All Clear Nerf is too heavy

[obtuse storm]

Ye

Not gonna lie I barely notice when my opponent uses 4w unless they get the rng quad

And even then it’s usually fine

not that I encounter 4w that often anyway

[broken brook]

again problem with tsd spam is there's always a chance of rng kills

[dusk marsh]

then what

[obtuse storm]

This was a “problem” in s1 too

Idk if anyone complained about it tho

Like you said it’s rng and even then it’s usually not crazy oppressive or anything

[broken brook]

oh i think i remember why tsd spam sucks
you're left with cheese while they're left with clean

[obtuse storm]

Huh

[dusk marsh]

what is pco

[obtuse storm]

Lol

[obtuse storm]

The clean is supposed to cancel the cheese

[dusk marsh]

even if u dont care just sdpccc

2 lines

[obtuse storm]

Additionally tsd spamming is more efficient than 4w

[broken brook]

in general yeah b2b spamming does stop 4w

.....eeexcept when the c4w stalls for rng garbage holes

[obtuse storm]

huh

[dusk marsh]

what

[obtuse storm]

That just gives you more time to b2b spam them

[dusk marsh]

they're suppost to build it as fast as they can

[broken brook]

i think in that case the rng spike doesn't do much damage anyways even if it's >20 spike

since yknow b2b spam

definitely a little weaker now since b2b chain is now gone

[dusk marsh]

[broken brook]

not meaning they'll release it immediately

[dusk marsh]

what if upstack

[broken brook]

yeah that's a counter

hmm, considering consistency 4w can be done and is flexible but for t-spins you need lst?

[dusk marsh]

u can freestyle

maybe

[broken brook]

not consistent enough tbh since (this is probably a skill issue) i sometimes get stuck upstacking trying to find a setup

[dusk marsh]

4w is a easier pattern if u learn it ovbiously

but that doesnt mean there arent counters

[broken brook]

ultimately yeah there's a counter to 4w

[dusk marsh]

plus if you use pco ur also kinda relying on a bit of rng

[broken brook]

thanks, now i can counter those !!!!!!! who 4w'd me at tl a few days ago

[dusk marsh]

even if you learn every solve

[broken brook]

iirc pco with the I placed down from the first bag is around 50%?

or 70% i don't remember

[meager ledge]

70 ish i think

[broken brook]

1st pc sucks no matter what lmao

i see yeah

[meager ledge]

oh wait with I placed i actually dont know

[dusk marsh]

ok maybe time to leave

[meager ledge]

good choice

[obtuse storm]

61%

[obtuse storm]

Why would they not lmao

This isn’t ppt

[broken brook]

waiting for clean

[lusty carbon]

4w bad

matching ur opponents pps by b2b pressure, u can easily kill 4wide

atleast like 60% ngl (already underestimating)

if u call that unbalanced then idk

[broken brook]

just now yeah i realized it wasn't that unbalanced at all

but b2b pressure is a little inconsistent, sometimes you break it sometimes you don't have continuations sometimes you stack horribly

4w is less inconsistent i guess?

[obtuse storm]

They mega buffed b2b now lol wait

[lusty carbon]

no. they nerfed it

lst sucks

😭

[obtuse storm]

So old stick sends 22 with combo, new stick sends 22 minimum with combo break

[broken brook]

lst still kills tho

[broken brook]

minimum ,,,

[obtuse storm]

Since surge starts at 3 now

That’s like a lot right

It’s at least as good as old b2b until b2bx8 and then the surge is cheese

[broken brook]

yeah pretty much

[lusty carbon]

can u get 1-1-1-1 cheese surge

3 surge and a atk

[broken brook]

wait huh

is that more efficient than continuous b2b

[lusty carbon]

idk but it's funny lol

atk wise no

[broken brook]

okay so that strategy sends 2 less lines than straight b2b for every 4 hard line clears with a tsd/quad

if my math is correct

[humble granite]

Overall, I have a mixed feeling towards the balance changes for PCs.

First of all, I do think 5 is just enough to have something like a TDPC DPC loop be able to spike/counter c4w.

What I do hate after playing 10+ matches is that PC loops can now send cheese surge in the middle of their loop. Not only they gained cancel power, but they will also send cheese surge.

If you slow down to tank clean(assuming they even sent clean) then cancel the surge, this slow down just enables the opponent to continue the pc loop even further.

All-spins giving b2b, and the pc clear counting as b2b, as well as surge being b2bx3 for 3 1-1-1 cheese is just not a good balance.

For example SDPC -> DPC. There's 2 opportuntiies to cheese surge naturally while performing. If spdc kept b2b like tss->tsd->tss->quad PC. Or if sdpc breaks b2b but the pc solve all-spins + pc clear b2b -> tsd from dpc and quad/dpc clear.

Also faced an opponent who did PCO, 2nd pc DPC who also sent surge during the 2nd pc solve.

All clears sending 5 now, and then potential of having 3 surge basically makes it like 8 compared to the 10 from season 1.

And if pc setups get developed with keeping b2b via all-spins solves in mind. This will become a common occurence.

Personally I find surge cheese in the pc loops, makes PC loops even more oppressive than season 1 pc loops. Getting cheesed while the opponent continues to pc loop sending as much attacks as TSD spam in the form of cheese is a bit too much.

EIther b2b needed to activate surge needs to be moved up from b2bx3, or surge less cheesey or pc clears cant keept b2b.

[humble granite]

an example of what i mean by more oppressive, after the first sdpc dpc is done, its very highly the next pc loop will send surge as well.

So basically high chance to surge during the first pc dpc loop

guarantee to cheese surge if more than 1 loop is done

and the attacks sent is more than tsd spam

i find it more oppressive to deal with with than season 1 pc loops

also forgot to mentioned 14 piece cancel

gl stopping sdpc

or 1st PC

if 4l pc spam keeping b2b surge is developed its gonna be worse

[marble hedge]

i have held 11 b2b untill opponent died pure pc

with +1 per pc

not even trying

i think 5 damage pc is fine

[brisk dome]

i quite like it

yeah

[obtuse storm]

This is just one example

I have tried to pc loop lots of times too and there is heavy amounts of rng involved and reaching b2bx11 is not to be expected at all

[marble hedge]

i just said i got it once

so doing it intentionally is possible

but you gotta learn alot of shit atleast to do it pure pc

untill loops are discovered

[rapid turtle]

I prefer midgame pc be worth more

[brisk dome]

if midgame pc sends the same as opener pc then it usually is worth more than opener

because in opener the other player expects pcs

or a lot of clean flying around in general

[rapid turtle]

PC should only add to b2b. Instead of +5 garbage you get +5 b2b.

[zinc vale]

can we make it like 8 or 9 but each time a pc happen, next pc -2 lines

[zinc vale]

bro really hate pc 😭

[gritty mango]

STOP ALL CLEARING

-# jstris reference

[lusty carbon]

opener mains that dedicated their days to learning pc mode: ok

[hidden cove]

i mean it still works if you do it fast

[rapid turtle]

PC should get weaker the more you do

But stronger the more time passes

PC should send a random amount of lines between 1 and 20

[hard marsh]

Let's go gambling!

[wide sky]

PC Ramping
Not saying that opener PC loops are op right now or anything, but this is more a thought experiment that PC damage doesn't have to be a flat value, so critique at will.

What if PC's started weak, but became stronger as you performed more? This properly rewards the difficulty of consecutive PC's (especially 4th) and creates a fantasy of building up power. Importantly, this nerfs opener pc loops at round start, allowing more counterplay to the PC loop shenanigans. Should the opener PC loop go uninterrupted, it can also ramp, but ramps slower than consecutive PC's, as befitting the difficulty of execution.

If the 1st PC is within the first 10 pieces, send 10 lines instead. This retains the original "feel" of PCO, for players who want to start with a cleaner game, can threaten the tall openers that spike a lot, and does not help opener pc loops.

1st PC: 2 lines, +1 b2b. (Within first 10 pieces, send 10 lines instead.)
2nd PC: 3 lines, +1 b2b
3rd PC: 4 lines, +1 b2b
4th PC: 5 lines, +2 b2b
5th PC: 6 lines, +2 b2b
6th PC: 7 lines, +2 b2b
7+ PC: 8 lines, +3 b2b

[rapid turtle]

I think I would prefer PC to give flat +1 b2b and send 4 lines, but that increases by +0.1 lines/second after 20 seconds.

This rewards midgame pc

I might adjust 4 and 20 to 5 and 30

[wide sky]

That's an elegant solution to reward midgame PC. I like your idea of scaling PC damage with time.

Though, I still think the first 10 pieces should send 10 lines to threaten greedy openers like extended sdpc spin.

[wide sky]

it would be kinda funny to see C ranks do a slow, full damage PC, and as they get faster at PC, it does less damage

[viscid hull]

i wonder if this might just encourage longer loops like bt

although im not too sure if bt was loopable

[obtuse storm]

I think this leads to 2 cases

[viscid hull]

but a good 35 piece loop may be discovered

[obtuse storm]

Either the loop breaks early because pcs are way too weak

Or the loop doesn’t break and pcs become unbeatable after a few of them

[viscid hull]

a thought i had is what if pcs scaling carried through to next round

[obtuse storm]

And it’s extremely easy to pc loop fast with dpc

[viscid hull]

so you could have whole game strategy, not just individual round strategies

[rapid turtle]

No. I strongly disagree. Rounds are supposed to be independent of each other; that's literally the point of having FTx

[viscid hull]

valorant rounds are ft13 yet each round is not independent

[round hedge]

This isn’t a tactical fps

[wide sky]

Yes, PC's eventually become unbeatable, but how do you get there with the weak early pressure? Importantly, there's a weakness built into the strength. To overcome the weakness to reach the strength makes a for a good storyline and gameplay fantasy. The weakness also puts more pressure on the looper to consider their own pressure relative to their opponent's, and naturally, we'll see fewer loopers that just win on purely the strength of the loop, and will play the game.

If the loop breaks, then play continues into the midgame, which is great. The looper would have a headstart in PC ramping, but it's very difficult to access, considering the current amount of cheese.

[obtuse storm]

in this case I don't see how you can balance PCs

either they're too weak for you to do anything or they become too strong and the set is just decided by unfun uninteractive gameplay

the thing about looping is either the opponent can't break the loop and it becomes overwhelming attack power, or the opponent can break the loop and the attack stops attacking

I don't see how you can balance it one way or the other if there's a ramping mechanic

[ebon ice]

If there’s a ramping mechanic you have to cap it

That way it don’t get too powerful

[wide sky]

Sounds like you're afraid that loops will be too weak, given the numbers I proposed.

You could be right. I don't know what the numbers should be, but the point is, it doesn't have to be flat value. Counter propose some numbers.

I also agree with what you're saying about interactive gameplay, and I'd say the key question is how much power should PC loop attacks have, before they are forced, perhaps prematurely, to midgame interaction?

[obtuse storm]

I'm saying I don't think this question has a real answer

how can you balance ramping PCs such that they have real power, but don't get too powerful

either they start off too weak for you to actually ramp your PCs

or they start off too powerful and become a sense of doom for your opponent while both of you wait for the PCs to scale up

this doesn't really change my point

anyways then sure, it's an 50% chance to autowin and 50% chance to go into midgame maybe

it's not really gambling since there wouldn't be a punishment for trying and failing

if the looping can't be cancelled for the time where it's "ramping up" then it's probably already too powerful lmao

like either the looping is too weak and can be cancelled

or it can't be cancelled but at that point it's already over isn't it

firstly if its easy to cancel at any point then it's basically useless

secondly i think this type of playstyle is pretty problematic

like it was like this in the old system where pcs sent 10 right

free win if big speed gap

"fair" otherwise

like we don't really want to encourage players to opener gaming because it's some free win strategy that's unfun to play against

thonk i don't think you have to necessarily define depth like that

[wide sky]

The speed and opener problem isn't new. The new thing is, is it desirable to enlarge the window to interrrupt the PC loop, to force the looper to midgame interaction?

Thus PC ramping has an inherent weak early game and strong late game, which opens a larger window for interaction.

Counter propose some numbers, if you feel it's too weak or too strong.

[obtuse storm]

what numbers would cause pc ramping to be weak enough early game such that there's enough consistent counterplay available to shut down the loop

if it has a weak enough early game then you shouldn't be able to pc loop at all

[lusty swan]

I don't like ramping for the reasons as cookie, I mean sure even if there's a window to shut it down it shouldn't be a free win once you get it rolling or else you'll just have people playing blitz in tetra league again

There isn't really any risk to the strategy so it's just free value if it's rewarded enough

[wide sky]

Agreed, let's not over-reward PC ramping, nor make it unusably weak.

1st PC: 3 lines, +1 b2b (Within first 10 pieces, send 10 lines instead.)
2nd PC: 3 lines, +1 b2b
3rd PC: 4 lines, +1 b2b
4th PC: 4 lines, +1 b2b
5th PC: 5 lines, +1 b2b
6th PC: 5 lines, +1 b2b
7+ PC: 6 lines, +2 b2b

[lusty swan]

see this is why I think 5 is a good compromise, not too powerful and not too unrewarding and not as complicated as ramping would be, and it keeps midgame PCs relevant without needing looping beforehand

[wide sky]

Great point. I'll concede on PC ramping for the sake of simplicity.

On another note, any thoughts on first 10 pieces sending 10 lines, to threaten greedy openers like extended sdpc spin?

[rapid turtle]

You can probably counter sdpc spin with sdpc spin

I just don’t like strong PC openers, but I do like strong PC midgame. This is why I like PC margin time the most

Of course, I’m biased against PC and in favor of sdpc spin because sdpc spin is my opener.

[meager ledge]

any kind of ramping up just nullifies early pcs and/or over-rewards later pcs, and by definition it wants you to loop to get more damage out of it.

ramping down is alright maybe, but it suggests that the first few pcs are relatively strong (a few loops is all it takes to kill usually). it also kind of encourages looping the couple strong pcs out, up to a limit when the loop is milked for its damage output.

i think the best way is just to pick a single number that is just low enough for loops to not be that good. id be willing to sacrifice midgame pcs for weaker loops but thats just my view (as with everything else).

[obtuse storm]

Ye said what I wanted to say much more eloquently

[wide sky]

eyy, sdpc spin is also my opener of choice. (i actually just taught it to A+ player on stream yesterday) but setting aside my personal bias, the traditional counter to tall openers was PCO, but now what?

[north quest]

came here to say "agree" on the title
how i might change All Clear:

when performing All-Clear, send 4 lines + add 1 b2b + send 1 line for each piece that cleared lines in the last 7 pieces

[carmine sand]

i don't think that buff makes any sense lol

[north quest]

i like downstacking into pc

[carmine sand]

it'll just run into the issue of #1267363676596469862 where two people solving the same PCO ends with one player having +1 garbage for little to no reason

[carmine sand]

should that immediately kill people though?

[north quest]

yeah

[carmine sand]

nice multiplayer design then

[north quest]

midgame pc is damn near impossible to see

edit:
need even amount of minos
a good flat board
insane foresight and rng

[carmine sand]

for a majority of the playerbase they'll be damn near impossible to do on purpose as well

the issue is they're too luck based

[north quest]

its not just the luck thats needed
a player also needs to act correctly based on the luck

[carmine sand]

i said they were too luck based, not that they were literally RNG top to bottom

you concede there's a significant amount of luck needed?

[north quest]

yeah

(i use that as premise to reward a midgame pc)
(and make it more rewarding than seeing 2 tspins in a row, which is easier)

[carmine sand]

well honestly i don't know what i'm arguing for. i think that proposal is beyond unintuitive and people won't understand why some of their all clears are sending 5 when some other ones are sending 6 (because let's be honest, beyond stacking PCO on itself people aren't getting all 7 here)

[north quest]

fair, it seems unintuitive for the uninitiated

response for words in brackets: i add numbers for the sake of adding specifics
(my opinion states midgame PC+line clears should deal the same dmg as the whole DPC 4+5+10),
would the proposal hold if the numbers are adjusted for balancing?

edited thrice

the part where pc gets stacking from line clears comes from this:

PC looping clear 4 or 6 lines per All-Clear
any midgame has a lot of single and double line clears between tsd/quads

given these, this proposal will buff the part that naturally occurs in midgame but not openers

[carmine sand]

i don't think so. like i said, the concept is unintuitive lol
people ask what the number (surge difference) means but i feel like most could intuit what it means if they just stared at the relevant numbers (B2B looks like , that number literally = their opponent's B2B at times, etc)

if midgame all clears are to be buffed, i much prefer the "it just gets +4 after placing 35 pieces or taking garabge or something" approach

people will abuse your proposition by just doing this lol

(it's even named, although my mind is blanking on the name)

[north quest]

pco tower dang

ok ill check for this edge case

(idek if that's the actual name)

[carmine sand]

apparently i called it "cap special" in the past

[carmine sand]

honestly having to accept, say, 10 rows of garbage before the all clear buff sounds like a very good mechanic, assuming that's the direction (which i still think isn't a good call)
for the C- players, they probably won't even deal with 10 rows of garbage. the nerf is mainly meant to make it so openers don't singlehandedly solve 25% of the ranked ladder lol

[north quest]

i agree on the direction of nerf
however, imo, the nerf felt too big on all-clear outside of pc looping, which completely disincentivizes people (me) that like the reward of seeing a very random midgame pc and taking it

with current patch, i just continue tsd for the same damage

5dmg (with b2b active) +1b2b with no thinking
vs
5dmg + 1b2b with lots of thinking and being forced to break the surge in practically every midgame pc situation

[north quest]

oh wait i overlooked this, this seems genius

what if:

all clear garbage modifier + all clear margin time
and then adjust numbers

[carmine sand]

i am a little worried about making it time based since people might start to stall lol

[north quest]

i see.

how about buffing all-clear, after tanking at least 5 lines

(specifically at least 5. if it was 4 lines, id gamble (if i piece is in queue) and tank 4 lines in hopes for quad pc after solving pco)

[obtuse storm]

If someone does find a midgame pc and then is able to loop then 💀

Possibly encourages pc fishing (Korean stacking)

[hidden cove]

^ exactly the issue

with all clear buffs

now with 5 damage it's finally not an insta-win

[rapid turtle]

But pc should still be heavily rewarded mid game

Good luck pc looping when you don’t even know what bag corresponds to it after completing a pc midgame.

[lusty carbon]

how about bag resets after midgame pc (real)

[turbid lake]

I'm personally against topping out by suddenly receiving 14 lines (70% of the board) just because my opponent had a lucky piece sequence that ended in an All Clear

(I'm including the Tetris in that calculation, but 10 or 11 lines is still way too much)

[hidden cove]

Lucky quad pc looked cool and all when you win, but it sucks to lose against

This is better rn

[rapid turtle]

The point is midgame pc is very hard to do so it should be rewarded more

[bold smelt]

Well, the point is also that midgame pc is rare, gimmicky af, and quite luck based so it should not really matter whether it is strong enough or not

[turbid lake]

it's already rewarded plenty. you send an extra 5 lines on top of what you already send from the line clear, so a B2B Tetris PC will send half a board of garbage

[lusty carbon]

midgame pc should still be a viable option to do on midgame

right now, you still sacrifice a lot

doing a midgame pc

[bold smelt]

Is it really ?

Most likely you only have one every few games anyway

[lusty carbon]

cons:
-need bag awareness
-tsd does the exact same
-clear board sucks if you don't know what you're doing
-going for another pc also sucks
-b2b is gone, surge is forced to be broken

there are no pros

I can see why you'd do it as an opener

but midgame is....

bad

[bold smelt]

Yes but as i said, it is so uncommon, especially at lower ranks, why do we even care so much about them ?

[lusty carbon]

you said it didn't matter if it was weak but yeah

[bold smelt]

Yes exactly

[lusty carbon]

even with 10 lines, midgame pc wasn't viable unless it was part of the spike

[bold smelt]

True, midgame pc has never been that relevant, idk why people suddenly keep talking about it

[lusty carbon]

there would be always people out there getting salty about being punished heavily for doing something rare though

[bold smelt]

Well then gimme 69 attack, cuz i managed to build a midgame secret grade

[lusty carbon]

wut

spotting a midgame pc is a skill

rng or not

[bold smelt]

Im not saying there is no skill

No one has ever did

[lusty carbon]

and that instantly becomes like oh nvm that is useless imma keep upstacking unless it breaks b2b (which is almost never)

[bold smelt]

But again, i genuinely dont see the problem, in S1 already i never took time looking for midgame PC, and if you had high B2B it was often bad to go for it

[meager ledge]

i actually dont know if ive had a misgame pc in my entire tl career (maybe once or twice). to me personally, invalidating midgame pcs is generally fine. dont rly know how the top players would feel though

[lusty carbon]

fair

[bold smelt]

If you want to make it a more reliable skill there is an argument to reward color clears instead of all clears (i have no clue whether this has been discussed). Obv the balance should be thought around that

[lusty carbon]

color clears r so rare

don't wanna learn a new skill just for that

[bold smelt]

Well less than PCs lol

[lusty carbon]

imo it's rarer

[bold smelt]

PCs are color clears, it litterally can not be rarer

[lusty carbon]

having a color clear in your board state had always been not beneficial (even when downstacking) , so it's a huge learning curve is what I've meant

[bold smelt]

Ah yes this would be quite the change indeed

But ngl i'm all for shaking the meta

[lusty carbon]

I mean i guess I just never actively looked for them (and subconsciously avoided it) 🤷 I guess it's more common then

[bold smelt]

Well its kinda just a PC on top of garbage lol

[lusty carbon]

I mean there's also the fact that u have to execute it in vs

but it's highly theoretical

[bold smelt]

We were just discussing midgame PCs, its just as theoretical

[lusty carbon]

kinda pointless to talk about it any more than this cuz theres no concept of color clears being rewarded in any tetris game ever

(afaik)

[bold smelt]

Ah in that sense ye i guess, but hey we have color clears in duo QP

[hidden cove]

it was 1 time funny and 14 times meh

[marble hedge]

?

color clear is good when downstacking what are you talking about

[marble hedge]

because if you take the time to actually learn to pc midgame an spam more you should be rewarded

i midgame pc'd someone 3 times(same speed as opponent) they barely were at half board height

it does nothing rn

s1 even without b2b that would kill

[lusty carbon]

no funnel and attack

ok maybe in some cases then lol

[north quest]

all these exactly

the person that goes "bro they shouldnt send 14 lines allclear just because they had a lucky piece sequence" does not know

14 lines is the same dmg as two tspins and a quad
(this is trivial when compared to midgame all-clearing)

[meager ledge]

yes but a pc does it in at most 4 lines

doing it with tspins and quads takes usually 8-10

[north quest]

ok but like what kind of logic is that

unless if the opponent is a literal tetris bot, no one is going to take the pc route

most people (including x rankers) cant see it
it takes a whole new skillset just to find the same damage as 2tsd and quad
and if you can do 2tsd and quad why not just do 2tsd and quad
you keep the b2b for more b2bs later down the line

midgame pc is just okay in s1, a spike that is a better finisher than throwing tsd until the opponent tops out

in s2 its really bad
just do 1tsd, its the same as new pc

[turbid lake]

I'm not exactly a fan of the idea of suddenly topping out when my stack is 7 rows tall

[obtuse storm]

lol yea fr

[obtuse storm]

pc sized spikes happen all the time

like this guy said, tsd quad quad is way more damage

and you can run into rng quad quads pretty easily too

[turbid lake]

at least you can look at your opponent's board and see exactly which setups are available

there's also another danger to high-spike All Clears: followup ACs

thought one All Clear was bad? why not two of them?

on multiple occasions, I've performed an accidental mid-game All Clear only to follow it up with a very intentional two-line All Clear

[north quest]

dang

ok would the idea work if:
the first midgame pc gets the bigger spike, but not the subsequent all-clears
(lets say, n seconds needs to pass for the next all-clear to accumulate more dmg)

[rapid turtle]

Maybe pc should give b2b instead of garbage.

[carmine sand]

it did and that's what this thread is complaining about

[rapid turtle]

Maybe have pc send 0 lines and 10 b2b

So the opponent can still send lines even right after the pc. This disables second pc

Better yet, the b2b charge of 10 lines is cheese

[carmine sand]

that's insane lol

[rapid turtle]

Is that too op?

[willow marsh]

yea

[rapid turtle]

Maybe 8 b2b

But it would be cool to have an attack send zero lines and only adds b2b

[hidden cove]

It'd be funny if it never kept b2b but always set your b2b charge to 5

But it would be kind of op

Honestly a PC just isn't as difficult as 6 consecutive clean attacks

[carmine sand]

go for a midgame PC with B2B×30
your surge is just deleted/turned into B2B×5 without being sent

[hidden cove]

[rapid turtle]

It should just add to b2b

[lofty dragon]

maybe I should continue not checking this thread if these are the type of ideas here 💀

[humble granite]

Surge being at x4 should fix the pc loops being pseudo 8 attacks now.

Just worried about it becoming pseudo 9 attacks if new pc setups are found and utilized.

Overall i think this is fine for now, since i've found keeping b2b requires a few bags and by then pc loops should be broken

[humble granite]

is it? I felt like the PC nerfs were good overall, just wished midgame pc had something to make it special

[humble granite]

i disagree with this

it's not hard to color clear

and if someone chooses to inf ds/focus on survival

via eliminating all garbage on their board

chances of midgame pc is higher

and spotting midgame pc requires . . . vision to spot it

especially if they spotted it outside of inf dsing it should be rewarding to go for them

instead of, oh . . . its not worth going for and then dont

[rapid turtle]

That’s why midgame pc should really get rewarded

My proposal:
No b2b
Send 4 lines
That increases by 0.1 line/sec starting at 30s.

[obtuse storm]

so… 20 damage pc at 3 minutes ✨

[obtuse storm]

He didn’t say it was hard, he just said it was rare and luck based

[obtuse storm]

Like this is basically just rewarding good rng

[humble granite]

Doing a 8+ combo can be luck based as well yet it's rewarded due to combo table/multiplier

you can also stack with the intent for fishing for combos.

and like i said about inf dsing, and focusing on clearing garbage, it makes midgame pcs more likely

like combos, sometimes it works out, and sometimes you just cant continue past 6

it's no different with stacking a ct4 quad or tsd while minimizing the amount of remaining pieces remaining after tanking in hopes of doing a quad+quad or tsd+quad.

like sure it's rng if the opponent is gonna send clean first, sure it's rng it will spawn in the 70% of the board that will take advantage of it

idk . . . my idea of the game is that it's an inherently based on RNG with how garbage spawns and how we get pieces in 7 bag. But it's also a skill to manipulate RNG to the best advantage. If one stacks in a manner to manipulate rng for certain conditions and the rng respondes kindly it should be rewarded

stacking cleanly/flatly is also manipulating RNG at it's basis, since a flatter board enables more flexiblity because all the pieces have a flat side to them etc etc.

A midgame pc may seem completely rng/got lucky, but it can also be because the player stacked in a particular manner and enabled even the possiblity of it happening

and if the stars aligned for it to happen and the player actually spots it, why shouldnt it get rewarded?

It's no difference from someone deciding to do an stsd on an board with no garbage and losing the 1/10th https://clips.twitch.tv/ThankfulTamePizzaDxAbomb-rm-VtoPfhsMbf1YY But opposite direction

[wide sky]

I agree that the line of argument, "PC is RNG and should not be rewarded" is a weak one, because if the "RNG" argument is applied to commonly accepted parts of the game such as queue safety, upstacking, downstacking, and garbage holes, you can see that successfully managing RNG is a fundamental part of the game. So, the concern about PC being too RNG... is kinda missing the forest for the trees.

I'd also add that midgame PC has become harder due to the cheese, while giving less reward than S1.

[hidden cove]

how about this. color clear gives +2 b2b charge, while pc gives 5 damage and 2 b2b charge

[humble granite]

pc loops gonna be pseudo 9 attacks cause 5+4 surge with that

also worse than season 1 cause cheesier garbage instead of pure clean

[wide sky]

How to buff midgame PC without making PC loops oppressive? Tough question, but here's a shot in the dark.

PC Ramping
1st PC: 4 lines
2nd PC: 4 lines
3rd PC: 5 lines
4th PC: 5 lines
5th PC: 6 lines

PC gives +1 b2b.

Pick one:
A. Every 12 bags, ramp 1. Bag ramping rewards loopers for honing their speed, and avoids opener stall.
B. Every 30 seconds, ramp 1. Time-ramping would gate faster loopers, which is probably healthy.

Thoughts?

[rapid turtle]

To keep things simple, it feels weird for PC to give >1 b2b. But I think pc should be time ramping

[wide sky]

yeah i'd say it's better to keep PC to consistent +1 b2b

if you don't mind me asking, as far as time ramping goes, what makes that better than bag ramping?

[ruby flax]

I hate AC looping because then there’s no garbage interaction

[hushed mesa]

imo midgame pc doesn't need to be buffed

5 lines + b2b is already a good enough reward for something that adds on to whatever line clear was performed

[hidden cove]

good idea

[hidden cove]

kinda confused why we want to buff loops again

[wide sky]

It's not strictly a nerf or buff. It's rescaling.

-1 early, so easier to interrupt the loop
+1 later

Do more steps need to be added in the middle?

[wide sky]

I did some quick math and realized 4 bags is way too low lol. you could have just said something

[lusty swan]

12 bags?

[wide sky]

Should it be ramp 1...
A. Every 8 bags
B. Every 20 seconds?

For reference, here's my napkin math. Since pc looping happens at higher ranks, I assumed a baseline 3pps. 12 bags is cleared in 28 seconds, comparable to the time ramping of 30 seconds. If you wanted to further gate fast players, you could figure out something with diminishing returns, I suppose.

[obtuse storm]

Still don’t think ramping is a useful mechanic

[obtuse storm]

So this is to buff random midgame PCs?

[wide sky]

that's the idea

[obtuse storm]

If it starts at 4 and increases by 1 every 20 seconds then at 3 minute mark, a PC will send 13 base damage

[wide sky]

it caps at 6 lines

[obtuse storm]

Lol

So basically a tst then

[wide sky]

The idea is to introduce more early weakness to pc loops, so there's a larger window to interrupt the loop, without making it unusable. And buffs midgame PC.

[obtuse storm]

I feel like this plus minus 1 won’t really do anything

4 damage pc makes it basically impossible to loop I feel

And then 6 damage pc won’t really feel like anything too

[wide sky]

You could be right. I don't have all the answers.

Out of curiosity, what makes you feel that 4 damage pc loop is impossible, while 5 damage is?

[carmine sand]

yeah it is lol, having B2B×2 after an all clear didn't matter to anyone

[carmine sand]

i don't think that's sound either

queue
queue is literally shared by both players. same pieces, same order, same predictable 7-bag
upstacking, downstacking
decisions a player makes and can always do consistently if they're like.....above A rank? an X rank's downstacking will be a lot faster, but that's not because of RNG lol—it's an expression of skill
garbage holes
believe it or not these are deterministic too. you and your opponent get the same garbage columns in the same sequence(that information isn't viable to use, but it is theoretically possible with godlike screenpeaking). change on attack means you know with definitive certainty whether or not an attack will be cheese or not—that part is not RNG any way you slice it—and that factors into decision making

i do think midgame PCs, at least for anyone under U rank, are significantly more RNG than any of these mechanics

[wide sky]

I mostly agree.

Down stacking is a skill to successfully manage the board and the queue. Take it a step further and I'd say that finding a down stack into a midgame PC, given the current cheese is especially skillful.

While both players have the same queue and garbage, realistically, adapting your stacking to fit the queue with your own board is more relevant than screen watching to see further into your queue, or predicting garbage holes - as you've also pointed out.

Good point that midgame PC's are less skillful for lower rank players, who have less lookahead.

[carmine sand]

i mean i dunno, it's still hype as fuck whenever anyone does one, i agree, but i think a lot of that comes from the presentation/fundamental wow factor. spectators aren't astonished because they know all clears send 10 rows of garbage and add back to back
but i understand why it disincentivizes the real pros so

[lusty swan]

also isnt parity hard to maintain with random amounts of garbage coming in? idk if anyone can reliably manage that without luck

while also being fast enough to not recieve another line of garbage

[wide sky]

So, if a PC expert had to fix parity before even having the chance to PC, is that more or less skillful? Should PC's be rewarded more or less?

[wide sky]

That's actually a big reason why I'm cooking PC ramping. I think it'd be a great shame for midgame PC's to be left behind by the pros, for the sake of attack efficiency.

[carmine sand]

yeah but they still wouldn't open with all clears if they sent 4 at any point lol

[carmine sand]

but yes

[wide sky]

That may be a necessary sacrifice to nerf PC loops, but given pros' pps, I'm hopeful their midgame PC will be worth while through bag ramping.

first 10 pieces send 10 lines may help with reviving PCO, and signaling to play a cleaner game.

[lusty swan]

Less skillful because you can't choose when and what your opponent sends so you're reliant on rng, especially since if you're fishing for PCs you're probably not going to have much to defend yourself with, leaving you more vulnerable to a stray line of garbage

[lusty swan]

Pretty sure the intention of season 2 is to have less clean games

based on what garbo said

[wide sky]

Good point

[hidden cove]

cheesing without dedicated cheesing

[wide sky]

I don't quite agree.

Sure you don't know what your opponent will send. But there are techniques like skimming (and cancelling). So both players play a part in board parity.

I'd say that successfully managing parity is a skill required to reach a midgame PC, but does not guarantee it, and that's fine.

[lusty swan]

yes but skimming wont cancel lines. to cancel any significant amount of lines you need to build up or already have a decent amount of volume in your stack for tetrises and tspins, which is anti synergetic with pcs

[wide sky]

Great points. Yeah managing parity requires skill.

Midgame PC's are not easy and require a lot of skill, which is why I'm cooking PC ramping.

[lusty swan]

no thats not skill thats rng

there can be skill yes but you need luck

[hidden cove]

it does take skill sure, but is it really more reward-worthy than a c-spin

sending a c-spin requires 2 Ts which requires bag rotations or good hold

meanwhile all-clear really is just 1 final piece in the puzzle and potentially part of multiple other line clears

[lusty swan]

what is this argument

[meager ledge]

with the amount of cheese there is, midgame pcs take, comparatively, a crazy amount of luck AND skill, so in theory you'd want it to deal a crap ton of lines to justify how much work it takes and how much you sacrifice going for one. but obviously, you cannot make a midgame pc send 20 lines.

in my eyes, there is no good way to both justify the work a midgame pc takes and make it fair for the other player.

i think im becoming inconsistent with my previous takes by now, but honestly, we can do without midgame pcs

they're even more rare than before anyway

why are we fighting this much

[lusty swan]

idk i think the issue is solved with pcs sending 5 and contributing to b2b already

[hidden cove]

ye

[wide sky]

I don't have all the answers, but I'm being reasonable and proposing 4 - 6.

Yes, midgame PC are much more difficult now, but it's hard to ask for more.

[hidden cove]

ok but once you did the mid-game all-clear it's looping time again

[obtuse storm]

I’ve had a lot of experience with pc fishing and I can tell you that midgame pcs are like 99% luck based

[hidden cove]

does that really need to be buffed again

[obtuse storm]

It’s basically infinite downstacking until you get a lucky queue that lets you pc

[lusty swan]

whats the difference? whats so wrong with how it is now that this solution needs ot be used

[obtuse storm]

Ye agree

Why make it ramping? It doesn’t really change anything at all

[lusty swan]

yeah it just makes looping more relevant, otherwise pcs suck even more

[wide sky]

So, if you don't mind me asking. As far as PC damage goes, you'd mentioned that 4 damage 1st PC felt like it would be impossible to loop. How big a difference is that compared to 5 damage? I don't know, and I'm genuinely curious.

[obtuse storm]

Basically a negligible difference

At 4 damage, it’s basically just quad spamming on expert difficulty

At 5 damage it’s still quad spamming but with b2b enabled lol

At least for pc dpc loop

For other loops it’s still a very minimal difference

[wide sky]

Good points.

Would PC ramping be more of a buff to dpc looping than midgame PC?

If PC ramping ramped every 12 bags, rather than counting PC's, would that be better?

[north quest]

probs, yeah
gotta cap it tho (ill throw in a figure of 7)

[hidden cove]

i have had enough of SDPC/DPC loopers that i would rather if PCs don't ramp up at all

[north quest]

12 bags is kinda impractical to go for in terms of sdpc/dpc
(12 bags = 84 pieces = ~40 seconds (assuming ~2pps)

and reset the ramp when performing allclear

just for good measure

[wide sky]

Yeah I get it, which is why PC ramping lowers their early game, so it's easier to interrupt their loop, and force them to midgame. Conversely, if you fail to interrupt in 12 bags, PC gets +1 line, and it caps at 6 lines.

[obtuse storm]

It still doesn’t really do anything though

Like I still don’t get the point of adding ramping

It doesn’t matter if it happens every pc or every 12 bags

[north quest]

bring the midgame pc back as a thing, while keeping the garbage opener loops in the bin (i also despise them)

[wide sky]

PC ramping, should reward hype midgame PC's and enlarges the window to force opener pc loops into midgame. Bag ramping rewards loopers honing speed. Time ramping does not.

[obtuse storm]

I mean I don’t think 6 damage pcs are gonna change anything lol

[wide sky]

The numbers are conservative, but the idea of PC ramping every 12 bags is pretty new.

Ramp resetting is an interesting idea, but I'm a little biased against, because I enjoy watching the pros go into consecutive midgame PC's.

[wide sky]

Consecutive midgame PC takes a lot of skill. Please don't lump midgame PC with opener PC loop

[limpid fjord]

midgame pc is definitely a lot more rng when you consider the parity and garbage lines adding odd mino

[wide sky]

True, PC's rely on board parity and you don't know what your opponent will send. But there are techniques like skimming (and cancelling). So both players play a part in parity.

I'd say that fixing parity is a skill required to reach a midgame PC, but does not guarantee it, and that's fine.

I think it's not too bad to start PC's at 4 lines, and +1 line every 12 bags (or every 30 seconds). Caps at 6 lines.

This buffs hype midgame PCs while enlarging the window to force opener PC loops to midgame.

[hearty dome]

pc garbage should be more messy

[keen hinge]

no

[lofty dragon]

no

[hidden cove]

i can't wait for S2 to see people play on a cheesy board

[rapid turtle]

I just want to nerf opener pc and buff midgame pc

[languid jewel]

I've considered basing it off of how long since the last PC (measured in PIECES):
If 5 pieces: 8 damage (2 lines deserve a reward let's be real)
Less than 35, not a multiple of 5 pieces: 6 damage (this usually indicates some RNG that should be satisfying and rewarding to get)
≤35, multiple of 5: 4 damage (the purest form of opener PC, boring)
More than 35: 10 damage (this is a midgame PC, that needs rewarding)

[wide sky]

Interesting, and good to see another active thinker willing to go out on a limb and propose numbers! Here's my take...

1. The 5 pieces rule adds complexity.
2. The 5 pieces rule can miscategorize PC's. Hypothetically, the PC'er could reach a multiple of 5 by fixing parity from opponent garbage, which could unintentionally nerf a skillful PC.
3. Pros would probably not go for consecutive midgame PC's. The 1st sends 10, then any consecutive PC's would send 4, same as opener PC loops

So yeah, I see some issues, but I agree with the intent to buff midgame PC and nerf opener PC.

[rapid turtle]

Rip, midgame pc suck

[hidden cove]

It was primarily RNG anyway

[storm topaz]

I think for midgame pc, it should be based on combo

so if there's a high downstack into pc, its rlly rewarding, like 8 damage

but if you stack rlly low, and happen to stumble into pc, it shouldnt spike the opponent into oblivion

[hearty dome]

oops wrong chat

[brisk dome]

oops wrong chat

[hidden cove]

oops wrong chat

[dreamy sleet]

oops wrong chat

[dusty turtle]

why are there 4500 messages here what happened

yes i agree with this too

maybe 6 or 7 lines sent instead of 5

[tribal garden]

why not just nerf pc for the first minute (or some sort of duration based on rank) of the game? That way you are more likely to nerf opener pc loops and leaving "skillful, midgame pcs" intact.

on the other hand, maybe it's possible to have garbage check with modulus of 4, so that some extra i 8L PCs can't abuse the opener again out of luck?

[carmine sand]

it used to send 3 lines. the fact that it was +2 B2B wasn't enough to offset this for a majority of people
some people thought that much of a nerf was still justified. argumenting ensued

[dusty turtle]

fr

[wide sky]

PC Ramping

PC damage starts at 4 lines and caps at 6 lines.

+1 line at bag 12, or 0:30 on timer, whichever happens first
+1 line at bag 24, or 1:00 on timer, whichever happens first

For reference, here's my napkin math. Since opener PC loops can devalue midgame for most ranks, I assumed a baseline of 3pps that goes through 12 bags in 28 seconds, comparable to the natural 30 second timer, but also rewards players that hone speed.

Midgame PC requires a combination of luck and skill and involves adapting the queue to the board, fixing parity, and fighting cheese. It's harder than ever.

Everyone knows the feeling of missing a PC. "Oh I probably could have gotten that if I had more lookahead" Encouraging players to use more of their queue is great.

But RNG just hands them the PC, too! RNG sometimes hands them TST tower. Rather than looking at this as a problem, I'd say these midgame techniques make for a great wow moment for spectators, piques curiosity, and encourages learning more about the game.

[dusty turtle]

For me, who is low rank, getting a pc by itself is a challenge, and barely anyone down here knows how to do them anyways-It usually doesnt even kill since I can't chain them. I think just like how the rounds increase from 3 when you get to S- rank, or 7 when you get to U rank, PCs should be nerfed at higher skill levels and buffed for lower skill levels

(rare sight of c tiers being active in tetrio discord server)

also my brain is kinda bad rn so i might not grammer

[hidden cove]

PCs should be nerfed at higher skill levels and buffed for lower skill levels
varied PC damage based on rank is bad

[lusty swan]

Yeah any more variance than what score the match goes to isn't a great idea imo

[brisk dome]

https://tenor.com/view/super-mario-bros-wonder-talking-flower-template-mario-wonder-meme-gif-7964213445666430726

[viscid hull]

pc damage is now equal to your tr

[wide sky]

Good point, the variable damage has a potential downside of more knowledge overhead.

Setting aside the variable damage we already have in b2b and combo, is the benefit of encouraging pros to use midgame PC to create hype moments, greater than the risk of turning people away due to being overwhelmed by a spreadsheet of numbers +-1 line?

I'd like to think PC ramping is easily explained and understood at 3 sentences. Besides flat value, any ideas to simplify it more?

[obtuse storm]

there's still no reason to add pc ramping

4, 6 damage all the same lol

increasing pc damage by 2 during midgame does not incentivise players to start fishing for midgame pcs

not that that should be a goal anyway

pc fishing is probably the most boring gameplay since it's just infinite korean stacking

otherwise just encouraging pros to take midgame pc when they naturally have one, well that's what the keeping b2b change is for right

[bold smelt]

ironically, 3 + 2b2b was arguably better for midgame imo

[wide sky]

What makes you feel 4 and 6 damage are the same? That'd be like saying tsd and tst are the same. I really don't understand where you're coming from here.

I don't necessarily agree that ramping PC damage (4-6) will lead to more korean stacking, but let's pretend for a moment that it does.

Korean stacking aims to keep a clean board, but gives the opponent chances to b2b and combo. In S1, the korean stacker could expect to receive a lot of clean, but how does Surge 4 and 9 play into this situation? Once you start taking cheese, doesn't "fishing" become downstack (or forced upstack) into midgame PC? The gameplay implications are not as cut and dry as your rhetoric would suggest.

[wide sky]

I think pros doing consecutive midgame pcs are hype, perhaps you don't feel the same. Should we start a poll about it?

[hidden cove]

i am so tired of seeing people loop because they got lucky garbage row parity and lucky bag piece count

even tho i have won with that in the past and i'm not even that great at PCs

[brisk dome]

https://tenor.com/view/super-mario-bros-wonder-talking-flower-template-mario-wonder-meme-gif-7964213445666430726

surely you don't mean that after one midgame pc, people start looping

because that would be a really Funny thing to Say

so Surely you wouldn't say Something like that

Ha

haha.

ugh im so tired of seeing stuff like this

[carmine sand]

i mean it's not literally formulaic but you must admit the chances of a followup all clear with generic setups are undeniably relevant

[hidden cove]

I can find the s1 ting704-smolfeesh replay when I get home if you want

[north quest]

would the issue be solved if only the first midgame pc gets buffed

issue: after midgame pc, players do some random 4-high setup in an attempt to score another pc (non-negligible odds)

for dmg spikes, surge b2b exists for that

[marble hedge]

who even asked for pc to be giga nerfed anyways

it was never an issue to begin with

so called "high level players" can counter it

[north quest]

me and others

[carmine sand]

so then maybe it wasn't about the so-called "high level players"??

[marble hedge]

it was not something that was hard to counter

don't see why it required nerf

[carmine sand]

if you were B rank.....yes it was lol

it singlehandedly solved so many ranks

and that's not healthy

[lusty swan]

It's spammable for free wins with basically no downside

10 for a PC is quite too much imo

[marble hedge]

the downside is that you get sent 1 line and it's not spammable

[carmine sand]

i think you need to understand that those lower ranks are actually incapable of doing that in the time it takes to place those 7 pieces for PCO

[lusty swan]

The downside is going into a fair game? And the upside is an instant point

[north quest]

it works even in ss and u rank
heck sometimes even x
its just that strong

[marble hedge]

so you are saying people that go out of there way to learn a strategy should be punished for it

[lusty swan]

I don't really agree

[carmine sand]

no, i'm saying the solution to low ranks shouldn't be "look at a webpage that singlehandedly solves things without any pushback"

[lusty swan]

Outside of openers rounds usually last ~40 seconds or more

assuming both players are of similar skill

[marble hedge]

why is this a problem

it's true for any game

[carmine sand]

is it? i could learn every callout in CS2 but it won't change the fact that i can't shoot straight and will not score a single kill in competitive

[marble hedge]

you can google how to play maps and strategies

[carmine sand]

rocket league? you can read about flip resets but they aren't happening, not for a long time

[marble hedge]

learning a strategy that works 60% of the time is not really a bad thing

[carmine sand]

i'm not saying four.lol should be considered the devil to all game design, but there is a certain line where it's no longer a display of skill

[bold smelt]

It really is tho

Especially if it has zero downsides

[marble hedge]

people don't turn into smolfeesh after 5mins of looking at fourlol

[turbid lake]

"people spent a lot of time learning X; therefore, X is something good that must be kept" is not the argument that you think it is

[carmine sand]

i really don't think you have a grasp on what we're talking about here

we aren't saying C ranks are "instantly turned into smolfeesh"

[marble hedge]

here was probably a better way than to devalue a whole skillset

[lusty swan]

well yeah either you're topped out or still playing, not like there aren't advantageous and disadvantageous positions to be in with cheese and boardstates and whatnot, but I believe the dev team is actively working on this

The problem is PCs were way too much free value, you can start spamming them every round start and either the opponent sends 1 line and now you're on equal footing or you snowball and send them 40 lines and win out the gate

[broken brook]

lower ranks can't improve without stuff like four, i mean be honest who here knew how to do a t-spin without looking at guides

[carmine sand]

t-spins have a different relationship to general stacking than all clears though

in fact all clearing is the pentultimate study of having no stack lol

[broken brook]

i'm saying t-spins here because it can apply to literally any other technique

[marble hedge]

c ranks learn pco and go up to a and people actully counter it so they learn how to stack anyways

[broken brook]

including pcs

[carmine sand]

is that a healthy interaction?

[bold smelt]

This is litterally the problem

[carmine sand]

should doing https://four.lol/perfect-clears/opener a few times in zen mode delete C+ B- B B+ A-

[marble hedge]

osu may not be the best example but in osu you learn that dt is broken as fuck you spam dt short maps and you gain rating easily

[broken brook]

honestly it's a problem coming from any game with guides on easy wins

[marble hedge]

and then get hardstuck and learn to play the rest of the game

it happens in every game

[broken brook]

buy a gun coupled with a technique and you'd be climbing ranks with frustrated opponents in no time

[bold smelt]

And people get annoyed of being stuck and they leave the game

[marble hedge]

openers are still exploitable, pc spam was the least of the problematic openers imo

[carmine sand]

if you're calling it a problem..............................

[marble hedge]

stickspin/sdpcspin still do massive damage and give you free surge to cheese your opponent post spike

[carmine sand]

whatever, nobody's changing anyone's minds here

[marble hedge]

also i do wanna mention

opener phase is broken with pcs

if both me and opponent have tetris pc

[broken brook]

i feel like that's not true? if your one trick doesn't work out anymore you'd start finding other one tricks, and if those don't do it anymore the cycle repeats
eventually moving from opener one tricks to midgame one tricks

[marble hedge]

the person to stall and send it second

sends more lines

because of opener phase

[carmine sand]

the amount of players ranked plateaued hard dude lol

tetra league was out for 4 years and i don't think i ever saw it go past 60K ranked (so, weekly active) players ever

[broken brook]

okay i didn't know it was that bad LMAO

[carmine sand]

and i have spoken to very disillusioned people. granted these are the types that admire CTWC's simplicity and think tspins detract from the game, but to deny they exist is just misrepresenting the population

ehh

you have to play weekly to stop decay

that's my reasoning

[broken brook]

monthly just tanks your skill a lot imo

[carmine sand]

and you know what you could see with those point plots that RD was massively fractured in the lower ranks

[marble hedge]

insert gyroscope copypasta

[turbid lake]

your argument has nothing to do with actual game balance; it's just "I don't want to adapt to new changes"

[carmine sand]

(at higher ranks it was much more consistently lower)

[marble hedge]

somebody knows what i am talking about

[carmine sand]

and i think that indicates something too

obviously the higher ranks are going to have played generally more games, but this isn't a small difference, maybe

(tenchi's site last updated late 2023)

[marble hedge]

rd thing makes sense no?

[broken brook]

idk maybe it's cause lower ranks aren't that dedicated to the game compared to higher ranks? this s2 the tetra league pool seems to contain people with higher skill overall than in s1

[marble hedge]

lower ranked are gonna be casual players

higher ranks are gonna be sweats

[carmine sand]

well here's what that looks like

[broken brook]

SOBS

the entire graph is gay

[carmine sand]

[carmine sand]

yeah i'm probably looking for self fufilling prophecies in the data here

[broken brook]

maybe it's cause s2 just started?

[carmine sand]

this is S1. late 2023

[broken brook]

oh that's s1

huh?? that's confusing

[carmine sand]

(tenchi's site last updated late 2023)

[broken brook]

oh i did not see which data point it's measuring 😭

[north quest]

the idea of learning openers to win games
= they're playing blitz
and the idea of playing blitz is to statcheck your opponent with a single method
a person looking at these games can only tell who has a better opener (not healthy)

as for midgame
the idea of learning midgame to win games
= find damaging setups with the given pieces and board (which is random)
a person looking at these games can tell who is generally better (healthy)

id prefer losing to midgame skill difference over losing to 4pps sdpc loop

[broken brook]

yeah that is valid

[wide sky]

Good point about sdpc spin giving surge. SDPC spin gets a good start, and play continues into midgame, where many skills are tested to determine a winner.

Sdpc opener is a little different because it has the ability to loop into itself as a wincon for most ranks, demands a very decisive answer, and the bar of execution primarily tests speed, rather than both speed and adaptive pattern recognition to finding midgame setups and when to use them.

Overall, I'd say sdpc spin encourages players to learn midgame skills sooner, while sdpc can feel great for players that enjoy honing one skill to perfection, but if overly powerful, can devalue midgame.

[wide sky]

Not to be negative Zaptor, but what month are the charts from? I was just thinking if it happens to be during the holiday season, that could potentially skew the data.

also yeah, nerfing pc primarily helps mid-ranked players (A rank?) get to play midgame, not necessarily just high level players, woops lol

[marble hedge]

you need a significant speed advantage for sdpc loop to be effective and if you have a significant speed advantage then you should be the one winning

welp

[wide sky]

i agree speed should be rewarded, but sdpc loop devalues midgame, and S2 seems to be about less opener and more midgame.

[north quest]

i disagree with the if statement
(reason being the same as all openers, refer to above argument i sent)

[jolly scaffold]

sdpc gives a lot of surge

sometimes you can forgo pc for b2b

or just straight up hold b2b throughout the entire loop

[wide sky]

My idea was noticed by rtxile

[carmine sand]

november 29th

[carmine sand]

ignoring that chart this is still true and it holds yearlong

[hidden cove]

nerfing PCs actually makes the game start to have an actual midgame beyond the "can you get 1 garbage under the 4pps bs-loop"

sdpc loopers were the #1 worst thing about this game and i'm glad that's behind us now, bt => c-spin is still strong if someone really wants to pc loop anyway

[warm hornet]

there are many interesting points

[warm hornet]

i don't think learning a strat that works 60% of the time (opener looping) is always better than learning a strat that works 100% of the time (good stacking)

[warm hornet]

i go out of my way to not learn openers and i am constantly punished for it; so where is my standpoint

[rapid turtle]

Good stacking can get you farther than you think

[marble hedge]

opener is part of the game

even if you don't "learn" openers

you will lean towards certain builds on certain bags

perfect example is riviclia

he doesn't use popular openers

but he knows his opener stage well

[hidden cove]

most openers are just a funky way to get into a good stack while sending some attacks

including extended-sdpc-spin which gives you a 6-3 stack

all clears less so

[humble kite]

stickspin loop works better than before, in s1 it was super useless, in s2 it's just a weak pc loop

[carmine sand]

update

[hard marsh]

Stickspin is T-spin heavy, so it's largely unaffected by the update

[young elk]

i think its power is the same as before

[humble kite]

nonono, surge makes easier to pc

harder to interrupt pc

[young elk]

still the same power [2]

[humble kite]

less pps requirements

[wide sky]

Stickspin opener pc can use all-spins to gain b2b surge to protect its loop. In Season 1, the damage was backloaded into the PC. Now, it can come sooner in surge, so the loop can have fewer moments of weakness of being forced to midgame by garbage.

[young elk]

ehhh depends on what opponent sends

[young elk]

in this example clip opponent paused and tried going for color clear which is really weak -> gives lenience to stickspinner doing 14L loop

[hushed mesa]

it kills me inside when I see someone go for the pc setup when they have unpcable garbage lines 😭

everything pointed towards taking the tsd there

but instead they choose bad skim

[hushed mesa]

(tss might actually be cleaner there but idc)

[potent nebula]

1 month later was there ever a consensus about how much ac's should send

[hidden cove]

5

[lusty swan]

ye

[ivory imp]

ac's should send fresh air

[lusty carbon]

and grass

[raven talon]

ok man

[meager ledge]

bruh

[hidden cove]

the ai summary effectively just says that there's a split with no solution

5 damage is fine. i think 3 was also fine

[lusty swan]

💀

[dreamy sleet]

bru

[thin kernel]

Is an AI generated summary supposed to help lol

[hushed mesa]

it's supposed to fill the page

[thin kernel]

To give my human view on it,
-# (for the sake of thread continuity I'll just refer to PCs as ACs)

ACs only sending 5 is definitely a HUGE difference from the usual 10 in standard games, but I agree somewhat in the sense that it is too heavy. Heck, doing a t-spin/quad with b2b already sends that amount. (You can literally negate the entirety of ACO with TKI)

The argument that only mid/higher ranked players can pull off an AC > DAC (DPC) is quite questionable as its really only just memorization + practice. You can teach a C rank AC > DPC in a day and they'll get consistent within at least 2 weeks.

In my personal opinion? I agree. ACs sending 5 lines is too few and doesn't reward enough for how rare the clear is. IMO, buffing it by a good 2 or so lines could bring a good balance.

[lusty swan]

Is there a reason why it needs to be stronger than it currently is? You say it's rare but one of the only times you see it is when it gets spammed at the beginning of the round. Midgame pcs are also very luck based, and rewarding that too much doesn't seem healthy for the game

[thin kernel]

Hmm

That is true

[lusty swan]

As I see it they're in a good place rn, they aren't overpowered and are basically the same strength as any other openers, maybe on the higher end if you're good enough with them. They aren't completely unviable as openers because they send a normal amount and they also aren't as oppressive as before

[thin kernel]

Yup that does make sense

Guess I am wrong!

[lusty swan]

You also have to be careful of buffing them because of the 2x cancelling rule as well, it was already hard enough to cancel a pc loop before

[thin kernel]

-# yeah I'm gonna give up on thread continuity

From my experience, PCs are a lot more pleasant to play and to play against so it could very well be that the nerf has done what they're supposed to do

funny thing: 4.5pps pc>pc>dpc is barely enough to get you 200apm

Soo basically any other opener

[lusty swan]

yeah that's how it should be imo

[thin kernel]

fun

Oh well

[hidden cove]

i'm glad this attack power change has fixed games so it is not about 4.5 pps-ing sdpc/dpc so you send infinite garbage faster than travel speed

[carmine sand]

yeah no i'm deleting any AI summary

[wide sky]

Oof, I'll rewrite it myself then.

Last patch PC's sent 3 lines, and there was an uproar and a poll suggested 5-6 lines. Now we have 5 lines. The idea was to prevent repetitive patterns like SDPC/DPC loops from dominating the game, but midgame PC's got double nerfed due to more cheese in Season 2.

My own idea was a system that favors midgame PC's over opener PC's, where PC damage increases as the game goes on. This would keep midgame PC's rewarding, without making opener looping overly dominant for most ranks and devalue midgame.

[hidden cove]

it's already rewarded by 5 damage

the more i think about it the less i know why clearing full board should do devastating damage

make a c-spin

make actual shapes

[lusty swan]

yeah i just dont see why midgame pcs need to be buffed at all. they send ok damage and keep b2b which is the most they should ask for for being so heavily luck reliant

[hidden cove]

if you can stlil play s1 replay, i definitely don't want to see this again

mid-game PC looping bs

[wide sky]

Good point about PC's doing damage with no stack is unusual and a curiosity in midgame, and kinda RNG for most ranks. Still, I'd say midgame PC's adds depth to the game for a few reasons.

1. Midgame PC's are exciting moments in tournaments, driving curiosity and viewer engagement with the unique sound and visual effects.
2. Midgame PC's are another shape that encourages players to use more of their queue. Both when getting a PC and especially when almost getting it are great game moments that are fun.
3. Midgame PC's are not a dominant strategy like opener looping. Learning consecutive PC's is non-trivial - especially compared to the overpowered sdpc loop - and is now relatively easy to interrupt.
4. Midgame PC's are affected by parity, which is influenced by both players. For example, fixing parity is a skill required to reach a midgame PC, but does not guarantee it. If an expert PC'er must fix parity before they have the chance to PC, should midgame PC be rewarded more or less?

Realistically, how often do you spot an opportunity for midgame c-spin or TST tower in season 2? What about midgame PC?

[thin kernel]

From what I can tell + what I've experienced, you gotta consider the opener stage

[wide sky]

Yea, that's why I've proposed PC Ramping, a system that favors midgame PC's over opener PC's, where PC damage increases as the game goes on. This would keep midgame PC's rewarding, and would keep opener loops in check, as they can dominate most ranks and devalue midgame.

[thin kernel]

Interesting

[wide sky]

For reference...

[lusty swan]

A small buff might be ok but you also have to consider what it's like to be on the receiving end of a midgame pc, especially in lower ranks if thats the deciding factor of a round that can feel pretty bad if it's too strong, you just got unlucky that your opponent happened to get a midgame pc

something like a +1 bonus doesn't seem too bad though, basically a tst at that point. Looping wouldn't be too op either especially for the skill and difficulty it requires to loop midgame, this is definitely better than the other ramping idea you had

[hidden cove]

i've won in s2 with mid-game pc before, 5 damage can also kill

[wide sky]

Good point about low ranks. I'm glad we can agree that ramping from 4 to 6 lines is roughly reasonable, low rank players considered.

[hidden cove]

can't wait to get DPC'd even harder

on the tiebreaker

because bs tactics

once you see enough all-clears it really stops being as exciting

[carmine sand]

plus i dunno, i feel like you have to be reminded that even if it's a half minute wait, low ranks will still not feel enough pressure to literally just wait it out lol

[hidden cove]

B ranks winning with PCO is just whack

due to people not being able to downstack in row 12

[carmine sand]

it encourages stalling in that way. superficially, sure, but some people will still feel the need

it's why i think it should "ramp" by maybe literally just enforcing that the stack exceed 5 rows as well or something

accept 8 rows of garbage first etc

(but i also think what we have is fine and this overcomplicates things)

and i'm sure the designers think it's fine too. it was literally 10 days without a word sent on this topic until "some guy" timidly asked "so is this over now or what"

certainly not something to change the rules mid-season over

[north quest]

fair

speaking of can the b2b the allclear give be changed a bit
a mini double allclear add less b2b than regular line clear

[carmine sand]

that would be in #1272410458338492488

[north quest]

thanks for the redirect 👍

[obtuse storm]

i still see 0 reason why midgame pcs should send 1 more

you wont even be able to feel it lol and it happens so rarely

you're basically adding complexity for no reason

like changing midgame pc from 5 to 6 damage is not going to incentivise anyone to look extra hard for midgame pcs lol

[meager ledge]

the way it is is good

[wide sky]

I stand by midgame PC creating great moments for viewers and players, but yeah new solutions can bring new issues, so I'll step off the soap box here. Thanks for your time and consideration of my PC ramping idea.

[hidden cove]

It already sends 5

[potent nebula]

Would it be possible to have a combo ending in a PC maintain b2b

Cause I think that's my only issue with the current system

It feels really discouraging to break b2b if you try to go for 2nd pc

[lofty dragon]

it already does (kinda)

[obtuse storm]

wat lol

[lofty dragon]

pcs count as a b2b clear

so if you clear a triple that is a pc it still keeps b2b

[obtuse storm]

He said combos ending in pc

[obtuse storm]

That’s a line clear

[lofty dragon]

that would be hard to implement with surge

[obtuse storm]

Then say that

Not that it already does

Because it doesn’t

[astral cloak]

i love the nerf

[hidden cove]

Finally sdpc is viable but not instant win

[storm topaz]

as an sdpc user

i am coping

[hidden cove]

good

i did lose to 3.5 pps sdpc/dpc the other day, was sadge tho

[analog ingot]

Wa commanding cookie :3

[sweet dock]

as an sdpcspin user

im steamrolling

[analog ingot]

as a mrtspin user

This isnt that bad

:3

[soft quest]

at least the stickspinners are coping

against their garbage being canceled

[astral cloak]

huh

how

the cancel helps us more

[north quest]

a single tst cancels the entire stickspin

[ivory imp]

A single tst cancels the entire WHAT?!

[astral cloak]

only if you wait the entire heat death of the univers

eand avoid all possible fun

[hard marsh]

Stickspin is TSS (2) -> TSD (5) -> TST (7) -> TSD (5) - 19 lines sent over 4 difficult clears.
The most effective counter to that during the first 14 pieces would be either:

• TKI and a freestyle TSD after (4x2 + 5x2 = 18 lines countered)
• Quad PC (9x2 = 18 lines countered)
  Countering less is fine too because of a free quad from a bit of garbage

[astral cloak]

i sure do hope most stickspinners dont just stride with it

[hidden cove]

huhhhh

[hidden cove]

I'm gonna TST opener every game now