veteran-class

[frank ether]

I'm not running exe with this games hitreg lol

[bitter turtle]

#veteran-class message

[frank ether]

funny thing is the stun is enough time for a swap

[bitter turtle]

witness my black magic 👻

[full nacelle]

wow wait what? how? LMAO

[bitter turtle]

here

let me do it in slow mo to show you

[sinful swallow]

So that's cool

[bitter turtle]

tbh that video is pretty bad so i might record something else to show ppl

cause like

im p sure you have no idea what i just did lol

[sinful swallow]

But exe stance is for boss mulching I use all the stats foo

Reload cancel with swap weapon swap back sprint cancel in some order of that?

[somber axle]

yeah you want something set up for Crusher killing for sure
I personally love knife for crusher killing but it wants desperado talent + uncanny blessing to do it well and if you're not taking that talent and/or don't have uncanny blessing then the knife is less effective
Power Swords are always a strong weapon for anti-horde that can kill Crushers VERY effectively too even if I personally don't like using them
Power Sword VI with Power Cycler IV is able to 1HKO Crushers with a push attack to the face but it also requires a certain talent set up to hit the 1 shot breakpoint so otherwise you'll just do charge blade -> push attack -> 2 light swings and the Crusher dies fast
Folding Shovels can be built to 1HKO Crushers too through Thrust and Uncanny
Chainaxe can kill Crushers effectively but they're very slow melee weapons so most don't like them without trench fighter which is deep into the right tree and if your build isn't in that part of the talent tree to begin with, you're not getting Desperado for things like Knife then you're definitely not getting Trench Fighter to make Chainaxe feel better for general use
I've heard others say Rashad II Combat Axe is a very good all around weapon and it seems to imply it can kill Crushers fine too but idk for sure because I haven't played with a good rolled Rashad on Vet yet to verify that info yet

all that to say
Power Sword if you've got Power Cycler IV
Knife if you've got Uncanny
Folding Shovel with Thrust + Uncanny
Chainaxe if you want to feel like an Ogryn

[bitter turtle]

yep

done slower vs no tech

[somber axle]

someone like numbers cat could explain the knife kill better but combat knife is surprisingly effective for killing Crushers

with a 1 sec TTK

[bitter turtle]

you basically reload to cancel swap animation, then sprint to cancel reload

i do laspistol/knife but i strongly sugggest the autoclick mod if you try it

at least if you run wep specialist like i do

like

i didnt use autoclick mod for the longest time

until i started playing this build

[sinful swallow]

He was running with MF

[bitter turtle]

finger started hurting

[somber axle]

here's an example of Power Sword 1HKO

[bitter turtle]

o with MF

[full nacelle]

Wow, thank you so much for the breakdown! Sounds like I'll probably stick with the trusty convertible shovel for now. I'll start working towards those blessings!

[somber axle]

Welcomes!

[bitter turtle]

slight caveat

make sure the shovel has carapace

[somber axle]

I'm trying to find the Knife video numbers cat did

it's really funny for the TTK

[bitter turtle]

uncanny isnt as necessary as carapace is for the 1tap

though you should prob still have uncanny just because its uncanny

[full nacelle]

Sorry, I still don't get it. What are you cancelling the animation with? lol

[bitter turtle]

so when you swap

cancel the swapping animation with reload

then when you start reloading

cancel it with sprint

[full nacelle]

oh shit... I gotta upgrade my bolter game

[somber axle]

FOUND IT

[bitter turtle]

the 1sec crusher ttk isnt something particularly special

all properly built knives at max uncanny should be able to do it

doesnt even really matter what the 2nd blessing is

the more "wild" one is the 2shot but i dont think anything except precog does it

flesh tearer technically does it but through bleed

[somber axle]

also funny side note

I've discovered that with my better Recon Mk VId that I am no longer killing in 10-15 ammo spent

it's more like 8-11 shots

[bitter turtle]

did you finally get one with higher than 60 dmg or something

[somber axle]

https://gyazo.com/07ec18ea5c518b5b75483ce62279df7e

this one has lower ammo stat but higher damage stat and it's not much but it does change things just enough to save a few more ammo

[bitter turtle]

that's why I told you to get a high dmg one before 😔

esp since i have no idea why they made half the stats on recon meaningless

stability and collateral are just ???

[somber axle]

I've got a perfect 80% damage stat Recon Mk VId I should mess around with instead

[bitter turtle]

gun has like no recoil

or stagger

[somber axle]

I managed to get it as low as 7 ammo spent for a Crusher kill but it's way more likely to spend 8-10 with how the crits roll out generally

11 on a bad crit roll

Crusher kill lab is active tonight

[oblique totem]

Speaking of which. I gotta prove that I one hit a crusher like I said I did

[somber axle]

with a Chainsword?

[oblique totem]

Yeh

[somber axle]

I proved it's possible in the Psykanium

[oblique totem]

Oh

[somber axle]

https://gyazo.com/54228556bc2480d99e34e7afd2bdf21b

not only is it possible but it's also not particularly hard to do either

...if it embeds the link properly LMFAO

if it doesn't then just follow this

[oblique totem]

Oh! That's pretty close to how I did it.

[bitter turtle]

you run bloodthirsty carapace on your chs?

[somber axle]

I only used Bloodthirsty to guarantee a crit for testing purposes

but tbh I ended up discovering that I love Bloodthirsty for this exact reason

[oblique totem]

I had the focus target.

[somber axle]

back to back Crusher chewing sessions

[oblique totem]

Bloodthirsty and flak armor

[somber axle]

without Focus Target my Chainsword could still 1HKO on a crit rev'd heavy into the Crusher head using just Desperado, Precision Strikes, Superiority Complex and Bring It Down

using Bloodthirsty meant it would always without fail 1HKO

no reliance on Marksman, For the Emperor, Close Quarters Killzone, Infiltrate 30% damage buff on stealth break, Agile Engagement, Fire Team or anything else

and being able to do it without needing Focus Target felt really good

[oblique totem]

I will soon be online and share what I've cobbled together.

Is it efficient? Probably not

[somber axle]

Psykanium testing is pretty fun

[somber axle]

I mean it's a chainsword so it'll still be fine on horde clear

[oblique totem]

Yeh rev rev brrrrrr

[somber axle]

not as good as a chainsword with the standard set up of Rampage + Sweeping Strikes (IV), Rampage + Wrath (XIIIg), or Rampage + Shred (Either)

but Bloodletter and Bloodthirsty are fun blessings

I'd probably want Bloodthirsty and Shred tbh

speed and crit fiend

https://tenor.com/view/lulu-cat-fast-gif-19144023

[oblique totem]

I just want to melt monstrosities and crushers

But also rip and tear into horads

hoards

[somber axle]

Chainsword gets to silly swing speed with Trench Fighter Drill +10% melee attack speed + Weapon Specialist keystone Melee Specialist buff giving more melee weapon attack speed +15%

love swinging like a berserker

https://tenor.com/view/borderlands-borderlands2-borderlands3-krieg-krieg-borderlands-gif-26358811

[oblique totem]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-anger-psycho-krieg-red-gif-24975012

[somber axle]

if only I could make an angry shirtless tattooed Zealot

😔

just bring Krieg into Darktide he'd fit in fine

[bitter turtle]

do you have 10% melee or smthing

or elite+carapace

[oblique totem]

My zealot is somehow not a bloodthirsty berserker pretending to just be very enthusiastic and it saddens me

[bitter turtle]

this is 80 everything with carapace

not sure if im missing something 🤔

[somber axle]

doesn't Zealot have that funny line of skulls for the golden throne

literally right on the edge of Khorne berserker talk afaik

[oblique totem]

He does and I don't know which one says it

[somber axle]

whoops wrong thing

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046912126746374274/1241102123395977226/image.png?ex=664af42c&is=6649a2ac&hm=aedecf5f2963bae727d7dd2b4abfb6534322e7a05e420c03cfbc9c8fa2f939c2&

[bitter turtle]

o

10% melee

[somber axle]

for some reason it keeps insta deleting my weapon

[bitter turtle]

makes more sense then

[oblique totem]

chop chop

[bitter turtle]

actually no im still short even with 10% melee

[somber axle]

My Zealot screams it but idk what voice she has

she screams about blood and skulls

and gets criticized by Psykers for it sometimes

[oblique totem]

Try for agile engagement.

[bitter turtle]

wel

l

i was doing with the buffs mentioned

[oblique totem]

Shoot other enemy, melee crusher?

[somber axle]

I didn't need agile engagement buff active to do it

[somber axle]

oh

[oblique totem]

I am half certain you exist in a different realm running parallel to ours.

[somber axle]

no Marksman

wait

[bitter turtle]

oh wait

i see the problem

[somber axle]

I didn't have Marksman active

[bitter turtle]

u have rending strikes

[somber axle]

oh yeah that's the tiny bit that pushed it over the edge

[somber axle]

it's called the Digital Circus!

[oblique totem]

call it whatever you like.

In an hour or so I shall be able to play the game again and then I will figure out what I have done

[somber axle]

https://tenor.com/view/tadc-the-amazing-digital-circus-pomni-plush-plushie-gif-12609321247387902402

[somber axle]

weirdly enough I was craving Darktide all day while at work and then as soon as I get home I go right into D&D with no time for anything else and now I'm just chilling

no need for Darktide anymore

just relaxing vibes

maybe tomorrow

[oblique totem]

Well there's your first problem.
You can't play Darktide while also being content.

[somber axle]

the secret to enjoying Darktide is to be unhappy confirmed

[oblique totem]

I've found anger to be the best, but emotional turmoil of any description will work.

[wraith flare]

I was born unhappy, it runs in our blood

[oblique totem]

This one gets it.

[hollow warren]

which one is arguably better?
got the first one from Sour Milk and adjusted it a bit

not a fan of the 66% thermal resistance. can only shoot 7 times before overheat

old one can go 8 shots until 100%

[pearl granite]

anyone have weird problem with melk? I can click on stuff, but the replace task button in weekly contract doesn't work. have to restart the game to fix it
and when that happen, the change operative button doesn't work as well

buying stuff from him or the peddler is fine, tho

[slender turtle]

I was thinking for what they can do to make Marksmen focus more appealing to use. Why dont they redo camoflage to be threat reduction at certain stages in your stacks, and then chink in the armor can just be rending AND weakspot crit chance?

[shadow aurora]

Thats an interesting idea. Can be an actual sniper finally

[slender turtle]

The way you gain stacks is already interesting enough, i have no problem with it. The bonuses are ass on it it though

[shadow aurora]

I think the main reason why people dont choose left stone is because theyre scared of losing stacks

Same reason why even after rework you dont see many dd psykers

[slender turtle]

You gain stacks so fast though

Its probably more skill focused cause its relying on you hitting plenty of headshots cause of the brief window you have to be able to move around

If they increased it by another 3 or 5 seconds to be lenient and give it better keystone talents, id say it be great

[shadow aurora]

Whats the duration atm?

I forgor

[white minnow]

3 seconds on hitting a weakspot and 6 seconds on weakspot kill

i think it is PLENTY lenient right now

[trim hemlock]

Unfortunately no, albeit if you manage to reproduce it somehow, consider reporting it to the forums

[shadow aurora]

I mean yeah that seems pretty good

[trim hemlock]

I observed a crabwalking Vet today

They've said that it's the worst penance ever

[shadow aurora]

I feel like something that increases the time limit should be a sidegrade

[white minnow]

i dislike passive threat reduction, and crit chance doesn't deserve to be boosted

[shadow aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/kiryu-kazuma-yakuza6-yakuza-yakuza-opinion-gif-25359738

[white minnow]

kill

[shadow aurora]

:(

[white minnow]

i just think that camoflauge already exists for people who are worried about marksman's economy

and it's already so easy to rack up

[slender turtle]

Well if they didnt include melee kills as "Kills with marksmen focus" Then you'd might not see it at all

[old quail]

the dark arts is utilizing the end of smelter complex to complete the penance in 1 match

[slender turtle]

Power swording kneecaps

[white minnow]

and the bonus is fine for something that's down the sharpshooter branch
it might be finesse but you get a fat load of it
it's just a terribly basic keystone and we really should be leaning into the headshot aspect

rather than crit chance stuff

[trim hemlock]

I'd rather people do this than crabwalk through the entire mission and make their existence miserable

Also

nice Spectre pfp, I now know where that one is from

[slender turtle]

Did they ever fix 'Chink in the armor' as a talent? The last time i heard was it wasnt even working

[shadow aurora]

I never did touch marksmans for to long

[old quail]

hell yeah

[white minnow]

in that discussion, people also remarked that it was because of meatgrinder shenanigans that it wasn't working

[shadow aurora]

I feel like once they add a laslock ill use it

[white minnow]

it certainly works now

[slender turtle]

Hope so. But also they need to just change it cause its not hard to spec into having a perma 10% rending anyways

[white minnow]

well, there's a reason to take it for pathing reasons and that's good enough

[old quail]

that one is so oddly placed because it really should be a stam regen related node

[slender turtle]

[white minnow]

yeah they should just annihilate that node

[old quail]

why is the tree that has deadshot the one that doesn't have stamina regen from the keystone

[white minnow]

because of society

[trim hemlock]

Missed potential indeed

[shadow aurora]

Because fatshark slaps stuff together and prays it works

[old quail]

(deadshot should actually be a node at the top but thats opening a whole different can of worms related to exe stance)

[trim hemlock]

at least it has the small stamina regen delay node, though

[shadow aurora]

Like orks

[old quail]

the 0.5s stamina regen delay build is fun

[trim hemlock]

Also also, it's a node that competes with the only small 10% TDR node in the tree

[old quail]

i loved it with a variant of my exe stance bolter build but marksman really has 0 stamina sustain

[trim hemlock]

Albeit its value is somewhat nullified by Iron Will's existence

[old quail]

which makes focus target better for deadshotmaxing

[old quail]

the solution? bring back old unwavering focus

[trim hemlock]

Unironically in today's "meta", it wouldn't probably even be as broken as it was

Maybe with Plasma it would be stupid

[old quail]

i mean the entirety of ogryn flew under the radar for many months

with a comparable level of tdr

[white minnow]

so sad that ogryn has changed josho's brain in an even worse manner

[old quail]

and for a good long while people would tell you having enough toughness and dr to tank a sniper shot w/o losing health is a "squishy" ogryn build

[trim hemlock]

This is also applicable to me

but I'm recovering

(by playing Zealot more)

[old quail]

i picked up ogryn for penances and he has been put back on the shelf

[trim hemlock]

my Zealot is currently at a higher level than Psyker
oh how the tables have turned

[white minnow]

i believe you

[old quail]

my psyker is my lowest rated by a gigantic margin

the class has just never really vibed with me

[white minnow]

it just needs a god damn warp glock

a staff that is a proper analog to an infantry gun

[shadow aurora]

Give me a warframe amp for my psyker

[trim hemlock]

Glock Sienna in 40k

[old quail]

it is genuinely just a neglected class

[white minnow]

give psyker something that requires aim

in fact

just give psyker a weapon

we are starving out here

[odd sparrow]

you can already play psyker with a gun

[old quail]

vet/zealot/ogryn all got class exclusives in carnival pt 2

psyker

did not

[white minnow]

though guns won't benefit frrom warp damage buffs

and guns aren't warp

and are also subject to suppression

[old quail]

imagine psiguns with an alternative means of quelling

[odd sparrow]

yes it isnt perfect

[old quail]

u do an actual reload animation that is u shitting out warp juice

[white minnow]

hnnnnnnnnnng

[old quail]

and u have to do the whole reload or ur stuck with passive quelling

[trim hemlock]

Borderlands 3 level of reloads for Psyker please

[old quail]

psyker makes me so sad because peril just becomes a very basic muscle memory skill rather than something u have to really manage

the exclusive class mechanic makes up a very small amount of the actual gameplay loop

[trim hemlock]

Manual quelling's fluency should be gutted IMO

Beta peril mechanics were perfect

[shadow aurora]

Make getting hit cause peril

[old quail]

the talent tree needs more interactions with peril in general

it gets... warp rider and the toughness regen talents

[trim hemlock]

Yeah, if there was actual choices to be made with peril quelling in mind, maybe even Exorcist as a FS blessing would be a valuable inclusion

but as is

[old quail]

😔

[white minnow]

beta peril is a bit too "wide" and slow for me

[old quail]

beta peril is probably better in the sense that it placed more restrictions on you but peril also needs more ways to be managed rather than just "hold r for 2 ticks"

[trim hemlock]

Beta peril was basically Vermintide 2 peril, albeit one couldn't quell clicks of peril and had to actually commit some time to the animation (and also excluding the health cost for venting in general - I wonder if losing HP for venting should make a return...)

[slender turtle]

I heard there's a hidden talent that when you max out your peril and then use another warp based attack, you get an explosive attack

[old quail]

the forbidden arts

[white minnow]

should prob some "overperil" where if you cast something that costs 20% peril at 90%, you should still have to deal with that extra 10% peril by quelling it and whatnot

rather than the degeneracy that we currently get up to by just edging 100% peril constantly

and having the cast peril just get thrown into the void and not be something that we have to worry about

[old quail]

make every staff cost 50% to cast once

[white minnow]

so true

trauma staff when

[slender turtle]

When does vet get voidstrike staff

[trim hemlock]

but potentially necessary

[white minnow]

the biggest buff of them all will be to add back the beta peril meter

[shadow aurora]

Buy it

[trim hemlock]

I liked the old peril meter

[slender turtle]

💳

[white minnow]

top 10 tragedies

[shadow aurora]

Expired

[white minnow]

it looks so cool

[slender turtle]

[shadow aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/adachi-laugh-laughing-yakuza-ryu-ga-gotoku-gif-20928456

[white minnow]

its disappearance is the sole reason that i believe that they were working through a UI rework but never got to finishing it

[slender turtle]

Do you take adimatine?

[shadow aurora]

I got like

12000 of that shit

Got any plasteel?

[slender turtle]

I got like

54k of it

[shadow aurora]

[slender turtle]

back when there were no upgrades. Just material to collect for no reason

[shadow aurora]

Wait what?

I never played beta was that really a thing

[trim hemlock]

You only could have upgraded your items

Bad results or not, you had to make due with what you had

and visit the epic rotating store to get better things

[shadow aurora]

Ew

[slender turtle]

Release day when there was no modifying weapons. Just pray to God you got one good blessing

[shadow aurora]

Comically evil

They should add overweight shark to batmans rouges gallery

[slender turtle]

What insane man would think of such of system and coming off the heels of VT2

[trim hemlock]

A man that has been procrastinating and at the last moment realised that this cannot ship in the old model, make something else up, preferably as barebones as possible

and only now is FS apparently recovering from that technical debt

[slender turtle]

I would imagine if they had kept it, it would have made transitioning to darktide more appealing and just easier to work with

But we can't do anything easy

[iron marten]

When you only got 100ish plasteel on damnation

And 200 diamantine per run

Quite the times

[trim hemlock]

"Old" Damnation was ~300 plasteel per run IIRC

maybe more, I don't remember the exact numbers

but it definitely was higher than 100

[iron marten]

I swear it was only like 100-200 cause a lot of damnation players were farming in sedition lmao

[old quail]

340-ish iirc

malice was the most efficient plasteel wise

[candid agate]

now we get around 700-900 depending on idols and skulls

very nice

[slender turtle]

Oh my god I forgot about that, they did award you material in large amounts

Adimantine anyways

[iron marten]

I have 98k of the damn thing

[umbral garnet]

The good old days.

[iron marten]

Let me use it for something else

[wanton dawn]

Average per game or max amount ?

[slender turtle]

Build a ship with it and escape

[wanton dawn]

max amount was 750 plasteel on damn

still is

[slender turtle]

Depends. You can get 1100 if you have some people who haven't collected the skull for certain missions

[candid agate]

i have gotten 1000 on some runs

[wanton dawn]

I am not counting skull

[candid agate]

oh

[slender turtle]

Otherwise 900 if everyone is actually collecting material and getting idols

[umbral garnet]

Definitely a nice addition to the plasteel grind.

Still a grind but... Copium, I guess.

[iron marten]

I’ve stocked up for the crafting rework…

Though, only god knows when that will arrive

[umbral garnet]

That shit needs to come along. And fast.

[slender turtle]

I have a zealot friend up to 100k plasteel now

[trim hemlock]

Wait 'til next week

[iron marten]

I’m at 200k plasteel lol

[umbral garnet]

Crafting system is one of my last gripes with this game.

It's come a long way, though, I'll give the devs that.

Even if at a snail's pace.

[trim hemlock]

I only hope there's some concrete information besides: hey lol we're alive and we will be announcing the crafting system update in the very near future stay tuned xoxoxo

[iron marten]

If they get rid of the locks, instant recommend game to friends even if it’s not on sale

[umbral garnet]

Fucking TRUE

LET US HAVE OUR GOD WEAPONS

[wanton dawn]

I don't care about the crafting system at all

It waste my time

[iron marten]

Hey, our ordo dockets are similar. I have like 23mill lol

[umbral garnet]

LET US PAY TO GET HIGHER STATS IN THE STATS WE WANT

[wanton dawn]

I spend melk buck from time to time

to get missing blessings for instance

[umbral garnet]

It's nice having decent blessings on the weapons shared with my Vet.

To get all those t4 blessing on other characters.

[iron marten]

When materials amounts were unique for each character

What a fun time!

[umbral garnet]

I enjoy the game, it's great fun.

It's really progressed.

[slender turtle]

I like using all 4 classes. So my plasteel is always in dire need

[umbral garnet]

Recently got into Zealot and my plasteel stash weeps at going from where it was to where it is now.

[odd sparrow]

its 820 for damn, the patch notes said so atleast. And ive experienced pulling 800 from a mission

[slender turtle]

I remember zealot Mario kart in sedition just to grind out gold weapons

[agile forge]

That seems very inefficient

[slender turtle]

Speed running to the end to get gold weapons cause it was the only way at the time? Yeah.

Or it was the "better" way cause at the time, conscencrating was the only feature to hadrons machine slots

[sturdy zephyr]

Speedrun give gold gun??idk bout this

No wonder everyone being hasty

[slender turtle]

several patches ago, they did. The faster you were the more likely you'll get a gold weapon

You still got purple weapons but it was better to do that then to grind materials and slowly go conscencrate the weapon and be dissappointed

[sturdy zephyr]

Rich

[slender turtle]

What i lack in resources, im rich in characters with builds that perform

[wanton dawn]

Guess I should spend less melkbucks

Or play more character

[runic topaz]

Does survivalist give ammo back based on ammo reserves?

And not total ammo you spawn in with

[wanton dawn]

yes

it is the same for ammo mag

[runic topaz]

Ah gotcha

Well that suddenly feels a lot shittier on my plasma gun, only getting 1 ammo back every 5 seconds

[lunar sedge]

Can someone please recommend some loadout that built around Executioners and/or Marksman focus?

[hollow ibex]

yeah it's a pretty significant nerf

[lunar sedge]

However plasma is still without a doubt a strongest option for vet, it's still ammo efficent

However for some other stuff that's the punch in the gut

And for teammates

[hollow ibex]

the survivalist nerf hit gunluggers and gunkers the most

[lunar sedge]

I think they should make a bit higher % ammo generation but leave the 5second CD, or lower the CD. And atleast somehow buff or redo other auras

[runic topaz]

Yeah, im still gonna take it since im doing a bit of a meme pure support build, actually seems to be working which is nice

[lunar sedge]

Bear in mind that the other auras is now an option just for the mere fact that you can save a point or two, which is really important in vet tree

[runic topaz]

And yeah, even with a relatively bad plasma and a very suboptimal build im still feeling way stronger than with most other stuff ive been using lmao

[lunar sedge]

It's pretty broken actually, at some point obesefish will nerf it I'm sure

And as a classic they probably will kill it and it wouldn't be viable anymore

[gray finch]

i just wasted 120k plasteel just to have every lvl 4 blessing in the game

[wanton dawn]

AH ! You are POOR !

[languid dune]

I've only ever used the Mk IV Devil Claw way back and want to start using again. How does the Mk VII compare though as that's the other solid one that I know of

[tall torrent]

Significantly more complex moveset, fairly similar in performance

[languid dune]

Unnecessarily complex that it impacts usability however, or complex in a good way that it gives more options?

[tall torrent]

2nd

[languid dune]

Ok good

Figured that was the case as most stuff that is more complex in this tend to be a bit better in ways to compensate or just give better overall options

Mk VI P Sword comes to mind

[hollow warren]

How do I make this work?

[bitter turtle]

reload speed to elite

[hollow warren]

Is it though? should I keep it and switch Maniac for Unyielding/Carapice?

want to switch Gloryhunter for Blaze Away

[bitter turtle]

wdym is it though

carapace is pointless

elite gives the exact same bp on crusher

and gloryhunter is fine if if oyu want to keep it

blaze away is overall fairly whatever tbh

[hollow warren]

oh my bad, I read "reload speed is elite" think you mean it's a good perk xD

fml, wearing glasses and still can't see shit

[bitter turtle]

gloryhunter lets you play medic plasma anyway

up to you though

you can swap for blaze away if you like

[hollow warren]

hm... I'll think about keeping it or no, 25% toughness per kill might prove useful

[bitter turtle]

you can run it with CK and get 35% toughness and then share around 5% of that with your team per elite kill using born leader

its a cute idea

[hidden torrent]

Crusader Kings

[gray finch]

damn the range veteran is in really bad spot right now

[hollow ibex]

wdym?

[hidden torrent]

Exe stance is not good compared other options

Only is good in very particular builds

[hollow ibex]

oh ye

exec stance sucks donkey balls

[gray finch]

i mean comper to psyker the veteran fall behind in range department and if you go melee vet you are just become mediocre zealot
with melee vet you can at least go forward but its still slower than a zealot advance
the range also got huge nerf on ammo replenishment ane even with inflasguns you getting no value in killing huge amount of elites or specialist and psyker by killing 2-3 of them they kill no only every possible elite in game but also removing horde easly

[woeful ibex]

oh god

[hollow ibex]

actually so long as you're not going exec stance, vet is still strong as fuck

[gray finch]

even if you go for the VOC you still weaker then mediocre zealot

[bitter turtle]

i think practically speaking range vet is still better than gunker tbh

like i kn ow gunker has higher on paper dps but

[hollow ibex]

def not

[bitter turtle]

its contingent on scriers which just makes you even more paper

as for melee vet

the melee portion is weaker than zealot to be sure

i think melee vet still uses a gun better than zealot uses a gun though

weapon specialist is really nice

well

except for the armor downgrade on fotf to make any hipfire automatic ridiculously good on zealot :^)

honestly im pretty sure like half of zealot's power budget is in that ability but whatever

i still think its more busted than voc

[trim hemlock]

Should I consider the left or the right one? (left has Unarmoured, but that can go into Flak obviously)

[bitter turtle]

honeslty im not sure there is really a meaningful difference betwene the two

probably left though?

[trim hemlock]

Well, left has Gets Hot 3, but I doubt that the difference between 3 and 4 is relevant

[bitter turtle]

im aware

but yeah idk

see if elite 8% hits the bps you need?

and if it does

then go right ig?

[trim hemlock]

suppose so

[slender turtle]

At this point, they be better off just replacing it with a flat reload speed bonus for how terrible survivalist is now

[terse idol]

It's not bad

Like, for the weapons it nerfs, those weapons already have high max ammo

[hollow warren]

Why choose 10% ranged vs elites instead of the different 25% damage modifiers?

[terse idol]

Because 15% can sometimes change the breakpoint depending on the weapon

[slender turtle]

It's bad. It could also be changed to scale with ammo given back based on what type of ammo is used

[hollow warren]

I mean in case of the Plasma Gun, as seen above

[bitter turtle]

because

it hits the same breakpoints as some other 25% perks

while affecting a wider range of enemy types

for example

if you took carapace

you can also do the crusher 3 tap

but why not just take elite then

[terse idol]

5 second cooldown in the grand scheme of things just makes it so you can't shoot the entire time and weapons like the lasguns are barely affected by it.

[bitter turtle]

its really not that bad wtf

survivalist deserved the nerf

frankly it deserves to be deleted

but the nerf is a compromise

[terse idol]

Like, 5 seconds means vets actually have to pickup ammo bags from the map sometimes

It's actually pretty not bad

And forces vets to actually participate in one mechanic of the game

[slender turtle]

Sure but if you think about it, if you are using anything else that's not a plasma gun or revolver type weapon. The most you get back is a mag and half in a whole match which in the long run will just be pitiful. You could have just used the points for an extra 5% damage

[bitter turtle]

5% extra damage is meaningless if it doesnt open a new bp

[hollow warren]

Does the 10% elite stack with whatever 25% damage is the other perk?

[terse idol]

I mean, autoguns will get back alot of ammo anyways because high max ammo

[bitter turtle]

in any case

its an actual choice now at least?

[hollow ibex]

feels like the nerf is a totally misguided way to force people to melee more

[terse idol]

This really only affects 2 weapons, boltgun and revolver

[hollow ibex]

like who cares

[bitter turtle]

because survivalist isnt the most obscenely strong aura in the game anymore, wow

[terse idol]

It's certainly not misguided

[bitter turtle]

it wasnt even to vet's benefit

[terse idol]

It's teaching people they can't shoot the entire game

[bitter turtle]

baecause all it did was make ppl beg you to bring surv and mald if you didnt

[slender turtle]

Then why the 5 second nerf. I'd been more for 2.5 seconds or just changing it to something else entirely since two guns has everyone moaning about ammo economy

[terse idol]

Darktide has always been mixed melee ranged

Rather than vermintide being melee focus

[hollow ibex]

this ain't vermintide, if people want to shoot, let them shoot

[bitter turtle]

bc its an option now for some guns that are more ammo hungry, i dont understand the question

i still take it on bolter/agri shotty

[hollow ibex]

very few people were shooting for literally the entire game anyway

[terse idol]

And you can

[bitter turtle]

then they should have 0 problems

[hollow ibex]

and those that want to will probably keep doing so anyway

[terse idol]

If you build an ilas

[bitter turtle]

i was not even running surv before the nerf on a lot of builds lol

[terse idol]

And then if people want to shoot the entire game

[hollow ibex]

they why nerf it, if it wasn't even an issue to begin with

[gray finch]

there is so much ammo pickups in this game that you can finnish game with 2 ammo crate unused
so instead nerfing surv maybe they should look on ammo pickups

[terse idol]

You can grab ammo bags from the game

Survivalist was an issue

[hollow ibex]

it just makes bad ammo economy guns even worse

[bitter turtle]

it was absolutely an issue

[terse idol]

Still is frankly

[hollow ibex]

and hurts other classes

[slender turtle]

Bolter and shotty I don't mind. It's just the usage of it is so negligible now you could have done something else

[hollow ibex]

vet suffers the least from the nerf tbh

[bitter turtle]

half the guns in the game could walk around and never pick up a single ammo bag lol

[terse idol]

Only 1 class is affected

Gungryn

Psyker

Doesn't use ammo

[bitter turtle]

and gunker/gungryns being dependent on it

is a better argument

to nerf it

[terse idol]

Besides scruer

[bitter turtle]

than to keep it

[hollow ibex]

gunker: am i a joke to you

[bitter turtle]

why the fuck should vet be forced to take an aura to enable other classes?

and yes

that's exactly what happened

[terse idol]

Yes

[bitter turtle]

ppl mald if you dont take it

[terse idol]

Scyer is a meme butA

[hollow ibex]

yeah and that's shit game design

[bitter turtle]

yes

[terse idol]

You should be able to conserve ammo

[bitter turtle]

so nerf the thing

let them deal with it, if they need an ammo buff, let that happen

[hollow ibex]

but it's better than making the ammo economy shit for everyhone

[terse idol]

I mean

[bitter turtle]

no its really not

[hollow ibex]

bandaid fix for the wrong problem

[bitter turtle]

ppl just need to play better

have you seen

[hollow ibex]

this is a casual game

[bitter turtle]

the number of ppl

that keep complaining that bolter is unplayable ammo econ now lol

[hollow ibex]

people aren't going to think "oh i should git gud because surv was nerfed"

[slender turtle]

Where those people cause I never met them. Experiences vrs experiences however and I just don't get the major nerf to an aura now that it feels more of a waste now. It's great for single shot weapons but other than that however, it's negligible in the scale of a single match

[bitter turtle]

then run something else if you feel like its a waste

easy

[white minnow]

the baseline ammo economy has always been good

survivalist just cranked it up to another level

[bitter turtle]

i still see value in it for some guns

its an option

like it should be

not a mandatory pick

lol

[slender turtle]

I do. But that's not a solution. That's a cop out

[bitter turtle]

yes

and you'd be wrong to say its useless on every gun

[hollow ibex]

i hardly ever take surv now

[white minnow]

because it's not just plentiful ammo pickups but also that guns just have a lot of reserve ammo to act as a buffer and to benefit from pickups

[bitter turtle]

so its like i said

that's how it should be

why should it be an autopick on every build

[slender turtle]

If that's balancing then who was it made for?

[bitter turtle]

ppl actually gaslit themselves

into think

[gray finch]

vet now is high skill but also is low reword bcs with any other class with this amount of skill you need for veteran to perform you will do 2 times better at any situation

[bitter turtle]

c&k is a bad aura

bc surv was just that broken

[slender turtle]

Tf c&k is a good aura

[bitter turtle]

when c&k is better than the avg aura compared to other skill trees

[bitter turtle]

yeah go look at the reddit poll when its literally the bottom rated aura

[hollow ibex]

sure old surv was shit design

[bitter turtle]

that's how broken surv was

ppl gaslit themselves

bc they think surv is the "standard"

[hollow ibex]

new surv is still shit design, and just makes ranged-focused playstyles more annoying

thanks fatshart, really cool

[radiant chasm]

This

[bitter turtle]

im still playing range focus playstyles just fine

[white minnow]

just pick up ammo

[hollow ibex]

certain* ranged playstyles

point still stands

[bitter turtle]

yeah like what

revolver only range vet?

just use a gun actually meant for it jfc

[gray finch]

that the problem there is way to many ammo pick ups in the mission

[hollow ibex]

the change just meant that ammo efficient builds are totally unchanged

[radiant chasm]

Just buff the damage and movement speed aura to as strong as survivalist was, 25% damage and 25% movement speed

[slender turtle]

I just don't it justifies the killing of survivalist for the few that moan about it. Just lazy balancing that could have been more thought out

[bitter turtle]

it was not killed

[radiant chasm]

Nah there should be a ton of pickups so the game doesnt need survivalist

[bitter turtle]

i really dont understand

what this "killed" business is

[white minnow]

sure but it's also a complete non-issue

[gray finch]

the surv nerf was so ogryns wont shoot forever and they still do bcs the ammo pickups

[white minnow]

baseline ammo economy is still good

[bitter turtle]

i literally still run it on builds that need a bit more help on ammo

lol

[radiant chasm]

It’s just game warping

[hollow ibex]

maybe they should've nerfed gunlugger instead

[bitter turtle]

and yes

it feels like a big difference

for something like agri shotgun

[gray finch]

there is 2 out of 4 character that doesnt need ammo anymore

[slender turtle]

I know. It's a skill issue that got the devs to kill an aura for another several months

[radiant chasm]

Gunlugger underperforms without a surv vet, exponentially more depending on how ammo hungry teammates are

[bitter turtle]

like

let me ask

what "playstyle"

are we talking about

[slender turtle]

*skill issue from players, I should specify

[bitter turtle]

that is killed

[radiant chasm]

Lol surv isnt dead

[bitter turtle]

by the surv nerf

genuinely

like give me a real example lmao

[radiant chasm]

It’s S+ tier down from SSS tier

[hollow ibex]

anyway, not going to argue this any further. survivalist was and is still shit game design. the nerf doesn't change that.

[gray finch]

and vet and ogryn is in the pool which they need ammo to prosper

[white minnow]

it's closer to the other auras now

[radiant chasm]

Bolter, but bolter was already dead

[bitter turtle]

the irony is that its literally prob still the best aura lmao

[bitter turtle]

not even

[white minnow]

yeah it's obviously a bandaid fix but such is fatshark life and pace

[bitter turtle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046912126746374274/1237348959031394385/455fd6138bea347d8878af622e71f4af-1.jpg?ex=664b2484&is=6649d304&hm=154442e321e1e7cb15335f4af8eaaf919bdd73b518818708fae9a456488e3784&

[slender turtle]

Gunkers expending all their ammo too soon, gunluggers not managing their ammo. Sometimes it's the players themselves who preferred an ammo printer on the side just cause

[radiant chasm]

Yee im just saying out of all guns, bolter was hurt the most

[bitter turtle]

if i can do 300k ranged dmg while picking up only 3 small 2 large bag

that is fine

[slender turtle]

Yes. Your skill is above others to make it count cause you know what's a bigger threat

[bitter turtle]

you literally said yourself

its them not playing properly

the builds are still perfectly playable

i would know i had to give myself brain dmg playing gunlugger to finish penance

[white minnow]

if only they could've foreseen their lack of ammo in advance

this is so sad

[terse idol]

Like all I can say is, uh if
The other gun sub classes are struggling on ammo, the game is better off buffing ways they generate ammo.
Rather than forcing vet is take survivalist

[slender turtle]

So it was appropriate to make an aura cause of two builds just not worth using?

[bitter turtle]

and its perfectly playable

[white minnow]

it's not just cuz of 2 builds

[bitter turtle]

but it still is worth using

frankly

its still the best aura lmao

[white minnow]

4% ammo conditional only on elite/special kills by ANYONE in coherency is just baseline stupid

[elder fiber]

how am I supposed to see anything past the two bruisers taht I spent an entire clip magdumping

[bitter turtle]

makes the biggest difference on the guns that use it

the fact that you think 5% dmg aura is remotely competitive speaks volumes

5% dmg aura is fucking worthless 99% of the time

[radiant chasm]

This, im shocked psyker doesn’t have their own lucky bullet or ammo gen. Gluggers get bigger reserves and lucky bullet

[slender turtle]

And that's where I just disagree. It's marginal in the match, no one is like "damn, I still had just enough ammo cause of survivlist"

[elder fiber]

gunkers absolutely don't need ammo buffs lmao

use a fucking blitz sometimes, nerd

or melee

[bitter turtle]

a zealot never goes into the game going "yeah i have this 1tap breakpoint but only if vet brings fire team and we are in coherency :^)"

[terse idol]

I mean gunsyker I guess takes assail

[bitter turtle]

nobody cares about dmg auras except yourself

so its just a personal 5% dmg boost

[terse idol]

Which, I hate balancing out using a gun for throwing crystals

[bitter turtle]

which can(?) make a difference in some scenarios

but its very small

[radiant chasm]

Maybe warp ammunition? Getting warp kills gives you free warp bullets

[terse idol]

Yeag

[radiant chasm]

You could still make their gameplay more dynamic and interesting

[bitter turtle]

play agri shotty/revolver w/ and without surv

you will see a difference

in ammo pickups

objectively

very easy to go red on agri shotty especially

[terse idol]

I mean then ite a learning issue

[elder fiber]

I don't think giving them more freedom to magdump badly is making it dynamic and interesting

[terse idol]

At somepoijt you should learn

[bitter turtle]

bc any bad aim or mistakes turns a 1tap into a 3 tap

[terse idol]

To only use your gun in specific times

[radiant chasm]

Thematically gunker is very much half wizard half gun, they don’t mix

[terse idol]

Like ignorance or, not wanting to learn isn't an excuse

[bitter turtle]

the irony of this

is that i was shooting my v7 like 90% of the match and only meleeing defensively when enemies come to me

without survivalist

the entire time

and not running out of ammo

[white minnow]

and if one's inability to manage ammo is such an impedance that they're actually running out of ammo, that's also a sign that they should drop difficulties

[gray finch]

just remember if you go out of ammo you still have assilum to carry your ass

[bitter turtle]

if ppl want to play "shoot literally everything" builds you can still do it

just dont play fucking revolver only exec vet or something

[white minnow]

don't underestimate my hordeclear revolver

[elder fiber]

I mean if psyker wants to shoot infinitely

staves are right there (We need more staves direly)

[radiant chasm]

But my way of having fun is constsntly mag dumping hordes and if fatshark doesnt support my playstyle they are anti fun

I bought this shooter game because i wanna shoot nonstop

[bitter turtle]

the ilas are right there

:^)

[white minnow]

can't believe fatshark would FORCE me to use melee

my god

[bitter turtle]

i remember someone kept denying that melee is our primary weapon

even though you know

[radiant chasm]

Yea it’s a shooter not a swinger

[bitter turtle]

the game literally labels it so

[white minnow]

tbf that's darktide inheriting vermintide terminology

[bitter turtle]

they would have swapped it if they wanted to

or maybe not

fatshark after all

[white minnow]

like the game limiting a player's ability is not inherently something bad

and if you just want a mindless ranged-only power fantasy, that's what lower difficulties are for

[radiant chasm]

Yea idk how players can say “omg I’m spending half the map with no ammo cause survivalist nerfs”

[bitter turtle]

i just dont understand bc you still literally can larp your range only fantasy

https://i.gyazo.com/facbe3ebb6a29b2e3c866dd7605b4713.png

thi sis from a while back

but

you can just pick a gun

that is actually ammo efficient

100k melee dmg 400k range dmg and basically no ammo pickup

[radiant chasm]

Like at a certain point manage your ammo

[elder fiber]

they were spending half the map with no ammo before survivalist nerfs but this time its def because of the nerfs

the glory days of shredder being good and seeing a gunker go red within 5 minutes

[elder oriole]

surgical helbore with shock trooper does exactly that lol

feels so nice not having to pickup a single ammo box throughout an entire game

[balmy flume]

Laspistols as well

[wanton dawn]

I mean, my most nerfed build are the exe stance one

[balmy flume]

Exe stance do need some more loving, in this melee heavy game

[wanton dawn]

I said it already, but the issue with surv nerf is that it reinforced the meta

[slender turtle]

You failed to mention auto weapons in your list. Yes those weapons still get some usage from survivalist still. (Was driving so I couldn't look back)

[wanton dawn]

Autogun might be the class of gun that got hit the hardest though

[elder fiber]

I haven't had a single issue with any autogun post survivalist nerf

have been using them since before they got 100 ammo buff

[wanton dawn]

Well, i had issue. Guess i dont know the secret sauce or i play with different standard idk

[radiant chasm]

Nah

My agri brauto been working fine

And my vraks 3

[hollow ibex]

braced def got hit by the surv nerf

IAGs aren't affected too much because they have high finesse

so they're pretty ammo efficient

[radiant chasm]

Hit by im taking 3 extra small ammo pickups and one big one

[hollow ibex]

likewise HHs basically aren't affected

the nerf really just exacerbated the guns that have ammo issues

that's it

[white minnow]

that and the fact that the culture of using IAGs doesn't encourage spamming it anyways

[hollow ibex]

yeah braced is much more spammy

and that has not faired well with the surv nerf

[white minnow]

i mean, it's fine

my problem with this discourse is that people keep talking about how weapons suffer in relation to other weapons when it's just fine anyways in a game

like come on

[elder fiber]

maybe cumnuts braced is worse off but nobody uses that

[wanton dawn]

Hence, "reinforced meta". Kind of my point

[hollow ibex]

i mean it's totally valid, i just don't used braced anymore in general

[elder fiber]

been totally fine on graia and agri braced, just use more controlled bursts or single shot vs stuff like long ranged snipers

[white minnow]

yeah, and my statement was a counterpoint that it ultimately doesn't matter

[hollow ibex]

meanwhile plasma is more ammo hungry now than ever, which is obviously fine because of how strong the gun is

but braced were never that good

[white minnow]

i'm not trying to talk over you
I'm intentionally engaging with what you previously said

[hollow ibex]

and they've become even worse with ammo nerfs

[wanton dawn]

It does matter imo. My most nerfed build were my most "experimental". It is kinda annoying

[white minnow]

braced have always been fine and they are still fine

[hollow ibex]

a lot of things are "fine"

[white minnow]

alright let's not use fine

[hollow ibex]

fine is a low fucking bar

[white minnow]

they're good

[hollow ibex]

most guns in the game are fine

[white minnow]

they have been good and are still good

cunt

[hollow ibex]

nah

take a chill pill

[white minnow]

i'm not fond of semantic arguments

[wanton dawn]

Meanwhile, i just go ws plasma/ps and crush every vet on the killfeed. Unless they bring plasma as well

With better survability as well

[white minnow]

though i have a feeling that this is completely unrelated to ammo

[hollow ibex]

How is it semantic when fine and good mean two completely different things

Cunt

[white minnow]

because from context you can infer what I mean instead of attempting to detract the argument

[wanton dawn]

Well, before that i could bring bolter, ciag, brauto and do just as well on some maelstrom mod

[white minnow]

i've had this encounter many times and i'm not fond of people who keep on trying to drag the argument with another topic

[wanton dawn]

Now those build are noticiably weaker

Bolter especially

[agile forge]

CIAG maybe needs ES more than it used to to make more use out of every bullet

[tall torrent]

Nah it’s still really strong on its own

[agile forge]

Rather, I should say benefits more from it than before

needs is a strong word

nothing needs ES

VoC is strong enough to go on every build

[tall torrent]

A few guns really want exe stance

[agile forge]

list 'em, I wanna try more ES builds

[tall torrent]

Columnus mk5 is not one of them

[tall torrent]

MG12 & Boltgun

[agile forge]

oh, k, don't wanna use those lmao

[tall torrent]

Yea

[agile forge]

I'm gonna keep using CIAG with it anyway though, I just like being able to benefit from every single part of the ES ult

there isn't a single facet of it that doesn't synergise with it

it's good enough without it but it's even better with it

[bitter turtle]

oh no

ciag got a nerf

whatever will we do

:^)

cant spray into hordes and have 2 pickups anymore

[agile forge]

you can still treat CIAG as a primary weapon but it helps to keep surv aura on it

you just need to grab an occasional ammo box

you get like 100 bullets in a small pickup

[slow spade]

I hope ciag gets a buff one day :c

I almost didn't break 100 elite kills 😔

[slender turtle]

You lost me

[bitter turtle]

no autoweapons have ammo problems except the ones that are already trash either way

which yes

survivalist nerf hurt shredder autopistol

but that is the least of shredder autopistol's worries

[slender turtle]

You are missing the point I am making

You are just jumping to conclusions to "he must be saying it's just super bad it's unusable"

[bitter turtle]

you actually uh

did say that earlier

but either way

whats your point then

that iags have to pick up more than 2 ammo boxes now?

that shredder/recon got worse but were already trash anyway?

[slow spade]

we need pre-nerf Shredder autopistol again UwU

[bitter turtle]

what other autoweapons are there for vet

im lumping brauto with iag

only other sorta-kinda auto weapon is v3 HH and i can personally tell you i never ran survivalist pre or post nerf and it has no problems

[slender turtle]

No that survivalist was nerfed heavily that the only ones who really benefit from it now are single shot weapons (excluding plasma)

[bitter turtle]

not really

pretty sure you still wanna run surv on recon if you insist on playing it

and as for iags

its not so much that you dont benefit

[slender turtle]

I don't, but recon has its own list of problems

[bitter turtle]

its that they never needed it

in the first place

[white minnow]

out of curiosity, how exactly do single-shot weapons disproportionately benefit from survivalist

[bitter turtle]

they don't

i dont even understand that narrative

[tall torrent]

Plasma still rly benefits from survivalist

[bitter turtle]

its more like it just so happens a lot of less ammo efficient guns are single shot

[tall torrent]

It’s the worst for it but it still needs ammo

[bitter turtle]

but an ammo inefficient automatic still wants surv

see:recon

but its not like you should be taking surv on an ilas build just bc its semi auto

frankly that is just a waste

when you can hold down the left trigger the entire game and not run out

[tall torrent]

I’ve played with MG1a a bit and u can in fact run very low on it without surv

Lowest I ever got to was like 103 ammo left

[bitter turtle]

with shocktrooper?

[tall torrent]

With shock trooper, yes

[bitter turtle]

idk mg4 literally i can hold down left click full auto mod and its fine lol

well either way

[slender turtle]

Bias can blind you from the point I am trying take but you assume I am arguing out of being salty for an aura that could have been managed better.

Revolvers and shotguns get better milage from their damage and build setups that one shot can kill several elites or ragers in one shot. Shotguns follow suit that they do more damage per shot than automatic weapons. Automatic guns have larger ammo pools but get incredibly less value from 7 bullets gained out of the 8 ragers you mowed down in that timeframe

[bitter turtle]

the option is there if you want it

[tall torrent]

MG4 has a lot more shots available

[bitter turtle]

killing several elites in one shot dont disproportionatley benefit from surv bc only one of them is gonna count

[tall torrent]

MG1a with max ammo roll + 25% reserve ammo can shoot 336 shots (without shock trooper)

MG4 is way higher than that

[bitter turtle]

the ammo you get back scales from your reserve

so i dont understand how its "worse" for automatics

you might have a point if high cleave weapons could multi-dip if they manage to cleave kill multiple elites in one shot

but it doesnt work that way

like

example

my ciag kills a rager in 5 shots

i get back 6

how is that any different from

my shotgun kills a rager in 1 shot

i get back 1

[slender turtle]

7 bullets back for auto weapons that have bigger pools vrs the few bullets you need from a revolver to lines of elites in a single shot. It takes more from automatic weapons to reach that level of killing potential that the return on ammo from survivalist is marginal

[bitter turtle]

if anythin gits better lol

[bitter turtle]

no it does not

at least the good ones

lol

[terse idol]

(Frankly again, the higher max ammo for automatic weapons makes surv better even for the nerf)

(Than shotguns)

[wanton dawn]

Ciag has no cleave and also want to shot basic shooter

[bitter turtle]

yes but that's an entirely different issue than surv being :"worse" for it than semi autos

[tall torrent]

Was playing with Gale (Byeah) this game

[terse idol]

Also in theory

[tall torrent]

Practically shot MG1a the entire time

If anything moved I shot it

[terse idol]

Like, you shoot 1 line of enemies with a revolver you only get your bullet back for 1 enemy in the time span of 5 seconds

[tall torrent]

Ran as low as 128 ammo left at the end of the staircase descent

[bitter turtle]

i mean

[terse idol]

And the cleave isn't (that) huge

[slender turtle]

Then I am glad that you stand with me in that the ammo won't matter but you aren't willing to see the point I am trying make. And that's fine

[terse idol]

It's not like a plasmagun

Which... really isn't affected by surv nerf

[bitter turtle]

what

[slender turtle]

What

[tall torrent]

Schizophrenic veteran chat

[bitter turtle]

you are the one who said
#veteran-class message

auto weapons benefit exactly the same

[terse idol]

Wait, roll it back because ciag takes a few bullets to kill ragers

[bitter turtle]

the reason you do not need to run surv on ciag is because its op as fug

[radiant chasm]

How quick does ciag pop trash shooters

[terse idol]

Yeah it's ammo positive to fire the ciag

[tall torrent]

2 headshots

[bitter turtle]

not because surv is "worse" for it for some nebulous reason

again

a highly ammo efficient semi auto

mg4

[radiant chasm]

It’s not a massive drain on their ammo economy

[bitter turtle]

does not run surv

[terse idol]

And even regular shooters are killed in like 1 shot by the ciag or 2

[bitter turtle]

meanwhile a highly inefficient automatic

recon

[slender turtle]

And I explained to you that it takes more ammo to kill a pack of elites than it does with weapons that take single shots to take them out

[bitter turtle]

does run nsurv

[radiant chasm]

I use the agri brauto

[radiant chasm]

% of ammo

[white minnow]

and also comparing two weapons with different two use cases

[bitter turtle]

yes and you get more bullets back because automatics have higher ammo reserve?

[radiant chasm]

Is all that matters

[white minnow]

almost like you're only using the revolver specifically when there are HVTs around

[bitter turtle]

5 bullets to kill, 6 bullets back

[white minnow]

and that in itself skews results

[terse idol]

I mean frankly the higher max ammo count gives you more value over time even when you pick up small ammo tins compared to a revolver or a shotgun

[slender turtle]

But if I'm killing them faster than the timer then I'm getting a not so good return on investment on ammo

[bitter turtle]

explain to me

once again

how is that any different

[tall torrent]

This scope gives me tuberculosis

[bitter turtle]

than a revolver killing 1

[radiant chasm]

Using more bullets doesn’t mean anything if you are getting more back you have to calculate % individually for each weapon

[bitter turtle]

and getting 1 back

js revolver doesnt even get 1 back

on a kill

it gets less

so im actually being more generous to your argument

lol

[bitter turtle]

so how is that different than revolver shooting 5 dudes in a row

lol

vs me using ciag to automatic spray 5 dudes in a row

i dont get it

[radiant chasm]

Im being baffled here

It’s like teaching population density

[slender turtle]

I'm good, I tried explaining it to you. It's just a disagreement on an aura

[wanton dawn]

Last game i killed a conga line of 6 shotgunner with 1 plasma shot. Ciag would require at least half a mag in a real game

[radiant chasm]

With someone who thinks america would have more people per capita

[radiant chasm]

% of total ammo matters

And that needs to be calculated per weapon

[bitter turtle]

that has more to do with cleave than the fact that its single shot

[bitter turtle]

meant to quote

and that didnt change

[radiant chasm]

Also that, cleave on ranged makes things imbalanced

[bitter turtle]

pre or post nerf surv

[white minnow]

yeah and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are single-shot or that one is automatic

[bitter turtle]

if anything

[white minnow]

i'm glad that other reasons besides their firing mode are the reasons that they are so efficient

[wanton dawn]

Well, cleave improve ammo efficiency and ammo efficiency mayters more this patch

[radiant chasm]

Def pre nerf, matters less now

[bitter turtle]

yes but again

the guy is claiming

that there is no point in taking surv on automatics

because it "does nothing"

[wanton dawn]

Oh

[bitter turtle]

it has nothing to dowith automatic or semi auto

[wanton dawn]

Well, thats a take alright

[bitter turtle]

#veteran-class message

inf act

he says plasma doesnt want surv

lol

[wanton dawn]

Tbf that is not what is written

[tall torrent]

Here’s the numerical comparison

Revolver shooting 5 shots (to kill 5 elites) in <5s:
5/(5+65) = 5/70 = 7.1% ammo used
(1% x65)/70 = 0.65/70 = 0.9% ammo gained

Columnus mk5 (assuming max ammo roll) killing 5 elites (assuming 6 shots each) in <5s:
30/(58+725) = 30/783 = 3.8% ammo used
(1% x725)/783 = 7.25/783 = 0.9% ammo gained

[wanton dawn]

Assuming 6 shot per elite is a bias

[bitter turtle]

you need context of what was said previously

#veteran-class message

[tall torrent]

Yea realistically it would be higher

[bitter turtle]

he has been saying survivalist is kill

repeatedly

and bad now

and overnerfed

[tall torrent]

Even if I put it at 10 shots per elite

[bitter turtle]

and when i bring up that a lot of weapons like revolver/agri shotty still rly wnat surv

[tall torrent]

That’s still 50/783 = 6.4% ammo used

[wanton dawn]

Well, i agree that surv nerf was badly though out

[bitter turtle]

he goalpost shifts to "only single shot weapons care!"

[tall torrent]

That’s still lower than revolver

[radiant chasm]

It’s only badly thought out cause survivalist should have never been in the game

[wanton dawn]

Realistically ciag would spend more due to trash soaking compare to revolver cleaving but alrught

[tall torrent]

That’s a different thing from pure ammo gain/loss based off survivalist

[radiant chasm]

Realistically this is all in our head

[wanton dawn]

Revolver can kill 5 elite in one shot so it matters

[tall torrent]

Which elite

[wanton dawn]

Ciag cant

[white minnow]

and it's also a simplified model so you can't just trivially declare that one type benefits significantly more than another type of weapon anyways

which is my main gripe

[bitter turtle]

tbh i like the nerf outside of the part where i would have preferred it outright deleted

affects lower difficulties much less

compared to auric mael where they threw 1205812058120 gorillion elites and specials at you at once

[white minnow]

because these weapons have different value propositions and use cases that skew whatever model that nights was thinking of in their head

[wanton dawn]

Shotgunners conga line

[tall torrent]

Shotgunner is 2 hitmass
Revolver is 6.5 cleave
You’d hit 4 at best

Actually this reminds me

I need to put in cleave stuff for ranged weapon pages

[wanton dawn]

K, 2 shot then

[tall torrent]

Kms

I gotta figure out where to include that

[wanton dawn]

Unless you factor 20% power from talent tree on ws ult

Oh wait, thats not enough for 8

Dangit

Need red serum too

[bitter turtle]

either way, this convo started entirely bc more "survivalist is kill" doomposting