Ringbearer: Lord of the Rings

[lunar prairie]

I mean, yeah, sounds good, but "player might die" I think is kind of brutal, but that's just me

But first part is pretty good

[placid gull]

the player might die part has to be there so that Town can't turn it into a leviathan game :P

(and to mess with stuff like Gimli naming warband)

but it's to be used sparingly

[analog forge]

It can also kill Warband, I suppose, for balance

So is Sauron not announced to town?

[topaz flame]

That's fun.

[placid gull]

That's the idea!
Minions & Sauron also don't know which Warband Sauron is, they have to experiment and find out!

yea, the one playtest we did went horribly, but that's because we uhh...forgot to give it the kill ability. So it was a bad leviathan game.

[jaunty wedge]

at least 1 warband said it was fun trying to find the secret Sauron

[analog forge]

Uh so it's like you get a Warband token and then have to go "I claim Sauron and kill X" and then hope something happens?

[jaunty wedge]

ya don't have to immediately
you can try and trick players into thinking you're trustworthy enough to have the ring in the mean time

[placid gull]

if you wanna grab the game by the reigns, yea!
Otherwise, you can bide your time...make a treebeard pick you, or wait for a palantir to die, or cross-reference some good info to figure if you're Sauron or just another minion. Let the storyteller do the killing work. You might even get the Ring.

[placid gull]

yet again, no lobby from me tonight due to 2 or 3 homebrews running at a time in the lobby
pretty soon I'm going to have to start scheduling further in advance, it seems

[floral rivet]

😄

Thanks!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @next fiber (current: #2378 - 1)

[jaunty wedge]

pretty soon they'll see.. they'll ALL see...

lured by the Ring... each and every one of them!

[floral rivet]

wuh

[jaunty wedge]

don'tcha see it Lumi!?

we're gonna be stars

bright ones

[floral rivet]

0-0

[jaunty wedge]

-# stars ...

https://tenor.com/view/door-hide-close-bye-cat-gif-22820275

[placid gull]

Stay tuned; I'm 80% sure I'll be able to release update 6 today...

[placid gull]

Come one, come all, to the 6th edition of LOTR: Ringbearer, by Bim!
https://www.bloodstar.xyz/p/Bim/LOTR-Ringbearer-v6/almanac.html
Some more sweeping, experimental (subject to rollback) changes

• Completely new Treebeard ability: Each night*, if you only voted for exactly 1 player today: learn their character type.
• Completely new Galadriel ability: Each night*, learn how many evil players voted for you, the Ringbearer, or both today.
• Completely new Legolas ability: Each night, choose an alive player (not yourself): learn if their character type has an odd number of players alive.
• Completely new Aragorn (made from Legolas' parts): You start knowing a good & an evil character, 1 & only 1 of which is in-play. Each night, learn if 1 bears the Ring.
• Bilbo tweaked and reworded completely for clarity (and to repair relations with Wormtongue): Each night*, if an evil player has the Ring, they pass it to one of your alive neighbors (once).
• Samwise gets [+Frodo]
• Several characters reworded slightly for clarity.
• Freshened, updated Almanac, hopefully with fewer errors/artifacts from older versions.
• Yet more icons from @floral rivet, to whom I'd like to extend a very special "Thank you!" I think we're free to look forward to more tokens to come.
• Cleaned up reminders, night order, etc. Sorry those were out of date for so long, I hadn't really considerd that anyone besides me would want to run this thing, and I have been pleasantly proven wrong. Storytellers rejoice!
• Some flavor text changes, because Tolkien quotes are fun.
• Next update is likely to include Minion changes (hopefully only tweaks), and perhaps some soldified "expert mode" content, with experimental minions and (maybe) wackier townsfolk.
• I will probably roll out a Google Form for this version later, where I'll gather opinions on how individual characters are perceived and enjoyed.

---

Thanks to everyone for making this project a blast to work on, it's been flattering to be recognized around Official App lobbies as "Lord of the Rings guy"

I'm planning to run a game with the new update around 7:30 PM EST (5 ish hours from now), so be on the lookout, I'll send a link!

[jaunty wedge]

And, of course, Oathbreaker remains the same.

[placid gull]

here's the most accurate JSON for the script, by the way.

[floral rivet]

Oh thank YOU Bim! I have gotten to really test my icon making abilities

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1977 - 2)

[floral rivet]

Seriously, it is so much easier to focus on making an icon for someone else than yourself

[placid gull]

I wouldn't know, I haven't the talent :)

[floral rivet]

bud, I don't have talent

I am pretty much just tracing around a reference image

and doing all of the texture stuff

[placid gull]

I don't want to turn this into a flattery contest, but if you are talentless, and I don't possess the talent/skill/effort to do what you do, I'm not sure what that means I have...

[floral rivet]

Ok now I am just confused Xb

eh whatevs

have a nice day

[jaunty wedge]

I think it means we got all these sick icons from the crabs

[placid gull]

y...
yes, this is what I'm saying.

[jaunty wedge]

they are marvelous creatures

oh yea, and so is Lumi

[floral rivet]

Eh-

[placid gull]

Lobby is up!
https://botc.app/join/lotr

[lunar prairie]

Galadriel gets to choose which one, right?

[lunar prairie]

Treebeard might be really strong, learning a minion is 1/2 towards winning the game

[lunar prairie]

Legolass might be really good. I like it way more than old Legolass

[lunar prairie]

Does the evil player learn that Bilbo stole the ring? If yes, then I like it

[jaunty wedge]

lol no

[jaunty wedge]

probably right

[lunar prairie]

But she at least learn which one right?

[jaunty wedge]

Yea, main rule is that players always know if they don't have the ring anymore

[jaunty wedge]

it's all 3

[lunar prairie]

Isn't it incredibly strong then?

Obviously the biggest number is how many voted for both

I guess it may be kind of balanced just because of how hard it is to track this stuff in live games

But probably broken in text games

It feels weak in live and really strong in text

It is more tracking heavy than FG/TC combined, but also probably stronger than both of them combined as well

[jaunty wedge]

yeeeaaa
mainly meant to be used for A) finding evils by getting them to vote on you or B) tracking which players were nominated & finding the ringbearer

and it's not usually appearent what your info means until far, far later

-# plus...
-# and this goes for new Legolas, Treebeard, & Aragorn,
-# the fact that it's so strong makes it a super strong bluff, doesn't it?
-# imagine what a Mouth of Sauron bluffing Galadriel could do in a text game. Treebeard has gotta be so easy to track as well-- easy poison when they vote for you

[placid gull]

No no, Galadriel only gets 1 number, there's just no better/clearer wording

If 2 minions vote for Ringbearer, and Sauron and 1 of the previous minions vote for Galadriel, Galadriel gets a 3

[lunar prairie]

I am still a little bit confused 😄

[placid gull]

if an evil player votes for a Ringbearer, put a Galadriel "voted" reminder on them
if an evil player votes for Galadriel, put a Galadriel "voted" reminder on them (if they don't have one already)
each night, tell Galadriel how many "voted" reminders there are, then remove all voted reminders.

[analog forge]

My initial thoughts:

• There is now a Nick in the Almanac examples. I have ascended.
• Treebeard: I like it! Thematically it is strikes me as deliberative which fits Treebeard's character. It being tied to a voting pattern can make it something evil/Sauron can watch for whenever the minions are nominated, which is very interesting. However it is a challenge for evils to bluff, since they have to curtail their own voting power (this is not a deadlbreaker by any means, c.f. bluffing Butler is perfectly fine, but it's a consideration for the script)
• Galadriel: Many thoughts, will compose these last.
• Legolas: I like it! The information learned seems pretty novel. It has a simple meaning but complex implications. I was playing with the numbers, might post some finding in a moment. It does remove some YSK, so perhaps it is a stealth MoS buff for 1st night poisons -- although Legolas's first night is arguably his strongest.
• Aragorn: I think I like it? Amalgamation of old Aragorn and Legolas. Learning if someone has the ring is fun, is it useful as an evil detector? I am not sure. "Which minions are in play?" is a key part of worldbuilding on this script so it does seem to lean into it. I like that you were able to remove the Ringbearer ability. I think it will need playtesting to determine how strong it is. I think strength will very greatly depending on whether Aragorn learns a demon bluff or not, and also how obvious the minions are. Wormtongue is pretty obvious. Sauron can also be quite obvious (and often is when the wish is sufficiently fun). Is Wormtongue considered "in play" in a Wormtongue game? Also, if N1 info is Denethored, which characters are keyed to the second part of the ability? The true characters, or the ones Aragorn learned? Aragorn learning a character has the ring, and the game not ending, is very strong.

[analog forge]

• Bilbo: I think I like it? It is probably better for balance. I think back to a game where Bilbo started with the ring, passed it to an evil, and then got it right back. That was pretty much it for the minion -- old Bilbo is rewarded for bumbling into evils. Now it will be harder to corobborate that info in time, but it still prevents an early game end.

Galadriel full thoughts:

• I am sad a Storyteller opinon role is gone. I love those kinds of characters.
• Might be impossible to run in person. The physical game comes with "Did you vote today?" and "Did you nominate today?" cards so evils can tell the storyteller the relevant info at night for town crier and flowergirl. You definitely can't do that when the relevant info includes the ringbearer.
• Might be the homeworkiest character in the game. Compared with flowergirl, which is also needs much-loathed vote-tracking homework, Galadriel is also interested not only in who voted, but on which characters, since Galadriel doesn't know who the ringbearer is when she gets her info. Playing Galadriel in a 15 player game where she is likely to survive and get many nights of info sounds dreadful.
• Galadriel has a secret built-in Ringbearer ability. When she is nominated and has the ring, her info is suddenly much easier to parse. Assuming she doesn't get herself executed, that is.
• Old Galadriel often used it N1, so removing that makes MoS have fewer night 1 poison targets (which is a buff for MoS)
• There will be many nights when Galadriel learns a boring zero because neither she nor the ringbearer was nominated. It helps to narrow down who had the ring, but good is much less interested in that.
• Galadriel might be incentivized to have herself nominated and ask for a small number of votes to check, similar to town crier check or witch check noms to fish for info. Personally I think that electioneering is kind of interesting. Also kind of interesting to bluff. (Minion going "I am Galadriel, can I get exactly two votes?" to try to be safe for the day is interesting.)

Legolas math:

• I did some quick checking of just N1 infomation. It is very interesting because the information is heavily dependent on player count.
• In all player counts, the default Townsfolk count is odd.
• No is the most interesting answer N1. If Legolas learns a no:
• He chose exactly a minion if the player count is 11.
• He chose a minion or an outsider if the player count is 10 or 12.
• He chose exactly an outsider if the player count is 5, 7, 9, 13, or 15.
• He can't get a no if the player count is 6, 8, or 14.
• Legolas information ranges from N1 good/evil check to literally useless depending on player count
• Wormtongue messes around with this quite a bit -- not the outsider modification, actually (since it doesn't change the odd/evenness of TF or Outsider counts), but the extra TF or Outsider token that goes in instead of a minion. The possibility of Wormtongue might make this Legolas work at all player counts.

[placid gull]

Thanks for your thoughts, Nick. I agree on the characters at the beginning; I appreciate Treebeard's new, even more flavorful, ability, and I quite like what a cheesy bluff it is for evil (and that evil can keep an eye on who's voting!)
I do think MoS is quite a bit stronger, now, as characters are generally less situational than they were before, and they aren't locked into always poisoning Legolas on n1.
I'm still not sure how I feel about new Aragorn, personally. So far it feels fine. If the info is poisoned or Denethor'd, they trigger on any players they learned (if both were in play with misinfo, that's 2 possible triggers). Would kind of prefer something more inspired. Oh, and Wormtongue, by current rules, is not considered "in play" if the demon has the token, which kind of sucks for Aragorn's possibilities. I might rectify this, at some point.

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @analog forge (current: #1488 - 5)

[placid gull]

Okay, Galadriel.

• I liked the *concept * of the ST opinion role, but in actuality what you were learning was "is the Ring held by an evil player/gollum" and it was mostly binary. I continue to wish that I had come up with High Priestess before TPI, it would be the perfect role here.
• Players have a lot of concerns about Galadriel's homework. When designing we sort of considered this (albeit, we did not anticipate as many concerns as have been raised) but figured that the Ringbearer aspect served as a form of Misinfo to add to Galadriel's otherwise very strong ability. In that sense, you're only tracking votes on yourself, and figuring out who has the Ring is a nice upside when your easy homework is done. Even if this holds true, it is still sort of worrying that players feel so overwhelmed when they draw the token -- and that's something legitimately worth considering.
• I'm glad you caught on to the subtle Galadriel Ringbearer buff, I thought it was terribly clever :)
• I think Galadriel's fail case ought to be rare, as it's not too hard to get Galad to engineer a nomination on herself.
• I hope it does turn out to be a fun minion bluff, it at least reads that way.
• Storytelling Galad in person probably is quite hard, but I don't think it's overall impossible. It takes up more Storyteller "real estate" than I'd prefer, but they should be able to realize when Ringbearer or Galadriel are nominated and simply keep their "voted" reminders handy to plop them down whenever an evil hand is counted. I would prefer if this was easier, though.

[placid gull]

I think Legolas would honestly be quite a non-functional role on a script that did not have Wormtongue. I'm hoping this might even incentivise the occasional first night Wormtongue, but that's probably a pipe dream.

I think your Legolas math might not have properly accounted for Wormtongue, though -- Wormtongue removes a Minion and a Townsfolk from the bag, and adds 2 Outsiders. It doesn't alter the Oddness or Evenness of Outsiders, but it directly reverses both Townsfolk and Minions in a Wormtongue game.

I do have concerns that Legolas' power might vary too much based on fiddly player counts, but I'm hoping that this aspect of Wormtongue means the equation is always engaging nonetheless.

[jaunty wedge]

would you play?

[floral rivet]

looks great XD

Speaky Neaky

[jaunty wedge]

YOOOOOOO
big win

[floral rivet]

are you saying that about the script or the icon?

[jaunty wedge]

the icon

[floral rivet]

oh ok

[floral rivet]

thanks 🙂

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @jaunty wedge (current: #885 - 20)

[jaunty wedge]

what the

[floral rivet]

?

[jaunty wedge]

oh right this has serve r has thank functionality

[floral rivet]

mhm

I wonder what my thankness is

[jaunty wedge]

probably like

4 billion

[floral rivet]

no actually, I don't think I have many

[jaunty wedge]

?!?!!!?!?!

[floral rivet]

how do I check?

I mean I don't care about it that much XD

[jaunty wedge]

thanks lumi (?)

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @floral rivet (current: #1488 - 5)

[floral rivet]

yep

[floral rivet]

also now it is +1 for no good reason 😦

[jaunty wedge]

I'll makes sure to thank you later, but do it in a way the bot can't detect it

[placid gull]

I appreciate the new icon, Lumi
(that way you get no extra from the bot, made up for the deficit) :)

[analog forge]

Okay, in a Wormtongue game, Legolas answers are still very weird and dependent on player count.

• However, in a Wormtongue game, yes is the most interesting answer N1. If Legolas learns a yes in a Wormtongue game:
• He chose exactly a minion if the player count is 10 or 12.
• He chose a minion or an outsider if the player count is 11.
• He chose exactly an outsider if the player count is 6, 8, or 14.
• He can't get a yes if the player count is 5, 7, 9, 13, or 15

While I did have to use excel to map this out, it's a lot easier for a Legolas to work it out in-game if they know their particular player count

Too lazy to think through subsequent nights

But all in all, very interesting how Legolas is super duper interested in learning if it is indeed a Wormtongue game.

[placid gull]

These are all sensible observations. I agree that Legolas gets weird numbers that are fiddly bc of player count, I'm hoping that doesn't detract/add too much to the power of the character overall, because if it does I will have to invent a new design :)

or add more token modification

[analog forge]

It's counterintuitive to how one would expect a simple design that like to play out, that's for sure. It might be super fun, though, for all I know. Also, one night of bad info could send them into an insane tunnel, which is very fun

[placid gull]

I am looking forward to using Denethor on Legolas, for sure.

[analog forge]

The dealbreaker might be a 10 or 12 player grim with Legolas, Wormtongue, and no Denethor. Well, 12 player would definitely have Denethor. 10 player might not. Get a yes and that's the sole minion on the board, kill them and win. However, it is not always obvious on day 1 if it is a Wormtongue game, so evil might have some time to snipe the ringbearer, or put Wormtongue on the board. So it might be an overblown worry.

But I would wager it happens before we get a Frodo win lol

[jaunty wedge]

wow... someone actually analyzed Wormtongue VS Legolas

however... they forgot to analyze n1 wormtongue

that's alright tho

it just inverts 2 rows of the 2nd chart

although

in a 1 minion game, this has to happen

so you've either picked wormtongue, picked a townsfolk after a townsfolk became wormtongue, or have to figure out Outsider shinanigans

and.... imagine being an outsider turned wormtongue & then getting a townsfolk bluff

you're going to psych the HELL out of Legolas

same with the other way around

cause now Legolas is worrying about a Townsfolk being wormtongue & it doesn't come out until day 4 that 1 too many outsiders are in-play

[floral rivet]

thanks mate!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1760 - 3)

[floral rivet]

also i don't care about the whole thanking thing

I just don't want to be farming them

Seaky Pneaky

[placid gull]

doesn't this one look awesome!!

[floral rivet]

😄

[jaunty wedge]

WHATTTTT

[ancient cairn]

Trying to run LOTR rn

feel free to join

[floral rivet]

🙂

[placid gull]

Too late my time

I should be asleep rn honestly

[floral rivet]

I might join later

[floral rivet]

Pneaky Seaky

[next fiber]

Thats epic

[analog forge]

I didn't forget. This is, of course, a trivial exercise left to the reader.

[jaunty wedge]

the instantly-make-the-game-more-complicated-inator <3

[analog forge]

BRING WOOD AND OIL

[jaunty wedge]

BRING WOOD AND OIL

[floral rivet]

Thanks! 😄

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @next fiber (current: #1982 - 2)

[floral rivet]

Yep

[placid gull]

Running a game!

https://botc.app/join/soup

[floral rivet]

I might join later

[jaunty wedge]

sorry gang
I was meeting my father & in a car, too

[analog forge]

Skill issue

[jaunty wedge]

Krill Tissue

[placid gull]

a couple empty seats we're trying to fill still

[jaunty wedge]

graaaah
I'm 20 minutes away from bein able to join

[placid gull]

we're 1 player short exactly too :(

[jaunty wedge]

graaah

[placid gull]

thanks for the games all!

(one day Saruman will try to do something besides make me suffer)

[jaunty wedge]

Fun Fact!: Bim is specifically here just to suffer!

[ancient cairn]

Evil gandalf attempt, making this the right color is hard

I cant figure out how to get the colors right

[lunar prairie]

There is actually no way

So cool

[jaunty wedge]

we actually makin flipped characters ??

[placid gull]

Lumi actually has evil/good tokens for every character he's made
I just haven't gone through the effort of implementing them yet

[jaunty wedge]

o damm

[topaz flame]

Smart

[ancient cairn]

Opened up a lotr lobby

[jaunty wedge]

I'm busy :(

[floral rivet]

I already made an evil version

[floral rivet]

thanks mate! 😄

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @lunar prairie (current: #492 - 70)

[floral rivet]

It isn't that hard...

[placid gull]

I wasn't implying it was a lot of effort, just that I haven't put the effort in (I'm lazy)

[floral rivet]

😢

[jaunty wedge]

Bim said, wiping his brow after fleshing out a full almanac

[floral rivet]

:I

[placid gull]

In between 10-page essays on gendernormativity circa 1340 :)

but yea no I don't have a good excuse for not putting evil icons in yet, I def should it'd make the script feel 10x higher quality
also probably gonna de-outsider and de-minion the colors for the script while I'm at it, for professionalism's sake

[floral rivet]

Yep, I am working on the outsider and minion thing. Technically there is a different texture for Outsiders but it is just BARELY lighter than the TF one

See

Outsider | Townsfolk

[placid gull]

Wait for real

You're not making that up?

Wild

[floral rivet]

No, I wasn't

[floral plinth]

Tbf the official ones aren’t split so

And even then the original of that texture only had the darker TF colour

People just made it lighter bc bloodstar be bloodstaring

[placid gull]

Oh weird?
I kinda like what bloodstar goes for there but yea I'm on board for official-izing the script

[floral rivet]

So mah life is a lie!?

:0

[loud pewter]

is there a channel? i wanna ask when gandalf comes back to life if the demon kills them because the almanac and the script are not saying the same

[jaunty wedge]

you can find it in the night order! it's very close to the end of the night

[loud pewter]

oh demon kills during the day, i understand now

[loud pewter]

thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @jaunty wedge (current: #875 - 21)

[loud pewter]

What’s like the suggested minimum
For this? I’ve only played once and just ran it in person with 8 players and the minion (mouth of Sauron) got killed by gimbli lol

(The nights were taking too long, im a quick st so it wasn’t entirely me, and the mouth had some social reads on them)

[jaunty wedge]

2 minions usually produce the best results

[loud pewter]

Thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @jaunty wedge (current: #858 - 22)

[placid gull]

1 minion is functional, but Cole is right, 2 minions is preferred

[loud pewter]

Thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1606 - 4)

[loud pewter]

If bilbo is in play and evil is handed the ring, do u tell evil they got it then take it away or just give it straight to bilbo’s neighbor

[loud pewter]

Oh and a question for you mighty Bim. I have discord on my phone and I can’t seem to find the pins. I played with you once where Legolas knew two good players and…something else, but the json at the top is different I think. Can u ping me the most recent json/almanac please?

[forest dirge]

#1290110440885714954 message

[analog forge]

With the last version of Bilbo, evil learns if they would have had the ring, I assume it is the same

[loud pewter]

Thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @forest dirge (current: #2396 - 1)

[loud pewter]

Thanks

What if the demon tries to worm Frodo. It doesn’t work. Can the demon worm again? Or that’s just wasted?

[analog forge]

It is wasted. Frodo baiting a Wormtongue has been empirically much more likely to happen than Frodo's win condition

There had been a test of a 1 minion Wormtongue game where Sauron was required to place Wormtongue at the start of the game. It would have made for a very short game if Frodo had been picked!

Ooh I just realized that new Bilbo makes a Frodo win a tiny fraction more likely to happen

[placid gull]

I think Nick answered this, but just to be sure;
Current Bilbo's text has a spot in the night order, so you go to the minion at night and tell them "you lost the Ring" and tell Bilbo's neighbor they bear as usual.

The old Bilbo text used to be an instant-pass.

[placid gull]

Nick's answer is spot on here!
Many Frodo's have tried to convince Sauron to target them with Wormtongue, it's very fun.

I by no means mind answering questions, but for your own convenience, both of the questions you asked are answered in the almanac, contained within the link Aya pointed you to.

I'm glad you're enjoying the script!

[loud pewter]

I was actually asking questions as I read the almanac lol. I’m almost done. Sometimes I interpret things weird and want to check if my noodle is working properly lol.

Thanks @placid gull

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1491 - 5)

[analog forge]

Ah yes, I am also a frequent sufferer of flop-noodle

[placid gull]

Ah I gotcha

Ofc!

[jaunty wedge]

the one ring

[placid gull]

Cole maybe you're engaging too much with the thread

You should safely be able to engage with circular geometry under normal circumstances

[floral rivet]

:0

[floral rivet]

you are SURE

[placid gull]

At least 40% sure

[floral rivet]

hmm... I don't buy it...

[jaunty wedge]

but... but

.. the ring..

[placid gull]

It calls

[floral rivet]

40% of your ring based imagination exists

[placid gull]

wish I was playing botc right now

[karmic meteor]

@placid gull @jaunty wedge What do you guys think (Just to be clear, I did not make the art in the background, credits to the artist) ?

[jaunty wedge]

woooooah

[karmic meteor]

I would be hyped to see maybe 1 or 2 characters on the Townsfolk team having an effect if wearing the ring

For now there's only Gandalf and Frodo if I am correct

especially since Bilbo wore it for some time

[lapis wraith]

Maybe Bilbo could cause outsiders and opposing travellers to be drunk while the ringbearer?

[placid gull]

Galadriel doesn't have the keyword, but does actually get a lot stronger with the Ring.

Yea, it used to be that every single TF had such an ability, but they mostly caused more complexity than was necessary.
The hard part is trying not to make essays for each character's text, keeping abilities simple and intuitive enough that having 2 entire abilities is sensible (especially when 1 is usually an edgecase)

I agree that they're broadly fun and healthy for the script, excluding complexity/wordiness.
I like when players have reasons to say "give me the Ring! I'm not a Minion!"
Plus it feels cool.

[placid gull]

I like this ability alright.
My complaint is just that it feels disconnected from the primary ability and would take the ability to 3-4 lines of text.
Being a homebrew, the amount of work it is to make sense of the characters on the script is a huge part of advertising

[placid gull]

I replied to your suggestion but not this awesome sheet. I think this is definitely the best-looking presentation of the characters I've seen! Thanks for this!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @karmic meteor (current: #2437 - 1)

[karmic meteor]

With pleasure ! I've printed the sheets + tokens today, ready for a first game in a few days 👀

[placid gull]

that's awesome! Would love to see how the tokens look physically, I have my concerns in that regard...

you'll get to run a physical game before even me :P

[analog forge]

That is very spicy, I like it. I will say that the all-caps ability text is a bit hard to read at that font size. (Also consider that living rooms the game is played in tend to be lit for mood, not for easy reading, ime)

[karmic meteor]

Yeah, agreed, but it was hard to fit everything in 😅

In my case we are playing at university, so the light is just normal and not specific to a mood

[analog forge]

The clinical light of higher learning

[karmic meteor]

Exactly

I realized university students are super fond of BOTC

[karmic meteor]

Btw why precising in the almanach that the Wormtongue does not learn the demon ? Isnt Sauron known ?

And also what to do as ST when you own the ring ? Who do you give it to ?

Both at the beginning and when an evil ringbearer dies

And also do you regain the once in game ability if you gain the ring again ? I think not right ?

[latent spire]

How does Wormtongue work in a 1 Minion game? Wouldn't Sauron just die immediately?

[karmic meteor]

@placid gull

[placid gull]

I wish I was outgoing enough to get one going at my university 😖

[placid gull]

I go back and forth between whether characters ought to have text that makes them function on other scripts; but in the situation that Wormtongue was used elsewhere this would be the case (and is the case for the character from which Wormtongue is derived; Bakedice's Caliban)

[placid gull]

The ST can give it to anyone that meets the requirements. I recommend giving it to folks who haven't gotten to do much, or whose characters are low-impact (relatively speaking) to spice up their personal games a little.

No, you don't regain once-per-game abilities for bearing the Ring. Gandalf can regain it via resurrection, but that's it.

[placid gull]

The way I've run it (and thought I had mentioned in the almanac) is that Sauron must place Wormtongue immediately on night 1, before the game "realizes" that no minion is in-play. It's one of several reasons why the script is not optimal for 1-minion games (I've been considering a Mezepheles-like minion for some time now to assist with this, but unfortunately between Oathbreaker and fact that extra evils make passing the Ring so dangerous, it's a very difficult balance to find)

I gotta actually read my whole almanac one of these times and figure out all of the stuff I just assumed was in there lol

[karmic meteor]

Thanks for the precision !

[placid gull]

Always! :)

[placid gull]

New year, same Ring.

[floral rivet]

I promise that I might probably maybe continue making the icons when I do it

[placid gull]

That's okay, I owe you a reference as far as I remember

[floral rivet]

You owe me something?

[floral rivet]

Bim they stole your idea!

How dare 😔

[frozen nimbus]

Well

Tbf, wizard has been known of for a long time due to it having been leaked long ago

[placid gull]

Yea, I knew about wizard. I thought I had longer until it was official, but...

regardless, I always chose to make Saruman simpler than this; "have a price & leave clues as to its nature" feels like a large burden on the ST, but that's just me

I do have to confront this issue, where I don't want any of my characters to be direct ports of BOTC characters, and now one effectively is.

Potential Saruman rework, time to see if I've got a riot on my hands...

[loud pewter]

I saw it and I was like “omg Saruman lol”

Question about this script. Is revived Gandalf confirmed Gandalf?

And then. Wouldn’t Sauron kill him immediately?

[floral rivet]

Nah they stole the idea 100%

[floral rivet]

No you didn't

Shhhh

[placid gull]

Yes, short of Saruman making a wish to fake it.

[placid gull]

If Sauron wants to spend a kill on someone who definitely doesn't have the Ring, good is pretty happy with that exchange.

[loud pewter]

Ok that makes sense!

[loud pewter]

Would you allow someone to pass the ring to a Gandalf who resurrects that night? I think no since ring passing goes before resurrection?

[placid gull]

Your interpretation is correct. Gandalf is not alive at the time of passing, and thus an invalid target. :)

[loud pewter]

Thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1443 - 6)

[loud pewter]

This script is mad fun. I’m not even into LOTR like that

[placid gull]

Hehe it's a good time

[loud pewter]

Just for mouth of Sauron. I need to make sure everyone is in a group chat and can then split off into a smaller group chat

(Playing in person)

[karmic meteor]

Bim preshotting the official rules, I was like DrLove OMG Saruman is here

yeah that's a good question @placid gull , how would you manage a Mouth of Sauron IRL?

because allowing speech during the night is almost impossible, you have to allow them to leave the circle.. good luck

I guess no speech and just show what you want

or phone text

[floral plinth]

They just communicate silently

Lmao

(Also is anyone noticing how the minions are kinda just scuffed circus music minions?)

[frozen nimbus]

Which other than wormtongue which was originally caliban reflavoured but changed for balance reasons

[floral plinth]

Yeah

I mean

Idrk how it’s balanced as is but

Especially bc the wormtongue doesn’t actually become evil raw

[latent spire]

Given the almanac, I presume the intention of the character is that the only difference is [+2 Outsiders] over [+1]. While this buff is very significant (it's now objectively stronger than Baron) I think I understand some of the reasoning behind it after a few cursory glances at this script.

• There is no other source of Outsider mod, and generally, you want scripts to be able to deviate from the base Outsider count by 2. While generally, the solution to this is by having other sources of Outsider modification on the script (Church of Thunder has Shankaar), you have reasons to not do that then such an adjustment can be reasonable.
• The Fabled character this script is built around makes the effect of Caliban significantly stronger, such that a well placed conversion is, to my understanding, a win condition for the evil team. While I'd personally see this as a reason to avoid Caliban, if you'd want to keep it in such a context, making it louder so that the good team is more likely to be correct about whether or not it's in play makes sense.
• While I don't know how much the Ring effects this dynamic, the base mechanics of Sauron make it seem like a weaker Demon than most. The Minions being stronger than average to compensate makes sense were this the case.
• There are some contexts where Sauron will need to use Caliban immediately, or at the very least, will be pressured into using it far earlier than they otherwise would. While situations like this are a large part as to why I put a +1 on Caliban at all (Pyn's rationale for it tho is much more solid, but I digress), if it's going to be significantly more common on this script that limits the strength of the Caliban part of Caliban, so I get the vision of making other parts stronger.

[placid gull]

That's completely functional!
Pantomiming with eyes open is also surprisingly decent, if less effective communication.
MoS is sadly likely to see a change soon, though. Not entirely happy with how it works currently.

[placid gull]

Yea the Almanac outlines various means, but as said they hyst communicate silently

[placid gull]

For Wormtongue that's intentional
MoS was just a convergent design, as a result of Sauron often not being able to hand out bluffs (or otherwise partake in scheming) when the script was first made.
Players have since figured out how to play with Sauron, and thus hand out bluffs (the "I'll only kill players who don't talk to me" threat usually gets both minions in a chat day 1) so I think MoS is not going to be necessary going forward.

[placid gull]

These are pretty much my reasoning as laid out.

The second bullet is an interesting observation, and in older versions of the script a conversion mechanism was strictly necessary because confirmation chains were frequent and frankly broken. The +2 was to make it louder, in part.

Minions on this script can generally afford to be above-averagely powerful, given that they are no longer expendible. Wormtongue can't (usually) act like a Baron because risking/sacrificing oneself is a huge injury to the evil team. (And Sauron doesn't make up for the power deficit there)

As to Sauron having to sometimes immediately place Wormtongue, yea I agree that's my least favorite aspect of the dynamic. I'm seeking out alternative minion abilities as a result, I just haven't found anything convincingly better-fitting ability yet.

---

As a general note for everyone, next update has been planned to be primarily an overhaul of the evil team, and now that holdiays are concluded expect the update to be relatively soon.

[loud pewter]

Thanks

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1365 - 7)

[loud pewter]

I love it as is but can’t wait to c what u do with it!

[placid gull]

Here's my sorry attempt to farm inspiration:
Every minion has issues aplenty right now,

• Wormtongue is bad in 1 Minion
• Saruman too closely resembles the (now official) wizard, for my liking
• Mouth of Sauron's communication mechanic has been outmoded by gameplay and now feels clunky.
• Witch-King is too low impact and the range of show-able characters is surprisingly low.

The lab is currently developing solutions to these problems, but I'm curious what ideas the general public can invent. Nothing is too radical, atm.

:)

[lunar prairie]

Is Wormtongue actually bad in 1 minion games. It's a Baron with tradeoffs (you need to survive, unlike Baron, but the demon also gets to choose you, unlike Baron)

I guess it does seem slightly underpowered

[frozen nimbus]

well

its stronger baron

as it doesnt have barons biggest downside

that if you trust a baron being in play the outsider count has to be +2

wormtongue makes it +1 or +2 by proxy of an outsider potentially being chosen for wormtongue

[placid gull]

sorta, but being a vanilla minion with [+1 outsider], even in a kazali game, is still pretty weak
especially when the game hinges on your survival in particular, you'd like them to have more agency
same goes for being a kazali picked baron in the latter
at the very least, it doesn't feel good or powerful for the demon, which is significant to me.

[frozen nimbus]

kazali picked baron does nothing

this garuantees you have done something

but the survival point makes it awkward

since it defeats what many find comforting with baron

[placid gull]

yea that's what I'm getting at

long story short it feels clunky in that particular spot, and I'd prefer a minion that serves a similar role (infiltrating confirmation chains), while not feeling quite as awkward there (or as similar to mezepheles...)

[frozen nimbus]

maybe sauron and wormtongue could be jinxed otherwise?

maybe if wormtongue hasnt been placed and all other minions are dead, sauron can die by exe

[placid gull]

honestly I'd consider it pretty weak script design if I needed to build jinxes in, even if that's a good option
I'll keep considering more substantial changes

[loud pewter]

Worm tongue also has a built in bluff btw. Since they can just continue saying they were whatever they were

I do like the private communication idea. I was running it for my first time and put one minion (mouth). Someone said the nights were too long and that’s how they knew it’s mouth

[frozen nimbus]

You could build it into the character itself if you want to avoid jinxes

[loud pewter]

I wouldn’t worry about wizard. But I’m new to ur script and maybe haven’t seen stuff @placid gull

[frozen nimbus]

But also, a script using a jinx efficiently is to me more of a work of art than flawed

[placid gull]

I do take this point, and wouldn't fault another script creator for doing so with success, but I personally would feel like I was taking the "easy way out". Perhaps that's a weakness of mine :D

[frozen nimbus]

Fair enough tbh

[placid gull]

The goal is currently for my characters to be original, unfortunately. The 4 minions I currently have actually translate very well to currently existing minions and would be great additions, to the extent that I'm considering doing it.

But for now I'm trying to make characters all on my own (because I'm smarter and better and cooler than TPI, right guys?)

[placid gull]

I decided not to let the number of lobbies discourage me, we'll see how it goes:
https://botc.app/join/lotr

[floral rivet]

Seaky Pneaky

[placid gull]

Thanks to those who played!

I'm afraid the script is actually a tad good sided now; which I suppose is a nice change of pace if nothing else. Maybe the next update will finally show balance!

[rotund prawn]

Just realized something, the 2 people I claimed minion to that last game were both actual minion lmaooo

I figured Lemon was one from their reaction cuz they weren't having any of it 😂

[placid gull]

Lmao

[analog forge]

What about Wormtongue adjacent to marionette/Boffin?

As in, they have a townfolk token and it functions correctly, but they are on the evil team

Perhaps something like "You have a good character's abilility. On night 2, learn you are an evil minion. [+2 Outsiders]" Wording seems clunky, but you get the idea.

Then it would be storyteller choice, noit Sauron's. You would place an "Is Wormtongue" token next to them during setup, and they would count as a minion from the start, and would not register as the token the received, similar to the Drunk.

Their ability should work, if you want them to infiltrate confirmation chains. In this sense it is similar to a Boffin'ed ability

Might need to be a townsfolk instead of any good character

[loud pewter]

Palantir 😅

[floral rivet]

Come on! Have I been gone so long that I don't get complements anymore?!

that is the only reason I make these- I mean... I make them out of the goodness of my heart

[floral rivet]

Yay! I got the heart

[placid gull]

I wonder if this isn't too powerful still. Specifically, I wonder how much confirmation would become completely meaningless, and how much the Ring would get passed to this minion. Maybe a "you cannot bear the Ring" clause would be sufficient. After all, hard confirmation works when only 1 person can be Wormtongue. I'll think about it!

[floral rivet]

Pneaky Seaky

I made 2 though idk which bim is using

[analog forge]

Probably the same as a Boffin script, and outsider mod is a big clue that Wormtongue is in play. If Wormtongue learns night 1, it would probably reduce the power, since you lose that day of sincerity

But yeah, on Ringbearer passing the ring is a risk that a false confirmation is potentially an instant loss

[placid gull]

Prolly the one with more whitespace

[placid gull]

I hadn't actually considered that outsider mod would stick around, but that's a good observation. Might reduce it to +1 or so, though.

The idea is almost quite elegant. I'll try and hunt for what I think is missing.

[karmic meteor]

I agree with that, and all players that have experienced the script in my group clairly claim that the script is so much better at 12 players. Typically a game with Frodo and a Witch-King at 9 players doesnt allow much scope to give characters to the Witch-King as a ST (9-RingBearer-Frodo-Sauron-Witchking=5 players, that's 2 nights of different info)

However I really like the ability of the minions to be honest, especially at 12 players.

[karmic meteor]

Here are some ideas of abilities that (could) fit, see what you think :

Mouth of Sauron : Once per game, choose that the Ringbearer appears falsely to all players.
Saruman : If Treebeard is in play, you know who they are. You appear as Gandalf to other characters, and poisons any characters targetting you.
Witch-King : Each night, if one of your neighbor bears the Ring, you are noticed. You can then choose whether to kill one of your neighbors, and which one.

[floral rivet]

kk

So this one

[analog forge]

I think this Witch King doesn't work. WK between two evils. WK next to Frodo is weird (wake and learn, kill one, if they don't die they are Frodo and the other one just have the ring because if Frodo had it you would have learned)

Plus just the one two of killing one neighbor and then Sauron killing the other that day

[karmic meteor]

Yeah right, forgot about frodo's shenanigans

[placid gull]

Ringbearer: Lord of the Rings script

[floral rivet]

hmm... I will probably maybe not be lazy when Bim does something again

[jaunty wedge]

oh, trust me, Bim's up to somethin alright

this is the 3rd candy bar that's disappeared from my porch this week

I'm puttin a camera there in case he's inclined to try it again

[floral rivet]

uhhh

[floral rivet]

alright...

[placid gull]

Good
to
Know...

[jaunty wedge]

Update: it wasn't Bim

[floral rivet]

Are you sure?

It could of been Bim in disguise

[jaunty wedge]

Reviewing the footage

wait... LEMON!?

[floral rivet]

:0

[topaz flame]

👉🏻👈🏻

Me when I’m silly and steal candy

[floral rivet]

0-0

[placid gull]

Alright, so here's a little update on Bim's script development over the past 2 months or so:

[karmic meteor]

👀

[jaunty wedge]

siiigh
how could I stay mad at that face

[placid gull]

There's gonna be another big script rework. I'm becoming increasingly conscious of the fact that these broad, sweeping changes are more impactful now that there's an invested audience, and can sometimes lead to bad play experiences (especially where someone misremembers a character that changed)
So, if I've done my job correctly, this will be the last huge, sweeping alteration. I won't promise that, but I'm hoping for it.
Here's an outline of what is expected to change:

• Every Minion is changing completely, and will bear close-to-no similarities to any of their prior incarnations. This might be regrettable (Saruman was a crowd-pleaser, Wormtongue had so many fun minigames for Sauron to play), but I think it'll be for the better of the script.
• at least 3 townsfolk are getting major revisions, and 1 or 2 are getting minor tweaks.
• 1 Townsfolk & 1 Outsider are leaving the roster entirely...(one is becoming an outsider)
• Which means 1 brand new character for each of those types!

(also, no changes I make are guaranteed to stick around. If they're bad, they'll be reversed.)
You can probably expect these changes to roll out before the month is out.

[karmic meteor]

Very hyped ! I will be pleased to test those changes and to give you feedback c:

[floral rivet]

I know you will do it well! 😄

But if you make any of my icons invalid I will hunt you down for the rest of eternity

[swift pagoda]

I LOVE the Bombadil traveller

It's such a fun idea

[placid gull]

mmmm none of the ones you've done yet!

[floral rivet]

Good

🙂

[floral rivet]

It is a really good traveller

[placid gull]

hehe, thank @jaunty wedge for that idea :)
it's been the most popular traveller by far; sometimes I have to restrict it in lobbies because everyone wants to be Bombadil lol
(other people hate it, so it's probably also the most controversial)

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @swift pagoda (current: #1465 - 6)

[jaunty wedge]

bombadil, my beloved :)

it travel

what more do you want?

[floral rivet]

It is a really good traveller, and anyone who hates it has the wrong opinion (trust)

[frozen nimbus]

I would probably be in the hate camp 😅

Haven't played with it

But probably wouldn't be my style

Cool concept

Not for me

[jaunty wedge]

yeaaah
we have other travelers for people like you.. just in case they exist (jk it's totally fine to dislike Bombadil)

[floral rivet]

Nobody on the planet is allowed to dislike Bombadil

it is against the law

[placid gull]

That's the nice thing about Travellers in particular; they're very very optional.

[jaunty wedge]

( we've never had an Annatar game )

(( we actually have NO idea if it's actually balanced or not ))

((( and the best part is )))

(((( if we keep it that way we never have to find out :) ))))

[floral rivet]

((((( Wow, you managed to say that all without Capitalising the 1st letter of any of your sentences )))))

[placid gull]

Hey guys! I'm gonna try and run a game at some point today!
I'll be on sporadically from 3:30 PM EST onward trying to get a game together, so keep an eye out!

[placid gull]

Got one up!
https://botc.app/join/lotr

[floral rivet]

Emperor to several circular jewellery

[floral rivet]

Always remember, 40% of your ring based imagination exists

[jaunty wedge]

Lumi, I've gotta put you under a microscopes to be studied

[floral rivet]

0_0

[floral rivet]

The ring

[jaunty wedge]

The ring......

[karmic meteor]

The.. Ring !

[placid gull]

it calls

[loud pewter]

Have you made public the updates?

[placid gull]

I haven't finished them yet 😭

[loud pewter]

No worries! I love it. Just wanna play test for u

[jaunty wedge]

it's curious so far

[rigid jay]

The only time I played with Bombadill, the game ended the same day they planned to use their ability.

[floral rivet]

https://tenor.com/view/one-ring-them-all-lotr-gif-14729828

[placid gull]

Classic
So far Bombadil is pretty good-sided, I'm trying to figure out how to change that.

[topaz flame]

Maybe bombadil can't point at ringbeaers or minions? Although I think that would swing him to evil sided.
Or they have to point at 2 people (maybe even max 1 evil player). Which may be slightly more balanced but still good sided.

[placid gull]

pointing at 2 players is interesting...

[jaunty wedge]

indeed

[analog forge]

Btw Bim, your LotR lobby made a cameo in Ben Burns's latest how to run Clocktower video

[lunar prairie]

Ooooh, do you have a link?

[analog forge]

https://youtu.be/l8vbPIf4VJY?si=j0UYTx7bXOMDpDaq

[jaunty wedge]

o cool

[floral rivet]

That is cool

[placid gull]

HAHA that's really funny. First the patch notes, now this. I'm immortal.

(also, small update: the update has not been chugging. I've just lost my spark for this project at the moment. I expect some time will come where I'll hit a spark and release everything over the course of like 3 days. We'll see when we see.)
:)

[floral rivet]

Patch notes?

[placid gull]

oh! I helped point out a bug so I was in a couple patchnotes ago :)

[floral rivet]

oh neat

[placid gull]

it's a silly thing but it felt kinda cool 😎

[floral rivet]

Nonono, it is cool

[floral rivet]

Bim you are a fa mouse

[rigid jay]

Just traveled as the 12th player in a game as the Balrog.

Killed both minions, both practically at the last possible minute.

[rigid jay]

Also, all of my friends agree that "if the ringbearer dies it goes to an opposing player" is much more fair than "Sauron wins by sniping the bearer on Day 1".

[naive solar]

Hey, I was thinking of running this, but was wondering a few things:

1. Since Sauron dies when there are no living minions, does that mean that Wormtongue can never be in a one minion game, since it would mean evil would lose before the game even starts?
2. Besides Mouth of Sauron, what ways would you suggest for evil communicating with their outed demon in an in-person game?

[rigid jay]

1. In a 1p Wormtongue game, Sauron must assign the minion N1. Sauron is basically a Kazali creating a Baron at that point.

2. Left as an exercise to the Dark Lord.

[naive solar]

Hey, don't suppose you have a higher res copy of this?

[karmic meteor]

I can give you the .svg file ifw

If you find a way to export it with better res

[naive solar]

Please. That would be amazing

[placid gull]

This sounds glorious.

[placid gull]

Hmmm
It's been a while since I've been on this...
I remember my previous objection being that I wanted to preserve the dramatic tension of Sauron hunting the Ring, especially late game, but honestly now that I've been away I begin to think that perhaps this suggestion has more merit than I once acknowledged.

I will take it into the consideration of my mind palace...

[rigid jay]

Also, playing as Bombadil is really nice as a player who isn't physically with the rest of my clocktower group. I'm currently on an internship in a city a few hours away. I happened to be visiting during the Balrog game.

[rigid jay]

Here's what happened:
It's day 3, evil is running circles around good, and Boromir just died at night. Everyone is panicking. I happen to travel in next to the Mouth of Sauron, who is holding the ring. I convince Denethor to deadvote, and then immediately kill MoS. The other minion, 3 steps away from MoS, had used their wish to ask that MoS could not die by execution. Whoops.

The next day, evidence is starting to mount against Saruman. I point out that I could kill them immediately by having 2 more players deadvote. This gets shot down. At the end of the day, I move one step closer to them.

On the 5th day, there are 5 players alive, excluding me. I once again point out I can kill the guy if we get only one more deadvote. Town finally obliges.
The following happens in order:

• A nomination for a player on the other side of the grim happens.
• Someone deadvotes.
• That player is executed.
• I immediately move over and kill Saruman.
• Sauron collapses into rubble or whatever before they can kill the ringbearer.

I'm not actually sure if Balrog is allowed to act after the execution -- if anything can happen between then and Sauron acting -- but the Storyteller allowed it.
Also, I made a joke about moving during a vote and voting twice. That didn't actually happen.

[placid gull]

love to hear Bombadil enabling more accessability :)

[placid gull]

you know, I'm not sure either. My intuition says yes, but I don't actually know :)

[naive solar]

Hey, ran a 15 player (13 + 2 travellers) game of this for my Uni game group for the first time yesterday. Somehow managed to get to final 4 with no reracks. One thing I would point out is that if the Palantir dies, Sauron can immediately confirm Radagast's alignment which feels like it might be against the spirit of the character

[placid gull]

That's alright; Palantir hasn't survived the next update for the script :)
Congrats on the game though!

[rigid jay]

Lucky v7?

[rigid jay]

Just had an idea for Gollum:
"If you are nominated, you immediately lose the ring."

Or "you lose the ring tonight".

[placid gull]

!!
This...is attractive. In the consideration box it goes!

Probably would do "tonight", given that being executed with the ring is currently one of his win-cons

but it does sort of make it a lot more frantic for gollum, I think

[gentle helm]

If an Oathbreaker becomes evil due to another character’s ability, do they revert to the good team upon death?

— In our game, one of the evil Minions turned into an Oathbreaker (related to their wish). After they died, they were treated as part of the good team.

Another question: Witch-King can only kill one of the two players they learn about that night, correct?
For example, if Witch-King learned about Gandalf the previous night but did not learn about him tonight, then Witch-King cannot choose to kill Gandalf tonight.🫶

[placid gull]

This is correct! Version 7 might clarify the text some.

[placid gull]

I apologize, I think this question might be about the Witch-King rather than Wormtongue. If so, then yes you are correct -- the Witch-King can only kill characters they see that night.

[gentle helm]

So sorry, you’re right—I was referring to the Witch-King. Got it, thank you!✅

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1335 - 9)

[placid gull]

Some teasers as to the (as of yet still coming) update:

At this point, remarkably few characters are remaining as-is. Specifically:

• about 6 Townsfolk
• about 2 Outsiders
• about 0 Minions
• about 1 Demon
• about 0 Fabled

That last one is to say, the Ring might be receiving another change. Hopefully, this will be the last one.
Now some actual content teasers:

• 1 character will utilize a very special keyword, like Lil Monsta
• 1 character references reminder tokens directly
• 1 character can predict the futures of players
• 1 character is a newcomer to the script, as the Palantir will be leaving us...
• Several of the happening changes have been discussed in this very thread! I think my favorite ideas will be obvious enough...

I'm going to be doing my best to re-engage with this thread. I've missed the community, and sparking some discussion about the coming update will inspire me to push it out sooner.
Thanks as always for the support, I'll hope to float around the lobbies here pretty soon...

[nocturne anchor]

intriguing

[floral rivet]

oh yeah...

I was making icon for this...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I swear I have been productive

(trust)

[placid gull]

it'll come out of your paycheck

We have a rare opportunity to add a whole new character...
Now's the time to convince me to add Bill the Pony or whoever else you want in here

[floral rivet]

No boss, please!

Wait since when did you pay me?

[gentle helm]

Hi @placid gull , we’ve noticed that the wish made by Gandalf (a townsfolk) differs from the wish made by Saruman. The former doesn’t mention any potential cost or condition in its execution, while the latter does.

Our question is: from the storyteller’s perspective, is there a mechanical difference between how their wishes work?

In other words, can Gandalf’s (townsfolk) wish also involve a cost or provide clues?

Thx~

[placid gull]

This is a quirk of the fact that Wizard was officially released by TPI, and so Saruman's text was changed to match it. Gandalf couldn't fit that text on the character, but generally it should be treated the same by the Storyteller.

[gentle helm]

Hi @placid gull , if Galadriel is not in play during the day but appears at night due to Gandalf’s ability, what happens when Galadriel is woken up that night by her own ability? Will she learn 0 (because the Storyteller did not record any votes the previous day), or will she learn the number of evil players who voted on the Ring-bearer’s nomination from the previous day?

This raises the question: should the Storyteller always use Galadriel's reminder token during the nomination phase to record this information, regardless of whether Galadriel is in play during the day?

[placid gull]

Hmm. I think the technically proper answer is the one involving tracking, however I'd honestly air on the side of a 0, because it's unrealistic to expect an ST to constantly track.

[gentle helm]

I agree with your point. In the Chinese BOTC Wiki, there are two definitions of "retroactive" abilities:

Objective Retroactive: Some characters determine objective facts that occurred during the game, without requiring the player to have been that character at the time of the event. These abilities can still take effect as long as the player is the character when the ability resolves, even if they weren’t the character when the triggering event happened.

Subjective Retroactive: Some characters determine whether they themselves took part in a specific action. These abilities require the player to have been that character at the time of the triggering event in order for the ability to activate later.

(I’m not sure if there is a similar definition in the English BOTC Wiki), but based on your explanation, I will treat Galadriel as the latter case—Subjective Retroactive—meaning Galadriel must have been in play at the time of the nomination in order for her ability to take effect.

Another Question🙆‍♂️ ：Are the following two scenarios valid actions for the Storyteller?

Pippin receives correct information due to Denethor's ability, even though Pippin would normally receive false information. This consumes one of Denethor’s interference uses.

Pippin would have received false information regardless, and since Denethor is in play and Pippin still receives false information, this also consumes one of Denethor’s interference uses.

Thank U so much! @placid gull

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1307 - 10)

[placid gull]

I'm not familiar with these classifications if they exist in english, but I do really like them. :)

[placid gull]

Denethor specifies "False", not "reversed", so the first case is not possible (Denethor can never cause true info), but the second is completely valid.
:)

[floral rivet]

Wow I am not getting that paycheck

[candid sinew]

Purely thematically, I feel like the Palantir should be a Traveler, Wormtongue should be an Outsider, and the Balrog should be a Minion.

Why? the Balrog's a servant of Morgoth, just like Sauron is; the Palantir's just an object and it's been used for good (long-range communication between cities) and evil (Sauron's dominating influence going through it); and Wormtongue's decently evil but he killed Saruman

I can see how that would be difficult to implement gameplay-wise though

But I at least think the Balrog should be thematically changed to an Eagle. The eagles travel long distances in the story so that works with the movement rules of the role, whereas that doesn't match at all thematically with the Balrog. And while they're never shown to be bad, like Bombadil and Radagast, they're kind of indifferent to the War of the Ring, thus fitting as a Traveller

Could be interesting to have the Blue Wizards as Travelers. There'd be always 2 of them and they'd always be of the same alignment. Thematically, the blue wizards probably ended up helping Sauron in the lore so they work as Travelers (and they actually traveled very far).

Mechanically, having 2 evils might be too strong so there should probably be a disadvantage to them. Maybe, similarly to the Village Idiot, whatever their power is, each night 0, 1, or both of them might be drunk, and if they're both evil, you could have that happen more

[open nova]

Gasp how could they! /J

[ancient cairn]

Have you abanonded bim

[placid gull]

So, the answer is no, but

I have been extremely wrapped up in life. I'll give a real personal update, so everyone knows where my head is at:

When this project started, I expected no traction (like everyone who gets any)
I then got a little, then a lot all at once, and it became very high pressure to release. No problem, I actually enjoy high pressure creation, and people being invested in the script's future was hugely motivating in my ability to produce.

Unfortunately, inspiration is a tide, and as it flows low and high my capacity to create is restricted occasionally.

So I'll mention a bit why my inspiration for this project has been difficult to maintain

• for those unaware, I'm a pre-law english student, and a real-world aspiring author. I want to write books and graduate college, and that takes priority.
• My school had ||an active shooting|| recently, and that was a speedbump to everything.
• The election and fallout thereof.

That, in addition to the fact that my Minion subscription was becoming increasingly expensive as my finances wane and the amount of time I have to play and develop BotC dwindled, has caused my work on this to de facto stop entirely.

I don't want that to be the case. This is one of my proudest creative works. I'm not totally happy with the update I have now, but I might finish up the almanac and roll it out, unhappy as I may be, and see if the community's collective consciousness is still on board.

Honestly, somebody checking to see if I'm working on this is extremely helpful in getting me to engage with it again. So thanks for that.

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @ancient cairn (current: #254 - 177)

[lunar prairie]

That's so sad to hear🫂. I am as happy to playtest anything you need to be playtested as ever. In fact, there are now more people playing on the official app than before so it's easier to get a lobby going

[placid gull]

That's nice to hear. I appreciate the support from everyone, for the record. I couldn't have gotten past V1.2 without all of you, let alone where I am now.

I have loved my time as "lord of the rings guy" among the community :)

[floral rivet]

Bim, you are the best Bim I know.

I will not expect payment yet

though I do require at least 10 million by the end of the year

[floral rivet]

(cookies)

[placid gull]

I'm brushing up the almanac for a tentative release.
Minions are gonna be extra splashy and there's a lot of experimental stuff, some of which might not stick around in later versions. Basically, I had problems, and I'm trying the crazy solutions first.

[lapis wraith]

Looking forward to it! Have been toying with running this in person.

[placid gull]

I am keeping a closer eye on that, too. Aside from Merry and Pippin, most characters should run equally smoothly online and in person in the coming version.

[jaunty wedge]

Ouh dang, keep me updated

[open nova]

Same

[placid gull]

Will do :)

[placid gull]

Aw man, getting back into this script makes me remember what was so hard about it the first time 😭

[floral rivet]

What the- A wild Lumious has appeared!
WITH A SNEAKY PEAKY?!?!?! (I was too lazy to come out with another world jumble)

[floral rivet]

Introducing... Aragorn!!!

[placid gull]

Nothing sneaky about this peaky, that's just Aragorn

:)

[floral rivet]

😄

[floral rivet]

Just checked and this isn't on the almanac

[naive solar]

Ngl this is my second most anticipated release of the year, after silksong

[placid gull]

Aww

[jaunty wedge]

LotR Homebrew tomorrow <3 /coping

[open nova]

🔥

[naive solar]

Ring bearer tomorrow??

[placid gull]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[open nova]

Oh 👀

[lunar prairie]

@placid gull I just wanted to say not to worry about us. I know what it takes like to be busy with real life. Take you time, man, we will be waiting for you here

[floral rivet]

maybe I could run a game...

I don't got minion though

and It'd have to be in like 2 and a hafl hours

🤷‍♂️

and I don't talk when playing BOTC

[cinder patio]

can i storytell this. amazing script

[rigid jay]

Nothing is stopping you. The script are provided in the pins.

[floral rivet]

It is an amazing script that I might make more icons for when I stop being lazy

[cinder patio]

Fri 6pm CST

[cinder patio]

#event-listings message

[floral rivet]

Epic

[jaunty wedge]

yoo

[placid gull]

This script is completely freely and publicly available! Feel free to riff off of the ideas presented, storytell, it, spread the word!!

I really only ask that you take care with the script (like giving the almanac a read before storytelling) and give proper credit if changes are made :)

[placid gull]

I missed this, did it go well?

[open nova]

same.

Sad i missed HB games 😦

[floral rivet]

I think it only got like players

or the people who played just didn't say they were in the thing

[cinder patio]

no one showed up

[placid gull]

Aw man

[open nova]

Oh no one came to the party 😦

[jaunty wedge]

ahh, that's my bad
shoulda pinged me!

[placid gull]

I really need to get around to getting a role ping made for these
The process just confuses me lol

[floral rivet]

@placid gull Is the almanac not updated with the new icons?

[floral rivet]

I was also working on a new icon and it got deleted! 😄

Yay...

[placid gull]

It is not

[floral rivet]

k

[floral rivet]

I might be running this script

not sure

[floral rivet]

What is the most recent version of this script?

https://botc.app/join/4674 People if you wanna join 🙂

plz do

[floral rivet]

It failed

didn't get any players

[placid gull]

It was 5 in the morning where I live I was mad asleep :P

[placid gull]

Most recent version is always in the pins btw

[floral rivet]

Why not happy asleep?

[floral rivet]

it is 6? but I thought the newest 7?

Also, PLEASE UPDATE YOUR ALMANAC WITH ME ICONS >:<

[placid gull]

v7 has not been released :)

I've been working on it for uhhhhh while now

I've been making steady, albeit stupidly slow progress

the new script has very little in common with v6 to be honest

it's difficult to know what point I should stop fiddling with it and release the almanac that I'm not 100% happy with, or if I should keep going until I'm truly satisfied with what I put out

[floral rivet]

Well just tell me your issues and I can try solve em

And tell me your social security number

(trust)

[floral rivet]

:<

[placid gull]

Ringbearer: Lord of the Rings

[floral rivet]

:0

[lavish moat]

Was pllanning to try and run the script this weekend for our local in peerson group. And we prefer print out of scripts so made this myself to put all the stuff of the script togetherr.

Thought id share it here just to help others out if they need a physical copy of it.

Hope you dont mind @placid gull ❤️ Love the script and its design

[placid gull]

this is really well put together! I could see myself using this if I ever play in person, beautiful script.

[placid gull]

oh, but do note that Palantir and Gollum have their icons reversed!

[lavish moat]

OH SHIT. Yeah, damn. I got all my prrints onee with the wrong icons. Damn it

[floral rivet]

AHHHH MY ICONS ARE THERE BUT THEY ARENT ALL FINISHED AAHHSHFEYGNFUEYGN(FT^$B#F(&BT$ (&^#GTN*&FG#GHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I swear I did not forget about this at all

and uh

yeah

shh

🥲

[latent spire]

...I don't want to come off as preachy, but as the person who made the character that inspired Wormtongue I'd appreciate it if character sheets for in-person play included the little unicode star that I use to point out my stuff. For online play it's made very explicit in the almanac, but I worry that a character sheet runs potential to be distributed far quicker without an almanac

★ <- this one. You can just kinda place it next to the name or smth

[lavish moat]

Im sorrryr the icons arer wrrong at places. RRRealizing its wrong now.
For Palantir and Gollum as well as for Wormtongue and Lich King

Ill fix those and add BakedIce's icon next to her character too

will send an updated draft soon

[floral rivet]

Nonono you are good

[lavish moat]

We didnt record mch of the in-person game we ran but here is a clip from our in-person game of Ringbearers we did.

Was a fun game. Good had the entire evil team down to rights. They were back to back killing minions in executions from the first execution itself. Evil team was doomed, but Sauron got his shot and killed the Frodo holding the Ring at the end of the day to trigger game end and win the game for evil.

I realized a few mechanically clunky things and some personal balance issues on the script while running it. Am open to discussing them in a private chat if you prefer that as the designer of the script or in the open forum too if you'd like that.

[placid gull]

You were right for this, and it's not preachy at all.

As a small note, Wormtongue is slated to change next update, and will hopefully feel much less derivitive (although I still intend to credit you in the almanac, if that's okay)

[latent spire]

It should be, just make sure it's clear. Like if the character is mostly original with whispers of Caliban still present I want someone reading it to know that Wormtongue isn't my character, but inspired by mine

[placid gull]

Happy to do so publicly, but private is ofc cool if more comfortable for you! I'm happy to have things out in the air of the forum.

• and hopefully my decisions in the update will help repair some of these issues

[lavish moat]

PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS ALONG WITH SOME OF THE PLAYTEST GRROUP'S OBSERVATIONS AFTER TRYING THE GAME PHYSICALLY -

• THE ONE RING : The core concept of the game is really fun to keep passing the ring and hiding it. But it felt like a script where Evil can just win by pure luck at times if Sauron even without solving just chooses blindly at hits the Ringbearer. Meanwhile the good team has to meticulously pick off all minions first. So even if good is playing a very clear and really strrong game where theyy dont deseerve to lose, just one lucky shot from Sauron can end the game. Which felt exxtremely deflating for the good team.
• It felt Sauron actually has no way of getting information to deduce who has what. Minions have info but unless Mouthof Sauron is in the game the Minions can never talk to the demon so how does a Witch King ever relay the info of who doesnt have the ring currently to their demon?

SPECIFIC DESIGN OF CHARACTERSR -

• MOUTH OF SAURON: Doing the secret communication for 1 minute in a physical seetting is just weird and clunky. We did a whatsapp group chat for the sake of the game but then it just became a weird prop. People starting making social deductions based on "when we woke up during the day you were holding your phone in your hand. You must be evil" which is a play that sort of goes against the character in my opinion. Also apparently without my knowledge as the ST, some players had left their phones for charging and at other places so it suddenly just clearred them from being evil when the town solved what were the two minions in play.

• GANDALF - Not having a cost for his wish makes him so strong that players will just wish something outlandish and I as the ST cant neutralize it with a cost to make it balanced. I just homebrewed that instantly to make Gandalf also have a cost.

EOWYN - I dont know if this is an interaction that is intentional. It was definitely unique and i had to take a minute to see if its suppose to work and I couldnt see any other way than having it happen. But if it is intended you can keep it. Doesn't break the game.

Our Eowyn had the ring. They passed the ring to a player, then used their Once per game the same night to kill the player.
As the power only states, if evil player is chosen, they die.
And I cannot use Denethor to trigger the kill cause thats a Good Ringbearer that dies thus ending the game.
Nor could i have still triggered it but passed it to a Boromir cause Boromir only says if SAURON kills the Ringbearer.

So town just woke up with an Eowyn who had a hard confirmed good pllayer holding the ring.

Suggested changes from a random dude, you dont have to acknowledge:

BOROMIR: Each night*, if the Rinbearer is evil, you die. If the Good Ringbearer dies, you die instead.

Instead of SARUMAN, to have a power that directtly gives Sauron info, closer to a Boffin.

[floral rivet]

Every time I look at this I just remember, oh god I need to make more icons for this...

and then I procede to not do that

I am pretty sure my brain works like the hare from the tortoise and the hair except it wont wake up unless you aim a missile at it

[placid gull]

me but script design

[placid gull]

I'll address these bullet-by-bullet if that's cool
Disclaimer: f I come off as defensive I don't mean to!

• THE ONE RING: Next update I am planning to take on board a change wherein the Ring gets passed to an opposite-alignment player on death. Which means that Evil doesn't win instantly if they luck into the Ring, they just get close.
• SAURON TALKING: This is interesting. In the games I've storytold, players talk to Sauron for several reasons; among them are that Sauron will threaten to kill players that don't talk to them, Sauron will "hold auditions" for Wormtongue, or they simply think that considering a player suspicious for talking to Sauron is lame. That said, I'd like a more mechanical solution to this, and I'd be totally willing to believe that Sauron gets talked to less in person than online. If you have any suggestions on how to get Sauron talked to more, I'd love to hear them!
• MOUTH OF SAURON: Yea, I've decided against this design in the next update.
• GANDALF: I can't really fit the "cost" text into the ability, but Gandalf's ability is meant to be negotiated between the ST and Gandalf. The almanac elaborates on this, but I wish I could make that more clear on the token.
• EOWYN: I am inclined to think of that as clever play by Eowyn, and a real benefit to them obtaining the Ring (like a secret Ringbearer ability).
• BOROMIR: Since the way the Ring works is changing, so is Boromir.
• SARUMAN: All of the minions are getting total, ground-up reworks. I'll look into a direct-info-to-Sauron ability, though.

I appreciate these observations! I think you've run the second ever in-person games of this script, and getting feedback from that "side" of things is really significant.

[floral rivet]

😔 👍

Bim you need to get a missle

[rigid jay]

Here's an idea: remove the "everyone knows who you are", because Sauron is effectively announced at dusk on Day 1 when they kill someone.
Then the evil team can communicate somewhat freely on day 1, since no good players know who Sauron is yet.

[placid gull]

This is kind of creative, actually. I fear two (potentially) negative consequences; that players will choose Sauron at night with their abilities, and that good might execute Sauron d1. I think, though, these are less negative than Sauron having no coms with evil.

TLDR I think this is actually worth a try!

[rigid jay]

Both are arguably bonuses for evil.

I forget -- is this script currently biased towards good or evil? I thought it was biased towards good.

[placid gull]

wtf I replied to this like 2 days ago I thought

[placid gull]

I agree, actually. I didn't really mean negatives for evil, I meant negatives for gameplay. I think it just kinda feels bad as a townsfolk to pick Sauron, and I think it feels really bad as good to execute Sauron. Still think it might be worth it, though.

[placid gull]

Ehh kinda arguable either way. The real issue is how swingy it is; whenever one side wins, outside of ring snipes, it usually feels like the other team got steamrolled and had no meaningful way to combat that

[frozen nimbus]

Which characters would this affect?

Cause the same applies to the vizier and that's generally pretty fine

[placid gull]

Which characters it would effect is actually a pretty complex question bc of the number of changes happening rn
But basically the answer is "not that many"

I am aware that's how Vizier works but I kinda don't love that that's how Vizier works at night
And significantly Vizier doesn't ever soak up an execution

But yea I think it's probably fine, just not my gameplay preference

[frozen nimbus]

I think that's a bad thing about the vizier tbh but it's not super relevant

[naive solar]

This was how I ran it for my group in the one game we played. We usually do something similar for vizier so it was a fairly familiar houserule

[blazing herald]

is there no script image for this?

[placid gull]

No truly official one, I'm quite talentless in that department. @lavish moat made a wonderful looking version (with only like 2 inaccuracies that are purely visual) that I would pin had I the authority.

[placid gull]

This one!

[frozen nimbus]

I can pin something if you want it

[frozen nimbus]

The message you replied to here?

[blazing herald]

Thank you, idk if u have any experience with it but I’m considering running this longtext, do you think it’d work for that?

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @placid gull (current: #1377 - 11)

[placid gull]

I'm not sure! I've never run any text games. I'd certainly be willing to try! I think some of the aspects of this script are very social, so I'd worry that things like Saruman wishes or Wormtongue conversions might feel a bit less coherent, but I can't say without having tried!

[placid gull]

Yea, actually if you don't mind. I'll probably request a new pin once I get an updated image for the script. Thanks!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @frozen nimbus (current: #187 - 288)

[floral rivet]

Darn, responsibility

:,I

[jaunty wedge]

dw guys I'm still here trying to get Bim to make every character be Bombadil

[placid gull]

Fortunately he's only like halfway there

[placid gull]

Current, non-Lumious icon for the brand new character, as a little teaser

The script is a whole lot closer than ever :)

[placid gull]

Gonna try to tease something every day until it's ready...soon...

How about the new Mouth of Sauron text?

While evil bears the Ring, Townsfolk abilities yield false info. [+1 Outsider]

[topaz flame]

… how is that a minion unless bearing the ring as evil no longer ends the game?

[blazing herald]

I thought it was the demon bearing that caused game to end?

[placid gull]

Evil has to hold for 1 night before passing to Sauron, which then ends the game.

[topaz flame]

So it supposed to be for the ring protection characters?

But not the mechanical ones, only the one or two at most that tell you when evil bears the ring. Otherwise this has no use as the game is over unless town gets a lucky snipe

[placid gull]

There are several mechanisms in place to protect the Ring, and critically the new update will change the Ring such that evil sniping the Ringbearer simply gives a minion the Ring, so they still have to hold for a night. So the ability, unless evil wins by the regular botc wincon, will do something.

This ability will hold back the characters that would signal to good that evil is near a win, yea. There are a lot more info roles in general this update, so without the risk of MoS good would be pretty likely to snipe the minion on the critical nights.

[placid gull]

Oops ping

[topaz flame]

I see. I’ll reserve further judgment then. But RIP to the old ability. (Even though it was meh)

[floral rivet]

Not me procrastinating so hard right now...

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-procrastination-rainbow-happy-gif-5073196

[floral rivet]

I am pretty sure I have been procrastinating on making new icons for a week or 2 now

:I

Anyway, rocks are neat

[placid gull]

Open to MoS being undertuned. I'll play around with him when he gets some real playtesting :)

Alright, here's an exciting one
New Frodo:
(Outsider)
Each night*, if you do not bear the Ring, Sauron learns which character does. [You are the starting Ringbearer]

[naive solar]

Interesting. So it’s in frodos interest to either keep the ring the whole game, or hand it off then die so Sauron stops getting hints

[placid gull]

Yes!
It is his burden 😔

[topaz flame]

Frodo is outsider! crazy. cool ability

[opal turret]

I have never noticed how good this script is!

[placid gull]

Thanks! (I think)

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @opal turret (current: #1974 - 4)

[placid gull]

I almost forgot a teaser for today!

New Samwise:
Each day, privately choose 2 players: you learn something true about only 1 of them (you don't learn which).

He's #eavesdropping :)

[floral rivet]

Mah icon 🥺

Frick, I need to stop procrastinating

ugh

Bim I need you to give me a reason to finish the icon in around like 3-4 hours out of pure spite

Spite is the best motivator

Or just guilt tripping, something alright?

Thanks in advance boss

[placid gull]

I can do blackmail

I uhhhh

I'll forget to update Saruman's icon again next update if you don't get a substantial amount done in 3-4 hours

[floral rivet]

Good

[floral rivet]

Frick...

[floral rivet]

Ok remind me of that in about like 3-4 hours

[floral rivet]

Scratch that

Yeah that took like 30 minutes, I don't know why I procrastinated so much

[floral rivet]

BIM WAKE UP?!

[jaunty wedge]

sleep tight, bim :)

[placid gull]

I'm still awake?

[floral rivet]

The Dark Lord's Eye Watches Closely...

[placid gull]

Uh oh I forgor the teaser for today
It's 20 minutes to midnight for me so uhh

The One Ring is changing such that a Ringbearer's death just passes to an opposite alignment player, and Sauron is changing to not be publicly known (IE is found out on first kill at the end of the day)

[rigid jay]

What my group would probably end up doing is having a bunch of people all publicly choose a single player to die, for the bit. We've done it multiple times with the Pyschopath.

[placid gull]

Make your intentions known >:)

[placid gull]

the most important teaser of all:
Bombadil will be receiving a change:

"Once per game, at dusk, you may silence all players, look at the Grimoire, whisper 1 word to 1 player, and leave."

[blazing herald]

I love this

[placid gull]

old Bombadil's pointing was a bit good-sided (because the Ringbearer moves, but minions don't), so now there's an extra layer -- the whispered-to player can lie about what Bombadil says!

IE, thanks! I like it too. :)

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @blazing herald (current: #572 - 87)

[floral rivet]

Ya know, I should make an icon for this, this seems like it'd be really simple to do

I just opened it up in Krita and it is freaking like 3 pixels too far to the left...

[topaz flame]

I still think it’s good sided, but less so. Although most travelers are good sided

[floral rivet]

yeh

[lime girder]

does this not develop to just having the meta be saying the demon’s name? incredibly fun idea though, i love it

[jaunty wedge]

who's gonna be the one to tell 'em..?

[placid gull]

The Demon for this script is Sauron, who is publicly known. :)

[lime girder]

this is what i get for looking at a character without reading the full script………

well then i think this is an awesome traveller

[jaunty wedge]

contextually it was one of the funniest things you could say-- but the theory still applies. Typically you will not see a good bombadil (or evil, for that matter) if only 1 minion is in play. (good wins if all minions are dead on this script)

[rigid jay]

The One Ring is Loric, right?

Kinda liked it being yellow. Sadge.

[placid gull]

What does this mean?

[rigid jay]

"Loric" is a new character type that TPI released earlier. It creates a distinction between fabled, who solve problems, and other ST roles that "cause" problems.

[placid gull]

Huh

Well

It sounds like it should be Loric

I'm going to have to hold an entire vigil for the yellow icon though
This is terrible news for me lol

[frozen nimbus]

but can it not simply be argued that it solves the script issues of needing a ring XD

[placid gull]

Perfect.

[rigid jay]

And if your tool doesn't provide a way to set Loric, then it's probably fine.

[frozen nimbus]

also

the bootlegger is a loric which is needed for this script to work

so you can do as you wish,

the ring also cannot be put onto any script which is seems like lorics will be able to

[latent spire]

I will also say, the way they talk about Loric give me the impression that the best ones are ones where whether or not to use them is largely up to the group / ST vibe

and The One Ring here isn't really optional like that

[placid gull]

That's a good point
Maybe that's my core issue with the concept of the character in general; it doesn't really categorize all that neatly. Not everything needs to categorize neatly, of course, but a character type feels like it ought to.

Stormcatcher is the sort of role that can be put anywhere but works best when built that way, and I'm not convinced that it needs to be categorized completely differently from fabled, but idk TPI probably knows better than me :P

[jaunty wedge]

the Shrek Ring

[topaz flame]

A green ring icon would be gross

[floral rivet]

Yo! Green ring frfr!

😄

[true badger]

Jade ring

[floral rivet]

Like that 1 SCP :0

[jaunty wedge]

sorry guys somebody stole the ring we're still looking for it

I'm sure it's no problem we'll find it asap

[placid gull]

I found it!

wait, no, that's an onion ring.

[placid gull]

Alright I think this should be the last spoiler before I release the full script

Two travellers are being replaced -- Annatar and Shelob have both been phased out in favor of the new travellers: Ferny and Lobelia.

Ferny reads:
Each day, you may offer 1 player a reminder token. Tonight, they use it, but it might misfire.
-# Ferny is trying to upsell players on the value and reliability of his "merchandise". It is more likely to misfire if Ferny wants it to, so beware if you think his alignment opposes yours.
-# His reminder tokens are "Poisoned?", "Dead?", "Learned?", and "Safe?". The question marks indicate that they don't always function well or entirely.

Lobelia reads:
Each night, you learn a player: when they die today, your alive vote permanently doubles.
-# Lobelia's job is to vulture and profiteer, engineering her influence by waiting around on or manipulating the deaths of important people.
-# Evil Lobelia can ask Sauron to kill, and good Lobelia can ask town. And, of course, either alignment can trick the opposite team into giving them more votes.

Could see myself changing Lobelia next update to be additive rather than multiplicative, but for now I want Lobelia to be able to live the high life with 8 votes or whatever.

[topaz flame]

Who

[placid gull]

Lobelia and Ferny are both book-only characters

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is extended family of Bilbo and she's the driver of petty shire politics, she really really wants Bilbo to die so she can try to inherit Bag-end

Bill Ferny is a scammer in Bree who sells the early Fellowship Bill the Pony. He's also a spy for Sauron but...

[topaz flame]

Snooze fest

[placid gull]

Girl

I don't even know what to say lol

[lime girder]

?

[blazing herald]

so how do evil travs work in this? like does the demon ever have any reason to trust a trav?

[topaz flame]

hm, true. Maybe evil travs should learn a minion instead Bim?

[blazing herald]

I like that

Or have the demon learn the travs alignment?

Either way I think is good

[floral rivet]

Oh mah gawsh

[placid gull]

This has been brought up before and considered. One traveller is specifically built with this in mind (Radagast), who now has the extra "You do not learn the Demon" text in this update specifically because an evil traveller that comes in before the first day ends does end up trusted by the Demon.

I'm specifically hesitant to add another rules modification (on top of the entire Ring) just to accommodate travellers, who serve a pretty minor role altogether.
I have done my best to structure the travellers such that they'll still be kind of interesting even if evil can't always trust them.

• If Ferny offers tokens to Sauron, it's usually pretty consequence free for Sauron. A mean storyteller could misfire a kill or poison to a minion or something, but that feels meanspirited. A misdirection to an Outsider is the realistic worst case if Sauron trusts a good Ferny.
• Lobelia can try to earn trust by voting how Sauron wants, or can play the "hey Sauron, here's the person I got, do what you want with that info" game. Admittedly, I'd always prefer to travel Lobelia in before the first day ends, anyways, so this is the weakest one imo.
• Balrog causes a sort of chaos that often benefits evil, especially incentivizing people to spend their dead votes.
• Radagast literally has that built in, being granted a wish by Sauron (so the whole game is trust)
• Bombadil sees the Grim before leaving, and it's kind of fun to me that a good Bombadil could whisper some nonsense to Sauron and an evil Bombadil is probably usually incentivized to whisper lies to Townsfolk anyways.

Basically, most of the evil roles travellers could play here thrive by causing chaos to benefit evil, rather than actively plotting with them (usually). Other times, the minigame of trusting/not trusting a traveller is fun in itself.
But I'd be lying if I said this was like...ideal. It's not, but currently I prefer it to adding another rules modification. :)

(this response applies to @topaz flame also)

[floral rivet]

#BimIsAwesome

[floral rivet]

It is going to be a thing

trust me

[jaunty wedge]

#Bimcredible

[placid gull]

#Bimtrustworthy
#GiveBimYourMoney

[placid gull]

Happy Halloween!

V7 is official, folks.
https://www.bloodstar.xyz/p/Bim/LOTR-Ringbearer-v7/almanac.html

Some notes about this update:

• I don't currently have the ability to afford my Minion subscription. I hope to, soon, but basically I won't be hosting any games of this for the first lil while and will have to rely on the grace of others in order to storytell it.
• The One Ring may or may not should be a Loric. Doesn't really matter, since I am currently still using Bloodstar, which does not have such a capability.
• Some icons still aren't great, sorry. Lumious is working for free, so be patient with their output!!
• There are too many changes for me to write a completely comprehensive changelog in one message. I'll still write a changelog, but I highly incentivize rereading the whole script front-to-back, because I believe only 2 characters have their text unchanged from v6.

I'm more than happy to discuss these designs here, and I welcome disagreement, though please be nice, this was a lot of design effort :P

Here's the JSON.
https://www.bloodstar.xyz/p/Bim/LOTR-Ringbearer-v7/script.json?8538457d

The changelog is next. Enjoy!!!

[placid gull]

=========================================================
Changelog
Evil + Big Changes

• Dying while holding the One Ring no longer ends the game. Instead, the Ring is passed to an opposing player, who may then try to pass it to Sauron.
• Broadly, there are few-to-no night deaths anymore which is quite major.
• Sauron is no longer explicitly publicly known, but is instead learned when they kill publicly on the first day.
• Saruman only gets to wish about halfway through the game, but gets a misregistry ability until then.
• Wormtongue is now attached to the Ringbearer, and the creation of an evil player is separate. If Wormtongue is in play, good must win by executing the Ringbearer after all other Minions are dead. This allows evil to ask the question "what if we're all good here?"
• Witch-King is now our sole source of poison, and still tries to "find" the Ringbearer.
• Mouth of Sauron was previously spoiled! Notably, adding +1 Outsider helps mimick a Wormtongue game, often.

---

Townsfolk + Outsiders

• Legolas has returned to his investigator-esque roots from an earlier version. On paper, the character is "strictly worse" than Investigator or Librarian, but with the context of this script, I think Legolas will prove quite powerful.
• Aragorn is more like v5 Aragorn -- a bit like the King without the Ring, and a lot like it with.
• I loved v6 Galadriel, and it may yet return, but for now we're going with this (admittedly derivitive) version. It's less complicated than other versions I have in mind, so it's in for now.
• Treebeard is slightly "nerfed" again, though notably can detect evil Townsfolk from Wormtongue, unlike a lot of other roles.
• Gimli is an info character, rather than a mechanical-death character. His point is to help good realize who to look into when the Ringbearer dies.
• Samwise has an "eavesdropping", savant-like ability. Probably the most powerful info role on the script.
• Faramir is the brand new character, using mechanical confirmation to resurrect people.
• Boromir is now a "good tinker", but his role is mostly the same as before -- telling good when evil is about to win.
• Bilbo's ability is slightly reworked, so now evil can counterplay it by holding onto the Ring until Bilbo is found and eliminated (and to work with the new Ring)
• Éowyn executes during the day instead of killing at night, with a more specific condition. Higher risk, higher reward.
• Palantir is removed.
• Frodo is an outsider now, who starts bearing the Ring and, should he pass the Ring, puts town at great risk.
• Denethor doesn't scale with Minions anymore, instead triggering once in life and once in death.
• Gollum works the same in spirit, but has the added effect that if other Ringbearers hold onto the Ring too greedily, they might turn into Gollum as well.
• Oathbreaker now has the clarifying text I fought against for so long. Warning, I'm not sure if this one will stick :P
• Merry, Pippin, and Gandalf are unchanged (for now...)

[chrome slate]

Whoah

Sick

[naive solar]

Love the new Saruman! Even more thematic than old Saruman with better balancing!

[naive solar]

While the updated Gollum ability is nice, does the ‘if you are greedy’ part only work if Gollum was in play to begin with? Or can Gollum be out of play

[placid gull]

For now, Gollum has to be in play. Good shout though, that should probably be specified in the almanac.
If it seems necessary I might change it to work always

[frozen nimbus]

I feel like it only encourages players to be greedy with the ring

[placid gull]

This is sort of intentional. Gollum, being an outsider, is meant to hurt town when in play. While I think a player "playing to win" is probably better off not becoming Gollum (their contribution to a good win with an actual ability probably contributes more to their win rate than the very unlikely Gollum win), the fact that Gollum is popular and players want to become Gollum means they will sometimes hang on to the Ring even when that's probably wrong. This is, if nothing else, flavorful; people wanting the Ring is the main point of the story :P

Basically, this both hurts town overall while encouraging players to keep the Ring rather than pass it around and create confirmation chains that have often solved the game before, so yes! I hope it does encourage players to be greedy with the Ring (wrongly).

If it becomes too frequent or groan-worthy I'll cut it later. :)

[jaunty wedge]

Imagine having 2 Gollums--
if you know who they are then the both of them are hard confirmed. Great! Now you have 2 players that you should kill asap before they both get into final 3.
if you do not know who they are, then you have an even bigger problem on your hands.

[lime girder]

why does the almanac for the ring say that when a player dies with the ring, an opposing player bears it the following night while the ability just says tonight?

[placid gull]

Uhhh that one is just a slight oddity in my writing. "The following night" is just meant to mean "the night after the day that they die" since 99% of Ringbearer deaths will be during the day.

My language should be more precise here, thanks for pointing that out!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @lime girder (current: #1218 - 16)

[floral rivet]

Finally at least Sauron has an icon, wow the guy who was assigned to that must of been really lazy

[placid gull]

<3

[floral rivet]

#GiveBimYourMoney

#WhenAmIGettingPaid?

[floral rivet]

#Jokes

[floral rivet]

#Maybe

Ugh I need to do more icons Xb

I am not even happy with all the ones I have made

Éowyn's genuinely kind of sucks

and is way too big

Some of them also might just be way too simple

like Pippin's or Samwise's or Gimli's

Tbh I don't even know how I did Witch King

I feel like I have gotten a bit better at it over the time I have been making them, so maybe I will revisit some of my older icons after I habe made every Character one

Also I think my icons might be slightly darker than they are meant to be? I don't know why, it might be how I am exporting them 🤷‍♂️

At least it isn't an issue on this script since there are no official characters to compare it to

@placid gull
Is this meant to say "happy to line his pockets"?

If so then the almanac is completely ruined

[placid gull]

errrrrrm no that's intentional 🙄

[floral rivet]

It is?

[placid gull]

yep
suuuper intentional

[floral rivet]

Mhm mhm

Point and laugh 🫵

(Don't dock my pay boss, please)

[placid gull]

You're on thin ice!

[floral rivet]

I read that as thick ice so it has no affect on me!

[latent spire]

On thin what?

[floral rivet]

:0

https://tenor.com/view/ice-skate-break-the-ice-frozen-water-being-cool-failure-gif-20380515

Apparently there is a new texture set, remind me to replace every single icon with the new colours

meh, idk, I might just keep using the current ones tbh

[placid gull]

We'll worry about it later

[rigid jay]

sadge

[jaunty wedge]

whooops

[placid gull]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[true badger]

The word is [REDACTED]

[floral rivet]

Still love bombadil

Just, ight ima head out

[jaunty wedge]

I hope that TPI releases a traveler with a "leave early" mechanic b/c it just works so well

[floral rivet]

I hope TPI looks at Bombadil and realises it is genius

[jaunty wedge]

I hope they release the Stamper

[tulip tundra]

I'm planning on running this in person soon, so put together a PnP sheet for tokens and reminders.

I started the process before the json was released so I might have missed a last second change. I think all the reminders are accurate (if not, ping me and I can make amendments).

Oh, and I recommend TPI's new script tool. Would have taken me a while to manually create a printable script from json. This cut out a lot of work for me.

[placid gull]

Thanks for this!! Will genuinely likely use this myself.

[floral rivet]

Everytime I see one of these I have a little heart attack over the fact that so many of these don't have icons

The Éowyn icon sucks so much Xb

[floral rivet]

Oh frick- Boss I swear I didn't forget about your existence

I swear

[placid gull]

That's crazy cuz I did

No not really -- I was in a car accident though (I'm okay, just roughed up)

Doesn't impact development, v7 already dropped, but it was almost the last update that ever happened.

[floral rivet]

Oh god

🍪

Take

[floral plinth]

Bro, it should impact development in that it should stop/slow down

Like take some time off 😭

[prime marlin]

Does Lobelia keep learning players to potentially double after the first time

Bc if so thats really funny

[placid gull]

To be clear, I took time off when v7 released and hasn't resumed. What I was trying to say is that the accident doesn't impact anything as far as this script is concerned
(Other than, perhaps, my totalled car meaning it will be even longer until I can afford Minion to host games again)

[placid gull]

Yes, there isn't technically an upper exponential bound besides player count and the willingness of both teams to let Lobelia keep firing
Very funny is my hope :)

[floral rivet]

7 Hugs, that basically makes you a celebrity

[placid gull]

<3

[jaunty wedge]

WHY DID I NOT KNOW THIS SOONER

[placid gull]

Apologies boss

Next time you'll be my first call :P

[floral rivet]

Oi, you are our boss

[placid gull]

I'm your boss, Cole's my boss
there's a hierarchy to things

[jaunty wedge]

what?! but I thought Lumi was the boss!

[floral rivet]

:0

[floral rivet]

:0

I think the hierarchy is in shambles

[jaunty wedge]

wait... but if you're the boss,

and you're the boss

and I'm the boss

then whos holding the ring?

[floral rivet]

Uhh, I thought Bim had it?!

[jaunty wedge]

Bim does have it!

...right?

[true badger]

Sorry I just witnessed someone stealing the ring

It’s probably on the black market by now

[floral rivet]

:,0

[placid gull]

Shhhhhh!!! Sauron might hear you!!!!

[jaunty wedge]

no it's okay Bim probably turned into Gollum last night

[tender vigil]

Script is super fun, thanks!!

My nerdier friends bullied me because supposedly it’s not meant to say “…alliances lie shattered like isildur’s Bane…”

Since Isildur’s Bane is another name for the Ring, which famously cannot be shattered

[jaunty wedge]

that's great ta hear! :D

[placid gull]

Did I write that?
It's meant to say Ilsildur's blade, lol.
Thank your friends for correcting me :P

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @tender vigil (current: #3052 - 1)

[floral rivet]

Oh-

I forgot I had a job

:,>

I still get paid on vacation days right?

And uh, Sick leave

yeah sick leave

cause I was uh...

Sick

For that whole time

[floral rivet]

I think Bim is dead

Again

[blazing herald]

Rip

[prime marlin]

Smh, we must find the demon who did this

[blazing herald]

I think Sauron did it

[placid gull]

Dw Faramir res'd me

Do we think I should start doing kickstarter scams or pyramid schemes so I can get a minion subscription and host games of this?

[jaunty wedge]

nah we don't need to start a pyramid scheme, you can join mine

[floral rivet]

But pyramid schemes are fun!
||(Trust)||

[jaunty wedge]

my pyramid is made of trampolines :D

[placid gull]

alright but I'm not getting rugpulled, how do I know the money is guaranteed?

[jaunty wedge]

uhm

just trust me?

[placid gull]

Oh, I already do that. Things are working out for me.

[floral rivet]

You all wake up on Christmas day, excited to open your presents. Under the tree you find something special, a new hat in higher resolution! You get so excited that you accidently use your ability and leave town

[opal turret]

• Looks at the Grim
• Points to someone named "Merry"
• Leaves

[floral rivet]

:0

[modern trail]

one ask minion and demon knows who Wormtongue first night ?

[jaunty wedge]

Wormtongue's advisor (aka the Ringbearer) is excluded from Minion & Demon info. Imagine it like Lil' Monsta: it is not a player. It can't be drunk, it can't be poisoned, it can't learn it's fellow evil players since you'd be talking to a token, and no-one can learn "who" Wormtongue is because nobody drew the Wormtongue token from the bag.

The only wrinkle is that the Lil' Monsta has an ability that tells the Minions who the Demon is through clever design. Since the Wormtongue does not, it is excluded from Minion & Demon Info.

[modern trail]

if executed Wormtongue ringbearer. wormtongue out of play register as wormtongue?

[cinder patio]

#event-listings message

if anyone is wanting to play I have an event for Feb 7

[floral rivet]

Love this is still getting attention

[cinder patio]

i can't wait to st this on sat. so far 5 people are maybe.

[jaunty wedge]

I'm so sorry I didn't come... ran through some tough luck on that weekend

[placid gull]

I can't believe I missed this!!!
did the event get fired?

I hope I catch the next one

[grim hinge]

this script looks cool

[placid gull]

Thank you!!!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @grim hinge (current: #60 - 733)

[placid gull]

It hasn't gotten a lot of attention these days because I don't have minion anymore, so it's nice to see folks still checking it out!!

[boreal steppe]

If Wormtongue is the only minion in play, and Sauron, the only living evil player, kills the Ringbearer, does that mean the One Ring passes to Sauron at the same time that the last minion dies ?

In that case, does Good win the tie?

Second question: Can Sauron accidentally kill Wormtongue? Or must wormtongue be executed in order for Wormtongue to die (and be removed from the ring)? It seems like the implication is that it can only die by being the final execution after all other minions are dead 🤔

and also, this script looks amazing and i would love to run it in person lol

[placid gull]

The reason good wins the tie here is because the Ring passing to Sauron is conditional, and doesn't technically happen until the player has actually died, in which case Evil has already lost.

[placid gull]

Yea, Wormtongue can't really be "defeated", evil just loses when good executes their own Ringbearer after all other minions are dead.
It provides evil the opportunity to bluff "guys what if we're all good" at the end of the game, and it forces good into tough situations where they have to risk giving the Ring up in order to try and win.

[boreal steppe]

Ahh i see :o

If I'm understanding this correctly, "Wormtongue" is never removed from the ring and therefore lives again after the Ringbearer dies and passes it to a new living player, and it only registers as dead at the moment they are executed or killed by Sauron? Lol, sorry, I'm used to Lil' Monsta just "dying" and ending the game

Ahhh... that's right, characters don't "die" then "are removed" from the game, they simply are dead or aren't dead. This makes sense

Awesome!!

Very interesting, so in a 1 minion, 1 demon game, the Ringbearer must never die for Sauron to win-- The ring has to be passed/in the hands of the newly created evil player. Sauron needs to scare good into passing the ring to them without accidentally killing The Ringbearer, that's brilliant

[boreal steppe]

thanks for answering! I'm 100% making a PnP for my friends lol. The powers are so simple, but so thematic and exciting. And I love that Sauron is an outed demon

[placid gull]

Yes, you're correct here. Wormtongue persists between players.

[placid gull]

I can't take all the credit. The core of the concept for this Wormtongue was created by @jaunty wedge and shamelessly stolen by me :)

[placid gull]

I'd love to see the result, do report back!! I've sadly never gotten to run this in person, but have always wanted to.

[jaunty wedge]

(more accurately I chose to help)

[floral rivet]

(Legal stealing)

[placid gull]

CAPITALISM!!!!

btw I can afford minion this month so uhhhh there might be a game or 2 incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!

[floral rivet]

:0

If I can be there I will!

[placid gull]

ended up with some spontaneous spare time this evening -- booting up a lobby
I dunno how many folks will be free at this time on a Friday though

[placid gull]

no dice! Maybe next time :)

[topaz flame]

Should have pinged @ gamers in my server

[placid gull]

OMG YOU'RE RIGHT
I'll do that next time thanks Lemon :)