veteran-class

[somber axle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046912126746374274/1230566055198326805/xhpMWku.png?ex=662d3172&is=662bdff2&hm=cbf0fef6ee7290d96660d037e6b64f39f001cb375eb4e769b9c506f8d7f7f8f7&

yeah here it is

[oblique totem]

I don't like plasma guns either

Too slow

[somber axle]

this is the Mk III Helbore for reference

and exclusively for hitting 1HKO on Crusher heads

[oblique totem]

Gotta manage ammo and heat? Or it damages me?
Pass.

[bitter turtle]

nah

[somber axle]

Mk II Helbore basically always wants Unarmoured damage perk for a certain breakpoint that I forgor

[bitter turtle]

you dont really have to manage anything on plasma

just left click

[bitter turtle]

for dreg gunners

[umbral scaffold]

if you dont want to kill super heavies yeah

[somber axle]

yeah there we go

[bitter turtle]

wdym

[umbral scaffold]

Plague ogryns ogryns etc

[bitter turtle]

left click dps is higher than charging

[somber axle]

I think like with Dreg Gunners outside of niche scenarios like 10 or 15 stack Marksman's Focus with the Mk II you'll always need the Unarmoured damage perk whether your Mk II Helbore is 60% damage or 80% damage

[umbral scaffold]

dps is just a stat on paper

[bitter turtle]

the only real benefit of charging is increasing cleave (fairly niche)

[somber axle]

cleave is very important

[bitter turtle]

on plasma?

the base shots already have insane cleave

[umbral scaffold]

cleave is important you can decimate a horde with a few shots

[bitter turtle]

unless you're trying to shoot 7 crushers in a line

the cleave it has is fine

[somber axle]

on a plasma no and tbh they should nerf uncharged plasma shots further

to encourage people to use charged shots

[bitter turtle]

im not saying cleave is not important

im saying the base cleave without charging is already ridiculous

genuinely

i think you'd only need to charge again

[somber axle]

there's really no reason to use charged shots right now out of hyperspecific scenarios that most people will not think of when they do run into those hyperspecific scenarios

[bitter turtle]

if you are shooting 7+ crushers in a line

[somber axle]

but it's FUN

so I still use charged shots sometimes because I think it's fun

[umbral scaffold]

yeah they buffed plasma crazily bcs a pistol did more damage somehow than a support weapon that kills tanks

which is still funny

[bitter turtle]

also charging to shoot a crusher can be valid because its easier to follow up a 2nd shot rather than hit its head 3 times with uncharged

but if you can avoid it, its still better ammo efficiency to not charge

[somber axle]

you can also get a 1HKO on Crusher heads with charged shots iirc

so 1 shot headshot crit Crusher head or spam 3 plasma shots in rapid succession on a Crusher head

[umbral scaffold]

uncharged on 4 and 5 does jack fuck all to crushers

[bitter turtle]

wdym 4 and 5

like actually not sure what you're referring to

[umbral scaffold]

difficulty

[bitter turtle]

uhh

not really

[umbral scaffold]

yeah ? i used it alot i know what im talking about i MAIN IT

[oblique totem]

Plasma guns are currently more accurate at range than many other guns.

That shouldn't be the case

[umbral scaffold]

the bullet is larger afaik

[somber axle]

Some people refer to Heresy as difficulty 4
Some people refer to Damnation as difficulty 5

that's why you see 5HiSTG

it means Damnation High Intensity Shock Trooper Gauntlet

but in a short easy to read form

[oblique totem]

Well, yeah. Bigger bullet hits more.

[umbral scaffold]

bullet isnt more acurate its just plain bigger

yeah

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/f4e5380d4a6e25012d1063b5e4af4d45.jpg

htf is this not a lot

3 shots and its dead

lol

[umbral scaffold]

in the chest ?

[bitter turtle]

why are you shooting it in the chest

[oblique totem]

Meaning making long shots is easier. Particularly against snipers.

[umbral scaffold]

youre not gonna always get the head in game

[bitter turtle]

its a crusher

[umbral scaffold]

a charged body shot will do more damage than missed headshots

[bitter turtle]

we're not talking about a rager that's zooming around with a tiny head

slow and big with a big head

[somber axle]

I can see an argument for a chest shot if the Crusher is knocked over by another player

[oblique totem]

I basically have to miss the crusher's head on purpose

[somber axle]

like if they're on their back trying to get up

[umbral scaffold]

yes

also when they turn corners

[somber axle]

it doesn't happen very often after the stagger threshold was buffed for Bulwarks, Crushers and Reapers but it is something that still happens

[bitter turtle]

btw

[somber axle]

depending on your angle to the Crusher you may not even have a proper headshot angle

[bitter turtle]

so sure

ill take your argument

lets say bodyshots

full charged needs +1 uncharged afterwards to kill

[umbral scaffold]

lets say backshots

[bitter turtle]

uncharged takes 4 shots to kill

guess what

that's

the same ammo efficiency lol

so even weighing things in favor of charging

its still not better than just left click spamming

[umbral scaffold]

usually you have temates arround for the rest of it

so you dont need that extraa shot

[bitter turtle]

by that logic charging is bad because what if your knife teammate goes up and slaps its 3 times and a single uncharged shot will kill it

[umbral scaffold]

aand can switch to ragers or the 3 other crushers following

What's the BiS Blessings for Columnus?

[bitter turtle]

good news

there are a lot of good ones

well

you want Dum Dum no matter what

[umbral scaffold]

are you a league player 😭 ❓

[somber axle]

ayo??

[umbral scaffold]

What's League?

[bitter turtle]

but Hit & Run, Raking Fire, Deathspitter, Fire Frenzy are good 2nd blessings

[umbral scaffold]

Bis best in slot ?

[bitter turtle]

you can do stripped down too if you really like it

i don treally think its that great but a lot of ppl like it

[umbral scaffold]

I was thinking Death Spitter and Sustained Fire

[bitter turtle]

dont do sustained

that one is actually not good lul

its dumdum + one of the ones i mentioned

dumdum is by far the best blessing on the gun

[somber axle]

Hey I just checked and charged shot can still 1HKO Crusher heads

and I don't even have an 80% damage stat Plasma

[umbral scaffold]

So DD and DS

id imagine raking fire would be good with stealth or just conditionally getting behind enemies somhow

[somber axle]

it's only 71%

so it's not even a tricky breakpoint

[umbral scaffold]

not very consistant damage tho if you cant get their behinds

[bitter turtle]

its good because it turns ciag into a boss killing weapon

[somber axle]

oh whoops sorry

I have a 75%

I misread

[bitter turtle]

and sometimes it helps against bulwarks

but mostly its to add a fuckton of damage on monstros

[umbral scaffold]

oh yeah i rememgber that
ig too with the sweet spot on the slug

[last parcel]

damn that makes me want to make a raking + unyielding ciag and call it monster fucker

[bitter turtle]

uncharged can 3shot which is the same ammo efficiency, is the thing

[oblique totem]

Monster masher

[bitter turtle]

and you dont risk blowing yourself up

and can start shooting immediately instead of charging

[oblique totem]

That was easy, I'm disappointed in you

[last parcel]

hi disappointed in y ou

[tame lodge]

Oi!!! Do you have your monster fucker license?

[radiant chasm]

Yes

[oblique totem]

Just Disappointed is fine.

[last parcel]

i don't need no license where i'm going

[somber axle]

yeah but like this is way more fun to do than spamming shots imo like the animation and charge

https://gyazo.com/17909e7f0828f0a67da0bd5cc4c42f0c

[oblique totem]

Damn that was fast

[somber axle]

and if you shoot a Crusher in the face with Plasma?

[bitter turtle]

i mean

[somber axle]

you'll find it gets thrown onto its ass

[bitter turtle]

if you think its fun

[oblique totem]

Unless that had already been made

[somber axle]

making the follow up headshots harder to hit

so like

[bitter turtle]

sure, go for it honestly

[radiant chasm]

i got it ready to pull out

[bitter turtle]

you dont need to follow up with headshots

[somber axle]

I think Plasma shooting 3 tap firing will take longer

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/d559c2f487e31f0fe5cf397166480031.jpg

headshot -> 2 body shots

[oblique totem]

Yeah, that makes more sense

[bitter turtle]

dead

[somber axle]

and if it uses the same number of ammo then it's not even more ammo efficiency either

[tame lodge]

[oblique totem]

I was hoping you made it on the spot

[bitter turtle]

like

there's no real advantage

both need to headshot first

the followups can be bodyshots

for uncharged

u can see the damage difference on the 2nd and 3rd shot

compared to 1st

i know its kinda obscured by the 2nd hp bar but

if naything

[somber axle]

yeah it uses the same ammo

[bitter turtle]

putting the crusher on its ass faster

is better

[somber axle]

it's just a preference thing LOL

[bitter turtle]

for uncharged spamming

so it doesnt you know

kill ppl

[somber axle]

like literally whether you want to shoot 3 shots spamming at a Crusher or 1 shot charging it up

[last parcel]

one shot kill make more happy chemical

[somber axle]

it makes no difference and TTK is equivalent

[last parcel]

🐒

[somber axle]

tbh 1HKO is probably slightly faster

just by the metric of instant death

even if you factor in charge time

but the difference is so negligible it legitimately does not matter in a real match

run what you find fun and enjoy your glowy gun

[oblique totem]

Why make use many bullets when one bullet do the same thing?
-Not an Ork.

[bitter turtle]

charging is definitely slower

remember

its a dps loss

[somber axle]

on Crushers no

[bitter turtle]

ok

let me record and literally tim eit

[somber axle]

I tested in the Psykanium and it uses the same amount of ammo and arguably the charged shot kills faster

[bitter turtle]

there is no arguably

the time used is a hard number

[somber axle]

I can record firing 3 shots too with my +25% carapace Plasma

yeah I'm here I can also do this LET'S GOOOO

[somber axle]

literally firing as fast as I can click fire with this using the tap fire I got this:

https://gyazo.com/53709dc47e5a3c5564a860a75134c0f9

also I'm faster than you recording so I get bonus points on that I think

anyway

[bitter turtle]

because

im going to video edit them

and put them side by side

eyeballing this is inaccurate

keep in mind

i want to add

this ignores the part

[umbral scaffold]

nuh huh

[somber axle]

2 seconds on TTK on my charged shot vs 2 seconds TTK on tapfire

[bitter turtle]

where putting the crusher on its ass immediately

[somber axle]

literally does not matter

LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

is an objective benefit

compared to charging and waiting

[somber axle]

and you can see both videos here I shared too for comparison and check the time on both

[bitter turtle]

so even if they are exactly the same

you're still better off uncharging

for the crowd control aspect

[somber axle]

your only benefit is maybe getting like more poxwalker kills between you and the crusher while tapfiring shots tbh

just because you were shooting more

but the charged shot has more cleave so like

[bitter turtle]

i mean

once again

crowd control

[somber axle]

if there's more hit mass with lots of crushers/maulers then the charged shot wins

[bitter turtle]

are we acting like stunning crushers is useless?

[somber axle]

it really depends on context

[bitter turtle]

i dont think ive ever gone

"oh no, the crusher was knocked down, I hate this"

[umbral scaffold]

stunning crushers so you can tuck them in and kiss them on the forehead goodnight

[somber axle]

I'm going to run a Damnation with this Plasma even though I think Plasma guns are boring and I'm going to use nigh-exclusively charged shots

https://tenor.com/view/pie-cake-explosion-boom-explode-gif-596449426258439727

[last parcel]

bro turned into a psyker 💀

[somber axle]

look for the exploding Vet and you'll find me

[oblique totem]

Well, I feel like a stunned crusher is far too alive for my liking but it also isn't about to drive me into the ground like a fence post so. I guess my feelings even out.

[tame lodge]

You're getting teabagged if you explode, I'm not going to sugarcoat

[past pike]

"Stunning Crusher...maybe good crowd control...

...Killing Crusher, is best crowd control."

-Sun Tzu, Art of War

[bitter turtle]

except they both are killing it

are we seriously arguing that charge shot better when its been a known fact for months that its useless

[oblique totem]

Well, hard to argue with Chinese Creed.

[tame lodge]

Gotta double check huh

[last parcel]

me when i beat off a dead horse

[past pike]

what are you doing with that horse

[oblique totem]

Honestly I'm gonna go with DPS over burst damage

[past pike]

[tame lodge]

"gotta double check huh"

[somber axle]

It's better because it's more fun

https://tenor.com/view/rpx_syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

[last parcel]

bro's not standing in defence pattern 2-12 💀

[oblique totem]

But that's because I like more dakka

[past pike]

imagine

[oblique totem]

The shredder is more satisfying to use for me than the revolver despite the revolver being a better choice

[tame lodge]

Me with the tan colored recon

[last parcel]

i don't see color

[oblique totem]

That's a hypothetical, of course. I don't use guns that can be held in one hand.

[past pike]

wait y'all are usin' skins?

i look like a homeless person

[oblique totem]

Wait y'all have skins?

[tame lodge]

Sorry for your loss

Or glad it happened

Not sure how to react to such info

[oblique totem]

Color blindness is not a joking matter. I'd say making jokes about it is a red flag but. You know.

[tame lodge]

[torn root]

.>

comedy knows no bounds

nor cares for the sensitive

a joke about anything can be funny if delivered well 🙂

[crude fiber]

Implying they'd add more weapon skins

[late hatch]

Melks

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpzn9HDUqMc

key points:

• yes they're more or less the same speed to kill, 2 frames is basically nothing, could even be an editing error, I tried start on the exact frame the shot is released (or the exact frame the charge meter began) and then freeze frame on the exact frame the damage number popped up
• uncharged spamming can go down to 2 shot kill because of crits (very possible with gets hot), so that's another benefit in favor of uncharged spam,

and again, knocking down a crusher is just more useful than standing there doing nothing while charging

at the very least the person who said charging is faster is straight up wrong

in a real game anyway, charging and letting go on the exact frame its done charging is way harder than mashing your left click button

so in real play, charging can only be slower through imperfect play

this is on an 80/80/80/80 perfect plasma btw, so its nothing to do with my charge speed stat being low

if you find it more fun, more power to you, just don't argue its better or faster, its not

I find agri revolver more fun than zarona, i dont tell ppl asking for the better weapon that agri is better because i find it more fun

[split sapphire]

I use a lasgun with efficiency and ghost now

[oblique totem]

Damn, brought out the tape measure for this one. Though I guess you had to as anything else would have just been circular.

[tall torrent]

1 charged shot kill is harder to optimize for than 3 uncharged shot kill

because dmg is a bit lower

[bitter turtle]

yeah

i had to focus target for charged 1shot

didnt need it for uncharged

didnt feel like mentioning it but

[somber axle]

all very good points but also charged shot is more funny so ultimately I'm still using charged shots to instagib Crushers in matches on the odd occasion I run plasma and depending on number of crushers hit it could definitely be faster on TTK with a charged shot through their heads

[somber axle]

Oh yeah that's why I like running +Carapace on my Plasma

[bitter turtle]

the cleave does not kill the ones after

its not bromentum

[magic trout]

Which knife is better for stealth build and which perks?

[somber axle]

I very much hate Crushers and want to destroy them with extreme prejudice because they're the one thing quickplay pugs will fold on every single time

[bitter turtle]

yes but

[somber axle]

if I look away for 2 seconds on a crusher the quickplay pugs will be dead

[bitter turtle]

the cleave doesn't actually cleave very much damage through

and if you really want to save your dumb temamates

knockin them down is much better

while you kill them

at the exact same pace

[tall torrent]

I think with survivalist nerf, carapace perk on plasma’s value is like 10x worse now

[somber axle]

depends because if I can charged shot kill a Crusher long before it appears I'll generally do that

[bitter turtle]

with a possibility for even 2x as fast (crits)

[tall torrent]

You’re not even meant to shoot crushers with it anymore

[bitter turtle]

mk6

imo

both are fine

but i prefer the mk6 knife in general now

[somber axle]

Probably yeah but I built my Plasma way long ago and generally don't run Plasma because I prefer Recon

[bitter turtle]

perks arent too strict

just dont get something utterly useless

[somber axle]

And I prioritized Crusher killing on them way higher than anything else

[bitter turtle]

its hard to name exact bps for knife because it depends on crits with a weapon with pretty good crit rate and uncanny stacks

[somber axle]

the vast majority of enemies in this game sorta fall over dead if you look at them

specials/elites are mostly easy to kill

Crushers are the thing people show off knives against

[tall torrent]

You can delete crusher with so many options, plasma is like bottom tier solution now

[somber axle]

3 tap Crusher kill on a knife is both funny and very effective

[hollow ibex]

how come?

[somber axle]

1 tap Power Sword charge shove attack on a Crusher is very effective

People tend to rate how effective a weapon is based off of whether or not it can deal with Crushers and how well it can deal with Crushers

[bitter turtle]

ive grown to greatly prefer the horizontal heavy moveset

and single target can just spam push attack

if you take invigorate

[somber axle]

and that's why I always show off THE GIF of Recon burning a Crusher because if it burns crushers it burns literally everything

[bitter turtle]

you can always get 2 push attacks off on a swap

[somber axle]

(except bosses)

[bitter turtle]

the combo is heavy push push anyway

so you'll always be able to delete a crusher on swap

[tall torrent]

Weakspot (heavy atk, push atk, punch into L0):
2 hit both ragers
3 hit crushers & maulers
4 hit bulwarks (3 if 1 crit weakspot)
2 hit both shotgunners & both gunners
1 hit both flamers, both bombers, trappers & hounds
2 hit mutants (1 crit weakspot kill)

[somber axle]

also good point but if you tell people that agrip revolver is literally not using ever it's also extreme in the opposite direction

[tall torrent]

Damage wise:

Highest: Mk3’s H1, H2 and L0 (after SP) have the same dmg as Mk6’s H3

In-between: Mk3’s PA has the same dmg as Mk6’s H1, H2 and PA

Lowest: Mk6’s L0 (after SP)

[somber axle]

new players do need to know the right info about what is optimal

they also need to know that deviating off the optimal path for something fun isn't bad either

not everyone has to follow meta 100%

and if they follow me they can say they

meta clown

AYYYYYYY

[tall torrent]

I’m telling my friend who started this game a week ago to start playing knife on veteran

Nature is healing

[somber axle]

new bodies for the Atoman grinder

[bitter turtle]

just to show you btw

https://i.gyazo.com/5d9d192ccb05746df2e97cafb30dc51f.jpg

this is how much "cleave damage" you do

on a fully charged shot

lol

[tall torrent]

Plasma only hits 1 crusher at a time, can’t cleave through

[bitter turtle]

its basically worthless

it does

technically

but like

lel

[tall torrent]

Oh blaze away goes through? Interesting

[bitter turtle]

its more or less worthless iether way

not really worth considering

[somber axle]

yeah but like the 1 damage could make a difference

like between 70% damage and 80% damage on a recon

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/87ffb0e0609d98264fedf16c809f970b.jpg

i can get the fully fcharged shot to go through 2

but again

its like

nothing

[somber axle]

though that is good to know

[bitter turtle]

if it was FREE sure

but its not free

[amber cliff]

So what ur saying is

Buff plasma

[somber axle]

in my head placebo effect was telling me it was burning through things way more effectively

[bitter turtle]

since charging shots = you give up the knockdown, potential for 2 shot with gets hot

[somber axle]

Berf Plasma
Buff charged shot
Nerf uncharged shot until you destroy spam mouse 1 meta

[bitter turtle]

i dont value 10 extra damage on perfectly lined up crushers as

well

meaninngful

actually

[somber axle]

Spamming plasma gun feels like the opposite of what the weapon looks like it should do or how it should perform in lore to my understanding

just a very funny meta that developed

[tall torrent]

U don’t have to spam

[bitter turtle]

lol nvm

https://i.gyazo.com/8d8f5fe6667162a666544a9f6e8938d7.jpg

uncharged goes through too

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-issues-gif-13031152103567454559

[somber axle]

yeah they increased the cleave values on it to an absurd degree

[tall torrent]

U can just pull it out for a fast knock on crusher if the situation calls for it

If ur melee can’t stagger crusher

[somber axle]

and it is just a blanket cleave boost

the slightly increased cleave on charged shot is incredibly niche

but ALSO it is extra funny for 1HKO Crushers

and I live for the funny

[amber cliff]

Waiter at waiter more cleave please

[tall torrent]

If u rly wanted 1 shot crusher, play folding shovel

[bitter turtle]

actually

nvm

there is 1

HUGE benefit

to uncharged

uncharged + 2 focus target stacks does not need carapace to 3 shot

charged needs carapace and 2 focus target to 1shot

so uncharged lets you just pick up a different perk straight up

[tall torrent]

Yea it’s higher dmg for breakpoints

[bitter turtle]

yeah

[amber cliff]

If ur so smart

[bitter turtle]

charged literally just bad

[amber cliff]

Make recon good

[bitter turtle]

play mk7

i genuinely believe its an ok weapon

[amber cliff]

[bitter turtle]

ignore onslaught

go full left and middle

kill crushers with your melee

https://i.gyazo.com/96315f793221d94f07b6472132f0b4ef.jpg

i was playing this

lel

above is just standard voc and surv/frag pathing

[tall torrent]

Deadshot recon is insane

[bitter turtle]

its mk7

not 6d

the fire rate is more manageable

[tall torrent]

I’d personally swap deadshot for stam regen delay reduction

I can’t play without that node

[bitter turtle]

its not strictly necessary

deadshot i mean

but i feel like its manageable and gives a big benefit to ammo econ

i wouldnt run deadshot 6d because that sounds like "u need 3x stamina curio" tier

[amber cliff]

Ngl I love doing that

[bitter turtle]

if you ignore onslaught (which i feel is a trap on recon) then 7 is just better than 6d

same base dps and has extra cleave

[amber cliff]

Love my 3x stamina build with my dead shot rev

[bitter turtle]

even headhunter doesnt actually give more avg dmg

[slow spade]

pls give veteran a multi-laser pls

[somber axle]

it's good but only if you put on a clown costume

and when I said good I don't mean like CIAG tier

just good

[bitter turtle]

also i think deadshot lets you leverage recon's ok hipfiring

so you can just hipfire when you dont have the stam to deadshot

[somber axle]

Recon VIIa doesn't even need a clown costume

Recon VIIa is fine

Recon VId is the one that needs the clown costume to perform

Recon II is one I think is awful but I got an ok grey Recon II so I'm going to put her through the places to see how much of a difference it REALLY is in actual matches

assuming Hadron gives me ok perks/blessings

[somber axle]

there are so many ways to kill a Crusher in melee that I'd rather just kill them at range where it's safer tbh

Like Mk III Helbore 1HKO

[amber cliff]

Im slowly falling for the hellbore psyop

[somber axle]

if a Crusher finds a team mate across a room I'm probably not going to save that team mate trying to sprint over to them with a shovel

[amber cliff]

It’s fun being sniper monkey

[somber axle]

but I can just charged shot and watch them drop

https://tenor.com/view/sniper-monkey-monke-sniper-monkey-king-kong-gif-20356254

[amber cliff]

Hehehehe

[somber axle]

we SIMP for the Helbore

[amber cliff]

THATS RIGHT

[somber axle]

plus if I want to kill a Crusher in melee I'll use Chainaxe because I find the rev to be so much more fun

[amber cliff]

Actually I find that I go down a bit more with hell bore due to me investing all into ranged talents. What are you lot using for your hellbore

[amber cliff]

Or don’t be a bitch and headshot them close ranges

Hellbore way

[last parcel]

[somber axle]

I use which ever melee weapon I feel like tbh

[amber cliff]

I do that to ragers

[last parcel]

cqb helbore best helbore

[amber cliff]

Bro it so is

Fuck the bayonet

[somber axle]

That's true Krieg hours and tbh I am a Sneaky Cat not a Krieger so I'm too cautious to wander into melee with a ranged weapon on a Crusher LMFAO

Mk I and Mk II Helbore bayonet is the BEST

better than a lot of melee weapons tbh

[amber cliff]

I was dealing with a mauler and I did have a uncanny knife to deal with it but

It’s just like…my gun would do more damage

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/5e3b157e3fcff00dbc7e435f45b4d112.jpg

[somber axle]

you can literally go a mission never swapping melee on a Helbore I or II and not look dumb for it

[bitter turtle]

5 redirect + 2 focus target stacks

takes about 25%-30% stamina if my crit rng was less lucky probably

i think its manageable

deadshot wise i mean

[amber cliff]

Have you ever kited a plague ogryn while headshotting it with hellbore

[bitter turtle]

its on a maniac enemy too

[somber axle]

Yeah the VIIa is secretly better than most people give it credit for

[bitter turtle]

which should be the worst matchup for it

[amber cliff]

I use Hellbore mk3

[somber axle]

it's just the stigma against Recons making most people turn their nose up at it

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-tom-jones-the-ed-sullivan-show-its-not-unusual-feeling-it-gif-18070699

[amber cliff]

I don’t get it but I like his moves

It’s better than crack

Hellbore dodge charge headshot

Then get downed by the poxbomber

[somber axle]

Helbore Bayonet Charge into a Rager

zero fear

[last parcel]

tally ho lads

[somber axle]

I love how bayonet staggers ragers LMFAO

[last parcel]

blinded by the balls on that kid

[amber cliff]

I like your hud only cause it’s role is play

Most modded huds are sick

And made for sick people

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-padded-room-looney-bin-snow-white-clap-gif-14222452

[amber cliff]

Exactly

[last parcel]

i suffer from many ailments

[bitter turtle]

current bayonet is just a pale imitation of what it once was

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046912126746374274/1180559267460296754/Untitled_video.mov?ex=662d33ff&is=662be27f&hm=5c52c5df73abe0759fd54781fdb54a3a1121e09a92ac497a65eedd1808eb3374&

remember

remember that it once lived

[last parcel]

yeah well guess what

i'm a necrophile

[oblique totem]

Not surprising

[bitter turtle]

leyley icon
is a necrophile
seems possibly appropriate

jk

[amber cliff]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1053823148048527440/1182153034625728532/another_solo_fight.mp4?ex=6633004e&is=66208b4e&hm=9145505d7640a822e80bb2cf50edabe8aa315b0881191a135f96583c21b7e8bd&

You aren’t this fucker

[vernal harbor]

necrophile

[amber cliff]

Look at that

[amber cliff]

ITS EVIL

[oblique totem]

Necrofile

A tool for grinding down dead tissue

[amber cliff]

HAHAHA

SAVED

[oblique totem]

Looks somewhat familiar

[amber cliff]

Then u need to be shot

[oblique totem]

If it helps, I am regularly shot

[oblique totem]

Bocci the glock

[mild turret]

https://tenor.com/view/imperial-guard-cat-warhammer40k-gif-23254825

[radiant chasm]

even nurgle can't heal bayonet wounds

[last parcel]

the jabs are powered by faith

[oblique totem]

Kobeni might be able to actually do some damage

[tame lodge]

Yup

[junior needle]

They are both about even

7a doesn't mandate onslaught for max performance

But it has a lower top end of dps

[bitter turtle]

onslaught is just a trap

imo

the only thing it actually does is enable crusher killing

that's not worth 4 points

[junior needle]

It adds about 200~ dps on a baseline to hard targets on a 6d

Which is not insignificant since it applies to every armored target as opposed to only elites or ogryns

On top of crusher killing as you mentioned

The 6d is a very unusual case though, because its modifiers are extra scuffed across the board

[bitter turtle]

200 dps isnt exactly accurate

that depends largely on the target u are shooting

as an extreme example

its not going to be +200 dps on a gunner

bc they will die before the stacks ever become relevant

[midnight totem]

Crusher killing is worth enabling

[bitter turtle]

its an opportunity cost

[junior needle]

That's why I said hard targets

[bitter turtle]

tbh

that doesnt take into consdieration

[junior needle]

A bit less but say, 100-150 is still pretty decent on a flamer

[bitter turtle]

the fact that dropping onslaught frees up free points

you can then take stuff like redirect fire

and other talents

that will make up the dps and add more utility

[junior needle]

This is true, but it depends on what else you'd be taking

I think onslaught should be more conveniently located

[bitter turtle]

i think its not hard to argue

that there are plenty of things that will give you more value than onslaught

[junior needle]

Generally speaking yes, most guns do not have gigascuffed modifiers

[bitter turtle]

like

example

https://i.gyazo.com/8425a3c1f94809d71a1a1d4d4485a081.jpg

bodyshot dps on a flak rager (onslaught)

https://i.gyazo.com/ebd94406feb9d4660aea046d1cec9fd1.jpg

bodyshot dps (5 redirect fire, no onslaught)

[midnight totem]

I just use onslaught in combination with infernus

[bitter turtle]

one only take 1 pt to reach and buffs your melee

the other takes 4 pts

onslaught is just a trap

[somber axle]

Nurgle is calling to me

he's telling me

use the Mk II

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-darkside-star-wars-evil-innerme-gif-11566441

for the grandfather

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/0f363fbcc8b6f7f0af7fcac85f6c9ee8.png

tree i used btw

dropping the pts to reach onslaught

and putting a single pt in redirect

[somber axle]

this is really weird because it's now the highest ilvl Recon I own

[bitter turtle]

already makes it roughly equal in that example

and i have 3 pts leftover to take anything

[somber axle]

I have like 4 more Recon VIds below

my current fav is a Recon VId with 526 ilvl

[midnight totem]

I have this exact same recon but 6d

[bitter turtle]

also going for headshots only tilts things against onslaught as well

the faster the ttk thae worse onslaught is

[somber axle]

@last parcel the five guys of Vet guns

[bitter turtle]

i went all bodyshot but

[midnight totem]

I see you slaaneshi cultist

Gtfo

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/goodbye-disintegrate-half-life2-hl2-gif-23941439

[tough tiger]

Crushers after they get beamed with a recon for 20 seconds

[somber axle]

ok

Mk II isn't as bad as anyone says

it's fine

LMFAO

[junior needle]

Mmm, you could do a bit better

Also no shock trooper is a nono on recawns

[bitter turtle]

well guess what

if u want shocktrooper

[somber axle]

literally tested it in the Psykanium and it has very good TTK on specials and elites, just not as good at deleting Crushers as the Mk VId

[bitter turtle]

you're gonna start having to drop dmg nodes

kek

because onslaught

that's my point

u can easily take shocktrooper and everything you want if you just accept that you melee crushers

[somber axle]

Recon Mk II is now shifted from D tier to B tier

[junior needle]

Onslaught is a damage node, but it also applies more broadly than ogryn

[somber axle]

only bottom tier weapon now is Shredder Autopistol

[bitter turtle]

ogryn+monstro node is important for melee weapons

[somber axle]

the Mk II's fire rate actually feels weirdly good to use

I can't explain how or why

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-voices-meme-cat-gif-23917781

[somber axle]

it just feels really satisfying in its own way seprate from the VId

[bitter turtle]

also

https://i.gyazo.com/8a70c776574c0ad46f74862200219a23.jpg

this is the build with 7

only 1 crit string proc

also why i think 7 is the better gun now

[junior needle]

"very good ttk"

sub 500 dps baseline

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/99c693127d1ae1c0259ec43ac09db1b8.png

this what i actually would use on recons

[somber axle]

let me record something for you real quick

[inland orchid]

heehe piss beam

[somber axle]

give me a moment

[bitter turtle]

minus deadshot if you still want to use 6d

[junior needle]

Drop the weakspot damage

[bitter turtle]

no

that is for melee weapon

im not buildinng solely for the recon

[junior needle]

Well there's your problem

[bitter turtle]

your melee weapon still matters

why would you build ignoring your melee, that is meme

[junior needle]

Recons need you do build around them because they're so scuffed

[bitter turtle]

idk

i think 7 numbers are fine actually

not amazing

and def worse than iags

but i think its actually ok-ish

[junior needle]

7a can function better if you aren't taking onslaught than 6d

[bitter turtle]

just dont take fucking onslaught

even on 6d i dont think its worth

[junior needle]

Because its modifiers aren't super scuffed

[bitter turtle]

like

u saw

redirect gives the same amnt of damage as onslaught

[junior needle]

So if you aren't taking onslaught anyway, the 7a is better to use

[bitter turtle]

except it costs 3 less points

yeah

that'sm y point

its a trap in general

so if you skip it, then move to 7

[junior needle]

I didn't see anything

What was I supposed to see

[bitter turtle]

#veteran-class message

check here

2 crit strings activated on both guns

[somber axle]

give me a sec to record this Mk II stuff LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

full bodyshot

if it was a headshot it would actually be even worse for onslaught

bc ttk goes down

and onslaught benefits more from long ttks

both were 2 stack focus

since that's the minimum

[junior needle]

Fair, more damage is also a substitute for better modifiers

[bitter turtle]

ya

its just not worth 4 pts

the one thing that it actually does

that redirect does not do

or any other modifier

is kill crusher

but that's my point

just use your fucking melee instead of saccing 3 points

[junior needle]

If it's you gigajuicing it

I can juice a shredder to obliterate a target in the psyk too

That doesn't make it not a bad weapon

[bitter turtle]

that and, if you accept onslaught is bad, then yeah, you go to mk7, which also enables much more comfy usage of deadshot, which improves ammo econ

[junior needle]

What's the point of using the recon if I don't suction all the ammo on the map unnecessarily?

[bitter turtle]

thats kinda what im getting at

lel

[somber axle]

yeah if I can get good TTK on a weapon when I say it has good TTK then it can do good TTK even if you wanna share a vid of a grey version of the weapon putting shots into a mutie every time

LOL

https://gyazo.com/d55023a6ed8e90b66fbfb69e0fab668f

[last parcel]

[somber axle]

don't need to be in melee range hugging anything

[junior needle]

It's to showcase baseline performance outside of niche gigajuiced scenarios

[somber axle]

do you mean like performance when a level 10 gets their first recon or

[junior needle]

It IS simply weaker than other variants dps wise

[somber axle]

because a grey recon is not indicative of actual performance anymore than gigajuice is

[junior needle]

The tree acts like a modifier

And what constitutes a good tree varies considerably based on opinion

[somber axle]

also funny enough the Mk II still kills Crushers

just not as good as the Mk VId

[junior needle]

A baseline comparison allows you to compare weapon irrespective of build setup

[somber axle]

if I swap flak damage to maniac damage I could probably squeeze the TTK on muties too

[junior needle]

Which is why baseline performance is a useful metric

[somber axle]

grey item is not a useful metric imo

weapons are make or break on blessings/perks and talent set ups

if you're running a weapon without what makes them good

you're not showing how the weapon works

[junior needle]

Those are multipliers, sure

[somber axle]

just showing how it doesn't

[junior needle]

But it strongly depends on the weapon

Dumdum for example is a multiplier of baseline performance

Just straight up increases your damage by a certain amount in the same scenario across guns

[somber axle]

I mean like

I could show off how this gun performs

and it wouldn't be representative of how a Mk II performs

just misleading

LOL

Mk II Helbore is a monster

[junior needle]

A weapon can become significantly better if it's particularly reliant on blessings

[somber axle]

using a trash version of it just makes it look like garbage

[junior needle]

Why are you bringing up lowrolls in a discussion about baseline performance?

That has nothing to do with anything

[somber axle]

because grey items as a metric of performance are the same idea in my head

they're not at all a realistic show of a weapon

just a funny way to show off how it can't perform when grey

ok but who is running grey items outside of people doing all grey item runs

perks/blessings/talents are there for a reason

and it's to help compensate for weapon weaknesses while enhancing strengths

[junior needle]

They're a show of how a weapon performs without various crutches which may be unhealthily necessary for it

[somber axle]

people say Chainaxe is slow

ok so like run melee weapon attack speed talents

[junior needle]

I never said baseline is the only useful metric

[somber axle]

suddenly it clears hordes surprisingly effectively

[junior needle]

But it is a useful one

Especially comparing ones in the same line

[somber axle]

but Soldier 69

people use the CIAG

[bitter turtle]

my issue with this tbh

is that it actually isnt very impressive

[somber axle]

Columnus Infantry Autogun / Crutch Infantry Autogun

[bitter turtle]

if you do exec v3 for example

or something

[junior needle]

The mk2 is, objectively, lower dps than the other two models

[bitter turtle]

v3 is not even remotely broken

[somber axle]

if we cared about crutches we'd be asking for them to delete that gun LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

but it deletes things even faster

[somber axle]

no one cares about crutches

[bitter turtle]

i mean would you call v3 overpowered

[somber axle]

Voice of Command is the biggest crutch in the game for a lot of players and people still run it and recommend it

it's a very good ability but it also covers for bad behaviors

[junior needle]

Yeah that video is not particularly impressive with how much juice you're running

[bitter turtle]

not voc

V3

vraks 3

https://i.gyazo.com/60b6d2334dbe19eabab7d931fbc1f460.jpg

like if u do all the same juice

[somber axle]

compare ammo econ on it and TTK on it in all honesty

[bitter turtle]

it literally deletes in 2 shots

[somber axle]

I did all that and didn't need to reload

the fun of Recons is that they get solid TTK on specials/elites while putting out a lengthy barrage

[bitter turtle]

you dont need to reload for v7 either

to do similar

[junior needle]

Clip size/ammo efficiency

[somber axle]

other weapons can and will often outperform them on DPS but you'll be reloading more often

and considering Surv Aura nerfs

[bitter turtle]

ok here

[somber axle]

the average player can benefit way more from ammo efficiency through Shock Trooper when magdumping

[bitter turtle]

let me show you

sec

recording

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/joerg-sprave-features-gif-8755025

[somber axle]

saving ammo is a lot more important depending on team comp too

[junior needle]

Other weapons get immensely more ammo efficiency without needing to stack tons of crit and take shocktrooper, just fyi

[somber axle]

anyway after testing I'd probably rank the Recons like this

[junior needle]

The ciag can get 3x the ammo efficiency at least on a baseline

[somber axle]

VId >= VIIa > II

they're all fine

people just talk about them being bad but they're not shredder autopistol tier

[hollow ibex]

they all need buffs

[junior needle]

They all need substantial buffs

Especially the 2

Actually just a straight up rework

[somber axle]

depends on the target but I'd say not always tbh

[hollow ibex]

i actually really like recon

but they all suck bad rn

[junior needle]

If you do the math on them

You will see

This was for a 6d vs a ciag

Using the stat screen

[somber axle]

if I do the math on them my VId kills a Crusher in 10-13 ammo while my CIAG does it in 25 and this is while the VId has a clip size of 108 while the CIAG has a clip size of 58

it's not really fair to judge the CIAG solely on that either

just that objectively it's better ammo econ for my silly clown antics

Headhunter/Deadshot/Shock Trooper puts me far beyond what is normal for ammo econ on a lot of other guns

it's not Helbore tier

[junior needle]

If you assume deadshot is active at all times while also taking a bunch of juice and exe

[somber axle]

Helbores can still go ammo positive tbh

Helbores are in a league of their own for ammo econ

Recons are still surprisingly effective for conserving ammo in my Damnation matches

[junior needle]

Regular damnation matches are snoozefests

[somber axle]

I mean it basically is for me when pinging specials/elites frequently with Target Down and using Duck and Dive to maintain stam efficiency while alternating ADS and hip-fire to give both the time to bounce stam around

but I am the clown in my jingling shoes and what I do is not easily replicated

[junior needle]

It basically is for everyone

[somber axle]

you must be truly silly to do what I do

[somber axle]

yeah say that to the average player LOL

[junior needle]

I will

[somber axle]

and that's not fair to newer players tbh

[junior needle]

I get eepy sleepy on regular hi ints

[somber axle]

some people are pushing Heresy and slowly working their way into Damnation

Damnation is a fine place to play

and if you get sleepy there idk drink some coffee

or just don't play there

but remember other people do?

[junior needle]

I'm just not playing because the game has become boring and there's no new content

[somber axle]

this is a weird hill and idk where you're standing tbh

[junior needle]

I wish there was an option just to spectate random games

[somber axle]

but tbh the Recons are fine for what they do and excel in a clown's hands

[bitter turtle]

ok so here

[somber axle]

and if they get buffed you may begin to call me Ring Master here and in game because I'll have that Carnival title sooner or later and I'll be running the circus on Recons post-buff LOL

[junior needle]

They really are not competitive in the slightest unless you put a very silly amount of effort into juicing them

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYpLejEIXSI

didnt need to reload

and i even killed the mutant too

in roughly the same amt of time as you

except u skipped mutant

i killed the flamer twice over bc he respawned in front of mutant too

[somber axle]

yeah the Vraks has fantastic TTK but let me reiterate ammo

you're edging reload

[bitter turtle]

i didnt reload though

[somber axle]

you didn't reload, but you will need to

[bitter turtle]

plus

if u skipped mutant

[somber axle]

meanwhile Mk II is sitting on half ammo left

[junior needle]

Which itself is indicative of not being fine if you need to put in a ton more effort for your results

[bitter turtle]

of course you will have more ammo

u skipped

the tankiest target

in that set

lul

[somber axle]

yeah I can shoot the mutie took

one sec lemme show ammo use and TTK on mutie for comparison

I use gyazo replay and it has a very set 7 sec cap

so trying to shoot the room is tricky on recordings

[junior needle]

I'm not sure which is less ammo efficient with shock trooper between laspistols and recons

But laspistols can get very silly dps

[somber axle]

I'll also stand near the center so not melee range hugging to show damage at a distance

[junior needle]

Pretty sure ilas and helbore are both noticeably more ammo efficient than either

[somber axle]

going to share ammo econ/TTK with the Mk II Recon on a mutie using my silly juiced set up vs shooting without tag bonus or exe stance for comparison

one sec while I record both

https://gyazo.com/fcd4cac9c0242069e5a764f8530259a9

[bitter turtle]

yes

[somber axle]

first with super juice showing it kills mutie with good DPS/TTK on my weird clown build with 99 ammo remaining

and now

[bitter turtle]

that would add 3 seconds to your ttk

[somber axle]

without the Focus Target stacks or Exe Stance

https://gyazo.com/2789e82e7db78f915401d5f2494b8393

it takes more ammo and is muuuuch slower on TTK

keep in mind that this is with a weapon without maniac damage

[bitter turtle]

my point isnt good ro bad btw

im just saying

u can make anything

[somber axle]

because I do not consider muties to be threats and tend to whip out melee on them

[bitter turtle]

look good

with all that shit

[somber axle]

not Shredder and I've tried LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

v3 is a pretty just "ok" gun

[somber axle]

I really, really want to love Shredder

it just can't be juiced into being ok

not even GOOD

I can't juice it into feeling ok

it literally can only do two things

Maniac damage for shredding ragers

Suppression

das it

you'll just be burning ammo to do very little with the Shredder on anything else

there's a reason the Recons have a funny following even after the nerfs

but you'll never see anyone run Shredders

(autopistols)

[junior needle]

But with my clown build I can juice it into feeling ok subjectively to me

Therefore shredder good

[somber axle]

ok show me a gif

until then

I'll show you mine

[junior needle]

Hold on, I haven't updated my mods

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7s7DvNUecw&feature=youtu.be

clearly u didnt try hard enough

considering it was faster than both of our clips

[somber axle]

ok that's really funny LMFAO

[junior needle]

4000 dps

[bitter turtle]

and required less aiming

i might add

[somber axle]

hand me my clown shoes

[junior needle]

WOAW

[somber axle]

idk how to spell your name but I'll eat my foot on that one

LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

like i literally just sprayed

like a dumbass

the v3 i had to do a few takes

[junior needle]

Truly goated gun

[bitter turtle]

bc i had to hit heads

[junior needle]

Shredder is super good, no buffs needed

[somber axle]

Shredder Autopistol is truly the best melee weapon in the game

just for this I'm going to run Shredder Autopistol in games now

and it might eat through ammo

but I am a clown so I'll make it work

new tier list is nothing is D tier or unuseable trash

every gun is actually fine

mileage varies depending on how much you need to lean on crutch builds or crutch weapons

Recon VId needs a crutch build

(though idk if anyone would call it a crutch build without VoC)

[bitter turtle]

voc isnt a crutch

its just overpowered

[somber axle]

yeah? that's a crutch though

[bitter turtle]

not to be a semantics UM AKSHUALLY guy

nah

crutch means something very specific

[somber axle]

OP and lets people use it as a crutch for bad behaviors

it can carry them

[bitter turtle]

crutch is something that makes bad players better

and good players worse

[somber axle]

yeah?

[bitter turtle]

thats where the term comes from

[somber axle]

that's what VoC is

[bitter turtle]

like

[somber axle]

objectively

[bitter turtle]

if you have good legs

a crutch gets in your way

[somber axle]

it's good in the hands of good players and bad players

[bitter turtle]

no

it needs to make good players WORSE

[somber axle]

but it carries bad players

[bitter turtle]

for it to be a crutch

[somber axle]

huh??

[bitter turtle]

yes

like for example

[somber axle]

I've never seen anyone define a crutch as hamstrining a good player before

[bitter turtle]

do you play fighting games

[somber axle]

no

[bitter turtle]

uhh

let me think of othe rexamples

[somber axle]

my brother was into Tekken, Street Fighter, etc.

[bitter turtle]

but like if you dont believe me

that's why its called a crutch

like think about it

[somber axle]

I was not

[bitter turtle]

if u have bad legs

crutches help you walk right?

[amber cliff]

U need one

[bitter turtle]

but if you have good legs

[amber cliff]

If you have working elgs

[bitter turtle]

the crutch just gets in your way

[somber axle]

that does make sense but I've never thought about it that way

[amber cliff]

Worse

[bitter turtle]

thats where the term comes from at least

i know

ppl nowadays

sometimes just use it as shorthand for "overpowered"

but i am annoying about semantics

[somber axle]

so you're right but my previous understanding of a crutch is that it props up a bad player's behaviors and lets them continue to do those behaviors

remove the crutch and they fall over

if you remove VoC a lot of people suddenly will struggle hard in Heresy and Damnation

it enables a lot of bad behaviors

[bitter turtle]

like uh

do you play tf2

maybe

that can be a good example

[somber axle]

I used to yeah

[bitter turtle]

so

machina is like a crutch weapon

[somber axle]

I haven't played in a while but I remember spycrabs and lime green scunts and sniper bots

[bitter turtle]

because a bad player bodyshotting full charge

with sniper

gets better with it

but a good player loses the ability to noscope and they dont bodyshot or fully charge anyway

so it just makes them worse

[oblique totem]

Tips for snipers: Don't chase your targets

[somber axle]

ok that makes sense

you have updated a clown's gaming dictionary thank you

[radiant chasm]

orange3x 100% crits play sydney sleeper

[bitter turtle]

actually

[somber axle]

this is not like mean-spirited or anything I am taking this education to heart but then idk what to call VoC

[bitter turtle]

sydney is an even better example lol

[radiant chasm]

and pissing off the other team

[bitter turtle]

yeah

good player gets worse with sydney bc no headshots

[radiant chasm]

sydney is a proper support weapon now tho

[bitter turtle]

bad player gets better because faster charge to bodyshot

[radiant chasm]

it wants to headshot now

[bitter turtle]

o

damn

ok i havent played tf2 in ages idk

[radiant chasm]

it got a rework like, a few years back

now it's basically a ranged jarate explosion on headshot

[somber axle]

I should go back and play TF2

https://tenor.com/view/naowgh-gif-20149117

[radiant chasm]

and the body shot damage was nerfed

[bitter turtle]

its just too(?) strong

honestly