🎮〕illuvium-zero

[ocean haven]

agree, land deserve more, but they will never get it due to token holders not wanting to give anything up.
I think we need to realize land dont have the vaule we believed it would, and there need to be done something about it, but theres not due to above.
It makes illuvium looks bad as a whole and is a lose for everyone imo

[paper lance]

without potential income, players will be very difficult to retain. why play ilz when you can play similar games which are already established and has more content. lol. same with overworld. who's gonna play the game in the long run for the sake of playing?

[hearty cradle]

prob just jim

[sharp elk]

I own a T2. I don’t look at the price because I didn’t buy the T2 as an investment, I bought it to be able to have fun playing the ILZ game. If at some point after Open Beta I decide that I no longer want to play, I’ll sell it and use whatever money I get back for something else.

We are in a bear market. The majority of NFTs have gone to zero, and tokens aren’t much better.
ILZ land was sold as getting 5% of fuel sale revenue, and as far as I know that hasn’t changed.

People are entitled to complain that their investments have gone down in value, they are entitled to blame unexpected delays for being a contributing factor in that decrease.

People are not entitled to have other people, who are in the same boat, care about the whining.
It is what it is. Deal with it. Nobody else is going to give you an increased share of future revenue, out of their own pockets, just so you can feel better about your investment decision.

Sell your land if you aren’t happy. Somebody else will buy your land and enjoy playing with it when Open Beta eventually happens.
Even better, the new people who own your land will probably be positive and optimistic about playing with their new NFT.

[cerulean steppe]

Thanks for the info, but there are people like me, who bought it as an investment. I know I was stupid and fell for the lies.

And to state it again and again: We land holders gave the DAO, and you, free money. Deal with it and don't make us too angry.

[celest wagon]

We didn't buy 1 land unfortunately but a lot of land..

So profitable that we could rent land😂😂😥

[sharp elk]

Keep stamping your feet. It will definitely achieve something.

[mortal smelt]

everyone is entitled to their opinions, no need to downplay it.

regardless if it bothers you or not

I am right, you are wrong is what is wrong with the community

There are other projects i'm involved in where regardless of the price everyone tries to lift up each other, but here it is one side or the other.

What is this take it or leave it attitude?

[ocean haven]

guess thats what going to happen when you have a mix of power, money and people unfortunately

[mortal smelt]

Which is scary when you think about the scope of the project

[ocean haven]

agree, i think its the biggest threats for illuvium to fail, and game economy to fail

[mortal smelt]

With the sentiment now, would this happen when I initially bought the land this would have given me a second thought is what is the issue at hand.

It is not only the price, but the way the whole thing is being handled.

[timid basin]

Well Said

[timid basin]

Land Buyers did not give the DAO free money 🤣🤣🤣

I also bought land, spent over $10k in the land sale, I didn’t give ANYONE free money, I gave my money in exchange for Land, you got Land in return for your money… (which at any time u could have sold and still could sell)

Don’t make us too angry or what?
And since when is it “us” and “them” around here

[mortal smelt]

yes making fun of people to get your point across is very professional

[timid basin]

How am I making fun of them?

[mortal smelt]

tell me you don't humor yourself with your words

coming from you is a disappointment

im being so turned off i might just sell off

thank you

you made this decision easy for me

and thank you team for letting this get this far

[timid basin]

I’m humoured by their words

Someone buying a product and receiving it and having the ability to sell it to someone else saying they gave free money to the creators of the product is wildly hilarious

People losing money isn’t fun or funny

People thinking they’ve given free money to the shop keeper when they were infact exchanging money for a product is basically a comedy skit…

[mortal smelt]

you are looking directly into what they are saying rather than looking it as a whole

can you not read between the lines?

must you make it about trying to call them out on their mistakes when all they want to do is make a point?

everyone is missing the big picture here

and quite honestly its disgusting

[timid basin]

Disgusting?

Im out of here

[mortal smelt]

how you got in your position is beyond me

making sure you won't be there the next time

guaranteed

[timid basin]

When u walk into #zero chat and see a funny comment that u comment on and now ur being made out to be the reason someone wants to sell and a disgusting person 🤷‍♀️

Wild around here, why r we all so on edge and ready to jump on people

Lighten up guys

[gloomy quarry]

Land owners are treated like a used wet wipes. We generated 10 times or more revenue than beyond, used this as a proof of a working revdis model, for months spamming how successful landsale was and how much revenue it generated, and once that hype died down and point of the sale was proven, completely forgot about it.

Meanwhile ILV stakers get rewards that offset their losses. The upward potential of the token is way higher than that of land (unless you believe t1 will reach 5-10k or more?). The revdis from tokens will most probably be higher than that of playing land (remain to be seen), while not having to do anything to "EARN" that (ILVz haters like to use that word). Yes there is a locking period, but that has long passed, even if start date is date of land sale.

Beyond gets leaderboard rewards, expanded leaderboard rewards, alpha stamps and whatnot. Who voted for that crap to begin with? How much revenue did Beyond generate and how much did Land sale do? Yet beyonder wishes are fulfilled without much drama, while land owners are painted as some sort of greedy degenerates?

For the record I hold 10x more value in ILV than in land, that doesn't change anything for me to call out something I dont feel is right.

[mortal smelt]

when you walk into the room and ignore the elephant and walk straight up to the mouse is what is wrong here, you don't want to admit you did anything wrong and that is ok, but don't try to do damage control in such a way.

[mortal smelt]

Well said

[hearty cradle]

yup

its hard to be a land holder now

[mortal smelt]

some of these jokers think land holders don't hold any ILV and provide much needed liquidity

the attitude around this issue needs to GTFO

and work towards a solution than tearing the investors/collecters apart

Everytime someone wants to come in and try to downplay what is being said here and it just adds to the fire, like what is your mission? what do you plan to accomplish by doing that?

You have seen the same replies again and again, which means your way of tackling the issue is NOT WORKING.

[gloomy quarry]

just look at the reasonings behind declining the battleboard proposal in https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/809220500756234280, its so dumb it gave me a headache

all those points were considered and answered in the proposal or here, goes to show how much of that is read/taken into consideration

[mortal smelt]

A user did note that some councils find it to much work to read everything

[gloomy quarry]

lol

[hearty cradle]

team can vote?

[gloomy quarry]

if they on council i guess

[hearty cradle]

huh

why are they in council

[gloomy quarry]

lol who knows anymore

[mortal smelt]

Dutch auction prices make it look like a scam

[gray stream]

@timid basin buying a product that should have useable value back in 2022 not in 2024. So, yeah, you can call that a broken promise and free money in some way (money now = higher valuer than money in the future).
Beside that I agree that people talk about serious issues and getting mocked/downplayed by council membets shouldn't happen at all

[visual pawn]

I feel attacked

[hearty cradle]

its called gaslighting

[hoary forge]

hi guys. can we but that in one Feedback in the #1020759212172775464? so the #🎮〕illuvium-zero channel stays free for talking about the game.

[mortal smelt]

we are talking about the game

the game that didn't come out specifically

[hoary forge]

you talking about stuff that you think goes wrong at illuvium and that would be a feedback

[mortal smelt]

its just these little issues arise when we talk about our investments

stop it

you won't tell me what to do

[hoary forge]

i know but i read it now for days in here.
its a feedback, i know you are not happy how things are going.

[mortal smelt]

i've been here long enough to warrant what im saying

[timid basin]

If you bought ILV during the land sale, locked it all up for 12 months staked in SLP with the max yield

You will still have lost more $ than if u had bought and held land from the landsale

The extra yield we received turned out to have been very much priced in

But clearly there is a lot of resentment and discontent in the Vocal Land Community.

I think theres a lot of discontent in the Illuvium Community as a whole and its mainly due to everything taking a lot longer (delays) than it was initially reported it would take and the Team’s Leadership is 100% responsible for those mistakes

Everyone has a right to be discontented about this

But there seems to be a feeling that the Team or Council Members or both have a duty to be doing something to bring satisfaction to discontented persons,
And from my point of view apart from the team working hard to have the product come out ASAP there is really nothing else to be done…

[dire pier]

All responses in council chambers look reasonable. Vetemors nonsense about ILV landsale not counting as money for game dev is ridiculous.

[hoary forge]

its still a feedback and to discuss this feedback we can open something in #1020759212172775464

[hoary forge]

i don´t tell you what to do. i only would appreciated it.

[mortal smelt]

I respect that

[gloomy quarry]

Again, typically for you, only asnwer to 5% of what you are replying to. No one cares how much token has dropped, both token and land will start to recover at the same time. The token has a much higher potential to climb than land. While also possibly earning you more without doing anything.

You should really stop replying in this half-assed manner, it only pisses off ppl more. It's your job to know this.

[mortal smelt]

you are beating a dead horse, and ultimately you will become like me

[analog inlet]

I would like to poin out that the land sale only produced 7million ( aproximately) in usable money the rest of it was SilV2 which cannot be reasonably count a income forthe DAO

[mortal smelt]

non land holders do not have any right to talk in this issue

[dire pier]

King of derails welcome my lord solarstorm

[timid basin]

When?

[dire pier]

The shopkeeper bit

[analog inlet]

Im not a delaril i present facts that landowner do notwant to accpt

[gloomy quarry]

It burned a shit ton of SILV, which only benefits the DAO and token holders. Use ur brain man

[mortal smelt]

especially if you are not on the council you have no say in the matter

[hoary forge]

everyone can share his opinion.

[mortal smelt]

i don't go to the token chat and talk about land, but I could

[gray stream]

In my opinion the delay is something evetybody dealt with already but ilb got released much later and it was always unclear if/when these pics will have further value as being part of a minigame. Still they now receive ilv for free and that ofc. causes ilz owners to feel left out...

[analog inlet]

Yes i hold the governance token --holding land does not give the holder any such rights anyone who say ILV holders dont havea say in aANYTHING tthat involves the DAO are just plain wriong

[timid basin]

Ill just stop replying, too much salt in this chat, this aint a rational conversation and I need to refrain from high emotion conversations more often

[hoary forge]

or we can open something up in the #1020759212172775464

[mortal smelt]

or we can just leave it as is till there is a solution cause the problem is not going anywhere

[ocean haven]

classic gaslighting 'This is all your fault'

[mortal smelt]

narcissistic behaviour

[hoary forge]

but to discuss it here day in day out helps no one.
if you put up a feedback, team can responds to it easier than to read 100... of messages here in this channel

[analog inlet]

No this is not about that -- this about knowing whAt you are buy and accepting the responsibility and looking i mirror .

[celest wagon]

let's stay on the basic plan that Arron had defined at the start....

[mortal smelt]

councils said they read everything, there is no point. if you are afraid we are hurting new people coming in, well that is already too late.

[analog inlet]

Prior to the first lad sale I was the one who triedto educate peole I was the one who tried to give potentional landowners all the informatio -- i was mockedthen to becae OMG land its land imgoing to by it be an investor and make million becase its land

[dire pier]

Solution isnt releasing more nfts because your current nft got old, council is absolutely right to call that infantile. However dev is responsible for delivering a product for your old nft and that may recoup the value.

Solar fk off seriously

[hoary forge]

its never to late. public beta is a few months away. i guess we are going to start.

[dire pier]

This isnt about you at all

[mortal smelt]

i've heard that too many times before

im done with the hype train

done with the 2 more weeks

[hoary forge]

and i said a few times that this should be discussed in a thread in #1020759212172775464

[analog inlet]

Ican prove I triedto educate peole look at the t ime stamps on these posts

Here are some of my posts form " back in the day" if you a new i hope you find them informative.

ALL BELOW IMO NFA DYOR
**Comparison **
#💬〕general message

Land owner revenue explanation
#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

Blue Prints
#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[dire pier]

Woof all that changed was the board being denied, was a good decision long term

Everything else is people being people and attack each other

[radiant sky]

That was after the Sale 😬

Why you didn't Post before Sale?

[dire pier]

Ugh why engage

[analog inlet]

Everyone trivializes me give me no respect or any sort of acknowledgement and i am sick of it . when i was active I tried to do my best for the community and got nothing back trollish remarks and personal attacks

[dire pier]

Please call your mom

She might care

My ban is incoming btw

[hoary forge]

guys stop it now

[analog inlet]

if you go back aar enough in my history you will see i did

[gloomy quarry]

What you said is nothing new, most land holders were aware of this and just proceeded forward on nothing but belief these issues will be solved by Open Beta. And here we are

[analog inlet]

i think alot of stuff was lost in the dicord reconfiguing

[radiant sky]

I was reading discord daily AT the time of the Sale and i didn't saw a single Post of you.

[gray stream]

At the moment I am actually not displeased by the delay or by the assumingly better treatment of ilb holders but seeing a council member taking this feedback lightly, deflecting arguments by opening side discussiond and so on, that is unsuited behaviour for a serious project.
Yesterday we had a good response from a dev that should be pointed at but this today wasn't the best way to deal with this

[radiant sky]

Maybe you got muted, so they can sell Land better 😂

[hoary forge]

i get you and i take it as a feedback. you can complain official to our #❓❓〕support if you want.

[dire pier]

People spent tons on landsale, was timed very well with the rewards unlocked. I bought knowing it was a bad decision the same way everyone in a casino knows they are just having fun. The hype around it was no different than any other project. Nothing done wrong as long as devs produce a final product in line with promises and they are working on it. No fraud, no bad decisions, just the same problems any new start up has

[hoary forge]

can we please relax now a bit. its sunday funday. enough hate for today. and football coming up later the day.

[dire pier]

For solars credit so he can chill i did see his daily posts and stats on why ilv token is better than land

[hearty cradle]

cant have fun when bag is duwn

[hoary forge]

https://tenor.com/view/have-fun-saturday-night-live-weekend-update-enjoy-yourself-take-it-easy-gif-21736740

[dire pier]

Prior and during the sale, was like a guy in your ear telling you to stop rolling dice when everyone is having a great time.. landsale was awesome, we all lost money.. now we're poor and would like the money back but thats crypto

[mortal smelt]

I don't know what projects you are involved in, but the ones I am in do things to try and protect a certain floor.

by giving utility

that works

[dire pier]

So.. like the first AAA web3 maybe?

Or a bandaid sticker nft like every other project

[gloomy quarry]

so in a nutshell, if it broke dont fix it. gots it

[mortal smelt]

yeah been using that AAA moniker for a min., don't think any of the people I introduced Illuvium to want to keep hearing it.

[dire pier]

My point play the beta, keep crit restricted to that and not ask for dev time to be spent on bandaids

[mortal smelt]

this is my point

[gloomy quarry]

how come bandaid time is spent on other things, like beyond, but not what land owners want? it's one of the boiling points but not the only one

[hearty cradle]

which project

[dire pier]

Battleboard getting shot down is a major win longterm and glad to see it

[ocean haven]

personally i dont even own a lot of land, have more in IB, but seeing how land evolved have been eye opening, and not even sure im going to play the game anymore.
Might just buy token and sell next bullrun

[hearty cradle]

because land is sold out, while beyond can keep milking the community

[gloomy quarry]

well duh

[gloomy quarry]

in what way its a win?

[hearty cradle]

i guess beyond tapped out too

[dire pier]

Do you own a t1 nasty

[gloomy quarry]

2 t1 2 t2, why does it matter?

[dire pier]

Mechanics in game are broken so that t1s produce fuel at 1:9 a t4. Promises at landsale said t4 would 40x a t1. You're winning a massive windfall there and complaining about bandaid nft's

[hearty cradle]

im calling bs is theres a nft project thats not down bad, unless it just minted

[analog inlet]

Your ethier exagrating or did not back read ... here is jsut one example 🔥SolarStorm🔥 — 03/05/2022 6:57 AM#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[dire pier]

At the expense of whales who bought based on land mechanics given by devs at sale

[analog inlet]

i did some more indepth reacserch and found the older posts

[dire pier]

Solar we already said you did, scroll up

[radiant sky]

Yea that was before my time 😂

[mortal smelt]

negatory

[gloomy quarry]

just because someone else is having it worse than me doesn't change anything, thats faulty logic.

ilv will most likely outperform land by a lot, which makes it a bad investment. and dont even start with the nonsense "you bought to play the game". show me this super entertaining and polished game that is worth 3k to play? if u can't then its an investment, a bad one

[dire pier]

You were first, we could have all saved money listening to you. You are a very smart young man with great potential. Daddy was wrong.

[analog inlet]

you probely start being active when i stated backing away

[dire pier]

Done gg enjoy your sunday

[gloomy quarry]

this what we call, the vetemor special

[analog inlet]

the fact is buy ANYTHING in the web 3 space is like buying a lottery ticket - the dao devs or anyone else are not resposible for anyone lossess you could have choosen not to buy and bought when a OFFICAL date ---not estimate was gioven

That inclused me --- i don't blame any one for all the money i have lost

[mortal smelt]

alright the convo is getting off course here, im going to leave, everyone have a great day. I hear you and feel you from all sides ❤️

[gloomy quarry]

no one is crying for land dropping in value, the problem is people feel a certain way, and called out greedy, insolent, wanting to inflate their assets for it. While other parts of the community are treated differently for similar things

[analog inlet]

let me ask you a question _ when you buying land did you read all the Offical documentation? or did you jsut listen to videos and steam which is akin to listening to a car sales man

[gloomy quarry]

ive read every single thing about illuvium since aug 2021, also bought the land with silv. judging by where you are taking this, its way off from the point here

[analog inlet]

My point is where in the official documentation was there any mention that owning land gave any other rights or privilege's other than

being able to play will only be available to X amount of owners who by an limited about 100 000 land .
5% of fuel reated sales as a eth payout

wheredoes it say land owners will be offical recoginized as investors , have say in governance , etcetcetc

So the question is given the factual aspects of what you bought . How are you being treated differntly according to the term on which the purchase was made

[gloomy quarry]

what are u talking about bro, most if not all land owners are also holding ILV? smh

[analog inlet]

Which is completely separate form land what is your point ? yes you can one ILV and land I am asking you to clarify this statement
@nASTY
1 While other parts of the community are treated differently for similar things (edited)

in the context of being a landholder only

[gloomy quarry]

you said buying land does not grant you governance right, and I replied that most people who own land also own governance tokens

even if they didn't, they are still entitled to voice their opinion and frustration, thats how it works with everything

[hearty cradle]

no land owner demand governance lol

[analog inlet]

1. Yes but the second part of the statement in irrelevant since we are talking about land holders specifically
2. No one is denying that - again as i have stated many many times - i have no hate for land owner s land and have accepted the 5% fuels related revenue taken from the stakers

My problem rest sole with people not understanding what they bought specifically and - implying things show change because it has not worked out in their favor and have been losses

as I said above buying anything in the web three space is like buying a lottery ticket sometimes it works in your favor sometimes it does not - at the end of the day you choose to buy that ticket .

Re : poele blaming the "delays" . I personaly don't accpt this IMO - Why? The fact that thing have not been on schedule -especially since the team have NEVER ( to my knowledge ) given out a specific date for any type of " live product" - ILZ has always even before the sale been depeneant on Overworld going " live" so really if somone was that concerned they could have waitted for a confimed live date for overworld live and then bought

If the devs had commited to a specific date and then missed it - that would have been completely differnt IMO

[gloomy quarry]

this is vetemor 2.0, like talking to a wall. have burgers to make. bye

[analog inlet]

yes jsut completely dismiss people that bring up inconvenient reality's because they don't fit with the way you think reality should be

[gloomy quarry]

nope, its called going in circles. every single thing u wrote was answered earlier

[cerulean steppe]

When I say free money, then it means money for nothing.

No interest, no RevDis, no voting rights, no product, no fuel for years.

That is what I call a rug.

ILV Stakers got RevDis from the land sale, land owners didn't get RevDis.

You should be real quiet, because without us the DAO could not pay you.

And stop grinning.

[hearty cradle]

he is famour for that

[analog inlet]

I competely disagree with your interpretation -

[hearty cradle]

wait until he gives u the dragon hoard lock gif

https://tenor.com/view/dragon-gold-hoarder-hoard-smaug-gif-15973167

[cerulean steppe]

Thanks for your deep insight.

[worldly flume]

Any advice please? How to increase fuel efficiency?
Is it better to spread out the fuel converters like this or, grouped together and put as many power generators as i can near them?

[broken roost]

let's not let this message die. At this point I'm down to strike with all land owners and not produce fuel when the game comes out. Land owners have been forgotten for over a year now

[radiant sky]

looks like a t1
just spam lvl 1 converter next to each other on 50% efficiency for the build up phase.

[worldly flume]

Yes, it is a t1. So ignore efficiency and build as many fuel conveerters as i can?

[radiant sky]

yes ser

[worldly flume]

And keep them that way, or is a point where i should sell them and build efficiency?

[radiant sky]

in season 1 i built on my t1 10 crypton converter (for nexus 7) and 15 hyperion converter (3 matlabs in 2 days) and some solon converters for (upgrades of buildings and zero point transducer)

[radiant sky]

i kept them that way until i had the 15 Blueprints

[worldly flume]

Ok, great, thanks

[radiant sky]

that doesn't work. When fuel hits a certain price lvl, dao starts selling unlimited fuel for that price lvl

it just got voted on in iip 39 last week

[cerulean steppe]

Awesome response.

[broken roost]

Dao can only create fuel out of a % of what it's produced in lands

[radiant sky]

not anymore

[broken roost]

WHAT

Since when

[radiant sky]

read up on iip 39

last week or so

[broken roost]

Wtf I'm selling this crap

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-i-know-that-feel-bro-pikachu-gif-15485156

[broken roost]

And they didn't even set a low price or a minimum a piece of land will make I assume

[radiant sky]

no, that wasn't part of the iip

[broken roost]

Of course

Who cares right?

What the actual fuck

[radiant sky]

will it isn't needed.
They implemented the mechanics to fully control the fuel output and a top rail.
So they say where the price is going, no need for a bottom rail.
If price gets too low they just reduce fuel output of land or increase fuel need for all the fuel based actions.

[celest wagon]

just left the market free🙏

[vivid cipher]

#1023321302163009556 does exist for posterity. But yeah. There's a few channels that are gone

[broken roost]

I know but I'm saying if the Dao decides fuel can be generated out of thin air past a minimum price, the least they can do is talk about what minimum generation a plot should make and discuss with landowners, who already bought on the previous terms in which they are the ones who control the amount of fuel created

[radiant sky]

this discussion will basically take place when they start debate about costs of fuel.
Than it's going to be decided how much dao and land makes with a certain amount of DAU.

[celest wagon]

We are not really owners because our assets are constantly changing rules

[broken roost]

Exactly

[mystic umbra]

Land owners need to just bite the bullet and realize it’s not what it was originally marketed as and sell

Speaking as a former land owner

[broken roost]

Indeed

[celest wagon]

I would have done better to buy an apartment in real life😅

[hearty cradle]

buy an asset in ILV where the utility can change every 6 months

[mystic umbra]

Zero brings a lot of bad blood for me, very easy to tell it was a money grab considering the initial delay to zero as a whole

[broken roost]

I'm done complaining on discord and treated like shit by simps

[hearty cradle]

yea i sold last year

[broken roost]

Social media is a better way to express frustration and let others know not to come here

[mystic umbra]

And then changes that negatively effect the amount you can earn on your land when the landowners have earned jack already, meanwhile beyond players are racking up ILV rewards

[hearty cradle]

dnt forget to tag

[hearty cradle]

u can use it as pfp tho

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/illuvium-illuviumio-ilv-yield-farming-gif-22225026

not yet players, they still pushing for a game based on Illuvitars

[hearty cradle]

i heard wave 2 was a flop

[mystic umbra]

I saw it flop

[broken roost]

But wait there is wave 3 still to come 😂

[analog inlet]

You want a more detailed response fine I will grant that request

1: When I say free money, then it means money for nothing.

7million dollars - not free money its a retail purchase - really its like someone buying a shirt or a mug ---which is all you did you bought what could be compare to as normal video game purchase

2.No interest, no RevDis, no voting rights

According to the terms of sale none the first three was included in the product you bought. That is not even an opinion that is a INDISPUTABLE FACT - if you did not due your due diligence and realize this that is not anyone's problem but your own -

2a no product, no fuel for years.

Again there was no officially date on when you would receive your product SO how can you complain you have not received it for YEARS when there has been no official date to anchor that statement to?

2b ADDED Note people literally pressured the dao/devs to push the land sale through ---- the IlZ page was flooded with wen land constantly - this with only a estimate when the game will go live

2c Again people used their free will to by land without such knowledge of a SPCIFIC date knowing that estimates can sometime be missed -- -this is not the fault of the devs but the Purchaser for not waiting for a specific date so in my personal opinion this point rests on the purchaser not the DAO or the devs

3That is what I call a rug

You have the right to have any opinion you want if you want to call a dog a cat or a plane a car go for it

but if you want to bring in those pesky things called facts and reality in to play then that is beyond absurd that is not even in the realm of even being reasonable

DEFINITION: A rug pull in the crypto industry is when a development team suddenly abandons a project and sells or removes all its liquidity. The name comes from the phrase to pull the rug out from under (someone), meaning to withdraw support unexpectedly.

Considering we are still getting progress report this cannot be classified as a rug

4 ILV Stakers got RevDis from the land sale, land owners didn't get RevDis.

again you seem to not know the inherent properties of what you bought - Land holders are not qualified for REvDIS they get a " 5% fuel related revenue eth payout" for swaping fuel token as per the agreement and again staker did not benefit that much as only 7million was usable income and therefore eligible for revdis

5.You should be real quiet, because without us the DAO could not pay you.
this proves another one of my points and overinflated an unrealistic evaluation of land its inherent properties and its value - if no one every plays on there land -- nothing will be noticed by anyone as the DAO contributes 95% of the fuel

6 And stop grinning.
and that is just a unneeded salt comment

[true sequoia]

yeah Kieran said that, which I think was a mistake. Personally, beyond is the only thing that is working right now, and I like the wave 2 art and pricing much better than one. Come join us over there landowners...at least you actually get a payout lol

[mystic umbra]

But they keep pumping ilv rewards to attract users to it, people were already hyped on land they didn’t have to use ilv to incentivize people to get it, now the land owners feel forgotten and cheated and I believe rightfully so, there was already and issue between the stakers and land owners that goes back before even the land sale. But this is different. These are two games from Illuvium. One of them the barrier to entry js extremely small and you have the ability to earn ILV rewards. The other, a much higher barrier to entry with no rewards and no means of getting a return on what you have paid for at all. If you can’t see how this is not right than you are extremely misguided.

[vivid cipher]

@broken roost that's not ok

[analog inlet]

@vivid cipher do you know why my bolded formatting got screed up it was supposed be only the quotes that was bolded

[vivid cipher]

I'll take a look. Too many *

[radiant sky]

#1023650034593570917

[analog inlet]

coreect ...mysincer apoligies

[hearty cradle]

people can say the truth without fear being muted or banned now?

[cerulean steppe]

Oh, and when you write an IIP-39 that affects land holders, at least ask us for input.

[hearty cradle]

or called trolling?

[mystic umbra]

Look man, you weren’t interested in land you weren’t buying this was from the the get go, would make me think you wouldn’t be paying as much attention to the marketing kieran was doing around the land sale, it was marketed very differently, it was marketed as being very close to release and marketed with the idea that the game would be released sometime either later in the year or towards the beginning of the next. The way in which you market a product and price that product is going to trigger some sort of a response from your community down the line, if you were true to marketing promises and the valuation of the price of the asset makes sense to what you’re getting in return no one would be upset, but the fact of the matter is that is not what happened. Quite the opposite and then changes are being made to how the fuel is being sold without the game having released at all yet on chain, kneecapping land owners before they’ve even had a chance to earn from their asset

[radiant sky]

they did... in the chat for token holders 😄

[broken roost]

This man speaks straight forward truths

[analog inlet]

Again my question is did they ever give a official date of release ? yes or no?

[hearty cradle]

i guess was just too ahead of my time, people started to open their eyes

[cerulean steppe]

Yes, IIP-39, was it for me. I can no longer accept this kind of governance.

[mystic umbra]

This isn’t some false dichotomy where it’s only a yes or no, it doesn’t matter that there wasn’t an official release date when you mess up on the ETA that badly

[hoary forge]

only thing they said is alpha/beta in about 6 weeks after land sale. that changed because community and team wanted a more AAA look for the game. if i am correct.

[cerulean steppe]

They knew how bad the Zero app was, when they started the land sale. It is not like they started to look at it 4 weeks later.

[broken roost]

Lol did you see the game right now?

[mystic umbra]

That should have been done before the land sale and the team knows that but if they did how do you think the sale would have gone?

[timber glacier]

Currently (for T1 plots) it's more efficient just building high numbers of level 1 converters and just producing passive fuel early on.

Once you get to level 4 on converters it becomes more profitable having fewer converters with 150% efficiency.

[hoary forge]

yes looks much much better than the first leaks.

[cerulean steppe]

At this point I want to see some team members in this "discussion".

[analog inlet]

thatis an opinion not a stement of fact .

[hoary forge]

i know, they made a mistake on that one.

[broken roost]

Yup

[vivid cipher]

The odds of team jumping into a brawl are low.

[analog inlet]

I think that was for alpha test only wasn't it ?

[hoary forge]

idk when the roadmap was public when they said something like end of 21.

[mystic umbra]

You try to negate everything on a technicality of no official release where the brute of the anger is coming from the rewards you can earn in beyond to the nothing burger you get from zero currently. You can’t dismiss this by saying you knew what you were getting. Watch any video of kieran discussing the “upcoming land sale” and you still tell me that what people have right now, is what they knew they were getting when they bought it

[hoary forge]

difference between old and new.

[cerulean steppe]

I said multiple times, that I am not worried about delays, I can wait.

What I can not tolerate is the attitude shown from certain council members and how they decide over fuel mechanics when we have no say at all.

I will keep this brawl going until I see some effort made by the team.

[broken roost]

Can someone in the team address this properly?

[analog inlet]

Did you read the offical documentaion ? that superseeds anything that is said in a video

[hoary forge]

its sunday idk if they are working.

[hearty cradle]

couple of weeks after land sale and no the decision to revamped the graphic was one sides by grant

[worldly flume]

Ok, great, thanks for advice

[vivid cipher]

There's a lot being said here. One of the good things about using a feedback/idea thread is that it's how governance works. You don't need to be on council to effect change. It also helps to have a specific idea that can be molded to meet the different input and desired outcomes. And I'm trying to condense some of the thoughts in here and don't see many actionable items. There are some but they get lost in the firehose.

[mystic umbra]

So they can say anything they want to market a product as long as the official documentation says otherwise, got it

Ever heard of anything called accountability

[hoary forge]

i don´t think that it come from grant alone. i guess a few from the team would decide that

[hearty cradle]

it was grant

[hoary forge]

i tryed that before. they don´t want to use #1020759212172775464 channel.

[radiant sky]

you sure need to be on council to effect change.
You can just make them think about something, but in the end there is no effect anybody could bring on in feedback chanels.

[analog inlet]

its called marketing - have you ever see a commecial for a buger on tv - does it look the same when you go by it ? same thinsg - why do you thik used care sales man is an unfalttering comment

[mystic umbra]

And if they didn’t have disclaimers then they would have law suits up the ass ever heard of Pepsi where’s my jet

[vivid cipher]

Some Council did not like the Battle board. That's not proof that no one can do anything.

[hearty cradle]

it has been said repeatedly during the delay as well

i minted land and was following closely, i should know

[hoary forge]

ok

[analog inlet]

still the point is always read the documentaion and fine print before making a susbstantial purchase

[radiant sky]

didn't say otherwhise.
I myself would love a long time approach for getting things right in IZ.
Battleboards to me were just a real reward for incentivice playing the alpha, unlike the 15 bp strategy.

But in the end this IIP shows definetly what i said. You can make them think about something, but there is no more effect anyone could have outside of council or team.

[mystic umbra]

Sounds familiar

[analog inlet]

sighs....obvioly you want to be live you were mislead and take none of the responsibility - that is your right I guess

[mystic umbra]

That’s your response to me showing you what they did is potentially illegal

[hearty cradle]

wow

token holder got misled too

[broken roost]

Taking legal action is an interesting take is it not?

[hearty cradle]

100% revdis

[analog inlet]

so is showing a burgar that does nto appear the same when you buy it . real;ly your grasping at straws .

[hearty cradle]

well if someone lodge a complain to SEC or ASIC they might take a look at it

idk if they have moved to UAE

[mystic umbra]

You brought up the burger buddy what are you talking about 😂

[hearty cradle]

fig why ru wasting time with him lol

[mystic umbra]

Because he is wrong

[hearty cradle]

we know

we just let him

[mortal smelt]

So 4 to 6 weeks to work on graphics. Ok, done. Where is the beta?

[hearty cradle]

it took longer than 6 weeks

[analog inlet]

im saying that really you can believe you were mislead and it was illegal if you want . its like omg this government will do this ( usually us because they think anything that they proclaim is important"

[mortal smelt]

Correct

All I hear currently is PvP and the myriad of problems it has, which is of concern to the new timeline.

[hearty cradle]

misleading is a promise made that could be reasonably deemed affecting buying decision

[mystic umbra]

And if you decide to not believe that, then you are being ignorant because all of the evidence of the marketing says otherwise

[hearty cradle]

will people still mint plot at a certain price if they knew it will get delayed for months?

[mortal smelt]

Possibly years

[mystic umbra]

The answer is no

Especially when there are people paying $20k for that asset

[cerulean steppe]

Maybe mainstream gamers ...

[hearty cradle]

i saw somone fomo'd T1 at 2e

[mortal smelt]

Any amount can be life altering in different circumstances.

[analog inlet]

yes and all moarketing in history has been 100% factual- sigh......the point is its the end users responsibility to due thier due diligence not realiy on a sales pitch where eer it may come from.

[hearty cradle]

how can u due dilligence when the info provided was false lmao

[mortal smelt]

I know the counter argument is “you knew the risks” but with proper info people can mitigate that

[hearty cradle]

remember IIP for land was +- 25% rail

[cerulean steppe]

You can have that opinion. But this kind of marketing won't bring in mainstream gamers. And this means the end of Illuvium.

[analog inlet]

ifthat is the case thenthe correct coruse of action would have been to wait for a confirmed and offical specic realease date . If none was give you have the option not to buy.

[hearty cradle]

web2 gamers wont touch it if they know the utility can change every 6 months

[mortal smelt]

Who are you talking to? They have me blocked 😂

[cerulean steppe]

What do you mean?

[vivid cipher]

I did not really follow the recent battle board stuff in gov. But it does not sound like you are talking about that anyways.
I thought I saw you active in some of the many fuel discussions in gov?
The team, Aaron, wrote the heart of the approved fuel iip. Because the orderbook format is possible to deliver sooner than the previously planned balancer type multi-asset liquidity pool.

What is it that you want the team to be doing? Or what specific questions do you want answered?

[mystic umbra]

There’s a difference to marketing being 100% factual and then straight up lying to your consumers

[mortal smelt]

The person you are replying back to

[hearty cradle]

IZ alpha launch info (couple of weeks) was given by the CTO in an AMA

[cerulean steppe]

Oh, I am not talking about the orderbook. It is the fuel mechanics in IIP-39.

[vivid cipher]

Ah. I'll take a look.

[analog inlet]

i don't believe that it may not be as success but I don't believe it will die completely

[mortal smelt]

Who is it that you are replying to?

[hearty cradle]

lol

[mystic umbra]

Solarstorm you probably told him to stfu or something and hurt his feelings so he blocked you

[vivid cipher]

You can unblock to check?

[mortal smelt]

Lol no I blocked him first that is probably why

[mystic umbra]

Well there you go

[analog inlet]

Idont have woof3 blocked that is how i saw the message

[mortal smelt]

I thought it was maybe a council member, false alarm

[vivid cipher]

@mortal smelt I've seen you say that you basically just want the game out. Is there any other actionable response that you'd like to see? I guess I had seen you ask for a description of the work still to be done to get to the public launch.

[mystic umbra]

Imagine if Illuvium got sued for the land sale and the person who won made it contingent that they had to refund every person that bought land, god the project would fucking die 🤣

[mortal smelt]

That is all I ask.

[gray stream]

Agree the missleading during the selling period of ilz would have been enough to win on the legal side outside of web3. If I bought any product outside of web3 which doesn't hold up to the promised standard I could easily get my money back. In web3 we know it is not that easy, projects don't hold up to that standard. Ilv wanted to be different to hold up this level but it turned out they can't. Everybody holding still was a miracle in itself but you should really think twice before you downplay this serious issue. Kinda sad that something this obv. needs to be said

[hearty cradle]

one thing i learnt from web3, in the end every project will dissapoint

[mortal smelt]

Let’s not generate hate, we all know the frustration comes from the love of this succeeding.

[mortal smelt]

Not all buddy

[mystic umbra]

I mean, life disappoints, web3 just straight up deceives 🤣

[hearty cradle]

which one hasnt yet

[broken roost]

i've been disappointed, we've all been. This is not it, this is straight up scam

[vivid cipher]

This feels like a part of the cycle.

[mortal smelt]

The ones that have the community and creators in mind.

[hearty cradle]

2nd lesson
only marry your best friend, never your bag.

[hearty cradle]

which one lol

[mortal smelt]

I won’t promote any other project here

[vivid cipher]

You seem to be taking everything to the furthest degree. Greatly exaggerating and oversimplifying

[vivid cipher]

Haha. Jaggy wants you banned. Lol

[hearty cradle]

u can ping me in #1023650034593570917

or #1023650415893545031

[mortal smelt]

It’s the emotional state that is speaking, best to do is hear them out.

[broken roost]

alright then dont listen to me, but please answer @mystic umbra whos a way better speaker than me

[hearty cradle]

its the wild wild web

[vivid cipher]

I think I remember the post you mean. I'll take another look.

[broken roost]

guys just so we don't let this conversation die can we atleast post on feedback ideas so that we might discuss better and maybe get someone on the team to coment on it?

as you see im not very good at expressing myself or writing thats why im not doing it

[hearty cradle]

theres nothing else to comment lol

people minted land

its done

[vale dragon]

🤣

[vivid cipher]

Hot take

[radiant sky]

IIP 39 didn't got a single council downvote, you won't change anything before next epoch, and most likely 50% + of all councils will get the same positions for next epoch, so most likely won't change anything for the next 8 months.

[broken roost]

yeah iknow i just really want to see what the team has to say about it, and i've never encountered people like you who speak trully here, im always confronted by simps on the chat

[radiant sky]

nick stated team is aware, and they speak and want to do something about it.
But in the end it's just actions who could change your mind. At least thats with me.
About the proportional fuel output change making t1 to the tier with best fuel output(initial price proportions), the team feels confident to have found a good spot to let it be.

About IIP 39 the team is obviously glad it got through. They got the power of the economy back and they will most likely sell the other 80k landplots faster.

[vale dragon]

please, could you please argue much more severe to make the land price much cheaper to let me buy more cheaper land? thanks, guys,please work harder!!!

[upbeat drift]

Hey people,anyone here with more than 6-7 lands?

How do you manage them all daily?

[radiant sky]

what do you mean exactly?

[vale dragon]

click your phone or pc five to eight times, that is enough.

[broken roost]

at least there are more land sales to come, then they will ensure landowners are making enough to encourage those future sales

all the attention is now on illuvitars because there are still sales to come sooner

[radiant sky]

Doubt that... low bar is Set to 4 months after public Beta Launch. Land is still being invested in to be built up to Max Buildings when they are able to Start selling more Lands.

[broken roost]

other than that and back to the point, marketing land as it was, it being THE ONLY source of fuel, (meaning all fuel will be produced accodingly on what landowners mint) and then just changing that with an IIP

thats just a scam

[lethal wyvern]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[radiant sky]

Well, everything is subject to Change, it's no difference in the real world.
But yea, whole iip was a tough pill to swallow.

[broken roost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK-jtBDDWIY

[hearty cradle]

imagine buying a car, then the car producer say its no longer a car, but a hot tub

[broken roost]

just watch minute 5

[hearty cradle]

i dont think people take his words seriously

[broken roost]

kieran himself ''illuvium land is the center piece of the illuvium economy, it generates all of the fuel and elements that power the main game''

IIP 39 well not anymore LOL

[hearty cradle]

caught in 4K

[radiant sky]

Yea that Video is also the reason why most buyers thought Land will generate all fuel, which will be approximately 5% of the total ingame revenue.
And fuel will be needed in all Games, whereas it Looks Like its not needed at all for arena

[upbeat drift]

What??

They changed the importance of lands??

[mortal smelt]

hurts me to watch this rn

[upbeat drift]

So land is not the only source of fuel anymore??

[jovial haven]

What changed?

I wanted to buy more land, now not so sure if its worth if it really doesn't generate most of the fuel etc.

[broken roost]

oh please guys listen to minute 9 of the same video

its a gem

kieran ''again this is not a situation where someone can purchase it from a random pool or whatever, it is only generated though owning illuvium land''

[hearty cradle]

mistakes were made in a wallet i control

[broken roost]

basicly land is not the only source of fuel anymore, DAO is free to mint it out of thin air

[upbeat drift]

Why???

[broken roost]

why what?

[mortal smelt]

Some of you guys are just throwing things out there without due dilligence. js

[broken roost]

alright here it goes. So once the fuel price hits the roof, DAO will be able to mint fuel and sell it disregarding how much the landowners have minted. A roof that is not mentioned and will be capped by themselves

[mortal smelt]

there are a bunch of content creators who touched on this topic, maybe watch a couple of videos and if you have any further questions come back and ask.

[upbeat drift]

Yeah,i don t like that approach

I mean,we as land owners loose our big leverage

The valUe of our land

So the price is capped,if demand is bigger,they will sell that fuel

[broken roost]

yup

[broken roost]

here you go

[timid basin]

You don’t lose any value

Revenue raised once rail is hit is also split so 5% is still going to land owners

[upbeat drift]

So our profit has a max cap but now a low cap

[timid basin]

And the rail should not be hit often at all (and if it is hit then it tells the DAO that land needs to produce more fuel and they turn up the production of fuel)

[radiant sky]

😂

[broken roost]

how?

i mean how are we getting that extra revenue back?

[timid basin]

Lets say you make 100 fuel a month

But people out there are buying 1000 fuel a month, they will adjust the supply of fuel so that landowners produce more to meet demand

[radiant sky]

Didn't you say you want the rail at a reasonable price lvl for the whole playerbase?

[broken roost]

but thats not what it says

it doesn't say land will produce more, it says it will be minted from an unlimited pool

[timid basin]

If the rail is hit

Then the money the DAO makes (in ETH) 5% of that excess revenue is distributed to land owners based on the amount of fuel they have sold in the last 7 days average

[broken roost]

oh thats true

have i been complaining nonsense for 2 hours now?

im still mad it hast been over a year and im not getting anything out of it

but i didnt read that part

good to hear we get that extra %

[timid basin]

It will be minted from an unlimited pool so that price does not go above rail yes

But then this will be taken into account and used to inform them whether they need to increase the production of fuel so that we’re not hitting the price roof

[timid basin]

Of course

5% of ALL Fuel goes to LandOwners

[long tendon]

I'd like to shed some light why it's important to have the (temporary) solution of having a ceiling where the dao can print fuel. It boils down to the primary reason that there's a real possibility that all lands won't be able to produce enough fuel to players in overworld. And without the ceiling plus scarcity fuel prices will sky rocket and price out our players. And that would mean less income for the dao and the landowners.

So what can we do to address scarcity? Do we increase land output until lands are able to adequately supply players? But what happens when we oversupply because of said adjustment? Do we then have to keep adjusting? That seems to be a worse solution where the team has to keep changing values based on demand.

The current ceiling shares 5% to all landowners which will be on top of all the fuel you sell while still making sure our overworld players have enough fuel to play whenever they want.

[radiant sky]

You mean sell Lands to increase the production?

[timid basin]

Well Said

[mortal smelt]

can the adjustment be based on the selling activity of the land owners?

[radiant sky]

How are Lands not able to produce enough fuel with manual adjustements and automated System?
Don't you think skyrocket of fuel price is impossible because people simply don't buy fuel if it gets too expensive for them?

[timid basin]

So, once enough time had passed and most plots are properly developed for Fuel production etc.

At this point (2-3 months in approx) its too soon to start selling new land plots, but if were still hitting the top rail then we would increase the fuel production of the land plots that currently exist (e.g. a new building that increases production of everything by 1.5x)

New plots will eventually come in also, and we very much intend for them to be sold in small batches more regularly to have the dilution of land be as gradual as possible (so if theres a massive change in demand, we would do a massive land sale in response, we would instead change the rate of production of current land)

Many things may change, but this is current overview

[timid basin]

If at launch people havent fully developed their plots (as that takes months) but there are loads of people wanting to get in and play the game, then there wont be enough fuel for everyone to play the game at a reasonable price

Therefore the need for an upper rail (short term at least)

[mortal smelt]

this is the crux of the situation with launching everything at once

[timid basin]

We are aiming to have IZ come out up to a month before everything else

[mortal smelt]

this is news to me, is it confirmed?

[radiant sky]

Almost no plots are selling fuel after 2-3 months, so i can See why you wana have a rail there.
And i also can See why the earliest timepoint of selling Land will be after 4 months, because the Situation KS still not changed mich, and t1/2 most likely still need all the fuel to build up their Base.

[radiant sky]

Not yet

[timid basin]

But a month is still not enough to fully develop a plot

[long tendon]

Honestly, the team will be the one making the adjustments and they have all the data to be able to base it properly. At the same time it is not ideal for fuel production to always be adjusted. Land owners won't be able to properly forecast if production levels are being adjusted up and down at whim.

[timid basin]

What specifically?

[mortal smelt]

True

[radiant sky]

How Long for fully developping the different Tiers IS the councils thinking?

[mortal smelt]

What you just said

About IZ coming out a month before anything

[timid basin]

The 4 month thing is a strict minimum, we expect it to be far later (first sale of more land)

[long tendon]

Its a bad gaming experience if we're always adjusting production level. Imagine when you as a landowner is able to forecast your fuel production output then the team unilaterally lowers the production. And in the near future adjusts it again as our players go parabolic.

That's not a game I'd be happy to keep on playing tbh

[radiant sky]

Thats how it will work, right? Either diluting of land, adjusting of output or use the rail to make it a fixed price.

[mortal smelt]

I mean this is what is happening right now isn’t it?

[analog inlet]

@long tendon can you please clarifty what you mean by this please 5% to all landowners which will be on top of all the fuel you sell while - my undertand is the %5 comes from swaping the fuels to the pool

[timid basin]

Yeah its confirmed that we are aiming for IZ to begin 4 weeks prior to Open Beta

Although it may end up being less or at the same time as Open Beta (a lot of moving parts)

[mortal smelt]

This is totally different from your initial statement, not nitpicking but kind of throws people off

[timid basin]

Basically

[radiant sky]

Maybe you wana read up in iip-39

[timid basin]

My initial statement was “We are aiming to have IZ come out up to a month before everything else”

And we are aiming for that…

[long tendon]

So difference of dao selling more land is 1) we all knew there's 100k lands. More lands will be sold in the future. 2) we would know in advance when dao will sell.

With the ceiling you don't need to adjust down or up. It's constant (for the time being). When you introduce more lands it just lessens purchases from ceiling as more land owners sell below ceiling.

[mortal smelt]

You went from aiming for a month, to maybe all launching at once. It is not the same unless I’m reading English wrong.

And I just asked if it was confirmed that was all

[long tendon]

Yeah sure.

So the idea is you sell your own fuel you produce. That follows the old setup.

But since ceiling fuel is printed by dao 100% what the proposal does is just distributes 5% to all land owners (not sure what's the proportionate ratio as there's different tiers)

In essence land owners sell their own fuel and gets a proportionate share from dao produces fuel.

[timid basin]

We are Aiming for a month before launch
but even though were aiming for a month, it might have to be less than a month or even at the same time as everything else

We aim for a month
We might not achieve a month

[timid basin]

Yh totally, just trying to be as clear and as helpful as possible 😊✨

[radiant sky]

I take it more or less as a yes 🙃

[mortal smelt]

I’ll respect that

[analog inlet]

So they double dip now ? i have to read up on this specifically but if $100 fuel get s "sold " do the stakers still get $95 and the Land owners $5?

[radiant sky]

I thought it is depending on the Lands fuel sales, and not on their Tiers?

[long tendon]

Tbh, it's not up to the council. The constraints are with the team if they're able to launch iz before the other games. We placed a preference to allow lands to get a head start in producing fuel.

[long tendon]

It's not necessarily double dip. Land owners are getting the promised 5% it's just that they're not getting it from fuel they produced.

[mortal smelt]

It would help, and I do understand the constraints of trying to launch everything is a massive undertaking dev wise.

[analog inlet]

but is the example provided still correct?

[long tendon]

The fuel sold by the dao (ceiling) isn't attributed to any land owner right? So I presume it would be unfair if it's divided based on number of lands rather than proportionate by tier. This means someone with 10 t1s would get more from the 5% share than someone who owns 1 t4. Again this is just my understanding not set in stone yet but I think this is more fair.

[timid basin]

Yes the split is still 95/5

Changes nothing, just if the price hits the rail there will be fuel sold by the DAO thats more than what land owners have produced, all we’re doing is giving landowners their fair share 5% of that is all

[long tendon]

Yes it's still the same. 95 still goes to stakers (revdis) that doesn't change

[radiant sky]

If thats true, why would anyone produce fuel on their Land and not just Make blueprints, let fuel hit the ceiling and still get 5% of the fuel sales

[analog inlet]

see not every interaction is dramaitc LOL

[long tendon]

Correct. It's a tough decision. We don't want to delay the other gams just to allow land that head start. Thus, ceiling is the interim solution.

[analog inlet]

thanks vet

[long tendon]

Hahaha fair, fair! It's a refreshing change 😌

[timid basin]

Since its not just distributed equally among landowners, but is distributed based on how much fuel u sold in the last week

If everyone just did blueprints and sold no fuel and 1 person was the only one making and selling fuel, that person would get all the 5% revenue for themselves LOL

[long tendon]

Cause the fuel you produce is on top of your proportionate share from the fuel sold by dao

[timid basin]

So even if its hitting the rail u very much still need to be making and selling fuel

[mortal smelt]

Are there any plans for backstops in case it gets out of control? And will it have to pass IIP to implement a fix for a major problem?

[radiant sky]

So i was right.
Cheers

[timid basin]

You were literally wrong

[radiant sky]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

Was i?

[timid basin]

Oh, well there u were right

🤣

[long tendon]

Define a major problem. Cause if it's a technical one. The team can do that or propose something if it fundamentally changes the game and/or proposals that was passed.

[mortal smelt]

Ok just worried if a major issue takes place and the way IIPs have been done it might cause a bottleneck.

[timid basin]

The backstop really is the upper rail already

[mortal smelt]

I figured that

[timid basin]

If there are any major issues that require fast action, then fast action will be taken, worry not

[mortal smelt]

That is good to hear

[long tendon]

Yes and if it's an emergency there's a process that bypasses the proposal and imc can vote on it asap

[mortal smelt]

Cool I’m relieved

Thank you guys for the feedback in the midst of everything

[timid basin]

[long tendon]

Yw. I wanted to reply sooner but had birthday parties this weekend lol.

I'd like to take this time to ask, iip 39 was passed some time ago but were only discussing it in detail again now. I know this was triggered cause of the denial of the battle board proposal.

So the question is what exactly is the issue so we can look into this. I feel we're not really addressing the concerns at it's heart.

[mortal smelt]

No hard feelings everyone, the passion is just too great.

[timid basin]

Typed “passion” to search for an appropriate GIF to respond with 🤣

Lets just say… not what I was looking for 😅

[radiant sky]

Not really wasn't triggered by the denial of the battleboard, it's more of the Overall sentiment and changes has been done

Iip-39 was just a Big Part of it i guess.
But so was the delay Frustration.
I feel battleboard had less to no impact on the discussions the last days

[long tendon]

Basically just spilled over? So there's still that problem that we haven't addressed the whole issue. This will happen again in the future especially now that open beta is pushed back to q1 2024.

[radiant sky]

Sounds very nice, but i guess most are fed up with the promises in the future and just wana See "actions".
Also some issues people See are no issues for the Team, so i guess it won't be looked into everything 🙂

[mortal smelt]

I think we should all just hug it out

There is no response so I think it is fair we shouldn’t assume how or what people are feeling without being here to defend themselves.

I understand emotion is high but let’s be civil

[long tendon]

I totally understand this and perhaps there just a need for the council to communicate more in helping the community understand decisions made both by team and council on things.

[radiant sky]

No i think you doing pretty good job lately, AT least some councils

[mortal mural]

Has someone made estimations on how much fuel can different tier produce if all lands were equally maxing fuel production. That way I think I can compare my ilv revdis vs the land roi

[radiant sky]

yes there where numbers floating arround, but stuff gets changed for open beta... so no clue how it will turn out.

[mortal mural]

I wanted know if someone else had t2, t3 and t4 max out for fuel as @tall crypt did with t1

[radiant sky]

I doubt that

[mortal mural]

Of course we don’t know for sure, but I wanted to made estimations given all this current information

I don’t know where to find info on max out buildings

[mortal mural]

Thx!

[timid basin]

Well said

[bitter phoenix]

From my point of view one thing that could help with sentiment now is for some clearer details around how land will actually work for in pb3. I know we don’t have fuel prices ect but maybe if the team were to release more details around the how the goals will work. Remind the community how skins will be crafted, and what consumables will be needed. If there has been any discussion on a way in which we can potentially earn exclusive items in the future. It would be helpful if we had a better understanding of exactly why sentiment with land owners is low. It goes far deeper than just “I bought land and the price has dropped, give me free stuff to compensate “.

[rotund reef]

Was that really the main reason people were campaigning for free stuff?

[true sequoia]

no one likes to feel they were mislead...beyond has consistently fixed problems and misperceptions. I have not seen the same commitment from zero. A year in and what is there to show for it? A game that isn't fun (unless you like to weed) and what appears to be decreasing benefits to owning the land, and further delays and lack of clarity on what those decreasing benfits will be. Remember when everyone was talking about how profitable land will be? Honestly I'd settle for fun with some incentive of some kind in the very near future, otherwise there is other options, including Mavia., a project promoted by council members.

[bitter phoenix]

No I don’t believe that is the case

[high hinge]

Did they cancel the reset of land at launch?

[cyan bone]

No there will be a progress wipe for Open Beta

Vetemor is saying that there may be a lack of Fuel Supply to Overworld initially as Land Owners improve their production output and optimize their Land initially

[high hinge]

Sounds like a big F -You to those who supported this project threw buying NFT Land. So many ways to solve these simple problems. At launch there should be butt loads of free fuel to promote new players. After that if the price goes up then people will work their land harder because of simple capitalistic incentive. Ever game needs balancing so to think the that the ratio will be perfect from day one is naive at best. Once the correct fuel production ratios are found and it becomes apparent that not enough fuel is being produced then simply offer new NFT land to create balance. So much potential, Illuvium has most of the fundamental aspects but such a waste. Anyone know of any other game projects that have started up and have potential. This game is starting to feel like another Lands of Dalarnia

[cyan bone]

What?

If/when the top barrier is hit in Overworld, Land Owners will receive their 5% of those sales.

Yes balancing will absolutely be required, nobodies naive enough to say otherwise.

The council has introduced a range of mechanisms to manage supply and demand, including micro-land sales if need be.

There isn't a single person wanting Land Owners to have a bad experience, we have finite resources and the resources are focused on launching the core product that will allow those Land Owners to improve their land, and sell their fuel.

[rotund reef]

Percentage-wise, I wonder how many people on here think the entire game is going crash and burn because of things that aren't actually happening, or aren't going to happen once the game releases.

[bitter phoenix]

I think the entire economy side and balancing side of things is really complex and multifaceted. Even people who are trying to follow along may not really have a gasp of how thins can and will work in the future. The systems will have to be dynamic and will take time to find an equilibrium.

[rotund reef]

100% And sometimes there's no way of knowing those levels until you've seen it all play out in real time. If people want to be fragile and dump because of stuff like this, I'll happily be there to scoop it up.

[bitter phoenix]

I agree. A lot of things won’t be able to be predicted and will need to be fully functional to see how it all plays out. I’m still relaxed about my land investment. It’s way too early for me to decide that it won’t be a good investment. I hold quite a few plots and will be managing more so I’m still all in and will be for quite some time to come. All of this stuff will take time to play out and that’s ok. Sentiment and communication could be a little better but we all can help out there I think

[vivid cipher]

Read back part 2 starts here. (Just a note for myself)

Lol I just realized there’s a much better way to save my spot. Sorry.

[bitter phoenix]

Now you’ve made me go way way back. Ugh

[cerulean steppe]

Let's say Vetemor is right and there will be a lack of fuel supply from Land Owners initially and the DAO has to fill that void via the upper rail:

Then my land won't get the full 5% from the DAO fuel sale either, because my land can not produce at max potential during these initial hype Overworld weeks.

Because this is also true according to Vetemor:

So even if its hitting the rail u very much still need to be making and selling fuel

Which means that in the beginning of Overworld launch land owners won't be able to get their fair share of fuel earnings, after waiting for years sitting on useless illiquid NFTs with no voting rights.

And when our lands are fully developed, the initial Overworld hype is over.

Awesome.

[cyan bone]

There are many ways this could be done, what if the Land Owners 5% from Upper Rail sales are distributed equally based on tier of the land held in the wallets?

What if we release Zero several weeks ahead of Open Beta?

You're choosing to get angry, which is your right - sure, based on assumptions and speculation

It's in the teams best interests to ensure we maximize profits for you, the Land Owners

[radiant sky]

Would be Bad imo, you would distribute dead wallets the Same amount as not already active Players, and the Players clicking their Asses Off.

[cyan bone]

Good point

[long tendon]

I was confused there for a sec lol 😄

[bitter phoenix]

There has to be inventive to play.

[bitter phoenix]

I am completely confused

[radiant sky]

well there is... you can earn money after years.
I just would push for a fast realease of IZ for opben beta. Why wait if you want to release it anyways upfront.
So even t1 and t2 could ramp up fuel production until public beta of overworld.
Depending on how early IZ could go in open beta you would have already a pretty stable supply and could do changes in production way more efficient, than in a market where at the start nobody sells fuel and after 2 months the first start selling fuel and after 3-4 months the broad mass starts selling.

[mortal smelt]

What happens to the fuel when it is spent? Is it burned?

[radiant sky]

i guess there will be a burner wallet. But afaik it hasn't been shared yet

[bitter phoenix]

Is fuel erc20

The more I think I know the more I realise I know nothing. Lol

[radiant sky]

i don't think so. The tokens have been discussed and at that time there where tokens more suitable for fuel.
But i can't remember tbh. headache af brain is mudd 😄

[bitter phoenix]

Oh sorry to hear that. Big glass of water and some SLEEP might help. Lol

[radiant sky]

yea, drank 1.5L last hour and now swapped to tea... can't sleep since hours, and now it's anyways too late 😄

[radiant sky]

#1142665082984202240 message

looks like they are erc-20 tokens

[bitter phoenix]

Panadol

[cyan bone]

That's correct ERC20

[bitter phoenix]

Your burning 🔥 the candle at both ends

[radiant sky]

have the next lvl stage, but no more pills left. and its 3:20 am, can't go buy them anywhere

[cerulean steppe]

The reason why I am angry is not the team or you.

It is all about IIP-39.

Council members - land owners can not even vote for or against - decided to come up with an IIP that greatly affects land holders.

And even worse it suddenly popped up and they made it look like it is an IIP from the community.

While the land owner community and the authors of IIP-39 know nothing about fuel economics, order book mechanics, IZ vs. OW release schedules, haven't seen any leaks of IL:Z in months etc. and land owners weren't even consulted by the authors.

I feel so helpless in this situation. And then I see council members laugh at the concerns of land holders. I am just worried that land owners will loose out against ILV Stakers.

I don't want to be greedy, just want my fair share.

For exactly that reason I proposed that the upper rail would follow a reverse auction style curve instead of being set by councils and the team.

This would IMO be a fair solution. Because land was sold in a reverse auction, we should also sell fuel in a reverse auction and not let it be decided by personal interests or "market research".

In this model the fuel upper rail would start high (doesn't have to be extreme though) and come down automatically over time.

This would also be a lot more fun IMO and would add to the excitement.

But most importatntly it would ensure a fair price discovery.

Does this help you understand why I am angry?

[paper lance]

lol. i have experienced that in almost all big projects. sudden changes that deviates from initial proposals and reasons why you bought in. they just don't care.

[cyan bone]

I'll dig into the IIP further.

You have every right to feel angry, and I do understand and empathize with everyone who's been waiting for us to deliver.

I feel the same way, we all do - we're tired, but we're passionate and keen to knock it out of the park and get the best result for Land Owners .

[paper lance]

no wonder so called web 3 games have dead/almost no player base.

[cyan bone]

You couldn't be more wrong.

[cerulean steppe]

Nick, I trust you and the team. Please help us create a fair and sustainable economy and great games.

[cyan bone]

We are running extremely tight sprint planning sessions ensuring everyones priorities are aligned with the business and critical path.

Between meetings I'm here (many of the team are too) because this is something we're putting our heart and soul into.

[radiant sky]

what do you think about the "value-weights" used to calculate fuel outputs of different tiers?

just curious 🙃

[mortal mural]

Did you prefer the free market idea?

[cyan bone]

Where can I read more about this sorry? I've just had a quick look but couldn't find what you're referring to

[radiant sky]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

I think that was the last time it has been discussed
there was never specific info about how they weight what.
As far as i could interpret all the discussions, the value of t1:t4 (1:40) is dependent on different factors, like build up speed of the base, megacities, fuel output etc.

[vivid cipher]

Yeah I realized too late how confusing that would be and that I could have just copied and BOokMaRkeD the link to the post I needed to continue from.

But I did not actually ping you with that reply did I? I tried not to ping you.

[vivid cipher]

The numbers are based on the percentages shared in the land sale IIP right?

[radiant sky]

what numbers you are reffering to?

the value proportion of t1:t4 being 1:40?
if so, yes.
Based on the ratios of starting price of the dutch auction

[vivid cipher]

I mean the fuel production percentages.

[radiant sky]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[vivid cipher]

The price difference per tier was almost certainly also considering the rarity factor.

[radiant sky]

there were different factors, what factors exactly and how they got weighted was never shared.... just examples.
rarity for example doesn't make sense to me at all in an asset like land.
in pfp's or illuvials or ores or plants etc. it would make totally sense, but in land i don't see that.

nobody calculates in rarity in value if they sell land now, at least nobody i talked too.
it's simply layout, distribution of the sites, location and of course tier lvl (prod boni). In future the state of how well the plot is built out i guess will be valued too.

[long tendon]

yeah it didnt ping me. Its actually pretty cool which is why I got confused I didnt get a ping hahaha

[mortal mural]

Where o can read more about this? Is there a proposal? Why would team want to nerf t4?

[radiant sky]

according to the team t4 is not nerfed 😄
There were different talks about it here in channel, and some talked about it in #1020759212172775464 .
There was no IIP/ICCP yet.

[vivid cipher]

Sure. Not now. The idea that was discussed by most of us prior to land sale was the idea that one day, in a long time, the demand to be the owner of one of the few t4 lands that exist could be significant. A status symbol. But definitely that’s pure speculation. And not applicable to our current situation.

[radiant sky]

i don't think so, wrong asset functionality and the ratios stay the same in future landsales, so time won't really make a difference i guess.. but sure you could be right.
And the other thing i actually didn't like in the discussions is that values get calculated in which are as you said far far in the future. You can always change the ratios if big things happen for high tiers.

[bitter phoenix]

Thank you for responding as much as you do. You are always calm cool and helpful despite the often heated and critical criticism of the team and the project. I truly appreciate you.

[vivid cipher]

Do you have that chart with the max fuel production numbers? Very good data. I’d like to save it.

[radiant sky]

this one?
Did it by myself long time ago, so could have errors 😄
i can double check in the evening if you want.

[vivid cipher]

I made up this chart (you may have seen it before) just using the percentage boosts from the land sale. I really don’t see how the lower tier lands will be able to significantly produce more fuel from their convertors than higher tier lands will be able to. Everyone will have convertors.

The top half is the part that has what I think is the most important info. What I call “virtual sites”.

[radiant sky]

that's exactly the thing, converter passive production and earnings in conversion wasn't a thing at the time of landsale if i remember right.
It was more like converters can just convert and it will cost a little fee and time.
Now with converters having passive production and no fee to pay, it messed up the whole value proportions.

the info known and shared at that time wer that a t4 : t1 have 36:1 fuel output, based on the sites and the production bonuses

[radiant sky]

yea, i remember seeing that tables

[vivid cipher]

I think I’m with you…

everyone gets convertors. BUT the increase in production source count increases the fuel production exponentially when the bonus is applied.

[bitter phoenix]

So does the t4 production boost apply to the converters or just the fuel sites?

[radiant sky]

ma brain doesn't really work atm 😄
i don't know where you going, and isn't it rather linear than exponential?

[radiant sky]

both

[bitter phoenix]

Oh I did not know that

[vivid cipher]

Could be. I’m not braining right now either. Lol

[bitter phoenix]

Gee that changes quite a bit how t4 will be set up. Does that mean that the boost for a mega city with a t4 wil apply to all plots in the city

[radiant sky]

yes

[bitter phoenix]

Holy smokes. I’m a happy girl now

[radiant sky]

but will be reworked, idk how it will turn out... atm it is rather questioanble being a boost at all 😄

the landmark bonus i mean

[bitter phoenix]

If land mark bonus applies across all plots and you have everything full of passive converters then that’s huge isn’t it

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/absolutely-massive-faisal-khan-huge-enormous-gigantic-gif-25666367

[bitter phoenix]

If admin buildings are only one per mega city then that’s a lot more space for converters

[radiant sky]

landmark bonus is atm +25% efficiency if you push it that far with powerstations.
so if you spam 50% efficiency converters you won't profit from the land mark boost.

[bitter phoenix]

Nope lost me.

Sorry technical stuff not my strong suit

Explain to 5 yr old then I might follow

[radiant sky]

landmarks gives you the possiblity to push efficency further than 150% up to 175%.
if you don't push your buildings over 150% efficency you basically don't use your landmark.

[mortal mural]

Removing passive from converters would be a huge loss? Or maybe adding a cost to the passive? Maybe not being a passive anymore

[bitter phoenix]

Actually go to bed Dr Spoon and explain when your head won’t explode to try to make me understand. Fraggy almost blew a gasket trying to teach me something last week

[radiant sky]

no sleep... shower soon and then go to my dad, helping lift tables and stuff to make a little home workshop for wood and metal working 🙂

[bitter phoenix]

Good son. Ask for Panadol first

[vivid cipher]

It would be a terrible loss for the lower tiers.

[radiant sky]

haha i will 🙂

[bitter phoenix]

Yes that would be very bad.

[mortal mural]

But why? Didn’t we all buy lands based on the fuel production ratios?

[radiant sky]

yea, won't happen anyways. they implemented it to boost the low tiers

even tho i would root for it 😄

[bitter phoenix]

Please don’t

[broken roost]

i'd love to hear more about this, im pretty sure most land owners feel the same way

[vivid cipher]

But not with information about how the game requires you to have each type of fuel in order to build stuff at each stage.

[mortal mural]

Doesn’t the whole converter passive mess up the fuel economy?

[vivid cipher]

It makes to game playable. Otherwise it’s broken.

[bitter phoenix]

Not really because we don’t know how many units it will cost to travel

[radiant sky]

don't get me wrong, i own more low tier than high tiers, but the ratios as they are now are totally wrong.
Basically increasing fuel and build up speed for low tiers, because high tier have a landmark to spread for mc's and possible future features seems just very wrong to me.

[bitter phoenix]

I have a feeling I will be picking your brains a lot in the next few months.

[vivid cipher]

I’ll need to run the convertor numbers. But I think T4s will still be 40x more productive than t1.
I’ll do that tomorrow though.

(All signs point to me being wrong)

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/i-will-not-let-down-cloud-final-fantasy-vii-gif-18121909

[mortal mural]

Can we try an array of options before open beta? Like 1- take efficiency away from passive (I think this one hurts t4 even more my brain is also mush at this hour) 2- make passive from converter take longer? 3- give passive a cost somehow, maybe elemental?

[radiant sky]

different people including team already did it... was mostly arround 12:1 (t4:t1) if it comes to rare fuel output possible. But i'm very curious in your numbers 🙂

[bitter phoenix]

Your a star

[vivid cipher]

My Theoretical numbers mean nothing. In game numbers are best.

[radiant sky]

you could build it up on Illuvitect
but since stuff changes anyways i'm not really motivated in pushing any calculations based on stuff right now 🙂

paths for example will also face a massive rework according to julien, so layouts could change massively aswell.

[mortal mural]

Is adjusting tiers boosts accordingly to match land sale production estimations has been discussed?

[bitter phoenix]

Shouldn’t + 25% apply to any stage? Ie if a converter is working at 50% then it would be 75%

[radiant sky]

i don't think so

[vivid cipher]

Yeah everything can change for balance.

[radiant sky]

no you need to push it with powerstations

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-really-o-rly-owl-gif-7905924

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/snoop-dogg-yes-yes-yes-oh-fo-sho-for-sure-nods-gif-12018369

[vivid cipher]

Ani writing a good book

Can’t wait for it to drop

[mortal mural]

I thought this was the case too, that I would need less power station to max efficiency.

[bitter phoenix]

So by building power station you would miss out on more converters so is it worth it

[radiant sky]

thats why it's questionable to see it as a bonus right now. its 8-12 squares for getting the landmark bonus on your buildings. multiply that with x to have it on mulitple locations on your plot.

[mortal mural]

Ani writing a book?

[icy thicket]

50+ Minimum 😉

[bitter phoenix]

I can’t wait to read it then watch 100 questions flow in

[vivid cipher]

He’s been “typing” in this channel for 10 minutes.

[bitter phoenix]

11.5

[mortal mural]

Sry I don’t do good with irony lol. My wife says I got some autism traits .

[icy thicket]

I have been waiting to see it before i sign off my computer for the evening 😉

[bitter phoenix]

So 50power stations to get 175%

[radiant sky]

thought he's talking about the squares 😄

[icy thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/im-exaggerating-for-effect-moira-rose-moira-catherine-ohara-schitts-creek-gif-20859220

[bitter phoenix]

Omfg No wonder your head hurts

[vivid cipher]

We are talking number here. We made charts!

[bitter phoenix]

Ani stopped typing

Oh no he’s still here

13.4 min

[high hinge]

ERC20? Fuel is something that will be used a lot? I sure hope Devs looked into Cloud, becuase transactions are free. Having to pay a network fee to a block chain to play to the game is a huge barrier for new players. Land NFTs and things that one would only transfer rarely is different and could actually benefit from a network fee. But basic game mechanics are best free.

[vivid cipher]

IMX is free

[lethal wyvern]

Immutable X - Layer 2

Illuvium utilizes Immutable X as its layer 2 solution, providing cost-effective transactions. This means that minting and trading Illuvials will be free of network gas fees, while only transferring funds between the Ethereum Mainnet and Immutable X will incur gas fees. By reducing the cost of transactions, players can maximize their potential gains.

[rotund reef]

Ani is currently typing on an old Nokia 6310, be patient with him.

[bitter phoenix]

One finger typed

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/twin-peaks-old-people-typing-one-finger-typing-technology-out-of-touch-gif-9186182

[bitter phoenix]

Now you guys are distracting him

[icy thicket]

More appropriate 😉

https://tenor.com/view/glass-case-emotion-emotional-im-in-a-glass-case-of-emotion-gif-10021355

[radiant sky]

it's probably anis cat walking on the keyboard

[bitter phoenix]

Lol

[marsh sage]

Hey mate. I’ve followed your feedback both in the governance chat channel and now here as well. Your comment on landowners not getting their 5% has me convinced that maybe we weren’t clear enough in the IIP as you aren’t understanding the mechanics that were passed in IIP-39 regarding the guardrail. I’m happy to hop on a call or chat here directly if you’d like to talk through this point. I can understand why you’d be concerned if you believe that to be true l, but any IIP that changed the 5% amount to be a lower percentage of total fuel sales would have been DOA in strategy sub-council. The mechanic that has been passed ensures that only those that are playing Zero receive 5% of fuel sales at the guardrail while land plots are being built up by Zero players.

I don’t think it’s fair to state that the councils that have discussed this have 1) Not taken team or community feedback into account - Literally we spent the first two months of this epoch discussing this proposal every single week with the team and then the next month getting as much feedback from the community as we could, especially landowners. 2) “The authors of this IIP know nothing about fuel economics, order book mechanics, IZ vs OW, etc.” - I don’t believe this is true but I’d ask you to hop on a call with me and let’s discuss the IIP for an hour. If you still feel this is the case after then I would encourage you to request a VONC to remove me as I should not be in my current position. (This is the case for me specifically as, while there was much feedback and support from many council, community, and team members, I am the primary drafter of IIP-39.)

[radiant sky]

5% of fuel sales? Did it change?
was 5% of ingame revenue in old IIP if i remember right.

[bitter phoenix]

I do not believe anyone here would agree with a vote of no confidence in you. Period.

[radiant sky]

https://tenor.com/view/you-sure-about-that-i-think-you-should-leave-with-tim-robinson-are-you-absolutely-certain-are-you-positive-can-you-verify-that-gif-10549268703103241949

[marsh sage]

It’s always excluded sILV2 sales, which is probably a semantical discussion if you want to include those as ‘in-game revenue’ or not. Stating fuel sales, which are used for the subset of in-game revenue not counting sILV2 seems to me (and in our council discussions) to be clearer.

[bitter phoenix]

Yeh pretty sure.

[radiant sky]

what about IZ- Buyable builders, speed up tokens etc.?

possible future ingame stuff in arena and ow?

[bitter phoenix]

And in game building cosmetics

[broken roost]

thats a big ''etc''
i don't think stating fuel sales was clearer

[radiant sky]

how could i forget them 😬

[bitter phoenix]

I got you bro

May be a strange question but what happens to residual losses from the market place if you want to convert fuels and take say a 10% loss to do it quickly?

[vivid cipher]

What do you mean by residual loss?

[bitter phoenix]

If I have 1k crypton and exchange for 900 Solon there is a loss in the system. Where does it go?

Is the market place actually between players or the balancer pool

[marsh sage]

This IIP that we’re discussing (39) isn’t a change to any structures that have been discussed in this regard before (I.e. regarding what the team has intended for fuel to be used for). The guardrail section is exclusively talking about how to handle the fuel sales as that’s the only place that guardrail mechanic is relevant (price and distribution of fuel and fuel revenue). The concern I am trying to address is Illuvithor’s comment that Zero holders are not getting 5% revenue sharing from the fuel sales at the top guardrail. If this is a belief shared by any landholders we have an enormous breakdown in our communication of this IIP.

[vivid cipher]

I see. The in game marketplace will be between players in game and not on chain. The tokens won’t be minted until removed from #🎮〕illuvium-zero

At least that’s my understanding (and I’m never wrong )

At the moment the in game marketplace is just pretend.

[radiant sky]

na, clear to me.
But a lot got it wrong, isn't a fault by communicator side, rather a fail in reader side i guess. 👍

But anyhow, you can get info of it got changed to only fuel insteat of ingame revenue? @marsh sage

[marsh sage]

I don’t want to fault anyone for reading it wrong - my goal is just to help clarify so people don’t feel like we’re trying to change the core value prop of land. It’s still intended to work the same, just with better, more robust mechanics and tactics behind it (while also considering the actual build-up of land and the Overworld at game launch)

[radiant sky]

i still doubt that, but curious on the next iccp with numbers in it to see how it really turns out 🙂

[bitter phoenix]

The system and the language are difficult and complex for people who aren’t technical and haven’t been following closely. Also if English is a second language this may be even more challenging. For me personally I’m am finding it all difficult to apply the concept to the real world applications. We may need a version of the discussion to be made quite simple even if it misses some of the finer details.

[radiant sky]

since you are the force behind that iip, you wana share how you calculated the 4 months lock for landsales? @marsh sage

[marsh sage]

Yes, this is exactly my experience too. We have to be as clear as possible as our project is fairly complex and people who are non-native English speakers should be assisted to make it as approachable as possible

[vivid cipher]

There have been a lot of assumptions in here that are inaccurate. Addressing some of those incorrect assumptions has been fairly difficult. But it seems things are cooling.

[this is feels far more condescending than I intended, I get stuff wrong and piss people off far more often than I’d like. Basically I think it’s a good time to find clarity.]

[bitter phoenix]

Once there is more clarity on the actual system that is likely to be used a town hall type chat just on land would be good. Also having some simple examples and graphics maybe useful. This doesn’t have to happen pre launch necessarily but would help address a lot of the misunderstanding

[mortal mural]

Just to get it right. Any fuel amount not provided by land owners will be minted to meet market demands, and the 5% of that amount (not provided by land owners) will still be distributed to land owners depending on percentage fuel selling for each land. That’s what I understood from it.

[bitter phoenix]

I don’t believe that most landowners are super technical

[rotund reef]

Emotion and intellect are inversely correlated. When some of these people get all in their feels, it's a lot easier to make incorrect assumptions.

[bitter phoenix]

And some just like a good argument

[radiant sky]

I'm really looking forward to a townhall before launch, Lot of Stuff not clear, or not liked of landholders. Would be nice to have one

[rotund reef]

I'd rather just call them all soft. Don't ruin my fantasy.

[bitter phoenix]

A clearer picture needs to be conveyed first so that the questions can be more considered and thought out. Too many unknowns atm

[marsh sage]

Yes. Happy to do so as well mate. We had numerous discussions on this topic and each council member had their own opinions on exactly how to handle this. For me, it boiled down to the following: There will be roughly 3 months for relatively active land plots (namely T1s) to reach a fairly steady state production process. We need a minimum of a month or two after that point to ensure the ecosystem is finding market equilibrium. We should be giving ‘first shot’ at fuel sales at launch to existing land owners, not quickly minting out new land. Four months for me is an absolute minimum time I am comfortable for us to have any confidence that we know how much new land could be sustained by player demand. I expect it will be longer (in one draft I had the terminology ’minimum 4 months and target of 6 months’). This number gives us flexibility if we have a massively successful launch and by month 4 or 5, the number of Illuvium players has grown into hundreds of thousands and we are confident we have end-game staying power in Overworld and Arena.

[mortal mural]

I wanna know if we can get the feedbacks done by you and the rollingone

[quiet aurora]

I just think there is a lot of assumptions and new information regarding land and fuel. I think there should be an ama or official video done by illuvium that sets everything straight. What exactly is considered in game revenue (list everything)? How does fuel work? Skins aren't exclusive, but why are they rare and how will illuvium keep value in the skins that land holders can create?

[radiant sky]

3 months for t1? o.O
Did average buys of speed up tokens and multiple builders got calculated in, or just the standard build up time of buildings based on time and fuel needs?
Haven't actually calculated, but i dont see me selling fuel after 3 months with a t1. Maybe my feeling is deceiving me.

You already have a ballpark on how many DAU Illuvium needs in order to have sold all land?

[radiant sky]

what feedbacks?

[radiant sky]

and and and... 😄

[mortal mural]

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1117518574479736842

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1116402720258142238

[radiant sky]

i'm sorry ser, i don't understand the question 😅

[marsh sage]

This is standard buikd times. Just to be clear, from my work with several guilds and groups developing land plots (as well as my own playtesting ) three months is if someone is playing daily but not hourly for someone to be able to sell a reasonable amount of their fuel into the market. If someone is going blueprint heavy, they will probably never be going for a ‘max fuel producing land’ with a T1, which is what we saw in Season 0. So keep that in mind as well.

The council is also aiming to have Zero available as early as possible (so we hope to add on an extra few weeks where Zero is launched before whereas that 4 month mark is after Overworld is launched).

Regarding the DAU question, I have my own opinions but I don’t think there’s a consensus on this point and we haven’t really pushed for one as that is at least a few epochs down the road. The more relevant question for this upcoming epoch would be, how many DAU before Illuvium sells ANY MORE land. This current council would be looking at original land sales prices, revenue per player (we have estimates but this could fluctuate a lot), number of actively played land plots, etc.

[radiant sky]

mmh, don't you need to have a total dau number to set up the landsale trigger mechanic?
like when you calculate when and how much land you wana sell, you need the number for how many dau you wana have sold all land, no?

or is it just after some first adjustements, you go live with landsales and don't care about dau, more about timeframe?

[bitter phoenix]

Wouldn’t it be more triggered by how many active zero plots and how many fuel units are being produced and consumed

[mortal mural]

I wanted to know if these changes are doable before open beta. Things to ask During the AMA

[radiant sky]

a lot of the stuff is being worked on in order to have it ready for open beta.
Still waiting on patchnotes tho, hopefully we get them as soon as changes are locked.

[vivid cipher]

Do you really think this is it?

[radiant sky]

yea, supply and demand.
But calculating it just of the based numbers they have at that time, not considering a max amount of daily users doesn't sound good to me.

actually supply falls of, cause that will get regulated by team and council 🙃

[mortal mural]

Wouldn’t it be best to decide on data? I mean for Deciding to sell more land plots or not.

[radiant sky]

well sounds like they make a " i feel we should start after 50k dau selling more land and then after every +25k dau"

maybe i should just read anis post in the evening again 😄

[bitter phoenix]

I would have thought that land sales in the future would be triggered if the number of unit consumed was always hitting the upper limits of what’s being produced. Then the sale would readjust this down for a period of time till it built up again ect

[vivid cipher]

Land Plot Sales

As player demand for fuel increases, small, predictable sales of Illuvium Zero land plots will be leveraged to scale fuel production. These micro-sales will not begin until a minimum of four months after open beta, pending fuel demand increasing. The specific mechanics to determine if sufficient demand has been achieved to trigger land plot sales will be decided in a future ICCP.

[radiant sky]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[vivid cipher]

The triggers are not in place. Still to be determined.

[radiant sky]

in the end it's after what period of time they wana sell, with an automated short term supply system, and manual changes in the very beginning, landsales have nothing to do anymore with suplly or increased demand.
It's more of a "when they wana start getting money of landsales but diluting landowners"

[vivid cipher]

It could be that. Or it could be what the future land sale iccp says it will be.

[bitter phoenix]

Hmm bit cynical

[vivid cipher]

Perhaps iccp should say that at least one land owner should have been able to sell more fuel value than the usd amount that the land was minted for. (Dumb wording but…)

[radiant sky]

Wasn't my Intention...
Should be just logical.

If not, we are fucked when there aren't more Lands to Sale 😂
Which we won't, we have the Systems out of iip-39 for that

[bitter phoenix]

No because Dr Spoon will be there like 6 months before me. Lol

[vivid cipher]

I don’t understand

[radiant sky]

If we would be dependent on Landsales in Order to fullfill an increasing amount of dau and there is a limited amount of plots, it won't work out

[vivid cipher]

Long term, lands can be upgraded in-game to produce more fuel by expanding the number levels for the fuel buildings.

[bitter phoenix]

The solutions short term will definitely be different to solutions long term.

[vivid cipher]

That’s the beauty of iccp. Iteration. No need to fix today the problem we will face in 3 years.

[bitter phoenix]

Further clarification on iip and iccp processes and streamlining needs to happen though. 🙃

[vivid cipher]

||That’s the beauty of iccp. Iteration. No need to fix today the problem we will face in 3 years.||

[radiant sky]

yea, but that could happen without anymore landsales, right 🙃

[radiant sky]

not totally true, there are definetly stuff you need to get right asap. For example if we just take youngest example discussed; value ratios if it comes to fuel output.

[drowsy flower]

Is Zero broken or why no updates?

[vivid cipher]

That’s true. But requires dev time.

[vivid cipher]

What seems to be the problem?

[cyan bone]

The development team are working on transitioning to server authoritative architecture ahead of Open Beta.

It's not glamorous or 'sexy' work that we can share leaks of unfortunately.

The Alpha Build will be deprecated after we close out the Blueprint Minting Phase

[radiant sky]

Not more than Setting up Land Sale mechanics i guess

Comes down to what you prioritize.
More Landsales or automatic fuel system

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/its-a-little-bit-of-both-maybe-dr-wenowdis-kate-mckinnon-saturday-night-live-maybe-both-gif-19653614

[cerulean steppe]

Thanks for joining the discussion, Animositas. I can't remember we had discussions before, so it is good that you jumped in.

I am not going to respond to VONC etc. as this should be about IIP-39 only and I had no intention to remove you (don't know where that comes from and as land holder I have no voting rights anyway).

1. The council and the team spent 2 months discussing this IIP. I really need to ask, why this wasn't discussed with us during these 2 months? And why was IIP-39 not modified with feedback in the following discussions?

There were numerous posts in the community in these 2 months and before that almost cried for clarification and transparency from the team and I don't remember anyone from the team or council mentioning the work on IIP-39. Maybe you guys don't notice this, because your are in the know, but for us land investment owners all these months not knowing anything and then seeing an IIP-39 is pretty frustrating. At least for me.

2. Does the council know more than us about the plans for the fuel economy? Did the team share something with the council we don't know? Because we all would like to know, not just council members.

3. From your comments in 1) it sounds like the team discussed this with you. But why was it written as an IIP? An IIP should only be necessary to change something that is already working and needs to be changed. Why did the team not just tell us their plans or simply implement it? They don't let others write an IIP when they want to change how the OW works, just as an example.

I always hear we are a decentralized DAO. And then discussions are held behind closed doors. This can't be about legal reasons or disclosure agreements. It is "just" in-game economy.

I wanted to be part of a DAO where I can participate, and not be a little clerk in a company hierarchy, that gets fed with some prewritten IIPs and then can not even vote for or against (again land holders can not even for council members).

Governance created a power hierarchy that I am hating more and more.

[long tendon]

You need data for both. Why build out an automated fuel balancing system when we don't know the actual output of the 20k lands.

Same with landsales, you need actual data to properly forecast the exact triggers and how many plots etc. And tbh the team would be the best to provide those granular recommendations

[radiant sky]

Sure you need data never said anything Else.
Just said it's redundant.

• Automated System increases (or decreases) fuel production
• landsale increase fuelproduction
  Since the automated System is shortterm adjustement and landsale longterm adjustement, landsale becomes the unnecessary adjustement Tool. It's just there for selling more Land .

[merry edge]

what is the current time frame before we can actually mint our blueprints?

[long tendon]

My point is not to disagree with your assessment as to which one needs to be built. It's the timing. My personal stand here is you risk a bad gaming experience by adjusting up and down and if you do you do this too many times it ruins it completely. Adjust up is for the benefit of the dao and land owners but adjusting down will screw the economy. Any adjustments needs to be purposeful and not a knee jerk reaction and to do that you need to have access to big data.

[radiant sky]

Can you elaborate on what you mean with benefit and how it would screw economy up? 🙂

[long tendon]

Surely.

Benefits:
More fuel means more players can buy them from land owners more cheaply than guard rail prices.

More fuel production means each plot gets to sell more fuel per production cycle.

How it gets screwed up.

As soon as you keep tweaking it down you create artificial scarcity in an effort to stabilize price rather than allowing the market to do that on its own. You pull a different lever if there's a dip in prices as this may indicate lack of use cases for the fuel I.e. not much content to spend on it.

It also ruins the strategy of land owners who has relied on fixed production.

[cerulean steppe]

In regards to the 5%:

I haven't seen a spec with fomulas etc., so I am just trying to interpret the really thin IIP-39 document.

All of this depends on so many other decisions e.g. the duration of the build up time for IL:Z lands before OW starts.

But if this time is too short, a T1 land would not be able to produce any significant amount of fuel at the time the OW hype sets in and they will miss out on the initial hype fuel sale.

I might be wrong, but this is a concern I have. To be fair, this doesn't have much to do with the upper rail.

[radiant sky]

So would you say if there is lack of content and price plummets asymptotic to 0 you wouldn't manipulate either supply or demand, you would wait for content Updates and hope you onboard new Players or get lefties back with that?

But a fixed production you haven't anyways when constantly increasing supply if game booms and there will be a longtime uptrend in dau, right?

[long tendon]

Im saying team would and should plan out the content well before that happens.

[analog inlet]

@cerulean steppe I responded to your request for a more detailed answer to one of your posts did you have a chance to read it? if not it was here #🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[amber rune]

can you mint the blueprints yet?

[timber glacier]

no, not yet

[amber rune]

ok thanks - I have the max blueprints - so dont play the game anymore...just waiting for minting an beta 😛

[celest narwhal]

@vivid cipher assuming and not granting that everything remains the same as the data we had before the open beta... I also found similar output numbers

A T1 produces at max efficiency around 174 total fuel after around 2 months
With another strategy you can maximize production up to 240 total fuels per day (endgame approximately 12 months)

For the T4 the strategies are more limited and (excluding the fuel landmark bonus in this evaluation) the realistic production is 1530 fuel per day after approximately 2 months. in a context of maximum building capacity 1770 fuel per day.

Therefore, according to my in-game data, a T4 would produce approximately x10[+] the fuel of a T1.
However, since the T4s are 12 times fewer in number than the T1s, in general all the T1s produce one and a half times the fuel produced by all the T4s

and remaining conservative, daily fuels production should be around 6 million and under 8 million. (this data must then be divided by the three types of fuels)

Let's take Crypton into consideration, with a production of 2.1M by LOs and 40.3 million Crypton by illuvium, the daily production is absorbed by 100,000 players who use approximately 424 cryptons per day.

And considering the top rail prices of around $0.02/0.03 as good comes an average daily expense of $8.48/12.72, which seems a bit high for the average player.

but if it were actually absorbed by demand it would mean $800,000/1,200,000 per day for illuvium, just from the crypton.

[pure fable]

I think I found a bug in ILZ
it happened on 5 of my T1 plots in a row:
no blueprints found yet. First scanner at 100% does not find anything. Second scanner at 100% finds archie biodata.

it is nothing for the first, and archie for the second

is this a known bug?

[timber glacier]

Are all plots in the same region?
Which biodata you're most likely to find first depends on the region weights.
Also the very first one is easier to find than the second to fifth ones. Usually within 1-3 tries, so you could just be experiencing a statistical average.

[marsh sage]

Regarding the prep: the group of 4 IIP/ICCPs that came out on August 8th here: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1126838877429182506 were crafted as core concepts that the team and council had identified as worth exploring with the community. From the month of discussions afterward, in those governance channels (>900 comments), the open town hall, and reading literally every single post in this chat, the feedback was taken into account and IIP-39 was drafted. IIP-39 IS the culmination of all of that discussion.

You’ve mentioned that you’re not an ILV holder so this could be a disconnect but our DAOs process for communication of council topics is via releasing our meeting minutes and via town halls. The channel linked below is where the council discussions are shared with the community and in nearly every Strategy meeting since before this epoch started we have shared points for fuel pricing and structure:

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/809220730608680990

Hopefully this helps clarify your process questions on point 1.

[tough forge]

When will the game launch?)

[marsh sage]

Regarding information from the team, Aaron, Kieran, Nick, Johnny have all joined us to give updates and talk through mechanics multiple times - this info is what was used to craft the proposals for the community to review. I don’t think there’s any relevant information that hasn’t been discussed with the community at this point regarding fuel/land as the team is tasked with bringing back a proposal for the specifics for some of the key balancing mechanics.

The council is specifically set up to allow a small group of individuals between team and council who are working on these topics for hours every week bring items back to the community for feedback. For these sorts of complex, interconnected topics, our representative DAO structure (vs. purely democratic DAO where everyone votes on every IIP/ICCP) is MUCH better suited for good outcomes. That said, I can confirm every single member in Strategy is regularly reading the chats across discord and we are gathering sentiment before we even go into the first dialogues on a topic. We may not always respond directly but you and the rest of our engaged community members have an enormous influence on the final versions of these drafts.

[marsh sage]

IIPs (or ICCPs) are used when changes are needed. The orderbook mechanic, future land sale framework, guardrail, balancing mechanics were all never communicated or decided prior to IIPs 37 and 39, thus they needed to go through the governance process. The community feedback need that you note in your second point (and I strongly agree with) is achieved by the IIP process as every one of these topics was aired in public for weeks. We should never have major changes like this go through without a community feedback process.

[marsh sage]

The formula for the 5% sales is intentionally vague as it depends on how far in advance of Overworld, Zero is launched - which is 100% a technical topic on availability and unknowable today. The expectation is that every Zero player has an opportunity to decide how they are allocating fuel (I.e. build production up quicker vs blueprints vs use fuel for themselves vs sell more fuel into the ecosystem). This is always the tradeoff and in the early days after launch that tradeoff may feel more magnified.

We are targeting that every player who is actively playing the game has a chance to share in all fuel sales that are occurring at the guardrail. If my T1 sells .05% of all fuel for a time period after launch. I should get .05% of the sales at the guardrail.

In general that is expected to be a weekly mechanic which is as it is passed today. If Zero launches a month before Overworld that mechanic may be perfectly sufficient. If Zero launches the same day as Overworld we may have to perform that first distribution calculation over a 4, 6, or 8 week period. That discussion will come based on the team recommendation and the last ICCP that specifies items like guardrail pricing and amount of fuel per in-game activity and so forth. These items must be balanced holistically and the council has given the team the responsibility to put the pieces in place, recommend an approach and we’ll evaluate for any gaps we can identify or items the community believes are important.

I apologize for walls of text here and not in governance channels but as this is a relevant set of topics for all Zero players, I think it’s probably relevant to be put in here.

[marsh sage]

Q1 2024

[hearty cradle]

*planned

[marsh sage]

Scruba and others mentioned this point earlier but the specific mechanic hasn’t been decided yet. The following options have been discussed initially (all have pros and cons):

1. Weekly or monthly active users
2. Weekly or monthly paying active users
3. Percent of fuel sold at the guardrail price (or within a small percentage, like 2%)
4. Total fuel sales revenue over a set time period

[hearty cradle]

revenue is all that matter

[hearty cradle]

dau or mau gonna get published? maybe live ticker or graph? I remember kieran was gonna do it by end of month

[marsh sage]

Meaning like the current player base in the beta games? Or you mean after open beta launch having some sort of general info sharing on this?

[hearty cradle]

both

[marsh sage]

Not sure on current - maybe ask Kieran that one directly as I wasn't on the interview or chat when he said it so I don't have a frame of reference. Regarding after open beta, we would definitely want to show this for a variety of reasons (intra-game economy being a big one) so I expect we should have this info able to be visible somewhere. I would be shocked if there aren't third party sites that are also aggregating this along with lots of other additional useful info since much of the key data is on-chain

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/ooh-yeah-nice-christian-bale-duck-face-gif-6054793

That’s a fun bit of data

[hearty cradle]

sounds good

[celest narwhal]

I have a seven pages report I wrote about IZ but it’s in Italian

[celest narwhal]

Realistically Iz should start from 45 to 60 days before the other game for the plots reaching the production of fuel sellable.

[craggy shoal]

I dont disagree, but what if both games became ready around the same time. Would you delay OW so that IZ can have a 6 to 8 week run up? Or start both at the same time?

[celest narwhal]

Then the book order would be filled only with the max rail fuel from illuvium and after the production from the land plot the ratio 1:19 should be to credit till the already sell fuel from illuvium is x19 time the fuel from LO. Sounds a lot of dev works for something unpractical.

[ocean haven]

6 - 8 weeks delay is nothing for land owners, rookie numbers

[craggy shoal]

I agree how things stand now we would run into problems. Just trying to get a sense if delaying OW further to allow IZ run-up time is something the community would be okay with.

[celest narwhal]

Actually there is no need for delay; the Ow player can go in the free zone while IZ owner scramble for production. No problem with that.

[craggy shoal]

Also, consider many will use silv2 at the beginning which has no affect on fuel price as it essentially replaces it and gets burned.

As the silv2 runs out more will have to turn to buying fuel

[celest narwhal]

I was thinking more like the boots and the jet pack have all the resource in the free zone. 700 for each. A lot of trips anyway

[vivid cipher]

$0.02 would be too expensive if a stage1 travel costs 399 fuel. As it does in the current beta. $0.01 tops, maybe even as low as $0.0025 seems reasonable.

[celest narwhal]

399 is a fill number for the closed beta. Many already think the travel will cost 150/200 crypton - daily production of a T1 bc of a statement from the team “ a T1 should produce 1 trip in S1 daily more or take”

[vivid cipher]

To assume that a t1 will produce enough to travel each day may be a mistake.

[celest narwhal]

But will be in line with the statement of Kieran to the scoriox ama where he tell that he see a S1 travel cost around 5$

[vivid cipher]

I mean I would love to see that roi.

$5 a day?!?

[celest narwhal]

That is the max rail

No land owner will put the price at the same level of illuvium rail prices

[vivid cipher]

Oh wait. My brain. Sorry

The land might produce that $5 of fuel. But the land owner take home only $0.25

I’m late to the numbers game. Gotta get on board.

[celest narwhal]

Not exactly like that. It’s an order book. I put my fuel - u accept I take the money. Illuvium put x19 fuel at the top rail. In that way it’s 5%

[vivid cipher]

Oh yeah. The old system is still rattling around in my brain.

So I stand by my statement that $1825 is too much to expect as return each year on a t1 land.

Even half that.

[craggy shoal]

Until we gets millions of players id expect much less than that

[vivid cipher]

Exactly. If lands are even capable of providing as much fuel as they do now then each fuel can’t be priced anywhere close to $0.02

[celest narwhal]

Always sticking to declaration from the team (probably aaron) “the T1 should be at ROI after 6 months from the game connected to the blockchain” and bc we wait 2+ years for the game to exit it’s not really exciting like it should sound but yes. This are the number that “theoretically” should be.

[vivid cipher]

Scoriox was right. You will only need 100 ILV to be a millionaire. (This is a joke)

[craggy shoal]

I would be shocked to see a T1 land hit ROI in 6 months. Just my opinion

Even at todays prices

[celest narwhal]

My personal opinion the price will be initially 0,01 or less but then the price will rise to 0,025 from the LO. With a ROI of 12 months. And then will be another landsale.

[vivid cipher]

I’m sorry, what is LO?

[celest narwhal]

Land owner

[craggy shoal]

We’ll see. We still need to establish a model for prices and rails which could affect things

[split root]

hey people

[vivid cipher]

I’m getting excited about adding the fuel production numbers into my spreadsheet. Comparing tier to tier and tiers/ILV is my jam

[celest narwhal]

Ok say that we have just the 2.1 million/day crypton in the order book and only that are taken, it means we will have only 14,000 travel in S1 a day. So less that 15k player for an extended period of time. The game would really sucks for something like that to happen. And I don’t think that overworld will sucks.

[split root]

i wound love to see another video or a page that talks in depth about the tokenomics and the whole overal plan and scope of Illuvium , things are moving fast and , This is one of the best videos i have watched and would love a updated version with more pages and pictures to refer to tha5t could be updated as we go along , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GKZ_c84J0o

Illuvium Economy Deep Dive (w/ Kieran Warwick) | Tokenomics of ILV & sILV2 -- Illuvium Insider

I play all 4 games , im a land owner and invest ILV personaly and as a company

if this should be in a different thread please let me know

[rotund reef]

I agree with a lot of you, there won't be anyone hitting breakeven or coming anywhere near it during that first year. And I'm stoked about it. This will knock out the baby hands, and make things even cheaper for anyone who wants to come in for the first time or stock up on more land/tokens.

Let's be honest, YOU might understand the long game, but the NFT community as a whole is years and years of experience away from understanding it.

[split root]

That’s what I like about the video I posted just above ☝️. It talks not only about the economy but it talks about Kieran’s long term overall goal for the franchise and how we can be apart of it with the tokens , lands and everything Like shareholders

[vivid cipher]

It will likely get lost in here. Buried. Other than giving direct feedback on the website, creating a #1020759212172775464 thread and pinging someone in it, there’s not really only one spot for asking the team for such a broad picture that covers most every topical discussion.

I will say that the new one of these that had been on the table to create was basically postponed indefinitely due to some sort of legal advice. Possibly something to do with illuvium not actually being a company and no one technically being a shareholder. 🤷 Not ideal. But it’s where we are.

[split root]

Thanks for the reply

[ocean haven]

from what i understand, you can be sure you will not make anywhere near you ROI before next land sale. haven't followed to close, but think next land sale is planned 3-5 months after release

[ocean haven]

Also dont think LO owns supply anymore, pretty sure DAO owns that now 🙂 could be wrong again

[hearty cradle]

so the value of land is pretty much capped.
and in the following bear market there will be more supply

[celest narwhal]

For the next landsale will be need a number of pay player that make the production of the fuel not enough or that the projection of growth in that sense will make the landsale iip pass. Bc for the next landsale the main council should approve: N of land plot in sell and prices. For your other comment from the start illuvium have the ability to produce x19 fuel every fuel the landowner sell. So In my exemple before I was considering the fuel put in the order book under the max rail (exclusivity of illuvium dao) like “worst scenario” case. Where only the fuel under the max rail was buy. But it’s kinda unlikely illuvium has 1.9 M people in waiting list for the game. Just 1% of that buying a single S1 travel (in a month) took all the fuels that the landowners produce in a month.

[jovial haven]

Idk my T1 land doesn't produce that insane amount of fuel tho.. Prob 15-20 crypton a day.. and im Lv550+ with my land

[celest narwhal]

150 fuel total it means in crypton/Solon/Hyperion, round 50 crypton for each day. We don’t know the price range for Solon and Hyperion. So for now we consider the same price range for all 3.

[tardy falcon]

It has been said there won’t be another land sale until the first round landholders cover their initial investment. Would be terrible if there were another land sale before then no matter if it’s 6mo or a year after launch… initial landholders returns should be priority before any future sales.

[rotund reef]

That's good news, but what is "initial investment"?? Everyone bought in at different prices.

[hearty cradle]

1.9m lol

we have 50 dau

[tardy falcon]

Yep… hopefully common sense wins and there is an average of each tier taken… along with an average of time needed to develop lands. I’m sure not everyone will play equally as hard. But it shouldn’t be terribly difficult to estimate returns based on ongoing data post launch.

[hearty cradle]

existing holders are 9k, we are nowhere near 1.9m

[celest narwhal]

Like kieran said in the ama, most of the people don’t see much of achievement to play a game that will be erased in few months. That is a truth.

[hearty cradle]

i see, ur still at that stage

[vivid cipher]

You must know by now that it’s hard to find someone as cynical as you.

[hearty cradle]

my mom said im special

[vivid cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/jes-im-just-done-what-my-mama-learnt-me-gif-10029153

Wow. That personal attack from a mod. 📸

[hearty cradle]

modddssss

[reef jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-an-abuse-of-power-upset-how-dare-you-not-fair-jeremy-gif-16683555

[bitter phoenix]

Thanks for all the great explanations. The report that you have written, would Google translate work to translate it into English?

[celest narwhal]

I think so. Would you like to read it?

[bitter phoenix]

I would really like to read it.

You have a great way of explaining things

[ocean haven]

That makes more sense, thanks for clearing that up.

[bitter phoenix]

There’s no rush though. Just dm me when ever you have the time if your able to put it into English.

[lethal wyvern]

DMs are scams

Mods and Team members will never DM you.
Never trust advice or links received in DMs.

Beta access, giveaways, and promotions are not given out via DM. Scams are designed to trick you into installing malicious software to gain access to your wallet or to convince you to enter your seed phrase into a website. Never give your private key (12 to 24-word seed phrase) to anyone.

Support is not provided via DMs

Support is handled publicly, or in threads within the Illuvium Discord. People offering support via DM are scammers.

Please follow the instructions pinned in #report-scammers to report bad actors so we can remove them from the server.

[cyan bone]

This is accurate from my perspective.

I've had 'beta access' to many games in the past including new World of Warcraft expansions, Diablo 4, and I'm the type of player that will spend 30 minutes getting a quick feel for the game before exiting out and uninstalling until the live game is available.

[bitter phoenix]

I think a lot of zero players did the minimum amount of work to get the blueprints and then left their plots to grow weeds. I certainly did.

[cyan bone]

Shortly before PvP we have plans to reactivate the 1 million + players that have signed up for Newsletters, Accounts or Registered for Beta access

Ranked Ascendant Mode is (for me) the first product that will have a high level of replability

[bitter phoenix]

That’s a good plan. The email database is a great resource to start the hype train 🚂

[cyan bone]

Absolutely.

Why I remain so confident isn't 'just talk', we're extremely close to being able to drop PvP content and open the flood gates to a much larger player-base.

[bitter phoenix]

And a great place to send basic explainer graphics and information on how the ecosystem works.

[cyan bone]

be right back, coffee time

[cyan bone]

wish I knew who created this masterpiece

[atomic cove]

super hopium addicted that one

[trail forge]

Without rewards for doing well and/or tournaments it will just turn into what Survival is now

[bitter phoenix]

You don’t think players will want to play just to be the top rank?

[trail forge]

For a while yes just like I did with Survival. Then when there is nothing to play for its over

[bitter phoenix]

So there needs to be a leaderboard with rewards like beyond?

[trail forge]

Yup

[bitter phoenix]

Is that planned?

[trail forge]

Thats up to the team to share if they are or not.

[bitter phoenix]

Does this need to potentially be a feature across all games in the illuvium ecosystem?

Including zero

[trail forge]

It will depend on the game. For stuff like Zero/OW it is not needed because the rewards are already there (fuel/blueprints for ilz and illuvials/augments/etc for ow)

[bitter phoenix]

It may not be needed but I could see where it could be a good feature to make all of them have a similar system of extra incentives to create the competitive players to strive to achieve better efficiency

[trail forge]

They just arent those types of games. (at least in current form)

[bitter phoenix]

I guess the achievements in zero will sort that part out eventually

I keep forgetting about that as it wasn’t really functional in this version

[pure fable]

I think it is very unlikely to be variance, since it was always the second scan, and always archie. And it were 5 in a row with no plots before or after that with the same pattern.

I mean we could just calculate the likelyhood

but I think it were different regions aswell

[celest narwhal]

With just 5 biodata more than a bug it’s random statistic.

[timber glacier]

Yes, it's a very small pool of possible biodata. And also 3 regions have a high chance for Archie (Abyssal Basin, Brightland Steppes and Halcyon Sea).

And checking my data, I found my first biodata on the second scan 3/5 times. The others being 1st and 8th scan. So it's at least very common to get it on the second try.

[mortal mural]

elements for a T1 land we just spam converters too?

[icy thicket]

You have unleashed my inner artist 😆

[vale dragon]

land price pump, what happened?

[reef vapor]

any idea when minting will start?

like a said date?

[icy thicket]

Nothing yet - but will be announced widely when the date is set

[reef vapor]

alright thank you hope the time fram for minting isnt that small

[icy thicket]

I agree! 🙂 A couple weeks minimum to ensure everyone has a chance to mint

[icy thicket]

You got all your blueprints on your land(s)?

[empty path]

https://tenor.com/view/illuvium-illuviumio-ilv-yield-farming-gif-22225026

[manic ginkgo]

Have you fixed the Marketplace glitch?

[empty path]

Nick replied to this in general

[cyan bone]

thank you

[empty path]

No, thank you

[long tendon]

I'd say this is accurate for the 1% highly competitive players but doesn't apply in broad strokes to the rest of us casual plebs who find a sense of achievement in climbing the ranks.

I played hearthstone for years and got nothing out of it but just pure enjoyment and climbing ladder whenever my time permitted.

Anyway this is off topic hehehe

[long tendon]

Again another off topic discussion but I'd like to give my personal thoughts that there should be some incentive but not necessarily ilv rewards like beyond.

If the big money is tournaments I'd like to give ascendant leaderboards an opportunity to get guaranteed slots in these tournaments (weekly/monthly?) as an example

[trail forge]

A bit different when you're spending 100s of dollars rather than free

TFT is fine to just play and climb because its F2P

[long tendon]

Have you played HS? I'm pretty sure I paid hundreds of dollars in my years of playing lol

[trail forge]

Git Gud. (It's free that way)

[long tendon]

Git rich. Cause I don't have time to waste grinding for gold or dust :😜

Not that I'm rich lol

[trail forge]

Haha true. The Arena grind took some time to get to a spot where I had everything

And that was back when there was only 1-2 sets to complete!

[long tendon]

As much as I love to keep this topic going we're gonna get a mod to interject and say we're off topic hahaha.

Let's reel it back to IZ.

[trail forge]

I can combine the 2

Ascendant (Leviathan too) Arena Tournaments Daily
Pay X Fuel -> New tourney fires whenever enough players are in queue
Prizes for Top X

This way more fuel is spent and Zero players get more of that 5% revenue
Arena players can grind as much as they want to make back the money they spent on investing in decks

Win Win

[hearty cradle]

no

[hot bronze]

Yes

[hot bronze]

Hey Fam, been a while - Is ILZ still android only atm?

(besides PC)

[vivid cipher]

That is correct. Not on iOS or in-browser yet

[hot bronze]

Thanks Pelican!

[pure fable]

ok but what do you think how likely that is?
5/5
it is 10 perfect scans in a row with under 50% probability.
Which to me sounds like very likely that something is off with the "randomness".

[timber glacier]

We don't know the exact probabilities. Only that they're boosted for the first biodata.
But regardless of the numbers, it follows the same statistical models as any other random function, you're likely to find the first biodata on the same number as ~68% of all tries. And with a low number as 2, there's little room for variance, which only increases the number of times you'll see it at the same number.

i.e. You can't have a lower standard deviation than 1, so you'll have above 80% chance of it landing on 2.
EDIT: Graph just shows the standard variance distribution. For this particular instance it'd be more skewed to the left, but I can't find a decent graph picturing that at the moment.

So I'd say it's highly likely it's just probability, considering we're dealing with such small numbers.

[fervent slate]

To make a Blueprint Skin, do I need an ILLUVIUM as a material?
For example, to create an Atlas Skin, an Atlas is needed.

If so, the Skin will be sold for a high price.
I have a feeling that it would not sell very well.

[timber glacier]

as far as we know, yes

[radiant sky]

difficult to make price assumptions if you don't know the price of the OW runs and the exact materials you need.

[timber glacier]

also depends on the looks, and what people feel about that

I know some people will pay a lot to look good (or at least what they think looks good)

[fervent slate]

Thank you for your answer!!
It sounds like a lot of work to create a Tier 5 Skin.

[timber glacier]

yeah, those will probably be pretty costly

relatively speaking

especially higher stage ones

since that would require multiple lower stage illuvials, and you're not really guaranteed one every run

then as Spoon pointed out, also depends on the price of fuel

[fervent slate]

Right.
I would rather buy a $10 illuvium than a $20 skin, though.

[radiant sky]

i would rather buy a 10$ illuvial than a 5$ skin.
but when looking at other games, there are peole rather buying a 50$skin than a 10$ illuvial.

the whole implementation of materials into the process of creating skins is very critical.
it not only makes them extremely limited just due to supply of materials, but could also make them too expensive to have enough sales to make it really profitable.

[gloomy quarry]

20-30$ for a skin is not unheard of in other games. Add ownership and ability to sell it later and 50-60$ or even more is not so far fetched for the rarest ones

[fervent slate]

Yes, even if the skins cost $50, it would not be a problem.

However, we believe that it is more likely to remain unsold as it is more expensive than ILLUVIAL.

Then it would be faster to sell the illuvial as it is, which means that we question whether it is worth it to make a blueprint and sell it.

Also, making skins requires Fuel, so we are in the red until they are sold.
If it doesn't sell, you are in the red.

If that's the case, I think it would be better to be making Fuel than making Blueprints.
It depends on the market price.

[sharp elk]

We don’t have enough information to predict.

However if tier 1 runs are going to be cheap, let’s say $1 of fuel, then it is likely that the value of low level illuvials are likely to be dirt cheap, or almost worthless.

If you can buy an atlas off the market for $0.2 each, I doubt the atlas skin will be expensive to make.

If you can buy a solid starter deck for $20 total, I doubt people would object to buying a single skin for $5.

Obviously all based on made up figures, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they aren’t far off.

[true sequoia]

and even if the land creates some value, is each transaction for eth (fuel, bp, etc.) going to be taxable? That will be a nightmare, vs just in game swapping for OW runs, minting, etc.

[radiant sky]

depending on the country you live in i guess.

[true sequoia]

yikes

[languid haven]

Does it matter not finding all the facts? Is there a benefit for finding them all?

[radiant sky]

with information provided facts will get wiped too when season1 ends.
So no, there is no benefit, since you can't keep them.

[mortal mural]

I need to ask again about some technicals about the fuel selling and the illuvium minting fuel.
When we Land Owners (LO) mint our fuel to sell, we can set the price from 0 - top guard rail price. For very fuel LO mint, ILLUVIUM mints 19 more. Here is my confusion. Does illuvium only sells fuel at TOP GUARD RAIL price? if so, as long as LO keep selling lowe than TOP GUARD RAIL price, do LO keep all revenue?
have we changed to ILLUVIUM mints any amount and sells at TOP GUARD RAIL PRICE to meet demand, from this revenue 5% is distributed to LO depending on their weekly fuel sales percentage from LO weekly total fuel sale.

[languid haven]

Thank you!

[radiant sky]

As far as i understood it, illuvium doesn't mint when LO mints.
As soon as you put 1 fuel for Sale, illuvium puts 19x1 fuel to Sale for the Same price as LO did.

[mortal mural]

that makes senses, ok. but also ILLUVIUM sells any amount at guard rail price to meet demand, right? from IIP 39?

[radiant sky]

Yes

[mortal mural]

thx, its much clearer now. i needed to know to fantazise with numbers on how much imma make or lose. lol

[radiant sky]

I guess we all were at that point multiple times 😬

[tall crypt]

When it reaches 180 elements the illuvium zero program crashes. I can't build more.

[mortal mural]

you mean buildings?

[nova epoch]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-wtf-tom-delonge-wtf-blink183-wtf-hayat-gif-16782731

[mortal mural]

how many converters can you efficiently allocate near an element/fuel site?

i heard in some youtube videos that you would want element/fuel sites clumped together, but that wouldnt be the case on a t1, right? since you gotta use converters

[willow torrent]

Excuse my ignorance but is season 1 just about alpha blueprints and season 2/PB or what ever we are calling it these days will have our lands reset? Am I wasting my time?

[cyan bone]

Good morning,

Season 1 is about testing and learning the game.

As a thank you to those participating, players can take advantage of 15 blueprints that will be mintable ahead of Open Beta.

Season 2/Open Beta onwards, Lands are reset and Fuel is available to be sold.

[willow torrent]

Understood. Thanks. I have some minor feedbacks that may already have been considered for the next installment. Is here the best place for it?

[iron veldt]

Is it possible that converters will get nerfed?

[cyan bone]

via Support would be great.

Everything is captured in various buckets, bugs, feedback etc.

[cyan bone]

Yes, balancing is ongoing