesn't like magic. It wants a low-fantasy, gritty, dirt farmer world.

#

And I don't say this as speculation. The ESO team, in the leadup to Summerset, literally stated that Todd's view is that magic could disappear, and most of the world wouldn't even notice.

#

Now, personally, I think that makes for an incredibly lame world.

But it's also clear to me at this point that Bethesda and I want very different things from the setting, and in this fight, Bethesda is the one with the control.

#

So I have to accept that Tamriel will probably never do anything to make fall in love with it again.

So while TES (the games) still have immense value, I think, the setting it's self...

wind torrent
#

the fact Morrowind is still considered the peak of TES games tells a lot

feral viper
#

Well, depends who you ask, really.

#

TES games tend to be so wildly different from one to the next, you will pretty easily find people who think Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim, are the peak..

#

There's no clear winner in that regard.

wind torrent
#

true

#

but i'm watching more the society of the dunmers and how magic rules their world

feral viper
#

Absolutely.

wind torrent
#

then we look at Skyrim... magic is almost absent

feral viper
#

Personally, I DO think Morrowind is the best, setting wise.

Skyrim is the best mechanically (though could be improved still).

And Oblivion is the low point for Bethesda in all respects

wind torrent
#

eh, it was mid

#

can't deny i enjoyed to own my magic tower, pirate cove or even the castle with my wine brewery

#

but with oblivion? If you remove the daedric invasion, is just a regular fantasy setting

feral viper
#

And even the Daedric invasion is just... A generic invasion from Hell

wind torrent
#

yeah

#

at least the elder scroll online was much more interesting with bal

feral viper
#

There's nothing distinctly TES about any of it.

Like, of you took Warhammer, changed all the names, and marketed it... It'd still clearly be Warhammer.

But if you changed all the names in Oblivion, and sold it... It would just be another generic Fantasy RPG.

wind torrent
#

really need some reworks

#

at least Sheogorath was more interesting since we become him

feral viper
#

And this has become a problem with TES as a whole.

Morrowind IS Morrowind. Doesn't matter how you try to obfuscate it, you couldn't disguise that identity.

Skyrim is iffy.

But Oblivion? You could practically turn it into Kingdome Come with minimal effort.

wind torrent
#

That's the problem since with TESO i see the tentative to expand more the imperial society, use and costumes

#

something in Oblivion lacks in term of personality, society and costumes

feral viper
#

ESO has done better. But large swaths of it still have that problem.

#

Hammerfell, Highrock, Valenwood, Summerset...

wind torrent
#

sadly i had to drop ESO, it was interesting but on the long run i coudn't play the same game. I wanted something new and refreshing

feral viper
#

They're basically 'How can we copy recognisable fantasy tropes'

wind torrent
#

and yet again we return on "why bethesda can't made a new game about Magic vs science"?

#

I would really love to see science and wizards trying to debunk each other on who is right and who is wrong

feral viper
#

Don't get me wrong, I will STILL recommend ESO to TES fans, because I still think it's the best addition to the lore and setting since Morrowind.

#

But it still falls far, far short of what I think is needed to fix the setting.

wind torrent
#

what kind of fix?

feral viper
#

Oh boy... Well... Massive retcons in terms of art and culture across the setting.

Basically redoing everything but the Argonians, Khajiit and Dunmer.

wind torrent
#

But for real, bethesda got Starfield, Fallout and TES. So what about merging those game mechanics and trying to make something new?

feral viper
#

Huge injection of magical traditions for every single culture. Fundamental changes to how Race and Ethnicity work. Changes to how Aedra and Daedra are approached in narratives.

Clear cultural depth standards to ensure consistency across the franchise.

#

Just... Basically burning everything written for Valenwood since ESO...

That legitimately made me angry, it was so bad.

wind torrent
#

oof

#

but yeah i get it

feral viper
#

In terms of cultures, I would go so far as to set clear rules.

They just have at least 3 subdivisions.

They just have established martial and magical traditions that are distinct from the continental norms.

Their internal political structure must be defined.

They must have at least 1000 years of established history before it gives way to myth.

They just have an independent traditional religious structure distinct from the continental norms.

They must have a distinct mythic heritage.

They just have a clearly established artistic style.

#

Ideally, they would also have their own culinary heritage, their own family and martial traditions, their own cultural social and gender roles, etc.

They should FEEL like a distinct people, with all the depth and nuance that brings.

#

Not a blank placeholder, like in Oblivion, or a one dimensional trope, like in Skyrim.

wind torrent
nimble pond
spiral breach
#

Yea it is barely discussed, its very mythical and without any definitive answer, for sure

pulsar root
feral viper
#

The Scrolls seem to date to Creation. There are various theories on what they were or could be, but their inability to record things without linear time (hence why they stop working during Dragon Breaks) implies the they are linked to Mundus and it's flow of time.

#

I personally always held to the hypothesis that they're see the original blueprints that Magnus, Auriel and Lorkhan drew up. But because of the nature of free will, the plan constantly changes, leading to their seemingly infinite variability

tardy tiger
# wind torrent and yet again we return on "why bethesda can't made a new game about Magic vs s...

The age old problem is honestly the games just don't do tech well for this sort of thing. We even know the Empire of the games has had good levels of technology it's just the games have never been good with it.

The Third Empire had Airships, a space station (Battlespire) and warships with ironplating. Yet TES3, 4 and 5 don't give that sort of feel with any of their places of that sort of advancement.

https://images.uesp.net/2/2f/RG-place-Imperial_Camp_02.jpg
https://images.uesp.net/d/df/BS-place-The_Battlespire.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1416119314062245888/1416179718209802431/image.png?ex=68c69064&is=68c53ee4&hm=bfab0a242ba3490e22542cd86ae94605ec3d227e134e0a17cfea69edaa003923&

wind torrent
wide garnet
#

Maybe we can get a VC where we go on a scavenger hunt-style quest to repair/reboot a Dwemer airship. It would be interesting to have something that’s not just hack-and-slash-and-hope-for-the-best.

feral viper
#

Pure speculation. But I feel like Bethesda, or at least those making decisions AT Bethesda, heavily favour referential styles over more independent styles..

#

They like when you can very clearly get the references, up front, rather than creating things that are distinctly bespoke for the game or setting.

#

We see this with the MUCH stronger 50s inspiration of Bethesda Fallout (it was always there, but lighter before) and the explicit NASA reference in the design language of Starfield

#

The weirder (and better, IMO) parts of TES aren't easily worked into the clear referential style. So they get sidelined or buried in favour of simpler, more explicit references.

night ember
feral viper
#

Morrowind is the only one that feels distinct, IMO.

night ember
night ember
# feral viper Morrowind is the only one that feels distinct, IMO.

I dunno most other fantasy worlds are written more like religious texts where everything has a clear purpose and payoff, a perfect system. Elder Scrolls has a bunch of religious texts that are all interacting with ambiguous divine forces, contradictory views on historical events etc.

feral viper
#

I think I understand what you're saying, and I generally agree. The delivery of the structure is also a factor.

#

And of courses this gets into the Iceberg Theory of worldbuilding.

But you don't have to TELL anyone everything that's I'm the iceberg. But you do need it to inform how you present your world and your story.

#

Otherwise you just get a mishmash bunch of nonsense.

dim reef
#

What they need to do is release more merch. I suggest an Azura body pillow

feral viper
pulsar root
radiant moss
noble verge
feral viper
nimble pond
#

So, would this be overkill or fun?

So if they have vampires again, how about something that's like a crossbow, but a step up..
A wooden, rotating barrel (like a gatling gun) stake/bolt thrower? Sort of a Gothic style.

Maybe it could be configured to shoot other stuff too. Like poisons or holy/divine potions.

nimble pond
#

A while ago I mentioned wanting to bring in a steam-actuated dwemer mechanical weapon that you can carry to add more variety to long-range weapons. Like shooting spiky balls with linked chain. Sort of like a harpoon basically. And while I think a harpoon weapon would be a cool addition.. this is what I was originally thinking of.
A harpoon "cannon," but shrunk down in size so you can actually carry it.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/d0f007be5ebefe3eb4217426c94dce25/tumblr_inline_phc2yepOX91sqgw83_500.jpg

#

This is kinda how I envisioned it, with the rotating wheel for retracting it or pulling enemies you've hooked with it and even launch them back out, even objects. Sounds kinda like a harpoon/Hookshot hybrid, both a weapon and a tool, would be cool if you could use it to launch yourself to any location you hook to. Could do alot of different things with it potentially. Just with a Dwemer skin and maximum steam power for heavy piercing & knockback damage, and able to shoot spiky balls with linked chains as well. If building damage gets added, could potentially collapse some walls too.
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/042/972/868/large/benjamin-reinsch-harpune-detail-2.jpg?1635945979

nimble pond
#

Oh yea, and instead of an arena competition/sport, maybe a jousting competition instead.

wide garnet
night ember
#

wtf I find a bunch of stormcloak scum and I can't kill them because their "sun killer" guy is protected? very weak

dim reef
#

Nope. Some faction characters can't be killed even after the civil war questline is done

night ember
tardy tiger
pulsar root
#

I prefer the Imperial City as is, minus except maybe the Antiquity filter that Arthas is mentioning

feral viper
#

The architecture is eh. It's sort of a human replication of Ayleid styles, and with a little more care could have been pretty decent.

#

The rest of Cyrodiil, on the other hand...

night ember
night ember
tardy tiger
tardy tiger
night ember
feral viper
#

I won't say they're good. But I will say Least Bad.

tardy tiger
#

TES4 has the weird problem of the game really not wanting to do Cyrodiil.

Art style is all over the place with the cities doing it's best to not be Imperial (Anvil, Bruma and Cheydinhal) and the writing struggles to make "Dragonborn" relevant to the Imperials. It failed bad enough that they threw it the Nords in TES5 and have the Imperials forget entirely about Dragonborn Emperor.

Like the closest city to the idea of the "Imperials" is the Imperial City with its Late Roman architecture the only issue of the city is the Ayleid Palace not looking different to the rest of the Nedic city (too much time has passed for the other parts of the city to still be Ayleid nevermind scale issues with a city's growth).

feral viper
#

I don't think the game wanted to be TES at all.

night ember
#

mechanically it did, and to be fair both arena and daggerfall are similarly generic.

feral viper
#

Oh absolutely. But they were before the real definition of the setting, so I give them a bit of a pass.

#

The period between Daggerfall, and Morrowind was when the setting was defined.

And it's clear to me, at least, that with Oblivion they wanted to go back to Daggerfall.

#

And the result was something Dr. Kellogg would have been proud of.

tardy tiger
#

Oblivion isn't even Renaissance enough to be TES2

feral viper
#

But, the less I say about Oblivion the better... So I'll leave it at that.

glad cypress
#

I've always accepted TES being made up of various historical references, given I started with IV, played V almost religiously and dipped my toes into III much later. That being said, IV does seem a little all over the place, and in hindsight the design influence of Peter Jackson's LoTR is pretty apparent. I think it could have worked super well if it was all a bit more unified in vision, and I would've appreciated a more classical roman sort of undertone to the structures than we got in the end. Still, I can't say I don't enjoy it to this day

feral viper
#

No, no. Stick to your guns man. Don't keep talking about Oblivion.

pulsar root
#

Insert meme about Oblivion here. AdoringFan

dim reef
#

I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than you OblivionGuard

eager remnant
feral viper
#

There is one that Oblivion fears.

#

Me. It fears me. With my carefully thought out critique of everything in it.

slow loom
#

Then you realise it's just a game.

pulsar root
#

A game from 2007.

dim reef
feral viper
#

And even in 2007, it was bad.

#

Anyway, a productive topic.

#

I think Fallout 4s crafting dynamic, AND armour slots, is the best model going forward for armour.

With some more careful application, of course.

#

6 slots. Head, L-Arm, Torso, R-Arm, L-Leg, R-Leg.

Now, this isn't technically how armour works in realoty, but it has an advantage of minimising the number of actual pieces you have to manage, as well as easily linking up to any reasonable Limb Damage system.

#

But that's only 6 pieces for customization, I hear you protest. Morrowind had 8.

Well, that's where the crafting part comes in.

#

Each of the 6 slots, comprising 3 components. That becomes 18 points if customization, more than double Morrowind's.

But layered behind a secondary system so you aren't forced to engage with it unless you want to.

nimble pond
#

I wonder what aliens would think if we put Oblivion in a time capsule into space and they found it.

#

Anyway, Shadowmere probably will show up in TESVI. I'm thinking give him some abilities this time. Like having the option of shadow-cloaking whenever you're riding, so nobody can detect you or Shadowmere.

timid drum
#

Yes, shadowmere deserves to be treated like a god

night ember
#

really like how the conversation camera works in this game compared to starfield or oblivion, makes all the conversations feel much more organic

dim reef
#

They'll add Shadowmere as a Creation Club add-on in ES6

night ember
#

also the blessings of nature is a great quest

nimble pond
#

It makes ya wonder though, what would become of the Dragonborn after Skyrim. Would they restore the DB to glory after getting bored of having no more dragons to slay? Could all the protagonists from each game end up turning to a more villainous role after their main mission is complete (would be crazy if they all teamed up as a supervillain group, the ultimate foe)? Like with what happened to the protagonist (Hero of Kvatch) in Oblivion?

dim reef
glad cypress
# nimble pond It makes ya wonder though, what would become of the Dragonborn after Skyrim. Wou...

I think they're all gone permanently, but in an alternate universe where they stay relevant, I think they would take on some sort of political role.
Mainly because the Civil War questline is rubbed in your face, you also have to deal with the two sides in the main quest, you infiltrate the Thalmor due to delphine the Rusty Knife, and the first thing that happens after you kill a dragon is become a minor political figure (Thane of Whiterun)

#

Maybe they embrace it, maybe they shy from it, but they all end up with inevitable political sway and subsequent duties through Cultural Lore to Skyrim. Much like modern day royalty, they might run from it in various ways, but they will always have that mark of having been royalty

feral viper
#

Depends on how Bethesda takes the statement 'Last Dragonborn'.

I think the cleanest explanation is, they went north to Atmora and were never seen again.

dim reef
#

Sometimes i wish they went the Bioware route and just let you choose what happened to your prior character in the next game.
Not in a way that affects the story so to avoid more work integrating different choices, but just having nods in dialogue here and there.

#

Cos' we're definitely not returning to Skyrim or seeing them again. Just make a history box with a bunch of options.

glad cypress
#

That could potentially get quite long for very little gain, given all the big side quests in multiple games. I like the idea, and Bioware's implementation of it, but unless it's actually changing the story I doubt it would be done like that

#

I've never really thought about it, but it's kind of crazy how they actually have massive parts of multiple games that don't exist in some playthroughs because of previous choices

dim reef
#

It's better if it doesn't change the story. It'd take less work to implement it as It'd just be a box with small dialogue/book changes

glad cypress
dim reef
#

Yeah and I'm saying don't do any of that.
You can import your DAO save in DA2 and it only changes some small character appearances and dialogues. Nothing more

glad cypress
dim reef
#

Ah. Fair

glad cypress
#

I'd half like to see a resolute ending (or at least a continuation) to my character from the last game, and half don't? I think, personally, I'd like to see active references to them but very little information about them directly. Maybe a group of nords talking about "There's talk of a new band of warriors that follow the LDB to help kill dragons still hiding in Skyrim" or something

feral viper
#

I'm the radical here, where I say BioWare's approach is just flat out bad, and alternative endings and 'Choices' are acutely damaging to stories.

#

They unilaterally result in worse end products, and are effectively the lazy way of trying to inject a sense of agency into a story.

#

In forcing player agency because you can't write a story that FEELS like you have agency, you end up stripping every other character in the narrative of their own agency, and creating a story that panders solely to the whom of the PC.

#

It's the same reason I never bought into the 'every death matters' narrative hot wind of Dark Souls.

No they don't. Because you can't actually go hollow. Your character will always be there, always ready to go and be the chosen one and win.

At least in games like TES, when you die, you're dead. You don't respawn.

#

At best, loading a save is creating a new continuity.

pulsar root
#

I'd like to imagine my char experience Skyrim and then ends up in 6 but... timeline can mess with that if its another 100 years or more(Though I can figure that out easily)

dim reef
#

That's why i want an approach that doesn't alter any major plot event. Just some flavor dialogue here and there based on how your character acted.

tardy tiger
glad cypress
glad cypress
# feral viper They unilaterally result in worse end products, and are effectively the lazy way...

I disagree that they're unilaterally worse products, sometimes it's nice to have a somewhat reactive world where you can have a hand in the ending. It might be down to personal preference, as I've spent a lot of time growing up imagining myself in different games and stories playing out various "What-if's" with different choices at plot points. My main issue with choice-based games is how limited they are, obviously due to time and money, but I'd absolutely love a game that let me improvise almost anything with reactions and consequences from NPCs and the world

#

Some people dislike it, but the skyrim mod that made NPCs react to you with an AI was cool to watch. Never played it, but being able to conversate with a relatively accurate game character about whatever is just pure fun for me

feral viper
# glad cypress I disagree that they're unilaterally worse products, sometimes it's nice to have...

See, I view them the total opposite way.

Stories have interconnected working parts. Every actor is an agent, and their engagement with that story meshes together to create the end result.

Now, in the case of video games, the AI simply does not exist to react in a real and natural way to the decisions of one actor or another, human or otherwise.

So instead, you have to write multiple stories reacting to set parameters, and all those parameters are dictated by a single actors agency.

For one, that's not reactive. That prescriptive. It's just prescriptive with extra steps.

Worse though, is this approach utterly strips other actors of even the illusion of agency. Everything just circles around the PC and what they do.

#

This is particularly egregious in games like New Vegas, where you're super Uber Jesus and everything you do shapes history of the ass end of the apocalypse... But it extends to BioWare's games, to TES, to Baldur's Gate, etc.

#

Instead of an ACTUAL engaging and complex story, these sorts of choices are used as a crutch to make things seem complex, when it's really just the Truman Show back there.

pulsar root
#

A reactive world is a + Also I think npc dialogue in certain locations should change post Mainquest ending.

feral viper
#

The problem is, we currently can't DO reactive worlds. The AI just isn't there for it.

Best you can do is smoke and mirrors it. And the smoke and mirrors is the quality of Icecube's War of the Worlds.

#

In 20 years, if we haven't prohibited the use of generative AI, maybe. But as it stands? It's just not doable.

#

I will go so far as to say, this sort of storytelling has actively made every game I've played, that had used it, worse.

I know I'm in the minority with that opinion, however. So I have resigned myself to suffering through it.

feral viper
#

Bethesda typically just... You know, totally ignores the problem and pretends it's not there. That's the usual solution

stark flower
#

Reminder that we do not discuss real life politics or social issues in this server. We also ask that everyone remain respectful.

#

If there are questions, please message @vast rain

feral viper
#

It's really one of those weeks, isn't it?

stark flower
feral viper
#

Man, even I know better than to push that line.

nimble pond
#

If they do add a limb system, or honestly, in any game of their games with melee, like Fallout. Should just straight up be able to specifically target and break any limb (hand, arm, back, knee, shin, ankle, neck) if you've put enough training into it.

feral viper
#

I think such a system would be great, if they significantly retool combat.

livid ingot
#

Introduce the Overgrowth system. Mothman

pulsar root
#

I don't remember that(Is it a F076 thing)

dim reef
#

This is a smaller thing but I hope they add more quest specific music in future games.
Reusing the normal ambient/combat tracks in unique scenarios has gotten pretty old

feral viper
feral viper
dim reef
#

I think Starfield has some of that. The Key battle had a unique track that's not present anywhere else. Not even the album.
Also when you get chased by the hunter a variation of a combat track plays that's not present anywhere else

#

We need more of that. Curated quest specific tracks

feral viper
#

Building off Mick Gordon's composition structure, innovated for DooM, is the best way forward industry wide, IMO.

livid ingot
dim reef
#

Remedy also utilizes their music really well

livid ingot
#

I agree with Terical, its too fast and intense for a game with broad appeal like TES

#

But its a system I really love

feral viper
#

It looks amazing. Though I've only seen one on one situations...

#

I'd be interested to see if you could Jacky Chan a fight...

livid ingot
#

Makes combat really visceral and fast, just like irl

dim reef
#

Also individual character themes would be nice too. Bioware's games often have unique tracks dedicated to special characters like the villians

#

So far in ES we've only had one two such tracks. Nerevar rising and Dragonborn

feral viper
#

One of which has gone in to define the musical sting for the entire franchise

dim reef
#

And they're both variations of the same track

feral viper
#

Though, I will admit... Oblivion's Rise of the Septims has the best metal cover I've heard of the main themes.

dim reef
#

Rise or is it Reign?

#

But yeah it does have a cool cover

feral viper
#

May be reign.

dim reef
#

I think all the daedra atleast should be given unique themes like that

#

Dragon Age has unique themes for 4 of the elven gods. Mythal, Solas, Ghil and Elgarnan

feral viper
#

All I know is that Epinikion's cover of it is amazing.

#

That said, I stand by my statement about compositional format.

Mick Gordon's approach is the best way forward, across the board.

#

Not necessarily the musical style, but how he composed pieces to be situationally versatile, allowing them to ebb and flow with the action without directly necessitating new tracks entirely.

dim reef
#

I think Inon Zur has already worked on projects like that so he's got the chops for it atleast.
Now whether or not Bethesda uses it is another matter entirely

feral viper
#

The basic theory is, you compose a single unified piece with specific blocks that can be strung together.

Included are four basic types of sections: Slow, Pace-Up, Fast, and Pace-Down.

As the action changes, you can then trigger Pace-Up or Pace-Down sequences to transition to the main Fast or Slow sections, which you can independently loop depending on how fast the action lasts.

#

So EVERY track effectively has both Ambient, and Battle music, baked into it's structure, and can be adapted to suit the situation.

#

I'm hugely oversimplifying it of course, but I'm not actually a composer myself, I only understand the general theory.

#

Now, DooM is a level based game, so this doesn't totally line up...

But it would basically mean you could have specific tracks for specific locations, that shift their pace and what part of the total track is actively playing, based on the action at the time (combat or exploration).

#

So like, Whiterun would have its own track, and what you hear would usually be the slow part. But during a Dragon Attack, or the Battle for Whiterun, or even just running from the guards, it shifts into the fast part.

You're still listening to the Whiterun track, but it's reacting to what you're actively doing.

livid ingot
#

I like that idea, dynamic music

dim reef
#

So much so i imported that track into Skyrim so it plays during the whiterun and final battles

#

It's not quite the same since it's not dynamic like NV but it works well

gloomy anchor
dim reef
#

Yeah. Got a bit carried away.

#

But that's a good example. They should do dynamic music like that in ES6 as well

#

It's not possible for the entire open world ofcourse but for specific quests It's definitely doable

feral viper
#

I can't comment on Hoover Dam, as every time I've gotten to that sequence I'm so done with the game I'm barely even conscious, but if they did something similar then kudos to them.

#

I do think it's definitely doable in an open world game, however. It just means every track is going to be composed with these sorts of sections.

#

The bigger issue is...

Most composers, video game, music or movie, are traditionally trained and minded. So these sorts of structural differences from traditional composition aren't something that comes naturally.

Just like the experimental multilayer compositions some visionary composers are experimenting with in orchestral performances, where what you hear is different depending on where you're sitting, meaning they CAN'T be recorded as played back in normal ways.

#

These sorts of modern innovations in compositions are borderline visionary. And honestly, while they're definitely good at what they do, I don't think Zur or Soule are wired for that.

pulsar root
#

Music is very subjective and IMO sometimes the music doesn't hit hard enough for me at times(At least with Elder Scroll Games). There are some good tracks but few(Like Skyrim's whole Dragonborne track or well the main menu one once it gets going, yeah that one is good

dim reef
#

But a composer alone ain't enough. You also need good audio directors to direct them

#

And now that i think about it, Soule i think has done that too. Not to mention when he scored Skyrim he went back and reiterated a lot of Morrowind's music to get in the feel before working on Skyrim.
The composers are good, Bethesda just needs to utilize their capabilities well

feral viper
feral viper
dim reef
#

Well there is the finale of NV and recently he did Rise of Ronin which has dynamic tracks as well

feral viper
#

Never heard of Rise of Ronin.

dim reef
#

It's a Team Ninja game. You know the guys who did Nioh and Ninja Gaiden

feral viper
#

But having looked at the New Vegas tracks, it's definitely not what I'm talking about.

Those are variations on a track for different situations.

dim reef
#

Damn it the message cut off

#

Oh he's also done Crysis. That had dynamic music too iirc

feral viper
#

What in talking about is dynamic use of a track it's self.

For instance, you cut a track into 10 parts. 4 parts are slow, 4 parts are fast, 1 is speeding up, and 1 is slowing down.

Each of these parts is structured in such a way that it can follow any of the similar pace, so they can be looped together for as long as needed, or be followed by a transitional part.

So, you can spend 10 minutes listening to the slow section as you explore, but when combat starts, the specific active part ends, the transition plays, and then the fast parts loop.

When the action is over, the active part finishes, the transition is played, and then the slow part returns.

#

The traditional approach is to have whole distinct tracks at different paces or tempos to reflect particular activities. Some, like say Mass Effect, use the same general musical stings throughout to feel cohesive. Others, like TES, have radically different tracks for different activities.

#

But where Mick Gordon innovated, was having a SINGLE track, not variations of similar tracks. And that track could be reconstructed however was needed to fit with the activity, even on the fly.

dim reef
#

I get what you're talking about but that's overall the same process. Mick just used it to a much greater extent. Having track syncs across multiple activities in the same level

feral viper
#

Though, I should be honest, I don't think I've ever played a Team Ninja game, so I wouldn't actually know what they do.

dim reef
#

Remedy uses this as well. If you've played Control there's a level called the Ashtray maze which plays a song called Take Control which is broken up and meshed into multiple parts, some low temp, some high and they're synced with the player actions

feral viper
#

Ok, yeah, that's a great example too.

The Ashtray Maze was, honestly, one of the best parts of gaming in recent years.

dim reef
#

Yeah and they one upped even that with Alan Wake 2's dance segment

feral viper
#

Speaking of music, I swear those games exist only for the developers band to get air time

#

And I am ok with that.

dim reef
#

Yeah. Some devs just love music and i like that too

#

It's especially endearing when the band and devs develop a lasting relation that goes on for decades

#

But back to ES, yeah. I'd love some unique dynamic music catered to quests

feral viper
#

Quests, locations, narrative beats, characters... Just SOMETHING.

tardy atlas
#

I don't like the idea of combat being a different mode of play so to speak where it's like oh combat mode on here's the music, I'd rather it be one seamless experience

dim reef
#

I don't turn it off but i replace it with Fallout combat music because i prefer it more than ES's combat tracks

tardy atlas
#

Vats makes it feel like a different mode in Fallout and I guess I feel okay with that

#

What's the Elder Scrolls I tend to prefer more environmental feeling

dim reef
#

I love the ambient tracks but the combat tracks kinda lack the punch for me. Other than the standout track here and there like "One They Fear" most of them never clicked for me

tardy atlas
#

Where is Fallout feels artificial from the get-go

dim reef
#

But i adore Fallout's combat tracks. Vats or not, they sound amazing. For Skyrim i replaced all the dragon combat music (except one they fear) with Fallout 76 music since that has scorchbeasts which are essentially fallout-ized dragons

eager remnant
feral viper
#

Yeah, the nature of combat music in TES, or all Bethesda games, isn't great.

#

That doesn't mean the tracks themselves are bad, but how they're used is... Well, terrible

#

They basically serve as Spidey Sense for enemies.

pulsar root
#

I keep the music on. Never been that type of gamer unless I'm listening to specific music but thats an outlier. And to be fair I'd love to have music that gives me a Spider sense IRL >.>

glad cypress
#

I tend to like combat music, sometimes they're just not good tracks, but the concept isn't an issue for me

nimble pond
#

I only use combat music if I'm roleplaying a character that has a few bolts and screws loose in their noggin that they imagine things like combat music.

#

Hm, would be kinda neat if "combat music" only triggered and played while you have a bard companion traveling with you

#

Also, animal companions (which are already in the game), could serve as a "security alarm." Like if a creature is sneaking up behind you, your dog would start barking to alert you.

feral viper
#

I think Morrowind is what ultimately sullied my opinion of Battle Music.

Nothing snaps you out of things quicker than Battle Music starting, when a Cliff Racer spots you from a klick away through the fog, and you have to stand there waiting for it to finally come into view.

glad cypress
#

I think battle music should be some of the best tracks in the game if it's going to be repetitive, and sometimes it's just rather bland. I'm a sucker for main theme or unique boss battle music though. Honorable mention to the Halo theme and various JRPG tracks too

dim reef
#

They've been getting better with the placement of combat music over time.
Fallout 4 onwards they introduced that finisher system, essentially when combat ends the music doesn't just stop. It slows down, plays the final couple of notes from the track and then stops

#

They could add something like that for the beginning of combat music so when it switches from ambient to combat, it's more fluid

hardy quest
#

Can anyone here please confirm if the Undaunted Celebration on ESO has a passive xp bonus like other events or not?

The official website and ESO hub do not state a passive XP bonus

But brave AI response was Yes there is a passive xp bonus.

I'm getting conflicting answers

feral viper
#

This particular channel is mostly about the single player games. You sound have to check the ESO discord.

gloomy anchor
feral viper
#

Hot take...

No music at all.

#

Double down on environmental sound and ambiance.

dim reef
#

Nah. More music. Disable environmental sound and ambience instead VaultBoySunglasses

pulsar root
eager remnant
# feral viper Hot take... No music at all.

I do a few "no music" playthroughs in each Bethesda game. For me, the experience is quite unlike a music playthough. On the one hand, these playthroughs lack some of the cinematic atmosphere music can provide. But on the other hand, they can feel more immersive. If the sound effects are well done these playthroughs can feel very immersive, almost like walking through a real-life landscape. I like to do both, depending on my mood.

dim reef
#

That's why i always walk around while listening to ambient music irl so the in game experience feels even more immersive

tardy tiger
#

I'm reminded that there's environmental sound for the glaciers in Winterhold (the hold).

I should probably try a no music run.

night ember
nimble pond
#

I'll say this. I think it's the repetitiveness. A wolf comes at me ^cue combat music^ a troll comes at ^cue combat music^ a ladybug comes at me ^cue combat music.^
It loses it's value and just becomes irritating with the overdone repetitiveness.

Now if they did some badass battle theme that was designed ONLY for Alduin. You know, give it meaning, unique. Not some music that you play for a one-time boss, and then over and over again everytime you run into a hostile lil ladybug. It completely removes the power and adrenaline from the tune.

#

Like in FF7, when Those Who Fight Further kicks on for that one fight, immediate adrenaline rush. That inner hellfire awakens lol

Ridley, even Bowser lol

#

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pqzLg_q0_Wg&pp=ygUPQm93c2VyIHJpY2hhYWRi

YouTube
RichaadEB
Bowser's Theme - Super Mario 64 (Metal Cover by RichaadEB)

"Bowser's Theme" from Super Mario 64 cover from RichaadEB
Subscribe: http://bit.ly/2XHTZw2 | Merch: http://www.richaadeb.com/merch
Patreon: https://bit.ly/supportRich | Stream "Bowser's Theme" https://ffm.to/k19rkkn.OYD

Stream HERE: https://ffm.to/k19rkkn.OYD

Join my Discord: https://discord.gg/NAc6MzU

(I'm learning how to play drums and its...

▶ Play video
dim reef
#

They have slightly improved on it with newer games as well. High level enemies have dedicated combat tracks that don't play with low level enemies. (In skyrim only dragons had separate combat tracks)
We just need more of that

nimble pond
#

Personally, I feel like not every entity in the game needs battle music. I'd just save it for the more memorable battles and enemies. Make it iconic. And so it's less repetitive, causing the tune to lose it's magic. It's like back in the day when I used a radio, a new song comes out that sounds good, then they overplay it every 5 mins to the point where you are sick of it.

feral viper
#

Big moments and boss fights, basically.

At most, I'd say a unique battle composition for the climax of the major stories.

#

But really, so long as it's not country or folk inspired, I'll take just about anything.

#

76s music was just dreadful because of that.

No offense, but Country Roads is a terrible song.

timid drum
#

careful, you'll awaken the raiders

feral viper
nimble pond
#

Perhaps the Thalmor will have someone they favor installed as the Emporer now. The Elder Council is probably corrupted. This would allow Thalmor to destroy the Empire from the inside out as well as give the Thalmor beneficial control over Empire troops and assets. Sound familiar?

#

Let's say next game is in Hammerfell at least, if not both that and High Rock. But anyway, it could end up being a 3v3 war. Thalmor, Empire(Cyrodiil) & Orcs vs. Reds, Brets, & the Nords.
We'll just guess and say High Rock despite being supporters of the Empire before such an event were to occur.., would end up seeing the writing on the wall (or just end up being attacked as well, under Thalmor's directive) and send forces to aid in defending against the invasion and occupation of Hammerfell. And the Nords could see the same and agree to a 'temporary' truce, with an increase in stormcloak numbers due to most Empire troops in Skyrim converting to the cause in disgust at Cyrodiil's betrayal.

#

It may not happen that way at all. But it is was interesting thinking about it.

dim reef
#

I would be very dissapointed if the empire just collapses by ES6. I want an all out warfare all across Tamriel

#

But i fear that's what they might do to avoid referencing prior choices

pulsar root
#

I hope not but.. in a completely different discord a lot of people seem to be in favor of that. 🙁

dim reef
#

Man. I would actually be hella mad if they just don't deliver on the all out war. They've been building that up for so long

feral viper
#

I can tell you what I WANT... Or what I EXPECT.

pulsar root
#

I speculate, that many chars from Skyrim will not be making a return. Cause reocurring chars is hated at Bethesada....(Thats probably the most salty take I have)

nimble pond
dim reef
#

I don't care about the state of the empire. I just want the war. Like they can lose and I'll be fine with that too but just give me a war

#

Don't just handwaive it all in the background

feral viper
#

I suspect that the Empire will just collapse to Cyrodiil off screen, and well never really get any details about it beyond vague statements. And in doing so, the Civil War in Skyrim will exome irrelevant.

nimble pond
#

Oh I think it would be a pretty big, and bloody war.

dim reef
#

I hope to Azura they don't but i think they will

feral viper
#

What I WANT, is something far more grandiose and... Violent.

pulsar root
#

I want the Empire to live but..... yah I already stated that

feral viper
nimble pond
#

The Thalmor may retreat all the back to Summerset Isle and reform with their other allied races and have an even larger war in the game after. Having to invade Summerset to put an end to the Thalmor once and for all. But even in their last stand, I think they will succeed in whatever mission goal.

dim reef
#

I personally don't care if it lives or collapses. I just want an actual war to happen and not just be written out off screen

#

Almost the entire Civil War and main questline of Skyrim just hammers the idea in that a war is coming. If they just write it out off screen i really can't be excited for any future foreshadowing

feral viper
#

For instance... My ideal?

Tullius is killed in Skyrim, and the Imperials largely scattered.

In response, the Empire recalls General Decianus to address the situation, and he leads a 2 year campaign through Skyrim, brutally slaughtering the Stormcloaks and their supporters. The result is that the rebellion ends, but Skyrim is left in a poorer state.

Meanwhile, in wake of the Emperor's assassination, the Elder Council is slow to anoint a new Emperor. They are hesitant to approve Mede's adoptive son, because there's no precedence for adoption into the line, and to his credit, said son does not push the issue.

Meanwhile, General Ionna leans that the Council had something to do with the Emperor's death, and tries to take that information to Decianus in Skyrim. She's assassinated eneroute, but the message makes it to the general despite that.

#

Decianus then publically announces his accusation against the Elder Council, and marches south with his legions.

The Elder Council responds, dispatching forces to oppose him, and orders additional legions pulled from the Dominion border to do so.

The prospective heir is given several legions by the General in charge of the border, and marches north. But instead of going to link up with the Council forces already near Bruma, turns east and marches into the Imperial City, putting the Council it's self to flight. He declares himself Emperor, and sends most of his army back to defend the border, while taking the rest north.

The first battle of the ensuing civil war sees the Council force defeated by Decianus and the new Emperor's combined forces, though Decianus is killed in the process.

The resulting split of Emperor and Council loyalists causes the Empire to descend into civil war. But the Emperor does not dislodge the legions from the Border, and the General there refuses to pick a side. As such, the Dominion can't directly invade, and they fear that whoever wins the civil war will now have far more forces than they did before

#

Interesting... Wonder what triggered that...

#

Anyway, the result is that the Dominion opts to invade Hammerfell again, trying to circumvent the defensive lines of Cyrodiil's borders, and grab land while the Empire is in chaos.

#

Effectively, blending Caesars Civil War, the War of the Second Triumvirate, and the Invasion of Poland, to set the wider continental status of the period.

nimble pond
#

Sounds intriguing.

For me, I just like the idea of fighting an intimidating force of combining Thalmor forces with a corrupted Empire. And throw in the orcs for even more brute strength. I'd just love to be up against all that.

radiant moss
noble verge
dim reef
#

The redguards can handle it. They're like the god race of Tamriel

noble verge
#

Looking at their history, they've got just as many military defeats as the other provinces.

#

They were conquered by the Camoran Usurper, then later on lost a war against Skyrim during the Interregnum.

feral viper
dim reef
#

Didn't Tiber Septim himself had trouble conquering them? Or was that a different place?

noble verge
#

He conquered them, then Cyrus spearheaded a rebellion that forced the Empire to grant concessions to the province.

feral viper
#

Tiber waited for a civil war, than helped one side.

#

He sided with the Forebears against the Crowns.

#

Though really, the Redguard are a prime example of how naturally gifted fighters (in so much as that is a thing) and warrior cultural ethos mean jack squat against professional armies.

#

Warrior Cultures develop into Militarist Cultures, or they die out. Those are the only options

noble verge
#

The idea I'd have for Hammerfell would be the Dominion not invading by land, but primarily posing a naval threat while keeping the bulk of their land forces on the Cyrodiil border.

feral viper
#

Yeah. The issue with the status quo is, of the Dominion invaded by land, the Empire would invade the Dominion. If the Empire invaded Hammerfell, the Domino would invade them.

So you need something that would keep one or the other occupied, in order to drive the crisis in Hammerfell

#

Something that keeps one from being able to attack the other, but also allows one to move on a 3rd party.

noble verge
#

I also want to see rifts and rivalries between the Thalmor, such as perhaps disagreements over whether or not to make use of Daedra like Naarifin and the Camoran Usurper did.

dim reef
#

They could just make up magical planes and use airforces instead

#

It's fantasy. We don't need to stick to medieval era fighting tactics

noble verge
#

I want to see a quest where you have to take down a Dominion Sunbird.

dim reef
#

It's possible. With Starfield they showed they're capable of more vertical level design and movement

noble verge
#

Options could include:

-The Blades have rebuilt Lord Richton's airship but there's a pesky red dragon threatening to down it if it takes off.
-Help Nahfahlaar deal with some his former boss's employees who are trying to make an airship to aid in dragon hunting.

dim reef
#

If they're gonna bring an airship they should include some smaller escort fighters as well. Like a WW1 zeppelin esque experience

#

Heck maybe we can fly one ourselves. Those ship mechanics from Starfield must come in handy there

pulsar root
#

IMO with the victory over the empire the Thalmor should become increasingly overconfident. Not stupid, just overconfident, whenever the Second Great war comes around

noble verge
#

I think there ought to be a lot elves and Khajiit who feel that the Concordat was a raw deal for them.

#

Countless elves and presumably Khajiit died in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, yet all of their territorial gains were reversed, all just so the Thalmor could tell people on the other side of the world who they can or cannot worship.

nimble pond
# noble verge I feel like at that point it'd be stacking the odds against Hammerfell a little ...

Exactly. Total underdogs. The dark cloud of Thalmor control is coming. It's going to look like the end is near, but the resistance rises up. Not just Hammerfell, they can't do a 1v3, no way. But like I said in an earlier post today, forming alliance with High Rock & Skyrim to make it a 3v3. Still underdogs tho against the might of the Thalmor, Corrupted Empire, & the Orcs.

Oh yea, and there's you. They always give us some key position to play, lol. So wherever we go, we will probably offer significant aid (Hammerfell perhaps) to the fight as well, even if it gets written off in a cliffhanger way.

tardy tiger
feral viper
#

And the Dominion.

People like to portray that Hammerfell did what the Empire couldn't, while at the same time claiming the Empire defeated the Dominion and left them weak enough to conquer before chickening out.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the Redguard resisted a still strong Dominion, or barely held back an already beaten foe.

#

But this is one of the problems you get into when writers and players have no understanding of warfare or logistics.

dim reef
#

It's not stated how they pushed them out. Just that they did, so it can go both ways. Maybe the Thalmor were temporarily exhausted while fighting the Empire that they chose to stop the Hammerfell side of things.

feral viper
#

They didn't push them out. They fought to a stalemate until a second treaty was signed..

dim reef
#

Which resulted in them completely pulling out for now. So it is pushing out

#

For how long or in what state It's left vague. Whether the Thalmor really were weakened or they purposefully chose to avoid more conflict to prevent further loss

feral viper
#

We aren't sure if it was a complete pull out from Hammerfell. In fact, the conditions of the treaty are entirely unknown

#

But more or less, yes.

dim reef
#

I think the main obligations of the treaty were leaving the land they wanted alone

#

The ones they left the empire for

feral viper
#

Ultimately we won't know until a Hammerfell game.

#

I can pretty much guarantee that it'll be gibberish though.

tardy tiger
#

Even that's an if. Like we have no idea on what the full treaty between the Tribunal and the Empire is. We know parts but not the whole thing.

dim reef
#

We also know the "pushing out" heavily cost Hammerfell iirc

#

So when the Thalmor do wage a second war, things can get dicey

noble verge
# feral viper And the Dominion. People like to portray that Hammerfell did what the Empire co...

Based on what I've read, the Dominion's military was pretty bloodied at the end of the Great War. Naarifin lost his entire army, leaving behind only whatever garrisons were holding onto the conquered regions, while the Hammerfell invasion force crossed the desert, took heavy losses to take Skaven, then were pushed out and forced to retreat back across the desert while being harassed the whole way.

dim reef
#

Southern Hammerfell was reportedly entirely destroyed by the war so both sides took losses but the Dominion has the advantage of their hometurf still being mostly untouched

#

They can pull out and rebuild faster

#

This also makes me wonder. They devastated Southern Hammerfell even after taking heavy losses just crossing the desert. Quite a force to be reckoned with.

noble verge
#

But it also meant that they continued to bleed even after the Concordat, whereas the Empire was able to begin rebuilding immediately.

dim reef
#

It's left vague just how much they were hurt tbf. We don't hear any reports of their home turf bleeding much as we do from Cyrodiil and Hammerfell

#

They have the upper hand there. The other two had their hometurf torn apart, it'll take more effort for them to rebuild than the thalmor even if they took heavy losses

noble verge
#

They can have all the untouched territory they want, it won't matter if they lost too many people, especially considering how low elf fertility is.