hivescum-class

[flat mist]

Because you're still getting non-hc kills a lot

[charred bronze]

I think they're playing at difficulties where it literally never drops off due to high enemy density

I don't play havoc, so I actually have to walk between enemies occasionally

[lost bear]

yeah and IME that's when HC is most handy

it's a low and mid end bump in exchange for occasionally fucking your HV meme stack

[charred bronze]

that's my experience too. It just smooths out mixed hordes and elite balls

[lost bear]

and if you have the density for a HV meme stack you have enough targets that you won't rage at HC proccing anyway

[flat mist]

Not running HC is so brain-dead it's unbelievable

[charred bronze]

I suspect a lot of people don't understand that it doesn't proc on trash either

if you kill it with a crit, and ididn't need H-C, you keep your H-V stacks

[manic wolf]

Its point expenditure I'm not willin to spend on it, nor does it really change much unless you have a crit stack build. 27% crit chance is just not enough to justify taking something that procs once in a while

HV procs all the time, on every kill

[flat mist]

You always keep your HV stack. HC doesn't remove your HV stack it just can't refresh it.

[charred bronze]

I like it because it gives me a confirmed kill that I would have needed another swing to get

[final temple]

HC is more noticeable cause of the insta kill effect. but all you do is interrupt HV rolling. this is most noticeable once you HAVE all your buffs online as HV would just keep rolling while HC interrupts it AND diminishes sample collector and on kill effects. you gimp yourself for the occasional instakill.

[lost bear]

it's like, idk, not doing cardio because it fucks your gains slightly or something

[charred bronze]

I believe you get on-kill effects

[flat mist]

Damn I hope this is a low finesse weapon build and not taxe

[charred bronze]

but I'm not 100% on that

[lost bear]

you do get sample collector on HC proc, but you don't get pocket sand charges

[manic wolf]

Thats TacAxe with no crit investment other than the one node above the attack speed buff

[lost bear]

what about the 20% on dodge?

[flat mist]

Pretty sure HC procs sample collector

[manic wolf]

I am absolutely not giving up Adrenaline for Chem Dep', thats very stupid

[lost bear]

also, a fully buffed and operational Rampage blender is definitely swinging more than once a second

[manic wolf]

Yeah, I take that, but I doubt it has the uptime to make HC meaningful in any real capacity because you're not just dodging attacks, you're pushing aswell. HC is gamba-damage

[lost bear]

if you get two HC procs back to back, well, you're suffering from success

[manic wolf]

if

[final temple]

HC is really good if you don’t have much more than it invested in melee

[lost bear]

the rest of the time you crit some, you kill some conventionally, and HV still gets fed

[manic wolf]

But at that point you've probably stacked enough HV from anything around the thing you just hit to one or two shot it anyway

[lost bear]

HC is a very good one point wonder for a gun build to be credible in melee yeah

[wise sorrel]

what is the fastest (attack speed wise) weapon for hivescum? and what mark?

melee

[final temple]

I wish sweet spot and HC switched places.

[manic wolf]

On a ranged build I would give it deeper consideration, but much less so on a melee setup

[lost bear]

good catch because some smartarse would definitely have told you dual autopistols

[flat mist]

Just take hc so your build is better

[manic wolf]

I dont think it would make much difference vs the utility of other stuff

[lost bear]

I think the case is much stronger on melee than the interaction suggests, in use I've found it very helpful

[manic wolf]

I dont wanna give up Nimble, I dont wanna give up stam on dodge talent, I dont particularly want to give up Tis But, etc etc

[lost bear]

before I forget, caxe also has a decent bit more stamina than taxe, so the slow attacks are sliiightly buffered by that

[lost bear]

I dropped nimble because I found it helped in melee but not at range

[flat mist]

It's complete la-la land shit that you're sitting at an enemy density where a meaningful level of HV is dropping off because of HC. And any tax build will have 50% crit when it matters

[lost bear]

this was pre-hotfix though

[final temple]

helpful or noticeable? cause yeah. you definitely notice the one shots. but how helpful that is is oftentimes a matter of doing the maths regarding carried overkill damage. HV is far less visible until you suddenly just blend a mixed horde in seconds

[manic wolf]

Im not talking about it eating the proc, Im talking about it being gamba-damage that might only happen 20 times a match, the value just isnt there compared to something thats providing utility or more consistent damage

[lost bear]

both, I don't think HC cramps HV's style that much at all, especially when going full bore

I accept that hypothetically it might fuck the absolute meme heights that HV can stack to, but in practice it's like choosing between a sport bike and a streetfighter

[final temple]

it is. but because of this difference there are more meaningful point investments.

[lost bear]

IME, classic centre + left Rampage melee has space for elective points

I found myself picking up pickpocket by pathing through HC

if you want chem dep then you have to be more ruthless

[final temple]

of course. and now I have to ask you: would you give up HC if pickpocket wasn’t a thing?

[lost bear]

nope, it's just free money, I get to take something I was already going to, to pick up a node that snaps resource economy in half

[flat mist]

They asked if pickpocket wasn't a thing

[lost bear]

if I had to choose between either, in a vaccuum, for fun, I'd pick HC. in Havoc, I'd pick pickpocket

[final temple]

last I checked melee hits are free. you can take em home with you if you want xD

[lost bear]

I assumed that meant in pathing

[unique dagger]

Hyper critical is actually nuts lads

[final temple]

I meant in conflated value assessment.

[unique dagger]

Especially if you are going for a high attack speed light spammy build with shivs / rashad

It also has better pathing than HV, because you can reach pickpocket with it

[lost bear]

absolutely would pick HC

[unique dagger]

When you have >90% crit chance, mixed hordes and maulers might as well not exist

[fast gust]

What if you don't have 90% crit chance

[compact oyster]

your doing something wrong lel

[final temple]

It makes more sense to me to pick HC over HV for the pathing and put that point into utility, accepting the loss in exploding overkill for whatever you value more than to use both together.

[fast gust]

All games average at 50% crit rate and I'm still trying to find the culprit

[unique dagger]

What weapon and what talent tree

[fast gust]

Rampage shivs with dependency

[compact oyster]

hyper violence is very weapon dependant

hyper crit is just good

[unique dagger]

Chem dep is a free 15, class has free 10, shivs have 12.5, small node 5, aura 5, float 20, riposte 20

[fast gust]

Yep

But somehow in actual matches it's about 30-40% off

[unique dagger]

15+10+12.5+5+5+20+20 is like 87.5

[flat mist]

What are you using to measure this

[unique dagger]

Arent you playing aggressive enough?

[fast gust]

PowerDI

[wise sorrel]

what is the fastest mark of shiv?

[fast gust]

Throwing myself at hordes using mobility barrels to get to them faster 🫡

Using our favorite deepbore just to remove the single disabler I can't reach and also to prevent ranged wep contamination, still not hitting over 70% crit rate on the match

[final temple]

less weapon and more overall damage with your build. the more you stack up overkill damage regardless of crit, HV is returning more value. HC scales straight with crit but has not the same return rate.

[flat mist]

Bro riposte only has like 60% uptime using Uptime mod

[unique dagger]

That’s kinda crazy to me, the only one here that will consistently drop and come back around %40 of the match is float, riposte has around %70+ uptime for my regular games (uptime mod)

[flat mist]

If powerDI is tracking the whole match it's going to be WAY lower

[compact oyster]

hyper violence is active for 1 second

[flat mist]

70% on riposte is actually nuts

[compact oyster]

its really not that useful on crowbar

[unique dagger]

I play hyper aggressive on scum

[flat mist]

I've been playing hyper aggressive on psyker for years and 70% is extremely rare

[final temple]

in a mixed horde that is several attacks

[fast gust]

I mean if you don't play hyper agressive you just karking die on rampage scum

[unique dagger]

One dodge with nimble gets you tot he next batch of enemies

So never had issues on scum to keep it up

[compact oyster]

it shines the most on heavy sword or shivs

[flat mist]

Yeah no, that's not going to make a meaningful difference

Not remotely

[final temple]

it shines the more you overkill. any melee orientated scum build achieves that eventually in a mixed horde.

[unique dagger]

With my duo on havoc 40 with orjan, riposte uptime was roughly 75 for example

[flat mist]

And in any mixed horde dense enough to maintain HV, HC won't be stealing enough kills to lose it

[manic wolf]

Its stacked instantly, so if you kill 5 enemies with a swing, or like 10 with Heavy Sword, each enemy you kill during that swing is stacking overkill the second they die, then you swing again and generate more overkill using the increased damage from the first swing, etc etc etc. Its crazy fuckin strong

[unique dagger]

I also run dodge crit on my ranged weapon for extra stacks on my stim pistol

[fast gust]

https://tenor.com/view/bomba-boomba-graggy-tippey-gif-15748946676040016190

[final temple]

that’s simply not true. you roll constantly into the area where HC can proc. HC is extremely good if you need to be able to quickly take out a specific target that pressures you or when you don’t have much else that pushes your melee dmg

[flat mist]

Yep, and if you're in a mixed horde you'll still maintain HV

Because you're oneshotting (without HC) a lot of enemies anyway

[unique dagger]

Ok wait I just realized it probably varies a lot because of the map you play

[manic wolf]

Honestly unless you're running upwards of 60% crit chance consistently enough you can rely on it proccing, its kind of a bait node, a very sneaky bait node, but a bait node nonethless

[unique dagger]

I don’t think I can have 70+ on gloriana for example

I was checking it on enclavum baross

[final temple]

so why take HC then?

[unique dagger]

Maps with mandatory downtime should affect the uptime

[flat mist]

Because cleave exists. Because downtime on your melee buffs exist. Because even at its lowest impact it outweighs other choices of damage nodes.

[final temple]

I can turn this argument on its head and say ‘the cases I would oneshot with HC that I wouldn’t otherwise , I would also oneshot with HV. Exception being the edge case of first, unbuffed engagement from neutral’

[manic wolf]

Only when it procs does it outvalue other damage sources, and if you don't have super high crit chance, its not going to be proccing often enough to outweigh those other bonus'

Its a numbers game

High crit chance build? Cool, HC is really good. Not a high crit chance build? Congratulations, you just got baited

[flat mist]

I can't confidently parse that sentence

[rich carbon]

anyone got a build for dual stub pistols

[final temple]

I am literally setting out to solve a problem with HC I don’t have with HV to begin with. and that to me says that it has anti synergy

[lost bear]

bait is a lot more adverse than the actual interactions

[flat mist]

We're all running 50%+ crit.

[flat mist]

It's not anti-synergy though. It doesn't make your build worse.

[manic wolf]

No, you're not. Unless you're running Chem Dependancy and Shred or Riposte, you're not going to be above 50%

[flat mist]

Dude your build is 47.5%. That counts.

Picking hairs

[final temple]

it does by reducing the RoI on HV and devaluing HC as soon as HV would be overkilling consistently anyways

[final temple]

Made it more legible.

[manic wolf]

Thats 47% with the dodge talent being active. That is not consistent

[flat mist]

Except that we've already established that in a mixed horde it doesn't reduce your RoI on HV

You either have the density to keep scaling HV or you don't

[manic wolf]

Even Cole isnt taking Hypercrit most of the time lol

[flat mist]

HC doesn't change the equation

[warped grove]

i like playing desperado

[lost bear]

path was pro HC + HV IIRC

[final temple]

false. that is not the point. the point is if I can decimate the sane horde faster with just HV or HC and HV combined. otherwise HC has no value in a melee build over just HV.

[flat mist]

And the answer is HC and HV combined. Always.

[lost bear]

the nonbo is overrated and melee HS has limited nodes to bump damage too

[final temple]

I flipped flopped as I parse the maths. outcome is that HC is not a good value proposition in combination with HV.

[lost bear]

not you, bath.rawr (sp?)

[warped grove]

What does HV stand for?

[lost bear]

hyperviolence

[warped grove]

thanks

[final temple]

we have literally video evidence to the contrary. nope. HC can and does interfere and creates a problem you set out to solve with HV. it’s good, very good on its own even and in a hybrid build I would take it over HV for pickpocket.

[warped grove]

Isn’t this just a matter of personal preference

[final temple]

yeah. but so is playing without any talents at all. 😉

[warped grove]

true shit

[manic wolf]

Everything is a matter of personal perferance at the end of the day, but we're talking about opportunity cost vs value

[warped grove]

I mean if my build works at the end of the day I dont feel like I need to change anything or min max it

[manic wolf]

An for most builds, its just not there to take HC and HV

[unique dagger]

I prefer picking one over the other when I’m going for specific builds, but I prefer critmaxxing and going hc much more than I do hv only

[flat mist]

Link?

[fast gust]

No personal preference, I will use my advanced ogrynomics degree to appear in your talent tree and forcefully pick the talents I want you to have.

[warped grove]

exactly bruh

[unique dagger]

HC interfering with my HV is making it hard to stack HV, getting way less value from the talent

[warped grove]

Im so happy I dont have to play Havoc anymore, so I dont have to look at it the “havoc” way of having the most efficient build

[lost bear]

also might be worth contextualising weapon choice for some of these positions

[manic wolf]

Well I'm safe then, because I've effectively just made Ogryn, but drug-addled

[lost bear]

funni rations

[warped grove]

and If I do play havoc

I just play whatever fits or what I want tbh

[unique dagger]

HV is better on rashad heavy sword type of weapons, HC is better on shivs n combat blades

[lost bear]

I found on Rashad the combo was fucking cooked

[final temple]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=dyQQfSWzsPM&si=GVOu_q3x_ORvmUHs from 5:10 it discusses precisely our point of contention

[manic wolf]

Scum is a weird class. Melee builds basically dont need a gun and gun builds basically dont need a melee 😄

[warped grove]

yeah

[lost bear]

because you stack stupid overkill anyway, it's trivial to get it back up to a usful number, even if you're not hitting meme numbers

[warped grove]

thats how it works usually

[unique dagger]

You have infinite ammo with pickpocket, just magdump with it when your rampage is down lol

[manic wolf]

I wouldnt say its that clear cut for any class other than Psyker tbh

[unique dagger]

Grab a needle pistol and shoot

[fast gust]

TANNER

[final temple]

Hate that guy. But he made a coherent argument

[warped grove]

Don’t we hate all dt media

[manic wolf]

You think I care to shoot stuff with the intention of killing them on melee Scum? Noo, I use the AoE Boltpistol to stop stuff shooting at me so I can run over there and beat the shit out of them

[warped grove]

(Except hank)

[unique dagger]

Grab swap speed for that build

Thank me later

[novel oracle]

broken clock

[fast gust]

uncle, khan and cookies

[manic wolf]

Don't need it lol, Boltpistol isnt a long swap speed

[novel oracle]

granted, not everything has to work with each other

[unique dagger]

Have you tried shooting it with swap speed?

[fast gust]

why don't more people run the deepbore shotgun

[manic wolf]

Im sure its faster, but there is no value increase vs other choices

[unique dagger]

The other things dont matter, it makes bistol so fast you can use it like purg m1 on melee psyker builds

[molten bolt]

https://tenor.com/view/better-call-saul-faint-dead-nope-bye-gif-12483755

[flat mist]

Watching now. $10 says this doesn't remotely prove HC makes the clear on mixed hordes worse

[manic wolf]

They do matter though, because they're melee related, survivability or movement related. Its a hard sell to trade any of that out for a ranged specific skill on a melee build

[final temple]

I take paypal or late night drunk havoc carries as payment

[unique dagger]

With the buffed dodges it doesnt matter much true, since you can just ignore gunfire.

But if they revert the change you’ll understand its real value

[manic wolf]

I don't think I will because that change is going to effect other classes far more than it will Scum

[novel oracle]

when they revert it

[dense hollow]

maybe they'll revert it after the holiday festivities are over

[manic wolf]

Think we'll be waiting till what? January at this point?

Icr how long FS's xmas holiday is

[fast gust]

Give it 5 months for the big scummer nerfs

[manic wolf]

Lule, I hope not. Ranged Scummer is currently gamebreaking

[unique dagger]

Anyways try it regardless if you enjoy bistolling on melee scum. Talking about it without you having tried it wont help much

It’s very nice for bistol

[manic wolf]

I take what amount to the same skill on Vet.

And I play weap'spec with Boltpistol there

[drowsy relic]

They flat out said they're going to do that

[manic wolf]

But Scum isnt withheld to the same limitations of movement that Veteran is

[dense hollow]

1 month later then

[manic wolf]

Erefore, its sort of a wasted skill for a pistol

[unique dagger]

Try it for a game first

If you dont like it drop it afterwards

[manic wolf]

No. I don't need to, I know the impact it will have, and its not enough value to warrant dropping other skills for it

If you like it, more power to you, but for me, its surplus to requirements

[rich carbon]

am i doing something wrong is or the crowbar just dogshit

[unique dagger]

Lmao you are one stubborn cookie aren’t you? Well, enjoy it regardless I guess. I think you are missing a lot.

[manic wolf]

Its not amazing, no

[rich carbon]

the alt mode doesn't seem to uh

do any damage

i was literally wailing on a mauler for like 20 seconds

[manic wolf]

The alt mode is really good into armour, the trouble is hitting the thing you want to hit with it

[drowsy relic]

Spam lights not heavies

[manic wolf]

Crusher and a horde of Poxwalkers exist > try to hit Crusher with beaky mode > "oh nope, thats a poxwalker" > "nope, thats another one" > "and another one" > repeat until all Poxwalkers are dead and only the Crusher remains

[dense hollow]

i tried crowbar extensively and it's okay because rampage can make any melee work

but i wouldn't use it over most weapons

[spice cloud]

Crowbar dmg is abysmall

[manic wolf]

Yeah.. Rampage do be carrying a few weapons at the moment...

[spice cloud]

Unusable dogshit sadly

[manic wolf]

Its usable... its just uhh.. not very good

[final temple]

I have seen people put it into power falch tier

[near vapor]

https://tenor.com/view/luthen-andor-star-wars-starwars-luthen-happy-gif-543426695820652362

[dense hollow]

relic blade at home

[flat mist]

So the argument is that leaving an enemy you crit on low health (not scaling HV) allows you to then hit the same enemy to refresh it on a subsequent hit?!? Contrasted to HC which DOES kill that enemy (again, not scaling HV) you're forced to hit a different enemy which may have more health?

[manic wolf]

I like the power falchion, probably more than I should, but im under no illusion about it being good

[grand jewel]

not tanner

[dense hollow]

it's okay..we still have the sapper shovel

[manic wolf]

Emprah's glorious shit-shoveller

[verbal dew]

maybe the switch from one crowbar mode in to the other shouldn't be so drastic

it goes from bouncy to incredibly sticky

[final temple]

no. the argument is that HC’s value proposition of insta kills is bait because you kill something pointless now to not two shot a crusher later. But that’s in another part of the video. Your claim was that HC and HV are always the superior choice. This is fucking tanner of all people bringing evidence to the contrary.

[manic wolf]

It would be a nice QoL upgrade if you could swap it mid-swing pattern, but it still has the issue of grabbing anything and everything other than the thing you actually want the beak to grab

[verbal dew]

I mean mid-swing it should just be a combo atp and not a mode

[manic wolf]

That would also work, yeah, though having the choice is nice

[dense hollow]

even if it grabbed what you wanted to grab, it's not revolutionary carapace damage

[manic wolf]

I hope we see more weapons with moveset swaps in the future, but hopefully better excecuted than Crowbar is

[dense hollow]

more often than not you'll be forced to dodge mid animation and you wont get the 2nd tick of dmg

[verbal dew]

like I feel like I'm throwing if I forget to switch off the single target mode

[flat mist]

That literally is tanners argument. Hit X doesn't kill the enemy you hit, and that hit would've killed it with HC. Hit X + 1 can now kill the enemy you left alive allowing you to prolong your HV chain.

[grand jewel]

the special should just be the crowbill hook pull

[manic wolf]

No, but if it was more reliable it would be a fair trade for being flexible. Which currently its very much not

[grand jewel]

[verbal dew]

I hoped pre-release that it would be like pickaxe special

[drowsy relic]

They should put 3 more weapons in that are just billhook and also 2 bret swords

[verbal dew]

like let me fuck up bulwarks

I hate crowbar blessings as well

[grand jewel]

yeah I wish we got some new blessings

[final temple]

The whole clip is about demonstrating that HC does not actually bring anything helpful to the table when HV is running. All you do is notice the instakill and think ‘neat’ when in reality it does not help with clearspeed. It’s a placebo.

[verbal dew]

at least needler is good enough that the blessings don't matter

[manic wolf]

There is that

[flat mist]

You're not engaging with what I've said

[final temple]

Because what you said is a strawman.

[flat mist]

No, it's either a correct interpretation or not.

[final temple]

Then let’s just say it’s false. Because he points out that the hit you save now majorly diminishes your damage later.

[verbal dew]

blessings in this game in general are so pigeon holed in to either mandatory-always-run or dog-shit

[flat mist]

Because you don't leave that enemy alive to kill with hit X + 1?

[verbal dew]

so boring that they're all "solved"

[final temple]

That enemy would die anyway to cleave.

[manic wolf]

They do need a full overhaul tbh

[drowsy relic]

Run and gun got pushed into relevancy somehow

[manic wolf]

Thats true actually

Speedload too

[drowsy relic]

You must all understand that they could do a million blessing reworks

There will still be optimal ones. People will seek the optimal ones.

[flat mist]

So, there are other enemies you could hit to maintain your HV chain?

[drowsy relic]

They will optimise the fun out of build crafting

[novel oracle]

the crowbar actually matches what stage of the combo youre in while you swap btw

[manic wolf]

With the way blessings are now, theres not a lot of optimizing involved

[final temple]

he runs the video deliberately slow. at some point he compares it to actual normal speed both with and without HC and you see that HC actually interferes exactly with what you propose ‘just hit something else’.

[novel oracle]

so you can enter halfway through the blunt combo after doing the first heavy of the beak combo

[verbal dew]

I mean that's fine, they should however allow for different builds

[manic wolf]

Huh, I didnt clock that, thats neat. If only you could hit your target with the beaky mode

[verbal dew]

closest to different builds on one weapon is like voidblast

or surge surge

[manic wolf]

Thats actually very fun to play tbh, as much as I don't like Psyker in its current state

[verbal dew]

current state? what are you looking for atp lol

it's already hella varied

[flat mist]

Dude, I understood the video. I'm breaking down what he's actually saying. How is leaving that enemy alive actually helpful? If it's going to die to cleave, that implies it's not going to be the first target of your next hit. So you're saying leaving that enemy alive is helpful because A) it might be the first target of your next swing making it an (almost) guaranteed refresh on HV, or B) it's left alive to be cleaved to death on your next swing also somehow reaching the threshold to refresh HV despite it not being the first target of the hit

[manic wolf]

Just some small downtunings to its damage output. (I would like to see Purgatus get nuked into oblivion too, but that wont happen)

[novel oracle]

you have so many different flavors of "do barely anything and win" on psyker, the possibilities are endless!

[manic wolf]

Yeah...

Its uhh.. very simple to play, and for the supposed "powerful brain" class, thats kinda ironic

[verbal dew]

there's always gonna be bad psykers tho

[final temple]

you don’t ‘leave that enemy alive’. that is the whole point. with just HV you just keep slashing and it self correct. HC interferes because it forces you to search new targets within HV’s window of opportunity. You kill an inconsequential enemy NOW which reduces your damage into a beefier target. one that HC might not even proc on. It makes NO sense to take HC and HV if you care for point investment value because these actively devalue each other.

[verbal dew]

I usually don't take HC or HV because I don't know when they'd be relevant lol

[novel oracle]

HV is singnificantly more relevant basically all of the time

[verbal dew]

too simple brained

[final temple]

it makes more sense to disregard HV and just go HC for pathing and instakill potential if you care about that than to devalue the numerically superior HV by taking both.

[manic wolf]

HV is good on melee builds, HC is good on very high crit chance builds, but as Cole says, HV is generally much better

[flat mist]

I don't see the point of continuing this if we're going to be playing semantic games of "You're not leaving that enemy alive but also you are leaving him alive for a subsequent hit (and sometimes it dies to random cleave)"

[final temple]

that is your game, tho if you don’t put the clip I gave you into the context of his argument. I am happy to accept that you may feel mislead because you ignored the rest of this drag of a video. But it does show what you claimed is not true.

[grand jewel]

why not have a high crit chance melee build

[final temple]

the point is that HV by itself can self correct, so that it is more efficient with less mental load than taking both.

[flat mist]

No, I'm putting the clip I didn't ignore because it's dragged on (bruh) that I've watched three or four times over two days now into context... Admittedly I only half watched it yesterday.

[final temple]

HC can interfere with the self correction and thus is tanner’s argument.

[manic wolf]

You can, however at that point HV still wins most of the time, because, say with something like the Combat Knife, you'll be able to one shot everything with HV stacks anyway, making taking HC pointless.

HC is just a spectacularly bait-filled talent

[final temple]

and HV damage is added to the possible crit calculation so it explodes even more on high crit.

[flat mist]

It literally doesn't show anything meaningful because he highlights one or two examples

n of 1 go brrre

[manic wolf]

AND.. somethin that appears to be getting glossed over, is that HV can meaningfully lower TTK on Ogryns and bosses. HC does literally nothing to those enemies

[final temple]

examples you claimed don’t exist.

[flat mist]

No, because I was talking about on average.

I thought we had a basic understanding of probability here

[final temple]

I am sorry. Who is playing the semantics game again?

[flat mist]

That's not semantics games

That's normal communication

[final temple]

the word always and the word average are not the same.

[flat mist]

That words are not always taken strictly literally is not semantics games

It's a basic function of how all language and communication works

[final temple]

well. then semantics games might as well not exist

[flat mist]

That words aren't strictly literal is not what semantics games refers to

[grand jewel]

🫃

chat

[final temple]

I take my late night drunk havoc carries. thanks.

[grand jewel]

can you two kiss already

[flat mist]

Jury is still out. I appreciate the convo though

[manic wolf]

On average, you might crit an enemy, you might not, whereas you're always going to overkill an enemy to at least some degree. And even with a high crit chance, on average, you probably wont crit Maulers or Ragers every time you hit one; erefore, HV is significantly better value than HC (and the bosses + Ogryns damage )

[verbal dew]

im this on my tac axe needler build, what's the easiest cut to make for HV if it's a very good talent to take

[manic wolf]

Ditch weakspot

[final temple]

get rid of pickpocket.

lol

or that

[manic wolf]

Also yes, you can do that too

[dense hollow]

not on tac axe

:(

tac axe has super high finesse so it atleast has more use out of it than other melees

[novel oracle]

weakspot

[manic wolf]

More use, yes, but I wouldnt say meaningful enough to warrant losing other stuff for

Tbh, I would also swap to Adrenaline Keystone on that build and spend more points in the middle of the tree with the excess

Also rending node on Rampage

[verbal dew]

ok I'll give weakspot a try, I'd rather just use another ranged if I skip pickpocket so

[final temple]

huh? needler is insane value per shot, even without pickpocket

[dense hollow]

needle pistol is about as ammo effective as it gets

[manic wolf]

Lemmie boot up an post my Rampage TacAxe build

[verbal dew]

yeah ig I just like pickpocket as a backup

[main trellis]

Every ranged weapon can be ammo inneficient if you just hold the trigger at everything like an ape

[final temple]

we all do. time to be an adult about your laser guided poison slivers.

[verbal dew]

I could skip that whole tree part and do more rampage stuff

[dense hollow]

true

[verbal dew]

and maybe even keep weakspot, I don't want to run adrenaline keystone at least

[final temple]

I am partial to chem dep with rampage

[main trellis]

Its sad that ChD is just soo much better that other keystones

[manic wolf]

Try this

[main trellis]

Even after trying the rest… ChD turns out to be better everytime

[final temple]

I am sure people will disagree. I, however, have seen the light. Except supply. I just can’t wrap my head around supply with chem dep

[flat mist]

SOMETHING ELSE TO ARGUE ABOUT ♥️

[manic wolf]

Thats a stretch.. Adrenaline is active all the time, its incredible value

[flat mist]

And I think we agree

[verbal dew]

thanks, but it's not my style

[main trellis]

Why are you soo heavy in the middle section?
Why you take the far right talent for adrenaline?
Where is your sample collector?
Where is your weakspot dmg on a melee build?
This could be better

[main trellis]

I tried it; ChD is still better for your survivability

[verbal dew]

I notice I just don't slide enough for the melee immunity to be worth it when it'd matter

the dodge recovery one is very nice on tac axe at least

[main trellis]

Nobody really slides while in melee - you simply dodge & hold block if you wanna get out of melee

[dense hollow]

the only time melee immunity on slide is noticeable is if you're pushing a carryable to the objective

[verbal dew]

yeah

[dense hollow]

but thats a talent point for 5% of the game

[verbal dew]

it just sounds really good

[winged bay]

I think the slide melee immunity also doesn't quite give you full protection for the duration of the slide

maybe even only if you start the slide during the dodge window

[verbal dew]

it's like +100% toughness nodes ppl think completely fill your toughness

[main trellis]

Just like rebreather & simple minded; too situational and thus not worth a talent
Bait talent

[verbal dew]

rebreather I see more people gospel than simple minded at least

[manic wolf]

Because im specced for movement for survivability and thusly ChemDep is surplus to requirements, I would rather have the damage. I do have the far right node for Adrenaline lul, and why would I take Weakspot damage for the rocket launcher when its just for armour walls? Its not that impactful. I also only use one branch of stim purposefully so I can skip sample collector

[verbal dew]

I feel like I always kill enough for sample collector and full tree to be worth it

[manic wolf]

I am habitually slide dodging out of melee, Zealot brain is Zealot brain

[verbal dew]

btw is a full on desperado needler build ever worth a try? it sounds fun

or does the DoT just fuck up all interactions

[flat mist]

Doesn't it just stop melee attacks tracking you? Meaning you wouldn't expect it to give immunity at all

[winged bay]

I didn't do much testing but it felt like if the enemy tried to target me during the slide, I could still get hit

[manic wolf]

Not really

[main trellis]

I am specced for movement too and i don’t take all that & don’t die
You get enough dmg from your ability and other talents like weakspot & HV
Far right & left nodes for adrenaline are oof; only good ones is 20s durration & 5% toughness regain ones
You take weakspot for your melee & ranged (unless needler) - vet takes 30% weakspot too despite his grenades not working for weakspots either lmao; you miss free dmg
Even on single branch SC is invaluable (unless you use only cdr and pop it after you lose rampage then fair but you lose free 50% toughness regain everytime you pop it & 15% tdr which what the class desperately needs; crit is an option but still strong to have basically a total of 30% crit chance at all times)

[winged bay]

if it targeted you before the slide, then it couldn't track you

[naive imp]

chem dep 🥱

[flat mist]

My understanding would suggest that sliding on the spot would essentially make the talent do exactly nothing

[calm aurora]

broken cock

[verbal dew]

I wish fast acting stim didn't also shorten the duration of stim supply, makes it harder to use the ability for optimal team support

[novel oracle]

also applicable

[manic wolf]

Yeah... no....

The 5% toughness node is good, but not required, the 20s node is good and the far right one is the most consistent way of proccing it (two elite kills for proc)

You dont take weakspot, because its 25% of the bonus damage for hitting a weakspot, not a 25% flat damage increase.

No shit you're not dying if you're taking the toughness nodes from ChemDep, but doesnt make it the best Keystone. and no, I cycle damage stim and Rampage, and the minor gaps between are all but entirely covered because of the adrenaline buffs.

I'm sorry bud, but those are some L takes up in there

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/faizal-khamisa-faizal-khamisa-take-the-l-the-l-gif-27532961

[manic wolf]

Imagine saying the node for getting Adrenaline in two kills is bad

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-bad-whos-bad-80s-music-mj-gif-18917942

I would not mind more leather and nails on scum

[manic wolf]

We do need a bit of that old 40K bondage aesthetic, its true

[empty wolf]

anyone got a bug witht the stub pistol akimbo when that there is no sound on a weakspot hit?

[lost bear]

Between Hive Scum and Zealot, I reckon they cornered the market

[grand jewel]

played a game without hyper clitical and gotta say, I do miss having it

[lost bear]

Also probably why we won't get an Assassin class, if we're using the Dark Heresy class skeleton as a rough map for FS' development

[manic wolf]

Lmao, yeah they're getting there, Scum just needs a bit more

[novel oracle]

Hyper clitical

[grand jewel]

[manic wolf]

Dont both Scum and Zealot already sort of have assasin type branches tho?

[lost bear]

80% chance and still can't find it smh

[lost bear]

Yeah as in, would be treading on their toes and the archetype is well represented already, no point making it separately

[manic wolf]

Ah gotcha, yeah true

[final temple]

because by that logic next we get a deathwatch marine 😂

[lost bear]

DH1?

[grand jewel]

daemonhost the first

[vocal saffron]

but i like ,,

my poison ,,

[lost bear]

Playing as an Astartes was a hyper niche option lol, no sane GM permitted it

[unreal stirrup]

did they broke dodge linger

[lost bear]

Does imply tech priest somewhere in the pipeline

[final temple]

I think we should get a savant or engineer next, tbf tho

[manic wolf]

Funny how the first Daemonhosts would mercilessly murder teams an now people are like "huh? that was a boss?"

[unreal stirrup]

dodging literally every ranged now

[calm aurora]

yes

[unreal stirrup]

real

[calm aurora]

it will be fixed after the break

[manic wolf]

I know people wanting admech is a bit of a meme at this point, but its fairly likely in some capacity

[unreal stirrup]

next year

[lost bear]

Savant seems very...non combat

[grand jewel]

final toll ones are scary and the ones from the event when people aren't expecting ones are still mildly dangerous

but yeah, kinda disappointing lol

[lost bear]

Idk I could be wrong, they might make it the summon class

[grand jewel]

wish they varied in power a bit

[final temple]

it would make sense. but peeps need to reign their expectations in. it’s maximally going to be a Skitarius

[manic wolf]

Yeah, true true

[drowsy relic]

The funniest part is the dark heresy classes we have left are

Assassin
Adept
Tech priest

Now all in on adept

[lost bear]

Hit them with a book

[manic wolf]

I would expect Tech Adept tbh, not a Skitarii or full blow Priest

They're a bit beyond the power curve

[grand jewel]

gib eversor

🤝

the true speedrun class

stop moving and you die

[lost bear]

But also, Dark Heresy Ascension went kinda wild

You could be a Vindicare Assassin there

[manic wolf]

Your Ult is also randomly triggered because you dont have control over it

[drowsy relic]

They might just do tech priest tbf

[grand jewel]

[drowsy relic]

Or call it that

[grand jewel]

you don't spawn in on respawn another eversor is just dropped through the ceiling at mach fuck

[manic wolf]

Lmaoo

[final temple]

sth with the flair and maximally a gameplay defining implant like a shoulder weapon or mechadendrite without suggesting that they are any higher in position than our mistress of varlets.

[lost bear]

And there are more obviously martial elements of the Mechanicus (the Secutors)

I do really want an Omnissian Axe just for another weapon to mog the thunder hammer

[main trellis]

Lmao
5% is not required no but its nice to have; 20s dur tho is peak - since you take extra stacks on kills does it prevent ya from gaining stacks on hits? Can’t remember but if yes its bad if no then ye can be used but not required since you murder soo much and adrenaline lasting 20s does not make you go & hunt more kills to refresh the durration mid fight
25% is still 25% and you melee most of the time - just cause its not flat does not mean is not worth - works the same as vet one just 5% less
I wanna see ya kot take it as vet lmao; have a lil read

Increases the weakspot damage of melee and ranged attacks (including Boom Bringer projectile hit) by 25%; stacks additively with related damage buffs, and multiplicatively with power level buffs from weapon blessings

The problem with your build is that the moment you get chipped & get no enemies around while being under fire you you have 4 options;

1. You wait with your team for coherency regen (lmao)
2. You have to use your ability to restore & then rush the enemy
3. You wait gor your team yo restore your toughness with abilities if there are any
4. You rush anyways & probably die cause ranged stun (depends on situation)

[manic wolf]

Yeah, its a fine line, a disgraced Tech Adept would be really fitting though, they could even give Hadron some really vicious voicelines to deal with the guy aswell. Mechadendrite would be dope tho, like a auto-firing ranged weapon or summat

[manic wolf]

You havent tested like any of these skills yourself have you lule

[drowsy relic]

They should give vet a 2 handed weapon and also make the power falchion real

[lost bear]

Don't think they'd be disgraced, maybe survivors of the other Mechanicus element rooting around in the hive city, or a fresh contingent

[grand jewel]

give vet Thammer

[lost bear]

The issue with fresh contingent is that it means that the the warp storms are easing, and the Mourningstar is no longer king of shit mountain

[main trellis]

Can’t remember thus i wrote it as a disclaimer; read my boi read

[manic wolf]

Why is the Arb here out of interest? Do we know? Coz yeah I guess you could fit them in like that

[final temple]

I suppose the same route as arbites. loose alliance. the mechanicus sure would have an interest in all the stuff we supposedly already found for them.

[grand jewel]

restore the tithe

[lost bear]

Likely it'll linking up with the AM contingent already present

[grand jewel]

moebian steel

[manic wolf]

Wow, you play Havoc. Lad, I playtested Havoc before you even knew it existed, wind your neck in lul

[drowsy relic]

They'd need to introduce an arch magos probably

[lost bear]

Arb were already present, they supposedly stepped aside for a while to let Rannick "solve" the problem

[manic wolf]

Could be good for story and character development having an Arch Magos on board the ship, though I'm not sure what role they'd fill at this point

[lost bear]

Got big mad when Rannick looked like he hadn't, and Atoma's tithe might be threatened

[manic wolf]

Ahhh, that makes sense then

[drowsy relic]

Moreeeeeeeee CONFLICTTT

[grand jewel]

its said in their cutscenes why they arrived and are working with, they only care about restoring the tithe, rest of it is everyone elses problem

[main trellis]

And still does not take weakspot dmg talent for a melee build
Of all ppl you should go take a whiff of that wind

[final temple]

One would consider a hive wide uprising involving renegade forces to pique the arbites’ interest, wouldn’t one?

[manic wolf]

I really can't be bothered.

[manic wolf]

Neither does Cole...

Because its 25% of the bonus damage, not 25% increased damage.

[lost bear]

Sefoni mentions how there's an AM contingent with their own agenda, IIRC

[main trellis]

A mistake most severe

[drowsy relic]

The entire plot... and Imperium is conflict tbf

How none of the factions who are on the same side actually get along

[main trellis]

Even Sire Melk has his own squads

[lost bear]

I'm not a lore compendium, someone like JoPlaysGames probably has a video to consult

[grand jewel]

arbites also don't like dukane jumping in like she has

[drowsy relic]

However an admech faction might be able to produce weapons for the warband which in canon gives us reasons to work for them

[manic wolf]

I didnt think Arbs really cared unless it was something to that degree

[vast yoke]

i was wrong to tease cole about the tacaxe this might be the most fun weapon on scum holy shit

[manic wolf]

Yes ma'am, TacAxe is one of Scum's best options

[lost bear]

Imperium is a feudal hellscape

[tight musk]

chop-chop-chop-chop-chop-chop-chop

TacAxe gameplay.

[main trellis]

Vet has the same node… just 5% stronger
Imagine skipping 25% dmg

[drowsy relic]

The conclave was a power move by Rannick to spite the Arbites because he's a petty wine aunt

[manic wolf]

Its NOT 25% more damage lule

[main trellis]

Caxe is… a mood too

[vast yoke]

it's absurdly good on rampage but still fantastic on any desperado dependency build too which i didn't expect. it turns out Crushers aren't much of a problem if you crit 3/4 of your attacks oml

[main trellis]

Read what it does

[winged bay]

it's more like 7-15%

[lost bear]

They did care, they were supposedly talked down into not crashing out and going ham

[winged bay]

depending on your weapon

[manic wolf]

#hivescum-class message Please. Read this, and then read it again.

[manic wolf]

Yeah.. its not a huge increase

[calm aurora]

it adds up

[main trellis]

Increases the weakspot damage of melee and ranged attacks (including Boom Bringer projectile hit) by 25%; stacks additively with related damage buffs, and multiplicatively with power level buffs from weapon blessings.
Not huge

[manic wolf]

It adds up on Vet, I wouldnt say it makes much difference on Scum

[vast yoke]

yeah on corkscrews i think it's smth like 14.6% at 76% finesse. i only know this because someone was arguing abt using weakspot damage bonus on their weapon which shit out a measly 3.26% damage boost

it's pretty worth it on some weps tbh

[manic wolf]

You don't need that on Boombringer unless you're incapable of killing bosses with melee or gun, which you shouldnt be on Scum, you should be using the RPG to evaporate armour walls, in which case, it makes no difference because you can't headshot Ogryns with it and they'd die anyway

[calm aurora]

ok, let's not take every dmg increase in the tree and focus on survival bs 🙂

[vast yoke]

boobringer is better used for evaporating 8 million crushers

[final temple]

to be fair, weakspot damage is added to the multiplicator. it’s additive with other weakspot, crit and finesse damage sources

[low harbor]

depends entirely on how big the dW / dC / dCW number is

[main trellis]

Ofc you don’t but our talk is about melee effectiveness
Vet takes it too yet his grenades does not work for weakspot

[main trellis]

25% is still 25%

[lost bear]

The Arbites have securing the tithe as a primary mandate and would have tried to purge the insurrectionist elements immediately (tried because we see they can't, they don't have the numbers, and even linking up with the Inquisition warband they can't do it), the Inquisition probably wanted to let the main players show themselves while fighting a holding action that forced them to escalate

[manic wolf]

If you wanna take it, you go ahead bud. I'm not gonna argue with you any longer, you've waved your stumpy little johnson around enough at this point whilst making multiple errors and this is the only thing left you can cling to.

[vast yoke]

tbh vet gets a lot of mileage out of 50% when every 2 vets are dueling sword chuddies

[lost bear]

So basically in corporate terms Arbites were trying to hit quarterly goals, and Inquisition was here to restructure

[low harbor]

vet usually takes it because

1. their best melee happens to be a finesse one
2. most of their best guns are entirely based around headshot 1-2 hit kills
3. u can actually grab almost all dmg bonuses on vet tree fairly easily without much tradeoff

[manic wolf]

Arbitrators amounting to corporate enforcers? Tell me it aint so 😄

[tight musk]

On my crowbar build the 25% weakspot dmg talent adds about 9% extra damage on a headshot.

[manic wolf]

Their best melee also happens to be a fuckin Power Sword

[low harbor]

yea power sword is big on finesse

[main trellis]

Errors
Its a choice to take it; its also a choice to have a worse performing build too; imagine what your power from rampage & str from stimm & dmg from adrenaline would do more due to that 25% extra!
Unless you hit bodies alot then pepega

[manic wolf]

I doubt it can still one shot Crushers.. Can it?

I never got on with it particularly well

[manic wolf]

Its not. 25%.

[low harbor]

5045 on crit-weakspot vs crusher in 1 hit with all relevant buffs up

[manic wolf]

Jesus

Thats pretty impressive

[novel oracle]

No nerfs allowed

[low harbor]

and ofc the kekw react

lol

it's like he can't use anything else

[manic wolf]

Yeah.. this dude has displayed himself as quite the goob in this last hour

[lost bear]

15% on dodge for 3s is better by the numbers then, aye?

[low harbor]

depends on ur dodge uptime

[sinful matrix]

2023 rears its ugly head

[lost bear]

25% weakspot is like meaningless to ~10% or so damage

[manic wolf]

Its decent. Some have mentioned the uptime isnt super high after using the mod, but its damage thats active when you need it, which is inherently valuable

[final temple]

it’s more like the arbites would both lash out at local enforcers, PDF and the gouvernor for incompetence and THEN go after the insurrectionists. they are a bit different than the obvious judge dredd inspiration.

[lost bear]

Not nothing but value proposition per talent point needs to be considered

[manic wolf]

I would say its pretty decent, even with lower uptime, as above, active when you need it to be

[final temple]

the only planet I know of where the arbites are straight up the police is terra

[low harbor]

It’s not bad for 1 point

[novel oracle]

Which is cool and all but theres too may other things in the tree

[low harbor]

It’s just not a mandatory pick

[main trellis]

For DoT, explosions, body hits yes
The rest tho…

[lost bear]

Yeah they're more of internal security troops than cops. I'm just not sure it'd happen in quite that order immediately

[novel oracle]

Imo the 15% damage nodes are the first to go if the build calls for something else

[manic wolf]

Thats fair

I have a pretty movement heavy playstyle on Scum so im a bit more hesitent to let them go

[final temple]

Imagine the liaison with the arbites straight up threatening the local enforcers to maintain order or else.

[novel oracle]

For me its more a minor drop in damage is worth making the build function well

[final temple]

their purpose is to enforce the lex imperialis, which is more like federal law than local law.

[manic wolf]

If they were lore accurate Arbies they'd probably just start putting Bolt shells in heads

[manic wolf]

There is also that, though for a melee centric build thats rarely the case

[lost bear]

Boots up bums for sure, bolt shells as delayed performance incentive is what I'm saying

[manic wolf]

Mainly because you're not ever really that strapped for points with melee Scum, but still

[final temple]

I remember there being one short story where the arbites did fuckall to quell a genestealer uprising until the ‘stealers started assaulting their precinct.

[low harbor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1259187493266395178/1450434252314513439/image.png?ex=694285a9&is=69413429&hm=e41fa145a0efe5b572a20511c1b124afa00ddde0f69913ab5adf5510557018a2&

[manic wolf]

Yeah.. that looks about right

[main trellis]

Yeah so why not grab the weakspot anyways?

[manic wolf]

Because it doesnt really change anything

[calm aurora]

please buff

[main trellis]

Lemme guess; bleed just ran out cause it vanishes faster

[manic wolf]

I kinda wonder if Chem Tox is gonna see a nerf in the long run

[main trellis]

Should

[low harbor]

Bleed’s stack cap is 16

[manic wolf]

Does the shock DoT stack or is that just a flat number?

[low harbor]

Great question

[manic wolf]

Not that there are a lot of sources of it, but it'd be nice to see on the graph

[low harbor]

There’re like 8 different types of electrocution DOT and they’re all different

[manic wolf]

Ahh ok, that makes sense

[low harbor]

And most of them are not enough damage to matter

[lost bear]

There's no real equivalent to the Arbites IRL, it's like the NKVD + IRS + gendarmes + the stay-behind partisan networks post WW2

[main trellis]

Could be said about almost every dmg node… and yet are taken
Hmmm

[low harbor]

The only ones that matter are arb maul and shock maul

[main trellis]

🤔

[calm aurora]

ICE

[low harbor]

And maybe charged strike but that node is ass

[lost bear]

Nah Arbites are competent

[calm aurora]

are they tho?

[manic wolf]

Surprisingly, there is a neat synergy on Psyker with the Shock Maul and the Smite node that applies a shock DoT on heavy attacks and that can put out some relatively competant low-effort damage

[main trellis]

And have cool armour

[manic wolf]

Its very weird and very niche mind you

[final temple]

the revolutionary guard in Iran

[lost bear]

ICE is more SS/SA

[low harbor]

Yea it’s just not as good as psyker’s top melee picks tho

[lost bear]

Yeah but afaik they don't do taxes

[manic wolf]

No. I'd be dropping 15% to all damage (which includes weakspot) for like 10% damage when hitting weakspots, its not worth it

[final temple]

yeah. we would rather call it corruption

[manic wolf]

No, that it most certainly is not

[main trellis]

Trivia for ya; stunstorm grenade counts as electrocuted & staggered too so high voltage on enemies affected by it will proc

[lost bear]

Not individually but as a system, yeah. Their very presence introduces one more element that must be coordinated for successful insurrection

[manic wolf]

I wish the Shock Maul would get a mobility buff though, cos its a super cool weapon you just move like a slug through molasses when using it

[calm aurora]

In terms of crowd control, the closest would be France's CRS

[lost bear]

Do they get a portable stop sign as a retirement present?

[low harbor]

Shock maul needs to start being good at stagger first

[manic wolf]

IRL Arbites, for real lol

[main trellis]

It has neutral mobility no?
Not everything has to have mobility of a knife

[manic wolf]

There is that

[low harbor]

Stagger-based melee

Look inside
Not actually good at stagger

[calm aurora]

yeaahhh

[lost bear]

Aye, but the organisational mandate is different is what I'm saying

Doesn't map neatly to any one thing, which is why people default to popo

[manic wolf]

To be fair, the special attack shock prod thingy is, but the weapon, yeah not so much

[main trellis]

Can stop a boi for solid seconds; handy

[low harbor]

That atk is also not good at stagger, takes too long

[manic wolf]

Its a shame the Arb Shock maul exists, not because its a bad weapon or anything, but because the class that could make the best use of the base game one just has a better option

[low harbor]

Sticky as a stagger type just sucks ass

[low harbor]

Literally every attack that uses sticky as stagger type is bad at staggering lol

[lost bear]

The Arbites duckbill shotguns are doing work lol

[main trellis]

If only there were more deep blue arby colirs such as this

[manic wolf]

Its kinda goofy yeah, but you dont have to hold it on anything for very long other than Ogryns, however its inherently risky to use

[main trellis]

But thats… not lore accurate i guess?

[manic wolf]

Good at void shields tho

[lost bear]

They're more about fucking up striking workers than anything else

[main trellis]

Nice boss dmg too

[manic wolf]

Our Arb's dont have a 40mm with a posh optic on it thats for sure

[calm aurora]

the trenchcoat cosmetics has some blue parts

[tight musk]

Gunner goes flop.

[main trellis]

Its paid tho

[lost bear]

Emprah gave you Mk 1 eyeball

[final temple]

but I thought FS is famously allergic to money?!

[grand jewel]

true, need to give 40mm grenade launcher to arbites

fires shock grenades

[lost bear]

I wonder how much FS lost out with Arbites, even though DLC sold well, no cosmetics tail

[grand jewel]

for now

[tight musk]

De-escalator from Helldivers, with same glacial reload speed.

[calm aurora]

a grenade launcher would be so fucking rad

[main trellis]

Its flat; you apply it & it’s there its not like your regular dot

[grand jewel]

yeah thats what I was thinking lol

[final temple]

my beloved FS needs to get rid of FOMO and embrace free rewards passes like helldivrrs does

[grand jewel]

just so I can tell an arbites to fire a warning shot with an M32

[lost bear]

Honestly the 4000 premium dosh deal was decent

[low harbor]

They could have done at least weapon skins for them tbh

[lost bear]

If they ran that every quarter or so they'd be doing well

[grand jewel]

yeah 4k sheckles was nice

and first event that gave aquilas recently

very nice

[lost bear]

And it's not like there's absolutely nothing, but I assume GW is averse to kitbashing

[grand jewel]

eyes SM2

[drowsy relic]

2nd event

Skulls did too

[lost bear]

The premium edition had variant Arbites Carapace

[grand jewel]

oh, missed it I think

[drowsy relic]

They should also put weapons in the aquila shop on rotation

[grand jewel]

explains why they're tanky

[drowsy relic]

[manic wolf]

Rumbler, but for 'umie classes. Please no

[grand jewel]

do it

[manic wolf]

One overly used explosive weapon is enough

[low harbor]

That skin’s arm gauntlet also clips like crazy

[lost bear]

I mostly use the helmet because I like the crest better

[grand jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/more-kylo-ren-adam-driver-screaming-star-wars-gif-17734637

[lost bear]

The bulk tends to cause clipping yeah

[grand jewel]

arbites with GL and arb nades

[lost bear]

Cloak unmatched for aura though

[grand jewel]

explode direction

[manic wolf]

Merrr. I hate, no, I detest being in a lobby with a Rumblergryn

[lost bear]

Tear gas grenades

[calm aurora]

the work is already done, they just need a skin and change the values

[grand jewel]

I do too but

counterpoint

grenades

explosions

why see when not seeing is an option

[low harbor]

It’s a real shame that the best looking armor for arb also has the worst clipping issues in 1st person

[lost bear]

Honestly just make Terminus Warrant the blitz focused keystone

Throw 8 impact grenades

[drowsy relic]

The arbites GL on tabletop doesn't explode actually

[livid raven]

Terminus Warrant needs to be totally reworked

unless they want to make it weapon specialist v2

[calm aurora]

what does it do?

[lost bear]

I last played the TT when GLs had a small template for frag

And a Str 6 hit for krak

[vocal saffron]

dclaw toxin rampage adren build is so mindless and Fun

y ummeth !

[lost bear]

Temu WS too, it ain't shit

[drowsy relic]

Only piercing 1

[vocal saffron]

neeeeerdz

[lost bear]

I feel old looking at this datasheet lol

[livid raven]

grenade launchers generally suck against armor in 40k no?

[lost bear]

So it's basically a krak grenade launcher

As they do IRL, warhead is limited to like 40mm

But good enough against thin skinned vehicles and up to IFVs

[vast yoke]

that'd be fun... maybe it could enhance your blitz in different ways, perhaps ranged kills would supercharge your blitz and melee kills would provide blitz CDR, with subnodes that would give melee or ranged buffs for X seconds after using a blitz

[lost bear]

In Dark Heresy, if your character gets stronk enough, they can wield a grenade launcher in one hand. A grenade launcher has 6 shots

https://tenor.com/view/big-iron-big-gun-marty-robbins-gif-23220438

[main trellis]

even tho rockets are... insane...
alos that far right adrenaline node; it makes you not gain any on hits so if you dont have chaf to kill & face a boss gl (still strong option tho but in such a situation you gain nothing)

[manic wolf]

I would play that

Umpteen million impact grenade bullshit go!

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/the-terminator-grenade-launcher-shooting-movie-gif-25156735

so basically this

[drowsy relic]

Pretty much

Or in a funnier interpretation it's a beanbag gun

[lost bear]

Yeah split the difference between that and the Hellboy revolver

[vast yoke]

i mean anythings better and more interesting than terminus warrant rn

[manic wolf]

Trueee

TW is butt

[lavish bronze]

I can see that

[vast yoke]

trying to think of a more boring keystone

[manic wolf]

I'm not sure there is one

[vast yoke]

even the left keystone for vet is funny with like, 3 guns

[calm aurora]

despacito + vulture

[lost bear]

Marksman's Focus

[manic wolf]

Ok yeah.. thats pretty boring

[calm aurora]

MMF shotgun is goated

[patent bone]

I live for the stubbies

[lost bear]

Crabwalk edition

[lavish bronze]

I use terminus wareant on regular and its does what i want it too

[manic wolf]

Yeah MMF is gucci

[vast yoke]

tbh at least vulture does something

[patent bone]

Spycrab emote when

[lavish bronze]

That being boosting ny shotpistol

[vast yoke]

terminus warrant will drain your bank account for a piddlywink of buffs for 3 strikes

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-bean-johnny-english-arrest-him-gif-20916673

[lost bear]

When mandated edict: mauling needed over there, but you don't wanna jog

[vast yoke]

the fact it drains multiple stacks per enemy hit is such a mean scam

[vast yoke]

anyone else poopjng rn

[lavish bronze]

Its 1 stack per enemy

[manic wolf]

No, I just farted tho

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/berserk-my-honest-reaction-schnoz-gif-27191394

[vast yoke]

yeah which is really stinky and annoying! its so point intensive too

i tried so many times to get it to work

but it's so ASS

[lavish bronze]

Eh. I dont feel it

Im not saying you are wrong

[lost bear]

1 stack per attack is all it'd need to make it work

[vast yoke]

meanwhile the right keystone is absurd and left keystone is fucked up with dog builds, actually thanks to the cdr it's just fucked up

[manic wolf]

Forcefull is the most "police brutality" orientated keystone on Arb and therefor its the most fun

[vast yoke]

True

pooping rn

[livid raven]

Forceful is by far the best one to use imo

[lost bear]

Forceful is Sir Kruber isekai'd

[lavish bronze]

I have btl with tw, nuncio with eo and stance with forcefull

[vast yoke]

yeah tbh I only use the left keystone on dog builds cus it's cheap CDR and permanent uptime on the atk speed and movement on pounce buff

[manic wolf]

Nuncio is only good if you have the disco mod for it, change my mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB1EsTJI68s

[vast yoke]

honestly wish arbites had more meme builds that are in the region of almost meta but not quite. scum is packed to the brim with crap like that which is why i find it so fun

double barrel desperado scum is fun asf

[livid raven]

arbites has way too boring weapons and talents to do that

[vast yoke]

right

[lost bear]

Arbites is too serious

[tight musk]

Apparently if you activate desperado mid-reload, your next reload will be shorter cause it will continue the interrupted animation instead of starting one from scratch.

[vast yoke]

oh that explains some things

[lost bear]

Ranged Arbites does work but at the cost of Gunlugger levels of ammo hoovering

[manic wolf]

Thats why you use the above mod

[lost bear]

And you do feel like quite a fucking grub

[manic wolf]

😄

[vast yoke]

my fav way to play ranged arbi is honestly just the good old inf auto

[livid raven]

it works in the way ranged zealot works

[manic wolf]

Ranged Zealot works?

[livid raven]

no

[manic wolf]

[vast yoke]

I mean. They do okay work with the recon. Just ok not very good

[lost bear]

The spready arby shotty is a great auric mael damage farmer if you're inclined that way, but your team will hate you even there

[manic wolf]

Prefer the choke'd one tbh

[lost bear]

Nonsense to bring to Havoc

[vast yoke]

at least boltgun + impacts arbi is fun as fuck because you can use impacts like zealot throwing knives but better

[manic wolf]

Everyone loves a good choke 😏

[lavish bronze]

If team comp allows why not

[livid raven]

ranged arby is more like carried by his weapons

[vast yoke]

tbh

[main trellis]

Ego infested minds can’t be changed
Still a great mod; sadly just for the ones using it
Imagine the memes

[lost bear]

Rare that it does, usually the priority is for someone else

[vast yoke]

especially in the current meta of infinite ammo las vets, infinite ammo staff psykers, insanely ammo efficient gryns, infinite ammo scums, zealots, you can get away with hogging ammo

[manic wolf]

Please stop talking to me.

[manic wolf]

Up to a point, yes, but it can still be awkward

[vast yoke]

tru, if you're in a premade i don't see why not tho

[lost bear]

On paper yeah, in practice you gotta plan around what your buds like to play, and some of them are not easy to talk into building something that makes sense

[manic wolf]

In a premade yeah it matters a lot less

But if you're pugging, never know what atrocious decisions people have made

[vast yoke]

all of my friends listen to me because i am beautiful and smarter than them so it's quite easy if you're me

[lost bear]

I maintain that anyone who wears DKK drip is good at the game in spite of their LARP

[lost bear]

Alas I swore myself to non-violence with my friends, that includes mogging them

[verbal dew]

I love out-ammo managing vets in no ammo maelstroms, even with an arbites

[lost bear]

So I deliberately wear thick framed glasses and have shit posture

Because that worked for supes

[vast yoke]

geekmaxxing stealthchad

[main trellis]

Can't take it; its ok
Go cool off my friend; its near chrismass after all!

[lost bear]

And anne hathaway

[manic wolf]

Not that, drip, but I would trust this guy if I ran into him whilst pugging

You know he's got his shit together

[main trellis]

WHAT IS THAT COAT AND WHERE DO I GET IT

[lost bear]

Ngl unhinged drip is valid

[manic wolf]

Dude is living his best 80's warhammer life

[verbal dew]

the scum adjacent non-golden skulls one for vet

current rotation

[lost bear]

I need to pick up all the leopard print pants tbh

[verbal dew]

all classes got theirs

[calm aurora]

where's zealot's?

[verbal dew]

most are not that interesting

zealot's is prob the worst

[drowsy relic]

Zealots is also entirely based on a mini

[verbal dew]

I'll prob get ogryn's leopard ones before they rotate out

[grand jewel]

DKK?

krieg?

[lost bear]

Nipple chains for Zealots when

Yeee Death Korps

[lost bear]

The two statements are unrelated

[drowsy relic]

Wrong reply but you see the point

[verbal dew]

yeah, i still find it boring

my preferred zealot larp is candles and seals

and scriptures ofc

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/happy-clark-kent-henry-cavill-superman-gif-5252169

[verbal dew]

who'd want to actually larp with that tho

no/mini frames > all

[lost token]

Thick frames have been in fashion for a while now

[grand jewel]

I've seen so many shit DKK players lol

I figured they were wearing it for the proper larp

[lost bear]

dying as penance

[drowsy relic]

Vostroyan players now they're the strongest

[limber cradle]

I expect literally nothing but the worst from krieg larpers and the more expensive the krieg outfit looks the less I trust em

[grand jewel]

need a gold plated krieg outfit

[limber cradle]

The krieg commissar outfit? Gonna be worn by the most insufferable and worst DT players you've ever seen.

[calm aurora]

I rock my steel legion outfit

[fast gust]

I still rock my shirtless ogryn

[main trellis]

DKK?

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-yes-nodding-yeah-isaiah-mustafa-confirm-gif-25636334

[limber cradle]

Death Korps of Krieg

DKK, DKoK

[verbal dew]

or just krieg

[main trellis]

Actualy best cosmetic

[grand jewel]

don't know king

[calm aurora]

OLD-SPICE-MARINE

[neon fern]

best regiment with the worst fanbase

[limber cradle]

I really want that one but I also refuse to launch twitch to get it

[neon fern]

will make you feel shame by association guaranteed ✅

[neon fern]

i'd get it if it wasn't fucking purple

[limber cradle]

It is the ugliest camo in the world

[manic wolf]

It does look extremely goofy that one

[neon fern]

also who car

just play scum

[calm aurora]

''No I am not a nazi-lover I just like iron crosses and trenchcoats and boots and gas masks and eugenism''

[neon fern]

the only class allowed to run around half naked

[manic wolf]

https://tenor.com/view/escalated-quickly-anchorman-drinking-gif-5112090

[neon fern]

thief harness my beloved

[outer cobalt]

For real, Hivescum needs more shirts

hive scum gets only 2 shirts, and one costs Aquilas

[manic wolf]

Its the most fitting for it though if we're being honest

[neon fern]

hscum needs less shirts actually

[verbal dew]

I want more simple shirts and tanktops for all classes

[limber cradle]

I want more shit that makes me feel like a techno gladiator

[grand jewel]

I want a chestplate with the platemail one of the arms has

and leg armour like it

give

it to me

will buy for 10k aquila

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/welcome-to-the-thunder-dome-gif-12393179

[clear isle]

Ogryn

[main trellis]

Well… for now you can be a sewer diving gladiator with HS

[manic wolf]

I tested weakspot damage with no other changes btw

Less than 60 damage difference with than without

[limber cradle]

Speak for yourself, I look awesome

[manic wolf]

Thats two ticks of Chem Tox

So I took Coated instead

[main trellis]

Ok you made purple look good with that mask

[limber cradle]

Its the mask for water cartel fwiw

[main trellis]

For blinders its perfect

[manic wolf]

Mask is from store innit?

[limber cradle]

Yes

Its the first thing I've bought from the slop shop in actually 2 years

[manic wolf]

.. Coated is on crit tox

[manic wolf]

Slop shop lmao

[main trellis]

Did you tested it with your buffs active? Who did you smack to test it?

[manic wolf]

I did look at the masks, but they look too much like the pog-face, or a cartoon duck honk from the side so I decided against it

[limber cradle]

Reminds me of a chaos space marine ngl

[manic wolf]

Multiple targets, Ragers, Gunners, Crusher, breakpoints didnt change

[main trellis]

Cause on unyielding you gain like ~200 dmg from 1900

[manic wolf]

Not that breakpoints really matter all that much with Hyperviolence, but still

[main trellis]

Breakpoints don’t matter that much in havoc anyways; hp buffs & all

[limber cradle]

Ik one of the concept arts for scum has the helmet in it too so maybe we get the rest of that set

[manic wolf]

There was some mad cool concept art for Scum, I hope we see some of it as drip

[unreal stirrup]

workplace safety

RAH

[limber cradle]

Likewise, big time.

[manic wolf]

https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/094/269/117/4k/miguel-iglesias-migueliglesiasart-hivescum-artstation-016.webp?1764929323 Also when tf do we get this damn gun

[neon fern]

never

[manic wolf]

Sadly, probably not

[limber cradle]

Mf keeps putting heavy stubbers in concept art

[main trellis]

What about buffs? Did you tested with them? 75% power, 20% str & 25% melee dmg ain’t small for buffing

[neon fern]

veteran concept art also features heavy stubbers

[manic wolf]

I tested it with Adrenaline active

[main trellis]

Test it with multiplicatives

[manic wolf]

I tested it with my baseline, the only time it's going to make any difference is vs bosses, and Tox is going to do more over the course of killing one of those

[limber cradle]

The rest of this armor would go fuckin insane

[manic wolf]

Ohhh shit

[main trellis]

Imagine… anti carapace gun on HS

[manic wolf]

It gets the revolver

Though equally you can just like.. beat the shit out of them

You dont need a gun to do it

[limber cradle]

Big fan of the Stalker suit too

[manic wolf]

Thats one I would actually grab if it was in the shop tbh

That sword would make a pretty sweet skin for Catachan blade too

[limber cradle]

Theres a lot of concept art shit I would grab for scum

[manic wolf]

I gotta salute Fatshark's art team, I really do

They're so fckin good

[main trellis]

You haven’t tested it with multiplicatives; until you do the opinion on weakspot not doing much is… far fetched to say the least no offence
Do it for both of us & the community
Be the man we need; one who actualy tests stuff & gives numbers

[main trellis]

Art & music was always on point

[drowsy relic]

Miguel is a monster

[manic wolf]

Im gonna stick with the thing that makes sense for the situation that the damage is actually gonna be relevant, thanks

[limber cradle]

The literal only 40k game that looks better than Darktide is Deathwing tbh

[main trellis]

The fact they managed to get Jesper Kid was a massive W

[manic wolf]

I have that, but I've not played it thus far

[grand jewel]

huh

[manic wolf]

Should really get round to that

[limber cradle]

Its very dead

[limber cradle]

Can you please refine your question

[manic wolf]

Thats sad, I do have a pal who has it too, so we could probably manage

Apparently the bots are worse than Darktide's from what he's said

[novel dune]

Still waiting for them to post the soundtrack for the new mission, that shit bangs

[manic wolf]

Which is.. quite the achievement

[main trellis]

I’ll take that W
(Will still test it once i come home for fun )

[toxic dagger]

deathwing is extreme eurojank

[final temple]

by the Throne, that game is jank.

[main trellis]

In comparrison to v2; YES

[toxic dagger]

I bought it for 5 euros and the environmental textures used in the tutorial gave me such intense whiplash that I immediately returned it

[manic wolf]

And Darktide doesnt have any Eurojank? 😄

[limber cradle]

Once you realize it's made by the E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy people it makes a lot of sense

[final temple]

compared to Deathwing, Darktide is AAAA.

[toxic dagger]

not in that sense

[manic wolf]

Ho hum, I didnt forget the patch where dogs would break thier necks jumping into walls

[main trellis]

That razorjaw sword gives me lotr vibes

[toxic dagger]

darktide has a lot of polish and production value put into things like animations, sound design, music, voice acting, graphics

[sand haven]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkTide/comments/1n470ge/bot_ai_update/

Look how dumb these bot are.

[limber cradle]

Like the uruk hai, yeah

[manic wolf]

It do, but it still has a lot of jank 😄

[final temple]

Deathwing basically declared UI/UX hereticus extremis

[toxic dagger]

the jank is present but localised to gameplay bugs and dumb systems

[novel dune]

gutter runners still explode themselves into a cloud of blood if they hit the wrong wall lol

[sand haven]

That was 4 months ago. Bots just standing right next to you. Never bother to attempt to pick you up. Only time bots are decent is when they trigger a Daemonhost.

[main trellis]

Flamer HS

[limber cradle]

I will encroach on zealot and ogryn

I will get a flamer and HStub

[limber cradle]

It impresses the hell outta me you can read the purity seals in it

[manic wolf]

Scum would probably make better use of both tbh

Though at least Flamer would be kinda shit with Desperado, that being said.. Pickpocket

[main trellis]

Oh i misstook those 2

[drowsy relic]

Eurojank is a particular jank

Like moving feels weird

[limber cradle]

Deathwing is very jank

It predates a lot of modern 40k game quality

Back in the day it was the premier co op experience tho

[sand haven]

That's disgusting. You'd probably be able to hold down the fire button for an entire round in Mortis Trials.

[limber cradle]

And tbh I am consistently impressed by how much visual detail is in it

[final temple]

they sacrificed thenUI/UX designer to appease the dark gods of model design

[limber cradle]

And the gameplay balancer

[drowsy relic]

Beautiful rendition of a space hulk and it costs the game being awful

[manic wolf]

Apparently its exceptionally unfair

[drowsy relic]

For example did you know if you swap the weapon on your medic then he can't heal anymore

[limber cradle]

Uh

It feels like fighting genestealers in a hulk

And by that I mean sometimes you just die

[manic wolf]

Sounds about right

[limber cradle]

But like

Chaplain is also literally invincible and revives everyone

Its very dumb

[grand jewel]

huh?

[manic wolf]

Im not paying Ordo Dockets for that

[viral pawn]

question guys. I have my stim cd being 51 secs yet I cant use it before my stacks of chemical dependecy runs out and it is supose to be 60 secs with the "right" tallent. Is the stim cd bugged or something?

[coarse creek]

are you factoring in stim active time?

[limber cradle]

Yeah, stim only cools down when it's not in use

[coarse creek]

stim active time 15s, cd 51 sec, you aren't going to hit stacks

[grand jewel]

Proof?

[limber cradle]

My game isn't open

If yours is you can pop it in psyk and physically see it not cooldown even with stimm collector until its over ime

[sand haven]

You can if you use the talent that reduces cooldown and just land a few kills

[final temple]

Sample Collector. Also, iirc dispersing via supply starts the cooldown right away too. somebody correct me.

[sand haven]

You're correct cause the stim application is on the crate, not on you

So your stim goes on CD immediately

You might need to walk out and walk back into your crate for your own buff

[viral pawn]

ah I see okay

will make it shorter I guess then

[sand haven]

You can also use that needle pistol with the spread mark. Just fire into a horde and your cooldown is almost instantly gone.

[vast yoke]

you could just play with 3 stacks, that's a common way to play around it

after all you're spending 1 extra point for a weaker stim and arguably not very big buffs that become a headache to maintain for a lot of builds :P

[unreal stirrup]

you can alway double crate

you can easily keep 4 stack of dependency in combat with 75s cd stim

[vast yoke]

yeah if you're running a crate build its pretty easy