veteran-class

[somber axle]

yeah like 70 damage stat and 80 damage stat on recon, columnus and a lot of other guns is like 5 less damage per shot and doesn't matter because you're spraying so fast the real damage is coming from perks, blessings and your talent set up

[white minnow]

https://streamable.com/wwbyct

[bitter turtle]

no

[somber axle]

but it is very important for things like lucius guns to have high damage/stopping power to get their break points

[bitter turtle]

its hte opposite

[timid otter]

Finding a bp isnt that hard

[somber axle]

especially mk II

[bitter turtle]

for automatics, damage as high as possible matters

[timid otter]

Its considering which ones are worth keeping which is the hard part

[bitter turtle]

because they arent as bp reliant, every little bit of damage will easily translate to 1 less bullet used

[somber axle]

can you really notice the difference between 5 less damage per shot on a time to kill for a crusher

[bitter turtle]

going by your logic

you might as well not take any damage talents on the tree

[somber axle]

no?

[bitter turtle]

you won't notice each individually anyway!

yes

superiority complex adds literally like 5 dmg per bullet

meaningless right?

[somber axle]

just that the last 10% of damage really isn't that big of a deal and I can show it too

[white minnow]

depends but yeah i agree that you only really need as much damage as you need to hit a bp

[somber axle]

one sec I can screenshot funny weapons

[bitter turtle]

yes, but where do you draw the line then lol

[somber axle]

where breakpoints are

[white minnow]

really just a matter of how much effort you want to put into testing it

[bitter turtle]

each individual damage increase doesn't make a big increase no

that doesnt mean damage increases are meaningless

might as well cut out superiority complex, only 15% = 5 damage or so on bullet

[somber axle]

like on a Lucius Mk II you need high enough damage stat + unarmoured to hit the breakpoint on gunners to one tap them in the head

[bitter turtle]

why not cut out precision strikes too

only 5 dmg per bullet or so

[somber axle]

and I'm like almost certain 80 damage isn't going to make or break that break point vs a 70 damage stat on a lucius mk 2

[bitter turtle]

that's for a semi auto

which sure

[somber axle]

because unarmoured perk and your talent set up will be more worth

[bitter turtle]

its just not realistic to test it for each individual semi auto gun

and why not have damage higher just as a buffer anyway

it might let you take 1 less talent

[somber axle]

wdym test it for each gun

it's easy to just go into the psykanium and see a gun with 70 damage vs 80 damage

and even see it in the weapon inspect

[stable socket]

1. Except against bosses, damage is only valuable if it lets you hit breakpoints that you care about
2. The problem is that there are a lot of breakpoints in this game that you may or may not care about

[somber axle]

yeah

[stable socket]

also boss damage is always nice to have

[bitter turtle]

this hypothetical "damage is a dump stat" narrative means you would need to figure out the minimum damage rating needed for every single gun so you can put a 10 extra points in mobility so you have 0.000001 more dodge distance

no thanks

ill just run my high dmg guns and 50 mobility

[stable socket]

you can also look at it the other way: mobility is only valuable if it lets you dodge a hit you'd otherwise not be able to dodge

how frequently are you gonna get value out of that? my guess is extremely infrequently

[somber axle]

I didn't say damage is a dump stat, I said you were both right in that each stat matters but not nearly to the degree you need damage maxed 100% of the time on all weapons and you don't need mobility maxed 100% of the time on every weapon either

[bitter turtle]

i didnt say damage must be 80

[somber axle]

it's just break points

[bitter turtle]

i said damage is not a dump stat

even less so on automatics

[somber axle]

I've only said 70 damage vs 80 damage is not important for the vast majority of scenarios for making break points and perks/blessings will matter more

[bitter turtle]

we werent talking about perks/blessings though

we are talking about whether you should run 80 mobility and 50 dmg or 50 mobility and 80 dmg lol

[somber axle]

if you have a 370 ilvl weapon and it has 70 damage + all the perks and blessings you want, and you toss it, it really isn't that big of a difference unless it really is missing out on a break point

[stable socket]

70 vs 80 depends on the gun

[somber axle]

I was though

[idle swallow]

if u tryin to move fast yer a coward

[bitter turtle]

also again, 70 vs 80 dmg

[old quail]

most weapons also have multiple damage stats

[bitter turtle]

is dependent on weapon

you wanna know

my rashad 80/80/79 dmg/finesse/first target

misses a bp

by 1 dmg

[misty vigil]

this is funny to me

[somber axle]

hold the line soldier 🫡

[stable socket]

aren't there some plasma oneshots that need very close to perfect? otherwise you have to add extra help

[bitter turtle]

that would have been covered by 1 more first target lmao

[somber axle]

yeah and that's an example of a moment where that matters

[bitter turtle]

#veteran-class message

[somber axle]

but that is not every scenario

[bitter turtle]

lmao

sure

but literally nobody said dmg must be at 80 or unusable weapon

[somber axle]

yeah plasma is one of the weapons where you want damage as high as possible + good perks

[somber axle]

I did and we've been talking in circles ever since

but I wanna show my funniest flashlight

the best flashlight ever

[dawn garnet]

HOW

[somber axle]

the emperor gives many strange gifts

[dawn garnet]

and why did you change the perks

[somber axle]

to make it funnier

[bitter turtle]

also

https://i.gyazo.com/00731ee89ce261febcb625bab57934ce.png

50 vs 80 stat ciag

i think 60 dmg is a pretty fucking big difference

[somber axle]

I didn't even say 50 damage but go on

anyway look at the difference between a 0% vs an 80%

it's funny

[dawn garnet]

the emperor gives his brickiest helbores to his silliest vets

[bitter turtle]

70 dmg loses you 30 dmghttps://i.gyazo.com/c9a4e5f1713573a76d272ba0081cc44e.png

70 stat

u still lose 30 dmg

pretty big difference

for an automatic

quite literally around the difference between having/not having precision strikes on the tree

[somber axle]

I'd say it's not when you're spraying into a target because the target dying in 3.5 seconds vs 3.7 seconds in practice doesn't matter

record time to kill on both weapons

I bet the time doesn't change much if at all

[bitter turtle]

about 100 less dps

and as i said

by that logic

[somber axle]

yeah and how does that translate to actual time to kill?

[bitter turtle]

u can drop every dmg buff

because each one only adds 0.2 seconds anyway

or whatever the ttk would be

im not saying a 70 dmg ciag is unusable btw

[somber axle]

you can kinda just run with a grey CIAG anyway and still absolutely destroy things since it's our silliest weapon right now

[bitter turtle]

im saying an 80 dmg one is obviously better in a meaningful way

sure

that's just the gun being op

that doesnt mean higher dmg isnt meaningfully better

nobody said you can't clear with a grey one or a 70 dmg one

[somber axle]

I have no idea what you are arguing for but the emperor provides the funniest weapons

[bitter turtle]

again, by that logic, i might as well drop superiority complex

and then i might as well drop precision strikes

each one is only 0.2 seconds anyway

[somber axle]

I mean you can do what you want in your games

someone recommended 3 stamina curios before with deadshot + duck and dive and I thought running toughness curios gave me so much more survivability but then I tried out his build and found that it makes my recon 6 extra silly and the extra stamina for not getting hit/blocking made survivability better on everything except gunners which I'm dodging anyway

and that's a bigger difference than rerolling brunt's to get a perfect 80 damage stat recon

[bitter turtle]

at no point did someone suggest that dedicating 3 curios and 2 stat points on a tree to increasing your dmg is going to make a smaller difference than 10 stat points

[somber axle]

plus it's extra funny with infernus to just fire a short burst into a gunner and then stop shooting, and watch the gunner run behind cover and burn to death 2 seconds later

yeah I'm just showing all the other scenarios where talents, perks, blessings and really anything else matters more for TTK on most things vs 10 more in damage stat

there are definitely niche moments where you need that damage as high as possible to hit your break points but it really isn't that important

as long as you have your break points, your time to kill is the same as anyone else

[bitter turtle]

you're comparing quite literally altering your entire build to accomodate a buff for your gun vs 10 stat points

its really not a fair comparison lol

again, its numerically roughly as meaningful as taking superiority complex on an automatic

you can take that as you will

[somber axle]

that's fair and the number being higher will help hit break points but beyond that it doesn't matter

and that's really all I've said

[stable orbit]

guys if I stack all the grenade dmg boosts I can hit 410 dmg frags against crushers

[somber axle]

oh also the recon 6 is funny for 70 damage vs 80 damage

accidentally screenshotted the inspect screen in the wrong order

[stable socket]

small damage stat increases matter more frequently on fast guns than slow guns, because if you take 30 shots to kill something then a 3.3% damage increase will save you one shot whereas a 3.3% damage increase is not always going to change a 2-shot kill into a 1-shot kill

but breakpoint-enabling damage increases matter more on slow guns than fast guns, because the difference in TTK going from 2 shots to 1 is way more than going from 30 to 29

[somber axle]

I kinda want to roll a grey recon 6 with 70 damage now to test time to kill on both

[stable socket]

i actually have no idea how the damage stat works on guns without a separate penetration stat - does it affect both the base damage and the ADM?

[white minnow]

usually damage and unarmoured/infested adms

[stable socket]

so flak/carapace adms don't change with damage? that's wild

[white minnow]

usually separate yeah

brautos/iags/etc. have it on the stopping power stat

not that i've looked at the inspect card of the damage stat of a lot of weapons

[junior needle]

There's a mod for that

No need to roll

[stable socket]

it would be sad if weapons without stopping power/pen could never improve those

[junior needle]

They can't without rending

This is why recons are especially shit on gun psyker

[white minnow]

well weapons sticking with their original ADMs is a good thing because it means that they can have unique damage profiles that aren't just flattened to 100% and above by the existence of rending

[somber axle]

which mod?

[white minnow]

e.g., uncanny strike being BiS for the majority of weapons that have it

[stable socket]

being able to deal with armor is a big selling point for the weapons that have it

so... anything with uncanny strike really

[junior needle]

I think it's loadout config

You can find it in the modding discord

[white minnow]

2-3 shotting crushers truly is a selling point

and perhaps something that is out of hand

[stable socket]

onslaught on any fast firing weapon too

[white minnow]

even on fast-firing weapons onslaught is whatever

because it's still 16 hits to get to the max of 40%

2.5% per shot

[junior needle]

Rending does counter ranged falloff, which is very nice

[white minnow]

weapons being able to deal with armour should just be baked into its default ADMs instead of being tied to blessings/talents that flattens maniac/unyielding/flak/carapace to 100%

[somber axle]

thanks!

[junior needle]

Doesn't carapace only get flattened to 50%?

[white minnow]

X does this well against armour, and Y does this well against armour
and delete uncanny strike so that they both don't annihilate armour and can have distinct roles

[junior needle]

I remember a bunch of people saying that

50% supposedly being the cap before it gets turned into bonus at 1/4 the value

[white minnow]

should be 100% but i can go check rn

it did say something like that in the patch notes but i'm pretty sure i did some faffing about that revealed that it was the same

[junior needle]

https://tenor.com/view/richard-benjamin-harrison-pawn-stars-talk-bastards-those-bastard-lied-to-me-gif-17564603

[bitter turtle]

lied to about mf

now lied to about rending

[mystic surge]

Does anyone know which gun as the most suppression?

[junior needle]

For practical purposes probably a brauto

But don't take a gun just for suppression value

It can be very hit or miss in usefulness

[white minnow]

hmm yeah i don't know what this sentence means

but 100% adm still seems to be the cutoff for rending to have reduced effectiveness against carapace

tested with an mkv duelling sword

[gusty bison]

Maybe rending is 50% effectiveness vs cara?

[white minnow]

doesn't seem so

my mkv does 288 on a headshot w/o uncanny

and 662 with full stacks

[gusty bison]

Ok but whats the rending on full stackd

[white minnow]

which roughly lines up with the math with some inaccuracy prob due to rending

[gusty bison]

And whats the base damage vs unarmoured

[white minnow]

120%, but current rending is capped to 100%

the base damage vs unarmoured is 297 but that doesn't matter because we only care about the base damage period

[gusty bison]

Hum

[white minnow]

which happens to be 297 as well

[gusty bison]

Weird

[shadow dagger]

what does enhanced blitz actually do

[white minnow]

+2 nades

[shadow dagger]

is it just higher capacity for all of them or is there something else

[white minnow]

seems to just be +2 grenades for everyone except for brainburst and smite

and psyker gets -50% peril reduction for blitzes

[wide pike]

Do people even use smoke grenade?

[slow spade]

not in the past

now it's potentially useful

as its a lot lighter when pathing for Weapon Specialist

assuming it works now :p

[austere pine]

anybody notice chainsword 4 push attack being really fast for no reason?

[shadow dagger]

which one do i use

assuming i swap out hit n run for something else

[austere pine]

obviously the left one? idk what the question here is

same perks except left one is both lvl3

[hollow ibex]

full bore isn't great on kanty imo

but it's not awful either

i'd go with left and swap hit n run with no respite

[austere pine]

it's obviously not the perfect shotty, but keeping the perks lvl3 and possibly swapping both blessings to better stuff is good

[austere pine]

(not perfect shotty because it's a shotty)

[shadow dagger]

the question is whether the right's extra 5% on perks after the second refine and two t4 blessings is worth using over the left's better modifiers

idk i thought it was pretty up in the air

[junior needle]

I hate gunpsykers

[drowsy kayak]

thank you hadron very cool

[austere pine]

the left has better stats all around and isn't modified at all. the 5% loss on one and same perk for the other isn't as big of a difference as having 2 good blessings of your choice is

[austere pine]

no way hadron didn't brick it

[drowsy kayak]

yeah I was surprised too

now I just need to not brick it

[sacred spindle]

found in shop :3

now how will hadron brick it

[shadow aurora]

Based

[low yacht]

Can we get an AK-47 style autogun?

I don't mean an AK-12 copy.

Same platform but really.

Though the PPSH line has nice guns to go through. Beyond the original Russian weapon.

[shadow dagger]

c-i-vi is uhhh

an experience

[boreal wyvern]

Best MK6 Blessins

What should i rebless

[austere pine]

brutal momentum into pc4 i feel

wonderful shank btw

[boreal wyvern]

Only PC 3 Tho

[tall torrent]

No

BM > rampage

[austere pine]

HTER'ES NO PC4????

[thorn lark]

You want BM + power cycler

[boreal wyvern]

Just got back after months hiatus and the emprah has blessed my rolls

I read that MK6 is better than MK3 when it used to be the opposite

[thorn lark]

Mk6 has a hidden 25% block efficiency

Can block activate and 2 shot a crusher with push attack + l4

[junior needle]

cycler and either BM or sunder, both are good for different reasons

[boreal wyvern]

So should i change rampage to bm 3 ot sunder iv

Sunder iv it is then

[terse idol]

Rampage to pc4

HmmMMMmmMmm

No pc4, ywah probably

I dunno

[boreal wyvern]

No PC4 sadly 😦

Is the accatran VLD still busted ?

[austere pine]

😌 there is pc4, just not in the specific player's hand

[boreal wyvern]

I dont have PC4 yet

I know theres a PC 4

[austere pine]

yeah me neither

i was just scared people were gaslighting me into perma rolling for pc4

[boreal wyvern]

Bolter still meta ?

[austere pine]

gainst big bois sure

against hordes, almost literally anything is better

[junior needle]

Nope, it (and the already poorly performing other recons) were very substantially nerfed the next patch after the talent rework. There are however multiple guns that are as strong or stronger that have been allowed to remain so for multiple months now.

They are back to being dogshit.

Bolter is not meta no

[austere pine]

this a good gun at melk?

[junior needle]

Superceded by the newly buffed plasma (and also revolver)

[austere pine]

revolvers goated

[junior needle]

Not with those perks, stopping power, or raking fire

[austere pine]

that's a no

[boreal wyvern]

Whats good to use here

[austere pine]

toss it for dockets

[junior needle]

No, don't do that

Plasma is easily the best gun in the game atm if properly built

Ciag is very good

k12 isn't doing hot atm compared to the newly buffed 1a, but none of the lasguns are particularly impressive compared revolver, plasma, and ciag

[austere pine]

how's mk7 braced autogun?

i use it on my zealot and it feels good generally. is there a better choice for a zealot? either through braced or even infantry

[boreal wyvern]

whats ciag

[pliant sentinel]

columnus infantry autogun

[austere pine]

columbus infantry autogun

[boreal wyvern]

Columbus Infantry Auto Gun ?

[pliant sentinel]

[austere pine]

columbus

[pliant sentinel]

[clever niche]

No one here uses Agripinaa IaG?

[junior needle]

Agri is doing fine but doesn't stand out as much

Due to ciag having higher dps

[terse idol]

Ciag

'Ate it

Thus is the grandest issue with balance discussion

Because these guns exist

[pliant sentinel]

I just started using it

it's quite enjoyable

[junior needle]

All the IAG's are performing fairly well currently

[pliant sentinel]

Crazy to think that the most obsolete and inferior weapons platform in 40k is somehow the strongest in darktide

brainrot balancing

[proud marsh]

I guess?

Half the people we fight wear no appreciable armor

[pliant sentinel]

true

[midnight totem]

I mean

[proud marsh]

And the ones that do can be dealt with armor piercing ammo for autoguns, and enhanced charge packs for lasguns

[midnight totem]

Regular autoguns are very effective in 40k against most targets one would expect to shoot with them

[pliant sentinel]

I'm just used to fallout's balancing

in all honesty

[proud marsh]

ahh fallout

[pliant sentinel]

yeahhh

[proud marsh]

miss that game

love its take on laser weapons

[pliant sentinel]

laser weapons in fallout are ridiculous

[proud marsh]

Anything goes lol

[midnight totem]

Lasguns are much easier on the supply lines

[pliant sentinel]

that

[midnight totem]

Which is why they're default weapons of the guard

[clever niche]

What calibre would autoguns be?

[proud marsh]

Compared to lasguns laser weapons are more schizophrenic with 50+ different attachments

[pliant sentinel]

probably some 40k ripoff of 7.62x39

or 7.62 NATO

[midnight totem]

But there are plenty examples of guard regiments using autoguns, whether because they're undersupplied, or in specialist roles, or out of personal preference

[proud marsh]

There's like maybe 9 different Las rifles in game counting all variants

3 accatran

3 kantrael

3 lucius

[pliant sentinel]

hellbore

yep

[clever niche]

Casing looks much larger than that

[pliant sentinel]

7.62x51?

[clever niche]

Yeah

[pliant sentinel]

interesting

[proud marsh]

Could be a made up caliber

[pliant sentinel]

what about 30.06 then?

[proud marsh]

8mm or something

[clever niche]

Perhaps 6.8x51 or .338 Lapua Magnum

[midnight totem]

Def a made up caliber

The only standard we have is that

[pliant sentinel]

autoguns defo have 30.06 level recoil

[midnight totem]

Heavy stubbers are definitely. 50 cal

[clever niche]

It is M2 Browning

[pliant sentinel]

Yep

[proud marsh]

And propellant differences mean that it's definitely way more powerful for its size than it would be today

[midnight totem]

Maybe the achy is more like an mg42 but still

[pliant sentinel]

british ballistics go brrrrrrr

[clever niche]

This is fking massive cartridge

[junior needle]

Given how poorly they've been balanced for essentially the entirety of the game, they might as well not exist

[idle swallow]

boltgun standard issue for modern military when, def practical

basically full auto 400 nitro express except way bigger than that

[keen sedge]

which of the parry swords should i use?

[idle swallow]

Mk4 devil claw is the general community consensus for best among its peers

Easy to use moveset for either single target overheads or crowd sweeps

[tiny summit]

All comparable. Most people like the mk4 like he said. It's primarily due to movesets and the mk4 has horizontal lights and a strikedown h1

[glad quest]

is the rashad c axe the best veteran melee weapon?

[keen sedge]

power sword:

[glad quest]

are shotguns good on any character?

[tiny summit]

Has the ability to be. Hard to build just right

[junior needle]

Both rashad and psword are top tier but both can be a bitch to craft a good one

Psword is gated by blessing access

Rashad needs good rolls all around

Like 4 of exactly what you want and very solid stats

[glad quest]

whats a good beginner weapon while i get to that?

[junior needle]

I’d say knife is as beginner as it gets

Not as good on vet as it is on zealot though

[glad quest]

can it at least waveclear?

[tiny summit]

Most melee weapons are gonna work. Hell PS w/o cycler is kinda ass but can work constantly reapplying charge

[junior needle]

It can wave clear fine but doesn’t excel at it

The simplicity/mobility/teaching you how to actually melee are why it’s beginner friendly

You can also feasibly light attack everything to death with uncanny

[crude fiber]

penance check

[scarlet vessel]

should i change flak to elite or carapace?

[tiny summit]

Go into the grinder and see whether it handles both a mauler and crusher decently with a push attack combo. If it looks like you can shave a hit off to kill

[scarlet vessel]

already 2shot with push stab > L1 with Flak no Carapace. hmm loadoutmanager crashes the game in psykanium

guess ill go with general flak damage

[junior needle]

There's an update for that

[shadow dagger]

oh thats fun

[junior needle]

Why are you putting a crit chance perk on a gun with surgical

[shadow dagger]

does it hit max cc that quick

[terse idol]

Crit chance is not good

[shadow dagger]

i feel like i never aim long enough to let it stack up all the way

[junior needle]

There's very, very few weapons that actually want the crit chance perk

You're much better off with something that gives you breakpoints

On a gun with a blessing that prints crit chance

With more stats/25% maniac I assume you could hit that with the same setup

[shadow dagger]

the next closest breakpoint i cant seem to hit is like

2body bulwarks to unyielding and 1h1b for reapers

hm.

i guess longshot/killzone will take care of that though

[bitter turtle]

think about it this way

5% crit chance

is worth about the same as holding your gun for an extra 0.175 seconds

aka not very worth

[junior needle]

I hate zealot players

Flesh tearer lacerate player runs around taking all the ammo from everyone just to top himself off

Also, is in game chat in actual matches not working for anyone else?

[dusk jacinth]

where my queens of the stone age fans at

havel

ds3 ruined havel set

cant run his full outfit without having 90 vigor

or vit

wahtever the fuck

[junior needle]

I think you got the wrong discord for dark souls discussion

[dusk jacinth]

no

just wait like 30 minutes

once it gets going its dark souls for an hour

[crude fiber]

its way better then ds1 where you couldnt fast roll at all with a big weapon

[dusk jacinth]

bring back havel ninja roll

i want to see a man in full stone armor doing flips

[crude fiber]

please dont lol

[dusk jacinth]

fuck giantdad!!

i need ninja roll havel!!

https://tenor.com/view/havel-flip-dark-souls-gif-23874678

[crude fiber]

wasnt the full set 50 weight? so youd need 200 max weight to fast roll with just the armor which i think wasnt possible

[dusk jacinth]

im pretty sure you can fastroll with its armor

not its weapons

[junior needle]

It used to not be weight limited

[dusk jacinth]

dawg i pumped so much shit into vit and i still couldnt fastroll with it

[junior needle]

It being the flippy ring

[dusk jacinth]

i just deleted theg ame

[crude fiber]

i thought you needed to be able to fast roll for flip ring to work?

[junior needle]

Now you do

It used to not need that

[dusk jacinth]

i think in ds3 if you stack two havel rings +3 i think you can fast roll

but thats two +3 havel rings

[crude fiber]

in the original release or what? im pretty sure in the ds1 remake thats how it worked

[crude fiber]

nah havel armor wasnt that bad in 3

[dusk jacinth]

for its requirements it sucked!!

[junior needle]

Yes, in the original release. It was eventually patched because of havelflippers. Then kept that way for all of the remake.

[crude fiber]

thank god lmao

[crude fiber]

just be that guy that used a straight sword in full havel

[dusk jacinth]

havel doesnt use a straight sword..

therefore i dont..

[gilded wraith]

What should I swap?

[terse idol]

Volatile with Gets hot

[gilded wraith]

Thanks, then specialist with flak?

[terse idol]

Specialists to... maniac probably

Hmm

Naw pgun doesn't need flak

[gilded wraith]

Thanks!

[terse idol]

[gilded wraith]

All pretty now

Other than the stopping power

[junior needle]

Are you able to one tap both gunners with your talent setup?

Because consistent one taps>>>inconsistent one taps and perks are more important on the pgun for that reason

[gilded wraith]

First time really trying one out, so no real build yet.

[dusk jacinth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55ISbbSopXA

[junior needle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuVTfKUZckg

Jesus christ there's so many things wrong with this guys testing method

[frank basin]

His YouTube about said he’s autistic

Something got me wondering

This guy is infamously now

[junior needle]

"Well you see if I use this talent setup without onslaught, the 6d performs really bad"

"Therefore 7a is just better"

[frank basin]

Yeah thing I use with Graia brauto with onslaught

[junior needle]

And if you take onslaught, the 6d outperforms it considerably

[frank basin]

Perform it well

[junior needle]

You don't really need onslaught on the brautos unless you insist on cracking crushers with it

The adm's even at range are pretty good with just rending strikes

[frank basin]

I did use against crusher with onslaught

Not sure Rending strike can do with 10%

Is sound do lesser Rending compare to onslaught

[junior needle]

You can still kill them with 10, just not as well. The issue is that on every other armor type, you’re already at or near 100% with just rending strikes.

So you get reduced performance from rending/brittle past 100

[frank basin]

Diminish the value?

[junior needle]

Yes, past 100% you get 1/4 the value as extra damage

[tiny summit]

Can we just delete this guy from our consciousness

[frank basin]

Sadly we can’t

[junior needle]

“If I take a bunch of damage including 8 stack ping keystone, these guns don’t perform that poorly therefore they’re good”

[frank basin]

It is 10% Rending just constant value?

[junior needle]

The 10% is constant and applies to everything you do

[frank basin]

10% is not 1/4 damage?

[tiny summit]

This video is like when people post day 1 fgc stuff in training mode and no one seeing it in actual game

[junior needle]

It is if you go get past 100%

[frank basin]

I kinda bit confused you saying

I get past 100% is 1/4 damage

I just don’t get what you means with rendering strike

[tiny summit]

Instead of the dmg you're getting from 10% rending, after 100% the dmg is now 1/4 of that 10% of bonus dmg

[frank basin]

So we have 100% damage value to armor and we get extra 10%?

[tiny summit]

Diminishing return past 100% adm

[frank basin]

Aye?

@tiny summit like these example?

[white minnow]

that's an old image

rending used to work like what the image describes but not anymore

[junior needle]

If you have 90% adm

And get 10% rending

You go to 100% adm

[frank basin]

Ahuh

[junior needle]

If you have 100% adm, and get 10% rending

You get 2.5% bonus damage

[frank basin]

Right

[junior needle]

If you have 94% adm

And get 10%

You get 100% adm and 1% bonus damage

[frank basin]

I see

[junior needle]

Wait a second, I've talked to the guy on this discord before

He told me rending didn't affect damage falloff from range, and then I deboonked him

He didn't figure it out because he didn't test it right

[tiny summit]

[frank basin]

Tanner cult is rising

[serene knot]

I like listening to his the info but not listening to him

[junior needle]

His info seems very inconsistent in quality

He has one video saying maniac is a bad stat on most melee weapons, 100% legit and I've said the same thing along with others

[frank basin]

Some his content okay and most time just rude and falsely

[junior needle]

Because you don't want to fight naked ragers in melee

Then you have this, which is entirely misleading and poorly tested.

Good guns aren't only good because talent tree juice can give them "ok" dps

That's not a good gun

[frank basin]

I think his claim going be “use your gun shoot the ragers”

[junior needle]

That's what you should be doing

Due to rager attacks hitting through dodging

[frank basin]

Yeah. I do use gun kill ragers

Knife zealot aren’t some point

[dusk idol]

most optimal tactic to kill ragers is to alt f4

no game no ragers

[junior needle]

Knife zealot (typically stealth) is really good but you need to play well and know what you're doing

[frank basin]

Since I watch his guide for 54 minute he use stealth knife zealot with invocation death (crit cooldown)

Say something like “that’s the good build” for crit cooldown ability with knife

Combine bleed crits

His favorite keystone is momentum I think

He hate martyrdom

Piety good

[junior needle]

I found piety to be the best for max stealth uptime, but in fairness I didn't use momentum much

[frank basin]

Same

[junior needle]

Is he using a god awful setup like flesh tearer/lacerate in it

[idle swallow]

Bleed Knife w/ chorus is my thang it's fun, and I feel only mostly selfish instead of completely selfish

[tiny summit]

Carapace ragers when?

[frank basin]

For khorne

[junior needle]

Because I asked zealot chat about some awful setups multiple zealots in my games were using

And they said it sounded like a tanner build

[tiny summit]

Oh so he has a reputation beyond vet chat

[frank basin]

He’s going infest with zealot

[wanton dawn]

Man, ppl talk about him a lot nowadays

[frank basin]

We need people stop giving his attention or thing get brainrot

Is like we watching Donald trump tweets

[idle swallow]

Tanner is like Sigmund Freud, there's some actually good advice in some of the videos but if you start to accept everything you don't notice the insanity also spoken with the same confidence

[tiny summit]

But it's a burning dumpster...and you just...mildly curious

[frank basin]

He use say something like “you make yourself look like real Asian robot as cope”

[tiny summit]

?

That is a sentence

[frank basin]

One tanner zealot build guide video

[wanton dawn]

Honestly though, if you truly dont want to give more visibility: stop writing down the pseudo or it will show up in search

It kinda annoy me to see ragebait content discussed at lenght

[frank basin]

Apparently when I’m type his name on YouTube search bar it automatically show result on top

[white minnow]

i thought i'd be safe from him in psyker chat

but then one day he fuckin strolls in and says that uncanny strike is not a needed pick for duelling swords

[wanton dawn]

Thats cause you looked at dt content

[frank basin]

He’s only 8k subscribers

[tiny summit]

I DONT FUCKING BASE MY BPs ON CRIT!?

[white minnow]

SIMPLY GAMBLE

[frank basin]

Read Asian robot had 33k subscriber

[white minnow]

AHHHHHHHH

[frank basin]

Where you got him from?

[wanton dawn]

Yt algorithm is not only based on viewer count

[white minnow]

i keep him in my jar

you can search up tanner_lindberg on discord to see his messages

[tiny summit]

The dude lives in the meat grinder

[white minnow]

his name won't autocomplete since he's gone from the discord

[elder fiber]

please empty the contents of the jar into the toilet and flush it

[slow sky]

https://tenor.com/view/ash-ashh-baby-ia-gif-16729153814109504694

oh my fucking god

[white minnow]

i only know the message because it's the only message to spell "uncanny" as "un canny"

[tiny summit]

Darktide 🤝 FGC hermit labbers: awful takes

[idle swallow]

breakpoint more like... nerdpoint

[wanton dawn]

Anyway, the only thing i know is that any weird and aggressive takes probably has origin from his yt

[junior needle]

Infest is an odd choice but I suppose it can improve clear if it gets you one shots on poxes

But then it does nothing for bruisers

[idle swallow]

lacetate/ruthless backstab is the only viable knife build, time to post my youtube vid

[white minnow]

death

[tiny summit]

Upload a Exe MF Recon and call it broken

[slow sky]

lactate/ruthless backshot knife build

[wanton dawn]

Anyway, to quote reddit on the matter:

"WHO ?"

[junior needle]

I enjoy giving the heretics my old ruthless backshot

[tiny summit]

Remember seeing that one

[wanton dawn]

Twas a beauty

[slow sky]

what post are you referencing

[frank basin]

We never escape the tanner-monstrosity?

[tiny summit]

It was some "which way DT youtuber?" meme format of the fork in the road. Was 2 youtubers. Most of reddit were like "who?"

[slow sky]

oh yeah was it JTC live and tanner

i remember it now

[wanton dawn]

Yeah

[white minnow]

hopefully he doesn't make any videos about psyker
vet chat can handle this

[wanton dawn]

Barely

[tiny summit]

The only DT stuff I will upload are my shitty runs and swapping music for moments

Like Chinese gacha music over the The Gauntlet just to see

[frank basin]

If tanner upload video talk about Graia brauto, I’m done with him.

[slow sky]

i only post darktide videos to this discord

like this one

[wanton dawn]

I have 10 views on my bolter showcase

[frank basin]

Indie YouTuber

[tiny summit]

make it a tekken channel

[wanton dawn]

Maybe i should redo a 150 crushers video. With proper clickbait

[frank basin]

Send that to tanner

[wanton dawn]

I would let discord chat decide the title

[tiny summit]

use recon too

[frank basin]

Make the chat suffer

[wanton dawn]

Pretty sure i can

[frank basin]

Try use laspistol against crusher

[junior needle]

My in game chat isn't working

I've yet to figure out why

[wanton dawn]

Deco/reco

[junior needle]

I have

[wanton dawn]

Try modless

[junior needle]

restarted the game multiple times

I should

[frank basin]

Verify cache

[junior needle]

Already verified

[frank basin]

Some mod outdated like volley fire timer

[junior needle]

Need at least two players to private, so I guess I'm joining and leaving

Works without mods it seems

[glad quest]

which knife ? does it make a difference?

[junior needle]

mk3

The light attacks on it are just better

Mk6 has better heavies for hordeclear but require comboing

And it only gives you a slight gain over just using lights

[glad quest]

tyty

[umbral scaffold]

had a fucking stroke this game

more accurately an aneurysm

maybe both

[frank basin]

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-hhhhomeboyyyy-kings-dark-tidings-saga-by-kel-kade-reaperleviathan-head-explode-gif-21578105

[austere pine]

smite gameplay on HIST in a nutshell

[austere pine]

the player's reaction is exactly what an ogryn's would have been in that situation

i think that makes it so much funnier

[junior needle]

Why've I had so many hunting ground missions today

[vague lintel]

wait a minute

do i need to get the spray bottle again

[tiny summit]

Yea cause that was me "huh?"

[frank basin]

https://tenor.com/view/darktide-40k-psyker-explode-perils-gif-10586129510772702813

He vanish before he fucked up

[junior needle]

So close to perfection

SO CLOSE

[elder fiber]

[tiny summit]

Shredder pistol slows you down mag dumping it more than autoguns

[junior needle]

That's another gun that needs work

[wanton dawn]

Shredder was only ever good cuz of pinning

Now its just a worse ciag

[agile forge]

Pinning fire + being particularly good against maniacs

[dire olive]

I still kinda like it on zealot at least, can stagger things like gunners/specials to then rush them

Inb4 "jUsT uSe rEvoLveR aNd kiLl tHem"

[junior needle]

Suppression can make that more difficult than it seems

Although if you're stealth zealot then your ult can help bypass that

ofc the revolver is just better for actually killing everything else when you aren't suppressed

[wanton dawn]

I like suppression on bolter. It stops the whole room from shooting, its great

[umbral scaffold]

Assuming you spent an entire clip on said room, then spending a bit reloading and proceed to get rushed by a Mutie while reloading.

[dire olive]

Reloading? The suppression is so can hit them with your sword as the emperor intended

[umbral scaffold]

If we're talking about ranged enemies, they will be scattered throughout the room, so by the time you have killed maybe two or three, the rest will have recovered and will now be shooting at YOU.

So kiss goodbye to a wound with that stunt.

[dire olive]

By that point you're within melee range and most have switched

Dodge the rest

[white minnow]

the chaff have scattered but you can usually just camp and kill the ranged elites with bolter

[dire olive]

Regardless it was a joke

[white minnow]

in terms of damage, it's basically a 15-round revolver

[dire olive]

I wish

[umbral scaffold]

Derp. I must have missed that part, sorry.

[dire olive]

Fanning revolver maybe

[wanton dawn]

I am being unironic though

Also i did post a gameplay bolter video like this week so you dont have to assume what i do

[umbral scaffold]

Regardless, I consider the Locke IIb to be... kind of bad. Especially when EVERYTHING has a better ammo economy then it.

[wanton dawn]

Sure, but that is not the weirdest thing i bring in maelstrom

And certainly not the worse

[dire olive]

Could be worse, could bring a recon

[wanton dawn]

On fog i think it is very very strong

[agile forge]

Apparently Bolter works better on a Zealot these days

I wanna try that

[wanton dawn]

I dont play zealot, i wouldnt know

[white minnow]

other way around because new bolter is more of a dmr

[agile forge]

Oh man you are missing out on the joy of being a psychopathic crackhead

[umbral scaffold]

Zealot doesn't have extra ammo in the tree though, so no.

[white minnow]

you can make it work with zealot cuz of piety/cavalcade and whatnot

[agile forge]

Also knives

They plug the holes in the ammo economy a lot

[wanton dawn]

You wished

[white minnow]

ammo is not much of a concern unless you're running a meme tier build and not looting

[agile forge]

Knives also correct the slow swap speed

[wanton dawn]

Anyway, vet certainly play bolter differently from zealot

[agile forge]

Swap and immediately chuck a knife at something

[wanton dawn]

You cant magdump well but kickass ads

[civic knot]

How is the viability of power swords after the patch? Better than before or the same efficiency?

[wanton dawn]

Same, arguably slightly worse

[zealous depot]

so ive decided to rebuild my pre post rework rework 'vet keystones are an asspain'' go wide build that focuses on grenades

I didnt remember WHAT all I had besides grenade perks though

any perks from the middle up you really like in general? especially I need something for toughness.

[civic knot]

Is it more enjoyable to use? @wanton dawn

[wanton dawn]

It is a nothing burger

Your 2nd activation start at the 2nd attack of your light or heavy chain

Making pc4 mk6 standard pattern slightly worse on horde if you dont anim cancel

Cuz 4th hit is vertical

[zealous depot]

Devestating strike or skullcrusher?

[zealous depot]

how can I make the toughness on this feel better?

im not commited to anything that isnt grenade

[coral bloom]

I would probably drop the damage aura and max ammo capacity to path into survivalist instead.
Not gonna question grenade talents since its critical to your build plan.

[zealous depot]

the idea is from when vet capstones were just pain to get

suvivalist isnt a bad idea

[tall torrent]

Get +toughness nodes in bottom left & right branches

[zealous depot]

the best part is if you can convince your team to let you eat an entire ammocrate thats 4-16 grenades

[neon estuary]

whats the good blessings for power sword?

[coral bloom]

[zealous depot]

power cycler and rampage

[coral bloom]

Not having precision strikes seems painful to me, I wouldnt ever wanna drop that on vet really.

[neon estuary]

i was thinking of wrath instead of rampage but ok

[wanton dawn]

Power cycler, then either bm or sunder as the 2nd pick

the others are all 1 or 2 tiers below

[coral bloom]

I would prob go power cycler brutal momentum, or power cycler sunder

[wanton dawn]

Slaughterer hasn't been a top PS pick since patch 13

[neon estuary]

sunder?

[zealous depot]

its fun to say though

[tall torrent]

Power cycler + brutal momentum/sunder

[neon estuary]

so thats a 7th part in the 4th secton?

[tall torrent]

Yes

[zealous depot]

how is the new power sword combo charge thing?

[wanton dawn]

meh

[tall torrent]

Mostly irrelevant

[wanton dawn]

nothing burger

[zealous depot]

I cant use power sword with weapon swap vet because it feels so sticky

[neon estuary]

ok, might take a while to get that blessing. The sunder part really

[zealous depot]

lesser men than you have died trying to get power cycler 4

not me, I got in week two of the crafting system

[neon estuary]

at least the power cycler can really be useful while clearing out the horde

[zealous depot]

but the rest of you have to work

[wanton dawn]

Sunder allows you to do this

[zealous depot]

slap enemies like a french gentleman?

[wanton dawn]

You would not know how relevant your comment is

[neon estuary]

seems complicated against heavy armored units

[wanton dawn]

The things the video does not show is that PS also stagger maulers and rager out of their animation

[zealous depot]

mmmm

[wanton dawn]

So sunder is very good against rager

[zealous depot]

coming from impact ogryn

[neon estuary]

alright then, at least i still have 3 krak grenades

[zealous depot]

stagger anything is a really good tool to whip out

live for making crushers fat boy stumble

[wanton dawn]

With a bit of training, you can even do this

Which is your standard no ammo modifier packs

[zealous depot]

man

[neon estuary]

not to mention i can grind down the mauler with columus mk v on veteran's ability mode

[zealous depot]

it really sucks vet doesnt get heavy sword

[neon estuary]

heavy sword?

[zealous depot]

zealot weapon

[neon estuary]

oh that, you mean the long chainsword

[zealous depot]

with headtaker it murders anything

[wanton dawn]

I think it struggles a bit against carapace ?

[zealous depot]

thats what the special is for

at least the one I like has a hammerblow for carapace

its not THE best

but its workable

[white minnow]

well, you begrudgingly fight carapace even with the special

[wanton dawn]

PS is arguably at it strongest against carapace

[zealous depot]

how is newer power sword working out?

[wanton dawn]

Meh

[zealous depot]

whats the usecase for it so far?

[wanton dawn]

It is a bit worse against horde

might be a bit better to pick elite with the overhead

but really it changes nothing relevant

I can make you a before after video if you want

[zealous depot]

ill figure it out

I was just hoping the change made it smoother

[wanton dawn]

Do you see the difference between the first and second ?

[zealous depot]

wait wait

I thought the change was you could charge it mid combo

like on the backswing

[wanton dawn]

As I said, it is mostly nothing burger

[zealous depot]

ah well

team shovel

[wanton dawn]

Now you need to anim cancel against horde, and can use that to pick elite in horde IG

[zealous depot]

its kinda smooth to trigger after each single swing

when the animation doesnt lock

[agile forge]

Nah, Turtolsky Heavy Sword. It it literally just a long one-handed sword.

There are three marks of it, I use the IX. Great generalist weapon, very fast, one-shots Mutants, struggles against Carapace

You can use it with a Zarona, put on an eye patch, pretend to be a pirate

[neon estuary]

nah, i'll just stick with the power sword with the power cycler and try to find a sunder. At least i dress more of a commando then a pirate.... Honestly i look more of a pilot then a commando

[agile forge]

well it's a zealot exclusive while the power sword is a veteran exclusive anyway lol

[zealous depot]

the only thing more fitting than a cadian vet wearing the cadian jacket

is a loose cannon vet who isnt from cadia wearing one

[neon estuary]

suppose if he is cadian because of the purple eyes

at least the newest comestic pants fits the color for the jacket

[zealous depot]

I just think its funny my loose cannon stole some cadian dudes jacket

[neon estuary]

well it is a nice jacket with some flak armor beneath it

[tall torrent]

Making smth nice

[trim hemlock]

Nice. I assume this isn’t the only row of skills you are describing?

[tall torrent]

Yea it’s still a work-in-progress

[frank ether]

Idk why comp urge needs to be a percentage proc instead of every X kills proc

feel simiarly about twinned blast

[tall torrent]

Twinned blast def needs buff still

Comp Urge is not a bad pickup, just lacking predictability

The uptime is technically not bad

[midnight mortar]

I assume it's so it's more functional on paper across difficulties with fewer enemy spawns.

Though it still ends up feeling bad.

[neon estuary]

you know what cosmetic is really missing for veterans? Berets

[cold shell]

Ogryn has beret

[neon estuary]

yeah but veterans dont

[frank ether]

just make it cooldown based or every X throws

[frank ether]

I dont think thats the reason

so many things are downright overpowered in lower diffs

like the dev team that did P13 assail surely doesnt take malice as primary difficulty to balance things around

[tall torrent]

I really want them to add some actual armor for veterans

[frank ether]

I think its just that they wanted to do things differently maybe

[tall torrent]

Chance based can work if the chance is high enough (like 50% maybe)

If it’s 50% I’d actually consider it with frags

[terse idol]

Problem being comp urge as a fixed number or an % like rn is both worse on lower difficulty

Comp urge shines on damnation and auric damn, worse on lower

[frank ether]

depends on the thing

crit chance for example works because its something you stack from mulltiple sources

but for something like get % chance to gain damage

thats breakpoints betting on rng proc

[tall torrent]

The way I see it is if the %chance is low, I should get to roll that a lot of times to make it reasonably matter, but if I don’t get to roll it very often, the %chance has to be higher

[frank ether]

here is an idea then

[tall torrent]

You’re only ever gonna be rolling twinned blast up to like 50 or so times (60 at most if your team is struggling hard) across a mission

[frank ether]

You gain +%2.5 chance on every kill till it procs which then resets it back to the base number

[tall torrent]

That’s fair, I’d make it 4% personally tho

[frank ether]

so you document said its basically on average every 50 kills right

[trim hemlock]

How about making it remain as is, but make the chance higher for elite/special kills?

[frank ether]

if it was an additive percentage chance on every kill

that would guarantee procs eventually

[agile yew]

Really felt the need for Vet guide when started it. When Psyker and Ogryn have such nice ones

[trim hemlock]

The problem is, if elites/specials would have a higher chance to pop it, the uptime might actually be insane

[tall torrent]

Are u talking abt comp urge or twinned blast

[frank ether]

comp urge atm

[tall torrent]

Ah ok

Comp urge I think 2.5% chance build up is fine

[frank ether]

twinned blast I would just make it a flat every X grenades and be done with it

or every like

120 seconds

or something

[tall torrent]

I think it should work at least like Headhunter blessing

[tall torrent]

The avg uptime in auric damnation HiSTG is somewhere like 500 seconds with comp urge rn which really is not bad

It’s just that you can’t predict when you’ll get it

[trim hemlock]

Well, exactly, but making the effect "predictable" and much less random in nature would have to have some other consequence for it

like lower duration

[tall torrent]

More than half the time you get it fighting poxwalkers, then 6 crushers come out just as the buff wears off

[timid otter]

Relitant on coherency aswell

[tall torrent]

Comp urge doesn’t need coherency

[trim hemlock]

8s buff for something that has a buildup and relatively strong effects is... finicky.

[tall torrent]

It’s any enemy killed by any ally anywhere

[timid otter]

Thats actually pretty strange

[tall torrent]

It’s one of the only 2 team-related veteran talents that don’t need coherency to function

The other being field improv

[frank ether]

comp urge is like a

you know how blazing piety has a team buff thing

[tall torrent]

It’s like a luxury pick I’d consider if I had extra points to spare (I’m actually point starved gg)

[frank ether]

its like a weird warped up version of that

it is indeed luxury pick but

how often do you have luxury as vet

[trim hemlock]

never

[frank ether]

Usually it is reserved for the

middle path voc build

[tall torrent]

If you play chainsword + infantry autogun, you have a lot of luxuries

[frank ether]

part of the problem I find is the grenade regen talent is too integral

[tall torrent]

It just depends on how much ur weapons rely on talents

[frank ether]

every build wants to grab it

[timid otter]

Middle path is overall extremely solid.

Voice of command, grenade regen (2x), iron will, tactical awarenss.

[tall torrent]

Also I’m gonna say smth heretical but

I’m giving reciprocity a “situational” rating

[frank ether]

sure

[tall torrent]

Instead of “good” or “strong”

[frank ether]

not every gun cares for crit

[timid otter]

It can be hard to trigger.

[tall torrent]

No it’s like the uptime is really shit

It works with ghost/hit&run/stripped down but really inconsistently

[trim hemlock]

Adjusting one's muscle memory to make succesful dodges is a problem for me, for instance

I live by making imperfect dodges

[tall torrent]

You can only proc it with those blessings on the very start of gunner’s streams of fire

[frank ether]

vet has too many situational talents like this tho

[trim hemlock]

and other actions can also get in the way of using Reciprocity to maximum of its effect

[frank ether]

I think reciprocity is still

a lot better

than the likes of

+1 bleed

[tall torrent]

It’s better than skirmisher for sure but like

That’s not saying much

I think reciprocity is only ever really good with knife

Everything else

[frank ether]

doesnt it also apply to guns

[tall torrent]

As long as you’re killing things in front of you fast, you don’t benefit much from it

[tall torrent]

Yes, you need to either manual dodge gun fire or use blessings that proc it very inconsistently

[frank ether]

usually my problem with it aswell that I get maybe one proc of it

and I have already killed like

[tall torrent]

And getting 1~2 proc out of it inconsistently just don’t seem that great

[frank ether]

30 shooters

before that 8 second runs out

[trim hemlock]

I mostly take Reciprocity to path into Desperado, but that's mainly for making bayonet breakpoints more consistent (I play a lot of Helbro recently)

[frank ether]

but the way I think is like

its on the way to strong talents

so to me its a stepping stone

there is also cq killzone ofc but thats like, no no for an exec build

[tall torrent]

Most of the time, CQKZ is gonna be more reliable than reciprocity

[trim hemlock]

only in close range, though

that's 8m

[frank ether]

it is very good with the melee based ults

[tall torrent]

No, actually

[serene bough]

It definitely sees the most benefit in melee since it's far easier to proc in melee

[tall torrent]

CQKZ buffs your dmg up to 30m

[frank ether]

it is however rather meh on exec which is more of an exec problem really

[tall torrent]

It’s not just a buff within 8m

[serene bough]

Its overall a good buff for that considering it's pretty early in the tree

[tall torrent]

It’s a buff up to 30m, going from 15% dmg decaying over range

[trim hemlock]

Ah yes, of course it has to be more karking complicated than the description wants me to believe

So there is indeed some more value in this effect, it seems

[tall torrent]

I think it’s ok with laspistol when using ghost, and maybe IAGs with hit & run / stripped down, but that’s really it

And even those don’t work very consistently beyond 1~2 stacks

Meanwhile u can run deadshot + duck & dive with those exact same weapon builds and just have way better reliable crits

For guns, anyway

[serene bough]

i wouldnt use reciprocity with the intention to buff ranged crit chance

deadshot or headhunter are far better crit talent/blessing

[frank ether]

you take reciprocity with deadshot usually

[tall torrent]

It’s really a 90% melee talent and if you’re using any melee that kills things in front of you very quickly, you’re not getting as much value out of it

[frank ether]

and if you dont its probably because the gun is too unsustainable

[serene bough]

i take reciprocity in almost every build

[frank ether]

you're not gonna take deadshot on a recon las

[trim hemlock]

You path to Duck and Dive anyway whenever you take Deadshot (I HOPE YOU DO), so Reciprocity is fairly free to take

[serene bough]

it's a solid buff for melee + its right above desperado

[tall torrent]

Depends on available economy but I think duck & dive is much higher priority than reciprocity when going for deadshot anyways

Hence my “situational” rating

[frank ether]

you want both

[serene bough]

recip crit buff can be applied to ranged but its too unreliable to proc for range combat unless you have a fast swapping weapon

[frank ether]

but it depends

[serene bough]

i dont use deadshot if my weapon is fast firing

[frank ether]

you could be going focus mark too

that also has stamina sustain

[tall torrent]

The most common deadshot gun besides revolver is prob laspistol? And reciprocity is really just a luxury spend for that gun

[trim hemlock]

I can respect that

[serene bough]

id imagine 1a iLas uses deadshot often

[frank ether]

not really

[trim hemlock]

I don't use Deadshot with 1a

[serene bough]

and some autoguns because why not if you can regen stam

i mostly use MG4 so i avoid deadshot

[trim hemlock]

I would maybe consider Deadshot for Mg12

[frank ether]

1a spends too long ads'ing

[serene bough]

i guess but MG12 is kinda meh compared to the other two

[frank ether]

like you're spamming a lot of shots for headhunter procs

[tall torrent]

Like, if I do the maths here

Veteran 5%
Laspistol 15%
Deadshot 25%
That’s already 40%
If I get 5% crit chance talent, that’s 45%
Going from 45% to 50% from reciprocity proc via ghost is really not the biggest improvement in the grand scheme of things

If it was a high crit chain weapon I’d respect the crit chance gains more

[frank ether]

counter point, its on the path to desperado and like %60 of laspis damage are crits

[trim hemlock]

It's less potential damage, but it's somewhat consistent (and you probably don't have to click for heads on shooters if build correctly)

[frank ether]

though what I do is different

I dont take the %5 node

I just take reciprocity and treat it as a %5 node

[serene bough]

if i wanted to push breakpoints id just run the 1a and probably exe stance, but overall i rather just spam lasers and do more consistent DPS with the mg4

[earnest lodge]

reciprocity stacks up to 25% though

[serene bough]

im under the impression the MG1a can do what the MG12 does but better

[terse idol]

Yes

[tall torrent]

But does going from 45% to 50% crit chance on a non-high-crit-chain weapon really matter enough for 1 point when CQKZ works more consistently more often

[trim hemlock]

Yes, although at the cost of more effort from the user (CLICKCLICKCLICK)

[terse idol]

The slower rate of fire really sucks the life out of the mg12

[trim hemlock]

And then I remember Helbros are a thing and I don't want to go back to ILAS'

[terse idol]

Without doing more dps than the ia

[serene bough]

small correction but that's 5 + 15+ 25 = 45%, 50% if you take node

[tall torrent]

The core MG12 experience rn is basically:

aim headshot
teammate ogryn walks in front of you
shot gets blocked
aim headshot again
teammate shot a bullet near the enemy you were aiming at, suppressing it
its head moves
you miss
rinse & repeat

[serene bough]

unpopular opinion but as far as ilas go I think mg4 is overall better unless you're trying to push breakpoints

[tall torrent]

Mb I’m suffering brain rot rn (I counted without 5% crit chance node)

So yea does 5% crit chance on inconsistent proc really matter all that much for 1 point when CQKZ works much more consistently much more often

[serene bough]

yeah i agree, like i mentioned i only take reciprocity with the intention of buffing my melee power

[tall torrent]

I really don’t see that argument for like 90% weapons in this game

Even melee weapons are like, besides knife (and tac axes if ur into that), which actually will benefit noticeably enough from dodge related crit chance

DC swords have good crits but you parry more often than you dodge

Combat axes don’t care about crits most of the time since you build for non-crit BPs
The only crit BP that you might care about is bulwark 1HS with heavy

Power swords don’t dodge enough and they kill everything too fast to care

[serene bough]

i wouldn't say no to 25% crit for just being engaged in melee combat, but then again im partial towards crit because I enjoy knife and DC

[tall torrent]

It’s not 25% crit, that’s the thing

It’s usually 1~2 stacks in melee

[serene bough]

im often at 5 stacks

if you're dealing with a huge group of enemies you can easily build 5 stacks

[tall torrent]

Hm ok

If you’re getting frequent full 5 stacks uptime it’s prob as good as CQKZ

[serene bough]

ultimately it depends on the weapon/build

CQKZ is probablybetter if you run VoC bc you're spamming it often but im runing infil and don't spam quite as often

[tall torrent]

The only weapon I think reciprocity is objectively the way to go is combat knife

[serene bough]

(coincidentally that's what I'm using lols)

[tall torrent]

[serene bough]

maybe tac axe but never tried

[tall torrent]

I wish tac axes had better heavy atk dmg man

[serene bough]

they're definitely the funkiest melee weapon

[timid otter]

Left behind by the patches

[serene bough]

hybrid between combat axe and knife, for what benefit exactly?

[timid otter]

Tactical axes havent been good since like launch.

[terse idol]

I think mg4 is better only if you have the auto fire modd

For me, I'm ia

[frank ether]

better on paper

practically I just use 1a and not touch the others

[tall torrent]

They don’t murder carapace nearly as good as knife (or combat axe, if they’re built for that purpose) and they don’t clear hordes that much better than knife

Also don’t have knife’s move speed properties

[frank ether]

give tac axe like knife mobility

and its good

[tall torrent]

MG4 is when you want to let the brain rot take over and embrace “accuracy by volume”

[frank ether]

like increased movement on heavy attacks

maybe not as good

[tall torrent]

No the issue is just that they don’t have very good dmg

[frank ether]

I still think you're better off with like a graia autogun as far as being practical goes

[tall torrent]

You need perfect 4/4 rolls to be able to 1HS both bruisers with heavy attacks

[serene bough]

correct, need to fit the LC role