Getting land screwed feels real bad
#TEVAL BREW LETS GO
proper creek
broken hornet
Don't buy a fetch right now
thorn cosmos
Go through our lists. Sort by rarity. Archidekt will give you price ideas
proper creek
Even the mh3 one?
broken hornet
Yeah don't worry about fetches if you are on that strict a budget
A single fetch will not help in that instance
broken hornet
If you are buying 5 fetches you can easily afford a decent budget mana base alongside solid synergistic pieces
To upgrade your deck
proper creek
Oh?
broken hornet
Yeah
proper creek
I thought the decent mana base is like fetches and shock and stuff I didn't know there's alternative
Because you'll never replace those once u get it
proper creek
Alright I'm open for the idea
broken hornet
And it's more affordable than ever to fix your mana bade
Base
Let me do it tomorrow
It's 10 pm and I have work early tomorrow
So I don't have time
proper creek
Is this gonna be like verges and ridge and those other dual color lands from expac
broken hornet
It'll be signet lands, check lands, pain lands and the like
But just wait til tomorrow
I'll be home in about 20 hours
To be able to get that sorted
thorn cosmos
Getting one fetch is fine if you draw or mill it you can recur it every turn.
You can also use things like
[[Broker hideout]] for multiple land drops per turn
smoky scarabBOT
thorn cosmos
There's many versions of that that get you the 3 colors you need
For budget restrictions
thorn cosmos
Ok were back with the focus being on building
thorn cosmos
[[Lotus field]] been stopping my field triggers
Losing too many lands with it I think.
smoky scarabBOT
Land
Hexproof
This land enters tapped.
When this land enters, sacrifice two lands.
: Add three mana of any one color.
thorn cosmos
Played a game lost to yuriko who did 11 damage 2 turns on turn 2 and 3. Hard to recover from that. Second game went infinite. Killed everyone bit the guy who had a platinum angel out.
Tried to use talon gates to phase out. He hexproofed it. Countered his game ender with Glen elandra. And then suspend and a talon gates again after gitrog sac to kill him
thorn cosmos
https://old.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/1k9sxh9/the_best_prismatic_mana_base_for_under_5/
@proper creek
Extreme budget mana base. Saw this and thought of you
proper creek
oh nice
glad heart
[[Lotus field]] been stopping my field triggers
Losing too many lands with it I...
For me it's been all about when it comes down
If it comes down too early, then I'm losing the fotd triggers yeah
But it is SUPER nice when you have Gitrog out
Sometimes you need to refill the "real" hand
thorn cosmos
Gitrog has been doing work and yea I'll need to time the land better
glad heart
Gitrog is truly an all star player in the 99 ngl
humble harness
im trying to understand how Lotus Field is stopping your field triggers (forgive me im not great at seeing combo lines), and im still getting up to speed on everything with magic again...
glad heart
im trying to understand how Lotus Field is stopping your field triggers (forgive...
No it's a valid question!
[[Lotus Field]]
smoky scarabBOT
Land
Hexproof
This land enters tapped.
When this land enters, sacrifice two lands.
: Add three mana of any one color.
glad heart
[[Field of the dead]]
smoky scarabBOT
Land
This land enters tapped.
: Add 
.
Whenever this land or another land you control enters, if you control seven or more lands with different names, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token.
glad heart
Field of the dead doesn't work until you have 7 more more lands total with different names
glad heart
Lotus Field, requires you to sacrifice two other lands
Bringing your total, assuming you were at 7, down to 5
Field of the doesn't work for two turns now
humble harness
so is it only that combo?
glad heart
Assuming you whiff on Teval and have no ways to play lands from GY
humble harness
i was thinking there was something else i was missing
humble harness
got it okay, just wanted to make sure there wasnt some other magical land thing i was missing
glad heart
Cause it allows for fast mana acceleration, and triggers some other cards, and gives Teval targets, but if it comes down at the wrong time it's not gonna be useful for us because FotD is one of the key pieces to the deck
humble harness
for sure, i just wanted to make sure there was nothing outside of FotD that i was missing
glad heart
for sure, i just wanted to make sure there was nothing outside of FotD that i wa...
Well lotus field is useful for getting more [[Gitrog Monster]] triggers
smoky scarabBOT
humble harness
yeah yeah..i meant the 'stopping triggers'
glad heart
Oh yeah lotus field only has a that small anti-synergy with field of the dead
Which, in the grand scheme of what the deck does? Not that big of a problem
It can be worked around if you can control when you play lotus field
quiet copper
I feel like if you play lotus field + FotD you want to use a lot of crucible effects
thorn cosmos
So lotus field enters and if you a field of the dead trigger then sac 2 lands
If you don't already have 7 lands it's tough to play lotus field
I might actually cut it
quiet copper
Yeah. I think in a 3c deck it's also generally worse. I have it in my Yuma deck but it wants you to sacrifice lands.
thorn cosmos
At that point it's an opportunity cost of more zombies vs more mana. But that translates into more blocks and sacrifice effects and such
quiet copper
Yeah, as I said, I think the two of them together have some very specific deck construction requirements
Are you running [[pit of offerings]]?
smoky scarabBOT
Land — Cave
This land enters tapped.
When this land enters, exile up to three target cards from graveyards.
: Add .
: Add one mana of any of the exiled cards' colors.
quiet copper
Theoretically it can spot remove some graveyard cards from opponents and make a zombie by removing one of your cards.
thorn cosmos
Are you running [[pit of offerings]]?
Great land and I own multiple. I might cut the lotus one and use that
And not for my own stuff but yes I can for my own stuff
quiet copper
I view exiling one of my own GY cards to that land like it's a chrome mox
thorn cosmos
Yes a multi colored one off a teval Trigger is pretty fucking sweet
And you can hit 3 different graveyards at once
I'm convinced
thorn cosmos
Field of the doesn't work for two turns now
Well, if you didn't make a land drop right, you start at 7, get back lotus field. Sac 2 so you go from 8 to 6. You'll need another land from hand to get back to triggers. Doesn't always happen
If you did make a land drop you are at 6. You'll be at 7 again next turn.
I've been going down to like 4 or 5 lands which is my mistake
Gitrog is real good here.
I played against brudivac and he doubles all mill so I was milling 6 with treval and blossoming
Brudivac player "never against against a gy deck" no shit sherlock
glad heart
Brudivac player "never against against a gy deck" no shit sherlock
I had a Brudivac player get real cocky at the LGS last night against my Teval
"I can mill you faster than you get value"
Let's see 🙂
Turn 3, I looped [[Chthonian Nightmare]] enough to get back [[Grave Reaver]]
smoky scarabBOT
Enchantment
When this enchantment enters, you get 
(three energy counters).
Pay X , Sacrifice a creature, Return this enchantment to its owner's hand: Return target creature card with mana value X from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate only as a sorcery.
smoky scarabBOT
glad heart
Now anytime he was milling me, my board was just getting STUPID
I think I untapped with like 28 zombies
thorn cosmos
I had a Brudivac player get real cocky at the LGS last night against my Teval
You didn't need to explain past this haha.
I don't have enough 3 cmc or less in my list for cthonian njghtmare
Brudivac is only good if you can mill a library all at once
broken hornet
I had a Brudivac player get real cocky at the LGS last night against my Teval
Mill players have exactly 1 braincell
glad heart
You didn't need to explain past this haha.
I don't have enough 3 cmc or less in ...
You have my list, nightmare can loop out to get any of my creatures out very easily
It's actually possible for me to mill out my whole library and win with lab man via looping Lumra, but it has to go perfectly
thorn cosmos
14 things to grab most important is e wit
I have 12 things to grab
Some upgrades. Not sure if cratferhoof is going in
Or sylvan scrying
Mossborn will replace nanagorger
Blasphemous will replace meathook
First time I've seen a cratferhoof for under 20. Picked up a foil one for 15 shipped
broken hornet
Id run cthonian nightmare if I felt I had enough 2-3 drops to properly loop it tbh but I run enough 5 and 6 drops for it to not be viable.
austere dew
Yeah I’m in the same boat
Though now I’ve got an idea for a goofy alternate build with a small energy package, using cards like [[Nissa, Worldsoul Speaker]] and [[Roil Cartographer]].
I don’t think it would be any good, but it does sound funny
smoky scarabBOT
Legendary Creature — Elf Druid
Landfall — Whenever a land you control enters, you get (two energy counters).
You may pay eight rather than pay the mana cost for permanent spells you cast.
"Zendikar still seems so far off, but Chandra is my home."
3/3
Creature — Merfolk Rogue
Landfall — Whenever a land you control enters, you get (an energy counter).
, Pay six : Draw three cards.
"The world shifts constantly, but that doesn't mean it can't be mapped. Our maps must shift as well."
1/3
broken hornet
https://scryfall.com/card/drc/13/nissa-worldsoul-speaker
That flavour text makes me cry it's wholesome
glad heart
That flavour text makes me cry it's wholesome
Nissa and Chandra are probably the most stable and wholesome of the planeswalker couples
Which kinda makes sense given their typical color alignment, red and green are best buds
You like creatures? Hell yeah. You like mana surges? Hell yeah. You like fighting stuff? Hell yeah. Did we just become best friends? YUP
broken hornet
I love Nissa and Chandra the 2 "cross dress" (complicated don't ask) cosplays I'd do are Liliana and Nissa
And if I did a Nissa I'd want a Chandra with me
broken hornet
Is this still Teval related?
It's sometimes hard to shift a conversation happening in one channel as it flows organically from a point in another channel
But I get it I'll drop it
thorn cosmos
I don't care as long as it's having fun
If you were going to do an energy subtheme
I'd probably run [[dreamtide whale]] and a few other things.
This one's insane for proliferation
smoky scarabBOT
thorn cosmos
With the fallout cards you can go the radiation counter route as well
[[Master transcendent]] might pick this up. Probably pretty good early game to tap and take anyone's creatures
smoky scarabBOT
Legendary Artifact Creature — Mutant
When The Master enters, target player gets two rad counters.
: Put target creature card in a graveyard that was milled this turn onto the battlefield under your control. It's a green Mutant with base power and toughness 3/3. (It loses its other colors and creature types.)
2/4
austere dew
If you were going to do an energy subtheme
I'd probably run [[dreamtide whale]]...
eh I don't think this is the right deck to do an energy subtheme in. I'll probably end up making a new deck from scratch for this idea
thorn cosmos
Yea. I'll surprised none of us are doing undying or persist creatures. I have kelpe and Glen elandra but there's more
broken hornet
So realistically you can do stuff like rad counters and energy counters stuff but it needs to have either of 2 prerequisites
It needs to be solid standalone cards that can be roleplayers on their own at a solid rate.
Or you need to play a critical mass of them to be a functioning consistent subtheme
I'd also warn against stuff like proliferates unless you are in a more highly focused deck around those things
austere dew
Yeah I agree that proliferate would not be good to pair with an energy subtheme unless you have other counter stuff as well. The unfortunate thing is, most of those standalone good energy card that you're referring to are in white, so its hard to do that in this deck
broken hornet
And 3 cards don't make a sizable package
Cthonian nightmare breaks this because it actually does a fair amount on its own being a repeatable unearth
Especially when the other 2 require more work for their pay offs
thorn cosmos
I picked up multiple copies of [[worthy cost]] and [[strategic betrayal]] and ainok wayfarer
And a copy of [[the mycotyrant]] I saw it in someone's list and I'm going token drain focus so it made sense for me
thorn cosmos
I'll be slotting these in the deck and some others
austere dew
Descend doesn't target
austere dew
It would be via mill, yeah
humble harness
like cycling a gravecrawler or something would work
humble harness
yeah i had to double read it, for whatever reason i thought it was from battlefield
thorn cosmos
for mycotyrant what is your target for the descend?
So I have teval. The grave reaver. Blossoming tortoise. And yea potential to go infinite with gravecrawler sac and recursion. Also with tortured existence.
Plenty of opportunities. I'm token focused and drain focused so if I have [[mirkwood bats]] out and go to end step I can drain for at least 3 if not more
smoky scarabBOT
humble harness
So I have teval. The grave reaver. Blossoming tortoise. And yea potential to go ...
yeah i know your token focus, thats why i was wondering what the way to get more mycotyrant fungi tokens would be
more of a question of 'what was the strategy' so i understood
thorn cosmos
Just exist as teval pretty much lol
humble harness
yeah so the mill right? again, sorry for the stupid questions, just trying to work through my head logic. I cant always see combos/lines without physically playing those cards out in a test game or something
austere dew
It’s both mill and sacrifice. The deck puts things in the GY all the time so “if you descended this turn” is basically not a requirement.
thorn cosmos
yeah so the mill right? again, sorry for the stupid questions, just trying to wo...
Yes. The deck descends every turn that there isn't a wipe. It's a passive value engine that must be answered.
Like [[mossborn hydra]] if I play 6 lands with this out, someone dies.
smoky scarabBOT
thorn cosmos
You have to answer the threat. The threat is never teval. Teval is the engine that empowers the threats
If I mill 9 in a turn and make 9 tokens. You have to answer a 10 trample next turn
Ans turn after that it's 20
It's a way to put pressure on the game. To force wipes. And answers early.
Liken I've had [[scute swarm]] get exiled before the turn ended that I cast it on
smoky scarabBOT
humble harness
If I mill 9 in a turn and make 9 tokens. You have to answer a 10 trample next tu...
for clarification..ive been playing through the precon slightly upgraded in a progressive league (every week i can swap up to 7 cards) and just trying to see where i want to take it long term, so understanding the thought process is interesting to me
Ive also been extremely bad at building decks in the past so learning from others ideas is why im asking the questions
sorry for the nuance
thorn cosmos
You dint have to apologize
thorn cosmos
for clarification..ive been playing through the precon slightly upgraded in a pr...
I would swap all the high cmc creatures that do nothing for the deck. I took out everything but grave reaver
humble harness
yeah im already WAY down that road. I was talking more of what do i want teval to do
mostly from ideas from this thread
thorn cosmos
yeah im already WAY down that road. I was talking more of what do i want teval t...
You want teval to not die. And attack every turn without being blocked or dying at least. And you want a land in your gy at least one for him to trigger and ramp you
humble harness
lol for sure, i more of meant the deck direction, but for sure
austere dew
Teval is kinda like a sling shot. It gets the deck going, and accelerates your gameplan, but its not the thing that actually wins the game.
Its very powerful in the early game, but not as strong in the late game, so you need to use that boost it gives you in the early game to reach some other form of win condition
thorn cosmos
lol for sure, i more of meant the deck direction, but for sure
That's really up to you
thorn cosmos
Its very powerful in the early game, but not as strong in the late game, so you ...
Thus is why I go for drain. Because wipes and shit happen. And I'll have tons of creatures out. So I can make you pay for it
broken hornet
https://scryfall.com/card/tdm/94/strategic-betrayal
I think there is this obsession exile being so much better than destroy that is kinda just wrong.
It hitting a card in yard is neat, but at sorcery speed that doesn't matter. And sorcery speed removal < instant speed.
I'd straight up just play [[infernal grasp]] over this.
If you are going exile a single card in a graveyard, you want that effect to be instant speed so you can respond to the thing that is pulling stuff out to begin with. It forces out mana and potentially a card or a once per turn resource or the like and causing it to fizzle. If you're doing it at sorcery speed you'd want it to be off the back of something like bojuka bog where it hits the whole yard.
As for removal destroy isn't so much better than exile that you would run something sorcery speed over an instant speed removal spell that destroys. Or a lower cost removal spell that destroys. The lower the cost of a card and whether it's instant speed or not changes the flexibility of it, and the more flexible tools are better
smoky scarabBOT
thorn cosmos
I think there is this obsession exile being so much better than destroy that is ...
It's an edict. It gets around targeting the creature. And it targets the player. It also gets around targeting the graveyard.
Between my bounces, counters and destroy effects which I have in the deck, this is a good gy exile spell with creature removal as a cherry on top.
Single creature decks like ygra and such it's much more potential
The worthy cost is a creature or planeswalker. Who cares if it's sorcery speed. I have zombies to sac. It's 1 cmc removal.
Destroy can be stopped. Targeting can be stopped. Exile is only stopped with a counter or hexproof/shroud
Plus there's titans that are indestructible. Tons of huge eldrazi. Avacyn.
The ojer gods that flip can only be exiled. The gods that come back from the gy lile scarab God can only be exiled or they just come back
And strategic is all the gy not one card
[[Baleful mastery]] dod that come in the precon? Amazing card that permanently deals with an issue
smoky scarabBOT
Instant
You may pay 
rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
If the cost was paid, an opponent draws a card.
Exile target creature or planeswalker.
thorn cosmos
I'm still waiting on my elvish reclaimer. Once that shows up and these 2 removal spells amd mycotyrant, think I'm good on the build. It is nearing completion. Still needs testing for those cards. I can always swap something else back in
broken hornet
Misread strategic it's a little better. But the removal being a single target edict makes it worse.
If you're doing edicts and want that effect at 2 mana and sorcery I'd still love accursed marauder. It's a 3 for 1.
Unless your pod is omega heavy in indestructible or the specific cases of scarab god. It's not worth the niche for exile over better rate cards.
As for baleful mastery, I like it, it's a solid rate and an opponent drawing is good when you can pick the opponent for politics or the like.
Don't hyperfixate on exile though unless it's really that hyperfocused to your pod and even then that's not really a wide suggestion thing because that's a pod specific thing.
Like destroy isn't so much worse than exile that you should consider destroy completely awful
thorn cosmos
Like destroy isn't so much worse than exile that you should consider destroy com...
I agree with this. And your accursed marauder point is 100% true
[[Virtues maneuver]]
smoky scarabBOT
broken hornet
Also if your meta is Voltron, tonne of hexproof, indestructible and the like, are you okay? Like are you having fun? That sounds really really unfun. And second the stuff that you need to deal with that falls under tech choices or metagame choices and those aren't really meant to be broadstrokes suggestions for people for general discussion. If you get what I mean.
thorn cosmos
I'm fine I only don't want to deal with Deadpool
I hate him like I hate tergrid
If you have ideas on that I'm all ears
Right now I just make sure I don't cast commander before he's out
They can't help it they go for first commander out to steal
broken hornet
Theres not much that answers those specifically in the cards you recommend. But also rule 0 if they get too frustrating is a valid tool
Especially for tergrid
thorn cosmos
I just don't play against her
broken hornet
That's a valid option
thorn cosmos
Rapid hybrid and pongify are great options. They give them a 3/3 but is a good one.
Another reason I give exile more weight in general is because they don't get death triggers. And they can't get it back. Unless it's suspended with suspend or delay
broken hornet
Suspend as removal is just bad
humble harness
any thoughts on [[Golgari Thug]]
It popped up on a combo line with Colossal Grave-Reaver (and Altar of Dementia), not sure if that is too narrow of a use case, but the Dredge and Top of Deck can be useful, and just a Sack outlet to topdeck a graveyard card + teval trigger without the other two pieces
smoky scarabBOT
broken hornet
any thoughts on [[Golgari Thug]]
It popped up on a combo line with Colossal Gra...
It's a dredge card in a self mill deck it's always going to be good
Like it's a solid card to run
Back onto removal, single target removal is often not fantastic in commander because it's never hitting more than one player so it's less efficient. So you need to find smaller ways for it to be more efficient, lower mana cost and instant speed allows you to hold up less resources for the removal and gives you the option to only use it when you desperately need to
So 1 mana removal that destroys tends to be better than 2 that exiles if both are instant
thorn cosmos
Had a teval mirror I had mossborn hydra at 124 power I should have killed him
I played a 2nd game where I constant mists And made a dude scoop to it first cast like turn 6 or 7. He was playing infect and trying to kill someone and was in the lead
Used delay to counter a wipe. Suspend to exile a reset life total angel and a Fumble to bounce it once they tried to give it hexproof
thorn cosmos
pretty interesting tech if you have a [[mimic vat]] out, and creatures die under your control, you can actually make them all go under it and back out if they all die together. so with a blashpemous edict for example
smoky scarabBOT
Artifact
Imprint — Whenever a nontoken creature dies, you may exile that card. If you do, return each other card exiled with this artifact to its owner's graveyard.
, : Create a token that's a copy of a card exiled with this artifact. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
thorn cosmos
it comes them leaving the GY and coming back
viscid shell
So I built a generic sultai landfall deck with glarb in the lead, but I feel like teval would actually be an even better option. I have teval in the 99 but has anyone gone the pure landfall route with teval and have you got thoughts?
thorn cosmos
Show the deck list
thorn cosmos
yea i would add a snow covered land of each basic type and swap out to teval you should be very ok
viscid shell
yea i would add a snow covered land of each basic type and swap out to teval you...
I actually prefer low basics for funny hermit Druid shenanigans. But if I did add basics I would probably also add more fetches which grab basics
thorn cosmos
scute swam ob nixilis and tireless provisioner are the only "landfall" things i see
and the crab
and duh field
asei and tatyova. cool
so some of the deck has things happen when lands hit
i'd cut eye of duskmantle
[[raul]] might fit here
smoky scarabBOT
thorn cosmos
[[raul trouble shooter]]
smoky scarabBOT
Legendary Creature — Zombie Mutant Rogue
Once during each of your turns, you may cast a spell from among cards in your graveyard that were milled this turn.
: Each player mills a card. (They each put the top card of their library into their graveyard.)
"Raul Alfonso Tejada, former gunslinger and sole survivor of Hidalgo Ranch, at your service."
1/4
viscid shell
scute swam ob nixilis and tireless provisioner are the only "landfall" things i ...
I mean I have almost all the landfall payoffs that exist in these colours so I can't really add any more. Yeah the duskmantle is a leftover from when I was more surveil heavy and had mirko in the deck
austere dew
So I built a generic sultai landfall deck with glarb in the lead, but I feel lik...
My Teval deck is probably the most landfall-esc of anyone in this thread, though I consider it more of a land toolbox deck than a landfall deck. Though I have played some landfall Glarb in the past as well
Glab and Teval do play on similar axes, but they are just different enough that I wouldn't freely swap one for the other. They have similar vibes, but their strategies are a bit different
viscid shell
Glab and Teval do play on similar axes, but they are just different enough that ...
Which do you find better to play?
austere dew
Which do you find better to play?
I vastly prefer teval, and the land toolbox style.
viscid shell
I don't have the budget for two decks which need all the fetches
viscid shell
I vastly prefer teval, and the land toolbox style.
Do you have a list?
austere dew
Do you have a list?
The first message in this thread has saved links to most of our decklists
So just push the button to scroll to the top
astral dirge
I tried to listen to the wise words of you guys here. I still want to play at a higher power level, but I took out the Thassa combo stuff.
thorn cosmos
[[Wickerfolk thresher]] seems steep for a 4 drop
Also [[reap]]
Dead without black on the field but pretty high ceiling
thorn cosmos
I tried to listen to the wise words of you guys here. I still want to play at a ...
Need shifting woodland.
Talon gates of madara.
Gaeas cradle
Worldly tutor. Mystical tutor. Cyc rift
astral dirge
Need shifting woodland.
Talon gates of madara.
Gaeas cradle
Thanks I keep hearing and seeing about the shifting and talon gates,
Would growing rites of itlimoc be suitable replacement for gaeas? Otherwise I do not have that access to gaeas (no proxies for my playgroup)
broken hornet
I would argue that gaeas cradle isn't so fundamentally important to the deck that you should worry about a replacement for it
astral dirge
Worldly tutor. Mystical tutor. Cyc rift
I think I have all those, I took our worldly but I want to put it back in, especially for the crab, crab does work
Thanks guys, helping me tune. Deck feels better to play and play against
thorn cosmos
Thanks I keep hearing and seeing about the shifting and talon gates,
Would growi...
Yea growing rites is great. And assuie is right it's not super important and if I wanted to cut it for growing rites and throw in crop rotation instead I actually could. I can also run growing rites but not sure what I would cut at this point
Keep in mind I'm trying to stay at 3 game changers. You have no limits in 4s
astral dirge
Thank you for your help, again!
broken hornet
[[growing rites of itlamoc]]
smoky scarabBOT
broken hornet
[[growing rites of itlimoc]]
smoky scarabBOT
Legendary Enchantment
When Growing Rites of Itlimoc enters, look at the top four cards of your library. You may reveal a creature card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
At the beginning of your end step, if you control four or more creatures, transform Growing Rites of Itlimoc.
Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun
Legendary Land
(Transforms from Growing Rites of Itlimoc.)
: Add 
.
: Add for each creature you control.
Though the Sun Empire and the River Heralds once came together to plant the sacred forest, its roots have been tended by the mycoids ever since.
broken hornet
Imma be real, it's really not that important a card to run. You can won't fault you, but doesn't seem so insane here over other lists
thorn cosmos
Tapping for 12 mana just because you have 12 creatures is petty good.
You could also run lands that copy other lands like Cabal coffers to make more insane mana.
If you like having a cradle effect it's easy to get to 4 creatures
Instead of cradle / growing rites
copy lands for example
broken hornet
Good/winmoar =/= important
Does it serve a fundamentally important role in the deck? Or is it icing on a cake when you are already doing the thing in an over the top way?
Like anyone who argues that cradle isn't completely fucked in a world where it's doing it's thing is high on drugs.
But it's importance to the deck does need to be highlighted and made apparant.
I might look like a dick for this, but I think if we are going to discuss cards, we need to be aware of what we are saying and be specific. Especially if we are going to recommendations to other people for their decks.
This is all in service of long term constructive conversation about how we discuss building teval.
thorn cosmos
Well since they are going for a bracket 4 deck card selection is more important and have to have more impact and faster impact and that's fine.
But important doesn't mean fun either. We're not talking about cedh. Dude can have pet cards if he wants and if he likes the thought of growing rites more power to him. He can always slot it out if it underperforms
There's no right or wrong style of building. That's kind of the point.
We should do a 4 way teval mirror match and see what's up
broken hornet
You're arguing for a stance that doesn't actually contest what I am saying.
If you have pet cards you want to run, do it. Literally just do it. If you want to run a card because its fun. Fucking do it. An opinion from someone online shouldn't change that. But if someone is asking on an objective front if a card is good in the deck. We need to be realistic and honest and its a completely different conversation than one about personal preference or pet cards.
If Lolking, wants to run growing rites of itlimoc in their list because they just want to play with that kind of effect, more power to them. I am hella on board with that.
But if we want to have a constructive conversation we have to be able to put personal preference aside and speak objectively too.
For isntance, if you want to keep running suspend in your deck because you like it, more power to you. If you want to argue that its actually good removal or better than the alternatives when it objectively isn't, you are having a completely different conversation.
Ya get me?
I want to build a few decks with wheel of misfortune in them. I don't think its particularly a good card, or even a card with synergy. I just really fucking like it. But if someones red deck doesnt have it, im not going to sit there and say "run wheel of misfortune" or recomend it becuase thats not in service to the conversation. Its literally my favourite card in commander, but its definetly not constructive to argue its anything more than that in decks that arent nekusar and the like.
I feel like what I am saying shouldn't be controversial. You are arguing for a valid point of view, but think that it makes it constructive whne trying to talk about objective reality when it really really isn't.
Its a question of intent. Behind giving advice and asking for it.
If someone asks for help with making their deck better, saying your pet card is best doesnt help, or your personal preference with removal doesn't help and the like. Or even how you engage with proxies. And its the same with me.
If someone asks "what are some fun cards peeps are running in their deck" im going to point out my for the funnies cards in every one of my lists.
so it all goes back to
is the card actually realisitcally that important to making the deck better?
no
is it a powerful effect and can it see value
absolutely
the person who is recieving that information is then informed
and can just pick whether they want to play it or not with that information
but when they do they can be assured they have all the things they need to decide on that
If you really really want a cradle like effect in your teval deck and you arent shelling out for cradle itself, by all means run growing rites. But if you want to know if it is actually that importnat to the deck, absolutely not.
thorn cosmos
i'm not arguing anything. suspend is a good card lol.
my personal preferences are there for them to take and do what they want with them. that's the point of this. we all contribute, and then use the knowledge we all contributed in the best way we all personally see fit.
they are making a bracket 4 deck, they will need to cheat mana. or combo out faster than everyone else. some kind of edge. up to them how they will get there
broken hornet
Objectively suspend is not a good removal card. If it was it would see vastly more play than its alternatives. That's an objective fact. Stop acting as if your pet card is the best. Run suspend all you want but stop lying to yourself and others.
Growing rites gets its value after the deck already starts doing it's thing in an axis that doesn't immediately work with the core shenanigans of doing stuff with your yard. If it comes online it's insane, but it's not an immediate synergy piece and isn't important.
If you're gonna recommend your pet cards include the context as to what it is
"Hey this isnt a commonly run card I like it for these reasons, but also these are the ways it can fall short" that way people actually have the context they need, especially when there has been 2 new players in this thread who will take your word as gospel. You need to at least be honest with them.
So again, it's not an important card in the deck, it's a very good card when you are starting to do your thing, but it isn't immediately important to the strategy and doesn't fulfil a niche that is absolutely needed.
If you want to run these cards with the added context by all means. But at least now the added context has been provided.
humble harness
Objectively suspend is not a good removal card. If it was it would see vastly mo...
what would you recommend as an alternative to Growing Rites...it was on my original plan to use instead of Gaea's
( sorry i know im interjecting, but it is a brew thread afterall )
broken hornet
what would you recommend as an alternative to Growing Rites...it was on my origi...
I'm just going to rephrase so it comes off easier.
The effect itself isn't that important to the deck. It will get value in the deck for sure and even be insane.
If you are wanting the cradle like effect still, and either dont want to proxy and/or cannot afford or see a reason to want to buy a cradle, absolutely run it.
All I am doing is just trying to get the added point across that it isn't that important but at the end for all the context.
You can't make an informed decision without all of that info.
Im just trying to make sure everyones on the same page about discussing cards honestly
because I can sit here and just jam all the fun cards into a thread and just not add the context that its just the fun cards
and people like lupus who is both new and on a budget might be mistaken into thinking im adding good cards they can think about
which has happened a few times in this thread
humble harness
Oh i have a cradle, i just dont want to pull it out of the deck its in to put it in here. Additionally, where I am playing doesnt allow proxy cards (theyre are a tournament shop) so I dont want to risk it even with the really good looking ones
broken hornet
a better way of putting it. Rhystic study is a very good card, and can absolutely see value in teval. But its not important to the deck. You may not even be hurting your deck by playing it. I am just adding the context that it isn't vital to the deck.
does that all make sense?
humble harness
i dont even know if kyoshi is active anymore right now lol
broken hornet
i am being very very pedantic, but I am autistic, and I know for a fact that if i were new to magic looking at some of the cards suggested and discussion around them, I would easily be misled into doing things like:
- Buying a singular fetch instead of working on a budget mana base first and prioritising something functional before going for more expensive upgrades
- thinking pet cards automatically makes them good
- that good strictly means important
Especially when some of the suggestions aren't made with the intent being made clear.
https://moxfield.com/decks/EtlwS_5W4UKwjF_W8J00gQ
I put this together for lupus the other day after one of the discussions concerning them being worried about mana fixing and "yeah a fetch will be good" was thrown out there
because telling someone who is struggling to consider buying a ripples of undeath because price range
DEFINITELY cannot be recomended a fetch lands
over something like this
where they own msot of it and are just missing 3-4 cards totaling the cost of a single fetch
and will serve them in the long term while they upgrade the rest of their deck under their budget
But again, at the end of the day, I am just stressing objective reality and adding full context.
If someone wants to run a card, at the end of the day its their decision, this isn't cedh.
broken hornet
on the topic of suspend to properly put that argument to rest.
now some added context around the data and the caveats around that added context.
To be fair to suspend, part of the numbers is how often cards get reprinted in precons specifically too. HOWEVER, wotc have also being making attempts to make sure the removal put into each deck list is actually at least decent. And if pongify and rapid hybridization are getting reprinted more than suspend, that probably tells you something about the quality of the card.
Chances are, and I havent even started to look at that data, but I am 99.99999999999% the data will reflect this. In decks that are monoblue and/or don't have access to the colours with better removal of that nature, you will not see suspend and you will actually see those 2 floating around in CEDH. The format where powerlevel objectively matters and if a card is objectively at that role it wont see play.
Suspend is a BAD removal spell. Objectively. There is no debate on this. Its a blatant fact.
IF you want to run it, I don't care, do what you want. But do NOT pretend or even state that its objectively better than the other tools available for its job. It is not. And especially don't seek to tell other people it is. It doesn't have any inherit synergy in teval either, which is what you need to look for if you are planning on running an inferior card over a superior option.
I went into the cedh data base and clicked through and took screen caps of the first few decks (especially the mono blue one that popped up) no suspend and a smattering of the others, you can see the black removal spells are btter that the blue ones which isn't much of a surprise but the mono blue weren't running suspend at all.
I can go through the rest some other time if i can be bothered but at this point it should be obvious that suspend is not a good removal spell.
the website btw
just for context
thorn cosmos
I went into the cedh data base and clicked through and took screen caps of the f...
I'm not playing cedh. You aren't either with this deck.
Its all a point of reference.
The crusade against suspend can end.
thorn cosmos
because telling someone who is struggling to consider buying a ripples of undeat...
We're way past this.
I'd prefer if we got back on track
broken hornet
I reference cedh so that we had a point of reference that it's not just play rates in casual because those cards get reprinted more.
I just want you to stop lying to people especially those who are new. Youre going to keep saying some really really misleading things to people and cause them to make bad decisions. especially financially
viscid shell
Fetches and graveyard land recursion other than teval can be so terrifying
9 lands out on turn 4 is not uncommon
But their price is a blocker
My zimone deck would be torn apart for a sultai landfall deck if I were to make it, but need to work out the commander before I commit
broken hornet
I just want you to accept that suspend isn't as good as the other options and people can play what ever they want at the end of the day
I legitimately wouldn't care if it wasn't already going to cause budget players to make bad financial decisions
viscid shell
I just want you to accept that suspend isn't as good as the other options and pe...
It's not as good as say, rapid hyb, pongify, or reality shift yeah
broken hornet
It's not as good as say, rapid hyb, pongify, or reality shift yeah
He's arguing it's better and giving bad advice to people who cannot afford the bad advice
viscid shell
And if you're not in mono blue, you should be looking at those first
In sultai I wouldn't even look at mono blue removal when black exists...
Suspend probably is great in time counter decks or super friends
thorn cosmos
I reference cedh so that we had a point of reference that it's not just play rat...
I need to you stop using words like lying. And other aggressive notes. This isn't the first time. So again. Cut it out
@quiet copper
thorn cosmos
I just want you to accept that suspend isn't as good as the other options and pe...
I accept that you don't like suspend over other options. I don't have to accept anything else. You should let it go
thorn cosmos
It's not as good as say, rapid hyb, pongify, or reality shift yeah
It gets around Indestructible. And it's 1 cmc vs reality shift that's 2. I run it for my own preference and that's fine.
90% of the time the creature that is suspended never makes it back before game end. I remember it happening once time and it was a commander and the dude waited the full 3 turns for it to come back
broken hornet
If it was recognised as a good card, the data and other people would actually say so
Like just accept that it's a pet card and pet cards don't have to be good
thorn cosmos
Yea buddy it's bracket 3 I know that already
broken hornet
Just say it when you talk about these kinds of cards
That way someone new coming in has context and isn't going to buy suspend for their decks thinking it's better than in actually is
I just want to be able to make sure that when we are discussing cards we are keeping in mind we have had new people in here and they come for advice
And to look at ideas
A d if they see the one guy keep saying suspend is good, regardless of intent they're going to keep thinking it's good and if they're on a budget wasting money
Which is really really bad
thorn cosmos
You aren't the card and build police. And again you are really going off track
broken hornet
Man you are just the absolute worst person for new people to ever get advice from
W/e
I played teval today peeps and the new changes were a fucking dream
Jarad sacking big stompys killed a few players and I won around the Elish norn player cutting off Kelpie draws
thorn cosmos
I pinged you
Because again this has been getting off track. And I'm being called a liar and a worst person to get advice from. So can we clean this up
And maybe ask some folks to chill out
broken hornet
I just want if we're going to discuss cards especially with new people we speak with full context and not do stuff like recommend new budget players buy fetch lands right off the gate and speak objectively
And I'm pedantic about it
quiet copper
Yeah, chilling out on this is probably a good idea.
broken hornet
Because it's going to lead to problems
I just need him to say he understands because this shit is actually important
quiet copper
This thread isn't specific to new players
broken hornet
I know it's not, but the problem is, he has actively told people directly
Who said they are budget and new
To do stuff like buy fetches
And I'm trying to make sure we aren't doing stuff like that
Because that's genuinely bad practice long term
quiet copper
...
broken hornet
I have screen caps of that
A few people have said they have specific constraints budget or otherwise and he has ignored it to recommend things that is financially irresponsible anyway
quiet copper
Ok, so, people don't have to listen to him?
I understand that you feel it's immoral but I think you need to step back from this
broken hornet
"I'm gonna recommend people do something dumb and if I get questioned I'm going to act like the other person is an asshole and ignore their follow ups"
The fetch thing literally had me say "don't do this that's bad advice" and that was a problem for him too
quiet copper
Again. I'm asking for you to pull back on thism
viscid shell
The fetch thing literally had me say "don't do this that's bad advice" and that ...
He is giving bad advice, you have given your view, I don't think there is much more you can do at this point. Arguing more won't get anywhere.
broken hornet
It seems like a shitty thing to just let happen but w/e
I guess new players can get fucked when he's around
quiet copper
I think this thread needs to be closed but also this isn't something you need to police
broken hornet
I want to discuss the deck and have objectively fair discussions that are beneficial, but it doesn't work if everyone isn't going to be on the same page
Like if a card is a pet card talk about it but add that caveat
That's all I want
viscid shell
I want to discuss the deck and have objectively fair discussions that are benefi...
Everyone doesn't need to be on the same page, everything here is opinion and we can have differing opinions. Even individual pods might make those opinions right or wrong.
broken hornet
I mean I want to discuss them in those merits too
quiet copper
That may be a good time to make your own thread on the deck though
viscid shell
So, suspend is not a widely played card, because of the ability to recast later. But if your meta has a lot of indestructible, it can be objectively better than alternatives. So there is no objective truth around cards.
broken hornet
And I guess I have to roll with the fucked shit
broken hornet
So, suspend is not a widely played card, because of the ability to recast later....
I said this alot earlier when talking about how removal can change based on regular pod composition
I actually said this and it was unacknowledged
quiet copper
Because, I understand what you're trying to do, and it's admirable but, again. you're not responsible for enforcing the rules on this server.
broken hornet
Like I'm all about talking about cards and adding nitty gritty context
And we should absolutely do that
Especially when talking about pet cards
I just want honest not misleading conversations
quiet copper
And, at this point @broken hornet , going after @thorn cosmos for bad advice is closer to being in violation of the rules than bad advice.
viscid shell
If we can mislead and do silly things I find immoral
I can feel your autistic need for justice and correctness, and I feel for you, and I absolutely agree with you here. It can be hard to accept that even though you feel you are right and have presented your view, people still disagree or disregard you. Take this as a learning moment - some people will always disagree, no matter what you say or what evidence you provide.
I'm not saying this as "you are autistic and so you don't understand" - I'm saying "I am autistic, and I understand you"
I've been there, seriously.
quiet copper
Again. I'm closing this thread.
broken hornet
And, at this point <@190756475168227328> , going after <@122501073243078658> for...
W/E he can say what he wants I'll just block and ignore and hope peeps don't listen to bad advice
quiet copper
That sounds like a good plan
broken hornet
I'm not saying this as "you are autistic and so you don't understand" - I'm sayi...
I got your meaning, I've been misled specifically by people like him before
Specifically because I had no way of knowing better
And it financially fucked me