veteran-class

[bitter turtle]

the problem is

[lilac jungle]

I mean its a crusher, its not that hard to dance sround

[bitter turtle]

when you wep specialist psword

[terse idol]

I still think rashad is on par with psword or better

[bitter turtle]

basically all the weaknesses are gone

[lilac jungle]

Psword is baby easy mode

[bitter turtle]

the dodges become smooth as fuck

and you're just a meatgrinder of death with those fast swings

[terse idol]

Again 1 less dodge makes it harder and dodge distance is goofy

[bitter turtle]

also psword needs less tree commitment

[torn root]

I dont even use this and i still just think PSword is a bit braindead

[terse idol]

Wait then a rashad weapon spec would gain as much too

Eg

[bitter turtle]

rashad NEEDS

[terse idol]

Eh

[bitter turtle]

a lot of nodes on the tree

[terse idol]

That is true

[bitter turtle]

psword can literally have fucking nothing and still 2shot crushers and 1shot bruisers

[lilac jungle]

goofy sure, but a dodge slide is perfectly fine, and 1 push gives you plenty of time for them to come back

[torn root]

this is a no

i tested that one thoroughly

[lilac jungle]

COrrect

[bitter turtle]

there's areason why i still psword on my v7 tree even though i would prefer rashad mobility

[torn root]

you Do kinda need damage

[bitter turtle]

well

the damage you need is damage your gun already wants

is what i mean

so u already take those nodes

rashad needs nodes JUST for rashad

even if it does fuck all for your gun

like that 10% melee ndoe

[lilac jungle]

I think you need one of damage/finess at 80 and PC 3 for the push attack/downward strike combo

[terse idol]

I just run revolver rashad and revolver gains abiiit, although the rending is redundant

[torn root]

70/70 with weakspot and bring it down is a minimum i think you could get away with on PSword

[terse idol]

And likely not changing bps

[bitter turtle]

yeah but like

that's already much less investment

[lilac jungle]

Still need PC 3 for the 2hit combo

[torn root]

and you'd need 25% cara and 10% elite on it

[terse idol]

Well you need pc4

[bitter turtle]

i NEED precision strikes, 5% melee, desperado to hit the bruiser bp on my 2nd rashad

[torn root]

thats a given

[terse idol]

If we're speaking or like true min max

[lilac jungle]

No, just enough to kill a crisher

[bitter turtle]

and that's already a very near min-maxed rashad that just barely gets to skip 10% melee

[stone dome]

Haven't played the game in a long while, what do people consider good in weapon perks nowadays? Aside from crit on crit builds

[torn root]

PC3 is literally the only neccessity for the weapon, with 80/80 you can 2 shot without any other blessing

[lilac jungle]

depends on what

[torn root]

with minimal investment

[bitter turtle]

ig the point is just

any dmg up perks psword needs also helps ur gun anyway

its stuff you naturally pick up on a gun focused build

meanwhile if i try to drop rashad on v7 i have to give up alot

just to make it function

[stone dome]

Ah, so this is a breakpoint bs like back in vermintide i suppose?

[torn root]

just talking about the neccessity to kill in 2 hits

[lilac jungle]

Yeah kinda? But this all started when i said that damage is kind of a dump stat.

[bitter turtle]

which is not

[torn root]

someone last week made me super jelly now i need a PSword with 80/80 and sunder

[bitter turtle]

that's just the grey parser's take

:^)

jk

[lilac jungle]

Well its not on your Rashad build, but for most others, it could be

probably

[bitter turtle]

well let me put it this way

i havent seen one yet where i dont barely make the dmg threshold for SOMETHING

[stone dome]

whats a rashad build

[bitter turtle]

and went "ok let me just drop 20 damage"

[lilac jungle]

that depends on what the threshhold is for right?

[muted knot]

A build that takes the Rashad combat axe from okay to pretty good

[bitter turtle]

rashad combat axe, one of the best melee weapons but needs a super sweaty minmaxed stats on the weapon

[torn root]

oh thats disrespectful

[bitter turtle]

to function

[torn root]

i think the rashad is good at base

i just didnt like it as much as other weapons

[muted knot]

I don't think it is

[lilac jungle]

I agree, but its a Can opener, not a street sweeper.

[bitter turtle]

i think its hard to justify it over a folding shovel at base

[torn root]

only weapon I actually dont like at base is shovel and dagger

[lilac jungle]

which knife?

i like the mk3

[stone dome]

oh boy

[lilac jungle]

then the mk5 is a horde clear knife? Its weird to me

[torn root]

I hate knives in general mostly because i have shit tier blessings atm

[lilac jungle]

haha

Dont i know that

[bitter turtle]

knives are pretty obnoxious to build as well

[torn root]

basically my entire time playing this game is i dont touch a weapon until i get a few t3 blessings

Misérable existence

[bitter turtle]

4 dmg stats

at least the perks can be flexible

blessings are kinda flexible

[lilac jungle]

Does Lacerate ever suck though

[stone dome]

perks kind of mandate a crit chance on the knives

[lilac jungle]

LIke it does

[bitter turtle]

lacerate is shit

on vet at least

[lilac jungle]

So bad

So terribly bad on everyong

[bitter turtle]

idk about zealots

since they may or may not need a bleed or something? idk idc

its shit on vet at least

[lilac jungle]

It is bad

Zealot has bleed on crit at the top of the tree

[bitter turtle]

nah

5% crit is whatever

drop in the pond compared to the base crit + what you can get in the tree

[lilac jungle]

Yep

[bitter turtle]

its probably one of the inferior perks to get

that are still workable at elast

[torn root]

literally the bottom of the barrel imo along with extra stamina

[stone dome]

base is 5 % and you can get up to 20% with the melee tree if im not wrong

[bitter turtle]

well

[lilac jungle]

I mean its not the worst, because more crits are always nice, and what else are you going to put on the knife

[bitter turtle]

i'd take 5% crit over specialist damage

at least

lol

or pox damage

[stone dome]

this(on the knife)

[bitter turtle]

well

10% specialist damage

[stone dome]

and recon lasgun crit build

[bitter turtle]

is literally one of the absolute worst perks

so

its not saying much

[torn root]

i always look at it from a math perspective

[bitter turtle]

5% crit is pretty bad in the end

[torn root]

5% is .2% damage increase

🙂

[strange grove]

5% crit chance is great tho

[bitter turtle]

i think you cant necessarily put it that way since crit has inherent rending

[lilac jungle]

I mean Zealots get 30% crit for free, and the knife has a higher crit chance already

[bitter turtle]

i actually am kinda fond of riposte as a blessing just bc its really consistent crits on crushers

if i cant get precog at least

[torn root]

was a slight diss, my bad

[stone dome]

you dont run a knife on a zealot though, kind of redundant

[lilac jungle]

Why not? its a crit machine, and with Piety you just get more use out of the Finess damage

[torn root]

sir?

[stone dome]

when an axe cat hit at the speed of a knife

[torn root]

lmao i think you havent been playing recently

[bitter turtle]

knife is a lot more popular on zealot than vet at leaset

[torn root]

knife zealots have been both plague and boon this past 2 months

[lilac jungle]

True

[unreal bone]

Is Deadshot worth it with a Kantrael XII lasgun?

[stone dome]

nope, last i played perk tree wasnt a thing

[junior needle]

Lacerate is still a trap on zealot. You can get a massive amount of crit so if you want to focus bleed you'd just go flesh tearer.

[junior needle]

yes, generally

[bitter turtle]

that's fair

i dont know much about knifelot

[torn root]

from zealot you literally get 55% from the tree alone

assuming you are stacking bleed

[lilac jungle]

Well Zealot can get 55% crit from the tree with just 3 nodes,

One is a keystone

But the other is right at the top of the tree

[bitter turtle]

but yeah

im somewhat fond of riposte

very consistent 3tap on crusher since you get a buttload of crit

also doesnt need to go down serrated blade like mercy killer

[torn root]

i just dont know what the tree value is if you go knife invis with blazing piety

stretched thin imo

[lilac jungle]

Oh god, you just reminded me of a zealot i saw with Lacerate and Uncanny Strike on their knife

I was just confused

You take one of the best headshot weapons, and try and only hit bodyshots with it?

But you also have extra rending on headshot?

[junior needle]

It is a thinly stretched build if you're going for permastealth but it works very well.

[lilac jungle]

Constant stealth, extra safe since teammates take aggro, iirc you still have points for the CD on backstab as well

[torn root]

if i ever get my t3s I'll try it

[lilac jungle]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9b371b32-62cd-471a-a6c8-8221be1757d3/test-23?utm_medium=website&utm_source=gameslantern&utm_campaign=share_button

its stretched thin, but you can get both CD talents

or you dont take those last 2 on the right side and put them somewhere else

[torn root]

I wish fully Loaded and Superiority Complex swapped places on vet tree

shit would make me so happy

[lilac jungle]

yeah

Like sure extra ammo is nice, but Survivalist exists so who cares?

[torn root]

+25% ammo is legit useless in the eyes of a Survivalist user

[lilac jungle]

Shock trooper is just a horrendously bad talent as well.

[torn root]

and in general i think its just one more mag, and not even a full one on most guns

[junior needle]

25% is pretty good, but it depends on the gun

All ammo pickups are % of your reserve

So increasing reserve increases the value of all ammo replenishment sources

[bitter turtle]

i apprecciate it somewhat on some guns

but yeah i mean if it swpaped places that would be much stronger

but yeah i mean

[torn root]

maybe its useful on the heavy hitting low ammo guns

[bitter turtle]

lik eon v7

[junior needle]

Shock trooper works perfectly fine on guns that aren't recon

[bitter turtle]

er

[lilac jungle]

on most guns its a decent ammount, but survivalist is so good that there is literally no reason to ever take another aura, especially since all the talents before the Aura's SUCK.

[bitter turtle]

v3*

having it is nice

[torn root]

but generally i think more damage vs ammo on rapid fire weapons would be better

[junior needle]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/build-editor?id=9b371c3a-ba8c-4ce9-99e5-ad3f7d9ea8ba

[bitter turtle]

agile engagement and tinkerer dont suck

actually

the talents before surv

suck

way more lol

surv is just op though

[lilac jungle]

Agile Engagement is the only one that doesnt, but Tinker also sucks dasly

[stone dome]

in any case what do people use on vet nowadays? power sword, axe, shovel?

[bitter turtle]

tinkered frags are good

really good

[untold mulch]

the gun that needed it the most

[bitter turtle]

tinkered kraks are ok

if ur build really sucks at killing bosses

its better than fucking get back in the meme at least

[junior needle]

That's my setup for max permastealth with knoife, I run uncanny/flesh tearer though

[torn root]

Catch a Breath....

[bitter turtle]

catch a breath is

like

[torn root]

why do people sleep on it so much

[bitter turtle]

it would be ok in theory if not everyone went voc

[lilac jungle]

Dont need the extra damage on Krak, extra range or damage on shredders (Tinker doesnt effect the bleed), and smokes are garbage

[bitter turtle]

because people spam voc every 15 seconds in reality so it doesnt help that much

it feels great on exec builds though

but >exec

[torn root]

well

ppl like exec stance

[bitter turtle]

ppl also like recon

[torn root]

big facts

lmao

[bitter turtle]

i still take catch a breath though yeah

[trim hemlock]

Either shovel except the Munitorum one are OK.
Both power swords are OK.
Catachan swords 4/7 are OK.
Chainsword 13g is OK, 4 is less so, but still fairly good.
Both chainaxes are good, 12 is a little more flexible.

[lilac jungle]

Because 8m is a decently long range that any 1 enemy standing there turns it off. Its ok if you are just shooting down a hallway at gunners though.

[bitter turtle]

its value is much more understandable when you don thave a "get all your toughness back instantly" button

it helps you top off between fights

[trim hemlock]

There’s so many good options that separating them further than “OK” or “good” is no use

[torn root]

if you are dash dancing you notice the uptime is very high

[bitter turtle]

but exec is much worse than voc and infil so

it gets overlooked

[torn root]

also its more for taking on ranged engagements

[lilac jungle]

IIRC powersword 6 is better if you are good with the combos and animation canceling the powerup, but 3 is easier to use

[trim hemlock]

Combat axes 2/5 are still OK obviously (5 less so, it’s kind of slow)

[torn root]

but wall hacks!

LMAO

[bitter turtle]

something something crutch just git gud never get hit

honest to god, on v7, exec does nothing but add 100 dmg against crushers

[stone dome]

cheers mate

[bitter turtle]

useless

on the archetypal sniper gun 😔

[torn root]

I personally love the M13G Chainsword

[lilac jungle]

Maybe? 8m is a pretty long range though, a dodge slide can MAYBE get you 8 meters away, but thats if they dont walk towards you

[trim hemlock]

Literally play anything you want/like for your build and compensate for the weapon’s shortcomings

Veteran doesn’t have truly awful melee weapon categories

[bitter turtle]

tac axes kinda suck

[torn root]

its more for ranged engagements anyway, but i am still geting good value from it on auric

[trim hemlock]

Tactical axes overlap with Combat blade somewhat

[torn root]

its value over the course of a run

[bitter turtle]

backstab radar!

[stone dome]

been doing that, i just want to know what to look out for in the shop when stuff comes up

[bitter turtle]

either way, not saying its amazing, esp on a voc build, but get back in the fight really is pretty useless

i dont think ive ever really noticed and went "wow that really helped"

[lilac jungle]

Oh definitly, but you still get way more toughness from Confirmed Kill, and Exhilarating Takedown (if you take ET)

[torn root]

I still believe that catch a breath is something that helps avoid a lot of chip damage on vet

[bitter turtle]

to begin with i dont think either of them are particularly amazing, that's why I was contesting what u said about the other auras having bad talents above them

tinkerer and agile are way better

tinker frags are

[lilac jungle]

You dont really need the range though? It only adds about 1.5 meters

[torn root]

you can be bad take a hit, then PSword or just generally kill everything in front of you, get some extra regen and get hit again

it adds on to how brain dead easy it is to sit at max toughness on vet

[bitter turtle]

bigger radius on the best grenade is even better

gives you more leniency on ragers too

u need to hit the explosion for 2frag to kill them

[lilac jungle]

The PS will regen you more toughness from kills then Catch a Breath will

[bitter turtle]

also dotn tell me you've never done 2frag in a room full of spread out gunners to just flush them all out instantly

more bleed radius is great

[torn root]

lieterally the better of the 2 node choices you'd have to take for survivalist

lmao

so yes its worth

[bitter turtle]

you literally have to pick one

ya

[lilac jungle]

ehh, is it for 2 talent points though? You cold be taking Field Improv

[bitter turtle]

how

could you be taking field improv instead

if ur going surv

[torn root]

^

yeah

[lilac jungle]

i mean after you take Surv

[torn root]

like its a highway node and its the better of 2 choices

[torn root]

bro

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/a524179f1bc0481c8dbe8dabd94c244d.jpg

you literally

[torn root]

YEAH!

[bitter turtle]

have to pick one

[torn root]

Lmao

[bitter turtle]

catch a breath or get back in the meme

[lilac jungle]

Im talking about Tinker here

[bitter turtle]

tinker would be if ur going fire team

again

remember

u

yourself

said

[torn root]

if you are taking get back in the fights to get to survivalist imma have to come beat yo ass

[bitter turtle]

the talents above fire team and close and kill are bad

you're not picking between field improv vs tinker

[lilac jungle]

Oh yeah they are

[bitter turtle]

you're picking between tinker vs agile vs catch a breath above the auras

well

in reality

you're picking surv

[lilac jungle]

yeah

[bitter turtle]

so you're stuck with catch a breath

but its not becuas etinker or agile are bad

its not even bc fire team or close and kill are bad compared to other class auras

surv is just broken

[torn root]

oy none of the broken talk

[lilac jungle]

and its ALSO not worth getting Tinker or Agile. Agile because its to far, and Tinker because I dont think its that good

[torn root]

i want my fav aura to stay just as is

tyvm

[sharp ember]

it works exceptionally well

[bitter turtle]

some good players here take the 2 points to get tinker

i can see it on grenade heavy builds

tinkered frags are justr that good

[torn root]

worth getting tinker if you are doing grenade build

[bitter turtle]

as for agile

well yeah, its cursed to be under smoke nades

[torn root]

tinkers does feed into the grenadeir tree really well

[bitter turtle]

you still end up taking it on some builds though

[torn root]

smoke nades need to be changed into something like land mines

[bitter turtle]

like rashads that need the 10% node, or bayonet builds

[sharp ember]

i can imagine survivalist getting the nerf bat and turning into +15% team ammo capacity

[lilac jungle]

Is the grenade build just getting every grenade node? Because a normal Vet build can just take Grenade Regen and Field Improv, and throw like 40+ grenades a match

And thats without going Demo team

[torn root]

actually going undercover just to place land/trip mines would be so cool

but no you can go invis

and use grenades that are usless because you are invis

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/5a81945d63a58d0cb111fa3949a57396.png

[torn root]

who ever made that decision is an idiot

[bitter turtle]

this is my bayo build that takes agile

lul

[sharp ember]

full grenade keystone is hilarious and worth trying with shredder frags

[bitter turtle]

demo team demo stockpile grenadier

i dont think field improv is that impactful for grenading in particular

not that you probably odnt take it anyway

[lilac jungle]

Its a full regarge on your grenades

[torn root]

well with tinker

[lilac jungle]

Or more Ogryn nukes

[torn root]

you can kill more things with nades

[bitter turtle]

fuck the team

as for yourself, u already recharge like crazy with demo team and stockpile

[torn root]

to get more easy procs for demo team

[bitter turtle]

well

you probably take it anyway

just because

but when i ran grenade heavy i valued the other 3 way more

[sharp ember]

ive multi-dipped for grenades very rarely but it’s usually when we have 2 ammo crates and a million enemies

[lilac jungle]

Everything already dies to 2 shredders anyways. Tinker only adds like 75 damage to the Explosion and nothing to the Bleed.

[bitter turtle]

the radius is important

like i said

u need to land the explosion to kill ragers

if you dont, they dont die

[torn root]

you can get kills off of just 1 nade with tinker

[bitter turtle]

and bleed radius is important because that is usually meant to kill gunners/specialists around whatever you're trying to knockdown with the explosion

[torn root]

where normally it leaves dudes with a lil bit of hp

[bitter turtle]

and its very likely they're spread out

im not saying frags are bad w/o it ofc

[torn root]

with tinker the guys farther away from initial impact are more likely to die

[bitter turtle]

its just that it gets even better

[lilac jungle]

Only if they are in the explosion, the bleed radius is much bigger than the explosion

[torn root]

yes but the explosion helps to get them in the kill threshold

the bleed alone is not enough

and because the radius increases that means you have a larger margin to work with before fall off

QoL

[bitter turtle]

i remember

this extremely dumb argument from the past

#veteran-class message

anyway the clip here is helpful

lol

but yeah

you need to land the explosion for the grenades alone to kill

the bleed ca nt do it

so yes, more radius is nice

[lilac jungle]

Sorry, i just tested it

Its 9m normally and 11m with Tinker for the bleed

[torn root]

oh yeah

im still sorry about that i had with nachies

was pissed because we spent so much time 4 ppl telling him if he hits with the explosion he would get more kills

lmao

[bitter turtle]

you guys were basically just arguing about two different things lmao

[strange grove]

god I love the agri brauto so much

[torn root]

well its was 4 ppl telling him it only takes one nade to kill shit

and he was tossing them like a mad man imo

[lilac jungle]

So its only 2m of radius and 90 damage difference (on a scab gunner)

regardless of if you have tinker you still need 2 grenades to kill a gunner

[torn root]

i think yeah, but shredders are mostly for trash mobs

[junior needle]

ShartedBiggly

[torn root]

they just happen to be able to soften up other dudes

[strange grove]

lol

[bitter turtle]

yes, but that's not why you take tinker

you throw them on packs of ragers/crushers/bulwarks to knock them down while the bleed aoe kills everything else

so the more you can catch in that radius the better

[torn root]

^

and on auric you are highly likely to get 1 nade back

if there are about 30ish dudes on your screen you'd have to be very unlucky

not to get a nade back

killing 30 dudes is 150% chance just saying

[strange grove]

With the crazy toughness we get, I enjoy playing Zealeran more than Zealot

[lilac jungle]

Sorry 1 sec im testing things right now

[torn root]

this was on apack of ragers

that was without tinker

i think shredders are goated

[lilac jungle]

So the knockdown radius on ragers is almost exactly the same as far as i can tell,

WIth and without Tinker its 2m

[torn root]

pretty sure Tinker only affects the damage radius

which is the most important part

[lilac jungle]

That woudlnt surprise me

[torn root]

thye are gunna be runnign right at you anyway

[lilac jungle]

But is it the most important part? If you are tossing them at ragers and bulwards how do you miss that?

[torn root]

so just underhand toss the nade infront of you

enemies walk in too much of a predictable pattern for you to miss the CC part of the nade

[bitter turtle]

the packs are big enough that think just very naturally you are not going to cover all of them

[lilac jungle]

If you cant miss then why use the extra range of tinker? Is it not better to save those extra points to use elsewhere

[bitter turtle]

even WITH tinker tbh

they dont exactly clip into each other

here

sec

[torn root]

TINKER AGAIN is just for killing trash mobs easier

anything else is just a bonus

you can soften up elites a bit more

nice bonus but shredders arent for elites

[lilac jungle]

But its already easy to kill trash with without tinker

[torn root]

you kill less without it

[lilac jungle]

By about 100 damage maybe

[torn root]

we gunna act like thats not a boon?

[lilac jungle]

But it saves you 2 talent points not taking it

[torn root]

saves you nothing if you are building into nades to begin with

if you are building for nades, you literally have no reason to not take it

[lilac jungle]

All vet needs to do is take Grenade Regen

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/5aee3a30f4614cb6df0662a513b61ea5.jpg

2 dead rager with tinker

[torn root]

grenade regen vs tinker and demo team isnt even close doing the same thing

[lilac jungle]

You can use those extra 2 point for Demo Team and Field Improv if you are building into nades

[torn root]

not even CLOSE

[bitter turtle]

no dead rager w/o tinker

same spot

same distance

[torn root]

field improve is also outshined by tinker + demo team

[bitter turtle]

same logic applies to the bleed radius

gunners can spread out

a few extra meter will help catch ones that arent in range w/o tinker

bombers dont generally approach u either

[torn root]

not sure why field improv is even in this convo

[bitter turtle]

field improv is good but not for nades

[torn root]

you'd have to use it too selfishly to get anywhere close to as much use

[bitter turtle]

its 3/4 extra nades once

lol

might as well take twinning blast

honestly

it would help more purely in terms of nade-ing*

since it saves u a nade every time it double procs

[torn root]

like actually the moment i see someone take more than 1 charge from an ammo crate thats an instant kick

dont troll and do that shit

[lilac jungle]

If you want to kill Ragers with grenades just make sure that one of your weapons has +Maniac because im pretty sure that the grenades are affected by the weapon you had equipped when you pull out the grenade

[torn root]

bro again

shredders are fro trash mobs

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/38111595d5836cba7fca0954cfecc4c0.jpg

guess what im holding

in that screenshot

[torn root]

stop @ me about killing ragers lmao

we said that you use shredders to soften up elites while killing trash

[lilac jungle]

One of you is saying its for trash, the other for ragers.

[bitter turtle]

its for both

its for literally

everything

honestly

because its such a good nade lmao

[lilac jungle]

ALso true

[bitter turtle]

but yeah

25% maniac still leaves some alive ragers

they arent exactly super far from the explosion center

its very conceivable that ragers fan out at that range once 12 of them start charging at you

you can see tinker kills but no tinker doesn't

idk how the value of this is incomprehensible to you

even for the ones lcoser to the center they will die faster

which is helpful

[torn root]

actually do nades work with Superiortiy Complex and Bring it Down?

[bitter turtle]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3094038976

damage is increased by damage buffs from Bring it Down!, Close Quarters Killzone (if within 8m to the enemy), Competitive Urge, Covering Fire (if applied to Veteran by another Veteran), Grenade Tinkerer, Longshot (if not within 8m to the enemy), Redirect Fire! (if tagged), Skirmisher, Superiority Complex (against elites), Surprise Attack, and aura Fire Team; damage can also be affected by weapon perks and blessings if Veteran swaps to weapon before the grenade explodes

yes

[lilac jungle]

Im killing them with 20% maniac, no tinker and just tossing 2 at their feet at the same time, only 1 explosion is doing damage, the 2s just bleed and its killing ragers just fine

[bitter turtle]

strangely, longshot works...?

[torn root]

that's nasty

[bitter turtle]

not every single one is going to be hit by the explosion at your feet

[torn root]

that's actually hilarious

[lilac jungle]

I know, but them at 4 health is fine

[bitter turtle]

some ofe them will be healthier than 4 hp

you saw in my ss no?

im not saying its unforgiveable

like i said

base shredder is already great

yes

nobody is denying that

the entire argument is that you dont see value in tinker

[lilac jungle]

Because there isnt any IMO

[torn root]

this

the value is in efficiency

which tinker 100% does increase

not just efficiency, its also just quality

[bitter turtle]

like

https://i.gyazo.com/64a4312091afbc56898fdc9e0fef51ac.jpg

this is how much

enemies fan out

even when i literally

spawn them

on top of each other

and extra radius doesnt seem useful to you?

even with tinker its not going to cover all of them

nevermind base

[lilac jungle]

Because enemies dont fan out like that in a mission,

[bitter turtle]

they can in more open areas

yes you can squeeze them through a choke

that doenst always happen

and even if they are going through a choke

they are still srpead out

just in a more linear way

[torn root]

they Will IN OPEN AREAS

[lilac jungle]

There are so many choke points everywhere that they never just spereak out like that

[bitter turtle]

rather than a circular way

ok

if they're funneling through a

choke

you realize

they are still spread out

just over a line

rather than a circle right

enemies generally dont clip into each other

[torn root]

^

[lilac jungle]

Generally no, this isnt vt2

[bitter turtle]

so again, extra radius still helps greatly

plus

honestly?

half the time im throwing nades its bc im surrounded in an open area

not because im spamming melee into a choke and want more sick kill feed frags

[late hatch]

double crushers are still a pain though

[lilac jungle]

But what i am saying is the effeciency you gain from taking tinker, you lose more by spending those 2 point on it. Those 2 points could be much better spent elsewhere in your build.

[torn root]

that's just called bad luck

🙂

[bitter turtle]

this is purely based on the build in question

and what you've already taken, what melee, what ranged weapon

superiority complex

is a talent

i in fact drop

on some builds

rending strikes as well

[lilac jungle]

Tinker does things, it just doesnt do enough to be worth it.

Rending strikes sucks though

[bitter turtle]

im just saying your argument that "well sometimes you might want to drop it" is meaningless

some builds have to drop elite dmg

[torn root]

1 sec man

[bitter turtle]

on what, plasma?

[torn root]

imma just post a grenade tree real quick cans you arent really losing anything in that case

[bitter turtle]

ig if you only use plasma and volver sure

[lilac jungle]

I'm noit saying you might want to deom it from some build, im saying its not worth it in basically any build.

[bitter turtle]

i need rending strikes to hit bp for v7

so idk about "sucks"

unless u like 2 shotting flamers instead of 1

idk

ive already shown u exactly how it can make a difference in a photo

just agree to disagree then

[torn root]

other than twinned blast what would you take in place of tinker?

and in all honesty twinned blast > field improv

[lilac jungle]

Again, im not saying its doesnt make a difference, i am saying that difference isnt worth the 2 talent points.

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/e7e235dc7ad858dda7b267710a30da4f.jpg

you also say rending stirkes sucks

[lilac jungle]

What weapons are you using?

[bitter turtle]

that's rending/no rending

[torn root]

meta shit

next question lmao

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/df1322a834ac79e3ab342f0d6ca2d7f9.jpg

stats in question if you want to say its just bad rolled

[torn root]

PSwors still 2 taps

[lilac jungle]

Fair. Aurogun or Plasma gun?

[torn root]

gun doesnt matter might as well slap on plasma gun

[bitter turtle]

well

if its plasma

u have even more free points

lmao

dont need rending strikes on plasma at least

[torn root]

this

you could take focus target when using plasma gun

rid Improv and Rending for Focus and Redirect for plasma easy

also gotta talk about confirmed kill and shredder nades

its down right dirty how free the toughness is

[lilac jungle]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9b37312d-97e3-4561-a3a9-5dc5a9600de0/test-2-4

Swapped FOR THE EMPEROR for suppression, but then i read plasma, so that on me for forgetting

[bitter turtle]

suppression

please stop taking this damn node

😔

[lilac jungle]

ITs great for getting gunners to stop shooting

[bitter turtle]

you know what is also great for gunners to not shoot

them not ducking behind cover

and reapers not covering their head

[torn root]

its not bad, but usually unnecessary

[bitter turtle]

so i can kill them

[lilac jungle]

Anyways, swap tinker and rending for Recipricity and Desperado

[bitter turtle]

just as someone who largely play DMR guns it is borderline fucking trolling sometimes tbh

3 shots to kill reaper goes to 6+

[lilac jungle]

Reapers are still hard to suppress even with that node,

[torn root]

yeah lmao the mechanic means wel

[lilac jungle]

But gunners just dive for cover

[torn root]

until you realize its actually counter intuitive

[bitter turtle]

yes, so they spread out and I can't kill them easily

wonderful

i truly appreciate it

[torn root]

why have the run for cover when you can just kill them?

[bitter turtle]

if it suppressed ragers

or shotgunners

then maybe

but no

the actual things you want to suppress in teh game

it doesn't work

[lilac jungle]

Melee enemies dont get suppressed i dont think

[torn root]

to suppress an enemy is to waste ammo

[bitter turtle]

yes

that's my point

it just trolls you on enemies you dont even care about suppressing

you know what else stops gunners from shooting you

holding sprint

without trolling a dmr player on your team

[lilac jungle]

I mean if there are like 6+ gunners suppressing them can be handy

[torn root]

sprinting dodging sliding

[bitter turtle]

just saying

i have never gone

"thank god they suppressed the gunners!"

[torn root]

nope!

lmao

just now you gotta chase them to get an angle

[bitter turtle]

i have gone "fuck ing god damnit he's covering his head"

plenty of times though

[torn root]

yeah suppression is actually bad

sad to say

again its generally counter intuitive

it can mess up kills

[bitter turtle]

if enemies that generally dive you got suppressed it would be useful but they're just immune because why not

[rigid whale]

why obsess over killing an enemy that isn't posing a threat to you

[lilac jungle]

But anyways, if a vet is playing on STG or ASTG then they pretty much alredy have a grenade build if they take Regen and Demoteam

Tossing them out left right and centre

[bitter turtle]

you still have to clear them out of the way to advance

[torn root]

if you ever take demo team outside of a grenade build imma call you a troll

im sorry

get Iron Will and move on

[lilac jungle]

yikes

[torn root]

unless you are literally focused on grenades

[lilac jungle]

There are literally hundreds on elites and specials in a HISTG run, sure its only one in 20, but thats still a dozen free grenades

[torn root]

free grenades over potentially just getting more damage that is consistent

it makes sense when focused on nades

not so much when not

like see me on this one

you go superiority complex, bring it down, rending strikes and onslaught?

or deadshot and desperado?

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/2037e71bd87c6e6a31f86d5acdf135f6.png
what to drop tinker for

||guess what this build is for||

[torn root]

stabby gun?

[bitter turtle]

ye

[opal dagger]

power cycler and rampage or power cycler and brutal momentum on power sword

?

[junior needle]

Brudal is #1 for clear and it's not even close

due to first target damage spreading

[lilac jungle]

Superiority Complex is to good to pass up, Bring it down is great but a little far down the tree for some builds, No rending strikes since 10% rending does so little in most situations, Onslaught only on the autoguns, Deadshot is fun but i havent really gotten the hang of it, and Desperado is just a nice melee buff.

[junior needle]

Silly mechanic honestly

[opal dagger]

ok ty

[torn root]

so you dont take damage

got it

[lilac jungle]

I know its a joke, but I would drop Tinker and Rending for Superiority Complex.

[lilac jungle]

Well none of the nodes you mentioned were Iron Will and besides Shout, the main 2 Toughness regen nodes are at the top of the tree and also werent mentioned.

[torn root]

why woudl i name iron will when the comment was talking about what demo team was contesting

i would never assume demo team is contesting ironwill

[lilac jungle]

Well take iron will of course,

[torn root]

thats just silly

[lilac jungle]

ok, well at least we agree on that lol

[bitter turtle]

i hope you know

that does absolutely nothing

for this build

in terms of bp

[torn root]

you said taking demo was okay, and i said not unless its a nade focused build

taking demo team on a regular build means you are contesting so many other possible nodes for damage

[lilac jungle]

Fair, but i dont know what weapons/perks

[torn root]

and possibly keystones

[bitter turtle]

also

not really a joke

im playing it rn in auric

lol

[lilac jungle]

Ahh, i thought you made that build as a joke at my expesnse, not that the build is a joke.

Anything can work in auric, just like in VT2 anything can work in Cataclysm.

[torn root]

not to say this is a no shit answer but.....

you can clear auric with greys yes

[bitter turtle]

mk2 helbore bayonet

not even using it as a meme

[shadow aurora]

If you enjoy pain you sure could

[bitter turtle]

i play it semi regularly in auric lol

[torn root]

some people are built different

not me

but there are some heretics out there

[shadow aurora]

Slaanesh cultists ew

[torn root]

yo chill

I could be down with a slaaneshi daemonette ngl

[shadow aurora]

[dire olive]

This is how you know their opinions on talents should be ignored

Take demo team and start throwing people

[bitter turtle]

just wondering

what guns do you play

for you to rate rending strikes so low

maybe bc i dont play volver and plasma but most of my guns need rending strikes to hit bps

HHs have awful maniac modifiers

[torn root]

i think the only gun that deosnt really benefit from rending is Plasma

and the guns that benefits the most is IAG

[bitter turtle]

recon*

[lilac jungle]

Plasma and Auto guns mostly, i use Onslaught with Autoguns

[bitter turtle]

not that it makes it any better

[rigid whale]

is iron will really that good?

[torn root]

i said guns

not toys

[lilac jungle]

Britle is the same as sending, but everyone gets it

[dire olive]

Recon benefits most from sitting untouched in the inventory

[bitter turtle]

brittle is worse

because you have to build it individually

on each target

rending is a self buff

[lilac jungle]

So its either 10% rending for myself, or 40% rending for everyone

[torn root]

if you use Auto guns and rate rending so low

thats sad

[bitter turtle]

js

[torn root]

you really don't know how much better autos are with rending

[bitter turtle]

if onslaught was 40% rending

it would be busted

since u can stack it up and then gun everything down

[lilac jungle]

Well yes

[torn root]

rending + onslaught is what makes IAGs so broken

[bitter turtle]

i dont think "benefitting everyone" is really much of a benefit since most things die before that matters

maybe on monstros

that's about it

[lilac jungle]

And crushers

[bitter turtle]

u do like 2k dps to a crusher with onslaught rending

its less than 2 second sto drop one

[torn root]

^

[bitter turtle]

i dont think its very meaningful

in terms of

"other people chipping in"

i mean

[torn root]

onslaight vs onslaught + rending is like almost a 2 second ttk difference

that's the ttk I had before sustained fire 4

you cant do that without rending

[bitter turtle]

well, i dont think its 2 seconds more

iirc i lost about 300? 400? dps without rending strikes

[torn root]

almost

[lilac jungle]

Take off deadshot and whats the differnce?

[bitter turtle]

its not a huge deal if you just don't care about crushers that much

[bitter turtle]

i know some people dont even run onslaught on their iag

[torn root]

rending legit shaves off a little over a second

[lilac jungle]

What difficulty is that?

[torn root]

and when you count that crushers can come in droves it matters

[bitter turtle]

nice job

[torn root]

true but rending imo only really matters for them, though it does affect ttk on maulers and armour ragers too in a meaningful way

a 2 second kill on a crusher is still nutty for IAG

[bitter turtle]

well

testing it rn

since i was curious

[gray finch]

i try the knife with precognition

literally feel inconsistence

[bitter turtle]

if you like consistency

or comfiness

i will suggest mercy killer over it

i still dont suggest lacerate

my personal fondness for precog is just that you literally do in fact 2shot crushers with precog knives

but it is harder to use

mercy killer with serrated blades is really easy to use but you wont get the 2shot

better boss dps than precog though i imaigne

unless you're super super on point with precog

[lilac jungle]

I do agree that rending is most useful on the IAG's but, like Tinker, i dont think its worth the point, especially if you are using deadshot

[bitter turtle]

on some builds, its not worth. I don't take it on every build

ironically since you say you play plasma, im confused actually

since plasma is a build that i'd take it on

a lot of the nodes are just kinda useless for it

it needs so little to do well in the first place

the person that takes tinker all the time on this channel actually is on plasma too

[torn root]

IAGs get mroe than a 10% boost per bullet

ppl have done the math

[bitter turtle]

it depends on the target

i checked

[torn root]

yes

[bitter turtle]

predictably, rending does... almost nothing shooting maniac

[torn root]

but specifcally rending affect carapace the most

then unyielding and flak

[bitter turtle]

flak gains about 60 damage? 70 damage per bullet going to about 360 per shot instead of 290 on a weakpoint

[torn root]

for IAG

[gray finch]

we will see about that

[bitter turtle]

so yeah its a fairly significant boost

[bitter turtle]

ye

[junior needle]

"Can do something" and "is good" are quite different concepts

[bitter turtle]

dont forget to take serrated blades

[junior needle]

There's some objectively bad weapons

[bitter turtle]

riposte is also a choice

which I like

but yeah

[torn root]

i mean that's a huge damage bumps per bullet on IAG no?

[lilac jungle]

Exactly

[bitter turtle]

yes im not disagreeing with you

just wanted the numbers

its obviously a big difference on carapace but that's only 1 enemy

so one could argue its not as meaningful if you have other ways to dealw ith them

[lilac jungle]

88 to 98 on a gunner if i use rending

[torn root]

check it on unyielding too

flak, carapace and unyielding i think are the only targets where rending really affects ttk

[bitter turtle]

er mb, its more like a 40-50 dmg not a 50-60 dmg increase

i rounded badly

[junior needle]

CIAG's have big positive multipliers to maniac, but you can easily go below that for unyielding (which is big at the start but falls off fast) due to the extremely wide falloff range and flak also starts off negative and drops pretty fast.

[bitter turtle]

so like

[lilac jungle]

Rending saves 1 bullet vs a gunner

[bitter turtle]

yeah, i figured it'd do nothing to maniac

they already shred the fuck out of them so id be surprised if it wasnt already 100% modifier

[torn root]

also yeah rending works on fall off too

[junior needle]

It's actually unusual in that the other iag's do not have this extreme differential

[torn root]

which is another thing ppl dont mention much

[junior needle]

It's like 140~ for maniacs

probably more

at close

[bitter turtle]

yeah

[rigid whale]

crazy to me that vet can have a ranged crit build at the cost of 1 talent

[bitter turtle]

i was testing at close range

so any falloff only works in favor of running the 10% node

[torn root]

1 talent is the start

it does kind of need investment

[junior needle]

You only get to below 100% maniac at like 45m last I checked on the ciag

[bitter turtle]

er

i should add i was testing giag too

ciag goes from 270 to 300 for close range against flak

a bit smaller but still about 10% increase even in the worst case

on a headshot against a flak rager*

[torn root]

its more than 10%

[bitter turtle]

slightly yeah

i just rounded

lul

[torn root]

yeah the math in this game is dumb af

[junior needle]

ciag starts at about 92% ish

iirc

But drops harder

other iag's start at like 72

for flak

[bitter turtle]

makes sense

the gain was bigger on giag

[rigid whale]

that's crazy

[bitter turtle]

at close range

[lilac jungle]

So far 10% rending has saved Me 1 bullet vs everying but crushers

Thats not exactly a huge savings

[torn root]

its only effective on enemies resistant to your gun damage type

[bitter turtle]

im gonan blow your mind

right now

guess how many bullets

superiority complex saves me

on a rager

1 as well

[torn root]

lmao

yup

[bitter turtle]

just tried it

[torn root]

the 15% from complex

is about the same as rending on IAGs

[bitter turtle]

no crits ofc

just headshots

6 bullets with superiority

7 without

same as 10% rending at close range vs flak rager actually

[torn root]

monstrosities exist still too

which rending helps a good amount

[junior needle]

Depends on the range

[bitter turtle]

yeah

like maniac, very little difference at close range for rending

lemme check longer

[junior needle]

You go from like 140+ to like 48 or something on unyielding for ciag

[torn root]

then again what damage doesnt depend on the range?

for guns*

[junior needle]

So you either get very little or a lot of value

[torn root]

48 more damage per bullet is still gunna bump dps a good chunk

[junior needle]

is that with over 100% modifier?

[torn root]

so the one im using right now

[bitter turtle]

yeah i get something like a 15%~ increase at longer ranges for unyielding

[junior needle]

Yep, was on the money

[torn root]

15% yeah

rending is great on unyielding

thats reapers, and monsters

on top of bring it down

[bitter turtle]

pretty sure other guns see a big increase too

i cant imagine something like laspistols dont see a big benefit on maniac

[torn root]

i think yeah

[bitter turtle]

since idk fatshark things crazy ppl are immune to lazer

[torn root]

but consistently IAG get more than the 10% the node says

[bitter turtle]

ye

laspistol goes from 250 to 290 for me

on maniac

[torn root]

either way was just noting that rating rending so low for IAG was weird

[bitter turtle]

like i said before, i feel like thats a pov you have if all you play is volver and plasma

[junior needle]

Mostly on flak because they start at like 72

[bitter turtle]

since they have insanely good modifiers or handcannon to shit out rending

[torn root]

well

the dude says he was using an IAG

so its weird

idk what to say man

[bitter turtle]

as I showed before, I quite literally need the 10% rending node or i cant bp flamers on v7

feels bad since the monstro/ogryn node isnt particularly... great on v7 so i kinda just go there just for rending lul

[untold mulch]

Insanity gives you inmunity to laser beams

[torn root]

well im not talking about you sorry if that was misunderstood

[bitter turtle]

ya no i get you

[junior needle]

Yeah the HH's didn't have particularly good modifiers last I checked

[bitter turtle]

was just saying

[torn root]

also pretty sure if you stacked IAG it could kill a crusher in just 1 second maybe less

lmao

braindead is the only word you could use to explain what the gun is

[bitter turtle]

stacked as in multiple? yea probably

if you mean like stacked all the modifiers on a solo one

i dont think so?

[torn root]

no i mean like deathspitter

[bitter turtle]

at least for me, the best i get evven with deadshot is 3k

[torn root]

etc.

[bitter turtle]

oh

maybe with deathspitter already stacked yeah

[torn root]

im using sustained fire so its not as fast as it could be

[junior needle]

I suppose sustained gives you more ammo efficiency

[bitter turtle]

best i got is 3.2k

with fire frenzy stacked

but my stopping power is a bit on the low side

[torn root]

my average dps on crushers with deadshot is 2400

[junior needle]

Although it kinda goes against the bullet hose thing ciag has going for it

[bitter turtle]

so maybe

[torn root]

dont even think ive hit 3k once

i lied

just hit 3.3k lmao

[bitter turtle]

well

im using a maxed focus target

so

lol

maybe its not the most honest

[torn root]

that was without focus target

[bitter turtle]

i just wanted to see if u can hit 3.6k for real

for 1 second ttk

and damn

must be my shit stopping power

LOL

[torn root]

yeah

stopping power is needed

i dumped ammo on mine

dont need ammo anyway

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/107ab1e888a06e5c04e949f01dce2cf2.jpg

too lazy to make a bette rone

stopped using ciag anyway

[torn root]

wanted to actually play the game aye?

[bitter turtle]

nah i mean

stuff like that doesnt bother me that much

albiet i really dislike plasma and zarona volver

playing them i mean

but even when i play iag i prefer giag stability

https://i.gyazo.com/92f61c106111703a47f84c8b98163f56.png

so i just use this instead

well, nowadays i use v3 if i want that gameplay tbh

[torn root]

that's fair

i think any of the iag are good

just that when i got on vet

Columnus was just so much different than on zealot

[dusty sluice]

oooooo

worth grabbing?

[crude ermine]

It COULD work

But the experience needs to go

And Rox flamers are pretty useless as a res so swap that out with gunner and exp toughness

[bitter turtle]

combat ability regen isnt the best thing ever

but

its not useless

so yeah

just swap the other two out

[torn root]

yeah 4% combat regen depending on you ability is not the best

1.2 seconds for Voc

[dusty sluice]

oh i thoght it was 4 secs

[bitter turtle]

think its probably the best on infiltrate with overwatch

oh man

if it was 4 seconds per curio

if only

[torn root]

3.6 SECONDS total if you have 3 stacked together [12%]

[dusty sluice]

i run +thness +sprint efc and gunner res for tgness curios mostly

[gray finch]

i call it worth

[bitter turtle]

its ok, not the worst, but something like stamina regen is usually more helpful

but lik ei said, overwatch infil might be the best user of it

since its rarely "wasted" thanks to the extra charge

unlike if u refresh with less than 6 seconds left on voc from a special kill

then you may as well not have had the curio perk

[torn root]

3.6 seconds automatically overshadowed on auric when it wont actively give a faster CD in some cases because you are getting enough tactical awareness procs

even on regular damantion actually

[dusty sluice]

i have 12k melk money so its not anything wasted to grab it

[bitter turtle]

ya

i mean i'd grab it

[torn root]

12% total ability CD is decent for the other 2 abilities tho

[bitter turtle]

its not bad

you never know when ability cooldown might become meta or something idk

tree changes and whatnot

maybe they give voc a 2nd charge

then it would be a lot better

lul