u could do flak/manic but then flak is doing nothing
#veteran-class
bitter turtle
idk if anything i think u are taking the piss with me
and im putting all this effort in testing shit but being trolled
dusky flare
I didn't suggest you to actually take unyielding, i used it to demonstrate the actual process of optimisation itself. Mainly responding to the message where the person thought there was nothing left to squeeze.
tall torrent
I get what he’s saying, no true best optimization
Then maniac + elite is second best and there’s no dethroning that
There, happy compromise
dusky flare
5% crit, 0.2 seconds faster kill, if it's all possible, why settle for mediocrity? it's about hte attitude not the specific numbers in the game.
i never critiqued your perk setup
bitter turtle
5% crit, 0.2 seconds faster kill, if it's all possible, why settle for mediocrit...
well i explained why, multiple rager is a very real scenario, they fan out in a pattern where u cant hit two heads easily
dusky flare
it's just the process of optimisation itself
bitter turtle
putting 5% crit is much more minor than opening up a new avenue of attacking
u simply lack the possibility to even consider killing 2 rager at once with 5% crit
but w/e i just don't really understand ig 🤷♀️
dusky flare
I agree, it's a good bp to hit
junior needle
dusky flare
yapping away 🗣🗣🗣
void rampart
speaking of revolvers as i been watching chat the entire time, saveable or nah?
junior needle
That's uh
dusky flare
speaking of revolvers as i been watching chat the entire time, saveable or nah?
fuck no
junior needle
Pretty bad for a 2a
If you wanted to go WS then crucian is good for that but if you aren't going WS then crucian is bad
void rampart
junior needle
4/4 scuffed for normal, 3/4 scuffed for WS route
Oh yeah, I didn't even look at the stats
bitter turtle
66 damage too
junior needle
Don't wanna dump damage either
tall torrent
speaking of revolvers as i been watching chat the entire time, saveable or nah?
Harvest crucian roulette
void rampart
into the harvester it goes
junior needle
Agree
tall torrent
I see magnifying glass and it’s not top tier blessing I just harvest
wanton dawn
into the harvester it goes
void rampart
technically my highest rated weapon and its got some groxshit on it
bitter turtle
oh yeah
void rampart
I have most for the guns I care most for
bitter turtle
i found one
one more use
for serrated blades
if the game refuses to give you bloodletter IV
you can pretend you have it with bloodletter III + serrated
tall torrent
Save that 1 point for smth else then
bitter turtle
i have to go there anyway because infiltrate
tall torrent
Serrated blade does turn bloodletter IV into bloodletter V so eh whatever
wanton dawn
i have to go there anyway because infiltrate
That's a "you" problem
bitter turtle
omg true
void rampart
@bitter turtle I think it was you that got me to give shredders another go and I finally had my I get it now moment
bitter turtle
serrated blade secretly strong!?
tier V blessings 
and 
glad you got good value out of them
void rampart
4 crushers, trapper and plague ogryn all bunched up and the shredders saved my ass and took care of everything
bitter turtle
yeah its like what i meant, in that situation, does krak actually save you? might take out 1 or 2, but you still have another 2 and a trapper on your ass
throw a frag and you get to run away scot free
void rampart
true I finally saw the light, I'll be bringing them more often
tall torrent
HB1 & HB2 finished for document
wanton dawn
Anyway yeah, frags usually better or at least as good as kraks with one exception
BoN
Kraks trivialize BoN
void rampart
is it worth running tinkerer to upgrade them or do they do fine without
wanton dawn
Do not need with frags
bitter turtle
its a significant upgrade, but i also wouldnt spend 2 points if its out of the way
the radius increase is really nice, but 2 points is a big ask
bitter turtle
thy nades be swift 😔
void rampart
Mk 2 TAxe, any good?
elder fiber
its a taxe so it's not a hidden gem, just try it and see if you like it
elder fiber
they're "fine" on melee vet
void rampart
yea that's what I was thinking, just never brought them onto another class
bitter turtle
it sonly for real samurai
void rampart
what about Mk 2 CAxe, I hear a lot of good things about it
shadow dagger
whole team was tunnel visioned on assassination boss and i had to deal with six snipers with a shotgun and no spread reduction talents
and nobody noticed until two people went down
very cool team
wanton dawn
what about Mk 2 CAxe, I hear a lot of good things about it
Worst weapon to craft
wanton dawn
Combat axe are, by far, the hardest weapon to reach all bp
void rampart
Worst weapon to craft
I have a decent one (except my vet has to drag it across the floor) but idk what else to throw on it
shadow dagger
oh yeah whats even the functional difference between antax and rashad caxe
wanton dawn
Rashad is faster
wanton dawn
I have a decent one (except my vet has to drag it across the floor) but idk what...
Replace sprint by unarmored
Then idk. Need to check dreg bruiser os
Rashad need to os all horde
shadow dagger
but antax... got more damage or armor pen?
wanton dawn
On heashot
agile forge
oh yeah whats even the functional difference between antax and rashad caxe
Rashad has finesse stat which makes it better once you're 30
shadow dagger
whats the tradeoff
agile forge
Antax has the Cleave Targets stat which iirc does nothing if you have bromentum triggering
shadow dagger
Rashad has finesse stat which makes it better once you're 30
what does this mean
agile forge
what does this mean
High finesse stat = faster swings, better crit and weakspot multipliers iirc
but if you have a shitty Rashad then the finesse stat will be low and it'll be worse
agile forge
because it's easier to have high stats at 30
Antax used to be the better one a long time ago because Rashad struggled a lot with hitting heads because of how it was programmed
if a swing would go through a weakspot and another body part, the game used to consider it a body hit
and a lot of people still read guides written way back then and still try to roll Antaxes instead of Rashads lol
bitter turtle
I have a decent one (except my vet has to drag it across the floor) but idk what...
sadly
that one is not decent
well
actually its usable at least
you just need to swap out sprint -> unarmored
thrust -> headtaker
unyielding is not ideal though
void rampart
I'll give it a try and roll for a better one afterwards
bitter turtle
yeah
see if you like it
before you commit to rolling a great one
just make sure you can hit the oneshot breakpoint on dreg fighters
those helmted trash enemies
void rampart
That was an Emperors drop one so I was just curious if it was fixable
bitter turtle
the point of buildilng rashad the way you do it is so you can horde clear by oneshotting them in the head -> BM lets you spread that damage to 3 other enemies
so every light swing does 4 kills
that combined with pretty good boss damage and armor damage means its got something for every situation
also
the heavy attacks on rashad
actually do LESS damage to maniacs
than the lights
so make sure when you're fighting dreg rager/flamers/mutants
you spam lights
not heavies
void rampart
Must be accidentally hitting them with the squeaky side
frank ether
actually do LESS damage to maniacs
punishing you for not turning your brain off
average rashad moment
wanton dawn
punishing you for not turning your brain off
On*
frank ether
On*
no, no, keep it off
just run at things and spam lights 
works for everything minus crusher
elder fiber
yes
frank ether
lmao
frank basin
Am true rashad player
Only me a chainaxe dude
languid terrace
Finally tried crafting a bolter. Might not be the best, but it should work for now.
junior needle
You probably want to swap that shattering for surgical
odd sparrow
Finally tried crafting a bolter. Might not be the best, but it should work for n...
should maybee change shattering to surgical, rending/brittleness only increases damage against crushers by a pretty small amount
junior needle
Bolter functions very much like a dmr now
languid terrace
Should I remove Surgical from this one and put it in my previous bolter, or modify the perk of this one instead?
dusky flare
Surgical will be better if they ever fix the ads bolter jank. The whole resetting ads part defeats the purpose of surgical
lucid herald
Which of the chainaxes is better? Also how good is the thunderous blessing?
junior needle
Should I remove Surgical from this one and put it in my previous bolter, or modi...
You could do better on the secondary stats but those are prime blessings so you'd just have to do the perks. There's a bigger gap between tiers of surgical than pinning fire if you had to choose one to harvest.
Apparently you want flak/maniac
jaunty sphinx
this is the most frustrating stat roll I think ive ever gotten. It feels like it was made to piss me off.
junior needle
this is the most frustrating stat roll I think ive ever gotten. It feels like it...
It feels like it was made to piss me off.
Darktide crafting in a nutshell.
wanton dawn
Should I remove Surgical from this one and put it in my previous bolter, or modi...
Modify perks. Those are bis blessing this patch and stats are good enough
lyric dock
this is the most frustrating stat roll I think ive ever gotten. It feels like it...
And in before it gets god rolls in perks and blessings 
jaunty sphinx
I'm smothering this thing in the crib before I invest into this damnable thermonuclear brick
lyric dock
If only there was way to use a resource most of us have over 10k+ on and has basically no use where we can use said resources to boost the base stats of a weapon
jaunty sphinx
ah. complaining about the crafting system works I see.
lyric dock
The rare Hadron being nice
jaunty sphinx
wasnt too mean to my meager funds either
dire olive
Gotta make sure you don't become numb to the bricks 
A good roll every now and then keeps your disappointment fresh
And your tears salty
wanton dawn
Bricks by bricks you build an house
zealous wyvern
hadron doesnt brick you on purpose
ts just that we have very specific expectations of gear and the machine spirit offers many different blessings
jaunty sphinx
Idk why but I have decent luck
trim hemlock
Imperium's dullest shank from a mission reward
fresh dome
lyric dock
Oof on sustained fire
fresh dome
why +40% damage to the charge shot is nice
lyric dock
Hellbore 3 is the slowest of trio of Hellbores
It hits like a god damn truck
But takes forever and half to cahrge it
fresh dome
its slower to charge but not by alot
But it is more of a elite boss killer
But yea a salvo is when you hold the trigger until you release the trigger so sustain fire on a helbore applies to the charge damage twice
lyric dock
Oh god I forgot slow the stab is with MK 3
junior needle
It's more like a plasma gun if you actually had to use the charge to do damage
jaunty sphinx
I used to play mark vet where id frequently charge my shots
the build felt good because it let me one shot crushers
winter grove
Bolter have grown on me
junior needle
There's very few things you'd actually need to charge for with the right setup
winter grove
Who knew that using it like a DMR and not mindlessly magdumping it would give me a better experience with it
fresh dome
1 shot a mauler long range 😄
winter grove
And apparently standard shovel is a good synergy for it
And I wouldn't wish for more
jaunty sphinx
There's very few things you'd actually need to charge for with the right setup
yeah I took my new plasma into a mael since I havent used plasma in awhile and I just kind of held down right click w the full auto mod (I have it for accessibility cause I have nerve damage in my right hand)
it was just brainless LOL
yall were right
voice of command then anything else you want
winter grove
yall were right
Which is why I prefer bolter to plasma
fresh dome
I find Born leader very strong with a inspirring barrage weapon
winter grove
I liek it https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1046912126746374274/120307409...
Unyielding/Maniac are good perks with it right?
wanton dawn
Unyielding/Maniac are good perks with it right?
I would not know am stuck with elite dmg
winter grove
Dam
languid terrace
Which perks should I get for bolter?
jaunty sphinx
There's a weapons guide in the pinned
lyric dock
I should take this out again some day
junior needle
But yea a salvo is when you hold the trigger until you release the trigger so su...
It's apparently not necessarily until you release the trigger but when your recoil resets. There seems to be some strangeness with helbore charging too, let me share a clip.
jaunty sphinx
Crushers are carapace
wanton dawn
I would not take carapace on bolter. It is not "good" anti-crusher weapon
winter grove
That's carapace
junior needle
Sus fire is applying to shots 2/3/4 instead of 3/4, but also despite a pause in firing my salvo didn't reset. I assume there's a longer period for helbores where the salvo doesn't stop.
jaunty sphinx
All good
winter grove
I would not take carapace on bolter. It is not "good" anti-crusher weapon
Unyielding Maniac then
Bolter has zero problems with flak
wanton dawn
Unyielding for reaper ? Maybe
wanton dawn
Bolter already crap on bulwark
wanton dawn
Cuz you remove shield, making them a non threat
wanton dawn
As for boss, it is mostly about ammo eco. Bolter has trouble against meaty target, it prefers ranged elite and special
junior needle
There's a few competitors for that
Ciag is generally considered the best automatic, properly built plasma the best single shot
winter grove
I should try running unyielding flak on bolter
wanton dawn
Plasma is prob easiest to build around for how efficient it is
junior needle
Ciag is very simple to build
winter grove
Plasma is a no-brainer to use
It's turns darktide from an fps to a point and click adventure
junior needle
Plasma requires more of an understanding of breakpoints and how to play though with the long reload
Ciag is boolet hose and can be used gray and talentless
jaunty sphinx
Columnus Infantry (not Braced) Autogun is the best all rounder that vet has so it's a good starting point
Plasma is v fun
Nah
timid otter
Honestly plasma is a pretty complicated weapon even if it is broken
junior needle
It can be harder to obtain one with good stats with what you want on it
timid otter
It has some interesting ways its stats interacts with everything else
junior needle
Ciag is largely idiot proof to make
winter grove
Honestly plasma is a pretty complicated weapon even if it is broken
Oh I have a question
timid otter
Ex charge rate actually affects the heat rate, fire rate of the weapon.
wanton dawn
Columnus Infantry (not Braced) Autogun is the best all rounder that vet has so i...
Plasma is the best all-rounder simply cuz it can be brough on ALL maelstrom modifier with little to no adjustment. Including no ammo
jaunty sphinx
Honestly plasma is a pretty complicated weapon even if it is broken
Oh absolutely. It would be brilliantly designed if it was just weaker
winter grove
Since I got unlucky on some bolter shenanigans, should I grab flak or maniac alongside of unyielding?
timid otter
Flak is basically nessecary
winter grove
Oh
wanton dawn
I would not bring ciag on no ammo ever
winter grove
Plasma is the best all-rounder simply cuz it can be brough on ALL maelstrom modi...
Lasguns shine on no ammo, because they have MASSIVE ammo pools
wanton dawn
Lasguns shine on no ammo, because they have MASSIVE ammo pools
Plasma shines brighter cuz they kill stuff
junior needle
Bolter is not nearly as good right now and harder to use
junior needle
Don't trust youtubers when it comes to what's good in this game
jaunty sphinx
Yeah.
junior needle
A lot of them are shitters
wanton dawn
I have a "standard" ranged plasma talent tree. 2s
fresh dome
junior needle
Yes. Auric maelstroms aren't necessarily hard depending on the modifiers.
timid otter
Best youtubers so far ive seen are ryken, telopots
junior needle
They can be easier than a hi5stg
Not saying they are all bad or say incorrect things
but most of them do
wanton dawn
Here. You have 1 free points
winter grove
Volley fire maybe?
zealous wyvern
youtubers arent always right. but id recommend applying that logic to discord users too
jaunty sphinx
Field improv. Thank me later.
zealous wyvern
in fact discord users dont even have the small proof of competence a 5mae video gives
timid otter
I think the major differnence is that youtubers have more of an incentive to farm content, while discord users dont.
wanton dawn
Nah: if i do ppl will argue about it
timid otter
Ex youtubers will willingly exaggerate just to make an extra video.
zealous wyvern
you are definitely underestimating the sheer confidence of ppl on discord, just like me rn telling you how it is without getting views for it
winter grove
I think the major differnence is that youtubers have more of an incentive to far...
Discord users don't have a reason to lie
wanton dawn
I put it in twin for no ammo maelstrom if you wanna know
zealous wyvern
ppl literally just love telling others what to do
jaunty sphinx
Discord users can also just be wrong
zealous wyvern
you dont need views for that
yes
id say youtubers at least let you judge them through footage, even if skewed
junior needle
you are definitely underestimating the sheer confidence of ppl on discord, just ...
Well there's a difference between knowingly choosing to misrepresent something vs being very confident about something you're wrong about
winter grove
You should listen to Wilmer though
zealous wyvern
Well there's a difference between knowingly choosing to misrepresent something v...
yes
but it both has the same result
jaunty sphinx
Check pins for the weapon primer
timid otter
You should listen to Wilmer though
Honestly no
Theres literary a disclaimer before the entire weapon section.
junior needle
You should listen to Wilmer though
He recommended lacerate as a blessing one time
Shunned
jaunty sphinx
I'm never wrong about anything ever
wanton dawn
Get hot, blaze. Then perk i have carapace locked but you can have maniac, flak, elite... depending on bp
junior needle
SHUNNED
timid otter
You have to realize there is like 450 differnent combinations of damage profiles for every melee weapon in the game
That is too much data for one person to be right about.
wanton dawn
I put flak or maniac or unyielding depending on maelstrom mod
timid otter
And that is accounting for one single armor type aswell
wanton dawn
I have a lock from hadron, cannot change 
zealous wyvern
saying discord randoms with no credentials are more trustworthy than youtubers seems very d7mb to me
however if a committed community seems to verify the persons ability or they show footage, id probs say they are more trustworthy than a youtuber. but the same can be true for youtubers
jaunty sphinx
Pinned messages
wanton dawn
Discord ppl will always tell you how wrong smth is
wanton dawn
Also discord ppl dont get money from view
Just satisfaction of proving smth is wrong
jaunty sphinx
A lot like redditors in that way
wanton dawn
A lot like redditors in that way
No upvote system though
zealous wyvern
Just satisfaction of proving smth is wrong
which is enough for most ppl to insist
just look at arguments or reddit comments
this talk were having is kind of proving my point
wanton dawn
One thing important: do not charge plasma. It is not good atm
zealous wyvern
i dont think anyone here is getting paid
jaunty sphinx
I'm just vibing
zealous wyvern
id like to get paid for my opinions
jaunty sphinx
Trying to help the friendly newb
zealous wyvern
send money to my address ok
wanton dawn
this talk were having is kind of proving my point
I am not reading those arguments though
zealous wyvern
that really doesnt change it
jaunty sphinx
How about we all make some nice breakfast and then come back
wanton dawn
Reddit is a popularity contest at the end of the day
jaunty sphinx
Then you can do that in your kitchen
jaunty sphinx
Not even coffee and toast?
wanton dawn
I am chilling in bed but with medical stuff on both arms and a splitting headache 
jaunty sphinx
Pain.
timid otter
Im just waiting for downloads.
dreamy spade
Is volatile or get hot better?🤔
wanton dawn
Is volatile or get hot better?🤔
Get hot
wanton dawn
What yall think?
Deadshot on plasma is automatic "no"
dreamy spade
Deadshot?
wanton dawn
Other than that, not taking target down on a born leader commitment is underwhelming
And not taking iron will is very bold
dreamy spade
Well the idea is i'm constantly regening toughness so I shouldnt go under 75 anyway
wanton dawn
I posted my reference for ranged plasma a few messages ago. For reference: #veteran-class message
tough tiger
Instead of getting For the E, you could just get Focus target
wanton dawn
Well the idea is i'm constantly regening toughness so I shouldnt go under 75 any...
A single hit from bruiser will bring you under 75%
dreamy spade
The only thing my build is weak on is melee and ambushes
tough tiger
Unarmored damage is just terrible
dreamy spade
because plasma cant 1 shot them
tough tiger
Ok i see why your build sucks now
U dump all your eggs in the anti tank basket
No wonder u die to hordes
The plasma is so strong that its the only anti tank u need
Just swap a krak for a frag
dreamy spade
Unarmored damage is just terrible
tough tiger
Frags can knock over enemies to make space
dreamy spade
U dump all your eggs in the anti tank basket
well I hope my teammates have horde control
tough tiger
Rely on yourself, not your team lmao
U never know what kind of teammates u get
Sometimes u have to be the one that clutches
wanton dawn
In any case, remove deadshot. Take weakspot dmg: it is the only one on the path to elite dmg that is not useless for plasma
dreamy spade
by deadshot do u mean executioner?
wanton dawn
No
wanton dawn
Yes
tough tiger
Weakspot benefits your melee weapon too
dreamy spade
true
tough tiger
And u should always be aiming for the head with your melee
wanton dawn
I wont argue further, already made my points
tiny summit
https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9b79caba-822d-43ea-b6a2-5b8d7a880451/pl...
Here. I even gave you covering fire
Don't worry about the reload speed on plasma. In reality you should only be reloading in between encounters during downtime
But if dropping covering fire that would give FtE and Focus Target stacks
dreamy spade
Don't worry about the reload speed on plasma. In reality you should only be relo...
True, I mainly selected those ones just to get to the next one
Without the boost it is painfully slow though
I honestly cant use power sword for shit
Force swords I'm fine with
wanton dawn
Without the boost it is painfully slow though
Plasma reload is too slow and infrequent to get real value from reload talent. You usually have enough shot in your mag for 2 rooms, need to find some quiet moment to reload or use animation cancelling
severe gale
Don't worry about the reload speed on plasma. In reality you should only be relo...
and you can reload cancel to cut the time in like half
shadow aurora
Destroy it. Do it. Take its blessing
zealous depot
but the gun is nubile
shadow aurora
Nubile?
zealous depot
nubile
shadow aurora
That's an interesting way to describe a gun. Didnt know that word even existed a few moments ago
zealous depot
it hasnt even shot its first heretic
dreamy spade
Plasma reload is too slow and infrequent to get real value from reload talent. Y...
I swapped it for exhilarating takedown, although I have so many toughness regen buffs but, since I have charismatic and born leader, all my teammates get a tonne of toughness replenishment
wanton dawn
I would not know. I dont play born leader
languid terrace
Stat might not be the best, but it should keal. Thanks for the suggestion everyone.
wanton dawn
Stat might not be the best, but it should keal. Thanks for the suggestion everyo...
Being able to switch both perks is a luxury
Just for that it will be hard to find better
tiny summit
but I want the blessing
Uh just swap sustained for surgical
languid terrace
I think that it is good enough, I would prefer to start building the next gun instead of min-maxing the stats on the gun.
lyric dock
Better to roll with what you got instead of hitting the slot machine again for a "Better" version than you got currently
zealous depot
its not that I want to min max
Ive been grinding for onslaught 4 for like 2 months
languid terrace
Just wait for it to show up on limited store. Less stressful that way.
wanton dawn
New vet skin looks dope
dreamy spade
Look at the perks at the bottom
lyric dock
Just normal Plasma Vet gameplay
quartz portal
I say keep that one; Those are good rolls; Nothing below 70 is really good.
lyric dock
Best to keep it and wait for Melk to have one in his shop
Or try your best to get it from the random ones that roll into Brunt's shop
quartz portal
Look at the perks at the bottom
What I've learned with the mark 7 shovel is that Limbsplitter 4 will one shot mutants with a heavy attack even without a weakspot hit or crit.
lyric dock
Need to get around building one of the new shovels for Vet
dreamy spade
mark 7 is my favorite because the special attack is very useful against single targets and the heavy swing is across
tiny summit
New vet skin looks dope <:KEKW_ogryn:1022077188322906163>
I only like the helmet
wanton dawn
I only like the helmet
I like the google
tiny summit
Seeing 40k armor and ar15 looks wrong
thin flame
am I weird for spamming my bayonet as my primary DPS option on assassination bosses
wanton dawn
am I weird for spamming my bayonet as my primary DPS option on assassination bos...
No
Unless you use the mk3
Then you are deranged
tiny summit
am I weird for spamming my bayonet as my primary DPS option on assassination bos...
No
tiny summit
When a monstrosity spawns unless there's elites/specials to shoot, I'm gonna just spam bayonet
thin flame
bayonet's so freakin good, i use the MK1 and it's becoming my reason to play veteran
slow spade
Who need block push when you have pisshield
exactly c:
umbral scaffold
Still no Armageddon or Krieg skin in shop?
wanton dawn
bayonet's so freakin good, i use the MK1 and it's becoming my reason to play vet...
Wanna try the full melee hb ?
slow spade
Still no Armageddon or Krieg skin in shop?
nope
thin flame
i have heard horror stories of the MK3 bayonet so i think im good with mk1
wanton dawn
I have a dedicated melee build for hb
slow spade
I personally prefer the MK3 over the others
terse idol
slow spade
but the bayonet is nowhere near the performance
thin flame
melee vet? That sounds hilarious
umbral scaffold
Melee build?
wanton dawn
You os all horde, can os all special with keystone buff (mutie need to be marked) and 2-3 hit most elite. Need anti carapace for primary
umbral scaffold
So it goes well with bayonet
Thank you, i will use it
Would you mind to show me your weapon stats and bonuses, please
wanton dawn
Need to check my history i cant access my account atm
umbral scaffold
wanton dawn
umbral scaffold
Mk I? Don't see that used often
wanton dawn
Probably better than mk2 for pure melee cuz you rarely shoot so better have moar dmg i guess for those pesky gunner/sniper
Rather than rof
But it took the one i had in my stash. With the best stats
umbral scaffold
I see, you don't often using melee weapon with this build i assume
umbral scaffold
But perks and blessing would be same on Mk II, correct?
wanton dawn
Guess so
umbral scaffold
Thanks bro
wanton dawn
I can still kill a spawn in less than 20s with that baby rn
umbral scaffold
It seems like legit build for Krieg cosplay tbh
umbral scaffold
How to do that
wanton dawn
Its a mod
umbral scaffold
Aaah, i see
tall torrent
But perks and blessing would be same on Mk II, correct?
Perks no, blessings yes
For mk2 you want unarmored + maniac, onslaught + surgical
Mk1 perks are pretty flexible, can go flak/elite/maniac
umbral scaffold
Why is it always so complex
wanton dawn
Perks no, blessings yes
Its bayonet build
lucid pasture
I'm surprised Ulgo knows the meaning of the word "Canonically"
hollow ibex
(he thinks it's the same meaning as cannon)
dreamy spade
Does "for the emperor" repeat with "relentless"
odd sparrow
relentless?
oh
no
pretty sure for the emperor activates when you use your ability(or exit steath) and doesnt interact with the reset from relentless in anyway
but you could test it in the meatgrinder if you wanna be sure
agile forge
Why is it always so complex
Breakpoints baby
thin flame
alrighty, hit 30 on vet so i wanna get a proper helbore, what's the dumpstat for the mk1?
agile forge
Ain't they a bugger
somber lagoon
Omnissiah bless this holy weapon
thin flame
it ain't bad, i can replace sustained fire and unarmoured with maniac
full char--
okee
winter grove
Omnissiah bless this holy weapon
Omnissiah grants you poxwalker dmg and sprint efficiency
thin flame
okay, it can't one-shot dreg gunners without my keystone
it can two-tap reapers on headshot
tall torrent
okay, it can't one-shot dreg gunners without my keystone
Use left tree +15% elite dmg
Maybe longshot too
tame lodge
attack pttern
thin flame
yeah im trying out the 7 cuz i like the heavy sweeping
reminds me of the mkv shovel on ogryn
tall torrent
whats the difference between the mk3 and mk7 munitorium shovels?
mk7 has an additional single target combo of push atk > L3 > L4 in addition to the folded strikedown, but the folded strikedown itself is a lot slower
thin flame
im digging the mk7l, though my first roll didn't get flak or maniac, so i'll have to sacrifice some damage
rugged garnet
thin flame
it folds and that's an immediate love for me as a latrine shovel ogryn
analog mural
Crusher is kinda like a big pipe
bitter turtle
alrighty, hit 30 on vet so i wanna get a proper helbore, what's the dumpstat for...
Stability and ammo
Stability is 100 percent pointless, ammo isn't too important since you aren't gonna run dry
bitter turtle
whats the difference between the mk3 and mk7 munitorium shovels?
7 has horizontal sweeps
3 has a faster folding special attack
nimble kayak
Been wondering. Is there a way to make a primarily ranged Veteran that DOESN'T suck on damnation? I know fully commiting to range is bad.
but like... primarily range that doesn't suck up close? Is that a thing?
serene bough
Yeah a hybrid of commando and marksman perks w/ a fast firing rifle and a knife
Make sure to bring uncanny for knife so you can delete armor
bitter turtle
V7 is also mostly shooty
tiny summit
Been wondering. Is there a way to make a primarily ranged Veteran that DOESN'T s...
Yea. Good positioning. I primarily run Exe
bitter turtle
I only take melee out when things interrupt my shooty
But if you literally want to only shoot
Ciag/knife
odd sparrow
Been wondering. Is there a way to make a primarily ranged Veteran that DOESN'T s...
Columnus mk V + Power sword mk VI is my personal favorite for a ADS and brrrrt build. Power sword handles anything in melee if need be, particularly crushers. While columnus murders anything less than ogryn sized in less than half a second with deadshot active
raw steppe
Realistically the only weapons that can do that are brauto and helbore
Most other weapons will run dry if you want to shoot hordes with them
agile forge
Most Veterans are long range focused tbh
But even a long range build needs to have some kind of efficient horde clear
Just take some kind of decent melee. Or take a Mk I or II hellbore and just take an anti-carapace melee
winter grove
Most other weapons will run dry if you want to shoot hordes with them
MG4 can't run dry I checked
brisk oxide
what does everyone think about the new smokes?
elder fiber
🚽
elder fiber
They're niche and I've seen snipers fire through them so sometimes they still don't work within their niche lol
brisk oxide
oh really? i haven't had that happen yet. would probably immediately swap them off if i did
so far they've just been like a dollar store psyker shield
elder fiber
Idk if its consistent after last patch, only rarely see them and rn I don't run them on any builds
brisk oxide
i didn't use them before the patch because of how much hate they got
so no way to compare
elder fiber
Use w/e you want babe fuck tha haters
brisk oxide
so true
tiny summit
what does everyone think about the new smokes?
Niche and isn't dmg so no one cares. It is basically anti-ranged cover. So a psyker shield w/o the toughness regen inside it. If you throw one on top of the team during a hound wave, the dogs don't know what to do when everyone is inside. They kinda just run around. You can essentially make a melee only most pit without having to worry about shooters or snipers
Reapers and gunners basically stop and either run into the smoke or they just stand around idle
frank ether
I don't think about the new smokes
brisk oxide
It sounds good tbh
frank ether
because if I'm using them it means I'm not thinking
brisk oxide
The other grenades aren’t providing that much delta to me if I’m running plasma
bitter turtle
what does everyone think about the new smokes?
i think they're ok tbh
but
shredder frags are so good
its hard to give them up
and really? frag + plasma is a classic
tiny summit
Stockpile and demo team frags. Why wouldn't I drop 2 frags every encounter?
bitter turtle
well
if ur just trying to make space with a bunch of crushers in your face
iu would just throw 1 tbf
not like the bleed does much ot them
brisk oxide
are you throwing 2
Not really actually
bitter turtle
well
tiny summit
MOAR
bitter turtle
that might be why u find them underwhelming
throwing 2 will kill almost all humanoid enemy
good way to clear a room out
it also knocks down crushers
so u can dispatch them safely while everything else bleed to death
tiny summit
Tinkerer has such a troll placement
bitter turtle
obv more things will bleed to death in that screenshot
brisk oxide
I have used the tech of throwing three and then popping the damage stim to kill crushers with bleed
bitter turtle
i just took the ss mid bleeding so u see how much dmg its doing
lol
lthats pretty meme
i never done that
sounds legit
but its hardly the only situation they good in
tiny summit
Celerity Recon because I hate ammo
bitter turtle
even on ogryn
bulwark/reaper take a fairly significant amoutn from 2x frag
basically only crusher really ignores it lul
but the knockdown is nice
elder fiber
Celerity Recon <:whatthefuck_heresy:1049724444207239168> because I hate ammo
Celerity so you can steal ammo more easily
raw steppe
Throwing 2 hits a lot of breakpoints
For example, it instantly wipes ragers, bulwarks
Throwing 1 usually is for thinning a bruiser horde, confirming a rezz or knocking down crushers
bitter turtle
i dont think 2 can down a bulwark tbf
raw steppe
Bulwarks are unyielding
raw steppe
They take insane amounts of dmg
raw steppe
O
bitter turtle
like its not bad at all dont get me wrong
io dont think it willi wipe them outright tho
raw steppe
If theres a bulwark pack I'll just throw one
raw steppe
Fair enough lol
raw steppe
Yeah if theres a pack of like 6 bulwarks
Usually i can just throw 2 and the pack gets cleaned up
Might not hit the bp to kill from full
bitter turtle
even with unyielding doesnt do it 😔
still
very good amount of damage
i would still chuck 2 on them really
fuck bulwarks
trim steppe
Pretty solid emp gift for once, what should i do to it?
bitter turtle
change devastating strike
trim steppe
DS to wrath, elite to unarmored?
raw steppe
No wrath lol
bitter turtle
can probably do shred/savage sweep/idk
bitter turtle
what bp does maniac give over elite
might be worth just keeping it an dupgrading
rampage
raw steppe
Mainly flak maniac helps against rager pressure
You want the parries to kill as fast as possible
bitter turtle
im pretty sure hte parries 1shot even if u have nothingn
elder fiber
Idk if vet needs maniac for parry 1shot
raw steppe
im pretty sure hte parries 1shot even if u have nothingn
Only if you hit head
bitter turtle
true
raw steppe
Body shots are more likely
bitter turtle
does elite not accomplish
raw steppe
Not sure
elder fiber
Idk you could do multiple things to the dc
raw steppe
But my main concern with it is always ragers
Cuz thats when I need it the most
The other 99% of the time against
Trash doesn't matter
elder fiber
Yeah @trim steppe just mess with it and test shit in modded psykanium
raw steppe
Ye its hard to hit the parry HS under pressure so i run maniac flak for the faster rager kills
But if you can do it consistently
You prob can run unarmored or something else
trim steppe
I'll have to see if I wanna live with t2 ramp and take maniac or double replace blessings
elder fiber
Tbh it'll be p solid either way
tame lodge
what does everyone think about the new smokes?
it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay better now
apart from not having frags/krak, the only downside is that you'll scatter a lot of stalkers around
so check your corners
brisk oxide
interesting. i still need to play with them more but they seem decent so far
late hatch
fuck bulwarks
the most annoying thing about bulwarks is the shield hitbox is trash. get shield hits when visually it is nowhere near covering
odd sparrow
interesting. i still need to play with them more but they seem decent so far
important note is that smokes dont actually block line of sight or anything like that. It just gives players a buff while they are standing in the smoke which prevents ranged enemies from locking on, so always throw it at your feet
brisk oxide
gotcha, yeah that's basically what i always do especially since you get much better visibility inside the smoke
bitter turtle
the most annoying thing about bulwarks is the shield hitbox is trash. get shield...
its basically 180 in front of them is shielded
late hatch
its basically 180 in front of them is shielded
yeah but the model does not even remotely line up with the hitbox. terrible design imo
bitter turtle
ya
not defending it
just saying you have to treat it as a big curved immunity hitbox in front of them lel
i just wait for them to attack
unless i actually got the jump behind
tall torrent
They're niche and I've seen snipers fire through them so sometimes they still do...
You need to be inside smoke to be concealed
tame lodge
there's an icon that tells you if you're inside the smoke
also
throwing at your feet is okay
but you can get creative with it
tall torrent
That’s how it’s meant to be used lol
You can throw it at ur teammates who’re far away
Throwing it at ranged enemies doesn’t work very well
tall torrent
Not being able to see them clearly after they leave cover
tall torrent
Don’t tell me you run exe stance with smoke
tame lodge
I do, this game allows a lot of builds and play style
tall torrent
Ok u do u
tame lodge
fine by me
but yeah
Smokes are more than just defense
get jiggy with it
throw them at your feet, in front of the enemies, at the enemies
read the situation though
tiny summit
At the point we're and the difficulty of the game "fuck it, we ball". Smokes, Fire Team, Exe Recon just because
rigid pilot
Smoke and exestance has natural synergy because yellow
tame lodge
Smoke and exestance has natural synergy because yellow <:KEKW_ogryn:102207718832...
I mean, as VoC you can keep your team from getting shot, as melee you can get closer to the enemies
yadda yadda
strange fable
Hit 30 on my vet last night so haven't gotten into rolling weaps to far but this is how i've made out so far. How are my current weaps lookin?
I would like to find a plasma gun with more dmge
Which stat do you typically want as the lowest stat for the plasma?
hoary horizon
Ulgo want plasma! But too hard too recharge not know how
bitter turtle
Throw a grenade at enemies in cover to make then leave cover, then activate exec to see and shoot them
Or
Just throw frag
bitter turtle
Something something imitate a fraction of our power.jpg
void rampart
i struggle to find a situation where a smoke can outdo 2 shredders
Yea but shredder vets can't dance like I can.
tiny summit
Doing the hacking mini game. Smokes aren't gonna be amazing vs "killing the thing" but it can have value
serene bough
considering i run infiltrate, never thought to use smokes for that
bitter turtle
It can have value but I just found the
"You can take exec smokes (awful on tree tax talents) to smoke them out of cover then spot them in smoke with yellow outline and shoot them" funny
Like in my mind I just thought
Or I can use frag
serene bough
if grenade regen wasnt a thing i could see an argument for smokes
tiny summit
If the maps werent designed in such a way that you're gonna kill 99% of the enemies you see and in close quarters, smokes would probably look nice. Lots of "oops all gunners" moments can mostly be solved with sliding between cover. There are some chokepoints where smokes look like they could win out bur could also just kill the heretics
bitter turtle
Also a big room of gunners is just free real estate for 2frag
tame lodge
to be fair I stated that the other grenades are better and provided examples with VoC and Stealth
tiny summit
Smokes almost belong in a completely different designed game
tame lodge
that's why I use them, like a mini challenge
tiny summit
One that isn't hinging on throwing an entire generation of heretics at you every mission
Just uploaded my Exe MF Recon. Description: I do not recommend this
void rampart
Stupid question that I should know 400 hours deep, but is harvesting blessings affected by the entire family? I harvest something off a Mk 2 Blaze Force, is it then available on the Mk 4?
tiny summit
Stupid question that I should know 400 hours deep, but is harvesting blessings a...
Yea
bitter turtle
not sure about force swords since i know staffs dont share
but for the most part
any weapon with the latter end of the name the same will share blessing
so all iag, all devil claw, etc
void rampart
cheers
tiny summit
As long as the weapon is of the same tree. Psykers get fucked. All staffs are different blessing pools
void rampart
void rampart
tiny summit
tiny summit
Hit & Run isn't exactly the worst. Being immune to a shotgun party after a kill has its moments
void rampart
I already have a build for that occasion
tame lodge
I agree
void rampart
this my highest rated vet weapon
tiny summit
Being shot at? Just say no
tame lodge
the gunners wondering why I'm running at them
void rampart
Pretty much, throw on duck & dive, skirmisher, leave no one behind, vanguard and every single stamina regen node you can find
As long as you never take a melee hit or get disabled, you're invincible! great build
tame lodge
I have terrifying barrage instead of Hit and Run
it's more of "I'm here to shoot you and your friends"
bitter turtle
i suggest swapping stripped down for deathspitter
tame lodge
from point blank
tame lodge
I think I have that on my other weapon
bitter turtle
you can run at gunners
without stripped down
as long as you angle the camera away from them
void rampart
i suggest swapping stripped down for deathspitter
It's a pure gimmick build, the gun is awful
tame lodge
yeah I know, that's why the other gun doesn't have stripped down
void rampart
Braced autoguns aren't for me, I'd have gotten it on an IAg if was possible at the time
tacit wren
did the braced autogun use stamina before and now it doesn't?
tame lodge
You might have deadshot
hold up
yup, you have deadshot
so the answer is no
sorry is this in the past tense?
so you had deadshot
strange fable
Thoughts on my two weaps atm? hit lvl 30 yesterday so havent had to much time to farm weaps
void rampart
For a first ever good IAg, that Mk 5 is pretty damn good
If you can get your hands on it, I'd swap speedload for deathspitter, the Mk 5's reload is already pretty fast
Plasma is decent but your damage and stopping power is gimped, keep an eye out for better ones (high charge rate as well)
tall torrent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS1xybCT1_g
Captain wolfer watching this:
tame lodge
Inquisition training is different
strange fable
Plasma is decent but your damage and stopping power is gimped, keep an eye out f...
Yeah, best i had gotten so far for plasma. For blessings wise was debating if to keep the shattering impact and change the other perk from specialist dmge to carapace damage
strange fable
Plasma is decent but your damage and stopping power is gimped, keep an eye out f...
For plasma gun, which stat or stats on it are to be considered the "dead" stats
bitter turtle
imo
keep speedloader if you havent swapped it
the second blessing doesnt matter that much
i'dr ather get lfaniac
that or swap the blessing to get raking fire for boss dmg meme
unironically i feel like raking fire is actually the best 2nd blessing
void rampart
For plasma gun, which stat or stats on it are to be considered the "dead" stats
Ammo & Thermal Res, you're basically not going to run out of ammo at all with survivalist, even without it, the gun basically has 200 shots loaded and it's basically a maximum of 3 to kill everything in the game
Thermal Res... I was 200 hours deep before I even discovered you can blow yourself up with the plasma gun
bitter turtle
charge rate is more useless than ammo prob
strange fable
unironically i feel like raking fire is actually the best 2nd blessing <:KEKW_og...
might nered it on the cai for the boss damage becasuse my melee is a XIIG chainsaw blade that is pretty much god tier horde clear roll'd
tame lodge
Thermal Res... I was 200 hours deep before I even discovered you can blow yourse...
and it's hilarious
clear pier
is combat knife viable on vet also what blessings should be i looking for
strange fable
Ammo & Thermal Res, you're basically not going to run out of ammo at all with su...
what think about the blessings of keeping the 2nd one and reroll special dmge to carapace
figured the brittleness blessing wud be nmice to help team out wioth boss dfmge
bitter turtle
is combat knife viable on vet also what blessings should be i looking for
yes
i made a pin for melee weapons
check it
pearl granite
does this look good? 😄
void rampart
figured the brittleness blessing wud be nmice to help team out wioth boss dfmge
Double check with someone else first, but I think Vet's melees are much better for applying boss damage n support through talents like onslaught. I'm not familiar with stacking crits, but I'd keep those blesings
bitter turtle
uncanny + riposte/precog/mercy killer are your optimal choices
tiny summit
unironically i feel like raking fire is actually the best 2nd blessing <:KEKW_og...
I've wowed a few randoms with it. They see a BoN drop so fast and in chat they're like "whut?"
pearl granite
oh man, I LOVE my raking fire columnus iag!
the damage is a bit low but it work nicely enough
tiny summit
In reality it's just less than complete god roll
tall torrent
Ammo & Thermal Res, you're basically not going to run out of ammo at all with su...
Thermal resist is not a dump stat
tiny summit
But still very good. Fatshark letting overtuned things stay the way they are this long
tall torrent
You need minimum 70% thermal resist to be able to fire 8 shots in a row
clear pier
@bitter turtle bro love the melee guide, this will help a lot
void rampart
You need minimum 70% thermal resist to be able to fire 8 shots in a row
ohh you're true
bitter turtle
<@160232264834220032> bro love the melee guide, this will help a lot
np
someone is making a more detailed one
but i meant for that one to be just something quick to look at
void rampart
Raking fire fans then, is this fixable?
serene bough
wouldnt bother
void rampart
strange fable
getting out of a mission, will link my melee, feel like i got hella lucky
@bitter turtle @void rampart
Gonna roll infested over to Flak
bitter turtle
looks good
the 13's one niche is mincing poxwalkers
so unarmored isnt even that bad tbh
you might struggle to make the rev attack do anything though
don tthink it can oneshot ragers without elite or bloodletter
you could try my cope strat
strange fable
you might struggle to make the rev attack do anything though
the heavy is a strikedown so will see
usually for ragers i just pull out my gun and gun em down
strange fable
i meant for light revs
oh yeah, btw how do you find out like the breakpointsn and hwat a particular weap does good against? see ppl talking bout it but idk how they know
bitter turtle
oh yeah, btw how do you find out like the breakpointsn and hwat a particular wea...
there's a mod
tha tlets you test out any weapon in psykarium
and set their stats/blessings to wahtever you want
void rampart
the heavy rev is definitely your specialized armor killing iirc, gives up a bit of horde kill the original chainsword has for powerful heavies
bitter turtle
the heavy rev is definitely your specialized armor killing iirc, gives up a bit ...
nah the heavies on it are kinda meme ngl
its not even better on elites
because you cant really run bloodletter without coping
all the 13 is good at is light spamming poxwalkers compared to the 4
strange fable
I mean the one heavy i did on a boss chunked his health pretty dang good
bitter turtle
the revs still do good damage, but not any better than the 4 is what i mean
strange fable
and when my two blessings proc'd i was just mowing through horde waves like a scythe through grass
bitter turtle
and the 4 can afford to runbloodletter
strange fable
ah
bitter turtle
yeah
the heavies on the 4 have naturally good cleave
so you can just
run rampage + bloodletter
without savage sweep
meanwhile uh
if you wanted to do that on the 13
this is your only option to proc rampage
lol
l1l2l3 h3
tall torrent
oh yeah, btw how do you find out like the breakpointsn and hwat a particular wea...
test stuff out in psykhanium
strange fable
this is your only option to proc rampage
I was proccing rampage with the lights fairly easy tho
bitter turtle
you can proc on poxwalkers
but i dont think the lights can proc on the beefier trash
also keep in mind
you have savage sweep on yours no?
so that helps
the point is you're defintiely forced to run wrath/savage sweep + rampage on 13
the 4 doesnt need the extra cleave
so it can run bloodletter for much better breakpoints on elites and more boss dmg
bloodletter is needed to 1shot maulers/bulwarks with the rev
tall torrent
CS13g is the only weapon I feel "incoherent" is its proper rating
bitter turtle
so in the end 13 doesnt actually have an edge over 4 in terms of elite dmg even though that's clearly its "intended" purpose with a bunch of strikedown heavies
tall torrent
everything else can be sorted into the scale of "great - good - decent - niche"
bitter turtle
yeah it just feels like they missed the mark designing it
honestly i ran more games iwth it
strange fable
CS13g is the only weapon I feel "incoherent" is its proper rating
Whats that mean? like its bad?
bitter turtle
i hate it less a bit lol
bitter turtle
Whats that mean? like its bad?
no its just poorly designed
tall torrent
Whats that mean? like its bad?
incoherent as in, its function doesn't fit its moveset
bitter turtle
like i said, its meant to be a more single-target oriented chainsword but in the end what it shines at more compared to 4 is actually just lightspamming poxwalkers
and the 4 is the one actually better at dealing with elites
tall torrent
when you have a light spam + heavy overhead melee usually it uses light spam for hordes and heavy for elites
strange fable
Havent upgraded yet but just got from armory, a plasma gun witb 79dmge, 75 charge, 80 stopping power, 49% ammo, and 66 thermal
tall torrent
except in the case of Mk13g it's exclusively a horde weapon
there is no cohesive combo mixing for u to optimize attack patterns
the best u can do is L1 > L2 > L3 > H3 loop
bitter turtle
l1l2l3 h3
tall torrent
which is really high effort and still has L1 strikedown
tall torrent
Whats that mean? like its bad?
strange fable
So shud i work on getting a 4? or is my 13 fine?
bitter turtle
So shud i work on getting a 4? or is my 13 fine?
its not unusable
but the 4 is a better weapon imo
there is areason i have dumped like 10k plasteel still trying to roll a good 4
despite having this
junior needle
Apparently the 13 has much better horde clear when properly setup, but that was tested on a zealot
bitter turtle
on everything or just poxes
I know 13 has like
the OPTIMAL POXWALKER MINCING speed
according to some chart i saw a whiel ago
tall torrent
the OPTIMAL POXWALKER MINCING speed
being faster than rashad is nothing to scoff at tbh
bitter turtle
true
i guess if you just want to spam lights and clear off chaff
stick with 13
not really a reason to roll a 4 if you dont care that much about the revs
off topic but iw as thinking
for deadshot ciag
do ppl take onslaught on those builds
considering you probably want 🦆 and 🤿
and the stamina delay
its literally just 1 more point
clear pier
@bitter turtle oi what version of the combat knife would you reccomend, is their any big difference?
bitter turtle
<@160232264834220032> oi what version of the combat knife would you reccomend, i...
mk3 is dedicated solely to single target
mk6 tries to have a horde clearing component to it, though its still very below average at it
it gives up some single target functionality
as a result
things like, being able to chain punch->heavy into each other
clear pier
so mk3 is what im hearing hahah
bitter turtle
yeah for the most part but
i did make a mk6 for some builds
truthfully the knife is best as a mobility tool
more than damage
and both of them fulfill that role fine
so its just preference in the end tbh
i dont think mk6 is terrible
clear pier
yeah feel that, feel like i can survive forever with the knife
void rampart
mk6 feels more fun imo, but mk3 stands on business
serene bough
i like 6
bitter turtle
yeah push attack definitely helps
but it eats stam compared to what the mk3 does
not that that is like
unplayable dont get me wrong
just its a clear loss on single target capabilities
if you find 6 fun
junior needle
<@160232264834220032> oi what version of the combat knife would you reccomend, i...
If you intend to light spam, mk3 is objectively just better at it due to having the same amount of cleave on lights. But one of the attacks in the chain just does more damage.
bitter turtle
just use it
clear pier
i'll give the mk6 a go at least but am loving the mk3 rn
bitter turtle
ye just use the one you like
serene bough
as mentioned earlier, its more about mobility
tall torrent
mk6 moveset
Horde clear:
- L1 > L2 > L3 > L4 loop
- L1 > [H2 > L3] loop
Elite Stagger: - Special > Push ATK
Anti-armor & boss: - Push ATK/H1 > H2 > H3
split sapphire
Ok yes or no question, is the plasma gun one if the best monstrosity killing firearm for veteran?
tall torrent
Ok yes or no question, is the plasma gun one if the best monstrosity killing fir...
it's pretty far from it actually
so no
split sapphire
Oh
short vapor
the OPTIMAL POXWALKER MINCING speed
Mk IV is better at it. H1 H2 L3 H3 beats out XIIIg for bruisers and fodder.