veteran-class

[fickle wraith]

am i dreaming?

is exec stance not valid anymore?

[bitter turtle]

exec is like the worst of the 3 skills rn

its probably ok on hb2 though

[trim steppe]

Exec stance works ok but shout is just so gd good it's hard to take anything else

[bitter turtle]

you can swap to it if you want

[fickle wraith]

ah

i see

[bitter turtle]

well

keep in mind i barely swap when i play hb2

just stab things with pokey stick (that got nerfed 😔 )

but if u swap a lot maybe then

its still kinda meh tho

feels like you're taking it just to swap wep faster lol

damage wise, ig it might net you a couple hundred damage on crushers, and let u critless oneshot unarmored gunners w/o running unarmored perk i guess

[grim widget]

mkiii or mkvii shovel?

[fickle wraith]

@bitter turtle doesm elee damage boost work for bayonet?

or just for melee?

like the modifier that says 10% melee damage boost?

[trim hemlock]

Spend the remaining points wherever you feel like

(probably pick Duck and Dive, because I forgot about that )

Grawr's cursed (but very effective!) version

I also like the second option much more than any other Vet build I currently have

[tiny summit]

[trim hemlock]

Do explain your emoji reaction

[tiny summit]

I'm confused of deadshot mostly

[trim hemlock]

Why's that

[tiny summit]

Surgical is pretty much all you need.

[trim hemlock]

I don't want to wait on Surgical, and Deadshot makes me wait less

[tiny summit]

waiting for surgical

By the time the charge is halfway you have deadshot's crit

[upbeat geyser]

is stripped down bugged atm. I had plenty of stamina, sprinted at a sniper and boom he dropped me, like wtf?

[trim hemlock]

Stripped Down doesn't work on sniper's shots IIRC

[upbeat geyser]

ranged attack is ranged attack no

[trim hemlock]

A sniper shot is a sniper shot

Ranged attack = all shooter/gunner attacks, for instance

[upbeat geyser]

if thats true its a shit help note

[bitter turtle]

wqorks for bayonet

everything melee boosts bayonet on the tree

EXCEPT

attackspeed boosts

also agile engagement boosts damage without swapping

so if u bayonet kill, your gun damage is boosted for 5 seconds

and vice versa

[fickle wraith]

oh

thats pog

[bitter turtle]

oh yeah

you cant trigger wep specialist either

bc it triggers on a swap

so there's no physical way to trigger it while staying on hb

[bitter turtle]

Tbh

That is the way I actually build hb

But he said he doesn't bayonet

So I feel like out for blood is not that good if ur shooting like 90 percent of the time

[trim hemlock]

[bitter turtle]

Same with melee dmg buffs lol

[trim hemlock]

Imagine not using like half the weapon

[bitter turtle]

Ya that's why mine went heavy on gun

But yeah I actually suggest a tree like those if he's willing to stabbo

Close and kill and 5 percent speed to do bayonet charge betta

[trim hemlock]

If they don't feel like using OfB to its full potential/want more ranged prowess, then top middle path is also OK, but I really like OfB as a whole, because it immensely helps with toughness uptime in melee

[bitter turtle]

Not like the gun ever runs dry

Ya you don't need to convince me on that

I literally ofb on every build now

Except v7

But that 5 movespeed is too tempting

[tall torrent]

I think it's done

[bitter turtle]

O yeah

One suggestion I had

Maybe change wording of good and strong

It's kinda vague which one is better

[tall torrent]

hm

ok

what to change them to

I considered them as strong > good > decent

and then niche is just situation dependent

[bitter turtle]

Maybe great > good

I think most ppl naturally associate great as better than good

[tall torrent]

works

[winter grove]

Oh we're talking about HB?

I've been trying to find a build for MK2 recently

[tiny summit]

MK2: it can live w/o Onslaught

[bitter turtle]

ya

i run no respite/surg

also i finished up and edited the melee weapons thing last night too

idk if ppl want to tear it apart

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ODLXP5sISxrcvXpaH1rXYTjDzHf0Ac243SZwqqg17M/edit

also tell me if im deadass wrong on anything

[tall torrent]

yea first page
there's no XIII chainaxe

it's Mk XII (12)

[bitter turtle]

god damnit

[timid otter]

I think it has huge problems in terms of perks

[bitter turtle]

there

[timid otter]

But it doesnt matter anyways

I found a good way to actually get every bp i could ever want to find.

[bitter turtle]

on which weapon

[winter grove]

What about chainaxe? I haven't really seen people use it

[timid otter]

Maniac on chainsword is highly questionable

Same with devils claw

[tall torrent]

afaik chainaxes want flak/maniac/carapace

[bitter turtle]

for chainsword, maniac lets you rev light kill mutants

what would you run on it

[timid otter]

Charging a heavy to 1 shot a mutant with rev isnt that much time

[tall torrent]

when in doubt, +10% elite never hurts

[bitter turtle]

i thought the same but i saw like

[timid otter]

espically considering its a special that legit screams its coming.

[bitter turtle]

an unreasonable amt of ppl

[timid otter]

Elite is actually solid on the chain sword

[bitter turtle]

talking about unarmored/infested to 1s chaff

[timid otter]

it grants the bp for dreg ragers, scab ragers.

[bitter turtle]

which ig you would need

if u do that

[tall torrent]

I'm not rdy to get into breakpoints with weapons I'm not familiar with

[bitter turtle]

bloodletter meme

[timid otter]

thats fine

No psykanium testing

All i need is damage tables

Id like to automate the process of actually testing the bps.

[tall torrent]

also fyi helbore's dmg table is completely off

because ofc it is

[timid otter]

Then it will have to be done manually as a damage table.

Ive mostly already written a program that does bps for me.

I can add onto the components that are currnetly missing.

[bitter turtle]

im p sure rev heavies oneshot regardless for those

[grim widget]

what's the best shovel right now?

[timid otter]

which chain sword

mk 4?

[bitter turtle]

ye

[timid otter]

Depends on talents

[bitter turtle]

with the right tree at least

[tall torrent]

with the power of bloodletter, rev 1 shot breakpoints stop mattering

[timid otter]

Right tree yes.

[tall torrent]

anything short of crusher will die

[bitter turtle]

that's fair tho

ill add it in for rampage/sweep build

elite i mean

if you dont take melee dmg and dont run bloodletter then elite prob better

[tall torrent]

I just consider CS4 as
flak + maniac/elite/unyielding
rampage/bloodletter/savage sweep

[bitter turtle]

what does unyielding do

[tall torrent]

boss dmg

[bitter turtle]

ah ok

[tall torrent]

because ofc u take a chainsword for boss dmg

[timid otter]

https://discord.gg/C38FcQEQ

Let me actually show my thought process abit of how to handle veteran breakpoints

[bitter turtle]

tbh

i think i am biased towards maniac bc i do the bloodletter meme

means the ragers dont need to bleed at all

and any random light swing even on bodyshot kills mutant lul

ill add the elite one

and unyielding

also me can't watch atm

ok

i changed them

any other input

[tall torrent]

combat axes are uh

rashad
unarmored + flak/carapace
brutal momentum + headtaker

achlys
brutal momentum + thrust

antax takes way more melee investment than rashad on veteran that I don't even consider it

[bitter turtle]

theoretically

cant you do

bromentum thrust on rashad too

you can hit the bp without headtaker

it just needs a rly good axe and 10% melee

[tall torrent]

if u have unarmored + flak and are willing to still put points into melee dmg

yes

[bitter turtle]

do you think its not worth talking about

i wanted to push them together just for the sake of brevity

hence the "check to see if your axe can hit bp before you toss it" section

i guess ill split it to clarify further

[tall torrent]

No because you’re still missing breakpoints with that build

You can’t 3 tap Dreg ragers

Because combat axe heavy overheads have bad maniac dmg

And you are gonna fight Dreg ragers a lot

[frank basin]

Not even my psyker duel sword can beat single rager

They move attack quickly

So no opportunity window to melee it

[bitter turtle]

ok fair

i considered them at least baseline decent if they can hit the chaff bp but maybe my standard was too low lul

alright

i changed it

anything else

[tall torrent]

Rashad push atk force staggers both ragers

[timid otter]

Im thinking of making a ui abit like this

with it displaiyng under bodyshot the actual number of hits needed to kill the target for its respective damage type.

Ill also need to add somewhere on the screen where it actually can be clicked in to activate perks, talents, other stuff.

What is the actual formula for rending, brittleness?

[bitter turtle]

you know armor modifiers right

[timid otter]

Yes

[bitter turtle]

just add rending/brittleness to the modifier

if you have a 50% modifier against flak

10% rending raises it to 60

brittleness works the same way, just as a debuff on the enemy rather than a buff on yourself

anything past 100% gets quartered in effectiveness as well

[serene sage]

does anyone else keeping getting weird lag spikes while playing?

[bitter turtle]

sometimes

you mean like rubberbanding?

[junior needle]

Gunners still do pushback in the psyk

Thanks fatshark

[ripe totem]

yeah they didn't fix gunners

[vital garnet]

Yeah since yesterday

Pretty much never otherwise

[umbral granite]

Melk is trying to tempt me...

thrust 4

[raw steppe]

ds staggers on special

so you can stab special stab

through their combo

[umbral granite]

Brunt is selling me this... good or bad?

[bitter turtle]

meh

low penetration

well

let me rephrase

its decent

69 is not like super low

[rancid tinsel]

It’s got nice penetration

[bitter turtle]

but ideally you would have wnated mobility to be lower

[timid otter]

Its the ideal penetration

[rancid tinsel]

Ayoooo

[junior needle]

nice

[tall torrent]

Low penetration could be a problem

At the very least it should be valid for farming IV blessings

[trim steppe]

Not the greatest stats, but not a terrible piece. Worth picking up just for T4 Thrust imo, and with 25 maniac you can still use it until you roll better

[bitter turtle]

Low first target with thrust is kinda weird

But yeah thrust is good

Might be worth taking it just to rip blessings off

[tiny summit]

Got a Rashad w/ +70s in all dmg stats...no BM. No unarmored or flak. Holy shit rashad gacha is so ass

[umbral granite]

So... until i roll a better one, would something like this work? (my list of blessings on the saper shovels is kinda bad)

Welp... in the state above, the shovel does THIS to a damnation level crusher...

takes away 2/3 of it's health in 1 special-swing

[tiny summit]

With what kind of build? With the melee talents you can get pretty good results

[umbral granite]

when i did the pic above, it was with no melee talents, just using my shotgun-vet build

give me a sec to grab a screenshot of the talent tree

[trim steppe]

It's tough, man. Gotten close but still not managed it on my vet. The one I finally did get was on my zealot. Its damn nice tho

[umbral granite]

This is the build i was using when i took that screenshot (the build i use with my shotgun-veteran)

as you can see, not a lot of talent points into melee skills

as i just grabbed the weapon to see what it could do off rip before i decided to invest my talent points into it

[tiny summit]

Yea, because even on my Exe builds my folding shovel can do near that with no melee stuff

[trim steppe]

That's what I would do, yeah. I'd go skullcrusher or decimator for more horde clear. If you ever find one with better base stats you can rip thrust off and put it on that one

[bitter turtle]

A thrust one can one tap crushers

If you put carapace on

Also I'd run uncanny no matter what personally

It's too good

[umbral granite]

Unfortunately, i do not have uncanny for the shovels at this time, so for now im stuck with skullcrusher

[bitter turtle]

O

Then yeah that's fine

Personally I think thrust shovels should always run carapace for the one tap on crushers but your first target is p low so not sure

[trim steppe]

My current best vet rashad. So close. Fortunately it still works great despite its flaws

[trim steppe]

In his screen shot it looks like he's about 60% hp on a 1-hit rn, so I dunno if 25 cara would push it over

[bitter turtle]

Ya prob not

[tiny summit]

Want to kinda farm for one but also I'm playing Darktide a lot less now.

[trim steppe]

Ya same. If a content patch drops that's probably what I'll try for next tho

[umbral granite]

I swapped flak to carapace, and this was the result...

[bitter turtle]

Yeah the first target is just too low I think

[umbral granite]

Probably

only 62%

[bitter turtle]

First target is more impactful than any other stat for single target killing

[trim steppe]

Doesn't uncanny apply on first strike, too? So without that I dunno if 1-shot is possible even with first target higher

[bitter turtle]

Uncanny applies on the pull out

So I don't think it adds a ton

[umbral granite]

1-taps muties though... so theres that at least

[trim steppe]

Nice. Defintely servicable, just not godroll

[umbral granite]

and maniac ragers

[bitter turtle]

It's not too hard to get s good shovel tbh

You have 2 dump staye

Stats

So you'll get a decent one eventually

[umbral granite]

almost kills flak ragers... but i think i can just mark them for that

[trim steppe]

Is that with flak dam? Or with cara still?

[umbral granite]

Still cara

[trim steppe]

If thats with cara then flak would definitely put you over

And since you need a 2-shot on crushers either way cara doesnt give you much value

[bitter turtle]

Yeah probably do flak for now

For that one

[late hatch]

I dont really like deci much as it drops all stacks on a miss. this is the rashad ive been using

[umbral granite]

oh dang, i dont even need the head-shot for the mutie kill

bro, it cant 1-tap a dog with the special unless it's a head-slap...

granted, its a light special hit

[trim steppe]

I agree, I definitely prefer headtaker. Thats a damn sexy one man. I'd switch maniac to flak tho since it will let you 1-shot dreg bruisers and generally give more milage. IMO

[bitter turtle]

He needs unarmored on that

You can hit the flak BP without perks

[bitter turtle]

Just wait till you see the unyielding dmg

It's fucking awful

[umbral granite]

I find myself wanting to just use my chainsword... this thing isnt perfect, but it's solid enough

[bitter turtle]

That's literally nearly perfect 🤔

[trim steppe]

Mighty fine one tbh

[bitter turtle]

Level 4 flak is all you're missing and I don't think it makes a difference anyway

[trim steppe]

Just found this in my weapon pile. What do you lads think, should I roll it? Drip or Brick?

[bitter turtle]

How could that possibly be a brick

Ya roll it If you want a csword

[trim steppe]

If hadron does her thing

[bitter turtle]

If only brunt gave me chswords with those stats 😔

[trim steppe]

She knows what shes doing, breaking our hearts 😭

[bitter turtle]

I've rolled like 2m ordos so far

All shit

[late hatch]

I like maniac for the tox flamers and stuff as well as ragers, but i have another decent roll i could mess around with

[trim steppe]

YO

Fuck ya

Best start imaginable

[bitter turtle]

Now just pray for one more good roll

Tbh if u do bloodletter its already good enough

The second perk is not critical with bloodletter

[trim steppe]

The tension rises

[late hatch]

this is the one I was using before. decap is pretty good

[trim steppe]

RISING

[trim steppe]

Nice, I haven't had both BM and decap so idk how decap feels on that

[bitter turtle]

Decap is meh

[late hatch]

decap is pretty good once you stack it up, and bromentum is just too good to miss for me

[bitter turtle]

Headtaker is by far the best

After bromentum

Deci is OK but dropping stacks on miss is sadge

[trim steppe]

🪦

[late hatch]

i think decap is great if you can consistently hit heads

[umbral granite]

the 74% finess on it means that my heavy-attack speed is just slow enough that my combo can be interupted by a rager if i dont push-block-stab.
Niche thing, yeah, but when you're used to doing combos like me, you feel it in stressful situations and cant auto-pilot

[bitter turtle]

U want headtaker to hit one-shot BP on scab bruisers without taking every single melee buff on the tree

[upbeat geyser]

I suppose the question is what's your melee crit rate

[bitter turtle]

Crit damage us always bad no matter what

That being said

I'd just swap out the blessings and live with it

Cause those blessings are p bad

[late hatch]

22% x5 finesse if you can hit them in the head seems to do pretty well

[upbeat geyser]

You can get pretty good melee crit rate

[bitter turtle]

You're relying on getting one-shots so you can one-shot in this case

It's just far less reliable

[bitter turtle]

The way crit dmg is calculated makes it awful even if u crit always

[trim steppe]

Yup only way to redeem that one

[bitter turtle]

It's 8 percent of your bonus dmg from critting

So if u do 100 dmg and 150 on crit

It's 8 percent of the bonus 50 dmg only

Not the total 150

Weakspot dmg is calculate the same way

Which makes those perks awful

They add like single digit dmg on most weps 😔

[upbeat geyser]

I don't care about the perk, its do you need to swap out a second blessing

[trim steppe]

There's probably a few niches where those push a weapon over some BPs but yeah there's no case where I'm picking those over one of the flat damage perks

[bitter turtle]

O you mean dev strike

It's bad

Just straight up

I wouldn't bother

[upbeat geyser]

You can easily have a high crit rate on melee

[bitter turtle]

Lower value than wrath and savage and less reliable on top of that

Chs also doesn't have a crit bonus statline or inherit boosted crit rate

[upbeat geyser]

desperado, reciprocity, the perk under close and kill. You can have a pretty high effective crate

[bitter turtle]

Thats like 45 crit even if u fully stack recip

So it's still unreliable on top of half the value of savage sweep

[upbeat geyser]

if you're horde clearing which what that's for it will be all the time at that

[bitter turtle]

And u have to take points in a lot of areas u might not otherwise

Idk this sounds cope as hell

[trim steppe]

You know chs better than I, what are the stat block cutoffs? For a godroll, that is. Is it 70+ all 4 or is there more leeway

[bitter turtle]

I use bloodletter

So

It's actually p flexible

U might just wait a few extra ticks for a bad one lul

[upbeat geyser]

oh yeah reciprocity and desperado, big commits. Its the other side of weapon specialist lol

[trim steppe]

bloodletter/rampage? Savage?

[tall torrent]

reciprocity 25% (if you kill things too fast it's usually 10%)
veteran 5%
talent node 5%
shred IV 20%
desperado 10%
You can go up to 60~75% melee crit chance which is pretty good but it's not as crazy as Zealot having potentially 92~95% melee crit chance

[bitter turtle]

Bloodletting rampage

Yeah but that needs shred IV too

Idk all this to enable a blessing that has less cleave than savage?

Which activates just by attacking normally

[tall torrent]

I don't think reciprocity is all that good for any melee that isn't knife/tac axe, and it's mostly not relevant enough for ranged weapons

[upbeat geyser]

That's really funny

[bitter turtle]

I agree recip is more unreliable than ppl give think

[trim steppe]

What would you change?

[bitter turtle]

Unarmored to elite

If u keep savage rampage

[tall torrent]

what's ur take on it

[bitter turtle]

Savage to bloodletting and unarmored to maniac or unyielding if u want the bleed rev

[upbeat geyser]

Dodging is a basic thing you do in the game all the time

[bitter turtle]

Elite let's savage rampage one-shot ragers on heavy rev

[tall torrent]

yes, that I already know

[bitter turtle]

Bloodletting one-shot the majority of elites with rev already

So u can do maniac to rev light kill dreg rager and maniac better

Or unyielding to boss dmg better

Or you can even do elite to kill mauler a little faster too

It doesn't matter too much

[timid otter]

Im pretty sure the weapon will kill dreg ragers with just bloodletter

[bitter turtle]

It does but needs a few ticks

[timid otter]

Maniac genuinely seems like a waste.

[bitter turtle]

Maniac just deletes outright

[timid otter]

Elites deletes ragers outright

[trim steppe]

nice that its the same weapon locks regardless so I can try both variations

[bitter turtle]

Ya but you also get to Rev light maniacs on body

Idk I like it

[timid otter]

Sacrificing a milisecond to charge a heavy for 2 enemies within the game isnt a huge deal.

[upbeat geyser]

and you're just like, that leads to not much. Ok champ.

[bitter turtle]

That's why I said unyielding is good too

[timid otter]

Espically when those enemies arent ideal to melee to begin with

[tall torrent]

I don't mean to be rude in any way but I wonder if you've checked how often you can tell it's benefitting your melee besides knife & tac axe

[bitter turtle]

Wdym

Mutants are ideal to melee at least

[timid otter]

Ragers are not the thing to melee.

[bitter turtle]

As for rager it's one of my primary uses for chsword on v7 build tbh

[timid otter]

Mutants are half, half

[bitter turtle]

Same with mutants

[tribal tangle]

Is Cavalcade 4 on the bolter worth me buying a melk weapon?

[bitter turtle]

I use it very defensively

I think chsword is not very good at pushing in personally

[upbeat geyser]

I haven't downloaded the power bi mod but the scoreboard tells me how much I crit and its a lot

[tall torrent]

how much of that is actually extra crits from reciprocity, and which weapons are you using

[timid otter]

Ye its ok

Especially good on zealot.

[bitter turtle]

Zel does the hipfire thing better

[timid otter]

Veteran doesnt thrive quite as much with cavalcade.

[upbeat geyser]

sorry is the game here you use a knife so reciprocity doesn't count for a shit because I use a powersword and don't dodge?

[timid otter]

Actually scratch that veteran doesnt do as well with bolter in general

[bitter turtle]

Surgical ads is ok

[timid otter]

Its a wannabe helbore.

And helbore does the ADS one shot gimmick much better

[bitter turtle]

It's still not terrible tho

[tall torrent]

I said at the very beginning that with weapons that kill things too quickly, you don't get to dodge as much to get use

I also said tac axe / knife benefit more because they have better dodges

[upbeat geyser]

the horde clear is the same thing, slash slash dodge, slash slash dodge. Occasionally block push

[tall torrent]

you're using knife?

[bitter turtle]

I don't think psword horde clear is "the same" as knife

[upbeat geyser]

unless you're using a powersword and its charge up and move like a fat ass

[bitter turtle]

Literally one of the best in the game vs one of the worst

[tall torrent]

it's not just a power sword thing though

[upbeat geyser]

its worse the better you are

[bitter turtle]

Knife?

[upbeat geyser]

power sword

[tall torrent]

combat axes chop through hordes too quickly
DC swords parry more than they dodge
Chainswords would dodge more but they also don't have very high finesse
Shovel staggers so much that you don't dodge as much (also don't have crit blessings)
Chainaxes have bad dodges even though they don't horde clear very well

none of them really get to use reciprocity in its best case scenario

that's what I'm suggesting

and I don't mean to be rude in any way

[upbeat geyser]

you can just dodge and have more crit chance. This seems so basic to me. Its free damage. And it hangs around in case something actually dangerous turns up. I'm also not being deliberately rude but for the sake of pressing a button I don't know why you wouldn't

[tall torrent]

well in that case it's competing vs CQKZ on the path to desperado

CQKZ is also free dmg, works for all your attacks (including grenades), is active on demand and has pretty good uptime

CQKZ also gets to take the stamina regen delay boost if u feel like it

[upbeat geyser]

cqkz isn't always available. depending on your combat ability regen its closer to that but its so much more variable and its just close damage. you can dodge slash a horde and have full recirpocity stacks, or you have stripped down and run for 5 seconds. Its a much broader buff

[tall torrent]

CQKZ says close dmg but actually works up to 30m

[upbeat geyser]

That doesn't change what I said about it being unreliable. You dodge constantly. You will almost always have some level of reciprocity in any situation approaching tight

[bitter turtle]

i just dont think its as reliable as u think it is

example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmPTb9AS5Sk

i got one proc there

maybe if you like

never push

i guess?

but you dont really proc it that much

[tall torrent]

but the question is more like, do your weapons care more about ~10% higher crit chance or +15% damage

[bitter turtle]

i did it on a bigger group too and it was like 3 procs by the time i finished hacking them to pieces

[upbeat geyser]

you don't dodge lol, what are you expecting to happen

[bitter turtle]

its just not exactly as reliable as you think

im not gonna dodge if i dont need to

there is a dodge limit on weapons

why would i waste them on purpose

pushing is (nearly) free

[upbeat geyser]

you dodge to get the crit chance because it you might need it when the 10 gunners walk into sight. Why would you not max your crit chance

[tall torrent]

which weapons are u talking here exactly

[bitter turtle]

i mean i already explained why i wouldnt dodge if i dont need to, there is a dodge limit

[upbeat geyser]

are there guns that don't crit?

[bitter turtle]

u dont want to be walking around like ur stuck in molasses when shtf

bc you wasted all your dodges for no reason

[tall torrent]

no, but for a lot of weapons you want to build for breakpoints that don't involve crits

[junior needle]

If no one said this, wrath is generally preferable over savage sweep on chainswords as chainsword lights (both models) cannot pierce 3 bruisers by default. You can get around this by heavy attacking to get your procs going, but I find it's better just to use the simplest method.

Flak/unarmored are good for horde clear damage.

[upbeat geyser]

are you like, I'm only going to ever hit the weak points ?

[bitter turtle]

doesnt mk4 use heavies regardless

at least i do

[tall torrent]

no, but I would always aim for them and consider aiming for headshots more consistent than getting 10~15% more crit chance so I can randomly hit a bodyshot breakpoint that I never knew was coming

[junior needle]

You can, but the few people I see using chainswords nowadays just light spam

[bitter turtle]

i agree on wrath on 13 though

the heavies on that thing are shit

mk4 got those sweeping heavies tho

[junior needle]

You need a specific heavy to proc rampage on that one

[bitter turtle]

yeah

i tested it a lot bc melk gave me a goo d one

i hated it

[upbeat geyser]

I don't know what to say to you. Critting is good, makes things die fast. Press space to increase things die fast. Stacks 5 times. You do it anyway

[junior needle]

So the issue with reciprocity is that it doesn't proc very reliably ranged attacks (it seems to not work at all for gunner/reaper fire either)

[trim steppe]

So essentially SS -> Wrath and then top off to Rampage 4?

[bitter turtle]

i think you can keep SS

unless you light spam like he said

depends on how you play

i think mk4 heavies are really good t hough so idk

[junior needle]

Yeah

[tall torrent]

if you're considering stuff like columnus5 here then I get what you're saying

[junior needle]

ss will be better if you just heavy

[upbeat geyser]

any iag

[junior needle]

I'd keep a change slot open instead of going for t4 rampage personally

[trim steppe]

I do tend to enjoy the braindead light spam lol

[junior needle]

You never know what will happen down the line

[bitter turtle]

then yeah wrath will serve you better

[tall torrent]

yea still automatic weapons that don't care abt breakpoints as much

[bitter turtle]

i just dont like light spam on mk4

[trim steppe]

true that

[bitter turtle]

there's 2 strikedowns

as opposed to repeated sweeps/diagonal sweep on heavy

[tall torrent]

but for the other non-full-auto weapons (a lot of them) care about breakpoints that don't involve crits, reciprocity just doesnn't help enough

[upbeat geyser]

god help me, what weapon are you using? I'll get it more if you say plasma gun

[bitter turtle]

v7

already oneshots gunn er w/o crit

[tall torrent]

even if I'm running laspistol I still wouldn't consider reciprocity for crit chance, and if I had to juice crit chance there's no way I'd consider it over the deadshot + duck & dive combo

[junior needle]

I think what he's trying to tell you is that consistent breakpoints>>>>inconsistent breakpoints, and you shouldn't build your weapon to rely on random one taps. For automatics crit is good yes, but this: #veteran-class message is an issue

You can always choose to aim for the head

[bitter turtle]

elite gunners dont proc it ye

[junior needle]

You cannot always choose to crit

[bitter turtle]

only trash gunners can proc

[tall torrent]

it only works at the very start of the stream of gunfire

[bitter turtle]

i dont think so

[tall torrent]

afaik?

[bitter turtle]

it doesnt work period last i checked

[tall torrent]

unfortunate

[junior needle]

Shooters are the chaffe

[tall torrent]

lemme change that in my document

[junior needle]

Gunners are the elites

Reapers dont work with it either

[tall torrent]

I thought the very start could proc ghost + reciprocity

[junior needle]

(I call them shooters although the name varies)

[bitter turtle]

that one for sur eno

i have videos

sec

[tall torrent]

yea and it had 1 stack going iirc

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIm_mAeX1_k

no

for trash shooters yea

not for elite gunners

even if i proc it before they start shooting and catch the startup of their gunfire

[tall torrent]

very unfortunate

[bitter turtle]

someone actually asked that which is why i recorded this seprately lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfYNbFsCIVw

for normal shooters

you have to catch the initial startup of their volleys

otherwise it doesnt work either

so maybe you were thinking of that

[tall torrent]

in an actual game you'd prob need to get shot into a beehive before dodge blessings give you enough stacks of reciprocity to matter

[bitter turtle]

yeah i dropped it from laspistol builds after i saw this

it does not work nearly as well as i hoped it would lol

🦆 and 🤿 funnily enough

doesnt have this problem

u dont need to catch the initial startup

it only has an internal cooldown on proc

so that still works

[junior needle]

Can confirm, dnd is unscuffed

Or it was last I checked

[bitter turtle]

so idk why they kneecap recip on purpose

lol

[upbeat geyser]

You just run to the side of them, get max stacks and unpin your team with stripped down

[tall torrent]

using stripped down to proc reciprocity is not nearly as effective as using stripped down for duck & dive memes to maintain deadshot

[upbeat geyser]

you can do both if you really want. Bit with a plasma gun you don't need to because its that strong

[tall torrent]

and reciprocity doesn't active vs elite shooters likt the vids shown there

[upbeat geyser]

they don't sprint or dodge

[tall torrent]

yea it's strong, it still has to build for non-crit breakpoints

[junior needle]

Yeah you want consistency

Unless you can guarantee crits like with surgical

It's better to not hope you crit for breakpoints

[bitter turtle]

i have ghost activte

its a dodge state

just like sprinting

you stragiht up cannot proc it against elite gunners

[upbeat geyser]

and they took off your armor entirely. Put stripped down on a gun and run in a game. You will be fine

[bitter turtle]

i think u miss the point of that video

i was testing if recip can proc from ghost dodges

and if recip can proc from ghost dodges against elites

[upbeat geyser]

how are you dodging if all your toughness went away

[bitter turtle]

because ghost l asts 1.2 seconds lol

you can see on the initial volley that they are not hitting me

https://youtu.be/nIm_mAeX1_k?t=10

[upbeat geyser]

I literally don't give a shit. Try it in a game. It will work

[bitter turtle]

https://youtu.be/nIm_mAeX1_k?t=2

[tall torrent]

this reminds me that I forgot to add the 3s internal cooldown to Duck & Dive's description

[upbeat geyser]

another thing stripped down will activate making you immortal to ranged

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvVt8vDLt24

u literally

cannot proc recip

on elites

here

[tall torrent]

we should prob report it as a bug tbh

[bitter turtle]

i dont think it is a bug

they dont make the dodge sound

right?

[tall torrent]

there's no way this isn't a bug right?

[bitter turtle]

i think its intentional

since u'd stack anything dodge related to max instnatly

[upbeat geyser]

sum total of zero dodges, do you even have stripped down on the gun?

[tall torrent]

I mean it's hilarious if it's actually intentional

[bitter turtle]

i cant tell if ur trolling anymore

[upbeat geyser]

I can't tell if you had a stroke so that makes us even

[bitter turtle]

i did

call 911 pls

[tall torrent]

the latest video has him sprint with stamina sideways vs gunner waves with a melee weapon

[upbeat geyser]

nah

[tall torrent]

that counts as dodging ranged attacks

it built 0 reciprocity stacks

[upbeat geyser]

do it in a fucking game

[bitter turtle]

why

is the psykarium sekretly bugged

also i cant go on the talent screen

ingame

so im sure ur gonna tell me

i actually took off recip

[granite sand]

https://tenor.com/view/took-that-personally-its-personal-gif-25993344

[upbeat geyser]

I don't care. I have my buffs under my crosshair. I know what's on in a game

shit someone elses video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brDXGkTsCDg

[granite sand]

Hey Goofballs, all well and good to disagree with your fellow player but rule 1 exists for a reason. No sense in cursing someone out.

[upbeat geyser]

ok, who accused who of bad faith first

[bitter turtle]

I didn't?

[granite sand]

Discussing is cool, just best to be respectful adults

[upbeat geyser]

I must be trolling right because I couldnt be serious

Kitchen heat stay out of

[granite sand]

Remember it’s all about a video game

Not that serious

Being respectful and mature is way more important than being correct

[bitter turtle]

i asked bc you're literally saying im not dodging when im dodging on video lol

boolet go through me

0 dmg

anyway

i did it in real game too

because im that accomodtaing

https://youtu.be/GlzgpWgKqBU?t=3

no recip stacks

and it took a long ass time

to actually find something to dodge

bc the fuckign bots kept killing shit

but here

https://youtu.be/GlzgpWgKqBU?t=50

proof i have recip in video

did both spacebar dodge and sprinting dodge

it does not work

to activate recip

[upbeat geyser]

thank you for showing me everything I need to know about how you play. Conversation over

[junior needle]

You don't need stripped down to get dodge states to your sides, it's a natural part of sprinting with stamina up on every class by default. Reapers and gunner elites currently aren't proccing reciprocity from firing at you, no matter what method you use to obtain a dodge state.

Basic shooters can do it, just not very consistently compared to melee attacks. I also agree, there's no need to be rude. Especially when people are providing video evidence to you and you're not doing the same to back up what you're saying.

[tall torrent]

So I think I'm probably right in saying CQKZ is the better pick here? No objections on that?

[upbeat geyser]

Literally posted a video by the first person to do all greys no talents auric maelstorm

[timid otter]

Oh fuck off with tanner

[bitter turtle]

you know

[upbeat geyser]

Did you do that?

[timid otter]

Idc what unique dumbass challenge he did

[bitter turtle]

he doesnt proc recip

[junior needle]

Yeah, assuming that is true, that doesn't make everything he says in a video accurate or correct.

[bitter turtle]

in that video either right

he's literally just saying stripped down gud

[timid otter]

No but ive soloed auric damnations, maelstroms multiple times

Does that make me the arbiter of opinion?

[bitter turtle]

which is one of his better takes ngl

[timid otter]

No!

[bitter turtle]

but yeah

show me where he procs recip in that vid lol

[upbeat geyser]

so you guys didn't watch the video, cool

[bitter turtle]

https://youtu.be/brDXGkTsCDg?t=33

so much recip

[junior needle]

Most reasonable tanner fan

[bitter turtle]

as in fucking 0

https://i.gyazo.com/5da3ad27fbd6f02a8de6bb9d961623bc.jpg

[tall torrent]

guess I am

[bitter turtle]

ffs at least watch your own video

[upbeat geyser]

yeah, you guys don't think crits have value. You're so smart

[junior needle]

Reci can work good in melee for certain weapons

[tall torrent]

yea knife / tac axe, I said at very beginning

[junior needle]

No one has said that

[junior needle]

I haven't been reading the whole conversation

[upbeat geyser]

but no said that right?

[tall torrent]

[tired hornet]

Oh! Knife is easy. Just sprint around and deal zero damage.

[bitter turtle]

rude

knife fun

[tired hornet]

it is fun

[bitter turtle]

anyway

[upbeat geyser]

press space for 5% crit chance stacking. I don't think I will

[bitter turtle]

still waiting for the recip procs on his video

its funny

[upbeat geyser]

[bitter turtle]

u cant even blame this on tanner

[junior needle]

Telling you that reci works very inconsistently against ranged attacks and saying that crits are unreliable for breakpoint purposes =/= saying crits have no value

[bitter turtle]

cause he doesnt even show it proccing recip

idk if he claimed it in video tho

[tall torrent]

come tear it apart

[bitter turtle]

oh yeah

i had one thing

[tall torrent]

god dammit

[bitter turtle]

infil should be great too 😔

[tall torrent]

wat is it again

[bitter turtle]

at least if u rate exec great

i swear

infil gud

[tall torrent]

I dropped it to "good"

[bitter turtle]

ok

fine

fair

then nvm

oh yeah

[tall torrent]

I was kinda hesitant on dropping trench fighter from great to good but then the army of melee vets would prob tear me apart

[bitter turtle]

is rending strikes below comp urge really sensible

[upbeat geyser]

That's something else as a spreadsheet. Its better than the I move like someone with one leg video

[late hatch]

yelling at enemies best tactic

[bitter turtle]

i mean i think there is way more builds that take rending strikes rather than comp

[tall torrent]

ehhhh I might put them on same tier at most but the way I see it is

rending strikes only really help vs stuff ur weapons really struggle in, and you most likely will (or at the very least should) bring 2 weapons that compliment each others' weaknesses in terms of ADM

[bitter turtle]

yeah, but rending is another source of reaching bps

a lot of weapons use it no?

[tall torrent]

yes but it's also like the worst way you can reach breakpoints

[junior needle]

I'd rate it "mediocre" personally, especially compared to scriers gaze and PBB

[bitter turtle]

against maniac specialists there's not many other options on the tree though

for guns at least

you have precision strikes and rending strikes, that's about it

[tall torrent]

I don't wanna piss off the 10 people still running exe stance MG12s in auric mael

[junior needle]

They're only 10 people, I'm sure you'll be safe

[tall torrent]

and it is a very sizeable boost
I realized that as I read what it actually did

[timid otter]

Exe stance still brings bps, suppresion immunity, reduced spread, vision of enemies.

[tall torrent]

there are so many buffs associated with it

[junior needle]

25% damage is good but

It doesn't compare to voc or even stealth

[timid otter]

Its still outdone by shout but what isnt

[tall torrent]

yea there is
you can always tag specialists

[upbeat geyser]

Marksman focus niche. lmao

[tall torrent]

tag enjoyer wins again

[tall torrent]

niche is not equal to bad

[bitter turtle]

lul

[tall torrent]

niche is "think before u take"

[junior needle]

The big issue is its usability. Both pbb and scrier also work if you change weapons.

[bitter turtle]

if you drop both down to be the same, ig its fine

i just think ive like

never seen comp urge on a single build since the last tree rework

[upbeat geyser]

its a near constant but variable damage buff. Its so easy to get

[bitter turtle]

and the only reason ppl took it before was because it was competing against born leader

[timid otter]

I dont find i really struggle to much with this component on most weapons i bring it.

Im not aiming to use a melee weapon alot if i bring exe stance

[junior needle]

Are you shooting melee chaffe to defend yourself or something?

[upbeat geyser]

you just shot have to headshot. Niche when someone claims they're hitting weakspots mostly. Mein gott. It might not be true

[tall torrent]

Yea and tag is 8% (15.5% with RF) which is more applicable and helps whole team

I don't think saying Marksman's Focus is smth u want to think abt before taking is wrong

[bitter turtle]

ciag/knife user: yes

[timid otter]

Nah dodges, positioning

Shooting them can be an option too

[dusty nacelle]

This is how stealth knife vets get snacks

[timid otter]

Eventually melee has to be pulled out but by that point Exe stance has likely anyways done its thing.

[upbeat geyser]

you just have to headshot. Its what you should be trying to do anyway, like dodging. Its like you people give advice for aliens

[junior needle]

Turns out finesse bonuses work in a dumb manner in this game and are inferior to damage bonuses

[tall torrent]

I hope you understand that +75% finesse dmg is not actually +75% damage

[upbeat geyser]

You just have to spray into the hoard for a 2 seconds and you are at max stacks

Or just pay attention at all

[junior needle]

You just have to spray into the hoard
Look at this guy giving advice for aliens, take out your melee weapon you ammo waster.

[austere mica]

Yeah but Tag is fun for the whole adoptive family and gives toughness back

[upbeat geyser]

You won't be at max stacks all the time but that's fine its a constant buff

[junior needle]

Constant doesn't mean it's active sometimes

[upbeat geyser]

I'm sorry the tutorial never explained how to pick ammo

[tall torrent]

which I think I did mention? You can maintain above 5 stacks fairly easily

did u actually read everything I wrote

[upbeat geyser]

Its the easiest thing in the world to maintain, you can't go wrong. niche

[junior needle]

Considering most keystones are even easier, that's a factually incorrect statement

Compare to momentum

[rigid pilot]

It's fine I'm sure the other 3 team members should be able to carry decently

[tall torrent]

I think you're just trying to twist my words here when I've already said niche in my definition is "think before you take"

whereas the other 2 keystones are just much more general purpose

[upbeat geyser]

What could be more general purpose that shooting head shots for more damage, focus target is more niche because you're expecting your team to do something with that

[junior needle]

But how am I going to farm outrage unless I strawman people about things they've said in writing in front of me

[tall torrent]

go read what focus target actually does then, it's right on the next page

[austere mica]

You can also use Tag for yourself

It is inherently a team buff but you happen to be part of the team

[upbeat geyser]

maybe you should call a mod because a disagreement happened

[tall torrent]

If an enemy you tagged dies within 4s after being tagged, gain 1 stack upon their death.
• This means that if you’re rapidly tagging enemies & killing them, all of your tags will be at 2 stacks (+8% dmg).

I hope u knew this was a thing

and yes, this is not just in psykhanium, it's also in actual games

[upbeat geyser]

does it want my teammates to do anything. would I do more with marksman if they do nothing

[austere mica]

Its also 10% toughness if you take that Subkeystone

[tall torrent]

yea ik that

[austere mica]

and stamina but nobody remembers that

[tall torrent]

stamina is nice for deadshot

[austere mica]

Listing for the other goober

[timid otter]

Deadshot users

[frank basin]

9 stamina

For Deadshot

On recon

[junior needle]

Strawmans me to call him being openly rude and strawmanning as "disagreement"

[upbeat geyser]

feel free to call a mod to defend your honor

[tall torrent]

no it doesn't need teammates to do anything
also no marksman focus won't meaningfully outclass it (at least for a lot of weapons) if teammates don't do anything

[upbeat geyser]

marksman, nearly always on. Focus target not always on. Have to spend time to get max value

[tall torrent]

think someone did dmg comparison between full marksman focus stacks vs tag and the difference was pretty small

[tall torrent]

again, incorrect

focus target maintains a minimum refresh of 2 stacks

you don't want to withhold stacks in 90% situations

[austere mica]

Walking 5 steps removes all of your marksmans focus

I will use it eventually

[tall torrent]

also no

takes 10 seconds to drop from full to 0

[junior needle]

Well if you insist

[tired hornet]

At this point you’re just mad that he’s right and can back up his talk. He’s pointing out you’re starting to straw man him and you think you’re actually upsetting him? Give it a rest man

[austere mica]

But i need to play everyone else before I subject myself to a non plasma point and click adventure

[tall torrent]

it's decently lenient

[austere mica]

Oh neat

[tall torrent]

yea check the document I posted above

@austere mica

[austere mica]

I always assumed it was really fast given it never shows a value and everyone shits on it constantly

[tall torrent]

it drops 1 stack per second in movement

[timid otter]

My opinion of markmans focus has decreased the longer ive been using veterans talent tree

[upbeat geyser]

Its garbage for people who think they're helping the team. Unless you're a plasma gun guy deleting bosses

[timid otter]

Its highly relitant on specific weapons, does not at all confer bonuses to melee, can be extremely inconsistent in maintaining the stacks and is often just a win more.

[rigid pilot]

Yea it's mostly a win more, hard to get value when you actually need it to perform

Like vs bosses for example, unless you are a god that can keep headshoting bosses without dropping any stacks

[frank basin]

I’m shit aiming

My vision just bad

[opaque kayak]

Is reciprocity gunner thing new with last patch?

[frank basin]

Without glasses or dlss

[tall torrent]

I’m not very sure tbh

[junior needle]

No, it's been happening for a long time now.

[opaque kayak]

Oh okay. I guess better to take d&d and do movement tech.

[tired hornet]

This is really handy. I'm not big on the whole math side of things, mostly just hang out, shitpost, and try and get better at DT, so this is a big help.

[tired ember]

@upbeat geyser Please do not act so antagonistically, it's unnecessary. We're all adults here.

[upbeat geyser]

feel free to read the conversation

[tired ember]

I did.

[upbeat geyser]

really though?

[tired ember]

Yup.

[tall torrent]

❤️

[upbeat geyser]

ok of the two of us who said something antagonistic first

[austere mica]

And who decided to perpetuate it, nobody here is right but one of you is more wrong

[tired ember]

If you have someone to report, please send me a message link.

[upbeat geyser]

Kitchen heat, handle

[late hatch]

discord server is not your kitchen

[upbeat geyser]

so that's a I don't know someone came crying and I don't care shut up

[late hatch]

be nice is number 1 rule

[tall torrent]

I was right

[upbeat geyser]

fine

[tired ember]

uh huh. I'm timing you out for rule one. Have a nice day.

[tall torrent]

Oh ffs I forgot to put credits in
Whatever I’ll do it when I eventually add veteran baseline stats & weapon related stuff

[austere mica]

I just assume nobody is right always and have somewhere near a 90% accuracy

[timid otter]

You are wrong its less then 90%

[junior needle]

He was going on for quite a bit unnecessarily before anyone said anything

I think it was a generous allowance that it got that far

[tired hornet]

Be careful man, someone was behaving like Goofballs in Zealot Chat once and the guy ended up making an entire video calling them out.

[austere mica]

Guh?

[frank basin]

Lol

[tall torrent]

Also just did some testing with focus target vs marksman’s focus

I’m gonna assume a baseline consistency of 2 stacks focus target (minimum refresh) and 5 stacks marksman’s focus (easy to maintain in combat)

Tested with Mk2 Laspistol on scab gunner (fire team + 5% ranged dmg are the only +dmg talents I took, no 15% elite, no flak or elite perk) because it’s one of the better weapons with marksman’s focus

Focus target: 752 crit HS, 458 regular HS
Marksman’s focus: 873 crit HS, 523 regular HS

Marksman’s focus is visibly higher but not so much higher that the results change breakpoints by a very significant margin

[late hatch]

just found this on steam community

[timid otter]

Thats also about as good as it gets

Laspistol has among the highest finesse modifers compared to other ranged weapons

[tall torrent]

Now, if we do
MF 10 stacks
Vs FT 2 stacks + RF 5 stacks

MF 10 stacks
1049 crit HS
622 reg HS

FT2 + RF5
837 crit HS
489 reg HS

It is a lot higher and now there actually is a breakpoint difference
MF 10 stacks would be able to 2HS scab gunner

But remember that this test purposefully took off most +dmg talents available

[bitter turtle]

i recorded vids 3 times to show recip doesnt work with sprinting

even went in a real game off his request

😔

some people just don't appreciate the work I put in

[tall torrent]

If we do normal build with +dmg talents (both +5% ranged dmg, precision strikes, superiority complex)

MF 10 stacks
1200 (possibly higher) crit HS = 1 shot kill
796 reg HS = 2 shot kill

FT2 + RF5
1092 crit HS = 2 shot kill
655 reg HS = 2 shot kill

[bitter turtle]

its pottery that he linked a tanner vid tho

[frank basin]

What? That guy again?

💀

[tall torrent]

Which, if I had +20~25% flak on my laspistol, the crit HS breakpoint you get from MF10 can be achieved with FT2 + RF5 with much better uptime consistency

So yea I don’t think I’m in any wrong in saying marksman’s focus is “think before you take”

[bitter turtle]

ive found the problem with MF is that i need such a high number of stacks to do what focus target can't, that its just not reliable

like MF can give me dreg rager 1s on v7 but i need like literally 10 stacks

its not hard to float around 5-6 but it doesnt actually do anything then

meanwhile i can just take FT for free stam

idk maybe is skill issue in the end

[frank basin]

MF kinda need constant get stack to get benefit

Every move lose the stack, I don’t pick it.

[tall torrent]

I wish you could stack it with just weakpoint hits (but internal cooldown so you don’t stack insanely fast with high RoF guns)

The fact that you have to weakspot kill makes it a lot less reliable when you’re fighting bosses and larger targets

[frank basin]

Recon would do that fast

[tall torrent]

Internal cooldown

[frank basin]

Just saying

[tall torrent]

Yea, internal cooldown would fix that

Somewhere like 0.4s would be ok

That’s MG12’s firerate (150rpm)

You can’t stack it faster than 0.4s per stack, but you can weakspot hit to gain stacks

Would make it a lot more intuitive to play, no?

[frank basin]

That up to FS decision

I have no control the game

[tall torrent]

Just an idea

[junior needle]

Some people appreciate your work, but with meanie words

[late hatch]

Appreciate like a commissar appreciates his troops lives.

[junior needle]

I'd consider taking it if it were weakspot hits

[tall torrent]

same

[junior needle]

Any automatic would do it fast, recons are still the among the least benefited

Goofus sent me a flattering message

[tall torrent]

The reciprocity guy?

[junior needle]

Yes

The guy who was being unpleasant

[tall torrent]

What did he say

[junior needle]

The world filter won't let me say it in quotes so I guess I can just post a picture

[tall torrent]

lol

[midnight mortar]

Such anger over something so small. Impressive.

Imagine being this mad at being wrong.

[tall torrent]

Btw would appreciate it you can get any warden to pin the pdf document I posted

This one

[junior needle]

You can just ping them I'm pretty sure

I sent that message to a mod but the guy went to sleep I think

[tall torrent]

That’s fine no rush

[junior needle]

The message as in this one that is

[tall torrent]

<@&735928989146939404> appreciate it if one of you guys could pin this

[woeful junco]

Glad to see vet players have finally learned how to read. good job on the first infantryman's uplifting primer!

[tall torrent]

Not the first but won’t be the last

[shadow dagger]

tanner lindberg jumpscare

[bitter turtle]

btw

do you(as in anyone reading this familiar with knife shenanigans) think its worth listing flesh tearer mk6 knife as an option

it actually bleeds infested poxwalkers to death on heavies with like 2 ticks

which is like kinda

okay

you can kill like 3 at once

if you heavy crit and back off

[junior needle]

It wouldn't be as good as zealot due to vet not critfishing nearly as hard/easily

[bitter turtle]

for sure

but idk

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ODLXP5sISxrcvXpaH1rXYTjDzHf0Ac243SZwqqg17M/edit

this is what i have right now

listing uncanny + riposte/precog/mercy as options for both

i think flesh tearer is straight up not worth on mk3

but on mk6 when i tested stuff it was actually like

kinda ok

if your goal is to mince poxwalkers

but only in that role and used tha tway

it still seems awfully niche though

[junior needle]

Yeah vet is better off just going for breakpoints on chaffe

[bitter turtle]

and wasnt much better than just running riposte vs denser hordes with scab/dreg fighters in them

[tall torrent]

Tbh if I consider “horde clear” I basically exclusively focus on bruiser performance

[junior needle]

Bleed setups require you to exist in a horde for longer

And there's much better options than a knife for that

If you're playing the ranged eliminator

You don't want to get stuck in and bleed everything, you want to get the clearing done and go back to shooting

[tall torrent]

Anything that kills bruiser well will deal with poxers well
But not every weapon that minces poxers can deal with bruisers efficiently

Part of why I think overkill dmg is not that great of a measurement of weapon performance because like

Rashad 1 headshot scab bruiser is 625 unarmored dmg, that’s already 325 more than a groaner’s health

Meaning if I swing it once and kill 4 groaners, that’s gonna be 1.3k overkill dmg already

[junior needle]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that

Although you could argue an excess of damage is better than a lack of

[shadow dagger]

not a columnus iag vet running out of ammo 3 times in an auric maelstrom and spamming the need ammo callout yet refusing to pull out his melee for anything less than a crusher

😟

is this what having a powersword does to a mf

[junior needle]

Those types are usually using a recon lasgun

At least he's using a gun that can actually kill things and has better ammo efficiency

[tall torrent]

I have a meme build with smokes + graia4 braced for melk’s ranged kill contracts

[bitter turtle]

well

if anyone else has any more objections to anything i wrote pls tell

i edited it down further for brevity

[shadow dagger]

got a columnus iag with 50ish stability, does it get much better than this recoil wise

it feels so odd without exe stance

[bitter turtle]

try crouching

it helps control the recoil on it

while you shoot

[shadow dagger]

oh

yeah that solves it

[bitter turtle]

ya

i crouch a lot when i played ciag

for long range shots

is part of why i switch to graia

cba sometimes

[junior needle]

You could include a disclaimer for mercy killer than it only activates on the second hit of a target

Also, a disclaimer than flesh tearer/lacerate is bad

Or just one for lacerate

[bitter turtle]

I had that for mercy killer

actually

but i took it out

i felt like

maybe it was unfair to it

its not like i mention you have to doge first for recip

i could put it back in though

and lmao

i tried not to go into "this sucks" but maybe

[junior needle]

It can be worth noting the place of significantly underperforming blessings

Because undoubtedly people are gonna ask about that

[bitter turtle]

i might just note that bleed blessings are not that good on Veteran because of hte lack of bleed synergy on the tree, unlike zealot

ill let zealot chat deal with ppl asking if lacerate gud ( on zealot )

if they read it

[junior needle]

Lacerate is just uh

not good in general

[bitter turtle]

Yeah I know

but

[junior needle]

Zealot chat is already overwhelmed by lacerate enjoyers

[bitter turtle]

im trying to avoid too much "but the solo player used it"

at least if i deflect "yeah but they were playing zealot" ppl will have nothing to say

rather than explaining that solo environment =/= normal gameplay

[torpid pier]

ahhhhhhhhhhh i want my power cycler tier 4 already

what the hell is wrong with that blessing

no matter how much time and currency I throw at the game it just doesn't appear

https://tenor.com/view/parks-and-rec-ron-swanson-screaming-scream-screams-gif-21763857

speaking of which, I just logged in and threw away currency at Psword gamba got nothing and quit the game. 10/10 experience, would recommend

ah sweet summer child

back when i saw the world in bright colors

[junior needle]

Welcome to darktide crafting

It's purposefully designed that way for """"""""""player retention""""""""" purposes

[torpid pier]

pain

[late hatch]

man I just love knife players who run ahead, get downed, then alt f4 coz they cant handle the shame

[junior needle]

I lagged out, got a 2001 error, and disconnected playing zealot today

I just know they thought I went down and left

Thankfully I was able to reconnect and finish the mission

[late hatch]

nah this player was full sprinting ahead, ignoring all plas etc and just headlong into the next group of enemies, then lake 2/3rds through they were super deep and went down surrounded by all kinds of elites and stuff and they dc then didnt come back, stuck with a bot so pretty sure it was the old alt f4

not a low level either lol

[junior needle]

When I explore it's for grabbing all the resources and not to fight things on my own

Apparently this puts me in the top 20% of zealot players at least

[late hatch]

yeah i dont mind sprinty players who hoover the map and pay attention to team mates, but when they just sprint ahead and half the time just end up sitting at the next elevator waiting for a min while everyone else catches up its just like, why are you even playing a coop game at that point?

plenty of single player games if you dont actually like team work

[austere pine]

i started leveling another vet just so i can roll for pc4 more efficiently

[torpid pier]

can't blame you, this is pure pain and agony

My currency no longer have any value since I know they will just be flushed down the toilet at the end of the day looking for IV power cycler with 0 results

[austere pine]

now imagine you're looking for 3 blessings across 3 classes

[torpid pier]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-clueless-clueless-emote-wojak-disturbed-gif-24266075

[dire olive]

Don't worry it only took me like 1000hrs of playtime before getting PC4

[austere pine]

technically across 2 classes but point stands

lvl 4 nexus for psyker on 3 staves, surge, pc4 for vet

[rigid pilot]

Psyker staves are real easy because they only have like 3 blessings at tier4

Trying to get headhunter on lasguns like

[formal quail]

invis vet is the most selfish class change my mind

(you can't)