quants-n-traders

[winged dove]

When will t3 go away ? Tired of seeing this chop shop being advertised on linkedin

[robust turret]

How do I become a quantitative trader? Anyone know?

[rose holly]

bros at step 0

[robust turret]

What step are you at?

[rose holly]

-1

[haughty hinge]

T3

[winged dove]

Yeah they keep spamming their stuff on linkedin postings when you search quant

[robust turret]

Type shit

i did NOT read that

[peak egret]

Anyone else get trading assessment for imc launchpad

[queen pendant]

targeted advertising lil bro

[winged dove]

True 💀

[hazy hawk]

Anyone know if optiver will blacklist you for a year if you reapply for a role in a cycle that says not to, but doesn't say the "if you reapply before your cooling period is over this will be considered your most recent application" 12 month cooling period thing 🤔

[night cove]

yes I took it 3 weeks ago and have been ghosted

very frustrating

ive sent emails to 2 diff recruiters and they have not responded

[peak egret]

damn looks like i applied really late

[night cove]

yeah

[peak egret]

ggs

[night cove]

idk if it matters tho

[peak egret]

probably does tbh

[night cove]

idk how tf they are selecting people for interviews

[peak egret]

im assuming its on a rolling basis

[night cove]

some people who did well a month back no interview

some people did the oa last week got interview

[peak egret]

hmm

alr

how was it btw?

[night cove]

and theres just 0 transparency

I had heard imc process was slow and trash but man I kinda thought they were exaggerating

[night cove]

easy

prolly like 13/15

1 is unsolvable

[peak egret]

yeah thats all recruiting tbh

alright

[night cove]

idk ive had pretty good experiences

like for sig discovery day it was good

[peak egret]

dude

for this summer

[night cove]

js is good with process

[peak egret]

my place took 2 months to get back to me

with an offer nontheless

[night cove]

dang

[peak egret]

[night cove]

citadel took 5 months to give me discover invite 💀

[peak egret]

bros collecting these goddamn programs like badges 😭

how cracked are u bro

[night cove]

yeah kinda

i like free vacays 2

[peak egret]

LOL fair

[night cove]

and guaranteed process

if I get imc i can get a free flight since I can fly straight from chi to the bay and not have to book my own flight for internship

[night cove]

im not

idk how I got discover lol

sig makes sense I did well on their oa and interview

[peak egret]

wait thats actually so big brain

[night cove]

yeah will save like 300 bucks

• visiting chi again which I miss

• imc process

• fun trip before internship starts

[peak egret]

where u gonna be at

[night cove]

but alas I think its joever they are ghosting me

[night cove]

roblox

[peak egret]

sheesh

nice

[night cove]

thx

i failed js

:(

bruh

imc recruiters should be working at mcdonalds

[peak egret]

wait you had two

the hell

[night cove]

yes

[peak egret]

idk my timeline just says oa then phone screen

maybe thats what theyre calling a hirevue

oh wait dude i was talking about launchpad

not their internship

maybe thats why

[uneven narwhal]

Anyone do first rnd technical w OMC after OA? Would really appreciate a chat and help/advice. Have the interview next week.

[uneven narwhal]

Yeah

[winged dove]

Anyone heard back from volridge ?

[little oxide]

Imc has 2 oas??

[vast relic]

did u get hr yet

[night cove]

No they hate me

I emailed 2 recruiters bruh this is crazy

[peak egret]

citadel datathon reject 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

Same generic, meh meh meh too many applicants we didn’t even look at ur crap

Tbf not like I would have gotten it anyways

[night cove]

ong

sig and cit mog them anyway

[peak egret]

I like imc culture tho ngl

They seem cool

I’m an imc simp ig

[night cove]

True sig goated

[rare lynx]

I have a master's degree with a concentration in analysis and geometry. which is better to put on a resume, a master's in math or a master's in analysis and geometry. Currently working as a data scientist.

[old sand]

title: masters in mathematics
subtitle: concentration in analysis and geometry

imo

[rose holly]

does cit ghost after interviews ..

[neon mirage]

No from personal exp

It can take a while tho like it took 2 weeks for me lol

[rose holly]

🆖Ⓜ️ℹ️

[thin bramble]

focus on other processes you can still change

[peak egret]

Took me 2 months to hear back w an offer from a place once

Just hang tight

[little oxide]

Good

[night cove]

Bruh u stalker

[little oxide]

We is

[peak egret]

thats news to me lol what

[rose holly]

what does this mean

[stray sentinel]

Swe at top hft firm or quant at mid hft firm? Tc is about the same

[half valve]

sounds like NG

no way u can pick after any yoe ithink

[stray sentinel]

New grad

[drifting imp]

any opinions on best firms to be at for swe? I have 2 yoe and actively interviewing

I used to not really think citsec was that great but seems like they're paying a lot these days

[little oxide]

Hrt

[thin bramble]

Why bother asking

You should apply to all decent firms and only need to compare when you have offer

It is also very team dependent, so depends on what team you get at firms

[drifting imp]

well I’m in the final rounds with CitSec so trying to figure out if there’s anywhere else I should apply

like just because there might be some to not bother with

or maybe there’s more niche options—not sure

[peak egret]

IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC IMC

[west plaza]

heya, anyone interested in optiver referral? dm for link

[drifting imp]

should I try applying for trading too then? are there any firms that hire non new grad

[drifting imp]

any idea what my options are then

I thought I heard that maybe IMC hired non ng with no experience

or maybe the right call for me then is to join a more automated firm like hrt or radix if possible

[drifting imp]

well I don’t think I’m eligible for ng trading roles since I have 2 years of work experience

I’m a dev at a different shop right now

okay all good

Im happy to do that but I don’t think most firms allow non college students to apply

or at least that was my impression

I just want to maximize my options

Im also looking at more quant dev type roles

I think just because I think I’m close to an offer and want to apply to as much as possible before I receive my offer deadline

(tho I could also just not get the offer)

well yeah but it’s not like I’m 40 and can’t learn new things

and am looking for something different

I think that’s an insane comparison lol

yeah I’m aware

I mean I would obviously be preparing for the interviews differently

I’m not suggesting that these are extremely similar roles

but it’s not as if I have no exposure at all to the trading space

are you a trader?

[drifting imp]

no it’s fine I’m looking for as much information as I can find

but not sure this point makes sense

like surely I must apply in order to have a chance at all

I mean I was close to landing a trading offer when I was in college (had a few onsites) so I don’t think it’s impossible really

I agree it’s hard given my experience so far but just looking for any ideas on what the best course of action would be

[little oxide]

bro sneaked in tower and xtx with radix

[drifting imp]

I think I’d enjoy it lol

when I was a senior in college applying for ft

[midnight scroll]

how much does XTX pay full time if their PHD residency pays 480k lol

[crystal lynx]

wait so if i don't have a qt internship after i graduate is it over? like no chance for qt ft?

[lost leaf]

only 480 💀 didnt know they were poor

gotta get their green up

cant even purchase over 60,000 halal cart chicken over rices a year on that much

[midnight scroll]

fr

how am I gonna fuel my brain if I can't afford to eat

[terse barn]

pretty much

the recruiters ive talked to werent even like indirect about it they just flat out said it will be very hard, maybe close to impossible

[crystal lynx]

Fair

I mean there’s always outliers to the pattern

[wintry tendon]

u can also do one after you graduate

[winged dove]

Tbf I see a lotta trader roles asking for swe skills as well

[zenith whale]

xtx phd residency is a hilarious concept

[crystal lynx]

I’m not sure bro all the ones I see asking for juniors

[wintry tendon]

a lot of places allow it

[neat root]

The XTX compensation is impressive, but the location is not perfect

[midnight scroll]

It's XTY in the US I think in NYC

Phd and postdoc residency only it seems ?

Research arm for ML

https://www.xtxmarkets.com/career/xty-labs-ai-residency/

[winged dove]

Looks similar to googles residency in regards to requirements

[thin bramble]

pays much more though

[little oxide]

Wrong

My friend got jump qr ft with no qt intern

Yall be waffling anything

[terse barn]

is ur friend like published hella

[little oxide]

No

But he did ipho

But that doesn't matter

He got the interview and passed

[terse barn]

feel like getting the interview is the hard part at that point

[vague forge]

this chat is full of larpers

[vague forge]

aks

[stable zephyr]

wait, generally speaking

I notice people like qr over qt, and qt over swe

is it cuz of comp diffs or are some jobs more fun

like I feel qt has nothing to do with cs, and qr is just stats stuff

[winged dove]

I gotta start prepping for the Belv interview

[midnight scroll]

for some firms comp diff

some places do pay quite similar to both swe and trading

but others it can be significantly more $$$ for qt

also qt gets paid to play poker. need that

[stable zephyr]

isn't it best to major in math if you go qt tho

why is doing systems important LOL

[midnight scroll]

the qualification is be smart

the knowledge you have is not essential

they just need to filter out to see if you're smart

[winged dove]

Have people gone from qt -> qr ?

[next rampart]

why ever would you want to do that

[zenith whale]

XD

why would u ever do this

[winged dove]

I like research stuffs

[peak egret]

what u expect 💀

[west plaza]

Some QT roles can be more research/coding depending on the firm (systematic vs semi-systematic)

[rapid mesa]

Yea all the time

Ppl intern as QTs and get ros as QRs

Ppl start as QTs at a firm and get interested in QR work, start some on the side and end up doing mostly QR

[little oxide]

WHO AKSED

[next rampart]

200

[pallid berry]

180-220 tc

[quasi orbit]

That can’t be real for sig

Rly? That’s so low

[pallid berry]

I had an offer from them and asked multiple ppl on the team

220 was only for front office teams

[midnight scroll]

sig qt pay tho 😳

[midnight scroll]

i've made a server for ppl who haven't landed their first qt/qr internship and want to troll or shitpost or discuss off-topic stuff. Prepping for internships, discuss ng recruiting, ro rates and culture of different firms will not be tolerated and i won't be hesitant with banning people. dm if interested in joining.

[weary nacelle]

Is CTC good?

[midnight scroll]

bout on par with walmart

[weary nacelle]

Pls I’m being deadass lol I’m just wondering if I bagged 25 internship if it would be worth considering delaying my grad

[midnight scroll]

Lol I have no clue, I have a friend of a friend from UIUC going there, but I doubt they would know much either

[split lintel]

@brisk hearth is interning at ctc

[weary nacelle]

Ty Mr Juda

[brisk hearth]

U have any questions about it?

[weary nacelle]

Tbh curious about the firms culture, NG pay and interview process lol if I get offer it would require me to delay my grad so I’m just wondering what possible pros or cons are, quant space seems interesting but I would def want a relatively “chiller” shop

[potent dome]

is the cubist hackathon auto accept

[midnight scroll]

now I feel goofy for trolling the final oops

missed out on the bag of my life

I was joking about the server btw

im just here to larp

sig interview wasnt even that hard I just threw

so sad

260k woulda been fire

see thats because you arent ngmi like me

260 makes anything worth it

and if I live in kensington for that juicy LCOL I can retire and be like frank niu

that makes sig worth!!!

wonder if I apply again next year as a senior for internship if they would look again

do a +1 masters

idk how applying for internships as a senior is usually looked upon tbh

[midnight scroll]

ima apply again 🙏 hopefully they take seniors lmao

second time is totally the charm!

[night cove]

yeah

ctc very good

sig swe is fantastic in relation to tech but low for quant firm swe

[potent dome]

is the cubist hackathon auto accept

[haughty hinge]

Anyone did 5R QT ft process for London?

[queen pendant]

top tech is def easier to get than sig swe just based on volume

[pallid berry]

sig swe interviews were stupid easy

[brisk hearth]

i've yet to intern there, but i have some classmates who've interned there. and they said it's def one of the more chill shops. and the employees there said (when i visited) that u get in the office around 8 or 8:30 and leave by 5. so they def don't overwork u

and almost all my classmates who've interned there accepted the full time offer

[weary nacelle]

appreciate the information cause that sounds like exactly what im looking for lol! hows NG TC? lol

[brisk hearth]

what's NG TC?

[weary nacelle]

new grad total compensation lol

[brisk hearth]

p sure it's higher, around 300

for swe

and trader probs like 350 or 400

[weary nacelle]

thank you! could i dm about some other questions lol

[brisk hearth]

yea fs

[midnight scroll]

its no longer joever

alright now I gotta make sure I get into the masters program 😭

yeah Im probably gonna try and just do a bs + ms for security

vastly easier to get into than a traditional masters

[atomic tree]

[lost leaf]

arent those fake discounts literally illegal

[potent dome]

nah

thats why im thinking auto accept

[knotty ridge]

More like false advertising than fake prices

[midnight scroll]

Anyone know anything at all about DC Energy

Seems they do no internships

Any clue about comp

[little oxide]

Cook him

💀

Who?

[weary nacelle]

She left career influencing and switch to being a make up influencer on IG lol

[cyan shoal]

this isnt true ctc is actually weird about the fact that their swes and traders get same intern and ng comp

yea ctc doesnt nego new grad comp

[brisk hearth]

wait this isn't true. i asked the other intern traders there and they make a few thousand more per month than the swes

[cyan shoal]

they give firm offers

[cyan shoal]

lol this isnt true lol comp is standardized

u can dm if ud like

and pretty much the majority of the kids ik who interned there have left because they dont negotiate new grad offers

[wintry tendon]

i think optiver has a few pure ms interns this yr fwiw

[cyan shoal]

pretty much all the decent swes/qts who interned their from my school left for drw, optiver, or 5r

[brisk hearth]

idk bro, i dont c y the other interns have any incentive to lie about their comp, unless u got a dif comp package

also im talking about intern pay, not ng

[cyan shoal]

yea both are standardized unless u are a masters student

it doesnt have to do with swe vs qt difference

i think there may be a bump if u are a masters student regardless of role just cause ur masters

[brisk hearth]

wait r u saying the swes and traders make the same amt? or it's the same amt within swes and traders

[cyan shoal]

swes and traders make the exact same amount as interns and new grads at ctc

the recruiter has opnely told me lol

trader obviously scaled way better cause sign on falls off for swes

and trader recurring bonus increases and goes much higher than swe

yea they allow transition pretty easily

like relative to other firms

iroinically education is not seperated by trader and swe @ ctc

both go through the exact same education and only difference is its not like madnatory for swes are a few weeks

but regardless usually like 2-3 swe interns every year get qt ro because they just give ro based on how everyone performs in the education

regardless of swe or qt

so its very different from other firms in that sense

also there is no real qt per say

qt/qrs/qd are all grouped into the same intern role

u do have to beat out the kids who were hired for qt in the educational process

so its not like just cause u want qt return offer

u will get it

sure

[broken pumice]

can I join lol

accidentally got a trading interview in a week

[cyan shoal]

yea lo

lol

well to be accurate the education is only mandatory for swes for like a week but the qts have to go all summer

but the whole point is the swes have access to all the qts educations and everything if they want it

because they want to try and get as many qts as they can

yea it is honestly

they actively try to give as many swes return offers to be qts if they can

they hire way more qt interns than swes

but qt return offer rate is much lower

so they still have to hire new grad traders

but they dont have to hire new grad swes

so if they have to hire new grad traders anyways

might as well try and convert some of the swe interns to qts

because a lot of the swe intenrs wanna be qts

thats interesting

[pearl river]

Hey, for any full timers here, wondering if I could get some insight on this.
I’m interning at Jane street this year for swe as my last internship. I’m hoping to return for new grad if I get the opportunity to, but I do eventually want to return to big tech. Would working at js and using ocaml/functional programming make it harder to pivot back into faang/big tech adjacent companies later on?

Lmk if this is the wrong place to ask this ^

[potent dome]

Why tf big tech if your at js

[brisk ingot]

don't think it'll be an issue, someone i knew at jane street just left and joined ramp a few months ago

[winged dove]

For full time trader roles optivers 80 in 8 was only hard because you have to do it quickly

[pearl river]

Oh nice okay, thank you

[pearl river]

I mean why not, imo its an opportunity to get to work on something different and probably have more flexibility in where I work

[little oxide]

Why u wanna join faang

[midnight scroll]

Makes sense

[wintry tendon]

how do you identify somewhere with good training? would you say most of the large mms have good training?

gotcha -- do you think the training program approach is better than the sink or swim one from the perspective of a ng

like ive heard stories (idk how true) about traders like 1-2 yrs out at sig who dont trade yet

[winged dove]

I've passed some but I find them very challenging honestly to really smoke these I would after to set aside a couple of months of studying at least

[low vault]

Rip I’m going to hf xd

[brisk ingot]

sig non-compete seems rough tho

deadass

oh bet that's alr then

lmao thought it was 3 years actually so long

[torpid flint]

is any firm still hiring for swe role?

[winged dove]

Belv

[weary nacelle]

Any firms do fall?

Besides cit

[little oxide]

Why do u wanna leave sig

[still sapphire]

Can some one pls tell When is the recruiting cycle for industry hires?

For quant firms

And a good place to track all the firms and their openings?

[exotic eagle]

does cit only have fall for swe

or both swe and quant

[quasi orbit]

only swe

u kinda need an intern class for trading

[proper cave]

How can I become a quant? what should I learn? thanks

[weary nacelle]

Learn calculus in elementary school

[little oxide]

Learn to do Google search fool

[low vault]

You do not come to the quant, the quant comes to you

[weary nacelle]

and with your spirit

[low vault]

Yes you need the spirit

[vague spear]

Is it worth to put insight events like SIG discovery day on resume?

What do you even put for the bullets?

[tranquil wagon]

What’s the point of doing them if you shouldn’t put them on ur resume

[somber orbit]

word

[tranquil wagon]

No like I’m actually asking

[peak egret]

Want some advice. Lucky enough to have gotten 2 offers:
SWE at Morgan Stanley and fixed income developer at a place called StoneX.My end goal is qr/qt.

I don’t know what team I’ll be placed on at MS, but most likely just a run of the mill swe role, but for stoneX I’ll be working on pricing models for fixed income assets like bonds and corporate debt, foreign bonds etc. the role will be data heavy. Which one should I take? Idk if the name brand of MS will help me for recruiting or not. The role at stoneX is more in-line with quant related work tbh but idk.

I’m a sophomore if that helps

So I’d still have another internship cycle to do

[delicate hinge]

Wtf is this channel??

[clear sparrow]

quant

[delicate hinge]

what stone/sig means? too much jargon

[little oxide]

Fr lmao

Put it

[little oxide]

Quant this ain't for Cs ngmis

[rose holly]

Dm for 5r qt alpha

[rapid mesa]

Yea the keyword probs gets u past res screen

Auto res screen that is

[somber orbit]

how much does stonex pay?

morgan stanley > unless stonex is insane but never heard of it before

[peak egret]

45

A little less than ms

I don’t care about pay as long as it sets me up tbh

[robust badge]

do not go for StoneX, trust me the tech is so bad

or maybe just in the UK, could be a different story in the US

[peak egret]

Have you worked there?

They do use .net which is kinda weird

Then again their work isn’t exactly high frequency

[robust badge]

no but I worked for a company which provided them with services without giving away too much detail

the shit they needed and couldn't do was so basic

[peak egret]

Damn

[robust badge]

but again this was in the UK, it could be completely different in the US

[peak egret]

Yeah definitely

Thanks for the heads up regardless

[robust badge]

nws and congrats on the offers

[winged dove]

Nice job 🙂

[broken pumice]

anyone have tips for commodity trading @ bp

i have an interview in 2 days

[stray sentinel]

If you have another cycle you should do MS

[winged dove]

Belv interview completed

[low vault]

ngl if i had 2 offers w similar pay 1 in tech 1 in trading id prob take tech

i think quant pay just scales better than tech does, so between similar quality tech and quant companies, the tech one will almost always pay less

w.r.t. internships, pay doesn't really matter and is more of an indication of how much they think you're worth

ofc take this w a grain of salt im just spewing garbage in bed

[winged dove]

Who cares ?

[low vault]

I recall having a conversation with this trader (anonymous for obvious reasons) just a few days ago.

"So, you're really leaving Jane Street?" I asked, still in disbelief.

"Yep, I'm going to Belvedere Trading," he replied.

"But...but...you're one of their best traders! How could they let you go?"

"It's simple, really. Belvedere Trading offered to triple my salary, and I couldn't refuse."

"I don't know if I believe you," I said. "Jane Street is one of the best firms out there. They're not going to let their top trader leave without a fight."

"You're wrong," he said, confidently. "Jane Street is on its way down. Belvedere is the future. In five years time, they're going to be the biggest player in quant."

I was skeptical, but I had to admit, he sounded convincing

[winged dove]

Honestly I would like some more insight I really enjoyed the interview problems Belv gave good mix of swe/math stuffs

[peak egret]

neither are in trading

both are tech roles at finance companies

[peak egret]

howd it go

also what timezone u in bruh lol

[winged dove]

Est went well man I gotta head to bed

Belv looks nice tbh

[peak egret]

why are you interviewing at 2am bruh 😭

[winged dove]

Did it at like 8pm

[peak egret]

still kinda wild ngl

[winged dove]

Been staying up and just relaxing catching up on wow

[low vault]

Lol I would’ve taken MSFT then xd

But that’s cos I’m a swe nerd

[low vault]

Belvedere

[peak egret]

whats w the belv meme here ion get it

[little oxide]

Belv is mid so ngmis like taf hype it up

[winged dove]

Yes

😹

[peak egret]

That’s harsh bruh

[winged dove]

I’d rather be a low paid quant making a low 100k/yr getting the chance to get some serious expeience and knowledge then not have a quant job at all

[peak egret]

^

Unironically

If all ur chasing is the tc and not actual intellectual stimulation what r u doing w ur life

[midnight scroll]

Donate me ur salary then

[peak egret]

only if u blow it on hookers an cocaine

[rose holly]

"You're just trying to cope with your job."

I glared at the therapist. I had come to him for help, for guidance. And all he could tell me was that I was just trying to cope?

I shook my head and stood up. "I don't need this," I said, storming out of his office.

I had been doubting myself for months. Ever since I started working at Jane Street, I had been questioning the usefulness of my work. Buying and selling equity options didn't seem like it was doing much good in the world.

And then I met Esteban.

It was during my paid time off, and I had gone to Bolivia to visit my girlfriend's family. We were touring a coffee farm when, to my surprise, a man came up to me and started praying on his knees. Tears were welling in his eyes.

"You saved my life!" He screamed.

I was confused. How could I have saved this man's life? I didn't even know him.

But then he told me his story.

He explained that due to Jane Street's liquidity, he was able to sell his coffee beans 2 milliseconds faster, which was all the time he needed to take out a loan and save his mother in an emergency situation.

That's when I realized the true power of my work. I was doing good in the world. I was making a difference. Since that day, I have walked into work every day with a new sense of purpose. I am proud of the work that I do. And I am excited for the difference that I can continue to make in the world.

[bright mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/cool-fun-white-cat-dance-cool-and-fun-times-gif-16435335956387921912

[weary nacelle]

I’d rather be a low paid quant making a low 100k/yr getting the chance to get some serious expeience and knowledge then not have a quant job at all

[winged dove]

Once the tc is past a certain point I put my focus elsewhere your overall happiness is important

[peak egret]

^

My threshold is like

1 mil

After that it’s whatever yknow

[low vault]

Thats y u work for BelveGOAT

[spare pond]

anyone going to js focus in may?

[zenith whale]

working at a company isnt the way to pursue intellectual stimulation man lol

[brisk ingot]

in a practical sense how else u gonna be able to solve cool problems

[peak egret]

I was half trolling tbh

But you are at work for at least 8 hours a day normally

That’s a decent chunk of your day

I don’t think I’d have enough mental bandwidth to work and work on challenging stuff outside of work

Then again I’m a bum

[zenith whale]

you dont get to control what problems you solve in a work setting unless you're a phd in industry rsh (which no one here is)

[zenith whale]

yeah this is the thing imo

i feel like all the intellectual stimulation hippies dont work/work on some super niche startup/are doing a phd

quant isnt and will never be the intellectual option

[peak egret]

It’s the best option imo

Doesn’t mean it’s perfect

Sadly I will most likely end up a code monkey

[zenith whale]

depends on what you value

[peak egret]

[zenith whale]

i used to think qr was the optimum too

[peak egret]

Idk I’m starting to realize a lot of these titles are non standard

I have a friend who worked in qr but 90% of the time he was programming

[zenith whale]

yeah most qr is programming

[peak egret]

Or maybe I just have skewed expectations idk

[zenith whale]

writing sims/models/etc

but regardless its not ideal because finance upper management is extremely anti intellectual

working in that space is poison for the "intellectual curiosity" minded people

[peak egret]

Yeah but his stuff was more for their trading platform

[zenith whale]

im talking about the traditional t1 firms like citadel/citsec, hrt, jump, radix etc

[peak egret]

Hpc low latency an allat

Idk how they count that as research tbh

[zenith whale]

theyre old traders that could give less of a fuck about statistics or machine learning or whatever

[peak egret]

Nah the MDs even at banks have the background

Like technical I mean

Yeah idk what ur on ngl

[zenith whale]

u can just look on linkedin

i work at a systematic trading firm, v nontechnical higher ups

but this isnt the point im trying to make

[low vault]

Quant is peak make number go up

[zenith whale]

nah even in systematic places, the very high up people are nontechnical, the middle managers are usually the technical ones

and do most of the research lead stuff

[zenith whale]

the point is that simple things make money in low SnR setting

and theres little room for innovation

ur work as a qr is cleaning a new dataset and trying models that work in other asset classes, with different parameters

and then showing ur nontech manager some cute plots every 3 weeks

and then praying for a big bonus at the end of the year

[peak egret]

I want tomato soup

Tbh most important thing to remember for quant

Buy high sell low

They hired the smart people to do it

Duh

But like yeah unironically

[zenith whale]

they rode the shift into electronic trading

these people were trading in like 2000

in pits/beginning of electronic trading

so they were the domain experts

they do, because these people move around

but yes you're right that this is a symptom more prevalent in older firms

these people are still somewhat valuable because they know enough about enough things to be able to tell people what to build

kind of like an LLM

i mean u can maybe get lucky

but the shinier stuff isnt guaranteed to make money

and is much riskier

[peak egret]

a quant is just a glorified data scientist

specializing in financial markets

[zenith whale]

yep

[peak egret]

idk what you expected

[zenith whale]

🙂

yeah

im quitting in 4 months

[peak egret]

where at

[zenith whale]

starting phd

have 2yoe

[zenith whale]

shouldn't say, world's small

may get traced back to me

but a systematic trading firm college students would have heard of

[peak egret]

damn

bros actually him

[zenith whale]

lol 7 figures

ur not getting 7 figures in quant

[peak egret]

what u gonna do ur phd in

[zenith whale]

not for a while that is

mine was like 550-650 with nego

its gotten higher now

but subsequent year comps were lower, since signing bonus falls off

this is the case for all my friends

and all my friends at other firms

idk anyone who started same time as me and is making 7fig/year

[peak egret]

goddamn bro

600k straight outta college is actually bonkers 😭

maybe it is all about the tc after all...

[zenith whale]

it was easier 2 years ago

[peak egret]

fair, yeah

[zenith whale]

just did leetcode, math, stats

i did a lot of stats research and teaching in undergrad so the questions were fine

and leetcode came with prepping for tech interviews

for math i just went through that one book

i forget what its called

[peak egret]

the green book

[zenith whale]

yeah the green one

idk, everyone is trying to do this

the best places to do this are probably headlands or jump or radix

idk i think i actually got dumber

working here

for one my attention span is completely shot

looking back and forth at plotly graphs all day

[peak egret]

what about seaborn!!!!

qd is prob easier

[zenith whale]

idk i work at a systematic place

so everything is basically the same here

job titles different in name but thats it

where are u exiting to lol

this isnt ib

the skills u develop in trading are useless

this is true at non systematic places

but also yall do it to urselves

when half ur dev class comes in saying "oh i want to switch into qr"

that enforces some hierarchy right

even if that hierarchy wasnt there to begin with

youll probably get downleveled moving to tech

since most firms are flat

unless ur at 2s or shaw

growth is probably better at tech too

tech somewhat scales with tenure

quant does not scale with tenure at all

[stable zephyr]

isn't it better to start at quant then move to tech then

not at xtx

[zenith whale]

eh the starting salary gap is like 150k at most

youll have to time the switch optimally

seems too hard

what is the upside though

500k in tech vs 800k in quant

are these 2 people really living that differently

[stable zephyr]

tbf having a lot of money early on in career is much more important than raking it when ur like 60

cuz investments compound

and no point having millions if ur gonna die in like 10 years

[zenith whale]

sure thats fair

but working 70h/week in an industry u know u dont want to stay in

seems suboptimal

for 100k

[stable zephyr]

also I feel like quant has nothing to do with cs

so why do so many cs majors want to do quant

[zenith whale]

tiktok

such a tail end outcome it hardly matters

[stable zephyr]

tbf if business started raking it, you wouldn't see cs majors on the business grind LOL

[zenith whale]

quant has stuff to do with cs tbh

a lot of the swe work actually involves networking and whatnot

[stable zephyr]

that's arguably swe in quant

[zenith whale]

oh do you mean quant quant

[stable zephyr]

when people say quant I don't think they mean hard c++

[stable zephyr]

yeah

[zenith whale]

yeah this is more just reading how exchanges work and building simple predictive models

[stable zephyr]

honestly maybe the strat is to drop out of cs major

and do a stats and math double

[zenith whale]

i mean i wasnt a cs major

[stable zephyr]

did !!! land a top firm?

😵‍💫

[zenith whale]

im 2yoe

quitting in 4 months

[stable zephyr]

trader?

[zenith whale]

researcher

[stable zephyr]

huh

interesting

[stable zephyr]

too much work or is the work too boring

[zenith whale]

depends on the firm and the team and tbh i havent done recruiting in years so i wouldnt be the best help

[stable zephyr]

btw do you have any good class recs

[zenith whale]

work is boring

[zenith whale]

wdym

[stable zephyr]

damn only reason I want to go into quant is because I think the work would be much more interesting than mashing together code

[zenith whale]

its not

[stable zephyr]

good uni courses in math/stats/cs

[zenith whale]

u can scroll up to read my rant

[stable zephyr]

could you tag it? how far up

[zenith whale]

#quants-n-traders message

startup

[zenith whale]

umm idk it depends on ur school

[stable zephyr]

yeah that definitely is the ideal job lol

but i'm not getting a phd just to have a chance of landing good industry research at faang

[zenith whale]

if u want industry rsh

dont do classes

just do rsh

take easiest classes possible and spend all ur time doing research

[stable zephyr]

wdym? Like what would be some good classes if you are going for quant research

[stable zephyr]

what kind of research?

like deep learning won't help cuz yall don't use that shit right

same with CV

[zenith whale]

oh classes for quant research

just take like

stat learning

numerical optimization

operating systems

the basic stuff

[stable zephyr]

operating systems???

for quant research??

I'm not targeting quant swe btw

I would rather do swe at faang

[zenith whale]

yeah just knowing stuff like multithreading

is useful

i took OS and i wasnt a cs major

its also a fun class

[stable zephyr]

should I take distributed systems?

[zenith whale]

sure

[stable zephyr]

WTF lol

[zenith whale]

my team doesnt directly use deep learning but id argue its good to know the first principles in different fields

thats how research is done anyway

/discovery in general

[stable zephyr]

should I know real analysis or nah

wait lokey !!!

[zenith whale]

if u want to learn any statistics yes

[stable zephyr]

can I send you the course list

https://www.washington.edu/students/crscat/math.html

https://www.washington.edu/students/crscat/stat.html

for stats and math dept.

[stable zephyr]

none of the undergrad level stats classes require real analysis - do you mean GRAD stats classes???

[zenith whale]

yes

undergrad stats isnt real stats

[stable zephyr]

oh that makes sense

[zenith whale]

neither is undergrad math

[stable zephyr]

were you a pure math major LOL

[zenith whale]

yes

[stable zephyr]

so should I go analysis route and then just speedrun stats grad level courses?

[zenith whale]

sure

and numerical methods are good to know too

numerical analysis

linear programming

[stable zephyr]

also for quant quant, what kind of research in CS would you reccomend? CV, NLP (is it even applicable lol), deep learning, RL, optimization?

[stable zephyr]

oh i'm planning on taking those

[zenith whale]

nothing in cs research is applicable

[stable zephyr]

useful for mL

[zenith whale]

or research in general

do research if its interesting to you

[stable zephyr]

so research is useless to get into quant quant? Aren't a lot of them phd's who did a heck ton of research lol

[stable zephyr]

makes sense yeah

[zenith whale]

no its useful, you learn methods and how to do good research

but me constructing hypothesis tests that work asymptotically will have nothing to do with quant research

because quant research is largely: take this dataset clean it and plug it into our model

[stable zephyr]

I assume abstract algebra / fields / topology is useless right

[zenith whale]

eh

[stable zephyr]

or should I just do all math classes

[zenith whale]

abstract algebra comes up sometimes in stats

topology is useful

functional analysis is useful

[stable zephyr]

I'm doing a dual cs and math major, so I need to be very picky in exactly what math courses I take

cuz I can only take a certain number if I want to graduate on time

[zenith whale]

i see

i think analysis and algebra are nonnegotiable

at least undergrad analysis and algebra

[stable zephyr]

got it

[zenith whale]

bad at least in first 2 years

its bad everywhere

i think most my friends havent broken 550 yet (this is still sub starting if you're looking at the market the past two years)

[stable zephyr]

wait !!! if quant research is boring, where do you plan on going next?

prof or some shit?

[zenith whale]

phd is 5-6 years

[stable zephyr]

gonna grind tenure LOL

[zenith whale]

ill figure it out

[stable zephyr]

wait !!! lmk what you think of this plan

analyis & algebra on the maht front

and then apply that to grad level stats

(should I skip doing undergrad stats classes?)

[zenith whale]

have u taken inference

[stable zephyr]

and then on the cs side, for systems I just do operating + distributed

[stable zephyr]

no

[zenith whale]

if youve taken inference and basic probability theory (measure theoretic)

just follow whatever the first year phd studetns are doing

their quals sequence

those classes are usually well taught

and are comprehensive

[stable zephyr]

Uh i'm going to be taking probability theory (calc based), but no measure theory

are you saying I should do measure theory

[zenith whale]

obv u dont need all of this to be a quant but if u want a good statistics education you should do it

umm

[stable zephyr]

!!! how did you fit all of these classes in a single undergrad 😭

[zenith whale]

if u dont have calc based probability theory

u basically dont know probability

so u cant do measure theory

[stable zephyr]

I'll be taking it the next quarter*

[stable zephyr]

yeah I'm wondering if I need to do measure theory after

or if measure theory isn't useful

[zenith whale]

it would be the first thing i cut out of a possible schedule

but its good to know

yes

[stable zephyr]

just curious why don't quant's target more stats/math majors

and less cs majors

[zenith whale]

they do target stats/math majors

[stable zephyr]

oh lol

[zenith whale]

traders@MIT are mostly math ppl

just larping as cs because mommy told them to do it

[stable zephyr]

aren't traders pretty different for quants tho

you don't need to know analysis to be a trader

or any grad level stuff

[zenith whale]

u dont need to know analysis to be a quant either

[stable zephyr]

ohhh mb

[zenith whale]

u just need to pass the interview lol

once ur in ur in

[stable zephyr]

shit they quiz you on that 💀

[zenith whale]

like im sure i can train a monkey to do my job

[zenith whale]

no but if we stack rank u guys

im going with the guy who did stats grad classes

[stable zephyr]

what's the point of paying 400k for a job a monkey can do LOL

[zenith whale]

i ask myself this every day

no because qts arent intellectually curious

they just want to click buttons

and make money

[stable zephyr]

and I feel like if a job can be done by a monkey then it isn't worth doing lol

[zenith whale]

its aligned with their value function

[stable zephyr]

hey at least you are making like 8 times the average salary

[zenith whale]

i like research and miss going to talks and stuff

[stable zephyr]

you did research in ugrad?

oooh what kind

I'm most likely either gonna do some CV or ml optimizaiton stuff

idk

[zenith whale]

stats research

[lost leaf]

have you considered selling drugs instead

it's more interesting

[zenith whale]

its a good way to get variance in life

and i have the network to do it probably

[lost leaf]

do your phd in software engineering (computer science) with a focus on optimal unit test coverage vs dev time balance (convex optimization and statistics)

[zenith whale]

so hireable 🤩

[lost leaf]

he will make a fantasic web developer analyst at cognizant

[peak egret]

[stable zephyr]

wut

[zenith whale]

yes this is why im leaving

[stable zephyr]

what does one do in stats research lol

is it just a bunch of "try x and see if pattern emerges"

[peak egret]

monkeys would be tweaking rn if they could read

[stable zephyr]

or is it more foundational like you "create tool y, and boom it can do a bunch of new shit"

[peak egret]

Idk I think imma just do black tar heroin tbh

[zenith whale]

i was doing some stuff with approximating certain estimators

and some sampling research

(again, handwaving to preserve anonymity)

[stable zephyr]

so like more foundaitonal or application stuff?

I don't care for the details but by question is more like

"wut is stats research"

[peak egret]

I’ve heard this too LOL

[stable zephyr]

like is it something I would be interested in is what i'm tryna figure out

[peak egret]

everything is fake

We all die

[zenith whale]

it can be both

uw stats is quite good no?

[peak egret]

Rip

[stable zephyr]

idk, I'm in udub cs (cuz mommy wants cs haha)

[zenith whale]

ur profs will have a list of publications

[peak egret]

See this is what I’m saying

[stable zephyr]

actually?

[peak egret]

Just give up and do black tar heroin

That’s industry research tho no?

[stable zephyr]

research eng or reaserch scientist?

[peak egret]

So different

[stable zephyr]

deepmind does academia research wdym LOL

google publishes more in good conferences than any university in ml*

[peak egret]

Oh ok

I’m not too familiar

[stable zephyr]

@lost leaf what kind of ml do you do?

udub is kinda cracked for nlp

[lost leaf]

why would you ever work at deepmind. php @ metlife gaps so hard it's funny

[stable zephyr]

so I might literally JUST do nlp cuz udub is good at it haha

[lost leaf]

most nlp work out there these days is so but thats just me ig

but if u like that stuff it could be fun to work on

[stable zephyr]

idk what I like LOL

[lost leaf]

you should try to do research to find out

[stable zephyr]

I'm just gonna email a bunch of profs in an ml field and try to get a research position

[stable zephyr]

I'm not sure which ml field I should start with

ideally I get lucky and just do that field consistently for the rest of uni

[stable zephyr]

what are the most intellectually interesting ml fields in your opinion?

besides optimization/math theory stuff

ion have the math background for that type of work as an undergrad

[lost leaf]

if i answered this seriously id probably be doxxing myself

but ill keep it at just RL

[stable zephyr]

wait is this a seriour or non serious answer lol

RL is useful for robotics right

but I heard that RL is very very mathy

[stable zephyr]

is this accessible to an undergrad to do good research or nah?

[lost leaf]

that's up to how much dawg u have

[stable zephyr]

why 😭

[lost leaf]

i dont do anything useful with it dont worry

my phd is gonna be completely useless

[zenith whale]

thats so based

same

[stable zephyr]

lmao are you doing a phd in RL?

[lost leaf]

no

[stable zephyr]

wait why is your phd useless : (

[stable zephyr]

my schools mascot is a dawg ironically enough

I think we have the dawg in us

[lost leaf]

because i will be doing it on things that have 0 real world value whatsoever

i am doing this by choice

[stable zephyr]

so is CV the only ml field worth going into then?

what I mean is

should I try to land a CV position first

and then use nlp/other fields as backup if I can't get a ugrad research position in CV?

I can take CV freshman year first semester of uni

so I can get a pretty early on headstart

[lost leaf]

CV is unironically so boring these days. 3d vision 🥱

[stable zephyr]

😭

nlp is boring cv is boring rl is boring

[lost leaf]

explore some research projects and do what u like

dont ask random people on the internet this is supposed to be a character development arc for u

[stable zephyr]

so do I just do research in each field or something

[lost leaf]

most programs wont even take u without research exp anyways

[stable zephyr]

and then figure out what I like from that

[lost leaf]

read papers, look at what people in the field are making

watch 2 minute papers videos if u want a quick verbal explanation

[stable zephyr]

so like reading the top papers of neurips would be a good idea? and based on what papers I like, look more into that?

[stable zephyr]

oh bet

[lost leaf]

not top papers just look at recent papers

[stable zephyr]

I've watched him before

[lost leaf]

top papers are all just old shit that people loooove reusing

unless you mean stuff thats awarded at recent neurips

[stable zephyr]

like oral papers

[lost leaf]

oral presentations at these confs are geared towards a fairly technical audience

[stable zephyr]

oh

[lost leaf]

maybe look at their workshops?

[stable zephyr]

🫡

oh also gozer last question

[lost leaf]

just go around and see what ppl are doing

[stable zephyr]

besides calc 3 + lin alg + probability theory

do you have any math class recs to set me up well

like analysis is overkill or nah

[lost leaf]

IDK i stopped learning math after they got me to multiply two numbers

[stable zephyr]

💀

does homie do ml without linear alg

[peak egret]

What half decent math program doesn’t make you take analysis lol

[stable zephyr]

udub's math program LOL

[lost leaf]

what im saying is whatever math u actually need to know u can figure out later on

[peak egret]

no shot

[lost leaf]

just dont be a brainlet

[stable zephyr]

search up udub's BA Math

its BS is nice but requires too many math courses

can't fit it into my math + cs double major

[peak egret]

That’s already asking too much bro

[lost leaf]

most of the math on cs papers is just BS notation vomit to pad length/confuse reviewers and algebra that should be left in the appendix anyways

[peak egret]

Ah ic

Rutgers has a cool stats + math degree that overlaps a ton w cs

[stable zephyr]

I thought the math is like the rigor that defines a paper lol

[peak egret]

So it’s doable in 3 years

[stable zephyr]

udub is in state

more affordable

plus udub cs is pretty decent

[peak egret]

I’m just talking about me kekw

[stable zephyr]

oh damn you doing it?

that's such a cool degree

[peak egret]

Ya

[stable zephyr]

nutral check out oxford's math + cs degree

[lost leaf]

maybe in TCS, but there's not a whole lot you can say about a neural network without making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions

[stable zephyr]

its so pretty

[lost leaf]

rl is also fairly mathy but its like the cope kind of math where no one cares

riddle me this batman if you have 50 proofs on this paper why do literally none of them hold when i run the program

"assuming <assumption that does not hold except in very specific tabular scenarios that they used to write the paper with no further testing>,"

[stable zephyr]

what does this mean

like the constants are so high

that they end up dominating the time complexities?

[lost leaf]

no

[stable zephyr]

like its kn^2 but really its k

oh

[low vault]

RL = reibforcement learning?

[stable zephyr]

ohhhh Isee

that has no real life use case then

and is thus useless no?

[lost leaf]

yes

most research is useless

only the good research is useful

most research is not good research

[stable zephyr]

so how do I get/know the good research, if most of it is useless

[lost leaf]

99% of papers will never be cited

[lost leaf]

you develop a good bullshit filter

[stable zephyr]

like there are some very smart people with very impressive phd's right, why would they do useless research

[lost leaf]

it comes with experience

the better this filter the more useful your stuff will be

[lost leaf]

some people do more useless research than others

[stable zephyr]

wait gozer did you do a phd?

[stable zephyr]

damn that's pretty nice

so if I want to target industry rsh straight out of undergrad

I just gotta do hella research in undergrad

and hopefully make it good research

[lost leaf]

also its really hard to tell which ideas are actually useless

[stable zephyr]

does what classes I take matter, or should I focus on taking supe reasy classes

so I can dedicate most of the time to research?

[lost leaf]

depends on the rsh but yeah id prefer to just take easy classes for better rsh

if ur working on rly mathy stuff maybe take some math classes

not dumb shit like algebraic geometry though unless u wanna do an alg geo phd

[peak egret]

I did one research program

It consisted of 2 weeks writing monte Carlo sims

The rest was front end development

[lost leaf]

shit thats a good idea

gaslight an undergrad into doing all the shit i dont wanna do

gonna try to do that when i start

thanks

[stable zephyr]

that's so evil 😭

[peak egret]

BRO MY PI COULDN’T EVEN CODE

he’s the head of the econ dept 😭

But yeah isn’t that the point of undergrad researchers

Make them do all the boring stuff

[lost leaf]

this is normal

hell most software engineers forget how to code after they get senior enough or move to management too

[peak egret]

GGs

[lost leaf]

a lot of undergrads without significant research experience just cant go straight into research

so u either break them in by starting off with boring projects and give them the juicy shit after they absorb stuff via osmosis for a year

or just get ones that already know all the shit (very rare)

especially if that undergrad is in a different subject...

[peak egret]

Well yeah ik

[willow portal]

approximation algorithms papers are very math heavy

and it's functional analysis / concentration of measure esp if we are talking about clustering and high dimensional geometry

[lost leaf]

ok that is true

(i have read a grand total of 0 papers in those fields)

[willow portal]

but TCS has less in common with CS than theoretical physics and physics

[lost leaf]

tcs is a massive umbrella on its own

[rose holly]

do you take math 354 for math/statistics

[peak egret]

Just take the math dept version

I haven’t taken that class yet though

Wait I misread

You have the option of 354 vs whatever is that stat dept course

Basically whenever it gives u the option between a math and stat dept version take the math one lol

Just look on degree nav it literally has all the options for you

It’s a p straight forward program ngl

[rose holly]

also on your resume

does math/statistics basically look like a triple major

cs+ math/statistics

it would sound confusing

[winged dove]

Hmmm I’m not so sure espcially looking at the history of the subject

If people need good places to take courses I can link some stuff

[stray sentinel]

Easy, it’s harder other way round

[wintry sorrel]

Any quant devs/ SWEs @ quant firms in here?

TC?

[queen pendant]

the interviews are leetcode and the work is internal tooling

[wintry sorrel]

You work in the field?

[queen pendant]

what’s ur q

[wintry sorrel]

Interested in hearing info on the types of problems qd address at different firms

[queen pendant]

tbh ur not gonna get accurate answers

Qd is generally just used as a cope term by swes

[wintry sorrel]

Ik that’s why I asked the way I did. I’m just interested in SWEs that work for firms that can exceed TC @ Big tech

[queen pendant]

Most people are just back office/post trade doing the same thing ur doing at tech

eg internal tooling

[brisk ingot]

akuna capital sydney

[zenith whale]

some did some didnt

[merry saddle]

The gaul to ignore is insane

They ignore because they know they're in the wrong

But steps have been put into motion

Again, just to promote the original: https://www.quantguide.io/

[peak egret]

That one is great

https://www.puzzledquant.com/

Another good one i use too

I wonder if this one is a ripoff of qg too

[merry saddle]

Nah for the most part they write their own versions of popular questions and their own answers

Quantessential has been the most aggregious copy/paste I've seen

Literally this meme as a real life scenario

[peak egret]

idk if this is intentional or not but the fact that this meme is so deepfried adds to it

[haughty hinge]

how can dropshipping an entire website be unintentional

[peak egret]

i was talking about the meme he posted

[merry saddle]

It was just the first one on Google images

[merry saddle]

Mannnnnn 😭

[peak egret]

Wait did you work on quant guide or smth?

[wintry sorrel]

Nice welcome to the arrogance of the finance space 😂

[low vault]

yeah you get like 3x the pay for the same work at least starting out

just whatever floats your boat

theres like -ev stuff too

wlb, progression, etc. wont be as good

and the knowledge that your contributions will all be for making numbers go up on someones spreadsheet

[low vault]

idk im just going off my internships this year lol. both are well-known companies