Carmilla - Discussion Thread

[velvet prism]

Turns out marking an enemy from far aggros it. That’s lame.

[velvet prism]

Is seductive provocation… bad?

[sturdy salmon]

awfull. Overall, this is one of the worst talents in the game

[velvet prism]

Huh. Does Camila’s Defense build… use Defense items? Seems like the main limiter is blood, not cooldown

[west elk]

It does use them. You just want to have Boiling Blood talent(regenerates health after draining it for some time using an ability). Thanks to this you just ignore blood and focus on flying with defense infinitely, becoming almost immortal.

[sturdy salmon]

I don't really like Boiling Blood in a defensive build. It's best to do a hybrid of a defensive build (primary) with a build for Special (secondary). You need defensive cooldowns first, then preferably at least 1 cooldown or charge of Special

[west elk]

The things is, with boiling blood you have great survivability, do not need to care about blood(except for proccing stuff, like strength, heal, push) and you can focus with your items specifically on defense + as defense doesn't have a corresponding card for the damage, you are free to get more eggs or pivot into another item(for example with mermaid tears this gets stupidly powerful and when you are low on health and can't proc the regen with ability, just one unicorn horn is saving your day) or just get even more cooldown reduction/charges on defense.

[sturdy salmon]

In terms of damage, the hybrid in Special is more profitable. In addition, you do not need many items for defense (3 defense recharges and 1 charge are enough), i.e. you have a huge number of free slots for items. And damage modifiers for it are collected from the total damage, which goes well with the hybrid in Special (Injection, etc.). Otherwise, a pure defensive build copes worse with enemies with armor, and Special helps to turn them over (including bosses)

Personally, I play challenges with the Disease modifier (reducing healing by half). In this mode, this talent does not work and does not fully heal spent health (in addition, it has a bug due to which healing can be unstable)

[sturdy salmon]

In conclusion, I would say this: if you play on a difficulty below Nightmare, you can use Boiling Blood, Unicorn Horn, etc., but if you play on Nightmare and higher, it works much worse than the hybrid in Special. If Boiling Blood is still theoretically possible, then Unicorn Horn should never be taken

[west elk]

Well, playing with modifier might definitely change the way you play and what you pick, though mermaid tears probably would cover that. The way I build her for defense requires 6 talents, which leaves me with just one to fill, not enough to make the special worth it, especially when I am practically not leaving the defense form and special is there to just apply mark and give me enough blood to gain strength from trait at night.

[sturdy salmon]

I don't know what 6 talents you mean. I know the 3 main ones (including the starting one). You have enough talents with a reserve for Go to the throat and Injection

[west elk]

Well, I am playing almost exclusively Nightmare, so I can't agree with that conclusion. Though like I said, the way I build for defense doesn't leave much room for special, so maybe with sacrificing some talents for those from special I could find the build you talk about being good. But I do love to not worry about blood at all, so Boiling Blood is my go to.

[sturdy salmon]

I've been testing Boiling blood and other variations of Carmilla builds a lot, since she's one of my mains. I don't think you've really tested the hybrid in Special, judging by your comments. But if you have, then ok - play as you see fit. Everything can be individual

[west elk]

Dispersion, Sadism, Boiling Blood, Victimization, Aggressive Flock, Angel and Demon. 2 defense focused, crits on bleeding(which is a big source of damage for defense), mark, strength and of course boiling blood.

[west elk]

I played with variations of special, but like I said, I did not try to combine it with defense. When I go for defense I have a specific setup that I like and I am not even sure which of those would I be supposed to sacrifice. Maybe crit on bleeding could be gone. Then you can take Go For The Throat and Injection. But it still let me use Boiling Blood, so what are you taking instead of it? Wild Heart(explosion range)? And what about your survivability then? The beauty of build with boiling blood is that I do not need to wait for my trait to safely use skills. And sure, you can do this without using trait, but then blood cost is very high and you can't really get much in.

[sturdy salmon]

You already take Victimization into rotation and use Special. It's weird not to go for a more complete hybrid. The same Sadism goes well together, because Special crits much more often than Bleeding (given the peculiarities of its triggering)

[sturdy salmon]

The Defense build with a hybrid in Special is one of the two strongest and most stable in the game in my opinion. The same Special also gives invulnerability frames

[west elk]

What is weird about it? It's just for the mark and blood to use trait. The same way I use trait, doesn't mean I should take all trait specific talents. And for critting more often, I disagree. They gain the same crit bonus, while all attacks on bleeding target will get the crit bonus, when for special, only special attack gets the crit bonus. Also it is less consistent, because full bonus is only ast max range for special, while for bledding it's always at max.

[sturdy salmon]

Anyway, play it however you like. But if you haven't tested the hybrid in Special, give it a try. Personally, I've tested a lot of different variations of Carmilla, including Boiling Blood. I don't find this talent viable, especially in co-op

[sturdy salmon]

"And for critting more often. I disagree" - I don't understand how you can disagree, if you have "Go to the throat", then the chance of crit with Special is much higher (especially during the day)

[west elk]

I am not always using this talent, but every time I go for defense. Like I said, I can fly around almost infinitely while staying safe and not caring about blood. I don't see how you could do it in the hybrid, because you would have enough blood for it only with trait active, but not without it.

[west elk]

Sorry about that one, misunderstanding. The bleeding one affects crit damage, not crit rate, so yes, it's easier to crit with special.

[sturdy salmon]

I don't try to fly for a long time, because in my opinion the maximum damage from using one defense is reached in a short period of use (explosion of Dispersion + several bats). That is, I play in this variation with frequent use of Defense/Special/defense/Special. I usually choose the flight time in defense to get a comfortable cooldown of Special

[west elk]

Well, considering you hit enemies also while flying through them and Aggressive Flock continue to build up during that, you can maximize damage with being intangible. It's both safe and reliable, even if it's not the highest hitting option, but it still pack a punch and can easily deal with crowds or focus on one enemy if needed. I might try to play around what you proposed, but again, you did not respond to two of my questions. If you don't take boiling blood, what do you take? And without it, how are you managing survivability?

I know the second thing might not be such important, a lot of characters do not heal or even shield themselves and can be played in a way you just don't get hit, so it's not huge issue, but still nice things to have, especially on a character you can hit yourself.

[sturdy salmon]

My talent set is usually like this: Bat Master, Dispersion, Aggressive flock (usually in Act 2), Go to the throat, Injection, Victimization, Angel and Demon, Sadism. If everything is bad with randomness, then I can take Gust.

As for survivability, I tried to answer above, i.e. I am almost always in invulnerability frames (Defensive or Special), i.e. it is very high. Yes, here you need to understand how these frames work for Special, so it is advisable to attack from a distance (which goes well with Go to the throat)

[west elk]

Well, I can see this working and Go For The Throat for sure works well with Sadism. I doubt it will outshine full defense run for me, as I just have too much fun on that build(my favorite one for her), but I'll give a try to what you proposed. 3 CD reductions and 1 Charge you said, fine, I'll see.

[sturdy salmon]

3 cooldowns for Defense and 1 cooldown or recharge for Special (this is the minimum-comfortable option for me). I never take more than one Extra Charges of Defense (and usually at a later stage). It is clear that there will be many more items in the end and I adjust the flight duration to the circumstances (total recharge time)

[sturdy salmon]

The main thing is to understand how iframes work on Special. Otherwise, there should be no problems. I wish you successful tests and have fun. I think we all understand that the most fun builds are not always the most effective, so all variations are good if they bring you pleasure

Personally, I like flex builds (I call them that), where you do a lot of actions in safety (either from a distance or in invulnerability frames). Carmilla is one of the best in this regard. A similar style can be achieved with many heroes (for example, the same defensive builds with Beowulf, Snow Queen and Melusine)

[west elk]

Might not be the most effective, but I still think it's one of the best builds. It's just versatile to the brim. For damage there are more powerful options, but pure defense build doesn't lack damage. With it you have good map traversal, survivability in both being intangible and having a regen. In my opinion Mark and Strength are so powerful, that they are must be to consider a build powerful, and this one have slot for both of them. Unlike some builds(talking about all characters here) requiring all 7 slots for talents and sometimes even wanting more, for pure defense on Carmilla you just need 6 and have a free slot(Gust is my usual pick there). It's not my favorite just because it's fun, it is powerful. But I generally consider Carmilla one of the best/strongest characters alongside Melusine and Juliet and she can be build in variety of ways. I'd say her attack build is quite lacking early game, but then if you go for dash attack with 4th attack on whip, it's the strongest build out there.

[west elk]

I like to build around specific things, but yes, I like that playstyle too. Carmilla and Melusine are my favorite characters and though I mostly go for power on Melusine, I did play strictly defense focused build too and it was very fun and good, might consider trying it more. Though when I go for power I tend to use defense a lot anyway on Melusine. While for Carmilla her defense build is my go to.

[sturdy salmon]

When evaluating builds, I usually look at both strength and stability. The defense build (pure or hybrid) will always be my favorite build variation with the highest stability and strength. The dash+ultimate build is a bit too late for me to like it a lot. Although on Carmilla I like all builds except Power (when I play solo). In Co-op it is much better, although it starts to sag towards Act 3

[west elk]

The thing with attack build is you can go for anything early, like, whatever suits you best at the moment to clear faster, because all you really need for the full build is just dash attack and cooldown reduction on ultimate and dash cd/charges for items. You just crash everything with it, so even if it is late game, you still can have easy time clearing early game, because you're not tied with what talents you need to pick for the full build. I played a lot recently, mainly with another people and one person in particular. Most of the time he could jump on 1 or 2 games before going to sleep and wanted to just have easy time. He went for Carmilla's whip dash attack all the time when he did not want to sweat. It's just super easy to get this build "online", because you don't need much. The only downside is it's late and you will lack specific items related to other skills that could be useful and you would normally have going for other build. So I would not recommend this build for someone that just hit rank 9 and still doesn't feel good with the character. But if you are doing well with her and doesn't struggle on Nightmare, then it becomes no brainer build.

[sturdy salmon]

I understand that i can take the same Dispersion for the early game, it's just that for me all the builds through the ultimate are a little strange, because my favorite act is 1 and in it, in fact, you will play without a build.

[west elk]

So I finished the run. Sure, it was strong, but after experiencing both, I will stand by opinion that pure defense is better.

First of all, early game was easy, but I sneaked some stuff and got general talents at the beginning, Mark and Strength, relied mostly on Power for this one.

Then the problem with this build is, you disperse both your talents and items and when I started getting skill specific talents, it was for special, but items were for defense, so it did not combine well, which would not be the problem for pure build, as I would focus on one(the character I diverse the most into several abilities and focus on them both evenly is Wukong where I build Power/Special combination). It's not issue on only this character, diverse vs pure has their own strenghts and weaknesses, the thing is how well those skills work without much talents going on for them.

And so, even though I did not get defense specific talent until level 7 and then second on level 9, I did the most with defense, with bleeding specifically.

With how I have to split into different talents and items, I feel the difference between performance on both special and defense is high. I mean, I don't deny you could do much more with the special, but at the same time, I could do much more with defense if I would fly all the time, instead of leaving the defense state all the time.

So yea, it is strong and fun, but not as much as pure defense for me. The thing with special is you do want to have a card for either special or power to get more from it, but you should not on this build, because then defense would be left behind. So I prefer to build specifically around special and focus on special damage(if healing from special) or power damage(if taking starter for explosion). For general damage all around, special just acts as mark and trait starter, not damaging ability. Sure, some power damage comes from special, but I relied on power a lot in first act especially, so a lot of it is from it alone.

Also for the items, I ended up with a lot items for defense, but I was low on rerolls for some choices and got some of them in act 3 without another good choice, with one being in shop before baba yaga. Most of the time I was sitting at 3 CD, 1 charge for Defense and 1 CD for special.

[west elk]

So yea, like I said at the beginning of the conversation. Take Boiling Blood, take those defense items for both cooldown and charges, as much as you want/can and just fly infinitely. You are safe, everything dies, easy peasy.

[sturdy salmon]

Ok, thanks for trying!
For me, you got the defense talents quite late to evaluate the build fully, but in any case, by Act 3 you had it ready. If you like the performance in Act 3 and the final bosses in regular defense more, then why not. Everyone can stay with their own, this is certainly too subjective a game and assessment

[west elk]

The thing is, if I got the defense talents late and it still did overall more in my game, it shows it helped to evaluate the build better. Getting those talents early would only make the disparity bigger. It's not like I stopped using special in act 3, because I've got so many things going for defense. I had talents for special, I had cooldown reduction on it, so I used all what I invested into and special was as much used as it could in act 3, yet still was outperformed. So I can't shake off the feeling that if I could focus on the defense from the beginning, rolling for the talents to get them early and focusing on more items just for it, I could do way more in this game.

[sturdy salmon]

Look, initially I said that we were talking about a Defense build, where Defense is the basis, and Special is a hybrid addition (since it requires few resources to reveal and expand the gameplay). In fact, all three of your main attacking abilities came at the last levels. Special, as I said, is needed to generate blood and additional damage, since a long flight is less effective than more frequent bursts of Dispersion, Special Bites and several bats. I think that a really significant difference is achieved by piloting/execution.
Your build concept (with boiling blood) is simpler from the execution point of view, but from the damage point of view, according to my tests, it loses

[unique flume]

does the spend blood for extra damage talent work if your trait is up?

furious tempest its called

[west elk]

As long as you hold the power for 3 seconds it should trigger.

[unique flume]

i thought its supposed to gradually increase? wot

ok then

i'll check the numbers when i get the chance

[west elk]

It does, sorry, I worded it poorly. The thing is after 3 seconds you have the maximum bonus and normally your blood amount without trait or consuming health won't last so long to get real use of it. This should trigger whenever. Technically I would say that even when draining health, she uses blood, just her own. I can understand where that question is coming for based on how it's described and now I started doubting myself. Even though it says "Consuming BLOOD to fuel POWER[...]" it also says for power that "15% of Health is drained per second to fuel Blood Orb if Carmilla holds no BLOOD". Like I said, I am doubting myself right now, but I am pretty sure the key word is fuel and as long as you channel your power, this talent should increase it's damage.

[unique flume]

im just having doubts because you dont spend blood on abilities while trait is active

[west elk]

At the same time defense says "Holding the action consumes BLOOD to keep this form active for up to 3 second(s)", but even if you use trait or drain your health, you can still hold it to keep the form active for longer. I think this should clear all the doubts.

[unique flume]

yeah ok then

[sleek yoke]

I would like to know what the 'pros' think of Carmilla's starting talents. 🙂

[sturdy salmon]

I'm not a pro, but still this is one of my main heroes with all possible challenges and one of the most played:

1. **Bat master **is the best starting talent. In solo, I always take it, if I don't go to the Power build (and this is one of her worst builds, so I take it almost always). From the point of view of efficiency, fast movement around the map is not compensated by anything else. The ability to steal is also very strong. Gives the ability to consistently (!) completely clear the first map from the point of view of objects without randomness.
   In solo 10 out of 10
   In multiplayer, it is also super strong if you scout. If you do not scout (for example, in random matchmaking), then you can take another talent, because teammates often interfere with the correct use.
   When working in a team 10 out of 10
   When playing with a random team: 5 out of 10 (it all depends on your skill)

2. Blood Rage - a talent for assembling through a pure Power build (without a hybrid in Special). This is what it is used for. In multiplayer, a good option if you are not playing in a team, since it will increase the speed of the starting clear. In solo 6 out of 10. In multiplayer 7.5 out of 10

3. Life Essence - a dubious talent. You can take it for fun builds or for co-op, if you are not playing in Power, but go through Vitality. In solo 4 out of 10. In multiplayer 3 out of 10 (since it is harder to finish off enemies)

4. Life Tap - a bad talent for niche builds. I don't see much point in it, since the amount of blood received for the amount of life sacrificed is insignificant. Complete garbage. 0 out of 10

So, in fact, you have a choice of two working talents, as well as an additional bonus of one fun one (which simply decreases in effectiveness with each difficulty level)

[sleek yoke]

Fantastic~ I was struggling to use the quests consistently, and I didn't like the extra requirements it had to use.

I thought Life Tap could have some interesrting synergies, no? I was thinking like, if she had healing or smth to compensate, then she could have long trait uptime.

I just never spent the time to try it. I've been testing the other three, and I wasn't super sold on any of them. I keep entering combat in Bat Master 😅

[sturdy salmon]

You only enter combat with Bat Master if you are in contact with an enemy. Over time, you will learn not to touch them (although this is not always possible, but almost always).

Life Tap does not have good synergies. You can play through Boiling Blood, Unicorn Horns, etc., but it is weak. Also, it is not like you really need much blood in most builds, so...I just don't see the point in this talent

You can try to make it work or wait for the pros to come and tell you that I am deeply mistaken, but I have not seen a single case of good use of this talent (neither in my experience nor from those I talk to). It is simply ineffective. This talent can be removed from the game and nothing will change for anyone (I think)

[sleek yoke]

Nah, you claim you're not a pro, but you were the person I was hoping would chime in. I trust your opinion 🙂

[west elk]

@sleek yoke I would like to add to what was said here.

Blood Rage is even better for special build, because you always use explosion(with a short delay after biting) from the talent that let you hit with power on special, while in case of power you only deal explosion after releasing it and more often you want to hold it when building around power. Blood Rage works great for both, just it's effect will probably be seen more often on special.

Life Essence is nice, you'll just usually end up better picking Bat Master or Blood Rage. I think if you abuse the game for long enough and want to take a break from stacking coins and eggs, you can take this talent to go for Ogre's Blood item.

For the rest all was said, Bat Master is great and Life Tap is pretty much useless, because all it helps with is having your buff from trait for longer. Giving you blood doesn't matter, because you pay health for it, so you could just hold an ability longer and take damage that way, without the need to click the trait.

[unique flume]

I kinda wish there's incentive to keep trait going as long as possible but angel demon and gust is worthless that way

Maybe make it proc a weaker effect in regular intervals?

[unique flume]

wtf i just crit baba yaga for 26k

i dont understand why her damage increases exponentially

[west elk]

It's just Mass Punishment.

[unique flume]

yeah

crazy damage

[unique flume]

to unlock the hidden outfit can i just ||use bat master and afk for 1 minute or do i have to be in combat||

[west elk]

||You need to have your trait active for 1 minute, not your defense. If you afk with bat master you won't get enough blood to keep the trait going. Normally I'd say Life Tap is meaningless, but it's good for this purpose, though I don't think it will be enough for 1 minute without fighting. It's also quite easy to do accidentally when you just build around special. I remember I did not try to get the skin, it just popped on its own while playing.||

[unique flume]

i see

its trait

ok

[pliant rover]

Hey my friend is thinking of maining carmilla but doesn’t really know how to build her, what are some good builds I can recommend for her?

We’re both new to the game so just looking to beat it on higher difficulties but without modifiers yet

Thought I’d ask some of the better players here lol

[sturdy salmon]

Carmilla has many good builds. Next in order of priority, as I would test them (but all open talents are required): Defense (obvious simple build, but super strong: Bat Master, Dispersion, Aggressive flock), Special (Bat master + Go For The Throat + Victimization), Special + Power (Blood Rage + Go to the throat + injection + Victimization), Ult + Dash (Blood Lash + Cruel Strike + Mass punishment), Power (all profile talents)
All builds can be pumped through Leprechaun Coins + Golden Eggs. Special and Power variations love Balor's Eye and charges

[pliant rover]

Cool thanks!

[frigid gate]

@sturdy salmon injection doesnt work with blood rage

or at least it shouldnt

[sturdy salmon]

Why shouldn't it work?

1. Blood Rage consistently gives +10 to pure damage per quest. This works for all damage.
2. If you do a hybrid Power + Special, then in any case you use Power to the fullest at the early stage of the game. The bonus to hybrid Power works

And whether Blood Rage works with Injection or not doesn't really matter, because Injection is needed for damage to armor and control of small enemies, because target damage with Special (especially in DPS) is always higher and it is more logical in hybrids build to charge up Special, and not Power

[sleek yoke]

Blood Rage's reward of +X% damage on a charged Power doesn't work because Special doesn't charge the Power.

The two talents work in a Power focused (or Power/Special Hybrid) build, but the actual talents's effects don't "work together"

In other words, I agree with you, there just was a misunderstanding 😛

[sturdy salmon]

Blood rage gives POWER explosion damage by +90%, not damage while charging.
Furious Tempest gives damage while charging and is not a starting talent. It does not work with injection

[sleek yoke]

Blood Rage is the starting talent - it requires you to "repeat this action" from the quest, which is charging it for 1 full second.

or have I been misreading it? 😮
-# Edit: Yeah, the wiki says "Repeating this action" - so I'm pretty sure that means Injection can't "repeat the action" to get the bonus damage.

[sturdy salmon]

Sorry, I didn't immediately understand what you were talking about. I mean, Blood Rage doesn't give a bonus to damage during charging, but to explosion damage after a certain charging time. That the bonus to damage from charging is given by another talent

[sleek yoke]

No problem. I am pretty sure the bonus damage to the explosion is what Moskay was referring to, which wouldn't trigger from injection.
-# Thus Moskay says "It doesn't work in the same build"
-# But you reply with "Yeah, it doesn't need to work with injection, it's a hybrid build anyway, be sure to actually use your power, lel."

[frigid gate]

@sturdy salmon not sure we understand each other, so let do the numbers talk. Tagging also @neat agate because I can!

[sturdy salmon]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say with this video. I know that the explosion damage bonus from Blood rage doesn't work with Injection. But when playing as a Special+Power hybrid, this starting talent is usually taken, because its bonuses work within the framework of the hybrid build. I described above what advantages it gives:

1. Bonus +10 to damage (per quest)
2. Bonus to Power damage at early levels
   I never said anywhere that Blood Rage allows you to accelerate the bonus from Power, which is pumped through Injection.

We generally discussed above that Carmilla has two legitimate starting talents: Bat Master and Blood rage. In general, we always take Bat master, except for builds where we actively use Power. In the Special+Power hybrid specifically, it is taken for a stronger early game, but both starting talents are relevant.
If you have a different vision of the choice of starting talent, then you can offer your arguments

[frigid gate]

"I know that the explosion damage bonus from Blood rage doesn't work with Injection."
so you DO know what I meant, then. Even though that was a "btw", sorta offtopic kind of information that I provided.

Speaking of hybrid special+power, it obviously depends on vanilla vs 5neg.

In vanilla going full power is probably always better, dunno how you would wanted to mix it with special, jsut because theres one talent that KINDA benefits from pwoer dmg (injection) doesnt mean its a hybrid. You would always wanted to go full power with balors and that build is slightly slower because you have only one special charge so blood build-up is slow.

In my opinion better approach, if we really want to go a solid hybrid would be skipping balors so you can have as many special charges as possible, and the true hybrid talent in this case with a primary focus should be injection, and the only cheap way of buffin tis dmg comparable to balors without losing charges is nightmare thorn.

I would start by prioritizing raven's beaks for more injection value and fully focus on eggs since klubs Jack of Diamonds are only boosting one.
You dont need to care that much about increased power cdr from thorn since you are not pressing POWER that often anyway, even though with big special CDR you might be.

Prioritizing special cdr (or charges later) means the build would be more special oriented, so you can also benefit from roses which you cant really with power since roses boost you only for 2 seconds, to get that extra rose crit chance/dmg proc, you should also get 7L boots later.

and in my case it doesnt matter what build you play, for me there is only one starting talent, which is bat master...

blood rage only makes sense in vanilla if you really want to see big explosion numbers but even then its not needed, its still barely 2.5 ticks of normal power dmg or in other words 1.25 seconds+-, its not providing ANYTHING for you..

with bat master, especially in challenge runs, you can easily sneak dozen of camps without fighting them, which is huge value especially when you play inflation where you can sneak money camps for free. there are also some camps that you cant really fight especially knight camps on ch3 if you are lacking dmg and even if you can with ENOUGH dmg, its gonna take you insane amount of time... bat master can and will save all of this time for you so you can spend it elsewhere

[sturdy salmon]

"one talent that KINDA benefits from pwoer dmg (injection) doesn't mean its a hybrid"
The Special + Power Hybrid is provided by a full build, which implies that the build can accommodate both talents for Special and talents for Power. That is, this build is usually taken with not very good randomness, since with good randomness, it is almost always more profitable to go to one source of damage.
On Carmilla, I don't see much point in not taking Balor's Eye in this case, since it gives the maximum damage with minimal resources.
For the Hybrid, it is also implied that we take the average randomness and prioritize Raven Effigy from Legendary items

"In vanilla going full power is probably always better" - Carmilla's Power build is the weakest of her existing working builds. At the same time, she has one of the strongest first levels in the game, so Power in this Hybrid is taken for acceleration, so that later, if possible, it can be transferred to Special, but at the same time, in a number of PoIs, Power can work well even in Act 3, so we also pump it up

Well, "7L boots later" is a very strange statement. You never want this item in this build (as well as in pure Special and pure Power builds), it's not worth it.

[sturdy salmon]

"and in my case it doesn't matter what build you play, for me there is only one starting talent, which is bat master..."
It's your choice. In some cases, especially in co-op (especially in random matchmaking), I regularly take Blood Rage

[sturdy salmon]

@frigid gate Anyway, friend, sorry, maybe I'm too rude. I know you're a normal player. I didn't mean to troll you or offend you. I just feel like you didn't check the chat history before you sent your message, so I got upset.

#1288785490266292306 message - here one of the newbies in the game asked about Carmilla's starting talents.
Here I answered literally the same thing as you about Bat Master + some clarifications when Blood rage is taken: #1288785490266292306 message

#1288785490266292306 message - here shortly after another newbie asks about working builds on Carmilla, which I listed. Obviously, we were talking about the vanilla version of the game.

If you said that in hybrid and in general most builds you can always use Bat Master by default, then I would simply agree, because this is in most cases really almost always the best choice, except for a few niche cases. But in vanilla and for a beginner who can't steal, it probably makes sense to use Blood Rage for the starting speed boost.

We can leave the rest to subjective role-playing

As for the challenges, I completed all the challenges I could on Carmilla. And it's true that the starting talent has no alternatives for them

[frigid gate]

in a perfect setup, pure POWER build is BY FAR the highest potential dps build on carmilla, excluding broken mass punishment build (which hopefully will be nerfed because its actually stupid), its just not as consistent compared to other builds because it required setup, thats why it shines mostly in runs with other people, but even then, power builds trait downtime can be partialyl negated with boiling blood and even life tap, which people love to hate for some reason. Life tap is probably the best talent for pure power build and niche ult/impalement build, which is often your best option for toughest neg runs.

7LB was indeed very strange statement, its definitely not my item of choice, the "you should" was not probably the wording I should use. I was mostly referring to niche situations like a special or hybrid build, when you have a lot of roses, it can give you the extra rose proc for extra crit dmg which CAN make a difference, also boost your blood generation from puncture, keeping you in form for longer, and on top of that, makes you WAY safer... in vanilla, you probably dont need it, ofc

[west elk]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you can use your trait while holding power? And if so, Life Tap gives you nothing, because you need to leave power anyway and wait for it to use again and lose the blood you gain from Life Tap, which costs you health. You could just hold you power for longer and lose health that way, instead of using life tap.

[frigid gate]

sadly you cant, and I think you should, that would make the talent a bit more appealing at least

[west elk]

So what makes you think it is the best choice for power build?

[frigid gate]

you can press it before to instantly get 60 blood, works very well also with blood reserve talent especialyl when you play impalement

[frigid gate]

it depends on your build, and how much power CDR you have... if you are done with your POWER, and you run out of blood, you will get your next power charge way faster than your next trait cooldown, pressing one life tap + special already gives you 90 blood, so even if you dont have trait, you have enough blood to hold that power for quite some time, having boiling blood also heals a lot of your HP that you lose from holding power with no blood, back...

life tap is also 5 sec cooldown, if you have at least 3 raven claws, you can pretty much spam the power, so extending your form is pretty important... if you play balors, you have only one special charge at a time, so your only option is either life tap or puncture

[west elk]

That did not convince me. I mean, sure, you can use your blood for ultimate, then get some, pop up trait, use life tap and hold your power. I just think taking any other talent will work better and you just eat the damage from HP drain. I definitely take the 10 damage + explosion damage over Life Tap. But I generally don't like her blood related talents, Blood Reserve and Puncture. I treat her blood and health as a resource that other characters don't have. They just use their abilities and that's it, while Carmilla have the option to keep it for longer using one of those resources. Taking talents just to get more of the less useful resource(because health is better than blood) really isn't appealing.

[frigid gate]

I would still prefer blood rage over life tap just because I am used to it anyway, so I am not really trying to convince you anyway, it really is a matter of preference in this case... I would still say that in most cases probably blood rage is slightly better

[frigid gate]

I also avoid puncture and reserve in any build, even in power, because I dont like them, I rather build up my blood slowly over time with tools that I already have baseline, but if I am really trying to optimize my dps, I think I would go with life tap every time, but again, depends.... mainly on my sources of healing

(every time I am not allowed to pick bat master, that is)

(mainly due to lack of inspiration nonsense)

[sturdy salmon]

"in a perfect setup, pure POWER build is BY FAR the highest potential dps build on carmilla" - Not in this game.
You can come up with a hypothetical situation where this is true, but if you take our Ravenswatch on any Nightmare, then this is not so. I tested all the builds on Carmilla for a long time, because I speedrun game with her and from the point of view of all runs in general, the Special build on vanilla Nightmare gives the highest average DPS, because it gives much more damage to a solo target, which is mathematically more important over the distance of the entire run.
In challenge runs, the Defensive build gives the most damage (which, when converted to the entire run, will give the highest DPS), because it allows you to deal damage safely and quickly scales.
Therefore, your statement is not supported by anything in fact. Mine is supported at least by the fact that the best time on Carmilla in RW speedruns is mine, as well as passing her challenges for 7 modifiers.

[sleek yoke]

-# 😅 Asking questions doesn't make me a "newbie." 😅 Not actually offended because I know you didn't mean it like that, but... yeah. Feels weird to be called that simply because I haven't posted on this Discord until recently.

[sturdy salmon]

Sorry, let's assume I meant newbie not in the game, but in active communication in this Discord server.
Although, I still think that for this game less than 100 hours is a newbie, but I really don't know how many you have

[sleek yoke]

440 hours, though when I posted, I estimate high 300. XD

But you're fine, yes, Newbie on the discord for sure. I agree that even 100 hours is definitely not enough to understand the game.

I also, to be fair, was a Newbie on Carmilla. Barely played her like 5 games before I asked that question. 😛

[west elk]

With so many hours it seems strange, but I have a mate with 200h in the game and they did not play Melusine even once. So yea, I think someone might not be newbie in the game, but still be newbie for the character.

[sleek yoke]

For sure for sure.

I think that's something I love about this game - each character feels so different.

[west elk]

I agree, that's also something that appealed to me in this game. May not have so many different synergies and stuff that some other rougelikes have, but still can make runs differ a lot thanks to characters. I've cleared Nightmare with every talent on each character by now, though I am not that good on some of them. Carmilla is definitely my favorite alongside Melusine, so if I have something to say to help others, it's mostly about them. I am not a part of community for many games, but somehow I liked following threads for Ravenswatch on steam and ended up here, so I am happy to help both newbies and advanced players, though there is not much more to say after Get Clothers! explain things.

[tepid sky]

(Not a jab at you, genuine question).
Does this apply to peeps like myself to almost exclusively play in a 4-man?
When enemies are too tanky for 75% of the game to be killed in 1 hit with bite, and are way more numerous making AOE much much more effective?

I've tried special builds on Camilla as 4 players and it's much more of a struggle.
Arguably TOO easy in solo play by comparison.

Though then, power builds aren't as effective as they can be because bleed doesn't last as long as a good power can, so you can't get good crit up without Scarlet proccing bleed on bosses etc.

[frigid gate]

POWER build is actually stronger in multiplayer after you get your build going for many reasons, just to mention few:

• your teammates can help you position the enemies and take agro so you can hold your orb without interruptions
• they can (or in other words scarlet can) help apply the bleed so even after 5 seconds of holding orb, you can still benefit from talents like saddism or flesh rip

Also if you struggle with POWER/SPECIAL dmg output, just go for balors, epic charges and/or ravens effigy

[tepid sky]

I understand all of these.
I'lll have to keep playing her.

Done all the others, but I simply haven't been able to do Camilla as a 4 man on even the 3rd difficulty let alone highest (maybe even thr 2nd? Probably easily could now, but we like the challenge and no turning back hahaha).
I'm also not playing with other people who play a lot of games. It's for fun, you know?

I can do super well with Power builds all the way until the act 3 boss, who then proceeds to cover the screen and require constant movement.
A distinct lack of health orbs in the fight, and no healing (outside of getting killing blows) in Camilla's kit, makes it rough.
Could make it easier by having some dedicated healing in some other players' kits, and it's worked for us in the past.
Just for some reason, i LOVE playing Camilla and Melusine, but really struggle against the act 3 boss as Cammy each time.

[unique flume]

i feel like bleed doesnt have a lot of synergies with other heroes however

[frigid gate]

the only talent you really need is furious tempest, since its the last multiplier, similar to strength, vulnerable or MARKED (legendary gives you +70% power dmg, if your orb is doing 1000 dmg per second with balors already included, with furious tempest its 1700)

saddism is super strong, its free 100% crit damage, but with enough pearls and balors eye you are oneshotting everything anyway

[tepid sky]

Yeah. I put feedback in about that ages ago, and in the first form that was released for feedback.

There's like..... 6? maybe 7 or 8? ways to get chill. Most characters can proc chill.
A few can do burn.
But bleed gets no love.

[frigid gate]

idk what is 2nd and 3rd difficulty call them by their names to prevent confusion... (adventure, twiligth, darkness, nightmare)

[tepid sky]

Real talk. Without quitting and redoing the first act over and over, how does everyone talk like every run they even FIND Balor's eye, let alone a good 4+ pearls?
I've gone runs where I never saw ONE pearl.

[tepid sky]

I don't remember their names, friends just say the 2,nd, 3rd, etc.
You put them in order so.
3rd would be darkness.

[frigid gate]

idk what you know and dont know, so I will assume you know nothing... in a vanilla nightmare or any other standard difficulty, you always aim for tamatebako from first side quest, that helps you get your items... getting a stack of 5 coins for free reroll helps... after that just get rerolls wherever you can... in an average run, you should never have less than 20-25 rerolls, unless you instantly get all of your items and talents

in chapter 1 you almost always have an optional boss... most people will get hope diamond from him, but you can get tamatebako.. if you have a refugee camp, thats another way of how you can get it

some optional bosses will guarantee a cursed item, easier ones offer you both legendaries and cursed items

usually you have at least 1 optional boss on chapter 2 and 3, you need to be very unlucky to have none

[frigid gate]

you need to be quick on the map and know what POIs you want.. if you dont have time and can take one last POI, dont be surprised you didnt get your pearl if you skip red chest over lets say grimoire... on an average run if things are going well, you should have at least 5-6 pearls (if you dont take power cdr epics) and balors, maybe like 1/8 games you wont find the balors

[tepid sky]

This I also know. It's OK to assume I know nothing.

Pretty often, I'll not pick talents if I get ones I don't want, and just go talentless until I get the act 1 quest and aim for tamatebako. Sometimes, I won't get it after using all rerolls, but that's RNG. Usually you can reliably get it in the first act.
From there, I aim for lep coins.
I don't spend all rerolls trying to get coins though. I've tried, I'll reroll once if there's no coin or egg, but I don't usually have the rerolls to blow.
I think max rerolls I've ever collected in a game by the ending screen is 24. I really don't know how everyone has enough coins to get enough money.
You need money to get coins from wells.
You need coins to get money.
Youtubers I see pulling it off, get great luck and roll coins either straight up or after 1 reroll, leaving me thinking that's the 300th game they played and finally got lucky.

Peeps here talk as if it's normal but I've never had luck like that.

[tepid sky]

Ye, I -KNOW- a big part of our group's power dip if that we don't finish the first map.
We get maybe 1 or 2 red camps in act 1. Aiming for chests but, often whatever we run into first.
We know where all the POIs are and how to path between them efficiently.

If those I played with were power gamers, we'd probably do much better.
But, low-hanging fruit. Trying to see what we can be doing differently that doesn't involve turning a fun game into an assignment.
I'm here for power gaming, but I can't keep my relationship if I try force my GF to 😛

[frigid gate]

thats bad, dont do that... there are some champs or talents where they are not really helping you early game but this can cost you and your team a side quest or precious time on other camps, if you get a good camp clearing talent, that can easily save you 5-10 seconds (hard estimate), multiply this for every standard camp with mobs, especialyl elites, and you will find out you are suddenly unable to full clear the map because of your decision... you can still reroll your build on an altar... taking useless talents is also very good if they are offered as epic/legendary, because if you reroll your build on altair, you cant get lower tier talents, so you are guaranteed to get another legendary talent

[tepid sky]

Yeah, I actually will often take epics etc with the intention to reroll, especially if it'll give me early power spikes that I may not be interested in later.
I'm not always running around talentless 😛 We can also often do the quest early on, so it isn't THAT bad.
But I hear you ❤️

[frigid gate]

relationships are temporary, gamer's glory is eternal!!! choose wisely

[tepid sky]

It's too late for me my friend, tell my story!

[frigid gate]

also quick advice, if you really care only about lets say balors and pearls and nothing else, dont take anything from red chest if it wont offer you pearl... by picking something you dont want, you are ruining your chances of getting a free copy with shapings which you can get in sandman's shop, rapid shaping (150 gold for copy of random item) can also copy the item you didnt wanted

[tepid sky]

Yeah 🙂 I've told my friends this also, and they think it's crazy but, it's good advice.

[sturdy salmon]

I wrote above general theses and recommendations for solo and multiplayer. Power works better in multiplayer, but a well-assembled defense build usually gives more damage, but you need to agree with the team how you will clear points of interest. With good pumping from the second act, Carmilla can clear a full point of interest solo on 4p (and this is one of the cases when splitting the team works).
In general, your tactics greatly depend on the team (composition and roles). Carmilla can take the role of a solo damage dealer or AoE damage. The better the team, the better the solo damage dealer tactic works. The weaker the team and tactics, the better Power works (since you just deal damage to the area). That is, in random matchmaking, it is better to go for a regular Power build

[tepid sky]

Or if they're close to a completion bonus of item stacks and have thre correct shaping at the sandman. Hold off on other chest items of the same rarity until you get it, then TP back for them after.

[sturdy salmon]

Only with Power builds of other characters

[tepid sky]

I've found myself solo-clearing POIs in act 2 and 3 on her with defence, but it doesn't make sense. Only 3 defence talents, and no items to scale it apart from egg etc. Sometimes it feels under powered, sometimes it's clearing an entire POI.
What's the factor I'm probably missing / not noticing?

[frigid gate]

bat master scales your dispersion damage, which is pretty big difference (+70%)

but upgrading your dispersion to legendary always yields more damage overall than upgrading bat master.. also aggresive floch, even though the damage is flat and only the number of bats scaled with upgrade, is super strong early game

[sturdy salmon]

You only need damage and crits. Therefore, the build is very simple to assemble.
As for items, both typical items for shards (diamond, eggs, coins) and Hungry Grass or a build for Vitality work very well if you play without modifiers (Mirror, Ogrova Blood, Philosopher's Stone)
Injection greatly helps to deal damage to armor.

In general, you need to practice solo and determine for yourself the best order of combining Dispersion and Aggressive floack

[frigid gate]

you just need more gold, activate eggs and get hope diamond if you thing you wont be dying, and just boost eggs.. even without crit (which is how I usually play carmilla defense) you will be oneshotting everything later on... you also need gold to get max value out of your excalibur, which can be +90 dmg

[tepid sky]

ahh it scales that too? Good to know 😄

Also I guess, bleed and crit.

One of my fav builds is bat and Razor Claws + Cruel Strike + Heartbreak + Mass Punishment.
It feels too slow to start if I don't get defense talents early though, and I'm battling between rolling for coins or rolling for defense talents.

Just gotta keep at it 😛

[sturdy salmon]

In Act 1, you want to have Legendary Dispersion, Rare Aggressive Floack, the rest is not that important. In Act 3, you'll level it up to Legendary

[unique flume]

which other character? scarlet?

[frigid gate]

you cant have both heartbreak and mass punishment, they are both ult upgrades, but yes mass punishment is the strongest build in the game in terms of seeing the highest possible hit

[frigid gate]

pearl activation effect.. includes bleed

doesnt mattr on what champ

[tepid sky]

Ohh my bad, got the names mixed up.
I mean Mistress Of Pain + Mass Punishment.

[sturdy salmon]

Any character with a Power charge set. Because they get a damage bonus for bleeding on an enemy

[tepid sky]

I'm lost.
Is there an innate part of blead that says that any POWER will deal additional damage?

[frigid gate]

mistress of pain is also ult ugprade

[sturdy salmon]

I thought it was Aladdin's Power. I think he holds the record

[frigid gate]

@tepid sky read activation set bonus effect

[tepid sky]

Well, in fear of getting it wrong a 3rd time cause it's late here and I can't see straight.
Her 2nd ult 😛 I forget it's name, but I'm sure you know what I am referring to, since you understand with Mass Punishment.

[sturdy salmon]

This is not a bleeding bonus. This is a set bonus for items that give a charge to Power (Flaming Pearl). Their set bonus gives additional damage for each status on the enemy (including bleeding)

[frigid gate]

I mean sure if we want to include aladin's broken ahh wish build, but without this (what I consider game breaking mechanic) the baseline max dmg you can get is mass punishment

[tepid sky]

Ye ❤️
We're DEFINITELY not at the point where any decisions we make can be based on getting ANY set bonuses. We're working on it though.
We actually celebrate post game whenever anyone gets more than one set bonus of any kind, out of the 4 of us.

[frigid gate]

rerolls, rerolls, rerolls... from grimoires, refugee camps, shop, horn of plenty, leprechaun coins, green wishing well, altairs, ...

[tepid sky]

This is probably more of an exaggeration these days, I think we do get set bonuses regularly enough now. I know I do, but I play differently to the others and arguably lean too much into items eatly knowing I'll get talents to legendary in act 3 later.

[sturdy salmon]

It seems like a normal mechanic with its pros and cons. In challenges it doesn't work very well at all
But ok, this is not the place to discuss Aladdin

[tepid sky]

Believe me, we do ❤️
Though not always from Grimoires. It depends on how many coins we currently have.

Also, we've agreed as a group that if we play a roguelike and brute force it into giving us what we want instead of what we got, we shouldn't be playing a roguelike 😛
Half the fun is embracing what you were given, even if it wasn't ideal.
Knowing full well that we may never do challenge runs effectively etc.

[frigid gate]

hero was not designed to be able to create a bank out of nowhere, it just turned that way.. and remained that way even after multiple indirect nerfs to his money printing scheme.... the last thing I can say to that is I hope it will get nerfed again, this time properly! and so he gets buffed elsewhere

[frigid gate]

I mean.. the roguelike is literally designed in a way where it encourages you to use reroll... its like pointing to some very specific aspect of the game and saying THIS ACTUALLY ISNT ROGUELIKE FOR US... its like saying that using what games gives us feels wrong... stop taking talents then... stop picking items.... very similar logic 🙂

what I am trying to say is there is no baseline for "what roguelike is"

[unique flume]

ah right

[tepid sky]

Everyone plays how they want ❤️ the glory of games

[tepid sky]

Though, our feelings on this is that, yes, rerolls are core. You don't want to be screwed by RNG.
Though it isn't (in only our opinions) the intention to bypass RNG entirely.

For example, there's a roguelike game where it turns out the absolute best way to play is to sell everything and buy what you want from the shop (which sells everything, no RNG).
And we refuse to play that way.

At no point would I want to say that rerolls shouldn't be part of the game or used at all. We still try get as many rerolls as we can, because we want to stand a chance of putting together something cohesive.
Being able to pull off the build you decided you wanted to do before loading into the game, flawlessly, is going too far in our opinions.
Possibly OK to be able to pull it off by the end of the game, by pivoting etc. Which is all available here, like with the shrine. Just not forcing it to give you what you wanted in act 1.

Again though, different people play and think differently. And some people enjoy being optimal, some people like embracing randomness and picking the first option in any selection! It's all good ❤️

[humble tangle]

since defense requires so little talents to get going, what other talents/build do you like to hybrid it with?

[sturdy salmon]

I prefer Hybrid in Special (both are short on talents). You can also take support talents (Angel and Demon; you can also take Boiling Blood if you're playing without modifiers)

[zinc comet]

I like to combine it with cruel strike (blood whip ult into mass punishment later). Cool down and charges on your defence will give you more cruel strikes, and you can also take some dash objects later

Seven leagues are also very strong with this set up. Dash, whip, defence, whip, repeat

[humble tangle]

yeah I was wondering what ults people liked picking too just unlocked her 2nd one

[sturdy salmon]

This may be a matter of preference. I simply prefer the first ultimate because it activates faster and allows the hero to spend more time in iframes. Plus, in challenges, it's sometimes handy for stealing gold over walls (especially in Act III) or dealing stagger damage (something Carmilla isn't very good at)

[zinc comet]

yeah first ult is good for burst damage generally too, but I prefer taking whip on the assumption that I will probably see cruel strike at some point in my run. I think whip fills a hole in her kit generally (stagger) whereas the damage from the first ult, while nice, isn't really necessary since her damage is so high as it is

plus in general I just favour dash oriented builds in this game and whip ult enables that in carmilla

[wary pivot]

What does the optimal defense build look like talent wise?

[frigid gate]

core is bat master, dispersion and aggressive floch but primarily dispersion and bat master...

optional talents are:

• victimization
• sadism
• angel and demon

helpful talents that can help you with clear speeds and are worth taking early:

• injection
• furious tempest
• gust

everything else can be helpful and can define your playstyle but is not necessary per se

[zinc comet]

imo currently the optimal defence build should pivot into mass punishment late game just because both builds involve stacking damage multiplier and defence cdr gives you more cruel strikes

and mass punishment will outdamage both dispersion and aggressive flock

[trim compass]

hxo shoukld i play carmilla for my next game ?

[tardy pewter]

Hello does someone now if furious tempest work during trait ? Because power doesn't consume blood (it's the trait) so to my understanding it shouldn't work ?

[frigid gate]

yes it works, theres audio cue for it even, you can hear high-pitched noise when tempest is fully charged, changes visually as well

[tardy pewter]

I blind and deaf it seems ! Explain why I die so many times ...

Thx !

[frigid gate]

just check the numbers, its fairly easy to test by yourself

[high briar]

I started the nightmare boss fight immediately by flying over with Carmilla.
Got to level 4, 950 gold, 5 relics with 2 being legendary.
Boss fight was very tight though, however Carmilla is especially well suited for it

[sturdy salmon]

By the way, I feel like Carmilla was nerfed in the patch due to the bleeding bug fix. If anyone else feels the same way, let me know. The core of the issue was that bleed damage varied depending on the stack order. It seems stable now, but at a minimum compared to previous values

[frigid gate]

what does that mean?

[sturdy salmon]

Previously, bleed damage varied depending on the stacking order. For example, "Dispersion/Protection/Dispersion" or "Protection/Dispersion/Dispersion" resulted in different total damage

[frigid gate]

interesting.. how specifically?

[sturdy salmon]

1. The first bleed is applied number of stucks (Y) and dmg size (X)
2. Then other bleed source increases the total duration (Y+P) and size of dmg (X+Z)
3. After the end of the first bleed the dmg size isnt returns to the value of X and was X+Z till the end of both bleed stacks

That is, in some cases it caused more damage than it should have

There was a similar bug with regeneration, but I didn't test it again, and the bleeding was supposedly fixed and the damage dropped

[frigid gate]

does that mean you could stack dispersion tick dmg infinitely?

[sturdy salmon]

I don't know, we were testing three procs for different types of effects and their order back then. The only issues were with bleed and regeneration. The rest worked correctly. I don't know what happened after three procs, but now the bleed doesn't stack as much and it seems like the damage has dropped, which is mostly noticeable only on bosses

@frigid gate I don't save videos about bleeding, but here are three about regeneration. The principle was roughly the same

[frigid gate]

lol

[silent token]

Very little changed imo. Bleed was never a big part of Carmilia kit, unless hitting a very early dispersion with an epic+ rarity.

[sturdy salmon]

With a defensive build, the difference actually feels noticeable. Especially since it's her strongest build, in my opinion

Although, the difference may not be so noticeable to you, since I usually test in challenges where such a difference matters

[silent token]

If somebody ever wondered what was the cd of spcecial with 12 ravenbeak, there it is 😄

[frigid gate]

1 - (1 - 0.25)^number_of_items (+ some weird rounding)

[native chasm]

which starting trait do u guys recomend with carmila? neither feels too strong and the stealth one feels too cheese for me

[silent token]

Stealth one is by far her best trait sadly.

All other traits could be shown as legendary, and stealth common, the best play would still go for stealth.

I do think life tap has the most potential to become good/build around trait when they'll do a balance/rework pass at her non-working talents.

[frigid gate]

as has been said bat master is a go to, if you dont want to cheese with it then just dont, easy... blood rage is a good early to mid game talent in any build as well but especially in power build...

[sturdy salmon]

Bat master is super strong. Blood rage is ok. Life Essence just doesn't fit the meta very well (but it's worth picking for fun). Life Tap is garbage

[native chasm]

this answers are kind of depressing

[zinc comet]

For what it's worth you don't have to cheese objectives with bat master for it to be an effective starting talent. You can just use it for the extra defence damage and traversing the map faster. It's still good without sneaking POIs

[cosmic zinc]

I saw on Reddit there used to be a FPS related bug which caused Boiling Blood to not proc consistently. I searched this Discord and didn't find a mention of it but it's happening to me now. I play on 300 fps with no Vsync - does anyone know if there is an easy solution?

[lusty crest]

And after picking bar master, you usually go full bat build or another ?

[frigid gate]

you can go any build, its not build-dependent but it does boosts dispersion damage (not aggressive floch damage though)

[charred carbon]

Guys which carmilla build can solo nightmare?

[frigid gate]

Every build easily.. on every champ, not just carmilla .. its not really about builds

Defense is the easiest and safest one

[charred carbon]

Maybe skill issue then cus I cant even clear twilight haha

[paper ivy]

My short tips for Carmilla would be

• Low blood? Engage with special, and use it while traveling even if you don't plan fighting the monster.
• After engaging with special, auto until enemies force you to reposition. This is good time to use defense.
• Next time you are forced to reposition you won't have defense. This is when you disengage, activate your trait and do long channel of your Power. Or use blood if trait is not up. Ideally you align your trait and power.
• When blood is about to run out you either prolong the trait with special or let it run out and start accumulating again.

[zinc comet]

something I like to do (particularly in chapter 1 where power is a more relevant ability) is to fill up my blood, then use trait, then defence around in the middle of the group of enemies to bait out their attacks, then create distance and power

as a bonus this combos well with flesh rip and sadism since the enemies are bleeding

but it helps to make sure enemy attacks are on cooldown so you don't get interrupted during your power

[charred carbon]

Tysm !

[charred carbon]

Will try this out too thank you

[silent token]

Cruel strike mass punishment. Still stupid as ever.

Shit items but still did insanely well

[frigid gate]

thats normal.. it takes time to learn enemy patterns.. and learn that you are not supposed to fight the enemy camps in the middle of the whole enemy group without moving...

[silent token]

Special ulti split 👀

[crisp carbon]

Okay, the last character I feel I don't understand; how should I be playing Carmilla on nightmare?

I mostly got through darkness by going for the special health drain, but I'm struggling to figure out what I should be going for on nightmare

[silent token]

Bat master, infinite stealth, sneak all chests. Those you can't, you fight. Get effective exp when you see huge chunks of enemies and blast them in one go with power.
If below 25% hp, search for healing fountain.
For epic, focus on special mainly if you don't hit an early cruel strike. Else, you can go dash/ulti if you have it with whip (then mass punishment on 10). If you hit dispersion, you can focus on defense cooldown.
Never take power CD, unless you see some blank items like fairy dust or unicorn next to it and you have no reroll left.
Power charge are okay if you are looking for balor's eye. Special cooldown + power charge with the injection talent is one of the strongest setup on Carmilia that can hit early as mid act 2.
Marked, dispersion and +crit dmg on blooded enemies are always good to take no matter the build. Any trait related talents are fine since it's more action economy for free. Furious tempest is also neat for an early-mid game spike (but you should never pick it post ultimate). Some talents like onslaught are fine at epic+.
Blood reserve is cool if you go first ultimate.
Talent that are straight up bad are boiling blood, seductive provocation, puncture and wild heart. You never pick them unless they are legendary for exca food and you run short on rerolls.
Agressive flock is a trap if you play with Bat Master. You can get out of agro super fast with BM but agressive flock makes it impossible to do. It's also overall less dps to stay in defense than spamming special or channeling power at any point of the game.
Razor claws should only be picked at rare+ and only if you have crit related talent on blooded enemies. It's better with onslaught but onslaught is not great so it's not a great talent overall.
Injection and go for the throat are extra action economy so they're good to take no matter what (in a special setup, which you should always go for).

[crisp carbon]

Definitely agree on injection; got it as my first skill last run, and it's the first time on Carmilla I've felt powerful in act one :D

Honestly think that run could have gotten further if I'd found any armour, but I was a one hit kill Vs the second boss :(

I'll give bat master a go; I find controlling the stealth bats... difficult? But I'll see if I can learn

[silent token]

It's an acquired taste, but once you master it, it'll buy you an extra 3 minutes in each act. Time is the most precious currency in ravenwatch.

[crisp carbon]

How is the blood lash ultimate? I've only picked it once, and i found the timings were getting me hit too often, but I maybe should learn how to use it properly

[zinc comet]

disagree on aggressive flock being a trap with bat master. I always play defence focused carmilla and aggressive flock is an incredible carry talent until you get dispersion, it just requires investment (you want to get the talent to legendary asap). the bats only come out when you're in combat, you barely lose any time at all you just wait an extra second while running away to exit combat before starting your defence. it's also incredibly safe damage because you're intangible the entire time

[zinc comet]

blood lash is an incredible ultimate but only if you're playing around cruel strike

otherwise the damage is mediocre and the cooldown is too long. it doesn't really offer much to your kit beyond slightly better stagger than your other abilities unless it's paired with cruel strike and you save all of your whips specifcally after dashes/defence to get the final combo attack

my carmilla advice is basically just play around your defence cooldown and try to get dispersion and you will win. dispersion+cruel strike is her best talent combination. more defence cooldown = more cruel strikes + more bleed from dispersion. pair with whip ultimate for her best stagger option. dash -> whip -> defence -> whip -> repeat. never whip without cruel strike active to make the most out of the ult

then at level 10 you take mass punishment and with cruel strike everything dies instantly. by far the strongest pairing in her kit and building around defence cooldown sets you up for it

[crisp carbon]

Thanks! I'll give it a go.

And read up on when to take crit, too; I've mostly ended up using consumables for armour/stars lately

[sturdy salmon]

By the way, Aggressive flock gives more damage to a single target than dispersion. The talent is simply not that good in multiplayer due to the difficulty of using it properly (effective)

[frigid gate]

thats not true, floch ix 4x10 dmg per second, dispersion is 105 aoe... floch only scales from base dmg while dispersion scales form bat master, so even if you hold defense for whole duration dispersion is still doing more damage to a single target... and if you assume its more because you can hold defense for whole duration, if you instantly explode with dispersion you are not AFK for the nexts 2 seconds you are doing some attacks in the meantime so overall dps is way higher with dispersion

[sturdy salmon]

You can check on the first boss (in downed phase) with fully upgraded talents how much dispersion will do per 1 cast and how much a full Aggressive flock will do

You can even compare it to a full lying phase without items

I don't mind admitting I'm wrong if you show me your argument

[frigid gate]

if you are doing more damage that would either be a bug, where one bat can pierce one target multiple times, or its simply coming from your defense damage

[sturdy salmon]

How do you calculate the damage from Aggressive flock?
Even at the basic level (in theory), we have a 3-second cast every 0.5 seconds for 26 damage per cast of one projectile. 6 x 26 = 156 damage.
Although I mainly evaluate by damage per boss's HP bar, and not by raw numbers

[frigid gate]

I read the description of the talent

• you said single target so its not that hard

bat is doing 10 dmg flat

floch is other sources so doesnt scale from abt master, dispersion does

[sturdy salmon]

So, your Dispersion came out to be 105 damage (though mine was different, but that's beside the point). My Aggressive Flock base damage is 156 on a single target. Your numbers are different?

[frigid gate]

I am in the game right now

this is what it says, its just description in the menu

we are talking talent value here, not full build.. theoretically speaking dispersion (as a talent) is more damage to single target than AF

for a camp clear, weirdly enough I would still preffer AF over dispersion even with bat master

due to pierce and raw defense damage

[frigid gate]

I have no idea how you came to 156, I just did 4x10dmgx3sec = 120dmg

[sturdy salmon]

Actually, I was watching an old recording, so I'm mistaken about 156.

Now i just logged into the game.

At level 2, Dispersion deals 92 damage at base rarity (+bat master)
Agressive Flock lvl 2 deals 90 damage (+bat master)

At Legendary, Variance (at base rarity) deals 162 damage (without rounding)
At Legendary, Aggressive Flock deals 180 damage (without rounding)

Bat Master improves both Aggressive Flock and Dispersion

There are 16 here, because the bat master is rare.

[frigid gate]

was this changed or something? coz I am pretty sure aggressive floch was counted as other sources

[sturdy salmon]

But I'm serious. If you want, you can test how much dispersion and Aggressive flock will do on a downed boss.
I tested it in May, and it definitely improved from the starting talent

With similar leveling and items with dispersion, I couldn’t kill the boss at level 2 in 1 phase, but with an aggressive flock I could

[frigid gate]

as I said I was only talking about talent value nt the whole build value, otherwise I agree with floch... since dispersion wants oyu to blow up immediately while with AF you want to hold it for whole duration and because of that you can hit boss with defense multiple times... so its not JUST floch dmg its defense dmg

but since AF seemingly also scales from bat master somehow, AF might be better overall in all scenarios

[crisp carbon]

Okay. I'm converted, I stole so many chests and eyes

Who even needs to fight

Incredibly fun play style, turns it into a stealth game

[zinc comet]

This is valid. I take stars of fate as priority over everything and armour is a great choice too if you feel you need it. Personally I ignore it as a stat in base nightmare because I don't, but in challenges I prioritise it so I think your current approach is completely fine

[zinc comet]

I think I still prefer dispersion because it doesn't require blood and makes better use of your defence cooldown while also having better synergy with other talents (namely cruel strike). You can't always do a full aggressive flock either so having it as your primary damage dealing talent does have some downsides that I don't feel with dispersion

[frigid gate]

one advantage of dispersion is also you can apply the dot while enemy is still staggered and has no armor, once he regains the armor dot is still ticking for the same amount

[brisk nova]

Hey can someone clarify: is Blood Lash truly an ATTACK, therefore its affected by Ace of Spades?

Also, the ability says, "Next 12 attacks strike in a large area, with the combo overall dealing a total of 140 damage". This wording is really bad. What is the "combo" being referred to? And does the 140 scale with attack damage or is it consdered ultimate damage?

[zinc comet]

Blood lash does not benefit from ace of spades. The combo refers to the standard series of attacks where the final attack is much stronger

The ultimate is much stronger if you have the talent cruel strike since it gives you your attack finisher after a dash. It means you can save all your whips for after defence/dash and have them all as attack finishers rather than wasting most of them getting to your finisher

[brisk nova]

Thanks.
So they call it an attack and it's not a "real" attack. 🙄

[frigid gate]

Triggered by attack.. not an attack dmg

[light plaza]

Another question about CArmillas weird wordings:
Lifetab says that you use it by using the trait again, but doesnt trigger any other synergies with her trait talent upgrades? Is that intentional?

[paper ivy]

No idea. Would be nice if it did trigger Gust. Not sure if any other talents would interact with it. Maybe Angel&Demon but I don't remember the exact wording on it.

[light plaza]

Yea, atleast triggering Gust would make it feel more like a "build" imo.

Personally I think Carmilla has the most confusing wordings with one Ult saying Attack despite not counting as Attacks for her talents and the same with Life tab.

Wordings or interactions should be changed.

(personally I think a compromise would be that Angel&Demon and Gust only trigger at half strength from Life Tab.)

[crisp surge]

I like that idea, I hate gust because of how unspammable and short ranged it is, and I really don't want to think "need to use gust right" before clicking trait most of the time.

But lifetap reproccing angle and demon even if "halfed" would still probably be too crazy xD.

Maybe just make it reproc half gust is fair lol..I think gust is her most decent stagger damage so that alone would make considering choosing lifetap, since her stagger damage is so weak in general - maybe.

btw wow Carmilla has the most comments out of all of the heroes, interesting LOL.

[silent token]

Loving the gust

Insta clear shitters in grimoire and keys

[blazing iron]

"New effect: Using DASH without specifying a move direction makes Carmilla seduce up to 2 non-boss enemies in front of her, applying WEAKENED and VULNERABLE to them for 6 seconds"

lets all live

[frigid gate]

https://tenor.com/view/same-gif-8650053

[strange arrow]

Yeah, that seems wonky. All they had to do to make it workable (not great though) is to allow it to proc while channeling power orbs. It would still have been a niche pick, but you could've stacked it onto an existing strategy. This is another one of those ideas that is antithetical to the concept of the game. The first iteration wanted you to do nothing near enemies - a tall ask in a timed run game that can result in death pretty fast. This new iteration wants you to not control where you are placing the character. So, yeah, agree with @frigid gate - same, but different, but same.

[cosmic meadow]

Just completed a run with it and didn't use it at ALL. I hope they change it again, maybe triggering on all dashes or on TRAIT.

Honestly I prefer the old version, even if it was a bad talent, it triggered sometimes.

[strange arrow]

Yeah, I'd be interested to understand their point of view on why this talent has been so bad for so long and gets a milquetoast rework.

[wraith hearth]

one of the main issues it has is also that it targets in a cone in front of her instead of a 180° angle in front of her so even getting it to hit either requires you to hit into the direction or finicky work around with the movement

[spice raven]

it seems better, since you can combo provocation->cruel strike->defense->cruel strike->repeat. you can really feel the vulnerable effect. and it is very spamable. however, cone range and procing needed to be done without specifiying direction makes it messy. additionally, getting used to this playstyle makes you automatically do it on bosses, which it is not affecting. it seems somewhat useable but still not a good talent. and still eats your dash, so you have to rely on defense to escape after animation

[wraith hearth]

it is better but its still very awkward to play around due to loss of movement options and awkward targetting

[jovial fossil]

Did a run with it yesterday evening where I used it to set up huge Go for the Throat hits. It coming out faster and more often is nice but the input is really fussy

it feels like a step in the right direction and doesn't feel quite as bad to play with now, but it's still not a good talent

[frigid gate]

Updated my DEFENSE build based on some new findings and testing, if anyone is interested

https://buildmaker.ravenswatch.com/build/6975415687a1416cdf3db5eb

[fiery garnet]

I think voodoo doll is a little redundant though

I agree that carmilla lacks stagger damage

But its not that bad in a single target

Special does decent stagger

And if you have high damage stat

enemies are dying regardless if you have 5 voodoo dolls or not

I can assure you if you had 5 additional moonstones instead of voodoo dolls it would be much better

[frigid gate]

"ideal" defense build

[frigid gate]

on no-stagger enemies yes, on elites and especially double shield bosses, no

[fiery garnet]

idk you are doing something wrong then

never had problems with stagger on single target with carmilla

all you have to do is to have charges/cooldowns on special

and both of this you need regardless of your build

because special is best way to build blood

She does around 15% of stagger bar per special

on quest bosses at least

[frigid gate]

you play mostly solo, right?

[fiery garnet]

Ok I always forget people actually play multiplayer in this game

my bad

[frigid gate]

yeah.. thats VERY bad on 8 second cooldown... SINGLE TARGET.. also you are missing the point, build is about defense, not "the best, most optimized possible carmilla build" you can make.... I tried to talk a bit specifically about pure defense

[frigid gate]

I think the difference between stagger bars in terms of increase is 66% between solo and duo... it keeps increasing the more players you have in your team.. 4man therefore being the worst

[fiery garnet]

I know the scalling

I might be biased

Just dont think voo doo doll is item you want to focus on

I've never tried it

both before and after update

dont even know how much difference collection makes

but in solo thats definetely redundant

for multiplayer I can see it being useful

[frigid gate]

lets do the quick mafs here regarding voodoo doll...
assume you do 1000 dmg... with 5 dolls, on a double shield (75% damage reduction) enemy, you do 700*0,25 + 300 dmg = 475 dmg.. without voodoo doll, thats 1000*0,25 = 250 dmg, so voodoo doll dmg increase to double shield enemies is +137,5%.. the enemy usually dies BEFORE you can staggeer then.. with full defense build, you dont even have to press your power to raise the stagger bar, you just fly around completely safe, and stuff just dies

the damage increase on bosses with doll is eve higher due to it giving you +5% boss dmg

[fiery garnet]

your calculation is not really correct

[frigid gate]

most of the time, you are losing fighting bosses, either on side quests, optional or nightmares.... voodoo doll saves you time in such cases (yes, you are losing some time on normal camps, but not much)

[fiery garnet]

this 5 dolls could have been 5 more moonstones

which basically in most cases doubles your damage

with 10 moonstone you wont deal 1000

it would be 2000

I played defense build like today and I also wasnt pressing power after like chapter 1

Like with these stats any enemy dies in less than a second

[frigid gate]

I am not disagreeing.. I am jsut wondering how does it relates to my "ideal" defense build

in my build, you can get only 1/3 of the items and still giga carry

by "ideal" I mean, you have good map rng and can get as many items as possible...

I am not saying you need it all to win the game

[fiery garnet]

my only complaint for your build is voo doo doll

[frigid gate]

whats the correct one

[fiery garnet]

.

I meant that you are just taking voo doo dolls out of equation

[frigid gate]

hey listen... I was a nonbeliever as well... until I tried it... its one of those cases when on a paper it doesnt makes sense, and I am even mentioning in the guide you can pick ANY OTHER common item,its not a build built on voodoo doll, you can go horns of plenty for crit, you can go dreamcatcher, anything else

[fiery garnet]

I'll try voo doo doll solo

with carmilla defense

so my critique would be based on actual experience

and not biased

because right know im really biased

[frigid gate]

I dont really play solo.. I play mostly 4man... that build works the best here.. and I mostly roam solo, unless we fight truly hard camps.. solo only neg mods

[fiery garnet]

for me the only existing common items are withered rose, horn of plenty and maybe moonstone

defense builds are just really cool on most characters

if Im playing like special/power builds

the only common item I could take would be horn of plenty

other commons just dont exist

[frigid gate]

if you asked me to paly hyper optimally, I would start with bunch of horns of plenty, and went into moonstone.... I am also not saying voodoo is superior to all of these, its jsut what I based the build upon... its an alternate way of playing the champ and is complimented with everything else in the build.. you ahve enough damage to kill the small creep and now, you have enough dmg and crit dmg to kill elites before staggering them, which is something you cant really do properly with defense build.... if I wanted to make giga dmg defense build, I would have made it, and maybe even my PWOER would be doing more dmg than DEFENSE in MY build

[fiery garnet]

Also if this build is meant for multiplayer, I think It would be good to mention it on the build

[frigid gate]

which is something that happens to me very often when I play 4man vanilal nightmare, I play full defense build but somehow its SPECIAL doign the most massive hits

[frigid gate]

ur right, but its not really... it just works better in multiplayer, its not weak in singleplayer

[fiery garnet]

Carmilla still feels like "unfinished" character for me

something about her just doesnt feel right

[frigid gate]

I agree but idk why.... I feel like some talents are a litlle too artificially made, in a haste, and she misses a lot of other important talents.. like for SPECIAL or something related to her blood

[fiery garnet]

she stands out among the others more than Merlin which is dlc character

its probably talents

stagger issue is probably on the list why she feels weird

talents for sure

some of them are just straight up bad that you will not want them in any situation

Maybe the problem is in special really

since imo to play her optimally you always want cd/charges on special

regardless of build

because of this ijection feels like must take in any build

[frigid gate]

one of many issues for me is the strange synergy between some abilities/talents, like "flesh rip".. a POWER talent that requires enemy to bleed... liek how am I suppose to benefit from this when I cant apply bleed while orbing? I rely on scarlet, not also on merlin but it doesnt make it better.. I want full synergy between flesh rip + furious tempest, but its not possible...

[fiery garnet]

and because so many talents are not usable the injection doesn't even compete to have a place in build

[frigid gate]

also, injection not benefiting from blodo rage, makes the already not that good starting talent even worse

[fiery garnet]

I always take bat master

its insane talent in solo

even if do power build

its just not worth to take blood rage

[frigid gate]

SPECIAL and hybrid special builds are the strongest by far, mainly because of the balors potential, extra iframes, blood generation, everything.... but you can make similarly powerfull POWER build as well, its jsut harder to operate... and has more potential dps because furious tempest is last mulriplier

[fiery garnet]

In solo I dont think you really have options for starting talents

its just bat master

Mass Punishment build is probably her most unique build

struggles early but the pay off is worth it

I have to play it again because of raven eye change

Or even Heartbreak build

[frigid gate]

its not... orb does 80 dps, explosion 40.. with rage (legendary) its almost 100, so basically like holding your orb for 1.25 seconds.. its SLIGHTLY more dps an ONLY while orbing, which you are not doign that often

once you get furious tempest, you WANT to hold your orb for as long as possible, therefore blood rage loses value.. but does quite nice stagger at least

[fiery garnet]

the invis part of bat master is just wasted in multiplayer

unless you are playing defense build there is no reason to take it

and second best option is blood rage

I just dont understand why they dont make life tap retrigger trait related talents

This talent is useless and worthless

I still dont have nightmare badge with this talent just because its useless

Just increase cooldown of life tap to like 8-10 seconds

and It wont be really broken

[frigid gate]

thats something someone NOT playing multiplayer would say I have something over 800+ hours just on carmilla most of it in multiplayer, I cant emphasise how much of a value this talent brings to the table on multiplayer, especialyl when you can operate bat master

[fiery garnet]

Last time I played 4 people lobby

the amount of enemies on the map just doesnt allow to properly use it

even in solo I sometimes touch enemies just because there is not enough space between them

[frigid gate]

you are the one who is doing the scouting all the time, if not you its scarlet if she is present.. by the time my 3man team finishes 3 POIs, I am solo "finishing" 2-4 depending on the map... meaning, I can steal eyes, money shards, getting them all the teleports very quickly, which means they can better decide where to go as a next POI

thats why you need to learn new tricks which work only in multiplayer

[fiery garnet]

I would really like to see how to sneak into poi in 4 people lobby with bat master

I rarely can do that solo just because enemies are standing to close to each other

[frigid gate]

some are sneakable, some are not sneakable, and some you can MAKE sneakable

by partially killing it

then leaving, and coming back later

no need to kill elite pigs in pig fort, when you can just kill bunch of smaller ones which are blocking the path

[fiery garnet]

I really dont know multiplayer strategies

Last time I played 4 people lobby was probably during the time game had only 2 chapters

[frigid gate]

professional drifting skills

[fiery garnet]

In multiplayer I played only duo with my friend

and the difference in the amount of enemies on the map is just insane

getting out of combat if needed felt like torture

because enemies are just everywhere

and its just 2 people

[frigid gate]

patch before last patch, they did some changes where ome of the new areas or certain old areas are blocked by 2-3 enemies COMPLETELY every single time, its intentional...

like chapter 2 L-shaped POI which you can usually find in the middle, theres always 3 spiders or some shi, you cant get past them with bat master.. solo its SOMETIMES possible

[fiery garnet]

still there are like 2.5 poi on chapter one that are sneakable on any character

and dont really know how much more bat master enables

[frigid gate]

its not that bad... most camps are being clear by AOE abilities anyway, more enemies only means more colalteral damage... bigger issue is the raised stagger bar..

its even worse on corruption

[fiery garnet]

corrupted elite pig feels like mini boss in multiplayer

I just feel that multiplayer in this game is not balanced properly

[frigid gate]

first of all, it gives you 30% movement speed, which is already big value for your team in multiplayer.. you can scout the map super fast, meaning you can join your team faster and get more tempo

[fiery garnet]

there are cases where you can solo carry whole lobby but like chapter 1 in multiplayer just really feels like torture

[frigid gate]

depends on the champ.... snow queen is cruising, can bully any camp solo

carmilla struggles on some elites

piper... we dont talk about that

[fiery garnet]

I might wanna try play multiplayer again

just not in public lobby

[fiery garnet]

ah yeah

and piper is my most played character btw

[zinc comet]

I completely disagree with this. In a run you have limited access to epic objects. Defence cooldown + ultimate cooldown are her two best options since her strongest build path is dispersion with a pivot into cruel strike/mass punishment late game. Blood from special just is not important on a defence build and having more cruel strikes will benefit you a significant amount more than having more specials

[fiery garnet]

Mass punishment is completely seperate thing

Idk why would you combine 2

Its not optimal

[zinc comet]

How is it separate when you said every build?

It is optimal

[fiery garnet]

When you play for mass punishment you play for mass punishment

Its lvl 10 talent

You have to survive early game some how

Without blood generation you are useless

[zinc comet]

Cruel strike is weaker early than dispersion/aggressive flock and pivot into mass punishment one shots everything with the hybrid build. You use seven leagues to have permanent dashes. You don't have to build entirely towards mass punishment

Defence cooldown gives you more cruel strikes

While carrying your early game with dispersion and aggressive flock

[fiery garnet]

I just dont think pivoting into mass punishment is even worth it

[zinc comet]

Lmao

[fiery garnet]

Whats the point

[zinc comet]

It outdamages defence build

[fiery garnet]

First ult oneshots bosses anyway

Are u playing 5 negative modifiers?

[zinc comet]

It has more mobility and faster damage than defence build and more up time than first ult

If you pivot into mass punishment on a defence build it will 100% increase your dps this is objectively true

[fiery garnet]

Great thx for advise now I'll spam mass punishment just because its "better" not because I have specific build in mind to play 👍

[zinc comet]

Remember this

[fiery garnet]

In solo even 200 dmg is enough to demolish any enemy in the game

In any build

On aby character

[zinc comet]

I can't keep up with you moving the goalposts like this

Doing more damage on a build is still better in multiplayer too lol what are you talking about

[fiery garnet]

Because you said a thing that pissed me off

Im not playing the same buils over and over again whats the point

This game is not hard

At least not on 5 negative modifiers

And even then I've never tried it

Because thats just borrig to play

I can wim NM run on any characters with any build first try

[zinc comet]

What exactly? That special cdr isn't worth it on a lot of carmilla builds or that mass punishment pivot is stronger than pure defence? Both of these things are just true

[fiery garnet]

Why would I care about min maxing optimizing builds

[zinc comet]

You came into this thread to do that to moskays build?

[fiery garnet]

XDDD

he literally has build that focuses specifically on defense

And you are saying

Nah defense is trash pivot into mass punishment is better

I genuinely dont wanna have any discussion with you

[zinc comet]

I'm saying special cooldown is worse than ultimate cooldown on a defence build

[fiery garnet]

Hope you don't wanna too

[zinc comet]

Because you said it was good on every build and I disagree

[zinc comet]

This is not what I said you are incapable of disagreement

[fiery garnet]

I just don't care

[zinc comet]

So I will no longer discuss this game with you. You just move the goalposts constantly anyway lol

[fiery garnet]

Its 3 am i wanna sleep 😴

[zinc comet]

Have a good day mate

Night*

[meager sonnet]

Hey guys, any tips for carmilla? Liked the Especial build, but didnt try out other stuff with her

[crisp surge]

try defense build...for the lols https://buildmaker.ravenswatch.com/build/6977f59f87a1416cdf3e78ec

I am kinda late to the "Carmilla stagger/stealth/whip/not sure" party...but I will just say cause I don't think I see it, that "bleed doesn't bypass stagger anymore" hit was a little too much, can we make it reduced damage, not "zero" damage?? like that's not cool?

[frigid gate]

safest and overall best build is DEFENSE, other and more consistent is SPECIAL POWER is hardest to pull but has highest potential dps.. then you have 2 dash builds, heartbreak and mass punishment, but they go online at lvl 10

[frigid gate]

not sure what you are talking about here, bleed is same type of damage than any other damage, therefore same rules in terms of armored enemies apply to it, it simply ticks over time thats all... the only difference is, that if you apply it while enemy is staggered, when he wakes up the numebrs wont change... if he ticks for 100 per second while staggered, hes gonna tick for 100 per second even after he wakes up... only new bleed instances applied are ticking for less

[crisp surge]

Before if you spammed defense distortion on crabs...they are dying

now...NO you have to stagger...also bosses

it didn't work as well in multiplayer, but still kinda chipped a little bit

now...no like you have to fully stagger enemies...I just think bleed should get away being a unique dot and ignore stagger better

I originally thought that this was intentional idea of carmilla "poor stagger, but can bleed to death"...but they nerfed that, I don't even think they offically stated the nerf to it like that, but maybe I didn't read something

[meager sonnet]

okay

txs!!

[frigid gate]

whats "before" ?

[crisp surge]

I think can find a vid

[frigid gate]

just tell me what patch

[crisp surge]

I

'd say before hourglass pbbly? I just stopped for a while lol

[frigid gate]

no that wasnt the case before hourglass from what I remember

I started playing march 2025 and I am pretty sure bleed wasnt not going through armor but might be wrong

[crisp surge]

maybe earlier then lol let me check

[frigid gate]

yes thats how it should work but sadly devs cant balance the game properly so bleed is basically useless, jsut another dot dmg that buffs POWER CHARGE set bonus effect, thats it

[crisp surge]

I mean I feel they do a lot of "intentional, but we're not gonna put it like that" type of nerfs xD LOL, like the camps being so stealth/snipe unfriendlier...wow like you went out of your way do that. Even the new items...they're kinda okish...but kinda meddle with what works "easily"...Idk...

this whole "spam of elites that need stagger" to slow down the game...I think it's all intentional slow down the experience of the game

but they're good at it cause they don't just "nerf" they add a few "feels good" distractions xD

I feel like this whole "stagger changes" happened..like when wukongs thunder power used to ignore staggers, Carmilla bleed ignored it...they did some update at some point...also crabs used to need to be staggered multiple times for you to actually damage them they made it you only need it to stagger it once....I think before these changes bleeds worked that way...

I mean I am not saying it's not a deserved nerf...cause spam distortion was lol...but...idk

lol in the meantime "rip" - no excuses xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNOuS76gl_M

[frigid gate]

u mean dispersion

[frigid gate]

wdym, this was directly stated 2 (patch reveal) streams ago, where they said they are making it harder to steal most POIs, including ghoul mother boss

[frigid gate]

not sure if its balanced properly but the fact you have stagger bar and the fact that its harder to stagger enemies in multiplayers adds another layer of complexity thich gives them more tools they can work with when balancing the game.. if you only have one number you can tweak, you cant balance the game for every different situation, oyu have one number for all situations... so its good that its harder to stagger and kill enemies in coop if you are trying to do it solo... game forces you basically to play with team...
you dont want to triple stagger a single elite

@zinc comet is it true that bleed ignored armor at some point?

[crisp surge]

right..distortion xd?

ow they actually said we don't want stealing didn't see that

[crisp surge]

like make bleed ignore stagger a bit, and maybe burn damages stagger bar a bit..that'd be a cool "identity" difference, other than "it's a tag for more crit chance" tool...well it's good for the execute item as well

this way this whole "stun/burst" is best gaming be a little less..."clear cut".

if that's too busted as a "general" thing..maybe make it I dunno..razor claws carmilla makes her bleed do that, beo's furnace stronger ignite talent does that as a bonuse

[zinc comet]

I don't think so. I have been playing since before they released carmilla and I don't remember ever being able to kill crabs quickly with dispersion. They did change the way her bleed functioned at one point and it was a nerf but it didn't relate to stagger in any way

[crisp surge]

Maybe it was mainly big crab that I'm hung up on...idk anymore
37:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw9kKEue8ag
I mean I guess who cares it's done and over era...dispersion build is still lol anyway,...wow mmber when you couldn't see your stats...I forgot about that

[zinc comet]

I think his words are just giving the wrong impression. the bleed isn't going through the shield any more than any other attack is, the numbers are still severely reduced

[crisp surge]

but if you bleed the crab now the bleed just doesn't just register at all I think lol

idk...I feel like wukongs thunder/carmillas bleed were the two wonky with stagger and they fixed those that's my memory maybe i didn't get what was it that happened

[zinc comet]

it looks pretty much the same to me

[zinc comet]

nevermind it looks like crabs specifically are different

hmm yeah idk when this happened

it's a shame he cut the fight on the outside crabs I would have like to have seen how it functioned against them

[frigid gate]

no its just crab boss, you are not doing any dmg to him until you stagger him...

[zinc comet]

dispersion wasn't doing anything to the crabs outside until they were staggered either

[zinc comet]

also watch the positive4ce video above. the crab boss is bleeding like the mother ghoul in my clip

[frigid gate]

ghoul mother has different shield compared to karkinos, karkinos is taking 1hp dmg, similar to ch3 boss I believe, until broken... ghoul mother has ACTUAL 2 icon shield (75% dr)

it can still be true tho that bleed is not doing 1hp dmg in the clip, because it should tick for 10 seconds but it looks like clearly only floch is doing dmg to the crab

karkinos has golden shield which has to be broken first

[zinc comet]

in the positive4ce clip it looks like the flock bats are all hitting for 1hp but that bleed is ticking for 6 on first pass through, 13 on second time, 20 on third and then 45 once dispersion hits

I watched it slowed down and that's how it seems to me

[frigid gate]

oh the video from the other guy? I have been rewatching your clips, wondering if I am missing something

[zinc comet]

yeah my videos were just to compare. I did a quick half run earlier just to test

[frigid gate]

that clip is quite old tho, 1 month post release, bleed/regen was still bugged, even though I dont think it has anything to do with the fact he was doing dmg to the karkinos, I think it was also shadow patched

[zinc comet]

yeah I have no memory of bleed functioning differently I feel like I was complaining about carmilla being useless against crabs from the beginning and I always played defence build lol

too lazy to search through the video to check if it doesn't damage regular crabs tho

[frigid gate]

i tried to calculate the damage of his defense based on what I see in the video roughly, and divided by 6,5 which seems to be roughly the value of one bleed tick from one defense hit, result was 27, which in reality should be 25, meaning 75% damage reduction against bleed... I guess just spaghetti coding, all sources of damage except BLEED and maybe something else were doing 1hp dmg (assuming gold shield)... bleed assumes double shield (75% dr).. or at least it did

[frigid gate]

well I checked the video and learnt something new.. I always thought mortar crabs have regenerative 2shield, turns out they have gold shield and single normal shield (50% dr) after first stagger... hmm

33:15 you can see that bleed is working as expected on normal elite crab.. so only karkinos was the bugged exception

[zinc comet]

ok good this makes me feel a little less insane because I have been skipping that boss since forever

[frigid gate]

wdym skipping

[zinc comet]

in solo you never have to fight it and I mostly play solo

[frigid gate]

you can use that argument for every objective you dont have to fight anything to beat the game... but I understand the point, if I was about to skip something for extra hourglass item it would be weaker optional boss

[zinc comet]

I meant you can hug the wall then dash to get the loot without fighting the boss lol

[frigid gate]

ah, true, kinda forgot about that... since they patched ghoul mother I guess I blindly assumes the ydid the same with crab boss, so I never even bothered to check that but its ok I like fighting things!

[meager sonnet]

Im still learning how to play with carmilla but im always having some hard times in the early game with the Special (E) build

The power build is cool in the begginning too... But for some reason I didnt like the middle/late game

And her special build aleays bug me into the walls too hahahah

[velvet prism]

Is I ever justified not to take bat master solo?

[frigid gate]

not sure I understand the question

[velvet prism]

whoops, corrected. being able to move fast and past enemies seems REALLY good?

[crisp surge]

It really is, you should try it lol.

it's kinda like drifting fun, and you can loot things if you drift right....and getting from point a to b faster is not to be underestimated lol.

[velvet prism]

Yeah I’ve done it

But I’m wondering how to justify ever NOT doing it

[crisp surge]

oow....well..I mean I like all of the starting talents..sure life tap is a little...hmmm, but I still like it.

The first talent gives you a bit of a boost to vitality for vitality scaling and special build is pretty strong on solo so you not dying is going to be "pretty easy". On multi...uhh it takes a while for your special to one shot stuff so I wouldn't.

Blood rage, makes scaling a hybrid special power build pretty strong with injection, I actually prefer that one personally on 4 multiplayer.

Life tap, it can be a trollish "I can keep my team alive easily" at day time with a few mermaid tears...the issue is night time 30% crit is nice of course...but...Idk, but still the daytime aspect of it is really strong imo. The movement speed is nice too, but yeah it is a bit of...lol but why. On daytime only modifer though I am going for it lol.

[frigid gate]

ofc it is, its overall the best talent and not just because other 3 are "bad"... it allows you to sneak many things like keys, POIs, fountains for free, without it you cant sneak some of it... sneaking means saving time, but it also means losing XP but its ok because now you can choose which enemies you are going to kill, and you kill only those you actually need to kill

also the movement speed from bat master stacks with extra movement speed from your form, you do 2 bites, then active form and you are ZOOMING... map is gonan get scouted in a minute if you ignore everything else!

[meager sonnet]

Dont forget about the ms if you get 3 itens of the defense stacks, its hard to control the speed hahahahaha

Carmilla vrum vrum bat excuse me

[velvet prism]

I got a purple nom quest and it’s actually super fun, though man her single target damage feels weak

[meager sonnet]

Only at early game, Im not the carmilla pro, but her power skill is one of the best skills at early and her especial skill scales in a dumb way that you IK everything in late game with the right build

[slate badger]

Does anyone know why my boiling blood wont proc? I had it + mermaid tears but never proc'd once

[cosmic meadow]

You need to consume HP for a bit. It doesn't activate instantly.

[wraith hearth]

https://discord.com/channels/614096898290089994/1467683920060616776

i would think his entire hp bar is sufficient to trigger boiling blood

[slate badger]

yeah dont know why but I tried turning off vsync, capping fps, doesnt work for me

[turbid thorn]

Any tips for carmilla early game in nightmare coop?
I used the moskay tip of using trait with full blood and orb

Also im trying to use the defense build, but when does it start to become better than using orb?

Basically im having issues with sustain or heal at night

[frigid gate]

thats sadly not the build issue and is a different question from your initial one

[turbid thorn]

Yep because clear speed is way better now

Im having that issue now 😅

[frigid gate]

early game you play around cooldowns.... if I have only common dispersion or aggressive floch, orb is probably doing more dps overall so whenver I enter the form, I start with orb... I usually try to upgrade my floch/dispersion to at least epic if I think I can afford to spend some money early game) so I can do more dps on a single DEFENSE hold but once you get out of DEFENSE, you have to use orb anyway....

also obviously since orb is AOE spell, you should try to position your enemies in a way where you know the moment you start orbing, you are hitting as many of the mas possible, dont press your trait the moment you have full blood (unless you want to instantly use DEFENSE), use it when the time is nigh

[frigid gate]

carmilla is mostly mid to long range champ, also dont forget you have i-frames on your way back after you use SPECIAL, use it to your advantage... scratch the enemies to get some blood and the moment they are about to hit you, use your special to i-frame the attack

[turbid thorn]

Great ill implement that

Her attack is ever worth using?

[crisp surge]

to get blood yes

[frigid gate]

only for blood generation basically

or if you aim for heartbreak/mass punishment build but thats slightly different story

[turbid thorn]

Excellent I'll try all those tips
Thanks for the advice 😁

[limpid vine]

is it just me, or is aggressive flock a massive double edged sword?

it pulls the attention of mobs outside the poi so many times that i feel like im better off without it

[crisp surge]

I was gonna type a bunch of stuff about defense build being kinda ugh on but potentially still ok in multiplayer. But yes I think taking aggressive flock is a "risk" on multi especially 4, unless you have a lot of power you can carry everything yourself. 2 players should be ok.

Also defense spam builds stagger being weak can be an issue, I much prefer bloodrage/special spam, power hybrid.

It's also not bursty damage which a lot of the times that help control things better

But overall defense still can be stupid enough to not care what it's aggroing, but when special/power gets stupid it's more "stable" imo.

[limpid vine]

for carmilla, is batmaster really her best talent? i don't find myself scouting

[frigid gate]

I would say average time clearing a camp is anything between 0:45 and maybe 1:30, in ch1 especially... with bat master, you can straight up ignore the process of killing by going straight to lets say shard chunk, destroy it and leave, all in like 10-20 seconds... that saved time you can use on getting other POIs you wouldnt be able to get normally, or just start boss early to get free items

[limpid vine]

idk, with so many mobs around it just doesnt feel possible half the time

her early game specifically is so frustrating because it feels so specific on what i need

[crisp surge]

it is a very strong talent for sure, but it also needs you to use what it does lol, like the stealth is the main juice if you don't want to play around defense at all. But I think in multi the mob density is annoying to drift imo. I think on 2 players still pretty strong.

If you don't want to play around it I don't think it's the end of the world - to me, the other talents have their "fun angle". But I said before the special heals is also not great on multi, and life tab is very "???".

Life tab is fun if you wanna try it with the power of the sun challenge on multi though

Just having the button gives you stealth is worth, when without it you'll never do is worth considering even for small things, but I don't pick it in random matchmaker most of the time

You can also play defense build without it and function fine...it really is the stealth/speed that's the main juice

[frigid gate]

you also need driving license to learn how to drive, otherwise it might look very hard.... same applies to carmilla, its hard to drive with bat master, you just have to practice doing it....

theres a lot of tips and tricks for bat master which you find over time, people doesnt realize how easy it is to sneak some camps that LOOK initially impossible... for exampel sometimes you just need to kill the outside mobs, smalelr ones and come back later, now the path is opened

[limpid vine]

it could just be that she isnt for me

like scouting isnt fun for me and trying to sneak just to have to fight because some mob saw me pmo

[frigid gate]

I was wipiing on merlin first few games as well, until I figured out what are his best abilities in various situations etc, same applies to many other champs, you feel like they are weak, or that they are simply not strong in your hands.. none is true, every champ can be super strong once you understand his pros and cons

[limpid vine]

I changed my mind @frigid gate I pulled off a bite build and I enjoy it

[velvet prism]

Wait. How is Furious Tempest not awful? Slow ramp to 40% power damage after 3 seconds of charging?

[frigid gate]

last multiplier

probably best multiplier in the game

[velvet prism]

Wait. It’s multiplicative instead of additive?

[frigid gate]

almost all talents are multiplicative

[velvet prism]

This is not what I heard recently. Wow, the communication here is awful then

[frigid gate]

items are additive, not sure if all

you do have some exceptions for talents where they are additive

[velvet prism]

That’s awful lol

[frigid gate]

like snow queens frost surge.. basically worth a little more than 1 pearl + balors

no, whats awful is that as a matter of fact, theres too many multipliers which introduce big power creep in the game.. I wouldnt mind if almost everything was additive

[velvet prism]

Communication is what’s important here

+20% additive and +20% multiplicative are massively different things

Numbers would have to change for everything to be additive, but yeah consistency is definitely communication

[frigid gate]

yeah well the coding is shit, something is additive, something is multiplicative, and even though theres a pattern, its broken every now and then coz some intern in passtech doesnt know how rest of the code works

my point is that you have to figure it out by yourself, whats additive and what isnt

[velvet prism]

I doubt it’s the coding’s issue at all? I bet multiplicative ones are rarer and smaller

[velvet prism]

And my point is that this is insane lol

[frigid gate]

I am talking about inconsistency.. why is furious tempest multiplicative by a massive 1.7 multiplier, but snow queens frost surge is additive?

they are both talents, arent they?

[velvet prism]

I bet because they did math

because furious tempest requires charging for a long time. If you charge for 3 seconds and end at 70%, that means you got an average of 35% damage over the 3 seconds, etc

[frigid gate]

oh yeah coz develoeprs are definitely thinking about stuff like this during design, sure.... those 10s of bugs we have found in the last 2 years that made no sense at all, they sure were also part of the meticulous thought processes and not just a**pulled... cmon bro

if you want to find a wannabe reason for why thing are the way they are, you can ALWAYS find something... in reality, they just put the tempest calculation somewhere in the equation where it doesnt belong

[velvet prism]

The game would be utterly awful if they never thought about balance. Even people who think about it make mistakes though, game balance is very difficult

[frigid gate]

why is for example merlins wild magic + sacred strikee multiplicative??? you can oneshot the boss with a single bleed ATTACK

[velvet prism]

There’s no way. Notice that I could tell it shouldn’t be additive instantly by reading it

[frigid gate]

wheres the rampup here?

[frigid gate]

oh but ofc they think about balance.. they just probably never did it in their career before and the balance looks like it...

its true that having all these broken things are increasing the fun aspect of the game but talking about balance??? thats a stretch...

you can get talent thats giving you perma 70% crit chance.. thats balanced in your opinion?? in most games you are happy if you get 3-5% crit chance

there so many examples where things are inconsistent... like the merlins wild magic + sacred strike multiplication... why for example isnt juliets shrapnel scaling from backstep?? shrapnel is always calculated from your baseline POWER dmg.. why isnt scarlets evisceration bleed benefiting from crits? why is the bleed always doing same dmg no matter if you crit or no?? I can go on and on

[halcyon cave]

How do you guys play her in multiplayer?

In solos clearing entire camps with power is fairly easy to do. In multiplayer the mobs tend to spread out and I find her sustained damage (and healing) to be lacking

[halcyon cave]

Start boss early
To get free items 🤔

[frigid gate]

I mean most of your damage early game comes from your orb, so it all comes down to knowing when to use it to maximize its value... usually you have only one orb per form activation so use it carefully.. also dont try to solo ahrd camps because carmilla has no stagger

you can get gust for stagger but thats about it

[halcyon cave]

Yeah I’m struggling with her in multi player. I play 90% solo but my buddies picked the game up and it’s way tougher in multi

[crisp carbon]

Carmilla is my penultimate hero for doing all starting/ult talents on nightmare - any tips for life tap?

(sad that it doesn't seem to trigger gust/angel&demon)

[frigid gate]

staying in form is key obviously, puncture helps... you need some healing sources, relying on angel and demon is not good. grail helps but its not worth it to get it early.. mermaids tears are almost must if you want to really focus on life tap, at least 2-3... the issue with life tap is you kinda have to live with the fact the its gonna become strong only late game, maybe late-mid game

I only play life tap in some meme builds, like impalement build, where I stack as many raven eyes as possible, with nibelungen ring and blodo reserve,, outside of that its kinda hard to find value for this talent

[crisp carbon]

Yeah, there are a few like that. Merlin's trinity was a minor pain too (though the second run I got given the hourglass in my starting shop, so it went quicker than expected :p )

[crisp carbon]

I'll probably just look for the generically powerful talents. I am already finding it a bit more useful than expected (since you get healing from levels much more in act 1, allowing me to be a bit more aggressive about using it for speed)

[crisp carbon]

Hardly the most original build, but I got there

After winning, I wish even more that life tap triggered gust/a&d - life tap way pretty valuable to make chapter 1 faster, but I think between mid chapter 2 & baba yaga I barely used it

[frigid gate]

you got cut the throat (or whats the name)... thats the "build" right there

[crisp carbon]

shh :p

Also 4 eggs early, which really does help

[frigid gate]

also never take that lvl 10, you would be doing so much more damage if you took the most broken dmg dealing ability in the game, which is mass punishment.. you already had 2 raven wings and cruel strike... few swipes clear the camp with your stats

[crisp carbon]

Oh. I know - I'm just trying to get the nightmare mark on all 4 starting/final ults

And I felt powerful enough by chapter 3 that I was willing to go for both

I now never have to take it again :p

All I have left on her are... onslaught, cruel strike, and angel & demon

Also, why doesn't seductive provocation affect bosses? It would be tolerable if it affected the mini bosses, speed them up a bit

I got so tilted on one of my failed runs where I grabbed it to try out the new trigger and then thought I was doing it wrong on the giant until I actually read it

[frigid gate]

because no one knows... and whoever is doing these changes/balancing has clearly never done anything like it before... would be ever worse case, if he actually did...

for some reason some champs like juleit can apply long duration vulnerable every 4 seconds on any enemy but carmilla is limited to the specific amount of enemies and cant even hit big ones.... reasons reasons

[crisp carbon]

Yeah, Carmilla & Aladdin just have some... weird skills that don't seem to work with the rest of their kit.

[frigid gate]

life tap should be overall buffed... triggering gust should be alright but it would be too broken so that would require life tap cooldown nerf, lets say 8-10 seconds... also you should be able to press life tap while holding POWER...

[crisp carbon]

Would it even be that broken? You do have to invest heavily in healing if you want to use it as a primary damage dealer

I guess it probably would in chapter 1. I don't think I'd taken gust on previous runs out of concern that you can only use it once a fight, but I was surprised by how much it could destroy most of the green/yellow camps when grabbing it as a level 2 skill

[frigid gate]

and make the life tap explode and apply bleeding in a wide AOE to enemies.. doesnt have to be too much dmg but it would proc skills like "flesh rip" or "sadism"

would gladly sacrifice gust explosion for this

[silent token]

Life tap giving more bonus stats the longer you stay in damphnir (up to a maximum) would be neat.

[twilit bolt]

Am I wrong in feeling that the order of the "layers" for Carmilla's memories is different from everyone else's ?

Carmilla after 1 memory unlock

Sun after 1 memory unlock

I don't have the abilities or vocabulary to properly describe what I see here, but it looks like for everyone but Carmilla first memory is the sketch, but barely any shading, which comes after second memory unlock

And Carmilla gets the shading but not much drawn after first memory ?

not sure if this is intended or just my mind playing tricks

[crystal veldt]

the amount of damage you can stack with Carmilla is INSANE

[crystal veldt]

bro needs to play Piper more

[wanton cedar]

So this is probably a stupid question... But is her base bloodbank 100?

[frigid gate]

yes

[wanton cedar]

Thanks!

Really wish there were a readout above the healthbar, rather than just the one overhead.

Numbered, at that.

[frigid gate]

would be nice.. we just had a discussion recently regarding aladdin enchantment points coz you also dont know how many he has baseline and how much are you spending with attacks

[wanton cedar]

Oh dude, yeah.
That's another one that really kinda irks me. xD

Played him a couple times, he's neat, but I'm still getting a feel for him.

[wanton cedar]

On that note, do Razor Claws and Onslaught synergize?
Better yet, RC, Onslaught and Sadism?

[frigid gate]

yes.. also heartbreak and mass punishment

[wanton cedar]

Nice!
Haven't unlocked them, yet

[frigid gate]

its ult upgrades

[wanton cedar]

But definitely good to know!

Ooooh

👍

[zinc comet]

yeah they work great together in that they force you to click the reroll button when they both show up at the same time

[wanton cedar]

Eh, one step closer to a build, regardless.

Unless you're simply implying they're both trash abilities.

[zinc comet]

Yeah they're both pretty useless. If you want to apply bleed, defence/dispersion is 1000x better than razor claws

And onslaught is bait. The percentage number being large tricks you into thinking it does damage then it just does basically nothing

'attack' carmilla is centred around ult

Other versions are very low dps

[wanton cedar]

I'm assuming you mean the secondary Ult?

And does that preclude a complete Attack setup to maximize Onslaught's capability with a 100% crit rate?

Or does Onslaught count as it's own "thing" outside of the baseline "Attack" modifiers?

🤔

And big question, is Life Tap worth the increased risk of burning survivability, when lowered cooldowns on Special can recover as much as it does, within seconds?

On top of the loss of utility and power over Blood Rage or Bat Master.

For the record, my interest in Onslaught is less due to the high percentile, and more for maintaining movement in a combo, while layering Bleed-alongside Bat form on enemies nonstop for Crit rate on Power.

...I tend to overthink these things.

I've also had a lot of runs without any crit rate bonuses, roses or MOs, and never break the 70% mark without the Bleed crit bonus. 😮‍💨

[silent token]

Onslaught is good when you have between 5 and 7 special cooldown (no more or less). It's still worse than any other special related talent beside that.

[frigid gate]

why would it be bad before 5 cooldowns? onslaught is MAINLY good when you havent enough cdr, coz theres nothing else to do probably..

[frigid gate]

flesh rip is a garbage talent, bleed ticks for 5 seconds, by the time you apply bleed and start orbing you already lost 2 seconds on average you get maybe 2-3 seconds crit chance value on your orb, which also makes the potential synergy with sadism and furious tempest nonexistent.... carmilla is poorly designed, speaking of all the ways she can apply bleed and benefit from it...

[wanton cedar]

Hm...

It takes around 7 seconds for the bleed from Dispersion to actually tick down on most enemies that can survive it, though?

At max, I mean.

[silent token]

It's mid before that

[frigid gate]

why? what makes it better at 5-7 cooldowns?

if its mid before its gonna be mid after... damage applies to everything else

[wanton cedar]

Frequency

[frigid gate]

yes.. just like frequency of... like.. everything elses is mid?? whats the real point here exactly?

[wanton cedar]

Even if it's not "great" damage, it's still fast damage, that can be chained together.

Which is why I'm looking for more info

And more importantly, positioning.

[frigid gate]

if I get a talent that gives me something extra, especially damage, and I can use it right after every special, that means with more special cdr the amount of my onslaughts grows linearly... does that also make special "mid"? onslaught scales only from damage, special scales from balors, special cdr, maybe talents, so as you keep going, onslaught becomes FAR WORSE comapred to jsut raw special. .that doesnt make special early game bad and especialyl not onslaught, relatively speaking

[silent token]

Onslaught is mobility after 5 special cooldown, and after 7, it's a loss of dps doing onslaught instead of spaming special (because of anim speed)

[frigid gate]

we are talking BEFORE 5-7 special cdr now, you said its mid before that.. I wanna know why... everything else makes sense

its everything you mentioned even before lvl 5

[tawny bay]

I started playing Carmilla recently and she's more enjoyable than I thought, but got the most death doors in all runs I did in coop 😬 No Boiling Blood or Unicorn Horn and I find myself low on health a lot

[silent token]

It's mid as in it's a random damage talent you pick up along the way

Like You're never "wow! Onslaught is there! My run is salvaged!"

The good Carmilia talents are those who provide action econ on what she always wants to do. Onslaugh is a replacement of her normal pattern. It's more dps when you use it, it's kind of meh. However, at 5 special cooldown, weaving special and onslaught become really decent and because of the frequency of intangibility stance + the AOE special builds lack when you go deep into them.

[wanton cedar]

It's doing some heavy lifting in between Power, on my active run.
An extra 300-500 damage burst while refilling Blood is nothing to sneeze at on an otherwise rough run.

Does decent stagger, as well.

Would it be my priority?
No.
But it's a good combo addition, even if only used for spacing purposes at base level.

And I'm gonna have to go in favor of Rip.
Used right, you can actually maintain constant crit boosting for dps.

It's not a groundbreaking run and build, but it is doing just fine, easy, even.

Trivialized the 2nd boss. Haven't even bothered using an Ult once.

[frigid gate]

my issue is not with what you are saying regarding onslaught per se... I agree its bad-ish talent... but you said its not that good before 5 special cdrs and is only good between 5-7.. which is random, not very thought-through opinion... if the onslaught is bad at the start without cdr,s its not gonna become better. percentage wise its providing same value no matter how many cdrs you have, assuming you always special+onslaught... if anything, it becomes WORSE late game because of raven claw activation and as you said later you only wanna use special if you have enough cdr..

also from what I have noticed and I have some footage still, its doing roughly 30-40% of special dmg, but in a line, its not actually that bad, assuming you CANT get enough special cdrs, its basically 20-25% of your dps

mid game at least

[silent token]

It's more like: "Oh, you're running low in rerolls and you have plenty of special CD at 9, may as well pick something that does stuff." Otherwise, there's not a single situation where you want to pick that talent.

Which is the window I was mentionning

[frigid gate]

in my opinion it has close to nonexistent stagger lol... its still basically just an attack

if it had at least some good stagger, that talent would become immediately more appealing... you would still rely on stagger coming from talents but hey, at least something...

[wanton cedar]

It was chunking Arthur pretty heavily alongside Special to trigger it.

It's a wide sweep, penetrates, and deals about half the damage of Power's explosion with the 3sec boost, as well as a set of Kings, and the Blood Rage boost, so... yeah.
It's a good option, if you're using it for utility and damage, it's equivalent to Bite's damage.
So per bite, you can reposition twice, and double your dps while Orb is on CD.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

It's worthwhile in my book, it's just not a build by itself

To amend, Onslaught does the same Stagger as Bite, as well.

It's basically an extra, long range, free Bite.

[frigid gate]

you double your dps only in camps by hitting at least 3 enemies since as I said its doing roughly 1/3 of your bites dmg and it ONLY scales from base dmg, bite scales from SPECIAL stuff... its a fun build when you make it around onslaught and its noticeable dmg but its nothing super broken.. it just... is...

[wanton cedar]

It's equivalent to a fully buffed Bite.
Both in stagger, and damage.
I took my time with the 3rd area to be sure.

[frigid gate]

also the repositioning is nice but its giving you a false notion of (two times more mobility), because you HAVE TO use it shortly after special, but you already used special to reposition so you dont probably have to for the next second or two, so you rarely need an extra mobility right after special..

[wanton cedar]

It dealt the same damage, every time, singular targets, for confirmation.

At 60 base damage increase, which is easy to get.

[frigid gate]

its doing 6x14 = 84 dmg at legendary, lvl1... special is 100... onslaught scales from razor claws tho and sadism, but so does special so lets assume only claws... it should be additive, is my guess so 84 * 1,7 = 142.... its doing 42% more dmg early game.... but later you get 3 claws thats +40% special damage, which already puts it on roughly same dmg output, but you get balors with dozen of thunderstones which drasticalyl increases your special damage so onslaught falls off

I forgot to mention I was assuming end game build, thats why I said that onslaught is doing like 1/3 of special dmg

[wanton cedar]

I'm strictly talking about Onslaught vs Bite, with both at max.
Equal damage numbers on singular targets, with a flat 60 damage boost.

The stagger was also identical between the two.

[frigid gate]

special is 100, onslaught is 84

[wanton cedar]

Base numbers, yes. You won't likely have bases by Ch2

[frigid gate]

highly doubt, I am not gonna test it now and couldnt find any onslaught clips sadly... feel free to send a clip proving this.. otherwise I will do it myself later

[wanton cedar]

Be my guest.
I'm just saying that dismissing anything is kinda foolish in a game as variable as this.

If nothing else, it's a fast addition for stagger, and is worth investing in.

[zinc comet]

once you reach a certain level the game loses this variability

I think the only situation I'm taking onslaught is if the other talent provides literally nothing because that's pretty much what onslaught will provide as the run progresses

even in my no reroll run where I had sweet spot special cdr for repeated special/onslaught I was completely unimpressed lol

[frigid gate]

I am dismissing this after having 800+ hours just on carmilla, playing all sorts of challenges

[wanton cedar]

/shrug
Again, it was well worth it in my last couple runs, I'm not telling anyone how to play, but I am saying that discarding options, and encouraging new players to do so, is a bad move, when nothing is set in stone.

Meta is all well and good, but it doesn't always work out with RNG in the mix.

[zinc comet]

I think people are free to experiment for themselves but I'm still going to offer my own conclusions from the experience I have with the game

[wanton cedar]

As will I.

So stop dismissing what I've experienced in my runs, just because it's not your preferred. 🙃

[zinc comet]

I am simply saying that if you build with a better approach to macro onslaught provides less and less. it provides something because it does something, but what it provides loses value the better you are at building into the things that are actually good

and in this game if you approach the macro a certain way you can have almost complete control over your build (just losing out on minor optimisations)

[wanton cedar]

It literally swept the 2nd and 3rd Chapters, didn't need Orb, or Ult.

[zinc comet]

special does this on its own and when built correctly has permanent uptime by this point

[wanton cedar]

Used Orb for damage differences, then dropped it for the faster option, which was Bite>On.

[zinc comet]

the damage is also worse because special gets the crit from go for the throat and onslaught does not, and typically special builds invest heavy resources into crit damage but not crit

so if you want to make your onslaught better on your special build you have to make your special worse

[wanton cedar]

You really don't, given you can stack both pretty easily.

[zinc comet]

there is an opportunity cost in taking crit chance

you are losing out on other options that benefit the special

so making it worse

[wanton cedar]

Crit rate is easy to get, and maxing two talents is done before the close of Ch1 unless you get horrible RNG.

Bite will only suffer if you actively choose to make it so.

[zinc comet]

which you are doing if you want to make onslaught not pointless over just doing another special

4x jacks + go for the throat is over 100% crit chance on your special but provides nothing to your onslaught which is only going to scale with your base damage multiplier

[wanton cedar]

Again, I had it fully buffed, as I said already, as well as Orb, and Onslaught, with a bunch of otherwise useless filler.

It worked extremely well for me, and made Orb virtually useless, even at max.

[zinc comet]

orb is always useless on a special build

[wanton cedar]

I wasn't doing a strict Special build, it became such by Ch3, but only because it maximized my damage while chaining it with Onslaught

[zinc comet]

this is what I am saying though. the more experience you have with the game the more control you have over your build and the more you can create that special build every single time. onslaught becomes useless because you don't need to compromise with worse hybridisations

[wanton cedar]

I maxed Orb before bite because of my pulls, but that was just incidental

It's literally a .5 second attack that chains off of Bite.

[zinc comet]

which takes away from doing another bite which does significantly more damage because you build into the guaranteed crit on it and stack crit damage while your onslaught is not benefitting from any of it

[wanton cedar]

Skipping it is just dropping an additional chunk of damage and stagger, that combos into itself.

[zinc comet]

and you have thunderstone + balor's for aoe

skipping it means taking something else that benefits me more at earlier stages of the run where both of them are going to become usless later anyway

like I said the only situation I take onslaught is if the other talent does literally nothing

[wanton cedar]

What part of "swept the 3rd Chapter" was unclear?

Again, it worked extremely well, for what I used it for.

So while it's useless in your experience, I found it to be an excellent pairing.

[zinc comet]

like I said, it does something on a bad build

[wanton cedar]

So Special builds are bad, then?

[zinc comet]

no, special builds are good they just don't use onslaught

[wanton cedar]

Because that's what it pairs with.

You're literally dropping damage and utility.

[zinc comet]

no, you are dropping damage by using onslaught instead of another special I have explained this several times already

[wanton cedar]

How many times do I need to reiterate that Bite had EVERY accommodating buff to make that clear?

[zinc comet]

I think the gap in our knowledge and understanding of the game is too large for this conversation to be productive

[wanton cedar]

I don't care if you don't think it's worthwhile, my runs say otherwise, and you shouldn't take offense to that, like I'm trying to kick your dog.

[zinc comet]

I'm not taking offense here I'm just explaining to you how builds work and why it is objectively worse than just doing another special on a functional special build

[wanton cedar]

Again, I was simply stating that it was more effective than was being implied.

[zinc comet]

special builds into crit damage with guaranteed crits while also scaling damage with balor's. none of these things apply to onslaught so every time you do an onslaught you are sacrificing the insane amount of extra damage you would be doing on another special

your bite did not have every accommodating buff

because you do not understand how to build it so that it does

[wanton cedar]

Whatever you say.
I'm clearly just not on your intellectual level, and don't understand how anything functions. 😋

Probably can't even read, based on your evaluation.

[zinc comet]

I mean I get that it sounds insanely condescending but what I'm saying about the builds is objectively true

[wanton cedar]

So what do I know.

Nah, you do you, tell people how to enjoy the game, discourage experimentation, and I'll be enjoying clearly subpar builds, that made for the easiest clear I've had, yet.

[zinc comet]

I didn't discourage anything I said you're free to experiment on your own. but I have well over 1.5k hours in this game and I understand how builds work moskay has similar hours with half of that on carmilla herself and is saying the same thing

[wanton cedar]

Still holds no bearing on how well it worked for me.

[zinc comet]

you can enjoy building however you want but it doesn't change onslaught as a talent

[wanton cedar]

Which is what my initial statement was made on.

[zinc comet]

you were saying that it's equivalent to a fully buffed bite (wrong) and that it's worth investing in (wrong)

[wanton cedar]

I'd simply say that after playing the objectively "best" builds for too long, makes for an unhealthy prejudice for anything that doesn't meet overtly high expectations.

It was doing equivalent damage, per hit, as well as stagger.

MOs are great, but they don't determine the talent and it's efficacy 100%

[zinc comet]

all that means is that your bite was bad lol

[wanton cedar]

They modify, and can be done without.

Probably plenty of challenge runs that do exactly that.

[zinc comet]

if your onslaught was consistently doing the same damage as your bite it means your bite wasn't critting at all

[wanton cedar]

100% crit chance on it... Yeah, pretty sure it was.

[zinc comet]

and a special build with no crit isn't really a special build it's just base carmilla

so your bite with 100% crit chance was dealing the exact same damage as your onslaught without 100% crit is what you're saying?

[wanton cedar]

100% crit chance period

Roses were plentiful, as were crit chance MOs

And damage, at that.

[zinc comet]

what are MOs

[wanton cedar]

Yep, doesn't change the stagger, and with both doing the same damage, on crit, yeah, they were both chunking.

[zinc comet]

if you have 100% crit chance your special will be adding an additional 70% crit damage

so more damage

unless you made a special build without go for the throat in which case your special had none of the buffs not all of them

[wanton cedar]

Again, if you're "not telling people how to play" you're certainly doing your best to convince me that a clean run was useless.

I like the play style, and it was effective. Very much so.

[zinc comet]

yeah I mean you can make bad builds all you want but that's different to making the statements you were making about onslaught which is what I've been correcting this entire time

[wanton cedar]

Because it wasn't as "useless" as you implied, which is what I've been saying.

[zinc comet]

it is tho

it's just that your bite was also useless

[wanton cedar]

FFS, whatever dude.
Again, don't tell me that it's useless, when I basically made a no-effort run with it.

[zinc comet]

ok but don't pretend it's comparable to bite because I will correct that misinformation every time

[wanton cedar]

I was offering my experience with it, for benefit of others that want to find alternatives to meta builds.

[zinc comet]

I said from the beginning it does something on bad builds but bite eclipses it in every conceivable way if you understand how to build in this game

[wanton cedar]

Maybe you need to do more testing outside the "best" builds, than you have, then.

It's not a replacement for Bite, never said it was, as you need bite to trigger it.

I was putting forth how well it works in conjunction as it is directly tied to the ability in the first place.

It was worthwhile, and again, if nothing else, stagger is worth pairing it for a painlessly small singular slot.

[zinc comet]

I'm not sure how somebody so inexperienced can be so confident

[wanton cedar]

I'm not sure how someone so pompous and stubborn plays cooperative games.

I'm done arguing, I like the combo, don't care if you do not.

[zinc comet]

you're free to like it just don't spread misinformation about it due to your lack of understanding

[wanton cedar]

Don't tell people that it's useless when it's not.

[zinc comet]

and when experienced players correct you on it probably listen

[wanton cedar]

But you're still not "telling people how to play the game."

Right.

[zinc comet]

#1288785490266292306 message

[wanton cedar]

I'm just gonna mute you, I guess, I'm not interested in a lecture on how what works for me is useless to the meta.

[zinc comet]

this is what I have been saying from the beginning, you are the one taking it personally and assuming I am saying something I'm not

[wanton cedar]

Because you stated it was useless, but in my play, it very much is not.

Subjective, as are our opinions on the character, obviously.

Later, and enjoy how you like.

[zinc comet]

I never said it was useless I said it provides nothing on a proper special build

it does something on bad builds but bad builds are bad builds

this is not saying it is useless

I don't know why I bothered with this conversation lol

[frigid gate]

its very hard to explain what andrew is trying to explain without offending new-ish players...

imagine you starting learning some new thing, like programming (language)... you read whole book in 2 days, and then come in front of a senior programmer with 15 years experience and tells him how to write code.... so you are the new-ish programmer in this case... your arguments "kinda" make sense intuitively, because "you have read the book, so you must know what you are talking about, right?"

I swept through chapter 3: check
onslaught was providing extra damage: check
it was doing more damage than special, therefore is very valuable: check...

so its seemingly hard to argue against that.. EXCEPT... theres a lot of hidden variables you are either unable to see right now or maybe straight up refuse to see and being able to see them just requires experience

main point he made is that as you become better you will quickly realize you can force the same build every game +-... right now the build you played is seemingly good only because you havent build anything better and dont know how to build pure special build which outdamages your build by like N-times... another thing is you will learn to do this consistently

I assume you played nightmare?? I hope so.. if yes, my advice to you is to start playing every game with neg mod "corruption"... if you want to spice it up, add berserker foes... and you can go test your builds there

[wanton cedar]

Yeah, it was in Nightmare.

My overall point is simply, if something makes for an easy clear, regardless of whether or not it's considered "optimal" or "best", then it can't be called a "bad build" or "bad skill", due only to being overshadowed by cookie cutter setups that are "better" or "best".
If it's effective for said easy clear, then calling it bad, or an automatic reroll, is just stupid, and discourages experimentation and build variety, which is the lifeblood of titles like this.

Just because said senior programmer has more general experience in the field, doesn't mean they aren't prone to missing something simple, that can make a string work efficiently, vs requiring additional work to solve an error that could otherwise be avoided.

I work in Pharmaceuticals, and the number of times we have to fix prescription errors on things as simple as dosing, are astronomical, sometimes I catch things other Pharmacists with a lot more experience missed, they sometimes do the same with me.

Years in a field makes one more knowledgeable, but it doesn't mean one is right by virtue of experience.
I simply posit that this is a similar case.

Less than perfection, does not equal bad. If a build clears with ease, it can't by any means be qualified as "bad".

I don't know what else he's been spouting, and earnestly don't care.
I initially came to ask on synergy, and was immediately dissuaded.
Personal experience states a contraindication to what was implied, and I will continue to use whatever works well, regardless of what is considered the optimal, unless I hit a wall hard enough to force a "best" build.
Which doesn't seem likely at this point.

Screw this. I'm out.
I don't play games for lectures on being suboptimal, I play them to have fun.
Enjoy using the same build every game.

[frigid gate]

the reality of this game is that if you play vanilla nightmare, if you are skilled enough player its not just impossible to lose, no matter the build, it also becomes very rare to die... thats why a lot of OGs play negative modifier runs.. feel free to start with 5neg T-type, which is the easier one, you can test your game knowledge/builds there... in vanilla nightmare you can easily win it without any items... sadly

and good players know this, thats why whenever we talk about "optimal builds" we are not trying to say "you have to play this build in order to win" its more about making a build that is more fluid and way faster than all other variants (of the same build)...

if you can still enjoy the game without doing such min-maxing, good for you, I wish I could go through that phase once again

[zinc comet]

onslaught isn't bad it's actually comparable in damage to special if your build has none of the talents, objects, or resources that improve the damage of your special. maybe you 'experts' would know this if you took the time to experiment with builds instead of just doing what's 'optimal' 😏

like nobody cares if somebody wants to do bad builds but if you come into a discussion thread about a character of course the people there are going to be talking what's good and what's not and comparing the viability of different approaches it's the whole damn point

onslaught is not good because there are countless other ways for people to direct their build with carmilla that are all stronger and more effective I do not understand why this is such an offensive notion to some people

like cool you beat vanilla nightmare with it but that is entirely different to whether or not something is good within the context of a character and the other options available to them

the idea that people with thousands of hours in the game have simply missed how good onslaught is makes me laugh though. the guy with 50 hours has stumbled upon one of carmilla's greatest secrets and it will shock you all

the objective numbers on onslaught? they're actually a lie and it's way better than you might think!!!

[steady nimbus]

Well, that explains why he left.

@wanton cedar
You know better than to argue subjective topics.

@zinc comet
Maaaybe try to be less condescending on your deliveries.

Now both of you, drop it.

[zinc comet]

my patience has its limits

sometimes a conversation simply boils down to one person having information that another person doesn't and I'm not really sure how to approach that without being condescending

I tried to make my point in several different ways until all that was left to say was "you simply do not understand this game"

when I'm met with confident arrogance from somebody who doesn't understand the basics of how to build in this game and is presenting misinformation in their arguments eventually I just stop caring about being nice

[steady nimbus]

Well, you two may have more in common than you think, then.

[zinc comet]

it's just that one person knows what they're talking about. pretty big difference

I'm not gonna go up to somebody with thousands of hours of experience as a beginner and be like "you are wrong and I am right" I am gonna approach it with curiosity and try to understand

I'm not just an arrogant jerk to everybody for no reason

[steady nimbus]

Uh-huh...
So, what was it you just said about confident arrogance?
Because it's precisely what you're displaying.
He's a confident jackass, but one thing he is not, is straight arrogant.
I've seen him do some stupidly effective stuff in a lot of games with things that are by all logic garbage tier. 🤣
Doesn't excuse him being a stubborn git.
I'm not gonna take sides, but I'd say you both suck terribly at communication. 😋

[wanton cedar]

Oh, bite me.

[zinc comet]

I mean I'm only displaying arrogance because this is a situation where I have an incredibly deep understanding of the game and genuinely know what I'm talking about and I have somebody who is new and doesn't understand the basic foundations of builds in this game telling me something that is incorrect like I'm not really sure how to approach that without being like "I know what I am talking about and you don't"

[wanton cedar]

Fine.
I'm sorry I dismissed your active knowledge in the mechanics.
I never intended to insult, but in your own words, my patience has limits.

And yeah, I'm extremely stubborn.

I'm still not unmuting him.

[zinc comet]

the person who has probably (almost definitely?) the most hours in carmilla of anybody in the world is saying the same thing as me too, like some things just aren't subjective and sometimes we can defer to people who have experience

[steady nimbus]

@zinc comet
Then just ignore him, and respond to other new players that aren't stubborn.

@wanton cedar
You'll change your mind, and you know I'm right.

[zinc comet]

yeah I mean I get baited easily by people being wrong about this game

[steady nimbus]

It's just a game.
It's not going to hurt anyone.

@wanton cedar you hear that, bub?

[zinc comet]

but neither should me explaining why something isn't good

[steady nimbus]

Nor should someone finding value in something that you consider to be not good.
If it works for him, then let him cook.
I've known TOG for years, if he's confident it's an effective piece of kit, I'm inclined to believe him.
Whether it's considered top tier or not, really doesn't matter.
If it fits his play style, and he can use it effectively, then what difference does it make to you (stating repeatedly that you just know better) if he finds use with it?

I don't use Carmilla, can't stand the attack patterns, I like my little Nord.
Shields are too much fun. 😋

[zinc comet]

I mean I guess in time when he learns how to build around the special itself he will realise that onslaught damage is extremely bad in comparison to just doing more specials

of course it will feel decent comparatively if he has no resources dedicated to special damage itself, not even the primary talent (go for the throat) but once he is capable of making builds that focus actual strengths it will become clear

if the whole build is bad then the weakness of onslaught won't be as evident

[steady nimbus]

Dude, seriously, let it go.
This isn't some world defining thing, it's a video game.
I don't blame him for ditching, anymore, and I'm not gonna press him to unblock you, at this point.
You're being quite insufferable. 🫤
On top of that, you don't know the guy, and you've certainly never seen what the maniac does when he plays games like this.
He finds odd quirks, often game-breaking ones.
I get that you're proud of your time invested in the game, we all have at least one title like that kicking around in our respective collections, but it doesn't give anyone the right to be a jerk about it.

I'm in agreement with what he said, if it works, then it's a good build for the person using it.

You've made your point, you probably know more than the devs.
Now, let it go.
Good grief.

[frigid gate]

"it's a video game."

the hypocrisy of this argument, whenever it is being brought up in these debates, which it always is, is endlessly amusing to me like your friend wasnt doing the EXACT same thing.. arguing about his build/experiences this whole time

as Andrew mentioned, this whole thread is dedicated just for carmilla debate, so we all are doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing here

[zinc comet]

yeah if people bring up talents in the carmilla thread for talent discussion I am going to discuss the talent. am I just supposed to give everybody a gold star and say nice job sweetie when they use a talent in their runs?

if somebody is talking about onslaught being comparable to special in a run where they didn't take go for the throat, didn't build for crit damage, didn't take balor's eye with charges, didn't get the cooldown super effect, didn't take jack of diamonds, basically didn't invest anything at all into the things that make special good, and is then calling me a jerk for saying actually onslaught is a lot worse when you actually make a build it's like what the hell are we doing here lol

I tried to explain how builds work and why onslaught isn't a strong talent in the context of actual carmilla builds (not necessarily what is meta/optimal but just what is good and how things work and why onslaught/special isn't a relevant combination) and I was misrepresented as if I'm telling people they can't play the game however they want

now I'm being misrepresented as if I'm acting like the sky is falling when I'm just speaking normally

[steady nimbus]

Nah, I'm not playing that little game.
As you said, it's a discussion on Carmilla, and he proffered his opinion on a skill.

Then was effectively berated for it.

[zinc comet]

I never berated him I just explained why he was wrong about the two abilities being comparable and why. he was the one who reacted emotionally to that why am I the villain here

[steady nimbus]

I'll leave you guys to it, and we'll keep our opinions to ourselves moving forward.
I don't think he'll have an issue with that, either.

[frigid gate]

I dont think theres a mutual exclusivity sitting in there... we dont talk about stuff here apriori.. everything anyone with opinion says here boils down to the skills of a player.. I wouldnt be saying what I am saying if I had no skills with carmilla

[steady nimbus]

Again, I can see why he left.

[frigid gate]

I can see that too, just as I can see that he was mostly wrong

[steady nimbus]

Wow.
Yeah, you two have fun.
I'll be hanging out with the other idiots. 😚

More my speed, clearly.

[zinc comet]

what do people want from us

[frigid gate]

someone people just want to see the drama in everything I suppose, even if its not there...

[frigid gate]

you might think people come here for advivces, but no, they come looking for yesmen, praises and head pats

[zinc comet]

from now on I will regard all opinions as equally valid

[frigid gate]

I think u suck

[zinc comet]

valid

[paper ivy]

I like to approach talents like onslaught thinking how can I make this talent the best it can be. Typically it is on my "avoid if possible" list, but I've been thinking giving it a go again lately.

Haven't really paid attention if it gives good amount of blood or not. Only things in Carmilla's kit that require blood are Power, Defense with troll bats that aggro everything and Ult1 but typically you trait and use same blood for power or defense anyway.

If it is any good for blood gain my intuition would be to do Defense or Power focused build and use Onslaught for blood and chip damage in between casts.

Damage scaling wise It is kind of in the same boat as Snow Queen icy cores in that the "cooldown" is on special (and power for Ice Cores) but damage is attack.

[frigid gate]

I tried multiple onslaught-focused builds, i tried to make the talent as useful as possible... At the end of the day, every build became pure special build and if i still wanted to push it hard into onslaught damage, i would have had to pick worse items from my chests.. its like... I can make a good build.. or i can make a great build, coz game allows it in my run.. why should i settle with the worse one? Unless you just wanna have fun cool build

[paper ivy]

Onslaught gives zero blood 😂

Figured I would have found use for it earlier if it gave any

[paper ivy]

Doing joker scaling it doesn't feel wasted, but if I had Injection instead it would do more. Bleed damage with Razor Claws is barely larger than what Defense does without Dispersion.

[zinc comet]

and also the problem with joker scaling is that you're giving up cooldown which is lowering your output

[frigid gate]

Ofc it doesnt.. it would be great if you could swipe through whole camp and get full tank... But they wanted to make irrelevant, deaf talent.. it is what it is

[paper ivy]

Zero stagger as well

[frigid gate]

I know.. but its hard to argue against "empiric evidence"

[wanton cedar]

May want to double check that, every boss took heavy stagger from it on my run.

[wanton cedar]

Maybe they work differently from enemies, I don't know, I'm just a clueless noob. 🙃

[paper ivy]

This is amount of stagger that it does

That one yellow pixel in stagger bar

[wanton cedar]

Still going, eh?
Hope it's still fun.

[frigid gate]

That last voodoo doll hurts my soul 🥲

[frigid gate]

You are still going blood.. i wasnt responding to you

[wanton cedar]

Honestly, I have no clue, then.
Maybe my run was just bugged, it ripped through boss stamina.

[frigid gate]

Maybe time to give it up, what do you think?

[wanton cedar]

Yeah, because you're not being a little twit with the "empiric evidence" comment.

[paper ivy]

Bosses don't really have a stagger bar. Ch3 boss seems like it does but it is actually damage based

[wanton cedar]

Guess that's it then.

Aaand muted.

@paper ivy not you, you're not being a twit.

[frigid gate]

I am not.. because i am not the one "seeing things"... I KNOW it does like no stagger

[zinc comet]

he also clown/knob reacted an earlier comment from you. people like this are so annoying. instigating then playing the victim

[frigid gate]

Half of these infantile elements out themselves from the server within few weeks, other half realizes they are not getting the attention they deserve and just give up slightly later... Its the same story over and over again

[zinc comet]

this comment acknowledges that it can still be a good build and also says it can be a fun cool build but that is not enough apparently?

[frigid gate]

Comes fresh for the advice, gets advice, decides to disagree because why not, gets shafted with numbers, evidence and experience, proceeds with childish behaviour in a wannabe polemic, dramatic exit...

[zinc comet]

still coming back to clown react comments three dramatic exits later

[frigid gate]

Wanted to do a quick carmilla pure special game.. had to pick "onslaught" lvl 2 coz it was between it and blood reserve...

upgraded it from common to legendary at chapter 2 after first day
got razor claws at lvl 8
no optional boss chapter 1/2 so no balors for most of the game
was trying to weave in attacks whenever possible, until late game where I got 0.6 sec cooldown on my special
ATTACK: 12% overall dmg
special: 64%

this was while trying to "speedrun" the game, so I couldnt pump my special damage at the end by getting dozen of other thunderstones etc...

15:1

[zinc comet]

you won the run with it so it seems good to me

plus it killed the little guy who was at 1hp so it's effective

15:1 is subjective when you think about it