#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 35 of 1

pulsar root
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They could of elaborated or done more about the Dunmer oppression in Windhelm(I do believe it was intentional on the devs part to show Dunmer are being treated badly)

inland shale
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Ambiguous at best, unless one wants to jump to conclusions.

feral viper
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Half the Stormcloaks would disagree.

Dengier, Skald, and Layla all view the Empire as the enemy, and don't give a rats ass about the Thalmor.

tardy tiger
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You live in the Gray Quarter?
"I'm a Dark Elf and I live in Windhelm, so yes, I live in the Gray Quarter.
You must be new around here, or you'd know they don't let my kind live anywhere outside that slum."
Aval Atheron

What do you know about Windhelm?
"It's an old city, I can tell you that. The Palace of the Kings is ancient. It's not the friendliest place for outsiders. The Dark Elves were all forced to live in a slum called the Grey Quarter. The Argonians can't even live inside the walls. They're all stuck out on the docks. Still, Candlehearth Hall's got decent food and cheap bunks. You could do worse."
Alfarinn

Only thing we know for Khajjit is specifically the Caravans

You mentioned trading caravans?
"Yeah, these Khajiit make a living traveling the roads and selling their wares. It's got to be tough. Skyrim's a hard enough land when you've got a roof over your head. Worst thing is, nobody wants them in the cities. Nobody trusts them."
Ysolda

The other cities don't have issues because it's a Windhelm issues of Nords on the others. Even Jarl Brunwulf mentions Ulfric's "outsiders" thing being a thing shared with the populace which is why can't let the Argonians in for their safety. Windhelms the only place where they segregate.

Will you let the Argonians into the city?
"I'd like to, but it's not as simple as that.
Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted.
Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety.
Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone."

And from what script notes says for Ulfric's "outsiders" (script notes being for the voice actor like Character y is hiding something).
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/268213245939154954/1313625230496891001/image.png?ex=68a99094&is=68a83f14&hm=122345da27ff9b3b4012fcf8feda03e876d71b3a8bed2beb13a082412b5e6fb7&

feral viper
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I'll give Bethesda one thing...

For all their generally bad writing and sloppy worldbuilding, their near prescience regarding political issues is... Shocking.

inland shale
feral viper
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Calling their behaviour paranoia is... Generous.

Dengier is clearly suffering from dimentia.

Skald actively attacks his citizens for wearing armour.

And Layla is... Well, universally incompetent in a way that would have been parody in 2011.

tardy tiger
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I think Dengier's dementia is actually mentioned in the Prima Guide. Prima Guide where it can randomly have information that should be ingame. Like why Riften has a borded up gate.

Skald is having issues due to Daedric shannigans affecting Dawnstar.

inland shale
# tardy tiger > You live in the Gray Quarter? > "I'm a Dark Elf and I live in Windhelm, so yes...

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here , you copy pasted a lot of old stuff we already discussed. Also there is a lot of negative and positive takes about Ulfric in-game that are based on conjecture, speculation or NPC's faction, Ulfric himself never race-baits with his in-game dialogue. Galmar, his second in command, for example says he does not hate non-nords but opposes tyranny, and that his fight is specifically with the Aldmeri dominion.

inland shale
feral viper
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Galmar also uses baiting language like 'True Nord'. Which is blatant race-bating.

inland shale
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That sounds like a cultural thing within the Nord group "True nord" vs "Milk drinker"

feral viper
inland shale
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I'm not sure I would entirely agree, if you do Mephala's quest you can get a negative take on Balgruuf too

feral viper
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Once again, 'Choice Driven Narratives' and 'Alternate Endings' actively make RPGs worse.

inland shale
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he has some skeletons in his closet

feral viper
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Oh absolutely. But everyone in positions of power do.

Being remotely competent doesn't mean being a saint. It just means being remotely competent.

tardy tiger
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Galmar literally has script notes about his own issues.

PC: Do you oppose anyone who's not a Nord?

Galmar: I oppose tyranny. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I am a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That is a fact, a fact I'm proud of. There is no shame in that. Read your history.

Script notes “defending his patriotism (and bigotry)” (trying to get an image of this line though

(Have an image of the below posted in lore because I can't upload to this channel.)

Tekla (Steward)
As further evidence of his growing dementia, Dengeir names his house servent Tekla as his Steward when the Stormcloaks restore to him the position of Jarl

feral viper
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Though I'd argue that Saints are also not actually laudable, but that's a whole other topic.

feral viper
inland shale
feral viper
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They're usually found in the CK, as addendums for the dialogue trees.

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They include things like directing notes, translations of some Dovah'zuhl, etc.

tardy tiger
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You have to open up the creation kit (Construction set for older games).
It can be useful for intent or translations. Oblivion's has translations and pronunciation for Umaril's Ayleidoon.

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Though script notes reminded me of something.

Stormcloaks don't have "ranks" the names you gain are effectively your Nord Surname.

Soldier lines
Bone-Breaker - greeting an officer by name
Snow-Hammer - saluting a well respected officer by name
Stormblade - saluting a highly respected officer by name

Praefect. - greeting an officer
Tribune - saluting a well respected officer
Legate - saluting a well highly respected officer

inland shale
tardy tiger
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His line is one of the why'd you join the war things instead of the faction intro which threw me off for a bit.

jade plover
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where is all this lore? i thought there is only a rule book for dnd than contains lore

jade plover
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i agree with you, it would be really better to have more connection between games events. but this is against bethesda philosophy i think. they don't want to make players play all the previous parts to understand the next one

jade plover
dim reef
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RPGs have gone through quite a lot of changes over the years. If you look at some early 90s rpgs, most of them don't have branching choices and alternate endings.

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Even now look at games like KCD2, it doesn't have alternate endings. Just small changes here and there. Does it not count as an rpg?

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The genre is pretty vast, linear and open both work under it

tardy tiger
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I feel it depends on choices.

And man are like 90% of "Evil" choices are just badly written nonsense. Most "Evil" choices are the most obvious Chaotic evil thing that would rarely make sense with most peoples characters.

It's stuff like
Help village for free
help village for a price
Suplex the villages children into a active volcano. (Evil)

noble verge
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I'd rather spend eternity getting nagged by Kreia over my choices than not have choices at all.

dim reef
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Well i despise Kreia so idk about that

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Come to think of it i despise most of Kotor 2's writing

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Still a great game but the writing makes my eyes roll

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Although Getting nagged by your companions for your choices is a good concept. Bethesda executed it well in FO4

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Starfield also had tons of companion comments and dialogue chains about your choices which is nice.
I'm hoping ES6 does that as well

noble verge
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I liked how Starfield companions remembered what dialogue you used with them in previous conversations.

dim reef
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True. They really upped their game with the dialogue branches

slow loom
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Most games that have multiple endings still have a canon ending. Just like how some games let you choose a character but one is canon and the other is not.

feral viper
solid lance
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So is there a logistics reason behind oblivion remastered not getting the CC? Is it just cause they won’t want to or would it be a pain in the ass to implement

dim reef
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Epic probably won't like a game licensing their engine to release free tools for modding/creating extra content

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Even if the underlying engine is still Gamebryo, it's laced with UE5 now

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So they'll need to license tools for the engine to whoever they'll be commissioning to make CC content

tiny sapphire
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Absolutely a theory. I’ve been debating myself for a month now. I think es6 is gonna be all of Tamriel. ESO built out all the major locations. Starfield built out the ability to do size with 1k worlds. And it’s Todd’s last scrolls game. Starfield isn’t bad, it’s an experiment of size disguised as a game to be tested. Map the past for the future. The past is literally all of Tamriel. Ship building. Base building. And a Cold War that’s about to go nuclear. Two provinces is too small after how big starfield is. Doesn’t make sense. Bannerlord 2 does this beautifully with commanders in charge of armies wrecking other commanders and their armies. The sky isn’t the limit with modding, and it’s the biggest 4d move I can think of. Again, lots of hopium, but I’ll die on this hill. The size of Bethesda team, the fact Microsoft is placing a bet on them, the fact that they hired specifically a guy who’s a lead quest designer who worked on mass effect 3. The mass effect where it’s basically ww2 but space. The fact they haven’t released it because the tech isn’t there, kinda hard to take your pick of a huge battlefield of it crashes. Again, I know nothing, but I’m willing to bet that’s what it is. If I’m wrong, then oh well, but Bethesda is known for coming in with an absolute knockout that just annihilates the competition

pulsar root
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Its not going to be all of Tamriel. The multiple world spaces of Starfield is what damaged it because having all the interesting local all split up to 1000 planets. One World space is already a big effort to put all the detail just for one province. Doing more then one or multiple world spaces will put even a bigger effort behind it and no using proceedural generation tech isn't going to make it better.

I liked Starfield but it did depart from the usual BGS formula with MOST of its locations all over the place and a lot of procedurally generatered made it repeat... like a a lot instead of Handmade

Adding literally more then 5 provinces is... a massive deal and I don't think Bethesda is aiming to recreate Starfield but Elder Scrolls edition. Its better they focus on one province per game. It works, no need to reinvent the wheel.

tiny sapphire
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I could be wrong 🤷🏼‍♂️ but I’ve been right about things like this before but you don’t know me so you can’t really take my word for it

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I could be losing my mind. Absolutely, but 2+2=4.

eager remnant
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Howard has never said TES6 will be his last Elder Scrolls game.

opaque ingot
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Todd Howard is so cool. His aura is great.

static briar
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He's a made up man, meant to sell you Bethesda games

slow loom
dim reef
slow loom
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Well thats lucky because i was worried for a hot minute.

tiny sapphire
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Then maybe I’m smoking hopium 🤷🏼‍♂️ but I’m gonna hold the line on this hill broskis.

slow loom
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I can see TES6 being closer to a live service game where it gets substantial updates for years with fairly major expansions. If they get the tech right then they wouldn't need to make a new game for ages after.

dim reef
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That's what they do anyways with Creation Club. No need to turn a game into live service for that

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They even settled some legal mcguffins they had with voiced CC content and we got a bunch of major fully voiced creations

nimble pond
# tiny sapphire Absolutely a theory. I’ve been debating myself for a month now. I think es6 is g...

Starfield ain't that big. It's just the spread that gives the illusion. Like for a second, pretend and take all the locations and cram them together onto a single province, a single map location, and there ya go. With TES2, there was distance, but also basically infinite locations as well that gave the illusion of size.

Nothing to me suggests TESVI will be all of Tamriel though. At most, maybe two provinces. But it could just be one again. Though, looking back at Skyrim and how well it was already filled out and well-detailed, over almost two decades ago, one province now just doesn't feel like enough to me anymore. I like the idea of simultaneous detailed focus on two cultures in a single game, both separately and also how they intertwined with each other. But idk, another viable approach is focusing on one province, but taking some smaller areas of multiple provinces relevant to the focused province. Like an area or two of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and High Rock, all focused around Hammerfell. And don't forget Orsinium could likely be in there. Though as an alternative, I would be open to the idea of giving water alot more attention and detail so it basically becomes an interesting province of it's own in a way, and include that with whatever single province they do, so it'd be like having two.

The main argument over this is some folks feel Bethesda does not do well even with one province, so they feel adding more would just make it worse somehow? Anytime they change up anything there's always some complaint about it somewhere and there are also some people out there that just really don't like change in general.

nimble pond
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Curious question, but for the sake of conversation.. Let's just pretend that for TESVI, they're doing the province of Skyrim again, but today, just almost two decades later on different technology. How much more different do you think it would look in comparison to the original? How much more relevant detail would be added to the province of Skyrim? Would it really be all that different or that much more than the original?

dim reef
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More Cheese

nimble pond
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Valid

nimble pond
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Anyway, I think it'd be pretty cool if they invested into ships to give each culture their own distinct Navy. Not just the generic ships that are all the same, but really giving each culture their own unique ship designs and identity separate from the others. Like how different could an Argonian Naval fleet look from a Redguard one? Different types of naval weaponry and technologies. And also, how different could they design ecosystem of the waters on the east compared to the west? How things like temperature and climate factor into it? The animal life and vegetation. Perhaps even some parts of the water may be a different color entirely. And the cool thing about water is there is plenty of space in it to create some unforseen event in the lore and spring up new, offshore lands to explore around these provinces.

slow loom
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Usually when companies make biggest worlds they just spread the content out further or use filler content to fill out the world. I don't think TES needs content that feels less important and more copy/pasted than before. I don't need a mission board in every town with radiant quests.

pulsar root
# nimble pond Curious question, but for the sake of conversation.. Let's just pretend that for...

For the sake of argument. It would much better, graphically. Maybe slightly bigger(Because I believe Bethesda games for ES need to have a mild to moderate size increase, not massive like other big AAA games. I also imagine the cities to be bigger, more dungeons yadda yadda.

I'm more concerned with the mainquest storyline being bigger and longer, thats usually a criticism I always with their games but I digress

feral viper
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I would expect a redo of Skyrim to be bigger, and more visually engaging, and maybe actually HAVE 7000 steps to High Hrothgar...

But in terms of art style, worldbuilding depth, and overall range of stuff... I wouldn't expect much different.

nimble pond
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But that's what I'm saying. Skyrim was already done quite well as a single province game and on lower tech standards all those years ago. Even the graphics upgrade from then till now isn't that big of a change. Now, if it was a change from say.. TES2's graphics, then yeah okay that's a big leap there. But also, I've often seen it said that graphics are usually low on the totem pole of concerns by fans when it comes to TES.

feral viper
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Well, Skyrim was done, at least.

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It wasn't sabotaged, like Cyrodiil, but I also wouldn't say it was done well.

nimble pond
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Also, off the topic but, I always thought it was 7k steps? No? I just remember Todd talking once on some video saying it was actually 7k steps they counted? Maybe I was confused or misremembered though?

feral viper
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He said if they said in lore it was 7000 steps, he would make sure it was 7000 steps.

Must have forgotten that when he did the check, because there's only like 720

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Even if you count walking steps, rather than stairs, you only get up to about 3400

nimble pond
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Ah ok

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It sounds cool in the lore. But personally I think I'd only want to climb 7,000 steps once and then never again, lol. Sounds painful

feral viper
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That's the beauty of fast travel.

nimble pond
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Not on a new playthru

noble verge
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Or in Survival mode

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Gotta make the journey up every time you want to visit the monastery.

feral viper
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That is the price you pay for survival mode.

dim reef
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Why can't you just take a carriage up top

slow loom
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7000 steps would be about 175 meters tall which i could see as doable. There are parts of the mountain that are just a dirt slope.

livid ingot
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Like, Todd, it's 2075, it's time to let the next generation take the reigns and develop TES:VII

pulsar root
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Sure. But I think they still appreciate it, they just don't push the graphics to their limit Looks at Sony and or CDProjektred.

dim reef
tardy tiger
noble verge
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Makes me miss having a boost pack like in Starfield.

opaque ingot
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What if for every copy of Skyrim Todd sells, he gets more powerful

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Buy Skyrim

tardy atlas
# feral viper I would expect a redo of Skyrim to be bigger, and more visually engaging, and ma...

While I completely agree with you there, principally speaking...

I think something that could actually get done, rather than a realistically sized Skyrim I'd rather have a spin-off set in a single hold, scale that hold up to Skyrim's World space size.

That would allow you to put a lot more detail into the world, even have some empty space between locations to fill with extra Dungeons and things like that. Rather than saving the entire province, focus on more local issues which could be no less dire.

glad shadow
feral viper
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Quick, someone bury my constant vitriol, we have celebrities a about.

eager remnant
feral viper
feral viper
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In this particular case, of course, I actually do agree with Zaric.

I think the focus on a whole province at a time is really little more than a gimmick that, more and more, is hurting the provinces themselves.

There's more than enough room to focus on regions WITHIN a province, and still have the game world just as large and just as detailed.

And without the need to constantly water down cultures and make them homogenous across large areas.

whole marsh
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Incase anyone was wondering, it has been 2,632 days since the TES 6 trailer. I wonder what Bethesda has been up to. 🤔

pulsar root
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Cooking.

feral viper
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Making 2 major games, and 2 mobile games.

tardy atlas
tardy atlas
feral viper
nimble pond
nimble pond
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And I think in a way, even though it did not cover all of High Rock nor Hammerfell, but really was centered around the Bay itself, TES2 felt more focused toward Breton culture.

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So it's just that covering the whole province is just convenient when focusing on a selected race. Plus, that's just the map was designed from the start, this here be land o' Wood Elves, and etc. Though I always thought it was a poor choice setting up the map like that, but what's done is done. You either have to work with what ya got or just toss it and start from scratch.

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But really I wouldn't even say the main focus is on each race themselves. I think there's more of a larger picture background focus (like the towers) in which thru every chapter (race) we finish exploring, we get one step closer to that final stage in the background that's been planned from the start. Exploring the races just gives a more detailed depth into that main story slithering in the back as we slowly get to it. Similar to a book.

pulsar root
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Its mostly "Whats going on in this province right now"

nimble pond
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Well yea, since we are in present time. But they do include past history of those races as well.

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I just never really liked the whole "this is the province of this race.. and so forth." I'd rather have had the opportunity to explore focus on different types of each race in each environment across Tamriel as each chapter of the main story is told, rather than the focus being set on one race in one environment at a time.

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Like yeah, it's cool Nords are the people of winter. But I'd like to also see what the Nords down in warmer climates, say Elsweyr, are all about later down the road and really give them their own identity in a different environment. And how they fit into the main story being told at the time in that set region.

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It's like yeah, in Skyrim, yeah the Khajiit were present, but really had no purpose being there besides just being there because the focus is all skyrim nords, nords, nords, being tied down to the main story being told at the time. Instead of like having a main story that involves each race, but a different variation of each race based on the set region(s). Like nords that live in a colder climate like Skyrim probably shouldn't be all that similar to ones living in a very different environment, like Elsweyr. Hopefully, they're not just walking around complaining about how hot it is and how they miss the soothing snowflakes of skyrim on their skin.

noble verge
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There's a culturally distinct Imperial group in Elsweyr.

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The Rim-Men, Imperial descendents of the Tsaesci.

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At the same time, most of the Khajiit in Skyrim weren't a diaspora, they were a foreign trading group capitalizing on the turmoil of the civil war to turn a profit.

nimble pond
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Yes, the caravan traders. But there was just so much more focus on nords, that honestly, it just overshadowed that.

noble verge
nimble pond
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Ah, so they just switched it around. Instead of complaining about being hot they complained about being cold. Lol

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But back to the point, I just thought it woulda been nice if each race (in their own variation based on whatever region(s) we are in) was more involved with whatever the current main story at hand, rather than one being in the spotlight with the rest of the races just being like background actors.

noble verge
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I think a big factor is simply that there aren't that many major diasporas away from their homelands in Tamriel. When the Empire isn't around to enforce Imperial cosmopolitanism, some provinces become very unwelcome for certain races

When there is a significant population of one race in a different province it's usually because something very big happened. Skyrim has a major Dunmer diaspora because of Red Year, and Elsweyr has an Imperial diaspora because of reprisals against the Tsaesci once the Second Empire collapsed.

nimble pond
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Instead of making the whole province unwelcoming, they could have just made certain regions in a province that way.. But I like the sometimes having a gathering of, I guess.. refugees of a race, more than usual in some region of a province because of like you said, some big event or catastrophe. But I think it would have been more interesting if it wasn't just Dunmer, but a couple of races all living in that region that were affected by the Red Year, for example.

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Basically there are opportunities to explore more racial matters, like slavery. Like with the Argonians and the Dunmer. But as it now, they already have all the races pretty much separated from each other for the most part.

devout violet
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Hi everyone 👋😊

fierce fable
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So let me guess no new elderscrolls was announced at gamescon?

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Just a bunch or reskinned bs and stuff we don’t need or asked for again? And still waiting for them to make a new console upgrade for fallout 76 with better graphics but I’m sure they gonna re release the same old titles again and again for the next 6 more years. Todd needs to step down already and get someone in who actually can get stuff done. This company will bury itself cause it will not be able to compete with new massive titles like the new gta. I don’t understand how it takes them 15 years to come up with a game and completely destroy it and release these titles half finished and buggy and it takes the mod community a month to make the entire game different and turn it practically into a AAA game make it make sense

dim reef
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Bruh. No one can compete with GTA. Do you even realize how big GTA is?

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Multiple big companies changed their own release schedules to account for it.

tawny token
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Hey, if there a dev ou wtv an employee who see this comment: show us something, it's been 7 years. 😕

nimble pond
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Yea, GTA is like an entire league of it's own.

nimble pond
# tawny token Hey, if there a dev ou wtv an employee who see this comment: show us something, ...

Well, I lost what I wrote, but to summarize..
I don't think we could even see TESVI till like Fall of 2027 at the earliest (provided the usa isn't completely destroyed beforehand ofc).
Phil Spencer stated in 2021 that TESVI would not drop until after Fable. Fable is currently targeting 2026. Likely, the very late Fall of 2026 since GTA6 is set for late spring / early summer of 2026.

So.. it could be another 1-2 years before getting anymore news. But I'd say at this point, a 2026 release for TESVI is.. way out.

P.S.
Xbox (whom Bethesda is under ownership), is targeting 2027 to release their next-gen console. So, I could see TESVI potentially being a launch title with that system. Which that should answer the question of that fella here who consistently asks about it releasing on next-gen consoles.

dim reef
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Bethesda's dev cycles aren't usually that long. Starfield was an exception given it's scope and covid limitations. It shouldn't take more than another year

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We could get something next year

nimble pond
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I mean it could be up to 2028. That would be roughly 5 years after starfield and as far as I've been told by more long-time followers of bethesda games, it's 4-5 years dev cycle is pretty much the norm for them.

inland shale
# nimble pond Basically there are opportunities to explore more racial matters, like slavery. ...

They used the refugee excuse to add dunmer and imperials. Orcs have strongholds since earlier. Some like bretons are reachfolk or newcomers. Khajit are mostly smugglers or thalmor agents. But there was little to no explanation of why argonians chose to come to Skyrim really. My guess if TESVI is in Hammerfell you'll get the same refugee background for nords and imperials maybe a few adventurers, argonians will say they like the heat on their scales but not sure about dunmer though.

tardy atlas
dim reef
livid ingot
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I've been a proponent for 2027 for a while now, but as we've gotten closer, 2028 looks equally if not more likely.

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But we'll see. 🤷

dim reef
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If ES6 entered early dev at the end of 2023, 2026 seems reasonable enough. At max 2027

gleaming flume
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4 year development? Nah not for am updated ES title. Looking at 2030.

dim reef
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Starfield took 5 years including covid limitations. I very much doubt an ES game with normal dev conditions would take 6 years.

feral viper
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Agreed.

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I doubt it'll take them more than 5 years. So a 2027-2028 range seems like the most likely.

Could it USE more time? Probably. But in the same thought, I'm not sure more time in the oven would actually benefit it either.

dim reef
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It might help some extra content because 4 and Skyrim had a LOT of cut content but the basics should be done

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Like if they make some goofy choices, time certainly won't help. I remember them cutting more unique Institute weapons in FO4 so they could reuse animations which is.. yeah... that kind of mindset certainly won't help

feral viper
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Yeah. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards more time not helping.

dim reef
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I'd say a 3-4 year full production window seems most likely. So yeah either 2027 or 28

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MAYBE 26 if our luck is good but it's not

feral viper
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Whatever the case, we will likely know 4-6 months ahead of the release date. That seems to be when they like to formally announce.

dim reef
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Starfield was announced an entire year before it's original release date iirc

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Yeah, more than a year. It was meant to launch on 11/11/22 and the trailer announcing that came out in June 2021

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Maybe we're not so far away from a trailer for ES6

tidal arrow
feral viper
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They need to stop releasing things on Nov 11

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The gimmicky number they've clung to for over a decade was adorable once. Now it's just disrespectful to veterans and service members in more than a dozen countries

timid drum
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^

tidal arrow
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Give me another October 23

dim reef
pulsar root
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Had me in the first half then lost me with the veterans comment.

dim reef
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Nov 11 is when WW1 ended iirc

feral viper
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And is a major holiday in all Commonwealth countries, large swaths of Europe, and is even an American holiday.

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You're right though, I was misremembering

feral viper
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More to the wider point, I think the fact Starfield was apparently a background project for decades, while ending up ... As it did, is a good indicator that more time does not equate to a better end product.

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Maybe Bethesda is actually better when the deadline sets a fire under them.

dim reef
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Starfield imo was more an issue of them biting off more than they could chew, space rpg games are just hard to get right. Obsidian struggled with it back in 2019 as well

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Heck even Bioware who are known for ME struggled with procedural maps back during Andromeda's development eventually switching to a couple handmade planets yet Bethesda were like "nah we can do it"

feral viper
pulsar root
#

Time wasn't the problem, I mean yeah it can be(Duke Nukem Forever) but execution is hard.

dim reef
feral viper
#

Some of the best games were, in fact, rushed to the finish line as well.

Thief: the Dark Project, for instance, as was Halo 2

dim reef
#

like do we really need to traverse 2 different star systems to do ONE quest?

feral viper
#

Honestly, I don't find Starfield's worldspace any worse than Oblivion's.

dim reef
#

i thought the general world building was fine, if a bit lacking

#

there's a good skeleton but it needs more meat

feral viper
#

That's been the general trend of Bethesda games for almost 2 decades.

dim reef
#

ES already some meat so i don't think they'll face as much problem there

feral viper
#

The meat.

#

Still, given that I am 95% sure I'm going to be unsatisfied, if not outright disappointed by the setting, the lore, the art and the story...

It's the mechanics I'm really interested in.

#

They've said they have a playable slice, and it's 'fun'... But they said the same about Starfield, which makes me hesitant.

slow loom
#

Can we all just stop wanting games sooner and sooner. We get so many bugged releases of big AAA titles and we don't need more. It will be done when it's done. Will it live up to the hype? Probably not because the hype hit it's pinnacle years ago when they released the trailer. It's almost guarenteed to disappoint quite a large portion of the audience.

#

At this point there are only a few companies that can live up to the hype. CDPR, Larian Studios and Rockstar are about the only ones capable of living up to the hype in the AAA space.

feral viper
#

I don't think a 4-5 year turnover is 'sooner and sooner'

pulsar root
#

mmm don't think Bethesda is rushing their ES games. Also its been awhile since the last mainline game.

dim reef
#

Wha? People didn't like Blades?
That is definitely a mainline game, Todd told me in my dreams

slow loom
#

Starfield only came out 2 years ago. I doubt ES was in full production before that.

feral viper
#

Though to be real, I think that whole fiasco was a great example why you don't have programmers and designers interact directly with consumers.

PR professionals exist for a reason. Communication is a skill, and not everyone has it.

dim reef
#

Todd knows how to do both somehow. People were genuinely quite hyped for Blades because Fallout shelter was a decent success

#

Then the game launched and it was just... fine. The mictotransactions and grinds certainly didn't help. By the time they tweaked all of it, it was too late. Everyone had moved on

#

A shame because it was fun. The core game itself wasn't bad. The gameplay was fun. It's just everything around it made it a chore.

feral viper
#

I am a supporter of microtransactions, personally.

At least in principle.

In practice, late stage capitalism rots even good ideas.

dim reef
#

They are fine in small quantities. But the way Blades did it is essentially the type you see in mobile games. Pay to skip waiting time especially was annoying

#

Because a major chunk of the game is all about waiting

feral viper
#

Yeah. They're designed more to squeeze as much money as possible out of something before cutting it loose to die, rather than actually maintaining ongoing income so you can continue supporting something.

dim reef
#

Atleast Creation Club is heading in a good direction

feral viper
#

For now.

#

Doesn't matter the company, or the brand. They all turn Weyland-Yutani eventually.

dim reef
#

True. The pricing for some of the creations are still absurd

#

But atleast we won't have to deal with stuff like left handed Anti Material Rifles anymore

feral viper
#

$250 horse armour when?

noble verge
glad cypress
slow loom
#

*game not included

dim reef
tardy atlas
# dim reef Atleast Creation Club is heading in a good direction

I think we're going to need an alternative to the Nexus though, since they are forbidding creating patches for creations out of legal concerns.

Unfortunately what makes the modding Community great in the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises is exactly the ability to build upon other mods and expansions to create greater and greater experiences.

Because Creations have to be Standalone products it means that they will be lesser as a result unfortunately.

#

There's no easy solution to this either other than to just accept a lesser result

dim reef
#

They'll figure something out. Skyrim's creations have plenty of mods that aren't removed

tardy atlas
#

That's really cool that nobody's noticed to report them

#

The early days of Creations were not so kind to the uploads

dim reef
#

It's likely not a big deal anymore. A bunch of mods are even directly based on creation content like that one expansion for the Shivering Isles creation

#

Saints and Seducers i think it's called

tardy atlas
#

Nobody's coming after mods and patches based on the creation Club add-ons, just the Creations by verified creators

feral viper
#

The legality of modding has always been a minefield. It's just a minefield no one has wanted to try wading through yet.

dim reef
#

Although it does make things easier.

tardy atlas
#

Yeah I'm not trying to create some sort of classification for us to litigate, I'm just talking about how the Nexus responded to it

dim reef
#

But you can still download mods for paid creations on the older SE version where they haven't been injected into the game

#

So the legality of the whole thing is scuffed

#

I'm sure they'll find a way.

tardy atlas
#

Yeah I overwhelmingly want it to be better

feral viper
#

I mean, general sentiment for the world.

And yet...

#

Every day, I get closer and closer to viewing The Culture as the ideal dystopia

#

Slap Drones for everyone!

feral viper
#

Anyway, I bit the bullet last night, and started watching someone play Oblivion Remaster.

And while I did regret it almost instantly, It also reminded me of a point that doesn't get brought up a whole lot.

Prophecy. How it's used, how it's delivered, and what it means both to the narrative of the game and the metaphysics of the setting.

#

Morrowind and Skyrim, I think, encapsulate the better approaches to Prophecy in the entire series (including spinoffs).

In Morrowind, the Prophecy is given right from the start, but it takes time for it to be explored and understood (or misunderstood, as tends to be the case with so much of the lore community).

In contrast, Skyrim doesn't give you the prophecy until almost half way through (provided you never read Book of the Dragonborn, which frankly shouldn't even be in the game). Even though it's meaning is pretty clear, the game also at least gives lip service to the idea that it may not be for the best (and then immediately chickens out and does nothing with that idea, relegating it to navel gazing -doubly impressive, given Dragons don't have navels).

#

Oblivion and ESO are particularly weak in this regard, as they both give you the Prophecy early, and it's meaning is pretty blatant so long as you have two neurons to slap together.

#

Whether one likes it or not, Prophecy is an integral component to the setting, the game narrative, the theme and scene setting, and even the mechanics and delivery of the game it's self.

So it needs to be done with a degree of consideration and tact.

dim reef
#

Just because it's Martin who banishes Dagon

#

As if the rest of the shenanigans you do to even get Martin to that point don't matter

feral viper
#

Those people are wrong, and engaging in flawed hermeneutics

#

The Emperor, the literal Prophet in the context, spells out the end of the game for you.

'In your face I behold the sun's companion, that by Akatosh's divine light may we yet banish this coming darkness'.

pulsar root
#

Prophecies are a fantasy trope. There's nothing wrong with them, a world with Magic, Gods, and even cosmic beings from other realms and such. I think for the most part I am ok with either or(Prophecys meaning something, and the alternate view where prophies don't have to mean anything, "mortals"/ regular people sof said fantasy world make their own fate" I think the prophcey part where mortals are doomed to be bad guys(Especially if they have a tragic history...is kinda messed up.

But thats enough rambling on prophecy.

dim reef
#

I do wonder what daedric prince will get a focused dlc in ES6. Oblivion had Sheogorath, Skyrim had Hermaus Mora

feral viper
#

Beyond that caveat, I do otherwise agree though.

#

I am personally of the opinion that once you hit a crisis of a certain level, a Prophecy, and a Chosen One, becomes necessary.

If regular people can rise up and stop a literal apocalypse, well... The actual threat of that apocalypse is severely muted.

#

Now, regular people halting a crisis driven by other regular people? That's totally fine. No need for divine shenanigans there.

#

But when Bob the Farmer can, through sheer force of determination, punch the World Eater in the snoz and make him back down...

That doesn't make Bob look bad ass. It makes the World Eater look like a putz.

dim reef
#

It depends on the apocalypse itself imo. Dragon Age had the darkspawn which is pretty bad but it requires a specific kind of sacrifice to put down

#

So the threat is defeatable by normal people but it's also not winnable without a very specific and major sacrifice

feral viper
#

That's fair, and a good example.

noble verge
feral viper
#

And by Uriel's own lips at the very beginning of it.

#

Which, admittedly, isn't as much of a smoking gun as a god telling you you're chosen. And since people love to ignore Azura, it's only to be expected that they ignore Uriel.

noble verge
#

Skyrim also had a lot of pre-release discourse discussing and translating the prophecy, with even Kirkbride chiming in.

feral viper
#

Only thing that would have made Oblivion's prophecy more on the nose is if they said Son instead of Sun.

#

Though the Lore community would have found ways to pretzel themselves out of acknowledging it anyway.

feral viper
tardy tiger
feral viper
#

My overall point being, I know that there are those who say there was no prophecy in Oblivion. There always have been, and there probably always will be.

Todd Howard himself could outright state it, and they'd just ignore it like they do all the other evidence that they are wrong and continue with their 'Average Joe' position.

tardy tiger
#

Doesn't help prophecies are generally vague. So TES4 would've had one it's just it's going to be very vague on what's going on and who is what.

Even TES5s one never actually says what you do with Alduin. Just that he wakes up

'When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world'
'When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped'
'When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles'
'When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls'
'When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding'
'The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.'

feral viper
#

Bethesda writing bad prophecies is also a problem, yes.

#

Though that gets into the problems with how poor the setting is structured, and that's not a tirade I want to get into again today.

#

Back on topic, Prophecies are important to the setting as a whole. Regardless of what one thinks of said setting. And if there is any sort of mythic narrative involved, a Prophecy NEEDS to be an element of that.

But there are good and bad ways to handle, and delivery prophecy.

twilit night
nimble pond
feral viper
#

Nerevar was, according to some sources, one such product. So Boethia may be in the market for demi-god offspring.

#

Though, what the Nephilim were depends on the source... Some indicate they were the offspring of Setn and Clain, thereby being early Humans, while the Book of Enoch is the primary source of them being the offspring of humans and angels...

#

So, depending on which direction you viewed it, could be half-Daedra, or could just be like... Giants or other late-Dawn humans.

slow loom
#

I think in TES4 you are still mostly a nobody who was just in the right place at the right time which changed your destiny to be important. Being a chosen one with special gifts and just someone with a prophecy are different. One leans on divine gifts while the other is more of a hero that rises to the occasion.

One game I can think of where you aren't anything special is Kenshi. You are nothing at the start with no special gifts past the character creator. The reason most games use the chosen one or hero trope is to make the player instantly have stakes in the story and play an important role. There's a reason WoW always calls you The Champion even though there are literal millions of players who are called the same.

tardy tiger
#

Also a bit hard to still be a nobody in WoW when you've been involved in the defeat/death of very important antagonists.

feral viper
#

The HoK is to Martin, what Enkidu was to Gilgamesh.

They're hardly nobody.

dim reef
dim reef
slow loom
#

That depends on if you see a difference between a chosen one and a hero. I'd say Martin is the chosen one while you are the hero.

dim reef
#

They are both chosen ones

#

Martin can't win without you and you can't win without Martin

tardy tiger
#

Chosen one to stop Dagon
Chosen one to protect the other chosen one from the Sean Bean death curse until the time is right

dim reef
#

Also do all the fetch work while the other blades sleep in their fort

slow loom
#

Each to their own.

feral viper
#

The only reason a chosen one was even needed, was because Uriel was such an incompetent Emperor.

#

But that's a whole other barrel of fish.

feral viper
dim reef
#

Ig it was kind of used in Dawnguard with Serana but never with a player character

feral viper
#

I know, at least, what I want.

And what I expect.

feral viper
#

I fully expect that the next game will be Hammerfell, and the PC will be the Hoonding. The antagonist will ideally (in this expectation) be Satakal, or some similar manifestation from Redguard mythology, though most likely it will just be the Thalmor. Because big evul elfses am bad.

dim reef
#

Could be both. Another skyrim civil war/dragon crisis situation

#

Only this time i hope they're actually more connected to each other

#

I do want to see a full blown thalmor war. After all the build up in Skyrim it's only fair

eager remnant
# dim reef Only this time i hope they're actually more connected to each other

If this happens, I hope they are not connected. I hated the fact that the developers forced me to begin the main quest in order to do the civil war. I think all storylines in an Elder Scrolls game should be separate from each other, so we can pick and choose which storylines we want to do with each character we play.

dim reef
#

i thought you could just do that right away, it appears in the quest log right off the bat "join the legion" or "join the stormcloaks"

eager remnant
dim reef
feral viper
#

There's definitely good and bad ways to go about connections.

Skyrim's connections were terrible.

Oblivion's total lack of connections, also terrible.

Morrowind's connections? Great.

tardy tiger
#

The Civil war was intended to be more tied to the Main quest. Only some remnants remain ingame.

feral viper
#

Probably because it was a bad idea to begin with.

But you know... That just sums up the Civil War in general

tardy tiger
#

Really the execution which is a pain.

Being mostly fort sieges isn't great.

dim reef
#

Yeah. It's like a poor man's version of the Minutemen questline from FO4 except that actually had unique settlement quests (there are radiant ones too but the amount you need for the questline can be all unique)

#

The forts in skyrim have absolutely nothing unique

feral viper
#

The Bethesda engine just doesn't have the tools to handle anything approaching warfare.

#

There's a few camera-trick-y things they could do to make it sorta work, but if they wanted to actually do any sort of war story line the engine would need huge changes.

tardy tiger
#

I know up to high hrothgar of original main quest (at least 2009 version) which went like

Escape Helgen with Civil war Leader and their bodyguard

MQ102 Dephine would've appeared here but is also where you join the Civil war faction with an oath
MQ102DelphineWaitMarker
MQ102AJoinLegionInterrupted
MQ102ALegionOath1
MQ102BStormcloakOath1

MQ103 would be the jagged crown who's quest IDs are still used for it (unknown if the idea was still the same).

MQ104 is the Western Watchtower.
Legion goes to Fort Hraggstad with Captain Metilius to fight a Dragon
Stormcloaks go to Fort Amol with Sifnar Ironkettle to fight a Dragon

And then you go off to High Hrothgar
"I suppose you may as well go and see what these Greybeards want with you. | But don't forget that you're still in the Imperial Legion"

feral viper
#

Firing blindly, but I always got the feeling that it was changed to mimic the 'Pick a side' story of New Vegas.

The original story, my gut tells me, all led to a single ending. But New Vegas was so popular with its (inane) alternate endings Depending which side you picked, that they restructures to try and mimic it.

#

And doing a poor job of copying a bad idea just results in... Well...

tardy tiger
#

We already know TES is poor at choosing. Hence Dragon Breaks being a thing because they didn't want to choose for TES2

#

Gods i'd hate the reaction to calling TES5 a dragon break.

feral viper
#

It'll be the same as every game. The fanbase tends to cram Dragonbreaks in everywhere anyway.

dim reef
feral viper
#

Eeeh... I don't agree.

But I play a lot of strategy games, so I saw that whole sequence as barely coordinated chaos.

tardy tiger
#

That's kinda the problem with all RPGs tbf. Formation fighting is not a thing

dim reef
#

It was kinda chaotic but i loved the sheer scale of the whole thing. Way better than anything they've done before

pulsar root
dim reef
#

Yeah. The quest where you chase down the emmisary and hunter is another good example. So many things randomly teleporting around, you teleporting to random places. It was quite fun

tardy tiger
stone halo
#

No one in the other chat is helping so I came here. Breaching Security is bugged. The incriminating letter is missing and doing the quest Escape from Cidhna mine didn't help. I'm on console, Xbox.

feral viper
#

They can pull of spectacle sometimes, yeah.

But warfare is something very different. It requires coordination, cooperation, and a sort of order that their engine just can't do.

#

You end up with a sloppy Hollywood gaggle of people just running all over the place with no rhyme or reason to anything.

Mindless action for the sake of mindless action.

tardy tiger
#

That's also kinda the issue with main quests tbf.

always bigger then the engine will allow.

Dagoth Ur Shenanigans with the sixth house not doing much
Oblivion Crisis
Dragon Crisis

dim reef
#

Halo is probably the only franchise that managed to pull off large scale battles on such limited hardware.

#

Valve's games also had that issue. The final city 17 rebellion in HL2 only has like a couple soldiers fighting 4 or 5 rebels at max

tardy tiger
pulsar root
#

Sure but I think video games have their limits and don't 1:1 recreate reality or what their lore states and such. At least thats how I've always taken it.

nimble pond
#

I'd love like just at least one HUGE castle siege and field battle. I mean I want to be able to punch holes in the fortress and watch the bricks fly and fall out, towers collapse, set roofs on fire. Launch a cloud of arrows, or fireballs.. That's be cool to watch, 100 fireballs flying in the sky from a squadron of mages.
But I imagine the defenses would be pretty tough with cannons exploding the battlefield. Massive craters of fire left on the ground. Sort of a D-day beach landing. Which could be how it starts out, a naval warship assault from the bay. Have all the different flavors of war in it.
I think it'd be cool to have the choice of either attacking it or defending it, so you get to experience it from both sides in however it ties into questline.

dim reef
#

We could possibly do that now with ES6. The hardware is decent enough now

tardy tiger
#

And not having to be on the 360 or PS3

slow loom
#

Original Mount & Blade anyone?

tardy tiger
#

I think I played that. But Warband is messing with my memory.

slow loom
#

Mount & Blade released in 2008 and had 75v75 battles as a default. We've had the technology for a while to do large scale battles, you just have to be smart about it.

feral viper
#

The tech is definitely there. It's just not in Bethesda's engine..

nimble pond
#

Yea, I'd def take ONE epic-sized castle siege over the small battles with skyrim.
It's be that one part of the game I look forward to the most in every playthru

slow loom
#

The problem is that the Creation Engine is already a very cpu intensive engine to run. AI usually uses the cpu to simulate npcs, so the idea of having 100's of npcs is already running into a cpu bottleneck. Middle-Earth: Shadow of War does large scale battles with good graphics. The common thread here is that they have their large battles take place on maps that aren't joined with the open world. The problem comes down to the way Bethesda do their quests which almost always take place in the same map with everything loaded.

feral viper
#

Yeah, doing so would require Bethesda to make concessions with their engine...

Or, use tricks.

#

And by tricks, I mean tried and tested mechanisms to create the illusion of scale when there isn't any.

#

Limited environments, forced perspective, camera trickery, etc.

The stuff that Hollywood used to rely on, before CGI.

slow loom
#

Low poly background npcs that don't have AI.

#

Starfield overcame this limitation somewhat and we got semi believable crowds for the first time in a Bethesda game.

feral viper
#

Beyond the fact they're all mindless drones with no actual permanence in the world

slow loom
#

Then you think of AC Unity doing crowds of 100s of npcs in 2014.

feral viper
#

Same problem there, of course. Hives of lifeless drones

slow loom
#

There are still tricks you can use. Most npcs are lifeless until interacted with and then they get more depth to their AI.

feral viper
#

IMO, it's not even worth calling them an NPC if they don't meet the 3 Ps

nimble pond
feral viper
#

Persistence, Personality, Purpose.

feral viper
slow loom
#

Well then we come back to square one where we have about 20 people in a town.

feral viper
nimble pond
#

As far as the lifeless drones. It could work because it's likely there would be alot of "lifeless" bodies on the ground with such a large battle.

feral viper
#

But there are ways to do both. Unfortunately, they'd be better recieved a decade ago, before the whole AI thing caught on.

nimble pond
slow loom
#

Lets not forget the GTA games and how they do npcs and most of the time they have a lot of personality.

dim reef
#

The GTA games were also very limited by what they could do. They were ambitious sure but we all know San Andreas's infamous AI and pathing issues

feral viper
#

I'd honestly forget most things about GTA games.

slow loom
#

San Andreas was still trying to do a lot for what was essentially still the dark ages for open world games.

pulsar root
#

Also the last GTA game dev cycle is way longer between games

dim reef
#

Very few games actually managed to get large scale conflicts right. It was VERY ambitious at the time

dim reef
#

5's campaign itself iirc had multiple ideas for expansions and dlcs which were all dropped in favor of GTA online

gloomy anchor
#

Let's keep it to ES, you can discuss other games in #off-topic

dim reef
#

True. Back to ES. I think now that the hardware is on par they can do large scale things

#

Most notably town/city sizes. They can definitely make bigger and more realistically scaled towns now

feral viper
#

They could make full sized cities, with enough work behind the scenes.

#

It just takes making the necessary robust systems to do so.

And no one really wants to put the work in, Bethesda or otherwise

slow loom
#

I can't imagine how much more expensive it is to make a game with an engine you have to maintain and update in-house. Many more people on the payroll that other companies don't have.

nimble pond
#

Thinking of the Ada tower, I really want to do a skirmish on some tall structure, like thousands of feet in the sky. So just for the final blow I can kick them over the edge, their scream the last you ever hear or see of them as they disappear into the clouds below lol. In this way, you can't really confirm if they are still alive or truly dead, but it is believed to be likely so.

feral viper
#

Interesting...

#

I was use a 300 gif, but apparently the gif doesn't get past Dyno.

#

Probably for the best. Snyder's use of slo-mo is basically visual profanity.

nimble pond
#

Lol ik the one you refer to

dim reef
#

That'll take way too much work

feral viper
#

The underlying systems are what allow you to achieve those sorts of things in a meaningful way.

dim reef
#

Well I'm personally fine without them. I just want a lot of content be it quests, lore or just dialogues

#

Let the townsfolk have some reactions to quests rather than just the guards

pulsar root
#

I think they should at least always trying to moderately improve the game's systems(And map size not massive there comes a point where the effort involved take away from other systems/mechanics)

feral viper
#

Work smarter. Not harder.

dim reef
#

I also hope there's more animations. Let more npcs just interact with each other through physical means like handshakes, hugs and what not.

#

It's been 20 years and you still can't physically interact with people outside of combat

feral viper
#

Even in combat, interaction is... Well, floaty and unresponsive

dim reef
#

True. Some improved hit registration would be cool

#

Although I'd say it's still better than something like Witcher 3's combat

feral viper
#

Well, first person combat is always better than 3rd person.

nimble pond
nimble pond
feral viper
#

Fun fact. Never seen Frozen.

timid drum
#

Frozen 2 is better imo

nimble pond
nimble pond
nimble pond
# dim reef True. Some improved hit registration would be cool

I always thought it would be cool if you could do things like slice a bro's hand or leg clean off. You know, Monty Python, Black Knight. Maybe some would have magic to reattach or ability to grow a new hand, who knows.
But it I don't know alot about the technicalities of creating combat like that and it just seems to me like it'd be complicated.. and just change the game completely.

#

But I did think of an idea would be adding some like that, realistic combat to "Survival Mode" as one of it's gamemode options. I think it'd be really fun like that. You'd really have to keep on your toes in defense.. or parry well, at least early on. Till you learn spells to heal severed limbs or abilities. Or a mage who can do that for you for payment. Otherwise you might be running around with only one arm for a while.
Maybe you could even get into the shadowy trade of selling.. body parts. I'm sure Necromancers would just love that. Or some mad healer he'll bent on creating the "Frankenstein" of TES, using different body parts from different types of creatures. Spriggan, bear, high elf, whatever..

nimble pond
#

Well interesting chat today, chat. Jolly good show.

tardy atlas
feral viper
#

Absolutely. To be entirely honest, it's a wonder Creation can do what it does, and speaks volumes about Bethesda's engine.

Buuut. That doesn't mean there aren't issues.

dim reef
#

The engine never was the issue in this case. It was always the hardware.

#

and Bethesda's own coding talents.

tardy tiger
eager remnant
# dim reef and Bethesda's own coding talents.

Coincidentally Zaric Zhakaron made a video on this very topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqymg_prARI&pp=ygUVWmFyaWMgWmhha2Fyb24gZW5naW5l

YouTube
Zaric Zhakaron
The Creation Engine Did Nothing Wrong | It's Bethesda! | Morrowind ...

"The same Old Broken Engine" is a SCAPEGOAT people are using (perhaps unwittingly) to take the blame off Bethesda's developers themselves, the real culprits in the buggy, glitchy, ugly, messes that have been resulting from otherwise enjoyable Bethesda sandboxes for years. I've enjoyed every game from Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and F...

▶ Play video
cerulean dock
#

hello

dim reef
cerulean dock
#

i also like serana :D she is soo funny

opaque ingot
jade plover
jade plover
dim reef
#

But if it's possible on robots, it must be doable on human enemies as well

jade plover
dim reef
#

Yes. There is a crippling system

jade plover
dim reef
#

They probably didn't think about it as it was the very first time they attempted live dismemberment

#

It was quite experimental

jade plover
#

Or they just didnt want to make the game more violent

dim reef
#

That too. Although you can still chop things off, it just kills them. But ig watching half chopped off people limping around would trigger all sorts of censor issues

jade plover
#

In that case they would have to make separate version for Germany and Japan who can ban violence

dim reef
#

These censor rules have always felt so bizarre to me. Watch someone get disintegrated, fine. Chopped to bits, fine. But live dismemberment? No

#

Shut it down immediately

jade plover
#

Yeah, thats weird. I also never heard about these countries censoring movies for same reasons, only games

dim reef
#

Movies face it too apparently. Just not as much iirc

nimble pond
jade plover
#

Because these are zombies, not people

nimble pond
#

Thought about that, but nah, they're pretty damn human-looking lol. Just living dead.

#

We already got plenty of still bloody and gorey human body parts lying around in TES too, what with those Necromancers

#

Speaking of 1st and 3rd person. I kinda like vision impairment in combat. They alr had similar things like blizzards and fog in Skyrim. So why not some things that cause temporary blurriness or hallucinations? Maybe making a "flashbang" style version of the magelight/candlelight spells.
https://media.tenor.com/dwo1UkXqiq8AAAAM/dennis-nedry-wayne-knight.gif

tardy tiger
#

Would've been nice with TES3 as the third person character models also put their hands up when moving into the wind of storms

nimble pond
#

I've always liked mirror shields and the concept of people getting trapped in one. Would be cool if we could bash with a mirror shield upon an enemy and when you do, they get absorbed into your mirror shield. Adding a temporary boost (timed or hit/dmg based) to the defense points of the shield, based on however strong their defense was.

jade plover
#

Bethesda, hire this man please

tardy atlas
#

@dim reef The engine really is just a renderer with a bunch of tools on top of it. They can swap out the tools far more easily than I had originally considered, but I have information now I didn't have back then.

#

Props to the programmers who refactored a lot of the early Fallout 76, that was a badly made game (on a techincal level), it's a LOT better now.

dim reef
feral viper
tardy atlas
feral viper
#

Oh, I get that. I was injecting some black humour.

eager remnant
tardy atlas
feral viper
#

Look, if they can call the rambling slop of a 7th grader changing every 3rd word from a Wikipedia article so they don't get flagged for plagiarism an 'Essay', I think your stuff more than qualifies.

feral viper
#

The Limb Damage and Crippling issue is basically twofold. A lack of precision (which would allow you to actually target limbs) and a conflict between 1st and 3rd person combat.

dim reef
#

I think a big reason why precision doesn't exist in melee combat is consoles.
Precision strikes would be hard to do on a controller

feral viper
#

I'm less inclined, because I've seen it done on Consoles.

dim reef
#

It HAS been done but it's hard to do so they don't.
Fallout has gun precision because they're guns so it's easier

feral viper
#

And I've seen it done in 3rd person.

But... You have to approach it very differently between 1st and 3rd person, which I think is the main hangup.

dim reef
#

Although on that note, bows and crossbows should definitely have precision

feral viper
#

Absolutely. And they do, but I think their lack of mechanical benefit to that precision is an indicator of WHY precision isn't that big a thing in TES. And Bethesda in general.

#

And I think Starfield perfectly reflects this problem, even though it has guns.

dim reef
#

They did have a lot of benefit in 4 and 76 especially with robot enemies

feral viper
#

Precision requires an entirely different way of going about fighting. Different ways to track damage, different ways to disable enemies, different behaviours and a fundamentally different system for engagement.

#

Bethesda's general solution has always been HP sponges. Which are directly contradictory to the more controlled, tactical combat that precision favours.

dim reef
#

If they can apply the robot dismemberment system to human enemies it would really shake up combat a lot.

feral viper
#

Starfield really highlights this, with Shattered Space's 'Boss' fights basically involving unloading Verdun volumes of ammunition into one poor sot's head to down them.

There's no room for finesse, no tactical counter play, no nothing. Just pound it with volume of damage until it stops moving.

This is why I typically describe Bethesda's combat as Ham-Bat combat.

dim reef
#

That's more a Starfield problem tbf. 76 has some pretty decent boss battles

#

Iirc Starfield was severely limited because of the spacesuit system. They couldn't figure out how to add gore or dismemberment to them so they didn't do anything

feral viper
#

Starfield was really... The less I say at this point, the better.

gloomy anchor
#

this is es channel. Let's keep on topic please

dim reef
#

I doubt ES6 would have that problem

feral viper
#

Overall point being, even in a model that allows for more precision, the core issue with Bethesda's approach to combat shines through.

#

Why this is, i think is a multifaceted problem that's... Really a pain in the ass to go into because Discord is atrocious for these kinds of discussions.

#

But point being, I think Bethesda's core approach to combat needs to change at a basic level. Because what they've been doing for the last 20 years was dated in 2002, it's antiquated now

dim reef
#

They can do precision strikes that change the pace of combat. They've already done so before.
They just need to tweak some things and it'll be good

#

Speaking of which i hope the dwemer robots have the same dismemberment system as Fallout robots

#

Like shooting their wheels off with a crossbow so they start limping around. That sort of thing

feral viper
#

I think EVERYONE should have some sort of crippling or dismemberment system.

These are weapons, not NERF bats.

dim reef
#

Yeah. If not dismemberment atleast carry over the cripple system from Fallout

#

But ig only time will tell what they do

feral viper
#

You could even adopt a sort of DooM approach where you can give a visual indicator of what body part your aiming for, or Perk Lock that option to make it better.

#

But some element to strategic combat needs to be adopted in order to move forward. Because as it stands, Combat is less engaging now than it was in Daggerfall. And that's not a good thing.

feral viper
#

In order for Limb Damage to really work, combat needs to allow you to put an attack where you want it, when you want it. Minus the enemies defensive movement, anyway.

This would, in turn, basically eliminate the ability for fancy attack cycles and animations. It would necessitate function over style.

#

Though, I think control and precision is a style all its own. Give me combat that handles well over twirls and flips any day.

nimble pond
#

I wouldn't mind some long-range precision magic spells. Basically you use one hand to cast a zooming ability and the other to launch the specifically-made precision magic projectile spell (perhaps they could be like lock-on homing, you have to keep the target in your crosshair for 3 secs to get target lock while holding the spell cast in your other hand)from your hand. Like a sniper rifle, but magic instead.

#

Teleportation spells too. All you have to do is aim your crosshair where you want to go, 'hold' down the spell button and boom you teleport right there. And if you 'tap' the spell button (with teleport spell equipped) you teleport back to the last spot you teleported from. There could also be a separate sub-spell "teleport target" which as you may have guessed, you select a target than aim where you want to teleport them too. Be it an object you want to steal or even teleporting an enemy or companion off a cliff if you want to.

distant crown
#

Bro why can’t I download blood chill manor

#

Someone help I’ve been at this for days it’s ruining the game for me

feral viper
#

What's the error message?

wide garnet
#

I’ve got something from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that I think is funny and I’d like to share it:

Matthias: I don’t know how or why it happened, but the inherent magic of Skyhold interacted with Umbra’s own magic, and Clavicus Vile now has a daughter. Vile’s doing everything he can to dispute it, but the horns on her head, similar sense of humor, and similar powers aren’t leaving any room for debate, even though she’s a seven-foot-tall vixen. I asked Divine Father Akatosh about this, but he just told me to tell him, ‘Consider it my payback.’.

heavy pier
#

What?

wide garnet
feral viper
#

What what what?

timid drum
#

No this is Patrick

feral viper
wide garnet
#

If talking about my idea for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls, it was about how the inherent magic of Skyhold (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Skyhold||) interacted oddly with the magic of Umbra, causing the fragment of Clavicus Vile’s power to be “incarnated” as a daughter, mainly as a source of “parental comedy”, especially with her being much taller than her father.

sudden temple
#

Can we have the new elder scrolls next year pretty please

slow loom
#

Even if it's buggy and unfinished?

dim reef
#

I'd be happy with a trailer atleast

rigid cloak
dim reef
#

That's probably asking too much. Best case scenario it's an in engine cutscene like Starfield's trailer

rigid cloak
#

And has some sort of connection to Skyrim (elder scrolls five)

#

Like a mention of the final dragonborn or mentions of Pathraanax or something like that maybe even the Dark brotherhood or thieves guild

#

That's probably still asking too much

jade plover
dim reef
#

Kcd2's combat won't work for so many different playstyles. It works there because it's world is pretty simple

#

Like you can't pull a Master Strike on a dragon

drifting geyser
#

Any funeral doom metal fans here

slow loom
#

The combat also has to be playable in both third and first person which would be a nightmare for devs. I think shooters most of the time are better in first person and games with magic and swords are mostly better in third person.

I cant imagine playing some of the top sword fighting games in first person. You get almost zero spatial awareness. Anything that isn't just a straight forward attack like say a whirlwind would make most players feel sick to watch.

jade plover
feral viper
feral viper
#

But the depiction of Samurai culture in video games hasn't caught up to Anime and Film yet. They're still Post Reconstruction idealisations of the barbarism and feudal autocratic nature of the Samurai...

dim reef
#

They aren't particularly trying to be 1:1 accurate to irl anyway so that's not something they focus on much. A lot of them operate on rule of cool and that's ok in my book

jade plover
feral viper
#

To be fair, I just hate Samurai in general too. Almost as much as I hate cowboys.

#

And there's only one thing I hate more than Cowboys. And I can't say their name here for what I hope are obvious reasons.

#

The main difference is, in my experience... I can justify my likes and dislikes with explanations.

In most conversations (not so much here, people here are actually bright) people just bandwagon or don't put thought into understanding what and why they like or dislike something.

pulsar root
#

Realism in terms of combat if pushed enough becomes detrimental to fun but yes whirlwind and first person don't mesh well...if at all. Except maybe you can activate in first person but camera goes third person when you do it but... doubtful that happens

rigid cloak
#

Whatchal think of the ebony blade

feral viper
feral viper
# pulsar root Realism in terms of combat if pushed enough becomes detrimental to fun but yes w...

I generally agree. And there is a fundamental problem in realism, due to the mechanism for interaction in video games.

I think this is where KCD fails. Realistic, historical martial arts are great I film or in practice, but the limitations of gaming make them clunky and awkward. Combat in the first game (haven't even checked out the second) just looks janky, feels cumbersome, and is just not good.

#

So combat should be designed first with gameplay in mind. To hell with whether or not it looks historically accurate.

rigid cloak
dim reef
#

It's fun in the 2nd game atleast to me. But it only works BECAUSE kcd2's world is simple

rigid cloak
#

But The executioner's axe is so much better

dim reef
#

Like if KCD2 had dragons, mages, giants and what not that combat system wouldn't have worked

feral viper
#

Yeah, it's functional (barely) in a very narrow, historical context.

rigid cloak
#

I just had the dumbest moment in Skyrim

feral viper
#

That's one reason why I'm keeping an eye on Fatekeeper. The gameplay LOOKS good, but how it actually plays could be radically different.

We'll see.

feral viper
rigid cloak
#

I'm at broken Tower redoubt looking for the priest of boethia and I'm dealing with these four sworn and there's this one using firebolt and lesser Ward I did a shout (fire breath Lvl 2) and it did nothing to the Forsworn using the fireball and lesser Ward

#

This time I actually have a picture of it

dim reef
#

I spawned a dremora on top of a dragon once

#

It was hilarious watching it try to shake him off

rigid cloak
#

You must be a fellow Serana simp

feral viper
#

Fire breath is what actually turned one of my characters off hunting in Skyrim once, because of a weird interaction.

#

Running down an Elk, firebreath'd to kill it. Three other elk immediately run up to circle the body, and just stare at it.

Character swore off hunting after that. Bought all my leather from a shop for the rest of the playthrough.

rigid cloak
#

Does anyone know why with your Nightingale armor you need void salts to upgrade it

dim reef
#

Speaking of Firebreath. The DB should be able to keep it sustained for a while. Dragons can keep shouting fire for a solid couple seconds

rigid cloak
#

Like it doesn't make any logical sense it's made out of leather so it should be upgradable via leather not void salts

#

Like could someone help me make any logical sense out of that

feral viper
tardy tiger
feral viper
dim reef
rigid cloak
feral viper
rigid cloak
#

You mean magic pepper

tardy tiger
feral viper
rigid cloak
#

Quick question

#

I'm doing the House of horrors mission and how do I beat logrolf into submission with the rusted Mace without killing him? This is my first time doing this mission on any of my accounts so.....

dim reef
rigid cloak
#

Does anyone else like using the ancient Nordic set of armor

dim reef
#

I do. Atleast until i get Lord's mail

rigid cloak
feral viper
rigid cloak
feral viper
#

If you kill him, Bal just brings him back for more.

rigid cloak
#

Like I beat him into submission and then after molag bal was done doing whatever what he was doing with him I killed him because molag bal said so

feral viper
#

Maybe you can pull it off of you just do so little damage.r

rigid cloak
#

Even I, Death, have to follow his daedric princes and priestesses

feral viper
#

I think it takes a particular number of hits.

dim reef
#

I wish there was a way to refuse that quest honestly. Most of the other daedra quests can be refused or you can go against the princes

rigid cloak
#

He did my girl Serana wrong though

feral viper
rigid cloak
dim reef
feral viper
#

Bal doesn't accept refusals. It's kinda part of his character.

rigid cloak
#

Hey what do y'all think of The Daedric Priestess Namira

dim reef
#

Yeah but what's he gonna do?

#

We're not in Oblivion, his control is limited here

#

Dagon for example just spawns two dremoras to try and kill you.

rigid cloak
#

At least you get some Dædric hearts out of that

feral viper
#

And those that aren't underutilized (Bal and Dagon) tend to be terribly utilized.

rigid cloak
feral viper
#

Oh, I know.

rigid cloak
#

When you first enter markarth if you see a priest arguing with a guard talk to the priest except the mission going to the Hall of the Dead find the cannibal lady except the mission from her do as the dangerous priestess says lure the priest to a place where he's going to get sacrificed and you get to eat him and then you'll be granted her ring which brings up your stamina by 30 and allows you to regenerate your health by eating corpses

feral viper
#

I am awake of who she is. I just think Bethesda has no idea what to do with her. Or the Daedra in general.

They're stuck with this mentality of them as Demons, rather than as gods representative of particular aspects of existence that can often be seen as dangerous when taken to extremes.

rigid cloak
#

I mean she's a pretty good daedric priestess though

feral viper
#

But the Aedra are the same thing. They just don't get treated as such, because of reasons that I won't go into here.

rigid cloak
#

Do I still do prefer lady nocturnal or lady debilla over anybody else? Yes, Yes I Do.

feral viper
#

Boethia is my king and my queen. The only Prince, the only GOD, who wants you to be better than you are.

rigid cloak
feral viper
#

Yeah, she presents as hot. Which I dig.

rigid cloak
feral viper
#

Ah, my concerns are rarely with in game benefits.

#

Which is ironic, given my position on the setting these days... Maybe I should care more about in game benefits.

rigid cloak
feral viper
rigid cloak
#

.....

feral viper
#

Entirely unrelated, how is it that I'm constantly losing my pot of black paint...

dim reef
rigid cloak
feral viper
dim reef
rigid cloak
feral viper
#

But that's a chronic problem for basically everyone, everywhere in TES. They're all bumbling morons.

rigid cloak
#

Mehunes Razor is by far the best weapon in the entire game

feral viper
#

Ocato, for instance, was so colossally stupid the only way to make him competent is to make him an enemy agent.

dim reef
#

Ocato? He somehow has less lines than even the emperor. I'd say he's more underutilized than stupid

rigid cloak
#

I got a question for yall

#

One of the more important decisions in the game

#

Did y'all kill Pathraanax or Kill Delphine?

#

And give me your reasoning behind it.

feral viper
#

Neither. Parturnaax has spent longer atoning for his crimes than he actually did commiting them.

And Delphine is a Blade, and therefore not even worth my time.

dim reef
#

Also what crimes did he even commit? Could he refuse Alduin's rule without getting into reasonable trouble?

#

Not like he can just walk up to him and go "nah imma do my own thing"

feral viper
#

'Just following Orders' both is, and is not, a valid defense... But yeah, it is a complicated ethical point that Skyrim just kinda... Shrugs over.

#

Like every ethical and philosophical point the COULD have explored.

Thinking is hard, guise..

dim reef
#

In this case it kind of is when the one giving the orders is a literal world eater imo

feral viper
radiant moss
# dim reef Also what crimes did he even commit? Could he refuse Alduin's rule without getti...

It's not explicitly said. Delphine claims people still have "nightmares" of his crimes. It's implied he did them willingly, and among talks where he talks about trying to ignore his "nature", being named "Ambition–Overlord–Cruelty" (Paar–Thur–Nax), he never really gets over it. He still flies away to lead/overlord over the other dragons in the game's Epilogue, but if for better/"The Way of the Voice" is ambiguous.

feral viper
#

That's always been kinda weird to me...

'People still have nightmares of his crimes'

Like... Find me a 6000 year old person who would remember any of it.

#

Because only the Elves can possibly live that long, and they don't even seem to remember they the war even HAPPENED.

dim reef
#

Hm. I guess they're both biased in their own ways. There's no way to really know

feral viper
#

Though generally, I think Skyrim is about as well thought out as Warlords of Draenor.

A decent starting point, but they barely went beyond what seems Draft 1 with it.

dim reef
#

Actually wait. There is a way to know.
The heroes in Sovngarde. Couldn't we just ask them

feral viper
#

Which, credit where credit is due... Still further than they got with Oblivion, where Mankar's dialogue is literally Draft 1.

#

Anyway, any more and I'm going to start ranting about the lore and setting again, and no one wants that.

#

Back to the Combat thing... I actually have a combat section in my now woefully out of date thesis on things... That should still be mostly in line with what I think. I'll dig it up

pulsar root
#

The problem with that vagueness, is its kinda a weak answer like they don't want to give an answer. And I think for characters I think sometimes you need to give a definitive answer. But we'll probably never see Paar again anyways.

rigid cloak
feral viper
nimble pond
#

Ya know going back to the discussion of spinoffs of the mainline games (TES, Fallout, Starfield)... I realize doing so would take more time and resources, people, and probably further delay the mainline games if they're making pc or console sized spinoff titles.
But..
My idea would be to do mobile-sized spinoffs based on the main games. So they keep making mobile games, but more focused as spinoffs of the main titles rather than being a "mobile game" for the sake of being a mobile game. Like I wouldn't really call fallout shelter or TES: Castles spinoffs.. Fact is they already have thousands of mobile games that already fundamentally all do the same thing, sim builder, city manager, etc. just with a different skin. That's basically all.
Instead make mini-stories for the mobile focused and finely detailed on exploring lesser explored areas/characters of the world itself. Make actual spinoffs. The parts that don't quite matter as much in the main games, but would be very interesting for players to explore as a spinoff game all on it's own. This would be quite fun for Fallout as could explore areas of the map that just aren't quite big enough to be a main game or explore certain time periods of events. Maybe TES could explore in the Dawn Era.

slow loom
#

While im not against some smaller scale Bethesda games. Promoting mobile games as a way forward is like inviting the devil into your home willingly. We already had Blades and it was a commercial flop. Shelter was actually a good game for what it was.

So if you go from a game with heart like Shelter. To a hollow mobile game like Blades, just imagine what would've been next. Answer is Diablo Immortal in case you were wondering.

nimble pond
#

Again, Blades felt like it was more focused on being a "mobile game" for the sake of being a mobile game. It had some backstory and a lil lore ..and that's about it. I'm looking for more focused on the world with the free exploration we are used to and the story being told and not so much about the type of game system or mechanics (leave that for the big main games). I've been wondering for a while if they're gonna start doing handheld games since seeing Xbox dabbing in that area. Reminds me of the days I used to play on the old Nintendo Gameboy

dim reef
#

Blades had a good base. The combat was fun, the city building was enjoyable when you weren't bogged down by paid timers and the graphics/art direction was surprisingly decent for a mobile game

#

It also had a decent amount of hype behind it. It could've worked. Bethesda just screwed it up with the excessive microtransactions, timers and grind

#

By the time they fixed some of it, people had already moved on so they just gave up on it.

#

Atleast the music in it is banger.
I've got some of it injected into Skyrim and it works really well there

tardy tiger
#

I did like the Blades version of the Ayleid ruins

tardy atlas
feral viper
#

Exploring Mobile Games is a double edged sword.

On the one hand, it just makes sense. It's an unimaginably huge market that dwarfs PC and Console combined, and serves to reach more players than could ever be possible through conventional means.

On the other hand, it comes with the tradeoff of traditional gamers being rabidly against it and treating it like the Antichrist (RIP Nero).

#

The latter has negatively impacted Mobile Gaming as a whole, IMO, as it's scared many developers off legitimately exploring it.

#

Personally, I wish Gamers would shut up and let studios explore the medium. It's not going to improve if the only people making Mobile Games are shovelware, AI driven scam companies.

#

To their credit, I don't think Bethesda has made a bad Mobile game. Even burdened as it was by the Oblivion problem, Blades was decent. Castles was decent. Fallout Shelter is a game I STILL go back to.

Even the old Ngage games were decent.

I thought Diablo Immortal was a step in the right direction for the medium though, so maybe I'm just a mad man.

#

Visual novels, simple management games, auto battlers, etc. These are the types of games we KNOW work on mobile. But if there's one thing Bethesda is good at, it's throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.

Give them the freedom to see what they can make a phone do.

stark flower
feral viper
#

Same here. I almost always go back to it after I finish my yearly Stardew Valley playthrough.

Which... Is about time for that itch.

dim reef
#

That and the mobile market just isn't interested in that kind of games. Most want battle royales, simple side scrollers, match 3 and what you mentioned.

feral viper
#

Well, I think people using controllers are barbarians anyway, so that's not a convincing argument for me.

#

Mouse and Keyboard, or Touch Interface. None of this 1970s stone age joystick nonsense.

#

Hell, Phones are about as close as you get today to LCARS in modern usage. Gimmie more of that.

dim reef
#

Thing is i don't think it's a solvable problem. The biggest hurdle to mobile gaming imo isn't the battery, ram or processing power. It's easily the touch screen

#

You could try making them keyboard/mouse compatible but at that point why not just make the game for pc anyway?

#

Mobile gaming does have a massive market but it's quite a narrow one.

feral viper
#

I'm pretty sure you could pull off a really good Dueling game on Mobile, in fact... With minimal interface needed.

#

And to be honest, I'm surprised there isn't a Civ-like game on Mobile yet.

#

At least not one big enough for me to notice.

dim reef
#

Now it's getting off ES so I'll stop

slow loom
#

I'm not 100% against mobile gaming. I'm against the way they treat mobile gamers. Diablo Immortal costs 400k to get a max level character. PC gamers and Mobile gamers are like a wine connoisseur vs someone with no taste buds or self respect. They are the casuals of casuals and mostly don't know any better. Not to mention a lot of them are kids and gullible to the offer of f2p games.

pulsar root
#

Mobile gaming just isn't something I care about. I do think Blades the game biggest draw is playing as one of the blades. That is cool.

nimble pond
nimble pond
#

And I agree. Like whenever a TES game is released on mobile, I'm not interested in it bc it's a mobile game, I'm interested bc I'm already a TES fan.

#

Like I agree, Shelters was done well as a mobile game. But there are thousands and thousands of other mobile games already that do fundamentally the same thing, just different skins.
Sure I enjoyed it for a lil while, but it gets old and they all start to look and play the same after a while. There's just so many...

rigid cloak
#

What is going on here

slow loom
#

Nothing to see here.

rigid cloak
#

Are you sure about that

nimble pond
#

In any case. I'd just appreciate some smaller spinoffs on mobile/handheld that are much more focused on the game world, detail, and bringing in that total freedom to explore and engage in the world the way we do in their mainline games. Ya know, something like Redguard. Rather than focusing on making a game to fit the framework of and looking like the rest of the mobile games that already do the same thing or putting too much focus on cash cow design that can kill a well-designed good game.

slow loom
#

Sadly shareholders and CEOs often take advantage of it for short term gains at the cost of reputation. What you suggest sounds like a pretty large project. I think if they did make a game for mobile it would need random generation.

nimble pond
#

I suggested on mobile/handheld for the purpose of being smaller-scale games to pursue more interesting spinoffs without being larger ones that would take more resources and increase possible delay on the main games. Unless they just get bigger employment to be able to manage all that in a "timely fashion." But then larger companies are not always the best-run, it really just depends on the leadership.

eager remnant
pulsar root
#

At this point I think Bethesda has enough people working on the games and adding more would be..unnecessary(Now if they were making MMOs I might say otherwise).

nimble pond
#

Yes, I remember bringing up the increase last year when comparing the company size from Skyrim to now. But I had much larger companies in mind in my prior statement, like Activision or Rockstar.

#

I just don't want to add too many larger projects. It's already been an incredibly massive delay from Skyrim to TESVI. Fallout 4 is heavily aged as well and still counting waiting for Fallout 5. Work on the creation engine also seemed to contribute to delays in schedule and there is no doubt it will probably need another tune up in the future. And if that wasn't enough already, we have Starfield to throw in the mix, which it really doesn't look like they're giving up on it, they've invested alot into it even after launch, so I would say Starfield II sometime in the future and learning from whatever mistakes in the first game, unless Xbox straight up says "no" & cancels it. But anyway.. all these things foreseeable and unforeseeable you have to factor and be prepared for, COVID an unforeseeable event that caused further interruptions for example. I really don't want to add anything large that's gonna make these past delays even worse in the future than we have already had.

#

And I understand Todd wanting to make their games last a decade. Personally I think that's pushing it. I really wouldn't want to wait more than 5 years max to explore the next chapter in the TES series. It's not like I have this infinite age to wait 10-20 years to find out what happens next. For some TES fans, Skyrim was the last main TES game they ever played and they passed away while waiting for TESVI to finally get done and it still looks like it's going to be a lil while longer..... It gets to a point where you're just ready for something new instead of trying to pump fresh life into an old horse.

pulsar root
nimble pond
#

I absolutely hope your interpretation on the subject is correct. Cause it wouldn't make much sense if they release the next game 5 years after the last, while still pumping major dlc into the previous game. The two games would conflict with each other.

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But it begs the question, what kind of content would be considered "ageless" content? Crafting? Customization? Having an infinite pool of variety, like on character builds, weapon crafting, or other potential avenues that could provide that sense of "unending."

dim reef
#

Like i said the unique advantage behind a phone is also it's biggest liability when it comes to gaming. It really can't be solved unless you make a bigger screen or add different ways to control things.

nimble pond
# dim reef They're still pcs just with different specifications. If you keep adding control...

I mean the same could be said about most anything, like about gameboys, psp's, etc and they saw good success. I think that's kinda the point, as much as I love PC gaming, not everyone wants to play on a PC. Or maybe they don't have time to play larger games like you usually see on PC/Console. Things like that and other considerations are why they appreciate having different choices of gaming systems. I don't really mind small screens for the phone/handheld games, but I'm fairly certain you can get the picture on the TV without much difficulty if you wanted to. Sometimes I'll hook up my laptop or phone to stream movies to my big screen.

dim reef
nimble pond
#

Personally I've never had a problem with touch controls and usually they have opacity options. But even if you don't like touch, I'm sure in the future they will have gaming phones that come with external controls by default. So you have the choice of both that and touch-screen control.

#

But I totally understand your view if you're not a fan of mobile games or touch screen controls..?

dim reef
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That's my question. Touch screen is one of the key aspects of a phone. If you add external controllers it just becomes something else.

Like if you add a keyboard and mouse to a ps5 and steam games, does it remain a ps5 anymore?

nimble pond
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Who knows.. they may even find ways in the future to let you play on small screen or big screen on mobile. Like a foldable screen. Which I think they kinda have already gotten on that path. Maybe in the future they'll be 4x foldable?

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But just bc you had external controller, that doesn't mean you no longer have the option of touch screen control if you want to switch back to it.

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And I would say yes it's still a PS5, Sony made it, lol. You're just having different options to how you want to play it. But I get the point you're after. Personally I like having choices in the matter. Sometimes I wanna game with K&B, sometimes controller, sometimes VR, & and sometimes touch.

dim reef
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Yeah but the problem is i just don't think touch screen is a good way to play games with more complex control schemes.

Just look at the RE ports on ios. They work but the controls are a mess

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But ig this is getting too off ES so I'll stop

nimble pond
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Well, I'll say this. Even on console/PC, I've never really known TES to have complex control schemes. Not to mention there are ways to avoid that, like context being more dependent on the world, like where you're pointing, environment, etc. than on the buttons. It's even possible to have dual screens. One for controls and the other for the game.
There's alot of different potential approaches to it that I haven't even mentioned, just a matter of finding what works best.

devout violet
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Hi 👋😊

slow loom
# nimble pond I absolutely hope your interpretation on the subject is correct. Cause it wouldn...

I think they could totally release a Skyrim dlc as a small stop gap between major releases or even just to add to the world. Witcher 3 is getting a new dlc even though it will be close to the release of Witcher 4. They can get away with it a bit more because the story of Geralt is over come the new game release. But Skyrims story is also over unless they add a dlc. One problem would be breaking all the mods for Skyrim with a major update. That didn't seem to stop them with Fallout 4 though. Will TES6 have dragons or some other large flying enemy to capture that magic again?

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The main overlap if they create anything TES will be with ESO. They are almost encouraged at this point not to compete with their parent company.

nimble pond
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I meant releasing dlc for the prior game AFTER the new one has already released.

#

ESO has been out for a while now and it's main attraction is TES "ONLINE."
While I do think fans are ready for something new in the main TES games, I don't think it's going to compete all that much with ESO at this point.. Maybe more significantly if ESO was being released around the same time as TESVI, but it released quite some years ago.
Nor do I think TESVI will hurt ESO all that much either, people who enjoy the multiplayer will go back-and-forth, some may only play it for the multi-player aspect and never want to touch a single-player game, even if it is TES.

glad cypress
# feral viper Mouse and Keyboard, or Touch Interface. None of this 1970s stone age joystick no...

Touch interface is so much worse than joystick and buttons, the tactile feedback of pressing something is very important and helps with controlling whatever you're controlling without having your eyes glued to it.
If it's a phone, you can see it already, but you're limited by the size of visible screen vs. buttons clogging it up, plus the fingers being needed to stabilise the phone itself

slow loom
#

Totally agree. As a blanket statement i prefer 3rd person games with a controller, mostly action rpgs. I play first person games with a mouse and keyboard almost exclusively.

slow loom
# nimble pond ESO has been out for a while now and it's main attraction is TES "ONLINE." While...

I've said this before but the main reason I played ESO was because I wanted more TES lands to explore and not because it's an mmo. There is 100% a crossover between the singleplayer and the multiplayer mmo players. It's not 1:1 but it is there. I played 76 because I wanted multiplayer Fallout and more lands to explore.

If you count creations as dlc then I guess those should stop as well once the new game is out. As a bit of a silly hypothetical, should Fallout 4 and Starfield stop updating Creations because they would pull away from the new Bethesda experience?

nimble pond
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For me K&B mostly, second would be touch screen, and last would be controller. I cannot aim worth a damn on a joystick and only use a controller when I'm wanting to sit back & relax more, like on a casual game. Absolutely refuse to play any kind of competitive fps on a stick.. will end up throwing it right thru the wall. Only time I'll play exclusively with joysticks would be for example on the old Mechwarrior games. Stuff like that where the controller actually gives off immersion into the game.

slow loom
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I would never play a shooter on a controller either.

nimble pond
#

And I'm sure there are various reasons people play ESO, whether they are MMO fans, TES fans, whatever. My point is at this time I don't think TESVI releasing here in the next few years is going to conflict all that much with ESO as is being exaggerated...... Probably more so if both games released around the same time. But ESO has been out for quite a while.
Me personally, I have never touched ESO and probably never will. Was just not a fan of how Zenimax designed it. They could literally add Akavir (which I am dying to explore someday) to explore in ESO and I STILL will not touch it. Fallout 76 however I'm totally down for.

And no, I don't really view creations as dlc at all. So I would say no to the idea of stopping them. I think they play a more supplemental role to a games longevity. It'd be like saying people should stop making mods for the older games. Which I hope you don't feel either should stop.

dim reef
#

Creations are different. Mods are usually made by people with what resources and time they have. CC is directly commissioned and funded by Bethesda and they have to do their own QA testing on them (which doesn't really stop the more eh creations but whatever)

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So it all falls down to whether or not Bethesda funds more CC for a specific game. They already have so much going on it's probably not that easy

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Also. They recently changed the payment model. Instead of a direct upfront payment, cc creators now get royalties

jade plover
feral viper
#

I mean, I wouldn't play either anyway, as I don't like Soulslike games, and I have been absolutely rubbish at fighting games for 30 years.

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Controller, mouse and keyboard, full body mocap... None of it is helping me with a fighting game.

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Though I will say, I have played Dark Souls on both controller, and Mouse and Keyboard. And the latter was better to play IMO.

The game is still fundamentally unenjoyable of course, but it was at least playable on Mouse and Keyboard.

feral viper
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Different types of games require different considerations, and allow for different control schemes.

I don't see something like a mainline TES being viable with a touch screen.

But a Ship Builder, Settlement Manager, or 4x Strategy? Those would be perfectly fine..

tardy tiger
#

Any time I see souls like combat I question what the point of a shield is if they're just rolling around on the floor.

feral viper
#

Any time I see Soulslike combat, I question my financial decisions in purchasing said game.

slow loom
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Must suck to hate good games. I use to hate souls games because of the overhyped nature of them. I finally ended up playing and beating one just so I could say I have. Eventually you realise that no other game has as satisfying combat as a souls-like. There's a reason almost every modern game copies the souls formula, it feels rewarding to overcome the odds.

For why shields are a thing, you can parry, block attacks much more reliably and don't have to rely on iframes or getting caught by roll catching attacks.

A lot of console first titles simply just work better with a controller. There's a reason we call some games console games, it's because they work better and are made for controllers first. Dark Souls works mostly fine on M&KB except for things like changing items which uses the arrow keys and the inventory is horrific to control. On the other hand, Bethesda games work very well on both inputs.

pulsar root
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He's not alone. They aren't fun games. I rather play an ES game then a soulsgame thats trying to torture(Slightly exxagerative) me.

feral viper
#

It's worth clarifying too that I'm not saying this as an outsider looking in. I have beaten Dark souls 1 and 2, AND started playing Bloodborne before just hanging it up.

The 'struggle and reward' model has no appeal to me what so ever. It fundamentally missidentifies Challenge, with Punishment.

There's no challenge in hearing your head against a wall until the wall breaks.

slow loom
#

We are the TES crowd so we obviously like very different aspects of games that souls-like doesn't have.

feral viper
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Challenge, at least for me, comes from juggling competing influences which require me to problem solve and remain cognizant of constant information flows.

Which I'll admit... No RPG has ever really done anyway.

#

The genre as a whole isn't challenging. It never has been, and barring a major revolution (one which Bethesda is uniquely situated to start, if it were so inclined) I doubt it ever will be.

slow loom
#

I'll admit that the challenge can sometimes be very frustrating to the point where I say "Why even bother.". But I am also someone who likes a good challenge and the feeling of having to get good at a game before I can progress. It's hard to argue with someone who would prefer spammy TES combat with AI that runs at you like a lemming or stands and shoots. The real question is which game would learn more from the other?

nimble pond
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I must be old school because the only challenge I get are from puzzles, lol. Like the old Myst games, even some of the new stuff is fun. I been meaning to try out Talos Principle 2.

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I don't mind the combat system in Dark Souls, but I wouldn't want to see it in TES or into every game out there. Let them find their own flavor, I don't want every game I play to feel like another Dark Souls game.

slow loom
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Fair points. I don't want every game to feel the same but UE5 took care of that. We all like different games and challenges in our games. Gaming is not a one size fits all situation.

wild patrol
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Arthmoor is my favorite character. He had a silly character development

nimble pond
#

As much I've seen it discussed, I'm not all that hung up on current TES Melee Combat. It's just kinda fits with it's "freedom" gamestyle. But I admit it is a little bland. But if ya wanna spice it up, here's my cut.

Bring crafting to melee combat "MOVEMENT."

Introduce a variety of fighting styles (how your moves are executed and your fighting stance) like...(MMA, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Drunken Fist, Kenjutsu, Laido, etc. [or if you're really creative, create some unique fighting styles based on the in-game races for players to use]) and then moves (slash, hack, stab, thrust, etc.) and lastly the options of like what direction the attack goes (like left or right, up or down, horizontal, vertical, diagonal, etc.) and strength (how hard you want it to hit, how long it takes, and how much stamnia you drain executing the attack), various options like that.

Then let gamers craft and create their own combat movements from that to assign to their attack buttons. They can freely go as pure or hybrid mix with their melee combat styles as they want to and change it up, try different ones, at their leisure.

nimble pond
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With magic, it's a no-brainer. Bring back spell-creating/crafting.

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And with ranged, give us more crafting options of "projectiles" to launch besides arrows and bolts. How many fired at a time.. etc.

AND bring throwables back!

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Having vast crafting systems can help alot, I'm just saying.

nimble pond
#

I wonder when all the other Mai'q from the previous games (ESO included) will show up in the next game with the next Mai'q? All together in one room at the same time.

slow loom
#

As good of an idea as it might seem to overcomplicate the combat. Unless there is a reason to use a different attack it ends up being pointless

nimble pond
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Not everything has to be so purposeful, or restricted to only a single purpose. Even the background grass and trees have a purpose. I enjoy the roleplay aspect of it and a closer feel of identity with the character. The new variety of combat movement is simply the bonus. Nor do I find the concept all that complicated, but this is merely a rough draft thought up in minutes, it can certainly be refined over time. All I'm simply doing is taking the combat system that already exists and adding a few more options to play with on it, rather than implementing another melee system that's either a copy from other games or would require changing up more of the games mechanics besides melee mechanics, in order to make it all work.

slow loom
#

Combat and environments are a bit different. Sure you can make combat look more flash which doesn't really hurt besides development time.

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I can't think of many if any games with good combat that get described as good because the combat look flashy.

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Once again it doesn't hurt but also isn't a major selling point if it still plays poorly.

nimble pond
#

Well, I just saw alot of talk about the melee system lately and that was my idea on it, bringing crafting to combat movement. My aim with it wasn't really "flashiness," this was pretty bare bones on my part. More so aiming for the openly creative freedom & expression I've come to love in these games and I think others do to. I'm pretty much okay with the combat movement system as it is, but I do admit with others that it is a little bland.

slow loom
#

Gotta do some things but nice chat 🙂

molten lodge
#

Got a question for the community. Do y'all prefer the path TES is taking, or do you think it should embrace it's more weird and unique roots? "Think Descriptions given between TES 1-3 , and a little bit of 4 even with the retcons. However, this is not an open invitation to discuss the views of certain former Bethesda employees

dim reef
#

I do. Yes. Though i actually think they're slowly becoming more unique rather than losing it.

molten lodge
#

I only ask because it creeped a little too close to Tolkin in 4 and 5, However I will say that what we have been getting out of ESO (any devs of that in here, y'all are knocking it out of the park) have been quite amazing, and got my interest peaked again

nimble pond
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I think it's a bit of both, loss and gain on various elements, varying from game-to-game.

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I haven't played ESO, but my guess is that having that inclusion of the beast & elf race provinces and their cultures helps.. whereas the last two main games have been focused on well, humans. I guess we're all a bit bored of ourselves..? Lol! 😆

eager remnant
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I think the creature, plant, landscape and architecture art designs of Starfield are the most imaginative, creative (i.e. weird and unique) work they have done since Morrowind. In fact, in some ways I think it surpasses it. So I have high hopes that I will be satisfied with the art design of TES6.

dim reef
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I really like the clutter design in Starfield. It may seem insignificant but often the placement of clutter props in dungeons just make a place look more unique imo

nimble pond
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Space can be a very interesting and creative place to play with & visit, provided the Earth is gone.. lol jk!

dim reef
#

Although i still hate how grey space itself looks. Why is it so bright

nimble pond
#

Well.. that's probably a good thing. Be a bit hard to hard to get around if it was pitch black up there

dim reef
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Nah pitch black isn't necessary but since it's not realistic couldn't they have picked a different color? It just looks so harsh

molten lodge
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I do hope that the base building system appears in the next TES game, because it would be so cool to see what the community comes up with.

nimble pond
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In my kingdom, there will be daily executions at the guillotine! Hail, Gin Jong-Un! Lol

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And I shall have a vast collection of heads in my cabbage patch.

jade plover
tardy tiger
#

Architecture is a pain of doing it in one zone.

Like white marble can work. If you remove the antiquity filter.

dim reef
nimble pond
#

Who or what should be the next villain(s) be?
I'll toss in a sentient virus created by the Thalmor to help further weaken the human race. Giving their hosts superhuman power/abilities, but also taking over the mind. The big bad waiting to battle you out in the sea, a colossal-sized parasite, like a whale, kraken, or leviathan size.

feral viper
dim reef
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I for one would be very disappointed if we don't get a full scale showdown with them. They've been building the thalmor up for over a decade now

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And as I've said before i do hope the prophecy and war have more interactions. No, not just locking out certain quests before you do the other. Actual changes like dialogues, alternate paths and what not.

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Starfield was very dissappinting on that end. It's like no one outside the constellation crew cares about such a humongous discovery about the literal multiverse

feral viper
#

At best, i expect the villian to be Satakal.

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More likely, I expect it to be some bland Thalmor supervillain

dim reef
#

John Thalmor

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Actually now that i think about it, Elenwen could return as a villian. Maybe not the main one but a secondary antagonist

feral viper
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What I want, but in no way expect, is a switcheroo.

#

The Hoonding is the villian, and your job is to stop the prophecy

dim reef
#

I'd love a switch like that too. Also make the player character be some key part in the villians' plan unknowingly

feral viper
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But I'm a maverick that doesn't think Cyrus was a Hoonding anyway, so...

glad cypress
#

A plot where the Prisoner is the villain but unwittingly fulfils their role through involving you - a random bystander - and brings an end to whatever chaos erupts would be cool I think

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It's not like the formula is particularly, ahem, formulaic between games anyway. In Oblivion you're practically Martin's Lydia completing all the quests for him, and become the Big Special in Skyrim instead. Morrowind has you become a prophecy through brute force instead of being inherently special. I think it could be a good inversion

dim reef
#

In Oblivion you are both the main characters. Martin can't win without you and you can't win without Martin

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The other blades are just there for the aesthetic ig since they don't do anything

feral viper
dim reef
#

Honestly now that i think about it, they could do a dual protagonist system like KCD2

#

One being the MAIN main character and the other gets the other one out of trouble

feral viper
#

Ultimately, I don't expect anything with any nuance. So it's a wasted point anyway.

feral viper
#

You can't make armour work like armour without damage types. And you can't make damage types work like damage types in melee combat without specific attack types.

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While I personally would like to see Daggerfall's range of attacks come back, using an Analogue Control system to allow for fluidity, that idea has traditionally been poorly recieved when I bring it up, so I've cut it down to just 2 types of attacks. Thrust, and Swing. You could even call them Light and Heavy, if you're trying to cater to the average Gamer.

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This covers the basic ways to use literally every melee weapon ever designed by humans. And it gives you 2 attack types that can do different amounts of damage, different TYPES of damages, and have different timings.

Everything else can be built off of that.

pulsar root
#

I'll pass on that. The way ES handles(Main character that is, it is fine(Except maybe the very silly overly meta prisoner thing).

tardy tiger
# dim reef John Thalmor

Clearly the Dark Lord Sauron will lead the Thalmor.

Sauron if I recall was in the Arena name list for High Elves

feral viper
#

It leans on a single line of dialogue from Nibani, and misrepresenting Kirkbride's statements on the matter to construct a narrative that simply does not bear out on any critical examination.

#

Spend almost 2 decades fighting against that nonsense, and it STILL follows me like an anchor around my ankles...

#

Anyway, rant over...

New rant incoming.

#

I actually think that RPGs, specifically cRPGs, are fundamentally flawed in their design and ethos.

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The standard philosophy of cRPGs is, for lack of a better description, 'Build a character, play the way that character works'.

It's admittedly born out of a limitation of the early medium, but it's still the primary outlook.

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This is most representative of the persistence of Class Mechanics, which are used to define your playstyle and solutions in game, but it extends to even more free-form styles of cRPG like TES.

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A player chooses Swords, for instance, and then they define themselves by using those swords. No matter the situation, no matter the context, swords out.

cRPGs are designed around playing a Build, not a Character. Which, IMO, makes them more Action Games than RPGs.

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This is the second area where ttRPGs remain king. While you CAN play them as builds, they more often spoil you for choice, and create situations where you're rarely thinking 'What does my class do' and more often thinking 'What can my character do, what are they good at, and how to I apply those skills to this particular situation'.

crystal onyx
#

hey everyone. i just got here

dim reef
crystal onyx
#

so since i'm new here, what can we talk about in this salon?

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(and my apoligies if i don't understand correctly first reading : i'm french ^^')

slow loom
#

Almost anything TES related or relating to discussions surrounding TES.

crystal onyx
#

aight thanks

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cause i've been imagining things latly about Elder Scrolls and in particular the imperial city and its intrigues

feral viper
slow loom
#

As much as I like developers to try and remain original. There are some mechanics that have already been extensively explored and all but set in stone with how they should function.

dim reef
# feral viper Oh, I know. I'm saying that even most ARPGs simply don't even really fit the RPG...

My opinion on that note is that RPG as a genre has gone through so many twists, changes and overhauls we can't really pin point a singular set of things they should have.

Factions for example, I've used them as an example before. Now big factions with branching questlines and alternate endings are a staple of the genre.
But did any of that exist back in the 2000s? No. Does that stop them from being rpgs. I won't say so.

All in all I'd say anything goes

#

The line is already quite blurred out

crystal onyx
#

i was thinking of something missing. An imperial morag tongue. The emperor and the high chancellor should have a secret militia to dispose of threats to the empire. The militia would be a pretended part of the imperial army, ranking to the legate. and then by a plot twist, the player would be falsy executed and would become the Agent, a little easter egg to Daggerfall

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(yeah i sound crazy)

dim reef
#

That's what the Blades were for weren't they

crystal onyx
#

now if i remeber, blades were made to slay dragons and protect dragonborn/dragonblood

#

but not assassins under the empror/chancellor commands

pulsar root
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Loyal to the emperor and such.

crystal onyx
#

and once the player is the agent, he will be sent through Tamriel to do delicate mission matters, you know

eager remnant
crystal onyx
#

yeah i remember Oblivion failures

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But to be enrolled you had to commit a murder on a powerful noble or something. Then once imprisonned, the chancellor will make a deal with you : serve him or die. Throughout the mission, you think that the Chancellor does his little scheme but when you're about to be executed (the "last mission" bieng a trap) when the executionner's axe is about to do the fatal blow, time would be frozen then the chancellor and Emperor would explain all, using a dummy to be executed in the end

livid ingot
#

Their role is to be jobbers

dim reef
livid ingot
#

Get hyped up as an elite organization that fails to hype up the Big Bad

slow loom
# feral viper While I personally would like to see Daggerfall's range of attacks come back, us...

Firstly, we already have heavy and light attacks.

For the combat to really evolve I think you would basically need to copy hero shooters. Have roughly 4 active skills that make up your class with a cooldown. This would give you the feeling of actually making a build that isn't just you do slightly more damage with this weapon type now.

The two ways I would go about achieving this is either have a POE2 style massive skill tree with actives and passives (Although I'm not the biggest fan of this style.).

Other option is keep the current Skyrim passive skill tree while adding a bit more depth. Then add a separate active skill tree with skill points gained for completing major quests, world exploration or given every 2 levels like perks in Fallout. As a last way to add level progression to end game you could add a paragon system like the one found in Diablo 3 with small passive stat increases that have almost no cap.

livid ingot
#

"I am a master of subterfuge and spycraft"

undone vortex
#

does anyone know if there will be another patch for oblivion remastered? the performance is still unacceptable in version 1.2, on a pc that’s way abov recommended specs & modest settings.

dim reef
feral viper
feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

Ok, fair enough. I misunderstood.

dim reef
#

Another example being Bioware style final missions where all the people you help physically show up in the final fight and the success or their survival depends on how much you helped them.

It's also become a staple of rpgs nowadays. But did it exist before? No

feral viper
#

I should rephrase. I think most cRPGs fail to utilize the strengths of the medium to make better RPGs, and burden themselves with outdated limitations and approaches that actively impair what they can do.

dim reef
#

Well i believe sometimes it's the effort and ambition that counts

feral viper
#

I can applaud the effort... Though I see little ambition in the genre these days

dim reef
#

Look at Vampires: TMB for example. Extremely janky game where half the things don't work, but i find the sheer ambition of it quite endearing

crystal onyx
#

so is my idea possible or not in the lore?

feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

Except for Bethesda... Sorta.

But I think a large part of that is... Their track record shows that trying to perfect anything would be a wasted effort.

#

Polish is not their strong point.

dim reef
#

They did try... so to speak.
It's just they tried ambitioning the wrong way

#

Who by the divines needs a 1000 planets in an rpg?

crystal onyx
#

what is your favourite Elder scrolls? Mine is Oblivion. I really should go back to Morrowind : i never finished it

dim reef
#

Skyrim

crystal onyx
#

i love skyrim (i still play it, thanks the mods) but i find it too easy compared to Oblivion

feral viper
#

Morrowind, and it's not even a close competition

#

Skyrim is a distant second, followed by ESO, then Daggerfall

feral viper
dim reef
crystal onyx
#

which Daedra prince is your favourite?

dim reef
#

iirc Defense of Bruma is one of the most hated quests in Oblivion

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They essentially did the same thing except now you're forced to traverse a whole bunch of star systems for a bunch of fetch quests.

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Atleast it wasn't mandatory in Oblivion for any of the quests be it main or side.
You only need to do 3 Oblivion gates for the main story iirc before they're gone forever.

crystal onyx
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Dark Brotherhood questilines were so much better in Oblivion than skyrim IMO

timid drum
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Shadowmere my beloved

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Cicero and Shadowmere are the only reason I do the the Dark Brotherhood questline

dim reef
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I liked them both equally. I do wish the counter quest for the DB in Skyrim wasn't so... barebones

timid drum
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yeahhhhhhhhhh

dim reef
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This was before Bethesda figured out how to do counter quests so you essentially get "kill everyone"

timid drum
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But who doesn't like cold blooded murder?

crystal onyx
timid drum
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Eh fair

crystal onyx
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and i remind the sanctuary purification in Oblivion. I hated that part XD

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or i used to hate it

timid drum
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Tbh I never got that far, the OG oblivion kept crashing on me lol

dim reef
# timid drum But who doesn't like cold blooded murder?

I'm good with cold blooded murder but atleast make it bombastic. Heck if it were up to me I'd do something like lock up the night mother's spirit in Azura's star or something

(Idk if it works that way but I'll try anyway)

timid drum
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that'd be fun

crystal onyx
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i also had Arena and daggerfall for free. I tried arena and i stop quick since i was struggling XD

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but you can see they didn't use mutch imagination in Skyrim for the dark brotherhood, specially if you compare to theif guild

timid drum
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Yeah, TG is fun

crystal onyx
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do you think the Last Dragonborn should be the new Emperor? XD

timid drum
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obv :3

crystal onyx
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yeah agreed

pulsar root
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no

raven helm
feral viper
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I think Divine Right leaders are inherently weak, and shouldn't be encouraged.

raven helm
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If his clothes were armored I would kill him

feral viper
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So the LDB shouldn't be anywhere near a throne.

tardy tiger
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TES already forgot the mess of "Dragonborn Emperor's" Probably because TES4 botched it so hard they had to give it to another culture so it wouldn't be forgotten entirely.

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As Proventus straight up cannot recall any Dragonborn Emperor's but he remembers the Nord Dragonborn thing tied to Tiber.

In 2009 writing remnants in dialogue views even Tullius doesn't know.

feral viper
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Even then, Divine Right is a terrible justification for leadership.

All the Dragonborn Emperor were kinda trash anyway.

tardy tiger
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Dragonborn Emperor was honestly added way too late, removed way too quick and added in a game that wanted nothing to do with the Imperials.

timid drum
feral viper
raven helm
timid drum
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Thats fair

tardy tiger
crystal onyx
feral viper
crystal onyx
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@feral viper did you try french Cicéro?

feral viper
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I am the resident Redcoat. I try not to try anything French.

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I say that sarcastically. I don't actually have anything against the French, it's just a bit..

crystal onyx
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a bit?

feral viper
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Sorry, it means a joke.

crystal onyx
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i understood

feral viper
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Ok, just making sure.

raven helm
feral viper
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I watched Horatio Hornblower when I was young, and assumed the joking identity of an early 19th century Englishman, contemptuous of the French.

crystal onyx
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there are not many games where the french version is good. but I remember that french voice actors did it really good in Inquisition. Skyrim was good too

feral viper
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I will have to take your word for that, as despite 9 years of French classes in Canadian public school, I know none of it.

crystal onyx
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maybe i could teach you sometimes 😉

feral viper
crystal onyx
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cause for me things that big than Imperial city and government is not that good if they don't have their own intrigues

feral viper
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Oh, don't need to convince me there. But I have a low opinion of Oblivion anyway, so...

molten lodge
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I'm glad my question spawned this conversation, thought then again, I did say not to talk about any former Bethesda employees.

feral viper
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Well, as far as that goes, I think the only mention of one was my statement about misquoting someone regarding the Nerevarine.

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Maybe I'm missing what someone else said though, and taking the fall for another.

molten lodge
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I will say I actually don't get that, especially when ESO has actively set in stone that the Nerevarine is a chosen one (skill issue tho that he couldn't save Morrowind. Red mountain go brrr)

feral viper
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ESO confirmed what should have been obvious from the start.

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You don't ACHIEVE a Prophecy. That's not what a Prophecy is. Prophecy is a prediction for the future, not a to-do list.

Nibani was simply wrong. She was always wrong.

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But with her, people didn't even do what they do with Mankar (fix his nonsense so he doesn't sound like a complete idiot). They accepted her incorrect statement as fact.

nimble pond
# dim reef I for one would be very disappointed if we don't get a full scale showdown with ...

My opinion, it would either hit a climax this game or the next. The 2nd Great War and you get to experience it.
Mainly because the Thalmor despise the humans and we've gotten to the end of the rope when it comes to human provinces. Depending on whether Hammerfell or High Rock (though we kinda did get High Rock in Daggerfall, even if it wasn't the entire province and on a very different era in graphics) is to be the last human province we visit, or it's a combination of Hammerfell & High Rock, or they are saving one of those two provinces for the next game.

It's also possible if they end up exploring the beast provinces or the wood elves land, in the games after this one that is coming up, instead.

Either way, I don't think the Thalmor regime will totally end until we set foot on Summerset Isles, which it is very possible to be the next or one of the next provinces we get in the game after this one.

So I think there could be some more significant, direct warfare with the Thalmor in this upcoming game that sets the stage for all that in the game after this one coming up.

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Edit: High Rock is not a human province. Sorry I'm a little slow this morning.

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So that would make Hammerfell the last..

pulsar root
nimble pond
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I also often mistake Bretons for humans in general, it's a common problem with me lol. Cause they're half I think

feral viper
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They're like... 0.00001% Mer.

pulsar root
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They're humans for all intents and purposes. Yeah they got aldmer in them(Though thats not been relevant for centuries). I dun't want to go on a tangent about Breton's origin though. very ranty ><

eager remnant
feral viper
pulsar root
feral viper
nimble pond
dim reef
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I honestly don't get why the Bretons are short. They share ancestors with two tall species and somehow ended up being short?

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What kind of genetic cancelation is at play here

opaque ingot
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And I don’t think that Bretons nedic human ancestors are stated anywhere to be explicitly tall

dim reef
pulsar root
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I tend to think theres variations of height size for the Humans in ES.

dim reef
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I smell something fishy. Must've been some third ancestor we don't know about

dim reef
crystal onyx
feral viper
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Nords claim they share an ancestry, but the Bretons seem to have their own history which goes back BEFORE the Atmorans.

Maybe.

Deep history in TES is an absolute mess.

opaque ingot
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i mean, the nords were wrong about the manmer originating from slaves taken during saarthal's sacking. the druids of galen's presence in high rock predated saarthal's sacking

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if the bretons have any nordic heritage, it would been introduced to them during the time the first empire of the nords held all of (or parts of sources contridict) high rock somewhere around 1E 200/240 - 1E 369/1E 420.

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the nedic druids of galen were already intermingling with the elves of high rock for centuries since back in the late merethic era, so nedic influence would be higher than any nordic influence. the nords ruled high rock for a shorter period of time than the nedes have been around

pulsar root
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Cool as a human origin that is

dim reef
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There should honestly be more hybrids like Lyris Titanborn ngl

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So many races. So many combinations

tardy tiger
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A mystery of the druids. Hopefully there isn't some dude named Halligan

opaque ingot
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rivenspire was originally going to be home of a unique race of half giants named the hill men. these bretons would have had some of their ancestry from a unique giant race called the hill men, and they woulda also had some nordic blood. they scrapped it however. my guess is that they probably wanted lyris to be unique

pulsar root
jade plover
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There are way too many messages again. What did i miss?

slow loom
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I find it hard to call a human, orc and khajiit a different race. Wouldn't a different species fit the bill much better?

glad cypress
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Categorically wouldn't be able to interbreed if that were the case, aside from a few cases of infertile hybrids IRL such as the Mule and Liger. Interestingly, Wolves and Dogs can interbreed successfully but are still different species, but I believe that's due to very early categorisation without the knowledge they were one and the same 40,000 years ago

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Now I can't speak about the orcs, but Man and Mer have to be the same species as Bretons exist. I think Khajiit and Argonians are more alike to Dreugh than Man and Mer, so they'd definitely be different species

jade plover
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Historically crearures in fantasy are called races, so it doesn't really matter what is the definition of the word and if they can interbreed. It just works like this

rigid cloak
feral viper
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Part of the problem is... Race isn't a real thing. It's an outdated classification model that has been used to describe different classifications at different times. It's now only used socially, out of habit, and hasn't been a serious consideration in biology or anthropology for half a century.

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So already, by using Race, we're stepping outside real cladestics.

Now, within the context of TES... The things they call Races are nebulous a lot of the time. Are Imga and Tang Mo different races? Are Bretons and Cyrods?

They use it more like a mixture of 19th century AND mid 20th century Rac (being Nationality and Phenotypical Appearance).

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It's pretty clear they're all the same Species, on so far as that classification exists in the setting though. Even Argonians can interbreed with Man and Met, it's just a matter of the social lines that need to be crossed for it to happen.

pulsar root
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Species doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well as race and besides its fine, no need to complicate things.

haughty hornet
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Hello 👋

tardy tiger
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Clearly the superior race is the one in the lore scale Imperial City.

The Cyrodilic Chariot Racing (made up on the spot but I doubt we'll ever see a Circus/hippodrome in video game scale given what's needed for chariot racing and the size of the building).

feral viper
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The problem is, Race comes with all kinds of extra baggage. It's one of those words that, regardless of how it's used in a fictional setting, brings with it all the real world social complications.

It's just one that hasn't entered vulgarity yet, because so many people STILL think it's accurate in reality.

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We wouldn't be having this discussion about the N or G words, despite Race fitting into the same linguistic category.

dim reef
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I say we call them Creatures

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Creature 1, Creature 2, Creature 3

timid drum
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Y e s

feral viper
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Great games.

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Interestingly enough, Creatures 2 was the game that introduced me to modding.

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Regardless, Species ALSO doesn't work, because the developmental history of Tamriel is radically different.

The closest you could get to the taxonomy of Species would be Ehlnofey... But all moral life are Ehlnofey. Including animals, it seems.

And while most humanoid groups seem to be able to interbreed, they certainly can't with Animals.

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Then you have the Daedra problem, because Daedra and Mortals can also interbreed.

So real world classifications are simply going to be useless in trying to organize TESs groups.

pulsar root
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Humans, Elves, Orcs, Khajits(Or cats, Cats cats), Argonians And whatever else.

inland shale
feral viper
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It's worth noting that, Nature doesn't actually care about our classifications of things. As much as some dolts like to misrepresent it as such, Evolution doesn't result in explicit blocks of organisms emerging as-is.

It's all about degrees of difference, and we just draw circles around certain groups when we decide they're different enough.

We TRY to standardize the criteria, but it's a non-standard process so that's a bit tough.

pulsar root
feral viper
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Ultimately it doesn't really matter what they're called. You could call them Snickerdoodles. The nature of life in Tamriel means that real world criteria can't be directly applied to it.

What we DO know, however, is that Racial Characteristics as reflected in game are stereotypes and don't actually represent anything inherent to the populations in question.

slow loom
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It would be interesting to see some hybrid races. It's a tricky situation but race is the closest and easily understood term for most. It's sounds right even though it probably isn't.

pulsar root
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I'd rather they add Minotaur as a race. Do something fun with that

slow loom
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I think they'd need a certain intelligence level such as being able to communicate to be considered a playable race. Not saying Minotaurs can't talk but that is my assumption.

dim reef
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I want more dremora baddies characters ngl

slow loom
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For a moment i confused my TES lore with Witcher lore. I thought the Sphere Convergence happened in TES. But that does lead to a cool idea of the planes of oblivion converging with TES lands. In that scenario it might make sense that you could play as a some of the baddie races.

dim reef
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If not playable, i won't mind a companion atleast. Do it Todd and my life is yours ArgonianCheer

feral viper
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That's what Bal TRIED to accomplish in ESO.

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Plane Mergers are a thing in TES, but Mundus is uniquely protected from them by the Liminal Barriers.

dim reef
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He would suck mundus dry tho. It's less a merge and more a dilution

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Also he was after our souls too

feral viper
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His goal was to pull everything in Mundus, into Coldharbour, leaving the Liminal Barriers as an empty shell.

Because those barriers prevent the normal collision and merger interactions that happen in Oblivion.

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If you can't absorb the bottle, dump out everything in it.

dim reef
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Yeah so essentially sucking us dry

feral viper
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Vivec, probably

slow loom
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It does feel like we are waiting on the third Daedric invasion.

feral viper
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Because Bethesda has no ideas beyond Demon Invasion.

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Anyway, the race discussion highlights a big part of why I hate them as a mechanical element, especially in the context of TES.

We know the people's of Tamriel aren't definitive. And we know they can intermix and create different expressions of different traits.

But the Race system in game utterly fails to reflect any of that.

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And you can't just have Half-X Half-Y in the current model, because you'd require an entirely new race pick for every single combination.

slow loom
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They do seem to have skipped over and ignored that detail.

dim reef
# feral viper Because Bethesda has no ideas beyond Demon Invasion.

Ngl if there's more dremora baddies this time Im supporting it
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mehrunes'_Harbinger

Oblivion:Mehrunes' Harbinger

Mehrunes' Harbinger is a non-hostile Dremora encountered within Mingo Cave during the related quest. She is essential and immune to damage.
As part of the quest, she will grant you a zero-cost Summon Mehrunes' Harbinger spell. This spell will allow you to summon her at any time to request Cataclysm armor and weapons.

feral viper
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Just in terms of the base races, you'd be looking at 100 Races to choose from. Which is just stupid to include in a game.

slow loom
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I could imagine a slider that mixes them to varying degrees.

feral viper
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If you build a better character design system though, you can allow for the racial stereotypes we have, AND allow people to create whatever hybrids they want, as they want.

dim reef
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Yeah their CC has gotten better. We can definitely do combinations in the next game

feral viper
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Want to play a mostly Dunmer with a bit of Redguard ancestry? Take a Dunmeri Phenotype and then select Redguard-liks traits.

Want a Dremora Ancestor? Sneak in a magical trait hinting at that.

dim reef
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See that's something i liked about Starfield. You can actually choose your trait instead of it being pre selected to your class

slow loom
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But you can also only play as human in Starfield. Races would be even more pointless than they already are besides appearance if they have zero special traits.

dim reef
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True but it shows it's possible

pulsar root
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Contextually different

slow loom
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It could be another added edition on top of racial benefits. Like a backstory.

dim reef
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Maybe they can do fixed and custom races.
Fixed races have fixed traits but if you do custom mashups you can choose your traits

slow loom
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Bannerlord and their character creator comes to mind as to how you could do it.

dim reef
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Just expand on that and it can work

slow loom
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It is one of the better aspects of Starfield for sure.

feral viper
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I think the simplest explanation, is to basically do what they did with Classes in the past.

You have 10 presets for the standard races, representing the basic stereotype for those people.

Or, you can select Custom, where you pick an Appearance, and then your own traits. Allowing you to play off stereotype, mixed ancestry, minmaxed, whatever you want.

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The advantage to such an approach, is it would make it easy to add other populations later (just need the model really) and you could also have a range of traits that may not even BE linked to specific stereotypical populations.

dim reef
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That's what i was suggesting too. Yeah. Have fixed and custom classes