veteran-class

[terse idol]

From the reaction we got when people datamined the "Scion" armour

[spring spindle]

For the sake of being a lore accurate Cadian guardsman. What weapons do they bring for melee usually? Do they do shovels too? Or is it knives?

[terse idol]

Seemingly, a trench knife

At least that's what the wiki's stating

[spring spindle]

So probably a shovel or a combat knife?

Or chainsword now that I’m thinking

Well that’s probably more common for a Commisar but I imagine a few guardsmen get one

[terse idol]

hmm, far as the wiki goes, yeah officers get chainswords, but you could certainly justify it

but yeah, primarily a combat knife, or if they need to their shovel

I imagine all kriegsmen fall back on a shovel

Because their whole deal is trench warfare

But for most other regiments, it's just a knife

Or err, a bayonett too

[sonic marlin]

do you know the other stuff too? Ive seen ogryns get infinite ammo

[midnight totem]

ah, lucky bullet

basically, lucky bullet procs don't use ant ammo, don't need any ammo

[frank basin]

Immune to all ranged enemies include flamer and and scab bomber flame

[frank basin]

Is a gimmick

[atomic zephyr]

havent played with new buffs, are recons viable (not meta, viable) now?

[frank basin]

Well some guy say recon are shit

Ammo Economy and damage

[atomic zephyr]

everyone knows theyre not good im wondering if recent buffs did anything for em

with shock trooper being fixed

[frank basin]

I means I use them on Psyker

Warp charge buff gave me 24 stack free damage buff

[frank basin]

Not sure about running shocktrooper crits base

[atomic zephyr]

unfortunately i havent run psyker in months

[frank basin]

It got shadow cooldown

[atomic zephyr]

it got what

[frank basin]

Like a cooldown

[atomic zephyr]

shocktrooper has a cooldown?

[frank basin]

On shocktrooper

Yes

[atomic zephyr]

well, fuck that shit i guess

[frank basin]

Shadow nerf they say

Shadow cooldown they say

[atomic zephyr]

that probably shafts my laspistol build too if its too slow

[frank basin]

The mark 10

Slow and hard hitting

[midnight totem]

probably not

but laspistols are pretty ammo efficient

I don't run shocktrooper with them

[frank basin]

Shocks trooper kinda suck or mediocre

Kinda like 100% ammo efficiency blessings with internal cooldown

[frank ether]

Its not always neccessary

free to take if you're going down for marksman focus anyway

which you probably should with laspistol

[frank basin]

Back from helldiver?

How you feel right now?

[sonic marlin]

im also back from helldivers

[frank ether]

good

[atomic zephyr]

thats what i use lol

i dont like the accatran laspistol

just rolled a 373 base VId recon

watch it get the godroll purely to spite me

[winter grove]

Too bad that recons are bad

[atomic zephyr]

yeah yeah i know

i have a bunch of guns i just want it for variety

[winter grove]

I'd recommend Kantrael Mk4

I use it for basically mindless shooting in auric

[atomic zephyr]

i roll 1a instead for kants

[winter grove]

And still not be on last place for dmg

Like 3rd or 2nd because it's far from meta

[winter grove]

Ia is nice too

[atomic zephyr]

bruh.

why cant i get good rolls of good weapons

[winter grove]

I did get a decent roll for mk4 katrael and good rolls for laspistol mk10 and Kantrael Ia

I am lucky when it's about veteran's guns

[atomic zephyr]

mk10 laspistol, my beloved

[frank ether]

player retention

[bitter turtle]

The ammo economy is playable

Damage is still below average

[frank ether]

My biggest problem with recons continues to be the sight picture

the bad dps/ammo is one thing but I just can't enjoy shooting it

[bitter turtle]

i like shooting it

there is an appeal

[brisk sapphire]

Garden hose gun

Tickle ray

[frank ether]

the thing is

I don't complain about ironsights

some of my most used guns are iags and helbore

but recon irons and the projectile

[brisk sapphire]

Wish it sounded cooler and wasn’t terrible

Then I’d use it

[bitter turtle]

well

i mod so

sights are no issue for me

[frank ether]

I consider removing the model entirely for recons and just shooting with a dot

[hollow ibex]

that sounds like a skill issue, you're supposed to hipfire spray recons under all circumstances

heHeh

[frank ether]

playing swedish games is a skill issue

lack of decision making skills

[hollow ibex]

true

[winter grove]

Honestly I would use recon as all-around gun to shoot everything at every time

But Kantrael Mk4 just does it better

Genuinely

[frank ether]

To me it doesn't feel nicer to shoot than an iag

before anything else thats why I hated them even in the patch they were good

after ammo fix they certainly are viable for auric maels

but I still dont enjoy shooting them

and I dont feel like installing weapon customization mod to fix that

[fast sundial]

i almost don't want to ask, but what blessings do people put on plasma and why

[mystic surge]

Blaze away and Get's hot are the best in my opinion

[tiny summit]

Gets Hot - who doesn't like free crit with heat?
Blaze away - more dmg with tap firing? Why not
Glory hunter - not dmg but hey instant full toughness off a conga line of ragers or shotgunners isn't the worst thing to have

[fast sundial]

i feel like gloryhunter has supreme overlap with confirmed kill

[frank ether]

Its too much toughness

I dont think its worth the opportunity cost

when you can just run voc and have silly toughness anyway

but I guess there can be value if you run exe stance?

[bitter turtle]

gloryhunter is a decent choice just because blaze away is mediocre as hell

[frank ether]

so I guess I'd take your preferred choice in talents/ult in mind while making the blessing choice

[fast sundial]

idk that i want any of them tbh

[serene bough]

I tried using recon today

Idk why I bothered

[frank basin]

Ah

[fast sundial]

i kinda hate how well plasma works with weapon spec

[tall torrent]

Gets Hot
Gloryhunter / blaze away

[trim steppe]

Yup. Gets Hot is the strongest pick, Shattering Impact is the worst pick, and the other 2 are for flavor

Do you want a little more dps or a little more defence

[fast sundial]

none of these seem particularly impactful if it's used as a secondary with weapon spec

crit chance on high heat? chances are you're already going to have 100% because weapon spec

[tall torrent]

Plasma cares about perks more than blessings

[fast sundial]

mine rolled carapace + elites

[tall torrent]

If u can, roll carapace off for flak/maniac

[fast sundial]

was considering maniac

for flamers or somesuch

[tall torrent]

Maniac needs some further talent investments for flamer 1 bodyshot

[fast sundial]

(besides, crit chance does not seem to matter much on plasma anyway, it has almost no crit damage)

[tall torrent]

Crits enable bodyshot 1 tap which improves consistency

[fast sundial]

i suppose

[rugged garnet]

Good autogun build

[tame lodge]

sounds like the scab gunner pretty good

[trim steppe]

I think crits are 20%? On plasma which as 955715861 said improves consistency on various breakpoints. But yeah it's not game changing, just nice

[shadow dagger]

i ran out of dockets and couldnt refresh these but damn

how is 8 missions gonna end faster than the kill contract

[winter grove]

20% for flak, 25% for maniac
lvl 3 deumdumm and infernus
Is this a good mk10?

[trim steppe]

The stats aren't perfect but its a solid roll, definitely a keeper

flak/dum dum is an instant unbrickable

[junior needle]

Very, very strange. Hi intensity usually gets those done very quickly.

Maybe you’re getting too many zealots

[shadow dagger]

yeah ive been doing mainly auric qp

[serene bough]

Is this even possible

Im suprised

[shadow dagger]

healthy dose of zealots and oggys and only a few vets and psykers

yeah uhh

idek

even considering the fact that im running kickback oggy rn

this is comically slow

and my next game

an odd amount of zealots indeed

[serene bough]

[tame lodge]

it's a congregation

[winter grove]

Fellas

Does anyone have like

A build for bolter?

[austere pine]

peegun mark voc vet playing like a dummy

🙂

[tulip condor]

Don't think this is meta or w/e but its what I used to make it work. Might be a decent starting point for you

Keep in mind, I use bolter to use as mag dumping into bosses, squad of crushers, or even overwhelming horde in need be

[winter grove]

Oh ye

I play bolter more accurately

I do magdump bosses

[tulip condor]

Ah, for that, ive seen ppl use the deadshot talent and go 2-3 stamina curios. I think blessings are surgical and Pinning fire

[winter grove]

Thank you nevertheless

What stats should I look out for bolter?

[frank basin]

Mobility literally dumpstats they said

All ranged weapon dumpstats is mobility

😞

[trim steppe]

Collateral is a decent dump stat as well as long as you stay above the mid 50s, that will let you open a bulwark shield in 1 shot which is the main BP to care about

[frank basin]

Huh

[trim steppe]

I'd prioritize Damage>Reload>Stability>Collateral>Mobility

[white minnow]

you can also go lower if you're running exe's stance which gives +impact or if you're farther away, since bolter has less stagger up close

[low wagon]

is it as good as it looks? XIIIg has pretty wonky attack pattern...

block to flak and upgrade sweep? or should aim for different blessings with XIIIg?

[bitter turtle]

Wrath on 13

Check my pin

[low wagon]

👍

[bitter turtle]

Experimentally you can try bloodletter over wrath

But then u need to l1l2l3 h3

To maintain rampage

Idk if it's worth

[winter grove]

Didn't you know

[frank basin]

Yes

[winter grove]

Bolter with collateral of 51%+ stuns bulwark while hitting shield

[bitter turtle]

https://youtu.be/UKVuuyjs1PA?si=M9phEjBNAFvMcW8y

[winter grove]

So you just shoot shield and then his head

[bitter turtle]

Possible in theory for rampage/bloodletter to retain rampage on 13g

[terse idol]

That's pretty funny

[low wagon]

please heretics, stand closer, I need to hit you with my sword... efficiently

[bitter turtle]

It's still slow compared to wrath/rampage but at least it's an option

[low wagon]

I'll go with your first recommendation ;)

[bitter turtle]

A good option? Idk though

13 is kinda dubious in the first place

[low wagon]

Yeah; but since I came across good one, I'll at least give it a shoot

[bitter turtle]

Ya

Melk gave me a good one

It's the only reason I tried it a fair amount t

[low wagon]

that's melk's one too

[bitter turtle]

He's trying to sell off all his 13s

Still can't find a good 4

[low wagon]

xd

[bitter turtle]

Rolling for 2 weeks now

[low wagon]

never got anything good at Brunts

I just check shop 10 times a day when I'm at work via browser extension - takes few seconds

3 months, multiple chars, that's a ~3000 shops - and I did get like 200+ promising weapons from that; avg rating 372

but not a single decent lasgun 1a which I like a lot

not a single good evi XV

I don't want to think how it is for ppl who check shop manually which takes few minutes instead of few seconds...

[frank basin]

@low wagon you wanna nerf shop down 30 minute rotation?

[low wagon]

I'd love it if there were no rng stats, no rng perk, no rng blessings.

Each weapons should have fixed stats that you can alter in fixed ways via attachements / perks / blessings (customizable at any moment).

That's how it works e.g. in Aliens Fireteam Elite and it's amazing

Instead we are stuck with this Tecent shit that imho drives more ppl away than keeps playing

[winter grove]

Can this be saved?

It's 20% dmg for infected, 25% for unyielding
Pinning fire 1 and gloryhunter 4

[trim steppe]

Like 90%+ of the community that posts on here agrees. The layers of RNG is some weird obsession that Fatshark has that they think will boost metrics, pretty much all players would prefer a more straightforward gear system with easier customization

[trim steppe]

Hmmm. Pinning Fire is good but T1 is not ideal, but also the tiers don't scale very well so T1 is passable. If you swap Gloryhunter for Surgical and Infected for Flak/Maniac it should be a decent gun

[winter grove]

Hm

What about carapace?

I've got a surgical tier 3 actually nice

[frank basin]

Yeah tou can use unyielding for boss magdump

[trim steppe]

tbh I can't remember which perks give bolter the best juice

[frank basin]

Unyielding since bolter good shooting at flak

[trim steppe]

I think flak helps hit a few bps but i dont remember. Carapace is probably good if you pull out the bolter to deal with crushers

[winter grove]

I use bolter basically against everything

[frank basin]

Bolter deal like 480-500 dmg

[winter grove]

Didn't find trouble at auric with flak

Like at all

[trim steppe]

If you use against everything, theres probably a better pick than carapace to help hit some better bps. Maybe maniac but like I said i cant remember lol

[frank basin]

Carapace from infested so you have equally killing ogryn enemies

[empty kettle]

Infected to Maniac and change T1 Pinning Fire to T4

[winter grove]

Don't have t4 pinning

[trim steppe]

t4 pinning is like 4% power difference over T1 at best, much better to change GH to surgical

[honest crest]

This is a screenshot from a friend of mine. He asks which perk he should remove and what he should replace it with.

[winter grove]

Probably infested to flak

Kinda no brainer but idk

[trim steppe]

keep maniac for sure. Change infested to probably carapace

[low wagon]

All depends on breakpoints and his bonuses from other places. Flak might be great or might do very little.

He can just try all of them, once you swap perk, you can change it any time.

[austere pine]

veteran named diaz from EU who's just finished a repair mission on auric? got a few words to exchange with you if you wouldn't mind

[low wagon]

But definiately swap infested to flak / carapace / unarmored

[winter grove]

I sense fear, anger and a foreshortened lifespan

[austere pine]

four shortened lifespans?

[winter grove]

A foreshortened

[austere pine]

nah taht game was four shortened lifespans

[trim steppe]

I know on the mk3 unarmored doesn't actually help with any bps, maybe it does on the mk6 idk, but probably cara/flak better choices

[winter grove]

Nobody told me that damnation auric wouldn't be so bad after all

Kinda feared going on damntation cus I had blue weapons

But when I realised more people olay auric I tried it out few days ago

God damn it's much more fun here

[austere pine]

me after seeing a grimoire: "hey can we not do grimoires?"
diaz: picks up the grimoire
me: "hey can you drop the grimoire?"
diaz: refuses to communicate until 15 minutes later to talk shit about 'noob teammates' on auric after getting 2 people to die through holding the grimoire, one of whom having left (this was a psyker who we desperately needed)

[winter grove]

Maybe it's because I get conplete idiots on heresy

[low wagon]

just block him @austere pine

[austere pine]

no karking way it's you

[austere pine]

did already

[winter grove]

Not me I am a vet main

Also I play on asian servers

[low wagon]

unless he talked a lot of shit - then FatShark might do something if you have screenshots and go through support

[austere pine]

phew

[winter grove]

Two misses

[austere pine]

not worth my time. this isn't the warhammer universe where one needs to excise heresy wherever they find it

trust that i would like to speak to them on a personal level about how horrible of a human being they are for that

[winter grove]

I could feel the growing wrath through the screen it's so funny

[austere pine]

i am naturally a very angry person if in a bad mood

[winter grove]

What was he using anyway?

[austere pine]

revolver, knife?

0 clue

saw revolver the one time i died

[winter grove]

Psyker revolver

It's joever

[austere pine]

vet

[winter grove]

o

[austere pine]

we did lose a psyker though

cuz he got blown up by a poxburster (this was hist) because he was <1 wound cuz of the one karking grimoire

[winter grove]

I can see how psyker is important in auric

Played in heresy, didn't have problems with horde

Came on auric

[austere pine]

no clue what the psyker was using btw, just know it was helping plenty

[winter grove]

holy shit

The amount of specials was uncanny

[austere pine]

yeah it's a lot

[frank basin]

I always take extra curio

[austere pine]

saw 2 poxxies running back to back, 3 bombers standing next to each other and i was once in a sightline of 4 snipers and like 15 shootrs

[frank basin]

I don’t like two lives one wound

[austere pine]

idm low wounds. makes me better at the game i feel

[winter grove]

Makes me appreciate bolter more

[austere pine]

since i'm forced to not go down in stupid situations

[winter grove]

Cus like

When I first took it

[austere pine]

makes me rely on anything i can get my hands on, even blocking

[winter grove]

It felt awful

[frank basin]

Always get 3 wound total for my self when some shit hit the brick upon me

[winter grove]

Long reload, long pull out speed

Astronomical recoil

Felt like plasma that was beaten to death

[austere pine]

i play infiltrate which makes me a lot safer than one would expect

cuz i get 2 grut thems for free

[frank basin]

Well sometime I tunnel vision got my ass downed

[winter grove]

Now bolter kinda grew on me

[austere pine]

tghness refill, aggro drop, speed

[winter grove]

I like it

[low wagon]

quite normal on Auric, on last match e.g. we killed... 297 specials

[austere pine]

specials specifically? not even elites/unyieldings?

[winter grove]

I even actually made a better bolter build that killed two birds with two stones

[low wagon]

only specials disablers

[austere pine]

i still don't like bolter, no matter how many times i've tried it

[winter grove]

Decresaes recoil on aim and reload speed increase

[austere pine]

recoil big, accuracy not that big, sloooow

[winter grove]

Actually

Accuracy is very good

You can outsnipe snipers at huge distances

Bodyshots oneshot them too

[austere pine]

yeah sure but you need to wait for the recoil to go all the way down to attempt a shot again if for some reason you miss

[winter grove]

There's a tech to mitigate that

Just re-enter ADS

That or use deadshot talent

[austere pine]

i feel ciag still outclasses the bolter

through horde clear and single target dps

[winter grove]

Bolter is not a horde clear weapon by any means

In a pinch sure

But it ain't it

It's more of special/elite sniping

[frank basin]

Yeah

[low wagon]

Bolter can work, but is pain in the ass and simply one of worse option both on Zealot and Vet compared to other choices

It should get at least like 11% more baseline dmg so it hits more breakpoints on Zealot easier

ciag outclasses pretty much all weapons though, so that's not fair benchmark

[winter grove]

Well duh

Remembering a good quote

#veteran-class message

[austere pine]

what's the op trio? ciag, peegun and what?

[winter grove]

revolver

[trim steppe]

yarp

[frank basin]

Is yarp means yes and narp means no?

[low wagon]

yarp

[trim steppe]

yarp

[frank basin]

Stop that kind new slang

I don’t want learn evolving English

[winter grove]

Sic

[frank basin]

What

Is this some kind homemade English?

[winter grove]

no

[frank basin]

Thank the emperor

[low wagon]

It's from that british police documentary by Edgar Wright

or possibly earlier, trying to find out rn...

[frank basin]

Are they the one invented the word narp and yarp?

[low wagon]

not a native speaker, so don't know, research is ongoing

[frank basin]

K

[austere pine]

it's not new just very english

there's also glarp

[low wagon]

for now I only found "yarp" with meaning of "whine" in dictionary of scottish language from 1818; that's not a "yes" though...

[frank basin]

Make sense

Stop yarpping

[winter grove]

sir yarpsalot

[low wagon]

better than sir Diaz Insultalot

[austere pine]

don't bring up my darkest hour please

still recovering mentally

[low wagon]

California Revisited. 1858-1897 by Thaddeus Stevens Kenderdine (1898)

[frank basin]

Ogryn brain can’t read this

Give me context

[low wagon]

a word "Yarp" appearing in a book with meaning "yes", around 109 years before Hot Fuzz

[frank basin]

Hot fuzz?

[low wagon]

the documentary that popularized Yarp, I mentioned it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayTnvVpj9t4

very good, go watch it

[frank basin]

Oh that movie

I remember that movie

[junior needle]

I'd say it's in quite a bit better state than autopistol and recons

It's quite functional for a dmr playstyle, the issue is fatshark is determined to balance weapons with jank

[empty kettle]

I wish the cool part (full auto) was actually good.

[tall torrent]

wasted 13k plasteel clearing my storage and ended up getting my hands on these 2

[junior needle]

It's good for blowing apart bosses if you build it for that, but obviously it suffers from poor ammo efficiency if you do.

Just the nature of the low ammo weapon

[low wagon]

On Vet - yes ...but on Vet everything ranged is a lot better.

On Zealot, even with surgical, crits and weakspot hits, it struggles with 1-hit breakpoints even on gunners.

And more importantly on Zealot you don't have suppression immunity, so if situation is difficult (i.e. when you need it the most) - you can forget about dmr playstyle because suppression ruins your ability to aim

[tall torrent]

For zealot, Boltgun is for magdump

For veteran, Boltgun is for precise 1 hit kills

[junior needle]

but on Vet everything ranged is a lot better
Autopistol and recon lasguns would like a word with you

[frank basin]

My veteran do mixed attack both magdump and precise 1 hit kill

[junior needle]

Met a very solid bolter vet recently, actually competed with me for kills on my revolver zealot. Which is extremely rare

I do think it could use some love

But there's worse guns

[empty kettle]

I hope bolter gets buffed to a good state idk how I feel about it rn it feels so inconsistent

[tall torrent]

Reduce recoil jank + increase draw speed

I’m frankly ok with its breakpoints rn

[empty kettle]

And ammo but that’s just me 😔

[low wagon]

everything ranged is better on Vet than it is elsewhere

yes, recons are better on Vet than other classes, Autopistols too, if they are in game ;)

I'm not saying that recon is better than bolter

[junior needle]

Oh I see, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Actually, gunpsyker typically outdoes ranged vet in terms of dps

Because scriers is ridiculous compared to exe

[frank basin]

Thanks to Warp charges

[junior needle]

those too

[low wagon]

But has weakness in carapace that Onslaught talent beautifully covers

[frank basin]

And Rending strike

[tall torrent]

Onslaught doesn’t beautifully cover for carapace dmg

[low wagon]

But yeah, gunker is great

[tall torrent]

You’ll never burst down crushers in time for actual armor waves

Also massive ammo deficit

[frank basin]

I think recon weak against horde of carapace armors

[low wagon]

But if you have +6 stamina, -0,5 stamina delay and some stamina regen - you get perma Deadshot, with Reciprocity, passives - most shots are crits

[frank basin]

Can 1v1

[tall torrent]

Reciprocity barely works for gun unfortunately

[junior needle]

Perma deadshot requires you to be constantly being shot at, vs just existing with the ability active

[low wagon]

I do burst down crusher regularly on Auric Maelstorm Damnation with CIAG; ammo is not an issue when usually CIAG is ammo-positive - I can use up some of the maxed reserve on crushers

[tall torrent]

CIAG is not recon lasgun tho

[low wagon]

Of course

[frank basin]

Compare kinetic to laser energy

[low wagon]

And yes - even CIAG is not fantastic at it - but toss a krak, burst 1-2 crushers with CIAG, switch to power sword and armor wave is mostly handled

[junior needle]

Well, it depends on if you take onslaught.

[tall torrent]

Onslaught at least imo only exists for killing 1-2 crushers with high firerate magdump

[junior needle]

Even rending strikes alone can do pretty decently

[junior needle]

There's a few guns with absolute dogshit modifiers that needs that level of rending

[frank basin]

We have lot cat pfp on cattide now

[junior needle]

6d is a great example of a gun that needs it

[tall torrent]

6d, sure, others?

[junior needle]

Goes down to 50% on 3/4 armor types

Autopistol on flak is really bad

[tall torrent]

Autopistol is bad yea

Besides those not rly any

[junior needle]

Havent checked the mk2, let me look at a weapon list

[tall torrent]

Recon2 is only 600rpm

Not fast enough to get that much value out of onslaught quickly

[junior needle]

You forget it has absolute dogshit dps

But what really matters is the modifiers

[tall torrent]

Wasting 4 talent points to make dps go from “99% dogshit” to “92% dogshit” is not worth it, is what I’m trying to say

[junior needle]

Highly depends on the gun but I'm aware

But I'm saying that there are some that do need it

So it's not ONLY good for blowing crushers

But that is the primary use, adjusting adm a bit on some other things is icing on the cake

recon 2 has fairly slight negative to maniac and unyielding but doesn't need onslaught for it.

[winter grove]

Like Ius and Recon lasgun

[frank basin]

He only say autopistol and correct is a recon

[tall torrent]

Honestly tho
I just checked 6d rending vs onslaught on flamer
Bodyshot point blank was avg 30 shots with rending, 25 with onslaught
Headshot point blank was avg 19 shots with rending, 19 with onslaught

[junior needle]

Flamers aren't exactly hard targets

[tall torrent]

Yes but it’s smth you will actually rather frequently shoot at with your gun (compared to a mutant)

[frank basin]

Try mauler

[junior needle]

How about a rager

[tall torrent]

I can check

[frank basin]

Just stand far away from rager and land headshot on it

I means when turn off invisibility

What’s the base damage on ciag?

[tall torrent]

Dreg rager headshot only
Rending 76/106 (20 shots)
Onslaught 77~78/106 (18~19 shots)

With 6d

[frank basin]

Uh is Dreg ranger are maniac?

[tall torrent]

Yes

[frank basin]

Scab rager are flak

[tall torrent]

Maniac is what recon lasguns struggle against most

[frank basin]

I don’t think Rending armor effect against naked rager

[tall torrent]

Yes it does

[frank basin]

Huh?

[tall torrent]

Maniac is an armor type

[frank basin]

What In Sam Hill

[frank basin]

Their coding suck. I get them not good programming

[tall torrent]

Dreg rager bodyshot only
Rending 67/106 (39 shots)
Onslaught 74/106 (32 shots)

[tall torrent]

Did you never know rending applies to flak, carapace, maniac & unyielding

[frank basin]

No but it sound broken

It sound like not good programming

[tall torrent]

recon 6d I used

[frank basin]

Rending like apply non armor target is weird

[junior needle]

There's a dps and slight ammo used difference on headshots too.

Got about 174 dps increase and 2 ammo saved

[tall torrent]

yea 2 ammo

it's there

[junior needle]

ACtually

Hold on

I need to pause the videos to examine overshoot

[tall torrent]

yea I magdumped till low hp then tap fired

also I have precision strikes & superiority complex on

because why else would u even play recon

[junior needle]

First video kills on 82 ammo with rending strikes

[tall torrent]

This what I tested with

I think onslaught’s adm benefits are just incredibly small for the point sink it is

Biggest difference I noted is with bodyshots

[junior needle]

Second video kills on 84, so still 2 ammo difference

[tall torrent]

And no I didn’t tag them with keystone so

It’s the reg dmg

2 ammo difference is kinda pathetic imo

[junior needle]

A difference of 7~ shots is a survivalist proc though

Well it is a soft target

And doing headshots

[tall torrent]

Yes but recon also gets scuffed by shock troop and that’s kinda RNG

I don’t think 2 ammo save is that big of a deal in the long run given how hard it fucks over ur talent choices

[tall torrent]

This is at 29/30

[junior needle]

This assuming it's 2 ammo for every target, which is a big assumption.

[tall torrent]

If I dropped the 3 points on the right I could have gotten nice things like suppression immunity and shock trooper

[tall torrent]

2 ammo for the armor type it struggles most against

I can try test on mauler

[frank basin]

On body shot

Head is too tough to crack

[junior needle]

2 ammo on headshot

Bodyshots is more value

[tall torrent]

On bodyshot for Dreg rager I got a noticeable difference of 7 ammo

Like, that’s an ok improvement

But at the same time

[junior needle]

Thou build

[tall torrent]

Wat

[junior needle]

Is that a serious build

[frank basin]

Lol

[tall torrent]

I saved 1 point to test difference between rending & onslaught

[junior needle]

Oh ma gawd

Just drop the weak spot damage for anti suppression

[tall torrent]

I have a melee that needs it

[junior needle]

and the stamina tiny node for shocktrooper

[frank basin]

He went double demolition team and grenade stockpile

[tall torrent]

That’s a test build

Smh

If I wanted to actually play recon I’d drop 3 points on right (that I took to get to onslaught)

And get those things u said

[junior needle]

I wouldn't keep the ping keystone active for testing

[tall torrent]

I didn’t use it

Force of habit for me to take it at this point

[frank basin]

Hmm

[tall torrent]

If I dropped the 3 points on right

I could get shock troop + suppression immunity + rending strikes

Which showed pretty small differences aside from pure bodyshot magdump

[junior needle]

Or you could just use your points for other things differently

On maulers I got about a 10~ ammo diff

[tall torrent]

I could play this cursed thing and actually have most of the breakpoints I need on my Rashad so I get to actually do dmg

[junior needle]

Truly a cursed build

[frank basin]

What are you picking this side for?

[junior needle]

If you need to dedicate that many points to rashad I just wouldn't use it with that build

melee damage node

[tall torrent]

You won’t understand the power of +10% melee dmg until you try it

[frank basin]

Oh is a melee damage boost

[junior needle]

You need to spend too many points salvaging the recons performance

[tall torrent]

46 ammo mauler bodyshot point blank (rending)
40 ammo mauler bodyshot point blank (onslaught)

[frank basin]

What if picked both?

[tall torrent]

39 ammo mauler bodyshot point blank (both)

[frank basin]

That’s better

[junior needle]

It starts at 75% for the 6d

[frank basin]

Combine arm force

[junior needle]

That's why

It drops to 50 though

at range

Was actually a 7~ ammo diff for this video set

[tall torrent]

It’s around 6~7 ammo difference

Which is like, ok

That’s alright

Is it worth the point sink tho

[junior needle]

That's a whole ass survivalist proc

[tall torrent]

I mean

Yes

But at the same time

When you’re mag dumping maulers with recon

You’re at ammo deficit no matter what

[frank basin]

I think best use recon on horde and melee on mauler

[junior needle]

You can become less ammo deficient

[junior needle]

Absolutely not

[tall torrent]

Is going from 557% negative to 471% negative really that big of a deal

[junior needle]

I will agree though it's not ideal

[tall torrent]

Like, you’re still at >300% negative in ammo econ

[junior needle]

They should really bump up onslaught in the tree

[tall torrent]

Plasma has better ammo econ than this thing (like straight up)

[junior needle]

I know, you can also go ammo neutral/positive easily on plasma

[frank basin]

Because plasma kill elite special enemies not chaff enemies

[tall torrent]

Plasma is at deficit for every single kill, you’re basically relying on teammates’ kills and ur melee kills to actually go ammo positive

[bitter turtle]

This is my plan

For 7

[tall torrent]

Unless you’re cleave 1 shotting 2 elite/specials per plasma shot

[bitter turtle]

Honestly I am thinking of exec instead too

[junior needle]

Just kill 7 shotgunners in a line

[tall torrent]

How tho

[bitter turtle]

Voc boring

Onslaught should just be on left tree

[tall torrent]

Onslaught already takes up all 16 available brittleness stacks

[bitter turtle]

Why is the automatic gun talent on the single shot tree

[junior needle]

Switch the position with duck n dive or cqkz

Ez

[bitter turtle]

Imo

I would just put it next to fully loaded so there is a choice there

[tall torrent]

Then exploit weakness is lonely in right tree because it’s competing against 25 toughness and there won’t be an equally bad pick to accompany it

[bitter turtle]

I still think exploit is way way worse than onslaught

I think u guys undervalue magdump crusher with ciag kek

[frank basin]

Crits give melee brittleness kinda suck

[bitter turtle]

You can drop two in one clip

And it's a fast reload and bottomless ammo

[tall torrent]

Exploit needs buff for sure

[bitter turtle]

Really safe option to have

Ill agree it's literally only good on bruato iag recon though

[tall torrent]

Yes but also ciag is kinda cringe

[bitter turtle]

Ironically lesser so recon now imo

Cause recon can't afford the ammo to magdump crushers

[frank basin]

I would use chainaxe on crusher but I would run away from group of crusher

[tall torrent]

If u have a good enough Rashad u can fight anything

[frank basin]

Rashad overrated like ciag

[bitter turtle]

Like in an ideal world ya u just melee crushers but you can't tell me there is a risk involved

Not even from crushers only, u don't know if maybe some trapper comes up behind them and shoots through them

[frank basin]

No audio cue issue no problem

[bitter turtle]

Turn off brain and hold down left click on ciag and giag is a legit benefit

[frank basin]

Graia 30 rounds middle ground fire rate?

[tall torrent]

Graia8 is 600rpm 50+mag

[bitter turtle]

It gets 1.7 or 1.8k dps on crushers

Usable

[tall torrent]

Agripinaa1 is 471rpm 35mag

[bitter turtle]

Ciag goes above 2k

[frank basin]

Oh

[bitter turtle]

Aiag is when I'd stop bothering with onslaught on crusher tho

[tall torrent]

but I also just got this so

Can’t rly bring myself to use IAGs

[bitter turtle]

I don't use them anymore either

Bored of them mostly

[tall torrent]

Plasma is unironically more fun than columnus5

[frank basin]

Plasma go boom

https://tenor.com/view/darktide-40k-psyker-explode-perils-gif-10586129510772702813

[bitter turtle]

Idk if it would be busted

If exploit just worked on range weapons but only 1 stack

Would be very good with wep specialist synergy

Guarantee crit to inflict 10 rending

[tall torrent]

Should just work as normal for ranged weapons tbh

It’s not that busted

Can give it an internal cooldown if needed

[bitter turtle]

Maybe w/ internal cd

I was just thinking it's insane for crit strings

Instant 20 rending

[tall torrent]

Also just tried mg4

It’s fun with the fast ads move speed but

Dmg is pretty bad

Idk I think both mg4 and mg12 can use some buffs

MG12 dmg and cleave for sure

It’s basically not worth playing without exe stance

[winter grove]

That's kantrael right?

[tall torrent]

Kantrael infantry lasgun

[winter grove]

Ye

The KIL

I used Mk4 as both melee and ranged option

[bitter turtle]

I don't like any of the basic lasguns tbh

Feels rather underwhelming vs laspis

[winter grove]

Just spamming into horde, specials and elites

And for carapace there's shovel

If I do plan trying to hit heads and damage I do pick Ia

[tall torrent]

U say that then realize laspistol has horrendous dmg falloff at range

[bitter turtle]

That's the thing

[winter grove]

Yes it does

[bitter turtle]

If I want to snipe

Then why don't I just play v7

Or hb1

Just feels like it's a worse version of another gun no matter how I approach them

[winter grove]

Kantrael Ia fulfills roles at all ranges

Wanna spam horde? Go on

Wanna sniper specials? Go ahead

[bitter turtle]

The flak damage on it is really shit

So I can't say I agree with that

[tall torrent]

Idk why you’d want to spam horde with lasguns tbh

[winter grove]

Mk4 gives you ability to

Not so Mk Ia

[tall torrent]

And it’s still pretty bad at it

[bitter turtle]

Any time maulers show up on lasgun I feel like I'm stonewalled

From moving quickly

Takes years to kill them

Can't use HH bc carapace head

[tall torrent]

You can fight anything with a good Rashad

[bitter turtle]

Yeah I guess recon is good too, just bring it and rashad everything

[winter grove]

Recently been grinding with a bolter

[tall torrent]

That was actually my plan

As long as I have the points needed for Rashad breakpoints I can bring any gun

[bitter turtle]

But yeah idk

[winter grove]

You should try the full auto mod with mk4

[bitter turtle]

The flak dmg is just way too bad

[winter grove]

Shit ton of fun

[bitter turtle]

On the lasguns

Feels not competitive

[tall torrent]

I don’t need it to fire at max RoF

[bitter turtle]

When flak is the most common enemy

[winter grove]

Shoot head, simple as

[bitter turtle]

Yeah I'll just shoot mauler carapace head

[tall torrent]

btw do u think this stat matters
swap to ADS time

[winter grove]

I just shoot body and it dies eventually

[bitter turtle]

Yes that is my point

[winter grove]

Mostly I just use shovel for carapace

[bitter turtle]

Why play this then, other sniper gun kills faster

Is my issue

[winter grove]

And move on clicking heads

[tall torrent]

Well “eventually” can mean a lot of things

[bitter turtle]

U mean for the guide?

[tall torrent]

Yea

[bitter turtle]

I don't think so

[winter grove]

Mauler dies eventually

[bitter turtle]

Unless you plan to talk about tech too

Like that bolter shit

[winter grove]

Btw

[bitter turtle]

Reload into sprint into ads

[tall torrent]

Eh idk

[winter grove]

Speaking of mauler

Do I shoot body or head with bolter

[bitter turtle]

To cancel swap

Bolter is a finesse weapon

Of course head

[tall torrent]

Body

[winter grove]

Thanks

[bitter turtle]

Oh wait

U said mauler

Kek

Mb

[tall torrent]

U do quite literally twice as much on bodyshot vs headshot against mauler with crit

[bitter turtle]

Almost always body for every weapon on maulers

[winter grove]

Rashad and plasma

[tall torrent]

The only weapons where u want to hit head for maulers are like

Rashad
Tac axe
Knife
Power sword
Folded shovel

[tall torrent]

Plasma wants bodyshots actually

[bitter turtle]

I don't count rashad and shovel

[tall torrent]

You can bring it to a 2 shot body

[bitter turtle]

Have u actually tried to hit their body

With the overheads

Even if body was better you'd probably hit head anyway lul

[tall torrent]

Head (+25% carapace): 759
Body: 401

Rashad overhead

[bitter turtle]

Ya

[tall torrent]

No headtaker stacks

[bitter turtle]

But I meant

It's really hard

To hit the body

Hitbox wise

[tall torrent]

Yea true

Recently played 7 wound martyrdom zealot build with Rashad

It’s so hilariously busted

[bitter turtle]

martyrdom and blazing cd crit builds both seem so ridiculous to me

and ppl still talk about shout

[tall torrent]

U need to experience martyrdom + fury + faithful frenzy combined +50% melee atk speed on a Rashad that gets all its breakpoints

It transcends how u play this game actually

[rugged garnet]

Shovel

[raw steppe]

Tbh deadshot ciag is probably still stronger

Martyrdom and crit cdr is just braindead to play

In terms of raw power they cant match the bullshit of crit strings

[tall torrent]

Blazing piety gives ciag 25% crit chance for zealot too

[raw steppe]

Its not as good as deadshot

[tall torrent]

Because veteran’s +dmg talents?

[raw steppe]

Because it does come with pretty significant downtime as well as no recoil reduction

And ye

You dont have the nodes like 15% elite dmg, scav aura, 20% ogryn dmg, 30% weakspot etc

[dusky flare]

if ur running crit then 15% base and 30% weakspot are fake news anyway?

[tall torrent]

No?

[raw steppe]

What lol

[dusky flare]

yes, it's base which isn't amped by crit

[raw steppe]

Uhmmm

[tall torrent]

That’s just wrong lol

[raw steppe]

Yeah you cant expect to just spout wrong shit

Because people here are actually pretty knowledgeable about how the game works

[dusky flare]

Precision strikes isn't amplified by crit

[tall torrent]

Crit weakspot still benefits from it

[dusky flare]

obviously but it's a lot less

[tall torrent]

Are u sure it’s a lot less

[dusky flare]

depends on what weapon i guess

[raw steppe]

Its not lol it gets full benefit

[dusky flare]

ciag it is a lot less than 30% on those crit weakspots

[tall torrent]

Do u know how weakspot dmg is calculated

[raw steppe]

Its 30% more dmg on the bonus dmg from the crit weakspot

It works exactly as it should lmfao

[dusky flare]

not the crit portion

[raw steppe]

Actually demolished LMFAO

[tall torrent]

U can read the numbers urself

[dusky flare]

the numbers that clearly have a significantly <30% discrepancy?

[tall torrent]

Again, do u know how weakspot dmg is calculated

[dusky flare]

for crit weakspots

bro, i'm not asking why it's less than 30, i already know that. I'm telling you it's less than 30.

[raw steppe]

We know its less than 30%

[tall torrent]

596 highest with precision strikes
504 highest default

[raw steppe]

But it does work properly on crit weakspots

As you can see from the video proof

[tall torrent]

This is an 18% increase

[dusky flare]

No shit it works properly? lol. I'm saying it's less benefit.

precision strikes is at it's most valuable as a non-crit bp enabler

like on rashad

it's just objectively more benefit compared with a ciag

[raw steppe]

Yes but for a weapon with good finesse modifiers it ends up being 15-18% more dmg LOL

[tall torrent]

It’s actually higher than non-crit weakspot gain (+9.7%)

[raw steppe]

#veteran-class message

So how is 15-18% more dmg fake news

[dusky flare]

Yeah it's not really, it's somewhere in the middle. It's decent enough to use but nowhere near theoretical effectiveness since the ciag isn't a precision weapon to begin with.

[bitter turtle]

im gonna echo that i dont know what you mean by "theoretical effectivenness"

if you know how weakspot dmg is calculated its already a given that it is not going to be +30%

it snot +30% on rashad either

[tall torrent]

Precision strikes is strong as breakpoint enabler yes
It’s also good for high finesse weapons in general

[dusky flare]

This is true, but the rashad is always hitting heads. ciag isn't.

[bitter turtle]

15-18% is already a pretty big increase for a single talent point

on a very accessible part of the tree

[dusky flare]

Revolver is another example. You shouldn't be hitting any non-weakspot on your primary target. That's when precision strikes gets full effectiveness.

[raw steppe]

Idk i don't base my decisions on being bad at the game lol

I always aim for head shots

[tall torrent]

Revolver is ironically one of the best bodyshot weapons because it crits so much and you can only 1 shot things in so many ways

[dusky flare]

So you base your decisions on having aimbot? I promise you aren't good enough to maximise precision strikes on a ciag.

[dusky flare]

True, you can kit it to hit important body shot bps, but there's always more optimization to be done.

[tall torrent]

The optimization just gets to “can I crit 1 bodyshot this enemy”

[bitter turtle]

also are we uh

glossing over the fact

that u also said superiority complex doesnt work on crit dmg

it does

btw

[dusky flare]

There's always a different combination of buffs, weapons, and targets that results in another possible bp not being hit.

That's just how the zarona works

[tall torrent]

No u rly only need the two 5% ranged dmg nodes and superiority complex for its 1 shot breakpoints and those aren’t hard to reach for most builds

[dusky flare]

wrong reply oops

[bitter turtle]

next breakpoint for what

your melee?

wtf

i dont understand

precision/elite dmg are helpful for that too

[dusky flare]

^

[bitter turtle]

o

[tall torrent]

For Zarona

The only next breakpoints are

1 shot crusher & reaper

1 shot mauler

And those take so much investment that it’s not worth going for

Why make pointless investments when you can optimize consistency

[dusky flare]

it's personal preference at the end of the day

but you objectively can't call one "optimising"

[tall torrent]

Can’t call Crit bodyshot breakpoints optimizing?

Why not

[dusky flare]

Because the next breakpoint might be missed

[tall torrent]

Like I said, the “next breakpoint” is reaper 1HS and it’s 1200 dmg off

Where do you plan on getting that without completely changing build

[bitter turtle]

to hit that bp you'd need to run MF and exec stance on volver

which is not really optimizing when you give up wep specialist

[dusky flare]

wtf is mf

[bitter turtle]

marksman focus

to 1tap crusher

i think you can run without exec actually, but p sure you need MF

yeah exec alone is off by 100 dmg

[tall torrent]

how exactly do u plan on getting the remaining 1204 dmg without completely screwing over the build

[bitter turtle]

on a maxed out volver

[void rampart]

what do

[bitter turtle]

i'd run bloodletter on this one

dev strike -> bloodletter

stam -> flak

the 2nd perk doesnt matter too much on bleed cswords so you can live with infested

[dusky flare]

I mean you say crit body shots maximise consistency, even though non-crit weakspots should be more consistent in the first place

[tall torrent]

Weapon specialist + deadshot + surgical
Almost every shot is crit

[dusky flare]

the surgical delay to reach guaranteed crit is over a second, which is sometimes far more than the time it takes to immediately fire the headshot

disregarding weapon specialist which needs stacking and only works once

Again, there's no black and white, but i'm just saying optimisation never stops.

[bitter turtle]

if u arent killing 3 enemies with melee on a revolver build then nobody can help you ngl

https://i.gyazo.com/0254ee4e6ba9dbfa322690cabc067864.jpg

exec cant 1tap

so you have to give up wep specialist to build for the next bp

[tall torrent]

Revolver 21% crit chance
Surgical 1 stack 10%
Deadshot 25%
Veteran base 5%

Weapon specialist 1 stack 33%

[bitter turtle]

which is counterintuitive

to being "optimal"

[tall torrent]

61% without weapon specialist

With weapon specialist, 94%

[bitter turtle]

not even 3 enemy right

u still have base crit from skills

1 enemy

[tall torrent]

1 stack

If I build surgical 1 more stack (0.3s) that’s 71% crit chance

Like I said, most shots are going to be crits

It’s not like I’m not aiming for headshots, I still go for headshots

Bodyshot Crit breakpoints are just extra consistency

[dusky flare]

yeah i agree but it's not exactly optimising since no one should actually be trying to hit the crit body shot instad of the non-crit weakspot.

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/24d4522d8654e927a329c2904a8ea02f.jpg
MF revolver time

[tall torrent]

Especially because headshots at >30m in this game are basically myth

[bitter turtle]

idk i disagree on volver

you literally crit more than you dont

building for body lets u use the cleave

its easier to line up 3 enemies body than 3 enemy heads

[tall torrent]

This is about as good as it gets for revolver

Breakpoint-wise (without sacrificing survivalist)

[dusky flare]

but what enemies are they? you don't even cleave thru one scab rager, best you'll do is a dreg rager which you can't one shot to the body anyway

[tall torrent]

U can

[bitter turtle]

uh

[tall torrent]

Crit 1 bodyshot both rager

[bitter turtle]

i mean shotgunners love bunching up

and yea

you can oneshot both dreg ragers in the body

[tall torrent]

if I had maniac perk this is bodyshot crit 1 tap

[dusky flare]

exactly, but then the perk slot is gone

[tall torrent]

what exactly are u using the perk slot for

crusher 1 tap?

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/e43d7648ddb3e5290e7349ebad5f9a02.jpg

kek

[bitter turtle]

taking maniac/elite doesnt change any other bp, you still get 2tap crusher

https://i.gyazo.com/f87cdbba0d07c62aec425dc0b731e24b.jpg

u can name other enemies if you want and i can test swapping our maniac

[dusky flare]

Even 5% crit chance is better than nothing. The attitude shouldn't be "i don't need this slot for something else". As i said, you can do whatever you want, but there's always more to be done.

[bitter turtle]

5% crit is really bad value compared to making multiple cleave easier

dreg ragers and shotgunners love to come in packs

well ig it doesnt really matter what you run for shotgunner

but i think cleaving multiple dreg rager is way more value than 0.15 sec worth of crit

there's no way u can say that dreg rager heads all line up perfectly to cleave them with headshot

[dusky flare]

I never said it was good, i'm just responding to the attitude of "what else are you gonna use that perk slot for?" the whole point of optimising is squeezing out value until there's nothing left.

[bitter turtle]

i mean

being able to cleave things reliably

is using it to squeeze out more value

[tall torrent]

Maniac+elite is the “squeeze every breakpoint until there’s nothing left” route lol

[dusky flare]

Bro as i said, you can do whatever you want, i'm not saying that's wrong.

[bitter turtle]

im just saying

[dusky flare]

There will never be nothing left to squeeze. If you don't have the unyielding perk, you're missing monstro dps.

[bitter turtle]

what other perk would you run for more value

[dusky flare]

and no one is running unyielding, hence my point, there is no end to optimizing the zarona

[bitter turtle]

that is bc zarona boss dps is bad

[tall torrent]

If you’re using a revolver for monster dps then you’re using it wrong

[bitter turtle]

unyielding doesnt fix that either

[tall torrent]

Simple as

[dusky flare]

I'm literally using it as an example to demonstrate what true optimisation actually is.

less damage will never be better than more, objectively

[bitter turtle]

you are doing less damage if u cant cleave 2 ragers reliably

[dusky flare]

didn't say you have to spam monstros lol

[bitter turtle]

you are using it as an example because there really is nothing better value

putting unyielding on and spamming volver into the boss is borderline trolling

the dps is really low

like im open to suggestions, i have loadout mod to test basically anything, but there's not much else to put on

even crit chance sound better than unyielding but holding it for 0.15 second less vs reliable rager cleaves does not sound like a value trade

[tall torrent]

Maniac + elite is just the best perk selection for Zarona rn

Which is a bit unfortunate because that means a godroll Zarona needs 4/4 perfect

Maniac + elite
Hand cannon
Surgical

[bitter turtle]

unironically i'd rather take sprint efficiency over unyielding on zarona lol

there is just almost no situation ur going to get value out of unyielding

[tall torrent]

But that’s just the best optimization possible for the gun rn

[bitter turtle]

if there is a horde around the boss still, then u should save the bullets for incoming specialists rather than unloading it on the boss and being dry

if there is no horde then u should melee

[dusky flare]

The best optimisation doesn't only include kit. It includes hitting heads.

This convo got hella derailed. The main point is that if hitting a crit body shot was even fractionally of a second slower than a non-crit weakspot, how can that be considered optimsing?

[bitter turtle]

actual rager behavior is not conducive to hitting 2 heads in a row

https://i.gyazo.com/7dc83ab6ea5e0f03dd22af2c752e75ff.jpg

u can easily shift slightly to left here and cleave 2

on body

not so much head

[tall torrent]

Ok how do u plan on getting 1204 dmg in a finalized build that won’t take 20% ogryn Dmg

[dusky flare]

This dreg rager cleave is a hyper-nuanced scenario you're fixated on. That doesn't actually disprove me.

[bitter turtle]

im open to hearing other options that give more value

[tall torrent]

This is the “next breakpoint”

[bitter turtle]

that's why i was asking for suggestion

but "unyielding in case you want to troll your team" doesnt sound very convincing to me

[tall torrent]

Crusher 1 shot is not the next breakpoint, reaper 1 shot is

[bitter turtle]

like i said, there is basically no situation u should unload revolver into boss

[dusky flare]

Read carefully. Same breakpoint, but one drops the special a fraction of a second faster, which are you taking?

[bitter turtle]

if there are still hordes around boss, save it for elite/special instead of a low amount of dmg

[tall torrent]

The one that gives me better consistency

[dusky flare]

This was never my idea lmao

[bitter turtle]

which enemy are we even talking about

maniac/elite 1 tap almost all enemies still

and ur not going to 1tap crusher without fucking your build

[dusky flare]

Ok. That is fine, at the end of the day it's personal preference, but do you not see the irony in calling a slower kill "optimisation"?

[bitter turtle]

what enemy are you killing slower

that is my question

and dont say monstro

that is meme

[tall torrent]

What’s the slower kill exactly

I have 94% crit chance

[dusky flare]

The slower kill is charging surgical vs immediately firing.

61%% without specialist is 4 surgical stacks or 1.2 seconds. Too long to leave a flmer alive i'd say.

[bitter turtle]

ok, so how would you build zarona to 1tap rager on head with no crit

[tall torrent]

Flamers don’t come alone, there’s always something I can immediately melee for weapon specialist

[bitter turtle]

cause on lighter elite/special like gunner/flamer/etc u still have critless 1tap with maniac/elite

[tall torrent]

And, very ironically, maniac/elite doesn’t build for flamer breakpoint whatsoever

Headshot already 1 taps

[dusky flare]

So why aren't you build for the crit bodyshot one tap?

[bitter turtle]

for what

[tall torrent]

Because there’s nothing u can do to change that breakpoint? It already Crit bodyshot 1 taps?

Adding maniac doesn’t do anything to help it?

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/630fff393a07d48c1f9acd753649c047.jpg

it already one tap by default

this is maniac/elite

and btw, even if u switch to flak elite, u still cant critless 1 tap flak rager head, before you suggest that

[tall torrent]

Adding 5% crit chance for that breakpoint means very little when flamer heads move much more predictably?

Not to mention weapon specialist on the ready whenever flamer spawns in?

[bitter turtle]

like i just dunno what the bp ur advocating over rager bodyshot is

critless 1 tap headshot on ???

[tall torrent]

He’s trying to say that maniac+elite is not the best possible configuration

And that there’s no true best configuration

[bitter turtle]

ok, yes, but im asking what the configuration is then, and what it is supposed to accomplish

the only answer ive gotten so far is unyielding so you can trol lyour team on monstros

[tall torrent]

Sure whatever but if there’s no true best, then maniac + elite is second best and that’s not changing lol

[bitter turtle]

or crit chance so you can hold for 0.15 less seconds in exchange for less effective crits

[dusky flare]

I've been patient so far, but now you're just taking the piss lmao

[bitter turtle]

dude

i have offered

[dusky flare]

dunno who told you to do that

[bitter turtle]

to try anything

u suggested unyielding

#veteran-class message

right here

idk what im supposed to take this as

maybe i misunderstood

clarify for me then

the whole time ive been asking if u wanted to show something better with improved bp

and i can test it for myself and post ss

to prove right/wrong

then u say you can rearranged the perks for better critless headshot bp

that's fair

i actually tried it

flak+elite bc i thought maybe it could reach 1tap critless on flak rager

its 100 dmg off

also dropping maniac actually loses you critless 1tap on flamers

so i dont think worth

even if it did

https://i.gyazo.com/569147f40da5654300ba00e8c63906f9.jpg

this flak/elite