veteran-class

[torn root]

cause we talk about BPs as if its not gunna be vastly different on each skill tree instead of the actual requirements for them

[terse idol]

But I do recognize it's power crept

[spring rose]

Tru

It's generally my anxiety stuff

[torn root]

this is why the BP talk without even mentioning talents is weird to me

[terse idol]

Yeah thats the whole thing I'm bouncing

[torn root]

it got me upset because when i was picking up the PSword i legit had ppl tell me NOT to take Elite damage

[spark sandal]

This is why the last spreadsheet I saw was done when we only had 6 talent choices

[torn root]

because it wouldn't hit a BP

told them to do the math and they never did

[terse idol]

Long shot marksmen focus just fills out you bp on both, I would need to test to see

[torn root]

did that shit my damned self and proved the point wrong

elite damage is worth and now im saying it every time someone says otherwise

[terse idol]

I'm adamant on building pgun without talent but that's me, I feel like it opens you up for more skill choices at least on that instance

I mean... okay without longshot

But it does seem like + elite will actually open folks up

Taking into account talent choices

[torn root]

it's good to test without talents, but realistically we are never going to be using the weapons without them

[terse idol]

Yeah, I mean in truth I just don't test with longshot

[spark sandal]

There is also the annoyance of sometimes all the math was worthless when they suddenly turn your t4 blessing from 80 rending to 60 or whatever xD

[terse idol]

Still do use extra weakpoint, + elite talents

[torn root]

nah that part is fine

[terse idol]

Just nerf things

I don't think it hurts it too much

[spark sandal]

Though I think psyker chat gets so bogged in math its a nightmare

[torn root]

but like this is why when ever i specifically ask or talk about them i DO ask or tell what talents affect them

[terse idol]

This is why I often preface with or without Longshot

[umbral scaffold]

Longshot helps me one-shot some shit

Along with weakspot

[trim steppe]

Woah, just bought this green from Brunt and look what Hadron gave me

[torn root]

like on PSword you arent hitting that 2 shot without Presicion Strikes or Desperado

[umbral scaffold]

Ye

[terse idol]

Mhm, I'm just stubborn don't want to be put into a situation where they're too close

[torn root]

HOYL SHIT

[terse idol]

That long shot doesn't work, maybe to my detriment

[umbral scaffold]

Thunderous unfortunately doesn't work as one would imagine on chainaxes

At least it's a tier 4 tho

[tranquil bronze]

What perks is best for caxe again? FlakNiac right?

[torn root]

I thought ppl ran thunderous for Carapace killing?

[terse idol]

Yrah that's stuff is what gave me a headache, mr.caim helped me with a rashad bp

[median merlin]

yay i can't run a sniper build because i have to use VoC to carry people

[torn root]

sniper while using VoC lmao

[umbral scaffold]

Thunderous doesn't apply per tick anyway

[terse idol]

Just use marksmens focus

[median merlin]

i shouldn't have to carry in a low intensity damnation.

[torn root]

but the team need +50 toughness

🙂

[umbral scaffold]

Better to get thrust and do the funny specials instead of hitting the poor crusher 35 times to stack brittleness

[torn root]

we all gotta be able to carry a bit of extra weight

not everyone is good

and some have bad days/games

[umbral scaffold]

Carrying low intensity is piss easy anyway, unless the director does a funny

Like that time I got 7 bulwarks as the first enemies

[trim steppe]

low-int dam sometimes also has malice players looking for plasteel so you gotta pull a bit more weight

[torn root]

im willing to carry anyplayer

if its for plasteel

lmao

when fatshark gets off of Vacation they should give us 1 month of 2x plasteel

right?

[terse idol]

[torn root]

actually why aren't there like double resource events like in other games?

[terse idol]

Uh

[torn root]

if you tell me i have missed any imma launch a mouse

[thick rose]

because you will get nothing and you will like it

the shark is fat because it keeps everything for itself

[terse idol]

What waack

[spark sandal]

There was the 'event' where plasteel refunded itself from about 80% of what you spent but that was more a... bug, that was unavaoildable that they just said whatever we aren't punishing we'll get it fixed eventually.

Anytime you had hadron touch something, then logged off, or went to character select, or ... played a map

[wanton dawn]

Whenever you reloaded you were refunded so it was pretty much unavoidable unless you actively tried to avoid it

Avoiding it was the complicated part

[spark sandal]

I don't think there was a way to avoid it other than never leaving the lobby xD

[torn root]

Just Make it a feature

[wanton dawn]

There might have been but imagine telling ppl to do space jumbo tech to avoid a refunding bug

[jolly hemlock]

wasnt there a plasteel exploid?

i heard of it

[wanton dawn]

It is not an exploit when it cannot be avoided

[jolly hemlock]

😂

[wanton dawn]

The exploit was playing

[jolly hemlock]

best exploid

[spark sandal]

It was a bug/exploit, but literally unavoidable, and they just announced it's fine whatever don't worry.

[terse idol]

The explot is playing on heresy

[jolly hemlock]

i diddnt play to that time

[wanton dawn]

Hey sexy

[jolly hemlock]

auric maelstrom is fine for farming

[spark sandal]

Yeah, it was a silly time. A small sanity refill after all the time spent ... in the early crafting days....

[wanton dawn]

time

[torn root]

i can't find ppl doing them when i want to farm

[jolly hemlock]

i just pug

cant bother to do vox callouts

[torn root]

may ye be blessed with the perfect blessing combo

[wanton dawn]

Result is okay, had to put pc4 cuz i got pc3. Meh perk though

Oh well

[jolly hemlock]

never tried sunder is it worth it?

[wanton dawn]

yes

lemme show yah

[vivid bolt]

more cleave is usually always good

[torn root]

sunder bumps 4 to +5 ish?

at t4 or more?

[wanton dawn]

#veteran-class message

[jolly hemlock]

but i think i can never let go of my knife again lol

[wanton dawn]

Also this #veteran-class message

[tranquil bronze]

Having trouble getting the long bomb penance

[wanton dawn]

Obviously this #veteran-class message

[torn root]

so sunder = cc

got it

lmao

[wanton dawn]

And this is just for bragging right #veteran-class message

[terse idol]

That is certainly argument against BM

[jolly hemlock]

seems like sunder is nice

[wanton dawn]

It is not argument against BM. BM and sunder have both their niche

[terse idol]

Oooh

[wanton dawn]

I prefer sunder as a general pcik

[terse idol]

Woops I mispoke

[wanton dawn]

But I need BM for my bayonet build

[jolly hemlock]

but i think i need to stay with the knife need the speed to collect the materials for the emprah to gamble on handron

[terse idol]

[vivid bolt]

As we can see, a fair and balanced weapon.

[wanton dawn]

Yeah, imagine this noob killing 30 ragers when he is so bad at the game

Need a busted weapon to do it

lame

[torn root]

PSword is balanced guys

stop being mad at it

[terse idol]

Also damn, this made me realise the AI director weighs flak ragers very heavily

I always see blobs of dredge ragers

Not scab ones

[torn root]

In auric you get blobs of Maulers with flak ragers

that the only time i see more than 2 at the same time

[wanton dawn]

Alright, I need a columnus iaf build, I wanna bring a bad boy to a ride

[torn root]

oh?!?!?!

[wanton dawn]

This dude is burning my pocket

[torn root]

You could just go the marksman focus build i think a few ppl have recommended

[bitter turtle]

I go grenade lite to get all the damages

[torn root]

you and i have similar trees

i used to get elite damage then I realized i didnt need it, might go back to it tho

[bitter turtle]

Could drop it yeah

[wanton dawn]

Nah you know what ? I am going ALL IN

2s I am build a hot turd

[bitter turtle]

For demo team and more sub on focus target

[wanton dawn]

BEHOLD. AM GOING TO TEST IN AURIC AN NOBODY CAN STOP ME

[bitter turtle]

I might try stamina regen on focus target and 🦆 and 🤿

With deadshot

[wanton dawn]

2 STAM / 1 THOUGHNESS BABY

[bitter turtle]

With graia

When I'm home

Lul

[bitter turtle]

Ya like that

[torn root]

btw gameslantern has some weird choices for ads

[bitter turtle]

Might do that with graia

But I haven't tried since not home

Pretty sure they're just google ads

I have japanese ones

I don't like deadshot column personally

I have muscle memory sprinting everywhere lol

[torn root]

just requires some stamina 🙂

you can still sprint

stamina regen exists

[bitter turtle]

It just never works out for me where I feel like it's worth

Might just be a

skill issue

[torn root]

well no

its not neccessary

its just funny

[bitter turtle]

I'm gonna try it with graia

Tho

Since lower rof

[torn root]

how many +3 stamina curios do you try it with?

did*

[wanton dawn]

Too squishy, I need to add a bit of TDR

[torn root]

man you're crazy for not taking iron will

ngl

lmao

[thick rose]

not as crazy as rawdogging the internet

[wanton dawn]

It is even worse now

[torn root]

not Exhilarating Takedown OR Iron Will?

madness!

HERESY even

[wanton dawn]

I still think exhil takedown is crap

[torn root]

going in raw against the forces of chaos

30% TDR is NOT crap

i like it over confirmed kill

[wanton dawn]

I don't need unreliable TDR

[torn root]

unreliable?

[wanton dawn]

yeah, unreliable

[torn root]

its a headshot kill 😦

[median merlin]

you don't always get the headshot in the midst of battle

[torn root]

you get them literally for free with Precision Strikes

and he said he was using columnus

so actually for free

[wanton dawn]

When I need thoughness I have a sword in hand

[torn root]

just remember

the forces of chaos don't use lube

[umbral scaffold]

That looks like my build
Except I take some stuff from the middle

And I take the left side for the reload during swaps
But not the toughness or the right side

[wanton dawn]

Alright, I think i can refine this

going back to left keystone though me think

[torn root]

don't forget protection

Iron Will brand 🙂

[wanton dawn]

I might take exhil but not iron will

[torn root]

that's a start

[glossy swallow]

Understandable, because;

Iron Will ➡️ Iron Within ➡️ Iron Within, Iron Without ➡️ Heretical ➡️ Bad ➡️ Not Good ➡️ Bolter on Zealot ➡️ Good ➡️ Iron Will Good

Wait

[dusky elm]

this one looks promissing

[spring rose]

Damn that Columbus looks fire

[torn root]

that's a damn good columnus

personally i run carapace on mine

with flak

[spring rose]

But manic and flak is also really good

Rip and tear with that Columbus man

I'm jelly if I'm being honest

[torn root]

i just wish i had dumdum4 it's only think that matters on columnus

but the emperor never provides

[rare tartan]

guys stoping power is it important for shotgun ?

[torn root]

yes

its always important

still affects your close damage

[spring rose]

Real

I've been Rollin for that shit too and it never drops

[median merlin]

i am busy falling in love with the vraks MK7

it's not a bad weapon

[spring rose]

Vraks is fun

I got one myself

Put exec stance on that bad boy and it deletes shit

[dusky elm]

@torn root I am missing that too

[spring rose]

Real

99% of gamblers quit before they win big

Remember that fellas

[torn root]

I did lmao

I really did quit too early

just got it while chattin about it

now i need to roll a new gun lmao

[spring rose]

Damnnnn

[median merlin]

Thats what I am doing

[spring rose]

Head click they ded

[median merlin]

Only 350 power but it got it where it counts

[spring rose]

Frfr

[median merlin]

I could roll a better one, but that will take time

Hadron almost bricked it

[spring rose]

Keep gambling

Never quit

[median merlin]

Max in damage and finesse, not bad in ammo or stopping power

I was a primary helbore and mk12 user

[wanton dawn]

Alright, this is what I am going to work with for now.

It is certainly a build

OY, HELLO SEXY

Brunt is being extra nice today

Oh well, salvageable

[median merlin]

Very

[wanton dawn]

I probably have better in my stash though

I have a large stash

[torn root]

rolling collumnus into oblivion

need my 80 80

[median merlin]

Good luck

[torn root]

500k spent

[median merlin]

I can't wait until they release the red tier

[torn root]

so much garbage

gunna shoot myself in the foot now

[spring rose]

[torn root]

i dont need the ammo i guess lmao

bet hardon bricks my 2/4 rolls i need too

[median merlin]

Depends on how long you hold that trigger

[spring rose]

Fr wym you got survivalist you'll be fine

[median merlin]

^^^

[torn root]

wish it were 25% carapace

fml

[spring rose]

Hadron fuckin with u fr

[torn root]

the 5% doesnt matter as long as i get either sustained fire 4 or dumdum 4 on it

or im gunna cry

[rare tartan]

Hadron is a bae to me

[median merlin]

3 370+ vrak MK7 but they all have 70% damage or lower

lmao

[torn root]

and? that;s good lmao

well the 70% ones

[median merlin]

the 350 i am using has 78% and i have another at 79

[dusky elm]

Did anybody try the Agripina precise shotgun build?

[rare tartan]

there is a shoty build ? 😮

[dusky elm]

thats why I am asking

I just picked this one in the shop

[median merlin]

hadron failure.

😦

[median merlin]

blessing sucks, but stats are good

[umbral scaffold]

damn this is a pretty decent piece

[median merlin]

LMAO damnation team folded like a bad hand in the 3rd room in hl-17-36.

as soon as they hit a crusher and friends they went down immediately

so bad

[torn root]

uuuh

vet chat is vet chat 🙂

[quick steeple]

ive run em, idk what build youre referring to tho

[dusty sluice]

Does +unyielding make the colomnus iag any more silly?

[torn root]

kills reapers and bulwarks a lot faster

hits monsters pretty hard too

[quick steeple]

i have flakyielding/dumdum4/raking4 on one and it shreds the bigbois

[dusty sluice]

Is there any specific things with using it too, as I seem to get the most ranged kills but really low damage, is it just a low overall low damage weapon or am I using it wrong?

[wanton dawn]

I removed my sniper resist and I got one shooted

[torn root]

pretty sizeable damage to monster

but probably only take for reapers and bulwarks

with ping and some other buffs its can easliy half health in 1 clip

or just under half health

[thick rose]

a lot of overall damage comes from wiping out hordes if you are getting lots of specials and elites or whatever they are called you are doing your job

(melee/ranged)

[torn root]

which weapon?

[dusty sluice]

Colomnus iag

[torn root]

this cant be the columnus yer talkking about

OH HEEEEELL NAW

[dusty sluice]

It’s still 200k+

[torn root]

the gun slaughters at grey

and damage per match is kinda of a trap

ppl farm that shit lmao

[dusty sluice]

Ye ig

[torn root]

unless your hunting to farm too you're probably not gunna compete with some people

DON'T be the idiot that sits at a door farming instead of progressing through the map

[dusty sluice]

I watched a lvl 800+ zealot get very competitive over kills and grabbing plassteel etc

[dusty sluice]

Ye ik

[thick rose]

at least 1/3 of my runs I sit behind the team and take out chasing specials, making sure I dont fall too far behind

you just wanna make your team win, and know you hve done that IMO

[torn root]

but generally the only 2 talents i think you should get for columnus is ONSLAUGHT and RENDING STRIKES, heavy priority on the former over the latter

[thick rose]

dont die #1

ya know

[torn root]

this is a good take

[thick rose]

the scoreboard mod not listing downs/deaths is interesting to me

[torn root]

Like i can farm damage but its annoying

and unnecessary

[dusty sluice]

Ye

[torn root]

but back to columnus

Onslaught is like BUILT for that gun

[dusty sluice]

Very fun

[torn root]

like actually

and rending gives it a big bump in damage vs carapace

[dusty sluice]

I’ve noticed lol, also What Brauto would you recommend for cc?

[torn root]

?

[dusty sluice]

Braced auto for hordeclear

[quick steeple]

agribr is great, idk what you mean by cc tho

[quick steeple]

your melee wep

[dusty sluice]

Ik, I’m just wondering what one does it the best

[torn root]

well people normally dont use the term Crowd Control to talk about killing enemies

[thick rose]

IAGs can shoot hordes too if you want to do that but its not a playstyle I wouldn't say

[torn root]

but its does kind of count here i guess

[thick rose]

I have a good agrip IAG that I use more than col

[torn root]

but Columnus is good at killing chaff as well

[thick rose]

and you can just semi auto tap heads from far away to thin if you want

[torn root]

idk about braced guns

[thick rose]

but in the end you can just smash them with melee at a choke

[torn root]

its hard to hit snipers with them

[thick rose]

I dont vibe with the braced autos at all

and TBH, im not sure if I don't understand them but

agri IAG you can hipfire A LOT

with accuracy

but also when you want you can smash shit

[dusty sluice]

I’ve used them for about 90+ hours on zealot lol

[thick rose]

yeah

thats funny

[dusty sluice]

Mainly agri

[thick rose]

I use a col braced on my zealot and it works

but on vet I dont like it

[torn root]

Columnus mows down hordes decently imo, probably swap to melee at some point tho

[thick rose]

I spose

zealot has that talent that lowers some stuff

and buffs attack speed

I dont zealot a lot XD

[strange sparrow]

The problem with braced is you lose out the ability to hit heads

[torn root]

^

and snipers from a far

[quick steeple]

zel has the talent to counter that which is the diff

[strange sparrow]

Also their multiplier to weak spot ain’t that great for some reason

Braced gun should work like ripper gun

Just a lot of ammo a lot of rpm against hordes

For that you lose out the ability to aim

[thick rose]

they shoulda made braced more like an LMG, even if it was the same effectiveness I might use one for the vibes

[strange sparrow]

The game still don’t have an actual LMG for Veteran

You could argue Columnus being SMG

Agri IAG being rifle

V7 being Marksman rifle

[thick rose]

yep

im gonna froth if they add a las and auto LMG archetype

[torn root]

columnus is basically the G36

[thick rose]

I have no idea how they balance one though

[strange sparrow]

The magazine size and its RPM make me feel it fit the role of SMG better

[strange sparrow]

Simple, no ADS

only hip fire

You can’t do anything with the gun, but to shred waves of hordes

You would run into ammo problem eventually but it makes a great gun to counter build up waves

[torn root]

braced guns special should be to toggle between braced and ads lmao

it makes no sense to be able to one but not the other

im talking shit now

[thick rose]

wtf does the brace actually do

[torn root]

you basically are hipfiring

[strange sparrow]

Easier recoil control

[thick rose]

really?

[torn root]

with it anchored to the hip

[thick rose]

I dunno wtf im doing with it

[strange sparrow]

Yes your recoil ADS is horizontal only

It only goes side way

But that’s assuming all other gun in this game have bad recoil

Imagine gunner’s gun are the new “braced gun”

ADS make you immobile (90% mobility reduction)

[thick rose]

I find it really fun to zoom around hipfiring the agri iag quite close

basically like a melee weapon

[strange sparrow]

But you get ability to shred waves

[torn root]

no

not in this kind of game

[strange sparrow]

Because currently all the gun aren’t really “wave shredding”

[torn root]

lmao sorry

[strange sparrow]

I mean there’s already Hellbore user

[torn root]

give a gun that can do that and we REALLY won't need melee

[strange sparrow]

So I don’t believe people won’t use it simply as a wave control

[thick rose]

once I used kickback on ogryn I stopped fucking around shooting hordes

[torn root]

melee already feels like a secondary option at best

[thick rose]

I just love when there are lots of dreg shooters

I turret about

[strange sparrow]

That’s because Veteran Class in general and how Columnus are filling that specific role in a way

You can shoot into the wave with your insane RPM and Dmg

Which shred enemy

[strange sparrow]

Yea ogyrn have that gameplay rn

[torn root]

well its not just the columnus but that isnt wrong

[thick rose]

is there any difference in penetration between the IAGs ?

err

I should say

pen in darktide is kinda like armor pen right?

[torn root]

yes

[thick rose]

I mean like how the revolver can shoot through multiple enemies

whatever that is called

[quick steeple]

thats cleave

[thick rose]

ah

so cleave then

[strange sparrow]

I don’t wanna go in depth about it but gunlugger whole thing is “horde control”

But they don’t get to not partake melee fight

[torn root]

it goes through a % of flak and carapace damage reduction

[strange sparrow]

Because it’s still weak against specific enemy variant

[thick rose]

so I should say is there a difference in cleave between the IAG variants ?

[strange sparrow]

I don’t think so

[torn root]

i know this

but eventually gotta melee no?

well probably not if you got a vet and enough specials

[strange sparrow]

Yeah, so is what the LMG gonna be

[thick rose]

its ahrd to use veteran shotguns after using kickback too :/

[strange sparrow]

Because it’s good against unarmored but shit against flak and cara

The problem is just onslaught

[thick rose]

kickback is one tasty weapon

[torn root]

if you give iag cleave ths gun would have to be disabled on day 1

lmao

all of them

[strange sparrow]

Unironically, Onslaught should be removed because they make so much weapon too good

[torn root]

idk about removed

[strange sparrow]

It eliminates almost all automatic weapon weakness

[torn root]

make it 1% per stack 🙂

[strange sparrow]

Which is Cara and Flak

People tend to balance C5 on the basis of Onslaught because Vet

[thick rose]

I would stop using autos if I couldn't reasonably kill carapace

[strange sparrow]

And that’s because C5 most glamours flaw against Cara was removed by onslaught

[torn root]

for me this is the only draw to the weapon

literally killing everything else kinda doesnt matter for ranged weapons

[thick rose]

it would mean I would have to run krak whihc sucks

[torn root]

would just move to boring plasma gun

[strange sparrow]

That’s fair, because currently Single fire weapon doesn’t get much talent point return investment imo

Like V7 and Hellbore don’t get as much return over talent investment against auto weapon rn

[dusty sluice]

should i grab this?

[strange sparrow]

Except you want to play in a niche play style like Sniper/long range Special killer

But auto weapon could also do that by tapping if they’re too far….

[torn root]

idk if vet was meant to only kill Specials and elites

lmao

i think that they were just meant to kill shit period

[strange sparrow]

I mean if you took V7 and Hellbore, people kinda expect you to engage in special kind of enemy

Ranged unit, and special

[median merlin]

that's the purpose why i bring a vraks 7

clicking on gunners/shooters/specials heads

[strange sparrow]

The other issue with V7 and Hellbore is they don’t get much suppression like C5

[dusty sluice]

two okish things from brunt today

[strange sparrow]

It’s so stupid lmao with C5

[median merlin]

don't need to with a oneshot/two shot

[strange sparrow]

You over suppress the gunner by shooting in general direction

So it kinda does what a V7 or Hellbore does in some manner

[thick rose]

I gotta get a good vraks, I have no experiance with them.

[torn root]

and 2 shotting elites/specials doesnt matter because the ttk is either the same or slower than the columnus

[strange sparrow]

Yeah, but even though you missed all your shot on C5, the gunner are too suppressed to counter fire

[torn root]

tbh the other guns need to be buffed so the feel like guns

idk most of them felt like ass to use

[thick rose]

I finally got a decent 1a lasgun and the recoil animation makes it too annoying to bother with IMO

[strange sparrow]

[median merlin]

i get less recoil on my vraks 7 then i do with my lasgun MG12

lmao

[thick rose]

even though it can do quite reasonable damage

[torn root]

because laser weaponry has to feel like an actual gun

🙂

[strange sparrow]

Single shot gun right now have no place in game

[median merlin]

uses single shot in damnation

[strange sparrow]

Because all automatic gun except braced could do it

[median merlin]

i beg to differ

[torn root]

just being rouge

[median merlin]

rouge or rogue?

[strange sparrow]

I use Hellbore in Auric

[thick rose]

REVOLVER FALCON PUNCH

[torn root]

yes

[strange sparrow]

it challenge you as a player to know the map

[torn root]

🙂

[strange sparrow]

Hear poxbuster and stuff

While auto weapon just

IMMA RUN IN AND IF MY TOUGHNESS GOES 0 = VOC

Literally I could turn my brain off now with auto weapon

Because everything I see = shoot them in the face

[torn root]

such good gameplay

because its the best feeling gun

fatshark has to work on the gun play more

[alpine nexus]

Space AK'S 🤤

[torn root]

bolter especially needs work

[strange sparrow]

Oh a crusher is approaching me, take an auto weapon and kill it in less than 3 seconds

[torn root]

YUP

[thick rose]

reckon just remove the racking animation every time it pulls out makes the bolter cool enoug hto be slightly undertuned ok

[torn root]

proper gameplay

20 BULLETS IS FAIR

if only it actually took that many

[strange sparrow]

That’s because onslaught is broken

[torn root]

i could probably still get a decent kill time without it

[strange sparrow]

With base rending not really

[torn root]

I lied

i lied hard

with mark its decent

but at base hell no

almost took the whole clip

[past knot]

How iron will and yellow toughness interact? Does yellow tough counted towards max 75% or its just blue one

[spice wadi]

it interacts with it

[muted knot]

I really want to see get a good agri IAG

But fucking brunt thinks mobility is something I really want

[spice wadi]

you have not sacrificed sufficient kidneys to the cause

[wild summit]

just me or is field improvisation one of the best keystones in the game?

[torn root]

total toughness counts towards the 75% so yes t works

bonus toughness stops a single hit from bleeding through in 1 hit

pretty busted

[past knot]

Well God damn
Thats kinda amazing

No wo der the extra 100 got downed to 5

50

[torn root]

it'll always leave you with 1 toughness

pretty fun

no corruption from pox bursters either

has to be at 100% toughness though

[umbral scaffold]

Me when I can tank a crusher overhead like a chad

[torn root]

sadly only vet and zealot get the benfit

well technically they give the whole team

but yeah

[umbral scaffold]

Ye I get you lol

[bitter turtle]

Agri iag has 1 cleave

[torn root]

even just the +20 on zealot works

[umbral scaffold]

I guess it's just funny seeing people talk about how vets are squishy

When they have on demand toughness overheal

And that refreshes when you kill anything dangerous

[merry gale]

https://tenor.com/view/wawa-cat-wawawa-meme-gif-25812133

[torn root]

vet is the tankiest class

no one can change my mind

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah it's the tankiest if you're playing well

[torn root]

up to 80% toughness dr

[umbral scaffold]

But lots of people take small chip

And when they do vet starts to fold

[torn root]

chip doesnt matter if you just kill dudes lmao

[umbral scaffold]

Yup

But it's the reddit opinion anyway

It's unreal how many people think they're squishy

Only thing I dislike about vet is psword dodge distance is kind of pathetic

[torn root]

VoC is legit the safest class in the game

crutch even

[umbral scaffold]

But you can always just be a shovel man

[bitter turtle]

I would still say it's squishy compared to ogryn and zealot

[umbral scaffold]

Shovel dodge distance is insane

[bitter turtle]

Ogryn is literally brain off

Zealot built right makes vet cd reduction look bad

[torn root]

didnt know i had to think while im wearing a yellow condom all game

the bonus toughness is dumb ngl

[bitter turtle]

I'm not saying vet bad

But u can clearly see if u turn on damage taken

Ogryn can literally just facetank like 5x the dmg and not care

Regularly

[merry gale]

yes

lore accurate

[torn root]

so then its just the same

lmao

[bitter turtle]

I'm not saying it's wrong to have them tanky

[umbral scaffold]

I think it's just the same in different ways

[bitter turtle]

But

[umbral scaffold]

Vet definitely has the potential to be the pseudo tankiest

[merry gale]

no you're right it's way too easy to survive with ogryn

[bitter turtle]

And zealot survivability with crit cd reduction is dumb

[umbral scaffold]

Especially if you only take small mistakes

[merry gale]

lot's of things are overtuned rn

[umbral scaffold]

Meanwhile zealots can go crazy and trade all day

[torn root]

zealot is diff too

[bitter turtle]

Like u literally can permastealth

[umbral scaffold]

And Ogryn with the right perks is just funny

[bitter turtle]

Almost

[merry gale]

like plasma

[torn root]

beefy yeah but i was a zealot main

and imma say vet feels beefier

[umbral scaffold]

I think it's funnier tho

When I saw someone say vet is squishier than psyker

[torn root]

50% tdr

for existing

[umbral scaffold]

Now that's just hilarious

[torn root]

im not getting past that

[bitter turtle]

Js it's fair to say vet is squishier side

If ur literally used to playing a class that can just facetank and win

At least u can be caught with your pants down on vet

And zealot mains can spam ability way more than vet can shout

So that is also another way to look at it

Not saying vet needs buff in this area cause shout is plenty strong

[umbral scaffold]

Shout is probably the best ult in the game imo

[torn root]

not probably

[bitter turtle]

Just other classes can get really dumb when I see like 3k dmg taken and they didn't go down once lol

[torn root]

its a 1 press cover all ability

[bitter turtle]

Eh

I think ctw is also really strong

And stealth on zealot is busted played correctly

Just most ppl dont

[torn root]

key word

played correctly

[bitter turtle]

Idk about ogryn abilities

Yes

But played correctly it is gamebreaking

[torn root]

there is no wrong way to play VoC tho

lmao

[placid portal]

Ogryn press button, Eretics die

Simple as

[bitter turtle]

I didn't know we were talking about easy to use

[umbral scaffold]

Reddit be like

save your voc

[bitter turtle]

I mentioned ctw which is also easy to use anyway

[umbral scaffold]

Could be ragers in the next 3 areas

[placid portal]

Using it for youself or pop it too early making little to no benefits

[bitter turtle]

Very similar to shout

But also downgrades armor type

Less defensive

[umbral scaffold]

VoC is easily overpowered

[bitter turtle]

But extra charge

[placid portal]

Agreed

[umbral scaffold]

Funny how they nerfed the overheal

[bitter turtle]

I think ctw is easily comparable

[torn root]

you can spam it as much as you want

[umbral scaffold]

And it's still yellow toughness 90% of the time

Specially on auric

[torn root]

because you get cd for every elite kill

[placid portal]

the cooldown buff was unexpected and tbh makes it busted

[torn root]

its even ot the point where other classes want the 12% crd\

[bitter turtle]

To begin with ppl called shout just ctw for vet anyway lol

[torn root]

voc legit doesnt need it

[placid portal]

I thought it was every specialist

[bitter turtle]

It's specialist only

Not elite

[placid portal]

If you mean tac awareness

[merry gale]

one of the issue is that cdr often gets reduced when killing something and in auric they throw so much things to enable cdr at you

it's kinda free

[torn root]

either way that shit is off cd in all cases

[bitter turtle]

I think zealot crit cd is still better tbh

[torn root]

its the one ability you literally cant go wrong just for using

[placid portal]

Hunting Grounds = Ammo restock + Instant VoC refresh 30 times

[bitter turtle]

Just needs to be built for

[merry gale]

ofc it's better

[bitter turtle]

With crit

[merry gale]

you just need to crit

[bitter turtle]

Ya

[torn root]

zealot crit is nice

[placid portal]

Crits are fun

[umbral scaffold]

Ye but voc doesn't even need a build to prosper
Just need to get it down the line

[bitter turtle]

Nice is underselling it

[umbral scaffold]

Which is fun

[placid portal]

Someone should mod melee crits to make TF2 crit SFX

[torn root]

but as someone who has been playing it i still think VoC is dumb in comparison

[placid portal]

[bitter turtle]

U can literally be stealth more than u are not stealth

It's dumb

[merry gale]

bloothirsty eviscerator mkxv

enjoy free crit

[torn root]

you actually have to build for the zealot cd

[merry gale]

and free crusher 1 shot

[bitter turtle]

Ya but again

[umbral scaffold]

Not just that

[bitter turtle]

Are we talking about

Easy to use

Or strong

[umbral scaffold]

Need to play fantastic 24/7

[bitter turtle]

Cause these are two different things

[umbral scaffold]

Otherwise you're just legit throwing your team to the fire as well lol

[torn root]

im talking about which is the best

im firmly stating VoC

[bitter turtle]

Best at what though

[torn root]

ease of use, flexibility, freedom of item choices goes a long way

[bitter turtle]

Giving to a dumbass and having them succeed

[umbral scaffold]

At just being a solid ability that's always useful and never bad

[bitter turtle]

Giving to a good player and having them carry 3 dead weights

Etc

[umbral scaffold]

Is an easy way to describe it lol

[bitter turtle]

These are different situations

[umbral scaffold]

Even if you only use voc to benefit yourself

It's still fantastic

[torn root]

pretty sure VoC has been carrying mad braindead players

[bitter turtle]

In any case I think ctw and voc are both comparable

[torn root]

that's why you see it everywhere lmao

[umbral scaffold]

You instaregen your toughness, bowl everyone over, and it regens like crazy

[bitter turtle]

U see it everywhere

Because exec is dogshut

And vet stealth is under smokes

[umbral scaffold]

Ye that's another issue lol

VoC is not only fantastic

[barren cave]

just run massive shredder grenade spam on vet with voc and have a lovely walk through the underhive

[umbral scaffold]

Everything else is just kinda shit

[bitter turtle]

U would see vet stealth more if it was under surv lol

Instead of smoke

[umbral scaffold]

Where was that reddit guy

[torn root]

i would argue the stealth being under smoke mattered

but then there are ppl here tha defend smokes

so idk

dont think ppl care

[bitter turtle]

There's ppl that defend recon

[barren cave]

I cant defend smokes, ive nver used smoke grenade tbh

[torn root]

that too

[bitter turtle]

In reality infiltrate is a 4 point tax over voc

U can do a lot with 4 points

Ofc nobody takes it

Except ppl that really really love it

[torn root]

which makes it so good 🙂

flexibility

accessibility

[bitter turtle]

No it's just our other options are crippled by bad tree

[torn root]

yeah

[bitter turtle]

Ctw and shroudfield don't have this problem

[torn root]

which is not as good

🙂

[bitter turtle]

Ya but now ur saying voc is good because our other options are shit or taxed lol

[torn root]

well CTW still has its own tax

its just not all on the tree

[merry gale]

i mean right tree zealot has you taking a detour to avoid the loner aura so

[torn root]

when you think about it

[bitter turtle]

Thats not very convincing as annargument for best skill in the game

[umbral scaffold]

Tbf that's part of it too

[torn root]

having to build around something IS a tax

[radiant linden]

Melee vet is fun tho

[placid portal]

Which melee vet dou?

[barren cave]

you can do melee vet with voc

[bitter turtle]

U can play melee vet with voc too so

[radiant linden]

Infiltration

[placid portal]

VoC just works

[radiant linden]

VoC is just boring

[bitter turtle]

Everyone just goes voc so they don't get punished by 4 pts

[torn root]

imma be honest

especially when it comes to meta talk

focused on whats the best

[placid portal]

but damn I do miss seeing what I'm shooting at with exe stance

[bitter turtle]

Even exec doesn't save u any points

[torn root]

ease of use, and flexibility will always be a factor

a good one

[bitter turtle]

Since you have to take extra shit

For subnodes

And demo stockpile

[placid portal]

2 points minimum

[bitter turtle]

All our other options are cursed

[placid portal]

agreed

[bitter turtle]

If they weren't

Imo

Voc isn't any better than ctw

[torn root]

they cursed so in the eyes of the community

[bitter turtle]

Esp since ctw has 2 charge

[torn root]

they aren't as good

[bitter turtle]

For free

[torn root]

well not free

[bitter turtle]

No dumb extra cd penalty

[placid portal]

You can highlight ogryns But it don't give damage bonus

[bitter turtle]

Free as in u don't get penalized

[placid portal]

[bitter turtle]

Like infiltrate does

[merry gale]

worst crime in vet tree is twin blast

why is that still a thing

[torn root]

if you ever take that shit ill shoot you in the foot myself

[bitter turtle]

Why is a lot of shit still a thing lol

[placid portal]

[bitter turtle]

Why are smokes still a thing

[trim hemlock]

Because memes

[barren cave]

they should bake some of exec stance's subnodes into the skill

[torn root]

been saying remove them

[bitter turtle]

Why is survivalist not a passive yet

[placid portal]

If I do, you have to put me down

[trim hemlock]

But it's probably because it was designed this way

[torn root]

been said if they replaced smokes with an actual good grenade you'd probably see less shredders

[bitter turtle]

But yeah

[trim hemlock]

and it will stay that way until the end of time, because no designer will ever go back to it

[merry gale]

you could argue in favor of a lot of stuff but twin blast is just irredeemable

[bitter turtle]

100 percent

[torn root]

maybe even less VoC

[bitter turtle]

I would take infiltrate over voc

If it was in a less fucked place

[spring rose]

HAMMER OF THE EMPEROR!!!!!!

[bitter turtle]

Not even for fun

[spring rose]

PUT YOUR KARKING BOOTS IN!!!!

[bitter turtle]

I actually think it's competitive

[placid portal]

TIME TO EARN OUR PAY

[torn root]

bunch of stuff on vet tree needs to be culled

[bitter turtle]

Just u literally get fucked by 4 pts

[placid portal]

which is only 22k ordos

[bitter turtle]

For taking it atm

[strange sparrow]

I would take infiltrate if enemy would stop body blocking you

[trim hemlock]

If twinned blast was "one in three" or "one in four", but not random, just ever Xth grenade is a double grenade, it might have been somewhat appealing for either enhanced burst or enhanced area control

[spring rose]

Hehe nurgle blessed heretics fall when I yell hehe

[torn root]

+50% radius, Giving allies 15% of the toughness i gain [it's still shit idc], smokes

i can name a few more

lmao

[bitter turtle]

I want twinned blast to work on ur last grenade in your clip

But people tell me thats

[trim hemlock]

But I suppose FS doesn't want players to suddenly have a Krak grenade that removes half of a boss' HP bar

[torn root]

+50% suppression dealt?!?!!?

[bitter turtle]

"Broken"

[torn root]

like who tf put that there?

[bitter turtle]

Or something

I say

[merry gale]

aslong as i can clear auric maelstrom with any path we haven't hit rock bttm

[bitter turtle]

Let my nade dreams come true

[strange sparrow]

I mean double grenade Crit isn’t broken in all cases

[torn root]

last grenade would be abusable

[bitter turtle]

That's the point

[strange sparrow]

Until you took Tinkerer

[bitter turtle]

You chuck grenades constantly

So ur always playing around 1 grenade in clip

Grenadier build

[torn root]

but you can do that already lmao

[bitter turtle]

I want it to be even better

[merry gale]

besides double krak grenade on monstros

[umbral scaffold]

Chadnades

[barren cave]

shredder spam with voc is real

[torn root]

nah

[merry gale]

it wouldn't even do that much tbh

[torn root]

its a sword and gun game

[bitter turtle]

You'd be better off just saving 3 grenades

[spring rose]

Shredder go brrr

[strange sparrow]

Yeah that’s the thing

[spring rose]

Hehe bleed

[bitter turtle]

Than throwing a singular twinned lol

[merry gale]

like double frag to stagger even more ?

[bitter turtle]

Ud get 4 grenade with my twinned with 3 saved

[merry gale]

no point really

[strange sparrow]

You need double frags to do damage

[bitter turtle]

See

Balans

[torn root]

some of the values need tweaking tho

[bitter turtle]

It's balanced

[placid portal]

Hehe Crushers doing the Petah Knockdown

[torn root]

100%

[bitter turtle]

I promise

[strange sparrow]

Else the bleed stack are too low

[bitter turtle]

Twinned blast on last grenade

[placid portal]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-peter-griffin-dead-death-pose-falling-off-the-stairs-gif-12021772962162421355

[torn root]

competetive urge especially need tweek

[bitter turtle]

Recon with bayonet

[spring rose]

You can also take hammerblow blessed weapon and you can clear gunners with one shredder since somehow that blessing also works with shredder

[bitter turtle]

I'm just full of good ideas

[torn root]

2.5% is ass

[placid portal]

Crushers when you toss a Shredder

[merry gale]

it already kills what it's supposed to

[barren cave]

competitive urge is lameee

[torn root]

by the time it procs the wave is dead

you can get it to proc in auric consistently

[placid portal]

or up when you don't know it

[bitter turtle]

Comp urge was OK when it was competing against born leader

[torn root]

but when it happens there is like 2 dudes left

[strange sparrow]

Competitive urge kind of stuff work on Psyker meanwhile

[umbral scaffold]

Crushers when you throw a shredder be like
I've fallen and can't get up oh no

[torn root]

takes on average 40 frigin kills to proc

[strange sparrow]

Because how long the stack is for Siphon war on Psyker

[umbral scaffold]

It's pretty much why I just get the bleed nades 24/7

[torn root]

thats legit ass

[placid portal]

25 seconds

[strange sparrow]

It was like 20 seconds per stack and 6 max stack

[torn root]

and worse

[umbral scaffold]

Krak is cool
But knocking crushers over and making space?
Priceless

[torn root]

your teammate have to get 40 kills on average

you arent part of the equation

who tf thought that was a good idea?

[placid portal]

When you kill a crusher with a Krak, 3 more take its place

[strange sparrow]

Filter talent

Not all talent is created equally

[torn root]

fr...

[bitter turtle]

Put comp urge where bonus suppression is

[strange sparrow]

-20% sprint cost

[umbral scaffold]

Right? lol

[strange sparrow]

[torn root]

would eveb call it bait

[umbral scaffold]

It's pretty much why I put away the revolver

[bitter turtle]

Now it's good again

[torn root]

DON'T GET ME STARTED

[placid portal]

This is a fucking travesty

[umbral scaffold]

And just went cringe plasma+ shredder

[torn root]

I REMEMBER SEEING SPRINT COST REDUCTION and i almost didnt lvl Vet

[strange sparrow]

Not all talent is created equally

[torn root]

like actually

[placid portal]

honestly if it wasn't for that I'd say, "Man out for blood and tac reload is a good choice"

[strange sparrow]

[umbral scaffold]

Way more consistency since I don't spam ammo in hordes anyway

[torn root]

I saw that shit and was about to call the class ass

[umbral scaffold]

And the pull out isn't even bad compared to the bolter

[bitter turtle]

Remember when exploit weakness was in that part of the tree

And when it was just onslaught

[placid portal]

Now it's at the bottom tree

[bitter turtle]

😔

[umbral scaffold]

Bolter be like
👨‍🦼

[bitter turtle]

And shit

[strange sparrow]

Look

Born leader is still a thing

[bitter turtle]

Like I said

[strange sparrow]

3 toughness for my team

[placid portal]

[torn root]

opening salvo

[bitter turtle]

Put comp.urge where suppression increase us

Comp urge was good

[torn root]

i still think Opening Salvo is ass too

[bitter turtle]

When it competed against born leader

[umbral scaffold]

I wonder if you can solo a whole auric Maelstrom

[spring rose]

Did they nerf Columbus wasn't able to play the game for 2 weeks

[placid portal]

At least that's like 3% less damage taken for teammates if they don't have 100% toughness

[bitter turtle]

It's just gun specific

[spring rose]

Since 26th

[bitter turtle]

Good on helbore and shotgun and shit like that

[strange sparrow]

[torn root]

no one is gunna persuade me the top 10% of my ammo getting 10% crit is worth taking on ANY build im sorry

[bitter turtle]

Uh

Helbore and shotgun

[torn root]

that 10% is less effective than just getting more damage

[placid portal]

Nah just shotguns

[torn root]

10% crit does less than 5% damage

[spring rose]

Epic

[bitter turtle]

It's always active on shotgun bc who shoots shotgun normal ammo

[strange sparrow]

Kill zone unironically is good despite situational

[torn root]

actually its the same

[placid portal]

Shotguns can make it work 100% of the time vs Helbore

[umbral scaffold]

But it sounds funnier

[bitter turtle]

And hellbore u benefit most of the time

Bc memetrooper

[strange sparrow]

The innate CD still hurt

[placid portal]

agreed

how long dout?

[torn root]

10% crit is only the same as 5% damage if the weapon crit is a 2x modifyer

ppl not ready to do the math on that

[bitter turtle]

Crit has innate rending

[placid portal]

Just for manstopper + Flechette

[bitter turtle]

So it's gud

[torn root]

on 10% of the enemies

because rending

.>

[bitter turtle]

Who cares

[strange sparrow]

No idea but I charged my Hellbore for 3 seconds surgical and it didn’t refund me my bullet

[torn root]

im just dealing in math here

[bitter turtle]

Do you really care that u do more or less.dmg to a poxwalker

[strange sparrow]

[bitter turtle]

They die anyway

[torn root]

5% a majority vs some effectiveness against 1 enemy

[umbral scaffold]

But big number better than small number

[torn root]

you are just better off taking something else unless stuck in the unfortunate position where its the only choice for extra damage

[bitter turtle]

I mean it's the 1 enemy u don't already oneshot and indirectly increases ur ammo efficiency @ helbore

And shotgun is just always active

I usually take it on those 2 at least

[strange sparrow]

Unironically, not god roll Hellbore can’t one shot head some of the enemy without KZ or focus target

For example dreg gunner in my game doesn’t get one tap if I don’t take KZ or Unarmored +25%

[torn root]

ppl like roulettes i guess, not me

[bitter turtle]

Dreg gunner is just the exception of annoying ass enemies

[placid portal]

Shotgun be like
Opening Shot + Dead Shot + 5% Crit + 5% Crit passive + 5% crit perk
10% + 25% + 15% = 50% crit on ADS and First shot

[bitter turtle]

I take unarmoered on v7 for him too

Hard to hit dmg breakpoint to one-shot otherwise

[strange sparrow]

KZ 15% damage aura helped Hellbore reach that breakpoint easier

Without it I need to run Unarmored

[torn root]

and the sad part is

[bitter turtle]

U play hellbore as a ranged wep

I play it as a spear with a gun attached

[torn root]

swap 10% crit for 10% damage and it would be more effective

🙂

[bitter turtle]

So kz is just not gonna proc lol

For me

[placid portal]

Right Weapon Specialist

[bitter turtle]

Meanwhile I want all the upfront crit I can get

Since I can't hold surg that long in melee combat

[placid portal]

Unless you use Mk3

[torn root]

crit is for ppl who like to gamble

[strange sparrow]

Just saying that 10% Crit ammo is not that great in my book too because ShockTropper innate cd

[bitter turtle]

Mk3 is smelly