hivescum-class

[stray mulch]

but yeah

if we do missing i think that's right

but toughness always depletes on damage by the value it's struck by

at least this was what i learned

its a smaller damage amount

[mighty belfry]

The question is, is the extra toughness you're being given by toughness curios enough to circumvent the health loss, with the worse toughness returns compared to a higher health pool with lower toughness investment?

[stray mulch]

well when this calc is done it becomes easier to test

the answer already looks to be yes

based on how much you are regenerating

[mighty belfry]

In regular play, yes. It is.

[stray mulch]

it wont matter for ragers

but in general i think it would

because most hits will actually be affected by tdr

and dr

from talents

it's another layer of math that amplifies the value for the toughness it self

[supple jasper]

What weapons yall runnin now a days?

[stray mulch]

In Darktide, Toughness Damage Reduction (TDR) reduces the damage your blue toughness bar takes from attacks.

this is why iron will is frigin broken

[supple jasper]

Is crowbar worth smacking with

[mighty belfry]

It's different in havoc because the debuffs to health and toughness cause a discrepancy between the returns of both health and toughness.

[stray mulch]

on the 1st hit iron will will see 54 damage and just half it

54 x .5 = 27

[zenith fern]

Very meh melee

[stray mulch]

95 - 27 = 68

[supple jasper]

Sad to hear. i heard it was buffed so i had hopes

[stray mulch]

68\95 = .7156

71.56%

[zenith fern]

Very small buffs that I don't think changed much the overall stats

It is still useable though

[low harbor]

@stray mulch fixed math

[mighty belfry]

Because of how toughness is flatly cut as opposed to health being cut by percentage, as well as just having a higher base health, the numerical returns from health bonuses are far more significant there.

[stray mulch]

at this % of toughness the next 54 damage has a .2843 modifyer

[low harbor]

health still pulls ahead slightly

[stray mulch]

54 (.2843) = 15

no

after reviewing the maths it doesnt

i can fully calculate the combo total damage to hp now

and it will be applicable to all tdr and dr values in game

the reason why iron will is and will always be busted is because of how it works with toughness

[zenith fern]

I remember playing rampage crowbar with bottom left stimm and just light and heavy spam into horfed

Was hilarious and addicting

[stray mulch]

with what you provided if the math was done right the total would be 77.3 damage to hp

that is a lot

and it's not recommended to forgoe DR because of this

toughness amplifies all types of DR

and benefits you health's longevity

especially in the ways yall were talking about it

if you can keep it up

you will keep taking less and less hp damage

unless pierced

if on rampage with HCB and 3 stacks of Chem Dependency you are getting 60% dr

54(.4) = 21.6

95 -21.6 = 73, you have that much toughness to continue working with

75.4 + 9.5 = 82

82/95 = .8947

100 -89.47 = 10.53

54(.1053) = 5.6862

that would be the damage you took to hp on the 2nd hit with just the stuff hive scum has

and it would be less with more toughness

i just want to vent my frustration in trying to explain this earlier, nothing against yall

[low harbor]

with iron will
first hit -27t (IW active, 9.5+95-27 = 77.5 > 0.75x95, IW active for next hit), 0 health dmg
second hit -27t (IW active, 9.5+77.5-27 = 60 < 0.75x95, IW deactivates), health dmg = 36(1-(77.5/95)) = 6.63
third hit -54t (IW not active), health dmg = 36(1-(60/95)) = 13.263
total health dmg 19.895 (20.4% of max hp)

with +21% health, this is 15.42% of max hp

with +17% toughness, total toughness 111.15
first hit -27t (IW active, 11.115+111.15-27 = 95.265 > 0.75x111.15, IW active for next hit), 0 health dmg
second hit -27t (IW active, 11.115+95.265-27 = 79.38 < 0.75x95, IW deactivates), health dmg = 36(1-(95.265/111.15)) = 5.145
third hit -54t (IW not active), health dmg = 36(1-(79.38/111.15)) = 10.29
total health dmg 15.435 (15.83% of max hp)

so health still pulls ahead by a very small percentage
@stray mulch

[zenith fern]

https://tenor.com/view/the-croods-grug-i-have-an-idea-rock-hitting-head-gif-4749519154858206022

[stray mulch]

IW doesnt deactivate on the hit that would put it below the threshold

again i did the math right

[low harbor]

yea my math includes it

on a 1-to-1 comparison, in the best case for toughness & worst case for health, health still pulls ahead very slightly

[stray mulch]

only when you arent generating toughness

or enough of it

[low harbor]

my math here has +10%/s applies for every atk after the first

[stray mulch]

which if you remember the chat's claims

yall 100% are generating enough right?

or are yall getting dogged on by ragers the ENTIRE time?!

[low harbor]

well vet in comabt gets like

40%/s

lol

[stray mulch]

even on this class

[low harbor]

in which case toughness amount kinda doesn't matter

[stray mulch]

that was JUST ragers

[low harbor]

for melee

[stray mulch]

which is not the majority of cases

[low harbor]

because u will either explode

or take basically no chip

or straight up no chip

[stray mulch]

and you arent only generating toughness from TBAS or PV

melee kills as well and etc

[low harbor]

I for one never said health is strictly better than toughness

I just said toughness is not as good as people like to think it is

and on a 1-to-1 comparison, health is better than toughness

which my math (corrected) has shown above

[stray mulch]

on paper

[lucid siren]

Ngl crowbar pretty fun

[low harbor]

in practice also

[lucid siren]

[low harbor]

because the truly threatening things don't rly care abt toughness

ur never gonna have enough toughness (without gold) to tank a silent burster

[stray mulch]

this can't possibly be speaking from a stand point where you are actually taking defensive talents right?

because now we can go back to the sniper incident

and talk about dr

as well as multiple hits

[low harbor]

what are u trying to imply here

if ur saying toughness > health on a 1-to-1 comparison, that is false

[stray mulch]

not once did i say that

[low harbor]

so what exactly are u saying

I never mentioned snipers?

I only ever brought up bursters

[stray mulch]

but if you scroll up you can se me double down here, health is not better than toughness

[low harbor]

is this wrong?

[stray mulch]

ESPECIALLY if you are claiming to be generating "enough"

[low harbor]

if u generate enough, toughness total amount starts to matter less, because ur largely looking at 100% toughness vs every melee attack that doesn't have spillover

so the bleedthrough never really happens

in which case neither +% toughness nor +% health rly matter

like, here
10 dreg ragers, neither health nor toughness actually matter because even with the 1 hit I take at the very end I'm immediately at 100% toughness anyway

[low harbor]

where did the 86 come from?

[stray mulch]

68 typo

68+9.5 = 77.5

if that helps

but you are still doing it wrong if you got more than 5 (rounded up) on the 2nd hit

[low harbor]

with +17% toughness

[stray mulch]

now you are doing the math right

see?

[low harbor]

yea this is base vs extra toughness

this is base (+21% health)

[mighty belfry]

Just wish it was better

[low harbor]

lose 15.422% health (+21% health)
lose 15.83% health (+17% toughness)

so health pulls ahead by small percentage

[lucid siren]

For everything melee theres Rampage

[stray mulch]

again, i already said that on paper health is better, i then made sure to say that if you guys are ''generating enough toughness'' like what was stated, then you wouldnt need health more than toughness

if you have ''good'' toughness generation toughness is better

[low harbor]

yea but in practice health is also better

[stray mulch]

in MOST instances

[stray mulch]

in less cases than toughness

[low harbor]

no?

[mighty belfry]

Okay. Actually. What games are you playing where you're taking absolutely no pure health damage to not understand the practicality of having more of it?

[stray mulch]

because the situations where you would run into the ''threatening'' instances in whci you speak are statistically smaller than the ones where you wouldnt

there are more gunners, walkers and chaff in general, than there are ragers

crushers

etc

you would have to be blind not to see all gunners, walkers, bruisers and others on your screen

[low harbor]

if dmg spillover, toughness doesn't matter, health better
if dmg normal, toughness replenishment sufficient, neither matters
if dmg normal, toughness replenishment insufficient (health chip occurs), health better vs melee (at least 1-to-1, on paper)

[stray mulch]

and daft to act as if you never get hit or put in bad situations by getting hit by one

[low harbor]

what other case is there?

[stray mulch]

if taking multiple hits while still generating toughness with dr, toughness is better

TOUGHNESS BREAKING IS BAD

NOT TAKING DR IS BAD

IF YOU ARE TAKING DR AND TOUGHNESS GENERATION TAKE TOUGHNESS

[low harbor]

no? that's case 3 in which case we just proved that health is better on paper in a 1-to-1 comparison

[stray mulch]

no such thing as normal damage btw

.>

[low harbor]

I'm too lazy to type bleedthrough twice

[stray mulch]

matter of fact. I'll stop there and say, they both fine

HP not better, but im not gunna have ppl say toughness is worse

[mighty belfry]

Toughness is worse

[low harbor]

but we just proved that it is (by a small percentage) worse on a 1-to-1 comparison

??

[stray mulch]

realistically, there are too many variables and the matter is subjective enough for pple to continue ignoring obvious factor in favor of one's they prefer

[mighty belfry]

Fatscum lives once more!

[stray mulch]

even when using wrong math

[low harbor]

but the math is right

??

[stray mulch]

ive said it multpiple times that on paper sure

especially with only a few variables

because there really were just a few variables

[low harbor]

yea, it is better?

[stray mulch]

and only a situation that would favor the use of hp was tested

we gunna ignore that too?

[low harbor]

this is a lotta excuses lol

[stray mulch]

nah no excuses

just stating what was tested

[low harbor]

is this not reality?

[stray mulch]

and doubling down on the fact that ive said it's better on paper

[mighty belfry]

I feel like this fixation on this one test is not accounting for pretty much

[stray mulch]

aye man

[mighty belfry]

The entire game basically

[stray mulch]

you used multiple insteances of wrong math to help your case

and it did not show much knowing

[low harbor]

but u confirmed the new math is right tho

[stray mulch]

and i was sure to say on paper it's better

and that it would be good if i were wrong that it was worse, but its hard to say something is worse when the experiment that was set to test it obviously favored the opposition, now isn't that right?

[low harbor]

what favouring

[low harbor]

weren't we testing for case 3 here

I never said toughness bad

[stray mulch]

a situation where you ARE going to take multiple hit's that DO get through toughness, obviously does NOT favor TOUGHNESS

unless that makes no sense

[low harbor]

I just said toughness not as good as people think

[low harbor]

yea but that's also like the only case where health doesn't have as clear of an advantage in the cases I listed

[stray mulch]

but you were sure until the proper math was applied

.>

[low harbor]

yea and then proper math proved me right

I was outside getting coffee sorry my initial maths were wrong

I should memorize DT source code entirely

and it's honestly kinda funny that u haven't reached the next conclusion from the proper maths

[stray mulch]

No need, if you have math problems HMU though

[low harbor]

which is that, given +17% toughness, the 2nd hit's dmg on toughness left it at ~71% which is really close to iron will's 75% threshold
meaning that, with just a bit more toughness investment, it'll be active for 1 more hit, which should theoretically make it pull ahead more vs health for those initial hits

but on a flat 1-to-1 comparison health does on paper pull ahead

this doesn't mean running health maxxing is the best way to go tho obv

[mighty belfry]

You can't tell me what to do Path!!!

Watch as I will throw myself at five poxbursters

And LIVE

[low harbor]

u will learn to appreciate toughness a bit more when there're 3 stalkers blasting at u trying to get a revive off

[mighty belfry]

I know. I know.

I don't health maxx as much as I did before

#hivescum-class message this will never not be funny though

[mighty belfry]

Also to be fair

If three stalkers were able to get a Salvo on you during a revive

At least in havoc

There's a good chance you're just gonna die.

No matter what you're using

[jovial heron]

Noooooo fat scum meta…..

[low harbor]

I do think toughness stacking is very justified given sufficient investment

[jovial heron]

Yeah I stack a little of both. I am in my 3 stamina curios phase so it’s just 15% 15%

[low harbor]

Triple stam has been and always will be meme

[jovial heron]

Yeah I have fun with it even in havocs

[low harbor]

It’s a pretty funny meme tho

[jovial heron]

https://tenor.com/view/one-peak-one-piece-one-piece-cry-its-so-peak-gif-13413926760013023520

[bronze crown]

3X 17+ Toughness with special regen, ally rev speed and + more toughness.

[low harbor]

And die to 1 single silent burster

[stray mulch]

i mean if you're john darktide, then let it rock

[jovial heron]

As has been discussed. Bursters don’t give a fuck about toughness

The ally rev speed is pretty based

[stray mulch]

ally rev speed always sits at 24%

[bronze crown]

SuperHansfromPeepShow.gif

[mighty belfry]

18% attack speed funny

[jovial heron]

Yeah I wished I still had it the other day. 20 collective rescues, revives, and players helped before even finishing the mid event

[jovial heron]

Doesn’t it count base stamina?

[low harbor]

Yes

[mighty belfry]

Should have clarified

[stray mulch]

yes but +9 translates to +18%

[mighty belfry]

EXTRA attack speed

[low harbor]

Which gives Rashad a total of +24% atk speed from swift endurance

[jovial heron]

This guy axes

[low harbor]

Which is kinda too op even for my taste

[jovial heron]

Yes but +3 base stamina is more than 18%

https://tenor.com/view/i-can-do-that-too-justin-we-love-our-kids-but-the-mighty-mcclures-i-can-work-it-too-gif-26194220

[mighty belfry]

3 +3 Stam curios result to 18% extra attack speed

[stray mulch]

total yeah, but the assumption from me was that the mention was only considering the total from the curios

[mighty belfry]

On top of the current bonus from your base

[jovial heron]

Nononono say it again but use different words

[stray mulch]

my bad

[jovial heron]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-krusty-krab-crawling-crawl-fish-gif-12745135769617083309

[zenith pagoda]

Is Fatshark on holiday or something

[soft zinc]

i just played hive scum and whenever i press F to drop the medicae crate, the game crashed...

GUID: ad60ea92-a376-40b6-ac62-6a9e00b8fc97 Log File: Info Type: ----------------------------------------------- [Script Error]: scripts/managers/localization/localization_manager.lua:323: bad argument #2 to 'lookup' (string expected, got nil) ----------------------------------------------- [Crash Link]: crashify://ad60ea92-a376-40b6-ac62-6a9e00b8fc97

[mighty belfry]

Do you have Scoreboard?

[soft zinc]

yes i do

[mighty belfry]

Update it. You gotta go to the modding Discord to get the new version.

[soft zinc]

the new version is not available on nexus?

[mighty belfry]

At least it wasn't when I did it.

Might have changed.

[soft zinc]

thx. i will try to update it

[soft zinc]

there is an update for scoreboard this morning on nexus. I just installed it and it still crashed when i drop medicae crate...

[mighty belfry]

Mind a DM?

[soft zinc]

sure

[mighty belfry]

I do have the file directly from the modder's Discord

[low harbor]

is it from backup

I think he has the newest version

with packmaster, armored hound, plasma gunner, and the scoreboard position settings

[mighty belfry]

Yeah.

It was the fix shortly after the patch.

[bronze glade]

someone needs to just make a definitive scoreboard mod lol

[cerulean crane]

stubbies any good or does needle pistol solo

[jovial heron]

they are good for special sniping and for killing elites at range like ragers but needle pistol is very good for boss damage and damage on carapace. Can in a pinch kill packed tight mobs

[viral pawn]

can i get that too?

[lilac crystal]

four standards
new standard
five standards

[lilac schooner]

they were good on desperado builds, but they nerfed it to the ground

[spice cloud]

They buffe them lmao

[lilac schooner]

I prefer combat shotty/bolt pistol for melee builds though

[lilac schooner]

I should specify, they nerfed desperado build

not the guns

[spice cloud]

Thats just not true they even buffed the stubs

[spice cloud]

Really? How so?

I wasnt aware of any nerfs

[lilac schooner]

are we going to go through this again? they nerfed pickpocket

[mental igloo]

lol

[spice cloud]

U mean they fixed it?

[lilac schooner]

"fix" or nerf it's weaker than before

[spice cloud]

I do not care mate ts is not nerfed

HS is broken

There is not a single thing that got weaker

[lilac schooner]

Yup, but they took out ranged HS brokeness

[spice cloud]

U still have infinite ammo

[spice cloud]

No

U still have infinite ammo

Just use desperado maybe?

[low harbor]

barely a slap on the wrist

[lilac schooner]

I don't think it's as havoc viable anymore, it's as if they would require psyker to melee elites/specials to regain use of peril

[low harbor]

nah it's a super light nerf at best

needs a lengthy internal cooldown on it still

[lilac schooner]

I haven't even seen a HS run desperado since then lol melee hs is just way better

[bronze glade]

lol

[paper bay]

any havoc40/duo updated builds? havent played scum this patch yet

[lilac schooner]

its pretty much the same

[paper bay]

my builds broke i need to remake them

but i dont remember wtf my builds were 😄

[lilac schooner]

something like this you can mess with the few extra talents you dont need to path with

[paper bay]

thanks seems similar

i dont take chem depend with long lasting or even without stimm supply i think those synergized but its close

did Alley Rat and Nimble change i thought distance was together with speed/time

but look like distance is separate now 🤔

i dont like hyper-violence and hyper-critical together, they negate eachother

[lilac schooner]

its purple so you have to choose one or the other

yeah they changed it

[paper bay]

got it

so i didnt take hyper-crit and, leaves me 1 point to spend on ummmm

Splash Damage? 🤔

lemme see what else is there

Chanelled Devastation could be cool

[lilac schooner]

I've tested it in the psykanium is still doesn't add a whole lot of damage to crushers

[paper bay]

Slippery Customer would be nice i slide a lot

basically lots of good options left

or Jittery

oh Maxed Out Chems with a quick stimm thats a good option too

the beautyf of Maxed Out Chems is that even if you drop from the maximum 4, using a stimm brings you back to 4

so its not difficult to maintain max even if you dont spam it as soon as its off cooldown

[lilac schooner]

It's also good, I just like spending the point elsewhere

[bronze crown]

I know It is heresy but scavenged Fleshgrinder Cult cosmetics would be so badass.

[mighty belfry]

honestly i feel that's more because desperado scum is just

boring

[lilac schooner]

I think it's more that even before the nerf they're hard countered by armor which is spammed on havoc esp rotten armor

gun hs was fun imo

[stray mulch]

WHAT?!

anything thats scales off of killing specials and elites has more use cases in settings that spawn more of said enemies

Same how psykinetic aura gets more and more uptime the higher in difficulty you go. The amount of targets increasing allows for more opportunity to proc it

you might be the same kind of person who though survivalist aura was perfect the way it was before the changes.

that's a bit rough

[ashen osprey]

Not seeing a ton of incentive to use the bonesaw
Particularly in the blessings

[spice cloud]

Shock and awe is a good blessing

[ashen osprey]

Remind me what hitmass does?

[spice cloud]

Its enemy resistance to ur melee or ranged attacks

Like how many u can cleave

[manic wolf]

It's kinda just rough to play

Doesnt make a great use of Scum's kit

Its also slow as molasses

Which is not fantastic given, again, Scum's kit kinda thrives off being able to attack quickly

Even as a DoT stick its not very good because everything can do that if you build for crits

[spice cloud]

Yeah it needs blessings and perks to be good enough

But it can be decent

The dot is honestly the best thing about it

With the new chem explosions

[manic wolf]

I would put it as the lowest of Scum's weapons personally, but ymmv

[spice cloud]

Crowbar

[manic wolf]

Crowbar at least attacks fast and can make use of Hypercrit regularly

Its also pretty dog, but I would rather play that than Bonesaw

[spice cloud]

But it does no dmg😭

Preference i guess

[manic wolf]

I will always choose a faster weapon with better mobility over a slower one with worse mobility, even if the damage is (marginally) better

Same reason I don't play P'Sword on Vet

[spice cloud]

I see

[manic wolf]

Just feels terrible to play

[spice cloud]

Im the opposite

[manic wolf]

Were that true, you'd be playing Rashad and not Bonesaw 😉

[spice cloud]

I just dont like combat axe on scum

Idk why

[stray mulch]

hitmass is a value each enemy has that gets modified by difficulty. When your attack's hit mass [cleave] is calculated vs an enemy's hit mass, the total of the enemy is deducted from the attack. The is a remainder for the attack is used to check if it moves on to the next target and has its damage affected by cleave values.

[spice cloud]

It feels weird to me with rampage

[keen bridge]

I'm ngl I love the bonesaw but having to alternate between regular and heavy attacks for any horde clear gets on my nerves

[spice cloud]

Push attack heavy heavy repeat

[keen bridge]

Especially when I get staggered and it resets to right swing so I do the wrong one

[spice cloud]

Or lightspam

[manic wolf]

Just play TacAxe

[spice cloud]

I will prolly finally play it on HS

[manic wolf]

Scum makes the best use of it

Its still hugely strong on other classes, but Scum gets the most out of it

[stray mulch]

i dont think swapping on the bonesaw is for hordes

it's just for bosses imo

the time it takes and how it changes ADM isn't worth using the purple toxin over the regular in hordes

imo

[manic wolf]

Bonesaw is for ignoring

Also noone mentioned swapping mode on it

[stray mulch]

might have misread, that's on me

[stray mulch]

rude

it's fun

in a dumb way

[spice cloud]

I never use the swap mode

Its too clunky mid combo

[manic wolf]

If you say so chief

[stray mulch]

i mean some of yall like crowbar, so idk -- i think its a valid take XD

[keen bridge]

Yea even for carapace enemies the DOT does more damage than the boost from the brittleness. I really only use the brittleness against full bosses since I usually just slam my needle pistol for toxin anyways

[spice cloud]

I mean i wont blame people for not liking it

Its not the bestbthats for sure

[manic wolf]

Needle pistol and Bonesaw 🤮 There is no hope for some of you

[stray mulch]

i think this is how it is supposed ot be used, yeah

valid combo

[keen bridge]

It's just funny that you'd assume it's main use is for crushers but then it's actually better just to leave it on tox for them lmfao

[stray mulch]

i think it does kill crushers in a few less heavies

[keen bridge]

Actually does brittleness even boost toxin damage? Cus isn't toxin basically neutral to all armor types

[stray mulch]

maybe like 1 or 2

but, i could just check

[manic wolf]

It's lowest ADM is 0.9, so not really

[stray mulch]

i dont think even swinging at a crusher is worth on the bonesaw though

im more likely to mess up and get pounded before killing one

[manic wolf]

It will boost it, but there isnt really a whole lot of need to given the Tox DoT is already giga-stronk

[keen bridge]

Dunno, I clear them pretty quick on damnation with the perk that makes you do 60% extra weak point damage

[spice cloud]

Thats what u have to use tho cause bonesaw does nothing to cara

[stray mulch]

it's weird

[keen bridge]

Like 2-3 heavy hits and the dot will take the rest, not the fastest but it works fine

[stray mulch]

makes max toxin into carapace and unyielding go from a bas max of 868 to like 1025

[keen bridge]

For crusher hordes I just throw a chem grenade and kite them inside the radius

[stray mulch]

or something similar

[spice cloud]

Yeah it needs needler and chem nade

[stray mulch]

that was just the 15% rending

i still am not sure what the max value on purple toxin is

[manic wolf]

I'm only messing man, I don't like Bonesaw coz its shit, Needlegun is good, but it doesnt turn heretics into soup so it doesnt tickle the Ork brain

[keen bridge]

Needler is actually insanely good I was surprised when I started using it. Even for full on bosses I'm doing at least half their health just by upkeeping the max tox stacks

[spice cloud]

It is

Its very stronk

[keen bridge]

I think it's like 30 or 40%

[stray mulch]

yeah i saw somewhere the other day when i was testing, it being like 37.5%

im not sure the accuracy

or how many stacks is max

[manic wolf]

It's a unique source of Brittleness, so it also stacks with other sources

[keen bridge]

Also does the heavy ripping attack form the bonesaw apply multiple stacks of whatever you have coated? It seems like it does several damage instances

[manic wolf]

So provided your team is kitted for it, you could make armour heavy modifiers a cakewalk just by using purple all the time

[stray mulch]

bosses don't stay alive long after you swing a few purple hits into them

[manic wolf]

Ehh, I'm hesitent to say it does because other weapons with a ripping attack don't count as several on hit damage instances

[lilac schooner]

I haven't seen a decent bonesaw hs yet so I doubt it

[stray mulch]

bones saw doesn't either for blessings. Hopefully that's not the same for toxin

tests!

[paper bay]

how does Unstoppable Force work on crowbar. do i need to hold it down until it releases on its own? or is there a point when its 'fully charged' and i can release manually to save a few frames?

[manic wolf]

Well, thats cos the weapon is bad, but the effect is probably quite useful if you have a team specifically geared for armour busting, because again, its effect stacks with other sources

[keen bridge]

Still can't believe fucking fat shark hasn't added an option in the meat grinder to make stacks of debuffs visible

Would be so incredibly useful

[stray mulch]

so

[manic wolf]

Theres probably a mod for it tbh, in fact, I'm like 95% sure there is one

Idk what its called tho

[paper bay]

theres a mod for that. in fact i have around 50 mods running just to fix things shartfart shouldve done but never bothered

[keen bridge]

Also would y'all say wrath or the blessing that decreases hit mass is better on the bonesaw? I've had trouble deciding which one I wanna run

[keen bridge]

Unfortunately I'm a console gamer

[lilac schooner]

Then again it would only apply to like 2 types of enemies: crushers and bosses

[stray mulch]

looks like each hit applies an extra stack?

[manic wolf]

IIrc it effects everything outside of Unarmoured and Infested, but due to the typical ADM's that weapons have, its not really relevant vs most of them

[lilac schooner]

And typically every other enemy dies before you can stack too much poison on them

[keen bridge]

Ngl I dropped hivescum when they first game out because dual wielding crackhead sounded so mid to me but once I saw they have a dedicated DOT path, with dedicated melee and ranges toxin weapons they immediately became my #1 class

The main reason I played Psyker prior was because of the inferno staff but hive scum is so much more fun

[manic wolf]

Hmm, interesting, doesnt work like that for other weapons

Well yeah, coz Inferno Psyker ignores half the game mechanics

[keen bridge]

At least I'm not any build for Arbites

[stray mulch]

rending on the needle pistol

i don't think its pointless as it scales with a bunch of other damages

[manic wolf]

Almost every experienced player will tell you straight up that Inferno Staff should be reworked because infinite cleave is fucking 'tarded

[stray mulch]

if im right you can get it close to 2k per DoT tick

[manic wolf]

Eh, Arb is alright really, Stagger bot and hard to kill, but not capable of the same damage output as Scum and Psyker can do

Ofc it depends on the player, but all being equal Psyker and Scum would pull way ahead

[lilac schooner]

hs can outdamage psyker pretty consistently now

melee hs is just op

[stray mulch]

im not sure how you are doing more damage purgy venting shriek

they would have to not be trying i feel

[manic wolf]

At least you have to work for your damage with Scum a bit, not as much as you did, but more so that Psyker

No, melee Scum is actually just that capable

[lilac schooner]

a good chunk of damage is probably well placed rockets though on rotten armor

[stray mulch]

we talking about overall on map, or into bosses?

[manic wolf]

Plus you know, RPG, Blackouts wi/Pocket Tox and Chem Nades being some of the all round strongest Bltiz's in the game

[ashen osprey]

On that note, double barrel with maxxed reload speed absolutely tears through crowds

[lilac schooner]

both

[manic wolf]

Yeah, though that'll always be a Vet weapon for me because guaranteed crits for Manstopper turning it into an infinite cleave railgun that bleeds everything that doesnt die

[lilac schooner]

with those sort of close ranged only builds i just always think that purg psyker would do it infinitely better thats why i dislike them

[keen bridge]

I tried the chem blackouts but I never really felt like I was regenerating them fast enough to be useful, especially with how limited the radius feels. Always ended up going back to chem grenades

[manic wolf]

You get them back slower with Pocket Tox because kills from the DoT dont count towards regen, but they do something the class isnt innately good at, in such they give you on-demand stagger, and a lot of it

Honestly, an despite how strong they are, I find Chem Grenades to be the least useful all round for Scum

[keen bridge]

Didn't they change it with like the first patch after scum to make it so DOT counts for close kills?

[manic wolf]

Blackouts are a hugely strong get out of jail free card and the RPG evaporates big armour blobs

[stray mulch]

what are your talents?

are you using hyper crit?

[manic wolf]

Not that I know of

[stray mulch]

no

[lilac schooner]

they did, but blackout grenade dot specifically doesnt apply to itself

[stray mulch]

the needle gun DoT from a shot specifically counts

every other DoT does not count towards blackouts

[keen bridge]

Oh I thought they were just talking about DOT not counting at all

[manic wolf]

No, just the Blackout DoT

[keen bridge]

Yeah when scum first came out dot didn't count at ALL so if you used Bonesaw you were absolutely shafted

[manic wolf]

It's only 20 enemies though anyway, thats pretty trivial to manage

[keen bridge]

And next to none of your melee kills would count because the chem would finish them off most of the time

[ashen osprey]

As far as I'm concerned nothing beats force greatsword

[keen bridge]

True but a short stagger, and killing only non elite enemies is kinda a hard sell against having 15 seconds of every single enemy who lingers in that area getting killed, including crushers if you can hold them there for a few seconds

[stray mulch]

the only DoT that counts is from the needle gun shot

[lilac schooner]

It regens so slow to me I have a suspicion that poxwalkers/groaners dont count

never tested it though so someone let me know if im wrong

[keen bridge]

So...does bonesaw not count then?

Cus if so that's actually insane

[stray mulch]

nope

dies to the DoT, no stack

[keen bridge]

Yeah no wonder the blackouts have felt so ass 😭😭

[stray mulch]

you HAVE to get kills with the melee damage and or shots of the needl pistol

good thing is that the needle pistol can get a full stack in 10 shots

since it can hit 2 targets at a time

[keen bridge]

"hey guys, let's make it so the weapon designed around finishing enemies off with DOT will actively sabotage you if you use 1/3 of the blitz choices"

[stray mulch]

been complaining about this for like 3 days

[keen bridge]

I just realized now looking at the patch notes they specifically mentioned fixing the dot regen for the needle gun

[stray mulch]

dumb design

when soul flame exists and works in next to an identical way with the talents that care for it

[keen bridge]

So it sounds like it's... unfortunately on purpose

It's especially ass when the bonesaw already isn't a super great melee weapon anyways

I love it, but there's definitely better choices

[low harbor]

it's ass because bonesaw is downright abysmal at stagger so without blinders u kinda just get cooked by ragers in melee

lol

[stray mulch]

bones saw has decimator and strength stims if you care for stagger --- not that it's SUPER helpful

[keen bridge]

I don't even bother meleeing rangers anymore I just whip out the needle and tag them

Too many times I've had a rager hit through my swing and take a third of my health, I can spare 6 shots

[low harbor]

don't think it's enough to hit actual rager stagger breakpoints

[stray mulch]

i dont think you care too much about melee when using the Bonesaw though, it's a back up weapon imo

[low harbor]

DT's pseudo RNG is wack waoh

[ashen osprey]

I still cannot believe how much worse it used to be

[stray mulch]

i stagger ragers, but i couldnt tell you the BP and it feels inconsistent, probably because street tough

i need to reanable mods eventually

problem with ragers atm i have, is that i either kill them with 1 heavy, or they are dead before ever reaching me

[low harbor]

wdym

did they use a diff pseudo RNG model before?

for proc chances

[stray mulch]

super head shot reliant

[ashen osprey]

Oh I was thinking of weapon RNG
My bad

[low harbor]

I can tell u, the only bonesaw attack that reliably hits rager stagger is the heavy sticky overhead

[keen bridge]

I'm kinda happy that tox doesn't scale with anything but strength so if you run the needle you don't feel pressured to optimize damage. Having the perk that lets you dodge all ranged damage while sprinting is so fun

[stray mulch]

i know, and i both hate and love it

like it for killing mutants while dodging

hate it for hitting anything else but mutants and bosses

[low harbor]

this means nothing rly
I only check stagger breakpoints while enemies have max stagger reduction

[ashen osprey]

If it was the sticky overhead every time I'd be a little more motivated to use the bonesaw

Any maybe a few extra toxin stacks to the max

[stray mulch]

it wasnt about the stagger why i posted it

[low harbor]

and only on the 2nd tick

lol

[stray mulch]

i posted this because in practice it's been hard for me to figure shit out in live games, because they either always just die, or street tough stuns them

[low harbor]

so u can hit them, do dmg, ur saw is stuck on their head, and they still swing at u, until u pull the saw out

very funny fatshark

[stray mulch]

30 toxin stacks actually does a ton of damage

1147 per tick is not something to scoff at

[keen bridge]

Yeah it melts through basically anything at a decent speed

[stray mulch]

or 1050 ish

and that without run and gun

or max effect of in your face, or the extra 10% from toxin mania. It also doesnt account for brittle stacks from any of the stacking sources or rending

[keen bridge]

Only thing it doesn't destroy is captain shields because well....melee

The bonesaw is actually kinda nice for that the ripping attack does a good chunk to the shields

[stray mulch]

still not sure if quick and deadly works

but it should imo if run n gun does

[keen bridge]

Does anyone know if Captain shields cleanse debuffs when they break? I can't remember

[stray mulch]

from what i remember it does damage to the shield, which is abysmal in number, but doesnt do anything when the shield pops

i could just not be paying attention though

i wouldn't bother using DoTs on the shields, from what i remember the ADM is actually ass

[keen bridge]

You mean toxin? Yeah it does basically jack shit. Just wondering if I can build up 30 stacks so that when the shield breaks they get eaten by it while I'm knocked back

[stray mulch]

worth testing, but i can't use mods yet

[keen bridge]

Are shields classified as their own armor type, and in that case does brittleness...impact it at all?

I haven't really considered it until now

[stray mulch]

and i don't think creature spawner has captains on the list

not back when i used it at least

[keen bridge]

If only fatshark could actually just make this base game

[lilac schooner]

creature spawner has captain

[stray mulch]

3x melee and .5 ranged

[keen bridge]

"hey here's a place to test your gear! Yeah you'll have no enough what debuffs you're applying, you also won't be able to test anything against bosses, hope this helps!"

[stray mulch]

im guessing it's 1x from toxin outside of needle pistol shots

[lilac schooner]

just get mods 😎

[keen bridge]

Does brittleness impact that tho? If I apply it does it make ranged damage do more?

[stray mulch]

worst game systems ive seen in many games

[keen bridge]

Also toxin is definitely not 1X because it barely even damages the bar even at 30 stacks

Even at 30 it doesn't hit the cap on single attack damage that the captain shield has

[lilac schooner]

I don't think so

[keen bridge]

Yeahhh I figured

The shields really are just "eat shit hope you have a fast melee weapon" check

[lilac schooner]

The way the toxin works is it damages him after his shield pops

[stray mulch]

no reasource online that i can find says that it doesnt

brittleness affects armor modifyers in general

so i would assume it affects the void shield

brittleness just has higher value against lower modifiers like carapace and unyielding

[prime cape]

nope

[keen bridge]

Brittleness is like exponential too right? The more terrible a weapon is at that weapon type the more damage brittleness boosts yea?

[prime cape]

void shield enemies have a fixed ratio of damage you can do or rather number of attacks before it pops

[prime cape]

it's armor penetration

[stray mulch]

brittleness is armour pen/reduction

actually just reduction

[prime cape]

40% = take your damage with the enemy armor ADM modifier and reduce by 40%

[lilac schooner]

#ogryn-class message

[low harbor]

no

[stray mulch]

yeah, imagine if this resouce was just given to players

[stray mulch]

ty

bad assumption

[keen bridge]

Wack, I've heard that a ton of times here and on the subreddit

[low harbor]

well, they're wrong as usual

[prime cape]

weapons that absolutely ruin void shields - energy melee weapons, heavy eviscerator, chain special (because it counts every tick from the rev as a separate attack)

[low harbor]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3367063781

[prime cape]

this ☝🏼

[stray mulch]

best way i can explain brittleness is that when the debuff is active on enemies all atacks have that value in rending

rending being the ''extra'' penetration stat

[prime cape]

and also rending counts as armor pen but it's just a damage buff xD

[lilac schooner]

I feel like ps does peanuts on the void shield

[low harbor]

it's not exponential

let's say ur attack has 48.96% ADM vs flak
add 10% rending (self buff) or brittleness (debuff on enemy) and u do 58.96% of ur normal dmg vs flak

[prime cape]

cuz it has only 3 power up attacks 🙁 try the relic blade :3

[low harbor]

same deal lol

it's this at play

u don't even need to bother with activating power sword vs void shield

just light spam

[stray mulch]

^

[prime cape]

yup

[stray mulch]

activating the power up on psword into the shields is actually a waste of time

XD

[low harbor]

the best weapons vs void shield are chainaxe XII and eviscerator XV

[prime cape]

on an unrelated note, has anyone managed to push the pack master off a ledge to 1-shot him yet or nah?

[stray mulch]

i lowkey think shivs are nice into void shields too

spam lights

[prime cape]

yeah cuz u hit em with the

million strikes of death electric boogaloo

xD

[stray mulch]

im tickling you, but faster

[low harbor]

he usually dies by concentrated fire

also he's prob top 2 strongest boss in the game

debatably top 1

[stray mulch]

no but 2 rounds of needle pistol shots kill him after like 2 hits of the BS

[prime cape]

wait...what?! O.o

[lilac schooner]

demonhost included?

[prime cape]

you gave him the Phizer vaccine!

you animals!

kekw

[stray mulch]

the purple toxin on bonesaw needs to be applied, i didnt edit it in

[prime cape]

does it really make THAT much of a difference?

[low harbor]

I don't even consider DH a boss tbh cuz u don't need to fight it anyway

[stray mulch]

yes

even 15% rending changed my DoT values earlier

[low harbor]

the only boss that's at packmaster lvl is like, sword captain

[lilac schooner]

on mortis they sometimes get spawned in as a boss

[stray mulch]

an extra 100 per tick is like 500 extra damage and the more rending you can get on it affects the modifyers

[prime cape]

lemme write that down, tenderize before marinating, got it.

[low harbor]

yea but 1. it's mortis, and 2. it gets melted

packmaster has the most insane debuff in this game yet

don't think they can top this one in a while

[lilac schooner]

if hes as easy to dodge as plogryn hes buns

[prime cape]

that shock thing is fun...he did like an EMP and immediately stopped my ult

[low harbor]

he's easy moveset but u cannot get hit by him

[prime cape]

it's not that he's easy to dodge, he's like velcro, you can't run away

[low harbor]

get hit once = ur fucked

reduce 5~10% sprint speed
increase 100~200% stamina cost (all actions)
reduce 75~150% stamina regen rate
increase 150~300% dodge recovery time
refreshable while active (lasts for 10s)
and all of his attacks (except his charge) apply this debuff

lemme put it into perspective

[lilac schooner]

if you block it do you get debuffed?

[manic wolf]

Not really, they pull you out of absurdly shit scenarios and they're effectively free. You're getting on-demand, unlimited CC

[prime cape]

he also raids your fridge and kicks your cat

[low harbor]

at 2 stack debuff (get hit twice), ur 2-push-cost PA now costs 6 stam

[prime cape]

nasty guy...

[low harbor]

yes

u can only dodge

packmaster might be the only boss in the game that deserves the 4-krak-to-face treatment

[keen bridge]

Well not me because the DOT from the bonesaw doesn't regen blackout grenades and 80% of the time it's what's killing chaff enemies

[manic wolf]

An I certainly wouldnt call Blackouts a short stagger, you can put everything in front of you on their ass

[lilac schooner]

i actually havent gotten around to fighting it yet

[low harbor]

try melee solo it in creature spawner

oh also he has 66k hp (10% more than plague ogryn) and carapace weakspot

[lilac schooner]

the psykanium has undodgeable attacks itd probably be tuff

[low harbor]

and he can see through stealth

[stray mulch]

some of the values i get with just a few toxin applications and stimms. It's not unnoticed as you will be killing things faster with the DoT. I need the mods to check max damage, as i can still have run n gun increasing the damage, toxin mania and max brittle stacks

[low harbor]

he also can't be 1 tapped by stealth zealot because of carapace weakspot

u can cheese him with ranged tho

[lilac schooner]

I heard he dies in 2 needler mags

[zenith fern]

My beloved said that the pack master will be added to regular missions in the next hotfix

[prime cape]

from 1k a tick to 1.4k a tick, did i see right?

[zenith fern]

so can all monsters

[low harbor]

if u kite him forever and keep needling him, yea

[prime cape]

this is giving me psyker with 26 stacks of soulblaze vibes xD

[low harbor]

remember he has dogs

armored hounds have 2.2k hp

carapace head

because why not

[zenith fern]

they still quite an easy target to kill

[prime cape]

that's not a dog, that's a walking battering ram xD

[zenith fern]

and really only spawns one or two

[low harbor]

they take like 2 atks to kill

but they add distraction

[lilac schooner]

I was suprised I saw them in havoc without the packmaster

[zenith fern]

yeah for some reason they spawn in missions

Very rarely

[manic wolf]

I think thats a good thing tbh

more enemy variance

[zenith fern]

Only gets good when they add pack master

and fuck up all players

[keen bridge]

You can only do 4 shots at a time tho for max stacks, so you have to wait for whatever the duration is for tox between every 4

[stray mulch]

869 no mod, 1043 with 20% str, 1173 with 20% str and 15% rending, 1253 with 20%str 15% rending and 3 hits with the purple toxin

it's just not 'nothing' especially since you can keep reapplying toxin stacks while using the the purple mode and kiting

[lilac schooner]

That'll be a while then

[stray mulch]

i can get it past 1500

but the crusher doesnt have the hp to show more than 1 tick of that

[prime cape]

zealot book buff +30%

and something else that would add a big umpf

but what

[keen bridge]

I think it's like 5 seconds and I think(?) the stacks decay on their own timers. It's still a good chunk of damage, enough to where if your team can block you can easily solo any monstrosity

[stray mulch]

vet

can apply more brittle

[prime cape]

red stimm?

yeah but Onslought was only for him, right?

like that unique modifier

only applies to him

...I think?

🤔

[stray mulch]

if it only applied to him it would be rending

brittle is a debuff applied to enemies

[prime cape]

ah

touche, i forgot about that

[stray mulch]

with what i mentioned without the brittle stacks from the bonesaw your ticks will be doing 1294

if running at close range

basically allows drive bys

[prime cape]

hey how's the "buffed" 1911s now?

i haven't been seeing a lot of 'em ingame...seems the buff was more of a pad on the back than anything else

[stray mulch]

the stubbers?

i think only one person here actively uses them atm. I would ask @spice cloud

[prime cape]

yeah,

yeah that's enough of an answer on it's own

xD

[spice cloud]

Hey thats rude

[stray mulch]

how?

we adore you

stimmy whick

[prime cape]

i'm not saying you can't pull it off with style, i'm just saying...compared to...other weapons for those you need a pHD xD

[spice cloud]

They are not like the rest of scums wepaons yeah

More long range

More special sniping

Not as much horde clear

[prime cape]

flat dps build or crit?

[spice cloud]

Damage

But both should work

[prime cape]

flak/maniac?

[spice cloud]

Yeah

[prime cape]

they're strong on mid-level armors

right?

[spice cloud]

Thats waht i usually have on

[spice cloud]

They can deal with flak

But not really cara

[prime cape]

cuz i tried before the patch to take down a Crusher...dude died of embarassment...

[spice cloud]

Bring rockets

[spice cloud]

Use melee tbh

Shivs

With the rending they can kill a crusher but it takes a lot of ammo

[stray mulch]

i always wondered, do you go for the 25% on the tree or 30%? And do you use Float like a Butterfly?

[spice cloud]

I dont have all that in my head

I could make a build

[stray mulch]

the aura, bottom left basic talent and chem dependacny at 3 or 4 stacks

idk the gun's base crit

[spice cloud]

When i use chem dep i use the 4 stacks

[prime cape]

20%

[stray mulch]

my guy

[spice cloud]

Ah yeah i use the damage aura usually

[stray mulch]

respect

[spice cloud]

Wait no

Im not sure with the guns

[stray mulch]

wait really?

[prime cape]

left to right: Ammo refund / melee damage / crit

[stray mulch]

20% + the 10% base from the class?

[prime cape]

yeah 😅

[stray mulch]

oh nah wtf

[prime cape]

and i still can't kill shit with it

[stray mulch]

that's a lot lmao

[prime cape]

i think base ADM should be buffed just a lil' bit more

to get the sweet spot

[stray mulch]

of you get +20% total with 3 stacks of chem dependency then i don;t think the extra stack is worth

assuming thats 30% + 20%

[prime cape]

15% crit with 3 stacks

[stray mulch]

oh my brain died just now

yes okay so it's needed to hit 50%

[prime cape]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-sQRS-Lc9k

[spice cloud]

Honestly the obly guns i use on crushers is needler and maybe spearhead boltgun

[prime cape]

yes

3 needles in the noodle

and he's dead

[stray mulch]

he does deserve this as his theme

[stray mulch]

2 🙂

[prime cape]

fair

[stray mulch]

depending on your buffs im sure

[prime cape]

Mk IV or II?

i use the 4

[stray mulch]

difference for me at least is 2 is efficient killing 3 is for slightly faster killing

i only use this mk and set up because im on blackouts

10 shots into a horde = 1 nade in my pocket

[prime cape]

hmmm...

i thought the perks didn't affect dmg

[stray mulch]

assuming they hit only tagrgets you can pierce

[stray mulch]

run n gun does

it also affects DoT applied byt the saw iirc

[prime cape]

so i use reload speed and stamina xD

Run'n"Gun does?

how?

is it like the Lethal Proximity thing?

[stray mulch]

easier if i just clip it

[prime cape]

it'll do you a disservice cuz i gotta head off to do choress

but i'll see it when i get back

🍻

[stray mulch]

run n gun is close damage

when playing with the needle pistol running and gunning is just peak

plus strip down makes you damn near invincible to all shooters

obviously you need space though

street tough, alley cat and blackouts are what i use because it's fun

[ashen osprey]

(stub pistols should get garaunteed crits from the spin attack)

[stray mulch]

or like +50% for just being cool

would balance it around the tree if it ever got out of hand

[ashen osprey]

I really like the stub pistols they’re just
Not good
And it hurts my soul

[stray mulch]

my feelings towards the bonesaw

[ashen osprey]

if nothing else the brittleness coating needs improvement

It's worse at killing heavies than the tox one

[stray mulch]

1 sec im gunna get on to test this

because in my experience that has not been the case

enough ppl have actually said it for it ot be worth looking into

[ashen osprey]

I haven't fully kitted the bonesaw but just testing it in the psykanium is not promising
Spam tox kills faster than brittleness + secondary

[stray mulch]

in general it just sucks into ogryns

but i dont think the purple coat should be worse than the green

at least that's what i think, it's better to see if it is actually just worse

[ashen osprey]

Certainly feels worse but I COULD be missing something

[stray mulch]

hmm

harder to test because i keep critting

both took 6 hits in 3 different tests

BUT

green i think could kill with the DoT after the 5th

also not sure how long brittleness stacks last, i think im gunna go on a limb as say, green is probably slightly better if you aren't running increased melee damage on the tree

it's also so damn hard to hit the head back to back with all the moving lmao

[mighty belfry]

the major issue with bonesaw regarding the two modes

is the time it takes to switch modes

[stray mulch]

fair

[mighty belfry]

and that brittleness in general isn't that great for anything but crushers really

which, isn't good

[stray mulch]

brittleness is good into monsters

[mighty belfry]

eh

[stray mulch]

brittleness also has the problem where it matters more depending on what you are using

rending in general

[mighty belfry]

It's not all that worth. Unyielding ADMs for most things across the board are pretty good

So brittleness just ends up feeling kinda redundant even for them

[stray mulch]

faster lower damage hits benefit from all types or rending more than the slower attacking weapons usually

look at vet with the IAG

its the application and how you use it, but the rending value is never technically 'bad' on carapace or unyielding

[mighty belfry]

It's not bad. But is it worth it?

Because the issue is

Green mode inflicts toxin

And quite a bit of it

[stray mulch]

i think having my passive damage get a +200 or +400 per second matters

difference between 1100 each second and 1500 each second is not small in DT

closer to 1000 and 1300 most of the time

[stray mulch]

unfortunatley purple mode doesnt bar you form applying toxin

you just have to crit

[mighty belfry]

It's more that the other mode will pretty much do damage to what you're hitting, regardless of the rending you've accumulated on the target because toxin's ADMs

[stray mulch]

and have other ways of getting max stacks

[mighty belfry]

One stack of crit

On the bonesaw

[stray mulch]

so you can stack with the needly pistol and just swing with purple to keep the stacks up while applying brittle

[mighty belfry]

Which is not a very fast attacking weapon

And the toxin ain't even affected by the brittleness anyway.

[stray mulch]

yes

it

is

toxin has an adm

adm is affected by rending

and i have shown enough clips of the rending affecting the damage

[mighty belfry]

The damage increase you get, is so marginal though. It's a weird case where because the weapon is so awkward about switching to the means of inflicting it, it ends up being just, not really worth switching to it in a vast majority of cases.

[stray mulch]

it's not so marginal

the numbers need ot be tested

but each 100 damage per dot

is a new ttk threshold in havoc

even outside of havoc that matters

you are willing to take 10% damage increases on talents and blassings but when it comes to applying that through a feature built in it would become no worth?

[mighty belfry]

If the animation is long enough that its an active loss to DPS?

Hell yeah.

That's why people tend not to use purple mode.

If the animation was just even a little faster.

There'd be more justification to using it.

[stray mulch]

jumping from 1043 and tick to 1173 a tick is already a decent jump

[stray mulch]

i think you are missing what im saying

DO NOT CHANGE STANCES BETWEEN THE 2

use the purple

and apply toxin via the pistol 1st

then you dont need to worry about anything but swinging

[mighty belfry]

But I don't really use needle pistol like that.

I'm talking about the weapon itself.

[stray mulch]

the weapon itself is shit for applying toxin to begin with

even if you were always applying 3 per hit, you have the shivs that probably could always apply it faster

[ashen osprey]

Kinda wish the shivs had some way of increasing the max number of throwables

[mighty belfry]

Shivs are already busted as is

I really don't think they need more knives

Esp since it's so easy to get them back

[stray mulch]

sadly, that is what it competes with

the only area where it wont really compete with others that can probably out perform it, is in applying the brittle stacks. To me it's obviously just a back-up/support weapon you'd have in other games

[ashen osprey]

At least the plasma gun attempts to have tradeoffs for being good at both CC and armored targets
The shivs just ARE good at both AND give you a ranged option

[mighty belfry]

How a melee weapon has a special that somehow power creeps zealot knives, a blitz

Is beyond me

[stray mulch]

this is only true because of the nerfs over the years

nerfs and changes*

eventually shivs will get touched

maybe?

[mighty belfry]

They did.

But it was more a cleave nerf than anything

Which

While needed

Was not the only thing about the shivs that are busted

[spice cloud]

U can still get the cleave thru perks

[mighty belfry]

But you do have to invest in having the cleave more now.

[spice cloud]

Tbh i think they could just remove the throwing knifes from shivs

[mighty belfry]

Which is a good change.

[stray mulch]

yeah just like the plasma gun, there were many factors making it as strong as it is and was, the shivs are going to be touched more, i can feel it

but also i can see FS not doing anything drastic because technically that is playing with their extra money

[spice cloud]

Having basically zealot knifes as a weapon special is kinda bonkers

[stray mulch]

it's funny ngl

[spice cloud]

They would still be plenty strong without imo

[stray mulch]

i think so too

[manic wolf]

Now we just need a TacAxe we can throw

[lilac schooner]

its just hive scum you can probably get similar results with tacaxe and regular knife

[torpid cloud]

Why would I care about shivs special throw if I can just shoot my syringe pistol

[mighty belfry]

It means you don't have to run needle pistol to make use of toxin

Which is quite nice actually

[stray mulch]

BUT

running the needle pistol has the most advantage of toxin

[lost ravine]

yes but it's not satisfying

[mighty belfry]

Needle pistol is boring

[stray mulch]

to some i guess

[manic wolf]

This. It doesnt make heretics explode into chunks

[stray mulch]

melee is boring

[manic wolf]

Nor does it go bang

[lost ravine]

doubtlessly effective but not satisfying

[stray mulch]

and basic gunning is boring

[mighty belfry]

I've only started to use it again

Because fuck Rotten Armor

With the new spawn changes

[stray mulch]

doong the same thing ive been doing on other classes ismore boring

[lost ravine]

needle pistol does not go spin

[stray mulch]

more melee and more shooting is not less boring than a new playstyle

[manic wolf]

Or bang, don't forget bang, thats very important

[lost ravine]

what

https://tenor.com/view/sunakook-cat-screaming-gif-25279230

[stray mulch]

looping combos and doing the same dodging and blocking and sliding i have always done doesnt change at all especially with old weapons

[manic wolf]

Th.. that is how the game is designed? You literally can't get away from that

[stray mulch]

so play with new weapons but they have a different play style

[cunning creek]

Yeah I do think shivs need a nerf overall

[stray mulch]

at least the use case and playstyle for new weapons are different

[cunning creek]

To some extent

[stray mulch]

until you hit the shivs again

[cunning creek]

It just over shadows the other weapons

[stray mulch]

but you can choose to interact with the game a different way

[manic wolf]

Not really, TacAxe is very comparable, so is Rashad, at least if you wanna be bored out your skull

[lost ravine]

I'm not sure "tap anything anywhere" constitutes a new playstyle

[stray mulch]

using toxin doesnt even stop you from doing what you were already doing, just a different thing to do on top of it

[manic wolf]

Also, Knife is cracked on Scum

[lost ravine]

and even if it did, how's that different from infernus reconlas minus the fact that it does a gorillion armor damage

[mighty belfry]

mk6 honestly

might be even more busted than shiv

I tried a full finesse build with precog and finesse stimm

[cunning creek]

I guess, but in terms of optimal play I feel like shivs do more
And I mean there’s zealot knife on the class, sure, but I feel like most players wouldn’t switch

We got knife at home

[mighty belfry]

I have never been able to actually one shot anything rotten armor until today because the overkill you get off of trash is ridiculous

[stray mulch]

but shooting individual enemies and watching the rest of a horde die is, even if shared by only 1 other class

at least the 2 have that in their own right

[lost ravine]

rather uninteractive

[stray mulch]

melee is just more of the melee youve been playing from SINCE BETA

it;s not uninteractive

[lilac schooner]

It's just the class HS is busted

[stray mulch]

you still have to hit the right targets

[cunning creek]

Yeah lmao

I know that xD

[mighty belfry]

Say it with me

[lilac schooner]

Just melee HS though, gunscum is pretty dead

[mighty belfry]

Hive Scum did not need a buff 🗣️

[cunning creek]

Even ranged build with the auto pistol still kicks ass

[mighty belfry]

Dude

[lost ravine]

tap at distance walk away stop caring is not interactive

[mighty belfry]

Gunscum is not dead

[stray mulch]

spamming m1 isnt either, nor is holding m1

[lost ravine]

"gun scum is dead" no just press f or shank an elite to start the ammo printer

[mighty belfry]

Don't get me wrong. It is a change in playstyle that you actually do have to melee something

[stray mulch]

and all the dodge sliding you could do can be done with the pistol

[cunning creek]

I don’t know why they buffed melee to begin with
I mean yea, we had rampage draining your stamina sure, and that was a change that I didn’t mind

[stray mulch]

so what is interactive at that point?

[mighty belfry]

But it is such a slap on the wrist that any remotely competent player can get around.

[cunning creek]

But reworking the entire tree so there is basically no tax nodes and basically you can just get almost every damage and movement talent available? Bruh

[mighty belfry]

And if we're going with the logic that gunscum is dead because you can't just shoot your gun 100% of the time?

Good.

Now they need to nerf melee scum.

[lost ravine]

having to dodge makes the difference

[lilac schooner]

It's more than a slap on the wrist it's a big handicap now. I haven't seen any gunscums since the patch, all melee and box scums

[stray mulch]

you still have to dodge when using ranged

report plz and ty

get that bot out of here

[cunning creek]

Someone one got hacked

[mighty belfry]

It is not a big handicap.

[sacred estuary]

<@&735928989146939404>

[mighty belfry]

<@&735928989146939404>

Another one bites the dust.

[cunning creek]

Lmao

[cunning creek]

I agree

I think he is just too good

[lost ravine]

considerably less than in melee which is my point

especially with mobile weapons

with infinite ammo

that kill everything

[stray mulch]

so then it's not 'not interactive'

less? sure, subjectively

but you are tweaking if you call using ranged uninteractive

technically speaking

i could be clicking more in ranged than you are in melee

provided you still have to get and be in melee to get any input value

there is a ton of arbitrary reasons we can apply

[cunning creek]

I play auric maelstrom and I use vultures mark and just don’t take damage 😛

[lilac schooner]

armor?

[lost ravine]

needle pistol discussion

[cunning creek]

Now i dunno about havoc, but if im playing ranged scum into crushers i sometimes go into melee to 3-4 weak spot tap them

Not ideal, but it does work

[mighty belfry]

Thank you.

It's not like crushers are suddenly completely invulnerable.

[lilac schooner]

on havoc its not really an option especially in rotten armor

[stray mulch]

so then playing pistol requires melee input