I love VASMR but like
#Binary Supernovae (World Cup Finalist)
calm furnace
lone marten
Yeah but now if good mess up
calm furnace
you need a script built around Vizier for it to be fine
calm furnace
this was already true
lone marten
No one would expect it
neon schooner
Vizier is my little child I would never release it into the real world
cursive pebble
so sad, I was trying to order the emoji's to 
as that's the whole point of quadjank to me
calm furnace
Just summon the Vizier
oh true
calm furnace
so sad, I was trying to order the emoji's to <:vigormortis:586693973569961994> <...
fair
truely
BSN needs to go [-1 Minion] and just accept that 7-9 is unplayable
neon schooner
Too late for that
calm furnace
true 😔
neon schooner
That's something in the back of my mind for after the competition
If I get decently far I'll leave the djinnlegger as is
If not then I'll prob make a version like that
I'd rather do will with this rule tho ‼️
neon schooner
No :3
calm furnace
cringe :3
neon schooner
but free :3
neon schooner
Look
Just because you're right
[this user has gone to sleep. check in tomorrow if you want to hear more]
lone marten
that's a weird set up ability
floral arch
That longtext game mentioned before I've ran.
(fool exed on MM day)
young loom
good is already pressed for votes, a demon neighboring 2 good players having -2 good votes when nominated is literally game winning for evil
marionette is bonkers broken
haughty tangle
oh my god
young loom
this is what you miss if you don't play livetext
open hollow
in a 1 minion game there's no minions? unless summoner?
floral arch
The 2nd Demon replaces a Townsfolk, not a Minion.
fringe crescent
excellent question
calm furnace
is that balanced
idts
weak ermine
ok i think the worst thing about GF is
you cant kill outsiders
but the extra demon can replace an outsider
and the GF learns this
opening up two unkillable outsider bluffs
calm furnace
but the extra demon can replace an outsider
no it can’t? the extra demon replaces a townsfolk always
weak ermine
yes it can
wait is this the unconventional home ruling my irl group used
no, theres nothing in the djinn rule that says what the demon replaces
floral arch
Yeah, Djinn rule doesn't specify itself, but "Clarifications" does
calm furnace
no, theres nothing in the djinn rule that says what the demon replaces
the rules of Blood On the Clocktower mandate it
any modification takes it out of the townsfolk
floral arch
Actually, yeah, that's true.
weak ermine
thats not how it works with legion
this setup effect takes from the outsiders
i think (without godfather) the implicit [-1 to 0] outsider clause is a much needed balance change
LoT and kazali take from both townsfolk and outsiders, but explicitly state [+? to -? outsiders]
calm furnace
thats not how it works with legion
what about choirboy
weak ermine
what about choirboy
my point is that it works both ways
legion, kazali, LoT take from tf & outsiders, chiorboy and VI take just from TF
calm furnace
my point is that it works both ways
I think that kazali and LoT and Legion must take from Outsiders for differrent reasons
weak ermine
there is no established convention here
calm furnace
if it’s possible you mist take from townsfolk first
calm furnace
there is no established convention here
all normal setup mod takes from townsfolk
calm furnace
if there’s no established convention why can’t baron take from minions?
weak ermine
thats an interesting idea for a "yes but dont" script
though its not RAW
some characters work one way, other characters work the other way
calm furnace
thats an interesting idea for a "yes but dont" script
so then the godfather can remove BSN’s own +1 demon?
weak ermine
there is no mandate for BSN to work the way you want it to
weak ermine
so then the godfather can remove BSN’s own +1 demon?
no, because it explicitly says in the almanac that it cant
calm furnace
what
weak ermine
fun fact about the djinn rule of BSN: hystrex made it
hystrex can change it to be whatever he wants
its not "how it works in blood on the clocktower" because i can name 3 characters where it works differently
calm furnace
hystrex can change it to be whatever he wants
in the same way that demons have the learn each other, [+1 Demon] has to come from townsfolk, note that all the [+1] modifications come out of the townsfolk
weak ermine
in the same way that demons have the learn each other, [+1 Demon] has to come fr...
demons, RAW, dont learn eachother
calm furnace
sure but you learn them in demon info
calm furnace
old riot no longer exists
the rules implications still exist
weak ermine
i mean if you'd rather do a separate demon info for every single demon
causing them to all uniquely register as a minion to each other legion
go ahead
if you're homebrewing around the edges of the game's rules, do whatever the fuck you want
calm furnace
if that was true then Hystrex can say “yeah [+1 Demon] replaces a minion” but everyone knows that that isn’t fair and changing how the rule is
calm furnace
if you're homebrewing around the edges of the game's rules, do whatever the fuck...
sure fair
weak ermine
if that was true then Hystrex can say “yeah [+1 Demon] replaces a minion” but ev...
totally fair i think
on this script 😭
calm furnace
no yeah it’s more balanced and Hystrex admits that
weak ermine
i think the "demon learns demon" and "extra demon replaces outsider" are rulings that arent really core to the game
homebrewers are free to decide what they want them to be
my local group always plays this where the demons dont learn eachother, which leads to a FAR more balanced experience esp with magician
calm furnace
yes
nerfing the evil team in Binary Supernovae, the most evil sided script in the World Cup, will make it more balanced
weak ermine
that game really got to us
calm furnace
eh it’s been a few games for me
weak ermine
i actually made a homebrew inspired by the "demon doesnt learn demon" ruling
Wiretap (tf)
Minion(s) and Demon(s) think only 0-1 other Minion or Demon is evil. Each player can only be learnt once.
where the ST is intended to set up starting info in a line or a loop
calm furnace
😭
Comintern info learning ahh
(Old nwc comintern was “you start knowing one other comintern”)
weak ermine
fair point actually, i know very little about nwc
ive looked at it like once 😭
i actually think this is way better than comintern but its not playtested yet
calm furnace
also I think you are applying the wrong precendent to BSN’s setup mod, every single [+1 ____] takes from the townsfolk
shit
weak ermine
i think homebrew can be ruled however it wants to be
and if you or hystrex disagree, ill simply run "better binary supernovae" with my own homebrew changes
(i wont call it that im joking)
calm furnace
this is actually djinn not bootlegger so it can’t checkmate
weak ermine
GRAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
i think i agree with ben's reservations about a homebrew competition
creating "canonical" versions of homebrews (which are way less tested than anything official) is just really bad
BSN is great but, at least for now, it's attributed the canonical idea of a 2 demon script to hystrex
idk it's also great to see homebrew highlighted 😭
inland plover
sure but you learn them in demon info
Technically you're not supposed to, which is why legion + magician works
Actually I'm not sure about that
calm furnace
Technically you're not supposed to, which is why legion + magician works
old riot
neon schooner
is that balanced
No :3 but I can't change it
open hollow
oopsies
neon schooner
req is right about evil info, Sophia is right about setup text
calm furnace
req is right about evil info, Sophia is right about setup text
if Sophia is right about setup text you can just say "[+1 Demon] replaces a minion"
peak birch
I totally voted this.
Spoilers: ||I didn't..I voted for the Seat 7 one..sowwy||
weak ermine
req is right about evil info, Sophia is right about setup text
I'm looking and I'm not sure I've found where it says anything about a demon learning a second demon
calm furnace
I'm looking and I'm not sure I've found where it says anything about a demon lea...
you wake "the demon," the definition of "the demon" is all alive demons
neon schooner
I totally voted this.
Spoilers: ||I didn't..I voted for the Seat 7 one..sowwy||
Voting between BSN and seat 7 isn't open yet tho???
weak ermine
you wake "the demon," the definition of "the demon" is all alive demons
ok fair actually
neon schooner
I'm looking and I'm not sure I've found where it says anything about a demon lea...
They don't explicitly learn the other demon they just wake together
weak ermine
interesting
idle marten
Idk it does feel weird to introduce TF deathmod to me...
neon schooner
wait philo recluse winning a mm day is so so funny
Good game design is another question ofc
peak birch
Voting between BSN and seat 7 isn't open yet tho???
Would vote on this
final anchor
Chambermaid
I’m almost certain
It’s been discussed a lot here and clockmaker is weird here
ruby lodge
but there chambermaid is already here
twilit sonnet
Clock might be balanced here tbh
ruby lodge
clock + recluse
final anchor
but there chambermaid is already here
Oh rlly
twilit sonnet
Ok recluse
ruby lodge
also it's a bit repetitive w/ chef
twilit sonnet
Really
final anchor
I didn’t see that
twilit sonnet
Really
final anchor
Hystrex keeps updating it 😔
twilit sonnet
shouldn’t be here
ruby lodge
like clock recluse double demon is that
you are 95% getting a small number that is objectively trash
and 5% you get a big number and win
somber mantle
Technically you're not supposed to, which is why legion + magician works
no it works because you learn them both as minions and demons, which also applies to the magician
neon schooner
Clock would be cool & reasonable here without the summoner jinx
But chef is totally fine as is
The swap I posted was in relation to an old version, I'll post that at some point
neon schooner
I think it’s just Hystrex that likes recluse here
I've gone back on that I want it off
I think it's cool on this infoscape!! And not with the evil team
neon schooner
v3 maybe?
neon schooner
Also considering the ruling where if mm turns off on a mm day good just wins
calm furnace
v3 maybe?
I think that this needs more ongoing evil finders
3 (and maybe 4 depending on who you ask) isn’t enough
actually hot take: not Imp, but Ojo is the best demon here
weak ermine
better but I still don't like gf and fool here
calm furnace
I think i would like BSN much more with something closer to CC’s info suite
neon schooner
Fun game :D evil tied off pukka #1 on the fake final day then couldn't kill the soldier, good was able to send it on her on the second final day (there would have been a third final day)
Felt very balanced & climactic
calm furnace
who won?
neon schooner
Good
calm furnace
woah
neon schooner
Pukka 2 is the blank token, she started as the math
calm furnace
I can tell
digital island
whoa, its a pithag
neon schooner
Summoner lol
neon schooner
Also considering the ruling where if mm turns off on a mm day good just wins
Ran with this ruling, mm paranoia was low even with the math & oracle taken care of immediately
cursive pebble
just make good demons
Just manually make a legion
I realized I forgot how the pithag works
Because of the summoner ruling works where it can make in play demons I forgot that the pithag cant do that
pure dagger
Also considering the ruling where if mm turns off on a mm day good just wins
Turn off?
somber mantle
pukka poisoned, killed by a demon
pure dagger
Is that not RAI? I guess I am not sure
neon schooner
It's not RAW
RAI is unclear bc it doesn't make a difference on BMR
But it's probably RAI?
young loom
pukka poisoned, killed by a demon
main one in practice is getting starpassed to as well
neon schooner
Fun game :D evil tied off pukka #1 on the fake final day then couldn't kill the ...
More on this game: the chef claimed moonchild d1 for unknown reasons and chose the math (soon to be pukka) then got beggar confirmed (the beggar got exiled) and then double tapped. He was also gambled wrong n2 leading to 2 deaths neither of which were from a demon (the assassin stabbed the innk)
And then good won because double pukka is weak, actually
Town was building ojo worlds where pukka #2 was a minion outing that powerful roles were in play, that was funny
digital island
wait, when did this chat pass https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1280673118373023805 in messages
neon schooner
Oh shoot
idle marten
And then good won because double pukka is weak, actually
That's why you put sailor in the bag with double pukka
neon schooner
25 min to stress myself out 👍
prime dagger
Being played on stream!
celest bolt
Let’s go
floral arch
just to check, RAW the two starting demons must be different?
Yep as you can't have duplicate characters during setup unless specified otherwise like VI.
desert notch
Golem is clearly an Outsider
gleaming hollow
in spoiler tags someone tell me what happened in them
neon schooner
||in game 1, they executed the soldier and the golem punched wrong which domino'd into a TPK on the mastermind day||
||in game 2 evil was really really close to winning but didnt tell the summoned demon who was who and she killed the starting demon, giving good just barely enough time to rise up on her||
the 2 demon script swings (shocker)
idle marten
||in game 1, they executed the soldier and the golem punched wrong which domino'...
|| The golem was left alive in F3 and had wasted their nom ||
neon schooner
Hangin in there
final anchor
Nooo
desert notch
huh
final anchor
What is that
young loom
Hangin in there
nuh uh, supernovae sweep
neon schooner
real
neon schooner
What is that
If I get at least 60 points then I'm definitely in the top 8
42 or less and I'm definitely eliminated
neon schooner
B3 token subs:
- Magician -> Mayor
- Golem -> Drunk
- Summoner -> Pit-Hag
- Ojo -> Fang Gu
(if you need a second Pukka token, use the blank one)
Thoughts?
Technically you might need 5 imp tokens but if we get to that point I think the ST knows the gamestate
floral arch
I didn't fully process "token subs" at first and was like "wtf are those changes"
neon schooner
If you pull the mayor token, you're the magician and have the magician ability. If you see mayor as a bluff, magician is not in play
floral arch
If you pull the mayor token, you're the magician and have the magician ability. ...
Yeah, I understand that
I just thought for a brief moment it was script changes
floral arch
Pretty solid sub tokens
neon schooner
Every once in a while I still think about subbing fool for sailor
neon schooner
just in case i make the mistake of running the sailor version tonight
neon schooner
neon schooner
neon schooner
Token substitutions! Works with the base set and no extra tokens, & includes the Djinn rule on the back
neon schooner
Token substitutions! Works with the base set and no extra tokens, & includes the...
probably wont have the chance to print before f3con (im there tmrw) but alas
pure dagger
Recluse out, Oracle in, something else out?
neon schooner
Recluse out, Oracle in, something else out?
Seamstress out
neon schooner
not enough recurring info, evil just crushes them
You know full well we can't fit more 😭
Unless you want TC back
Even then what gets cut
calm furnace
You know full well we can't fit more 😭
VI, Savant, General
neon schooner
There's pretty explicit problems with all of those 😭
calm furnace
There's pretty explicit problems with all of those 😭
...which are idr them
neon schooner
VI and empath can't coexist in context, VI is too good of a bluff for evil (which is why recluse is off), this misinfo suite can't hold a VI
Savant doesn't have all that much to learn, severely unfocuses the script, and typically neither confirms players nor points to evil players, restricting worlds instead
(math confirms players half the time btw)
General is largely just diet oracle, also adds the layer of ST based info that this script doesn't want, and exacerbates swinginess
pure dagger
"Can't coexist in context"?
neon schooner
It's way way way too strong of a combination
They also just kinda do the same thing?
pure dagger
Mayhaps
calm furnace
It's way way way too strong of a combination
two demons is way way way too strong a combination
tbf I think that Empath -> VI would make me feel better abt the script
*probably
neon schooner
Sure but empath and vi combine in a way that's not really fun? Like how do you still claim to be good after that
neon schooner
tbf I think that Empath -> VI would make me feel better abt the script
Again the bluff is just too strong I think
neon schooner
Token substitutions! Works with the base set and no extra tokens, & includes the Djinn rule on the back
neon schooner
Token substitutions! Works with the base set and no extra tokens, & includes the...
(minor update)
Here's the current version of the script!!
neon schooner
Here's the current version of the script!!
calm furnace
Here's the current version of the script!!
Apprentice and Scapegoat are too stronk
should be 
imo
maybe 
neon schooner
oh ive already specified on the website that travs dont really work with this script
use beggar. if you must add a second, use deviant
the others break it less than average
(bishop golem is particularly bad)
pure dagger
86% of the votes is the highest anyone has managed so far from one match, so I dunno what would need to happen for one to get 89%
neon schooner
Warrens rolls legion (it was taken off script immediately)
I don't see it happening yeah
2nd place, however, is very possible
pure dagger
I'd say probable, but we'll see I guess
neon schooner
Final group match in 45 min!!! https://m.twitch.tv/pattersttv/home?tt_content=channel&tt_medium=mobile_web_share
neon schooner
what an ending to the group rounds 😭
young loom
Zets i love you but SUPERNOVAE SWEEP
neon schooner
open hollow
whar
polar tide
Beautiful end
open hollow
how did this happen
polar tide
Summoner summoned a gambler that died to their ability. Arwell choose himself as Ojo
neon schooner
Yet another reason for summoner to go before gambler 
(it's not a big issue)
The missing context here is that patters very much goaded arwell into the self kill after seeing what happened
ruby lodge
why did arwell self kill tho
neon schooner
Iirc there was some suspicion on him and the plan was to remove the target
Which is a perfectly valid plan if you have another living demon
tame ledge
You try things and sometimes they don’t work out
ruby lodge
Which is a perfectly valid plan if you have another living demon
summon arwell into imp then selfkill
🤓
inner crag
I never thought about that with gambler and summoner
This is fun fact
neon schooner
YIPPEE
Oh I lost to the warrens lol
GG zets :D
Didn't lose by enough to knock me out tho
(48-52, very close)
digital island
now we lose to stowed away, but its fine because im putting a heretic in play
floral arch
Congrats 
neon schooner
now we lose to stowed away, but its fine because im putting a heretic in play
hey just because it's true doesn't mean we gotta talk about it
i love this page it's so pretty and it's even cooler now that im on it 🔥
young loom
binary superno
prime dagger
:00000
floral arch
The Djinn's bar is peak
prime dagger
The war
flint harbor
hystrex going the distance :o congrats on making it to the knockout phase!!
trained killer and this are gonna be my two champions fr fr one of you better win this
final anchor
🥳
celest bolt
The Phantom D
tame ledge
hey just because it's true doesn't mean we gotta talk about it
Will do my very best to give both you and caffeine a strong and fair showing 🫡
neon schooner
Tyyy :)
ruby lodge
i love this page it's so pretty and it's even cooler now that im on it 🔥
coincidentally the first 4 scripts all have no "the"
and the last 4 all have "the"
neon schooner
Incredible
ruby lodge
The Binary Supernovae
shut kettle
Token substitutions! Works with the base set and no extra tokens, & includes the...
this spacing pains me
neon schooner
I freehanded it 😔
polar tide
In my eyes, for what it is worth, it is true art.
shut kettle
I freehanded it 😔
you should have your free hands removed for your crimes
neon schooner
I got the email to make changes
I prob won't make any
If there's anything ppl think I absolutely must change, tell me now
open hollow
three demons
shut kettle
If there's anything ppl think I absolutely must change, tell me now
have you considered sailo- gets shot to death
hollow condor
have you considered sailo- *gets shot to death*
neon schooner
have you considered sailo- *gets shot to death*
Must've drank with an evil player
gleaming hollow
If there's anything ppl think I absolutely must change, tell me now
add legion
neon schooner
Real and true
calm furnace
If there's anything ppl think I absolutely must change, tell me now
hmm Assassin MM is kinda oppressive
neon schooner
SW doesn't work so MM is the only possible anti swing mechanism 😔
And assassin isn't exactly negotiable
young loom
If there's anything ppl think I absolutely must change, tell me now
add the big barnacle
neon schooner
Doesn't work because the setup text removes other demons from the script which means the djinnlegger setup text can't be satisfied meaning there are no valid bags 😔
Otherwise I'd totally add it
neon schooner
Oh true
deep ermine
Squid game?
neon schooner
Squid game??
What does this mean
Ooh I know I'll change my 3 demons to lleech dashii monsta
idle marten
so only 2 legion
It’s only +1 demon. Not 2 demons. So it makes an all legion game possible
But insta loss if any legion are exed
deep ermine
You gotta watch the TK vs BR match to get the reference 😂
neon schooner
Guess I will
idle marten
Ooh I know I'll change my 3 demons to lleech dashii monsta
You’re missing big barnacle
desert notch
?
desert notch
||SAVED BY THE PHILO||
desert notch
||...gg?||
digital island
this is BSN swinginess at its finest
desert notch
||nope||
neon schooner
I HAVEN'T SEEN THE GAME WHAT HAPPENED
(don't tell me I'm gonna watch it)
Waking up to this in the finalists server sure is an experience tho
neon schooner
...this may be my downfall
floral arch
What happened?
young loom
in the end, he died as he lived: with an empath 2 between both demons
neon schooner
I still gotta watch game 3
However the fact that there was a game 3 maybe says things
neon schooner
What happened?
||golem punch on the demon by mistake with no attempt to lift followed by full apathy execution with no attempt to lift||
neon schooner
Vote vote vote!!! https://botc.app/worldcup/39
shut kettle
oof it’s against stowed away? i’ll have to watch the games then
pure dagger
Dang it was a close vote
young loom
celest bolt
Both script were very good. Sadly BSN had to go :((
neon schooner
one percentage point
Unfortunate
Stowed is prob my top contender to win at this point so I'm not mad or anything
idle marten
You also did get hurt by random chance not being in your favor tbh
verbal urchin
gg's, super close match, if it's any consolation I invite you to look at how many comments our script's threads have on them 😆
neon schooner
Lol
I mean that's prob bc I've used this thread for a lot of building the script
But yeah GG :D
digital island
after the world cup is over, do you think these scripts will still be played?
floral arch
Not sure really.
Well, in longtext on server there was only 1 game of WC finalist script afaik.
I think it did increase popularity of Bootlegger core scripts.
gleaming flax
after the world cup is over, do you think these scripts will still be played?
If the last World Cup is any indication, yes. I still see/run my last World Cup script, Star Pass All Stars fairly regularly, and I also see the winner Boozling and a few others run quite a bit.
neon schooner
after the world cup is over, do you think these scripts will still be played?
I sure hope so
young loom
should've made 16 alternate accounts </3
idle marten
All voting for Stowed Away right?
And then pointed to them as proof the election was stolen?
calm furnace
BSN lost by only a difference of 15 votes
holy shit
neon schooner
neon schooner
shut kettle
the djinnlegger icon is so detailed compared to the character icons that it looks really weird to me
lone marten
So
What's your thought on the djinnlegger
Are you going to change it or keep it the same?
idle marten
Barista summoner anyone?
Idk why this thought just popped into my head for this script
neon schooner
Are you going to change it or keep it the same?
I might make a BSN lite where it replaces a minion
But also
I don't think I will actually
I like the idea of "everything matters about twice as much"
For this version of the script it's definitely not changing
Like, I could make a more beginner friendly script with 2 demons as a gimmick and it would be fine
But I prefer the advanced version
And yes, this is definitely advanced
The mechanics aren't so complex but in terms of actually playing it it's high level
Every single thing you do matters so much more
It's almost all fundamentals, turned up to 11
this is a script to lock in on, basically
and i like that
it wasnt what i envisioned when i first made it but i think it's good that a script like this exists and has some publicity
and it happens to have my name on it, how did that happen
i've "started" a retrospective on bsn and basically i'll say all that and more in it
lone marten
No change to allow starpass to recluse 🥺
neon schooner
recluse was such an OP bluff here
lone marten
truee
shut kettle
when is BSN 2 where the rule is “if a demon dies by execution, their team loses…” and has recluse and pit hag
neon schooner
fnuuy
nah BSN 2 is the script im currently working on which is hybrid homebrew and has pukka ojo mouldwarp godfather golem tinker soldier
pukka is also one of the only sources of poison there
idle marten
Skink too right? and barrowfog?
neon schooner
no
ruby lodge
I might make a BSN lite where it replaces a minion
no
imagine knowing 0 minion is in play
idle marten
only if no summoner
neon schooner
I'd explicitly recommend to only play that with at least 10 players
idle marten
I might make a BSN lite where it replaces a minion
Also mario/drunk would go hard here
ruby lodge
only if no summoner
summoner self-replacing on 7~9p:
Also i love bsn just bc it beats the meta of "rolling dices has a decent chance of winning"
shut kettle
I'd explicitly recommend to only play that with at least 10 players
oh yeah speaking of, how well does bsn work at low counts
shut kettle
3v4 sounds perfect idk what you mean lol
neon schooner
We tried it once and a good player dead voting on a demon was the action that lost the game
fringe crescent
8p is untested to my knowledge
The accidental -1 minion was 8p
fringe crescent
The first bsn game I saw on the app had the players assume the demon replaced a minion
Good won but it was basically fair
ruby lodge
how was it fair with 1 minion replaced
neon schooner
Good won but it was basically fair
"basically fair" I don't believe you
Regardless it's got script health problems that aren't balance
open hollow
no minion abilties in a base 1 minion game feels bad
calm furnace
didn't evil win that gmae
lone marten
no minion abilties in a base 1 minion game feels bad
It feels different
Not necessarily bad
And you have Summoner
So you would still have 1 Minion to solve for
neon schooner
not having an assassin or godfather is really rough ngl
neon schooner
yeah
open hollow
And you have Summoner
Summoners really weird
there's an argument you couldn't even put it in the bag
neon schooner
Hmmmmm I'm thinking about princess
It's a decelerant
Leaning towards no tho
Philo princess is interesting but probably a bad thing
One player controlling the first nom is also extremely strong
I don't think it's worth
floral arch
Midgame Princess sounds a bit too strong, true
neon schooner
Oh princess summoner, how did I not even think about that
Like it's not as bad here but it's still bad
floral arch
Princess just exing Demon D1 and triggering MM is funny :3
neon schooner
Funny, but not good for this script
floral arch
But hard to fight
neon schooner
Yeah ok no princess
This script can't afford to be funny unfortunately
This is high intensity clocktower
idle marten
This script can't afford to be funny unfortunately
You should make an oops all funny version
that isn't just waltz
neon schooner
that's just djinnbucket
idle marten
Free summoner bluff
polar tide
the demon is any alive demon so yeah. I would say so.
idle marten
So how would Wraith fit on here? I feel like it could do something but not sure what
polar tide
Finalized 😮
Are the Djinn scripts becoming "official" scripts? As in added ot the website?
young loom
probably not?
polar tide
oh so its final from Hystrex's POV. Makes sense
neon schooner
Yeah WC is separate from the 15ish scripts that include all the carousel characters
polar tide
I knew that but I was wondering from who's perspective it was final.
neon schooner
WC25 is a collection to showcase the rules, the carousel 15 (that's what I'm calling it) is closer to an accessibility thing so ppl can just find a script and play it
neon schooner
I knew that but I was wondering from who's perspective it was final.
Yeah all good
Back at the quarter finals I knew the script was probably finalized
But at this point it would take a lot for me to change anything
idle marten
A new demon that fits perfectly, perhaps?
polar tide
similar to ||hannibal|| 🙂
idle marten
Or || skink ofc ||
peak birch
||Hannibal from FoR 👁️||
woeful vector
Chat, ||Hannibal|| doesn’t work here 😭
Also I don’t really see how a Marionette demon adds to the script
desert notch
what
neon schooner
it doesnt work at all no
and marionette demon is really far from what the script is trying to do
and this script is deliberately super streamlined
theres a LOT that this script doesnt have
neon schooner
Definitive set of script files!!
ruby lodge
rlly bro
Imma find a chance to run this in my group
I doubt its balance but the idea and script vibe deserves champion in my heart
(I still doubt its balance)
young loom
It's as balanced as you can get a script with two demons and an extra evil
shut kettle
50% of games evil gets absolutely shitclowned by good, 50% of games good gets utterly dismantled by evil
the only way to get a swingier perfect balance is heretic
neon schooner
Yeah no the script is swingy as hell
Lots of people think it's really evil sided and lots of people think it's really good sided
From what I've seen I'm pretty sure it's balanced overall
But it'll also depend on the group. Evil will win in inexperienced groups, then it turns good sided once players realize they can just vote on evil players, and then settles into a better balance point once both teams have learned how the script functions
I think
(please summon ojos more often I barely ever see it and it's one of the strongest things you can do)
It's very much a script where everything you do matters as well. By roughly twice as much as normal
young loom
if you don't like the balance you can run the luis rule (demons don't learn each other during Demon info) which I personally like a lot
idle marten
Ok this is a really random thought, but how is snarmer as a demonfinder here?
open hollow
the old SC would know the other demon and could just win no?
oh the new demon can kill the old one off
if they know them
neon schooner
I did carefully consider snake charmer. And everything else lol
young loom
still a better idea than sailor was
neon schooner
IT'S FUNNY
ruby lodge
But courtier is also funny
neon schooner
Courtier would be on if not for summoner
?
celest citrus
A Hystrex Storytelling Video!! Felt Side Up’s next big project is the DOUBLE DEMON SPECIAL! We’ll be playing Binary Supernovae, the Double Demon Script with Double the stakes and Double the fun! Can Good catch evil when they’re moving at double the speed with Two Demons on the Team. TWO DEMONS!?!?! Sounds like a watch to us! Hystrex can be seen TOMORROW in Part 1 before he Storytells solo in Part 2 on November 20th in what he calls THE most enjoyable game he’s seen with his script thus far!!! Watch the trailer here and subscribe to Felt Side Up to get notified when these videos drop!!
idle marten
was there an atheist claim game 2?
neon schooner
no lol
idle marten
missed opportunity lol
neon schooner
remember what i said about definitive files
yeah im updating them ever so slightly
(should be actually definitive this time, i just made summoner's setup text [-1 Demon])
neon schooner
ruby lodge
maybe i'll propose professor on bsn
neon schooner
not a bad pick, just too strong here
The revival isn't the problem it's the fact that that player is hard confirmed to be a townsfolk. Even if they get summoned you can just use that knowledge to find the other Demon, via chef empath and ft
idle marten
Hey, so I just realized the wording of the / 
is very interesting in the context of BSN, and was wondering if you had any thoughts @neon schooner ?
Not necessarily recommending adding vigor to BSN, but thought it was interesting to consider
shut kettle
“A Mastermind that has their ability keeps it if the Vigormortis dies.” for reference
fascinating
idle marten
fascinating
is this sarcasm?
shut kettle
no
i see the vision
vig kills mastermind, other demon is executed, vig kills self
fire
neon schooner
I mean that's cool but clearly against the intent of the jinx
It could be scripted for tho sure
idle marten
Hey VIg/MM was overly weak for years due to an overspecific textual reading. Let it be a little strong due to the way they worded it
(also it only really applies in multi demon contexts so it's not super common anyway)
shut kettle
I mean that's cool but clearly against the intent of the jinx
jinxes are always supposed to be interpreted exactly as written wdym
idle marten
like the old 
/ 
jinx, obvi
neon schooner
jinxes are always supposed to be interpreted exactly as written wdym
Oh my bad I forgot
Ur both correct actually
World Cup Loser Hystrex misses once again
shut kettle
i’m always saying this
idle marten
too bad world cup loser hystrex doesn't have the good opinions of Quadjank author hystrex
shut kettle
I’M ALWAYS SAYING THIS
neon schooner
True
floral arch
True
lone marten
Last time I was in conversation with so many minions, it was a Typhon game
neon schooner
Nah we reject modernity, return to vizier winning on the spot if a good player votes on them
shut kettle
New jinxes means Quadjank doesn't work anymore
uhhh get with the times quadjank’s been technically busted since alch update :p
lone marten
quadjank has been busted since its release wdym?
shut kettle
TRUE
neon schooner
TRUE
lone marten
i have in fact considered it's based
that doesn't mean it was busted since its release
they aren't mutually exlcusive
shut kettle
basted
shut kettle
no
neon schooner
young loom
You guys should watch this 👁️👁️
ok
celest citrus
You got there before me lolol!
quartz bison
Last time I was in conversation with so many minions, it was a Typhon game
Info out of date L, Proxi is now red
lone marten
Who put a Scarlet Woman in my Typhon game??
shrewd flax
How much faster are games with this script than games of TB at the same player count?
neon schooner
Generally I let days last a little longer on this script, which means they don't quite go by twice as fast
It's still faster though, I wanna say it's over in about 80% of the time if both go to final day
shrewd flax
At a superficial read, one thing I dislike about this script is the presence of certain characters: Chef, Mathematician, Butler, Tinker, Moonchild, Ojo. I have certain personal objections to them all. I will think more about the script in depth later.
How does the Golem balance as an Outsider here?
floral arch
The Golem speeds up a game by killing a player and becoming a player that evil doesn't need to kill to win, which is pretty harmful on script with forced extra evil and around double killpower.
twilit sonnet
At a superficial read, one thing I dislike about this script is the presence of ...
Faster tpk
neon schooner
The Golem speeds up a game by killing a player and becoming a player that evil d...
That, and they can get summoned later so they're not even confirmed unless they spend late 👀
twilit sonnet
That, and they can get summoned later so they're not even confirmed unless they ...
Which makes it worse
neon schooner
At a superficial read, one thing I dislike about this script is the presence of ...
I totally understand disliking characters, but I promise they all mesh together really nicely here. I'm happy to go in depth about each if you'd like
twilit sonnet
and even more outsidery
neon pelican
At a superficial read, one thing I dislike about this script is the presence of ...
These are like the softest objections to characters ever, my group hates with their life wizard, atheist, legion (sometimes)
shrewd flax
The Golem speeds up a game by killing a player and becoming a player that evil d...
Recently, I discussed Golem on the server, and someone pointed out that Golem is basically never harmful because you just treat F4 as F3 with an alive Golem. I agree with that line of thinking. Would that apply to BSN?
twilit sonnet
Recently, I discussed Golem on the server, and someone pointed out that Golem is...
That advice breaks with other multikills
shrewd flax
(Assume that Golem waited to nominate until D3)
neon schooner
BSN has a bunch of death modification, so you don't consistently have a final 3 or 4-- you don't even have a consistent final 5 always
floral arch
On multikill/extra evil scripts the advice is harder to use as there's no consistent final day.
neon schooner
Good also really needs their nominations on this script. Not being able to nominate on final 7 can absolutely be the difference between victory and defeat here
twilit sonnet
If golem hits a good player
You’ve taken out 2 players you need to remove for a TPK
And you still have another outsider
Which will likely also cause death
neon schooner
I will say, golem is pretty emblematic of how swingy this script can get. I've seen it lose several games, but I've also seen it win a few because they hit a demon
neon pelican
Yeah this script tends to make the hardest "final 5 ever"
neon schooner
(and the demon never thinks to pivot to fool)
shrewd flax
Those seem like sufficient reasons for Golem to be a detriment some of the time, though still swingy.
I will have more questions about this later, but this looks like an excellent script🔥
shrewd flax
Alright, I saw the site for BSN, which is nicely done. I can't get past this, though:
This is why Mathematician is a bottom-feeder character to me, right above Heretic. The vast majority of people, including (I would guess) most people into social deduction, don't want to parse this. It's completely technical and impersonal and requires fairly comprehensive knowledge of the script to be actionable at all.
neon schooner
This was me spelling out particular cases for STs, much less something for players to learn
shrewd flax
How is someone supposed to interpret their math info if they don't know these things?
neon schooner
Math on this script boils down to "+1 every time someone gets false info or every time someone is protected"
You can play with that knowledge instead of the full list and you'll be fine
I understand if it's complicated despite that, but 1 I can confidently say it's the most complicated thing on the script mechanically, and 2 it's really integral to the script and how it functions
shrewd flax
Math on this script boils down to "+1 every time someone gets false info or ever...
Even then, you have to specify things like Fortune Teller hitting their red herring doesn't count as false info (I know this follows from Math ability, but still overly technical). It's better with that summary statement, but I hate this character anyway and was just using the list as a good illustration of why.
This is a personal preference, not a criticism of the script's cohesiveness, so I understand it being here
neon schooner
Sure
neon pelican
Mathmatician the goat
neon pelican
Ayo what happends to the demon if they get deleted
Do they remain evil or what, do they transform to summoner or another minion
floral arch
In Summoner game a Demon is replaced with Townsfolk.
neon pelican
Ohhhh i get it
ruby lodge
This is why Mathematician is a bottom-feeder character to me, right above Hereti...
any info is technical
also that reasoning is just saying ppl hate knowing more mechanics abt the game
shrewd flax
any info is technical
There's no way you can't tell the difference in technicality between Math information and Empath information, for example
shrewd flax
also that reasoning is just saying ppl hate knowing more mechanics abt the game
I hope this is ragebait because the alternative is even worse
neon schooner
hey what if we didnt antagonize ppl for disagreements
-# saying this as a server minion rather than the script author
oh also
happy new year!!
twilit sonnet
happy new year!!
One is in a different timezone as me????
shrewd flax
Imagine calling that a disagreement instead of a reductive, bad faith interpretation of what I said
neon schooner
Imagine calling that a disagreement instead of a reductive, bad faith interpreta...
no that was a pretty civil disagreement from my 3rd party perspective
ruby lodge
Also saying ppl who's into social deduction won't want to parse math interactions is just splitting "social" and "mechanical" aspects into mutually exclusive
which is false, and exceptionally false in clocktower context
-# it's less false in other sdg
idk how you see the game but clocktower is clocktower bc it has a lot interactions
and knowing and using them is like a big part that distinguish this from other sdgs
notably
twilit sonnet
-# it's less false in other sdg
in other SDGs there are only social players /j
neon pelican
Mathmatician is the perfect representation of the nerd side of the game and how it is INTEGRAL to the game depending on whats happening on the script and on a real game!
quartz bison
This is from day 2, but town lost because they were Mastermind-paranoid and didn't execute much
quartz bison
I'll ask!
ruby lodge
Peak bsn gameplay: have 1 demon sink every night so it’s always maybe mastermind
neon schooner
ooooooooooh nice
young loom
yay ojo summons!!!
ruby lodge
?
twilit sonnet
@neon schooner your planet needs you
idle marten
since when has bsn had typhon?
neon schooner
I would say that's legal yeah
But uhh if you run the BSN rule as an extra evil then I have other concerns lol
If you're running another script and using a similar rule it can be fine
ruby lodge
+2 starting extra evil 😭
neon schooner
Hey I mean goon is the honorary 25th character on BSN and it would be fine in big enough games
It's just. Yeah that's too many evil players lol
desert notch
when did lot get on BSN
twilit sonnet
Someone was simply asking the ruling
polar tide
Playing it now on stream for anyone interested!
neon schooner
Ooooh nice!!
wise moon
shrewd flax
The background image that shows up at clocktowerdotlive when you put in the BSN json is amazing
shrewd flax
I've come around to this script hard and would love to see a breakdown of how the characters interact, if you have one
polar tide
A big important note of this script is that demon night order is extremely important. That's what I would say
neon schooner
The background image that shows up at clocktowerdotlive when you put in the BSN ...
It's really great!!! TPI made it themselves 👀
neon schooner
I've come around to this script *hard* and would love to see a breakdown of how ...
https://beardytas.com/garden-of-djinn/binary-supernovae/ this says a lot, but i don't think it's quite what you're looking for. i might do a quick writeup later today if I have time 👀
shrewd flax
It's really great!!! TPI made it themselves 👀
Bro, what? Is that because BSN won a competition? Or did you ask
neon schooner
Yep, it's because it got top 16
There's 15 other script icons like it :D
Actually, gimme a sec, I have them all on my laptop
neon schooner
ohhhhhhh i didnt realize that could also show up on .live now
i thought it was app only
and yeah this one's also great and also made by tpi!!!
all the top 16 have it
(depending on where you get your json from, at least)
shrewd flax
They have unique ones?
neon schooner
nope it's the same one
shrewd flax
Still really cool
neon schooner
ya for sure
neon schooner
ok hi im back ill yap for like 15 minutes then i gotta go
starting with the rule itself: this has the effect that both teams have twice the opportunity to win. in practice, what i've found is that this means that everything from who you choose to what's in the bag to who you vote on matters about twice as much
though the script is built so that most bags work. any evil team works perfectly fine, and most good teams will work as long as they have access to both info and protection
the misinfo suite here is very sparse. it's actually mostly just pukka. with the game moving twice as fast, pukka poisoning info townsfolk is far more impactful, and it's able to bear the load of misinfo far better than your average script. it still needs help though
innkeeper and philosopher are the other ways for information to be false. these are, of course, townsfolk, but they can also be bluffed, which is just as important for the evil team
(basically any bag of BSN should have at least 1 of innk and philo either in play or in the bluffs, or both. if not, you BETTER have a pukka)
summoner and mastermind aren't misinfo, but they're more for the good team to work around, which takes up players' thoughts and makes acting on info riskier
mastermind in particular is very potent on this script, because it's a little harder to detect than bmr if youre just going off of kill patterns
like, there's still gonna be a demon killing on a mastermind day, usually
to counter this, we have characters like mathematician and oracle
oracle is more obvious in its counterplay. if the number didn't go up and you trust your info, it can't be a mastermind day
mathematician has the unique ability to distinguish different sources of dropped kills. if the innkeeper saves a player, that ticks the math number up. if there's 1 fewer kill than expected because a demon's not killing, that doesn't tick the math number up. higher math numbers usually mean it's not a mastermind day
this is also a script where you can (more often) pinpoint exactly which characters ticked up the mathematician. pukka can be difficult to spot because it's so invisible until after the fact, but there's strong synergy with things like exorcist and philosopher
another effect of pukka being the main source of misinfo here is that you can never totally trust info on the day after you got it. if you wait a day, and you're alive, you probably weren't pukka poisoned at the time... but this is a script where you probably can't afford to wait a day
the info is also quite polarizing at times. i've seen an empath bluff fall apart because they claimed strong info on day 1 and then not die about it later on. pukka can't explain that, all you really get is philosopher.... or that you were lying about your role. let's talk about magician!
this is a script where coordination is incredibly important. assassins don't want to sink their kills into whoever the demons are killing tonight, summoners want their demons to know who the other demon is, and minions desperately want bluffs in most cases. magician throws a massive wrench in that
evil has ways to get around the magician (like ojo), but it can really mess up day 1 especially. in the first game on stream, the magician fooled the evil team all the way to late game, where there was a great conversation between 2 evil demons that thought the other was good where they complained that they were being framed
magician is also uniquely good at affecting votes on this script. evil is, by default, incredibly mechanically coordinated (they know who's who), so having someone on the inside is a solid counter to TPKs
it's also a great bluff to back into. i had a game at final 3 con where the magician bluffed golem, then the real golem punched a player, then she had the most suspicious magician claim ever... and was good
so, uh, evil players can do that and be believed too
golem and fool have ways to publicly confirm themselves as good here. that's totally intended, and it gets hard countered by summoner
the later they confirm themselves, the better. since summoner can act on night 2, the value of confirmation goes up over the first 3 days. but, the number of living players tends to go down faster
fool golem is also an intentional combo. if a golem punches a fool, they don't appear to die. this is an incredible bluff for demons!
fool soaking up a kill is also quite important as counter to godfather. if the godfather gets a kill here, it can often mean evil steamrolls. if they kill the fool though, good still has a real chance
these 3 demons kill in very different ways, which is part of why i chose them
neon schooner
imp kills in the standard way, but if it kills itself, it moves the goal post for the good team to a minion. this can be incredibly risky against characters like empath, chef, and gambler
pukka poisons first, then kills. it also can't kill itself
ojo is uniquely good at killing demons, especially because it goes last in the night order and won't drop a kill from a teammate (if the imp kills the ojo, that's it, they don't get a kill)
ojo also, of course, kills by character
the ways that ojo and pukka kill are often double edged swords because they have blind spots as far as choosing who to kill goes. but, in context, they usually make up for each others' weaknesses because they're not alone
these townsfolk are carefully selected to support the philosopher. chef info is universal, so it doesn't synergize that hard with philosopher... but you can still find a summoned demon! most other characters benefit from being sober for a long time, whether that's a chambermaid that's choosing every night or a soldier that's holding out against 2 demons trying to kill them
i've seen most townsfolk get chosen by philosophers on this script, and i genuinely believe that all of them are viable choices. it's really about reacting to how the game is going (or going magician night 1)
ok i gotta go lol
ive said like most of the high notes i think? but i have SO many thoughts on this script and if anyone is curious about smth ill happily answer
young loom
it's also a great bluff to back into. i had a game at final 3 con where the magi...
LOOK I THOUGHT THEY WERE COEVIL
shrewd flax
imp kills in the standard way, but if it kills itself, it moves the goal post fo...
Have you ever seen a game where Imp starpassed twice to remove itself from the game, and the other demon rode it out to F3?
neon schooner
I can't remember any off the top of my head, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened before
It's less common than you might expect tho because this script USUALLY has at least 2 minions
(7 and 8 player games are very evil sided, 9p and 10p aren't much better)
shrewd flax
In what range of players would you call this a very good script
Does it shine the most in large games
neon schooner
Yeah I'd say so
12p is probably ideal? But anything from 11-15 works well
Even 9 or 10 is definitely runnable, just be careful with the bag
shrewd flax
Why two minion game instead of three?
twilit sonnet
people hate 3 minion for some reason
neon schooner
Higher variation in which minions are in play
It's not a very substantial difference
twilit sonnet
people hate 3 minion for some reason
I guarantee this is because of TB sucking at 15p
neon schooner
Like I'd always rather 13p than 12p+traveler or 12p+spectator
shrewd flax
I tend to like 2-minion games more, because 3-minion feels like you're always working with the same characters. But if the script is best with more players, maybe 12p and 15p are the best
neon schooner
Fair enough
I would say don't stress so much about the player count once you hit 11 players
twilit sonnet
Remember when this script had xaan
neon schooner
Yeah that was before I understood the implications of the rule all that well
twilit sonnet
Pepperidge farm remembers
twilit sonnet
Yeah that was before I understood the implications of the rule all that well
tracks
probably shouldn't have baroned the xaan tho
shrewd flax
Is it ever strategic for the Imp to starpass to Summoner on N2, collapsing to a normal BOTC game? In other words: is the Bootlegger rule evil-sided, compensated by a strong town here, or vice versa, or is it balanced?
ruby lodge
It’s evilsided
twilit sonnet
Is it ever strategic for the Imp to starpass to Summoner on N2, collapsing to a ...
it's evilsided
and compensated by a strong town
neon schooner
Yep seconding what they're saying
It's a fully coordinated extra evil including an extra demon ability and a weird safety net
The wincon alone is not enough to make it balanced
Again, misinfo is sparse, and info is potent
There's a reason a good chunk of the info is from TB, the script with very direct info that's not afraid of direct conflict
ruby lodge
Hot take: evil should sink 1 kill each night to bluff mm day bc they still have 1 kill
neon schooner
There's a push and pull there because you give good multiple free executions that way
twilit sonnet
Hot take: evil should sink 1 kill each night to bluff mm day bc they still have ...
just kill a demon my guy
alternatively: not everyone is a demon candidate
neon schooner
Yeah that works too
ruby lodge
There's a push and pull there because you give good multiple free executions tha...
But if it’s possibly a mm day it make them refrain from executing
neon schooner
The extra time makes it easier to find a living evil player to execute
Because pukka is the main misinfo
shrewd flax
If you had to name one flaw of BSN at high enough player counts, what would it be @neon schooner
Or is there none
neon schooner
It's incredibly swingy by nature
Swingier than anything else I've seen
And I'm okay with that!! It makes it feel distinct
But in a perfect world yeah I'd rather it be less swingy
Moonchild is also just kinda... there, I guess? It works just fine, but it's not actually adding that much to the script
That slot wants to be goon, but goon would be an extra extra evil which breaks things
ruby lodge
I think mc is fine
neon schooner
It's fine, but it's only fine
ruby lodge
Well with 2kpn the extra good player is actually less benefit to town than in 1kpn
So the outsiders should be less damaging
ruby lodge
What I do also like about the script is it makes summoner mm good
Normally they have the issue of there not being a demon for 2 days
And the solution is just let there be a demon
ruby lodge
True
neon schooner
It's a little weird in practice and prone to people not understanding the interaction, but if everyone understands it then it works really well
I make sure to explain it in full
shrewd flax
It's incredibly swingy by nature
Why?
I guess it doubles the swinginess of regular scripts that comes from accidentally executing the demon D1 or D2?
shrewd flax
Moonchild is also just kinda... there, I guess? It works just fine, but it's not...
||Any unreleased Outsiders in mind?||
twilit sonnet
||is this tramp again||
shrewd flax
||I actually think Feathermaster works better here||
||It counters the loss of townsfolk from the Bootlegger ability, among other things||
twilit sonnet
Oh lol
shrewd flax
But it has misinfo
||Misinfo bad for the town. But slowing down the game (no more Moonchild death) good for the town. Balances.
Moonchild face-up Outsider, execution a known Godfather threat. Feathermaster a face-down Outsider, execution an unknown Godfather threat. Balances. ||
neon schooner
||Any unreleased Outsiders in mind?||
Nah, I tend to avoid specspoiler stuff
neon schooner
But it has misinfo
That's not a hard no tbc