7+X-Bag in TL

[loud hazel]

also theyre simply fun to mess around with

[thin grail]

The fun argument is to be debated

Explosives are fun to mess around with

[loud hazel]

some people have fun some dont

[loud hazel]

that will eventually happen in any game

[thin grail]

bump

[golden drum]

I've learned to counter openers using their own garbage so I don't need to use an opener

[eternal merlin]

Plonk moment

[golden drum]

For me the opener I use is mainly to help set up zzzspikes

It's more of a "here's an opener that just helps you get into midgame", which I find is really helpful for my playstyle

But that's if you learn how to plonk against openers

And that takes a lot more effort than learning that specific opener or a different one that is essentially the same thing

[grand topaz]

does that work against 4 pps blitz spam?

[tired flame]

why wouldn't it work?

Plonking openers is a legit option to choose to use

I was at a point where i was worried i was opener maining

Not from doing openers

but from all the free KOs from plonking them

and crutching on that

[earnest socket]

i thoughr you were a plonker zhun

ae

[tired flame]

Also think the argument of "4pps blitz spam" is kinda irrelevant

[grand topaz]

i dunno what i am i just suck at this game most of the time and lose to every single strategy known to man

[grand topaz]

sheetbot just says "bad"

[golden drum]

Yes, I've beaten 4 pps sdpc while going 2.3

[grand topaz]

nice

i really am just impatient then

[golden drum]

Lol

I mostly just counterspiked after they got the pc

Sent more than the dpc tsd could cancel

Although

I'm more of an exception lol

I am like 100 plonk

Here's a kinda recent game I had

[earnest socket]

i am the opener main

i main sdpc (sdpc only tho the rest is just freestyle or midgame) and nakavora (which is sdpc but crazier)

and then the rest of the time i just plonk

my playstyle is silly cos i dont practice openers ae

[tired flame]

You can easily sometimes create a "plonkable" board based off some starts then quickly deal with the rng cheese and setup a counter to the bext blitz attack at a lower pps

plonking openers does still require pps in burst

to setup after tanking

and to cycle for pieces to send attacks

but requires less overall pps

it's also why i see it as a skill issue when people fail to deal with openers or players who opener faster

well this is assuming not very drastic difference in pps/burst pps

if someone is 2x-3x their speed then that's also just getting outclassed

I do see in videos and guides, and in a lot of issues in lower rank players

is a very poor downstacking basics

so openers that spike the board is kinda unbalanced

but it's why I think the 4pps blitz is not relevant because if someone can 4pps they are likely in the higher ranks where its an skill issue

You always have the option as the slower player to seek out more plonk setups

hence why 7+X imo doesnt really solve the issue

there will stil be players who will burst very fast then slow down later

but 7+x makes plonking not really viable

10 bag 9 bag 8 bag 8 bag is a direct nerf to being able to setup and cycle to the right pieces. assuming the opponent will speedrun the 7+x bags then spam b2b right after

which is basically going to lead the same issues currently just delayed by pps*35 pieces

[golden drum]

For me I also just feel less efficient with the first 35 pieces, probably because it takes longer to cycle to attack pieces

[open lion]

My opener apm is also probably mostly lower than my midgame

[rare sequoia]

There are way too many arguments for that to be doable, most of which also span a ton of messages. This thread has almost 15k messages for a reason

[winged tartan]

yeah lol honestly it would just be "popular people's one message favoritism"

[rare sequoia]

yeah and then the responses would need to be pinned and so on

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289 what if we use this thread

[grand topaz]

has it been actually 6 weeks since 7+X

[torpid acorn]

it has been. and hopefully 6 more

and 6 more

i mean look at the reactions. the community is clearly way too divided

[grand topaz]

this is where the fact that people tired of 7-bag and the current state of TL quietly leaving shines

[torpid acorn]

I don't know anyone who is "tired of 7-bag". And anyone who is is probably a Classic Tetris person and was never that interested in tge modern games in the first place fir reasons that likely go way beyond the bag system

[eternal merlin]

Imo openers aren’t an issue but plonking and inf ds is. This is clearly just because of my own experiences with it in TL and my opinion. I’d imagine everyone will see this differently depending on what they struggle/think is unfun to play against in TL

Which this is basically adding and saying nothing which I know

[bronze crest]

Imo plonking is necessary if facing against an opener - in order to survive the opener

Infinite downstacking is an issue with the roots in the garbage vs Tetris concept

(the garbage being free fuel for attacks, so sometimes it's beneficial to tank some garbage)

And the TIO's "character system" is supposed to remedy those problems

[eternal merlin]

I’m just saying everyone will have different opinions depending on their own experiences and playstyles. Which is why the community is so split

I don’t think you’ll ever get an answer that can please everyone

Also i feel like everything that can be said has been said, rn isnt it just the same arguments repeating over and over

[pseudo heron]

this is a very broad and incorrect generalization; please avoid mischaracterizing people's criticisms

[pseudo heron]

reactions aren't representative of community opinion

[grand topaz]

if I wanted to bring in old tetris games for "it was better in my days" then instead of openers I want 1-next where clearing multiple lines creates power-ups on the board to collect like blockquake and add line and clear line and block bomb and switch boards, and you can stock those up and use them at will on yourself or your opponent

[grand topaz]

Tho there's something to that having slightly more random pieces would liven up the stacking a bit

[rare sequoia]

Imo plonking and infds also add variety to the game and allow for more counterplay against opponents who are faster or send more lines other than to just be faster yourself

[mystic yoke]

I've noticed many players adapting against me by trying to send cheese, not realizing that Im just efficient but still calling me plonker

is it a bad trait if i find many dses with b2b?

[thin grail]

that sounds like inf ds if you don't upstack and plonker otherwise

[mystic yoke]

i've further noticed people playing against inf ds and complaining about it tend to suck at ds themselves

whenever they post to #921928025929576468

[mystic yoke]

I hate how people use plonking as well

plonking is not just winning at slow pps

plonking is heavily considering what the opponent is sending

Gabe is negative pps, but he barely considered macro

in fact, some slow vs fast matchups are just a slow person having better strider fundamentals

[grand topaz]

I'm salty when I get out-inf-ds'd because I mess up when gravity enters + the margin time effectively kills me with 2 quads, real sadge

Still skill issue. Opponent shouldn't be able to live 4 minutes

Need more 2-wide

[loud hazel]

show me a single person like that

like ive only ever seen you bring that point up

and nobody else

[grand topaz]

you could ask herma_etc and manabender

[grand topaz]

They don't play tetrio anymore. I think manabender hasn't played in 2.5 years

[hybrid depot]

you're literally naming two people but ok

[hybrid depot]

the fact there's no resolution yet should be enough to show that this is not true

[grand topaz]

the original claim was "literally no one"

Lots of people on Twitch I talk to say 7+X was more fun

[hybrid depot]

yes, and i saw on twitch both "thank god 7+x is gone" and "when tf is 7+x coming back"

it is not one-sided

[hybrid depot]

yes, it is definitely not no one, but it is not everyone either

[grand topaz]

Obviously it's not going to be everyone, some people enjoy the whole "sdpc or bust"

[open lion]

but at the same time thats not all it is

[eternal merlin]

I’ve heard openers are less effective the higher rank you are, they just become a way into midgame. Tho I know a few people in X who opener main and still get rounds in 5-8 seconds so idk how true that is

I can’t really confirm this since I’m not X but it’s what I’ve been told

[grand topaz]

I'm not X and minomuncher estimates me to 24.4k so I'm not even near

[eternal merlin]

I mean I know for a fact it’s a skill issue on my part and that’s why i struggle so much against it. But the concept of losing to someone just using garbage is frustrating af

[grand topaz]

isn't garbage more difficult to use than openers?

[eternal merlin]

I mean not really?

If it’s messy sure

[grand topaz]

Maybe I really do need to work on my "don't use an opener or anything really" opener

[eternal merlin]

But if it’s clean it’s legit just free attack

It’s giving you a free Tetris, you don’t even have to stack for it

[grand topaz]

Sometimes you tank and get bad rng

[eternal merlin]

Again I know it’s a skill issue on my part it’s a valid playstyle I just suck against it and think it’s boring, like you with openers

[open lion]

I mean tho if ur whole argument is openers are too rewarding or easy to use most of the time if you’re good enough at stacking or whatever it pays off more than openers(maybe)

[rare sequoia]

It's not opener mains on one side and 7+x lovers on the other, I myself am not an opener main but would still like to keep things close to as they are now because I think openers are cool and add variety to the game. 7+x basically completely removes them while also disrupting the base game as well. Some people want a solution that isn't 7+x too, at least as it is now as evidenced by the many other threads proposing solutions

[open lion]

But also people also like making openers so it takes that away to

[quick sapphire]

#1225191549881810965 message I was both as biased and unbiased as I could possibly be. I can't really say more than that.

At the very least we need another test.

[open lion]

prob maybe everyone was biased

[quick sapphire]

We've all got an opinion on 7+X. There will always be those that love it and those that hate it.

I know multiple people that will drop like wildfire if 7 bag was removed. They are opener or die kinda players.

[pseudo heron]

remember:

• the problem in the lower ranks isn't openers. it's kill-openers
• openers are good. they open the game by quickly starting the garbage ping-pong. kill-openers are used to end the game as quickly as possible
• one of the most important points raised in the whole discussion: for lower-ranked players, learning a kill-opener is far easier and far faster than learning midgame and proper counters

[open lion]

Pretty sure there’s no way of removing kill openers without removing normal ones

Or we’ll just learn more openers

So we have more options for openers

But idk if 7x would do that with a que like

[pseudo heron]

personally, I suggest making 7+X "nicer" - instead of doing 3/2/1/1, it could do 1/2/2/1/1 or maybe even 0/2/2/2/1

it's definitely something that would require a good deal of tweaking to get right

[winged tartan]

i think the first thing that should be removed is from the extra bag, so it can either impact one less bag or the first bag less

[hybrid depot]

i do actually quite like this idea

maybe 0/2/2/1/1 and remove t from the junk bag

[rare sequoia]

yeah definetely not +1 to start with cuz just dpc, unless the pc chances tank with extra pieces

i like the idea of smaller divisions for 7+x and would also prefer that if its ever going to be implemented

[thin grail]

practicing kill opener is way easier than midgame when solo

i don't think any low rank even practice midgame (or know what it is for that matter)

their strategies are basically non existent

[grand topaz]

Who needs midgame if the only ranks who can somewhat reliably survive kill openers are U rank (top 5%)

That just means openers are The game

[quick sapphire]

There is a lot of different ways it can be changed and I'd like to hope o sk would be willing to test some

[brazen pawn]

What is spdc then

[eternal merlin]

?

[brazen pawn]

This

[eternal merlin]

probably a setup to make sdpc into 4w after

[open lion]

just sdpc and then make a c4w after

[sharp condor]

Because he typed spdc not sdpc

lol

Maybe a silly joke

[open lion]

too confussssssssssssssssssssse

[queen barn]

single perfect disconnect

[spiral vessel]

15k messages is crazy

[zinc cave]

lol

[dire zenith]

how many messages actually have to do with 7+x

[open lion]

prob less than half

[grand topaz]

it's probably mostly about "7+X is nice because no copener"

[cloud mesa]

imagine 7+X bag being on weekends like connected vs in te:c

[grand topaz]

every day n*11 + the index of the current month

[rare sequoia]

You were here, you know that's not what the majority of messages were saying

[grand topaz]

part of it was also "but i like copener"

[rare sequoia]

[mystic yoke]

probably half the messages are about finding a middle nerf

[rare sequoia]

a bit more accurate yeah

[grand topaz]

maybe char-sys damage level-up system will solve it

[rare sequoia]

ngl I would be interested in trying a more spread out 7+x that starts with +2

[grand topaz]

2+2+2+1 pls

[rare sequoia]

perhaps, there's a lot of different possible solutions

[mystic yoke]

i wish osk had several prepared tests in one go

[rare sequoia]

but only one test day

[mystic yoke]

so that a compare and contrast would be much clearer

[rare sequoia]

yeah

[rare sequoia]

Or +2+2+2 with no extra T

[grand topaz]

i dunno why we want to eliminate the extra t

it's just a piece from a bag

[rare sequoia]

Parity

[grand topaz]

it's... already fixed once you get to piece 35

[rare sequoia]

Is it?

[grand topaz]

it should be

i mean it's the same 7-bag

just split across the first 4 bags

so at piece 35 it should even out

[rare sequoia]

I'm not the main one advocating for it I've just seen it being brought up a lot with a majority agreeing it should be removed

[grand topaz]

i don't think i understand parity well enough to actually know what i'm agree/disagreeing with on this one

[open lion]

y we only get1 test only in tl for 1 day

[grand topaz]

shoulda been an entire week

[mystic yoke]

of assorted tests*

[grand topaz]

so that people who say "we won't be playing while 7+X is active" would have been playing anyway once they got bored of not playing

[open lion]

[mystic yoke]

this was pretty pathetic really

[open lion]

idk why i played during that period of time but i gained tr or smth maybe

[rare sequoia]

maybe it would've been better if there was more warning beforehand

"a week from now 7+x will be tested in TL" type thing, would give people time to prepare and not be panicking so much

[open lion]

/could've made it so there was no tr gain or loss

but may have made less ppl play

or more

[rare sequoia]

yeah that too maybe

but then it also isn't really different from public rooms, removes the feel of a normal TL game of fighting for something, and also makes it impossible to play actual TL

[hybrid depot]

it's just so that the pieces are nicer to stack with

[grand topaz]

they are? i never noticed a difference

then again i also play total mayhem sometimes

with varying degrees of success

what was the consensus on that PC damage stays the same, but it sends yourself +2 lines of cheese?

though i guess that doesn't help against extended-sdpc/stick

[rare sequoia]

Not a consensus but imo that doesn't fix the main problem of them being too op in the lowest ranks

10 lines is instant death at that level

[grand topaz]

people really need to start downstacking a bit more

[rare sequoia]

In B?

[grand topaz]

then again people with reasonably decent downstack are at least S-

[mystic yoke]

people through U rank suck at DS

[grand topaz]

honestly it's funny how fast some people collapse once you get a bit of cheese below their opener

the tricky part is getting it through there when they are faster than the garbage travel speed

[torpid acorn]

its almost as if openers are beatable and there isn't really a problem here

[grand topaz]

if you deliberately ignore that the goal is to not have "the opener phase" be the game from D rank to high U, then yes, but otherwise actually no

by the time "the opener is beatable" you're probably 24850+

who the heck spends 3+ years and 1500+ hours in a game just so they get to enjoy "not dying in 6 seconds"

[torpid acorn]

it's really not that consistent of a thing in the first place

sure, it happens sometimes

but if I was getting crushed by speedy openers every game I wouldn't be maintaining any given rank

[thin grail]

finally a sound argument

[grand topaz]

it happens in way too many games and makes a lot of people quit

[torpid acorn]

you're kidding right

like i said, you're exaggerating and over-dramatizing the "problem"

[bronze crest]

Or the only option of playing being:

• either 100% defense (by plonking and infinite downstacking),
• or countering the opener by doing the exact same opener.

[grand topaz]

or countering the opener by doing the exact same opener.
yup, that's how i've been living against stickspin and even-more-specifically extended-sdpc-spin these days

just execute same opener at same time to guard

which is kinda silly

[signal crypt]

you have not looked at the other option

[bronze crest]

I personally do the "100% defense" one

Works for most openers, but Extended Stickspin - that one always catches me off-guard

[sharp condor]

false dichotomy

tetr.io is not this black and white lol

[pseudo heron]

it's far easier to learn kill-openers than it is to get good at midgame and learn counters to kill-openers; in other words, the best way to deal with kill-openers is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

learning proper counters is easier on paper, but it requires a heightened awareness of the game that simply isn't present in approximately SS and below

therefore, the easiest and most effective way to survive is to use another kill-opener

[mystic yoke]

there's also (having better freestyle than the opponent has attack)

[quick sapphire]

This tbh.

[quick sapphire]

I gained around 700 TR. Only lost one match in 7+X I think.

[grand topaz]

honestly there was an argument up there that kinda convinced me

that maybe 7+X really isn't the answer

[open lion]

[grand topaz]

namely that "what other kill strat will be considered overpowered after"

[rare sequoia]

yeah I agree with cad, other solutions should at least be considered along with even slight alterations to 7+x before something is actually implemented

[quick sapphire]

I can't see anything being considered at this point.

Lets be honest if there was gonna be a new bag change test we'd have had some form of update by now.

Considering the disgusting threats n other horrible things people have said in response to the 7+X test I dont think there will ever be a change from 7 bag.

[grand topaz]

i think the game would be more accessible by default but so it is

it's the legacy of "modern"

i wanna play tetrinet again someday

[rare sequoia]

Meh, osk has a lot on his plate and it's a large decision, this could also take a lot of time

If not then I'm sure at least some balancing will come somewhere down the line, even if it's just a PC nerf. I'm also a little biased but I don't mind how it is now too much

[fossil charm]

this in general is how we want to start approaching TL

i dont think having the rules stay the same for years is good for the game if that makes sense

you gotta shake things up occasionally so people learn new things

you want players to learn how to play the game, not learn how to break the game

[rare sequoia]

Good to know and also a bit exciting, I think it's the right approach. I do hope you don't rush into big changes and put a good amount of thought into them (like with 7+x and other proposed solutions) but I'm sure you know what you're doing

[sharp condor]

I don’t agree with this, and tetrio isn’t even close to being played to perfection yet

I would get it if every match at the top level was the same stale game but that’s just not the case right now

If you want to nerf openers because it’s a negative gameplay experience then that’s reasonable to me

But change for the sake of change is silly to me

Like there’s so many Tetris veterans who have been playing for 10 years or whatever became Tetris is the type of game you can play for a long long time without getting bored

I think innovation is cool and is part of why tetrio is so successful with the more rewarding attack table and stuff

And the community largely welcomed the no passthrough changes because it didnt fuck with the game we’re here to play

Like there were downsides to ZPT too but there were clear upsides that most people believed were worth it or something probably

But with 7+x I do not believe that the pros are worth the cons we talked about before

Again, I welcome opener nerfs if it’s necessary to balance the game but I wish a solution can be found that doesn’t screw with the main gameplay experience

[rare sequoia]

oh I wouldn't wanna see tetrio become gimmick of the week but I do think some change could be nice since things are pretty unfriendly to the beginner experience as it is now, as long as the core experience is the same

[grand topaz]

I would get it if every match at the top level was the same stale game but that’s just not the case right now
i don't know if doremy would agree or disagree with this

[quick sapphire]

"tetrio isn’t even close to being played to perfection yet "

At what point is tetrio played to perfection? Is it really gonna take a specific playstyle or opener discovered before we class tetrio as perfected?

"Tetris is the type of game you can play for a long long time without getting bored. "

That's an opinion. Not a fact. It's just as easy for people to get burned out from playing tetris than any other genre of game.

"But change for the sake of change is silly to me "

no disrespect Cookie ( Honestly ) but I don't agree with this either. Shaking the game up for the sake of change helps keep things fresh and can sometimes tempt people to return to try the new changes and maybe learn a different way to play the game.

Having the game stay one way for life is how games typically become stale.

"with 7+x I do not believe that the pros are worth the cons we talked about before."

When you say before, what are you refering to? a recent discussion or the thread as a whole?

@rare sequoia

"I wouldn't wanna see tetrio become gimmick of the week but I do think some change could be nice "

I doubt osk would change the game to such a degree it would be refered to as "gimmick of the week".

[rare sequoia]

It was a figure of speech, but I definitely think too much change can be just as bad as you think no change can be, that's pretty much all I was saying. I disagree with your point about shaking up the game just to shake it up, imo there should be a good reason other than "meh I'm bored of the way it is lemme just change the bag or add all spins or whatever". If the change isn't too frequent and not too disruptive to the core of the game and serves a good purpose I don't have much of a problem with it, but changing a game is a big thing and can turn people away from a game just as much as it brings people in.

Sometimes people play a game because of how it is, sometimes people would play a game if it was different, it's hard to make everyone happy

[quick sapphire]

Yes too much change is as bad as no change. But that doesn't mean tetrio as of right now doesn't have faults or ways in which it could be improved.

osk wouldn't change the core gameplay because "meh I'm bored of the way it is", Sorry but that's just ridiculous.

I'm not saying the game should be changed daily, weekly or monthly. I'm just pointing out carefully thought out and discussed changes to add a bit of variety to the game can be a net positive for everyone.

And lets be real. It is completely stupid and impossible to believe osk can please everyone. There will always be people that welcome a change and people that hate it.

It's a lose-lose situation. overall osk needs to do what's best for the game. Sometimes that costs a certain number of players, sometimes it gains them.

[rare sequoia]

That's pretty much what I was saying then, the part about boredom being motivation for change was hyperbole to refute your argument that change just to change the game is a purely good thing

[grand topaz]

IMO an in-game tutorial that explains t-spins would be very nice addition because a lot of people don't even realize they can make a quad

let alone TST or overhangless S spin

[chilly robin]

no

they're not

[torpid acorn]

Yes, they are

[chilly robin]

no

they aren't

[torpid acorn]

Yes, they are. If I can deal with it, so can they

Don't play that game

[chilly robin]

this is a terrible philosophy

i dont think im allowed to sue a political analogy, but jsut because you have tod eal with them doesn't make it balance or fine

the amount of games ill lose to someone who can jsut 4pps opener loop me is insane

[torpid acorn]

The fact that it can be dealt with i.e. there are counters and defenses tells me that this issue is in fact being exaggerated to enhance the arguer's position

Like I said, I fight against opener mains just as much as you do. There are ways forward

frankly if someone can "4pps" an opener (Numbers I rarely see here at SS if ever), by all accounts they've earned their place at a rank that's higher than mine

[chilly robin]

i am also ss

i'll encounter one of these people per session

often multiple times

[torpid acorn]

I've seen "4pps" maybe one or two times in the last month

and I had no problem accepting they deserved the win

[chilly robin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

its not deserved but deserved is subjective

problem with openers is you literally dont egt

to play the game

[torpid acorn]

I disagree

if I was able to come anywhere near their mechanical performance I would have been able to counter them

[chilly robin]

yeah

[torpid acorn]

since my performance was lower than theirs

[chilly robin]

if you sat inz en and practiced openers for hours

[torpid acorn]

in my view their win was deserved and legitimate

[chilly robin]

you would

[torpid acorn]

after all the whole point of ranked is to see how your performance stacks up to someone elses (everyone else's)

I find it unlikely that those few people I did see achieving that level of performance didn't continue on to reach U

[chilly robin]

(they dont)

[torpid acorn]

Citation Needed

And frankly, if they dont, then someone found a hole in their opener/their performance

which again, means the outcome was deserved

[chilly robin]

this guy

for example

when they dont win in opener they lsoe in midgame

100% of the time

if they misdrop you survive

if you mess up, you survive

[torpid acorn]

Key words.

[chilly robin]

if they dont't theres no coutnerplay

[torpid acorn]

"when they don't win in opener"

[chilly robin]

they can loop so fast that my 2.5pps tki isn't fast enough to stop it

[torpid acorn]

well thats just proof they don't always win

again, i dont see the problem

if this meta was broken, those people would be dominating the circuit

I do think there are issues, but those issues are solvable by balance changes that dont require a total meta shift

[chilly robin]

if you dont see the problem with half of the game in lower ranks being
a) entirely out of my hands
and
b) being almost entirely identical, boring and to a degree, incredibly frustrating

then idk what to tell you

[torpid acorn]

by completely changing the rules of the game

rules that many players are used to from every stacker clone out there

changing the bag system does more than simply mess with openers

[chilly robin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

whats your suggestion for dealing with openers

[torpid acorn]

get good?

as ive reiterated many times above

if there is an issue, it could be solved by nerfing perfect clears, which largely happen in openers and contribute to how good they are

[chilly robin]

insane

thanks

[torpid acorn]

opinions are not facts

If I can do it, you should be able to

[chilly robin]

i asked for a suggestion

asking every person to get good vs openers is like asking everyone to just play like an x rank

if they can do it

why can't you

[torpid acorn]

Well, to me, it seems like a skill issue

[chilly robin]

yeah well

the fact that you aren't x is aslo a skill issue

right?

[torpid acorn]

and I'm not X and don't play as good as an X so I'm unlikely to be in the future

So yes, it is a skill issue

[chilly robin]

great

[torpid acorn]

we must recognize and acknowledge our own faults and failiures

which seems like something you need to do

based on your responses

I never claimed to be perfect

if I was, I'd win the championship

[chilly robin]

no i know that i suck

i jsut dont think the expectation that everyone should be able to beats openers is absurd

[torpid acorn]

Well you should be able to because it can be done

and you don't have to match their PPS to do it

[chilly robin]

i would never expect a c rank to be able to like sdpcspin without using it themselves

live not like

[torpid acorn]

and that's my main issue

the core argument here is "the only way to beat an opener main is to do their opener faster"

which simply isn't true

Many arguements have been presented above, not just by me, as to how openers can be coped with

and the reality is if you survive the opener and your midgame is better, well, you'll probably win

[chilly robin]

i mean

no

[torpid acorn]

It has been said many times in various forms

[chilly robin]

but for any rank below

like

what

s rank? ss?

yeah, it is

even in ss ranks the solution to getting looped is opener yourself

[torpid acorn]

Again, I don't see the issue. If these low tier opener mains are beating the crap out of people at their rank

they'll rise up until that doesnt happen anymore

system is working as intended

[chilly robin]

this is great and all

except for the fact this just inaccurately ranks people

[torpid acorn]

how are they inaccurately ranked?

their strategy will carry them to a certain point and won't carry them further

[chilly robin]

because they literally have only one thing
i.e opener fast

[torpid acorn]

that tells me they're ranked correctly

[chilly robin]

they have the midgame of a b rank and they aren't an

lets say

ss ranked player

[torpid acorn]

my win rate is 50.7%

ive been spinning my wheels for some time now

I'm where I should be

[chilly robin]

mine is 53.92

i dont know what your point on winrate is

[torpid acorn]

if you're close to 50% you're essentially where you belong

As you get higher, win rate does bias upwards because it's harder to find equally matched opponents

which is the system working as it should

regardless of what strategy you employ, this will hold true

the only potentially valid argument some could make is "it isn't fun to play against"

but fun is subjective

[torpid acorn]

I agree with this statement, but I think the change being floated in this thread is too dramatic

and minor tuning is a better idea

The rules should also be the same across the game

so if the standard were to become 7+x

then it needs to be 7+x everywhere

But incase it isnt completely obvious by this point, I'm against unilaterally removing XYZ strategies just because some people don't like them

[grand topaz]

"too dramatic" it slightly alters the order of pieces for the first 35 piece

[torpid acorn]

which does a lot more than you're willing to admit

and i'd argue it's a lot more than just a little changeup

it affects the entire game, not just the first few pieces you drop

[grand topaz]

any change that affects the game affects the game, it sounds like a potentially intended change if applied

significant changeup imo would be if they alter the width of the board

[neat saffron]

hummingbird nest iris 11-wide tournament

[pseudo heron]

saying the quiet part out loud here

7+X, at least temporarily, made TETR.IO more unique than other guideline-style stackers

"TETR.IO shouldn't set itself apart from the others in terms of mechanics" isn't the argument that you think it is

[torpid acorn]

Thats the thing I don't see this as a good thing

[pseudo heron]

the typical guideline formula of "5-ish previews, hold, SRS or SRS-like, move/rotation reset on pieces, 7-bag randomizer, T-Spins, that particular type of garbage rows" has been done to death, no? surely a little bit of extra uniqueness, when properly balanced, can't hurt

[torpid acorn]

the game is distinct in its own ways

saying we need to do this just to make the game "more unique" is not a strong argument

and distracts from the real issues

[pseudo heron]

I'm specifically addressing your point of not liking that it's different

[torpid acorn]

and osk has had a thing in th e works, since like forever

to help make his game more unique

hey ZaptorZap when's character mode coming out

.>

[pseudo heron]

the whole reason you're bringing this up seems to be "it's different, so it's bad"

[torpid acorn]

thats not it at all

[pseudo heron]

then why bring it up at all???

[torpid acorn]

but different isant automatically good either

[pseudo heron]

also, this is a huge mischaracterization of the well-developed points that were brought up earlier

[torpid acorn]

im not the one who brought that up in the first palce lol

[pseudo heron]

the problem isn't "the only way to beat an opener main is to do their opener faster"

the problem is that in the lower ranks (about SS and below), the easiest and fastest way to beat kill-opener mains is by learning kill-openers

learning the proper counters is far harder because doing so requires a much greater awareness of what's happening

[torpid acorn]

harder != impossible

[grand topaz]

the core argument here is "the only way to beat an opener main is to do their opener faster"
which simply isn't true
it is effectively the counter to extended-sdpc done with 3.2+ pps

[torpid acorn]

if you learn things you will do better

[grand topaz]

at your rank you get away with doing other things, probably

[pseudo heron]

but the point is that in the lower ranks, learning the proper counters is a lot less effective than learning kill-openers when your goal is to defeat a kill-opener

[grand topaz]

just stickspin faster

[signal crypt]

the issue is opener killing lower ranks making the game cheesy at that skill level

[torpid acorn]

so we should change the entire game because a certain rank range has issues

[grand topaz]

the "certain rank range" is literally 70% of players

[torpid acorn]

issues I proposed a solution for

[pseudo heron]

"because a certain rank range has issues"

you mean, like... 90% of the players?

[grand topaz]

wasn't your solution "learn to opener better so you don't die? here's a link to four.lol"

[torpid acorn]

no

i have proposed balance changes

[pseudo heron]

a certain rank range seems to have issues with 7+X, so does that mean we should keep the regular 7-bag? that rank range is only about 5% of the player base

[torpid acorn]

balance changes that largely impact openers

without just deleting tactics you dont like from the game

[grand topaz]

lol i'm in U rank and not voting to keep 7-bag

[pseudo heron]

hence "rank range"

[grand topaz]

fair

[grand topaz]

if you know enough t-spins you can make them even with 7+X

they're there

[torpid acorn]

its far less reliable

[pseudo heron]

my problem with 7+X is that it makes openers (not kill-openers) much less consistent

[torpid acorn]

also hteres that 2 line perfect clear that isnt normally possible so a new PC was added lol

[pseudo heron]

even an opener that runs for two bags is super inconsistent in 7+X

and it's important to differentiate between openers and kill-openers

[grand topaz]

what if chatgpt is right and we need a 7-1 bag where it keeps 6 pieces and removes 1 at random

[torpid acorn]

a distinction few are making

[pseudo heron]

openers are meant to open the game by getting the momentum going

[signal crypt]

so then everyone learns 6th pc

[torpid acorn]

but you can't do those either

with this bag

[pseudo heron]

kill-openers are meant to close the game by ending it ASAP, so the victim has no chance to enjoy it

[grand topaz]

nothing like dying in 6 seconds

very started game

[torpid acorn]

who are you to dictate how long games should last

[grand topaz]

SDPC/DPC me more daddy

[chilly robin]

bro

i leave for like

20 mins

wtf

[pseudo heron]

there is no momentum when one player is topped out after 7 seconds or so

kinda ruins the fun for new players

[chilly robin]

who are you to dictate it either tho chief

[chilly robin]

rank range in question being almost a majority of the playerbase

in fact im p sure it IS a majority

[torpid acorn]

I'm not

[grand topaz]

but.. you actually are

[torpid acorn]

but im actuall ynot

[chilly robin]

but you are

[torpid acorn]

then to no greater or lesser extent than you are

[pseudo heron]

the overwhelming majority, considering that everything below SS is 89% of the player base or something like that

[grand topaz]

potentially kill openers are less of a problem in C+ and below

[chilly robin]

idk chief

[grand topaz]

altho i can check

[chilly robin]

i've seen some opener mains in c

its jsut

less of sdpc dpc and more of i can dt into followup quick enough

12 lines is like a death sentence down there

[signal crypt]

any line send is death sentence there

[chilly robin]

thats true

[pseudo heron]

C rank is barely beyond the "whoever tops themselves out last is the winner" section of ranks

[torpid acorn]

ive proposed reducing this

[pseudo heron]

and some of those C ranks pump out T-Spin after T-Spin via openers without knowing what in the world is going on

[chilly robin]

reducing line count in early game doesn't solve the problem

[torpid acorn]

except it does

[chilly robin]

because it means my cancel is also less efefctive

[torpid acorn]

because it increases the oppertunity to get to mid game

[chilly robin]

and it promotes looping fast enough to get past this problem

[torpid acorn]

which seems to be what everyone wants

[grand topaz]

i guess PRACTICALLY this is not a "kill opener"

[signal crypt]

and also it turns the game into ds cycle until the opener phase is gone

[torpid acorn]

frankly if you can get away with a loop like that I think the opponent is doing something seriously wrong

that isn't something that takes a few seconds to execute

[chilly robin]

nooooo!!! i WANT to my tetris experience to be 7 seconds each round where its me getting openered with my only hope of victory being that they misdrop!! thats peak ENJOYABILITY!!

[grand topaz]

peak gaming

[chilly robin]

???

[pseudo heron]

for reduced attacks in the beginning, I'm pretty sure whether some complaints are warranted depends entirely on how long the attack nerf should last

[grand topaz]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/763146093655359488/1251352270113738762/profile.png?ex=666e441e&is=666cf29e&hm=0fca5b7cee249beb5368d07286afe31126c83367622c08bb55eb3ab236de95b9&

[chilly robin]

do reduced attacks not mean its also harder to cancel

basically changing... effectively nothing

[pseudo heron]

harder to cancel, but there's less need to cancel because... you receive less attack

[signal crypt]

pulling ranks out to try and invalidate arguments

time to watch with the popcorn

[grand topaz]

you need to match 3.5 pps stickspin with 3.5 pps "relevant opener that can counter it"

including stickspin

countering stick with stick is very funny

[chilly robin]

isn't it jsut

stalling

[grand topaz]

not in 24.2k+

[pseudo heron]

I wouldn't mind trying out a system with an attack nerf at the beginning; if you receive 9 lines instead of 18 lines (I pulled these numbers out of thin air), there's a lot less of a problem

[grand topaz]

they don't just stop they actually follow-up

[pseudo heron]

nah nah, you just need enough attack to Comfortably Not Die

[chilly robin]

how much attack

is like

sdpc

[golden drum]

13

[signal crypt]

27 assuming best case scenario

[chilly robin]

cause ms2 into dpc is like 36

[chilly robin]

including the dpc right after

[pseudo heron]

SDPC is at least 17 I think

[grand topaz]

actual peak gaming

[winged tartan]

as if i know

[signal crypt]

49

[chilly robin]

you missed the perfect opportunity zap

[golden drum]

Actually not even 13

[winged tartan]

yeah but they asked me

[chilly robin]

zap whats your take on 7+x

[winged tartan]

[golden drum]

I can survive a 3.5 pps stick with just one tst at 2.3ish pps to send 2 lines of cheese to the stickspin

[winged tartan]

i don't really feel like arguing right now but them's the reaction

[torpid acorn]

"That's the joke"

[grand topaz]

ok that is interesting

[golden drum]

Although

I am like

Plonk 100

So dont take my word for it

[chilly robin]

was j interested

[torpid acorn]

thats entirely valid

[golden drum]

For me, I like having openers so people actually send clean lol

[chilly robin]

meh

[golden drum]

But I know that people can't manage some openers like sdpc extention

[chilly robin]

usually the kill opener is never the problem

one cspin only sends 10 and sdpcspin is like 18

its the followup afterwards into a loop

or extended

extended is effectively a death senetcne

slwoer player loses

[golden drum]

Not always

[pseudo heron]

this is actually a big deal - the current 7+X killed that, so players fumbled around for a good while before sending clean garbage

[torpid acorn]

but 7x doesnt prevent looping

[grand topaz]

gotta extended back at same speed

that's how i beat psylaris once

[chilly robin]

am i missing something

[grand topaz]

but psylaris was washed

[chilly robin]

7+x runs 7 bag plus extra pieces in a seperate 7 bag

doesn't this jsut

prevent you building the loop in the first place

[winged tartan]

ostensibly if you PC at any point you can still do the whole loop, given you recognize what bag you're on (check piece count)

in practice people aren't exactly doing pure PC loops lol

[chilly robin]

pure pc loops is like

1st pc 2nd pc dpc

[winged tartan]

no it's not

[chilly robin]

i forgot the question mark LOL

[winged tartan]

i'm referring to https://four.lol/perfect-clears/general

i'm not saying i'm worried about people actually doing that, but it is "looping in 7+X"

E.G. it wouldn't change blitz that much besides setting it back a couple hundred thousand points lol (and also annoying the shit out of anyone who grinds it)

[chilly robin]

do people actually use first through seventh in tl as far as you know zaptor

[pseudo heron]

just speculating here - by the time people figure out how to "PC loop" in 7+X, they'll already be at a rating where it doesn't matter

thinking X rank

[winged tartan]

firestorm probably has lol

[torpid acorn]

👀

[winged tartan]

besides that i don't think i've seen anyone else do it

also afaik firestorm kinda just wings it with their godlike bag sense, they don't strictly follow the formula

[signal crypt]

thats dpc

pure pc looping is 7 pc loop

[chilly robin]

actual insanity

[chilly robin]

so
if i match firestorm i can call them an opener main pc looper in 7+x

nice to know

truly the peak of 7+x opener maining

[signal crypt]

7+x probably messes with a lot of parity since you dont know how many LJT there are

and also SZ

[chilly robin]

isn't parity fixed by 35 pieces

[signal crypt]

maybe? but not knowing what piece it is on the +3 pieces and +2 pieces could mess up your solves

[open lion]

Ask cad about this or idk

[golden drum]

At least for me, I just need to be aware of where the garbage I send goes on the opponents board so I can react to a potential bigger spike, since I usually always have something prepared to tank and counter

[chilly robin]

i mean

yeah boardwatching for the column where your sends go works

but this also means you're

sending into extended

[golden drum]

Mostly canceling

I send tsts for bag 2 and 3 so they get cheese

[chilly robin]

how are you sending tsts every bag

[golden drum]

Then bag 4 I just tank their tsd to counter their extended

Not every bag, just bag 2 and 3

I'm using an opener I made myself with my friends

I feel like it's more of a plonk opener

[chilly robin]

and it all comes back to opener vs opener

😔

[golden drum]

It's 3 bags

It's also not a kill opener

[open lion]

the silly one?

[golden drum]

Ya sillyspin

It technically is a 5 bag loop opener but that happens rarely so I mainly just use it to get the double tst's to launch myself into midgame spiking

[spring minnow]

ye 👍

[primal gale]

washed? I literally wasn't trying

if I wanted to I could've used opener the whole set but I didn't use it until like 0-5 or whatever

(for the record it was an intentional playstyle decision)

[grand topaz]

sounds like an alternate definition of washed but it's open to interpretation

[cinder vapor]

Washed would be more "not at peak performance." Like if one was a bit rusty or beyond their prime.

[grand topaz]

That sounds like it applies

[thin grail]

i want to reiterate again that saying

You should just spend 1000 hours getting good at living past 15 seconds

to 70% of players is

NOT

an effective option

you also unironically said 7+X changes the entire game

[torpid acorn]

people should always be trying to get good lol

thats what competitive modes are for

[thin grail]

the reality is people DON'T try to get good

opener mains don't try to get good, they try to get a win and the adrenaline rush

[torpid acorn]

if i didnt care about getting good id be playing qp or private games all the time

[thin grail]

which is what people are doing

[open lion]

wdym I thought those help u improve still

[torpid acorn]

well tis not to say that you dont

its just not a priority

i simply dont think a dramatic rule change is a good solution to a problem that, as I see it, b asically solves itself

[thin grail]

by your argument if you dont like 7+x you can just play custom rooms all the time and you will not be affected

simple

[torpid acorn]

you can smooth out the bumps in the road with some balance adjustments

and I think taht's all thats needed

if anything

theres a bit of irony in you having put "skill issue" in your nick as well lol

[open lion]

Unless people decide to learn how to counter them(may not 100% work) they’re gonna opener back or just complain maybe

But learning openers are probably also just more interesting and are also easier

[torpid acorn]

i think the real question that needs answering, but is rather difficult to prove, is whether or not this "problem" is keeping the game from growing

[thin grail]

would you care to wait and see

[torpid acorn]

because it seems like thats a background argument being made here because the focus on these criticisms is that it affects lower ranks

the most

although I contend that when people discover openers and crush noobs, they rank up to a certain point and again, that problem solves itself

[thin grail]

the problem solves itself, for you because you've already gotten to a higher level

[torpid acorn]

I would rather be convinced that is the case before such a thing that i presently oppose would be implemented

and its hardly just me that opposes this

as indicated by the reactions

im just one of a few speaking for that side

[thin grail]

personally i don't know enough about how 7+X affects high level gameplay so I'm not qualified to talk about it

[torpid acorn]

If you really want to eliminate strategies based on patterns, then you need full random peice generation

[spiral vessel]

from what i've heard and from my own experience, its just really boring

[torpid acorn]

7x is not enough to do that

[spiral vessel]

basically a skimfest until 7+x is over

so that you can actually start sending

[torpid acorn]

7+x just says you cant use a fancy tactic until you drop 35 peices

[open lion]

But this convo really isn’t about high level gameplay

[thin grail]

yes, which is what I'm getting at

[torpid acorn]

which is a really artificial way of making the game longer.

and really it just means that ppl are going to get through the more random part of the game and then segue into a reliable tactic

so in my view it only reliably lengthens the game by however long it takes you to drop the first four bags

[grand topaz]

even opener-mains who don't learn how to send attacks beyond an opener get burned out from playing TL because they think executing the opener will "give them the win" that "they deserve" and thus the entire interaction with the game becomes toxic

[torpid acorn]

and then you're more or less back to the same problem

[thin grail]

again you're talking about high level gameplay here

[torpid acorn]

not really

[thin grail]

the first bags are where low ranks will not do great at

[spiral vessel]

well the point of 7+x is that you dont get to opener

[grand topaz]

i dunno man i could make TST tower opener in 7+X if i wanted to

i don't need a recipe book to do it

[torpid acorn]

I'm also not really sure how much I want longer games

[grand topaz]

6 seconds games are stupid

fr

[torpid acorn]

particularly when you get to S- and later U where you play more rounds

[thin grail]

at your level 7+x is merely an inconvenience, not so at lower ranks

[torpid acorn]

so if they really want to make games longer

then id say get rid of FT7 at least

[thin grail]

like if low rank dont have an opener they'll quite literally DIE from their own stacking

[grand topaz]

you're not U rank, why are you afraid of FT7 🤔

U ranks have enough innate APM that it is not as much a problem

[torpid acorn]

Again though: The person who does this will rank up and the person who doesnt will stay where they are

[grand topaz]

most games end in at most 90-120 seconds

[torpid acorn]

it is the ranking system working as intended

[open lion]

The whole convo is discriminating against high level players

[torpid acorn]

you will reach equalibrium with a group of players you will beat around 50% of the time

[thin grail]

repeating my other argument that enforcing a certain playstyle is boring

[grand topaz]

and currently, opener is the enforced playstyle

[torpid acorn]

How does 7+x not enforce a playstyle of its own?

it is literally a rule that says "you can't use these tactics because we dont like them"

which means you have to come up with something else

[grand topaz]

(which if you are the creator of the game makes perfect sense that you can decide on)

[torpid acorn]

But you aren't the creator of the game nor am I

this is just a solicitation of feedback

[thin grail]

which is a bad thing?

[grand topaz]

did you see osk's comments about 6 weeks ago

on this subject in this thread

[torpid acorn]

No- but it isn't any better either

[thin grail]

i dont see how failing to come up with a different style makes you a better player

[torpid acorn]

it will just replace one kind of win button with another

People WILL find things they can use

As there are still only so many ways those extra pieces can sort in

[grand topaz]

as long as it's not as simple as reading "place your first 32 pieces here for a free win", that's technically ok

[thin grail]

The problem was never about players finding loopholes

because let's face it that will always happen no matter what

[grand topaz]

the problem is that the game encourages repetition over finding patterns

openers are too stable

[thin grail]

it's about having a disproportionate emphasis on a - yeah that

[grand topaz]

which is why people go from 4 pps to 1.7 pps

[torpid acorn]

Im just not sure why openers are bad but other loops are okay

[grand topaz]

what other loop can you do in 7+X ?

[open lion]

Okay I’m at least maybe pretty sure this doesn’t happen

[thin grail]

never said other loops

[torpid acorn]

You can do anything once you get through 4 bags

[grand topaz]

maybe not in 24.8k but there are people like that in 23.9k

[torpid acorn]

other than PC openers

Which, as I've said, could be nerfed

[grand topaz]

so you gotta match it with ~4 pps TKI

[chilly robin]

it hasn't

ftr

they're still in ss

[grand topaz]

and then you force them to play the game at their real pace... which is 1.7

[thin grail]

well it did go from 2pps sdpc dpc loop to 1.1 pps after 5th bag md in one of my matches

fucking dpc loops though everyone seems to be using the exact same loop

which is also what zhun said

repetition

[grand topaz]

for the pro-opener people's argument being "opener creates variety" it's oddly the same thing in every game ? ? ?

if EARLY O then COUNTER SDPC again and again lmao

sometimes it's stick.

[chilly robin]

who says openers create variety

what

[grand topaz]

it was in this thread

a while ago

[chilly robin]

???

openers are like

the opposite of variety

[mystic yoke]

come to #1234943910430773289 message

[grand topaz]

they said S+/SS people wouldn't have anything beyond inf-ds if openers didn't exist

[chilly robin]

same shit every game

[mystic yoke]

openers are pretty old news now, rehash in the thread for it

[grand topaz]

ok but "if it wasn't for SDPC-spin, everyone would just always 6-3 or c4w or side-4-wide"

^-- the pro-opener-main argument

[chilly robin]

well i mean

whats wrong with inf dsing

[grand topaz]

opener mains don't want to play against another person they just wanna win in 10 seconds

so obviously being forced into a game with another person is seen as "making the game unplayable"

[open lion]

[chilly robin]

"man if openers weren't a thing, i'd have to play the game!!!"

[grand topaz]

^--- the actual opener-main argument

the unsaid part is that opener-mains argue that the goal of the game is to blitz as fast as possible so the other side can do nothing against it

without actually ever asking if it's mechanically reasonable for a game to offer an option that effectively gives them a "free win" in 6 seconds

[open lion]

[mystic yoke]

zhun u too
complaints about purely openers take it outside

imo

[grand topaz]

7+X was designed to make that unviable therefore relevant

[open lion]

Openers are like the whole point of the bag tho soo

I guess it relevant

[grand topaz]

(i also think C- using mech-TSD is kind of silly)

[thin grail]

i'm actually tempted to pit mech against the people who keep using it on me but i'm not that evil

[grand topaz]

the goal of this game is to be as evil as possible by any means necessary

[honest oriole]

95% of playerbase

[mystic yoke]

99%

X rank is only 1%

[wanton mulch]

how is this thread not locked yet 😭

[winged tartan]

⌷

there's been no serious conversation behind the scenes about doing that lol

[mystic yoke]

ill just keep rerouting people to my thread

[open lion]

[wanton mulch]

well uh yeah but how about extreme slowmode instead inf argu

[mystic yoke]

thread's not active enough for it anymore

[grand topaz]

i liked the argument that 7+X making tetrio more unique to other stackers is technically a good thing

[open lion]

[rare sequoia]

different =/= better

[grand topaz]

in certain cases it is, in certain cases it is not

just the thing that "but it is more like other stackers" in itself doesn't mean "it's better this way"

[warm galleon]

Fixing game-breaking strategies ultimately makes the game more fun for more people

[rare sequoia]

Not quite sure what you mean

[torpid acorn]

Discourse on proposed ideas and suggestions is good

[torpid acorn]

Maybe, but I dispute the "game breaking strategies" argument

And if you "fix" this by simply flat out removing them, people will just find new ones

I'd rather see balance adjustments rather than dramatic rule ch ances

7+x doesn't prevent looping tspin builds. When i suggest nerfing PCs to nerf the many openers surrounding them people will say "but it doesn't nerf non PC openers. But it seems the ones in question tend to be looping strategies which aren't really eliminated by changing the bag system

if changing the piece generation was entirely the only way to solve this

i'd rather go true random

that essentially eliminates all tactics because you can't count on XYZ piece coming when you need it

But eliminating all strategies aside from freestyling quads and t spins, to me, would make the game a LOT less fun

knowledge is power and a player shoudl be permitted to rise by their knowledge of the game as much as their mechanical skill

I mean you can just look at the thread reactions above to get a pretty good idea. Factoring in likely overlap between similar emoji, it seems to me like its practically a dead heat.

But the question is, who is posting here but not playing the game?

Being active in this discord likely heavily baises towards current players

[warm galleon]

These are actual TL rounds I had today. This shit is not fun and being able to open at 4pps with a memorized sequence is gamebreaking. Given the off chance I was able to survive the initial deluge and we actually got to play the game outside of memorized, stale sequences, this person's skill fell off a cliff. All 3 of these rounds were against the same person.

[torpid acorn]

"Given the off chance I was able to survive the initial deluge"

You're kinda making my case for me here. you can survive it and you can fight back. And you did

Frankly I'd get massive satisfaction from putting such a player in their place

But that's just me

[grand topaz]

this entire server is massive selection bias. Your regular A- to S- person won't even come here

[torpid acorn]

Well yes, and its true of pretty much any discord. only the most serious players take part in the community outside the game

[grand topaz]

they especially won't come to this thread especially not 6 weeks after the fact.

[warm galleon]

I lost 7-2 because they sent me a ton of lines in the first 15-ish seconds too many times for me to survive

[grand topaz]

this is what fun looks like, trust

[torpid acorn]

I've said many times that this can be solved with balance adjustments instead of messing with the peice generation

[torpid acorn]

The thing here is you can't just speak on their behalf

Their input is needed

[grand topaz]

very interesting, but then what are you doing

[torpid acorn]

play casual games in pub lobbies. Find a mediocre player and invite them to sound off

[open lion]

[warm galleon]

The problem is that they were too good at one game-breaking thing and I was unable to get around that

[tired flame]

Yeah personally I see 4wide spamming getting buffed. WIth the counter options of tsd spam and pc loop not being an option.

I really wonder if lower ranking players want 4wide spam or how it is currently

[grand topaz]

the Real question is if it's "game-breaking" or "the game"

[torpid acorn]

But you yourself said you did, more than once

[tired flame]

7+x also nerfs plonking and downstacking overall with the extra rng pieces to cycle through

[torpid acorn]

I dispute the "game breaking" argument, because there are ays through it

and some minor balance adjustments could easily bring much of it in line

[tired flame]

Yeah I really see it as a downstacking skill issue

[open lion]

[tired flame]

slower player will have to downstack more . . .

[torpid acorn]

The ones that aren't solved by this aren't prevented by changing the bag

[warm galleon]

The ways through it are to use the same strats or hope your opponent misdrops

[torpid acorn]

except true random or something close to it

[torpid acorn]

No, there absolutely is counterplay

[warm galleon]

How you gonna counterplay 292apm at 4.4pps in 9 seconds

[grand topaz]

The ones that aren't solved by this aren't prevented by changing the bag
considering 7+X literally destroys reliability of multi-bag kill openers, it.. kinda does

[open lion]

Maybe also have to have enough speed at the same time

[grand topaz]

unfortunately you have to match their opener speed with your burst speed otherwise you die.

[torpid acorn]

Nerfing PCs would balance many of the most popular openers

[grand topaz]

extended-sdpc-spin ?

[torpid acorn]

the only arguments ive seen to refute this revolve around gameplay loops

and again, loops aren't prevented by 7+x

Any pattern, even a delayed pattern, allows loops

[warm galleon]

Right. So you have to match the busted strat with the busted strat because other strats can't compete. That's the definition of game-breaking

[torpid acorn]

No, you don't have to match their strat

"Counterplay"

i hope hes not trolling me because I actually found myself agreeing with Zombie lol

[grand topaz]

as i said... the question unfortunately is whether it is "game-breaking" or "the game"

[torpid acorn]

The openers I see most can easily be nerfed by reducing the fixed line send of PCs

There are others, sure. but those are also more able to be countered IMO

[open lion]

Remove pcs

[grand topaz]

that won't help with stickspin

in uh, C+ to S rank

[torpid acorn]

I'm familiar with stickspin and frankly im far less afraid of that than PC openers like sdpc

[grand topaz]

well yes because if they get the SDPC then they probably get the DPC

at which point you are most likely dead because they are looping with 4 pps

if they get it 5 times then just close the game

[torpid acorn]

but honestly even if i copy them and do it slower

i will still survive

I can also wait for the line send

[grand topaz]

the real loss was the time i spent trying to play the game at the time

better to just re-queue

tho i don't do it much

some sets just aren't fun to play 🤷

[torpid acorn]

it's not fun to keep playing against someone who's clearly and obviously better than me and I take issue with having recieved an actual warning for giving up, but that's another discussion

Not a FF like above

but a pop up warning message telling me not to give up

[torpid acorn]

And yes, I agree, some sets aren't fun to play. But that doesn't mean massive gameplay changes are required

every game you play will have bad matches

whether it's tetrio or league or overwatch or auto chess or whatever else

[grand topaz]

this whole thread is about whether there are enough sets that aren't fun to play directly caused by a specific strategy that is targeted by the new bag system

and potentially reducing game's retention rate globlaly

[torpid acorn]

Weakening strategies is better than eliminating it

[grand topaz]

it's weaker, not eliminated

[torpid acorn]

and I don't see the evidence that this is a direct cause of any retention rate issue

[torpid acorn]

Please perform a PC opener (excluding the 2 line PC enabled by it) with 7+X and post the replay

[warm galleon]

Do you really think osk would mess with TL just to mess with it if there wasn't a serious underlying issue?

[torpid acorn]

Not necessairly. They test things all the time.

you can't derive any specific meaning from it, with this being a rare exception since it was explicitly stated what the consequences of the change were

during the test

[open lion]

y remove tki

[grand topaz]

to stop every single 2nd game from becoming flat top tki lst

[torpid acorn]

Personally i see enough variance in tactics from game to game

[open lion]

Wat if someone not creative

[torpid acorn]

I myself may use many different strategies in a single match to try to find a hole in their armor

sometimes finding that weakness means a reverse sweep

[warm galleon]

That might work at SS rank. Once you find someone opening at 4pps, there will be almost nothing you can do besides using the same strat or hoping for an early md

[torpid acorn]

For me, if someone is opening at 4pps even their midgame pps is probably quite a bit higher than mine

and thus i would conclude they're simply better in general

system working as intended

[warm galleon]

So you missed me getting obliterated by an opener at 4.44pps in 9 seconds and that same player falling all the way to 2.35pps when the game went for 91 seconds

[torpid acorn]

like i said

thats still quite a bit higher than mine

so they should still have the edge in midgame

I wouldn't expect to win

even without the opener

[warm galleon]

I don't expect to win every game, but I do expect to have fun in most games I play

[torpid acorn]

I do. the occasional lopsided match is frustrating but again, i see it as the system working as intended and moving up a superior player

[warm galleon]

Being forced to use OP strat or lose to OP strat is no fun

[torpid acorn]

Again, you don't have to copy their strat to beat it

[warm galleon]

There are absolutely cases where if you're not using an opener against an opener main, then you're automatically dead

[grand topaz]

cute ideology, but have you actually fought 3.5 pps extended-sdpc?

[tired flame]

Chess have the same rules for hundreds of years for the most part.

If a game have enough depth and complexity to play around, I dont think it necessary to change or modify parts of it randomly just for variety.

That said TETRIO is obviously not as established and well known as Chess. I do believe it warrant changes to attract and hold onto players to grow.

IMO having more game mode variety of the singleplayer or even multiplayer as options would probably help out. I really like swapping between different game mode over the years, and how interconnected some aspects and skills apply to all the game modes.

Something like 6-8 player room casual matchmaking with the custom random boards/queues. Adding more singleplayer modes like cheeserace, 20 tsd, maps/puzzles, an tutorial will probably be better options into changes for retention.

Its probalby no different from daily chess puzzles, chess agaisnt ai, chess with timelimits etc. The core mechanics applying to different modified rules but still variety and fun.

[torpid acorn]

ive played enough games to have seen just about everything

unless its something that only X players do because I've never played against an X

[grand topaz]

it's the 24.7k tech

[open lion]

[grand topaz]

you mirror it or you die

it's really that simple

[open lion]

[torpid acorn]

I'll believe it when i see it

[open lion]

mayb

I think maybe having to mirror might be too extreme

But that’s ussually not what happens maybe

[quick sapphire]

They die.

[open lion]

[thin grail]

i'm speaking as a regular A, do you mind my input?

[torpid acorn]

everyone is welcome to participate in this thread, I think its much better if it isn't the same 5 people going in circles 😛

[thin grail]

tbf this thread is not that visible

[grand topaz]

creativity is overrated

memorize every good pattern and reject all others

[thin grail]

👏 Chess 👏 is 👏 turn 👏 based

[torpid acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/ice-cube-gif-18623505

[thin grail]

please don't bring up the chess argument

[torpid acorn]

Although i mostly agree that you can't really compare them directly, that doesn't necessairly mean that you can't learn anything from looking at those things

[thin grail]

chess does not (yet) have a strategy that give you instant win if you just grind hard enough

[tired flame]

you missed the point entirely

😔

I'm talking about variety doesnt necessarily mean changing up constantly

the core mechanics can stay the same

but then apply changes in objectives or environments

hence why i brought up 20 tsd, cheese race, blitz chess, etc

and funny enough turn based tetris does exist as a game mode

[eternal merlin]

Usually games change the meta to spice it up or add new mechanics

They rarely remove or change main mechanics of the games

Changing the meta would be nerfing openers in a way that doesn’t change the bag system

[spring minnow]

send and cancel

[golden drum]

Cancel and counter

[hybrid depot]

changing things is not a bad thing

it's the whole reason games have balancing updates

or new seasons, etc

for the chess argument, i'd say that chess is more or less a timeless game (what im trying to say is, it's an extremely old game that has proven to be """perfect""" as it is)

i cant think of many other games that are the same

and i cant think of any videogames that do that

[sharp condor]

Neither does tetrio lol

[sharp condor]

Idk where this idea comes from but i keep seeing it be repeated and it’s just not true

[mystic yoke]

but you see cookie

I am an extended sdpc main too

because the only way is to mirror it

[sharp condor]

lol

[grand topaz]

unironically what happened in my case but on the bright side I got 24k+

[torpid acorn]

That's because chess is turn based. There is no PPS gap because nothing happens per second in chess...

[torpid acorn]

Tetris: the board game

It's a thing

Really old in fact

[torpid acorn]

The only way there's no other way is if you're too slow or bad.

You don't have to mirror them or match their speed

[mystic yoke]

guess i need /s

[open lion]

It’s ussually maybe not hard to force people into midgame though

[grand topaz]

you nust need to have to match their opener speed with your burst speed

[odd dew]

I would love seeing turn based tetris

one bag per turn lol

[bronze crest]

https://kingofstackers.com/
(requires login to play)

[thin grail]

turn based tetris is a thing

[earnest socket]

chesstris

[cloud trout]

Idk if this is a good idea but, can't we make a live poll for every registered account over 2 years (for experience or just everyone), everyone one vote, if over 50% of people don't want it don't change it?

[cinder vapor]

For a change as drastic as 7+X I'd say >50% vote wouldn't be a great idea. Despite the change benefiting me I would have said >70% at least though I feel like other options should be considered beforehand.

[cloud trout]

you mean >70% for the people that want it or the people that dont want it?

[quick sapphire]

There is already votes.

[minor coral]

a flat vote is an awful idea regardless lol

[quick sapphire]

Lets be honest people are only gonna vote for what benefits them.

Still hope we get new TL tests ahead.

[chilly robin]

i think

that if 1 person votes for 7+x

it should be added

and i vote yes

gg

[open lion]

[quick sapphire]

[open lion]

[winged tartan]

[torpid acorn]

My opinion is nothing to do with benefit in terms of "which way would I do better in." But I think changing the rules in a way the hard restricts various strategic options is not a good approach. It's also damaging to any serious player of any other Guideline based game who discovers Tetr.io. This change seems to be aimed at, and really only truly benefits, newcomers that don't come from or haven't seriously played another stacker clone.

My ranking did not really suffer during the test- but I still don't like the change.

Would I quit if it was implemented? Probably not. But I personally found it less fun, not more.

[torpid acorn]

I would really rather not guinea pig test stuff like this live. Use that testing group

If something comes up and you don't like the idea of it, you're either forced to put up with it or not play until it is over

[chilly robin]

so the rest of us that deal with standard openers literally every other day of the year are forced to put up with it
BUT THE ONE DAY they test, you complain

actually insane

[torpid acorn]

you really need to stop saying that

"actually insane"

clearly doesn't know wh at that means

[chilly robin]

sorry you dont like my speech patterns

[torpid acorn]

It's not insane no matter how much you want it to be

It's legitimate feedback

I didn't like it, i said so

who the hell are you to call that "insane"

[chilly robin]

i mean its pretty entitles to complaing about the 1 day of testing they do in tl but to then refuse to acknowledged every other day of the year we continue to be "force to put up with openers"

[torpid acorn]

Making wild ch anges to a ranked game mode with no prior announcement is not a good way to test feature changes

I played it, I dealt with it, I did fine, doesn't mean I have to like it