7+X-Bag in TL

[chilly robin]

nobody said you had to like it

but

[torpid acorn]

you basically called me insane for not liking it

[chilly robin]

to quote you

"who the hell are you to complain about tl changes"

[torpid acorn]

false equivalency

[chilly robin]

now i said i was going to lie down about 20 minutes ago so im taking my leave

[torpid acorn]

maybe take a more civilized approach the next time you do

[chilly robin]

false equivalency my ass you have no right to be like "omg you have no right to say that shit" and then you proceed to be entitled all over this thread in the face of multiple reasonable arguments

now i really must go

[torpid acorn]

you called me insane. ad hominem

I had every right to react the way I did

personal attacks aren't going to get anyone here a solution

[winged tartan]

[mystic yoke]

im literally typing and untyping, considering whether this is worth anything

[golden drum]

Real

I'm just watching the arguments unfold

Because ik my experience is vastly different than others because of my playstyle

[torpid acorn]

doesn't mean your thoughts aren't valid

[golden drum]

I can't make good arguments for either because most of them would be redundant or personal

[torpid acorn]

every perspective is valuable

[winged tartan]

i pray and hope that the implication scares someone because these are regular visitors, compared to the two other people i banned from all of #1020054329782186065 (the only way to actually remove people)

[golden drum]

Lmao

[torpid acorn]

I know i've been pretty passionate in here, but flaming isn't justified ever

you cant remove people from a single thread? I guess that might be complicated idk

[winged tartan]

i can but they can literally just rejoin lol

immediately, no delay
i'd need @lyric heart to automate it and even then they could still send a message before it could detect anything (and you can't remove "user was kicked from the thread" system messages. at all.)

(and yes the aforementioned people i blocked out of this thread did abuse discord reactions)

[open lion]

me def not me as a regular visitor

[winged tartan]

[golden drum]

Not me always checking up on this thread to see what people are arguing for now

[pseudo heron]

this is self-defeating; if the test group is separate, then people who like 7+X will stay in the test queue while the people who don't like it will avoid the test queue

the whole point was to impose it on everyone to generate better feedback

[grand topaz]

imagine trying to test something and people are afraid to test it because it's different

[quick sapphire]

They're not afraid to test it. They just don't want to lose access to the current TL.

That isn't a crime

I do think a short term testing period isn't terrible though. If you really don't like the changes you can voice your feedback and wait for the duration to end. You must have other games in your library to pass the time?

[grand topaz]

there were plenty of people saying "i didn't actually queue in TL because i am an opener main and i would have lost TR, but my opinion is [things i think without having played it]"

honestly most things i claim about 4pps sdpc/dpc looping is probably invalid. Like, you gotta recognize which pattern it is (and DPC for which extra piece).

but i don't do it, so my comments are nonsense.

[quick sapphire]

The reality is they would have lost tr.

Any change to the bag system for dedicated opener mains will absolutely cripple their TR.

[pseudo heron]

interesting how this level of dishonesty isn't present in people who support 7+X or something like it

[quick sapphire]

I know at least 3 people that will absolutely drop at least one rank if there was a change to 7 bag.

[grand topaz]

i'm sure they have the mechanical skill to adapt

if you got a rank you can get it again

[pseudo heron]

kill-opener mains like to tell people to learn how to adapt; well, they can adapt to 7+X

they really want to have it both ways

but I digress

[quick sapphire]

Eventually yeah but if you only attained that rank because of the sequences you learned from 7 bag it's gonna cost you quite heavily.

[grand topaz]

the hidden unsaid secret

"just learn to play" "no not like that" kekw

[tired flame]

. . .

the issue is the unexpected unannouced changes to a ranked mode

[torpid acorn]

Lots of people volunteer to test things. Many games use test servers. tetr.io recruited a group of players to test... something, so they could concievably do that for anything

There's no reason to be "afraid" if it's not going to impact their live TL stats

Many games utilize public test servers to great effect

[torpid acorn]

it really does not work that way. at a minimum people would have tried it, not liked it, and left feedback accordingly. And feedback is what you're after

It's no less "self defeating" the way it was done. People see "hey they're messing with the settings maybe i shouldn't play right now" and I'm sure some people did.

[pseudo heron]

with separate test queue: kill-opener mains just avoid it entirely and give feedback based entirely on their initial hypothetical thoughts

with one queue for everyone: no choice but to try at least once if you want Tetra League, so more feedback

[pseudo heron]

they're testing something that will completely change the game. it will barely resemble what Tetra League looks like. the new systems are far deeper and far harder to balance than the current systems. the whole test group is necessary in order to refine the whole idea and its features

meanwhile, 7+X was a fairly surface-level change. better to throw everyone into a quick test of it

the Character System test group is also way smaller and consists of people who can offer detailed feedback. it's meant for players who already have a good amount of game knowledge. remember that 7+X was meant to benefit players who don't have that good deal of knowledge

there is absolutely nothing deep about 7+X to warrant an entire testing queue/team

[tired flame]

where does this assumption of if there was a test queue it would be avoided comes from?

Isn't this what having a test group for?

a group of people willing to test and give feedback.

Why would someone supposely a tester avoid testing something?

[pseudo heron]

so let's say that osk announces a test group for 7+X

kill-opener mains would avoid it because 7+X would get rid of their instant win button

they'd just play normal TL instead and wreck noobs

so the 7+X group would be skewed MASSIVELY toward supporters of 7+X or something like it

major self-selection bias

osk would be getting feedback disproportionately from people who agree with it

meanwhile, with how 7+X was tested, the only way out of it was to skip Tetra League entirely for a full day, so some players who would avoid opting into a test group (begrudgingly) played a game or two, and maybe they were pleasantly surprised

I don't think a self-selected testing group would have been as forthcoming about explaining why openers are necessary

the kill-opener mains do have a point about the game being really sluggish at the start without openers, and I think that bit of crucial feedback would have been largely missed if they just opted out of the test

there would have certainly been less conversation, and consequently less learning for each side of it

[quick sapphire]

I don't think anyone from either side was happy about that but

[grand topaz]

I was busy in another town but got home and played 6 hours, was fun

[quick sapphire]

There seems to be some sort of unwritten thing on both sides about how short or long a round should last.

How can any of us say how long is "too long"?

I think MT kicks in at the right time because at 3-4 minutes you're at that point where neither player seems to be able to kill the other and the game itself turns spikes up to 11 to try finally get a winner.

[pseudo heron]

that's not what I'm talking about; I'm specifically talking about how players seriously flounder and struggle to gain momentum in the beginning with 7+X

it's less bad than being on the receiving end of a kill-opener in the middle ranks, but it's still a major drag on the gameplay

[torpid acorn]

Not really. Like I said: if they see that the rules are not to their liking ("openers will be harder to find"") they will just not play that day. Either way there's going to be some bias in the results.

[pseudo heron]

I'm sure osk or ZaptorZap would gladly explain why creating a separate test group for something so surface-level isn't a good idea :)

there's a good chance that either of them can explain it far better than I can

but either way, asking for there to be an entirely separate test group for something as surface-level as 7+X is a huge cope because not being able to use kill-openers is only a very mild inconvenience

if not being able to use kill-openers for one (1) day is that much of a deal-breaker, just play Jstris

[grand topaz]

imagine that the separate test group confirms that they like the changes, and the opener-mains have to cope when it gets re-integrated into regular TL after

[pseudo heron]

but I'll reword my issue with the separate test group idea in a way that hopefully makes more sense:

osk wants to hear both sides. if kill-opener mains could opt out of the 7+X test, osk would get less feedback from them. consequently, more feedback would be coming from the 7+X supporters, and that would create a larger blind spot

kill-opener mains have raised valid criticisms of the 7+X system. now imagine that osk got less feedback from them due to opting out. those valid points would not have been raised so much

[winged tartan]

sorry, no deep thoughts from me right now
i'd mostly just reiterate that it'd lend itself to major selection bias, like you said

that said i'm a proponent for overwatch arcade-type modes so take that as you will #1234285631505436782 message

[torpid acorn]

They would? Because that's exactly what they did. Or did you never notice that "want to help test something?" pop up

[torpid acorn]

tetr.io's wide range of custom options and modes does lend itself pretty well to this kind of concept

[pseudo heron]

have a screenshot?

I never saw that popup

[torpid acorn]

Testing groups do have selection bias, as you said, but so do these involuntary tests

[pseudo heron]

you're just saying things

[torpid acorn]

I'm not just saying things

[pseudo heron]

the involuntary nature of it reduces the selection bias problem

[torpid acorn]

It really doesn't

because if you dont like what you see you simply will skip playing that day/week/whatever

[pseudo heron]

once again, you're just saying things

you're talking in circles

[torpid acorn]

You can call it w/e you want, doesn't make it true

You're "just saying things" too

it's a meaningless statement

[pseudo heron]

ZaptorZap agreed with me when he said that a separate opt-in test queue would create major selection bias

[torpid acorn]

Yes, he did. But he didn't comment on the other side.

He's also a person with an opinion just like you and me

it's also "just saying things"

[pseudo heron]

lend itself to
this particular phrasing indicates that opt-in testing would create bias that would not exist in "involuntary" testing

[torpid acorn]

again, it's a useless comment

[torpid acorn]

the involuntary method has its own biases.

EVERYTHING has biases.

The only question is how significant

[pseudo heron]

and the biases of "involuntary" are less significant; that's why osk pursued it

[torpid acorn]

Like I said, some people will simply skip playing and you won't get their feedback

[pseudo heron]

with opt-in, you get more skippage

[torpid acorn]

Just like some people won't sign up for a test group and you won't get their feedback

Maybe, but I'd argue the feedback would be more useful since people who opted in are probably going to test things more thoroughly

[pseudo heron]

you get more skippage with opt-in because there's a lot less friction to avoid the test

[torpid acorn]

as opposed to, as you yourself said, someone trying "at least once" and then not trying again

It might get you a little more feedback, but it stands a chance of being less useful feedback

There's a reason why so many games utilize "public test realms"

[pseudo heron]

if it's "involuntary", there's a lot more friction if you want to avoid 7+X

[torpid acorn]

and I don't think it's because they don't work

[torpid acorn]

It's not like there's nothing else to do within TETR.IO itself

I myself played on it for a little bit, and quit earlier than I would normally have because I didn't like it.

[pseudo heron]

and if there were an opt-in queue, would you have opted in?

[torpid acorn]

If it was opt-in, I might have signed up for it and thus had been more invested in testing it and giving real feedback

[pseudo heron]

but would you want to?

[torpid acorn]

Personally, yes. I like testing things

It is how I got into a whole bunch of game communitites

[minor socket]

I feel the feedback given overall would be biased. As the people who are willing to give the feedback would just be a skewed selection of the playerbase

[torpid acorn]

Yes, but all feedback is biased.

[pseudo heron]

oh my gosh you're talking in circles again

we've been over this several times just in the last several minutes

[torpid acorn]

Sure. But someone new has entered the chat

said the same thing. And I said the same thing

because that's how I feel and I'm sticking to it.

You're not going to convince me that the method that was employed here is better

than simply using a test group

and as I said, they in fact do have a test group

[pseudo heron]

thanks for saying the quiet part out loud

[torpid acorn]

There was never meant to be anything quiet about it

[pseudo heron]

you're not here to have an honest discussion - you are admitting here that you just want to waste people's time

[torpid acorn]

Standing firm on a position is not having a dishonest discussion

nor is it intended to waste time

[pseudo heron]

my stances are firm, but the difference here is that I'm actually open to changing my mind

[torpid acorn]

I'm open to my mind being changed

you're just not achieving that

[pseudo heron]

You're not going to convince me
I'm open to my mind being changed
pick one and stick with it, please

[torpid acorn]

I don't need to pick one because there's no mutual exclusivity

I'm speaking to you specifically

because I've heard your argument and find it unconvincing

[pseudo heron]

you're clearly here to waste people's time as evidenced by how much you talk in circles

[torpid acorn]

I don't talk in circles

[pseudo heron]

why is it that people who defend kill-openers are more dishonest?

[torpid acorn]

You keep using cheap statements like that to make other people look bad

thus I would argue you aren't interested in honest discussion either

[pseudo heron]

anyway, I'm done talking with you

you're clearly being dishonest, and you're clearly wasting people's time

[torpid acorn]

good

I'm not being dishonest

And I'm sorry if you feel your time was wasted

But I'm not trying to waste anybody's time

If you have a better argument, you could change my mind

But the one you gave is not the one

it's that simple

[chilly robin]

you're my hero, you know that?

not you

[torpid acorn]

When I said "you're not going to convince me," it is because you yourself demonstrated an unwillingness to budge on your position

[chilly robin]

discord replies to wrong people

smh

@pseudo heron you

[torpid acorn]

You're being really toxic, you know that?

[pseudo heron]

what's the intended message?

[chilly robin]

you're my hero

💯

[torpid acorn]

How is he your hero

[pseudo heron]

the message you meant to reply to

[torpid acorn]

They are being just as stubborn as they are accusing me of being.

[chilly robin]

oh this one

[pseudo heron]

ahh thanks ❤️

[torpid acorn]

You're both toxic and being intentionally degerating towards me

[chilly robin]

you know

what was it you called it

ad hominum or something something

this is like

exactly what you're doing with that statement

right

[torpid acorn]

Sure

But you are also doing so, just less directly

By praising someone for attacking me

[chilly robin]

im jsut showing up to show appreciation to one i admire

i dont quite see how thats toxic

[torpid acorn]

You are praising and admiring someone who was attacking me

That's toxic

[chilly robin]

it was simply their latest message

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torpid acorn]

And your feelings have also been well established

so you and I both know the real reason

[chilly robin]

no only you

[torpid acorn]

Again

you are supporting someone who is being aggressive towards another user

[chilly robin]

i came here for real discussion and literally one message in you're attacking me

😢

[torpid acorn]

I'm not attacking you

It's just a fact

If you are actually interested in honest discussion

like they claim to be

then show it

[chilly robin]

also in response to this,
involuntary leads to elss bias
im sure thats why they proceeded with it

im pretty sure you were told this but w/e

[torpid acorn]

Yes, that's what they said.

And I pointed out that they also use a testing group.

So clearly, that supposed lower amount of bias isn't the reason or isn't a big enough issue

If it was that big of a problem they never would have considered that

At least, logically

[chilly robin]

well, your suggestion of opt-in add more bias and has like
zero benefits outside of play enjoyment? except not really its jsut like play count for that one day

if you could tell me what makes opt in better than opt out

[torpid acorn]

The thing is, it wasn't simply a suggestion

They already do it.

[chilly robin]

how so

[torpid acorn]

well for you then- Did you never notice that "pssst, want to help test something new for TETR.IO?" pop up on the main menu

that's gone now but was up for like over a month

[chilly robin]

no i've never actually noticed it i was on hiatus for this month

i was pinged for the day it was in tl

[torpid acorn]

Well, they in fact solicited testers for some mystery new feature

Specifically recruiting (seemingly) players in the low to mid tiers

Some people with really high TL rankings were excluded for being "too good"

obviously only osk could tell you the selection methodolgy

But the point is

they have used and tried both methods

there are clearly merits to each

Your hero was insisting that the forced method is simply better due to less bias

if that was a hard and fast rule

I don't think they would have considered or used other methods [for testing]

[chilly robin]

right

both methods are different

one does hjave elss bias though thats

kinda true

[torpid acorn]

So maybe I said it wrong but

I was pushing back on the idea that it is the definitive method

not that it's a bad idea outright

[thin grail]

this is not for alpha testing, it's for beta testing

[torpid acorn]

I don't think that's an important distinction

"alpha" and "beta" also have wildly different meanings to different developers

[thin grail]

beta tetrio is very different

this is in the FAQ if you want more details

[torpid acorn]

for many big name devs, "betas" are largely publicity stunts

But others do use the term differently

[thin grail]

again this is explicitly pointed out in the FAQ what beta means for tetrio

[torpid acorn]

I don't think a rule change for TL and pushed to the live game is an "alpha test" though

[thin grail]

The testing popups are for the new gameplay, please don't bring that up here

[torpid acorn]

I'm aware of that

it's still for testing things and it's still relevant to this discussion

[thin grail]

call it whatever you want, but the current game is called alpha

[torpid acorn]

That's fine

that's the developer's choice to call it that though

Like I said, it means different things to different people

[pseudo heron]

anyone who thinks that 7+X and character system are remotely on par with each other (in terms of how much gets changed) should not be taken seriously at all

[torpid acorn]

I never said anything of the sort

[chilly robin]

i feel like you might have implied it somewhere for them to come to this conclusion

[torpid acorn]

I'm speaking in the broader terms of testing things in general.

[chilly robin]

anyway im missing what your point is

[torpid acorn]

I'm in game dev myself. I've spent years testing things

[chilly robin]

like if you agree both testing methods ahve their merits

[torpid acorn]

I know all about selection bias and all that

[chilly robin]

despite the testing methods being mostly irrelevant to the actual 7+x system and what it does

[torpid acorn]

Well yes. It's a more abstract discussion

we got here simply because of the approach that was used to get feedback on 7+x

[chilly robin]

right

so why do you hate 7+x again

i forgot

[torpid acorn]

lol

its fine 🙂

[chilly robin]

it was a while ago when iw as last in here

cut me a break

[torpid acorn]

no you're good

It's basically because I think of it as too dramatic of a rule change

that I think would be harmful to players coming in from other similar games

Many of the strategies employed in TETR.IO today are broadly used in other similar "stacker games" (to use osk's terms)

[chilly robin]

i dont quite understand this
tetrio is already very different from other games

[torpid acorn]

that's probably another discussion lol

[chilly robin]

it doesn't have enforced handling like guideline
has emasures in place to intentionally nerf certain strategies
has both an incredibly rewarding back 2 back system and multiplier systems

[torpid acorn]

but at its core it uses much of the guideline ruleset, just without any delays

[chilly robin]

its not like a simple bag change for the first 35 pieces is the straw that breaks the camels back

though i can agre eit is a rather disconcerting change

[torpid acorn]

I would just liken this rule change to swinging a sledgehammer

[chilly robin]

i can't visualise the similarities

[torpid acorn]

you're basically removing tactics that are well known far beyond just TETR.IO

[thin grail]

the no delay change is far more impacting than it seems

[torpid acorn]

You're not wrong

But it's the same seven tetriminos, the same clear lines to send garbage, the same pretty much everything else

and currently, the same 7 bag system

The same builds and strategies in other games work here to varying degrees

[chilly robin]

didn't singles send in prior games or am i forgetting something

i remember something in the line sends combo table was nerfed because of 4wide

[torpid acorn]

I'm not familiar with any official Tetris game that had single lines sending garbage *outside of a combo

Did tetr.io have it at some point?

[chilly robin]

not afaik

[thin grail]

those things are not unreasonable: there are only 7 ways to arrange 4 blocks in connected fashion; there is really only one way to fil lines; tetrio does have different randomizers?

[torpid acorn]

yes, but all of that stuff is optional

Just as a core concept I don't like the idea of simply removing strategies you don't agree with

[thin grail]

tell me there is an optional 8th way to connect 4 blocks

[chilly robin]

well its hardly not agreeing with

[torpid acorn]

It would be better to try to adjust balance in some way

to make those strategies less overbearing

[chilly robin]

openers are incredibly powerful to the point of being mandatory in almsot every versus game in even lower level play

[torpid acorn]

I mean, they did this with 4 wide

4 wide got nerfed, and you can still do it it just isn't as ridiculous as it was before

I don't see why we can't do the same thing here

[chilly robin]

especially towards the middle rank bands, openers can flat out win games and even in top level play openers can outright claim rounds for free

[torpid acorn]

As I noted, many popular openers involve one or more PCs right near the start of the game

PCs don't commonly happen otherwise

[eternal merlin]

I’ve been told openers matter less the higher rank you are by X players

[torpid acorn]

thus, nerfing PC garbage could help

[thin grail]

I'm not disagreeing with 7-bag? but the same way people don't play with pairs randomizer, I judge 7-x as a better randomizer to use in gameplay with respect to tetrio's mechanics

[chilly robin]

stickspin & sdpcspin both dont involves this
and most of them ahve routes with both pcs and continued b2b sending

i dont think pcs are the whole problem

or even the majority of the problem i think

[torpid acorn]

My issue is 7x doesn't simply make openers harder

it essentially eliminates them from the game entirely with maybe some special exceptions

some people don't like that you can memorize something and perfect its execution to win

[chilly robin]

um unfamiliar with a 7+x openers database unfortunately

as far as i know most things are unbuildable

[torpid acorn]

which is why we're having this discussion

[pseudo heron]

this is a deliberate mischaracterization of the rationale behind 7+X

[chilly robin]

yes
but id ont think its solely that fact

it again

is incredibly powerful

[torpid acorn]

There's no deliberate mischaracterization of anything

[chilly robin]

like the fact it can win games is incredibly concerning

[chilly robin]

you... kinda did

[torpid acorn]

if you feel something is being "mischaracterized," then you're going to need to elaborate on that

[chilly robin]

its hardly a disagreement
openers ARE very powerful

would a nerf be unjustified? not really.

[pseudo heron]

at low to middle ranks, the easiest way to counter a kill-opener is to use another kill-opener - the ideal strategy is literally "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

[torpid acorn]

Yes. I don't disagree

[eternal merlin]

There’s a difference between nerf and removal tho

[torpid acorn]

The only place I disagree on is the solution

[chilly robin]

yeah there is

[torpid acorn]

hence my opposition to the idea presented by this thread

Like I said: My preference would be to try to find ways to balance these strategies

[chilly robin]

yeah, but the mischarachterization is where you said "youd ont agree with"

at least it hink

[torpid acorn]

over outright removing them

[chilly robin]

sorry for my atrocious spelling it is currently 4am

[torpid acorn]

no problem

I greatly appriciate the respectful responses

[pseudo heron]

I support something like 7+X but nicer - instead of 3/2/1/1, perhaps 1/2/2/1/1 or 0/2/2/2/1 could work better

that way, small openers still work, but kill-openers don't

[chilly robin]

0/2/2/2/1 is an interesting prospect

bag 1 works but followups dont?

[torpid acorn]

thats kinda better, but I still don't like the idea of taking game knowledge, kind of throwing it out the window, and forcing everyone to learn something totally new

[thin grail]

stickspin main when they don't have T

[chilly robin]

idk how to build stickspin do idk what you mean here

[pseudo heron]

"learning and experiencing new things is bad" is certainly an interesting take

[torpid acorn]

I mean

it's kinda like playing chess, and deciding that knights teleport 5 squares away instead of the L movement they currently have

[thin grail]

I think this is hardly an issue; when kill openers exist people from other games do need to learn new things coming to tetrio

[torpid acorn]

it's a change and it affects the game and people have to learn things, sure.

but is it really a good idea?

[pseudo heron]

if people can switch between NES and guideline without much trouble, I don't think a minor tweak to the randomizer that only applies to the start of the game is going to be much trouble either

[torpid acorn]

Making people learn new things just for the sake of it doesn't seem like a great idea to me

[thin grail]

this is another mischaracterization of 7-x

[torpid acorn]

then tell me

how should it be characterized

[eternal merlin]

-x?

[torpid acorn]

I'm looking at what it does

how it affects the game

[pseudo heron]

then why should any iterations be made to anything? why bother improving when everything can remain the same?

[torpid acorn]

and what goal it is trying to achieve

[pseudo heron]

dude, if you want Just Another Guideline Game, feel free to play Jstris

no one is stopping you

[torpid acorn]

when you iterate on something, you suually aren't completely changing it

you are incrimentally adjusting it

sure, version 10 might look totally different from version 1

but there were 9 steps in between

[thin grail]

first bag has no O and T

[chilly robin]

this is changing the way the entire game plays out and seems alot more dramnatic than

changing the first 5 bags of a game

[torpid acorn]

Well this reflects how dramatically I think 7+x changes the game

[pseudo heron]

7+X is an incremental change; it's just one thing that got changed

[chilly robin]

first 5 bags is 35 pieces
at 4pps thats not even 10seconds of minute+ rounds

[torpid acorn]

It has more of an effect on the game than these lines of text make it seem

[pseudo heron]

7+X is also a very surface-level change

[eternal merlin]

You change the meta completely, it’s a big change. You’re also changing a core mechanic

[torpid acorn]

like I said, for one: it directly and specifically eliminates strategies some part of the playerbase don't find desirable

But it does more than that

[chilly robin]

personally 7+x plays

really weirdly if anything

it feels awkward but thats feels

[pseudo heron]

and most players find that dying to kill-openers is undesirable

[torpid acorn]

the start of the game plays entirely different

[chilly robin]

i personally prefer it to opener hell though

[torpid acorn]

and much more randomly

[chilly robin]

but thats me

[eternal merlin]

So learn to survive them?

[torpid acorn]

in a game that, outside of Classic Tetris, is well known for its patterns

[chilly robin]

cad has arrived to tell us all to go to #1234943910430773289

[pseudo heron]

just learn to deal with 7+X; I don't understand what's so hard about it

[torpid acorn]

Mischaractarization

[mystic yoke]

99% of the problems discussed here would be addressed if we had more comparable tests than 7+x 😭

[torpid acorn]

Look at the reactions at the top

[chilly robin]

i see 93 +1s and uh 85 x's

[torpid acorn]

its a small sample size but one group doesn't have dramatically more than the other

[pseudo heron]

you've already been told why those reactions are not representative of players' opinions

once again, wasting people's time

[torpid acorn]

Your opinion is noted

[mystic yoke]

Look, it's nice to call out logic terms and all, but reducing people's comments to just a term is very rude

[pseudo heron]

opinion? it's literally a fact

[torpid acorn]

You guys are doing it to me.

[chilly robin]

who is you guys

[eternal merlin]

That’s a dumb argument, unless they go at +2 your pps you can survive and counterspike pretty easily

[chilly robin]

i have been perfectly respectful

[mystic yoke]

I havent talked with you at all till now

[chilly robin]

the issue here is uh

[torpid acorn]

Dismissing me with "wasting people's time" and "talking in circles" instead of constructive statements

[chilly robin]

+2 pps isn't unrealistic

especially in lower ranks

[pseudo heron]

I say the same about kill-opener defenders who would quickly tell B- ranks to survive and counterspike kill-openers

[thin grail]

+2 pps is maybe an exaggeration but +1.5 is a thing

[chilly robin]

i mean

[torpid acorn]

I actually do like that other bag idea

[chilly robin]

for example with loops

[torpid acorn]

at least, more than this one

[chilly robin]

2pps gap is entirely reasonable

[thin grail]

set your handling to default and tell me you survive

[chilly robin]

even with extended and the like

[eternal merlin]

It’s an issue in lower ranks but the higher you go the less openers matter unless it’s some crazy opener main but again those are decently rare from my experience

[chilly robin]

2pps is reasonable advantage to have

[eternal merlin]

So the issue is for newer players

[chilly robin]

the thing is

lower ranks is the majority sam

no everyone is a high u/ x rank

[pseudo heron]

the whole point of 7+X is to benefit the lower ranks

[pulsar umbra]

The first time I saw someone even going 2 pps was in S rank, I believe a gap like that isn't very realistic

[chilly robin]

its kinda realistic

[torpid acorn]

I mean you could have different rules at different levels but I'm not sure that's the best idea either

[chilly robin]

inss
(im a VERY bad example of this) i can and will play 4pps opener mains

alot of time

[torpid acorn]

(TBF, we do have different rules for sets at different tiers, but that doesn't affect individual games)

[eternal merlin]

Okay maybe we should get some lower ranked players input then? Also openers are nice because it means less thinking on your own where to place pieces. DT and stuff is very nice to get into 9-0

[mystic yoke]

the choice isnt 7+x and current system, but 7+x and continuing to develop options vs current system
I think we can simply test more options as Osk implements them

[torpid acorn]

I'm open to seeing more options

[eternal merlin]

For newer players

[chilly robin]

more options is something i'd like to see

especially fond of #1234909644003213392

[torpid acorn]

but I would prefer not to simply thrust it onto TL

[pulsar umbra]

My personal opinion is that 7+x is at least better than what we have now

[torpid acorn]

something like a new bag could easily be tested anywehere i.e. qp

[chilly robin]

this is also

[pseudo heron]

there's a huge difference between openers like DT Cannon and kill-openers like stickspin

[chilly robin]

definitely what i second

[mystic yoke]

7+x existed in customs before testing in TL yeah?

[pseudo heron]

openers aren't the problem; kill-openers are

[chilly robin]

i prefer &=x jankiness to opener hell in tl

[torpid acorn]

I think there might be a better option than what we have now, but I don't think 7+X is it

[chilly robin]

dt kills at lwoer ranks

[eternal merlin]

So why try to hard to push for 7+x instead of other alternatives that doesn’t just kill the whole opener phase

[chilly robin]

it is literally a death sentence

[pseudo heron]

I'm not advocating for 7+X as-is

[eternal merlin]

Honestly not as often as you’d think

[chilly robin]

i was down there

[torpid acorn]

one of the problems I have with this is some people will inevitably just say "you are opener main thefore you don't want this to change"

[chilly robin]

dt is scary

[mystic yoke]

That's cool, we vibing

[eternal merlin]

So was I and vika used/uses it and doesn’t win even 25% of rounds with just DT

[torpid acorn]

This is a little more up my alley

[chilly robin]

winning 1/4 of your rounds in 10-20 seconds is uh

insanely good

[torpid acorn]

I really would still rather just see balance changes. Maybe it won't fix all openers but it would fix many of them

[pseudo heron]

for a randomizer-based solution, I prefer a "7+X but nicer" that allows low-bag openers but not kill-openers

[eternal merlin]

That’s still killing a lot of openers and PC stuff that aren’t kill openers

[torpid acorn]

That 0+?+?+?.... approach

I actually do kind of like that

[chilly robin]

it also feels like an insane disadvantage and can elad to panic stacking trying to egt down (something i've seen quite a bit of in b even a rank gameplay after a big opener)

but thats not to do with 7+x so i'll elave it there

[pseudo heron]

would 0/2/2/2/1 really be that devastating to low-bag openers?

[chilly robin]

eh

not really

[eternal merlin]

I know a lot of openers that don’t kill but are more than 1 bag

So yeah

Also you make the choices less

[torpid acorn]

this is honestly one of the better things I've seen come out of this thread.

[chilly robin]

most openers aren't 1 bag

[torpid acorn]

See

now you have my attention

[chilly robin]

but alot of openers have strong-ish bag ones

[pulsar umbra]

Mr. T spin 🥺

[torpid acorn]

you actually could get me behind this

[chilly robin]

hi kessa

[chilly robin]

no, because good openers are very conducive to freestyle if you're skilled enough

[torpid acorn]

hi kessa 😄

[chilly robin]

hi all :)

[pseudo heron]

under 0/2/2/2/1, a two-bag opener probably wouldn't be much more difficult than under 7-bag - first bag is untouched, and second bag is slightly more difficult

[chilly robin]

your local friendly sdpc main checking in 👍

[mystic yoke]

being good at freestyle is conducive to freestyle

[chilly robin]

it can be really hard to freestyle cleanly in 7+x

just as a point of reference

[torpid acorn]

and you thought you couldn't convince me of anything

🙂

[mystic yoke]

for the 1000th time here, 7+x affects more than opener

as a restate

[chilly robin]

can you testify on the efefct of openers in hi u / x

[torpid acorn]

well actually

let me rephrase

I thought you couldn't convince me of anything

[chilly robin]

its the first 5 bags

[pseudo heron]

hey, don't put words in my mouth like that - you're the one who said that I couldn't convince you of anything

[torpid acorn]

Yes I did

[chilly robin]

i actually misunderstand what it does besides nuke openers

[torpid acorn]

And thats why i said "let me rephrase"

[pulsar umbra]

Messes up how I bag count

[pseudo heron]

oh right, I missed that, sorry

[torpid acorn]

it wasn't the intention to be dishonest

i just said it badly

Which is how things usually go for me

[mystic yoke]

idk about kessa, but openers dont really affect me
just the same shit to cancel like any opener

[chilly robin]

you're also like
god of defense cad

kessa is x rank opnr main

which is like apparently insignificant in x rank

which im curious about mostly

[mystic yoke]

kessa farms stats off opener but he's actually a normal midgamer

[torpid acorn]

I knew Kessa when they were just U XD

my how far they've come

[chilly robin]

openers are almost always used; very rarely will someone just start 6-3 or 9-0 stacking or whatever

in order of popularity: tki, pco, other tsd opener, ms2, sdpc/stick

[mystic yoke]

in no particular order of popularity tbh

[chilly robin]

this is so backwards compared to ss and like low u
i will see sdpc/stick more than anything, even pco

it's also uncommon to die to pco or tsd openers in u/x outside of catastrophic misdrops

[torpid acorn]

My experience mostly looks like this

[mystic yoke]

sounds like one of the biases

[torpid acorn]

for me the bulk of my losses are catastrophic misdrops, those are the norm for me LOL

[mystic yoke]

what is it, worse things stand out more?

you wont notice living a normal opener

[chilly robin]

surviving sdpc/stick is relatively trivial
its just
really wack because sometimes they'll tank and rng spike you
sometimes they'll be so fast they can pc anyway

like certain things "counter " it but inr eality these counters dont even work always

[thin grail]

honestly uh the x rank perspective is more of a bias if anything

[mystic yoke]

opener threat isnt opener frequency

[chilly robin]

opener frequency is uh

easily sdpc the most

dt is occasional too

tki and pco are almsot nowhere comparatively

[torpid acorn]

I try to do different things in different arounds

[eternal merlin]

I can live sdpc and stick decently often unless it’s some crackhead going at 3-4 pps

[chilly robin]

tki only shows up with a someone who can lst alongside it

[chilly robin]

this

[torpid acorn]

i know and do use certain openers

[chilly robin]

but 3-4pps is super common

sadly

[eternal merlin]

Not for me, then again I’m not SS

[torpid acorn]

but i've also won games by just spamming quads lol

[eternal merlin]

[chilly robin]

you'd be surprised to see how often sdpc works in tl — not that often for me

[mystic yoke]

If i go into the TL 10 of people here, you think i'll see sdpc having like 40% opener over 30% or what

[chilly robin]

even with 3.5-4 pps i get maybe 3 rounds per game at most

[chilly robin]

uhhhh

i'd hazard probably 50%

[torpid acorn]

I can arguably do BTB quads faster than I can do openers

[chilly robin]

maybe more

[chilly robin]

this is very true

[thin grail]

as a 0% opener

i

[chilly robin]

thank you :D you've come quite far yourself too ^^

im swapping to mobile

ill win my rankup game tmrw for sure

[torpid acorn]

Creeping forward one tiny step at a time heh

but all progress is progress

I've found I definitely have to be in the right mindset to play and do well

[thin grail]

this may be a bias: realistically low ranks cannot do this, it's just aimless quad stacking if not opener

[torpid acorn]

it matters more than any tactic or strategy

if im too tired, or not in the right mood or whatever

I'm just going to suck

[torpid acorn]

True. Though the main reason for me is if I do the same thing in every round

i see it as increasing the odds they'll be able to come back and counter

can't have those reverse sweeps :p

going back to that bag idea though

I think it's definitely better if we have the first bag normal

you can set up something basic and then you can free style with what the game throws you the next few bags

so there are some tactics you can still employ which keeps things interesting

[chilly robin]

first bag normal would still kill sdpc and stick 👍

[torpid acorn]

you have these big openers that depend on 4+ bags

messeing with any one of them would make them not work

[pulsar umbra]

What if we just remove the Z piece? Not too fond of red

[torpid acorn]

lol

well it may have been roundabout but I am happy to see more ideas come forward

[mystic yoke]

Im so fabulous at rerouting conversations

[quick sapphire]

From what I've seen so far we've gone from giving valid criticism from both sides to just mindless ranting and people repeatedly taking the thread off topic.

There isn't going to be much more effective suggestions / critisism / feedback at this rate.

Everyone has a side to choose. Either for or against a change to the bagging system.

All feedback is gonna have some degree of bias.

There has been a lot of "I like the change so it should happen " / "I dislike these changes and think they're terrible so they shouldn't happen " Which contributes absolutely nothing what so ever.

The changes to the game need to benefit the game. Not you.

[mystic yoke]

that last sentence is rly reductive
It's very difficult to share one's own thought process in entirety, easy to post pieces then collect

I get that it feels repetitive for new people to reiterate 7+x constantly,
I do wish old people would stop

[winged tartan]

ogh

[winged tartan]

you never saw that popup because you weren't eligible for the latest wave of insider applications
here's what they look like:

i don't think i'm at liberty to really say if the program is relevant atm

[torpid acorn]

What benefits the game is subjective to its players though, that's the problem

We're all going to be at least slightly biased towards what we think makes the game better for us- even if we consider how it will make others feel. That's the thing about bias, you can't eliminmate it entirely

[torpid acorn]

so there are/were conditions to whether or not it would appear for a given user (regardless if you met the requirements as outlined on the form) ?

[winged tartan]

pretty sure if you were eligible (as decided by https://insider-applications-24q1.osk.sh/) it would always appear

[torpid acorn]

ic

I filled it out quite some time ago and it stuck around for a while though i havent seen it recently

So I just assumed they were done (for now at least) looking

[winged tartan]

i feel like the form would be totally taken off if that were the case

it might not do the ingame banner thing tho

[quick sapphire]

Yes. So it's important that whatever changes are made by os k Make the game better / more fun for the many, not the few.

[torpid acorn]

Well again, it's still subjective; but I've never suggested that action be taken for the oute4 edges of tge bell curve

But generally I agree with tge sentiment and it annoys me in certain game communities where people want all game balance to be based on the pros, even though tge rank and file playerbase will be affected differently

I've played warcraft III a very long time. It is very common for people in tge community to say something should be nerfed /buffed because some pro player always/never uses some particular unit: or that one race is too weak/strong because fewer/more people in the top 10 are using that race

And they demand buffs or n3rfs on tge sole basis of what they see tge pros doing- even if those changes would adversely affect regular players

[rigid zenith]

too good to apply

[quick sapphire]

Same

[long palm]

same

[grand topaz]

same

[golden drum]

Same

[winged tartan]

[earnest socket]

same

[pulsar umbra]

😔

[chilly robin]

i was also too high

upsetting

[onyx tide]

oh im 40% of the way there

[mystic yoke]

mmorpg vibes, that one

[pulsar umbra]

I think even ss is too high

[quick sapphire]

Can confirm.

[cyan forge]

> check thread
> derailment

[pulsar umbra]

Nuh uh

[earnest socket]

the realest

[tidal magnet]

is it possible to remove this from the "important to remember"

bc it's not really true if ss is too high

[iron blade]

i mean there's all the ranks below it

[minor coral]

this is not relevant to the topic at hand

[winged tartan]

like it or not, that's still over half of the tetra league ranks lol

[open lion]

Pretty sure majority is also below u rank

Or ss but maybe still is bad cause technically you should have from mayb all skill levels

[torpid acorn]

I got in

ofc im barely SS most of the time

(well when I say I got in, I mean I passed the checks lol)

[brazen pawn]

Bruh

[brazen pawn]

How do I connect discord acc to tetr.io

[winged tartan]

that'd be in https://tetrio.github.io/faq/troubleshooting.html#link

[grand topaz]

SS+U+X literally top 11%

[quick sapphire]

fml when this thread gets derailed it really gets derailed.

[grand topaz]

I think the strategy that people complain whenever people talk on-topic is working

[quick sapphire]

I wonder if there is any internal discussions between staff about any potential future tests. It'd be nice to get an update. I know os k is busy with a lot of stuff currently.

in general it feels like the 24 hour 7+X test has been swept under the rug and buried as if it never happened.

[grand topaz]

I have a feeling osk gave up on it because it allows for 2L PC open sometimes and it's kind of silly when it happens

[mystic yoke]

that's the least relevant thing you could've thought

[grand topaz]

for the lower ranks, a 2L PC is effectively death

[dire zenith]

lower ranks might not even see 2L

[grand topaz]

True

[thin grail]

the odds are not that high

[grand topaz]

It happened semi-often

[mystic yoke]

being able to name a 2l PC once every few sets is not semi-often

[quick sapphire]

I really hope "2L PC opener" isn't the reason we don't get a bag change. ( Regardless of what bag they would have swapped it to ".

[bronze crest]

Kinda an equivalent of starting with two identical 1-color Puyo pairs in Puyo Puyo

Can see the All Clear immediately at the start in both cases

Wonder if "history with pool" would be better

[winged tartan]

yeah lol

[torpid acorn]

wait are you arguing against this now lol

[grand topaz]

it's an edge-case, although i still think 7+X was generally more fun, not having to worry about the extended pony attack

[torpid acorn]

While I still would rather see garbage balance tweaks I rather like th e suggestion earlier with the first bag normal and the 2nd/3rd/4th being similar to 7+x

[uneven timber]

make it alternate between 7 and 7+x every round in a match

opener mains get to enjoy their openers but only half the time, and the other half non-opener mains get to not die in the first 10 secs

everyone is a bit happier

maybe

probably not

[grand topaz]

random bag type for each round

switching between 7, 7+1, 7+2, 7+X

[torpid acorn]

Amusing perhaps but also confusing lol

[torpid acorn]

Let's throw full random generation in there too :p

[pseudo heron]

use ALL the randomizers!

[torpid acorn]

Though tbh I'm a little concerned since we're moving to a seasonal system and it was made very clear seasons will bring about rule changes

Though at the same time, that kind of structure is overall a good thing

[grand topaz]

unironically i would have fun with total mayhem

i already play it in customs sometimes

pairs is annoying

[pseudo heron]

pairs is something that would work really well in very specific contexts (e.g. building 4x4 squares) but is horrible in all other cases

[minor robin]

wasnt that made clear a while ago

might've been in one of the faqs for character system

[pseudo heron]

definitely looking forward to the seasonal system - it will make testing formula tweaks a lot easier

more real opportunities to try new things

[quick sapphire]

I agree. I'm quite excited to see what each season brings to tetrio.

It's not like people don't still have the option to play 7 bag in customs.

[pseudo heron]

the guideline versus formula has remained mostly unchanged for over 20 years. it's way beyond time for meaningful differences appearing regularly

[grand topaz]

with the season reset, doremy wins

doremy said teto needs seasons like half a year ago so it's cool

[cinder vapor]

imo small changes can have drastic swings on the metagame. Puyo's unique garbage mechanics make burst-y openers strong and the messiness of said garbage rewards consistent pressure and timing to cancel incoming garbage. TE:C's garbage starts off incredibly clean which slightly nerfs openers (easier to ds) and allows the opponent to take free line clears to charge their zone meter. So most players opt to stick to a basic 6-3 stack. TETR.IO's attack-based garbage would allow for some interesting opener dynamics and counterplay yet at the highest levels the uncapped handling allows fast players to ignore that entirely so speed tends to matter more than strategy in the opening phase.

Seeing little shifts to the meta could be both a breath of fresh air and also a positive change overall if one strategy is becoming too dominant. Just so long as these changes have been assesed from each playstyle at each skill bracket.

[pseudo heron]

I was thinking about PPT's garbage system for a bit

my hunch could be completely unfounded, but I don't think the uniqueness of its garbage system would easily be known by players who don't already have in-depth knowledge of guideline versus

[pseudo heron]

okay, I gave myself an idea here, but it might be a bit too far-fetched for the season system

square rule:

• use 14-bag
• use connected piece skin
• place pieces to form 4x4 squares

squares can be made from piece fragments. depending on the difficulty of the square (with fragments, different pieces without fragments, same pieces without fragments), inject to opponent's board some unclearable lines. those lines can only removed if the opponent clears 4x4 squares as well

[queen barn]

this is the mechanic from the new tetris right?

[pseudo heron]

refer to The New Tetris to see something close to what I mean about the square mechanic

yeah

but tweaked for a more guideline versus mode

[winged tartan]

how is this relevant to #1225191549881810965 lol

[pseudo heron]

it's a tangent that spawned from discussing the season system

I hope that season 2 has something like "7+X but nicer" as the randomizer

[torpid acorn]

Long as I don't see classic tetris players come in and complain of a "long bar" drought lol

[torpid acorn]

Well the character thing is supposed to be separate from tetra league as I understand it

[torpid acorn]

I certainly hope subsequent seasons dont last 4 years XD

[loud hazel]

im just gonna throw this one in

[mystic yoke]

at zaptor

[winged tartan]

wat

meme? seems relevant enough i guess

just one doesn't mean i should ban them forever lol

[torpid acorn]

is rank badge going to be based on highest achieved or current at end

[winged tartan]

current at end

[torpid acorn]

because if its the latter, it kind of dicincentivizes playing near the end

[winged tartan]

if it's the former, it disincentivizes playing a lot more than "you get nothing if you aren't ranked"
afterall why play if it's gonna go away in a month and you have "no chance" of making it to the next rank?

[torpid acorn]

If it's based on your highest achieved rank there's no reason to stop playing

you can always try to improve it

[winged tartan]

well this is more of a #1255685094514098197 topic anyways

[torpid acorn]

tru

[cursive mango]

so in next season we got 7+x system?

[mystic yoke]

zero leaks

[torpid acorn]

No one knows, the rulesey hasn't veen released. We only know something(s) is/are changing

[pseudo heron]

hope it's not the current version of 7+X because C4W is beyond obnoxious

[torpid acorn]

c4w can't really be disabled by any bag setup

[tough light]

yeah 4w is really hard to stop

[rare sequoia]

but it can become more prominent if its counterplay (opening pressure) is heavily nerfed

[grand topaz]

i won 9 out of 10 games against 4-wide open in 7+x

and the one i lost was because i was a bit cocky and thought i wouldn't lose to it like that lol

[mystic yoke]

and nerfing combos even further will impact top level play

[dense haven]

I suggest partial 7+x bag system

where 1 or 2 rounds' bag system is 7+x and other rounds' is just normal 7

[open lion]

[winged tartan]

[rare sequoia]

i remember one person at least saying they werent very good at 4w after you said you won against them as an example against 4w, were these others all good four widers around your skill range?

[grand topaz]

i think i fought tizago and waterdud too, not just baron

around my skill range but not 24.9k or whatever

[dense haven]

being a huge opener main, 7+x bag is definitely what i would not like to see

however I do admit that current (7 bag) system is kinda unfair

[loud hazel]

can we close this thread for good already

[winged tartan]

everytime you comment the thread won't be closed for another week

but alright considering [it's been deconfirmed for season 2](#1255685094514098197 message) there's not much of a point anymore

[grand topaz]

my hopes and dreams are permanently shattered

so what's gonna be the anti-opener measure in s2

or is s2 really just a way to get the unranked X ranks to play again lmao

we will know in 1.5 months

[winged tartan]

i mean that's more of a #1255685094514098197 topic

[young phoenix]

people are complaining about 4w not being stopped with 7+x, but why not just do what jstris does?

[mystic yoke]

it's kind of a less official fix

it's very gimmicky

jstris implented it to just protect pubs

[pseudo heron]

Jstris's 4-wide detection is very shoddy, and you can sometimes get it to trigger just by downstacking

also, it's obscenely obvious that it's a duct-tape "solution" to a deeper problem

[bronze crest]

Only the New Players room has the NoFW enabled by default

[mystic yoke]

yeah

[bronze crest]

In the remaining rooms, you can 4W to your heart's content

[thin grail]

so do you consider TL for New Players

[bronze crest]

Yes, since TL tries to match against a player with a similar skill level

[coarse geode]

perhaps openers were the reason why 4wide did not become meta, as well as the attack nerf when compared to other tetris games

but changing bag system to 7+x or similar would mean openers are less strong (since u cant even do a lot of them anymore)

so 4wide would become stronger

and yeah; cheese is so annoying to deal with

[coarse geode]

oh sweet

[waxen arch]

4 wide and lst…

I would be curious to see the repercussions of just doing away with consecutive pc bonuses

I.e if you do a loop it’s same as only sending an extra X amount of lines.

If you do a midgame pc after garbage, you can get the full bonus

[quick sapphire]

Stranger things have happened.

[torpid acorn]

Because this is dumb

Tetrio did something far more reasonable in using a different garbage table that's somewhat less favorable to it

the game should never outright troll the player

[tough light]

4w itself isnt that much problem (it can be still a tactic depending on the board state — although it's less favoured by many people), abusing it is problem

[torpid acorn]

The only reason that thing exists at all is in noob rooms so people wouldn't just go in and crush people who don't know the inner workings of the game

it's still a really hacky and poor way to solve the "problem" though

[tired flame]

I would argue 4wide and even 3wide combo stacks killed the growth of versus

PPT, Tetris Arena, Tetris battle, etc 4wide spam was very common and imo too broken

It's also why I wonder if players, especially those new, would want 4w cheese meta or with how explosive openers are currently.

[bronze crest]

Most Tetris Battle videos - either side 4-wide or sometimes ST-stacking

[tired flame]

4w was banned in tourneys for ppt jstris releasing around the same time, im not surprised they added anti4w features

[loud hazel]

imo the thing that made 4w so broken is the fact that its all cheese

[severe spindle]

Uh

• the giant spike

[loud hazel]

pretty much every kill opener sends clean garbage that is easily downstackable and easily punishable on counter spike

[loud hazel]

the giant spike of cheese, yeah

its just waaaaay harder to ds than stickspin or smth

[mystic yoke]

no, it's its consistency that's the issue
even speed widing always loses to even speed b2b

[cloud trench]

not if you can go 5pps

[waxen arch]

Kiwi do be a mad 4wider can confirm

[rich coral]

the thing is though that even if you don't use opener it makes it hard just to stack

[grand topaz]

it does?

i used to be able to stack 4-line-clears with fully random pieces

[pseudo heron]

noobs when they get flooded with S and Z pieces at the start

No Thanks

[thin grail]

i already die if i start with sz thanks

[grand topaz]

i only die to SZ if it's OSZ

[waxen arch]

Opponents stick spin and sdpc mains confirmed.

[grand topaz]

did you reach X rank

[final nexus]

didn't know there was attempt https://ch.tetr.io/u/autohost

although not exactly matchmaking because you could only set tl rank and level limits judging by gitlab page (i should've probably linked that idk)

[unborn ice]

me putting 7+rng with linear tendency to 1

A good way of testing this would be making a tournament

now that you mention it

D and C- ranks might have a harder time stacking

You could make it like the FT, by adding up to 3 pieces depending on the Rank block

0 from D to C
1 from B to A
2 from S to SS
and 3 from U to X+