Ayaneo Pocket DMG

[small moss]

That was a great comparison. Can you also do one with the rumored 4in 960x720 screen of the RG406?

[radiant plank]

I subscribed the 406 rumor thread but I didn't catch this 960x720 thing. Unsure about today but I'll durely draw this comparison. Probably more in the 406 thread. That beeing said, 720p is 3x for retro systems which will be quite low for a quality CRT shader.
EDIT : done ! #1214317939163926548 message

[dry comet]

Honestly this is all selling me on the Retroid Mini

[vivid cypress]

Srsly. At first I was nah i dont need it, then the 40xxv was announced and i thought i'll get this, but then ordered the DMG bc of OLED and GameCube, and now the retroid mini seems like a way better value

[strong atlas]

Ye, retroid mini is probably the better value . But I really really want a vertical premium handheld.

[vivid cypress]

samee

my wallet is in shambles

[radiant plank]

We know more and more about Retroid's and if the SoC allows for PS2 at 2x, then it would really an incredible device. About twice the price for only 1 additional inch in practice and a few refinements (yet more uncertainty about software mid-term support) is difficult to justify to me. I'm just waiting for Retroid's SoC but I'll probably cancel Indiegogo. But of course, if vertical matters a lot to you, then Ayaneo is the way to go, unless the upcoming vertical Anbernic RG406 also have a stong SoC and good screen.

[radiant plank]

Done. My intend was anyway to run almost everything from 8 to 64 bits and use CRT/grid shaders to magnify the pixel art beauty. I would typically run PS1 at 1x rather than 4x, and use the resolution headroom for CRT shaders. The screen resolution was actually my main motivation for this Ayaneo Pocket DMG even if for 640p consoles emulation, the CRT shaders would have been quite basic scanlines. But my usecase doesn't require to run 64 bits systems at more than 1x so I'm sure that Retroid's Pocket Mini will do the job. Plus it will have analogue L2R2 and a regular second stick. And I'm fine with horizontal. If Ayaneo's was not like twice the price, I would probably have had more hesitations, 0.1" beeing not much, but beeing a nice addition nevertheless.

[strong atlas]

Vertical always been the main appeal of the handheld for me personally, like there are probably better options if you just want a strong handheld like the Odin 2 or upcoming Evo. I guess the other thing that stands out is the screen aspect , but now that there's a 4:3 OLED it loses some of its steam.

[candid canyon]

How is it more uncertainty about software mid-term support?

[radiant plank]

I'm perhaps wrong but I'm unsure about G3x drivers optimization? And provided the price point, I don't see a community developing for Ayaneo devices. So they're likely to be left alone and I doubt that such a company will follow up software long after a successor gets released.

And while the Pocket S has received software fixes, they don't have a strong reputation about software updates fot their preceeding devices. But I have to admit that they seem to rationalize dev with a unique system and with the Evo, a 3rd device with the same SoC. Only future will tell. I'd be if they guarantee security updates and such for X years. That's now usual on the phone market, and part of the specsheet.

[autumn jolt]

Drivers are better than when RGC reviewed for example. But that really only matters for switch and maybe vita which I don’t see as target systems here. GameCube and PS2 don’t use/need custom drivers.

[autumn jolt]

They’ve pushed more updates to the pocket s afaik then Retroid or Odin to recent devices. Also I don’t think any of these manufacturers are pushing long term/security updates. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s not really a valid negative compared to other handhelds that also don’t receive such updates.

[radiant plank]

Thanks for the clarification. About long term security updates, I think that when you ask for a premium price, customers are legitimate to have such expectations. Or they sell cheap and we don't expect much from the company and mostly hope for community support.

[keen eagle]

know how long the refund window is?

kind of want to see more from the others before I pull put

[candid canyon]

Ayaneo has supported their Android devices far better and more comprehensively than other devices on the market, and continue to do so. Even compared to others in a similar price range.

It's a bit odd how that would be against a mark against one of their devices.

[strong atlas]

I thought aye neo just started in the android handhelds

[brave knot]

pocket air was oct 2023 right, so yea...haven't really been around for long enough for that type of claim

[candid canyon]

That's kind of the point though. Others have had fewer updates in a longer length of time. Some get none at all.

Or do you mean the claim that they "they don't have a strong reputation about software updates fot their preceeding devices"?

I get not liking Ayaneo because they make devices that don't necessarily appeal to everyone and because they don't bother compromising them (in what some would consider an acceptable way) in order to hit the lower price points of competitors, but sometimes I feel that some of the arguments are kinda disingenuous.

Personally I think the DMG and the RPM definitely have some overlap if you ignore the form factor, but without knowing the SOC on the RPM it's hard to make a proper comparison. I want a device that can do upscaled/shadered 4:3 content without caveats, and the RPM can still screw that one up.

[patent sable]

Higher frequency of updates don't necessarily mean quality updates/good software though.

No idea on the android side for their device but I kind of dread their ayaspace update on the windows/x86, sometimes working stuff just get broken, stuff you already configured get removed/reset etc.
Alot fluff and impressive sounding updates description in the changelog but sometime the basics....

[candid canyon]

True, it doesn't. But they have been. They're not perfect but they've been improvements and extra features.

Others don't get that, and some even need CFW like GammaOS to fix basic things that never get addressed, but somehow this is a "uncertainty" for Ayaneo.

[radiant plank]

There have been issues with the Air if I remember well, with updates not working properly and so on.

And please read my posts again, not only the parts you quote, because you twist what I mean in a quite displeasant manner. My point is that when you buy cheap, you know you'll rely on the community with minimal efforts from the manufacturer. But when you pay as premium as Ayaneo asks, then you are legitimate to ask for a flawless experience. See my post at 15:51.

Plus I try to be balanced as I am nevertheless quite optimistic in my 15:42 post where I mention that things have improved with the Pocket S, and that they obviously improve their strategy with devpt rationalisation. No bashing here.

If you like to quote me, be it. But please don't forget half of the story.

I have no stocks or be employed by any manufacturer, and absolutely zero brand loyalty. Regarding Ayaneo, I even did order a Pocket DMG on Indiegogo and have a postive impression. But please let people be a bit balanced and not only either trolls or fanboys.

[candid canyon]

Ironically I think there was another update today.

[jovial cobalt]

RPM will be better value but who gets an Ayaneo for value anyway?

as far as verticals go I don't see anything touching this one any time soon

[brave knot]

they haven't been around long enough to develop a reputation good or bad

[candid canyon]

That's fair, yeah. It's a bit eye-roll worthy to keep seeing these takes repeated as gospel.

[sly ledge]

I think some of the claims about updates and issues do stem from the Pocket Air. I got 1 update the 6 months I own it. I heard they started pushing more updates for Pocket S, but I didn't back that after the way they handled the Air.

[tame heron]

they basically abandoned the air before it even launched because of the odin 2

the pocket S/dmg/micro don't really have that problem

[brave knot]

is the pocket air still on android 12 0.0

[strong atlas]

I dont think i generally care

For updates and Android versions aslong as i can play games.

[jovial cobalt]

I don't think this will shock anybody but using the stick + the triggers is not going to be pleasant here

[eager rapids]

I’m curious about which version you purchased. I don’t intend to use the DMG for emulating the Switch, so I’m unsure if the 8G version is sufficient.

[strong atlas]

8 should be plenty for emulating anything and even most of switch stuff.

PC emulation would require more probably depending what you wanna play

[brave knot]

i got the 12 gb primarily because of the 256gb of storage. android games and apps are becoming bigger and running those off internal storgae is generally better. also, 12 gb should futureproof a bit more for winlator.

[autumn jolt]

I went higher for pocket s/evo

but for this just the base model as I don't intend to play gacha games or switch on it

For up to ps2/gc base model should be more than enough and the internal storage is really only a big deal for large android games and maybe switch since yuzu stores updates internally

[jovial cobalt]

I went for the 12gb model since I'd like to mess around with winlator

it's a long shot but I like the idea of getting old 4:3 PC games working on this kind of form factor handheld

[radiant plank]

Yep. And the trackpad would help a lot for that. When I ordered the DMG, I was thinking about ScummVM with the trackpad.

[tame heron]

oh that's actually cool as shit

[autumn jolt]

If the game is old enough wouldn’t even 8 be enough or does winlator take up a lot of headroom. Old games were playing on systems with megabytes, not gigabytes of ram…

[tame heron]

He might be using winlator for modern games

[eager rapids]

This is the first time I've heard of Winlator... Oh no, I’m going to get caught up in another round of crazy indecision.

[brave knot]

winlator has been pretty amazing. the steamdeck used to be my go to indie handheld but now i play a lot of steam indie games on odin 2 or my phone. the ones that haven't been ported anyways

12gb is also recommended if you're playing anything remotely modern on winlator

[strong atlas]

It feels kinda hard to set up for me, but then again maybe I just tried a game that just didn't work

[jovial cobalt]

there's a guy on YouTube that has pretty good winlator content including pre made profiles and stuff

https://youtube.com/@zerokimchii

check him out

[lone condor]

I was actually looking for something like this 🙂
Thanks for sharing it!

[devout plover]

Limited edition bag

[strong atlas]

Wow that looks legit pretty nice

[devout plover]

Is it bad i want the bag more than the handheld 😅😂

[craggy ginkgo]

I just want my promised 2 in 1 magnetic flip case for my pocket s

[jovial cobalt]

damn that looks waaay fancier that it needed to be

[echo mantle]

Ayaneo is the king of presentation

[lone condor]

https://tenor.com/view/zoolander-gif-27277118

[lament dock]

I get that people like lanyards. But really. Who puts a bag that size on a lanyard

It does look nice though.

[lament dock]

Genuinely, that magnetic case is the nicest handheld case I have ever seen.

[quasi ocean]

I'm looking at this for winlator too. Lots of old games on 4:3 that would look good on this

[bitter moat]

If I'm going to carry a purse I want it to hold more than my handheld.

[obtuse osprey]

I haven't seen anywhere: is this a metal shell?

[candid canyon]

Nope

[radiant plank]

I was rethinking about screen resolution when compared to 4:3 960p, for CRT 16 bit systems.

Retro games are actually almost all 224p, even NES. I've read a bit about crop overscan and found this interesting paper https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Overscan. Same goes for SNES and Master System. It appears that there is really no need to display more than 240x212. At 5x, the DMG (odd 1240x1080 3.92") displays up to 248x216, which is actually exactly the mid blue line, which is VERY safe and PERFECT ! Title safe area is 224x192 ! So the DMG screen displays as image which would be more like 1.1" without this 3.5% crop which is still very conservative. No game was intended to display without an overscan crop.

On a 960p screen, displaying 224p with integer scales is however more difficult (yes you want integer scales if you want adequate shaders). At 4x, a 960p displays 240 lines and includes the danger zone which should always be avoided (it is skipped by emulators though). And at 5x, that's 192 lines. It's exactly the title safe area but there are much more chances to skip important content.

So I would say that for these systems, DMG rules.

Genesis is also 256x224 for a few games (Flashback and others) but most are 320x224 (not considering safe areas). Here, x5 is far too much for the DMG. Better keep 4x. The DMG screen can do up to 310x270. That's a horizontal 3% crop only, far from the 10% people usually consider. And despite the ~8:7 screen, the screen displays 3.7" Genesis games, which is not that bad and while beeing conservative, it doesn't waste small overscan areas that were not really intended to get displayed in a first place.

So IMHO, this 1080p screen really rulez for 2D CRT retro gaming. More recent 32 bits consoles introducing 3D such as the PS1 or Saturn also assume a fair overscan. People say 10% is safe and 5% very conservative. At 4:3, with a x4 multiplier, you only need a 3% horizontal crop (within any safe area by some margin) to render a 32 bits game on a 3.7" zone, which is OK while not as great as for 16 bits systems. But still. I'm unsure if Ayaneo did target so accuratly on purpose, but at the end; price let appart, for who is in retro gaming, this DMG is very appealing overall. I wish they save a bit money on the SoC (this one is overkill for retro, I think).

Sorry if is long but I had to make the calculations for me anyway since I've now learned more about what overscan is safe, and about the actual resolution of a NES, so let me share in the mean time.

Where this screen is bad, is for NDS. LCD consoles are not meant to be croped, unlike CRTs. So for this one, I think that non integer scaling will be mandatory. And the result is 3.7" at 4.8x for the top screen alone.

TATE games are not great either and they come at like 3" for 3:4. On a horizontal handheld with a right stick, you may take advantage or the full screen by rotating the console.

[brave knot]

good analysis. i will say that i'm still gonna be playing vertical shooters on this. the black bars will be much less noticeable without integer scaling and with the soc having the power to apply crt shaders that bow out the sides a bit for a fish eye effect. the soc being as powerful as it is also means you'll be able to play more modern cave shooters that have performance issues on most other handhelds today anyways.

[radiant plank]

Since I'm quite fast with Excel, I've tried to put all this in a spreadsheet, to compare RP5, RPMini and DMG. Let me post the full spreadsheet as a picture for more convenience. I've only considered retro systems designed for sub/pre 16/9. For each system, I've set the optimal integer scaling (the largest that only leads to minimal crop overscan, and no crop for LCDs). Weights reflect my own preferences for a further aggregation of the results.

These are all weighted averages among retro systems :

• surface of emulation area in square inches
• square root to have an idea of the size if the surface was a square
• diagonal of the diplayed area for games
• surface ratio for the games wrt total screen size

[autumn jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/calculation-math-hangover-allen-zach-galifianakis-gif-6219070

[radiant plank]

Since I'm considering retro system, no surprise that the games cover on average a significantly smaller surface of the 16/9 RP5. Still, the size of the displayed games is significantly larger. The Ayeneo is in between : large effective display area yet not the largest but not letting with the impression of all that wasted screen space.

[radiant plank]

😉 No it's very easy actually : maths are no more than middle school !

On average, retro games appear 17% larger on the DMG than on the RPMini, and yet another 22% to the RP5 (considering surface area, not diagonals).

[quasi ocean]

My man is doing lord's work. Thanks for this

I'll check carefully later but it does seem that DMG is a nice resolution all around

[radiant plank]

Yep, it's not as niche as one would expect. And the game/screen ratios are the most consistent across emulated systems.

[quasi ocean]

Worst is GBA. All the rest is a really good percentage

89% on 4:3 is really good. I'm really excited for x86 4:3 games on this

[radiant plank]

Indeed. And yet, its a 3.4" GBA, which is not that bad.

Note that the 89% things are reached with a bit of overscan crop. Less that what you had on your TV anyway, but still.

This way.

[quasi ocean]

Ah I got it. You also wrote the pixels and percentage

I need to save this xls

[radiant plank]

Yep. Overscan pixels is the sum of both sides. When you see 10, it means 5 pixels less on each side.

Just : about x86 games as opposition to console games designed to run on consumer TVs, I guess that the PC monitors safe area is quite tight when compared to NTSC. 5 pixels is not that much but if a game is designed to display important information at the very edge, then it not that optimal. Consoles never do that and 224p is meant to be cropped anyway. Monitors are perhaps different.

[radiant plank]

Note that despite having a 0.2" smaller screen, the RP Mini actually displays retro games 0.3" smaller due to the less optimal resolution for integer scaling.

A few days ago, I had zero interest in the RP5 and I was strongly inclined to consider the Mini for a purchase. I now consider the RP Mini as the worst option (as far as money is notaken into consideration). Te RP5 looks great though. But I wonder if its venerable Snapdradon 865 will be OK to silently run advanced CRT shaders. The Ayaneo is a very different beast.

[quasi ocean]

Yeah I'm aware that x86, 4:3 will probably lose some pixels but usually it's nothing important at the very edge

But let's see

[lone condor]

Seriously did anyone buy this one? 🙂

[radiant plank]

Why not ? It is typically better in every single way than the hyped RP Mini for instance.

[quasi ocean]

Around 500 units sold

[jovial cobalt]

this guy maths

[jovial cobalt]

It's a solid OLED vertical other than price and stick placement

[brave knot]

i mean, i bought it. best vertical handheld on the market atm right?

[quasi ocean]

Yep

[candid canyon]

Probably will be for years.

[radiant plank]

I agree about the stick placement though. I have large hands so it would perhaps be OK but with smaller hands, how to operate the stick and use back buttons ?

The trackpad will also perhaps prove great for mouse games (point and clic and such). But I wonder how to move the mouse and clic with buttons ?

Specs wise, the DMG runs circles around others but I have doubts about ergos.

[radiant plank]

Frequently Asked Question is "What's the point of such an expensive SoC to emulate 4:3 consoles ?". People with memory of the days know how awful is an emulation with just square and sharp pixels (nothing organic, no depth in rendering...). So as to enjoy the work of devs/artists, you need to run computationally expensive algorithms.

[radiant plank]

With average actual display-to-body ratio.

RP Mini is also out for me solely because of its very weak ability to integer scale SNES (pinnacle of CRT 2D pixel art) : only 3.1" at 4x vs 3.9" at 5x. The 224p 5x on a 960p display would overscan too much (14%).

[vivid cypress]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTSVUw4q5kM

just looking at this give me thumb cramps

[lone condor]

https://tenor.com/view/yikes-alexis-alexis-rose-annie-murphy-schitts-creek-gif-20774183

[lament dock]

I mean....it's the same layout as all the other verticals 🤷‍♂️

[safe owl]

Why only one joystick? And why the other is tactile? Xd

[lament dock]

I'm currently playing Fallout on a handheld. Trust me, a touch pad is very useful.

[keen eagle]

huh so the dmg is still better for displaying retrogames than the mini, who woulda thunk

[jovial cobalt]

not quite

the 40xxv has the stick slightly more offset

and the 405v/406v have significantly offset sticks

the position of the stick matters for how comfortable it is to reach it with your thumb

when Arthur was confronted with criticism about this his answer was basically "nope, everything is fine, we tested it"

but we can see from the footage now that the stick + triggers ergo is just as bad as people thought it would be in this configuration

you don't buy a vertical for ergonomics, but there's no question they could have done better here

[keen eagle]

judging from its design, I take it they did that because otherwise the touchpad space would be even less hehe

[lament dock]

The 353v was like that, people still liked it. I doubt 5mm left or right makes much difference to be honest.

[jovial cobalt]

it does, the PlayStation controller for instance has sticks down but they are very comfortable to reach thanks to how offset they are

[lament dock]

I mean...you say it does, I say it doesn't, you give examples where it's offset, I give examples where they are not.....

It's not like this is a conversation that goes anywhere other than, some people mind it, some people don't

And as you said earlier, if you are after perfect ergo for sticks, the vertical form factor is a disadvantage in any case.

[tame heron]

The sticks on the 353v were useless

[jovial cobalt]

well I'm just saying, Ayaneo could have done a better job

[tame heron]

Worst possible ergo

The inset on the 405v makes the ergo on par with a proper gamepad

[bitter moat]

How you hold it makes a big difference though. You must hold gently, like hamburger. 🍔

[tame heron]

https://tenor.com/view/burger-king-shining-gif-4827091

[glad stump]

https://tenor.com/view/long-thumb-thumbs-up-gif-25948245

[tame heron]

https://tenor.com/view/if-i-told-you-it-wouldn't-be-a-surprise-the-boss-smiling-friends-telling-you-now-would-ruin-the-fun-adult-swim-gif-9815074893515249803

[candid canyon]

I don't expect it to be an issue, personally speaking. I always hear about hand-destroying ergo problems involving literally every product (especially before release) and then I get my hands on them and it's never an actual issue.

The curse of having average hands.

[torn trench]

Analog sticks on a vertical will never not look like an abomination to God

[lament dock]

The curse of so much choice.

All of a sudden whether a stick is half a cm to the right or not is a deal breaker

[candid canyon]

It was only the other day that people deemed (prior to launch) the RG Cube unusable due to the height of the d-pad.

You'd have thought it was actually literally Chinese finger torture.

[lament dock]

On a semi serious note, I do wonder if a lot of people in this discord have undiagnosed carpel tunnel or RSI or something.

I've never had, or known anyone that has had, hand cramps from a game playing device.

Listening to people here, you'd think that's just what happens after playing games for a certain length of time.

[candid canyon]

Probably yeah. The audience does skew techy so I wouldn't be surprised.

[brave knot]

sometimes feel so old reading about ergo or weight issues. and i think back to my childhood where i spent hours holding up 2-3 lb hardcover books over my face while laying on the couch or something lol

[brave knot]

anyways this thumb pic doesn't even look that bad. it's pretty much the exact hand position you have while texting.

[lament dock]

This is true. Thumbs and fingers are sort of supposed to bend.

[jovial cobalt]

uh huh, totally normal hand contorsion

look I'm a backer of the DMG, not trying to hate here

but you can't just hand wave issues away when they exist

[vivid cypress]

apparently you can when you are THIS sexy

[candid canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/hot-gif-11085897

Contort me baby.

[brave knot]

that's pretty much what my left hand looks like if i'm two handed typing on my phone. honestly don't see what the issue is.

[lament dock]

Indeed. That's how I am typing right now 🤣

[brave knot]

i would honestly be concerned if you have issues making that rough c shape with your hand....

[tame heron]

Whether the ergos are “good enough” are obviously subjective and will vary person to person. More inset to follow the natural shape of your thumb as it pivots would obviously be better though.

[brave knot]

how can you claim ergos are subjective and then immediately after claim that something is objectively better?

[tame heron]

Where the “good enough” line rests is subjective

That doesn’t mean there’s no such thing as more or less ergonomic devices lol

The NES controller is objectively less ergonomic than the snes one but obviously at the time we decided it was “good enough”

[humble osprey]

tell that to whoever designed the pocket micro

[brave knot]

if you're comparing something objectively, from a scientific perspective, it should be a comparison where you have some discrete measure. from a layman's perspective, an objective comparison is something devoid of personal opinion. neither of which can be said when comparing the comfort aspect of ergonomics since comfort is purely subjective.

[tame heron]

No

Ergonomics is an actual field of study

It is not something that has to be pure math or doesn’t exist

[brave knot]

i know it's a field of study. i'm specifically talking about the comfort aspect which is a subjective portion of the field. we're not arguing about whether or not you can use the device more efficiently here

[lament dock]

I'm not convinced vertical handhelds stick ergo are a vastly researched area of study

[brave knot]

there is no objective measure of comfort because by definition, comfort differs from person to person

[tame heron]

It’s pretty well known that following the natural curve of movement when rotating your thumb is better than keeping it scrunched up for extended periods, that’s why every gamepad known to man insets the dpad or stick (whichever is on bottom) rather than puts them directly on top of each other, unless they’re prioritizing small size over ergo.

If you can prove otherwise Sony will pay you a lot of money to design the PlayStation 6 pad

[brave knot]

i mean, i can point to the DMG thumbstick and pretty definitely prove a gamepad exists where it's not inset lol

[tame heron]

Handhelds are not gamepads and usually have shittier ergo than gamepads in order to fit in a handheld form

[brave knot]

you're trying to justify a design decision by listing examples of previous examples. and not the design decisions behind it.

[tame heron]

I have explained the decision behind it

When you rotate your thumb it makes a circle

Not a line up and down

[brave knot]

i mean...you can move your thumb up and down as well. unless you're not able to for some reason

[tame heron]

Ergonomic design is about designing products to suit the natural movement of our bodies in order to minimize stresses on our bodies

[lament dock]

It's a vertical. The most the stick is going to move is 1cm or whatever.

The question is just whether that 1cm makes a noticable difference to people.

I would suggest, probably not.

[brave knot]

lol today i learned that moving my thumb up and down is unnatural

[tame heron]

Most comparisons done between the 351v and 40xxV disagree with you there

Insetting the stick there on the same size device made it better

[lament dock]

There's more differences between those devices than stick placement.

[humble osprey]

I normally use the heel of my thumb anyway because most of these devices are too small

is it called the heel? or is there another name for it

the underside of the metacarpophalangeal joint

[lament dock]

Yes, that's definitely the term most people use. The metacarphuffle joint

[humble osprey]

oh wait it's the proximal interphalangeal joint, I was mistaken

[tame heron]

And yet the stick placement in particular is compared favourably by every comparison I’ve seen made by anyone who has both

[tame heron]

I’ve also used both inset and non-inset verticals

The inset is better

I’m not saying it’s mandatory but it helps

[humble osprey]

using this aggressively watermarked image as an example, I would press X and Y (or its PS equivalent) with my thumb properly, but A and B usually get the proximal interphalangeal treatment

and even with the sticks as inset as they are, I don't normally bend my thumb to accomodate

[tame heron]

if the sticks were inline with the other controls would you just smash them around with the ball of your thumb?

[humble osprey]

between these two examples, I'm more inclined towards the latter

so to answer your question, if it weren't inset it would be considerably less comfortable lol

can only image how bad it'd be if I were the type to want to bend my thumb

[radiant plank]

I was curious about the game display size if you don't care about integer scaling. So I've quickly added a tab in my yesterday excel file. Here, overscan makes little sense since you may overscan on any handheld by the same proportion.

Synthesis for non integer scaling (weighted averages)

EDIT : typo mistake in the console sizes. At the end, display to body ratios are 39%, 31% and 31%.

[brave knot]

that's interesting you're considering display size relative to the size of the entire handheld

what sort of conclusions are you trying to draw there? i don't hink i ever considered it

[radiant plank]

With no integer scaling, despite a 0.22" larger screen, the RP Mini only looses 0.1" of actually displayed size for games, the screen is better used and the display to body ratio incresases.

People often calculate screen-to-ratio percentages but for emulation, it does make very little sense since not every emulator uses the whole screen. At the end, the only size which matters is that of the game, not of the screen. Hence all these calculations.

In particular, when you like integer scaling, you add a constraint and an apparently large screen may prove very poor due to an odd resolution. Typically here, the RPMini is very nice without integer scaling and it competes well with the DMG, but the latter is way better for integer scaling. I tend not to trust too lazy intuitions and I prefer do the maths.

[brave knot]

makes sense. appreciate you for doing all this lol, more numbers is always nice

[jovial cobalt]

this guy maths

[quasi ocean]

Yep. This xls is good stuff

I need to write down this overscan numbers

Btw is Wii 4:3?

[radiant plank]

Yes 4:3 by default. Wii=GC basically.

[tame heron]

Wii is a slightly special case in that later titles were designed for 16:9 and some of them are even 16:9 only, but then it also has some 4:3 only titles in the library too

The only system I’m aware of to need two different screens to avoid black bars on the same damn console lol

[humble osprey]

I have two devices for SNES because I determine aspect ratio on a per-game basis, but I imagine that's probably not typical behavior

[tame heron]

I’d probably just use one device and accept some black bars and/or overscan

The ayaneo pocket dmg screen should be decent at both tbh

5x integer with a bit of vertical overscan for 8:7 games and just go 4:3 with slight black bars and the sharp shimmerless shader on 4:3 games

[humble osprey]

I don't disagree with that

I've had my eye on a 1280x1024 monitor for a while because it's just such a good fit for so many things

[tame heron]

Me too except most of them have shit colour and response time 😦

[humble osprey]

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/picade-max

I wonder what panel they're using in this

[brave knot]

interesting they recommend that panel. i have an arcade box built and i just have a large widescreen monitor. the extra real estate is really nice to run game specific overlays. https://www.verticalarcade.com/

[candid canyon]

I'm still at a loss here

[quasi ocean]

@thick pagoda

[thick pagoda]

nice Pica de Max!

[quasi ocean]

Why are you waking up so early?

[thick pagoda]

for work 😔

[quasi ocean]

damn. you need to relax

[thick pagoda]

I'm relaxing and working

[quasi ocean]

What do you mean? I didn't understand

[thick pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/jailson-mendes-quer-relaxar-fight-act-item-gif-11764478

[radiant plank]

With my calculations above, I've concluded that when it comes to integer scaling, the DMG screen is great. But I've run experiments whith shaders a few minutes ago and I'm unsure that in 2024, integer scaling remains as important as before. I've posted a few messages on the RPM thread #1276840395430694923 message and it appears that there are now very impressive CRT shaders which deal with non integer scaling.

If you are unsure why CRT shaders matter, let me post here two 960p screenshots with non integer scaling, with and without a CRT shader. What do you want to play ?

[brave knot]

i think crt shaders definitely isn't distinguishable from integer scaling for most users. i personally don't even think either is necessary in a lot of situations with a high enough resolution. i will point out that applying shaders even with very overpowered chips will have a performance decrease when running things like modern arcade games or gba romhacks with ff/rw.

[radiant plank]

My point was that CRT shaders usually work better with integer scaling (less artifacts). The only reason to use integer scaling would have been specifically for CRT shaders. In the pictures above, the left is with a CRT shader and the right is with bandlimit-pixel, which is arguably one of the best interpolation shader (sharp yet near perfect Megaman bars). If one wants flat square pixels, integer scaling does really not matter, even on 640x480 screens.

My point was more CRT vs flat pixels. Who would like to play with the rendering on the right while they have the screen and the SoC to run the game as on the left ? 🙂

[dry comet]

The one with the CRT shader and it's absolutely no contest

[brave knot]

iono, both sides the pixel clarity looks fine. mimicking the crt look for the scanlines is personal preference.

[radiant plank]

The point of CRT shaders is not scanlines. The devs and artists back in the days had to deal with limited power and colors. So they used dithering with in mind that the CRT would produce additional colors for better gradients and transparency. The intent of the pixel artists was absolutely not to display this dithering. They spent hours to fine tune everything so it blends at some places but other details remain sharp. CRTs are indistinguishable from pixel art. No CRT, no art.

[humble osprey]

CRT dithering discussion always reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/s4QOHe4bOZc

[brave knot]

dithering is a part of CRT shaders, but so is scanlines which is also present in the screenshot you posted. if dithering is a concern, there is an entire directory of just purely dither effect shaders in retroarch.

[brave knot]

my point is that both shader examples you provided in the comparison serve to balance out the pixels in an non-integer scaled resolution. besides that, everything else that comes with various crt shaders are subjective. the left side image, the only noticeable effect when looking at it on my phone and held at arms length is the fake banding effect. the dithering for both isn't noticeable for me until i zoom in on your image.

[radiant plank]

The left one is CRT and indeed, dithering is hardly noticeable at arm length, which is precisely the point. On the right is the bandlimit-pixel one, with disgraceful dithering very obvious at arm length.

[brave knot]

I'm saying both images, the dithering isn't noticeable unless you specifically zoom and look for it.

at the end of the day, even if there is a difference, i'm not sure why you are saying things like "No CRT, no art" or describing something as disgraceful. This is the same argument for playing snes at 4:3 or 8:7.

some devs at the time definitely tailored their games to the potential hardware that their games would be displayed at with either extra pixels to be cropped, or using fancy pixel art tricks to add additional graphic effects like you mentioned. but there are also plenty of devs that didn't, where the addition of a CRT shader on modern displays is just purely for nostalgia instead of function.

trying to claim that playing certain games a certain way isn't the true experience seems kind of unnecessarily snobbish. it's like trying to tell people they're wrong for playing a modern game without bloom or with HDR turned off.

[dry comet]

I saw it immediately without zooming in at all 🤷‍♂️

[radiant plank]

@brave knot I can understand that one doesn't like CRT shaders and prefer sharp square pixels without blooming or motion oprimization : just the straight succession of straight frames. That's indeed a matter of taste.

But nearly all games on Genesis, many on Saturn, some on SNES, plus others, used dithering and it was absolutely not meant to be displayed. That's more a matter of fact. And in all honesty, it is really super obvious on a phone at arm lenghth. Impossible not to notice.

Good news : there are also non-CRT shaders that deal with dithering such as dithering/mdapt for instance.

I don't like the clinical look (and that's indeed a matter of taste) but they do a good job giving justice to the devs/designers.

[delicate yoke]

Maybe late to party, is anyone actually gonna buy this. Please no rich guy answers.

[quasi ocean]

Currently 512 backers

It's niche in a niche hobby but probably best vertical handheld for quite a while

Good SoC, screen and battery. Remains to be seen if analog will be comfortable to use

[lament dock]

Honestly, that's about double what I thought this thing was going to get.

But I think this is the best candidate around for still being the best handheld of its type in ten years time.

[quasi ocean]

10 years is a lot... Perhaps a couple of years

And even when it's surpassed it shouldn't be by much

[lament dock]

I mean best vertical with a trackpad + stick combo.

Will be a while before something beats that

[delicate yoke]

It is trying to compete with Analog Pocket I guess with brute force RAW power . Nothing else

[brave knot]

i'm getting it, best vertical atm

[delicate yoke]

All the power to you man, I have RG35XX H. Running Doom 3 port on it. Then trying to play even SNES after PC ports feels so silly

SD 8 G3x G2 must be 5x-8X powerful as H700

[brave knot]

don't even know how mucn more powerful it is. and tbh i'm mostly going to be playing retro rpgs on this thing lol. SNES-PS1, might try PS2.

[quasi ocean]

Ah yeah. No one else seems to consider trackpad for Android

Imo has great value as it work as r analog and if it works with winlator that's a great 4:3 x86 emulation device

[quasi ocean]

Should run the whole library, except games that the emulator itself can't run

[brave knot]

yea not super concerned about power, more about the ergo of using the stick/touchpad

[radiant plank]

That's indeed what kept me away from this DMG which looks otherwise fantastic. Its obviously a refined product. To a lower extent, the lack of analogue triggers was also a concern.

[old stone]

https://i.imgur.com/y4objn2.png what if dual touch pad super pocketable

and removed that rgb tumor thing on the lower right

[tame heron]

centre the touch area and put select and start on either side of it instead of pushing it all to the bottom left corner

[old stone]

https://i.imgur.com/soBOQLQ.png https://i.imgur.com/NxVrxCS.png

[tame heron]

YESSSS

[dry comet]

Soooooo much better

[keen eagle]

I keep going back and forth about refunding or not, I was convincing myself to get the RP mini but I kept thinking about my original reasons for wanting the DMG, it really is the vertical form factor that does it for me but the price is eyewatering for what is essentially a 0.1 inch gain...

I keep telling myself it really comes down to the DMGs bigger battery and the guaranteed performance for consoles beyond N64/DC 😵‍💫 the stick really does nothing for me and I guess the trackpad is a unique gimmick but I don't really see it being used heavily by me unless I'm overlooking something hehe

[quasi ocean]

Trackpad should be a really nice addition to x86 emulation

If it works as expected

Mini is a much better price/performance ratio. Tho DMG is looking really nice. Specially retro edition

[keen eagle]

fortunately my first gameboy wasn't a dmg looking one so the nostalgia doesnt draw me in at all, therefore I opted for the cheapest option in black

[quasi ocean]

Mine neither. Still it's probably the best looking handheld I ever seen

Mini is the smartest choice when it comes to price. But for 339$ base DMG isn't bad

[brave knot]

I think for hobbies like retro handhelds, the saying buy once cry once is kind of applicable. If the DMG does everything you need it to do, sacrificing some functionality to save a buck seems kind of silly. Like there are plenty of situations where budgeting is good and necessary, but if none of those apply to you here, just get the DMG.

[quasi ocean]

You're right. If it's going to fulfill your needs

[vocal stag]

Simply removing the joystick doesn't suddenly change it's ability to be pocketed or not. I'd say losing the joystick for folks who would actually use it would not be worth it. It does look pretty cool though without the joystick.

[keen eagle]

oh yeah have they confirmed if its touch screen or nah or are you meant to just use the trackpad?

[quasi ocean]

Yeah touchscreen

[merry patrol]

ordered a base model in black. I mean I was going to order an analogue pocket again and this wasn't that much more expensive..

[keen eagle]

sorry brothers but I refunded my base model, just couldnt justify the price tag vs my use case

I'll await for the second revision or a spiritual successor

[autumn jolt]

I originally ordered this just to review it. But the idea of it being endgame vertical is growing on me. Very curious about how it will compare to the rp mini. I mean obviously performance is more but just in other aspects.

[keen eagle]

my conclusion was simple; I want a 4:3 device and the DMG is a faux 4:3 with its odd aspect ratio, while technically a larger screen it doesn't actually scale so effectively with most systems besides NES/SNES/GB and I just told myself I don't really need this much power to play that trifecta so... the cheaper alternative just makes that much more sense to me hehe

and then the fact I do have more faith in retroid as a brand whilst it would have been my first try with ayaneo, they seem to get fairly roasted by the community which did initially put me off a bit in the case that there were too few of these DMGs in circulation for there to be support in the future given the premium price that would've been a nightmare hehe

[proud current]

i know this is an old ass message but fuck this rules

[old stone]

id buy it if it was dual trackpads. ayaneo needs to go ALL IN

[fathom plinth]

This thing is pretty slick regardless