All Clear Nerf is too heavy

[keen hinge]

you tank counterspike

and you win

[hidden cove]

you don't actually fight sdpc/Dpc loopers do you

[hearty dome]

the skill to loop fast and the skill to counterspike well

boom?

[hidden cove]

looping fast is a skill, but that doesn't change how the game intends to promote pattern recognition over repetition

aka so that people loop less

or that if you loop, that is not a free win

[keen hinge]

maybe not really good ones

[hidden cove]

shadow still does bt cannon c-spin pc loop with 4.5 pps and seems to have no trouble making APM with it

maybe SDPC/DPC is just bad and should be bad now

[keen hinge]

usually i just send 4 pps first bad tki and they cant do shit

[hidden cove]

what about OSZ open no early i

[hearty dome]

aa so my practice of learning how to play sdpc fast is pointless because too many players dont know how to counterspike

gg

its not like i didnt learn anything in order to win

[keen hinge]

i sdpc spin

[hidden cove]

i mean that sdpc practice should still work well in blitz

[hearty dome]

if you think winning should be based on effort and how much you have thats wrong

theres people who are hella hardstuck and natural pros and random outliers

[hidden cove]

this does not support your statement about sdpc practice

[hearty dome]

i meann it seems pcs are getting nerfed because they are too easy

[hidden cove]

yes

[hearty dome]

therefore 'too low effort/skill'

[hidden cove]

compared to other shapes and T/I efficiency, yes

[keen hinge]

i tried learning looping its a pain in the ass

[hearty dome]

these changes are just in a way trying to force everyone to play a certain way

[keen hinge]

it is not low effort

[hearty dome]

because thats the 'right way'

[hidden cove]

i mean you can still loop if you want

it's just not a free win

[hearty dome]

it never was

[keen hinge]

it was never a free win

[hearty dome]

the learning process was not a free indeed

lol

[limpid fjord]

it has never been

[hearty dome]

its not like i looked at a couple shapes in harddrop and suddenly

boom free wins

nah

[hidden cove]

on the other hand it makes the game inaccessible to new players, and destroyed the game's flow to the degree that people assume an opener should immediately end the game

[keen hinge]

if it was westl would have been №1 destroyer of everybody

[limpid fjord]

people here talk about it being a cheesy way to win but it has never been free win of any sort

[keen hinge]

no new player is fighing a dpc looper ffs

[hidden cove]

you're not watching enough games

DPC goes all the way down to A+

[hearty dome]

new players get pced at 0.4pps 1/4 times and they lose the round

big deal

[hidden cove]

it's just slower

[hearty dome]

so

do they need a whoel 300 percent nerf to help them

idk

[hidden cove]

that is an argument in favor of the nerf

[keen hinge]

maybe they just suck

[hearty dome]

rip to the other new players who learnt how to do it so early

and dedicated themself to the game

[hidden cove]

a PC is disproportionately easy to make for the amount of damage it used to send

B+ does "PCO into literally nothing" and still wins

[hearty dome]

to realise they could send a quad instead and get rewarded the same

[hidden cove]

because other party cannot downstack from line 12

was the PCO so hard it should make them get the win so easily if they have absolutely zero follow-up after ?

[hearty dome]

B+ also learnt how to do it and so they deserve the off wins they get when they actually get a bag they know how to solve

that B+ actually learnt that shit and decided to use it and so why shouldnt they get rewarded

meanwhile the other player will spend there time doing what they want learning pattterns

and they both will undoubtly progress eventually

i didnt realise they needed pcs to send less then half the amount to give them the encouragement to keep playing

[keen hinge]

an another b+ rank can learn 9-0 stacking instead of pco and also get "free wins" by simply sending double quad

[keen hinge]

my first experience with tetrio was getting my ass kicked by an ss ranked friend and instead of crying about it i started learning the game

[hearty dome]

ong i literally chose openers to beat my friend nothing is so deep thats its only about tr or easiest way to win

too bad i never beat him and prolly wont for the next 2years coz i spent my time learning something which got nerfed to the ground

[hidden cove]

there are so many other things you can do in the game tho

[hushed mesa]

tbf pcs sending 10 lines always felt a little overtuned

although 3 is weird

[keen hinge]

but what if that person wants to do that

[hidden cove]

i think 3 makes sense because it is unclean garbage

[hearty dome]

there are uh huh i know and i did however i just chose to focus on one thing

[hidden cove]

(i still think the whole 3 immediate + 2 guaranteed surge damage would have been nice?)

[keen hinge]

i think 6 is fine

[hidden cove]

you should be excited that you get to learn the rest of the game then

there's a lot of nice things to do

S2 was intended to shake up the way things currently were (because it is evidently not really working)

[hearty dome]

the problem was never openers at least to the degree the nerfs indicated

[hidden cove]

(imo it really kinda was)

(i would have also taken 7+X but been told it really messes up even 9-0 stacking lol)

[hushed mesa]

I think pcs giving b2b is neat since I've always though that with pcs not really being a line clear they should give you some other advantage than just sending pure garbage but 2xb2b is not a lot to work with

[hidden cove]

yea this b2b x2 is just not really a bonus

it should at least give surge damage

[keen hinge]

7+x was a bad idea in general

[hidden cove]

nah it was fun

[limpid fjord]

fun =/= good

[hidden cove]

but IMO the way it should be is:
b2b x3 already activates surge
all clear sets to b2b x4 (but if you keep b2b with all clear, then it gives +2)

[hushed mesa]

fun = good?

[hidden cove]

this is a game, dude

the whole point is for it to be fun

[bold smelt]

Not fun is never good tho

[hearty dome]

overly optimistic

[hidden cove]

^fighting sdpc

[keen hinge]

items in smash are fun but theyre not competitively viable

[limpid fjord]

messing with parity and forcing the game into 35 piece striding period has never been a good idea

[hidden cove]

(i dunno smash )

[limpid fjord]

👍

[hearty dome]

i dont even wanna argue much but its very much the opposite of excited when your effort is just--

[limpid fjord]

but you can argue otherwise if you find it fun or whatever

[hidden cove]

(7+X is dead, it was fun tho)

[keen hinge]

a lot of fun things in games are not competitively viable

[hidden cove]

ok but loopers destroy any interaction with the game for the other side

it is not fun to play against

for many people

[hearty dome]

the fun thing about tetrio to me was going for the top and getting to play how i want

[keen hinge]

this is why for example the phlog is banned in comp tf2

[hearty dome]

like those one trick people in fps or whatever

[hidden cove]

there are a few people who said they like it but it really is more about matching burst speed, aka you have to be innately as fast as a looper who is repeating things over and over

[keen hinge]

(and the vaccinator)

[hearty dome]

like awp crutchs idk if you get any references but like

[hidden cove]

i'M sure you can find at least one more broken strat if you wanna

TST c4w looks promising for example

or luna special

[hearty dome]

now i get to be a b2b stacker and play exactly the same as my opponent since that would be much more fun

[keen hinge]

offensive b2b is dead as well btw

[hearty dome]

uh huh

[hidden cove]

i dunno i encounter it and they do win if they do it well enough

for ref i've played 173 sets of season 2

[hearty dome]

in the end

there are gonna be new openers and shit

[hidden cove]

(and i've only ever had one game that was longer than 4 minutes, and it was against a 24.9k)

[hearty dome]

and the same problem all over again

sdpc extended is already a kill with how wweak b2b is and 14p rule

[hidden cove]

https://harddrop.com/wiki/Luna_special

[keen hinge]

you shouldnt even had that game in the first place btw

[hearty dome]

i already play fesh pco upstack

[hidden cove]

they didn't attack

[bold smelt]

Oh its been so long since i used that

[hidden cove]

i should learn it ngl

[bold smelt]

Ye its really funny

[hearty dome]

and wouldnt 4w be much stronger as well

on a second thought

like unrelated

but yheah

[hidden cove]

it kinda is

yeah

[hushed mesa]

openers in general are fine but loops in particular I feel are unhealthy for the game

[bold smelt]

Much stronger not really, but it is better ye

[hearty dome]

there are no counters are there

to 4w at least

[bold smelt]

Tbf it was already decent against most non loops openers

[bold smelt]

Sdpcspin is kinda nice rn, c4w wont cancel the tss so youre unlikely to get crazy multiplier

[wide sky]

Let's not push out the impressive speed of execution that comes from honing and practice. Speed is a defining point of Tetrio, after all. Aggro assassin styles can keep in check the b2b leveling style.

But that's a different conversation.

Back to PC's, I do believe that the more difficult the PC is, the more it should be rewarded. Specifically, SDPC PC is easy to solve, relative to most PC solves. That's why I think we should find ways to target nerf SDPC's PC, rather than nerf midgame PC.

[hearty dome]

misdrops are a natural counter to sdpc pc bad finesse and long bags

[hidden cove]

how should the game detect the "difficulty of a solve of a PC" in a way that the damage would make sense

[keen hinge]

idk what yall feel but when watching pro matches i think midgame pc looping is hype af

[hidden cove]

i see pc looping and think "dang this again"

[hushed mesa]

midgame pcs aren't that important to buff anyways since they're pretty rare and only situationally rewarding since unless it's likely to kill then it's just free clean and a likely break of b2b

[bold smelt]

Well its cool the first time you see it and then ehh

[hidden cove]

after the 3rd time it kinda loses its charm

and then you watch TAWS and this is literally teh only thing people are doing

and if someone lives it then it's just skims and no combined t-spin setups

[wide sky]

@keen hinge I love midgame PC's too, with the knowledge that they were giving up their b2b stats to go all in. If a person was behind on b2b, consecutive PC's became a realistic way to spike out the b2b leveller. It was a chance at a comeback, or if ahead, a decisive finish. Very dramatic and awesome to watch.

We're begging for our lives here to ask for 6, nevermind revert to 10.

[hidden cove]

people can't see a single stsd or c-spin midgame

for cool gameplay you have to look at top 20 e.g doremy

[hushed mesa]

6 garbage should be the likely outcome since it was only nerfed to 3 due to qp problems

[bold smelt]

Unfortunately

[hushed mesa]

we don't need 10 though sdpc dpc loop does not need an extra 8 lines

[hearty dome]

i think the rarity of being openered so hard that there is 0 percent chance of you winning is not very high

[keen hinge]

so true

when i lose to opener

i check the replay

[hearty dome]

and soon enough that guy will become hardstuck in the rank where people dont die and also do die to the opener

[hushed mesa]

openers are strong but not unbeatable

[keen hinge]

and then i go "oh yeah i could have done this to survive that makes sense"

[hearty dome]

feels natural feels like a drawback which they already deserve for looping in the first place

they dont need to get nerfed this hard on top of that

lol

[hushed mesa]

drawback being that the player is bad

[hearty dome]

yes

exactl;y

loopers are bad !!

looper 0 skill

[hushed mesa]

doesn't sound like much of a drawback

[hearty dome]

they already get punished and become hardstuck

whats a drawback to you

what the flip

the drawback of progressing fast without learning the basics is becoming hardstuck at a rank where you cant go anywhere because you didnt learn those basics

sounds reasonable lol

[hushed mesa]

I feel like that's more an issue with the tetris community pushing openers rather than something inherent with the opener itself

[keen hinge]

if someone ever mentions that openers are too hard to deal with for begineer players just show them this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RkapfBYIfc

fyi justin wong is a 6 time world champion in fighting games

[hushed mesa]

mmm I don't know shit about fighting games

[keen hinge]

"WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, TIME TO LEARN" © Justin Wong

[hidden cove]

the first skill check in this game was getting to 3.5+ pps TKI so that an SDPC doesn't kill you, after that you're already U rank anyway

[hearty dome]

uh huh

whats the second one

wanna vs

for fun not for a point i dont wanna be like that guy

[hushed mesa]

3.5 tki is def more than enough

you can get away with a decent bit less

[hearty dome]

and then i swap to 4.5pps extended

idk what you want opener crutches to do

i remember getting shit on by DT cannon the most when i was new

another reaosn why i learnt pcs was coz i heard it was the counter

lol

nerf dt cannon ong if newbies getting into the game is the problem

https://tetr.io/#TYAB

[limpid fjord]

sudden yapping session

also isnt this a bit off topic now

[hearty dome]

mood

yeah archive this its over for all clears either way with the way the community is

even if it gets buffed u gonna be shunned for playing it in the first place (in tl)

[hidden cove]

yes

[keen hinge]

i did it

1st bag 3.5 pps tki

when x rank

[hearty dome]

yeah i can go most the time do 4pps lst for a bit

not good at it though

[hushed mesa]

all I want are for loops to be weak

[keen hinge]

keep in mind im on my bad laptop keyboard waiting for a mechanical one to arrive

[hushed mesa]

so pc nerf gets my 👍

[keen hinge]

whoever thought this was a good idea should get fired

[hearty dome]

joever

[hearty dome]

so braindamage

[keen hinge]

its actually insanely hard to t spin fast on this

[hearty dome]

fr

[keen hinge]

i either mess up the input or go slow to not mess it up

[hushed mesa]

don't use arrow keys use ijkl 🗣️

trust

[keen hinge]

i tried okl; and got sub 60 20tsd first run lmao

this is getting too off topic

[hearty dome]

pro

ww

[hidden cove]

anyíway looks are discouraged so that people try to interact with their board more than what just the clean stack in the bottom 4-6 lines

[bold smelt]

What's the opinion on PCs sending self-garbage ?

[keen hinge]

why

[hearty dome]

yes

[hidden cove]

i think that would be nice but it would destroy loops thankfully yes

[hearty dome]

i honestly

[hidden cove]

i will take anything that destroys loops

[hearty dome]

its good

it should make a tsd quad well

[hidden cove]

but i think the all clear dmg 3 is theoretically nicer

[hearty dome]

for myself

[hidden cove]

because people can still loop if they want

it just doesn't do as much

meanwhile self-damage just prevents you from making another pc again

imagine 4 lines of cheese garbage if you make all clear

[hearty dome]

zhun hoping off tetrio alreadyy!

whatt

[hidden cove]

people using PCO will be very confused

i have a meeting in like 11 minutes

[hearty dome]

o

unluck

[hidden cove]

ye

[hearty dome]

@keen hinge

wanna play

[keen hinge]

yeah

move to tetra league channel

[hearty dome]

https://tetr.io/#JZYQ

good idea

[carmine sand]

this poll definitely has no biases nosirree

[hidden cove]

did you recreate that vote? i'M pretty sure i voted 70%

yet there is no one voted for 50-75%

[carmine sand]

i mean it was a #lobby poll, kinda important context lol

[hidden cove]

yea and i think i voted for the one in TAWS

[carmine sand]

well within 10 minutes #lobby was about minecraft or something so

[hidden cove]

oh

[keen hinge]

do you really encounter that many or is opener main to you anyone who is better than you in the opener

from my experience most of the games go to midgame

[hidden cove]

yes

wait

what a silly question structure

of course i encounter that many

[hidden cove]

altho my definition is "anyone who goes for DPC after their opener of choice with a significantly higher pps than their actual midgame"

which is why there are like 5 kinds of players

1.) SDPC/DPC loopers
2.) tki flattop LST spammers
3.) MS2/DPC loopers
4.) C4W people
5.) other

[lusty carbon]

idk in my experience it's like 30% going along with your definition

maybe you're just unlucky

[hidden cove]

i'm just in 24.4k purgatory

but

after watching twitch streams i realized that this is the same literally everywhere

the only difference is a few pps in speed

game is so varied there are 5 archetypes and so if you fight 1 SDPC/DPC looper you've fought ervery single one of them

[lusty carbon]

oh ok

somewhat unrelated but I only fear one thing, plonk stallers

im somewhat personally happy that they got nerfed but like I kinda feel bad for them because it's quite hard to do that playstyle

[hidden cove]

not sure what you mean

they got buffed

you no longer need b2b advantage to guard

the game actually promotes plonk-stalling as "the way to build surge"

[lusty carbon]

can they still 2.3 pps in top 100? not too sure about that anymore

[hidden cove]

probably

[keen hinge]

everyones opener is faster than their midgame

by this definition 99% of people are opener mains

even when you dont use any "traditional" opener and just 6-3 from the start you still will be faster than your regular 6-3

because there is less choices to worry about in the first bags

[hidden cove]

true, you are faster at the start, but falling from 3.4 pps to 1.9 pps when downstacking is needed is kinda sad

i've seen games go from 3.2 pps to 1.3 pps as time went on

(it was in S rank i think)

[lusty carbon]

lets just see if there's even anyone sub 2.5ing on top 100 ig

all of the plonkers I've met (maybe including me) feels so nerfed lol

[hidden cove]

i find that if i don't plonk, i get killed by 2.6 pps b2b attacks

[lusty carbon]

yeah but would you be able to kill them

[hidden cove]

after i plonk i start winning

[keen hinge]

i fall from 4 pps to 2.5

thats reasonable

because i simply hone those first bags in sprint

i play a lot of sprint so im really familiar with pretty much every starting bag

[lusty carbon]

that is perfectly fine lol

because you get to read 7 pieces for like 3 seconds

and the next bags after that is braindead

[keen hinge]

thats what im arguing about

[lusty carbon]

probably until the moment you make a bad stacking decision or the opp sends u weird garbage

[keen hinge]

zhun thinks drastic pps fall offs are opener main only things

[keen hinge]

or atleast seems like it

[lusty carbon]

I mean everyone does that opener or not

[brisk dome]

ye

[lusty carbon]

tied to what I'm lazy to backread 😭

[warm hornet]

in an alternate universe everyone teaches sdpc and dpc loop as basic and 9-0 is the meta

I dont agree with your statement that the B+ should be rewarded any more than a regular player; it's like studying solely the test answers

We all know what happens when humans have an easy way out: that's the only thing they'll do

[young elk]

+5 and +6

[warm hornet]

As much as I agree that the changes do kill off the play styles, and that I'd like the PC nerf to be reconsidered, I do not buy the argument that the old mechanics were any better

"The player put their work into better play styles so they should deserve it", so they learned pc loop and basically stay at that same rank just beating up other unaware people in custom?

[warm hornet]

key word: friend

Being beaten by a friend you can talk to is much different than a stranger that you meet for 10 seconds

[keen hinge]

beatdowns are actually good for you no matter what side you land on

[warm hornet]

being beaten when you are new is also much different than a month in when you have not realised there are people dedicated to making your experience terrible

[keen hinge]

if i play guilty gear for example and i meet a guy way better in an open lobby i will play them since thats a good learning experience

because those people punish your mistakes 100x harder than players of your skill level

[warm hornet]

Yes, I do that too

difference?

I voluntary pick a strong player

[keen hinge]

well tetra league matches you with similarly skilled players anyway

at least its supposed to be like this

[warm hornet]

the new player didnt know they are getting an opener main that doesnt mid game

the opener mains never get out of a certain rank

[keen hinge]

that opener main that stomps on everybody will eventually get hardstuck until they learn a midgame

[warm hornet]

the hardstuck is the problem

beatdowns are good when you actually know you're getting it

[hearty dome]

lost my first 18games when i started

never thought it was that bad lol

[warm hornet]

back when i was near A (like 2 months ago) I was stressing out like a ton because i kept getting opener mains half the time

people start out in that phase

like i dont feel anything now despite still losing half the time but getting out of that phase was hard

[jovial imp]

quad pc should at least still be 10 lines right? i mean sdpc is sorta useless now

[hidden cove]

which means the change is working as intended....

[jovial imp]

i mean you can still openermain with sdpc-spin etc

[hidden cove]

the idea is to discourage loops by not making them "an instant win"

[jovial imp]

yeah i mean loops aren't that hard i guess but you always get sent lines when opponent is like ~S-

[hidden cove]

in U rank they typically do it 4+ pps so that they are faster than garbage travel speed, so you either match the 4 pps game or you insta-die

[jovial imp]

my friend moment

[brisk dome]

lmao 4 pps opener is pretty rare in u rank

and you don't have to play at 4 pps, you can shut it down perfectly fine at 2.5

it's just hard to do, and you can't make a mistake

[limpid fjord]

4pps opener is X rank material already

U rank opener loop gets to 3.8pps burst at most and 3.1pps sustained

[hidden cove]

or 4.5 pps opener and 2.3 pps sustained

[dusk marsh]

could happen but like maybe 1 in 20

[obtuse storm]

Probably less

What U ranks can 4.5pps opener

[dusk marsh]

x openers are maybe barely 4 mostly like 3.5 maybe

[hidden cove]

tuesyoi

[obtuse storm]

That’s one out of thousands of U ranks

Not exactly the every game picture you’re trying to paint

[hidden cove]

ok so do you seriously think i have a full list now without TL stats and sheetbot

[dusk marsh]

point is there’s not that many

Happens but like not every game

like I maybe don’t disagree with opener nerfs

but there’s still stuff in this update that maybe buffs it or keeps it about the same

[hidden cove]

it was like 70% of game wdym "not that many"

4.5 not that many sure, 3.5 was extremely common though

which is ok... if it didn't fall to half of that speed if they don't get the loop to kill

i just fought tatoes who did 4 pps stickspin into speedy follow-up and it did 180 APM, it's not like openers no longer send anything.

[brisk dome]

tatoes is fuckin top 20?? of course his opener is going to send a lot for you

180 apm is not that much of opener apm for top players like tatoes

bro how did i even get in this thread again

[dusk marsh]

[meager ledge]

zhun you’re blowing this out of proportion, im like, basically the same rating as you there are not that many 4pps players, or even 3.5

[hidden cove]

it is still the #1 complaint across pretty much every ranked tetrio streams that i've watched

and i personally also hate fighting it because it is honestly silly

i feel like if people had learned any other way to send garbage beyond the 6 seconds of an opener loop, this thread wouldn't be so long

[strong night]

chat we already cooked openers why are we nerfing them even more

season 1 was way too opener heavy but this feels like the valorant chamber nerfs 💀

openers were TOO strong in season 1 and we got the nerfs we asked for with pc sending 6

we never actually played TL with pc sending 6 because they were nerfed to 3

because of quickplay

why cant we have 3 in quickplay and 6 in TL?

is that not

balanced?

especially with the 14 piece double cancel power

[meager ledge]

im willing to see 6 tried in tl

[strong night]

if you really struggle alot you can always

adapt

and start plonking the opener

i really think that with these nerfs opener should be at its proper place

volatile but not ridiculously so

[strong night]

*by this i mean pc sending 6

[marble hedge]

i agree

mostly because of midgame nerf

i don't care about opener pc spam because it's too easy to counter unless the opponent is like double your speed

openr pc was never an issue anyways imo

[broken brook]

current voting results are in:

If PCs send a consistent amount of lines (with no added B2B), it should send 6 lines.
If PCs loaded your B2B instead, it should add +5 or +6 to your count (bringing you up to +1 or +2 charge on PCing with no B2B respectively)

[marble hedge]

idk the old pc system wasn't broken why fix it

it's fine that it breaks b2b because if you are at the point of midgame pc you probably skimmed down to the bottom

i mean in season 1

[viscid hull]

s1 pc was definitely broken

[marble hedge]

how

most people only do them in opener stage

and in opener stage it's easy to counter

[viscid hull]

@hidden cove in your opinion would you think changing pc to send 4 clean be a buff or nerf to pc?

[marble hedge]

4 is def a nerf compared to 3

because 4 just gives your opponent free counterspike and leaves you with nothing to build

[broken brook]

pco dpc loop was actually hard to counter, almost impossible if your pps is really high

[viscid hull]

well yeah thats what i thought as well initially

[broken brook]

it's basically just sending 10 spikes over and over and you can't do that frequently with downstacking

[viscid hull]

but actually playing it feels like its pretty easy to ct4

so 3l was barely cheese

[marble hedge]

the old system was good because if you midgame pc it sends 10 -> if you pc again you have a 20 attack in those pieces and has a chance to kill

if you aren't good enough to countinue pcing

i.e. you just rng it

then it doesn't kill the opponent

[viscid hull]

who cares about midgame pc

[marble hedge]

because you can't follow up

[viscid hull]

its a gimmick

pc changes only affect opener

and opener pc was busted

[marble hedge]

i play <2pps and i can break pc loopers that play 4pps i think it was fine

[broken brook]

i still disagree about midgame pcs being 10 since rng killing ain't fun (along with diaostack but that's something else)
but i also disagree with it being 3 since . bruh, midgame pc? 3??

[marble hedge]

midgame pc is not rng

[viscid hull]

it is

[broken brook]

it . it is

[marble hedge]

💀

[broken brook]

odd/even parity, garbage arrangement, etc.

not to mention actually spotting it

[marble hedge]

odd even parity is the only rng component which can still be manipulated

[broken brook]

and spotting it while your opponent's pressuring

[marble hedge]

it is a skill you can learn it's just difficult so people don't bother

now it's 3 lines sent so no one is gonna bother anyways

[broken brook]

nah no one's intentionally gonna go for a midgame pc unless it seems possible

[viscid hull]

midgame pc is not a skill

[broken brook]

yeah 3 lines no one's gonna bother

even at opener pcs no one's bothering pco unless it chains b2b

[viscid hull]

but all thats besides the point

[marble hedge]

resolving your board into pcable state is a skill

[marble hedge]

sorry you are just flat out wrong

idk how else to say it

[viscid hull]

lmao

agree to disagree ig

[marble hedge]

do you think getting 10 combo ds spikes is rng?

[viscid hull]

yes but less so

[marble hedge]

because you can 100% stack for them funnelling is a real thing that people do

can u get it from rng? ofc

does it disregard it being a skill? no

[broken brook]

you can intentionally induce rng events sure

[marble hedge]

just because you don't have the skill to intentionally midgame pc doesn't mean it is only rng please stop saying that

[viscid hull]

again, all of this is besides the point

[broken brook]

i mean, by that logic, t-spins are rng since you first make the t-spin with random pieces then dump unneeded pieces to the side

[viscid hull]

midgame pcs dont affect the outcome of the game in most cases

[broken brook]

but yknow t-spins rng is easier to manipulate than ds which is easier to manipulate than midgame pcs

[marble hedge]

they did for me in old system because i follow up with more pcs

it was balanced since 1 pc which may be achieveable through rng doesn't kill

it's only 10

if you have the skill you get more after

[viscid hull]

and how many times are you gonna midgame pc in 1 game

1/2 times max

how many times are you gonna pc opener in 1 game

pretty much every round if you're an opener main

hence pc changes cater towards openers, not midgame

[marble hedge]

there is already opener stage nerf

[viscid hull]

?

[marble hedge]

what

[viscid hull]

wdmy

[marble hedge]

"For the first 14 pieces, if the amount of garbage pending in your queue is greater than the amount of garbage you have sent, you will be able to cancel double the lines."

did you not read the patch notes

[viscid hull]

yeah

14 pieces

thats not even half a loop

[hidden cove]

4 clean would definitely be a full nerf, 4 is low damage but also clean, altho if it sent 4 lines of cheese that would be funny but potentially busted too.

[viscid hull]

what about 5 clean

at what point would you consider it equal

[hidden cove]

i was kinda thinking 3 clean and +2 guaranteed damage to surge (+2 if you kept b2b surge, set to 2 damage if you didn't) because then it's 3+2 but delayed

but SDPC/DPC loopers are so fast, not sure if that'd still be too much and bring the game back to "oh i must send early TSD again while they TSS otherwise the game is literally over"

[marble hedge]

learn to send lines with the starting bag man idk what to tell you

[viscid hull]

thats a bigger buff than what i was thinking

and i've thought that pc is hella underpowered rn

[hidden cove]

quite a few loops are already strong on their own (MS2 is a c-spin, the wildest loop is BT cannon C-spin)

it's really just SDPC/DPC that was relying on PC being a lil' bit OP compared to every other thing that sends

[viscid hull]

i can consistently finish sdpc in current patch

by your suggestion, i can still loop sdpc dpc fine

[marble hedge]

then why was old pc a problem lol

[viscid hull]

because with old pc i can still loop?

and kill

but with new pc i cant kill

[hidden cove]

old-pc is a problem because it makes the game be entirely about "breaking the ability to perfect-clear-loop" instead of like, uh, playing the game

losing in 7-8 seconds isn't particularly fun so over time a lot of people just leave "because of opener mains" and "opener mains not being fun to fight"

and if you think about it, if the "opener" closes the game in 7 seconds and it depends on whether you can 4pps tki at the right time and otherwise everything after that is just inf-ds wars with no APM, then the game phases are extremely "misproportioned"

[ruby flax]

I don’t want to ever encounter a blitz main with Season 1’s rules

[marble hedge]

send a tsd

and ur good

there's a reason you don't see dpc looping done successfully at the top level

it's because people realize that you can learn to counter it

[viscid hull]

did smolfeesh not peak like top 100

[marble hedge]

there's 2 people in the world who actually take advantage of pc spam opening

the skill required to pull it off is higher than you think

skill required to counter is not alot

keep in mind blitz player doesn't mean you always pc pc dpc there can be forced recovery

and missdrops

so learning to blitz loop doesn't mean that it will work

takes hours and hours of time to make it actually viable in old system

not to mention

indirect effect of nerfing pc looping is that 4 wide is extrememly buffed

the usual counter to 4 wide is to send a pc so they are forced to start combo early

now that it sends 3 you are guaranteed to get cheesed

even b2b spam is nerfed so there really is no counter to 4wide at the moment, season 2 is just become cheese fest

[rapid turtle]

I think midgame pc are still too heavily nerfed. Like really, a pc is worse than a quad or tsd?

There should probably be a “pc margin time” where after 30 seconds the pc attack gets stronger. Say +0.1 lines/pc/second

[meager ledge]

in a way, PCO sends 5 because of the comboing and stuff

it takes 4 lines to send 5, so uh... in a way you can send 1 line of cheese......

not saying thats the perfect amount of damage for it to do but

i mean

idk

[rapid turtle]

I’m okay with nerfing PCO, at least as an opener

But midgame pc needs a buff.

[carmine sand]

it shouldn't end games either lol

[brisk dome]

just want to say,

as joan said, spotting midgame pcs and making your board pc-able absolutely can be a skill.
however, these opener and pc nerfs are geared towards lower ranked players for whom a midgame pc is almost entirely based on rng. if you have the clear-headedness, the macro, the vision to outdo whatever rng there may be and consistently get midgame pcs from your own skill, you are probably not very low ranked.

[viscid hull]

explain to me why its prevalent in every rank in the game then

maybe except like B rank and under

[brisk dome]

probably because its just fun to send a lot of lines and have a good chance of winning if your opponent is out of it lol

its not crazy hard to counter or break loop, if you dont make a mistake

for high ranks

lol

[viscid hull]

thats a massive if

[brisk dome]

yeah i mean

for like under high u

its kind of hard to do much against if your opponent is that much faster

but that kinda goes for midgame too

if your opponent is just that much better, you are going to lose

i guess people just dont like thinking that if their opponent didnt use a strong opener, they could've won

honestly if you want to get better at the game you should be focusing on your own faults and working on them, not someone else's

idk

if it makes it less fun for people though

then it does

[viscid hull]

i think the issue is\

[brisk dome]

idk what am i even saying all of this has been said already

[viscid hull]

theres no other opener in the game that forces such a restrictive response

arguably 4w is the other

but 4w is shit

[brisk dome]

and people don't like being forced into one strategy?

[viscid hull]

yeah

[brisk dome]

i can understand that, idk why i didnt think of it like that before lol

[viscid hull]

additionally

you're forced to do something just to survive

[brisk dome]

i mean thats the whole game but

[viscid hull]

theres not too much counterplay

is what im trying to say

[brisk dome]

i guess yeah

tbh i dont mind looping being nerfed

but i do still want an interesting opener phase

[marble hedge]

pco used to be a way to start aggressive play

now it's just cheese moment

[brisk dome]

dont forget the 2 b2b!! its super good!! it makes pcs almost worthwhile!!

wow!

[marble hedge]

gotta love the 2 b2b when to countinue pc chain i gotta skim

[viscid hull]

give pc gang a few weeks and they'll find a b2b preserving pc loop

[marble hedge]

it's already done

swng made a b2 preserving loop

[viscid hull]

is it good though

[brisk dome]

i mean yeah stopping people from looping pcs is one of the main things

b2b bonus basically means getting a pc will be good for your midgame

but its just.. not enough

2 does nothing

lol

[marble hedge]

fesh was like 1 player that was capable of midgame pcing effectively in high rank and people just saw that and thought "wow this is a problem" even tho only one person can take advantage of it

that doesn't even play anymore

[brisk dome]

it's not that

[marble hedge]

gettign a pc midgame is usually breaking b2b tho

[brisk dome]

the main reason for these changes is, again, that low ranks die to a single midgame pc, and it doesn't feel fair for them

[marble hedge]

and even if you do pc with b2b held

[brisk dome]

it's about the low ranks, not people in high x

[marble hedge]

you have a clear board

nothing to upstack on

[viscid hull]

really

did osk change pcs with midgame pc in mind

[brisk dome]

yes, it's always been about the low ranks

pretty sure

[rapid turtle]

PC Should be +20 b2b, so it is a quick b2b setup. Especially with the 24 b2b level.

[viscid hull]

what the

[marble hedge]

yea but making the game beginner friendly can be done without making every top player want to kill themselves

[viscid hull]

PC should give +10000 b2b

+9996 surge

[brisk dome]

that's true, which is why i believe a more creative solution is needed that actually is much cooler than either the old system or the current one

[obtuse storm]

who has ever complained about midgame pc

[brisk dome]

everyone fully enjoying the game is the ultimate goal

[marble hedge]

there's already opener phase nerf i think moving pcs to s1 rules would be fine

[viscid hull]

thats what im saying

[obtuse storm]

lol

[viscid hull]

i thoguht it was a non issue

[obtuse storm]

not going to lie i've never heard of people say something negative about them

[rapid turtle]

Making the supporters enjoy the game is the ultimate goal

[brisk dome]

maybe look some of the messages up in this thread from zap or something idk

[marble hedge]

when i was low ranked and my opponent midgame pced i was impressed more than anything

even on the losing end

you respect the player that gets it

[obtuse storm]

this is all i saw when i was backreading

unless you mean a lot further back

[brisk dome]

ehh idk

i remember seeing more

[obtuse storm]

idk about you guys but i rarely see midgame pc

and even if it happens its basically rng so i don't really care

like it's not something you can abuse

[brisk dome]

i mean the rng is basically why

[obtuse storm]

and i've never seen anyone else complain about them, pc power is just too strong at the start when you can memorise dpc and abuse that

[brisk dome]

yeah i guess thats the main reason

[marble hedge]

it wasn't a problem coz getting 1 is 10 attack, doesn't matter if rng it won't kill it's just 10 attack

getting more after requires skill

and could result in kills

[brisk dome]

again, these changes are geared towards lower ranks for whom 10 lines is a lot

for u ranks and x ranks

10 lines is not a lot

for b ranks, it is

[obtuse storm]

how often are B ranks finding midgame pc lol

[marble hedge]

season 3 early access to U/X real

[brisk dome]

not often, but when it does happen, it's very rng based

obviously there are enough people who dislike this that osk would like to change it

[meager ledge]

i wont lie, its not very easy for me either
beating a fast, memorized setup with a fast, unmemorized setup is hard, theres no way around that really

[marble hedge]

i understand this arguement but i do believe

[obtuse storm]

not convinced midgame pc is a real problem

[marble hedge]

lower ranked matches

are just luck based anyways

[obtuse storm]

did osk say these changes were targeting midgame pc nerfs

i was under the impression it was about openers

[marble hedge]

if one player is at the top there's rng chance they just downstack 20 spike and win

[brisk dome]

mainly openers lol

[marble hedge]

should combos be nerfed?

ofc not

[obtuse storm]

basically everything is op against lower ranks

lower rank builds 4w and wins

[brisk dome]

mannnnn idk anymore

my opinion has developed a lot over the past couple weeks

every time it's settling in one spot there are good arguments popping up in the others

[marble hedge]

like you shouldn't be punished for learning something theoretical and going against someone that just stacks

[obtuse storm]

yea its ok if there's reasonable counterplay

[marble hedge]

pc spam is putting time into learning a strategy

[marble hedge]

pc is all clean so there is reasonable counterplay, i rarely die to pc spam

[brisk dome]

i'll just trust that osk and the team will do something that everyone can get behind

[marble hedge]

when i do they are usually double my speed

[brisk dome]

they are the professionals after all

[marble hedge]

yea as is preseason

i think needs balancing

[brisk dome]

these days of unranked i hope, are going to be helpful for osk

there is a lot of feedback everywhere

its all different and everyone has decent points

[marble hedge]

with pc nerf and b2b nerf it just feels like aggressive play is not allowed anymore

[obtuse storm]

i think this is a silly argument

[meager ledge]

guys, i just checked this, and---

[brisk dome]

yeah honestly going fast and sending a lot of lines should be Good, ,,

[meager ledge]

we can test this stuff

[brisk dome]

its not an argument, im just being lighthearted bro

[marble hedge]

true

[brisk dome]

lol

[obtuse storm]

lol

idk what that means but sure

[brisk dome]

idk

i just think that osk and the team will do well

[meager ledge]

https://tetr.io/#ALLCLEAR

if anyone wants to test values with me for a short while

[brisk dome]

there are times when one thing isn't as good as some other thing, yet has higher potential and can become better in the end

i feel like that for this

surge isn't crazy fun for a lot of people right now, but it's a new way of translating b2b into attack, so there are many possibilities to enlarge things, make them more interesting

[brisk dome]

rip i gotta take a shower

[meager ledge]

oh lol

wait are you the guest in the lobby

[rapid turtle]

Yes

Observations: pc giving mostly b2b makes it infeasible as a looping mechanism. Rather it just becomes a one time thing that is easier to counter

[obtuse storm]

sdpc has a non-trivial chance to keep b2b

maybe 30%+ from my experience and even higher if you purposefully skip pc, and then possibly higher if people map out b2b routes properly

this can lead to problematic sdpc looping that maintains mega b2b if uninterrupted

[brisk dome]

-# fumen?

jk

[obtuse storm]

lol

[viscid hull]

yeah, if you skip pc by placing s/z pre-emptively you can go into kuruma dpc which has good tet%

b2b 22 with sdpc dpc lol

[obtuse storm]

what is kuruma dpc

[brisk dome]

video when

[meager ledge]

my personal observations so far

• 6 or 7 is alright IF the non pc-er knows how to use the opener phase rule. however, you definitely cannot assume everyone can make good use of it. (and everyday misdrops are quite a lot more dangerous.) and definitely dont add b2b to it.
• 0 damage and only b2b makes cancelling pco quite easy (i dont remember if we tested loops). giving it a high b2b like 10 is a little absurd, especially with the cheese. b2b-maintaining pc solves are especially deadly with a high b2b bonus.
• extending the opener phase did... nothing that i remember.

[brisk dome]

intersitng

[viscid hull]

this one

and the s/z version

[obtuse storm]

Ah ok

[young elk]

i agree with wanting pcs to have a chance to kill
indifferent about 10lines though

[marble hedge]

kuruma dpc also has alot of allspin b2b holding ability

i think giving pc b2b was the wrong choice

just makes it possible to develop better opener loops and nukes midgame pcs so we get the worst of both worlds

i tried playing with pc sending 7 since a perfect clear is a more difficult task than making a tst which sends 6

7 is too OP with b2b

removing b2b made it more neutral

[obtuse storm]

i think pc b2b is fine

i think it's a cool decision that might or might not work out but so far it doesn't seem problematic to me

[marble hedge]

it makes pc more of an opening tool than something you get rewarded for finding midgame

swng already found b2b keeping loop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYESsHo5pY

this was season one

[brisk dome]

bro

wtf

alright im gonna main this now

tysm

[marble hedge]

lmao

[hidden cove]

woah mr t-spin making a comeback

[gritty mango]

why are you still here arguing 💀💀

if others share the same opinions i think their words will suffice

rather than you acting as a universal spokesperson

[hidden cove]

countering selection bias, the people who actively look for a thread called "all clearf nerf is too heavy" won't be those who are happy with the changes now that the game isn't about sending an early-TSD with 4 pps and then doing whatever

but it would be nice to have even more opinions

especially from lower ranks

[broken brook]

considering that everyone saw the all clear nerf, i don't think selection bias is at play here
this thread would not garner a net +50 if people agreed with the nerf

[hidden cove]

there's no reason for your everyday person to come to this discord, go to feature requests, and look for a thread called "all clear nerf is too heavy" from a list of threads if they agree with the nerf

they'll be busy playing the game instead

now that rounds take longer than 4 seconds

[broken brook]

there's also no reason to do so if they don't agree with the nerf

average player doesn't even know there's a discord

[hidden cove]

exactly

so no matter what you do, you'll get a biased vote count

[broken brook]

so that means currently the representation of the votes in this thread is from the people inside this server, who are hardcore fans of the game that look at this server regularly

78 of those people said "yup all clear nerf is too heavy", while 28 of those people said "nnnah not really that's a justified nerf"

that doesn't seem like selection bias to me

remember 7+x? that was an even vote because people were so split about it

this is a fkn majority

[hearty dome]

real

bring my all clears to 6 scattered 1 block cheeses pleas

game cant get enough cheese rn

[hidden cove]

7+X definitely got people to vote because even the lower ranks came in and sometimes asked "the bag is wrong, is this a bug"

[broken brook]

you're talking like there aren't lower ranks in this thread lol

[hearty dome]

it doesnt allow counterspike and it gives you time to rebuild ur board and make use of the b2b before they downstack everything you sent

[hidden cove]

not sure if've en anyone below S rank in this thread tho

[broken brook]

there may be even more lower ranks since yknow some of them are opener mains and wanted to +1

[hidden cove]

well a lower rank who is an opener main should feel ecstatic to actually play the game they've been scammed out of by the existence of sdpc/dpc

[hearty dome]

erhm

[broken brook]

that is just flat wrong lol

no one's happy when that happens

[hearty dome]

i can play fine without sdpc/dpc despite being brought up by it in tetris

lol

its not like i feel scammed or anything its just funny to have some opener

[hidden cove]

There's plenty of other openers even now

[hearty dome]

not everyone who wanted to learn tetrio with opener has ur pov

[hidden cove]

That are all viable

[broken brook]

besides sdpc is still viable on 3 garbage all clear, i've used it to get high b2b fast

[hearty dome]

its not viable

[broken brook]

oh and yup you don't have to worry about sdpc anymore! because stickspin has come back

[hearty dome]

unless you are playing someone half ur tr

lol

!

yeah its pointless

[hidden cove]

that means the all clear nerf wasn't heavy after all, it's good enough

[hearty dome]

wasnt that heavy

.....

joever

[broken brook]

i used to counter stickspin using sdpc
now can't counter it no more 😔

and so does 4 wide

[hidden cove]

at least stickspin is a spike opener (currently mildly nerfed by the removal of b2b chaining) and not a PC loop via dpc

[broken brook]

there's 2 counters to 4 wide, b2b chain spam and looping
oops! both don't deal as much damage anymore

so basically instead of 0 reigning openers, we now have 2

[hidden cove]

I don't know a good counter to C4w yet this is true

Other than maybe bt c-spin loop

[broken brook]

same thing? both send a spike thats roughly equal

though sdpc season 1 is slightly weaker because of the b2b break (except for quad pc)

but now that sdpc is nerfed there is only stickspin

[hidden cove]

Sdpc-spin I guess, so nothing changed, just made survival for all ranks a bit more viable

[broken brook]

and funnily enough stickspin can't counter 4 wide

sdpc-ext is too slow against stick

spike sends out before sdpc-ext does, and sdpc-ext requires you to stack high

though that's just a theory, i'll look into it more in tl

[hidden cove]

Not extended

[broken brook]

oh wait lol yeah

it's still the same attack pattern as stick though just with a different setup

[hidden cove]

3rd bag is more reliable

[broken brook]

valid, but still sdjfhf

lmao all this talk and ms2's just below sea level rn

there's probably more opener research potential though now that all spin is introduced

[sacred wasp]

There's a stick loop

14L

[broken brook]

dunno if it's reliable?

[hidden cove]

that's the one with the sick Z spin in it

[sacred wasp]

Ye

Met one that mains it

Has bad midgame

For a 24.4k

Prob crutch

[broken brook]

well that's no fun lol

[sacred wasp]

Other that that

[hidden cove]

no surprise there, loop being crutch

[sacred wasp]

He uses DT

That's it

DT loop too...

No surprise

[broken brook]

dt best counter spike opener

change my mind

[hearty dome]

uhm

[sacred wasp]

While being counterspikable

[broken brook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iy8bxxI3Dw

[sacred wasp]

PCs are only valuable if you can keep the b2b

Otherwise

Its quite a junk

You cant use it for surge till you start investing b2b

[meager ledge]

how about this. we dont vote, we just have a reasonable discussion. lets not try to “win” or “balance” the sides and simply figure out what is good.

[strong night]

this is why i think we should at least try 6l pcs before the preseason ends to see if its any good 🗣️

[dusk marsh]

[brisk dome]

fr

[dusk marsh]

midgame pc is kinda boring now

only 3 lines

[brisk dome]

yeah fr

[broken brook]

again it really sucks especially in tournaments

no more "MODGAME PC MIDGAME PC" hype

just "icly going for a midgame pc and clears it, anyways"

[hidden cove]

on the other hand, it doesn't make sense to optimize the game balance for the top 20 when you have 59980+ people playing it and said balance makes the game miserable for most people (60%+) then it should still be altered nonetheless

[humble granite]

And you're not speaking for those 60k.

Regardless of opinion on PC during opener being weaker or stronger.

Im sure its not only the top 20 who want midgame pcs to have some special meaning.

[dusk marsh]

it’s bassically if u buff pc it buffs opener except u can counter opener maybe

[rapid turtle]

I think the best way to buff midgame pc is to have them send more lines later on

Probably with pc garbage margin time and increase

(And maybe cap)

[hidden cove]

beta 1.1.1: all clear damage is 5

[willow abyss]

Oh snap

[hushed mesa]

5

[quick prism]

5 seems good

[dusk marsh]

free tss into quad

maybe

[amber rivet]

I will return to PC looping in protest

[bold smelt]

I wish they buffed the B2B instead (PC giving B2Bx3 and therefore immediate 3 surge could have worked nicely)

[dreamy sleet]

5 is way better

[dusk marsh]

is it 5 clean maybe?

[broken brook]

LET'S GO CHAT WE DID IT

keep this thread up though i still think 5 ain't too good?

it's definitely better but, eh

[meager ledge]

3 to 5 sounds right just by ear

[broken brook]

b2b being dunded down to 1 is an interesting choice considering b2b x3 now brings you up to 3 charge

[meager ledge]

it has just occurred to me that the btb thing could still be op considering that all spins are now in play, and loops could (maybe idk actually) maintain btb more easily

breaking btb for the pc bonus was an interesting trade off before imo

if the btb bonus is to be removed in a later iteration, id be interested in having it break btb regardless of the clear

so, spin pcs or quad pcs break anyway

perhaps i can code it and see how it feels in a singleplayer setting

[warm hornet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwqMnLIs2a8

anber was defending westl's 5.8 pps loop while going 3.9 and won

[round hedge]

ok but like thats top players

most average people are gonna get owned by someone openering 50% faster than them

[pliant crow]

THE WALL

[marble hedge]

after having tested a bit

(i tested with 7 attack)

i wasn't able to cancel double my speed loops

so i think 5 damage is good

tho PC is a more difficult line clear than tst so should be awarded more imo

[strong night]

5 damage very nice on average sdpc sending around 13-14 which is viable but definitely not optimal

more balanced fr

[dusk marsh]

Did u only support it for sdpc

[strong night]

no

if i did i would be asking for 10 again

this is nice tho

if ur looping like 5 pps vs 2.7 ur still gonna win but most normal cases just looping loses

[dusk marsh]

Sdpc is kinda clean now tho

[dusk marsh]

probably

[strong night]

but new surge makes td opener and 14 line openers go crazy with counterspiking lmao

surge doesnt really feel like spiking tho more like

poking

[ruby flax]

Why’d they increase the All Clear damage 💀

[strong night]

u poke someone with 6 lines of cheese

[ruby flax]

Look what you all did

Now the AC loopers are back

[strong night]

it was 3 💀

[dusk marsh]

[strong night]

its 5 now 💀

[ruby flax]

Why not compromise and lower to 4

[strong night]

thats HALF of season 1 still 💀

the compromise was 5

most people wanted 6

[dusk marsh]

what is 4 gonna do

[strong night]

who opener main*

[dusk marsh]

free quad

plus 1 prob won’t kill either

[ruby flax]

I want people to just play fucking midgame that’s interesting instead of opener maining

[strong night]

great then just stall and use the 14 piece double garbage cancelling 👍

[dusk marsh]

I would maybe agree but some people also don’t like to stall maybe

[strong night]

well that sounds like a personal preference

they put it in the game for a reason yknow

[ruby flax]

Or why not make ACs give you 2 charge or something

[strong night]

they did

earier

earlier

it was still cheeks

did you not play tl

[ruby flax]

No they gave 2 b2b. If b2b was not started at the moment you had 0 charge

[strong night]

why would you get 2 charge from a b2b at 0

that does

[ruby flax]

But I’d rather anything that highly nerfs ac looping

[strong night]

absolutely nothing

5 garbage highly nerfs looping bro

instead of pc>pc>dpc people be dying to pc>pc>dpc>sdpc>dpc>pc>pc

its already been nerfed if you cant counter it with all these nerfs there is a problem with your stacking 😭

[ruby flax]

ac>ac>dac>sdac>dac>ac>ac? Seems long

[strong night]

the point was you need way more looping to kill people.

it does half the damage.

[dusk marsh]

it prob can be easily countered by like maybe tki or smth

[strong night]

one tspin counters a tetris pc in the first 14 pieces

lmao

fully

[dusk marsh]

o ya

[brisk dome]

yeah lmao

[lusty carbon]

why u talking like osk doesn't know what he's doing

I havent played it yet but before update I was literally regretting taking pco out of incstincts

so this is a good change

im not even an opener main, it sucks to be punished for doing an opener that was perfectly normal previously

[hidden cove]

it's funny how looping was so OP that halving the pc damage is effectively "maybe this is ok now"

the problem with nerfing opener looping so severely (as in, down to 3) was that c4w's theoretical counter was looping

and now c4w was effectively free-win

though i do hope that AC DMG down to 5 is not gonna bring opener focus back entirely. Kinda whack how AC is now clean garbage again mid-game but so it is then

[lusty carbon]

lowkey this update just nerfed everything and made things more survivable (not that it's bad)

I enjoyed the volatility of s1 and high efficiency but owell

[ebon ice]

My pc just sent 11 lines

I like this change 👍

[hidden cove]

proof that opener pc nerf was a good idea

but maybe 5 is ok

i mean i was planning on 3+2 which is effectively 5 in my proposals anyway

[ebon ice]

I think pc right now is balanced

No need to increase or decrease

Midgame pcs are still iffy but 5 lines and keep b2b is decent enough

[hard marsh]

Because WestL misdropped

[lofty dragon]

he got 6 pcs before misdropping, that is still a lot to survive at 5.8pps vs 3.9 pps

and also that match laster way past the opener phase

like he misdroppped the pc at 00:17 and the match lasted until 00:58

[sacred wasp]

surge makes defense way harder

they spike then survive then they skim you get hit with another spike that is all cheese and suddenly its unsurvivable

(based on experience)

[keen hinge]

this is why surge should be clean and clean only

[sacred wasp]

ong

[marble hedge]

use it to defend

these changes are making b2b a necessary thing to keep which is overall just gonna make everyone forced to stack better

[keen hinge]

does this mean no more 10 pps 0 apm korean stackers

[marble hedge]

yes !!

it's so good

like if you were just line clear ds player

ur just nerfed into the ground

it's so good

feels so good that now i am incetivised to attack more coz the attacks actually do something

[drowsy trellis]

we changing official Tetris guidelines with this one🗣️

[hidden cove]

good thing this ain't an official guideline game

[hidden cove]

this sounds... good ? ?

[marble hedge]

yes

[keen hinge]

how about everything but quads and spins backfire

[marble hedge]

just play zen at that point

makes vs more vs is good

[hidden cove]

zen does have backfire mode

[sacred wasp]

my board is way to cheesy to even build my b2b

the next moment i immediately get spiked trying to recover

i might have to develop stride

[marble hedge]

y i have no idea what ur taking about coz after balance change the games i have had have never been cheesy

it was all cheese ds when preseason started

[broken brook]

cheese heaven

wait so if this is a b2b heaven game shouldn't cheese be generally discouraged by the game

[hidden cove]

i think it's called tetrio, not b2b heaven

[broken brook]

😭,,

fair

[marble hedge]

it is

rn u can't win withou b2b

[broken brook]

yup

,,so why cheesy,,

[marble hedge]

cancel it :v

[hidden cove]

i just ds it

[broken brook]

ds and cancel is borriiinngggg i wanna do the 14-combo ending in a quad smh

[hidden cove]

sounds like a c4w user in the making, luna special making comeback

[broken brook]

honestly i might just do 4w, spread the word that there's literally zero counter to it by defeating everyone in tl

like a mini protest

[dusk marsh]

why

[broken brook]

if rebalance doesn't happen now 4w will spread later

[dusk marsh]

how much do you consider rebalanced

[broken brook]

following must be counterable, meaning it can be survived by the opponent using a different opener / midgame method:

• sdpc / ms2 / pco / any pc reliant opener
• c4w / 3w / 2w / any combo reliant opener
• stickspin / extended sdpc / bt / dt / any t-spin reliant opener

like a "rock paper scissors" type thing but you're aiming for every combination to have at least one tie (except playing against an opener with the same opener)

currently pc reliant openers are now cooked, t-spin reliant openers are shining but can still be counter spiked as usual, but combo reliant openers have no counter

previously in s1, combo reliant openers are countered using looping
pco -> 2nd -> 3rd -> ... -> 7th is the strongest opener of s1 (if you can pull it off lol) but it's still rather counterable, so i consider s1 to be balanced in terms of openers

[obtuse storm]

no counter

how did the players who didn't know how to loop counter 4w before

just sending pressure with something like tki should be enough

[broken brook]

unfortunately there is the chance of quad

[obtuse storm]

there was always the chance of a quad lol

[dusk marsh]

the opener meta was balanced as long as you looped pc

which was also a opener

[obtuse storm]

lol

yea crazy thing to say

[broken brook]

well, yeah

[obtuse storm]

and no one was saying 4w was op before

[broken brook]

again cause osk's original intent was to nerf 4w to hell in s1

success imo

[dusk marsh]

[obtuse storm]

so why are we complaining about 4w now

[broken brook]

well, what are your counters to it?

[dusk marsh]

there tki , dt, bt, ms2, 4w, and more

[obtuse storm]

like literally anything that sends pressure

[dusk marsh]

like 1 t spin takes away like 15 attack from the 4w

[broken brook]

14 piece rule?

[obtuse storm]

Well luckily 4w doesn’t send any attack in the first 14 pieces

Lol

[dusk marsh]

not like u can't just tsd spam