Do you feel like you’re lacking anywhere
#competitive_discussion
molten oasis
nocturne holly
nah not really
just bringing and using dengo is hard
that’s honestly the only part I struggle with tbh
ember linden
Ah Kingambit, love that guy
molten oasis
just bringing and using dengo is hard
Yea that’s fine
nocturne holly
it’s just it’s hard to set up and get into a good position
ember linden
Does indeed
dull ibex
Arcanine-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Head Smash
- Rock Slide
- Extreme Speed
Thoughts
ember linden
Immediate 50% boost instead of needing one turn to set up that is usually risky
next stump
Arcanine-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Tera Type: Norm...
what is the HP for?
ember linden
Immediate 50% boost instead of needing one turn to set up that is usually risky
Protect is nice I’m sure, I’d know. I switched to amulet lando lol
dull ibex
that would be a waste of band no (?)
Why would it?
dull ibex
what is the HP for?
I like bulk didn't wanna calc
ember linden
Probably should but I’m sure the set is decent
charred saddle
its like, you have a multiplicative item, but you dont put the EV investment there
dull ibex
Yeah
nocturne holly
swap to specs gholdengo
Dillon you still got that specs dengo set?
charred saddle
not bad, but i feel more worth from putting into attack
dull ibex
It's less good but a waste is a stretch
charred saddle
yeah ig
dull ibex
The original item was sitrus but was too passive
charred saddle
LO then
dull ibex
But that's less damage then band and does more recoil
ember linden
What if you just kill them with damage instead of trying to take the hit tho
dull ibex
Why would I use life orb unless I'm using a mon that also wants to protect
ember linden
Arcanine has 2 quad weaknesses, why would it not want to protect sometimes😭
next stump
Dillon you still got that specs dengo set?
mine was super catered towards having Maushold support
dull ibex
Anyways yeah no life orb isn't happen
next stump
I think you just want enough HP/DEF to live adamant chien-pao sucker
ember linden
I’m sure Dray’s spread would be fine
next stump
and then hit the SPE stat you want under tailwind (usually like 120-130ish)
and then rest in SpA
next stump
ah nvm I think it's too much HP/DEF investment to live it
nocturne holly
damn
ember linden
I think testing Dray’s spread w/ tera steel would be a good idea. Or just testing his spread without tera steel
next stump
first step when making offensive spreads is always finding the speed stat you want
I think bare minimum you want like 115-116 SPE to outspeed most Heatran/Rilla/Dragonite
charred saddle
i think the next one is around 140ish speed? i forgot what its for tho
oh nvm its for tailwind
nocturne holly
I think bare minimum you want like 115-116 SPE to outspeed most Heatran/Rilla/Dr...
What do I wanna calc to live?
ember linden
First thing is Pao adamant attacks
nocturne holly
I’ll try forcing myself into using the np set more, but if it doesn’t work I’ll make the spread
nocturne holly
First thing is Pao adamant attacks
Dillon said living adamant chien sucker is too much hp/sp def
ember linden
True
Maybe gambit sucker?
Might not be worth bc of dark tera glasses stuff
Probably also too much HP DEF investment
You could do -1 attack calcs and ev for some special hits
ember linden
Is it tho?
nocturne holly
fr I gotta start working on it
ember linden
I just find it interesting
nocturne holly
I hate it
Tedious and annoying
ember linden
Coming up with a good spread is the best feeling in the world
I’m in love with my wellspring spread
nocturne holly
i prefer winning
ember linden
Good spreads win you games
charred saddle
proper EV spread can get you a lot of benefits, rather than just 252 at stats, or copying other stats.
since most likely the team you have had different idea
nocturne holly
Good spreads win you games
I win games 😊😊😊
jk I really gotta get better at making spreads
they’re just so annoying for me to make
nocturne holly
that’s what I’m doin rn
yea but making spreads and being sure in what they do is cracked
I needa make dengo work
amoonguss and dengo are crazy together
Also have harc and moon for tw and intim support
Idk why I can’t make it work
mighty stump
Also have harc and moon for tw and intim support
cuz ur using amoonguss
im just running Moon-Dengo with Clef
then go FWG with Rilla/HArc/Urshifu
its free
nocturne holly
cuz ur using amoonguss
What’s wrong with moonguss?
mighty stump
Clefairy has better horizontal synergy
Gholdengo/Amoonguss looks at Chi Yu and cries
nocturne holly
Clefairy has better horizontal synergy
So clef over amoonguss?
well I kinda like amoonguss as it s a good switch into flutter
I have moon and darkshifu
ember linden
Hi Tofu
nocturne holly
Bo3 anyone?
mighty stump
crisp venture
Hi everyone 🙂
I’d absolutely love some helping making a garganacl team.
I love the bulk and ability.
hollow ginkgo
Does anyone have a spare Modest Mint? I can give a mint in return.
nocturne holly
BRO IM PLAYING SGAINST THIS FUCKING STALLER
RIMER STALLER WAITS TILL HE HAS 5 SECONDS LEFT AND THEN MOVES
AND ITS BO3
I’m so fucking brain rotted
Been playing pretty shit
I think ima try specs dengo
dull ibex
👀
we talked about hybrid teams
and someone else in another made a tailroom team I want too
mighty stump
Hi everyone 🙂
I’d absolutely love some helping making a garganacl team.
I lov...
Its probably going to be difficult
Old sets was Salt Cure/Protect/Recover/Wide Guard
Youd run Leftovers
Right now I think I can actually recommend Heavy Slam over Wide Guard so you can force Flutter Mane out
You’d probably want some semblance of a defensive typing due to Urshifu Water and Rillaboom being so prevalent
Dragon Teras are alright, id honestly also consider Fire if you have no orher way to deal with Chi-Flutter
dull ibex
mighty stump
I like how you have
Perish Song Specs
knowing full well
You probably wont click it
sjhshs
dull ibex
You probably wont click it
I won't click power gem
mighty stump
L
dull ibex
I don't like the tailroom team after a few games lmao
mighty stump
Razzle dazzled
bold geode
Fuck it
dull ibex
L rizz
bold geode
I'm actually finna ladder with a team
charred saddle
Anyone around for a vgc stream 👀
after i got back from lab, sure 
mighty stump
Anyone around for a vgc stream 👀
sure canndo
dull ibex
based
watching wolfey until people show up
@mighty stump
the fast and aggressive starter pack
robust jackal
dull ibex
YOu do not need 4
dull ibex
Dusclops used Night Shade!
(The opposing Flutter Mane lost 38% of its health!)
Ursaluna used Hyper Voice!
(The opposing Flutter Mane lost 62% of its health!)
(The opposing Iron Hands lost 12% of its health!)
The opposing Flutter Mane fainted!
The opposing Iron Hands fainted!
redstonejesus won the battle!
redstonejesus's rating: 1152 → 1172
(+20 for winning)
ZPokeProfessor's rating: 1086 → 1067
(-19 for losing)
I razzled his dazzle
hollow ginkgo
So ya about that, I just lost using Chi-Yu and it telepprted me to a center. Is there no way around that?
dull ibex
nope
hollow ginkgo
Dam. So the gring can just end an hour in if you're unlucky?
dull ibex
Dam. So the gring can just end an hour in if you're unlucky?
I don't die because im ev'd for it
mighty stump
Did you run Specs Modest Chi-Yu
hollow ginkgo
Ohhhh I've been putting amulet coin on for more money. Should've done that
But ya I'm evd into max SpA and Modest. Guess I should slap on specs
dull ibex
its not going to work
hollow ginkgo
Why's that
dull ibex
you need amulet coin for the max ammount of money
and you need level 100 and specific evs for the money farm
you can't just slap anything into the tournament and farm money
hollow ginkgo
I'm level 100 and maxed out SpA and Spe evs. I asked earlier what you guys use and I was told Chi-Yu and Pixilate Hyper Voice Slyveon
dull ibex
yes but you can't just max max
you will die to any mon that survives and hit and have to start over
dense lion
In general
Oh btw have you seen the VGC meme rant that I typed up earlier
dense lion
Do I have permission to post a text wall
dense lion
I wanna make sure you're absolutely okay with it
lofty tartan
I'm level 100 and maxed out SpA and Spe evs. I asked earlier what you guys use a...
Sylveon @ Amulet Coin
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 76 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
Use this. Only thing that kills it is a lucky freeze from Swalot Ice Punch - very rare.
Sylveon is more stable. Chi-Yu with no defense EVs is gonna die somewhere
Make sure to hypertrain IVs as well
mighty stump
I wanna make sure you're absolutely okay with it
Yea
dapper crag
you can't just slap anything into the tournament and farm money
You actually can slap about anything lvl 100 with a strong move and decent stats, ends up deleting lower lvl Mons by a wide stretch
mighty stump
Nothings going on atm so
dull ibex
You actually can slap about anything lvl 100 with a strong move and decent stats...
you can not I have tried it
dense lion
Nothings going on atm so
Ty in advance 
gentle cragBOT
Ty in advance <:PrayGrovyle:669500465830035456>
greencross has given 1 Gen Rep to woodtofu
dull ibex
one or two lives a hit and ohko the mon
dense lion
Pokémon VGC Rant
• TPC wants more people to get interested into competitive? Great, awesome, makes sense. How are they doing that?
• ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
• Official format is doubles? How about <1% of story battles in doubles format?
• Take the time to build a Pokémon school in almost every generation
• Teach NOTHING about doubles, let alone competitive, great planning
• Lots of other places make you backtrack, why not constantly add new stuff to teach in the school
• Zero reason to go back to the school, when there’s so much you can teach
• Get your casual fanbase interested in your competitive scene
• Nowhere for them to learn about it
• Sure, they can go to YouTube, but why not introduce at least the basics in the game?
• How do they know who’s good to watch? What do they even know what they need to learn about?
• Why are people always talking about Eevees and Eyevees, what does that have to do with my Pokémon?
• How come other people’s Pokémon have better stats than mine, what did I do wrong?
• What are bottle caps even good for?
• ALL of the info databases for them are located outside the game
• Half of these aren’t even good info and have misinformation
• Okay okay, that aside. They go to YouTube, learn a little bit, want to try it out
• NOW THERE’S NO BATTLE TOWER
• Where are people going to test things out in low-stakes battles?
• Not even a consistent way to do double battles in the game regularly, smh
• Go on the in-game ladder? Get bodied by the people who have experience and know what you’re doing
• Incredible, now the new players are discouraged in themselves
• What a great way to build your competitive player-base, round of applause
Lmfao
On the bright side
I was saying early in SV's release
You can tell who went to the academy or not
dense lion
I mean, the info they give there is negligible
mighty stump
Fairly
dull ibex
# Pokémon VGC Rant
• TPC wants more people to get interested into competi...
this is fantastic bait
dapper crag
one or two lives a hit and ohko the mon
If you willfully try with bad Mons yeah I get that, but a starter can wreck them, pseudo legendaries can and so on
mighty stump
Based
dull ibex
If you willfully try with bad Mons yeah I get that, but a starter can wreck them...
alright
lofty tartan
mighty stump
Its worse when people just parrot stuff
Without applying their own critical thinking
dense lion
I'm glad I have the comp channel's approval on this
lofty tartan
💯
dull ibex
pokemon legitimately is still awful for beginners imo
dapper crag
Tbh being bodied by better players is like one of the best ways you can learn
mighty stump
I wrote 26 pages of information just so I could compile SOMETHING
dense lion
I also am 100% okay with you guys meme'ing this in here LOL
dull ibex
it takes alot of time for teams, and there is a lack of resources
mighty stump
Tbh being bodied by better players is like one of the best ways you can learn
Not when you don't have any idea what's going on, cause reviewing games is a skill initself
And again, that's still a knowledge barrier
lofty tartan
Not when you don't have any idea what's going on, cause reviewing games is a ski...
This. Right here. You learn from losses, but only if you understand why you lost. If you're just new and getting wrecked that doesn't help you
dull ibex
the best way to learn imo is coaching or the more serious poketubers
dapper crag
Not when you don't have any idea what's going on, cause reviewing games is a ski...
You're not even reviewing games at this point, you're learning what is bodying you (like strong Mons in the format, maybe you grow your distaste for legendary spamming meta also and discover it ain't for you)
dull ibex
I dont think getting demolished with no feedback is good for anyone
that just makes new players quick because its "bullshit"
mighty stump
You're not looking at it from a complete starters point of view here. Not everyone just wants to hard lose every game to learn
That's why I make it a point to ease anyone in without slapping meta teams in their face if they wanna build with something
dull ibex
me as a player rn getting crapped on by a pro would probably help me because I can review games
dapper crag
One thing I discussed with my coach was to not put too much thoughts into reviewing games and instead focusing on the next one cause you can't win them all even if you did everything perfect in your honest perspective
mighty stump
If my boxing coach just decked me 10x across the face rather than telling me after 1x to keep my hands up I probably would be wondering "why the fuck does anyone find this enjoyable"
Who's your coach?
dapper crag
Justin Tang
mighty stump
Then I disagree with Justin Tang
dull ibex
Wow I disagree with justin tang that is wild
I think you need to mix reviewing gameplay and the mentality of there is always next game
lofty tartan
I think both of those mentalities have merit, but just repeating it without understanding the full context of it lacks merit.
dapper crag
Then again they're a young prodigy lol, that's why I was interested in peaking into their mindset
lofty tartan
That statement does not infer you should just ignore all past games, and I highly doubt Tang does.
mighty stump
Justin Tang definitely reviews games
Especially during labbing sessions
Especially for flowcharts
lofty tartan
You should absolutely treat each match as an individual instance to reduce likelihood of tilting and miring in self-defeating mentality.
dapper crag
Getting in more games vs spending time reviewing the past
lofty tartan
Don't get hung up on that you lost to a freeze and go to the next match, but you need to still understand why you losee.
Just getting in games is not the biggest benefit.
I know plenty of players who play way more games than me but they have less success
mighty stump
Getting in more games vs spending time reviewing the past
You're misunderstanding me cause mindlessly spamming games isnt productive either since at most you get pattern recognition
My point is a combination of both, and being able to review your games
Is important
dapper crag
You're misunderstanding me cause mindlessly spamming games isnt productive eithe...
I never said mindlessly spamming games though
dapper crag
If youre not mindlessly spamming games, then thats reviewing
Nah, you play a couple of games then you stop, win or lose
mighty stump
Even if its one or two thoughts
lofty tartan
mighty stump
???
dapper crag
Keeps the mind sharper and you're less prone to tilting
Even if I have loss streak, it ain't a huge one. If it's a win streak, then I seal it and don't risk blemishing it with a loss
mighty stump
But that's completely subjective and also outwith the scope of reviewing vs playing, as some people can retain mental through hours of VGC
dull ibex
I feel heavily into the trap of caring about a number
its bad enough that if my elo is low I can't accept praise from others
bold geode
dapper crag
I feel that reviewing games is really useful for specific matchups you want to go over again. but reviewing all games like a robot isn't going to cut it for me.
dull ibex
but if you study the craft you will get better
dapper crag
Theory vs practice
dull ibex
also that isnt what tofu said
there is a middle ground here
you need to mix practice and study
dapper crag
I hear what others say, just sharing my mindset
And how I grew it with two sessions with my coach so far
mighty stump
Makes sense
I do agree with the aspect that at trhe end of the day game experience is the highest bang for your buck to learn
dapper crag
You could teach the theory to someone over and over again, but if they don't use it then it's meaningless. I vastly prefer making the errors and having proactive thoughts on the spot (like I should I've done this over that after the turn plays out).
Instead of going to review the game and realizing the mistake, but that's not a skill everybody has when they play the game. I was ''lucky'' enough to have Singles experience and already knowing a lot of basic info about Pokemon that translates into Doubles.
mighty stump
Yeah, so middle ground
In the same sense that someone getting beat senseless wouldnt gain any valuable experience out of it if the mindset isnt established beforehand
and would instead feel discouraged to even play
And I see this all the time
dapper crag
Mindset is big though
The way I see it is making it so I'm immune to tilt and only seek fun through competing vs myself
mighty stump
Yes, but that mindset cannot apply to everyone
Especially (in my experience as well) a neurodivergent-skewed hobby
dapper crag
ofc, that comes down to knowing yourself which... is harder when you're a child vs a fully grown adult vs a teen
dapper crag
Especially (in my experience as well) a neurodivergent-skewed hobby
wdym with that, not too sure what you're actually referring to
mighty stump
Basically people who have altered brain functionality
Its an interesting trend I noticed
dapper crag
What does that have to do with the hobby ?
mighty stump
So they have different strengths/challenges
dull ibex
it means alot of people with neurodivergency happen to play pokemon its not a comment on the hobby
mighty stump
Because certain mindsets can be difficult to achieve with neurodivergency
and VGC is a very mental heavy hobby
Just a side comment
Nothing much really
dapper crag
Gotcha, I wasn't sure where you were going with that
It's something I like a lot but it's so vague and unprecise. Covers a lot of ground bundled up together.
Then you start coming with labels and patterns, giving recognition while not ostracizing
lofty tartan
dull ibex
sorry im a little dense what is vague and unprecise?
dapper crag
sorry im a little dense what is vague and unprecise?
We're only starting to dig into our brain matter. Neurodivergence stands for a whole lot of things that are not that similar. Like how ADHD and autism can fall under that category without being the same thing. If someone says they're neurodivergent, you've got no clues what they actually are trying to tell you they are right.
dull ibex
"A little"
Nintendo WII
heres the thing autism and adhd have alot of overlap though
a few of these neurodivergent disorders have overlap
dapper crag
Having overlaps doesn't make them 100% similar trust me
lofty tartan
Yeah I mean the term neurodivergent directly implies that they are diverged from the normal composition of the average psyche
dull ibex
nobody said they are
lofty tartan
That's why that term is used. It's supposed to be general.
lofty tartan
I didn't say you implied anything. Just the term itself is supposed to be general and that's why it exists.
dull ibex
no jaySP
lofty tartan
Ah
mighty stump
dull ibex
also this not everyone for sure but in my personal expirence neurodivergent just means autism to people
lofty tartan
Realistically this probably isn't the right talk for this channel. And I doubt we're any authorities on the matter, either.
mighty stump
We've had worse topics so honestly
dull ibex
if you mean im not a doctor no
mighty stump
Bar is in hell
dull ibex
I speak with expirence though
dapper crag
Not an expert on the matter but I did get my BA as a Nurse and I stopped a masters in psychology during pandemic
I can speak a few things on the topic without feeling out of my league
dull ibex
I am someone with audhd so I also feel like I can comment as well
dapper crag
Commenting is welcomed from everyone right, as long as it's not pure bashing/hatred.
dull ibex
I just meant mine holds atleast a little weight is all
mighty stump
No comment cause Tofu is not neurodivergent
dapper crag
It's hard to get properly diagnosed in the 1st place and we lack enough ressources to support most of them once they're ''found''
dull ibex
Im lucky enough to be very clearly neurodivergent and diagnosed as a child
dull ibex
It's hard to get properly diagnosed in the 1st place and we lack enough ressourc...
mental health stuff in general is nightmare
between lack of resources and general stigma
dapper crag
There's a saying in English I fell in love with : There is method to my madness
dapper crag
mental health stuff in general is nightmare
I could rant on this forever, I so badly want to help the whole world but you just can't
dull ibex
I could rant on this forever, I so badly want to help the whole world but you ju...
Yeah I agree
I wish I was equipped to help others
the closest I get is the small victories in here
dapper crag
You got dealt your genes at birth, good luck
dull ibex
thanks
you know what feels great
Having people in here ping me with teams they played and saying they climbed with it
dapper crag
Even the smallest improvement is a victory
dapper crag
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9vgc2023regulationebo3-1985919641
solo Dozo ? what's the set ?
dapper crag
Just max max
max max what lol, I've got not clues
bold geode
HP SpDef
dapper crag
what about the moveset/item
bold geode
Yawn/Curse/Liquidation/Protect
Rest is actually standard Dozo stuff
dapper crag
Interesting, looks like a good defensive thingy I might want to give a shot to
I've been very curious about TatsuDozo gimmick in itself but I don't feel comfy using it
But solo Dozo looks pretty solid
dull ibex
https://pokepast.es/3ab3a9169ce35f53 loving this team even though im bad at piloting it
working on some notes for it
dapper crag
https://pokepast.es/3ab3a9169ce35f53 loving this team even though im bad at pilo...
Lando learns Brick Break
dull ibex
not even considering that tbh
dapper crag
it's ran a surprising amount on the little ghost
dull ibex
ig
dull ibex
ye
dapper crag
what is this acronym supposed to stand for ?
dull ibex
i gues
dapper crag
lol
dull ibex
very neutral
dull ibex
Subject to change
charred saddle
rockpon and tealpon sad
dull ibex
I wanted them in S or A
dapper crag
I feel like Amoonguss is not that rare to see and Heatran is clearly meta defining
dull ibex
im not sure it is tbh
dapper crag
Look at Chi-Yu usage vs Heatran
dapper crag
Chi-Yu needs to be babysitted by Mane, Heatran can sit alone
dull ibex
harc is used more then amoongus I dont think harc is meta shaping
dull ibex
Chi-Yu needs to be babysitted by Mane, Heatran can sit alone
it absolutely does not
dapper crag
Harc I can't speak much not using it but it's been winning regionals a whole lot
dapper crag
It's in there, Urshi water is at 24% for october on showdown and dark is 10%
dull ibex
yeah that is less then most of excellent and meta shaping tier lmao
dapper crag
That's quite close to Chi-Yu
dull ibex
dusclops is excellent and has like 1%?
dapper crag
Chi-Yu is 14%
dull ibex
That's quite close to Chi-Yu
that is my point
alot of the excellent and top tiers mon don't have the usage to match
dapper crag
Urshifu Dark is like the compression for Pao-Urshifu Water basically
dull ibex
its different from pao and rapid
pao is an enabler
urshifu is a water type sweeper, durishfu is a dark type sweeper
dapper crag
Dark doesn't need the enabler since it gets better priority right
dapper crag
You get the sucker from pao and the same base power as urshi water
dull ibex
but rapid doesnt need pao either
dapper crag
Dark shifu doesn't want to sit next to Pao
dapper crag
3% Pao usage with Dark shifu
dapper crag
but usage does teach us some things
dull ibex
its not concrete enough to be the end all be all
realistically content creators could influence usage
dapper crag
if usage is not concrete then what is concrete ?
dull ibex
nothing
meta game is alot of opinions
I think all 4 ogerpons are strong enough to be at worst A tier
others don't agree with me
dapper crag
Isn't metagame the act of using real world information to play the game (like stats or tournament results)
dull ibex
kind of
but also I can't just base a tierlist off usage because then every one is the same
dapper crag
i mean, going of meaning of meta defining is metagame defining right
so what defines the meta would be stuff that wins more
dull ibex
yes shaping stuff around it
dapper crag
and not opinions imo
dull ibex
but that's not objective and ever changing
im not going to put harc in S tier because its winning 4 regionals
dapper crag
How are stats not objective ?
dull ibex
because winning a tournament doesnt equal power theres a million things that go into that
dapper crag
But how can stats not be objective ?
dull ibex
because vgc isnt black and white
dull ibex
yes objectively harcanine is wining more
but harcanine isnt objectively better then hands
dapper crag
I'm not talking specifics here
I'm curious as to what makes stats not objective to you
mighty stump
I think stats just give you a snapshot of what the meta is. Opinion and experience shape it further
Sure, the game being math
Means some things are OBJECTIVELY going to be better options for their niches
But when you get to higher levels of play this whole this better than that doesn't really
Work
dull ibex
brambleghast is another good example
dapper crag
But when you get to higher levels of play this whole this better than that doesn...
Flutter Mane Iron Hands Lando and all top usage Mons stop working in higher lvl of play or you mean something else ?
mighty stump
I mean lower usage mons can find play and place highly despite statistics showing otherwise is more indicative that player skill and educated teambuilding is valuable and statistics dont tell the whole story
and vice versa, just because something placed highly/retained results
doesnt make it objectively good
Its why I can disagree with a lot of top players
Cause the key point as well would then be preference
dapper crag
But if something places high frequently and regularly (like many top 8-16-32 in different tournaments) wouldn't it just be a straight better option than most stuff not doing so ?
mighty stump
Again, aforementioned example like Brambleghast
It placed fairly higly at some big tours, and Worlds even
Farigiraf, also got 2nd place and high results consistently
But its 7% in usage
Brambleghast being 3% when it was in its relevant metagame
Iron Bundle, objectively very good pokemon, high placing, consistent results
10% usage
mighty stump
Kommo-o finding its niche and winning a regionals
3.9%
anything sub 15% isnt even metagame anymore at that point
baxcalibur
2.93%
dull ibex
I think dusclops is insanely good on trick room
dull ibex
2.43%
mighty stump
That's just the generally accepted area
dapper crag
That's pretty common no
mighty stump
But you're actively making the choices for one team
If I have Bundle on my team I see it 100% of the time?
mighty stump
You're still only accounting what you expecting to see.
It doesnt matter if you use it or not
dapper crag
It counts toward usage no ?
mighty stump
But im not playing against myself?
dapper crag
Does it count toward usage ?
mighty stump
When you're looking at stats and what to consider in teambuilding you're considering what matchups youre facing
Why would you consider the usage of your own mons
dull ibex
10% is one in 10
dapper crag
So if usage consider what is on one team, you always have two teams in every game still
mighty stump
and the likelihood you as an individual removed from the measure are to encounter one matchup
dapper crag
What is based on then lol...
If usage is not based on games then what's the calc derivative coming from
mighty stump
Okay
dull ibex
look at tournaments the teams aren't listed in pairs
dapper crag
Tournament usage would be different than ladder usage though
I'm talking about ladder usage since I don't play tournament
mighty stump
Tournament results also shape the metagame?
Lol
It applies to ladder
Teams that win get run on the ladder all the time
dull ibex
ladder usage is based off one team at a time
dapper crag
Yes tournaments results, but usage stats for ladder
mighty stump
Its also the more likely used teams
On rentals
As they will be compiled
So they enter the ladder
Which adds to the usage stats
I don't understand how thats mutually exclusive
dapper crag
Stats can be complex to break down
mighty stump
Like how I dont understand how you deciding what one side of the statistics wouldnt be inflating what you're actually expecting to see
If you're not a third party in the match, you would only be viewing it from the drivers seet
You wouldnt be saying "how likely would I see a red car in traffic" and include your own red car that you drive around in
within that statistic
Cause id just always see a red car: mine
dapper crag
Like how I dont understand how you deciding what one side of the statistics woul...
Aren't they usage statistics ?
Isn't the derivate total usage/all games played
dapper crag
I looked at the statistics without ever having played one game, 1st link I saw here was munchstats
mighty stump
It will be a total derived usaged of all games played
But you'd definitely also be counted as a unique individual
and your own piloting wouldnt stack the usage
If me out of 100 people used brambleghast
Me playing more games than everyone else
Wouldnt increase Brambleghast's usage
within that 100 people
dapper crag
If you played 25% of the total games
mighty stump
It doesnt matter
dapper crag
Then that Pokemon would see more total usage %
mighty stump
Its still counted out of 100 teams
dapper crag
In stats
mighty stump
and out of 100 teams
You would see
1 Brambleghast
Your greater use wouldnt stack
dapper crag
But the usage statistics, are they using all games or your perspective ?
dull ibex
they are using teams not games
dapper crag
Teams are playing games still
dull ibex
my guy its teams
dapper crag
They're together
dull ibex
no they aren't
dapper crag
So having a team and not playing any games woudl count in usage stats ?
mighty stump
Again, each individual would be counted as a unique individual stat
dapper crag
That doesn't sound logic to me
dapper crag
Not talking about inflation here
mighty stump
I am
Because its relevant
You're saying the more an individual plays
The more it will increase a usage stat
dapper crag
not an individual, the more a specific Pokemon is played
Would inflate that Pokemon usage but it would make sense
mighty stump
The more a specific pokemon is played, its still going to fall to general group of individuals
and said group can only
be counted
once
you cannot count multiples within that group of people, im not counting each individual more than once
dapper crag
Is there a post on smogon detailing how stats are compiled actually ?
dull ibex
I have 10 teams with ogerpon if you counted every team of mine it inflates that number
dapper crag
I'd be curious to see the maths behind their method
dull ibex
vgc isnt smogon
dapper crag
Ima ask showdown chat to be fair, better odds to get proper answer there about what counts in the mix
usage stats for ladder is smogon/showdown too
dull ibex
smogon would be singles usage specifically
dull ibex
Ima ask showdown chat to be fair, better odds to get proper answer there about w...
keep me posted
dapper crag
I said showdown
dapper crag
that website is using pikalytics stats anywyas
They're using showdown data
dull ibex
I see
dull ibex
yeah that is switch ranked
dull ibex
I just said that yeah
dapper crag
So munchstats isn't using Pikalytics
Munchstats uses showdown, Pikalytics uses Home and showdown
dull ibex
ok so if i use fluttermane and it has 50% usage I see it in every game?
dapper crag
In every game on one side
dull ibex
no thats's not true
dapper crag
If you were to watch games as a viewer
dull ibex
I have played games without flutter
dapper crag
Yeah it's not 100%
mighty stump
If you were to watch games as a viewer
But as a viewer you wouldnt be considering the matchups?
You're piloting?
Since youre palying in the matchup youre only encountering 1 team at a time
dull ibex
Yeah it's not 100%
but your team example would make it 100%
dapper crag
But as a viewer you wouldnt be considering the matchups?
Why couldn't I look at games and consider statistics ?
dapper crag
but your team example would make it 100%
no, if it's not being used 100% it's not 100%
mighty stump
Because the statistics are for prep matchups?
dull ibex
no, if it's not being used 100% it's not 100%
??????????????????????????????????????
mighty stump
and you'd be expected to be
playing in the match
if youre teambuilding
To account for it
?
dapper crag
Because the statistics are for prep matchups?
The stats are usage stats. What you do with them is a different thing.
whole ibex
dull ibex
god.
mighty stump
If Bundle has 10% usage and you expect it to appear 1/5 matches becuase of two teams
So you expect Flutter to appear 100% of the time because theres two teams?
at its 50% usage?
dapper crag
??????????????????????????????????????
what don't you get ?
dull ibex
your logic
dull ibex
So you expect Flutter to appear 100% of the time because theres two teams?
^
if you are a outside spectator jay
there is a 50% you see fluttermane in a game ONCE OR TWICE
on one team or both
dapper crag
So you expect Flutter to appear 100% of the time because theres two teams?
I've been told this on showdown, Incin was something like 75-85% at some point. That meant you were highly likely to encounter it on both sides of the field if you viewing any particular game.
molten oasis
What did I walk into lol
dull ibex
there is a 50% chance you see mane in a game
dull ibex
I've been told this on showdown, Incin was something like 75-85% at some point. ...
NO ITS NOT
mighty stump
I've been told this on showdown, Incin was something like 75-85% at some point. ...
Thats 75%/85% chance per match?
Incineroar is then counted uniquely
?
mighty stump
You dont count two incineroars as a different incineroar
If youre then playing in the matchup
Youre not counting your own incineraor
So how is Bundle's usage 1/5
whole ibex
What did I walk into lol
good question
mighty stump
at 10%
dapper crag
You dont count two incineroars as a different incineroar
Not different, same entry still
molten oasis
???
dull ibex
right so that game is one game with incin you literally just debunked yourself
dapper crag
right so that game is one game with incin you literally just debunked yourself
this came from someone else
I did not debunk anything, this just proving what I say
dull ibex
they're wrong
dapper crag
how are they wrong
mighty stump
dull ibex
dapper crag
Yes that is if you fix your team
dull ibex
no
dapper crag
Not what I'm sayinfg
mighty stump
The viewer perspective would still be assuming you as an individual are planning to play in matches.
You're not encountering two teams at once
Because the moment you play
dapper crag
No just viewer
dapper crag
Not planning your team here, just watching games
And looking at stats, you count both teams
dull ibex
no you don't
mighty stump
But what value do you as a viewer have to look at stats to not look at it.
To not use it
dapper crag
But what value do you as a viewer have to look at stats to not look at it.
They exist
mighty stump
The moment you use the data you remove yourself and fix the data
dapper crag
And you're just a viewer
mighty stump
Because you always have to view it from a player's PoV
Even from a third party article
dapper crag
Because you always have to view it from a player's PoV
If you're enforcing it but that is bias
I talk about usage stats
mighty stump
Im talking about their use and relevant, if you want to see it purely from a viewer with completely 0 reference to them
Then yes, you would be looking at two unique teams at a time since you have no idea what they are, but it would still be objectively wrong to tell a player participating in matches an inflated stat due to a "viewer" persepctive
The entire point of the bank is to inform players
And from a viewer perspective
The teams individually
Would still be an x% chance
x referring to the current usage stat
dapper crag
I'm talking about usage stats here, not what the player does with them
dapper crag
and you have two teams per game
mighty stump
See, the usage stats here are not viewed as "per game"
Each individual is just that, an individual
You don't pair up teams per match and then include that both as a usage stat
Each team as its separate entity
"per game" usage stats would then be different from your "viewer" perspective
mighty stump
Watching games dont change the treatment of the teams as separate entitites for data compilation
lofty tartan
Munchstats uses showdown, Pikalytics uses Home and showdown
Muchstats was created as a temporary alternative to Pikalytics while people waited for it to be updated too.
mighty stump
its still a per individual, non-per game basis
dapper crag
Muchstats was created as a temporary alternative to Pikalytics while people wait...
Yeah they fed the showdown data to a simple website, it's fantastic
lofty tartan
dull ibex
isnt showdown open source?
dapper crag
its still a per individual, non-per game basis
ok ima this simple, bundle is 10%. so it's 10% to see a bundle on a team right ?
dull ibex
ok ima this simple, bundle is 10%. so it's 10% to see a bundle on a team right ?
no
its 10% to see a bundle in the game
your example doesnt work
because with your logic the usage stat PER TEAM would 20%
dapper crag
yeah no
dull ibex
yes man you don't dictate this
dapper crag
because with your logic the usage stat PER TEAM would 20%
well no if it's 10% it's not 20%
on a single team
dapper crag
what tofu said is what it's about % on team using the mon
and that it doesn't double team usage in single game
dull ibex
tofu is literally saying what i am he agrees
dapper crag
you're not saying the same thing
dull ibex
yes we literally are
dapper crag
???
dull ibex
if you go into a game with bundle both team don't count towards the number
dapper crag
ima ask tofu in DM, this is becoming too confusing
mighty stump
Im
Not interested
In furthering this discussion
I think
I'm just gong
To go our separate ways with our opinions
dapper crag
I just want to clarify 1 thing
mighty stump
What 1 thing
gloomy crescent
Hai chat
dull ibex
Hey leafy
dapper crag
Red confuses me by answering on your behalf
mighty stump
What did Red say
dapper crag
Bundle is 10% and you're looking at enemy team
gloomy crescent
What are you guys on about
dapper crag
So Bundle is 10% to appear in any game if you are not counting your team
dapper crag
Right ?
mighty stump
You expect to see Bundle 10% of the time
dapper crag
On the enemy side. Now if you're a viewer and you look at both sides, can you expect to see Bundle in 1/5 of the games you spectate given there are two teams.
dapper crag
I'm asking tofu or I'll showdown
lofty tartan
Because showdown users know better about usage statistics lmao
lucid rover
Jay you just need to look up probability math you can’t add them
gloomy crescent
I'm concused I'm going then
dull ibex
showdown knows SOOOO much
dull ibex
I'm concused I'm going then
jay thinks bundle being at 10% doubles because of two teams on the field have that mon
gloomy crescent
What bundle
dapper crag
jay thinks bundle being at 10% doubles because of two teams on the field have th...
no I'm asking, that's why I wanted to DM tofu and not ask you
dull ibex
no I'm asking, that's why I wanted to DM tofu and not ask you
this is what you are arguing for
dapper crag
because you don't understand usage stats vs view looking at stats
dull ibex
that isnt how it works
lofty tartan
Each team has to be treated as a separate case. You don't combine their probabilities
dapper crag
You can combine probabilities
dull ibex
NO you can't
dapper crag
yes you can
lofty tartan
That's not how the math behind the statistics works
gloomy crescent
What bundle!
lofty tartan
You can add 15 to each value. Doesn't mean you should.
dull ibex
What bundle!
iron bundle its just an example leafy
dapper crag
This is going nowhere, thanks for trying guys
dull ibex
we are arguing over how usage is calculated
gloomy crescent
I was gonna say iron bundle?
lofty tartan
I mean they explained it correctly.
lofty tartan
They gave you the facts about how the math works and you basically said "nuh uh" and puffed up your chest
dull ibex
But wdym 10%
iron bundle is expected in 10% of games iirc which means there is a 10% chance to see iron bundle in a game either on one team or both
dapper crag
no you don't get the viewer perspective I'm talking about
let's just not go further it's all good
dull ibex
if we count both it would blow up to 20%
gloomy crescent
The last person to say nuh uh was monke
dull ibex
jay said 10% somehow is 1/5 games or whatever
lofty tartan
You don't just add things that don't apply to it. Viewer perspective is not counted. You don't count replays again. You don't treat both teams as a batch case of 20%, or 1/5
gloomy crescent
iron bundle is expected in 10% of games iirc which means there is a 10% chance t...
Okay
dapper crag
jay said 10% somehow is 1/5 games or whatever
no that is not what I said, that is why I wanted to ask tofu and not you
gloomy crescent
I use bundle on my other team
dull ibex
no that is not what I said, that is why I wanted to ask tofu and not you
I can reply to your message my guy
dull ibex
I use bundle on my other team
do you like it?
gloomy crescent
I haven't used it much
gloomy crescent
No ones challenged 😔
dull ibex
Something with 10% usage means you'll see it every game in 5
"Something with 10% usage means you'll see it every game in 5"
dapper crag
With viewer perspective
gloomy crescent
And that things weak as fuck if I use it against random people
dull ibex
viewer perspective isnt counted
lofty tartan
And the games also don't add up together. So you wouldn't effectively see it 1/5, or even 1/10
Each game is an individual case of 10%, but it doesn't mean you meet a bundle once in every ten games because that's not how probabilities work.
gloomy crescent
The only thing holding my team is zoroark
whole ibex
yeah you don't get it ofc
dull ibex
And the games also don't add up together. So you wouldn't effectively see it 1/5...
tbh I got that second part wrong my bad
im wrong here too
gloomy crescent
I'm supposed to tera the zoro but I tera the bax
I like the loaded dice
But what I like is leftovers and snow being set up
I wonder if I could make my team to have grassy terrain
gloomy crescent
Spectator?
lucid rover
10% chance, 2 teams
dull ibex
but this was an argument about usage calculated for showdown
lofty tartan
^
dull ibex
why change the argument randomly to make an irrelevant point?
gloomy crescent
Omg why then
lucid rover
Idk I didn’t read anything until recently so if he changes it I can’t answer. Just answering what’s the chance you see a bundle in a match of 2 teams
dull ibex
all of this stemmed from me saying I dont use usage to do my tierlist fully btw
I said high usage doesnt equate to being better necessarily
lofty tartan
And besides, chances of seeing a team as a spectator is a factor that isn't relevant in usage statistics. Usage statistics only track how much an individual mon is clocked on team and the pertinent info therein
dull ibex
then it turned into this
gloomy crescent
How do you know the usage of iron bundle
dull ibex
pikalytics
lucid rover
And besides, chances of seeing a team as a spectator is a factor that isn't rele...
100% agree
gloomy crescent
dull ibex
or this website https://www.munchstats.com/
gloomy crescent
I used to think valiant was the strongest
gloomy crescent
or this website https://www.munchstats.com/
Oh from there
lofty tartan
dull ibex
also wouldnt mane get bolstered up to 100% at point?
gloomy crescent
Mane Is the most used on my opinion
dull ibex
it is
gloomy crescent
Oh it is
dull ibex
its a little over 50% usage
lofty tartan
It's not an opinion - yeah
dull ibex
an opinion is me thinking iron hands the best pokemon in vgc rn
lofty tartan
But yeah Mane doesn't get 100% chance to appear in a single match just because there are two teams.
gloomy crescent
an opinion is me thinking iron hands the best pokemon in vgc rn
I got rid of mine should I not
lofty tartan
You can always get another
dull ibex
Imo iron hands is fantastic glue
decent offensive, crazy bulky, recovery, AND fake out
lucid rover
It’s the same function I posted above. 50% chance on one team is 75% on either
dull ibex
🤔
alr. tbh I dont understand the math you posted
and im fuzzy on probability as a whole
lofty tartan
It checks out. You don't just add two percentages together, but rate does go up if you factor two cases together.
Realistically for usage stats, all cases are factored individually
gloomy crescent
decent offensive, crazy bulky, recovery, AND fake out
Well I use rillaboom for fake out
dull ibex
thats super goood too
lofty tartan
Trying to determine probability of what you'll see as a spectator in fluid matches is totally separate from usage stats
dapper crag
It’s the same function I posted above. 50% chance on one team is 75% on either
Haha
Thanks
lofty tartan
🙄
mighty stump
Well I had to go do cake shit but the usage stats are never considering thay PoV
So its irrelevant either case either way
dull ibex
so is it just bundle is on 10% of teams?
mighty stump
Im never preparing for a match thinking “im gonna see bundle on either side of the field
lofty tartan
Yes.
dapper crag
prepping for the game was not the root of my question though
I was really curious about usage stats and their impact on the viewer perspective
mighty stump
Well then 1) there was a profound misunderstanding and 2) highly irrelevant because its tailored to players
dull ibex
you phrased it as an assertion imo
lofty tartan
The chance to see an individual thing on a selection of two teams is greater than base usage stats but it does not alter the usage.
It's still 10% in the case of Bundle.
dull ibex
my bad if it was a genuine question I apologize
dapper crag
I did mention viewer perspective a whole bunch
dull ibex
tbf I did try to tell you it doesnt matter to usage
dapper crag
It does matter to me if I'm asking 😉
lofty tartan
Viewer perspective is irrelevant when talking about usage statistics on Munchstats/Pikalytics.
mighty stump
And as a viewer:
- Why would I be watching and gathering information I would never use
lofty tartan
That's why people didn't understand what you were going on about
mighty stump
Only to then compile it from your own perspective
Making it irrelevant to actual hobby executioners
dapper crag
You're not gathering information, you're just watching games and trying to get % of what you can see
out of usage stats
lofty tartan
Those games are such a small percentage of actual games that your control group is too small to get a real picture
dull ibex
this was about munchstats that isnt how it works
lofty tartan
Your results will be wrong
mighty stump
Now im confused
dapper crag
Turns out you can multiply them to some degree
mighty stump
How would watching games not be gathering information
lofty tartan
This guy lol
dapper crag
Usage stats, you're viewing the Mons being used but not actively playing
mighty stump
And thats
dull ibex
is your question about how showdown compiles usage?
gloomy crescent
Now im confused
Welcome to the club
mighty stump
Not gathering information?
dull ibex
what is happening
dapper crag
is your question about how showdown compiles usage?
This I got the discord of someone who does it, I'm gonna ask them personnally
lofty tartan
This is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, my man
dull ibex
This I got the discord of someone who does it, I'm gonna ask them personnally
if that is how showdown compiles then idk man
that makes no sense
charred saddle
is ally switch a prio move? 
dull ibex
yeah
dapper crag
if that is how showdown compiles then idk man
Someone has to code stuff on showdown, this is who I want to ask my questions. The code will contain the answer.
lofty tartan
You're gonna try to bother a dev on Showdown to ask how Pikalytics and Munchstats compiles usage statistics?
gloomy crescent
molten oasis
gloomy crescent
Hey drago
gloomy crescent
https://pokepast.es/2eb1c84fb4496a4f I put a bit of the team together and red fixed it up
molten oasis
Shifu can be adamant
charred saddle
jolly scard 252 speed is a bit too much no?
gloomy crescent
Oh I forgot I haven't changed the mints 💀
dull ibex
btw tofu im gonna not be verbally responsive for a second im going to get food
gloomy crescent
I haven't changed the mints
gloomy crescent
Ahagaggagsgayaays
charred saddle
nvm even with jolly max speed scard urshifu its 240ish
gloomy crescent
molten oasis
You’re learning don’t beat yourself up lol
dull ibex
@mighty stump should I send the Amazon links
mighty stump
No
molten oasis
What?
ashen ridge
Is glimmora any good in competitive?
mighty stump
Man
mighty stump
I engaged in a pointless discussion and now I ruined my rep on VGCtwt
molten oasis
Lol
dull ibex
frfr
lucid rover
You didn’t clarify if you were the spectator or not was the problem
untold tendon
who would be the best sticky web user in scarlet?
charred saddle
my booster mane
lives iron head komoo
with 30% chance 
yeah
sp A boosted mane
standard paonite (i think?)
still a sp Atk boosted flutter
https://pokepast.es/d629ec63f6da41a6
mb shouldve just posted the pokepaste
ill go sleep first, thanks for the stream and game
mighty stump
You didn’t clarify if you were the spectator or not was the problem
Not that deep
Its funny
dull ibex
im b ased
bold geode
keen karma
Got a birthday stuff to do
Happy bday
nocturne holly
My sister’s
W
dapper crag
who would be the best sticky web user in scarlet?
if you still need the answer it's ribombee
untold tendon
if you still need the answer it's ribombee
rhx
dapper crag
np
ashen ridge
Has or will glammora have any impact on competitive play in your guys opinions?
next stump
it definitely had impact on VGC and still is useful on some teams
keen karma
it definitely had impact on VGC and still is useful on some teams
idk what happened but i did not expect dragonite to be so good this gam
like idk why more ppl arent running non paonite teams
it doesnt need pao lol
next stump
inner focus AV dragonite is a beast
bold geode
praying for your end 🙏
Thx babe
bold geode
Good to know you're praying for me
mighty stump
inner focus AV dragonite is a beast
missing AV Dnite
next stump
my only regional day 2 so far was with that gorgeous pokémon
maushold + AV dragonite, just super fang tera blast through everything hahaha
mighty stump
@next stump lemme send you something
Also I bodied Nontaro in a bo3 with it so you know
https://pokepast.es/896ab5f1d81aa2b7 Ive changed the Moon set already but same item
brisk plaza
maushold + AV dragonite, just super fang tera blast through everything hahaha
Terra blast? Not terra normal Espeed? Lol
brisk plaza
I mean its also great for finishing off a prio user but fair loo
I actually run a terra normal extreme speed AV dragonite and it's amazing lol
cerulean arrow
can someone rate my showdown play
ill sent the link to the replay in dms if u wanna rate it i need to hear others opinions
ill also send my team
next stump
Terra blast? Not terra normal Espeed? Lol
I still ran extreme speed but it doesn’t synergize super well with maus
super fang moves after e speed
cerulean arrow
I still ran extreme speed but it doesn’t synergize super well with maus
can you rate my team? ill send it to u
im kinda new to competitive
keen karma
Thats Banded
https://pokepast.es/aae2ce01e5f7e4f3 im running dnite here what do you think of running shifu and clear amulet lando
crude epoch
Can anyone advise a tool to calculate polemons IV?
next stump
can you rate my team? ill send it to u
post it here
next stump
Can anyone advise a tool to calculate polemons IV?
type vgc damage calc into google, the nerdofnow website is great
crude epoch
type vgc damage calc into google, the nerdofnow website is great
Thx mate
cerulean arrow
post it here
karmic temple
Keep forgetting ground moves can’t hit flying types but flying moves can hit ground types 😩😩
mighty stump
There is no way Ursaluna can actually take advantage of the speeds here, and you lose your control when you run into something like Farigiraf or a dark type
Arcanine is essentially a dead slot, 0 pressure output from that thing
and you hvae wasted EVs on Murkrow with Brave Bird thats gong to either break sash or just KO yourself
keen karma
Not really sure what Shifu helps you with
armadd
cerulean arrow
and you hvae wasted EVs on Murkrow with Brave Bird thats gong to either break sa...
oh yeah thats actually kinda true
cerulean arrow
Arcanine is essentially a dead slot, 0 pressure output from that thing
arcanines supposed to be a support, its been pretty helpful when murkrow goes down. i use helpingg hand and population bomb and i kill most things if i hit it
keen karma
although kingambit also might work
but then i dont want to lose to heat wave
oh wait yeah eq
mighty stump
arcanines supposed to be a support, its been pretty helpful when murkrow goes d...
- Your opponent can freely ignore Arcanine and just focus on deleting Maushold, and with the power creep we've had, that's going to be pretty easy
- In that board position of both Arcanine and Maushold, you just lose to Flutter Mane
cerulean arrow
- Your opponent can freely ignore Arcanine and just focus on deleting Maushold, ...
true, flutter mane is a problem
mighty stump
but then i dont want to lose to heat wave
Just tera, and you have bulk anyways
cerulean arrow
ive been trying to find ways around it