#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

forest surge
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The thing is to, is that when we look at Orcs in comparison, Tiber tried to stamp them out as Civilians of the Empire, and they were simple enemies in The First Two Games, I look at this as a similar case where Orcs could have lost there place in Civilization completely if not for Individual’s like Gortwog making the effort.

feral viper
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Indeed.

tardy tiger
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It's a more Imperial thing. They just do not care at all. Same for Dragonborn.

feral viper
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And you can't tell me that Minotaurs in full Legion armour doesn't stir something primal in you.

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#BringMinotaursBackIntoTheFold

tardy tiger
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Sure I can want that. But man does TES really doesn't want to do anything with the Imperials. It's why Dragonborn is a Nordic thing and Minotaurs and more a Reachmen then.

feral viper
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I mean, for the first 2 games, the Imperials weren't even a thing

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Also, note to Bethesda. Imperials is a dumb name.

forest surge
# feral viper And you can't tell me that Minotaurs in full Legion armour doesn't stir somethin...

One common observation of Minotaurs in the wild is that they tend to congregate around ancient ruins that were of significance to the Alessian Empire. Some believe they are drawn to guard these places on an instinctual level, possibly due to their ancestral connection to Morihaus, Belharza, or the Empire itself.

Honestly this tells me that even after being hunted down, part of them still wants to come back to the fold of what was essentially there home.

feral viper
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Rename them Cyrods..

tardy tiger
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in TES3 they were called Cyrodiil. I recall that because I tend to play Imperial so I always had NPCs calling me Cyrodiil

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TES4,5 and ESO don't meantion it much

feral viper
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Yeah. Mer have gotten more emphasis on their own names. Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer... give the Manish Races the same treatment.

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Call them THEIR names for themselves.

feral viper
tardy tiger
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I need to find where I installed Morrowidn so I can pull the Cyrodiil lines

forest surge
feral viper
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It's never too late.

forest surge
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Some are capable of speaking

feral viper
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TES in general requires a touch of that hope. It's NEVER too late to do better, to right the wrongs of the past. All it takes is great people to make the first steps.

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Though I suppose that's a general problem with modern Fantasy... it's gotten very bleak.

forest surge
tardy tiger
feral viper
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I mean, Native Americans were views as barely more than animals for awhile. For no other reason than the hostility with which they treated outsiders.

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Outsiders who tended to shoot them on sight, so deserved such hostility.

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The Minotaurs, hell, even Goblins, Lhamia, all 'Beast' races, deserve a deeper look.

forest surge
feral viper
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Absolutely.

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Like... have the new Heir to the Mede Dynasty turn to trying to bring Minotaurs back into the fold l to boost his tenuous position, and quell a growing civil war in the Empite

forest surge
forest surge
feral viper
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As well as just being bad ass

forest surge
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Considering There strength

feral viper
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Imagine entering a Legion camp to talk to its commander, and having its Legate be a fully armored Minotaur

forest surge
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Someone trying to start trouble and you feel nostril air on your neck from the Minotaur. XD

feral viper
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There's a Cinematic 'Wow' moment for you.

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You enter the camp expecting ab Imperial, and an 8 foot tall Bull Man comes out of the tent instead

forest surge
feral viper
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From a wider narrative perspective, you could also use it to Push a very different theme for the Mede Dynasty.

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The Septims were about Imperial Authority. Divine Right. The Medes, as they stand, are portrayed as imposters, pretenders.

The Medes could transition into Cooperation. Legitimately trying to bring the peoples of Tamriel together rather than imposing their will on the continent.

forest surge
feral viper
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Or anyone really. Doesn't have to be the Medes, could be anyone who replaces them. Though I am an unashamed Mede fanboy.

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Have them bring the Minotaurs back into the fold serving as a proof of concept that gets them the support to send envoys and build relationships with the other minor races. Giants, Goblins, Lhamia etc.

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Soon, we've opened up new ways, gameplay wise, to engage with all these different groups across Tamriel, instead of them just being generic enemies we stab in the face.

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A underlying theme of the next 3 games could be about bringing these peoples into the fold, empowering them and building towards expanded race lists in the future

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It's not like being a playable race has ever stopped us from fighting Nords, Altmer and Khajiit.

livid ingot
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I think size and body type are bigger obstacles honestly

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Same pressures the Khajiit and Argonians succumbed to. And they weren't even that different from the other playable races

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Minotaur would be clipping through doorways, Lamia (and probably the others) would need wholly unique animations.

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And God forbid you have a plotpoint that involves boots (Oblivion's Thieve's Guild and KotK questlines come to mind)

feral viper
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Oh, GAMEPLAY wise there's plenty of problems

wide garnet
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Know what I think would be funny? If an assassin (Dark Brotherhood or otherwise) attempting to kill you tries to intimidate you by licking their blade, only to remember that they poisoned their blade with Jarrin Root after the fact, and then drops dead.

feral viper
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I think I saw that in a king Fu film.

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Or a spoof of one maybe...

left seal
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Size isn't an issue you just change it, it's happened before, so ogres and minotaurs going down to altmer size isn't a big deal anymore than goblins and reiklings going to male bosmer size, as for form eh just makes economy of scale kick in, 3+ digitigrade races starts to make the cost to modify boots more reasonable,

feral viper
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Or, simply making bigger doors.

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Though really, I doubt either Minotaurs or Ogres would have much difficulty fitting through most doors. They'd just need to turn a bit and duck a little.

left seal
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That doesn't translate well to tes game play,

feral viper
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Not directly, but it means there's enough room to just fudge it.

dim reef
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I was 13 when skyrim came out.
I'll likely be 30 when ES6 arrives

left seal
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Blame PC gamers, they are the ones always hounding for ridiculous jumps in graphics and frame rates that caused dev cycles to spiral so far out of control,

eager remnant
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A more important factor is Bethesda Game Studios taking on a third IP and making two Fallout gamnes in a row.

feral viper
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Indeed. We aren't even out of normal turnover for them. The simple fact is they've released 3 major titles since Skyrim. As a relatively small studio, by AAA standards.

feral viper
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Anyway... has anyone else seen this 140 page document on Reddit where someone wrote a thesis on TES6 ideas?

livid ingot
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No I haven't.

feral viper
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It's a doozy. But it's also one hell of a conversation starter.

quartz ivy
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I’m sure ESVI will be great, I just…I have long freed my mind of what I would ideally want from it, because that ain’t gonna happen

AKA it’s not set in Elsweyr 🐱

feral viper
quartz ivy
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Points for passion at the very least

feral viper
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I'm probably going to slap a text to speech on it, and listen to it while I paint.

river cloak
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Elder scrolls castles out iOS yet ?

quartz ivy
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Or soft launch, rather

river cloak
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Oh okay Ty

static dragon
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ES6, when?

eager remnant
solemn socket
left seal
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Star field has fueled my hopes for 6 featuring naval gameplay,

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Also they should bring back flails, flails are cool,

feral viper
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Not really something to bring BACK, as they never actually appeared.

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But I could see them having some interesting value.

I'm more of a 'Fix basic combat before adding things on' sort, though.

nimble pond
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What is Elder Scrolls Castles, thought it was Nintendo at first?

forest surge
nimble pond
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Ah I see. Graphic style threw me off

left seal
nimble pond
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Need to have a button so I can put stuff inside the flail ball (or any ball and chain weapon) that opens and closes the little slots when i swing it towards enemies. Maybe shoot streams of fire out of it just for fun

feral viper
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Like most of Daggerfall, it's options aren't actually meaningful in any way, and are just there for the sake of being there.

left seal
feral viper
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There is a difference between good flavour, and bad flavour though.

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And I tend to put things that are behaviourally the same and just look different for the sake of padding, as Bad Flavour.

feral viper
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Like, as much as I used to be on Team Spear... my current thought process regarding it is very different.

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If you can't find a way to functionally integrate it into the game to have a meaningful role... then don't both.

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Skyrim was the first game in the entire franchise where weapons had actual, real differences, rather than all doing the same thing with differing skins. Lean into that. Improve on that.

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Though, that also opens up conflict with how RPG players typically think. Which is a much deeper mechanical issue with the genre than just 'Does this actually do anything'.

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RPG players have been conditioned over decades of rather poor game design to think in very limited terms. The Class system and its high standing is symptomatic of this, but also drives it.

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Mechanics ultimately shape how the player thinks while playing the game. And over long periods of time, this can become endemic.

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For instance, most RPG players look at their character like: I am X. I do X.

And that overly simplistic approach dictates game design because of the mindset of players and developers..

I am a Knight. I fight with Sword and Shield.

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Except... that's not a Knight. That is an oversimplification of Knights crammed into a shallow Class Identity.

A Knight is a highly trained warrior class of the lower nobility, experienced in half a dozen weapons and martial arts, capable of being a deadly melee opponent regardless of what's in their hands or what armour they wear.

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It's not: I am X, therefore I do X.

It's: I am X. I am skilled in A, F, G and S through Z. have Y. My opponent has Z. Therefore I must 1.

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And a well designed gameplay dynamic should not only facilitate that more complex behavioural approach, but actively condition Players to think that way.

left seal
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No, just being a different look is fine, it's so freaking lame how we are down to 7 core weapon types and for what? Crappy physics objects that make decorating impossible? Stupid looking armor changes because of character sex? If they can waste time and money on stupid animations for crafting stations they can have some decent weapon variety,

dim reef
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did elder scrolls legends get shut down?

feral viper
feral viper
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Technically 4 types when you count daggers, but really their use is so critically limited they shouldn't count.

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Now, the way it was approached still isn't exactly GOOD. But it was an improvement over the superficial window dressing of past weapons.

feral viper
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All of this said, a better, fundamental combat system could very easily address these problems.

But then it becomes a question of... better systems that allow you to expand in the future and bring in multiple other weapon types and behaviours...

Or just go back to the superficial window dressing of yesteryear.

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I would very much rather 3 weapons in a robust system that has room for expansion, than functionally one weapon with 12 different visual styles or meaningless names.

dark dagger
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Heeeeeeeeeey so when’s this elder scrolls 6 coming out!!!

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Frig you dyno bot ik you see this 😡

eager remnant
solemn socket
dark dagger
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Does anybody have any recommendations for games similar to Skyrim (other than earlier scrolls games)

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I love the leveling & the looting mechanics

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There was this one game I played like 8 years ago on roblox which had similar leveling with weapons you got from killing mfs & you had to grind xp on them before going into another area

feral viper
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Right now, Fallout 4 and Starfield, though neither are Medieval Fantasy.

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Also Oblivion, ish.

eager remnant
# dark dagger I love the leveling & the looting mechanics

There aren't many games that use TES's skill-use leveling system. At the moment all I can think of is Dungeon Siege, which is a classless, skill-use game. I'm sure there are others. But I can't recall any at the moment. Most RPGs use a form of Dungeon-and Dragons-style XP leveling systems.

dark dagger
feral viper
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Typically straight EXP. You get EXP for killing enemies and completing tasks, and once you accumulate enough EXP, you level up. When you level up, you get bonuses and points you can assign to skills and abilities.

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The TES style format for leveling is pretty rare. Present really only in TES games after Daggerfall, Dungeon Siege, and Quest for Glory.

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Of those, TES is really the only one with any games released in the last 20 years.

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Though Fable kinda used something similar...

left seal
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Some RPGs have the tes system as a side feature where using certain weapons gives bonuses to them I believe borderlands 1 and dead island had this, it's just generally better to go with the classic XP system to avoid needing weird tedious gimmicks to keep some skills realevent

eager remnant
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The phrase "wierd tedious gimmicks" perfectly defines XP systems, as far as I'm concerned. XP systems make no kind of logical sense to me whatsoever. The idea that my character can become a master lockpicker by slaying monsters and visiting points of interest or become proficient at swordplay by using a bow is ridiculous. TES's skill-use system, as flawed as it is, is the only one that even begins to mirror how real life actually works.

feral viper
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Agreed.

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EXP systems tend to be very disjointed from the actual character activities. I got 50exp from delivering a book. Great. What did I learn from that paper boy job? How to summon the denizens of hell.

Yeah. That makes sense.

quartz ivy
feral viper
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Though, I won't say I ENTIRELY disagree with Omega. Some of the attempts to make the Skills relevant does definitely push into the Gimicky

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Though I think that's symptomatic of a more... Endemic problem with Bethesda Game Studios and how they approach games.

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It's actually something Zaric Zhakarion brings up in his most recent video, and one which I think is Bethesda's main problem.

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It lacks a cohesive creative vision.

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Rather, Bethesda functions more as a quilt weaving party, which each developer contributing their own ideas at different times, sometimes in isolation, and not always with clear cooperation at a systemic level.

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A prime example of this from Starfield is, per Zaric's own video, the clear missed utilisation between Stun Weapons, and the the Lawman aspects of the Rangers.

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The game literally lets you disable enemies, and yet the Lawman faction doesn't even use that mechanic AT ALL.

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And this reflects in TES as well. With some Skills clearly being there not because anyone thought to integrate them, but more because someone remembered they needed to be or players would get mad, and just tacked them on at the end of the day.

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Speech related skills, particularly, have been garbage since basically day 1. They exist just to pad the list, and lack any real creative link to the game as a whole.

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And this, I think, stems from that general lack of creative vision. There's no one going 'Ok, this is what we're going to do' and then building that vision from the ground up.

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Instead, it's ala patchwork format which sees different ideas and contributions at different stages often without deeper connections and relation to the game systems.

forest surge
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I’m confused on what exactly your trying to specify

rapid pendant
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Is there an elder scrolls online chat or does this one count for that too?

bitter kestrel
rapid pendant
feral viper
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They're just sorta tacked on, rather than having any meaningful role in playing or interaction. And at best represent the rather crude 'Number goes up!' Style of progress.

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Which works alright in an EXP system, but is pretty terrible in an Activity Driven system.

forest surge
forest surge
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It’s not something your necessarily going to see but it answers that one question that was lingering in many minds, especially cause you don’t often see the process of how.

feral viper
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Oh, so do I. Maybe not the same way as ESO does, but like... Weapons and armour were HUGELY variable even in a relatively small area.

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You don't need to divide them like Imperial, Reachmen, Dunmer etc. You can literally have Knights of the Lion, Paladins of Mara, Gah-julan etc.

feral viper
forest surge
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I love the books going into detail on the separate pieces of armor.

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Northern Elsweyr Style vs Southern Elsweyr Style.

feral viper
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Yeah. And I have a whole... Ramble about crafting, and motifs, and getting the most milage out of your assets...

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But that's again a 'Vision' issue, as these sorts of things need to be part of the game from the ground up. They can't just be tacked on at the end.

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For instance, if you want Speech Skills to be relevant, you need to DESIGN Dialogue and Interactions from Day 1 with that in mind. Just throwing in more Persuasion Checks in the Quest Writing Phase isn't going to address the issue..

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If you want a more varied and deeper crafting and motifs system, it needs to be integrated holistically in the entire game at a fundamental level. Models, rigging, procedural generation, etc.

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It's not something you just throw in at the end.

feral viper
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It was hyperbolic, so I agree with you.

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I have no relevant coding skill for the last 18 years, and my only time organising a large group of people was during Basic
.

feral viper
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But, to be more serious, and use a specific example... Let's look at Unconscious as a gameplay element.

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Since Morrowind, there have been attempts to weave in the idea that you can knock someone out. Typically through Stamina Depletion, though Starfield uses dedicated EM weapons instead, effectively triggering a secondary health bar that the EM weapon impacts.

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Both work, in a technical sense, but aren't exactly easy or intuitive.

In earlier approaches it was almost impossible to actually deplete the enemies Stamina and knock them out. And in Starfield it's linked to specific weapons, so if you're in a situation where you don't have one in your pocket, too bad.

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But the issues here go even deeper, because at the end of the day these are both front end solutions to a problem. The game has no way to apprehend, arrest, or even really TRACK non-leathal disables.

If you decide to stun everyone on a mission, the game will still treat it as if you killed them. Or outright REQUIRE you to finish the job, because none of the necessary back end work was done to actually support that option.

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So rather than starting with 'Heres what we want to do. Now we build a game that can do that'. The approach has more been 'Heres the game we built. So how do we make it do X?'.

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And that falls back on the general lack of driving vision. The patchwork approach necessitates very shallow generalities of gameplay, and then attempts to slap add-ons to that to fit in things as people come up with them.

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To make rendering opponents unconscious work, REALLY work, you need a Health system which organically facilitates it on the fly. You need NPC status tracking that can recognise it. You need quest structures that account for it and facilitate it. You need AI behaviours contingent on it. You need activities which capitalise on it.

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To co-opt the meme... 'It just works' isn't enough. It needs to be functional and meaningfully integrated into the gameplay.

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The same problem exists with Speech Skills, Bartering, Faction Leadership, etc.

forest surge
feral viper
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Oh, totes. I was talking more generally, bringing that idea forward into the main series..

opaque pumice
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Any thoughts on possibly getting another class in 6?

eager remnant
left seal
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Eh it could help, especially as they more and more want to remove the rise from nobody in favor of chosen ones who skip to the mid point minimum on the power fantasy,

feral viper
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Yeeeah... Except that Rise from Nobody has never been part of the series, sooo.

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The only catch is, one time you had to PROVE you were the Messiah.

left seal
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Except you were still expected to do some proper work, put in your time in the trenches not just funneled along a single quest line per faction, mages guild back in Morrowind you started off helping the undergrads before you started interning with professors, the level up screens also made it clear you weren't special before that for the first time you were really applying yourself, also being the chosen one came with one perk where Azura made the corpus cure work perfectly on you, other then that you were just another random schmuck who met the basic criteria she laid out in her prophecy, oblivion again just someone in the right place at the right time, bit more pushy about the main quest and the factions were a bit smaller, arena and daggerfall were also about random hero who happened to be incredibly competent daggerfall did give you a bit more hype with you being a personal friend of the emperor with some deeds under your belt, Skyrim however made you a person handed a freebie and rushed you into underserved positions of power, I love Skyrim but I will not ignore it's flaws,

feral viper
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I'm not ignoring its flaws, but misrepresenting the franchise doesn't do it any favours either.

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You've ALWAYS been a Chosen One paradigm. Whether or not you had to do some leg work to prove that to others is a secondary issue.

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Hell, Skyrim was the first game that didn't instantly call you out as the Chosen One from square one.

Arena had you identified as the only one who could save the Empire in its opening.

Daggerfall called you out as the Emperor's close personal friend and most trusted agent in its intro video.

Morrowind named you Chosen in its opening (and only) cutscene.

Oblivion calls you out multiple times in its intro.

Skyrim makes you wait 3 quests before even identifying you as the Chosen One.

left seal
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None of the others gave you special powers that were specifically needed for the main quest though, you were just the random person who fit the bill, being dragon born means you don't earn anything and devalue everyone else in existence to bring nothing of importance because they weren't born with your super special powers,

eager remnant
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Skyrum did not "rush us into underserved positions of power." Skyrim actively discourages us from rushing into undeseved positions of power. Lady Brisienna tells us "I will expect you as soon as possible." Ria Silmane tells us "There are no others left to carry on this fight." Sellus Gravius tells us to find Caius Cosades in Morrowind ("You know your duties. Take that package to Caius Cosades in Balmora."). Baurus tells us to find Jauffre in Chorrol ("You must get the Amulet to Jauffre. Take no chances, but proceed to Weynon Priory immediately. Got it?"). Skyrim is the only game in the sries that does not "push us into underserved positions of power." Both Ralof and Havar tell us we should probably split up.

feral viper
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Again, you are conflating different issues. Having Powers isn't a problem, nor does it suddenly make you 'Chosen'. The Chosen aspect is simply a vehicle for powers, a vehicle that has been there the whole time

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Nor is it inherently tied to those powers. Normal people can learn to Shout in TES and the whole point of the Starborn is that they are NORMAL PEOPLE whose drive to explore leads them to access something special.

feral viper
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But at the end of the day, you aren't a Chosen One because they want you to have powers. They want you to have powers because they think those abilities are cool (honestly, I disagree, but hey... I disagree with a lot). They are simply using the Chosen One trope, a trope which has always been core to the franchise, as a vehicle to explain those powers. In ONE game.

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If they wanted to make you a rando schmuck in TES6 with no prophecy (a poor idea, though the grognards would probably rejoice) they could still very easily cram powers in there. Just like they did with Starfield.

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All it takes is a macguffin and you have the same powers for a regular bloke.

left seal
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The rushed into positions of power comment was aimed at the faction quest lines, tons of people make fun of how ridiculous it is for you to get the positions you get for completing a hand full of simple quests, the older games had a feel of you starting out at the bottom and working your way up, that Skyrim feels like it lacks,

feral viper
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That'd still not really true. Except for the Dark Brotherhood, which... Well... Is garbage all around.

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That the questlined are too short, doesn't mean you're rushed within the narrative.

left seal
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Your put in the circle after like 3 quests, literally almost everyone alive at the college is more suited for the position of arch mage

feral viper
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You're put in the Circle be because you are made aware of privileged information due to unforseen circumstances, and it's either that or kill you.

And sure, academically, but you have to literally complete the College Questline to become Archmage.

How having to totally complete the story in order to be elevated to a position is 'rushed' is beyond me.

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The STORY may be rushed, but within the context of the story, the promotion is.

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I mean, compare that to Oblivion, where you become Travel/Lucien/Oryn/GreyFox's golden child after showing yourself to being competent enough to not choke on your own tongue.

livid ingot
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I still find it funny you don't have to cast a single spell in Oblivion's Mage's Guild questline and become Archmage

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Not that Skyrim is much better in that regard 🤔

feral viper
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It's MARGINALLY better. But not a lot.

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Technically, you don't have to cast a single spell in Morrowind either. You can bypass all the skill requirements with Trainers, though it's expensive and tricky to accomplish.

vast wasp
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I hope TES VI goes back to the Morrowind formula (or Oblivion at the very least), but I'm not holding my breath. Overall, Morrowind is the greatest entry in the franchise for countless reasons, and I wish BGS would focus more on what made Morrowind so great when designing their future titles.

The magic system in TES since Morrowind, for example, has just seen downgrade after downgrade, with Oblivion's being the last one that is serviceable in vanilla play. At this point, I'm afraid that TES VI is just gunna put a fireball in your hand and call it a day with how much was already removed from Skyrim.

Unfortunately, us "grognards" are a very quickly dying breed and very few people in the community seem to care about having gameplay with a lot of depth, they just wanna make characters that grunt and whack things.

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Something I've said time and time again is that while it would obviously take more effort, you don't have to choose between certain parts of the fanbase when designing a game. I mean, Oblivion was already proof of this since it had elements for both casual and enthusiast players. It had the more accessible gameplay of what would become Skyrim, but with the options to deep dive (as much as you still could, I guess) if you wanted to, of Morrowind. Not everything was there from either, but still. I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't seem studios want to do this anymore.

Using the magic system as an example again, you're not required to make spells, but you're allowed to if you want to. I don't see why Skyrim couldn't have had spellcrafting. Sure, people will say it's very unbalanced, but the magic and alchemy mechanics in TES have always been completely shattered when it came to balance, even for standard spells.

slow garnet
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If there was one complaint I had about Oblivion, it's that there were too many places where there was no cap on the stats of even mundane monsters. You couldn't out-level them because they levelled up with you: rather than they levelled up with you up to a point, but if you went past them, you could get far enough past them to administer a proper righteous smackdown.

vast wasp
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Oh, and something I'll add to the end here is that I actually like how Starfield, unlike TES, doesn't allow you to become the leader of all factions. The reason I like this is because if none of the NPCs are going to acknowledge your achievements, then why bother?

vast wasp
livid ingot
# vast wasp I hope TES VI goes back to the Morrowind formula (or Oblivion at the very least)...

I don't think Skyrim is a great judge for how they'll handle magic going forward. It was perhaps the weakest showings for magic in the entire series, but part of that is because of the major role Shouts played, which were basically spells but with a cooldown instead of burning through your magicka. So magicka was scaled back to make Shouts more attractive and to make sure the combination wasn't too potent.

vast wasp
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Encounter zones and level-based areas and enemies work perfectly fine. There's no reason a simple bandit, for example, should be wearing a set of armor forged by the blood of gods.

slow garnet
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I don't mind a certain amount of it - "if you're really low level you'll get rats, if you're a bit higher there's a chance of them being wolves, if you're even higher it could be a troll, if you're really high level it could be minotaurs" is reasonable... But having done that, don't then go and also make the minotaurs level up exponentially with the player. Especially when the player might level up by levelling their speech and stealth skills and be underpowered in combat because said minotaurs have only combat skills.

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I hardly used Shouts in Skyrim, because of the sheer pain in the posterior of actually switching between them.

To be honest I find the same is true of spells, which is why I end up defaulting either to "armoured warrior" or "stealth archer" in Elder Scrolls games in general.

vast wasp
livid ingot
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I do find it disappointing that, despite all the speculation before the game released about being able to combine different spells from different hands, we ended up with nothing other than the ability to strengthen damaging spells by double equipping them.

slow garnet
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Also, it's one thing to have "aggroed monsters inside the player's range can call for help, and pull other monsters into the fight from outside the player's range if they're inside the monster's range", but quite another to have "aggroed monsters inside the player's range can call for help, then the ones they aggro can also call for help even when still outside the player's range, then those too will chain-call for help, and before you know where you are half of the dungeon is on its way to the first room and if you somehow survive it then the next eight rooms are empty because all the monsters came here".

livid ingot
#

Would have been a good replacement to spell making if you could combine two spells on the fly for different effects

vast wasp
livid ingot
#

yeah, it was really not economical.

#

Unfortunately I don't expect to really see a lot of innovations for the next title. Starfield was the first of their games I had played since Skyrim and I can't say I have been super impressed with the innovations they've made over the years. Dungeons and combat basically feel the same for instance. But we never know of course

vast wasp
#

That's pretty much why I'm not holding my breath.

Don't get me wrong at all, I've loved every second of the 400 or so hours I've put into Starfield, and I've really appreciated a lot of the changes they've made to certain mechanics to (what feels like) modernize them and breathe new life into something they've always had.

At the same time...random body loot? No true uniques? Just off the top of my head, but these two things were incredibly disappointing. :/

I'm really hoping that TES VI is a return to what once was, as it were, kinda like how AC: Mirage appears to be (I haven't played it yet).

#

Oh and for the record, I'm not a gatekeeper. I believe gaming should be for everyone. Accessibility features to enhance the experience of people with disabilities, for example, should flat out be a requirement for launch. No accessibility? No launch. There should also be gameplay options for the less-inclined and the more-inclined, instead of just focusing on one group. Games have been doing most of this already, but are lagging behind in certain other areas.

This all being said, I'm not saying every game is for every person, nor do I want it to be, because then fans of certain genres are just gunna get more and more diluted experiences. All I want here is for TES VI to be a fully-featured TES game that would make any fan, new or old, happy to play it.

feral viper
#

I'm very much on the opposite side of things. The more I look at the past, the less satisfied I am with it.

#

Magic, in particular, is very stale and unappealing in older games.

#

Though if I'm being entirely honest, I don't think there is a single game ever made that did magic well.

eager remnant
#

I've already enumerated the many ways in which I think Skyrim's magic mechanics are superior to that of previous games and I don't feel like typing it all up again. I'll just say that I'd rather Bethesda improve and expand on Skyrim's more sophisticated magic system than go back to the primitive mechanics of older games.

feral viper
#

Indeed. I think, at the end of the day, Skyrim's approach has much more room to grow, whereas the older approach is basically as good as it can get.

#

At the end of the day, as I've dug deeper and deeper into RPGs, I've come to the conclusion that... The Old Ways kinda suck.

They are, in actuality, the 'Mile wide, inch deep' paradigm. Not intentionally, of course, but because they burden themselves with Tabletop limitations and fail to take advantage of mechanical differences in the two mediums. They lean on superficial differences to make it FEEL like you have lots of choice, but that choice is almost always just cosmetic.

#

More Skills that all just do the same things with a small subset of items. More spell effects that don't actually change up Magic in any way beyond point and click. More dialogue options that don't actually do or mean anything, or give any insight I to the world.

#

Then there's Oblivion which... Well, doesn't really even do that.

I don't like to play the 'Is or is not an RPG' game, but of all the franchise... Oblivion is definitely closest to 'Is Not'.

feral viper
#

Alright. Tonight... I knuckle down and make it through that that 140 page document...

river cloak
#

I need es6 😆 why can’t I time travel

#

Just discovered Beyond Skyrim projects looking forward to them

karmic thunder
#

YOOOOO I have a release date for ES6
It comes out on the- gets assainated by Tod

desert tree
#

Anyone know the stats of the adoring fan on castles?

inland shale
#

Shout moooooods

feral viper
glass fern
#

Card games may not be up everyone's alley, but TESL is a great game worth trying for anyone who do like the genre.

feral viper
#

It's certainly better than Gwent ever was

#

Even if I absolutely hate the main story.

wary bane
#

Has anyone been able to find the trademark for The Elder Scrolls: Castles? I cannot find it anywhere. Is there a way to register a trademark secretly?

feral viper
#

Even if you tried, it would probably get reversed through Precedence. So it's not worth trying.

shadow echo
#

Stone Shank Frame ... Trying to find this last bit for the OK ring... any tips, watched most YT vids, but nothing helpful yet (just ploughing Nodes in Glenumbra)

dusk iron
#

I try not to worry

#

Wow deleted my mesagae

spare anchor
dusk iron
#

Its about tes6

#

I didn't break any rules

spare anchor
#

Abusive language and disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. This includes comments directed at ZeniMax/Bethesda employees, mods, your fellow community members, or other groups or companies.

dusk iron
#

Please tell me how "im worried for tes6" is abusive language

#

And I wont say anything

spare anchor
#

We do not allow conversations on disciplinary actions in the Server, regardless of whether it relates to in-game violations or Server violations.

If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action you received on the Bethesda Game Studios Discord, please contact the Moderators via <@&842429330478071858>.

dusk iron
#

I just contacted them and still didn't explain what rule Im breaking

#

I read all rules

#

Fine next time I wont say "im worried for tes6" whatever

#

Guess we arent allowed to say something negative but I get it this is devs server you only want positive feedback so I wont say anything

feral viper
dim reef
#

Cough

hearty crest
#

Y'all have any favorite Heacanons/Theories/etc for any TES game?

I was just wondering since I started making a google doc for all my headcanons(or headcanons from other people that I like as well).

tardy tiger
#

@left seal (just got back to the PC)

Classes have value people want to define the character, so getting some points in some skills and some starting gear can help with that, especially if we get rid of racial skill bonuses,
You don't need classes for that though. What your describing can be done by a backstory.

Classes really only have value when they have unique abilities which isn't really done in Bethesda games.

feral viper
#

Classes exist to cram YOUR character into a predefined box for the sake of game balance. And players have been conditioned to think they are there to 'Enhance Roleplay' when in reality they do the opposite.

#

But that delves into deeper problems with RPGs and how players perceive them in general.

left seal
#

Lack of structure leads to terrible design, heck just look how bad skyrim's balance is because someone didn't restrict sneak attack to daggers,

feral viper
#

Structure didn't help Morrowind or Oblivion's balance either.

#

Bethesda simply does not make balanced games. Never have, and I doubt they ever will.

left seal
#

Those didn't have anymore structure,

tardy tiger
#

TES really is more lack of structure. It's why Morrowind let you go crazy with alchemy and enchants.
Oblivion got messed over by it's issue with scaling

feral viper
#

They had (terrible) Classes and Attributes. Which makes them more structured by deifnition

#

On the whole, if you're looking for balance? You're looking at the wrong studio

tardy tiger
#

Though Blizzard has a lack of structure in the sense of the devs have a lot more freedom then you think. In that the quest designers do the story an it's very hands off.

left seal
#

The classes were fine, they were literally just flavor for your starting attributes,

feral viper
#

And locked into a god awful Major-Minir-Misx skill system that treated your identity as inborn aptitude

#

Which makes no sense and locked you into a particular progression path, even if the lines in a TES game are somewhat fuzzier

left seal
#

This is a waste of energy, just go play og god of war or something that removes all individual choices of identity playing kratos is no different then playing tes with all skills set to an arbitrary number, that's what you demand so go do it instead of declaring the need to erase the RPG genre because you don't want people to have fun and interesting characters,

feral viper
#

I can say, quite confidently, that I have made more interesting characters in Skyrim, than in either Oblivion or Morrowind.

#

Want to be a Mage who accidentally kills an innocent with a Fireball and swears off magic altogether?

Well too bad! Make another character and start over! Because that's how Morrowind and Oblivion worked.

#

If you don't follow the laid out skillsets of your Class, you simply stop leveling altogether. You CAN'T change your character, you CAN'T grow as a personality.

left seal
#

It's almost like there is a custom class option for some reason,

feral viper
#

All you can do is double down on the flimsy identity to picked at the start. Or push into the inevitable 'Master of Everything' that the games practically mandate

feral viper
left seal
#

And no one is calling for a return to only major and minor skill leveling,

feral viper
#

Alright, I'm not doing this right now. Have fun

left seal
#

Just like no one is calling for the terrible attributes growth system

feral viper
#

Classes. Are. Dumb.

#

Conceptually. Mechanically.

#

All they do is assume that you, the player, is incapable of making decisions on your own and instead need your hand held the whole way through.

#

They don't make sense in settings, they don't make sense mechanically, they actively restrict character options and customisation.

#

They are a relic of Gygax's narrow understanding of the world and are utterly without any practical or thematic value (unless you're playing a stratified Caste society where your role is literally imposed on you from birth)

#

Backgrounds do everything Classes attempted to, better, and without any of the unnecessary baggage Classes brought with them.

left seal
#

You are shoving arguments into others mouths because your entire identity is demanding that everything now to your whims, also for primus sakes type your entire argument at once then post it instead of turning this into the type version of a screaming match where you think if you just post faster and more often your arguments somehow gain merit,

feral viper
#

If this were a forum, that would be much easier to do. But Discords formatting is not suited to long type formats and it gets clunky when you start properly spacing paragraphs.

#

And no. I am preempting the arguments i have dealt with many, many times before. You aren't the first person to call for Classes to return, and this isn't the first time I've had this argument. I'm getting the chaff out of the way.

nimble pond
hearty crest
#

......

feral viper
#

That honestly sounds like a Dimension 20 season...

nimble pond
wary bane
#

Pete Hines, thank you for 24 years at Bethesda. I am sad we won't get to see you comment on Elder Scrolls 6 until it releases. Enjoy your retirement!

eager remnant
quartz ivy
#

It’s always fun to jump into Elder Scrolls chat and see what new delightful insane argument is happening

quartz ivy
desert tree
#

Anyone fight the frost dragon on castles?

feral viper
#

I wish him the best. He's the 3rd name that's moved on recently, from what I have read.

feral viper
desert tree
#

What did you use, I'm almost there but the previous dragon did a lot of dmg, so I'm guessing this one does more

feral viper
#

Sword and shield, bow, and axe.

desert tree
#

Sick yeah the one you get from Tiber should help a lot

feral viper
#

All at least level 3, but I had Steel because of modifiers on items. You definitely want higher if you're still using Iron.

desert tree
#

Yeah for sure

#

Thank you!

feral viper
#

No problem

vast wasp
# feral viper And no. I am preempting the arguments i have dealt with many, many times before....

Classes exist to help make characters different from one another. Sure, they can cut off certain avenues for RP, but like...I've never once felt like I was being too restricted by classes. In Skyrim, every character is basically the same no matter who is playing or what you're doing, it's only through mods that any real difference is achieved.

If you don't like classes that's a perfectly valid opinion that I don't particularly see any issue with, but saying they're all bad and never add anything is a type of blanket statement that is extremely reductive and doesn't feel like it takes any nuance or thought into consideration at all. You may have made the argument a million times, but after reading everything you said, I'm not convinced that the removal of classes is the way to go.

In TES games prior to Skyrim, you can still level any skills outside of your class and be just as proficient with them as if they had been part of your class. This same thing applies to other franchises too, such as Dark Souls, for example. Yes, there are games like WoW, Dragon Age, or Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning (among many, many others) where your class hard-locks you into a specific playstyle, but that's very clearly not the case for most BGS titles.

Using another of your examples about killing an innocent and wanting to dump magic entirely, a character stopping the study of those skills entirely just sounds pretty ignorant to me. It would make more logical sense that the character would stop, but continue researching magic so they can better understand and defend themselves against it. Whether or not that is available in the game doesn't matter, since we're talking pure RP here.

misty isle
#

Hey guys my fallout 1st updated but I didn't get any atoms 😦 my ticket is
231016-007038
Hopefully I get fix it by tomorrow when the store updates! Thank you for the awesome game
GT: Fallen Ravens
Platform: Xbox

vast wasp
#

This is the Elder Scrolls chat, and I doubt BGS does any support in this server. 😅

misty isle
#

Oh boy I doubt you guys can help, haha thanks for eso too tho! Been awhile

vast wasp
# vast wasp Classes exist to help make characters different from one another. Sure, they *ca...

Continuing on from the last paragraph, I can understand having trouble thinking of different RP ideas, as I get that writer's block myself sometimes too. That being said, it's not entirely impossible to create your own world and your own rules, especially when it comes to save editors and console commands. Now obviously I understand those aren't exactly how the games were designed to be played, but like...everything is a tool to help increase enjoyment. If you don't like something, then just change it. BGS games are all about player freedom.

As an example, I'm currently playing Daggerfall and it's awesome to see how long they've had this philosophy. Unfortunately, the game predates a lot of "modern" convenience such as mods or console commands, but it still offers all the freedom, if not more, than any of the later games in the franchise.

The thing I think a lot of people might get hung up on is that outside of forced dialog, you can make the world whatever you want it to be, you just have to use your imagination. Imagination isn't a replacement to game design, it's complimentary and helps add to the experience. Sure, you can go through a game using nothing but what is given to you and have a blast, but if you're the imaginative type, you can have the same amount of fun, if not more, by adding your own thoughts and dialog and worldbuilding to it. Will those manifest themselves into the game? No, but that isn't the point. Game developers can't account for every scenario, so an active imagination helps. It's how we all had so much fun in games as kids. 😄

#

Well, in the 80s and 90s at least. Needed a lot of imagination back then. 😅

feral viper
# vast wasp Classes exist to help make characters different from one another. Sure, they *ca...

Hard disagree on basically every points. Classes themselves are highly reductive gameplay mechanisms imposed on Roleplay because people are used to them.

That's not to say Skyrim was perfect either. It's entire lack of any sort of Background element made it so everyone starts the same, but from that starting is was vastly superior to any Class system in any game.

The problem has always been that Classes prescribe an identity. Even in TES, the way Major and Minor skills functioned meant that of you deviated too much, you stopped progressing. Want to flip the script and go through a major character change? Too bad, those skill choices you made at the very beginning dictate how you have to level. You can't abandon magic, of those are your Major Skills, because your character development ends there.

#

Some of the complaints regarding Skyrim have always been hollow at the best of times. The whole 'You can master Everything' for instance was just as true of Oblivion and Morrowind. Moreso, in fact, as it was explicitly impossible in Skyrim up until the Dragonborn patch.

Classes didn't do anything to address that issue either. Sure, your character STARTED different, but that was effectively the most different your character would ever be. Both Morrowind and Oblivion would, from there, spiral towards the Master of All problem, with far less effort than Skyrim required.

#

Classes simply offer absolutely nothing that a simple Background wouldn't, while Backgrounds also totally lack any of the flawed baggage Classes have.

#

Almost 30 years of RPGs, and I've yet to see a single game that did Classes remotely well.

vast wasp
#

It seems like you've ignored a lot of my points just for the sake of disagreeing since I directly addressed pretty much everything you've now responded with, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

forest surge
feral viper
#

You outright dismissed my complaints as ignorant, and ignored the mechanical flaw in Oblivion and Morrowind's Classes and progression.

#

No, I addressed your points, and I found them lacking. Classes ultimately have very little conceptual value, both in terms of gameplay and worldbuilding (there's no such thing as a Knight. There are dozens of varieties of Knights, and boiling it down to one clunky archetype only makes the world more shallow) and come with all kinds of baggage.

And TES's mechanical approach to them has explicitly been poor, resorting to soft-railroading in level progression and forcing you to level particular skills in order to gain Attribute increases and Resource Adjustments.

vast wasp
#

I didn't call you ignorant.

feral viper
#

Mage accidently kills innocents. Decides magic is dangerous. Swears never to use Magic again.

#

There's nothing ignorant about that for the character, that's a cardinal character trope.

vast wasp
#

You can never use something while still gaining knowledge about that something.

feral viper
#

Sure, but you're imposing a very narrow range of character development just to force feed the Classes relevance. And even then, that character is effectively dead at that point. It has no mechanical value to continue when you can only progress by learning to better use the very thing you've sworn off entirely.

#

Just looking at TES as a primary example, St Veloth is entirely impossible in a Class system. So is Nerevar. Galerion.

#

Unless you implement a way to change your class when you want, but then that defeats the whole point of HAVING a class system in the first place.

#

Ultimately, everything Classes offer, can be accomplished by Backgrounds. And without the limitations and problems Classes impose.

vast wasp
# vast wasp You can never use something while still gaining knowledge about that something.

The training systems, for example. You're learning about a particular skill but not actually using it yourself. One of the ways you could RP this for your character is that, as I said before, they want to better understand it so they can help themselves or others defend against it. Is this a gameplay mechanic? Obviously not, but going entirely off what's in the game kinda feels like a boring way to play RPGs in my opinion.

Someone completely swearing off knowledge of a particular thing is both short-sighted and unwise, no matter how you slice it. If you're playing a low INT character, then sure have them make those decisions, but that type of stuff is usually taken into consideration during character development, or at least it is for me.

feral viper
#

You're using meta gaming perspectives to work around mechanics then, you aren't developing characters naturally and organically.

Unless you're playing a galaxy brained strategist who utterly lacks and emotional reaction to anything and maximises their efficient in all things.

#

Like, you might as well be an alcoholic swearing off booze, but still brewing and selling it because it pays the bills.

Sure, SOME people may do that, but most aren't going to.

#

The core problem remains, however. In the Class system, you HAVE to find these work arounds. You either pull at that thread of reasonable character development, or you just full on reroll and start over.

In Skyrim's system, you CAN if you want. You can express a wider range of potential reactions without the need to play additional mental gymnastics.

forest surge
#

I’ve never been into being limited to one specific class, but I also don’t mind them in games.

feral viper
#

On the grand scheme of things, the 'generic' starting also makes more sense, given the fact that 99% of people in this world won't have any applicable training in any of these skills.

#

Unless they give us Farming as a skill, of course.

#

So even the background thing isn't THAT big a problem, though I'd prefer if they had a more varied approach to it.

#

The ideal system would be to allow you to choose from a 'Commoner' level 1 start, any of a number of class-inspired Backgrounds with say, a level 5 start. And a Custom background allowing you to set your skills and Perks however you sodding please at whatever level that would be.

And then just progress per Skyrim from that point onward.

#

And let's be very clear about something. I USED to be very pro-Class. Back in 2011, I was among those leading the charge on the Forums for their return.

The shift came from digging into how they functioned, and ultimately examining what they represent, what they offer, and what they restrict.

And the only logical conclusion is that we're better off without them..

vast wasp
#

The brewing part is why I specifically mentioned if you're playing a type of character that doesn't, then they don't. It doesn't really change the overall picture here though. This is all about character design and role-playing.

Role-playing is a large part of the genre, and since it's more or less impossible to create a video game that gives you all the same freedom as a tabletop RPG, that's where the imagination part comes in. If you don't have that imagination, then you don't have it and that's okay. Aphantasia is a fairly common thing as far as conditions go. That doesn't really make what I'm saying wrong though, since imagination is like half of the joy of RPGs, specifically tabletop and sandbox RPGs (which is most of what BGS makes).

Skyrim's complete lack of any form of structure actually harms the role-playing aspect because it means that there's no permanence to anything and there's no need to think about anything or do anything a certain way. It destroys all coherence when everyone starts as a jack-of-all-trades at the very beginning. Classes and more restrictive elements (like how you can't lockpick in Fallout if you don't have the skill, for example) add to the experience, they don't take it away.

In Morrowind, your character can't hit the broad side of a barn with a weapon if they don't have any experience with it, which makes perfect sense. Meanwhile in Skyrim, literally anyone can pick up a sword and kill a dragon, it just takes more time since you do less damage.

feral viper
#

I assure you, I do not suffer from Aphantasia. Unfortunately quite the opposite, as I have a rather vivid imagination that leads me down rabbit holes envisioning worlds and places far in excess of what we tend to get in most modern Fantasy. My distaste with ESO's Bosmer can attest to that.

But imagination shouldn't be an excuse for bad game design. And various changes in gameplay need to be accounted for in different ways. You can't just use the same catch all solution to everything.

forest surge
vast wasp
#

It's perfectly fine to not be an enthusiast and want a more streamlined experience when it comes to games. For the most part, I'd absolutely agree with you. Both "casual" and "enthusiast" game mechanics can exist at the same time, it's just that unfortunately, the more enthusiast design elements are being pushed to the side as time goes on in favor of appealing to the widest audience possible, even when both could exist without affecting either.

A perfect example of this is Oblivion. It has the more "casual" elements that would later become Skyrim, and a few of the more "enthusiast" elements that people liked about Morrowind. Obviously it doesn't have everything of either, but the point here is that it's a mix and it works just fine. The leveling system being kinda awful is a different story here, but that's not what I'm talking about.

vast wasp
feral viper
#

Real time interactions, where the enemy can literally dodge in real time, mean you can't rely on dice rolls hits any more.

At the same time, the ability to handle a wider range of interactions and back end variables in a timely manner means that you have new options to work with.

#

If you want a Tabletop game, play a tabletop game. Dragging those limitations into a medium where they aren't present only ties your hands.

feral viper
#

The goal should be a better VIDEO GAME RPG. Not simply a recycled tabletop game with pretty graphics.

#

Which means going back to the concepts that drive those mechanics, rather than clinging to the mechanics themselves. What are they trying to represent, what are they trying to accomplish, and how can you approach that better within the VG medium.

forest surge
feral viper
vast wasp
#

A better video game RPG would give you exactly that. All the freedom and interactivity of a TTRPG but in video game form, with all the modern QoL of all the experience studios have gained over the years. As I said, however, this is impossible with current technology as there's just no way to write for every possible detour a player could make. You could absolutely write for a ton of options (and there are definitely games that do), but there's always going to be something that comes up short, and that's just the way it is.

It's all humans making these things, it's not like we can just pull a rabbit out of our hat.

#

All the magic has already been done, like how id Software made a top-down shooter look first-person.

feral viper
#

It's an entirely different medium and different mediums require fundamentally different approaches to problems.

#

You don't build the same structure out of wood that you do with Steel..

vast wasp
#

Role-playing is all about exactly that. Role-playing. TTRPGs are the perfect example of it since you can do anything you want to do and the only limit is your imagination.

feral viper
#

Role-Playing is a meaningless catch word that doesn't actually explain anything.

#

You roleplay Master Chief in Halo, no one would call that a RPG

vast wasp
#

It's not meaningless at all, it describes the aspect just fine.

#

Yeah I kinda figured you'd pull that one.

That doesn't count as role-playing, nor would anyone seriously sit down and say it either.

#

RPGs are RPGs, they're a very clearly defined set of games.

feral viper
#

And you perfectly encapsulated my point. Explicitly, it IS roleplaying. But it doesn't fit what people perceive as 'Proper' roleplaying for an RPG.

#

Are they? So, are JRPGs RPGs? How about GTA? The Quest for Glory games?

#

Old Tactical RPGs like FF Tactics and Shining Force?

vast wasp
#

Why are you suddenly acting like RPGs aren't RPGs?

forest surge
dim reef
#

What you are describing are CRPGs. It's a subgenre, just like JRPGs, Action RPGs and Strategy RPGs. CRPGs are defined by the things you mentioned. Tabletop style stats and builds, branching dialogue, multiple endings, choices with consequence, etc. It's meant to simulate a D&D experience with a dungeon master.

Does that mean that something like Skyrim is a bad RPG because it went the Open World RPG route? No. Skyrim just offers a different kind of roleplaying. The player freedom, immersion, exploration and world design are leagues above anything you find in FNV or Morrowind. Skyrim wants you to roleplay with the world, not with the dialogue system, and it does a fantastic job in that regard.

Is Witcher 3 a bad RPG? By your own standards it is. No joinable factions, no companions, very little character builds, only a handful of meaningful choices, play a character you didn't design, can't choose stats. Yet it's one of the most highly praised games of the past decade.

What about Dark Souls? It has no dialogue, no choices, very little in the way of factions and branching paths. Yet it immerses you in an amazing, dark world with deep lore and amazing battles regardless.

And why would JRPGs be considered bad RPGs? In Persona 5 you live your characters day to day life, almost as if you're roleplaying as them. In Dragon Quest you roleplay as the hero trying to save the world. Same with FF, Trails, Tales, etc. You're roleplaying as the character, controlling the party, using your skills and customizing the characters gear, and sometimes builds.

What I'm getting at is there are different types of RPGs. If you prefer CRPGs, fine. But don't pretend that every other form of RPG is invalid because of your preference.

vast wasp
#

Namaradus gets it.

feral viper
#

RPGs, ultimately, have jack squat to do with Roleplaying, whether the grognards want to admit it or not.

They are entirely driven by the distinction between Character Skill and Player Skill. RPGs are games in which the outcome of most actions is determined primarily by Character Skill, rather than Player Skill.

That's all.

#

What those actions are, what Character Skill encapsulates, how those outcomes are represented, that all tends to vary wildly from one end of the genre to the other.

#

Roleplay has nothing to do with it. Stats and variables do.

#

There's a reason why pure Roleplay games on the tabletop are usually referred to as Story Games.

vast wasp
# feral viper RPGs, ultimately, have jack squat to do with Roleplaying, whether the grognards ...

If that was the case you wouldn't see an endless amount of cases of player skill trumping any and all character skill. The easiest example of this being Dark Souls, but obviously other games apply just the same. One of the few solid examples of this just being outright wrong are JRPGs since character stats are a major factor. You're not beating the final boss in Final Fantasy or something at level 1 with no other abilities.

feral viper
# vast wasp Namaradus gets it.

He does, though he just made my point for me.

All those things are RPGs. Some of them include next to no Roleplaying at all.

Therefore, Roleplaying cannot be the defining factor, as it is not intrinsic to RPGs..

vast wasp
#

If it wasn't intrinsic to RPGs, then they wouldn't be called RPGs.

feral viper
vast wasp
#

An exception to the rule is not the rule.

feral viper
vast wasp
#

I know, I feel the same way.

feral viper
#

It's 1 am, and I'm done with this for tonight.

hollow pike
#

i'm playing skyrim for the 1st time 😄

vast wasp
#

There was no straw man, you're just stubborn. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

feral viper
#

I miss Glaarg and Turija.

forest surge
#

Um… who are they?

hollow pike
forest surge
#

Doesn’t really matter, but I’d say Khajiit, Cat Race is Best Race.

dim reef
hollow pike
#

ok cool

vast wasp
#

Starting race doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but they do start with different powers and stuff based on the race. The description of these should be listed when you highlight the race.

#

I generally go with Argonians because their lore is the best (I mean the events of the Oblivion crisis alone are what sealed the deal for me) and their vanilla ability is arguably the best "oh no" button.

forest surge
#

Hear me out, Keith David voicing an Argonian.

forest surge
vast wasp
#

That being said, it's literally up to you. Don't feel restricted about how you have to play. You can achieve the same thing for all races, pretty much.

hollow pike
#

I picked argonians because he looked cool

vast wasp
#

Solid choice. Outside of Argonians, Khajiit are cool too, although the Night Eye effect in Skyrim is...unfortunately not very useful at all due to how it works.

hollow pike
#

i haven't been excited to play a game like this in forever.. and it's a 12 year old game

dim reef
#

I still play FF7 to this day and that one is 26 yrs old.

vast wasp
#

I'm really excited for you. I'm also admittedly a bit jealous that you get to experience it for the first time. 😄

#

I've got a thousand+ hours in Skyrim, myself. It's a game I just keep going back to.

forest surge
#

I replayed Dark Souls Remastered back in August, and that is a Remaster of a 12 Year old Game.

vast wasp
#

As for tips, save early, save often. Set autosave internal to 5 minutes and (this is up to you, I do this because it means for more meaningful autosaves) turn off Save on Rest/Wait, but keep Save on Travel on.

hollow pike
#

god this opening scene puts starfield to shame.. holy

hollow pike
#

how do i uh.. go to my inventory

nvm found it

vast wasp
#

The reason I do 5 minutes is pretty much because of how forgetful I am. It doesn't always save me from a mistake, but it sure helps if I forget to save.

Other than that, take your time, explore, and just take the world in and have fun. 😄

#

Press B/O if you're on console. I forget the button for PC.

forest surge
hollow pike
forest surge
dim reef
#

If you're on the PC do yourself a favor and get an Xbox controller you'll be better off.

#

Than trying to remember a bunch of key's to push

hollow pike
#

ya im on xbox so that's good already

vast wasp
#

Oh, and something that I always appreciate knowing is the fact that you can "respec," it just works a tad differently than other games. Not only that, but the respec system also allows for, technically speaking, no level cap.

So don't worry about making any mistakes.

forest surge
#

Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Starfield, Bethesda’s Holy Trinity.

hollow pike
#

👍 sounds good

forest surge
tardy tiger
# feral viper The core problem remains, however. In the Class system, you HAVE to find these w...

I agree that RPGs classes are too restrictive and don’t allow for growth outside of the class like you can’t be a paladin/holy warrior that falls to corruption (like my namesake) or can’t be rogue that decides to stop being one and becomes something else during the story. I think the closest there was that I can remember was baldurs gate 3 with the Oathbreaker paladin while still a holy warrior it has a character changing thing that could fit someone’s character/story

#

Which reminds me of something that I didn’t like about pathfinder wrath of the righteous is that it didn’t really allow for classes changing that didn’t wipe your history so if you want to act like you were a paladin before being corrupted down the evil mythic paths it was not supported by the game

vast wasp
#

Fallen paladins are a thing, so it's a shame they didn't add them because that's...actually a huge facet of being a paladin to begin with.

#

It ties into what was said earlier about how studios just aren't able to develop for every single scenario, as it would just take too much time, unfortunately.

#

I can't put words together right all of the sudden. 🤦‍♀️

#

I guess in video game terms, a paladin falling would...be more or less a game over screen, but...

tardy tiger
#

Oh I can get it it just seemed like a missed opportunity in that game given the mythic paths. Like becoming a Lich or demon

vast wasp
#

Yeah I getchu.

#

Playing Daggerfall has made me want spellcrafting in TES VI even more. 😩

feral viper
#

Not old Spellcrafting. The idea needs to be reexamined, and redone Ina. More interesting way.

#

Some sort of Spellcrafting would be great, but the way it was approached previously was too game-y and spreadsheet-y, with no real integration of character skill and ability.

#

It was just... Pay money, make better spell.

#

Building a Spellcrafting system around the idea of a Spell Matrix, with higher skill level allowing you to alter and stress that matrix more to add more modifiers, would be optimal I think.

#

On the one hand, it allows you to use explicit percentage packets to enhance spells by set amounts, making some general balance easier. On the other, it gives you free reign to add Skyrim-esque behavioural modifications instead of just relying on simple sliders for magnitude and radius.

feral viper
#

This would allow you to cover the old Spellcrafting options, such as more powerful spells and bigger booms, but also allow you to integrate the more complex elements of Skyrim's Magic in an organic way, while also allowing for room to expand the latter.

#

All without turning it into a 'Move all sliders to the right' system.

feral viper
#

In fact, thinking on it... I would probably put Spellcrafting in as an Enchanting activity.

This rounds out Enchanting with 3 specialisations ( and any Skill you can't fit 3 specialisations into doesn't deserve to be a Skill. Looking at you, Acrobatics and Armour skills) that all work on similar in-universe principles. It allows you to integrate more Skill interactions into Spellcrafting and makes refinement of it an investment.

#

Also allows you to eliminate having to have an extra work station, keeping it to the Enchanting/Spellworking station.

snow delta
#

Turn the servers back on. Life is bleak

abstract rapids
#

Tried getting on ESO. Noticed the servers are still down. I thought maintenance was supposed to go until 2pm ET. Any updates?

feral viper
#

This channel is related to the single player games made by Bethesda Game Studios. We don't usually have information about Zenimax Online's ESO on here.

abstract rapids
livid ingot
#

There are some TES:O discords, I don't know if there is an official one though 🤔

abstract rapids
eager remnant
abstract rapids
#

Thank you for the assist!

feral viper
#

Oof... Going over stuff you wrote 3 years ago is... Not a fun experience

left seal
#

On the magic stuff I think having some way to make bigger spells limited would allow them to make them feel more impactful without breaking the game, maybe have them drain max Magicka until you rest, that way fireball can actually do some work on one cast instead of needing 3+ to kill anything, also makes it so lower tier spells have a niche after you get new ones, also switch staves from how they are now to being used to improve spell casting,

feral viper
#

I think, on the whole, how Resources are handled needs to be retooled from the ground up. But I agree in principle.

#

USING magic should be the more limiting of your Action-Resources, with Magicka being slow to regenerate and requiring a dedicated mage to either rely on raw pool-size to win an encounter, or carefully managing their pool to maximise expense.

#

Stamina should regenerate quickly, with penalties for fully expending it (like Starfield's CO2, but longer lasting). But Magicka should be slow to recover or require some sort of active channeling.

Meaning you have to be aware of how much you're burning through, how fast, in any given encounter.

left seal
#

Yeah, like Skyrim feels the best overall for a pure mage but it came at the cost of being able to wipe a room, also in general the fear of knocking loot around and all the times you have to avoid bystanders means in practice you just stick to the apprentice spells or the expert ones when actually fighting making the adept ones kinda niche, and of course we all know how bad the master ones are,

feral viper
#

The Master spells also have a problem in that they require so much windup that they leave you vulnerable... And then lack the real payoff to make it worth it.

#

Like, some enemies can get 2-3 hits in, and then don't even get nuked.

livid ingot
#

Like I've mentioned before, I would like to see any magic system build off the example of Two Worlds Two. Then you could make crafting new spells a thing people do intuitively while playing the game

left seal
feral viper
#

I wasn't enormously enamoured with magic on Two Worlds Two, really.

#

Though I'll admit, I don't think I've ever actually played a game that I thought had a GOOD magic system.

#

It's one of those often used gameplay elements that I just don't think anyone has really nailed yet.

livid ingot
#

The way I see it, you'd seek out tomes that might give you new spells, and then use the 'handed' system to experiment. And maybe if you perform a combo enough times, you can make it into a spell that you can will become stronger and maybe gain additional effects as your skills increase.

#

I'd also draw from mods Experimental Magic (iirc?) where you'd be able to cast stronger spells than your skill might otherwise allow, with higher risks of negative effects to your own person

feral viper
#

I'm not a fan of Experimenting Spells and Spell Failure, myself. It's always seemed like a clunky, convoluted way to try and cram in some Skill interactions or penalise certain characters.

#

The latter more a D&D issue, admittedly.

#

Similar to how to-hit chance just drags on gameplay.

livid ingot
#

So an example would be equipping a touch fire spell in your left hand, and a warding spell in your right. Then casting both spells together would result in a fire shield spell, which after a few casts you could craft into a single spell that you can one-hand. As you build Destruction and Restoration it might become a sphere that surrounds you. Or, you could then combine it with another spell, like Reflect Magic, to make a shield that bounces fire spells back at the caster.
Basically, every spell school would have a handful of spell effects from which incredible complexity can be achieved.

#

And you do it all through playing the game and casting magic. Without any menus to make it feel "spread-sheety"

feral viper
#

That would require a very structured magic system, while I think I'm more of the mind of... A very unstructured one

#

You get Parts, and parts are assembled to make Spells. The basic list is premade Spells to cover the basics, but beyond that... Let players have at it..

Want to make a spell that allows you to shoot 3 richocheting fire beams? You can do that. Want to make a Mortar anti-grav spell you can lob behind cover? You can do that.

livid ingot
#

I just like using it as a base to build off of

livid ingot
#

Then instead of spells, maybe you could equip words. So instead of 10 hotkeyed spells you could have functionally a lot more with the same number of hotkeys, if you combine them in different ways.

feral viper
#

Curse these earlier sunsets! I lost my painting window after work..

#

But anyway, yeah. I have a lot of notes and such to sort through and get back on track, and will get to Magic again eventually ... But I'll definitely be keeping those ideas in mind.

vast wasp
# left seal Yeah, like Skyrim feels the best overall for a pure mage but it came at the cost...

Skyrim absolutely didn't feel the best for being a pure mage, and to be frank, I'm not sure how one could even hold that opinion since the magic system is so woefully limited. You have so few options to begin with, not to mention so many removed spell effects, that I just couldn't even get through the game because I was so bored of casting the same spell over and over with no variation or ability to change it or upgrade it or anything. I always play as a caster of some sort in games, but I just couldn't for Skyrim.

Morrowind objectively has the best magic system in the franchise. Everything worked, you could make whatever you wanted, all the effects you could ever want were there, and you could even use the spells to interact with meta game elements, such as using drain skill spells to drop training costs, which was awesome. There was just an endless amount of freedom to the magic system, and that's what I hope comes back, at least in part, in TES VI.

This is one of those things where I'm not even sure how or why anyone would disagree. It's pure bonus.

#

All the pre-made spells are there (and they work fine) so that makes the casual audience happy, then spellcrafting busts open the mechanic entirely for the enthusiasts. It's perfect.

#

"Balance" really isn't part of the equation because in some way, magic has always been broken in TES (Daggerfall's spell scaling is wild, Morrowind's spells, potions, and enchanting were all comically broken, Oblivion's enchantments were wild, and to a much lesser extent, Skyrim's funky potions), and that's what makes it fun. Overbalancing a system just leads to it not being as fun, and player freedom and fun are paramount to the experience of these types of games.

feral viper
#

Morrowind's Magic was... Eh. At least it had some minor commitment to the action, but it still allowed you to actively equip non-mage weapons to supplement your activity with no need to fully commit. That meant all kinds of potential nonsense.

#

Oblivion's was hands down the worst, requiring absolutely no commitment to Magic and using it barely as a sidearm.

#

Skyrim at least required a hard commitment to using Magic. You actively equip a Spell to a hand, the same as a Weapon or Shield.

vast wasp
#

Which didn't really make it any better or worse since the spells were still mediocre.

feral viper
#

I disagree. Not about the spells, but that it did make it better

#

Skyrim's spell selection was undeniably rubbish

#

But the way it approached Magic, Casting, Mages and the more underlying mechanical elements of it were an improvement. They simply never did enough with those improvements to make it really feel meaningful.

wooden wigeon
#

hello! i might as well hang out here while i wait to get my fallout to work x3 what are y'all talking about?

vast wasp
#

Elder Scrolls, since this is the Elder Scrolls chat, not the Fallout one. 😄

feral viper
#

Morrowind absolutely did far more in an inferior system, at least creating the feeling of a deep and meaningful Magic System. Skyrim's was functionally better in every way, but lacked enough meat to it to make it anything but a whimper.

wooden wigeon
#

seems a little messed up, but i loved oblivion and skyrim growing up. i got my fingers as deep into the lore as it could go

feral viper
#

That way, madness lies.

wooden wigeon
#

madness i have found :)

#

Digging through Book after book.. Watching lore essays, playing through the games over and over to leave no stone unturned..

feral viper
#

Read the Greg Keyes novels?

wooden wigeon
#

If I had a rough guestimate, before I got steam, I clocked in about 200 hours on both over 2 years, then on steam, for Skyrim proper (Including Special Edition), 389hrs

feral viper
#

Sounds about right.

wooden wigeon
feral viper
#

But, I'm not pushing myself to 1 am again tonight, so Imma hit the hay. Lovely meeting you!

wooden wigeon
#

Nice meeting you too! Goodnight!

#

For my favorite ES Magic system, I'd have to go with Daggerfall's. I'm a sucker for silliness, and the absurdity of those spells got me.

vast wasp
#

Definitely a great magic system for sure. Super satisfying to use. I just wish the functionality was a little better, as some things just don't work (single-target ranged spells, for example).

wooden wigeon
#

Agreed

#

Then again, that game is really old, and developed by a rather small team, so I'd argue that, for the time and limitations, it's majorly impressive

vast wasp
#

Oh big facts, I'd absolutely agree. The fact that Daggerfall exists how it does at all is just insane. A super, super impressive job for 1996.

wooden wigeon
#

Agreed!

tardy tiger
left seal
#

Yeah to be clear I meant destruction when I said it felt better, illusion is trash because dragons are immune, restoration is trash cuz turn is worthless wards suck and combat was balanced around using potions from the menu, so real time healing is usually terrible, alteration has some ok utility but needed water walking, otherwise it's just good for passive perks and and is super easy to power level for perk points,

vast wasp
#

Turn Undead pretty much has no use outside of AD&D since, for reasons I can't figure out, the instant death to undead part never seems to be a thing in any game outside of AD&D rulesets. Because of this, it almost always becomes a fear spell or some type of debuff, just with an undead flavor, which doesn't usually come out to be very helpful. Disappointing, you're right, since it could be a really cool spell, especially considering the sheer amount of undead in Skyrim.

#

On the whole, whoever had control over the Skyrim project was very clearly a huge fan of being a nightblade. Sneaking, sneak attacks, illusion magic, they're all so robust to the point where it can make other elements of the game feel less useful.

My longest-lasting character reached level 91 after about 250 hours or so, and it was an assassin character using illusion and dual-wield daggers while sneaking and sword-and-board in open combat. I much preferred the daggers since blocking in Skyrim feels icky, but it was genuinely the most fun I've had on the game for any character design. Everything about how the game works points towards that being the "intended" playstyle. Intended by who, I don't know, but whoever the project manager or the producer was clearly loved sneaky characters.

#

My grammar sucks today.

wooden wigeon
vast wasp
#

You're right, I totally forgot about 3.5. Good catch. 😄

wooden wigeon
#

In 3.5 Turn Undead was a great tool for countering undead at lower levels, and then once you hit like level 9 it was awesome for Divine Metamagic

#

I love 3.5e, I think arguably it's mechanically the best dnd

#

Although subjectively it comes down to what you have fun playing 🙂

vast wasp
#

For sure. I unfortunately don't have any experience with 3.5 (outside of limited knowledge of the basics), just what friends have told me, and they agree that it's pretty much the gold standard of D&D. Most of my experience is AD&D and...yeah that's pretty much it. XD

wooden wigeon
#

Lol. I love AD&D But a lot of stuff is just there to screw you over xD 3.5 gives a lot of player agency and a lot of mechanics to mess around with

vast wasp
#

Absolutely. XD

There's a lot of goofy mechanics from AD&D that I'm glad don't exist no more, but it's just so charming in other ways.

wooden wigeon
#

And there's only one way to break dnd to being unplayable, which is wishing for omnipotence

#

But I'm glad I found another DnD player :D

vast wasp
#

Admittedly, I've only played the CRPGs, I've never actually played D&D proper, but one of these days I hope to. I love D&D.

#

I'm not a very social person, ironically. The thought of going places and starting campaigns is exhausting. 💀

Part of why RPGs are my favorite genre. You get to live in these worlds and just do whatever. Wonder what world TES VI is gunna give us. 🤔

feral viper
vast wasp
#

Yeah well I'm trying not to invoke the ire of the staff, but I agree with you.

feral viper
#

There's been a general aversion to Fantasy since Morrowind, and an over reliance of familiar tropes in worldbuilding.

#

Skyrim was an improvement over Oblivion, yes, but it was still very much a Meme-Driven world. Not one lovingly crafted by passionate worldbuilding.

#

Of course, this isn't a uniquely Bethesda problem. God Of War is another prime example of a franchise which is built on the lowest common denominator public perception of something, rather than actually representing that thing.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Which is fine. I think in that regard they have in fact improved.

#

Though not necessarily in the refinement of that improvement.

forest surge
#

The one exception being Starfield because it’s a new game so they pretty much had to build a new world.

forest surge
vast wasp
feral viper
#

Well, while Starfield's questlines and stories are the best we've seen from them in decades ... I still have beef with some of the worldbuilding there.

forest surge
feral viper
feral viper
forest surge
vast wasp
#

Don't get me wrong, I consider my 1000+ hours (and getting all the achievements) time well spent, but...yeah I sure wish the fantasy aspect was better.

forest surge
#

Honestly I don’t expect High Fantasy elements to play a Part unless it’s Elves.

feral viper
#

It's inherently High Fantasy, due to the fact it's a fictionalized world.

forest surge
#

The Human’s never felt like the ones who would dive as deeply or have the more weird creatures

feral viper
#

They just need to lean into it. Because as it is, the Human cultures aren't even really distinct by HUMAN cultures.

#

Which is a real shame, because... Well, all we've gotten is basically various periods in north-central Medieval Europe.

vast wasp
#

Yeah the different man races started feeling a bit...heh...on the nose, especially for Skyrim.

feral viper
#

The Imperials aren't even really Roman.

forest surge
#

Elder Scrolls Leaning more into Fantasy in terms of Magic has also annoyed some people believe it or not.

vast wasp
#

Of course it has, because people who just wanna swing a sword around get offended by magic. It's why the magic system in Elden Ring was completely ruined.

#

These players don't wanna take 5 minutes to understand something because it goes beyond "huh huh Grog whack beast with sword."

forest surge
#

So I think it’s natural for there to be more Fantasy Elements in one province compared to another.

vast wasp
#

It even shows up in gameplay where the dominant race in Skyrim not only hates magic, but hates the races who they attribute to it. 💀

forest surge
vast wasp
#

I like the added lore but hate the gameplay. It's not restricted to ESO either, as virtually all MMOs have the same shortcomings when it comes to gameplay.

#

Black Desert comes close to feeling like a single-player experience, but then you have the problem that it demands your entire life or you get no loot.

forest surge
#

Anyway I think the big point to consider is that Bethesda probably see’s the Human Races as not the ones we will see the most Fantasy Elements from in General, at least compared to the other Races of Tamriel.

feral viper
#

And I think they need to change that outlook.

forest surge
#

Nords and Redguards don’t tend to like Magic, Imperials and Bretons tend to be more fine with it.

feral viper
#

A single human race in Tamriel could easily accommodate more variety and depth than they've put into the entire franchise in the last 20 years.

vast wasp
# feral viper And I think they need to change that outlook.

It genuinely blows my mind that nobody copies the Morrowind formula, not even BGS themselves.

They created what is quite frankly one of the top 5 fantasy worlds of all time, maybe even top 3 (Baldur's Gate 1/2, Planescape: Torment, and Morrowind, can't think of anything else), and then just didn't use all that awesome again.

wooden wigeon
#

Well I missed a bit, but I don't want to comment because I love Skyrim and Oblivion to death

forest surge
#

I think it’s clear they just don’t wanna give Human’s the same treatment

#

Like if it was any other non Human Race they would probably get the more added love

wooden wigeon
#

I very much have heavy bias, just because I've played TES 1-3 less than 4 and 5

vast wasp
wooden wigeon
#

I think I'm content with Skyrim because it was what I wanted, I found people playing it on YouTube and thought of how fun it is, and when I got it it was everything I want and then some

forest surge
#

Magic will be there but probably not in the same capacity as the Dark Elves and High Elves

#

Although it’s strange that every Non Human Race in the series pretty much have lots of depth and lore. XD

wooden wigeon
#

I really do hope tes 6 is better than 76. I can't tell you how sad and disappointed I was when I finally played it. I believed in it even past all the release mess ups, and when I finally played it, it was soul crushing at how glitchy it was, and empty

wooden wigeon
forest surge
wooden wigeon
#

Yeah that's fair

forest surge
#

And has anybody noticed that besides me? That Non Human Races have much more to them?

wooden wigeon
#

That is weird. I really hope the Bretons get a county system

#

I'd love to see a system where counts fought each other for land or money

forest surge
#

@feral viper @vast wasp You both noticed it to right?

feral viper
#

I have. And Im not fond of it

#

Though, to be transparent, i am an Anthropologist by education. So there isn't a fictional culture that really meets what I would call a high standard.

vast wasp
#

That being said, I think they're all just fine as a whole, but could do with some expanding.

#

Personally, the Argonians take my vote for the most interesting race, and I wish a TES game would take place in Black Marsh. I mentioned their involvement in the Oblivion Crisis a while back, and it's true that it's a major reason why I'm so excited about the race. The fact that they pushed the Daedra back on their own and even caused a retreat is just nuts. I love it.

feral viper
#

I think that, from a practical standpoint, it's a lot easier to Trope human looking peoples than it is to do so with non-humans. At least without seeking really insensitive.

#

If the Argonians, for instance, were JUST Native American in inspiration, then they come off as a very... Problematic depiction of them. So you are obligated to put more work in, to prevent those associations.

feral viper
#

Mer-glim's story arc actually reflects Attrebus' in that regard. Shedding his naivete through trauma and learning to cope with that while working to better others. Starting as a very Pro-Party Argonian, being betrayed by that party because of the friends he keeps, then having to rebuild relationships and realising that those relationships are what are important.

tardy tiger
#

It's also like well everyone tried to fight back the level of success is unknown. And we hear it from a long after so we don't even know if there was a plan to just cut up the Hists forces. For all we know the Deadlands just got a ton new Argonain flesh to use for fleshsculpting.

feral viper
#

We do know, also from The Infernal City, that the Hist are more than capable of just... Taking over their Argonian servants. It's entirely possible that when they say 'Argonians poured in'... It's literal. Just a mob of mind controlled thrashing lizard folk, biting teeth and flailing claws. Throwing young and old, make and female, warrior and farmer into the churning meat grinder with no concern for THEIR safety.

#

Just disposable chaff used by the Hist to protect themselves.

#

All Praise Landru and whatnot.

#

But more generally... There are some basic tends which I've grown more and more disillusioned with in terms of cultural definition.

#

For one, I've grown to absolutely detest Races. They started as a gross oversimplification of human ethnogroups tinged with centuries of racist prejudice, and they've grown into nothing but lazy architypes that only serve to reinforce shallow tropes.

#

Either go full Species and commit or drop the idea entirely and just use phenotypical variation.

#

Not that most settings do Species well either (the number of moni-cultured alien species in Sci-Fi is... Well, it would be funny if it weren't so depressingly sad) but you're at least commiting to a distinct biological division rather than an entirely fabricated social one wearing a Science-Mask.

#

Even ethnogroups need variation, though. Look at the Polynesian peoples. There are, extant, more than 50 distinct cultures across the Polynesian islands. Each with their own traditions, mythologies and identity. Some are radically pacifist, others very war like.

#

And that's after over a century of cultural deviation by modernisation.

forest surge
forest surge
#

I’ve always been fine with some races taking after an IRL type of Culture/Lifestyle as long as they explored into what made them different, The Nords actually use Egyptian like Burying methods for one.

feral viper
#

Given the pretty universally American cultures of Starfield, I think it's more the latter.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Given when the Exodus happens, I'd expect China or India, maybe Brazil, to have that honour.

#

But somehow America clings in as the cultural identity of all of humanity for another 200 odd years.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Have not, though have heard about it.

#

Overall point though, too few influences spread across too many cultures in TES.

forest surge
feral viper
#

I'll have to check it out.

#

As a general rule, though. If you're going to give a region a distinct art set, you should put in the work to define a distinct culture.

#

Skyrim, for instance, has different holds with different art sets... But they're all just 'Nord'

forest surge
worn yacht
feral viper
#

It's not the first time he's left the company though. Not is change necessarily a bad thing.

#

People just like to be doom sayers and bemoan change without actually knowing what it will do.

#

Wish him the best in further endeavors, but we need to see what the long term effects are before passing judgement.

feral viper
#

With that in mind, the Changing of the Guard can also signify new, good things. Bringing in or elevator f people who BECAME passionate about something, who were introduced to it from the bottom up, can breathe new life and dynamic creativity into a long running project.

#

So, while Bethesda has lost some of the Old Guard, that doesn't mean there's reason to be afraid of the future. Star Wars took years to find it's footing again, needing to shed the old guard and bring on passionate fans, in order to enter it's Renaissance.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Clearly not hard enough, given the end result.

#

But, I've never actually seen any solid evidence of that claim.

#

It seems to have been more of a whole team effort there.e

spare anchor
forest surge
feral viper
#

My overall point is, departures, no matter of whom, don't instantly spell doom

#

Change is, inherently, neither good nor bad. It's the results of change that determine its value..

#

Considering my general ambivalence regarding the product of BGS's takes on TES in the last two decades, and the very clear aging design philosophies made evident by Starfield... I maintain hope that this change will be positive.

#

Not to belittle the contributions of the outgoing parties, of course. We wouldn't even be here today, were it not for them. But clinging to the old guard isn't always for the best.

nimble pond
#

Imo, morrowind and skyrim both had their own identity. It was oblivion, despite some of the good parts in it, that felt like a generic medieval rpg.

feral viper
#

Skyrim was definitely an improvement over Oblivion, yeah. Even if I think it was still far short of the mark.

nimble pond
#

Could it have been a tad better on the subject? Sure. But it was pretty good. Much better than oblivion for sure.

nimble pond
wide garnet
feral viper
#

Anyway. Until demonstrated otherwise, I choose to operate as normal, and pay no mind to staffing changes at BGS. I wish the outgoing the best, but their departure will not change my stance on the games.

twin sentinel
#

not really comfortable talking about this here in detail, but comments from a certain other past dev about Kuhlmann's departure don't leave me optimistic for TES6.

feral viper
#

I am aware of the comments you are referring to. And honestly? I give them about as much weight as Sapkowski's comments about the Witcher games.

forest surge
#

Ultimately I think a change was inevitable considering how long these people worked in Bethesda, if they learned from those who came before and are passionate about the series they are working on, I have nothing to be concerned about.

feral viper
#

Exactly. Unironically, Lucas stepping back and handing over the reigns of Star Wars to others was the best thing to happen to it. Same with Star Trek.

#

Change is not automatically a bad sign. And anyone who says otherwise, or clings to celebrity worship of particular contributors, is just a grognard.

twin sentinel
#

I'd rather trust the people involved with the development, whose work I know I enjoy, over someone else's wishful thinking.

feral viper
#

And I'd rather wishful thinking than the chronic disappointment of the last two decades

#

That's not fair, Fallout and Starfield have been good. But Bethesda's TES showings have not been inspiring. Tolerable, in the case of Skyrim, but not inspiring.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Indeed. ESO has shown just how poor the mainline showings have been, doing more with each province, while having to split their focus, than BGS has while focusing on one at a time.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Even discounting the fact I don't LIKE some of those developments, it's impossible to acknowledge the fact that it's not blown Bethesda's efforts out of the water in terms of worldbuilding, cultures and characters.

#

Mechanics are a whole other discussion of course.

forest surge
#

Even people who say they aren’t fans of it’s gameplay love it’s lore

feral viper
#

Yeah. Well... Most. There are still a few

forest surge
feral viper
#

Even the aforementioned doom-sayer actively praised a lot of ESO's worldbuilding.

twin sentinel
feral viper
#

If we're lucky, BGS will bring over some of ESOs writers.

forest surge
# twin sentinel such as?

Oh man where do I start… Reachmen Lore, Argonian Lore, Wood Elf Lore, Orc Lore, Khajiit Lore, High Elf Lore, More Dark Elf Lore

twin sentinel
#

far as I can tell, ESO didn't add much by itself, just gave us the lukewarm interpretation of what we knew before but hadn't seen ingame yet

feral viper
# twin sentinel such as?

The entire Duskfall Civilisation for Argonians, the amazing Khajiiti stuff, Doomcraig and more tower lore than we've ever had in mainline games, culinary stuff for days, the Ash'abah

twin sentinel
#

Murkmire was indeed pretty good, and I liked that one Azurah quest in Elsweyr

#

but then on the other hand they muck up Rimmen lore, so it was always a give and take

forest surge
#

Muck up Rimmen Lore how?

feral viper
#

People complain about the Hall of the Colossus being a thing before Numidium

twin sentinel
#

should've never been a Khajiiti kingdom at the time

twin sentinel
feral viper
#

Exactly. People complain about it anyway

forest surge
twin sentinel
#

Elsweyr's been too long ago, so I don't quite recall the details

forest surge
#

Reading older Lore before ESO it stated when Rimmen became Independent or so, and it’s clearly after ESO.

feral viper
#

I'll freely and rather vigorouslt admit there's stuff in ESO that I hate. Valenwood, the Druids, etc.

But it's undeniable that it's the biggest lore contributor since at least Morrowind. Possibly Redguard.

forest surge
feral viper
twin sentinel
forest surge
feral viper
twin sentinel
forest surge
feral viper
#

That was centuries later, if memory serves.

twin sentinel
twin sentinel
#

but whatever, Necrom was alright. besides turning Indoril lands into Telvanni holdings and all that ...

feral viper
#

The sort of system Morrowind uses would likely regularly see a lot of holdings switch hands over generations.

twin sentinel
#

and I'm not a huge fan of adding ||more Daedric Princes||, but we'll see.

forest surge
feral viper
twin sentinel
#

you could, and you should.

feral viper
#

The Akaviri in general seem to be a Blindspot for TES

forest surge
feral viper
#

Probably because no one wants to deal with the real world consequences of the decision to make them Human

twin sentinel
#

that's fine tbh. keep them a mystery just like the Dwarves

twin sentinel
forest surge
feral viper
twin sentinel
#

it's certainly a bigger deal than adding a town nobody mentions in the future.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Something later supported by Fa-Nuit-Hen

twin sentinel
#

when did Molag say that

#

iirc he only says "there are worse masters than I"

forest surge
feral viper
#

Which, him being the worst (and rather confidently knowing it) is a pretty clear indication that there's darker and more problematic out there.

#

Unless he was specifically referring to Meridia of course.

#

Which is another big addition. Holy hek, did they pull the 'Good Guy's mask off that monster.

twin sentinel
forest surge
twin sentinel
#

not sure what to expect from Skingrad next year. I love the Gold Coast, but Skingrad wasn't that interesting in Oblivion either.

forest surge
#

I like to be surprised

twin sentinel
#

it would be a great opportunity to make Colovia more interesting and unique, but I'm not sure they'll take it

#

well, it's only what I've heard, could be wrong.

#

there are always clues and they don't always pan out.

#

but I've wanted Colovia for a long time so I hope it's that

feral viper
#

Unfortunately, they do sorta have to work within the damage done by Oblivion.

#

They can't change Cyrodiil TOO much, or freak out the people who actually like that schlock

forest surge
#

Which doesn’t help because Nibenese and Colovian’s are two cultures under the Imperial Umbrella but we don’t know what exactly helps to make them different

twin sentinel
#

meh. it's 800 years in the past, that's enough room to be a bit different

feral viper
twin sentinel
#

understanding and liking are also 2 different things

feral viper
#

Like, Nord Culture has somehow remained almost unchanged for 5000 years? Come on

twin sentinel
#

you can find reasons for Nords being imperialized in Skyrim, but it's not really interesting.

feral viper
#

The Nords shouldn't even remember the Myths of the Return, let alone build their martial hero worship around that.

twin sentinel
#

well, then everyone should be an Imperial after the 3rd era.

feral viper
#

Nah, that's not how it works either.

forest surge
forest surge
feral viper
#

Meanwhile, 1000 years after they were built, we were mistaking the Pyramids for Granaries.

twin sentinel
#

because we weren't egyptians.

feral viper
#

And these schmucks can remember the names of ships their ancestors hundreds of generations earlier sailed on.

#

Fantasy settings in general do not understand how cultural drift, or time work.

#

Which is fine, suspension of disbelief and all that. But you can't have it both ways.

#

Pick a lane, and stay in it. It's either Medieval Stasis, or it's Culturally Dynamic. You can't just flip flop when you want to.

#

Now, if they want to just retcon the Medieval Stasis? Id be fine with that. Personally I think Medieval Stasis is boring. But you can't waffle on it.

#

Thats how you get whiplash, like Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion.

#

But, to swing back to the point... Whether or not I like some of the inclusions, and whether or not I'd like other things to be done, doesn't change the fact that ESO has undeniably added more to the lore than Bethesda themselves have in 20 years.

#

Whereas BGS has... Mostly taken things AWAY, instead of adding them.

uncut heart
feral viper
uncut heart
feral viper
#

I am an Anthropologist. My focus was in Archaeology. I am well aware of what my field entails.

These are not the same things.

#

The Epic of Gilgamesh did not survive through retelling. We found fragments of it, and REVIVED it.

uncut heart
#

Also it’s a video game my guy not an ultra realistic simulation of Human cultures

feral viper
#

The Nords, somehow, through poor-writing-magic, actively preserved these stories, somehow accurately.

#

Hell, I remember reading about how the invention of Writing broke down the skald traditions of Atmora by allowing people to change their stories, rather than the codified verbatim retellings of the Skald... And being like 'Lol what? That's not how oral traditions work'

uncut heart
#

It makes sense they wrote down their stories and preserved them

feral viper
#

But, in general, I let it go because I accept the fantasy. The problem is, when that fantasy actively contradicts it's self.

uncut heart
#

What contradictions are you taking about specifically?

feral viper
#

Or when the explanations given don't actually match up with the evidence given. (Saarthal, the whole Falmer situation)

uncut heart
#

A truly accurate fantasy world would have such contradictions between the evidence and the common explanation considering that this happens all the time IRL

feral viper
#

Yes, but you can't have it both ways. Again, you can't have their myths being accurate, while at the same time inaccurate specifically because you want them to be. Pick a lane.

#

BGS does not. They swerve from lane to lane almost constantly, like a dangerous late night driver.

uncut heart
#

Who says that their myths are 100% accurate though

feral viper
#

And the only times it remains unclear, is for events that we explicitly avoid being able to see

uncut heart
feral viper
#

Like, the Heroes at Throat of the World? Ok, we have a primary witness who can tell us what happened in Paarthurnax. So the mostly accurate records leading to High Hrothgar are reasonable.

But the 500 Companions? We get to interact with no less than 3 of them, which show that... Well, yeah, it was just a bit more than 500 ubermensch who somehow managed to crush an entire nation

uncut heart
feral viper
#

Somehow the Druids have maintained their history since the dawn of their order. But the Altmer records of their greatest explorer amount to one faded tapestry.

uncut heart
#

And it’s likely he wasn’t considering he doesn’t know what shout was used to defeat Alduin

feral viper
uncut heart
feral viper
#

No, they do not. NO culture has even remotely accurate records going back more than 1000 years. And from there and further back, the records get even less reliable.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

They need to be pieced together through the study of surviving contemporary materials rather than propagated records.

#

Even Sandskrit Hindu records claiming to go back 5000 years are insanely easy to pick apart. And oral traditions collapse in reliability much faster than written ones, few providing reliable information outside of 500 years.

uncut heart
#

I think you need to look at this from the perspective that many of the myths and stories told are not 100% accurate in TES lore instead of where you currently are looking at it from what everyone says is the truth

feral viper
#

They're not. Or they are. The underpinning problem is that BGS doesn't actually know. Because they aren't actually engaging in Mythopoeia, they throwing things at the wall and then occasionally going back and pulling it off.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

So they randomly pick which are entirely accurate, and which are mythicaly distorted, based on whim. And personal agendas on the part of the writers, but I won't pull THAT string too hard.

uncut heart
forest surge
feral viper
#

Let's just say, it's rather telling that only Atheist civilisation in Tamriel, turned out to be Amoral mad scientists who tortured refugees?

Yeah, no agenda being pushed there.

uncut heart
uncut heart
feral viper
#

Deliberately? Probably not.

#

Like I said, I'm not going to pull that strong too hard, because this is not the place for those conversations.

uncut heart
#

I doubt BGS has an agenda to make everyone religious considering they have numerous openly atheist/agnostic lead devs

#

Every video game company does

forest surge
uncut heart
feral viper
uncut heart
#

But overall it is not like this

uncut heart
feral viper
#

Saarthal for instance. I doubt anyone at Bethesda has actually sat down and recorded the factual series of events. So every time someone references it, they don't have that fact to work around.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

So people keep referencing it, and expanding on it, it opens up more and more cracks in the combined picture.

feral viper
uncut heart
#

The part that arguably makes the most sense being ambiguous

forest surge
#

Or it could be the truth

#

We don’t know ultimately

feral viper
uncut heart
#

The truth behind who attacked first and why is completely lost to history purposely

feral viper
#

They actively worship genocidal child murderers, and their history is built on their theological duty to exterminate Elves.

uncut heart
#

I think this guy just hates the Nords

#

And that’s the extent of it

wide garnet
# uncut heart What about Saarthal are you referencing

From what I was able to gain from the Mages’ Questline, ||the Nords of Sarthaal found the Eye of Magnus, tried to tamper with it, and the Snow Elves tried to stop the tampering. Things got out of hand for both sides, ||and Sarthaal ended up in ruins.

uncut heart
feral viper
uncut heart
#

But then again the true story will never be known

wide garnet
feral viper
#

But the issue in how it's related is... Why would the Nords, who actively embrace and praise conquest and slaughtering heroes, need to change the narrative to play the victim?

Why do they remember so many details about the Return, but not the sack, despite Ysgramor's direct involvement in both?

Why do the Nords totally forget the Eye, to the point where the only mention of it isn't even from Mythic sources? Especially given the Nords embracing of so many other Elven things (showing their Mongolian elements and willingness to embrace things from conquered territories that were useful to them).

How the hell does Gauldurson fit into it?

And that's just big stuff that shows that the whole Eye angle was really just slapped on top of an already established event with little regard for the deeper questions it caused.

#

And that's without even getting into Gelebor.

#

Why? Because BGS doesn't actually know who struck first. They're writing Myths from the wrong side.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

But, that's neither here nor there. Again, the integrity of extraordinarily longterm myths remaining largely accurate isn't an issue. Flip flopping on the integrity of myths as needed for the narrative is.

feral viper
uncut heart
#

I also don’t understand why BGS needs to give us the truth behind what happened. There is nothing saying that they haven’t created one.

wide garnet
uncut heart
#

BGS could have canon behind what happened and that they want it to be ambiguous for storytelling reasons

wide garnet
#

As to why the Nords played the victim, it was most likely an attempt at “us vs. them propaganda”.

feral viper
#

They didn't fabricate a grievance with the Dunmer to justify invading them. They simply invade the 'Demons' to the east. They didn't need an excuse to attack the Direnni, they just attacked the Elves. They aren't even trying to free slaves at that point they found out about them WHILE invading the Elves. They didn't give two craps about the Alessia Slaves, they simply hated the Elves.

#

The Elven God is basically the version of the devil, actively killing their chosen god at the creation of the world. Hating Elves is intrinsic to the Nord mythos.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

If the Nords had become ashamed of what they did? Ok, I could understand the narrative. But they still actively worship a man whose axe was so steeped in Elven blood, or actively kills Elves better.

uncut heart
#

Why do you expect for the player to be given the entire truth behind what happened though?

feral viper
nocturne stone
#

Let's not stray into real-world politics please.

feral viper
#

Unless you pull an Alduin's Wall, which is explicitly derived from a Prophecy.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

It's not. The ambiguity of Saarthal, contrasted against the accuracy of the Return, is.

uncut heart
#

But how do we know how accurate the stories of the return are?

feral viper
#

Especially when dealing with events that occur within 10 odd years of eachother.

#

Based on the literal members of the Companions we have spoken to? Unreasonably.

uncut heart
wide garnet
feral viper
#

Alas, TES decided to embrace the whole Afterlife thing, and we can actively talk to some people millennia dead.

uncut heart
feral viper
#

Oh, I know. And I find the notion tacky and causes too many problems.

#

At least on D&D, souls are eventually absorbed by their Afterlives and serve as fuel for the Outer Planes.

#

But especially with TES... Literally having Afterlives undermines the philosophical crisis and identity of the world, undermining the significance of Mortality, and leaning fully into the 'Mild inconvenience' of life dynamic in an eternal system than I think they intent.

#

The whole Altmeri worldview? Uselessly wrong now. They get to get immortal spirits again after only a short stay. All of creation and Lorkhan's scheme is less of a soul crushing trap than Retail Work, apparently.

#

Leaving it ambiguous? Well, now you're justifying the ideological divisions and potential conflict between them. You're explaining why the Daedra are attractive prospects for people.

#

Instead, having Afterlives be REAL, and available to everyone and even worse, so readily accessible... Just undermines the uncertainty that facilitates this. Suddenly, Lorkhan's death means nothing, and 60 years in the Arena is a minor annoyance.

#

Just hit all those beats, and lose all the gravitas.

forest surge
#

I mean it was kind of inevitable I feel considering if Daedra can take your soul that would imply there is more beyond death.

feral viper
#

Sure, but it's handling was... Eh

#

The whole Recycling thing would have worked sooooo much better.

#

Having mortal souls stuck in a groundhog day of birth, life and death, with no 'Paradise' at the end, at least gives justification for the Daedra Cults and animosity of the Yokudan and Altmeri traditions.

#

Instead, the Altmer and Yokudans are just wrong. There is no trap, and they can quite easily escape by simply doing something that mentioning gets you demonitised on YouTube.

#

Could still be fixed, by making the 'Afterlives' little more than Holding Pens until a reset, but I digress...

#

But, worldbuilding and story stuff is... Far more subjective and thus far more open to legitimate differences of opinion. It's also far less important, I think.

#

People can enjoy a GAME even if the world sucks. Look at Oblivion.

But the best story won't save a poorly made game.

#

So the more productive avenue for conversation, IMO, is mechanical and gameplay related. Especially given that I'm white sure we'll all find something to be disappointed with about TES6s story and world when it comes out.

feral viper
#

With that in mind. I actually have to rescind all my complaints about Bethesda's Stealth. The stealth missions in Starfield are some of the most tense, enjoyable experiences I've had in a game in a decade.

#

Just... Use that. No changes. It's great.

forest surge
#

Where literally nobody can find you

forest surge
#

The 5 Companions are the Justice League of Tamriel

#

The Vestige, Lyris Titanborn, Sai Sahan, Abnur Tharn, RIP Varen.

forest surge
tardy tiger
tardy tiger
oak valley
#

Guys when is elder Scrolls castle coming out ? Also is it available for pre-order ?

vast wasp
#

No release date has been given, nor does there appear to be a pre-order.

oak valley
#

Why some people are able to play it ? Is it because there is a closed beta ?

vast wasp
#

There was a limited run early access, yes.

wide garnet
#

Gimme gimme never get.

feral viper
#

They basically ran a limited opt in early access by releasing the current build for download for, I believe, 72 hours.

If you didn't download during that window, you're kinda stuck waiting for the finished release, unfortunately.

feral viper
#

As of right now, with it... I'm at the Eugenics stage of the game.

Step 1, breed out the Human population so I only have Mer.

Step 2, pair Mer up with advantageous traits to maximise their potential.

Step 3, TAKE OVER TAMRIEL

wide garnet
forest surge
vast wasp
#

Why do the specific TES game channels keep lighting up as if there's a new message, but there's nothing?

I'm assuming it's just Discord being Discord?

eager remnant
vast wasp
#

I see, thanks.

feral viper
#

I think Starfield's main theme is probably his best work that I've seen, as he's been able to really define it himself. Unfortunately, most of the other pieces I've heard from him at every much...

#

Derivative is technically the right word, though its got negative connotations. It's been musical circles which have been pretty clearly defined before him, that he's had to adopt rather than define himself.

#

Though I'll admit, I'm not nearly as familiar with his whole body of work as I am with Soule's. Whose best is still Total Annihilation, IMO.

#

Overall though, I think Zur is a fine composer and does good work.

forest surge
#

Some think he will be doing TESVI but who knows

feral viper
#

I think it would be in good hands, If he did.

forest surge
feral viper
#

Yeah, he did an amazing job

pale walrus
#

I'm wondering what everyone's favorite factor/feature in ES tends to be. One could say there are certain 'constants' in ES games (I'm generalizing here.) Those 'constants' might be things like - a relatively large open world with varying terrain features to explore, the ability to craft items, a certain approach to combat, the details of the lore, the setting itself with its factions and groups, etc.....

#

I can say that the thing which brought me back after playing Oblivion - a game which, to be honest, I did not enjoy as a whole - was the captivating enjoyment I derived from simply wandering around the map, from mountains to forests, to dry hills to seaside to semi-marshland and everything in between. I was utterly enchanted by that. The feeling returned with redoubled strength at the beginning of skyrim, leaving helgen. How I LOVED gazing at the landscape, wondering what the formidable and somewhat ominous black eagle head statues were on that mountain before me, taking in the snowy plain which descended into an almost canyon-like forested valley with a big river rolling over roaring rapids, fish jumping out of the water......OOOOH YEEEEAHH! And skyrim's gameplay and story was much more enjoyable for me than Oblivion (personal preference.) But it's the open world and its tremendous variety that does it for me.

#

Mind you - there are other games with open world landscapes. But they don't do them as well. Example: the Far Cry series. There's too much of an emphasis on hunting and harvesting legions of wild beasts, and you have encounters with them every 10 seconds (it seems.) Don't like it. But if you go over to RDR2 or, in particular, FC5, it goes to the opposite extreme, where the open lands are actually dull.

vast wasp
#

The player freedom is my favorite, especially the freedom of spellcrafting and enchanting from before Skyrim.

eager remnant
#

Player freedom is my answer as well. I like to craft my own stories, to create my own do-it-yourself, home-made "main quests" for each character using bits and pieces of Bethesda's quests, of modded quests and my own imagination. For me, roleplaying is a creative act. Bethesda gives me the tools and the freedom to use those tools to creat unique characters and invent unique stories to tell about them. No other developer allows me to do that to such an extent. That is why I like the games developed by Bethesda Game Studios more than games developed by other developers.

bitter kestrel
#

A reminder folks to please keep in mind #rules before posting. Criticism and feedback is always welcome but we ask that you keep discussions respectful and free of insults. Thanks!

river cloak
#

Ugh on a boat trip and waved so rocky everyone throwing up in bags I’m just playing on Skyrim on my switch lol

frail raft
#

Does anyone knows that is there any place where I could buy brand new Elder Scrolls Anthology anymore?

eager remnant
feral viper
#

I remember my first time on rough waters. PO called everyone in from the deck when the swells got too high, and we spent the whole shift sitting in the galley trying to play cards without them all flying off the table.

#

Half the shift ended up in the head at some point. Cooks still managed to work somehow though, the Wizards

river cloak
#

Yeah I’m good except seeing sick in bags does turn my stomach a little I’m just in dawnstar on Skyrim finding problems to nightmares XD

feral viper
#

It's good to have a distraction, yeab

feral viper
#

Anywho, on to more productive conversations.

#

As I've been going through this document that's been circulating online, one thing I've really found myself having to go over with a fine toothed comb is combat.

#

While I think that's it's pretty clear to most everyone that combat in Skyrim isn't great, melee in Starfield has really shown that the current approach just... Isn't sustainable in any practical sense. In fact, it seems like a major step down even from what they had in Skyrim and Fallout 4.

#

As much as some may not want to admit it, combat is, and always has been, the primary gameplay mechanism of TES, straight from it's inception. And it's something that really needs to be refined and brought up to date at least in some way.

#

Looking at the wider market, there's really only two general styles of combat going on. Animation Cycle, and Directional Combat.

Both, IMO, kinda suck. At least for RPGs.

Animation Cycle Combat looks great, and is particularly visually engaging in 3rd person. But it requires a generalisation of attacks and damage types, limiting what you can do with weapons due to the specific attack animations at one time. You either need to cancel the cycle to get specific attacks when you want (a problem in games like Darktide and Vermintide) or you just have the set weapon behaviour throughout (like in The Witcher). They tend to find best in straight action games, rather than RPGs.

On the flipside, Directional Control gives you very precise and controlled attacks, allowing you to put the type of attack you want, where you want, in combat, usually at the expense of fluid and strictly engaging animations. But the control approaches for this are debilitatingly imprecise in 3rd Person, and have an unfriendly skillcap for players in First Person. They're far better suited for simulator games than for RPGs.

nimble pond
nimble pond
#

@feral viper imagine feeling all the dmg our player character feels throughout their playthru. Burnt, frozen, shocked, clubbed, soul-drained. All them dragon fights.. you know I shoulda been coming into Whiterun covered in ash and hair/eyebrows burnt off while listening to all the guards witty remarks, at least a few times.
Before seeking help from a healer. Cause let's face it, there are some things sleep will just not heal 😄

feral viper
#

Yeeeah, I'm ok with abstracts like a Healthbar

nimble pond
feral viper
#

Lol

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I actually saw a pilot for a show a about how horrible full digital integration would be recently...

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The Amazing Digital Circus

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Among other eldritch technical horrors.

nimble pond
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Yup and wolfenstein robot dogs are the future 😄

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All I know is we better be able throw sand in ppl's eyes if we ever get to Elsweyr. All that weaponized combat-ready sand to be thrown..

feral viper
nimble pond
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It will extinguish any incoming fireballs for sure too

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-next gimmick, build your own castl... Sand castle.

wide garnet
nimble pond
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Fr tho, burying the baddies alive in a big pile of sand (prob a spell) would be hella sweet 😁 or just a hurricane of scarabs tear em down to the bone in secs right before your eyes

wide garnet
wide garnet
nimble pond
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What would happen if a hole opened up allowing the deceased to become alive again? Like every villain ever faced across the tes games all back all at once 😳

feral viper
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I... Have indulged far too much for a Tuesday, and am going to retire before I go on a tirade about how the Interex were right and the Emperor is the true villian..

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Flight all..

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I mean gnigjt

wide garnet
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If you think Inaros is a badass, wait until you meet the others.

bitter kestrel
valid monolith
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is eso down?

eager remnant
valid monolith
stiff light
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need help please.. my skyrim always force close during loading screen.. just start today.. yesterday i can play it normal..

river cloak
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Ugh Nintendo please for next console allow me to have switch mods XD I neeeeeeeeed them

wide garnet
river cloak
nimble pond
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Having our own kingdom would be neat. Built from scratch right there on the map. Choose which other kingdoms to ally with. Massive old-school kingdom war type battles mixed with the high fantasy features.

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I think having a split among the schools of magic instead of having one singular college would be intriguing as well, making them really stand out from each other and in choice. Perhaps a civil war among the schools of magic could be interesting.. Letting each school develop their own college and really detail it. Cuz I kinda hated for example if I wanted to focus on conjuration magic for a conjuration character-type, but also wanted some healing spells then I'd have to go under the restoration school for that too... Whereas I don't really understand why each school couldn't have their own unique spells for healing.

plucky willow
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I hope the next game has clockwork apostles in it and I can get cool robot parts

nimble pond
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Hope you can have temporary camps as a part of the base game too. Not necessarily as a hardcore survival mechanic. But more of the immersive experience it can provide in the experience/feel of "living off the land" as you travel among all the different places you're going to go. The aesthetic of different moon phases making some nigts brighter/darker than other nights (cloud coverage during the day too), more sense of danger at night in increased predator activity and other nightly-unique happenings. Lightning flashing and temporarily revealing your surrondings and the reflective eyes of what may be stalking you currently lol.Ofc fast-travel will stay an available option for those who don't really want to soak-in the world around them as often.

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Hunting and fishing have been great, but hope they add a form of trapping as well for a more passive approach. Both on the land and water. I think they had a gill net in Skyrim?? And also seeing other camps now and then as you travel, not in fixed areas.. but more proc gen, so you come up one way didn't see one, but maybe the next time you did, someone had setup a camp. Making it feel even more alive with ppl actively moving around the entire map. Ofc you could join them at their camp if they're not hostile to you or choose to just raid it 😆
Also need meteorites we can see falling from the sky to the ground to mine for some new armor/weapon type 😍

nimble pond
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Underwater cities would be cool. Not just one, but an entire network spread across Tamriel with a newly discovered race living among them. Unknown about at all till now as you go about absorbing all their lore. The water surrounding and encompassing the cities has been enchanted so you dont actually need any specific water-breathing gear to explore them, but rather breathe the water as if it were oxygen itself, just without the gills.

feral viper
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Well, the Dreugh are already an intelligent as quantic species. At least in their fully aquatic form. They become more feral crustacean like creatures when in their reproductive stage.

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So they probably have cities under water. So do the Slaod and their servitor races

nimble pond
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Yea, I wasn't sure if to use one already existing or just make a new "playable" race altogether. Close to Argonian, yet a bit more aquatic?

feral viper
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I think all races COULD work underwater, the issue is really more one of gameplay than anything.

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AI just generally struggles with dealing with the sorts of 3d environments water creates..

nimble pond
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I mean yea they can swim, but a lil more unique. Like how Argonians are generally associated/themed with Black Marsh, Khajiit - sand, Nord - cold, etc etc

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I'm just disappointed that we have all this great exploration on land, but when it comes to the water it is generally just there as water. In a high fantasy game like this, I just feel it's a big loss there when it has potential.

feral viper
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Yeah. ESO has touched on it a bit, but the real problem ultimately comes down to the gameplay issues rather than poor worldbuilding.

nimble pond
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I was considering a sort of "sky plane" too, like an oblivion plane except not on that plane. Instead, some other plane that's been created by mysterious celestial creatures. Like it's higher above the normal clouds, but also completely invisible to the naked eye until you where to enter inside one.

feral viper
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That was basically the Battlespire. Though it was really just a magical satellite fortress high in the sky

nimble pond
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Kind of like floating islands, held together by what looks like clouds, yet a bit different in appearance as they are not actual clouds, bit more of some magically-created one that gives off it's own gravity, so even if you were to fall off the island, you'd float back up to it

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Maybe like floating meteorites in a way.. cuz like the islands themselves would not actually be of Nirn. But bits and pieces of other planets instead.. with it's own unique flora and such not of Nirn.

feral viper
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Yeah, there's lots of really cool fantasy concepts they could explore. Provided they stop leaning so hard on the mundane fantasy tropes.

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Were I not on a phone right now, I could easily ramble off how I'd approach each remaining Daedric Realm...

nimble pond
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Don't burn up your phone lol

storm whale
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bethesda could just switch to unreal engine and save an insane amount of time making next elder scrolls

forest surge
light bolt
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Switching to a whole new engine might take longer than their current pace too….. i dont think a lot of their fanbase would like that either lol

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Same goes for the long time modders who understand how BGS’s games are like

Switching to a new engine is just going to reset a lot of things and it might either make more people upset or take longer to adjust into the new engine for everyone

nimble pond
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I'm surprised they never added rainbows or some other visual during sun and rain. Don't really care much about it, but it would be nice if there was actually something to find at the other end of one.. 😄 Regular solar eclipse cycles would be cool too (not just the whole thing with Auriel's bow in Skyrim).

nimble pond
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Health could be more based on "blood loss" since that is typically what kills you in battle. With ways to increase your overall blood pool, regeneration, and resistance to the amount of blood you lose from a blow. Things like diseases could be a slow drain unless otherwise specified. Whereas things like limb strength would be more dependent on how strong your stamina is before a bone breaks, which when one does it puts a penalty on stamina until you get it healed. While it couldn't happen to you.. being able to sever opponents limbs after enough concentrated damage is fun to me, afterall what's a mage without his hands/arms 🙂 And a slighlty slower (not very slow or fast, but somewhere in-between), more fluid feel to combat, one you feel more as opposed to the button-mashing woosh pow bang clang spam. You take a deep enough blow then you're going to have a slow drain until you patch it up in the field or see a healer. Basically a revamp of this system. Not so much into a "survival" way, but more into a slightly slower, more realistic feel to it whereas every single blow or block feels much more rewarding. Or at least some features added in this direction.

feral viper
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I do think Health in general is one of those things that needs to be reexamined, and.. well, both simplified and expanded... But that's another whoooole thing.

nimble pond
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Indeed, the way most games handle health is so ancient and boring now 😑

feral viper
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And it overflows into other systems, like how Damage and Armour behave, weighing everything down.

nimble pond
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Blood types might be interesting.. each with own unique strengths and resistances

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And yes

feral viper
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Though, I think leaning too much into Blood would be more... Thematic to a Vampire game than a general RPG. While it is technically true that blood loss is usually what kills you, it's not that simple to reflect when applied to things like Shock, Hypothermia, Fire, or even Bludgeoning damage..

nimble pond
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You could simply take like shock for example and depending on the spell or level, each hit takes whatever the appropriate amount of blood loss would be.

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Because I realize trying to create a whole other system for that on top of it starts to get to be a bit much for now

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They could also cause conditions which are like diseases. Like if you hit with enough frost magic you can get temporary hypothermia for a set period of time, with what effects it would penalize on the body.

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A percentage menu could be nifty to so you can see exactly how much of each dmg type you are taking in your overall dmg, see what's hitting you the hardest.

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I suppose in order to make a system to accompany all that, you'd have to treat overall health like it's own body with the various types of damage like limbs.. so if you take enough dmg to the shock limb (one of many limbs of the overall healthbar), you'd die of electrocution rather than blood loss.

feral viper
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Yeah. I think there's definitely a fun system in there, though I think it would fit best in a more.. combat direct game.

nimble pond
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Problem is, displaying all that on the screen is a bit much so you'd need a health menu for it.

feral viper
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Like that VR one... Uuuh...

nimble pond
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Tho the health bar could just show health in terms of whichever is closest to killing you at the moment, be it electrocution, blood loss, etc

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Combat makes up a big part of the series. I think some consideration should go into it, throughout your exploring adventures you are generally killing something. The other part of it seems to be talking and I hate talking XD

feral viper
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Absolutely, but I think that indepth a system is better suited for an exclusively combat game.

nimble pond
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Idk, I don't think a system showing which cause of death you are closest at the given moment is all that much but if it is it is..

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In any case blood types (with the strengths and resistances) would be a very cool feature to the creating player system to make for some even more interesting builds.

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Stamina and magicka are both basically the same thing. Fitness. Except one is of the physical nature of the body and the other of the mind.

feral viper
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Well, maybe. One of the wider conceptual problems is, TES doesn't actually have a Magic System, so we don't know WHAT Magicka is

nimble pond
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Another feature I wish for is at least some form of environmental destruction, however limited. Yes, I might do a few runs where I just have fun burning down entire villages, knocking towers down onto other buildings and it's citizens. All while throwing those questlines out the window lol, but I can do those on another playthru or save. But I mean I don't have to go all out either. Maybe I could just light that one guy's house on fire up in the cloud district while they are sleeping 🙂 or eliminate some businesses, friendly competition ofc..
Might make nice for any civil war or sieges visuals too. Always satisfying to see that first chunk of stone falling from their kingdoms walls

nimble pond
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Yk, a new "bandit guild" for good ol' organized crime could be something to try to. Not just simply humble thievery or bounty assassins. But truly criminal in purpose. Maybe the bandits finally got a brain and banded up to do some organized crime mob-style. Not all bandits being the same anymore, but more like different "families."

feral viper
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I think a Pirate faction organised around 'Crews', similar to Lusakan would be the best approach for that
.

nimble pond
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After TES6, I wonder what all the TES7 theories will be 😆

river cloak
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That’s if there’s a elder scrolls 7 👀

pale walrus
# feral viper Looking at the wider market, there's really only two general styles of combat go...

This is a tough thing to figure out. In a shooter, you aim your weapon and fire. For a game like TES, there's a melee aspect (typically, unless spellcasting or using a projective weapon like a bow.) Melee - including weaponless - implies movement for dodging, retreating, feinting and advancing, along with movement combinations based on the weapon being used. There can also be grappling. In real life, this is already quite complex. Putting that into a keyboard or controller is daunting. It can also be done in such a way as to make the game unplayable or at least extremely unenjoyable. A solution I've seen is turn-based, but I dislike this. Suffice it to say that nobody has figured this out to perfection for at least 80% of the audience.

pale walrus
nimble pond
# pale walrus This is a tough thing to figure out. In a shooter, you aim your weapon and fire....

Maybe like a button you push that cycles and/or brings up a wheel of different groups of movessets (each group comes with different movesets assigned to the combat buttons) and customizable where you want to put them if you want to make your own quick-selects, so every cycle changes the button moves layout etc and you have like way more moves to work with and combat styles. It could add more detail too, for like say all you want to do is bow and arrow style, the moveset grouping would allow more moves for that playstyle and your combat buttons all bow ready. If you more of a hybrid style you could create your own custome moveset button layouts.

pale walrus
# nimble pond Underwater cities would be cool. Not just one, but an entire network spread acro...

There are races that live underwater - Sload and (I think) Dreugh. This brings up another thought: i personally found Blackreach to be an absolute stroke of genius on the part of the Skyrim devs. Fascinating, intriguing, mystifying, highly creative.......absolutely brilliant. I would LOVE to see this repeated in some fashion in ES6 Hammerfell (or hammerfell-High Rock.) I wouldn't put Falmer there, though. I'd put other things. Maybe part of the underground area (multiple connected undergrounds?) could have dwemer robots, another Sload, another various weird things, yet another with undead cultist types and so forth. The possibilities are endless, and bringing the open world into a three dimensional space opens up huge opportunities for world building, stories, DLCs and such.

nimble pond
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Yes Blackreach was intriguing. I do appreciate the different environment types, makes the world feel like a world.
Maybe a giant hoarder cave where the entire underground cavern is entirely made of ppls dropped and forgotten items. The trees are made out of it, the enemies (which scattered into individual items when you kill them), the ground. Maybe some animals too like enchanted pairs of boots just hopping around like bunnies. Maybe some trees made out if Septims and jewels. The water literally drinkable wine. And at the source of it, a hoarder XD whose created this entire lil world out of all the items they hoarded (but mostly stuff ppl tossed down the wishing well to make a wish). might find some very rare treasures down there, but also a lot of junk too. Your bound to find all sorts of odd and interesting things down there XD The entrance to it could be a wishing well.

nimble pond
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That.. or an indiana-jones styled archeological underground cavern filled with huge fossils of previously undiscovered creatures that walked the surface of Nirn long before anything else did. Kinda like dinosaurs or Leviathans.. you gotta figure what happened to them and learn their secrets/powers they possessed.
Or they could use both ideas, both would be fun to me.

feral viper
# river cloak Ano here’s hoping 🤞

It is our hope which will damn us.

Hope, as the galaxy burns.
Hope, as the Imperium rots around us
Hope, as humanity rages against the dying of the light!

opaque pumice
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Copium of the highest degree

feral viper
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Live not for hope. Hope can be crushed.

Live for spite. Spite ensures.