veteran-class

[bitter turtle]

since they're much less bp dependent

but still

[torn inlet]

right, some weapons are less BP dependent too

[bitter turtle]

95% is not a good claim at least

at least half the guns in this game are semiauto and very affected

and melees are very very affected as well

case in point: my fucking rashad that is literally ONE DAMAGE OFF

[torn inlet]

lolol

[raw steppe]

yep, rashad IIRC i believe

[austere mica]

One extra bullet out of 500 is way less impactful than one out of 86

[raw steppe]

has a bruiser breakpoint with BM + unarmored

where if you dont hit it

the weapon is trash

LOL

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/ebdef14eb8ed5beb455e952675bb3b5b.jpg

damage 80

finesse 80

[raw steppe]

HAHAHA

[bitter turtle]

first target 79

:^)

[raw steppe]

utterly fucked

[torn inlet]

hahahaha

[bitter turtle]

and yes, i set first target to 80 and it works

[austere mica]

Oh you poor fucking soul

I am so sorry that happened to you

[torn inlet]

one BP on one enemy lol so horrible /s

[bitter turtle]

i just had to make a new one

[torn inlet]

well duh

[bitter turtle]

it actually is

[raw steppe]

well it is pretty bad

[bitter turtle]

that's like the most important bp for it

[raw steppe]

especially for a BM weapon

[bitter turtle]

its like the difference between it being absolute trash at horde clear and god

[raw steppe]

on the most annoying trash enemy

[bitter turtle]

you need the oneshot because of how BM works

[torn inlet]

right, but getting these are pretty easy.

[raw steppe]

uhhhh

wot

[torn inlet]

tedous, but easy

[raw steppe]

lol

[bitter turtle]

u find me a 80/80/80/80 rashad and tell me its easy after that

[torn inlet]

unless you don't use mods

or are poor

[bitter turtle]

with headtaker/BM and unarmored/flak

lol

[torn inlet]

Wait, do some of you not use the auto buy mod?

[bitter turtle]

literally mandatory perk/blessings

its not a matter of autobuy or not

[austere mica]

Getting the oneshot on bruisers turns them from cleave stoppers into yet more butter for your 10000 degree axe

[white minnow]

i use autobuy and have rarely gotten 80/80/80s

[bitter turtle]

its just hard to get the right stats bc its 4 damage stats lol

[white minnow]

because money is my constraint

not the speed at which i can buy stuff

[torn inlet]

right. see my statement about being poor

[bitter turtle]

half the time even if you get a 370+ it went into mobility

[torn inlet]

all 80's is one issue, one 80 isn't so bad

[white minnow]

i mean i play with +30% ordo dockets

[bitter turtle]

you want

all 80s tho

on 4 stats

ideally

lol

[torn inlet]

ideally, but not all stats are equal

[austere mica]

Not all of us have entire weeks we can invest

[bitter turtle]

yes, but in this case, you literally do need all the stats to be high

which one do you want to drop

damage/penetration/finesse/first target

[torn inlet]

peasants /s

[bitter turtle]

lmao

only thing you can dump is mobility

i feel like u dont actually use rashad ngl

since you didnt understand the significance of that bp

[torn inlet]

i do too, and lol at the poor people

[austere mica]

Which is the normal dump but still, now you a slow bitch

[torn inlet]

I don't very often, but its clearly not the only weapon in existence.

[bitter turtle]

dont at all, more sounds like

post ur rashad

[torn inlet]

nah i do, just not on auric

i'm more than fine farming damnation for ordos trying out stupid builds

[raw steppe]

the deflection begins

[torn inlet]

How'd you know I love playing force swords? /s

[raw steppe]

my rashad is shit i think i need ht to hit the bp lol

[torn inlet]

that's a you problem. not everyone has to play rashad

See above. rationally chosen weapons.

You don't have to be rational though

[raw steppe]

just post your weapon

and stop saying useless shit

[bitter turtle]

there are other weapons tedious to roll

[torn inlet]

which ones?

[bitter turtle]

enjoy my knife collection

#veteran-class message

[torn inlet]

I have a lot of weapons

[bitter turtle]

another "4 damage stats" episode :^)

[torn inlet]

favorite weapons?

unfavorite weapons?

[raw steppe]

aite this is bait lol

[torn inlet]

weapons i wish were better

lol

[torn inlet]

this was the bait.

you weren't being genuine here

[bitter turtle]

i actually was being genuine though

[torn inlet]

i have no reason to be genuine to disingenuous bait

[bitter turtle]

i just dont think you actually understand what the rashad is used for when you downplayed missing that bp

[torn inlet]

what did you want?

[bitter turtle]

so i was wondering if you actually played it

[torn inlet]

oh did you want me to post my shitty rashad?

lemme go find it

[bitter turtle]

tfw a recon is my highest rated gun

[torn inlet]

yeah no, if you just said rashad to begin with, i would've just told you hold on

*post your rashad

[raw steppe]

^^^^

[torn inlet]

i iz blind. didn't see that.

was busy typing

gimme a min

[bitter turtle]

that is uh

[torn inlet]

Not great.

as I said, shitty lol

[bitter turtle]

its a shitty one like you said alright

i think that's a good example of

"definitely not within 95%"

not to critique it too hard but you might as well not even run BM on it

its doing nothing

[torn inlet]

I invested nothing in it

tbf

[bitter turtle]

that's fine

[torn inlet]

and didn't intentionally roll for a good one

[bitter turtle]

just saying, its an example of what i meant

[torn inlet]

nah because i said a rationally chosen

this was free

[bitter turtle]

its a weapon that quite literally needs nearly all 4 perk/blessings slots to be correct

[torn inlet]

Would you rationally choose a gray that's 349 with shitty base stat rolls? No

[bitter turtle]

i dont think there's any way to shitterfuck your way to making it work with only 2/4 correct

[austere mica]

That is, objectively an axe

[torn inlet]

possibly, but if that's true then that's not a good weapon to begin with relative to other weapons that don't need it

[austere mica]

Oh damn scrolling

[bitter turtle]

idk about that

[austere mica]

I hate mobile

[bitter turtle]

its pretty agreed upon to be one of the best melee weapons in the game rn

for vet and zealot both

idk about psyker

i know they can use it but their tree might not be able to abuse it

not enough melee dmg nodes

[torn inlet]

eh. people love that axe, but it doesn't need bis everything to be good if everyone loves it so much

[bitter turtle]

it goes back to what the toher person was saying

bps make a big difference

[torn inlet]

it has to have some inherent properties beyond the 4 slot godrolled max

[bitter turtle]

turns a weapon with a clear weakness (rashad isnt supposed to be a weapon good at hordes) into a weapon that does literally everything

minces hordes and armor alike

[torn inlet]

anyway, i didn't ever claim I have a good axe or a rationally chosen one lol

[bitter turtle]

and massive unyielding dmg to bosses

[torn inlet]

but i clearly have an axe lol

i could probably easily roll regular dam with it

on any character

[bitter turtle]

i can roll auric damn with a taxe 4 and no gun, it really proves very little other than you yourself are skilled enough to overcome whatever shortcomings your weapon/build has

[torn inlet]

most regulars probably can

[bitter turtle]

goes back to what i said

[torn inlet]

that statement also aligns to show how little an effect that gear has then too

[bitter turtle]

factoring player skill is questionable when ppl can win with greys

[torn inlet]

or at least, reduces it

Player skill clearly matters

[bitter turtle]

of course it does, nobody was contending that

but its pointless to compare player skill vs weapon stats

[torn inlet]

it does imo

[bitter turtle]

player skill is variable and different from person to person

if we're comparing a good weapon to a bad weapon

you might as well say

[torn inlet]

its clearly a factor and it'd be dumb to deny it

[bitter turtle]

well akshaully they're the same because the good weapon is actually being used by a complete monkey and the bad weapon is used by the person who can solo auric mael

the conversation becomes nonsense

just compare the weapon to the weapon lol

[torn inlet]

we aren't playing with bots /s usually.

[bitter turtle]

like by tha tlogic

the good stat weapon is worse than the bad stat weapon

because the person using the bad stat weapon is more skilled

and the good weapon is bein gused by a guy who runs off the map and klils himself in 10 seconds

its ????

just keep it simple and compare the weapons to each other lol

[torn inlet]

bad faith comparisons

also

just because you miss one BP doesn't mean for the majority of enemies you aren't otherwise the same

[bitter turtle]

i dont think its bad faith to suggest that we keep number comparison strictly for numbers

[torn inlet]

there will be changes in BP and TTK

but

[bitter turtle]

yes but certain bps are much, much more important than others

see: rashad

[torn inlet]

how many BPs, how much actual TTK, how much actual final time results different in end score results matter

[bitter turtle]

see: v7

plenty of weapons like that

nobody ever calculates for scab bomber bp for good reason, really

[torn inlet]

and weapons thare are less or minimally affected too. see plasma gun

[bitter turtle]

i cant speak on that, but i do know people build for plasma bps

so idk about your claim

[torn inlet]

Its been a while, why's this one

[bitter turtle]

only that i hate that gun so i dont bother learning much about it

[paper brook]

That's it I'm gonna say it

Against the Emperor

[torn inlet]

either take my word for the PG, or go idk

but there's probably other PG players here

[bitter turtle]

omg fr me too

[austere mica]

Me

[torn inlet]

What's your op then?

[austere mica]

And yes breakpoints matter because it has a shit rof

Halving a 1 second kill time is pretty nice

[torn inlet]

Its not a matter of BP mattering, its a matter of actual final effectiveness.

actually PG is a bit special

primary fire BP's are affected but you have an alt fire with variable damage you can control

[austere mica]

Bp do matter though, being able to wipe 5 scab gunners in 3 seconds instead of 5 makes a difference

[bitter turtle]

nobody alt fires pg

misquote

sorry

let me rephrase

since we had this episode before

[austere mica]

Unless against monsters or bulwarks

Or crushers

[bitter turtle]

nobody who knows what they're actually doing alt fires pg in the majority of scenarios*

[torn inlet]

imo, you're shooting at the wrong targerts if you're going for those gunners lol

[austere mica]

Ogryns entirely actually

[torn inlet]

majority of scenarios are trash mobs. what's your point?

[bitter turtle]

you dont even use pg on trash mobs

so no

[torn inlet]

exactly

[bitter turtle]

that's not the majority of scenarios for pg use

[austere mica]

Then the hell am I shooting at because those are half of all traversal mobs and a good deal of swarm stuff

[torn inlet]

you don't shoot to begin with

[terse idol]

I'm gonna say it

Oh

it's ben half an hour

[austere mica]

If I’m not shooting gunners with plasma I’m not shooting

[terse idol]

[bitter turtle]

Against the emprah

i said it

[terse idol]

[torn inlet]

personally i like to troll others shooting poxbursters when i shouldn't, but no. other targets in reality lol

[pulsar radish]

Ima say it.

I don't like plasma.

[terse idol]

TO BE FAIR

[bitter turtle]

idk this entire conversation is ridiculous

[terse idol]

Building BP's

Is helping your team

[bitter turtle]

1 second to kill something =/= 2seconds to kill something

[terse idol]

By killing things faster

😌

[bitter turtle]

that's my argument

[torn inlet]

Your TTK is the same regardless when you have weapons that are OP

[bitter turtle]

i know for a fact at least

[austere mica]

I shoot all specials, all armored elites and ragers if they get clumped, and all ranger enemies tougher than basic shooters

[torn inlet]

its more of a difference of .1 seconds vs .2 seconds

[bitter turtle]

that u have to build for oneshots on gunners or 3 shots on crushers

[terse idol]

If anything this is why things like Brittleness is undervalues for certain weapons PLASMA because other people build for their own BP's

[austere mica]

And never go below 50% ammo

[terse idol]

uh wrong

It's extra ammo

If you don't build the BP for dredge gunners on BP

You're gonna use double the ammo

Which is 1 to 2

[bitter turtle]

like

i would know

[terse idol]

This does TECHNICALLY matter in the long run

Second

[bitter turtle]

cause i have a very mediocre plasma gun

that needs 4 shots for crushers

[terse idol]

It also wastes alot of damage

[bitter turtle]

just barely

[austere mica]

It’s .5 seconds versus 1 seconds here, a difference that matters

[torn inlet]

youc an build the BP without having 4/4 slots. only the edge cases are going to be affected here

[terse idol]

Which means you're gonna waste damage

because of overkill

[torn inlet]

player skill/ build issue

[terse idol]

It's not...

[austere mica]

Plasma only gets 86 uncharged shots worth max ammo

[terse idol]

It's a number issues

Math!

[bitter turtle]

i topped dmg in twins hm with it

[pulsar radish]

Tbf overkill damage sucks

[bitter turtle]

guess its just

the gun

[pulsar radish]

The lower you get the better.

[bitter turtle]

its also the only time i ever used/will use it

[austere mica]

And 28 uncharged

[terse idol]

Overkill is why we build many break points to begin with

[bitter turtle]

fuck this gun

[terse idol]

To be as effective as we can with damage

[bitter turtle]

piece of buggy trash

[torn inlet]

rofl

[terse idol]

The less overkill damage you do

[bitter turtle]

ghosting my shots

[terse idol]

The more effective you technically are

[torn inlet]

nah, because in reality you have lag

you have an acceptable amount of overkill for lag

[terse idol]

Lag doesn't mean anything

🥹

[torn inlet]

cope

[terse idol]

It's literal math

[bitter turtle]

i dont think lag changes your bps

it just eats your shots

[terse idol]

Lag doesn't change your damage

[bitter turtle]

so you just pretend that you never shot that bullet

[terse idol]

Yeah

[bitter turtle]

because the game says "nah that one didnt exist"

[terse idol]

I mean Hit-registeration

Is another issue

[austere mica]

So having to hit once instead of twice is really nice

[terse idol]

hit reg, just makes it so you do 0 damage

So I mean

Technically you don't overkill

[pulsar radish]

A lot of my friends hit about the same damage as me which I'd about 320-500k but hit like 120k overkill and I sit on 20-40k

[terse idol]

Because that shot didn't hit anything

[torn inlet]

in reality you aren't always going to be shooting a unmoving target. lol

[bitter turtle]

i mean effectively u just add 1 more shot to whatever your original bp was, but having a lower bp is still gonna be better

@ lag situations

[terse idol]

Uh

What does that mean

In terms of damage

And break points

[bitter turtle]

do u have an aiming issue

its ok if you do

[terse idol]

Something moving horizontally

[pulsar radish]

Your going to miss the weak point.

[torn inlet]

in terms of damage and breakpoints? shots miss. lag happens. shit happens that wastes your ammo.

[austere mica]

Yeah and I still hit its head, killing it instantly with my oneshot cannon

[terse idol]

Doesn't change my damage value if I can hit the headshot

[terse idol]

That's

Not BP's

[bitter turtle]

i mean even if u miss sometimes (understandable) ur still hitting headshots most of the time (id hope?)

[terse idol]

That's just network connectivity issues

That has nothing to do with damage

[torn inlet]

BP's in isolation and divorced from reality is not useful

[terse idol]

Uh

The reality is

It's always better to kill a thing in fewer hits...

🥹

[pulsar radish]

Probably not, I'd say unless you somehow an aim god you only hit 30-50% as weak points.

[austere mica]

The reality is I want that crusher dead fucking now not in 2 minutes

[terse idol]

Why do we build Plasma gun BP's if not to make it be able to one shot everything

Or 3 shot a crusher

This whole discussion gets even more fucked up when we look at melee weapons like the Rashad

Which rely hevily on Bp's

[pulsar radish]

That's still a good ratio of weak points tbf.

[shrewd sable]

I don't understand the argument you're trying to make. Because lag and other shit happens, you shouldn't be optimizing for BPs? or what exactly?
With BP: The times you don't have lag / other bullshit, you kill in 1 less shot
Without bp: you always have the "bad result" of lag/bullshit with BP, meaning +1 shot no matter what

[austere mica]

Shit does happen but making it so it impacts you less is helpful

[pulsar radish]

You should always be taking the middle ground for BP to account for battlefield scenarios.

Missing - being hit and knocked off a weak point, flat up human error

That one orgyn who eats your bullets.

[bitter turtle]

what is a middle ground for bp, you either have it or you dont

[terse idol]

Well yeah

[torn inlet]

They’re trying to twist this as if i am not optimizing weapons. that is not the case. its a strawman narrative.

The actual argument is about high tier 2/4 easily rolled gray to gold weapons vs bis god tier.

You absolutely can account for BP’s and get 90-95% effectiveness. Will you miss some BP’s? Yes. is that the majority if your gameplay? No.

[bitter turtle]

i dont get extra credit for missing 1 dmg only on rashad

[pulsar radish]

Depends if your saying you can always weakpoint or doesn't it?

[terse idol]

It's not the majority of the gameplay, but like

It matters for Auric abit it's an optimization thing

[torn inlet]

it feels bad to have shitty gear

[terse idol]

It's just weird that you brought up lag in accordance to BP's

[bitter turtle]

it is the majority of your gameplay to miss bp for rashad and v7 at least

[torn inlet]

but your gear isn’t shit ( usually)

[bitter turtle]

217 gunner killed would be lower if i wasnt oneshotting them 😔

[terse idol]

I mean, I will gurantee you

[austere mica]

And you can make it even less shit by building breakpoints

[terse idol]

Most QP' players are unoptimized WHICH IS FINE

[bitter turtle]

ya that's why most qp players also do half my dmg

[terse idol]

😌

[bitter turtle]

and i kill more elites than all of them combined together

[terse idol]

That iis the truth

[pulsar radish]

Watch out we got a badass lol

[terse idol]

Like, if you build to optimize damage, well I mean this is honestly a good discussion on how much of a team game Darktide is

[bitter turtle]

opposite lul

[terse idol]

If anything the theory becomes

[bitter turtle]

im not bragging about my skill

im saying its the gear

if they take like 4 shots to kill a gunner

and i take 1

who is going to have more kills

by far

[terse idol]

The AI director spawns as many waves as there are players, so everyone at minimum players have to have enough damage to deal with their wave

[bitter turtle]

in fact it happens often, they shoot a gunner and then i delete it and take the kill lmao

[torn inlet]

right. its also not a solo game. you miss one bp on one enemy due to your gear/ build? its not that big of a deal, plenty of other enemies and team damage going around.

[terse idol]

I mean

You miss 1 BP and the enemy is at 40hp

[pulsar radish]

I mean that's cool lol, but if they put three in, and you hit it you have overkilled it

[terse idol]

AnAnd that's pretty bad

And this happens

This is why the plasmagun has like 2 bp's

[bitter turtle]

in general im doing like 2x their dmg because of my gear though

so any time im not overkilling im also literally playing with a 2x advantage in dmg

so ofc i outdamage them hard

i have mod to check ppl gear

[pulsar radish]

Ugh your reminding me I need to get my columns blessing

[bitter turtle]

its always the same story

[torn inlet]

oh it feels bad. but meh. lots of targets. for auto guns you just shoot ONE bullet more.

pg also staggers shit and causes enemies to run for cover. its not that big of a deal

[bitter turtle]

its really not so much skill

[terse idol]

You could have built for the BP, so you can be efficient

[bitter turtle]

skill is just not dying like a mong

which i die plenty

[terse idol]

I mean 1 extra plasma gun shot is expensie

[bitter turtle]

me shitting out 2x dmg is because my gear is 2x strong

[torn inlet]

that assumes you don’t already or can’t just garge and one shot to begin with

[bitter turtle]

and the game lets you get headshots easy with planet sized bullets on some guns

[pulsar radish]

I mean you would be. That's literally what you've admitted too. If you one shot it - they do 75 damage out of a 100, you hit 100, you've wasted 75 lol.

[austere mica]

A max ammo plasma gets 86 uncharged and 28 charged

Also heat

[bitter turtle]

ya, but what about the cases where im popping off 4 gunners in the time they take to kill 1

if i ignore the one they're shooting

like i said, not a skill issue in this case

they need 4 shots

i need 1

[pulsar radish]

If you do that your pog.

[bitter turtle]

idk about pog

they're all standing together lmao

im just spamming shots into them

[terse idol]

But wait

Charging is terrible

[pulsar radish]

Imo not dying is pretty important.

[bitter turtle]

its not some 360 noscope shit

[terse idol]

This is why

The pgun is broken af anyways

You have 2 EASY breakpoints

[austere mica]

Charging sucks for PG

[pulsar radish]

Because dying is net loss on damage

[terse idol]

And Charging

uses 3x's as much ammo

You NEVER charge

[bitter turtle]

ya, not dying is the main skill in this game, as i said

[pulsar radish]

Charging actually sucks eggs.

[terse idol]

And especially not for gunners

[bitter turtle]

your dmg reflects your gear more than anything imo

[terse idol]

cause before I knew the BP

[austere mica]

Takes way to long to kill something like a gunner and uses 9 ammo as well as more heat

[torn inlet]

for noobs it is. advanced players know when to charge

[terse idol]

I charged gunners

[pulsar radish]

I hate the PG with a passion

[bitter turtle]

and your ability to not eat dirt is more about your skill

[terse idol]

You run out of ammo SO FAST*

[terse idol]

??

What the hell

do you know

[bitter turtle]

yeah, when you have 7+ crushers standing in a perfectly straight line, since uncharged still penetrates 6 :^)

[terse idol]

That 2 uncharged shots from the plasma gun is more dps than 1 charged shot
And the uncharged shots come out faster?

[torn inlet]

Look , i spam primary fire a lot, but there will be times where i do and should ve charging

[terse idol]

So you can literally

[austere mica]

Yeah and it’s anything wearing carapace, ogryns, and bosses

[terse idol]

Kill something faster

By spamming left clicks

[austere mica]

Notably not gunners

[terse idol]

Than the 1 time

You charge

1 Charged shot

Also...

[torn inlet]

dreg yes sometimes, scab no,

[terse idol]

This is going into the whole TR discussion

You can get 8 shots uncharged

[bitter turtle]

u know you have to charge for dreg because you're not optimizing your gun right

[terse idol]

This benefits from

Blaze it and get's hot

[austere mica]

I have a dreg oneshot bp though so I never need to charge them

[terse idol]

Yeah

Scab gunner BP is actually pretty easy

The dredge gunner requires 1 perk

[torn inlet]

nah, it’s optimized for other priorities because frankly dreg gunners aren’t that big of a threat

[terse idol]

Which is another reason why plasma gun building is bran dead

[terse idol]

[austere mica]

Scab gunner bp is like base 80% damage right?

[bitter turtle]

for what, groaner damage?

[terse idol]

You know this is why people run 2x gunner res right

Because gunners on Damnation will shred you like swiss cheese

Also it's a matter of ammo efficiency

You don't want to 2 shot a dredge gunner

And you DEFIENTLY

don't want to charge shot them

Because that takes EVEN MORE AMMO

Than just shooting them twice

[austere mica]

With a 2 shot gunner you can kill 43 before bottoming your ammo

And 28 if you charge them

[terse idol]

Yeah, crazy right?

[austere mica]

And this is with a 80% roll

[terse idol]

My man

Drasca

Don't tell me I don't know the plasma gun

[austere mica]

You can kill 86 with the oneshot

[terse idol]

I went through the stages of learning it

because I didn't even know about the dredge gunner BP

[pulsar radish]

Dreg gunners are fucking shocking in damnation

[terse idol]

honestly both gunners are

[torn inlet]

eh, i stopped doing that because for pg users, you can shoot from a distance and their ranged damage falloff is stupidly high, meaning they do shit all for damage vs you at range

let alone that the pg suppresses them

or if you’re a sneaky melee build you can literally backstab them

[pulsar radish]

Literally.

[terse idol]

All it takes is a pack of 6 or 7 gunners

[bitter turtle]

what is gunner

[terse idol]

And they'll shred you

[bitter turtle]

all i see is free kill feed frags

[terse idol]

Uh

[austere mica]

I do my research before investment so I knew the dreg bp is a pain in the ass but tag made it so much easier

[terse idol]

This is not that discussion

Peegun

Just has a BP

[pulsar radish]

I love focus target.

[terse idol]

It's important.

All guns

Have drop off

Oaky

Like frankly

Plasmagun has so much damage the drop off doesn't matter as much...

[bitter turtle]

hes saying

[terse idol]

You run long-shot

[torn inlet]

incorrect, some dont and some actually ramp up with range

[bitter turtle]

the enemy gunners

have falloff

[terse idol]

Oh

Uh

[bitter turtle]

either way though

ur still taking 2x the amount of shots to kill them

[shrewd sable]

ye he meant enemy has falloff so no need to run 36% DR

[bitter turtle]

so idk what the point you're making is

[terse idol]

I mean you still definetly don't want to shoot gunners, and gunners who are closer will shred you

[terse idol]

Uh

Sorry, I'm being cheeky

[bitter turtle]

smh this is why i stopped running survivalist

[terse idol]

Gunner res is run because

[bitter turtle]

all these ppl with their free ammo handouts

[terse idol]

You get situations like in the first carnival drop off

Where gunners will be close enough to do

Near max damage

And shred you instantly if you're not ready

[austere mica]

And run your shit

[terse idol]

Yeah

And that room also spawns shotgunners

But that's it's own problem

It's not in the scope of this discussion

[torn inlet]

strawman. you’ll get rekt if you are a shit player regardless

[terse idol]

??

[austere mica]

Shotgunner bps might as well not exist for plasma

[bitter turtle]

i dont really care about gunner res myself tbh

but i will say

[terse idol]

You hit me with the

Gunners have damage drop
And
Skill usse if you're a shit player

[bitter turtle]

gunner and rager bps are probably the most important ones i care about

[terse idol]

I dunno chief

[bitter turtle]

just because they usually are the most common

[shrewd sable]

Ye I'm not saying I agree with it or disagree with it; I still havent figured out if I like gunner curios or not except maybe on ogryn? But I was just clarifying what the message meant is all

[terse idol]

I just don't think you know what you're talking about

[bitter turtle]

elites i mean

[torn inlet]

ive run gunner resist tbh, its just not that important

[terse idol]

that's fair

I think it's frankly valid for everyone

[austere mica]

I have a shovel with maniac and a power sword ragers aren’t real

[terse idol]

It's a very common damage type

It's always useful

It'll save you from alot of chip damage

[torn inlet]

play with it. it really depends on context, build, playstyle, maps fought etc

[terse idol]

You will

Always

[torn inlet]

nah

[terse idol]

Meet Dredge and Scab gunners

[austere mica]

I still need to unfuck my curios

[terse idol]

Unless you're playing the maps where it's Scab only mostly melee

[austere mica]

I have no idea what is good for them

[bitter turtle]

i just do toughness/hp/stam regen personally

[torn inlet]

its not that important for some builds

[terse idol]

Gunners will always exist

[bitter turtle]

or toughness/ability cooldown/stam regen for infil builds

[terse idol]

Which is fair

I'm paranoid, I run 2x gunne res

1x sniper res JUUUST in case

[bitter turtle]

either way

gunner res or not

i always pay attention to gunner bp for guns

[austere mica]

Banished to my storage server

[bitter turtle]

since its u know

the way you usually kill them

with your gun

[terse idol]

And there we go back to the BP discussion thankfully

Yes

[torn inlet]

also honestly kinda worthless outside the sniper specific mission

[terse idol]

I mean

It's just a safety net

Sometimes there is a sniper that will spawn behind me

And I didn't hear it in time

*shrug

[torn inlet]

it won’t stop the sniper from eliminating your toughness bar. you’re genuinely better off with health

[terse idol]

Sniper Horde really... kiinda doesn't matter

[terse idol]

I mean

[austere mica]

Shit happens and you suddenly find out snipers can overpen and now most your health is gone

[terse idol]

You can probably save more HP by blocking 20% of the sniper's damage

Than the amount of HP you can build

[torn inlet]

they have an insane toughness damage multiplier, but their health dmg is shit

[terse idol]

I run 3 max toughness curios

I mean

I can probably still reduce damage more with my 3 toughness curios

And the 20% sniper damage res

Like wait

I mean it depends I guess

[torn inlet]

sniper will still wreck it outside of having a very niche max toughness dmg reduction scenario and even the. wreck… honestly better off with health

[terse idol]

Uh

Eh, preference

Anyways

Bp's are important for gunners

[torn inlet]

Ofc preference. but sniper resist is kinda.. meh

[terse idol]

Important especially for semi-automatic guns

[austere mica]

Max toughness is also good for literally everything else

[terse idol]

Well yeah

VOC is so degenerate

[austere mica]

But the hell else am I going to take res on

[terse idol]

I don't mind just running all toughness

[torn inlet]

nah enemy melee has toughness dmg multis too. better off with health again for that

[terse idol]

Because I know for a fact I can just regenerate all my toughness back through elites killed

[austere mica]

Hey, respect Krubestie

[bitter turtle]

idk

i actually think infil better

[terse idol]

Infil is

[bitter turtle]

if it werent for the horrid pathing

[terse idol]

[austere mica]

Counterpoint: I have literally unlimited toughness

I just need to regenerate it

[terse idol]

But spamming VOC is too crazy for your entire team rn

[austere mica]

By shooting like 3 things

[bitter turtle]

like playing it a lot recently

90% of the time

[torn inlet]

voice? i like it but inf is indeed fun

[bitter turtle]

the way i use voc

infil would have been better

[terse idol]

Hmm

[bitter turtle]

now you might ask

"but you dont buff your team"

fuck my team

[terse idol]

I spam VOC before and then during 😌

Also yes

[bitter turtle]

they can get their own toughness and their own ammo

no handouts here

[terse idol]

Again, this if anything is a problem with things that give damage...
People build for their own BP's

[torn inlet]

honestly inf is better with a shit team because you could hypothetically pick them up

voice scales better with a better team

[terse idol]

Nobody builds to help other people reach a BP they didn't know they have

[terse idol]

Infil will kill a team faster because you're picking them up
At least imo

If the team is going down faster because they're bad

More toughness

Is gonna help them go down less

The more they go down

The more likely they're gonna die when you pick them up

[bitter turtle]

if only

i could take infil with v7

that's my dream

🙏 to obese fish

[torn inlet]

haha no no, you kill everything else because you’re invis then pick them up

[terse idol]

Okay then what

They're missing a wound

They're still bad

They're gonna go down

😌

[torn inlet]

https://tenor.com/view/ivan-drago-rocky-mad-boxing-gif-12740361343431073274

[austere mica]

The 3 crushers charging overheads:

[terse idol]

Infil doesn't suddenly make bad players good

[torn inlet]

one of my favorite targets for pg, ngl

[terse idol]

At least VOC keeps them alive to take hits for you

[bitter turtle]

let them die again

[torn inlet]

that assumes they’re in range

[austere mica]

Yes but who in their right mind runs PG and infiltrate

[bitter turtle]

stealth past and pick them up at the next rescue

:^)

[torn inlet]

hey, that’s not true. no one is in their right mind playing this game

[terse idol]

https://tenor.com/view/die-grünen-worker-hammer-birgit-gif-18152440

[austere mica]

The range of voc is your coherencey range, if they are out something’s wrong

[bitter turtle]

you're damn right there's something wrong

[terse idol]

Second if you run uhh, that one perk that drops agro for infiltrate

You're DEFINETLY

[bitter turtle]

they're too slow

OR

[terse idol]

Killing your team

[bitter turtle]

if they're running ahead

[terse idol]

Of bad players

[bitter turtle]

then they're not picking up plasteel

[torn inlet]

typical qp player doesn’t stay in coherency lol

[terse idol]

😌

[bitter turtle]

its like that saying

anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot

[terse idol]

If they're bad

Yeah

[bitter turtle]

anyone who drives faster is a lunatic

[torn inlet]

average are bad lol

[bitter turtle]

how dare they not move at th exact same speed as me

[terse idol]

See this is maybe why we don't want to base our examples by playing with the lowest common denominator

[bitter turtle]

this is why i dont give them toughness and ammo

[austere mica]

Wrong, almost every time I pop voc all the healthbars go yellow and the happy chemicals get released

[terse idol]

Again, I'll stand by it

[torn inlet]

are you sure you aren’t eating mushrooms?

[terse idol]

Infil does however let you clutch situations

[torn inlet]

both are fun

[austere mica]

Not the hallucinogenic kind

[torn inlet]

https://tenor.com/view/the-road-to-el-dorado-both-both-is-good-gif-8304204

[austere mica]

Other mushrooms are good

[bitter turtle]

holy fuck this dumb ass conversation distracted me from drawing

i hate all of you

[terse idol]

Gonna roll it back to say, BP's are important, uhh, learn your Pgun

*dab

[torn inlet]

I don’t expect ideal situations or to play solo in this coop pve game. sometimes you’ll miss shots, sometimes you’ll miss bps, c’est la vie.

You’re also misreading the narrative. its not that bps aren’t a factor or you don’t build for them in mind, but you can achive most of them or factor that in with high tier 2/4 weapons and can get them reliably

you can chase godrolls after that, but you’ll have the vast majority of your effectiveness with readibly obtainable weapons

[terse idol]

You don't miss BP's

[torn inlet]

some weapons are clearly more sensitive to blessing / perks tha. others

[terse idol]

Well like.. urghhhhhhhh

The issue is blessings are kinda fucked, because there's like

2

Max

Out of the entire pool

that actually make a weapon "good"

Perks too

Like Flaniac

Carapace

You never want Groaners, reload speed

Crit damage etc.

Because they don't do anything or the modifier is so small

It doesn't even change your gun

[torn inlet]

disagree on reload. there are exceptions

[terse idol]

Reload is terrible on that tiny modifier

Because the best reload

Is on the talent tree

[torn inlet]

9s base reload time on pg lol iirc

[terse idol]

Okay?

You have staged reloading

You fire MANY SHOTS

Before you ever need to reload

You just

[torn inlet]

forgot what it was for shotties

[terse idol]

Pick talents in the tre

[austere mica]

If you need to reload plasma in a scenario when it’s time matters shit is fucked

[terse idol]

To reduce your reload lol

[pulsar radish]

Can't you speed it up by animation skipping. For og.

Pg

[terse idol]

Uh

Abiiit

Some animations you NEED to do

[torn inlet]

its about half with staged

[austere mica]

Also plasma has a 43 shot magazine

[terse idol]

Like the winding down the mag

But agian

Reload isn't valuable as a perk

Because what

You can get instead

20%

In the tree

Without sacraficing damage

[torn inlet]

right. some are better than others, but pg also overkills a LOT of enemies

[terse idol]

Uh

This is why

You build the PB

😌

[pulsar radish]

Imo I don't find reload a good talent point.

[austere mica]

Instead of taking 10 reload on a gun that doesn’t need it I could be taking 25% damage on an enemy type that I can’t oneshot

[terse idol]

So you don't get massive overkills on dredge gunners

[pulsar radish]

shrug

[terse idol]

Me neither

I mean

It's okay

But, I just tihnk the top part of the tree

There's alot of better things

[pulsar radish]

I'd never take it, it's just not worth it over the other perks in the top end.

[terse idol]

I mean

[torn inlet]

often the case with pg, if you have to two shot, you’re going to. e two shotting regardless of other dmg perks

[terse idol]

It dpeends, I'll take it on a pgun

[austere mica]

If you need to reload your plasma you are slightly fucked just because of what it implies

[pulsar radish]

I also don't use plasma.

[terse idol]

because there's not alot of talents at the top that

Actually affect BP's on plasma

Besides the longshot

[terse idol]

Wrong

My man

How can you be so wrong

[pulsar radish]

Long shot is iffy too.

[terse idol]

Oh my god

[torn inlet]

rare that those enemies are a threat.

[terse idol]

If you have to two shot...

[austere mica]

25% gets you over the crusher bar right

[terse idol]

if you have to..

You don't

because THIS IS WHY WE BUILD EITHER UNARMOURED

OR +SPECS

Oh my goodneess

🥹

[austere mica]

I’ll grab my PG give a second

[terse idol]

Uh

[wanton dawn]

The hell are we talking about that create so much... friction ?

[torn inlet]

Depends on build. Its stupidly easy to one shot a crusher on an TBBT build

[terse idol]

Iirc, Carapace itself won't hange the crusher BP

It'll usually be the 3 shot

[terse idol]

What is this meaningless Acronymn

🥹

[austere mica]

There we go

[torn inlet]

Some people don’t realize how easy it is to hit BP

[terse idol]

You can one shot a crusher with a crit charged headshot

[wanton dawn]

Two shot crusher with plasma is not super reliable cuz they fall on their butt, making weakspot hard to hit twice

[terse idol]

But like

Oh no yeah

[torn inlet]

I like that weapon. but personally inprefer blazing to Glory.

[terse idol]

I kinda mispoke the 3 shot is consitant

And they get the big stagger

[austere mica]

I never use blaze away

[terse idol]

Glory is fine

[austere mica]

And it had gloryhunter 4 as a natural

[terse idol]

Gets hot > Blaze it=Glory hunter

[torn inlet]

yeah i saw that. I have multiple pgs myself

[austere mica]

It allows me to trade with gunners like a crazy bitch

[terse idol]

Also glory hunter has...

An intersting interaction with VOC

You can just kinda fill up the funny yellooow

Iirc

[austere mica]

It does?

[terse idol]

Time to test it

[torn inlet]

it does

[terse idol]

[torn inlet]

last time i checked

could be wrong

[terse idol]

I run glory hunter on my unhinged born leader build

Kinda funny

[torn inlet]

Voice PG is very fun

[wanton dawn]

Pg has little reason to take other ult though

[terse idol]

Anyways, you rarely need to two shot

[austere mica]

That thing was like my second plasma too it makes me so happy

[terse idol]

Damn it Drasca

You can't escape by deflecting

This ain't hockey

[torn inlet]

right because PG one shots most things EASILY and overkills them. there are very few times you need to two shot

[terse idol]

most enemies puhgun can one shot

[torn inlet]

that was the whole point

[terse idol]

It doesn't overkill them

By much

This is why the dredge gunner BP is close

[austere mica]

Shotguns

[wanton dawn]

Longshot help a lot against shotgunner bodyshot

[torn inlet]

it isn't rational, but its FUN to do inf PG

[terse idol]

because the overkill is like 100 over roughly

but if you don't meet the gunner BP

The overkill is like

1100

[austere mica]

You cry your damn eyes out

[wanton dawn]

Gunner are a non issue with plasma though

[terse idol]

Well yeah

But you gotta build the dredge bp

That's just the whole discussion we had

[wanton dawn]

Not really imo

[terse idol]

WAA

NOO CRAIIME

[wanton dawn]

Sorry, already had the discussiol before

[austere mica]

Focus target made gunner breakpoint so much easier

[terse idol]

https://tenor.com/view/spiderman-death-dissolved-infinity-war-avengers-gif-18666629

[austere mica]

And not because of main focus damage

[terse idol]

I just played with and without the dredge gunner BP

And it's a load different

[austere mica]

Because of the team buff that gives like just enough

[terse idol]

well yeah

Focus target makes it easy

Again this is different philosophy at work

I'm in the boat of making the BP as brain dead as possible

[austere mica]

I mean the damage you get for killing a focused target

[terse idol]

So I'm building the Dredge gunner BP so I can do the least work to kill them

[austere mica]

With one of the branches of the main keystone

[terse idol]

I don't even want to think about maintaining redirect fire stacks

Just to meet the BP

[wanton dawn]

I dont think gunner are dangerous enough to justify bp investment

[austere mica]

I miss anyway it’s fine

[terse idol]

I'm gonna make the pgun as brain dead as humanely possible

[terse idol]

Eh, it's why folks are running like +spec

[wanton dawn]

Especially when we have anti gunner curios

[terse idol]

Which is certainly better than running unarmoured, I will concede as much

[trim hemlock]

So, without going into the entire discussion, what would be a TLDR for a “brain dead” PG?

[bitter turtle]

i just want you all to know that drawing boobs is way more fun than arguing about whether groaner damage is technically useful on a ps6 because you might do an uncharged light sometimes

[wanton dawn]

I run carapace flak on mine cuz i only play plasma in no ammo these days

[austere mica]

Counterpoint: Plasma vet ping and click adventure

[terse idol]

Blaze it and either Glory hunter, or Blaze it

And + spec

[terse idol]

Talent tree

+Weak points

+spec damage

[trim hemlock]

What about the other perk?

[terse idol]

Or is it elites

[wanton dawn]

Hmm ?

[terse idol]

Maniac?

[wanton dawn]

Ping is not gunner specific

[terse idol]

I forgor but are dredge gunners

[austere mica]

Hold the fuck up does one of those have groaners

[terse idol]

Spec or elites

What is a spec

What is an eliiite

[bitter turtle]

they are elites

[torn inlet]

i admit i haven't specced every one out... but I have spent way too much on them lol

[bitter turtle]

elites are enemies that attack in the same way as normal mobs, just harder

specialists have sound cues and unique attacks

[terse idol]

Oh

[austere mica]

No it was one of you picked perks

[trim hemlock]

I think if we’ve been discussing Dreg gunner bp, it might be +Elites you have in mind?

[terse idol]

@trim hemlock sorry you run +elites for perk

Yeah

It honestly is more versatile

[trim hemlock]

Yeah, I have acquired the big brain skill called deduction

[terse idol]

[torn inlet]

back when it was rolled lol

and couldn't pick direclty

[austere mica]

No you picked it

[trim hemlock]

Solid input, though, cheers

[austere mica]

It has the gear icon

[trim hemlock]

I was mainly looking into updating my PG knowledge database

[wanton dawn]

He meant when we had to roll them

[austere mica]

Oh I may be stupid

It’s 2 am

[trim hemlock]

I don’t plan to use PG for as long as it takes for FS to nerf the stupid cleave on the thing

[torn inlet]

anachronistic roll

[terse idol]

Mainly building for the whole
IN MY OPINION
Dredge gunner BP, and a 3 shot crusher BP

All uncharged

blahh

No added effort

Just point and click adventure

[austere mica]

I have no idea if I do the crusher bp

But I have a ps6 so it’s irrelevant

I need to go back to shovel the power sword brain rot is setting in

[torn inlet]

right. that too. its not like you only have one weapon

[austere mica]

I need to try when I have to defend myself

[torn inlet]

that game is not over if you somehow miss

[wanton dawn]

Everytime i try another weapon than ps i feel super weak

[austere mica]

The chemical dependency

[torn inlet]

what about PS, or PS

3 vs 6 feel diff

[terse idol]

No it's over 😌
And this is coming from someone who plays alot of weapon spec

You get punished a 🤏
If you miss

[austere mica]

I have a six because of the funny combo

[terse idol]

But the revolver is so strong, it's not a big deal lmao

[torn inlet]

i know. they're both great. but i was making a joke abou tMrCraime lolol

[austere mica]

The agripinna casually having a onefan build for most monsters

I remember seeing someone post that in the vet builds thread the day it came out

[terse idol]

I gotta try it

Thought it got nerfed

I just play mag dump bolter with Exe and focus target now

to delete bosses

[trim hemlock]

This technically qualifies, doesn't it? I have no idea what the Unarmoured perk is doing here, but I suppose it might as well become a Maniac perk

[torn inlet]

another exmple where bp doesn't matter cause magdump lol

[terse idol]

Yeah

I mean, again i'd definetly test, the break point, but dat'sjust meee

[torn inlet]

that's a nice gun!

[trim hemlock]

I have the psykhanium testing mod, so it shouldn't be a problem once I find some time

[terse idol]

Try the + elites, with longshot, weakpoint damage and +elites in your talent tree

And see if you can't hit the dredge gunner buhpeh

[trim hemlock]

By "WS damage" you mean Precision Strikes?

[torn inlet]

honestly, the stat ranges of the vast majority of pg just doesn't matter much. sure. yes you can have hypothetically worst pg ever, but that's unrealistic

[terse idol]

Yuh

[terse idol]

well, dump damage, 😌

[torn inlet]

i've tested thermal resistence at low and high for example. its a difference of 1 uncharged shot

[terse idol]

I wonder how low we can go

If you just dump damage and stopping power

[trim hemlock]

I certainly will not miss the few more shots I could have had with higher Ammo, but the dump stats have to happen...

[terse idol]

uh

60% TR and 80% is like 2 shots

WHICH CAN MATTER
I will say, because if you're running blaze it then you get more value from more shots TEHNICALLY

[torn inlet]

its literally 7 vs 8

[terse idol]

Oh

Then we hit that 70% tr 😌

honestly dump CR 😌

[torn inlet]

lemme do a retest and see if anything has changed

CR is also basically worthless on PG too

[terse idol]

Best Pguns might just be minimum 70% TR, dump on CR

And then damage, and ammo stuff

[torn inlet]

Best PG's are 80 dmg and stopping

ammo is nice to have

[terse idol]

high ammo is allways nice

Yuhh

[torn inlet]

the rest don't matter

[terse idol]

well I will say, you do want 1 extra shot

That... at minimum

Can be the difference between winning or losing IN THEORY

[torn inlet]

that's assuming you shoot all at once

and assuming you don't do a charged shot at the end

[terse idol]

I just never charge

[torn inlet]

that's playable but not ideal

[terse idol]

Because you won't blow up with uncharged shots

[torn inlet]

lemme do a quick retest

[terse idol]

I mean, yes if I want to shoot gunners or bombers through walls I'll charge

But for the most of the game it's uncharged gaming

[torn inlet]

ofc. most of the time

but sometimes you should charged

its not ideal if you don't use it appropriately

ok bought a bunch of greys

lowest TR i can actually get

nightmare fuel though

[frank basin]

The shitma

[tough tiger]

Sugma

[frank basin]

Sugma gun

[torn inlet]

6 shotrs vs 8 shots at max spam. but realistically aren't going to spam that fast and will be a difference of 1 uncharged most of the time.... also extremely unrealistic to go this low of a TR

For example, would be a perfectly serviceable PG

[frank basin]

Super hot

Super hot

Super hot

[terse idol]

okay okay so it was 2 shots, I wasn't craazy

But I guess on a 60tr it's 7

[torn inlet]

right, and if you don't spam its going to recharge., its unrealistic to have 28% TR

LOL even with this pos gray i can two shot a crusher without pressing f

granted its stopping power is nice

K even with this, a charged shot takes out 3/4ths the health of a crusher on headshot.

two shots them on body