veteran-class

[white minnow]

it's a coherency-wide ammo regen that procs on kills of you and allies in coherency

it is absolutely ridiculous

[umbral scaffold]

Survivalist has a tangible effect each time I'm in a match with one, and it saves the team a lot of ammo

[obtuse raft]

Survivalist singlehandedly carries my entire ammo consumption for vet on most guns I use

[white minnow]

i don't mind ammo regen as a concept

but it shouldn't be team-wide, at the bare minimujm

[orchid musk]

Usually one wave at a time.

[white minnow]

it should be strictly personal

[torn root]

iight lets see whats the average ammo pool of the Plasma

easy to do the mat here

[raw steppe]

I'm okay with it being nerfed to like "Allies in coherency who get weakspot elite kills get ammo refund"

rather than all kills and all teammates

[torn root]

okay 75-150

[raw steppe]

it's 265~ fyi

[white minnow]

i mean sure, plasma gets a roughly halved benefit from survivalist, but that's one gun and plasma is still plasma

[umbral scaffold]

Picture it this way: without survivalist, ammo is something that you

• have to get yourself
• getting it yourself means the other person can't get that ammo pickup
• the pickups are limited exclusively by map progression

[white minnow]

yeah, survivalist scaling with difficulty and modifiers is also another banger

[torn root]

75+150 = 265 /2 would be the average

[raw steppe]

idk why you're doing math man

[umbral scaffold]

Now with survivalist

• ammo isn't limited by map progression
• people don't have to work who gets the ammo
• people don't need to push through the map to scour for more ammo if they can just stand still for a bit and kill specials

[raw steppe]

you can literally see

can much ammo you get back

[torn root]

lets say 133

[raw steppe]

from killing shit

[torn root]

each uncharged shot uses how much ammo?

[white minnow]

3

[raw steppe]

let's say I kill 80 elites and 100 specials

[torn root]

3

k

[raw steppe]

in a game

and my teammates kill about 150~ each

[torn root]

133 divided my 3 lets say 44

44 shots

every kill for a special gives you 1 shot

assuming you are 1 tapping everything, not even gunna count crushers and monsters

[umbral scaffold]

Yep, a lot of ammo back

[torn root]

you get back 14.6 shots

[raw steppe]

and assuming only ~130 of the teammate kills end up being in coherency

[torn root]

so lets say 15

[raw steppe]

that's 3 x 130 + 180

ammo refunds

[white minnow]

consider this game

[torn root]

when we take outside variables into account survivalist really doesnt mean shit

you can always find ammo

[umbral scaffold]

A decent plasma build will one-tap every elite besides a mauler and ogryns and every special besides a mutant

[raw steppe]

wot

[torn root]

so lets not go there

[white minnow]

this adds up to 282 special/elite kills

[raw steppe]

lul

[white minnow]

so, that's potentially 282% reserve ammo gained from survivalist, to each player

of course, that's the ideal case

[umbral scaffold]

Survivalist is about the outside variables

[white minnow]

but that's still a ridiculous amount, no?

[umbral scaffold]

And these outside variables are constant in matches

You're always killing elites and specials

[raw steppe]

how is your teammates activating the aura an outside variable

you AND your teammates

are all giving ammo

LOL

[umbral scaffold]

If it was something like "oh, you need to headshot a monstrosity" then yeah, it's incredibly niche

But elites and specialist kills is as variable as killing poxwalkers

[ebon umbra]

this is like an SAT question

[white minnow]

and even for me, I got guaranteed 113% reserve ammo from survivalist

which, mind you, is still fucking good

and this is something that scales off of elite/special density

[torn root]

what are thos a-d variables?

shots?

[white minnow]

each player

player A is me, player B/C/D are teammates

I just split it up cuz it's easier to type it correctly

[umbral scaffold]

Each free shot you take is a shot that keeps you away from an ammo pickup that can go to someone else

Or, worst case scenario, an ammo pickup that doesn't show up at all

[torn root]

yall are saying its broken enough for the ammo pick up to not matter

lmao

like actually

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah

[raw steppe]

yeah

lmao

[umbral scaffold]

It literally is

[torn root]

so why even bring it up?

[raw steppe]

what difficulty do you play on?

[white minnow]

i didn't say that it didn't matter

[umbral scaffold]

The math is there, the practical application is there

[white minnow]

but it sufficiently messes up the ammo economy to make balancing a nightmare

[raw steppe]

a5 histg there's enough elites/specials that it completely fucks the ammo economy

[torn root]

literally sitting in auric most of the games yall make it seem like you can stay on your gun 100% of the match on plasma gun

you cant

[raw steppe]

i'm sure it matters less in like heresy

[torn root]

maybe on columnus

[umbral scaffold]

It's not "you literally never pick up ammo", but the constant passive regen that doesn't even need to be triggered by the aura's owner is bullshit

[torn root]

but not on plasma

[raw steppe]

nice straw man LOL

nobody said that

why dont you try playing a game without survivalist

and see how much of a difference there is

[torn root]

never said anybody said it

but nice straw man

[slow spade]

Helbore Shock Trooper players 💪💪💪

[umbral scaffold]

Imagine if beacon of purity cleansed corruption per poxwalker killed

[torn root]

you make it seem like and you said isnt the same thing

[raw steppe]

jesus christ fuck off mate

[umbral scaffold]

Oh, but beacon of corruption at least is limited by wounds

But imagine if it wasn't

[white minnow]

if you're going to police my words, i'd hope you stay to the same level of rigor

[pliant heron]

evening comrades quik question: shotgun shotguns standart with an Buckshot or slugs or are there different kinds

[umbral scaffold]

Imagine for a moment we lived in a world where people could passively get rid of corruption by just killing enemies and remove a whole health bar of it

[torn root]

I'll accept that one but that;s not what what he was saying AND someone said yes to this

literally

[umbral scaffold]

That's survivalist

You counter great part of a game mechanic by doing basic game stuff

[torn root]

Kuro XIII — Today at 1:55 PM
yall are saying its broken enough for the ammo pick up to not matter
lmao
like actually
manurit<br>Mankato<br>Mankato — Today at 1:55 PM
Yeah
Dis — Today at 1:56 PM
yeah
lmao

[umbral scaffold]

You get rewarded for playing the game as intended

[torn root]

should copy paste the whole convo

[white minnow]

their default shots are always a buckshot/pellet shot, but their special shot is different between the three

[obtuse raft]

All shotguns are buckshot by default but the special loads a alternate shell for each

[white minnow]

but also, yes, I actually do agree that you can go a game without picking up ammo and just living off of survivalist and saving ammo for specialists/elites/bosses

[obtuse raft]

Agri gets slugs, kantrel gets fire, lawbringer gets a duckbill style high cleave shell

[umbral scaffold]

The amount of ammo you can get from this one

[torn root]

failing to see the straw man, when someone is literally agreeing to what im questioning

[white minnow]

*depending on the gun, and ignoring shock trooper interactions and the ammo efficient guns

[umbral scaffold]

or this one

or this one

[slow spade]

Fan revolver hordeclear time 💪

[umbral scaffold]

"but Sterling, that's STG"

then just a basic HI

[white minnow]

and i have done monstrosity maelstroms without ever picking up ammo

[torn root]

well this is obvious but its probably not going to be a game where you have your gun out 100% of the time unless its specific weapons

[white minnow]

by living off of survivalist purely

[torn root]

i dont think that's a problem

the game has a shooter focus just as much as it has a melee one

[white minnow]

it's a problem when a single class can dictate the teamwide ammo economy of a game

[torn root]

this is NOT Vermintide

[white minnow]

i never played vermintide

i've only played l4d2 and darktide

in terms of the horde genre

so I think I know a bit about having a gun focus

[torn root]

an aura that lets you shoot more in a game that wants you to is not an issue

[white minnow]

yes

i explicitly said that ammo regen is not the issue

[serene sage]

Survivalist is lop-sided as hell but I don't think it should be changed

[white minnow]

but the fact that it's TEAM WIDE

[torn root]

still not an issue

[white minnow]

absolutely an issue

[serene sage]

I can acknowledge that it's a little centralizing but that's okay tbh

[torn root]

EVEN IF ITS TEAM WIDE

[fierce steeple]

its 1%. it used to be 3

[torn root]

okay you know whatr

IF THE GAME WANTS YOU TO SHOOT

WHY IS GIVING AMMO TO THE ENTIRE TEAM AN ISSUE?!

explain why

in a way that makes sense

[white minnow]

because the game can also just balance out the economy in other ways

[torn root]

THEY WANT YOU TO SHOOT

[white minnow]

like increasing ammo pickups once we nerf survivalist

[torn root]

EXPLAIN HOW

[white minnow]

by buffing it?

[torn root]

DONT JUST DROP A BLANKET STATEMENT

HOW

[white minnow]

the developers can just increase the ammo pickup spawns

[torn root]

HOW BUFF IT

[white minnow]

what blanket statement

[torn root]

WHY DOES IT NEED A BUFF?

[white minnow]

well, you want people to shoot more right?

[torn root]

what MAKES it need a buff?

[white minnow]

my point is to distribute the ammo economy

[serene sage]

is ammo pick up a problem? I think teams without vets can still clear an area reliably?

[white minnow]

away from vets

[torn root]

YES AND THEY ALLOW THEM TO

[white minnow]

and to just make it agnostic

[strange sparrow]

I mean

[white minnow]

not really

[strange sparrow]

Make other 2 aura more useful

[serene sage]

like is ammo pickup a problem that needs solving to begin with
before we butcher survivalist for a made up problem

[white minnow]

but i do think that we should get more ammo without needing a vet on average

[strange sparrow]

+5% ms and +5% damage

[white minnow]

it's not a "problem" per se

but I do think that having ammo is nice

[torn root]

See that is an okay statement

[umbral scaffold]

Ammo pickups are rarely a problem in games, it's just that people get used to having the best conditions possible and take that as the new baseline

[torn root]

they are arguing just nerf instead

[white minnow]

and not having it tied to a vet would be very nice

[torn root]

with a shit point

[serene sage]

so we should nerf an aura to solve a thing that doesn't need solving

[white minnow]

well, I proposed a nerf and a compensating buff

[torn root]

okay so maybe not you

[strange sparrow]

I mean Vet Survivalist Aura did make the team unlimited ammo gamin

[torn root]

but nerfing it is a shit idea

[strange sparrow]

but why is that a bad thing thou

[torn root]

survivalist legit is not problematic

[strange sparrow]

You get punished for not playing melee anyways

[white minnow]

because it makes it tied to the presence of a specific class

[torn root]

the other 2 auras being shit is

[serene sage]

I mean I play zealots and ogryns and psykers too and I don't think of ammo much as long as the team SHARES

[white minnow]

what if it's a game with only zealot/ogryn/psyker

or a non-survivalist vet

[serene sage]

now sharing is a player problem

not a vet problem

[strange sparrow]

I think that's the point thou

[umbral scaffold]

It's the classic debate between a pony, a normal horse and a shire horse

[white minnow]

it's a bad point

[torn root]

and i still don't see an issue with it, this isn't vermintide they want you to shoot

[white minnow]

and messes up the economy

[serene sage]

then we still win them games not like without survivalist suddenly the game is unwinnable

[umbral scaffold]

Some people only ride on the shire horse, their survivalist aura

[torn root]

that was one of the quotes they made before the game came out

[white minnow]

my point isn't about winning/losing games

[torn root]

its more shooter focused than vermintide

[white minnow]

it's about the fun of having ammo to shoot

and not making it tied to the presence of a specific class using a specific aura

[umbral scaffold]

They look at the people who ride on the normal horse, the baseline game, and think they're the ones riding low and crippling the team

But the normal horse is, for all intents and purposes, the normal one

That's the horse horse

[midnight totem]

Fuck your ammo survivalist horse

[umbral scaffold]

But by drawing a relation between both, one is obviously larger

[strange sparrow]

I mean I get what you're saying but

[torn root]

apparently it is, survivalist is SO broken

[serene sage]

imma be real, for almost the entirety of patch 14 and 15, I run Fire Team to preserve talent points

[strange sparrow]

It doesn't really matter imo

[serene sage]

and I can still shoot as much as reasonable, the only difference is that I dip into the red occasionally

[white minnow]

because survivalist means that fatshark can't really buff map ammo pickups because they have to factor in the presence of a survivalist vet

[strange sparrow]

about ammo economy

[umbral scaffold]

So people get used to the tallest horse without considering the surrounding conditions for that horse's height and if they even need a horse of that size

[torn root]

classes bring shit to the table deal with it, if ammo is what it brings stop crying shoot more

[umbral scaffold]

Which they don't

[serene sage]

it changes nothing except your ammo indicator is slighly redder

[torn root]

ranger dwarf was the same in V2

[serene sage]

(you can still have emough to shoot

[torn root]

ammo and potions

no one cried

[umbral scaffold]

Everyone can ride a normal horse into the tide of dark (a darktide, if you will) and not die horribly

[white minnow]

is it crying to suggest balance changes

why are you hissy about this matter

[umbral scaffold]

But some want others to believe that only riding the shire horse is the viable way

[torn root]

they dont need to

[serene sage]

no, but it seems like making changes for a non-issue is kinda low priority

[midnight totem]

I used a lot more Bombs with a ranger dwarf around

[white minnow]

i do think it's a bit of an issue

[midnight totem]

Trivialized a lot of fights xD

[umbral scaffold]

And that Fatshark generously gave us a game where it's mandatory to waste points taking a detour for a specific aura

[white minnow]

it's low priority, but it's also not a horribly complex fix

[strange sparrow]

The only class that is penalised is probably gun psyker because they shoot alot

[umbral scaffold]

Because of course, it makes sense

[white minnow]

change up survivalist and buff map ammo pickups

[umbral scaffold]

They gave us a mandatory choice

Who wouldn't, right?

[serene sage]

well, without Survivalist I still shoot as much as I want (reasonably)
if you hose down hordes then survivalist won't save you still

[torn root]

y'all are advocating a shit change for a non-issue and not making it make sense to some of us ngl

[umbral scaffold]

Who wouldn't make a player choice tree without a mandatory choice?

[torn root]

its a non issue that doesnt need to be nerfed and there are several ppl asking for one

[umbral scaffold]

It's not a nonissue though, survivalist is one of the main causes of toxicity in this game

[serene sage]

it's not in fact 2 level 1000+ vets I know run fire team instead of survivalist

so yknow

[torn root]

its not mandatory

[umbral scaffold]

Exactly

[midnight totem]

I've seen at least one vet in auricular or high int damnation think otherwise

[umbral scaffold]

But people want to act like it is because it's the best aura

[pliant heron]

give us an MG-42

[white minnow]

it is certainly an issue that needs to be nerfed because it's tied to the presence of a specific class running a specific aura

[serene sage]

i have 600 hours in this game, not a single, not one, person told me to take survivalist

[umbral scaffold]

So you get people being toxic because "everyone has to take survivalist or they're crippling the team"

[midnight totem]

Actually he didn't ever run out of ammo either

[torn root]

best =/= mandatory

[serene sage]

and i play almost exclusively vets (except leveling the classes for shit and gigs)

[umbral scaffold]

Yes, I know, thank you

[torn root]

best =/= needs a nerf either

[umbral scaffold]

It needs a nerf though, and the reasoning has been explained

[pliant heron]

in your oppinion how often you encounter toxic players ?

[crisp oak]

Hey fellows, how do you guys enjoy the hellbore lasguns

[torn root]

yes the reasoning needs work

[pliant heron]

i mean i only have 120 so not 600 ^^

[serene sage]

honestly, every single game
it's me, im the toxic one
just kd, i would say about 1 in 20 games for toxic people
1 in 4 games would have someone who is clueless (not necessarily toxic)

[midnight totem]

Anyway, have you seen hound hordes with survivalist?

They're like moving ammo boxes

[torn root]

they had a foucus on ranged gameplay from the start, we knew this before the game ws even released to the [ublic

[white minnow]

i think the reasoning is fine, just that you disagree with it

[torn root]

the solution we got after update was more ammo

they want us to shoot but now we have too much ammo

[white minnow]

you still get plenty of ranged gameplay

[torn root]

im upset now because reasons

[umbral scaffold]

The game was marketed as hybrid combat, not ranged

[pliant heron]

imo im the only one who wants that the low lvl players picking up the grims or scripts for more boni exp / money

[white minnow]

i can have games where I have 90% ranged damage and 10% melee damage currently

(on non-psyker)

[torn root]

so pull your fucking sword out

problem solved

tf

[white minnow]

what do you mean

[white minnow]

what problem

[torn root]

let the ppl who want to shoot shoot

[umbral scaffold]

That...

Uh...

Yeah, I think that's completely missing the point

[torn root]

because you are upset other ppl are shooting doesnt mean fatshark has to stop them from doing so more frequently

[white minnow]

i think you are wrongfully ascribing an argument to me

[serene sage]

maybe a bit of a straw man but I specs into ranged vets, my killfeed is about 40% melee 60% ranged

[white minnow]

i'm not upset about other people shooting

[umbral scaffold]

No one is upset people are shooting

[serene sage]

that's enough hybrid to me

[white minnow]

i just don't like the fact that it's tied to the presence of a specific class in a lobby

[serene sage]

source: my match history

[white minnow]

you are the one putting words into my mouth

[umbral scaffold]

The problem is the aura passively solving a problem that the team should, by design, have

[white minnow]

if you were going to make a hissyfit about me using inexact wording in a prior conversation, at least stick to the same level of rigor here

[umbral scaffold]

The team is meant to manage ammo from map pickups

[serene sage]

what difficulty do you play and how often do you draw your melee?

[umbral scaffold]

Survivalist gives the entire team free ammo for just playing the game

[torn root]

cool

its neat

keep it that way

[umbral scaffold]

Auric damnation, pretty much of the mind that guns are backup weapons

[serene sage]

i spec middle and left tree and I draw my melee often to have the hybrid experience

[torn root]

we like to shoot and have ammo

[crisp oak]

Survivalist doesnt keep my bolter full on damnation.

[white minnow]

you can also shoot and have ammo

[pliant heron]

and still you have one max gifted one who thinks that burning true ammo in 5 min is ok

[white minnow]

just that it wouldn't be tied to survivalist anymore

but tied to a buffed ammo pickup pool

[torn root]

why cant they be main weapons

you go to fucking raid an outpost

[serene sage]

i go near neutral with the gun on AT5M

[torn root]

and expect to cut your wayt through thousands of dudes?

[umbral scaffold]

I'm not saying they can't? Many people play it like that, I guess

[crisp oak]

Tbf Im also a zealot

[white minnow]

you'll get to shoot the same amount, just that it's tied to ammo pickups and not survivalist

[torn root]

never join the military

[white minnow]

what is the problem then

[slow garden]

Survivalist is great and basically required for auric damnation play on veteran or gungryn

[serene sage]

then yeah makes sense

[white minnow]

and we also get to fix the problem of this weird aura balancing

[slow garden]

Doesnt need to be changed. The other auras need a buff.

[umbral scaffold]

I have done military service, but thank you

[torn root]

dudes are part of a military org, my main weapon is this trusty knife, not the fucking gun at hand

dumb

[serene sage]

ignore survivalist for a second
fire team is on par with almost any other aura in the game

they don't need buffs

[umbral scaffold]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the worst case scenario of humanity 40 thousand years in the future is comparable to 2023

[slow garden]

5% damage hits no important breakpoints

It is a dead aura

[torn root]

guy is all the way over there

[serene sage]

neither is 10% heavy melee

[torn root]

but my knife is what i choose to use

[slow garden]

And barely comes into play on a monster fight

[wanton dawn]

Whats happening here

[torn root]

not my gun

[serene sage]

or 4% crit chance

or corrption cleanse

[ebon umbra]

chat tried math. it was hard so

[torn root]

guy gets close but i can still use my gun that can just kill him

[fierce steeple]

internet anger

[umbral scaffold]

Sounds like a personal problem derived from a severe misunderstanding of the game then

[ebon umbra]

[torn root]

nah knife it up

[slow garden]

the 10% heavy attacks can actually help Ogryn hit some melee breakpoints with certain melee weapons

[torn root]

no

[wanton dawn]

Oh god

[torn root]

you misunderstand the game

[slow garden]

It's niche

[torn root]

lmao

[slow garden]

But at least it does -something

[torn root]

who tf sees a gun and calls it the back up weapon

[serene sage]

then 5% damage can help virtually every weapons that needs long shot for breakpoints

[white minnow]

suppose that survivalist gets nerfed/removed, but ammo pickups are buffed.
You get to shoot the same amount, we balance out the auras once we shoot survivalist in the kneecaps, and we remove the teamwide effect that the presence of a survivalist vet in a lobby has on the ammo economy

[serene sage]

which I can name at least 2 off top my head

[crisp oak]

Juat make the move speed 20% make everyone speed

[white minnow]

that's the argument and my reasoning, and I'd say those are good reasons

[umbral scaffold]

I do, I personally play it like that because I used to play Vermintide and we are currently playing a game where you can crouch or sprint diagonally to make a dude completely unable to hit you

This is not real life

[torn root]

suppose they dont touch survivalist and just increase ammo econoy

[umbral scaffold]

In real life any twat who tries to slide towards a machinegun dies in 2 shots

[wanton dawn]

The 5% aura allow you to reach nobuff dreg bruiser os on rashad without flak perk

[torn root]

like you dont need to touch survivalist and touch ammo econ

[white minnow]

the ammo economy in this game is already pretty good

[slow garden]

Personally if they just added 0.75% ammo pickup to the other 2 auras, that would balance them

[torn root]

touch the fucking ammo and the aura loses some power

[raw steppe]

Then the game slides into even more powercreep

Lovely

[old quail]

the problem isn't the ammo economy itself, it's the vastly disproportionate effect 1 aura has on it

[white minnow]

well sure, but my premise is that survivalist does need to be touched, so we should make buffs elsewhere

[slow garden]

Ammo economy good? Not when I'm on my vet playing with a gungryn

[torn root]

the more ammo you have the less reason to need survivalist

[raw steppe]

Wot

Lol

[umbral scaffold]

I treat my gun as a backup weapon because it's more fun to play melee and because the game supports me playing melee

[white minnow]

because my point is that it's tied to a single class and a particular aura of theirs

[raw steppe]

Thats like saying rich ppl dont need money

[white minnow]

I don't want to mess with the ammo economy as a whole

[slow garden]

If Survivalist was just base game mechanic and they changed the aura I'd be fine

[umbral scaffold]

It's almost like people have to still be accurate and try to go for headshots

[wanton dawn]

Are we saying survivalist op ?

[white minnow]

I only want to remove survivalist, and without nerfing the ammo economy as a whole

[slow garden]

I'm very concerned about nerfing it or removing it without compensation though

[old quail]

you don't really need a survivalist vet to shoot plenty in a mission and win (depending on if you have two rumbler ogryns and a bolter vet), but having one is a big difference between literally just shooting whenever you feel like it and having to somewhat sensibly using a gun

i think the problem is some ammo economies are really bad, which is more of a pre-13/14 problem but it still exists for certain weapons

[torn root]

I said that and the dark elf is still rantting about nerfing it

[umbral scaffold]

God, I hate using guns sensibly, I just want to spray poxwalker hordes every single time they show up

[slow garden]

I do not at all fancy being unable to use my ranged weapon on my veteran builds, because the Gungryn keeps taking the ammo

[serene sage]

last time I check there is only ONE (1) aura that buffs move speed
ONE (1) aura that buffs crit chance
ONE (1) aura that gives heavy melee damage
truly those aura disproportionately effects the game because they are the only thing that have em

[white minnow]

yeah, which is why i'm proposing buffs to the ammo pickups

[torn root]

literally one of my 1st messages on the topic was buff the other auras

[old quail]

are you... a human? what is this

[slow garden]

I still concern about Gungryn stealing all the ammo

[white minnow]

but I disagree with buffing other auras

[old quail]

like these aren't even comparable what are you talking about lmfao

[slow garden]

I already struggle with that issue on my auric damn runs on my Vet

[white minnow]

auras are just fucked and I don't want to ever touch them

teamwide benefits can just go fuck themselves

[slow garden]

That is a weird af take

Its a team game bruh

[torn root]

why?

[serene sage]

having exclusive access to something doesn't mean it's good just by that standard alone

[torn root]

why NOT buff other auras

[old quail]

like if survivalist was 5% extra reserve ammo for your whole team nobody would care

[white minnow]

because that's going to raise the power level of everyone

[old quail]

but that isn't what i said

at all

[white minnow]

and then fatshark has to buff the enemies again

[torn root]

5% movespeed is cutting it for you?

5% damage?

really cutting it?

[old quail]

i explicitly elaborated that the difference survivalist makes for a key game system is way bigger than any other aura

[white minnow]

not really cutting it

[slow garden]

The entire game is already built with that in mind, Arcotash

[old quail]

you can read the message, it's not paywalled

[serene sage]

comparatively fire team is fine

[wanton dawn]

5% dmg aura is good though

[umbral scaffold]

Ammo economy is much different than movement speed or crit chance

[slow garden]

fire team, ew

[white minnow]

my point is that if they make strict buffs to players, they're also probably going to need to buff enemies

[raw steppe]

I actually dont mind an aura giving infinite ammo if it was a more conditional base, just thatthe current state is infiiite ammo unconditionally

[white minnow]

and they already buff enemies once in response to the player's powercreep

[old quail]

fire team is better than both an ogryn and psyker aura outright

[white minnow]

like it gets into this balancing nightmare

[old quail]

which is funny

because people call it bad

[white minnow]

and the point is to prevent a cascading balancing effect

[slow garden]

Because it is

[white minnow]

make a set of balance changes that you can surgically insert without having to make buffs and nerfs in unrelated areas to compensate

[raw steppe]

like if the ammo aura ONLY gave the person who killed the elite ammo, and ONLY gave ammo on weakspot kills I think it'd be perfectly fine

but rn

[crude ermine]

You're bald

[raw steppe]

it just gives everyone infinite ammo

[crude ermine]

Oh you said bad nvm

[old quail]

i have quite a lot of hair on my head

actually

[raw steppe]

how bout ur dad

[crude ermine]

I got owned

[wanton dawn]

Sounds like copium

[old quail]

what i want is vet to have unique ammo regeneration talents tied to each keystone

[white minnow]

so true

[old quail]

because i think that'd be interesting

[slow garden]

Idk about infinite, if your not melee vet, you use ammo all the time

[midnight totem]

It's okay, they can buff enemies by adding new ones. Like enhanced ragers... with four arms, chitinous carapace plating... lets call them genestealers

[old quail]

there's a couple ammo regen methods i think in vt2 that could be cool to bring over for vet

[slow garden]

Fast carapace ragers sounds horrifying

[torn root]

that would cause divergent gameplay

like actually

[serene sage]

so far all I can think is people proposing big changes for a "problem" that most people won't consider a problem

[old quail]

i have literally no problem with spending most of the game shooting - that's fun - what isn't fun is people feeling pigeonholed into taking survivalist because "it's the only good vet aura"

[torn root]

this

because its not a problem

[slow garden]

Just buff the other 2 aura's to have 0.75% ammo return

done

[wanton dawn]

Survivalist is too game wrapping an aura, thats a fact

[white minnow]

it surely is a problem that the ammo economy can be significantly affected by the presence of a single class and their particular aura

why not smooth things over

[old quail]

imagine if zealot had an aura that provided health per elite/special kill

it would literally be the same problem

[torn root]

consumers will complain about not having shit after getting shit, because its all they ever do

we got a good thing

[umbral scaffold]

Holy shit, time time to get the waystalker aura here and make it heal to 100%

[torn root]

its too good

take it away

[old quail]

and you'd have the same exact issue that people want to keep it because they don't personally think it's problematic

[white minnow]

yeah, and we can accordingly buff the ammo economy elsewhere once survivalist gets shot in the knees

[slow garden]

Just make survivalist baseline gameplay for all classes everywhere

[raw steppe]

I mean it's the same thing with every overpowered shit LOL

[serene sage]

is it? i ran fire team vet for patch 14 and 15 when the talent points were tight and i can still shoot a lot tbh

[slow garden]

Fixes the problem

[umbral scaffold]

Damn, almost like some people play the game for the challenge and build variety

[raw steppe]

remember there were ppl who were arguing that pinning fire and slaughterer were fine

and didn't need nerfs

back when it was 100% and 75% respectively

[old quail]

but that's not the point being made. it's that everyone on your team has a huge difference in ammo economy if you have survivalist vs if you don't

[serene sage]

damn almost like you can still do all that
not like someone locking in surv means you can't pull your melee out anymore

[old quail]

i can spend an entire zealot game just shooting if i get to the ammo boxes first

that doesn't mean everyone else is

[wanton dawn]

Imo ammo regen should be vet only

[old quail]

because im taking all the fucking ammo

[white minnow]

sure, but challenge aside, i don't want the freedom to unload ammo in a game being tied to the presence of a survivalist vet

i want to unload my ammo all the time, in all games, regardless of whether a survivalist vet exists

[spark helm]

Don't remember them atm but the biggest one really is just centered in survivalist. you had stuff that'd refund ammo for successful headshot kills and all that and then some characters being able to just refund themselves ammo by just waiting several seconds or some shit

[serene sage]

are you even human? what are you even talking about lmfao

[umbral scaffold]

I honestly don't know how to respond to that because it's on such a level of nonsense that I just can't process it

[terse idol]

I will say at the very least some guns are better for that

[slow garden]

Can we agree the best solution would be just to make Survivalist a baseline gameplay mechanic for all rejects?

[terse idol]

Like lasguns

[white minnow]

no

[terse idol]

Can be run without survivalist

[slow garden]

And replace the aura with something else

[raw steppe]

no lol

wtf

[slow garden]

Why not?

[umbral scaffold]

Survivalist can be removed and the game will be fine without it

[terse idol]

Baseline survivalist or nothing

[slow garden]

I disagree

[terse idol]

Like

[umbral scaffold]

Give vet literally any other aura

[terse idol]

Having it as an aura is taking down every other aura

[torn root]

bitch if you want a challenge impose that shit on your self

[white minnow]

i don't want it to scale with elite/special density

[slow garden]

Gungryn's presence can literally make my gun veteran unplayable in a mission

[white minnow]

and not a team-wide effect, at that

[torn root]

don't try to ruin it for other lmao

[slow garden]

Because the slab keeps stealing all my damn ammo bags

[serene sage]

explain to me why survivalist existing prevents you from doing this

Damn, almost like some people play the game for the challenge and build variety

[ebon umbra]

based ngl

[slow garden]

Based yes, but incredibly annoying

[terse idol]

Its fine if it is

[slow garden]

And that is WITH Survivalist

Even if you buff ammo bags

[terse idol]

The issue is the game is more balanced for harder play

[white minnow]

not if it's a team-wide ammo regen

[slow garden]

There is gonna be that one fuckin gungryn player

[ebon umbra]

i have been there i just pray that they are power gaming

[midnight totem]

Remove survivalist as an aura would be the easiest method

[slow garden]

Who just w mouse 1 from auric start to finish

[umbral scaffold]

It has already been explained why survivalist is an issue, I'm not entertaining your voluntary illiteracy

[white minnow]

if you weren't here for the entirety, my proposed changes are to nerf survivalist and buff ammo pickups

[slow garden]

Its funny but buffing ammo bags is the wrong way to go

Just make Survivalist a baseline gameplay mechanic

Fixes everyones problem

[white minnow]

so that the ammo economy is not influenced by the presence of a survivalist vet

[slow garden]

Maybe nerf it slightly

[torn root]

I tried to pry a decent answer out of this one already

not gunna happen

[ebon umbra]

give ammo regen to ogryn

[serene sage]

sure, but it certainly doesn't chain you down to a certain build

[wanton dawn]

Man, ppl are festy today. Thats the 3rd argument i read today where ppl call each other name

[crisp oak]

Give zealot ammo for melee crits

[umbral scaffold]

We have given decent answers, but unfortunately they were made assuming the people being talked to weren't idiots

[crisp oak]

[spark helm]

I mean. You can just. not take it, run stuff meant to push you towards playing a certain way.

[umbral scaffold]

Which is an unfortunate mistake to make, but such is life

[midnight totem]

Everybody should have some sort of minor or major innate ammo regen imo

[torn root]

no, this is a game where when players see something good they MUST use it

[spark helm]

It's a loudly strong, safe choice. People seem to really be obsessed with being safe.

[crisp oak]

Melee kills on specialists refunding ammo could be nice (and maybe headshot kills)

[slow garden]

How else do we theoretically fix this 'problem'?

[midnight totem]

No, not innate

[terse idol]

No but again this the issue

[serene sage]

idk, assume that im 5, whatever, call me names, i am genuinely curious
why would survivalist stop you from experimenting with challenges and build variety?

[umbral scaffold]

By removing survivalist and keeping ammo economy tied to what it originally was meant to be

[terse idol]

Many talents are geared towards mass density

[slow garden]

'originally meant to be'

[terse idol]

Youncould balance survivalist by having it on a cooldown

[torn root]

you dont even work on the game

[white minnow]

and i hope they also get shot in the kneecaps

[torn root]

you dont know wtf it was meant to be

lmao

[ebon umbra]

make survivalist mid tree

[umbral scaffold]

Neither do you you fucking troglodyte

[ebon umbra]

[terse idol]

But things like competitive urge, survivalist, all better with density

[slow garden]

Lol

[torn root]

IM not claiming what it was supposed ot be tho

damned bot

[spark helm]

don't have games that are meant to have infinite balancing loops and dynamics and instead focus on rounding out the entirety of your system for minor tweaks in the future.

not me being facetious but that's just, "make another/play another game" at that rate

[torn root]

lmao

[slow garden]

Okay you just lost all credibility, I was legit listening to your opinions. Not after that one.

[terse idol]

Nobody knows what it was meant to be

We didn't even have a talent tree

At the start of the game

We had like a railroad

[ebon umbra]

ngl i havent even been reading much im just saying incendiary things to see what happens

[slow garden]

Uh, okay. Very serious answer.

[umbral scaffold]

It's clear that with the class variety in random matches, that the ammo economy is balanced around anyone picking anything and being tied to two things: the map and its pickups

[spark helm]

I was being serous.

But it's not helpful.

[slow garden]

I'm not sure what you're contributing here then

Like

I don't understand?

[terse idol]

Then you need to incentive people working as a teeeam

[slow garden]

... That is both Tide games

[umbral scaffold]

If calling a dog a dog makes me lose credibility, then you don't know how to read shit

[slow garden]

Maybe just be an adult

My dude

[umbral scaffold]

2+2 = 4 independent if I tell you to get fucked or not

[slow garden]

People are gonna be like that

Just ignore it and be nice

[umbral scaffold]

It doesn't make the math magically wrong

[terse idol]

Vermintide 2 did have ammo issues, you just had your bags and your infinite ammo boxes

[ebon umbra]

excuse me #veteran-class no cutthroat rp

[terse idol]

If someone picked up every ammo bag and we didn't have ammo boxes

[spark helm]

I'm jsut saying that games like this are going to have these constant delicate balancing acts where something like survivalist can end up just dislodging a whole bunch of other shit. So every time when something that sensitive changes player choices, more changes are needed to be around that fallout to compensate

[slow garden]

Thank god for ammo boxes

[terse idol]

You'd have ammo proooblems

[torn root]

base dwarf

most based class imo

[terse idol]

Yeesss

[wanton dawn]

Maybe we need to get back to talk about pokemon kink. It put ppl in good mood

[spark helm]

Think everytime you have systems that experience complete overhauls. It can takes months, nearly years for stuff to peter out and work better because you're already dropping your balance patches in a stagger ed way

[wanton dawn]

Post lopunny picture pls

[umbral scaffold]

Literally the only constants towards ammo economy the game has always had were the map and its random pickups

[spark helm]

So you'll naturally end up having balance changes aren't meant to fully realize what's going on, just to steer your complete balance change in another direction until it's stable.

Or at least feels stable.

[serene sage]

So, correct if I am wrong, I am trying to be as charitable as I can
You think ammo economy is fucked because of Survivalist (devs can't add more ammo without the whole game breaking, etc etc.).
You want to experience builds variety, which I assume would involves some amount of shooting because that is the only thing that consumes ammo.

[umbral scaffold]

You can get 4 ogryns, 4 psykers, 4 vets, 4 zealots and the pickups will be the same on the map

[spark helm]

dark and darker is a solid exmaple of this

[slow garden]

Personally I am glad Survivalist exists. I don't entirely care in what form it exists, but gods am I glad it does.

I can end up ammo starved on auric maps as is

(Usually due to gungryn)

End up with barely half a mag of plasgun for 50% of the map

[umbral scaffold]

I can get a psyker and magdump the wall too, if that makes you feel better

[slow garden]

That's with me having very high accuracy, mind you, mate.

Doing my job.

[ebon umbra]

do most players benefit from scav and does it make the game more fun. only question that needs to be asked

[slow garden]

Shooting specials/monsters/elites

Protecting team with fire

[serene sage]

yes but they have less fun without it (while not wanting to take it) so they want to throw it away

[slow garden]

And yeah it makes the game more fun

[ebon umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-lopunny-sunburst-gif-8445040253225575200

[umbral scaffold]

Fun and balance are often at odds and the game needs to keep a challenge to make the players feel in control, but not bore them to death

[torn root]

generally having both weapons accessable all game is more fun for players than only being able to use one a little

[slow garden]

Imagine being in an auric damnation map where the gungryn snags every ammo bag

And leaves you with 10 plasgun ammo

Lol so fun

[wanton dawn]

This pokemon channel now

[spark helm]

Personally think people would have more fun with this game by distancing themselves further from ultra safe builds.

[umbral scaffold]

It seems that every problem you had with ammo so far was an ogryn with a gun

[slow garden]

Manurit it sounds like you just want a new difficulty option

[spark helm]

And then learning how to play with those vulnerabilities therein.

[slow garden]

Ogryn with a gun is basically a stand-in for any greedy team mate

[umbral scaffold]

Sounds to me like the fix isn't survivalist, but not having a player wasting ammo in your match

[torn root]

stop this!

[ebon umbra]

the natural progression of metamancers

[fossil basalt]

IMO if the team can't collectively manage ammo, they don't deserve the W

[serene sage]

it's canon

[slow garden]

Lol yeah sure just make matchmaking even more of a pita

[serene sage]

you can't deny it

[slow garden]

That will fix things

[wanton dawn]

Still a dude

[slow garden]

Randoms play has to be viable

[terse idol]

TRUE but also ahh, thats the hard part

[serene sage]

im straight so anything i find attractive is a girl

[terse idol]

Honestly true

[wanton dawn]

YOU FORCED ME INTO DOING THIS VET CHAT

[terse idol]

If your team knee caps themselves

Its gonna be a long and hard fight

[wanton dawn]

I WARNED YOU

[umbral scaffold]

Considering the amount of non-survivalist vets I get in auric damnation and how often we don't have ammo problems, I question a lot of problems people have that survivalist apparently "fixes"

[torn root]

no because i want the game to be harder by removing survivalist

[slow garden]

I usually run with 1-2 other chosen team mates, but if a single greedy player can break my entire build, then thats a problem imo

[spark helm]

aint the legendaries genderless or something?

[slow garden]

lol right?

[terse idol]

Anecdotes

[umbral scaffold]

It's almost like the point of the game is to be engaged by it

[wanton dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/may-torchic-pokemon-buff-gains-gif-9412017531290124107

[terse idol]

Because at the end of the day

Lord forbid you get 2 gungryns

In the same lobby

[umbral scaffold]

Yes, it's an anecdote, thank you for pointing it out

[torn root]

the average player doesnt matter when ppl who take the game more seriously want the game to progressively become more difficult

wasnt trying to be too muc of a dick head

[umbral scaffold]

The entire thing is filled with anectodes

[serene sage]

if ammo is not a problem then why bother changing survivalist

[terse idol]

I don't want the game to become more difficult suffice it to say

[torn root]

but the fact that they don't see that they are being slightly elitist is baffling me

[umbral scaffold]

Your anecdotes versus mine, except mine are correct because they're mine

[terse idol]

But I want more choice, I also don't want the game to become old school WoW

[umbral scaffold]

And because the math has been shown and the argument has been made

But we can discard that

Nobody likes evidence

[terse idol]

Where people get kicked because we aren't running survivalist

[fluid escarp]

making the game more difficult would be nice

[terse idol]

That's how much of a problem that aura is

[slow garden]

90% accuracy on my games with a fully built god roll plasgun, running auric maelstrom frequently brings me below 25% total ammo, just due to the sheer fucking amount of things I need to shoot.

[spark helm]

People leave matches when they see me with the ms one lmao

[serene sage]

i have never been kicked for running fire team

what

[terse idol]

😭

[slow garden]

And that is with damage buffs

[fluid escarp]

besides, endgame is based on how to deal with specials anyway

[terse idol]

Me neither

[kind mantle]

why does the bayonet seem better than both of my weapons on veteran

[terse idol]

But all im waking is

[slow garden]

I kill a Lot of shit with that plasgun

[terse idol]

Because of how strong it is

I swear to God we might turn into it

[spark helm]

Nobody has kicked me but people will just leave pre-game lobby usually.

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah

[slow garden]

If I can tag it, it needs to be dead.

[torn root]

its not about being right, it's hard to have ppl agree with you though with hot takes like yours ngl

[spark helm]

Which is ironic because I've played with some of these people before. I've iterally carried them.

[wanton dawn]

Cuz it is most likely. Its very good

[spark helm]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[umbral scaffold]

Seen a lot of people just casually leave when I'm running speed aura

[torn root]

and

[slow garden]

Could be any number of reasons they leave, yknow

[torn root]

why the fuck does that matter

[ebon umbra]

plot twist: they were staff psykers

[slow garden]

Like maybe they need to take a dump

[spark helm]

It's great too when they leave because they fucked up something.

[torn root]

play the fucking game

[wanton dawn]

Seen a lot of people leave foe no reason

[torn root]

lmao

[umbral scaffold]

Oh yeah, let's pull the plural people to make me look bad, I'm sure that never went wrong

[serene sage]

tbf ive seen people leaving when i have survivalist, too

[torn root]

they hurt your feelings by leaving?

[serene sage]

they can leave for any reason

[umbral scaffold]

Did the plural people also ignore the mathematical evidence?

[slow garden]

You've been a prick, make yourself look bad

[spark helm]

Oh yo I still do it's just funny when it happens.

[terse idol]

Show me the math

[slow garden]

Anyway lads, I see ya roun, gotta get back to this spreadsheet

[umbral scaffold]

You weren't here for the start of it, so maybe shut the fuck up and stop judging?

[terse idol]

How do you determine the effectiveness of survivalist?

[slow garden]

Stimulatin convo tho

[torpid sundial]

I mean if you want the middle ground they can always tune it so that survivalist has different numbers with different weapon types

[slow garden]

[terse idol]

That might be even worse

Like

[kind mantle]

should i take survivalist aura btw

[torn root]

so you were running speed aura and someone left, it got you upset and you came to vet chat to talk about nerfinnf survivalist

its adding up now

[umbral scaffold]

No?

[torn root]

i mean

[wanton dawn]

No middle ground. Black and white is my jam. Ying yang ftw

[umbral scaffold]

I didn't even play a match today

[terse idol]

No but yes but no

[spark helm]

lmao hello?!

LMAO

WAIT

[torn root]

idk kinda what i got from that

[terse idol]

You shouldn't sacrifice your build for survivalist

[spark helm]

YO BRO WENT TO STRAIGHT DETECTIVE

That was awesome

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah, it seems to be a common theme

[spark helm]

I laughed fr

[torn root]

XD

[spark helm]

Like out of nowhere.

[umbral scaffold]

Do you have any other intellectual juggernaut assumptions you'd like to share?

[torn root]

I am just being a dick head atm

[spark helm]

"Actually it was because you crashed while drunk dirving wasn't it?!"

wh--?!

[torn root]

but low key got that vibe ngl

[spark helm]

PFFFT

[terse idol]

I'm so confused

[serene sage]

I think guns kill people.

[terse idol]

About this discussion

[torpid sundial]

Just make survivalist inbuilt to vet's passive without any skill points then

easy enough

[umbral scaffold]

You got that vibe because you don't have a proper argument and never had

[torpid sundial]

its not like vet is completely overpowered

[umbral scaffold]

Shit like that is why you earned an insult

[junior needle]

Yes, it's overwhelmingly the best aura and your teammates will think far more fondly of you if you have it.

[spark helm]

It got derailed but idk who's talking to who. Just thought it was funny that my man's went straight for that during the convo

[umbral scaffold]

But nooo I'm the evil guy being rude

[spark helm]

Nothing else, just funny for me.

[wanton dawn]

I mean...

[umbral scaffold]

The other guy making random assumptions about completely unrelated shit is the good guy

[serene sage]

generally yes, not a must

[spark helm]

It's a very safe option, yeah.

[midnight totem]

Potential bandages for survivalist:

Nerfing survivalist, perhaps it can have a CD, or refund less ammo.

Give other classes minor ammo sustain:

Ogryn: Munitions Mule node
Ogryn carries around a sack that creates two large ammo bags and a random stim every x minutes.

Psykers: you guys have staves fuck off kthxty

Zealots: Emperor Provideth node, increase ammo pickup for team from ammo tins and bags

Psykers: Implausible Magazines node, chance not to use ammo when firing, optional to make as an aura

[spark helm]

If you want to though, you can snatch up fire team.

[junior needle]

I mean, I just got here and know nothing about the conversation, but just these last few messages don't make you come across as a pleasant person.

[midnight totem]

What are your thoughts on these suggestions?

[umbral scaffold]

That's because it's easy to just come in, look at someone being rude and not thinking further

Thinking is hard

[junior needle]

You could just not be rude

[wanton dawn]

I mean...

[torn root]

I believe that its generally good for the game to keep things that allow players to keep maximum engagment in a game that allows them to use WHAT they want WHEN they want. That means not crying about people using GUNS too much in a game that ALSO HAS melee. I DON'T want to lessen others ability to use guns because ONE aura give them ammo to do so. It DOESN'T bother me that everyone can shoot frequently in a game that has shooting in it

[serene sage]

they are potentially good solutions to a problem that few people have.

[wanton dawn]

You could take a breather and discuss with a brighter disposition

[serene sage]

we can talk Monster Hunter

[wanton dawn]

Regardless of whose right or wrong

[umbral scaffold]

I will be rude to someone who has shown a complete disregard towards every single argument made, made false assumptions over and over and was honestly a fucking chore to talk with

Even Arco got tired of that shit

[torn root]

short end: stop being butt hurt that ppl enjoying shooting in Darktide a bit more than yourself

[umbral scaffold]

He explained it and got out

[torn root]

it really is a non issue

[umbral scaffold]

It is and has been explained why with math

You ignored the math

[wanton dawn]

Well, good thing i dont insult every ppl that are rude to me here

[umbral scaffold]

It has been explained from a game design perspective

[crisp oak]

Tbh Id rather buff the other auras

[umbral scaffold]

You ignored that too

[crisp oak]

Make it an actual choice

[serene sage]

how very unfrench of you

[torn root]

Arco jooined the fuckign argmuent late AF and didnt know WHAT was going on

[wanton dawn]

Fk yah

[torn root]

and then joined your side about nerfing the aura

[serene sage]

what happened to this

Well, good thing i dont insult every ppl that are rude to me here

[torn root]

THAT NO ONE agrees with

STIL

[umbral scaffold]

Arco explained it to you as well

[torn root]

you are the only 2 that want it nerfed

for shit reasons

[wanton dawn]

I make an exception for you

[serene sage]

objectively wrong

[umbral scaffold]

And we have provided proper arguments and math

[torn root]

the same way you two DONT like my opinion is the same reason i dont like yours

[wanton dawn]

Cuz am contrarian

[serene sage]

i've seen 6 people so far who thinks Survivalist should be removed

there are like half dozens of them

literally

[torn root]

in this convo?

[umbral scaffold]

If it makes you feel better, I honestly don't like you

[spark helm]

I kind of think that it should've stayed as something inherent to vet alone like before.

[umbral scaffold]

As in you you

[serene sage]

in my time here

[spark helm]

but that was like ages ago.

[torn root]

well --- context

[serene sage]

no

[potent iris]

survivalist is unhealthy for the game 🙂

[serene sage]

no context, this is the internet

[midnight totem]

I wouldn't care if it was removed one way or another

[umbral scaffold]

But yes, the way you presented things were very helpful for me to not like you

[deep fable]

does plas have t4 blaze away?

[wanton dawn]

HIDE YOUR CHILDREN DA POLICE IS HERE

[torpid sundial]

buff survivalist ammo gen, its no longer an aura, and whatever ammo crates you pick up that overflows from your max cap splits evenly between your allies

[umbral scaffold]

The way you ignored everything that was said also aided in it

[torpid sundial]

there

[serene sage]

yeah but it's like sugar, let the people who want to indulge, indulge

[umbral scaffold]

The entire shitshow was certain people ignoring arguments and then going "but I don't see the arguments"

[crisp oak]

What do tou replace it with?

[umbral scaffold]

And it's fucking tiresome

[torpid sundial]

Idk

thats another thing

[torn root]

that's crazy almost like explaining your point of view doesn't ultimately change someone's opinion -- if it did you'd have long agreed with me

[crisp oak]

Yup, tbh vets auras suck

[torn root]

now wouldn't you

[midnight totem]

It's strong, perhaps more than it should be even both the other auras its compared to, and the lack of similar sustain options on other classes

[serene sage]

maximum ammo reserve? max peril cap for psykers?

[umbral scaffold]

I don't care about changing your view, but when you started making shit up about me and Arco that was annoying

[torpid sundial]

oh yeah

that seems nice

[torn root]

not just mine btw

but continue

[deep fable]

drama?

[torpid sundial]

5% max ammo for everyone or something

[terse idol]

Uh just give vet an ammo box on their bafk

That the make a pool

[torpid sundial]

yes

[umbral scaffold]

I literally don't give a rat's ass about how many people agree with you or me

[terse idol]

That your teammates grab from

[torpid sundial]

thats fun too

everyone runs to you

and grabs ammo off your back

you can collect ammo crates

and it refills your back

[deep fable]

thats just strictly inferior to 5% damage

[torn root]

people who don't care really wouldnt need to clarify it

[umbral scaffold]

People agreeing with either side doesn't automatically make either side right

[torpid sundial]

10-15% then idk

[terse idol]

Just make vet a pack rat from vermintide 2 fr

[umbral scaffold]

Any normal person understands that

[serene sage]

then we have people running away from teammates to horde ammo

honestly that would be funny as shit

I would play

[torn root]

didn;t say i was right

not once

[deep fable]

10% would be good then

[torn root]

not even twice

[midnight totem]

Is there an aura for extra crit or weak point damage?

[torpid sundial]

Okay but see everyone would ping ammo

[serene sage]

no gungryn you can't have my ammo

[torpid sundial]

and vet can hoard it

[terse idol]

Bo

No

[torpid sundial]

it would be fun

[torn root]

actually i said i was right a sum total of 0 times

[umbral scaffold]

Oh no, you have been arguing from the point of view of a wrong person then

[terse idol]

There's an aura for extra damage that kinda sucks

5%

[umbral scaffold]

Of course

My mistake

[midnight totem]

I know psyker has an aura for extra crit

[serene sage]

psyker has extra crit?

[umbral scaffold]

Well, if you're not right and I am, I guess that settles it

[serene sage]

yeah

[midnight totem]

Extra weak point damage aura

[deep fable]

the thing is having ammo doesnt let you magically trivialize an encounter

[midnight totem]

There, easy replacement

[umbral scaffold]

A lot of times it does, actually

[terse idol]

Honestly I was joking, I like to think vet would get a giant crap backpack that would over fill with ammo

[serene sage]

what would psyker have then

[midnight totem]

Good contrast to extra 5 damage overall

[umbral scaffold]

Pulling out your gun to magdump ragers is one of the main ways to deal with them

[torn root]

no, doesn't mean because you think someone is wrong,your opinion has to be 100% right

that's baby logic

[torpid sundial]

support vet would be fun with that though

[serene sage]

and now they have more reasons to sell backpack comestic

[umbral scaffold]

Unless you like to melee 7 of them, in which case I think that's very brave and cool because it probably looks really badass

[serene sage]

[deep fable]

so survivalist while good is id argue still not worlds better than fire team

[terse idol]

Genius

They should hire me 😌

[midnight totem]

I mean, psyker with extra crit, vet with extra weakpoint or extra crit damage

[torn root]

and for someone calling others a troglodyte that's kind of pathetic

[terse idol]

Fire team is bad becauuuse

[torn root]

do better

[terse idol]

People build their own breakpoints

[umbral scaffold]

Well, I have to take a professional's word on it

Don't I?

[serene sage]

let it go

[terse idol]

5% is small enough that it'll never matter

[serene sage]

can't hold me back anymore

[terse idol]

besides me, I got a rashad that I may or may not need fire team for

[deep fable]

crusher, reaper, etc

[terse idol]

[terse idol]

Again, we build our own breakpoints 5% isn't gonna make a crusher die 1 shot less

Reapers are squishy af

[torn root]

probably find one, yeah might help you since people who disagree with you are trogies right?

[serene sage]

5% will help all weapons that use long shot for breakpoints though
and a selective amount of melee weps

[tiny summit]

Fire team means I do more dmg instead of more bullets. Less bullets means less dakka. Less dakka therefore less fun.

[terse idol]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[deep fable]

maybe fire team should also give pen and the movement speed should also give swing speed

[serene sage]

can't argue with this

[terse idol]

Can I make my lasgun one shot gunners with long shot and fire team

[potent iris]

the problem with survivalist is that there's no way to effectively balance or even really have an ammo economy, especially in endgame difficulties where survivalist basically becomes infinite ammo

that said though Auras and Aura balance in general kinda sucks

[midnight totem]

I'll replace survivalist with an extra 10 percent weak point damage aura. What do you think now?

[terse idol]

That's

Questionable

It'll leave a power vacuum

Which I'm fine with

[merry gale]

easy remove survivalist, buff ammo pickup spawnrate

[terse idol]

Survivialist stiinky

[midnight totem]

I mean for your rashad

[torn root]

okay maybe you can answer this without slinging insults: Why does having infinite ammo come off as a bad thing?

especially in auric

where you are going to need to melee anyway

[midnight totem]

Would you take that over fireteam?

[merry gale]

like sure right now with the current spawnrate of ammo pickup removing survivalist would literally kill 10 weapons

[serene sage]

Ammo economy is warped by Survivalist, this much is true.
But does the ammo economy need fixing to begin with?
I don't have problems with ammo running Fire Team tbh.

[strange sparrow]

I wouldn't take anything over survialist right now, especially because Auric Mission

Where specialist and elite are spammed across the map

[fluid escarp]

why would you have ammo pickups in the first place then, + trivializes melee usage

[serene sage]

No one here denies Surv being strong

[merry gale]

It entirely depends on who's on your team

[torn root]

but does it?

[merry gale]

if you're the only ammo hog then it's fine

[terse idol]

Oh Caim helped me find the 10% melee damage node

[torn root]

there are so many case-to-case instances where you are NOT going to want to be shooting

[tiny summit]

Ammo economy can get fucked as a discussion as long as overwhelming spam is the kinda horde experience they want. Add base survival to all auras. Vet innate aura. Discussion done

[terse idol]

And that helped my crusher BP

[strange sparrow]

People here should play Gun Psyker and struggle to find ammo in Auric Mission

[torn root]

ammo economy really isnt an issue in this game

[terse idol]

It can be

[merry gale]

Like if you match with me playing gunlugger you'll never see a single ammo pickup

[fluid escarp]

most def, remember that some weapons specifically have less ammo to balance their strength

[terse idol]

I played a round yesterday, where I was legit struggling on ammo on my revolver

[deep fable]

its not meant to be a huge issue

[terse idol]

The entire game

[midnight totem]

Easy ammo economy: force your team to go psyker with staves. Leave all ammo for yourself

[potent iris]

it skews balance like crazy and also railroads people into taking survivalist or getting singled out by other players which reduces build diversity, increases toxicity etc.

columnus is overpowered rn because of crit strings but it gets utterly absurd when a veteran can just spray that thing all day with zero concern for ammo, same goes for a lot of other weapons (like Ogryn gunluggers benefiting from survivalist gets ridiculous fast)

[tiny summit]

Shooting is fun and melee is fun

[serene sage]

that sounds like a player issue rather than an aura issue

[terse idol]

And that was picking evert shot to only snipe elites or monstrocities

[midnight totem]

https://tenor.com/view/betty-white-use-your-head-brain-power-thinking-be-smart-gif-23530829

[serene sage]

if people don't share no amount of ammo can help

[merry gale]

it's an ammo spawnrate issue

[terse idol]

Second yeah thats player behaviour

People need to actually work together

Same like in vermin tide 2

Stealing ammo away from a ranged build

[strange sparrow]

Nah fuck my team

[serene sage]

no it's a gungryn issue

[potent iris]

powercreep has turned people from working together/focusing on winning to instead focusing on stat chasing lol

[strange sparrow]

they’re here to loot Plasteel with me

[merry gale]

i'm the only ranged build necessary and there isn't enough pickups to sustain 2 so

[strange sparrow]

I’m not here to babysit them

[tiny summit]

It's a "just make it innate to all auras" issue

[strange sparrow]

[terse idol]

Need better support talents

Like the most fun thing to do is

Deleting a room

[merry gale]

the player needs a nerf mostly or the ennemies a buff

[serene sage]

people are crying VoC is too strong

[wanton dawn]

Joke on yah, i always chased stats

[potent iris]

sure here have uhhhh checks notes

5% move speed aura

[terse idol]

The least fun thing is giving 6 toughness to someone

[serene sage]

being an almost purely defensive ult

[terse idol]

[strange sparrow]

It’s Veteran chat alright, demanding to nerf their own kit whenever

[wanton dawn]

Imagine playing support vet with born leader

[strange sparrow]

Can’t have fun in Darktide

[tiny summit]

Surv exe helbore taking the big red bag

[torn root]

So its not probelmatic that other auras arent as good, just that this one is best inslot because the others aren't on par?

[potent iris]

I mean most classes and a lot of weapons need nerfing rn