6 has best ammo efficiency
#veteran-class
bitter turtle
tall torrent
it's context dependent
if u do 1v1 solo boss without stagger spam, axe is better
if u can stagger lock bosses, power sword hits higher burst dmg when they're staggered
pastel yew
the charge guts it's effectiveness for ps
bitter turtle
Havoc hitmass ruins the 14 cleave
umbral parrot
Still going to only use Power Sword.
pastel yew
it's context dependent
if u do 1v1 solo boss without stagger spam, axe is better...
hmm I'll take your word for it, I dont know the funny attack loop tech
nor do I intend to learn it really
tall torrent
VIc / XIV
depends on what u like more
umbral parrot
Will never change
pastel yew
Still going to only use Power Sword.
no ones tryna stop you like
you dont have to use the best weapon
power sword is the best weapon if you dont take melee perks without a doubt anyway
jaunty sphinx
ty! was using that XII, that was prob my issue
tall torrent
hmm I'll take your word for it, I dont know the funny attack loop tech
if u have strong stagger team that can stagger lock bosses (krak + VoC + chorus + taunt, smth like that)
bitter turtle
ty! was using that XII, that was prob my issue
Yea that's the meme mark
tall torrent
power sword can hit really hard in these stagger windows
pastel yew
if u have strong stagger team that can stagger lock bosses (krak + VoC + chorus ...
I didnt know taunt sctually staggered bosses
bitter turtle
It has worst ammo efficiency and only marginally higher raw dps
pastel yew
basically never see that
tall torrent
I didnt know taunt sctually staggered bosses
did ogrynomicon never mention it
pastel yew
I havent read it
steep grail
I didnt know taunt sctually staggered bosses
ogryn players don't either
pastel yew
I've not really played ogryn
I'm gonna be playing more ogryn now the new stubber is out but
man their movement feels so ass
umbral parrot
Boo. They were fun
pastel yew
what was fun
umbral parrot
Ogryn
pastel yew
idk all the ogryn weapons dont really appeal to me
umbral parrot
Stopped playing after FNP nerf
pastel yew
they're all 0 aim skill weapons except the new one
tall torrent
give ogryns +0.25m/s base sprint bonus and they'll be fun I promise u
pastel yew
and the grenadier gauntlet
umbral parrot
Still my most played class
tall torrent
pastel yew
give ogryns +0.25m/s base sprint bonus and they'll be fun I promise u
for real
steep grail
FIX THE OGRYN VAULT BUG
pastel yew
why do they move as fast as the psyker
it feels so much worse because of their height
tall torrent
just keep psyker as slowest base sprint speed
umbral parrot
Strong legs
pastel yew
strong legs except they cant really move
umbral parrot
They can
tall torrent
cuz most of their weapons' sprint bonus are horrible lol
steep grail
is hitting a button and enabling everyone else to do more damage
that doesn't feel good to play to me
pastel yew
I think ogryns are fine in regular auric to be fair
umbral parrot
I was sooooo damn good as an Ogryn.
pastel yew
they're just sorta lame
steep grail
you press F everything takes a fuckton more damage
pastel yew
outside of the meme value
steep grail
I think ogryns are fine in regular auric to be fair
yeah its regular auric
pastel yew
most of their weapons require 0 skill to aim, most of their melee does more displacement than damage
umbral parrot
They're not meme status, just limited in builds
pastel yew
it's not that they're bad they just have lots of little unsatisfying things
gun lugger is pretty good
gun lugger boss damage is nutty
even post nerf
steep grail
you can do auric damnation talentless if you REALLY want to
umbral parrot
you can do auric damnation talentless if you REALLY want to
Yes please
steep grail
gun lugger boss damage is nutty
boss damage is generally solid on ogryn though
even outside of gunlugger
pastel yew
their defence is also solid, an ogryn with shield is basically unkillable
tall torrent
Gunlugger is good at it, that’s about it
steep grail
the borovian and branx give you fine boss damage
pastel yew
playing with some ogryns has that trauma staff infuriation though
steep grail
i don't think its anything to sneeze at
umbral parrot
Ehh....
pastel yew
especially since I tend to used ranged weapons that can one shot
you about to kill something, they knock it over
constantly
tall torrent
i don't think its anything to sneeze at
They’re just acceptable with ogryn/psyker standards
pastel yew
me on my way to use batter stacks to kill burgle
psyker boss damage is fine?
I'd say consistently better than ogryn, but worse than gun lugger
tall torrent
psyker boss damage is fine?
Bad, outside of gun psyker
steep grail
isnt surge passable at boss damage
pastel yew
nah brain rupture + empowered is good
you wont kill a boss outright
but you're going to nuke it to 25%
pretty rapidly
umbral parrot
The best player I've ever seen was a Gun Psyker. They do all
tall torrent
isnt surge passable at boss damage
900 ish damage per fully charged M2 surely is gonna do numbers to a plague ogryn
pastel yew
the best player I've ever seen was a voidstrike psyker
steep grail
The best player I've ever seen was a Gun Psyker. They do all
its because gunker is stupid broken
just also quite hard
pastel yew
unironically made me feel like an absolute chump while playing plasma gun vet
I have no idea how they were so insane
errant dragon
What are the ideal perks on relics noaways? Still toughness regen, health, and stam regen? blessing of max health?
tall torrent
I have no idea how they were so insane
Cuz psyker is broken op lol
Any psyker with a healthy amount of self respect towards melee is immediately broken
pastel yew
Cuz psyker is broken op lol
I dunno man I wouldnt say voidstrike psyker is stronger than plasma gun vet, gun psker can put out more dps but
umbral parrot
I am jealous
pastel yew
comparing build to build I had the advantage and got clowned on
umbral parrot
I want to be that broken
tall torrent
comparing build to build I had the advantage and got clowned on
Plasma gun is not the highest damage build for veteran
pastel yew
you are that broken vets overprivileged as hell
steep grail
the mortals don't get to compare to psyker
pastel yew
Plasma gun is not the highest damage build for veteran
for elite clear I'd say it is?
steep grail
its just the way it is
tall torrent
for elite clear I'd say it is?
No
pastel yew
what would you say is better
tall torrent
Exe Boltgun is prob the highest damage build on veteran
pastel yew
ah well
this was before that
exe boltgun before was a little rough due to reload being aids
umbral parrot
you are that broken vets overprivileged as hell
Am I? Psykers and Zealots are up there. Just by a bit
pastel yew
but I think that got adjusted
pastel yew
Am I? Psykers and Zealots are up there. Just by a bit
I'd still say vet is the best
psyker is the most op for damage
but vet is barely worse and has everything else giga too
you have no weak point
umbral parrot
you have no weak point
I think that's all but Ogryn.
pastel yew
maybe now psyker has more base toughness...
but their toughness is pretty reliant on warp damage which can be funky depending on what you're running
zealot is just sorta fine
steep grail
zealot is
pastel yew
idk they have a handful of giga broken node
umbral parrot
Sorta!?
tall torrent
Psyker > veteran ≈ zealot > ogryn
steep grail
a bit more than sorta fine
pastel yew
most of the zealot tree is garbage
pastel yew
yeah thats one of the handful
duelist is giga strength
the new power greatsword feels killer on them
steep grail
zealot is completely unkillable and does a fuckton of damage what more could you want
tall torrent
Zealot is the only class in the game with actual i-frames
pastel yew
but most melee weapons just feel worse on zealot than vet, outside of fury
pastel yew
Zealot is the only class in the game with actual i-frames
other classes dont get iframes on their dodge?
tall torrent
other classes dont get iframes on their dodge?
Sorry we’re not playing dark souls
pastel yew
it definitely feels like we playing dark souls
pastel yew
weird
tall torrent
Dodge disables enemy tracking
pastel yew
it definitely feels like I've dodged things I definitely shouldnt have
umbral parrot
Define I-frame
pastel yew
but I guess its just hitbox jank
pastel yew
Define I-frame
invulnerability frames, time you cant be damaged
steep grail
And not in VT1 & VT2 either iirc
not in vt2
tall torrent
You can still get hit by attacks if u dodge into their hit box
steep grail
i-frames do not exist in that game
umbral parrot
Cool....
tall torrent
Zealot has actual i-frames during FotF dash
pastel yew
so in dark souls for example you maybe have 8 iframes. you press the roll key, for 8 frames you cant be damaged
steep grail
zealot has something as busted as FotF and it STILL isn't their best ability
zealot is so fucked
pastel yew
chorus is so fucking boring
pastel yew
I dunno I'd say fotf is better than stealth
steep grail
i wouldn't
pastel yew
its toughness, movement and giga attack speed
steep grail
well
tall torrent
Stealth is like what
steep grail
i think they're about equal actually
pastel yew
attack speed is multiplicative strength, and the only way to get more out of weapons with one shot breakpoints
pastel yew
3 extra point tax or take the worst aura in the game
most of the shit above that aura is also garbage
no matter what you get a shit node
tall torrent
most of the shit above that aura is also garbage
Nah
tall torrent
Dance of death + TWBS + grievous wounds
Good balance is also good
Grievous wounds is a massively underrated talent
umbral parrot
Grievous wounds is a massively underrated talent
Yeeees
pastel yew
I wouldnt really say I like grievous wounds so
maybe you're right on it being underrated
dance with death my beloved it though
based talent
why doesnt vet get it
who knows
umbral parrot
It's what keeps Ragers in line as I melee into them
pastel yew
does zealot really struggle with ragers though?
I feel most of their weapons handle em pretty readily
also if you're taking stealth like
free
steep grail
everything is free if you take stealth
umbral parrot
does zealot really struggle with ragers though?
The 50 Rager test is what I do to test if it's good
pastel yew
nah stealth is just sorta cool funny boss damage
fury of the faithful is degen broken
tall torrent
does zealot really struggle with ragers though?
Do u know what weapons can stagger ragers and what can’t
steep grail
you have to try very hard to die with stealth
pastel yew
The 50 Rager test is what I do to test if it's good
you often fighting 50 ragers?
pastel yew
Do u know what weapons can stagger ragers and what can’t
no, as all the weapons I'm using on zealot either stagger or insta kill them
especially since fury lets you engage on them before they start their combo
umbral parrot
I do if I want to test myself out.
tall torrent
Yea, FotF does the stagger part for u lol
pastel yew
I feel like constrained tests would be more accurate though
tall torrent
Broken ability
umbral parrot
The best mod
pastel yew
creature spawner doesnt let you close in the walls lmao
though theres probably a mod that lets you offline play empty maps
to test shit like this
I just dont think fighting 50 ragers in a huge open area really gives much useful information
umbral parrot
Pretend there is a wall. E Z
pastel yew
vs like 8-12 in a tight space
pastel yew
Pretend there is a wall. E Z
true
umbral parrot
Fax
pastel yew
pastel yew
yummers
iron marten
obtuse wasp
What would be the best blessings for a Dueling Sword?
edgy sluice
obtuse wasp
Thanks!
errant dragon
Boltgun worth running if not using Exe?
cobalt ingot
Is mobility considered a dump stat for power sword?
grand perch
cleave target
ocean shell
So what was everyone’s strategy for the weapon specialist penance?
ocean shell
Currently I have a very stupid build involving a 450% crit chance and a revolver
crude fiber
Currently I have a very stupid build involving a 450% crit chance and a revolver
weapon spec and surgical?
crude fiber
Boltgun worth running if not using Exe?
boltgun is usable in high havoc without exe so it can be used anywhere
polar quiver
Is being forced to play at 30 fov when using exe stance just a feature or is there a way to counteract this?
Like, ill use it, then be forced into melee and ill be at 30 fov for like a minute
errant dragon
What's the ideal relic setup for Vet?
orchid hemlock
What's a relic? 🤔
errant dragon
yeah those
orchid hemlock
It's sorta personal preference
But I personally go for main stats: 2 HP, 1 Tough
For perks I go:
3 toughness, 3 SE, 2 gunner resist, 1 sniper resist
tough tiger
No stamina is gonna get you killed
austere mica
I run 3 toughness main stat with 3 tough secondary stat, 3 gunner res, and 3 Stam regen
I add a stamina with the same perks if I play knife or deadshot
orchid hemlock
Vet had good base stamina, it's the regen that is the problem
Only reason to get it is if the melee weapon uses push attacks again
brittle lava
Can agree with Carpets there. Although there's an argument to be made for running health/stam in high havoc instead of toughness, but I'm still not sure there.
I also like ability cdr, but gunner resist is solid instead
orchid hemlock
Or deadshot
orchid hemlock
Can agree with Carpets there. Although there's an argument to be made for runnin...
CDR is a bait perk imo
austere mica
3.6 seconds
orchid hemlock
At 3 CDR perks you only decrease shout by about 4 seconds
austere mica
For 3 slots
tacit sonnet
what else are you putting instead of cdr?
austere mica
Stam regen or gunner resist
tacit sonnet
It's not like there are a ton of super useful perks
orchid hemlock
Gunner resit, toughness, SE, stamina regen, health
brittle lava
It's so-so. I like it moreso in Havoc where you're often spamming ability as much as possible. I'd argue the majority of perks don't have a strong impact after toughness and stam regen
orchid hemlock
All of those are constantly useful
tacit sonnet
Gunner resist is just bait. slide + don't suck is all it takes to not take damage from gunners
austere mica
Oh hey a tanner watcher
orchid hemlock
Gunner resist is just bait. slide + don't suck is all it takes to not take damag...
No
tough tiger
Yeah as if u never make a mistake blud
tacit sonnet
Oh hey a tanner watcher
who?
orchid hemlock
Even if you slide perfectly this is impossible
Havoc also buffs shooters, you cannot constantly slide to dodge everything
tacit sonnet
Even if you slide perfectly this is impossible
I used to run 3 gunner resists, then I took off all 3 and noticed 0 difference
austere mica
Gunner resist is just bait. slide + don't suck is all it takes to not take damag...
Ok sure I’ll slide 24/7 on my 4 dodge weapon while fighting a bulwark, 2 ragers, and a mauler
tacit sonnet
On havoc 40 if gunners are shooting at you, you are dead either way, resist or not
brittle lava
3 gunner resist will about double your survivability against them, which isn't nothing. I sometimes take it on classes where I don't care for the other perks on them
orchid hemlock
Anecdotal experiences doesn't mean you are immune to gunners
tacit sonnet
Ok sure I’ll slide 24/7 on my 4 dodge weapon while fighting a bulwark, 2 ragers,...
That's where the don't suck part comes in, where you have to either deal with gunners, get to cover or don't get in their los in the first place. Simply sliding and dodging is not enough
orchid hemlock
But like I said you can take many other perks that is more useful than 4 seconds of cooldown
tacit sonnet
cdr is not the best, but it's nice
orchid hemlock
Even other resistences if you don't like gunner
tacit sonnet
It's not completely useless or bait
brittle lava
My argument is that 4 seconds of cooldown is often about as good if not better than the other options
Especially on high havoc where you're spamming for bonus toughness
tacit sonnet
4 seconds is a lot
brittle lava
+5% of toughness and +12% stam recovery is pretty huge to me, the rest I don't care that much about so cooldown reduction is pretty easy to justify imo
tacit sonnet
Usually I take some health and toughness, 2-3 stam recovery and fill the rest with cdr
Block efficency is good, but I'm not a fan of it
orchid hemlock
It is, because unless you use the ability off cooldown it's value is dependant heavily on what happening in the game
tacit sonnet
I prefer stamina for push attacks
orchid hemlock
You should not use shout off cooldown for no reason
tacit sonnet
stam recovery is probably the best perk you could put on curious
orchid hemlock
I'm sorry to say this
brittle lava
Havoc 40 often has you filling in any time bonus toughness falls off
orchid hemlock
Shout is very useful both as a CC tool and a toughness reset tool
brittle lava
It's pretty common to have something like chorus zealots rotating ability uses, same logic for shout veteran
orchid hemlock
It's pretty common to have something like chorus zealots rotating ability uses, ...
Zealot is even more of a trap because it doesn't stack with the CDR talents
tacit sonnet
When fighting, it's not uncommon for me to spam f off cooldown
orchid hemlock
If it was 10 seconds or so I might justify it
But 4 seconds nah, I prefer the survivability 🤷🏻
Shout isn't going to save u 24/7
brittle lava
I'm honestly just not getting hit by gunners often at all in high havoc haha, usually they're suppressed by chorus or shooting into bubble
tacit sonnet
like I said, cdr perk is not amazing. But it's not useless. It's just okay
brittle lava
But I hear you on its general usefulness
orchid hemlock
like I said, cdr perk is not amazing. But it's not useless. It's just okay
What I'm saying is CDR can be useless if you don't use the ability off cooldown
Because if you wait 4 seconds before you use shout when it is off cooldown, you wasted those 3 perks for nothing.
It also is useless if you proc your CDR talents to get the cooldown back.
It's conditional to what is happening in the game, I prefer things that have 100% viability across all games in the entire run
tacit sonnet
It's not there's many good perks to use
brittle lava
And gunner resist often does about nothing in Havoc because a lot of the current meta builds counter them directly (chorus, bubble). Whereas I see people spamming those abilities all the time on cooldown just to minimise the team's vulnerability.
I do like gunner resist for auric and stuff though, makes it easier to just wade right into a gunner pack to kill them in melee, which tends to be the quickest/easiest method
tacit sonnet
There are like only 4 good ones
orchid hemlock
And gunner resist often does about nothing in Havoc because a lot of the current...
None of the perks work nearly as well in Havoc than they do in Aurics
However Resistence is much more valuable due to the fact that HP and Toughness are gutted via percentage drops the higher you go
broken spade
I think cdr curios are decent just for the simple reason that curio perks suck ass
sorry but i don't think 7.5hp is saving your ass either
brittle lava
None of the perks work nearly as well in Havoc than they do in Aurics
However R...
Yeeeee, but most games the resistance isn't doing anything anyway
Whereas that mode has me using ability on CD much more often than the other modes
Since you have the team's abilities to buffer you while you're on CD
orchid hemlock
Whereas that mode has me using ability on CD much more often than the other mode...
Why?
Overtoughnes doesn't save you from gunner fire either
It just gives you more toughness, which you can do with toughness curios or gunner resist
That's the whole point
The toughness you get from shout is also gutted BTW in Havoc
brittle lava
Bonus toughness gives you a massive, quickly refilling buffer. A buffer that is even stronger in Havoc, since it's proportionally more of your total mitigation
orchid hemlock
I don't understand
Overtoughnes protects you from HP chipping, that is true
But you do not take HP damage from fire anyways until you reach 0 toughness
So if you have 200 toughness that is overcapped or not overcapped, it provides the same exact protection from gunner fire
brittle lava
So, your base toughness is reduced as you go up. Bonus toughness is a flat bonus and isn't reduced. So, this has more value compared to Auric since it's proportionally more of your toughness being regenerated/overcapped.
So you get this, as well as the natural knockback and protection of shout/chorus. And this defends against shooters too, which are vicious little buggers you can't curio against
broken spade
So, your base toughness is reduced as you go up. Bonus toughness is a flat bonus...
yeah this is true
I appreciate 50 overtoughness a lot more when i have only 60 toughness vs when I'm at 105
steep grail
I think cdr curios are decent just for the simple reason that curio perks suck a...
cdr is just massively useful all the time
i cant really think of any situation where you wouldnt want the most cdr possible
orchid hemlock
The bonus toughness you recieve still stacks from the limited toughness you have
The CDR doesn't change the overcapped toughness value, just the frequency the ability it can be used
broken spade
the bonus toughness isn't reduced by the toughness penalty
broken spade
toughness penalty in havoc is just a flat -45 to base, multiplied by curios
orchid hemlock
the bonus toughness isn't reduced by the toughness penalty
Yes I am aware, did I state otherwise?
broken spade
shout is a +50
brittle lava
Bonus toughness also really helps your toughness resist stats shine
broken spade
it's proportionally more
brittle lava
Without bonus toughness it's hard to get proper mileage out of them
orchid hemlock
i cant really think of any situation where you *wouldnt* want the most cdr possi...
I already explained why this isn't the case
broken spade
I also think the amount of times people die with 2 seconds left on the ability timer is way more common than dying due to not having 22 more hp or some bomber res
Keep in mind we have 3 curio stats. CDR only needs to be in 3rd place for usefulness too
brittle lava
Ye like, the amount of mileage the team gets out of spamming abilities cannot be overstated for high havoc
It's not the only way to win, but it's sort of the meta atm
Well, spamming while rotating turns
serene bough
my curios have block efficiency, sprint efficiency, stam regen x2, CDR x3
steep grail
Ye like, the amount of mileage the team gets out of spamming abilities cannot be...
i also feel like even in auric maelstroms and hell sometimes even regular auric damnation
shout is used on cooldown
most of the time
brittle lava
True! It's one of the abilities you get a lot of mileage out of just by maintaining uptime
Better than rarely using it
broken spade
It's also like, kinda selfish to go for survivability over using a team buff more.
Like that gunner res isn't doing much for your team
just don't die and help the team more
orchid hemlock
CDR is not "meta"
I honestly don't even think in high havocs that curios matter that much outside of stamina due to the damage and stat mitigation
If you are using shout literally off cooldown you are not using shot optimally
I'm sorry 🤷🏻
steep grail
its best used almost immediately after cooldown most of the time
orchid hemlock
The only ability in the game you can justify using off cooldown is barrier
brittle lava
I'd argue ability spam is meta, as is bonus toughness, and it is the only curio perk that helps both of these points
For havoc. Auric I tend to build more selfishly and use abilities situationally
broken spade
I mean not literally every time, but you should be using that cooldown reduction a fair bit
steep grail
shroudfield can also be used off cooldown because you get it back in 5 seconds but thats just because zealot is like that
broken spade
Also i would hate to be that guy who's like "sorry i couldn't shout to save you 2 seconds ago, i needed to be able to stand in a gunner line a bit longer"
not that i'm shitting on gunner res
i actually think it's fine
orchid hemlock
shroudfield can also be used off cooldown because you get it back in 5 seconds b...
Shroud isn't used off cooldown, it is used to to spike crit damage with duelist/precog or to do an objective, or to reset toughness
brittle lava
not that i'm shitting on gunner res
Ye same! Again, it's a curio perk I like for pingponging gunners in melee in auric
Lets you solo stuff with more ease
steep grail
Shroud isn't used off cooldown, it is used to to spike crit damage with duelist/...
im not saying you should
just that you can totally get away with it
and be in stealth 90% of the game for it
brittle lava
In havoc the fact gunners telegraph so much and are so heavily countered by what most people are running means that I just don't get hit by them much. Not because of skill or whatever, they just don't get many chances to shoot
Shooters I find scarier since they can shred you in one volley if you don't have bonus toughness while you're just running around
broken spade
I just think that if you need 3 selfish perks over something that can save your entire team, idk that's kinda a skill issue.
Do what you need to if you can't survive without it though. Would rather you not die
orchid hemlock
and be in stealth 90% of the game for it
The point I'm making is that 3.6 seconds for 3 perks isn't worth it on an ability like shout that isn't optimal to use off cooldown 🤷🏻
steep grail
getting shout back faster is good regardless of if you're using it off cooldown or not
orchid hemlock
And if something isn't being used off cooldown, or not interacting with the CDR talents in your tree. You waste those perks anyways
steep grail
it's why tactical awareness is so good
brittle lava
I only really hold off on using a gold toughness generating ability in havoc 40 if everyone has gold toughness and no one's in danger. Otherwise I might as well use it
In which case I'd prefer if it was off cooldown
polar quiver
getting shout back faster is good regardless of if you're using it off cooldown ...
spam shout as 4 veterans
FOR THE GUARD
orchid hemlock
getting shout back faster is good regardless of if you're using it off cooldown ...
Yes it does, if you don't use shout 3.6 seconds after it comes off cooldown you wasted the 3 slots
broken spade
You will sometimes do that though
orchid hemlock
Like I don't think you are comprehending this
broken spade
you're lying if you're saying you'd never use it off cooldown
brittle lava
Yes it does, if you don't use shout 3.6 seconds after it comes off cooldown you ...
And if you don't get shot at all by a gunner in a match because they're all suppressed by chorus and blocked by bubble?
The resist was pointless
orchid hemlock
The CDR perks are only useful if you constantly use those abilities in that 3.6 second windows
brittle lava
ANd that's really not that rare in havoc because of how much people rotate those abilities
steep grail
The CDR perks are only useful if you constantly use those abilities in that 3.6 ...
this happens VERY CONSISTENTLY with shuot
broken spade
As soon as 1 situation happens where you need it 3 seconds earlier, it has saved you
steep grail
shout*
broken spade
It doesn't need to be literally every time
Have you never died with shout 1 second off?
have you never seen someone else die with shout 1 second off?
orchid hemlock
ANd that's really not that rare in havoc because of how much people rotate those...
Also you seem to be very "meta" this and "meta" that when I have won havocs with no golden toughness or with non defensive builds
It is very much possible
orchid hemlock
this happens VERY CONSISTENTLY with shuot
Then you are using shout incorrectly
In fact I would argue that even in a golden focused Havoc, you shouldn't waste the shout when a book Zealot already used their golden toughness
brittle lava
Yep, I've run all sorts of builds in high havoc. I just know that people tend to run the same things
brittle lava
Then you are using shout incorrectly
In fact I would argue that even in a golde...
Well yeah, no one's arguing you shouldn't use some degree of strategy
broken spade
There's also a few times where i wish a teammate would use their ability 2 seconds sooner
orchid hemlock
Well yeah, no one's arguing you shouldn't use some degree of strategy
So if you have another source of golden toughness, you agree you are not using the ability off cooldown?
brittle lava
Yep! No one (hopefully) is literally spamming their abilities
broken spade
why does this need to be mindlessly used every time off cooldown to be valuable?
orchid hemlock
If you are not using the ability off cooldown, CDR perks become useless
broken spade
This is like saying you need to run into every gunner bullet you see to get value out of gunner res
brittle lava
It's just not uncommon to use it on cooldown in certain situations
broken spade
these are all situational
orchid hemlock
That's it, good to know we agree even if you don't want to admit it 🚶🏻♂️
orchid hemlock
these are all situational
Using abilities Off cooldown is situational
broken spade
yes
brittle lava
Bro 😭 I'm just talking about videogame numbers, you don't gotta be like that
brittle lava
Yeee. And gunner resist is also situational
orchid hemlock
it's a situation that happens
Guys let me get 3 bomber resist because of a specific situation
broken spade
It's not worthless just because you're not doing it every time
brittle lava
There's been games where it would've made 0 difference
orchid hemlock
Hell, bomber resist is more viable than CDR
brittle lava
whaaaat
iron marten
jesus
hollow bane
If you used it one time within the 3 seconds in the match and it saved you it could potentially save the match, so value ez.
brittle lava
How many havocs are you getting downed by bombers of all things
orchid hemlock
How many havocs are you getting downed by bombers of all things
Not many, but more times it becomes useful than 3.6 seconds
orchid hemlock
Toughness, HP, gunner resist, SE, SR, sniper resist
broken spade
Okay so 3 hp perks is 22.5 hp on a vet
hollow bane
💀💀👀
brittle lava
And even less in havoc
broken spade
because if you have more than 22.5hp, you aren't actually gaining any value from that health
See what I mean? All perks are dogshit
orchid hemlock
What % of games do you live on 22.5hp?
22 HP between 200 and 222 HP is the difference of going down from a pox burster or a sniper
broken spade
okay but how often has that actually happened?
hollow bane
You shouldn't be getting hit by snipers?
broken spade
It's probably once every couple games yeah?
there's probably entire games where it didn't do anything
where you would've lived anyways without those perks
orchid hemlock
You shouldn't be getting hit by snipers?
Tru Just play the game perfectly, the best perks are actually ortho dockets, xp, and curio drops 
orchid hemlock
It's probably once every couple games yeah?
Worst case scenarios are the whole point of using curios
All the toughness in the world won't save you from a sniper, overhead, or poxburster
That's why I take HP
brittle lava
Why wouldn't getting cooldown faster fulfill a worst case scenario solution
orchid hemlock
Why wouldn't getting cooldown faster fulfill a worst case scenario solution
Because that situation is conditional
brittle lava
All of these are conditional
broken spade
living on 22 hp is a pretty tight condition ngl
orchid hemlock
All of these are conditional
Nope, I always have that sfatey 100% of the time with HP
brittle lava
If you didn't need that health that game, it was a condition that didn't happen
broken spade
I think it happened last game i played but i can't say that's the norm
orchid hemlock
CDR requires the cooldown to be off
brittle lava
You 100% of the time have a faster cooldown, too
orchid hemlock
You 100% of the time have a faster cooldown, too
Nope
Wrong I already explained twice now
brittle lava
Which can be useless in the same way as having extra health in a game where you were never downed would be
It's the same logic, the difference is how often those situations actually occur. Which, we can argue about
But there's no actual difference in ideas here
orchid hemlock
If the cooldown is still down, the situation doesn't exist. If you use it past the 3.6 second mark, the value is irrelevant
broken spade
I don't think hp is the worst thing either but this goes to show up dogshit even one of the better perks are
brittle lava
If you never went down
broken spade
like hp is a fine perk
brittle lava
The health did nothing
broken spade
and it's still kinda not doing anything
orchid hemlock
That 3.6 second windows is the only time CDR perk is justified
broken spade
Yeah and that window happens repeatedly
you would probably get benefit out of it a few times a match
the whole team would, in fact
hollow bane
You use shout like 40 times a game and any of those the 3.6 seconds could save you
broken spade
I think you are statistically less likely to benefit from 22.5 hp than you are from the ability to use your ability 3 seconds earlier
orchid hemlock
Preparing the worst case scenario within a 3.6 second windows is conditional to the situation that presents itself
orchid hemlock
I think you are statistically less likely to benefit from 22.5 hp than you are f...
I'll take a pin on your opinion
brittle lava
If I don't take gunner resist, and then my toughness is never broken that match, if I'd taken gunner resist it would've been a waste
broken spade
no but if you never lived on 22.5 hp, not taking it never killed you
which means it did nothing
it's not like having the hp is a buff to anything
orchid hemlock
If I don't take gunner resist, and then my toughness is never broken that match,...
If you take gunner resist, any situation where you get shot at it has value
broken spade
it is strictly for surviving
orchid hemlock
The 3.6 second isn't
broken spade
and it did not help you survive
If you don't die without it, it genuinely did nothing
brittle lava
If you take gunner resist, any situation where you get shot at it has value
Not if it wouldn't have made a difference
If I take 10 damage as opposed to 20 from a gunner, it doesn't matter if I just refill my toughness anyway
orchid hemlock
Not if it wouldn't have made a difference
Is there a situation where having gunner resist doesn't help you when you are getting shot at? 🤔
brittle lava
Basically if you don't take health damage/get stunned from toughness breaking
broken spade
Is there a situation where having gunner resist doesn't help you when you are ge...
the situation where it didn't shoot enough to hurt you
brittle lava
If neither of those things happened, it didn't matter because there was no consequence to getting shot
broken spade
like you gotta realize none of these matter unless it saved you from death
as death is the only thing it's meant to prevent
If you did not reach a point where you would've died without it, it accomplished nothing
orchid hemlock
the situation where it didn't shoot enough to hurt you
If I take less toughness damage, even if I take no HP damage, that's still better than taking more toughness damage 💀
Yall are rly coping, like that doesn't make any sense at all
broken spade
If hp doesn't save you from dying, what is hp doing?
do you have some secret buff you gain when you have more hp?
orchid hemlock
I already explained the 200 HP breakpoint, yes it does actually keep you from going down
narrow frost
If havoc take CDR if not then dont
orchid hemlock
Why is that relevant?
broken spade
I already explained the 200 HP breakpoint, yes it does actually keep you from go...
but did it actually?
Like i know the breakpoint
but how often does this happen?
orchid hemlock
but did it actually?
Yes
broken spade
How often are you surviving with a low amount of hp?
orchid hemlock
but how often does this happen?
Even outside the poxburster and sniper breakpoints, HP still have value at all times form chip damage
broken spade
also you could've just shouted to tank those bursters
orchid hemlock
It's literally what prevents you from going down
broken spade
gold toughness blocks bursters anyways
orchid hemlock
It has 100% value
brittle lava
Even outside the poxburster and sniper breakpoints, HP still have value at all t...
Not if you didn't go down
broken spade
and snipers actually
brittle lava
Or if you went down from damage that would down you from below your base with the curios anyway
orchid hemlock
Not if you didn't go down
Not if you hit the 3.6 second window 💀
hollow bane
And can save your teammates aswell as yourself from the bursters and snipers
brittle lava
Not if you hit the 3.6 second window 💀
That's what I'm arguing! It's the same logic
It's all conditional
And kind of marginal
orchid hemlock
That's what I'm arguing! It's the same logic
No it's not
Just because you say it does doesn't make it true
brittle lava
You just presented the same argument like it was a gotcha though
orchid hemlock
The comparison doesn't even make sense
broken spade
If you didn't go down to 22.5 hp, not having that 22.5 hp doesn't actually make a difference. You're alive either way
orchid hemlock
If you didn't go down to 22.5 hp, not having that 22.5 hp doesn't actually make ...
Why are we still talking about 22.5 HP?
broken spade
because that's how much 3x 5% gives you
orchid hemlock
I have said multiple times the breakpoint is 200 hp
orchid hemlock
When did I ever say I would only take 3 HP perks?
Actually I would rather take main stats
broken spade
okay but if you didn't live with just that much hp, then it didnt do anything
orchid hemlock
Because HP has more value as a main stat than as a perk
broken spade
If you didn't live with 7.5 remaining, you can remove 1 hp perk
if you didn't live with 15 remaining, you can remove 2
they are genuinely doing nothing except for the cases where you live with that hp
that's how conditional it is
orchid hemlock
You asked me: "what would I use instead of CDR" I said HP because HP I see is more valuable
broken spade
this is super conditional, rarer than i think cdr usage is by far
orchid hemlock
this is super conditional, rarer than i think cdr usage is by far
Nope I already explained why, I won't do it again please refer back to the top
I don't understand where this idea that HP is "conditional", it is a stat that is applied 100% of the run
broken spade
Because it doesn't do anything until it saved you from death
orchid hemlock
The CDR is only 3.6 second window
broken spade
life is a condition
hollow bane
If you lose 22.5 hp to chip or corruption then rip
orchid hemlock
life is a condition
HP is applicable 100% of the time, CDR isn't
What part of this don't you get?
If I have 200 HP, I have 200 HP the entire game
broken spade
what does that hp do for you if it's not saving you from death?
orchid hemlock
If I have 3.6 seconds less of CDR
that value disappears the momment that window is gone
broken spade
If i have 200 or 1000 hp, it doesn't matter if i only take 100 damage in that entire run
i actually have to take 200 damage for it to matter
it doesn't matter until you die
orchid hemlock
If i have 200 or 1000 hp, it doesn't matter if i only take 100 damage in that en...
OK? But at least that 200 HP the entire run
Again why is this relevant to the condition of CDR?
broken spade
I'm saying hp is a conditional benefit
because sometimes it won't save you
orchid hemlock
I won't repeat myself again, like I'm actually not
broken spade
If you have more hp but a mauler oneshots you, did it do anything?
orchid hemlock
I'm saying hp is a conditional benefit
because sometimes it won't save you
You're not listening
old quail
the phsyical number is different for an entire run but that doesn't mean the impact of the curio slot taken is
broken spade
if you have more hp but you didn't take that much damage, did it do anything?
old quail
if you have more hp but you didn't take that much damage, did it do anything?
if you're breaking it down in practical terms it's "did you need that hp in between heals/restores/etc"
orchid hemlock
if you have more hp but you didn't take that much damage, did it do anything?
The worst case scenerio is still padded in case it does happen
This isn't the case for the 3.6 CDR, unless you are lucky enough to have that situation overlap with the window
This is what I mean by 100% uptime
old quail
you can take a comically large amount of damage and still not technically get value out of x amount of hp if you were eating medstations or packs
broken spade
worst case scenario is actually you getting netted and dying anyways regardless of hp
or getting maulered
old quail
The worst case scenerio is still padded in case it does happen
This isn't the c...
3.6 seconds also isn't a fair window - there's a lot of times where you're in a situation where you have a lot of pressure on you and your ult is down
and you're going to be waiting for it to be back up regardless
but with cdr perks it comes back faster
broken spade
and this 3.6 seconds is a window where you could save anyone, not just yourself
old quail
this is a very narrow view of what the stat is actually doing in a real game
orchid hemlock
but with cdr perks it comes back faster
The point isn't that it can be useful but it is if it will be useful at all time
That 3.6 second window is too narrow for me sorry 🤷🏻
old quail
health also isn't
hollow ibex
3.6 seconds also isn't a fair window - there's a lot of times where you're in a ...
if you're under pressure, there's likely to be specialists. if there are specialists, you get insane cdr from talent tree
broken spade
a lot happens in 3.6 seconds
orchid hemlock
this is a very *narrow* view of what the stat is actually doing in a real game
I'll take your opinion to heart 👍🏻
broken spade
I don't even think it makes sense to consider that a small amount of time in this game
orchid hemlock
I don't even think it makes sense to consider that a small amount of time in thi...
3.6 seconds is not important on shout, I'm sorry
old quail
if you're under pressure, there's likely to be specialists. if there are special...
these cooldown buffs are essentially multiplicative, having both isn't really running into diminishing returns issues
orchid hemlock
these cooldown buffs are essentially multiplicative, having both isn't really ru...
No, unless you use it off cooldown
Which you shouldn't
hollow ibex
these cooldown buffs are essentially multiplicative, having both isn't really ru...
there is a diminishing returns issue, because there's only so many times if you need an ult
hollow bane
So you've never been hit by a poxburster or not been able to save your teammates because you have 3 seconds or less left on cooldown?
orchid hemlock
But hey apperently it's "meta"
hollow ibex
and there's also massive opportunity cost
hollow ibex
you're spending 1/3rd of your curio slots on this
old quail
in havoc the applicable situation for a shout is almost always
orchid hemlock
in havoc the applicable situation for a shout is almost always
Actually using shout off cooldown can cause overlapping issues with other source sof golden toughness
old quail
you're spending 1/3rd of your curio slots on this
none of these slots are supremely valuable, or there isn't enough competition for all 3 for this point to really matter
orchid hemlock
It s'more beneficial to time the buffs to sync with one another coming off cooldown of the next ability
hollow ibex
nah curio slots are pretty important, and i'd rather not spend 3 of them on a mediocre flat reduction
orchid hemlock
If you all shout at the same time, sure you have a massive overcapped but in 5 second yall will have nothing ☠️
hollow ibex
when vet has a mandatory talent that gives insane stacking cdr
orchid hemlock
Shout is also more beneficial to use in situations where you are loosing toughness than preventing
old quail
Actually using shout off cooldown can cause overlapping issues with other source...
this is getting into too niche a scenario i think, it's going to depend on the nature of your party and how much is communicated
hollow ibex
if you're in havoc, you're prob in a coordinated party, taking turns ulting
so cdr is even less of an issue there
old quail
no, not really - overshield as a prevention tool is way better if you're stuck in a melee swarm
hollow ibex
on top of natural cdr
orchid hemlock
this is getting into too niche a scenario i think, it's going to depend on the n...
No it's not, there is no situation (expect like 20 ragers spawning) where you all want to shout at the same time 💀
bitter turtle
no but if you never lived on 22.5 hp, not taking it never killed you
tlo be fair
you could, in some cases
old quail
"all" is assuming a quantity of vets >1 which isn't always the case
broken spade
You shout like 60 times a mission. Surely one of them you wish were earlier
bitter turtle
consider that someone might have made a play that they would have conisidered too risky if they had less hp
old quail
and i think the point of like, a bp chorus build literally is to be chorusing all the time because every person i've seen complain about "chorus duty" acts like that's all they're doing (i simply play judgement)
orchid hemlock
You shout like 60 times a mission. Surely one of them you wish were earlier
Nope not really
Again this is anecdotal
bitter turtle
i agree cdr is the best perk to have on though
partially because im running infil and the cd is even longer than shout but yeah
the same applies, really, as i mentioned on HP
even if you don't use it LTIERALLY ON COOLDOWN
having it available allows you to take risks you normally wouldn't have taken
hollow ibex
i think there's more of an argument if you're taking double charge infil
bitter turtle
yes its best on double charge infil
hollow bane
Bro would choose sniper resist over cdr💀💀
hollow ibex
meh
bitter turtle
if i didnt have stealth in my back pocket
broken spade
I actually took off sniper res for havoc. Used to run it for the breakpoint too
orchid hemlock
Bro would choose sniper resist over cdr💀💀
If you have 200 HP and sniper resist you can survive 3 sniper shots instead of 2
hollow ibex
havoc is all sorts of weird
bitter turtle
sniper res is pointless btw
orchid hemlock
So yeah that's an important breakpoint
bitter turtle
why would you take the resistance vs the most harmless ranged enemy in havoc 
broken spade
So many bubbles that a sniper hitting you is an actual miracle
old quail
they should add a curio stat that reduces your hitbox sixe by 30% for cspawn grabs
bitter turtle
at least u can dodge snipers
and given that gunners now have an effective range of one gorillion with pinpoint accuracy
broken spade
I don't think i've been hit by a single sniper on my way to 40
orchid hemlock
sniper res is pointless btw
@tall torrent someone needs to be educated again smh my head
bitter turtle
educated about what
broken spade
People are also way better and picking out specials in havoc
broken spade
so like it's just insanely unlikely for a sniper to do its thing
bitter turtle
i mean literally
orchid hemlock
that's a fact
🛌🏻
bitter turtle
i would prioritize
trash mob shooters
over a sniper in havoc 40
im not even exaggerating
broken spade
honestly same
broken spade
the shooters are a bigger threat to the bubble as well
orchid hemlock
There are purge maps BTW
But again sniper resist is for worst case scenario for me
Again snipers ignore toughness which is why the resistence is valuable
bitter turtle
i would unironically take shooter res if it was a perk
broken spade
between gold toughness, bubbles, and everyone constantly focused on killing specials, getting actually damaged by a sniper just doesn't happen
you'd be extremely unlucky
bitter turtle
There are purge maps BTW
But again sniper resist is for worst case scenario for...
yes\
and ive done purge maps
they're still harmless
compared to shooters
orchid hemlock
I would also take poxburster resist
brittle lava
Snipers don't ignore toughness, if you have enough from things like bonus toughness you'll tank it
bitter turtle
im genuinely not even exaggerating
old quail
the snipers are the least threatening part of playing a vent purge map
orchid hemlock
Snipers don't ignore toughness, if you have enough from things like bonus toughn...
Sigh
old quail
it is the eye strain that does u in
broken spade
I would also take poxburster resist
pus hardened poxbursters tanking a billion shots while fumbling around the team
bitter turtle
its the one shooter that you forgot about hiding in the back in the fog
broken spade
actually a menace
bitter turtle
that is the one that does you in
orchid hemlock
"guys just play better"
Literally after a 30 minute discussion coping for CDR
It actually blows my mind
broken spade
i am
brittle lava
What? I'm saying if you get hit, you can tank it
bitter turtle
trash mob shooters are unironically more threatening
brittle lava
That's not playing better, I get hit by snipers
bitter turtle
you can eat a sniper shot to the face and not die
like 2 scab stalkers will literally down you
with a full salvo
and thats ignoring the part that the sniper is easier to dodge too
and announces his presence
with a giant fucking laser
and sound effect
broken spade
you survive longer against a sniper than a shooter if you're using voice of command
unironically
cause the sniper has to shoot twice to kill you
orchid hemlock
What? I'm saying if you get hit, you can tank it
Nothing in the game except HP and sniper resist protects you from snipers
So it always will have some value
bitter turtle
nothing in the game except hp also protects you against a poxwalker
if they added poxwalker resist would you take it too
brittle lava
Nothing in the game except HP and sniper resist protects you from snipers
So it...
Bonus toughness, toughness resist, both these things protect you as well
orchid hemlock
nothing in the game except hp also protects you against a poxwalker
That's why I take HP 
orchid hemlock
Bonus toughness, toughness resist, both these things protect you as well
No you are actually incorrect
orchid hemlock
you wouldnt take poxwalker dmg resist would you
Yes I would 💀
But there is no poxwalkers perk 😔
brittle lava
I'm happy to be wrong, but I'd need to see something to the contrary since I've tanked sniper shots with bonus toughness
bitter turtle
im saying poxWALKER
brittle lava
And nothing else
orchid hemlock
over cdr or stam?
Not Stam but yes CDR absolutely
brittle lava
Without losing health, I mean
orchid hemlock
I'm happy to be wrong, but I'd need to see something to the contrary since I've ...
Golden toughness protects you from chipping hp
If you have 1 overcapped toughness, you will not loose any HP from a sniper
Even if you have 2 toughness
💀
brittle lava
Yes!
orchid hemlock
10/10 design Fatshark
brittle lava
I don't see where we disagree but I'm glad that's sorted then
broken spade
so many people running gold toughness and bubbles in havoc that a sniper actually hurting you requires the stars to align
orchid hemlock
I don't see where we disagree but I'm glad that's sorted then
What is sorted?
brittle lava
You said the only things that protect from snipers is sniper resist and health
orchid hemlock
You said the only things that protect from snipers is sniper resist and health
Yeah that's true
brittle lava
I said bonus toughness and toughness resistance in general help
orchid hemlock
Golden toughness is not a stat you can put on your curios
bitter turtle
like i said im not joking that i prioritize almost everything over sniper
brittle lava
And you said you disagreed, so I was confused
bitter turtle
they are actually the weakest special
brittle lava
The discussion is around the value of spamming shout
Spamming shout means more golden toughness, so you can tank things like sniper
orchid hemlock
like i said im not joking that i prioritize almost everything over sniper
Yes yes, you are good at the game just play better yadda yadda
bitter turtle
why do you keep bringing up being good at the game
at no point did i said ur bad
or play better
im talking about the reality of havoc 40 lol
orchid hemlock
Fatshark pls give me poxburster perk and my life is yours
bitter turtle
ive been downed by shooters because im a shitter
broken spade
You could be really bad and your team would probably save you from snipers by accident
orchid hemlock
Saying sniper resist is the worst resist is a nuclear take I'm sorry
hollow bane
ive been downed by shooters because im a shitter
Nah they're just using 50.cal bullets
iron marten
I've been downed by shotgunners from lights out....
orchid hemlock
have you done havoc 40
Yes
brittle lava
Yup! I don't think I've been hit by a sniper in havoc 40 yet, but that has more to do with how much everyone covers each other in havoc 40 through ability spam and slow advancement
old quail
so many people running gold toughness and bubbles in havoc that a sniper actuall...
i mean it just has no specific scenarios you can account for commonly, it'll kill you in all the scenarios where any "press button or die" enemy will
bitter turtle
i have no idea how you would consider a sniper more threatening than any other gun wielding enemy then lol
orchid hemlock
Lmao we doing the Havoc interview to measure our opinions now? 
bitter turtle
why are you so defensive about your skill
jfc
its impossible to have a conversation when you're trying to wipe your own ass about some complex about being bad the entire time
broken spade
This isn't even a matter of skill. People will just save you from snipers anyways
orchid hemlock
why are you so defensive about your skill
When did I sya anything about my skill? You keep saying that snipers are not a problem to you 💀
You literally asked me for my Havoc rank
bitter turtle
i did not even say that lol
broken spade
It's not a problem because it just isn't
bitter turtle
i said
snipers are significantly less of a problem
than even trash mob shooters
who knows, maybe both give me problems
but snipers give less of a problem
bitter turtle
alr if this is going to turn into "no u" ill just go back to drawing lmao
orchid hemlock
I never questioned your skill in the game
hollow bane
When did I sya anything about my skill? You keep saying that snipers are not a p...
If you've done havok 40 how can you struggle dodging snipers?
somber axle
weird question but like is it even worth building for the sniper breakpoint in high rank havoc given the HP reduction modifier because you're definitely not hitting the HP needed for 1 sniper resist perk on 2 HP curios and no HP perks
orchid hemlock
And you have the audacity to say I am skill measuring
somber axle
you'd have to do something pretty goofy like 3 HP curios right
and at that point LMFAO no
broken spade
weird question but like is it even worth building for the sniper breakpoint in h...
I wouldn't bother in havoc
bitter turtle
i asked bc i was wondering if you just havent seen how dangerous shooters are is all
nothing to do with skill
just saying to explain why i asked lol
broken spade
I'm fine with people taking sniper res in aurics. I have it in some of my auric builds
somber axle
sniper res in aurics is fine because you can realistically hit HP breakpoint on 1 HP curio if you wanna be silly
brittle lava
weird question but like is it even worth building for the sniper breakpoint in h...
I've heard people discuss the merits of going hp instead of toughness, since most of your buffer window is from bonus toughness anyway, which isnt impacted by toughness curios
But I'm not sure I put toooo much stock in that. I can see the logic, though
orchid hemlock
i asked bc i was wondering if you just havent seen how dangerous shooters are is...
I am very aware how dangerous shooters are in Havoc, but I don't see why that is relevant to saying sniper resist for the entire game is bad
broken spade
I don't think sniper res for the entire game is bad
i think it's bad in specifically havoc
somber axle
I've heard people discuss the merits of going hp instead of toughness, since mos...
I mean specifically for being able to tank sniper shots like you're in an auric because the breakpoint is very, very specific and you need >200 HP with 1 sniper resist perk or you eat dirt
broken spade
snipers are such a small percentage of the things that will threaten you in havoc
far less than a single shooter
bitter turtle
i literally only came in to defend u saying hp is not that bad lmao
broken spade
and havoc demands a level of team coordination that just shits on snipers
somber axle
in aurics you can realistically meet >200 HP on 1 HP curio, 3 HP perks and 1 of the HP talents (and if you're going Krak it's very reachable)
broken spade
people are bubbling them
bitter turtle
because i disagreed with json saying the only value in hp is if you survive with <20hp
brittle lava
I mean specifically for being able to tank sniper shots like you're in an auric ...
Yeah specifically for snipers I wouldn't build for haha, there's much scarier things in Havoc
somber axle
but like
orchid hemlock
ive said havoc repeatedly too lol
You didn't say Havoc specifically when mentioning snipers for the first time, you kept saying that it's the least relevant specialist vets need to worry about even in purge maps
bitter turtle
there are purge maps in havoc too you know
somber axle
orchid hemlock
there are purge maps in havoc too you know
Well there u go, see sniper resist is useful in Havoc 
somber axle
when you look at this it begins to feel like overinvesting in HP for snipers feels silly
somber axle
it'll help for other things for sure
orchid hemlock
https://discord.com/channels/727074276724965407/1046912126746374274/131740622377...
Long before that
broken spade
You didn't say Havoc specifically when mentioning snipers for the first time, yo...
he added the reason to his message literally immediately after bringing it up. it wasn't that confusing what he meant.
somber axle
if you're not in havoc feel free to build HP because >200 HP and 1 sniper res perk is gonna help a bunch vs snipers and poxbursters in aurics, maels and standard matches
bitter turtle
"oh i meant normal aurics"
orchid hemlock
he added the reason to his message literally immediately after bringing it up. i...
I don't see Havoc anywhere in this image
bitter turtle
I don't see Havoc anywhere in this image
my guy
orchid hemlock
🚶🏻♂️
broken spade
bitter turtle
holy shit
somber axle
if you're not reaching the sniper breakpoint for HP idk why it's important
for this specific context
bitter turtle
broken spade
should i add some red arrows and circles?
bitter turtle
lappland too distracting
iron marten
broken spade
orchid hemlock
Oh there it is, my phone didn't stretch the image
hollow bane
You're trolling
orchid hemlock
You're trolling
Actually no I'm not
If you actually believe that, take it to the mods 🤷🏻
Lets see how far that will take you
bitter turtle
nobody talked about calling mods
polar quiver
what weapons do you guys recommend for on overwatch penance (taking no melee damage)
bitter turtle
what weapons do you guys recommend for on overwatch penance (taking no melee dam...
laspistol+knife
high mobility is good
you really just wanna stay away from melee enemies
its just like, heresy or malice right? I forget
polar quiver
malice+
orchid hemlock
nobody talked about calling mods
No I'm just saying that they want to make a bold claim like that, then put some bite into it.
bitter turtle
so you can just hose everything down with your gun
narrow frost
Malice
broken spade
knife + anything really
bitter turtle
i would also take infil + l ow profile
narrow frost
And it's only hp damage taken in melee
polar quiver
so just knife is the important thing?
bitter turtle
the moment somethign taps u
narrow frost
Don't forget
bitter turtle
just hit infil
personally i actually think a high mobility gun is the important thing
polar quiver
And it's only hp damage taken in melee
doesnt melee always split between tough and hp?
bitter turtle
just cause you can hold backwards and shoot
bitter turtle
doesnt melee always split between tough and hp?
nop
not if you are at 100% toughness
the dmg that leaks through is a % based on the % of your toughness
broken spade
just remember blocking and pushing is 360 degress
bitter turtle
so if you are at 100% toughness it blocks 100% of it
you'll always have one safety net
so just smack infiltrate
the moment u take a hit
polar quiver
ive been doing the other penances with the op dueling sword plasma gun combo but this is giving me some trouble
bitter turtle
easy 1st try
narrow frost
If you have 90% toughness remaining then 10% of the damage will go to your hp
iron marten
Not unless you played that one hotfix shortly after release where having more than 100 toughness destroys you 
bitter turtle
yea just do laspistol and knife/ds4
broken spade
dueling sword should do fine too
bitter turtle
i really do think a high mobility hipfire gun is best
broken spade
Not unless you played that one hotfix shortly after release where having more th...
tfw the curios nerf you
bitter turtle
ammo should not be a concern
so just hose everything that comes at u down
while backpedalling
polar quiver
laspistol is king alright thanks
iron marten
tfw the curios nerf you
Those were some funny times, especially when vet had 200 toughness
broken spade
just remember to block when you think there's anything about to melee you
360 degree block is so silly
broken spade
well, won't save you from a mauler overhead
polar quiver
360 degree block is so silly
hasnt it been like that since vermintide 1?
polar quiver
but you know the backstab noise right?
the whoosh yh
bitter turtle
i know a lot of, especially new players, dont realize that "SWOOSH' noise means a melee attack is ocming from behind
yea
bitter turtle
i think its for attacks that arent in your fov
broken spade
hasnt it been like that since vermintide 1?
doesn't vermintide 2 have block angle as an actual stat?
bitter turtle
but i could be wrong idk
broken spade
didn't play much vermintide so idk exactly how it worked
polar quiver
doesn't vermintide 2 have block angle as an actual stat?
that just makes it more effective blocks
but block was 360
broken spade
oh
polar quiver
u just had ur angle that made blocking consume less shields
somber axle
oh also! remember that you can underhand throw shredder frag grenades without breaking Infiltrate stealth
polar quiver
but the stat was more about the push angle cuz knocking down stuff BEHIND you was silly
somber axle
so if you end up surrounded and can't move while invis just drop a nade to push them off or drop 2 to clear the room
polar quiver
oh damn
somber axle
overhand throws still break stealth though so be careful
polar quiver
does the shredder frag also count for long bomb btw
or is it one of those weird ones where u need to nerf urself heavy by taking no grenade
dry cloak
because is was good then bad and now it is good again
somber axle
they got buffed with the Secrets of the Machine God update
dry cloak
yep
dry cloak
and its good alternative to autoguns on most builds
somber axle
maybe played with a variant and/or build you hadn't tried before? idk
they haven't changed since SotMG
aside from the silly renaming thing that happened
bitter turtle
maybe they're using it in havoc
steep grail
i just took my columnus build and took off onslaught for shock trooper
its like the same thing
steep grail
maybe they're using it in havoc
3 veg rn
bitter turtle
the only thing that changed in this patch is havoc turning it into a meta gun
somber axle
yeah it's really fun in Havoc
rip to the XIV tho
cleave useless so it's just a thirstier Recon
dry cloak
everyne was using recons las's after sotmg
bitter turtle
while i thought it was still cleaving lmao
somber axle
nice
bitter turtle
now im using 6 though
steep grail
gunkers have a new toy they're fucking with every time i see one
i saw one with the autopistol today
fucker still outdamaged everyone
somber axle
kinda nice that all three variants have their niches without any one being like obviously better than the others
bitter turtle
autopistol 
dry cloak
kinda nice that all three variants have their niches without any one being like ...
unlike iags
somber axle
yeah LOL
dry cloak
brautos have 2 choices, graia or agrip
steep grail
i love the columnus but i cant use it for more than 5 games in a row
dry cloak
the middle one is worse
somber axle
the CIAG/VIAG got a tiny nerf tap to crit strings a while back iirc but then idk if that really changed much on how it performs vs the other IAGs
bitter turtle
i used graia iag
steep grail
to be fair
dry cloak
i used graia iag <:LappKek:637389377026392064>
now its columnus 8
dry cloak
theyre are all good and viable
dry cloak
theres just a clear winner of the three
yes
dry cloak
the CIAG/VIAG got a tiny nerf tap to crit strings a while back iirc but then idk...
not much
dry cloak
iag mk5 is just better
i personally prefer the heavy one and middle one
but for weapon spec vraks mk5 is just better choice
steep grail
my eyes were opened to how good marksman focus is with the recons
steep grail
i already knew its a good keystone
dry cloak
you have unlocked a really deadly lightshow build
also
Scriers gaze and new greatsword are really good
somber axle
it's trivial to maintain 10+ stacks with the Recons LOL
and very fun stacking both Chink in their Armour 10% rending with Rending Strikes 10% rending
steep grail
Scriers gaze and new greatsword are really good
scrier's gaze makes everything that isn't a staff very good
somber axle
Recon go brrrrr
dry cloak
scrier's gaze makes everything that isn't a staff very good
scrierz gaze prefers weapons with high firerate
so graia brauto for example or autopistol
bitter turtle
my eyes were opened to how good marksman focus is with the recons
its alright
stacking it
is trivial
but sadly recon finesse means you dont get quite as huge of a benefit
iirc
keeping up max stacks is roughly the same as max stacks focus target
which is pretty good, considering you wont usually have max stacks focus
but yeah
steep grail
i just kinda slapped recon into my columnus build which has marksmans focus
and its performing very well
dry cloak
have you tried weapon specialist build?
dry cloak
fair
dry cloak
i absolutely adore it
dry cloak
but i recognize it's good with certain melees
its good with all melees
dry cloak
psword chain sword
steep grail
its
somber axle
tac axe speed is addicting with trench fighter drill and weapon specialist both stacking more melee attack speed
steep grail
good
somber axle
so FAST
steep grail
i dont think its the best keystone for plasgun
dry cloak
because it isnt
steep grail
but it flows with the hybrid playstyle
somber axle
doesn't it need FT/RF to help hit certain breakpoints
dry cloak
its good with shotties and fast handling weapons