veteran-class

[frank basin]

Anyone wanna go eat McOgryn?

[torn root]

vet and zealot have 5%

psyker 7.5

ogryn 2.5

[junior needle]

Yee

[torn root]

the weapon thing as of current game is not a thing as far as i know

[junior needle]

Vet previously had higher innate crit but it got nerfed

[torn root]

havent seen any mined data on that

and from reading the link that info seems wonky

[radiant chasm]

i'd suggest swapping to the other revolver if you dont want to use surgical, mk2 loves surgical

[junior needle]

The guide is up to date, it's been there since near launch

[torn root]

expecially looking at the top of the list

Tactical Axe: 0 -> 15% (12% at the 80% stat cap)

this still makes no sense

15%

12% at max of 80% stat

where is the 3% from?

[junior needle]

100% stats

[radiant chasm]

81-100%

[junior needle]

15 is the max

[radiant chasm]

which you can't reach

[torn root]

and this is tied to the damage stat?

[junior needle]

Tac axes have a crit stat

[next spade]

should I buy this?
dont ever get any plasma in the shop

[torn root]

okay so now

where does the -2% on auto guns come from?

[junior needle]

It's the automatic gun tax, the price for having crit strings is less crit. Some weapons natively have more or less without a crit stat.

[terse idol]

Yeah you should it's a good base

[next spade]

which are the optimal blessings for plasma?

[terse idol]

Replace SI with blaze it, unyielding with unarmoured

Blaze it, gets hot

[next spade]

shattering impact worth it? dosnt plasma already have like full armor pen?

[junior needle]

Smudge answered you there

Generally no, not really

[terse idol]

Yuhh, you just want gets hot and blaze it

[next spade]

ah ok

[junior needle]

Oh this is interesting, according to this recon lasguns don't have negative crit anymore

[torn root]

.>

[junior needle]

They used to, it was at -2% like the others

Or maybe it's a typo

[torn root]

I will take the link with a grain of salt

[junior needle]

That link is very legit

It was getting posted near release

That is datamined stuff

Just think, you would've never known about any of this because fatshark doesn't tell you anything

[torn root]

yeah but most of the community data seems to not be from this post

[ocean viper]

vermintide players: first time?

[torn root]

looking at it it just gets updated by ppl commenting on it

and author updating it

last date looking like Dec. 10 2023

might not be the exact data but an attempt to collect it in one spot isn't a bad thing

i will still say its weird to see some of the mined line text like [stat_buffs.reload_speed] = 0.15,
[stat_buffs.charge_up_time] = 0.25,
[stat_buffs.stamina_cost_multiplier] = 0.75,
[stat_buffs.sprinting_cost_multiplier] = 0.5,
[stat_buffs.attack_speed] = 0.2,
[stat_buffs.chain_lightning_jump_time_multiplier] = 0.75,
[stat_buffs.psyker_throwing_knife_speed_modifier] = 0.25,
[stat_buffs.smite_attack_speed] = 0.25,
[stat_buffs.vent_warp_charge_multiplier] = 1.25

that immediatley shows you what's actually in the game

if stuff like that were to be shared more frequently you'd have 100% up time on knowing, which isnt impossible

but i don't think the author is the one mining, just posting discoveries

[tall torrent]

can u link the post

[inland orchid]

#veteran-class message

i think its this one

[torn root]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2892198053

was that one

[tall torrent]

Thx

Wait veteran base stamina regen delay is 1.25s?

I thought they reduced it before?

[torn root]

its 1 second

lmao

[tall torrent]

Wasn’t it reduced from 1.25 to 1

[torn root]

yeah

thats why i was disputing the accuracy

its a guy collecting info but maybe not up to speed

[tiny summit]

ok Im done with this ass build'

[umbral scaffold]

melk got brutal momentum and shred 4 aswell on axes so i can yoink those blessings

byy the throne melk has a lot of t4 blessings that are good

[shadow aurora]

What is that thing

[tall torrent]

U can take this just for onslaught 4

[fiery plinth]

A scope?

[umbral scaffold]

wym? its the thingamajig

[tall torrent]

No respite is funny but not the best

[shadow aurora]

The doodad?

[umbral scaffold]

its the doohickey

[shadow aurora]

I want a gizmo

[fiery plinth]

I’ve never seen a scope admittedly

[torn root]

it's a mod

[umbral scaffold]

look at those jucy blessings

[cunning holly]

Ahoi. We starting our run. You still sure you want to try out your crisis management and stress resiliance in MAuric?

[umbral scaffold]

id say for the thingamajig i yoink onslaught blessing

idk just in case i switch to hellbore

[torn root]

imagine if blessings and perks actually changed how your weapons looked

similar to Boarderlands parts

🙂

[umbral scaffold]

[shadow aurora]

Thatd be rad

Infurnus adds a bic lighter to the end of the barrel

[sharp ember]

tech heresy

you will use your weapons GREY

[limber egret]

must be the heaviest revolver ever

[umbral scaffold]

the BIG iron

[shadow aurora]

Biggest iron

https://tenor.com/view/joker-batman-big-gun-gun-jack-nicholson-gif-13724041

[junior needle]

Fair, I remember seeing all this hidden info near release so I assumed the guy was datamining it. He could've just been sourcing it from people more in the know. He does seem to test things himself at the very least, but it's a lot of information and it can be hard to keep track of changes.

[severe adder]

whats the best overall chain type melee for vetera

[shadow aurora]

The cadia chain swords are great all rounders

I think the old one has better horde clear

[severe adder]

whats the advancage and disadvnacge of the chain axes

[shadow aurora]

They dont have the best horde clear

[junior needle]

More damage on the special, worse clear compared to chainswords

Also different moveset

Which can be good or bad from your perspective

[paper furnace]

for vet i'd try mk 12 chainaxe, lights for hoards and full thrust heavies for thick boys.

its a much slower weapon that most would recommend for vets, but they feel good.

[drifting oak]

the OG chainaxe is absurdly good, it's one of vet's few weapons with brittleness on hit?

[swift ingot]

Not mine but it still goes hard af

[drifting oak]

so you can light attack crushers to death with it while still dodging everything they throw

[junior needle]

You need a blessing for it. Also your lights stick and if you dodge they unstick and dont do their damage right

[serene bough]

eeeviiiiillllll

[timid sierra]

Wow! That looks sick af! Especially the head piece

And the Boltgun!!

[sleek garden]

that looks hideous its incredible

[jaunty tinsel]

wtf Scion cosmetic?

when???

[swift ingot]

Dunno

[junior needle]

Not released yet

[jaunty tinsel]

would pay for that (yes this is addressed to the Fatshark marketing team that watches these channels)

[timid sierra]

What do you guys think about the Boltgun? I've been avoiding it because I kept reading on reddit it's bad until I saw this guy's video (I think he was here earlier helping people with mods)
https://youtu.be/sMOEBAfnkjo?si=krqvTQN2lI9IdXIn
Why people in the comments say Boltgun is trash? It looks surprisingly robust to me

[shut flax]

I'm assuming because revolver and plasma exist

[trim steppe]

Its good its just not OP. It also has a niche in killing monsters really fast

[cloud leaf]

its slow ass fuck

by the time u pull it out the revolver or plasma wouldve killed it already

[swift ingot]

It’s still perfectly usable

[serene sage]

the commenters have severe skill issues

that's all

[umbral scaffold]

tfw a dog just fucking glues ontoyou after you dodge

i guess pov it is

[swift ingot]

I always push just in case the dodge doesn’t work

[cloud leaf]

never dodge dogs

[swift ingot]

Yeah

Pushing is much more reliable

[serene sage]

that build is generally okay though, would take survivalist over fire team but it's fine regardless

assuming team can share ammp

[umbral scaffold]

but i have 0 stam always since i have the keystone

[junior needle]

The key is to flail your melee weapon wildly while dodging, it's works most of the time 100% of the time

[umbral scaffold]

inc

[slate sleet]

mhm

yep

twinned blast yep

[timid sierra]

I think it's on par with the plasma they just differ on a couple of points. One is bursty the other does better at single target longer ranges.
Revolver I think is a bit overturned for being a pistol 😅

[slate sleet]

demo team yep thats a good one too yep

[junior needle]

Boltgun is functional as a weapon, there's just better options that also don't have jank

[shut flax]

Revolver's damage is fine, it's the penetration that really sells it

[atomic zephyr]

if revolver didnt have hand cannon no one would care about it

[slate sleet]

ah target down without born leader or inspiring presense

yep

[junior needle]

Not taking born leader was actually smart though

Bad talent

[timid sierra]

I remember watching a video of an ogryn going helicopter mode with his melee weapon when he got surrounded by a horde 😂😂

[junior needle]

It's called the meatspin, very effective maneuver

[umbral scaffold]

whats all the hype about the mk v infantry autogun

[shut flax]

It's funny

[umbral scaffold]

i prefer bolter or short blue lasgun

guys what if we got 4 veterans with bolters in one strike team

[shut flax]

The columnus needs a fair bit of love to make work

[junior needle]

I dunno, it's a mystery

[timid sierra]

Maybe all Boltgun needs is a generous bump up to its cleave damage on bullet impact.
That would actually be awesome and make it kind of a signature weapon

[shut flax]

But when it works, it works

Also dum dum is nuts

[slate sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/russell-westbrook-nba-okc-thunder-what-huh-gif-5070054

[junior needle]

It only has like 3600~ maniac headshot dps gray and talentless, really needs that boost from the talent tree to reach 4000

[atomic zephyr]

lmao what thing is a laser

[umbral scaffold]

ok fuck lasguns im getting that

also wtf does cleave do?

[severe adder]

build? pls

[junior needle]

You can see it in the video, no build. No talents, no perks that do anything, no blessings. RAW.

[torn root]

yo?!

[serene sage]

also Reddit generally has really bad balance opinions, I wouldn't listen to them

[slate sleet]

i think he wants you to spoonfeed him a build to make it better

[torn root]

too bad perk ass

[junior needle]

Just grab uh, onslaught and rending strikes and VOC.

[slate sleet]

you say that as if the opinions in here are any better

[junior needle]

and survivalist

[serene sage]

wdym
we are much better lmao

[umbral scaffold]

what does cleave do

[serene sage]

people here are bogged down to the nitty gritty

[slate sleet]

its penetration

[serene sage]

not the general idea

[junior needle]

Your ability to hit multiple targets

[severe adder]

is the gria mkviii decent compared to the columnis v iag?

[torn root]

ngl

[timid sierra]

I was gonna say exactly that lol. You literally don't need anything else with Columnus IAG 😂

[torn root]

ppls opinions are just that

[slate sleet]

graia is a middle road iag

[torn root]

good or bad doesn;t matter

lmao

[serene sage]

the fuck, of course it does

[wraith locust]

have you seen gray columnus deleting stuff

it needs 0 love

[torn root]

but it doesnt

[junior needle]

Notably less overtuned dps wise, more controllable.

[torn root]

because even that in essence is an opinion

[drifting oak]

you have to build for it is all

but the columnus base gun is fine

[serene sage]

if you're giving advice, you should at least more or less know what's going on

you can't hide behind "opinions"

[wraith locust]

you dont tho lol, grey columnus, 0 talents still shreds

[junior needle]

What if my opinions are objectively correct

[serene sage]

well in my opinion, you should drink poison to cure COVID

[torn root]

true but its not like ppl on reddit are inherently more or less informed tbh

[slate sleet]

that would invalidate like 90% of people opening their piehole in here

[serene sage]

I should broacast it right?

[drifting oak]

eh, I think it's pretty anemic without 30% weakpoint but that's a very easy node to grab

[slate sleet]

uhh works for me bro

[serene sage]

because it's just an opnion and it doesn't matter

[severe adder]

hm alr thanks. what would be objectively the best automatic

[serene sage]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torn root]

niso typing the message they did isn't really right or wrong imo

[slate sleet]

opening salvo on mk12 is good bro its so strong

(changes literally nothing about the weapon)

[torn root]

there are ppl typing dumb shit here

and on reddit

[junior needle]

Objectively the highest dps automatic is the ciag, but "best" depends on your preferences.

[serene sage]

nah still, we don't say dumbshit like Bolter needs 2x damage or else it's literally unplayable

[torn root]

and some people typing opinions as if they could never be wrong

[drifting oak]

IAGs suck if you can't land full auto headshots at midrange

[loud steppe]

i am not sure what to do with this

[drifting oak]

like their bodyshot damage is really weak

[wraith locust]

whattt

[drifting oak]

1/4 lasgun, it's bricked

[torn root]

yeah instead we complain about shit being broken and nerfs should be done instead of buffing things

[loud steppe]

damn. what am i aiming for then

[terse idol]

Uhhh

[fast cargo]

I'd disagree

[loud steppe]

headhunter?

[serene sage]

people ask for plasma and revolver nerfs here which is kinda deserved lmao

that's like the correct opinion, I haven't seen anyone else saying otherwise

[fast cargo]

Opening Salvo's good and Flak's great for breakpoints

[junior needle]

For a salvage you could replace specialists with maniac and salvo with HH. Go max crit fishing with deadshot/dnd.

[drifting oak]

flak+unarmored or maniac
Only infantry lasgun blessing combo that matters is headhunter + deadly accurate, makes killing bulwarks/reapers consistnetly take 1-2 less shots

[fast cargo]

Ghost is take or leave, but I can see it working

[terse idol]

Ghost's alright

[torn root]

nerfs are deserved before competitive buffs are put into place --- not generally an ideal i agree with

[slate sleet]

flak literally does nothing

[fast cargo]

Imperfect, but entirely usable

[junior needle]

2000~ dps just isn't enough

[terse idol]

especially if you're building for marksmens focus

[slate sleet]

you cannot 1 shot anything with armor on a lasgun

[junior needle]

It's need 3000 bodyshot dps at least, gray

[serene sage]

WE ALREADY HAVE BUFFS LMAO

[loud steppe]

ok sounds like headhunter + deadly accurate with crit build

[serene sage]

DID YOU READ THE PATCH NOTES?

[fast cargo]

Dude, Flak's the only way to get past the breakpoint for Flak enemies on Damnation without using skill

[terse idol]

It helps against Scab gunners, and Maulers

[loud steppe]

flak + unarmoured

[junior needle]

There's new patch notes?

[serene sage]

every single guns (except recon) was buffed

[serene sage]

no the old one

[slate sleet]

oh does it now

[junior needle]

[timid sierra]

I'm OK with plasma revolver and CIAG staying as-is, as long as they make boltgun bullets more.. explosive on impact! 😁

[drifting oak]

me, casually one-headshotting scab gunners

[serene sage]

they just buff plasma and rev too much, so tone it down

[torn root]

all the buffs were just on the money then i guess

no buffs need to be pushed not even a little bit?

[fast cargo]

Did testing with mine before and after adding it, before it's about two damage short of a 1-tap on flak hordes, after it kills

[drifting oak]

flak breakpoint I'm pretty sure also helps for when you get limb hits? and i think it matters for scab melee

[torn root]

could argue power creep but that also comes due to nerfs as well

[serene sage]

no, because plasma gun on a decent player hand is nearly unbeatable

[fast cargo]

Drops you down on hits for ragers too, it is useful

[drifting oak]

the "buffs" were warranted because they also generally increased enemy HP values

across the board

[umbral scaffold]

i love it when the mournistar loads and my yt video instantly turnss into 144p 10 fps

[terse idol]

well by decreasing enemy spawn

[fast cargo]

I'm trying to build into the crit combo plus flak and either crit chance or weakspot damage

[terse idol]

Even if it doesn't feel like it

[serene sage]

you and me, we play a few rounds, let's see how much you enjoy running after me one tappig everything with the plasma
I would guarantee I outdmage/outkilling you if you don't use the OP trio

[torn root]

im not speaking out against them not sure what that reply was towards

[drifting oak]

I thought the patchnotes were that they generally decreased the enemy # "per spawn", like in a single gunner squad or a single crusher squad
But the thing is the "# of spawns" is still very high

[fast cargo]

Plas is still probably the go-to for any middle tree build tho

Most result for least investment

[terse idol]

yeah

[junior needle]

Fatshark is quite fond of undocumented changes

There seems to have been an uptick in spawns recently that wasn't noted anywhere

[drifting oak]

yeah

[junior needle]

They've done major changes without saying a word many times

[drifting oak]

getting double ended by a poxwalker spawn that also came with a full gunner squad coming out of a door for some reason

pain

[fast cargo]

Spawning in weird places too, I've cleared a direction, turned around, and immediately gotten meleed by a pox that just spawned

[serene bough]

more spawns more headshots

gimme gimme gimme

[fast cargo]

From said cleared direction, if it isn't clear

[drifting oak]

that sounds like "spaghetti" remnants of a horde just dooring to get to you

[fast cargo]

Fun.

[drifting oak]

there's a lot of door stragglers these days

[timid sierra]

What's your typical plasma build? Do you go for focus target, weapon specialist or a no keystone build?

[drifting oak]

like the poxwalkers on the tail end of a horde get confused, route away from the main wave to instead take a stupid door-utilizing route to get to you

and they arrive super late after the horde is already 'done"

happens a lot if you push during the horde

[terse idol]

well it's certainly any stragglers that got staggered but not killed

[junior needle]

Unsheathes kickback

Nuthin persunnal, Sah.

[drifting oak]

kickback is an unparalleled horde clearing machine lol if the terrain is right

[junior needle]

You don't use it for horde clearing

[drifting oak]

how many poxwalkers can a kickback pellet penetrate, even?

[junior needle]

4 baseline

2 bruisers

[drifting oak]

only 4? feels like a lot more

but I guess that just boils down to how hordes are arranged

[junior needle]

you'd need a power increase, but you can hit more than that with pellets because it's a shotgun

[severe adder]

on an iag like the columnus what are the imporntant stats to roll?

[umbral scaffold]

rate the fit

i got the pants on accident lmao

[desert hawk]

I wish vet had something else besides the box boots

[junior needle]

Damage/stopping power/stability, then ammo. Mobility is a safe dumpstat for ranged weapons.

[severe adder]

ok thanks

[serene sage]

truly

[junior needle]

The weapon is overtuned as fuck so even a poor roll will outperform other weapons

[serene sage]

i kinda build whatever tbh, but i think tag with voice is easiest to use

[umbral scaffold]

anyone wanna play

[torn root]

i would bring the fact that there is going to be a loadout that outdamages the rest in all cases

that's not an argument for nerf

because that's just an endless thing then

[serene sage]

then we just need to talk about the scale of it

currenly plasma takes next to no effort to play

[torn root]

but that's not what yall are doing

like ever

when talking about the plasma

[slate sleet]

care you share your magical build that lets you 1 shot scab gunners without external buffs baseline?

[serene sage]

wdym, we know the plasma and the other 2 guns are OP because it outclasses everything else

[drifting oak]

sec

[torn root]

to what scale, what aspect

[serene sage]

like compare plasma to helbore, bolter and be like yeah balanced

[serene sage]

easy to play
damage

[torn root]

you just say its better no one really uses or cares for numbers

[slate sleet]

flak armor doing alot of work

[serene sage]

it's low effort high reward

[torn root]

ive noticed that heavy in this disc

[drifting oak]

You might not have lasgun's full reverse falloff at that distance

also the full effect of the 20% increased damage by range node

[slate sleet]

thats the normal distance you fight stuff at

[serene sage]

well we can get numbers, we can both play games, no trolling and compare how much more we do with each weapon

[drifting oak]

eh, you fight gunners plenty at slightly longer ranges and that's all you need

[serene sage]

like how would you know recon is worse?

by playing

[drifting oak]

I have the 15% damage-when-nothing-close node but as you can see it's not on

[slate sleet]

ok so at that point flak damage will do absolutely nothing

you will 1 shot the gunner anyway

so why get it

[torn root]

which load outs would we be using? what team compositions as well

[serene sage]

I have played some amount of plasma to now that I do a lot more damage iwth it with a lot less efforts

[shut flax]

Eh, fair. If I mis-build around it I REALLY feel it, so I'm also biased a bit.

[drifting oak]

no, without flak you will 100% not get the headshot

[junior grail]

Recently using Mk7a Recon, not as bad as I remember

[torn root]

those all fall in line as to how to get data

[torn root]

i can sit here and have a serious convo about how ppl even try to collect data in the first place

[serene sage]

just use whatever you want, I would go a meta VoC ping build with the plasma

[torn root]

because its weird in this community

[drifting oak]

let me find a bricked lasgun

[serene sage]

like stock standard, not some weird glass canon build

[torn root]

.>

[serene sage]

I think I would outdamage people regardless with the plasma

[torn root]

that sets a gauge limit

[drifting oak]

damage with a mg12 lasgun missing 25% flak

[serene sage]

that's how OP it is

[drifting oak]

you need it

[junior grail]

Yall think Plasma may get a nerf of any kind?

My bet is toning down the cleave a bit

[cold field]

Guys I need some theorycrafting expert help

[torn root]

honestly its balanced some people dont like it

[serene sage]

okay, in your opinion, what would it take to nerf plasma?

[torn root]

make it go back to eating health then

simple

[serene bough]

most likely

[slate sleet]

just tested it with and without flak armor

it makes no difference

whatsoever

[drifting oak]

• 25% flak on weapon
• Longshot (up to 20% damage at range) + native lasgun reverse falloff, some amount needs to apply
• 30% weakspot damage
• 15% elite damage
• 10% rending

[slate sleet]

at long range

[serene bough]

im hoping they push the plasma towards landing heavy charged shots more than just m1 spamming

[drifting oak]

hmmm let me pull to long range and take off Kill Zone

If you have killzone upyou might not need 25% flak

[serene bough]

mg4 infantry las superiority

[torn root]

plasma was still performing well when it was eating health, we now get to complain that it's actually broken because venting is basically free now

so revert it

[torn root]

force ppl to sit thru that reload

[drifting oak]

killzone, no flak

still need flak

[junior needle]

Hasn't had any specific changes recently, although it was affected by the line wide nerfs. Probably placebo unless you changed your setup.

[junior grail]

Imo just give recons more ammo, then I'm happy

[frail bolt]

how would i build this?

[junior needle]

Needs a bit more than more ammo

[terse idol]

Also wait, I did a small bit of testing yesterday, long shot and the other talent that increases damage when enemies are outside of 8m

Those don't stack do they?

[junior needle]

They should

[drifting oak]

i was pretty sure they did

[terse idol]

Because I swear I tried both didn't get 30% increased damage

[torn root]

they do

[terse idol]

Hmmmmm

Gonna check again latah

[junior needle]

They make not stack additively

[junior grail]

Oooh Surgical 4, might extract that

[shut flax]

Just ran a very unfortunate pubs. A knife vet died immediately, and another vet got two of us killed by shooting a burster

[frail bolt]

kk

[shut flax]

It happens, but dang.

[torn root]

at 29 meters with nothing in range you should have max value from the combo

[frail bolt]

i'll try to find another hb2

[cold field]

Here is an issue I havent tested by is a theory:

I was looking through game files and noticed that the blessings for the guns "hit and run", "Ghost" and "Stripped Down" have stipulations for gaining ranged immunity. Something I think could work is an infinite sprint+ranged immunity Veteran build but i dont know how to test it... the theory goes like this, Get any gun that can get "Stripped Down" blessing and then get Duck and Dive talent in the vet tree... and you should be constantly generating stamina while sprinting and also dodging ranged infinitely....

[drifting oak]

but yeah being able to one-head scab gunners is a pretty neat feeling

[terse idol]

Oh wait, maybe I was near a mob in the psykanarium

[junior grail]

Sounds like every normal pub

[drifting oak]

but you have to stack nearly everything

[slate sleet]

this gun is such garbage

you have to use a pure sniper build to even 1 shot normal elites

[drifting oak]

it's the one big thing mg12 has over mg1a but it's very noticeable in my experience

[slate sleet]

there is literally no reason to use the lasguns over vraks 7

[terse idol]

I mean you can 2 shot em which isnt bad
And if you're running a lasgun you're probably gonna be running marksmens focus

[drifting oak]

since scab gunners will flinch heavily from a headshot making actualy putting them down much harder

[terse idol]

Bp on scab gunners is pretty good

[junior needle]

No respite/surgical is actually fine on the mk2 because of surgical. I'd take +unarmored and another damage perk. Both of those perks are scuffed.

[shut flax]

Are any of the headhunter autoguns any good?

[drifting oak]

vraks 7 has a lot less ammunition and does much worse with bodyshots

[serene bough]

i think the infantry las are in good spots

[junior needle]

Then you're infinitely doing nothing, but only while being shot at

[slate sleet]

yeah i think every auric mission needs a exec stance marksman to drag ass and be a liability

[drifting oak]

which is relevant because infantry las are amazing at killing specials/maniacs

just by spraying them

[serene bough]

i dont use exe stance with las

[drifting oak]

which is relevant when you just had a shocktrooper wave, the whole thing, pop out of a door next to you

[serene bough]

i dont think anyone runs exe stance anyways

[drifting oak]

and suddenly there's 2 trappers and 4 flamers and 3 bombers and also 2 muties

[shut flax]

Pubs are a magical place

[junior needle]

They just need to be less shit against flak (and also have less bounce with a good stability stat)

[serene bough]

little more flak damage would be nice

[drifting oak]

like being able to do significant damage to muties just by hipfire spraying while also moving around at full speed with WASD to get away from fire or reposition toward corners/boxes to avoid dogs

that damage matters

[serene bough]

then again, its the headshots & ammo effic that make them worth using

[drifting oak]

sure if you can literally aimbot heads vraks7 is definitely better for most targets but bodyshot damage against maniacs makes actually killing them so much less of a hassle

[full sparrow]

Can one do a Stay Alert penance with Volley Fire being marked without having the ability?

Like, I don't want to shift around my talent tree just so I can pull it off.

[drifting oak]

like it's 4 shots to kill a flamer at close range, and you can do that while hipfiring and dodging

[full sparrow]

If there are other Vets with the Volleyfire mark down.

[cold field]

No you take run n gun too

[drifting oak]

the vraks7 takes like 6-8 shots?

[cold field]

and you dodge bullets so your team doesnt take them

[drifting oak]

8 if you don't roll any crits

[cold field]

youre taking shots that do no damage and you can shoot back

[drifting oak]

which is comparable TTK (the vraks7 shoots about twice as fast) but rips through a much larger amount of ammo (both in your magazine and in your entire ammo supply)

8 shots out of a vraks7 is like 1/3 of yuor entire magazine

while 4 shots out of an mg12 is like 10% of it

uptime matters a fuckton, I hate the vraks7 for that reason, smoldick magsize

[slate sleet]

you cannot bring up ammo

[serene bough]

never used the vraks7 before

[slate sleet]

i dont think i go below max ammo on vraks7

[serene bough]

hes saying ammo uptime not max ammo

[junior needle]

Then you've dedicated your two blessings slots to sprinting around places with no way of taunting enemies onto you. You're better off taking ghost on certain lasguns for permaghosting.

You're also immune to ranged fire from your sides while sprinting. By default

[serene bough]

as in how long you can keep firing before reloading

[slate sleet]

you can get a 30% reload speed talent with my build

uptime is not a issue with the vraks7

its honestly the most satisfying gun in the game to use on vet

just 1 tap everything

[terse idol]

That does mean you use alootttaa ammo

buuut

[slate sleet]

vraks never runs out of ammo you make more than you spent

d

[terse idol]

I think they have their own niche

[serene bough]

i mean thats just bc survivalist has nullified the ammo economy currently

[drifting oak]

I mean yes if you headshot literally everything and never miss or go for bodyshots literally ever

yeah you'll be fine

[cold field]

yeah but you legit dont run out of stamina sprinting in gun fire you dont have to slide and you can just gun things down

[tall torrent]

Yes it makes u completely invulnerable to ranged attacks

[slate sleet]

im not a good shot and i literally have 0 ammo issues on it ever

[tall torrent]

But it’s kind of niche

It’s ok on IAGs and braced autoguns

Stripped down + duck & dive

U don’t really need hit & run imo

[drifting oak]

also mg12 has so much ammo supply you can unironically afford to shoot horde

[slate sleet]

it does nothing to horde

[drifting oak]

vraks 7 100% can't afford to magdump into horde to soften it up or even fully cull it

[slate sleet]

too slow

[serene bough]

mg4 on the other hand you can magdump into hordes

[drifting oak]

you can fully cull groaner hordes at range because they suppress

[serene bough]

rather effective

[drifting oak]

shooting into groaner hordes causes them to freeze in place as they go into cower

and you can cull them down fully without them making headway

it's not AMAZING but it's notable

[slate sleet]

taking out your melee wep and killing 10 in 1 hit is also a good way to remove groaners i think

[drifting oak]

being able to cull groaners at range means that if you get a special spawn mid-fight you aren't facing greatly increased complexity

it's just "oh I was shooting these groaners, and now I'm shooting these specials"

not

"i was meleeing these groaners and suddenly there's pro NFL bombers making life hard me too"

[junior needle]

You can just do that anyway with other methods, but with that it's going to be more awkward and you're doing it while missing two damage blessings.

[cloud lava]

would having 20% damage resistance to gunners on 2 dif curios count as 40% resistance?

[junior needle]

Multiplicative

[drifting oak]

iirc the formula is multiplicative stacking per curio

[tall torrent]

It’s x0.8x0.8 = x0.64

[junior needle]

36% reduction

[drifting oak]

but in general having x3 gunner res makes a massive difference

[cloud lava]

ohhh cool

thanks

[junior needle]

Yep, you still want it

[tall torrent]

2 and 3 don’t have that big of a difference

0.64 vs 0.512

[drifting oak]

that's stil lnearly 15% from the original value (12.8%?)

I think that's still worth

3x gunner res, 3x sniper res for me

[terse idol]

It's probably worth just taking the 2x

I mean

[drifting oak]

i'm not a believer in stamina substats on curios

[tall torrent]

I think getting 2 is fine, then get smth else

Sniper resist works

[tall torrent]

Stamina regen is very strong

[serene bough]

Stam regen is essential for me

[tall torrent]

Block efficiency is also pretty strong

[drifting oak]

I think stamina regen only matters if your weapon relies on repeated pushes for not being able to cleave sufficiently

even a chainaxe spamming heavies is fine

[cloud lava]

block efficiency is good until you equip a devils claw and spam parry lol

[drifting oak]

but like if you use powersword or some of the axes

you need way more stamina than you get natively

[tall torrent]

+3 stamina with triple +12% stamina regen goes a very long way

[serene bough]

I only find block useful for when im swarmed by ragers or dealing with a monstro

Otherwise I think its inconsequential

[drifting oak]

block res helps for rezes

if you don't have frags (presumably you took kraks), shout, OR cloak

[serene bough]

just having a higher stamina pool is good enough

[drifting oak]

wel presumably you'd have both

[serene bough]

nah stam regen x3 + 1 stam curio

[drifting oak]

here's the big question

are you guys believers in (base) toughness regen speed

[buoyant axle]

level 30 is when people get good right guys

[drifting oak]

I am because the situation of being pinned down by spread gunners fucking sucks and every second matters there

[serene bough]

i rely on headshots to regen toughness primarily

[drifting oak]

i usualyl can't fit that node into my builds

period

[serene bough]

and i run ghost on my Mg4 so I dont worry about gunner/damage resists

[tall torrent]

Would u rather regen 1 bar/s or 1.36 bars/s

[drifting oak]

ghost means no headhunter + deadly accurate though

[serene bough]

DA isnt worth on the MG4

[terse idol]

Huh?

[tall torrent]

Doesn’t confirmed kill + iron will make u practically invulnerable to them

[terse idol]

I think its always valid, at least if you run head hunter too

[serene orbit]

what's the damage difference for 8 stacks of burn to 10 stacks of burn? for infernus 3 to 4 on laspistols

[terse idol]

Unless you run like deadshot

[drifting oak]

only if you have actual elites to kill and not just "50 fucking basic untaggable riflemen"

which is a shockingly common occurrence in my experience

[serene bough]

with how i play (infiltrate) you're gonna consistently kill things in 2-3 shots

with MF you can bump that upto 1-2 shots

[drifting oak]

"my team wiped to spread riflemen in quantity" is

very common

because pugs completely underestimate riflemen damage

[terse idol]

This is why you take that maeksmens focus talent which at 10 stacks gain toughndss back on weakpoint kill and a bit of cover will effectively be able to tank shots into reg gunners

[serene bough]

i dont see DA improving breakpoints on the MG4 as much as the Mg1a or 12

[tall torrent]

How does that de-value stamina regen

[drifting oak]

suicide zealot running in early, aggros all the riflemen, they spread across the fucking map, you now have to deal with all of them

[terse idol]

Ideally that zealot deals with them to be fair

[drifting oak]

It's building your curios for "situations that are likely to actually f---ing kill you" as opposed to "feeling more comfortable when things are already manageable" which is my opinion on stamina-on-curios

[terse idol]

Stamina regen is slept on

[tall torrent]

Ok what exactly are u building that helps u survive more in those scenarios

[terse idol]

Not the best but whatever

[tall torrent]

Gunner resist doesn’t help against them

Triple +5% toughness maybe helps in those situations

[drifting oak]

having to solo/duo clutch your way out of a gorillion prematurely aggroed shooters makes toughness regen worth
gunner res helps period
sniper res gives massive insurance against BS snipers by making shots taht would down you (and cause a cascading wipe) into "oops that happened"

[tall torrent]

Toughness regen is coherency regen only

I’d assume you take catch a breath already

[drifting oak]

eh, still applies then to short-manned situations (1-2 pugs down) which is still very common

like I can think of so many instances where I join a clearly weak team and 1-2 pugs just die for free to spread shooters and now it's up to who's left to carve our way through them

"large quantities of shooters" are a leading cause of death in pugs who don't respect spawns or aggro prematurely

also several finales have waves of shooters baked into them

[tall torrent]

In that case there’s not much you can build on curios

[drifting oak]

and every scrap of extra toughness you get to regen helps

[serene bough]

no idea

[drifting oak]

the times I've actually felt that having more stamina would help, mehhhhh

maybe if you sprint everywhere on autopilot

but like if you know you need stamina just walk, dawg

[terse idol]

Well it does help when you block

If you need to

Helps bring your stamina back during combat faster

[drifting oak]

stop sprinting into melee then going surprisedpikachuface.jpg when you get guardbroken trying to pushattack

[terse idol]

I don't get guardbroke is the thing

[drifting oak]

a single +3 stamina curio is more than enough, honestly I'm thinking about taking mine off

[terse idol]

Because I got some stamina regen

[serene bough]

i still find stam/stam regen more important than toughness regen

its too infinitesimal to me to notice a difference

[terse idol]

I got that array for 2 toughness 1hp

[drifting oak]

it's "comfort while in melee (I can control this)" to "actually living when the chips are down and the gunners are everywhere (I cannot control this)"

[slow spade]

Simply shoot them all before you need to melee

[terse idol]

Its covering ypur weakness

[drifting oak]

because the latter is caused by bad teams doing whatever the fuck they want

[slow spade]

Play ranged class -> discussing melee

Smh

[terse idol]

Horde clear

Melee horde clear

At a tiiinny bit

[serene bough]

i still dont understand how toughness regen is helping much against shooters

[drifting oak]

while the former you can control by just... not sprinting like a lunatic and not using no-stam knife

[serene bough]

as opposed to toughness DR

[slow spade]

Hopes and prayers 🙏

[terse idol]

Well this is why I don't like toughness regen

All it takes is one dude in melee to just turn it off

[drifting oak]

it helps when you're in those istuations where simply peeking at all instantly blows you past the iron will threshold

[terse idol]

And you can't expect to be in range 100% of the time even as a marksmen vet

[drifting oak]

because John Darktide Zealot has pulled two guner squads

which is all the fucking time

[junior needle]

It increases the speed at which it turns back on, as well as your regen rate.

[slow spade]

Wrangler class that forces allies into coherency when?

[serene bough]

to each their own playstyle, I think I can get enough toughness regen from one of two beginning talents personally

[junior needle]

Assuming you mean the perk, and not a gripe about toughness as a whole.

[tall torrent]

When u get hit, coherency toughness regen gets paused anyway

He’s thinking relying on a faster toughness regen in coherency will keep his toughness up more when it only regens at a flat 5/s if all 4 of his team is in coherency

Whereas CaB works on 5% of your total toughness without coherency

[terse idol]

The commisar class with a commissar pitol

[terse idol]

Hmmmm

I keep hearing conflicting things

[tall torrent]

In the situation where he described 2 man down and only him and another standing

[terse idol]

[tall torrent]

That’s 2.5 toughness per second

[junior needle]

This was confirmed awhile back

[terse idol]

So toughness regen is good again?

[junior needle]

It used to only affect the speed at which it started back in yonder release day

But that was changed a LONG time ago

[terse idol]

Or is it only in coherency toughness tegen

[drifting oak]

i notice the difference with 3x 30% regen nodes, you have to say "I need to get back to 100% before repeeking and trying to make headway" with just your one buddy with a flamer sucking his thumb behind the same corner you are

which is

[junior needle]

The curio perk is only coherency

[terse idol]

Hmm okay maybe I try again

[serene bough]

thats what im thinking too

[drifting oak]

extraordinarily common and you'll really notice the difference when It's All Up To You

[tall torrent]

It’s only coherency toughness regen
It improves the delay before toughness starts regen from coherency after getting hit, as well as the coherency regen rate itself

[terse idol]

So as long as you're in coherency

[drifting oak]

and yeah sure sometimes you can get enough free Confirmed Kill procs

to just breeze past

but very often not.

[serene bough]

I mean

[drifting oak]

I might feel different if I had the headshot-regen node but most of the time it's physically impossible

[serene bough]

I run ghost a lot so I don't find shooters chipping at my toughness a problem

but if Im low on toughness and need an escape i can use infiltrate or VoC to reset

[tall torrent]

The reality is
In his described scenario of 2 man down
The most he can get is 50% of that 5/s regen with the other teammate, being 2.5/s
Even with triple +30% toughness regen, that’s still under 5/s

CaB 5%/s off a regular veteran build (160 toughness minimum) is gonna be 8/s

[terse idol]

I just kinda get 10 stacks and get the toughness regen

[serene bough]

at which point do I really care much if my coherency regen is good or not

[terse idol]

From the gunners to tank

[tall torrent]

The difference from getting +90% toughness regen is very very small in the situation he’s describing

U essentially go from 10.5/s to 12.75/s by using 3 curio perk slots

[torn root]

yeah...

[tall torrent]

The math is just not mathing

[torn root]

having it on one curio even is just meh

[terse idol]

Oh

[shut flax]

Wouldn't ability CDR/stamina regen + anything else be better?

[torn root]

crd

[spare mountain]

oh hello

[tall torrent]

Tunnel vision works differently, at 10 stacks of MF it’s a flat out x1.25 to any toughness u gain

[torn root]

is kinda ass on vet

[tall torrent]

It’s a straight +25% multiplier

[shut flax]

I mean, 6 seconds is 6 seconds

[spare mountain]

slaughterer still nothing compared to the BM IV/Cycler IV combo?

[torn root]

12% cdr on a 30 second cool down is 3.6 seconds

I couldn't recommend it

[shut flax]

3 seconds is 3 seconds

I think I was doing math based on taking rez

since that was an argument the other day

[torn root]

3 seconds is 3 seconds

1 kill is 6 seconds

[tall torrent]

1~2 gunner resist + 1 sniper resist
Triple stamina regen
Triple block efficiency

[shut flax]

1 kill - 3 seconds = 9 seconds

sounds fun

[torn root]

speeding regen by half a second is going to matter so little

no

[torn root]

no

[icy stirrup]

slaghter/PC on power sword still the play?

[torn root]

because if you used the ability you need 5 kills

[tall torrent]

BM/sunder + PC4

[torn root]

regardless if you have the 3.6 cd

[icy stirrup]

ok ok

[shut flax]

Eh, works for me. The amount of times I had to use it off cooldown recently is nuts.

[icy stirrup]

got a lucky ass roll on a sword

[torn root]

the moments it will matter are very low in frequence

[spare mountain]

If you have both sunder IV and BM IV, what would you pick

[torn root]

especially in higher difficulty with more spawns or specials

[spare mountain]

plasma gun vet here with not much melee investment

[shut flax]

There's also spawn draughts occationally

[tall torrent]

Depends on what you want

Fight a bunch of melee elites at the same time? Sunder
Just chop hordes super efficiently? BM

[spare mountain]

I have plasma for elites

so BM for me

[torn root]

in low instensity, sure

[spare mountain]

is this dead on arrival?

[terse idol]

that's not the ability cool down regen doing it then

It's purely the talent to reduce the CDR

[serene bough]

id keep it

[shut flax]

3 seconds is 3 seconds still

[serene bough]

can swap middle and top with whatever

[shut flax]

That's a LONG time to need something

[terse idol]

It's not signifanct enough where you could be taking something with more impact

[shut flax]

Like?

[terse idol]

3 seconds in darktide ...

All I can say is like

If your run is determined by 3 seconds

Something was horribly wrong to begin with

[spare mountain]

is stam worth on vet though?

I'd rather run 2x tough 1 hp

[shut flax]

Then stop doing math based on optimal play.

[torn root]

this

[shut flax]

Shit happens lol. I plan for it.

[terse idol]

3 seconds is very very very very small of a time frame in the full length of a 25-30 minute game

[terse idol]

It's not about being optimal

[white minnow]

12% is 12%

[shut flax]

3 seconds also adds up over the course of a 30 minute game.

[torn root]

those 3 seconds become useless the moment you start getting resets with tactical awareness

[white minnow]

the other perks aren't appealing to me

[tall torrent]

I think 3 CDR makes a little bit of sense because here’s the logic
Duty & honor lasts 15s, CD is 30s, so there’s a 15s window of not having overshield
If you cut that 15s downtime down to a 12s, now you’re just 2 special kills (instead of 3) off from having it nearly permanently ready

It’s just that 3x CDR takes up 1 slot on all of ur curios and that’s a big investment

[torn root]

its not based on optimal play

[white minnow]

well, there's downtime where you're just fighting elite patrols

[terse idol]

It's just like, urgh, spending a curio slot on 3 seconds, this is based on taking 3xability regen red

[torn root]

its taking a look into reliance and variability

[white minnow]

well sure, but what other perks might you take as an alternative

[torn root]

toughness

stamina regen

[shut flax]

You can talk about it all you want, I'm still gonna run it lol. Suits me just fine.

[torn root]

resistance

[terse idol]

Gunner res, block resistance, tougness, hp, sniper res

[white minnow]

I already take toughness and gunner res

[torn root]

block efficienct

[white minnow]

I don't care for the stamina perks

[terse idol]

dat's fine

[shut flax]

Stamina regen my beloved

[white minnow]

since I barely block and never use deadshot

[torn root]

it competes with a few better options

[terse idol]

It's not even about blocking

If you revive someone

block efficiency makes it so you hold that revive longer

[torn root]

block efficiency works on revive

lmao

but k

[terse idol]

you don't bust bank on revive

[white minnow]

i usually have nades for that

since I have both nade Regen and demo team

[torn root]

revive speed is also more impactful than commiting 1/3 slots on 3 different curios

[white minnow]

my teammates don't go down enough for me to consider revive speed

[terse idol]

It's a safety measure

Is all

It's not bad

[white minnow]

at most, they'll go down ~4 times if they're not dogshit

[shut flax]

Pubs needs all the safety nets you can get.

[white minnow]

and they're not terribly dogshit most times

[terse idol]

And it helps you

[torn root]

ngl the only time that 3 seconds really matter is in malice

lmao

[white minnow]

I figure that VoC is good enough for protecting them

[terse idol]

If you god forbid need to block a boss or something

yesss, but this is why like 3 seconds off voc isn't my dealio, because
I mean

Second you're not spamming it off cooldown every second

[white minnow]

sure I am

[terse idol]

There will be times where it'll sit off cool down

[shut flax]

The second you aren't shooting something, you're burning DPS.

So what?

[torn root]

i spam it off cd

[terse idol]

So your 3 seconds is kinda just sitting there

[shut flax]

It'll be up when you need it most lol

[torn root]

and im not using 3.6 seconds

[terse idol]

Yes, it'll be up if you need it most

[white minnow]

I could also say that you're not using revive speed all the time

[terse idol]

3 seconds prior

🥹

[torn root]

the only time you have a problem finding specials is in malice or liek low intensity

[terse idol]

Revive speed helps vs trappers too

Iirc

[torn root]

its kinda meh

[tall torrent]

No

[terse idol]

Oh

Damn

[torn root]

cool

[shut flax]

I could just be overthinking it. A lot can happen in 3 seconds.

But hey, I've been burned before so eh.

[torn root]

but the impact of 1 revivespeed vs 3 cdr perks

is that it takes up 1 slot on 1 curio

instead of 1 on 3

[shut flax]

Then run it alongside lol

[terse idol]

But wait

[shut flax]

It's not a matter of if/then at that point

[terse idol]

I dunno

[shut flax]

Just take both

[terse idol]

Alot can happen in 3 seconds but like I said before

Runs aren't determimed in an interval of 3 seconds unless something horrible happened

[torn root]

^

[terse idol]

That you needed VOC up

That you couldn't have gotten it

By killing elites

Or err

[shut flax]

Eh, shit happens.

[terse idol]

Specials

[buoyant axle]

what blessings do i want for columnus iag

[torn root]

Dumdum primarily

[tall torrent]

Elites don’t help vet cooldown

[terse idol]

Oh specs

[torn root]

only specials

[shut flax]

Again, I'd just rather have it and not need it than need it but not have it.

[echo pendant]

I'm both impressed and embarrassed how the bolt gun is actually full automatic.

It took me 3 months to realize it is..

[shut flax]

(I wish vets got CDR on elite kills)

[terse idol]

I keep forgoring

[shut flax]

It would be a straight buff

[white minnow]

there's also just pushing a map faster

[echo pendant]

I kept tap firing the thing

[white minnow]

it doesn't always have to be about the worst situations

[terse idol]

You won't be pushing a map 3 seconds faster

[white minnow]

well yeah

[terse idol]

hell if pushing mattered that much, you'd run sprint reduction

[shut flax]

Agree there. It's literally for spamming off cooldown in "oh shit" moments

[white minnow]

it's a marginal benefit that I prefer over my alternatives

[terse idol]

Yes but

Then you'd already have had it up

For any "oh shit"

moments

Or you will be in a position where you can get another VOC up by killing 1 or 2 specials

[buoyant axle]

is raking fire worth it for bosses (bulwarks?)

[shut flax]

Insert human error, possibly

[tall torrent]

I mean why don’t y’all just try what the other side is proposing for a day

See what actually happens by switching ur curios around

[torn root]

i'd say no

[tall torrent]

[torn root]

I use to play with cdr

[shut flax]

I do! I used to run revive. Then people stopped dying. Then people started dying.

[white minnow]

Ive swapped my curios around and I like CDR the most as my 3rd option

[torn root]

it has less of an effect on vet than on other classes

[terse idol]

faiiiir

[shut flax]

Now I'm tethered to VOC because of survivors guilt.

[torn root]

the only ability cdr really kinda of changes is infiltrate

[terse idol]

I just think it's a placebo, but I'll try

Sure

[tall torrent]

I think stamina regen + block efficiency are must-have, then the 3rd slot I go gunner & sniper resist

[shut flax]

It's like running reload speed. You don't need it, but damn. When you need it you need it.

[terse idol]

Well

The difference being

It's 30%

[shut flax]

Unless you're running revolver

[torn root]

even then im not fighting for 5.4 seconds over stamina regen

not even over 15% toughness

[terse idol]

And if you're not mag dumping

[torn root]

or 15% health

[terse idol]

You can add it onto the other reload talent

[torn root]

and most definatley not over any of the resistances

[shut flax]

If onslaught wasn't so expensive, I'd def run both

[torn root]

20% resistance vs 1.2 seconds off of your ability is crazy btw

just gunna put that out there

[shut flax]

Insert generic "don't get hit" comment here

[torn root]

insert don't use ability in a bad situation when you might need it comment ''here''

[terse idol]

You will get hit

[shut flax]

I kid, I kid. I was literally talking about planning for the worst earlier.

[terse idol]

3s of cool down ain't gonna help

Yesss

[shut flax]

Don't get pissy at a joke.

Lel

[terse idol]

This is why planning for the worst means planning for sniper res, res gunner res

Blehhh

[shut flax]

Then run it too lol

[torn root]

in terms of importance stamina regen and resistances run pretty high already

[shut flax]

Why are we talking like it's exclusive?

[torn root]

not that its exclusive

[shut flax]

Stamina regen is absolutely important. Pair that with a resistance and anything else you need.

[tulip condor]

Agripinna IAG, what strong blessings would be good for it?

[torn root]

but you have 9 slots for bonuses

[tall torrent]

I mean, here’s the math for triple CDR at least for VoC

Duty & honor lasts 15s, CD is 30s, so there’s a 15s window of not having overshield
If you cut that 15s downtime down to a 12s, now you’re just 2 special kills (instead of 3) off from having it nearly permanently ready

It’s just that 3x CDR takes up 1 slot on all of ur curios and that’s a big investment

[torn root]

3.6 seconds off of your CD need 3/9 slots

[tall torrent]

It’s not bad

[echo pendant]

Is throwing 2 grenades at once a good perk?

[tall torrent]

It’s preference

It’s just huge investment

And whether u wanna play into that big investment is up to the player

[shut flax]

If you have space for it, sure. The points can go to better places, though.

[slate sleet]

NO

[shut flax]

It could also be placebo for the "warm a fuzzy" feeling.

[torn root]

it's rng is kinda limited to eneemy richness

[formal holly]

percentage based makes it rng

[torn root]

ie getting back the grenades to roll the dice

[formal holly]

if it was every 3 grenades one is a double it be good

or something like that

[shut flax]

that would be nuts with shredders

[tulip condor]

What are strong blessings for the Agripinna IAG?

[torn root]

yeah its 1 every 5 nades

[formal holly]

its maybe one in every 5

[tall torrent]

If ur gonna take twined blast just do me a favour and grab demo stockpile + demo team

[formal holly]

yeah its ok when full nade build

[torn root]

^

[echo pendant]

Well I'm running a full nade

[formal holly]

just not the best nade perk out there

[tall torrent]

U just need tinkerer, stockpile + demo team

Twinned blast and grenadier are not needed

[formal holly]

running shredders?

[torn root]

twinned blast usage is the one time i would actually recommend grendier

[echo pendant]

Imagine if it threw 3 grenades at once instead of 2. Would justify the low percentage

[tall torrent]

Grenadier at least makes a bit more sense because u path through an actually useful node of 5% crit chance

Twinned blast is just “why don’t u grab something better”

[torn root]

well not even that

its increases your roll probability

because you have an extra slot that can be filled

[tall torrent]

Honestly make twinned blast 50% then I’ll consider taking it

Same with opening salvo, make it like at least 20% or smth

[formal holly]

just make it not rng

[shut flax]

Is knife psyker still good? I'm running with one on my team and I haven't seen one since like, last year.

[terse idol]

If it wasn't RNG hmmm

[torn root]

i feel like twinned blast should be a guarenteed proc on a cooldown

maybe like every 90 seconds

[echo pendant]

As long as you're not dying, it works

[torn root]

i dislike rng

[formal holly]

like it could proc after using ult

[terse idol]

That would be too goofy

[echo pendant]

But it is true, where did all of them go?

[terse idol]

With current meta

[formal holly]

with a internal cd or something

[torn root]

a dog pack

[terse idol]

Maybe...

Hmm

[echo pendant]

I only saw like one in a match on randoms

[terse idol]

It depends how many grenades you're gonna get back

[tall torrent]

I’m ok with random probability as long as it’s one of the following two:

1. If it’s a low probability, I deserve to get to roll it so many times that it occurs enough times to justify the investment
2. If I don’t get to roll it many times, it better be a high probability or I’m not investing into it

[torn root]

guarentees multiple procs if you had it after ability activation

[formal holly]

or after you kill a a elite

[terse idol]

On auric damnation and damnation

That might as well be 100% upkeep

[white minnow]

the average value should at least be similar or worth it compared to other talents

[formal holly]

you dont have grenades 100% of the time

[terse idol]

True true

[white minnow]

e.g., with grenadier and with shredders, it should be at least 25% chance

[torn root]

that's hard to justify when looking at the tree

[white minnow]

y not

[torn root]

how would we even measure the average value?

[white minnow]

I consider it pretty underpowered

well, I compare it to grenadier

which gives you 1 extra nade

does throwing multiple smokes at once stack in a significant way?

[torn root]

yeah for grenedier you can actually measure the average amount of extra grenades it gives

fair enough

[white minnow]

if not we can just ignore smokes

[formal holly]

i only use smokes to troll

[torn root]

but the varience sky rockets with field improv

[formal holly]

when i have to pick them

[white minnow]

so with 4 nades (shredder and grenadier), I'd want at least 25% so that 4 * 0.25 = 1

[formal holly]

i dont like field improv either

just a item boost

[torn root]

field improve is strong af

[formal holly]

yeah but also rng

[torn root]

its just that it competes

with other talent points

or paths even

[formal holly]

it would be good if there was super high tier maps

where you need every little edge you can get

[torn root]

there is no situation where it isn't really good

because you are guarenteed a few usable items through it by default

[formal holly]

i can think of a few

multiple psykers

[torn root]

except on no ammo pick ups I believe

[formal holly]

knife thrower zealot

rock ogryns

[torn root]

multiple psykers doesnt stop you from using it

lmao

and rock ogryn uses ammo

next

[formal holly]

yeah but it reduces the effect

[torn root]

also

[formal holly]

you want it for the nades

[torn root]

corruption exists

ppl take damage

which it heals faster

[formal holly]

its good in that extra hard boss matchup

but otherwise

[torn root]

it's never not useful

[white minnow]

field improv op because assail gunkers Regen assail shards from it

[formal holly]

lol

[torn root]

tf

they do?

LMAO

[formal holly]

thats funny

anyway

you need a item for the perk to start working

which is why i dont like it

[torn root]

the items tht the perk works with are literally guarenteed

you also don't have to be the one that uses them either

[terse idol]

Which is fine, because most maps will always have ooone

and hopefully someone uses it

[formal holly]

yeah

[terse idol]

You can tank alot suffice it to say with it up

[formal holly]

its good in a 4 man with mikes

[terse idol]

And a well placed medpack can save the game with the upgrade

Noo

Just gotta

[torn root]

no?

lmao

[potent iris]

it's baller af

[terse idol]

Put it down right

[formal holly]

with randos its meh

[torn root]

thats you assuming a random can't be good

[potent iris]

honestly even with randoms field improv still slaps

[torn root]

pessimism doesn't reduce the effective ness of anything, except words of encouragement

[potent iris]

like you can just use it for your own benefit

[low oar]

Ackshully. It probably does

Sets the mood and tone

[formal holly]

it needs communication

[potent iris]

a free nade top up, and buffed med packs are very nice to have even when solo

[torn root]

nope

dont need communication at all

[formal holly]

people dont know you have it unless you tell them

[torn root]

you can use communication