Ringbearer: Lord of the Rings

[lunar prairie]

Yeah, ok, it's fine then, basically a budget spy of some sorts

I was arguing against something I imagined

[analog forge]

I like the idea that at some point WK could potentially go blab to Sauron if it's down to say a 50/50

[lunar prairie]

I am good with a budget spy + assasin

[analog forge]

Especially if they out in public after they are safe from execution

Unless Gimli is in play haha

[lunar prairie]

Well then

If it's settled

We can playtest

[analog forge]

Oh good lol

[lunar prairie]

Oh wait

Still

Even with this Witch King

Ok, well the issue is now not necessarily with Witch King

Am I looking at the old almanac

Wait a sec

Yeah

I was

😭

[analog forge]

lol

amazing

[placid gull]

😭

[lunar prairie]

It's this one, right?

[placid gull]

Did I forget to update the one up top?

Yea that should be it

[lunar prairie]

Ah ok

So the issue is not with kills being red taped

That was the old issue

The new issue

Is with evil being passed the ring being red taped. We have: Legolass, Galadriel, Boromir and Bilbo

[placid gull]

That's on purpose.

[lunar prairie]

But like

Then evils are never getting the ring

Unless you run the exclusionary character selection where you only include 1 of those

For example

[placid gull]

I decided that evil had 2 win cons:
Killing RB
Getting ring

Getting Ring is the less fun win con by quite a lot, and it kept happening, out of nowhere, with no way for good to find out.

So now it's much easier to get kills and much much harder to get the Ring
So now when evil wins that way it had to be fought for very hard

Basically, for example, if evil ever gets the Ring and wins, I want it to be because MoS poisoned bilbo and they killed Galadriel earlier in the game

[lunar prairie]

For example, what if we had Galadriel, Legolass and Boromir, but no Bilbo. Would that be worse given that we could productively use the slot for something else. It's not like you are going to put all 4 of them in 1 game

[placid gull]

Etc.
It should happen late when those characters have been dealt with

[placid gull]

I could see stripping exactly 1 to fill a more needed role.

[lunar prairie]

That's progress

We can basically cut down on Bilbo, the least fun of them

But then it's slippery slope

If we can survive without Bilbo

By the same logic

For example, what if we had Galadriel, and Boromir, but no Legolass. Would that be worse given that we could productively use the slot for something else. It's not like you are going to put all 3 of them in 1 game

I am fine with 2 of them and wouldn't push it further

Also when I say no Legolass

I mean no second part of the ability

I like our investigatorish character

We can replace the second part with something better

For instance

I had a really novel idea, specifically for Legolass

[placid gull]

I would and have put 3 in a game.

[analog forge]

I did like that in our long games we had two Legolasses and in neither game did the Legolas pings include a minion. However, the info was still useful in the solve

I'll also say at a Legolas it was very fun to learn one had the ring. I was in on the secret!

[lunar prairie]

How many of them procced though?

All 3 in one game?

[placid gull]

I like legolas rn but
Would be interested for your novel
idea, though.

No, but that's sort of the point

If I only put 1 in the bag they probably won't even proc and evil gets the lame win very easily

If soldier mayor and ravenkeeper all are in a bag, the demon nearly never picks all 3

[lunar prairie]

Why wouldn't they? This only works if Boromir or Galadriel dies early, which is pretty specific. If the goal is specifically to prevent early wins, then they succeed at the role

[placid gull]

I've seen how easily all of these roles die and/or get disrupted

[lunar prairie]

They are also picked together significantly less together. And Mayor's role isn't necessarily a kill baiting one (I actually hide as Mayor and hope I am not targeted)

[placid gull]

Or monk picked players, or saints that want to get killed, or whatever

Same principle

[lunar prairie]

Monk has is completely different, though, you protect a player who is not yourself, you don't want to be targeted

[placid gull]

I'm not trying to argue semantics of my comparison, the core of the matter is there's a very specific thing I'm trying to cultivate and I don't think less than 3 roles will suffice to do so.

[lunar prairie]

Do they die early? If so, then that's more of a fluke. Unless you define early way too broadly. I feel like D3 evil wins are fine. If you are going for more than that, then you might as well just never do it.

[analog forge]

I think people are usually pretty happy when there are close calls in a game. I haven't had this happen yet, but I imagine that it would be kind of thrilling to be a minion, learn the ring would have been passed to you, but Bilbo got the ring instead

Bilbo will be the ringbearer so can't full out that day

Nice tension

[placid gull]

It's not that wins aren't fine, it's that often those wins couldn't have been stopped.

But I agree that 4 is overkill with holding the ring being possible.

[lunar prairie]

Couldn't have been stopped? Barring Gollum thing (which I don't like), it's up to players to pass the ring

They can always hold. If they decide to risk

It has to be a genuine risk

Because otherwise

We are setting some insane benefits for little risk

[placid gull]

Which is why 4 is overkill

[lunar prairie]

But why is 3 not an overkill? Players can still hold?

[placid gull]

But I think, and have no practical indicators otherwise, that 3 is the right number

Script building is cooking, not baking, and there's not some on-paper formula that can make the right amount of everything

I'm okay to drop one and see how the meal tastes before I go changing the whole dish

[lunar prairie]

I can agree with that from purely pragmatic perspective, but

Say we drop Bilbo

And go for playetests

In order to decide whether 2 or 3 is the right number

We need all 3 of them being somehow in the game (either being bluffed as, or in play). Otherwise, we'd have no idea

If 3 is better than 2

[placid gull]

Which I have and would and will do!

[lunar prairie]

Alright 🤔

Ok, sure, I am fine with playtesting with 3 given that I believe that I will be able to successfully convince you that it is an overkill after playetests happen

[analog forge]

My unscientific take is that the number of pass-to-evil safeguards is maybe not too much, but it will take more playtests to see if it needs to be dialed in

The individual abilities seem good in a vacuum for their intended purpose, so pulling the token and seeing it work is likely to be satisfied

The risk seems more like "That felt too easy for good/too hard for evil" and I think you need to collect a bunch of those experiences before it becomes obvious

[lunar prairie]

I am thinking Bilbo/Legolass would probably be the one to drop. I like Galadriel and Boromir independently

For Legolass

I had something like this in mind

If you want to preserve the whole learning about ring scheme

You can go for

[analog forge]

Curious: what would Legolas feel like if he got two pings and simply learned when one of them got the ring?

No evil ping part

[lunar prairie]

Ok, so the idea was

Legolass learns 2 players

1 is evil

If good one dies first, Legolass learns 2 people , one of which is evil. If evil one dies first, he learns false info

It makes really interesting dynamic

Where you kind of

You want the minion dead

But you also want to learn that second pair of true info

[analog forge]

Feels kind of bounter huntery

[lunar prairie]

Yep

That's the feel I was going for

That's a small win for me, because I was hoping for this reaction

Means I am not hopeless at design

[jaunty wedge]

that feels fun & funky

but also
the good player who was executed learns 2 players they can trust

[lunar prairie]

This also solves the perennial investigator problem of being executed first

[jaunty wedge]

well--
Legolas could be a bluff

[lunar prairie]

Fair, you can make it drunk instead of strictly false

Then you don't know what you get if you execute a minion

So basically

Execute a goodie - learn 1 of 2 is evil

Execute an evil - learn random stuff

You want to go for the first one

But you also want to go for the second one

[analog forge]

I don't hate the character concept. I wonder if that kind of character fits on this script.

Basically I don't know if a minion would be very incentivized to bluff Legolas

[lunar prairie]

I think they very much would. You have incredible incentive to push on 2 good players, and then potentially clear your second minion

You also have good reasons not to be executed

[analog forge]

Evil bluffing bounty hunter is usually to lead kills and be disruptive, but those plays are less common in Ringbearer it seems

But that's a limited take

[lunar prairie]

Because then you don't get the second pair of info

If anything

This is in an absolutely wonderful evil bluff

This is like

Bluff from heaven

You get to

[analog forge]

It's definitely an aggressive bluff

[lunar prairie]

1. Push on other players
2. Have a reason for pushing hard
3. Have a reason not to be executed
4. Have a potential to clear a fellow evil player

5. Have a potential to implicate another 2 good players

If you are coming off as socially good, that's 2-3 wasted executions

You also have a reason to hide, for what it counts

[jaunty wedge]

"You start knowing 2 opposing players. When 1 dies, learn again, but if the evil player died, get false info."

[lunar prairie]

Thanks for the wording!

[jaunty wedge]

[analog forge]

So the best case scenario for Legolas would be kill the good player, and know that 2 of the 3 living pings are evil

After one execution

[lunar prairie]

I think the only concern I have

Is in 1 minion game

Where you kind of can win right there

[analog forge]

Sauron would be heavily incentivized to immediately kill any outed Legolas

[lunar prairie]

Oh, I have a fix

Yeah, that works

[analog forge]

Well a Legolas could always learn Sauron in the second set

[lunar prairie]

Yeah, true

Wait no

[jaunty wedge]

it seems very main-character-y

[lunar prairie]

Ok, forget that

So

Legolass in 1 minion game

[analog forge]

I had that thought too

[lunar prairie]

Learns Sauron and a good player

So basically

A Steward

[analog forge]

Legolas could drive the first 4 executions

[lunar prairie]

Unless they want to execute them

[lunar prairie]

You can always give Sauron in 2nd pair

Alright so in 2 minion game, you are basically a buffed investigator

In 1 minion game

You are a steward

That's perfect

[analog forge]

In a 1 minion game, if the good player is executed, and Legolas learns anyone and Sauron, it confirms the good dead executee, the other N1 ping is evil, and the other N2 ping is good -- ok maybe that's too helpful lol

[lunar prairie]

Oh, I think, you misunderstood the proposal. The proposal was for Legolass in 1 minion game to learn Sauron and good player. If they want to get more info they would have to execute that good player

This works as a bluff too

Imagine you are Saruman

You go to some good player

And you are like

Hey

I learned you and Sauron

We kind of need to execute you so that I learn info

Or you can play it like a steward

And confirm your fellow evil player as evil

[analog forge]

It's an intriguing mechanic, but in the context of the handful of games I have played I feel like it would stick out compared to the other characters in terms of oxygen usage and having far more actionable info than other roles

[lunar prairie]

Well

We have what

Treebeard who learns alignment, Boromir who learns that all players who had the ring are good so far, Galadriel, who who learns that all players who had the ring are good so far. Gandalf,xwho can make a very creative info learning wish

And also

We were discussing this with Bim

We wanted actionable info

And nobody seemed to object to current Legolass which btw also learns 2 players of which is evil

And you can always give the second pair to Legolass

As Sauron and someone good

So if you had no issues with current Legolass in terms of oxygen space, this one shouldn't be much different

[analog forge]

Legolas can be very loud at the start of the game if you advocate for just killing both pings

[lunar prairie]

Yep

Same as old one

[analog forge]

And that can play into evil's hands if there is Denethor or poison

[lunar prairie]

Same as investigator

[lunar prairie]

Yep

Which is a good thing

We want that sort of interactions

[analog forge]

Actually in both games the Legolases were a touch quiet. I was loud day 1 but then pulled back on pushing on my second ping

[lunar prairie]

We want players to actually have 2 "real" equally viable choices

[analog forge]

And just for being that loud I had calls for my execution by the end of the first day

[lunar prairie]

Well, then, that's good for us right? After all, the issue was that Legolass would take too much oxygen and now apparently not

[analog forge]

Well depends on who pulls the token. I usually try not to be seen as someone driving town's executions

But others are very gung-ho

[lunar prairie]

Others would be gung-ho with the old Legolass too though

My update doesn't really change it

If anything

Now you don't want to die

[analog forge]

Yeah but their info is limited to 2 pings rather than 4

[lunar prairie]

You are incentivized to stay hidden

[analog forge]

Anyway, I will say I think your version is playtestable

[lunar prairie]

Now you have a mechanical reason to be quiet

[lunar prairie]

But the second pair of pings would be Sauron + good player usually, which wouldn't make sense for them to be loud on

They wouldn't be pushing usually beyond the first 2 pings

On which they could be pushing on anyways with the old version

[analog forge]

I dunno, get Bim to chuck it on a script and we can try it out

lol

[lunar prairie]

We had an idea here

[lunar prairie]

@placid gull we had a fun idea here

[jaunty wedge]

the thing for me is that it feels like it has main character syndrome
Evil will have to put resources into stopping this guy-- and even if they do they already know 1 evil player

[lunar prairie]

Why? Say we are in a game

And I am Legolass

I see 2 people

I execute 1 of them and learn Sauron player and Cole

Why would the evil team have to kill me here?

[jaunty wedge]

it just feels like extra info for the sake of extra info

[lunar prairie]

Old Legolass was a much worse bluff for evils for example. We also got rid of the ability that we need to get rid of

And we gave Legolass reason to hide

And we gave evils more possibilities to do plays (like covering for a fellow evil player)

Also, we have increased bluff space. Now players bluffing Legolass can choose to put 2 non-Sauron players into pings

And everyone will have to wonder if they actually saw 2 other people as sober as good, drunk as good or sober and evil

Certainly, it is better than old version, which is what ultimately matters

[analog forge]

I mean I do like Legolas right now, I don't know if it even needs fixing

It seems roughly as bluffable as other YSK characters for minions. Certainly easier to fabricate pings on the fly

[lunar prairie]

But like, all the issues which you described with new one apply to the old one and I gave reasons for why we would think new one is better

Not to mention

Bim agreed that 4 roles preventing evils from being passed the ring is too much

Well, this is one of those

[analog forge]

A character that gets actionable info for executions ( a good thing to have a little of) and a character that has so much info they are driving the town (a bad thing that you shouldn't have too much of) is a balancing act/spectrum

[lunar prairie]

But in that respect

New Legolass is in the same category as old Legolass

If new Legolass is driving executions

Then so did old one

Because fundamentally, I didn't add a second investigator, I added a Steward

And this one has reason to stay quiet

So potentially, this one will drive executions even less

[jaunty wedge]

here's the thing
this script needed legolas because players simply weren't executing

[analog forge]

Current one is very similar to investigator, which is a pretty known quantity of evil-hunting loudness that's dialed in well.

Current Legolas has some incentive to try a quiet game, too. Might wait for Denethor claims or evidence of MoS, or a ping claiming to cause a night kill. Sauron might kill one of the pings if they are not public.

[lunar prairie]

Well, all of the reasons you named for old one to stay silent, apply to the new one

So nothing changed in that respect

You still might want to wait for MoS or Denethor

[analog forge]

Day 1 you will hear towns going "Anyone heard of any Legolas pings?" If no, town has struggled to find something to execute on

[lunar prairie]

Well, this is a good thing for new Legolass, right?

[analog forge]

Anyway, I think I'm starting to repeat myself

[timid hearth]

I would say the treebeard learning characters would be too powerful as it would be another source of hard confirming info as opposed to being a slightly stronger balloonist

One thing I would petition for in terms of text changes and night order changes are to have wyrmtongue before Mouth of Sauron chat so they can join the chat the same night they change and having Mouth of Sauron poison until they choose again so that it poisons gollums ability to drop the ring as well

[lunar prairie]

Ooooh

Bim is typing

My fate is being decided

Ok, the typing is quite long, is that a good sign?

Probably not

[placid gull]

Funny story about the wormtongue thing; I 100% thought this was the case already and realized last night that it wasn't so, and fixed it immediately.

MoS poisoning gollum interaction is interesting, I'm not sure if that interaction is worth the slightly weightier text. Will consider.

[lunar prairie]

Oh nvm

Was completely unrelated

[placid gull]

Okay, now it's your turn...

[jaunty wedge]

pffffft

[lunar prairie]

Ok, that's a lot of typing

Not good

Critique is usually longer than praise

[placid gull]

I think in general, I agree with Cole. This proposition is an interesting take on Bounty Hunter, but I don't think it fits on this script in my opinion.

Evil hunting is hard to balance here, as evil walks on such a tightrope with no fodder sans Oathbreaker. All it takes is one confirmation on Legolas' good ping for it to become probably better BH. And BH would be completely busted on this script. Legolas could easily find the entire evil team very fast if evil doesn't kill them, and a "must kill" is pretty rare in botc for a reason, and the few that exist are very specifically built-around (IE King) or famously a bit broken (IE Lycanthrope)

I think you should use that idea somewhere, though.

[lunar prairie]

I am actually good with this critique, cause it was already raised. This is not a must kill whatsoever. Imagine this scenario. I am a Legolass, see 2 players. I execute one of them (so far up until this point everything is exactly the same as old Legolass) and I learn a Sauron player and Bim. Now, I know that if I executed a good player, Bim is good, if I executed evil player, Bim can be evil. This is not a continuous BH. You aren't meant to give 2 consecutive pairs neither of which include Sauron (barring exceptions)

And at that point

In that scenario

I know Bim is either good or evil

Evils have very little reason to kill me

If we execute you

[placid gull]

I think it feels very against the spirit of the game for showing Sauron to be built in like that

[lunar prairie]

Then I learn Sauron and good player again

Why? On contrary, this is playing around outed demon

Synergy and stuff

[placid gull]

And if that's the case I may as well say "if you killed the evil learn a good"

In which you're a super-steward-hyper-investigator-overdrive-edition

[lunar prairie]

Well, you are worse investigator and worse steward combined

[placid gull]

I don't think a player drawing the legolas token assumes they'll see Sauron after execution

[lunar prairie]

Here is why

Investigator learns minion type and Steward doesn't have 50% chance of learning someone at random

[placid gull]

And it's more complicated, less elegant, and there isn't currently anything wrong with Lego as he stands

[placid gull]

The odds arent really 50% on a confirmation heavy script like this, but that's not really the point here

[lunar prairie]

I wouldn't say it's less elegant, it's elegantly using outed demon for info. And the issue with Legolass is that it is one of 4 red tape roles and we wanted to cut one

If you think it is too strong

You can just go for

[timid hearth]

For MoS all you would need to change is poison until your next choice instead of poison until dusk wouldn't need any special interaction there would also allow them to poison samwise's decision which I don't believe they could do before they could only temporarily prevent that protection

[lunar prairie]

"You start knowing 3 players, 1 of which is evil. When the first of them is executed, learn again, but if the evil player died, get false info."

Now it's straight up weaker than it was a second ago

If you think it was too strong

[placid gull]

Strength aside, I don't really know that I want the script to revolve around this.

[lunar prairie]

Now you don't even have to out Sauron in 2nd pair of info

Well

My proposed 2nd ability

[placid gull]

MoS acts (or at least should act) before Samwise iirc

[lunar prairie]

Is arguably weaker than the current one

So the script definitely

Definitely

Won't revolve around it

This one

"You start knowing 3 players, 1 of which is evil. When the first of them is executed, learn again, but if the evil player died, get false info."

We have

[placid gull]

But yea the "until you choose again" text is slightly more text than "until dusk" but I'll see how it looks on the token before I decide.

[lunar prairie]

Self confirming ressurection, we have guys who can confirm that everyone who held the ring so far are good, we have people learning true statements, we have wishes, we have demons choosing players to become evil...

The script wouldn't revolve around my 2nd version

That wouldn't even be near the top

[placid gull]

This is noble + some extra, sometimes relevant text

I really don't think that's what the script is missing.

[lunar prairie]

We added Legolass because we needed actionable info. So I am proposing a better scheme of actionable info

The script doesn't need it now, because it has Legolass, that's why I am proposing a replacement

[placid gull]

I don't think Legolas fails at the task of actionable info.

[lunar prairie]

I don't think either, I think this one is better though

[placid gull]

I disagree. :)

[lunar prairie]

Why? Why is Legolass better?

You didn't like a slightly stronger Legolass or a slightly weaker Legolass

[placid gull]

Clean, simple, intuitive, and in my personal opinion interesting, are the big points for me

[lunar prairie]

And neither of my proposals are interesting?

Not the stronger one not the weaker one?

[placid gull]

They are interesting, but not in a way that I personally feel is in line with the script

I like the way that current Lego is interesting more

Contextually

[lunar prairie]

Why would they not be in the line with the script?

[placid gull]

I think we'll talk in circles if I keep going down this road.

I don't like the way this sounds or feels with everything else I know about my script, is all I can really say at this point.

[lunar prairie]

Eh

Fair

But I am kinda disappointed, not because my version didn't make it

But because I feel like it wasn't given a fair hearing. I totally respect your vision, but it's such a stretch to say that something like Merry and something like current Legolass are interesting for this script but not either one of my proposed versions. Basically, it seems like you find current Legolass to be optimally balanced (you don't want weaker or stronger) when I see very little reasons for that. It has 2 abilities, basically investigator and basically Galadrielish. These aren't necessarily related and we even agreed that some of the red tape ones have to go. So I just don't see how this seemingly average current Legolass is exactly right in all ways. I am totally fine with discarding my proposals, but I just can't agree that current Legolass is fine.

[placid gull]

I didn't intend for it to feel that way (and I hope the headache I'm having irl didn't make me sound more sour than intended) but I have played a lot of Legolas games and loved the way Legolas worked nearly every time. That's my evidence for "optimal balance" (though I think that phrasing is perhaps overly-confident)

[lunar prairie]

Hold on

[lunar prairie]

Oops, wrong chat I am playing a text BMR rn

[jaunty wedge]

the truth is that information needs to be limited
Current Legolas:

• Learns 1 good & 1 evil player
• Has a small failsafe that can allow for safer style of play

This suggestion can:

• Learn 1 good & 1 evil player OR confirms a player
• Doesn't fully control which of their pings is killed
• Is rewarded with information either way (even false information is good, because it is still information)

Let's say Legolas plays perfectly. They manage to sneakily take out one of their pings on the 1st day and now Legolas has learnt info on 4 players--
Evil hates this outcome. Townsfolk who were out of the loop hate this outcome because they couldn't contribute to their team.

it's just not fun.. which I think is important to consider

[lunar prairie]

Alright, I will try to give my perspective

[lunar prairie]

Current Legolass also doesn't fully control which of their pings is killed. New Legolass isn't necessarily rewarded with information, because I later clarified that it would be arbitrary information of false information.

[lunar prairie]

I don't think evils would hate this outcome. This is a standard investigator situation (same with current Legolass) + a potential for maybe a Steward confirm (which isn't even guaranteed and requires you to spend an execution on good player. Even in the ideal scenario you just mentioned it's not close to devastating

If you think that's too strong/you don't want to use Sauron in pings, you can use my weaker version

[analog forge]

I think we're been talking about this proposed ability text for like 3+ hours now. I think it's gotten its fair hearing

I think it's time to kill your darlings

[lunar prairie]

I am just responding to criticism here

I am aware, that probably this isn't happening

[placid gull]

If we're due for a subject change, I've got 2 setup bracket abilities I'm considering

Saruman [-1 Outsider] and Samwise [+ Frodo]

[lunar prairie]

Well

I think you can balance Saruman with wish strength fine tuning. If you do -1, you'd just accept stronger wishes

I think it's fine as it is, but I don't hate the change

As to your second change

I think Samwise has kind of the same issues as Legolass and I don't particularly like that it is just a foolmaker without necessarily being tied to the script's theme (after all, that's what we are going for after saying that my Legolass was uninteresting, right?)

Sorry

If that sounded kind of bad

Genuinely sorry

I didn't mean

Like, if Samwise in it's current form is considered to be interesting enough

And my Legolass isn't, then I don't know what to say

Probably should just drop my Legolass idea

I think I am only annoying you

Sorry if that's the case

[analog forge]

@placid gull What's the reasoning for Saruman [-1 outsider]? Is it because he is too strong and needs to strengthen town to compensate? Create uncertainty about determining Wormtongue through outsider count? Leave room for evil to bluff outsider?

[placid gull]

The latter two.

I think -1 Outsider will be more boon than bane here; I tend to think (especially these days) that Outsider modification by itself isn't enough to tweak a character's power. But I think, here, it helps conceal Wormtongue and leave room for Outsider bluffs (which are relatively rare/hard to sell on this script).

I have concerns that Wormtongue is already sort of hard to track and this may make it harder, and I also wonder whether the Outsiders are really the place I need to be looking to cast doubts, but it's something to ponder.

---

Though, particularly on this script, Outsiders are harsh enough that modification does at least impact the power level to a degree, and Saruman has had relatively weak wishes on average, I think.

[analog forge]

One thing to consider is that the existing evil roles with -1 outsider, Godfather and Vigormortis, start with some information that lets them make an informed outsider bluff

And it is not trivial to pass the bluffs to Saruman in this script

[placid gull]

That's reasonable to say
In 1 Outsider games you know they're all safe, but otherwise Sauron would have to get the bluff to you.

Which is maybe not great for the balance of player count

[analog forge]

You wouldn't neccesarilly know they are all safe, because of Wormtongue, would you?

I guess you would know because you'd learn 1 less minion right?

[placid gull]

Well, you know whether Wormtongue is in play bc of minion count yea

But it's true that even in 1 outsider you're not always safe if Wormtongue is there

I'd like to keep an eye out for something in this space, but I think I'm sold that it's a bad idea for now.

[lunar prairie]

I can try to come up with better Samwise ability

But for that

I'd need to know

If you are willing to change it

And

What do you want from Samwise to accomplish

[analog forge]

Have you seen Samwise accidentally protect an evil yet?

[placid gull]

Samwise is currently my least favorite townsfolk on the script, hence why I'm looking at this change.

The struggle with Sam is that my goal is for him to combo in an interesting and balanced way with Frodo, possibly but not necessarily in a protective manner.

If [+ Frodo] is on the script, Samwise has some confirmation of someone else on the board and will have an easier time assembling the Dream Team.
Though, it's an addition that would make me like this version more, rather than just having a different version that was better, which I haven't yet come up with.

[analog forge]

I do like thematically that Samwise is some kind of protection role

[placid gull]

Once, and good lost long before it could've mattered.
I find that Sam rarely triggers to begin with, let alone on an evil, and if they do trigger on an evil it's probably because they chose to "test" whether their ability worked

[analog forge]

Samwise thematically is the sidekick that supports others

[placid gull]

And thus spent the protection

[analog forge]

I wonder if Samwise might be a good public claim role

[placid gull]

Oo oo this was actually discussed once!

[analog forge]

Like, blueskying an idea, publically claim Samwise to lightning rod a Sauron pick

[placid gull]

Cole had the idea of Samwise declaring their protection publicly, and it was definitely interesting

[analog forge]

Jump in front of the bullet style

[placid gull]

Yea definitely an interesting bluff

[analog forge]

Not particularly bluffable unless you put in caveats

But mainly just the concept of "Publically claim Samwise to help another player"

[placid gull]

Right right

[lunar prairie]

If you want that

You can go for

"Each day, publicly choose a character. If you receive a ring that character immediately receives it instead"

[analog forge]

Uh, another stupid idea I just had, is moving Aragorn's ability to Samwise, since Samwise is eavesdropping through the window (potentially drop ringbearer buff), to open Aragorn to something else.

Having typed it out thought I think that's a terrible idea lol

[lunar prairie]

That's your synergy with Frodo, I guess

And evils can bluff it as well to recieve a ring

Each day probably too strong though

[analog forge]

The entire circle including Sauron going "I claim Samwise and choose Frodo" every day

[lunar prairie]

Once per game probably better

[lunar prairie]

Yeah, that's a good point actually

Oh well

[analog forge]

Thematically Samwise would also be a good candidate for "You start knowing the ringbearer", stealing the idea from Galadriel

[lunar prairie]

You can make it private during the night, I guess

And then if you recieve the ring, someone else does, but it's kind of boring

What help does Frodo need btw?

[analog forge]

Frodo just never gets passed the ring early enough to reach the win con

[lunar prairie]

Is it weaker than Mayor?

[analog forge]

Frodo is incentivized to not hard claim it generally

[placid gull]

Mayor has prot from the demon which Frodo notably lacks

[lunar prairie]

Well

You can give Frodo 5 anonymous words per day

[analog forge]

Mayor is a social game, Frodo is too mechanical

To compare it too closely to Mayor

[lunar prairie]

Or you can let Frodo steal rings

But then again, we would need to cut the red tape heavily

[analog forge]

Interesting idea

[lunar prairie]

And I feel bad proposing it, cause I am not sure we can cut the red tape enough

[analog forge]

"Once per game, you can volunteer to take the ring"

[placid gull]

Frodo stealing rings feels artificially un-earned, probably

[placid gull]

Oh but this wording is so on theme

[lunar prairie]

It would be more like choose a player each night

And then like

If they have a ring

Steal it or whatever

But for that to work

We really need less stuff like Gimli and the L word guy

Which I dare not name

[analog forge]

What would happen to the rest of town if Frodo volunteers to take the ring and the intended pass doesn't go through

[lunar prairie]

Are you asking me?

[analog forge]

The bluffing/worldbuilding space gets pretty weird

[analog forge]

Frodo is 100% safe from witch king at least

Hm, Frodo volunteering to die to Gimli is a nigh-unbluffable confirmation

[placid gull]

And MoS, Saruman, and Palantir...
Very intended designs :)

[placid gull]

I actually think that's sort of cool!
Especially if a Saruman wishes to make that happen to themselves, or ST gives a witch-king themselves as an option bluffing Frodo...

[analog forge]

What happens with Frodo on the grim when Palantir dies? (And does that change if he has the ring?)

[placid gull]

Frodo misregisters the same as the Ringbearer to Palantir, far as I'm concerned.

[analog forge]

Bluesky idea: What if Frodo and Sam shared the 3 day timer together? So any combo of those two players holding for 3 days works

We've seen Merry and Pippin make an interesting combo together

[lunar prairie]

That's really mean to the evil team and also I feel like that just kills a design space for 1 character. Cause then we basically have 2 Frodo's on the character sheet

Mechanically that better represented by [+1 Frodo]... but that's weird thematically

We would have 2 Frodos

I have a radical option

But I am not even sure it works

Nope, it doesn't

Nvm

I have another radical idea but this one works

If you hold the ring for 2 days, destroy it. Removes evil win condition, but idk

Idk if we want to remove the ring

Ring is borderline good for the good team

So probably a bad idea

[analog forge]

Thematically I think that's what Frodo holding for 3 days represents

Frodo gets a lot stronger in a big game, interestingly. 3 minions - Frodo is safe from all of them. Sauron less likely to snipe Frodo randomly. Game lasts more days, so 3 days is a smaller portion of all days

[lunar prairie]

You can always do N+1, but I am not sure if it's fair for Frodo to only hold the ring for 2 nights and then win

I think it could work if Sauron learns when Frodo gets the ring

Or if Sauron learns when Frodo is in play

Sort of like with King

[lunar prairie]

N is number of minions

[jaunty wedge]

I think it's fine if it's difficult
evade 2 sauron kills, at least

[placid gull]

This is really cute, if not practical. :)

[jaunty wedge]

Frodo has to survive, tho.. since they have the ability

[placid gull]

Hm

[jaunty wedge]

Frodo gets "[+Samwise]"
Samwise gets "Ringbearer: Frodo must bear the ring 1 less night."

can't instantly end the game-- but Frodo only has to survive 1 exe & sauron kill

[placid gull]

Hmm

[jaunty wedge]

"Ringbearer: If you pass the ring to Frodo, they need bear it 1 less night."

[placid gull]

I don't know if I like Sam being so dependent on Frodo

But...maybe it's a necessary evil...

[jaunty wedge]

maybe there doesn't have to be any [+Frodo/+Samwise] business

it could just be a little easter egg

I dunno if I like the possibility of "pass the ring & also garuntee Frodo survives"

"Ringbearer: if you pass the ring to Frodo, protect them for free."

[jaunty wedge]

Maybe this is ongoing, so if Samwise dies, Frodo must survive all 3 nights

[analog forge]

I dunno, I feel like this is the wrong path

Knowing I contributed to it ofc

[jaunty wedge]

yeea
3 is just the right amount

anything less & evil has no counterplay

[cinder oyster]

Actually, how is the Palantir misregistration intended to work?

Obviously the One Ring isn't shown (so the game doesnt end immediately), but is the ringbearer misregistering intended to point the Sauron towards the ringbearer? (eg. this player's character is wrong, therefore they're the ringbearer)

Or is it intended to help the good team? (eg. the demon can't completely trust what they're seeing, a strong info might be hiding with the ring)

[jaunty wedge]

If good reveals the entire grim, the ringbearer is revealed

since the ringbearer does not know what Sauron saw them as

but Sauron still learns everyone else's character

[jaunty wedge]

the reason why they can't see who has the ringbearer is cuz is that'd be absolutely broken
the Ringbearer might not know that they have to pass the ring since the Palantir might not out immediately

[analog forge]

The ringbearer reminder token is on the grim, so there is one player that is definitely not the ringbearer

ST can put it on an unuseful player like Sauron himself if it is sufficiently late in the game

[placid gull]

Tuning in here, both Cole and Nick are correct.
It's supposed to discourage town from freely sharing info post-palantir, while simultaneously concealing the Ring's location.

[jaunty wedge]

where we have our discussions

[lunar prairie]

I think 3 is good personally. On top of that, he is also safe from minions (for what it counts). We'd need to see if he feels weaker than Mayor

[jaunty wedge]

might b able ta join if you're still playin in 3 or so hours!

[timid hearth]

ended up logging for now but Ill certainly be back on later

[jaunty wedge]

mmkay, mmkay

[timid hearth]

I am back online and set up for lotr whenever people do want to join https://botc.app/join/homebrew_fun

[lunar prairie]

@timid hearth @jaunty wedge @placid gull @analog forge I have a great idea. We can run a text game of Ringbearer. That's going to be really important for balance, cause you can analyze much better in slow format

[jaunty wedge]

bet

[placid gull]

I've only played text once, and didn't particularly enjoy it, but honestly I'd do it.
I'm not available for any live games over the break because I've got family stuff, but a text game I could actually do...

[frozen nimbus]

You can't st if you haven't played 2 games and you can't st experimental if you haven't std a non-experimental game

[placid gull]

Yea, I would be a player there

[analog forge]

I've never done a text game of Clocktower before

tbh I sort of don't "get" it

[lunar prairie]

I think I can ST though?

[frozen nimbus]

Have you done the things I mentioned? (I haven't played with you before but if so: yes you can)

[lunar prairie]

Yep

I have STd non-experimental

And I played more than 2 games

[frozen nimbus]

Great

[lunar prairie]

@placid gull @analog forge are we doing it then? I can ST this for you as a text game for playtesting purposes

[frozen nimbus]

Just join the experimental queue or create an rsvp game then

If you're running it you can have the others in kibitz to consult with as you wish as well

[lunar prairie]

How would I create rsvp? Just creating a thread for that?

[unkempt ruin]

Yep. Create thread in #1173738081036283924 and run >reserveGame [min_players] [starting date] in it.

[placid gull]

I'm down/would participate

[lunar prairie]

Alright, this will be interesting

[lunar prairie]

Do I have to guess a starting date? What if we don't have enough players by then?

[lunar prairie]

Before that, though, don't we want to remove one of 4 characters that we've discussed?

[unkempt ruin]

You choose which date (but at least 2 weeks from creating post). If you don't have enough by the date - you don't get the channel and have to try to RSVP again or join the queue.

[lunar prairie]

Oh, there is a queue I can join?

I think that might be simpler

[placid gull]

I'm working on another update, but I haven't reached a consensus alternative to any of those characters
If we have 2 weeks or so, the update may be out by then
Besides, I think I'd prefer for the text game that we run a version of the script that's been tested already, just because of possible unfamiliarity with the medium

[unkempt ruin]

Yep, it is simpler (and better shot to get players). The queue is in https://discord.com/channels/569683781800296501/1136656523146305666.

To join, the command would be something like >joinTextQueue [type] [script] [availability] [notes (not necessary)]

For example >joinTextQueue experimental "Ringbearer" "ASAP"

[jaunty wedge]

mmkay

[lunar prairie]

Do I post an image of the script somewhere in that chat? I am not sure people would know what Ringbearer is?

[unkempt ruin]

You can post it, yes.

[lunar prairie]

Hm alright

And how would others sign up for it? Do I immediately get a channel?

[unkempt ruin]

Carat will ping you with channel offer once queue reaches you. Then you can start getting players.

[lunar prairie]

Perfect

Alright

So then I just need an image of the script from @placid gull

And I can start setting up

[lunar prairie]

Character sheet I mean

@placid gull I really need a character sheet to have any chance of people signing up 🙏

[placid gull]

uhhh

aight hang on

my laptop's resolution is not cooperating here but I'm workin' on it

[jaunty wedge]

control+scroll wheel not workin?

[placid gull]

is there a more recommendable way to get a character sheet image?

pressing C in-app presents me the characters in a 1-collumn list that doesn't fit on screen

which is odd

I could pop-out the script and zoom out but that looks...well

not great

[jaunty wedge]

shall this do?

[placid gull]

looks better than mine :)

@lunar prairie Look above ^^

[lunar prairie]

This one seems great

[jaunty wedge]

had to go into full screen AND zoom out 90% for this one
but we ball

[placid gull]

excellent

[lunar prairie]

Here you go

#1136656523146305666

[placid gull]

no access for me
I probably have to go get the text role or smth?

ok fixed

[lunar prairie]

Is there any way to see what position I am in a queue

[unkempt ruin]

You can check pins in the queue thread.

[lunar prairie]

Pins?

Oh

Oh ok

[lunar prairie]

Hmmm, the last pin is from March

#1136656523146305666 message

[unkempt ruin]

Yep. The message gets updated every time the queue changes.

[lunar prairie]

🤔 it didn't add me though

Unless I did the command wrong

But I copy pasted yours

[unkempt ruin]

You are looking at base queue.
There's experimental one #1136656523146305666 message

[lunar prairie]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh

Thanks

[jaunty wedge]

Time to refresh myself on the rules of text games--
in my head it's just like Chess's daily mode with a 24 hour turn timer, but I imagine there's some more to it than that

I see, I'll get the hang of it

the scariest thought is holding the ring for 48 hours

[lunar prairie]

@analog forge @nocturne anchor @timid hearth @hardy totem @rigid jay anyone of you willing to join our Ringbearer text game over at #1136656523146305666

@placid gull this is actually going really well, we already have 6 people just from pre-ins

Bim, we have an actual mod signing up for our game 🥳

[rigid jay]

When the grim is shown to the Demon, does Frodo always misregister? Because the grim being shown is an outsider ability.

And what happens if Samwise picks the Ringbearer, and Sauron kills them while Boromir is alive?

[placid gull]

Yes!

[placid gull]

I suppose this is currently up to interpretation, but I think death prevention takes priority over death redirection, so I think Samwise triggers first and Boromir lives.

[placid gull]

Wow, that's neat and surprising!

Lemme figure out how to sign up

[lunar prairie]

Already did for you

We are at 8

And this is before the actual recruitment stage

[placid gull]

Oh alright nothing for me to worry about then lol

[lunar prairie]

We should be playing text more it's so much easier

I am kind of wondering, do we want to make the most enjoyable game for advertisement of the script or more of playtest a around rough edges

[placid gull]

I think at least for the first text game try and make it as enjoyable as you can

No promises about how often I'll do text (depends on how much I enjoy this, I guess) but you've obviously got my total support either way

[nocturne anchor]

idk how those work

[lunar prairie]

It's very simple and there will be a lot of people who will be more than happy to answer all of your questions

[nocturne anchor]

if i'm free sure

[lunar prairie]

Do you want me to pre-in you, so that we can ping you when it starts?

[jaunty wedge]

so I'm not concerned about starting the game in early December but how long does it usually take for text games to open?

[jaunty wedge]

@lunar prairie

[lunar prairie]

No idea, but probably shouldn't be too long

[jaunty wedge]

mmkay

[lunar prairie]

Currently we have 8/12 people signing up, before the registration even open, so unless something crazy happens, I'd expect the game to start within 1-2 days of me getting the channel.

[jaunty wedge]

mmkay
I'm just worried about the "when you get the channel" bit, since I dunno how many they usually keep open

[lunar prairie]

Well, as far as I know

When a game ends

Whoever is next in a queue gets the channel

So however many we currently have is how many they keep around

[analog forge]

How long does a text game last?

[nocturne anchor]

sounds good

[jaunty wedge]

!!!!!! guys !!!!!!

you should join

the super cool Lemonlobby

[topaz flame]

RUNNING LOTR! https://botc.app/join/playing.whatever

[topaz flame]

(for Bim 🙂 )

The evil wins one day early. Cole started with the ring, passes to Lumi, who gave it to Chloe the minion and also protecter her, sealing the game for evil. But Hano also got an Oathbreaker win! Boramir never popped, Pippin learnt that WK was in play.

Also Chloe wished that players MUST pass the ring and cannot pass it to the player who passed it to them

[floral rivet]

I will stab Chloe

[jaunty wedge]

awwww

it's so sadge because I heard "Oh, Samwise has the ring? We have this in the bag!"

[topaz flame]

@placid gull The gandalf almanac says Gandlaf can make 2 wishes also, if gandalf is poisoned when he makes an ongoing effect wish can it still take place later or is it wasted and gone?. Is it like gossip where even if they're poisoned it takes effect if there un-poisoned by the time it goes off? Or virgin where if poisoned when used it's gone

Got to final 3 again. Evil lost. Mad a small ST mistake showing ringholder night 1 to WK, is ok. MoS poison sniped Merry, then sniped treebeard, then sniped Gandalf every night after that. Gimli didn't act, Chloe had ring N1 sent it to Ninja but Bilbo caught it. Frogo useless again :(. Aragon learnt Gandalf. Sauron shown Grim night 2

[jaunty wedge]

I imagine it's like Philo?
you think you have the ability until you're no longer poisoned

[timid hearth]

Well in that case it never actually activated so it would have been an unfortunate circumstance.

Im suprised I made it to final 3 to win again though

[analog forge]

For the Bilbo catch, are people seeing it eventually outed and leading to the death of the evil it was passed to?

[lunar prairie]

For everyone, who signed up for that game, I will run it, but before that I need to run a B3 game

But I am keeping the list of everyone who signed

[timid hearth]

Yeah, in that Chloe handed it to Ninja who claimed they received it and held it until the end of the game but instead Bilbo caught the ring and passed it to me which was outed later and helped us identify that Ninja was evil in the 50/50

[analog forge]

Cool

Rules question, if Bilbo gets a catch through Denethor, does the good player it passed to still learn they would have gotten the ring?

[jaunty wedge]

I would assume so
"(they learn this)" is part of the ability's effects when successful

[timid hearth]

Yes that is the case

I was Bilbo once and had received the ring through Denethor although I believe there was a mistake where they were not told

but were supposed to receive it

[analog forge]

That's interesting bluff cover

[nocturne anchor]

if memory serves i was the person who passed it (or at least this has occurred including the mistake in a game that i passed the ring)

[timid hearth]

Yeah I believe so

[rigid jay]

I'm using this homebrew as a testing ground for some upgrades to a digital grimoire that some friends are working on.

It turns out that the JSON requirements are like 85% of the way there, with the glaring exception that fabled are hardcoded for some reason, so I need to make them into a character that can be put on the grim.

[topaz flame]

Running right now! https://botc.app/join/thatsthecase

[jaunty wedge]

graaaah
you play at times I cannot fallow

[topaz flame]

I play mostly every night around this time

and like an hour or 3 before this time

[floral rivet]

just join anyway

it doesn't matter if you physically can't, just DO IT

[topaz flame]

The oathbreaker started as Gollum who started with ring. Got wised into Oathbreakrer. Merry got wormtounged night one. Galadrial got Denathor messed with, making Bacon appear evil, so they executed him.

[floral rivet]

Why do I always mess something up in these games Xb

[placid gull]

okay, I've got a bunch to catch up on. I'll start barraging everyone with messages now.

[placid gull]

Fairly typical 1-minion game, where it feels like 1 decision accidentally decides everything.
Well played on Chloe's part, and that's a powerful wish in 1 minion+oathbreaker. Glad to see Hano get the OB win, too.

[placid gull]

how did Palantir go? Looks like a strong evil win, did town wait a day and out everything or was Sauron just very informed about the game state?

[topaz flame]

(Good won that one)

[placid gull]

Gandalf can make 2 wishes if he makes a wish, dies to Sauron, gets the Ring again, and makes another wish.
At some point this was slightly easier to accomplish, I'll have to re-read the almanac and see if it's clear that this is an edge-case.

As for poisoning, I think I'm going to leave that vague for now, try it a few ways and get a feel for which is the most fun. Philo seems most likely.

[placid gull]

(final 3 seems good favored with outed demon)

[topaz flame]

The Pal proc did basically nothing from what I remember. No one claimed, the game went on as normal basically lol.

[placid gull]

This definitely has happened, and is sort of the intended case for the ability.
Currently, Bilbo feels sort of polarizing, so we'll see if he sticks around as-is.

[analog forge]

Btw I'm putting "wish Denethor-proccing when it should fail" on my bingo card

[placid gull]

Woah that's awesome! Happy a tool I made is helping with tools that others have made.
Would love to see the finished product!

[placid gull]

I don't know how this happens, but it sounds like a fun situation...

[analog forge]

I don't know either

But garden me into Gandalf starting with the ring enough times and we'll figure it out

[rigid jay]

Integration is mostly done. Currently working out how the Fabled will work.

Not really a fan of how the images poke off of the tokens, but I'm not sure how to deal with it.

[placid gull]

Clean evil sweep. Night 1 Wormtongue was a very interesting play, did it work well for town? I think the free bluff has value with no MoS or Witch-King.
Did this game feel any closer than it looks? Cuz it looks really rough for good in the way things lined up (boromir always gets killed early somehow)
What was the Saruman wish?

[placid gull]

the answer is that I need to properly resize the images in bloodstar, but it's really really annoying to do :)

the reference tokens on Bloodstar are pretty wildly inaccurate

[rigid jay]

I wonder if changing the One Ring ability text to say "if the ringbearer dies, the ring passes to a player of the opposite alignment" would be more fair.

Also: playing with an actual ring?

[topaz flame]

it was an evil sweep for sure. The denathor mis-reg on Galad was probably a bad move but whatever.
"If there is an oathbreaker in play, give them a minion ability. If not, make one." I accept because there wasn't one so I made gaullum into OB sense he had the ring N1 and probably wasn't going to get it back.

[cinder oyster]

oh i kinda love that way more, it makes bilbo even stronger since its able to block a ringbearer getting killed (rather than just an evil getting passed the ring manually), but personally i just like that it means town still gets 1 more day rather than every ringbearer being just a temporary saint, i also havent seen enough games to know if ringbearer dying is particularly frequent tho

also bim, have you made like spreadsheets to track how frequently you're putting each character in the bag and how frequently they're winning?

[jaunty wedge]

it's just that
it's very unsolvable if more than 1 evil are alive

[cinder oyster]

wouldn't good just immediately lose without any change, so any solvability is better than an immediate loss?

but if just "a player of the opposite alignment" is too much, what about like "the ring passes to the nearest minion"?

[analog forge]

I do worry that tweak will just work out to "If the ringbearer dies, play 1 more day and then lose", which might be unfun (but it might be fun, who knows. I am not a good judge of what people actually find fun)

"a player of the opposite alignment" is fine if it passes to oathbreaker

There is, strangely, still the option to just pass it directly to Sauron and end the game immediately. Don't ask me what circumstances that would be appropriate in

I can't remember if I've seen a game where the ringbearer was executed. Maybe once? But it doesn't stick out as too frequent in the handful of games I've played

Sauron insta-wins are more common

[topaz flame]

I haven’t seen the ring bearer executed too much (like twice or so) but I have seen them Sauron sniped a few times. Even on day 1 lol. I think it being passed to an evil player could be fun (Sauron’s army having to actually get the ring back to him in lore) although it makes Bilbo and Boramir WAY stronger I think.
Or maybe “evil player or outsider” for a gullem win.

[placid gull]

Oh wait this is fun...

Actual possibility

[placid gull]

THAT'S SUCH A COOL WISH

[placid gull]

I was tracking win-rates and making post-game summaries instead of a spreadsheet, but I've slacked a ton on tracking. I get too caught up in actually running the game, and my design tends to be more vibes-based.

Evil has won something like 2/3 of games with current version, I think.

[placid gull]

I agree about this concern.

[placid gull]

Yea snipes are waaaay more common than executions on Ringbearers.

I could definitely be convinced to playtest that change, though, and see how often it makes good play a meaningless day and how often it means good stands a better chance.

[analog forge]

There's also the possibility of "guys I was the ringbearer when I died, red alert!" could turn out to be a fun sudden death mechanic too

[rigid jay]

I think "nearest minion" is probably the best.

I wonder -- what's the fewest number of players alive at the end of the game? Because you're practically never getting to final 3 with this script.

[jaunty wedge]

we've gone ta final 3 twice, it's very good-favored

[placid gull]

yea, usually when final 3 comes around Good has the game solved because someone passed the Ring to the last remaining good player so the game is effectively over

[rigid jay]

Also -- does "Ringbearer:" need to be a term in the descriptions anymore?

I remember old versions of this script used to give almost every townsfolk some special additional ability if they had the ring, but not anymore.

[placid gull]

it's shorter than "if you bear the Ring", so even though it's sparring, it's useful

[rigid jay]

Stupid question: when run in the app, how is Minion and demon info displayed on the night sheet?

I'm still working on night order, and although I have it down correctly, I don't know how I go about reinserting Minion and demon info.
(Also, Samwise's night description appears to be wrong.)

[jaunty wedge]

usually it's there if ya have more than 6 players but

although I
don't really know what yur askin for?

might b old

[placid gull]

If you're wondering about position at all, the JSON is broken but both info are supposed to be at the very beginning of night order

Thanks for the Samwise note, I'll edit that.

The nitty gritty of the almanac and background reminders is the hardest part of this script, actually.

[cinder oyster]

also just a wording clarification, does galadriel get to choose when their "learn the ringbearer" procs? or does the storyteller

coz most player choosing abilities tend to be like "Once per game, at night, choose to learn who has it" rather than just "learn who has it", which implies the player can't control it

[nocturne anchor]

you choose, having been Galadriel, and on the language point the fisherman chooses when and their ability only says 'once per game, during the day' every character that includes 'choose' in their 'once per game' ability makes a choice with that ability other than when it's used

[placid gull]

Like Rose said, Galadriel chooses :)

[nocturne anchor]

idk if a decision ended up being made on this but haven't been able to drop the idea of making Radagast's ability more interesting so here's this
but that also required giving the ability to a new traveller for thematic reasons (so idk what Radagast's new ability should be and taking inspiration from the Mercenary in Fall of Rome):

Traveller
Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards, alternatively could use their names)
Once per game, during the day, Sauron may allow the Ithryn Luin to make 1 wish [+1 Ithryn Luin of the opposing Alignment]

this imo provides a more interesting tactical landscape for Sauron and the town as the risk of 1 wish for each team would be more balanced as both are sincere attempts
and the opportunity is provided to kill 1 of the Wizards to avoid any good wish happening but risks only a good wish taking place

obligatory interested in thoughts

[placid gull]

Well I do think I like this
main issue is you'd need 2 people to travel in/out simultaneously

(and Radagast is currently the most "fits into basically any game" traveller)

[nocturne anchor]

can't believe that slipped my mind, perhaps partially solved by adding the joint exile the mercenaries have?

and interesting point on Radagast being the easiest to slot in

[placid gull]

mercenaries?

[nocturne anchor]

Fall of Rome traveller the bit about exile is what i was referring to

not initially included to give town more agency

might be better solutions or it might not be solvable and that would likely be ok

[placid gull]

honestly, I'm less concerned about each one being exiled separately than I am about requiring 2 players in order for it to travel
obviously Fall of Rome gets away with it, but I think players have shown resistance to even 1 traveller (and I'm not super keen on 2 most of the time myself)

[nocturne anchor]

fair enough but i think that's more about traveller mechanics than each traveller itself so the option probably doesn't hurt the script

i can probably concede the point though

[rigid jay]

The problem is that scripts like these don't have the necessary info required to insert those steps intelligently.

Imagine if Philosopher and Poppygrower were on a custom script. The Philosopher must go before the Minion and demon info. How would that be communicated?

Anyways, fun fact: the grimoire utility I've been working on is specifically designed with real-world playing in mind.

[jaunty wedge]

fun!

[placid gull]

Nice!

[topaz flame]

@placid gull we're running a musical chairs LOTR

[topaz flame]

Musical chairs LOTR

Sauron's seat was annouced and killed by dice roll. Gandalf wish was to have 1 treebeard use. Cole started as Gollum into Dentahor then got false Merry info. Juno had the witchking for a day but didn't want to be evil so swapped again

[placid gull]

I'm sorry for your loss

[jaunty wedge]

it was.

an occurance

[topaz flame]

It's not too bad

[floral rivet]

It was amazing

I spectated

it went well

[placid gull]

I wish I could've made it, had an event tonight

[floral rivet]

I mean if you are avaliable this is probably going to continue for a while

[topaz flame]

@placid gull does Gollum learn when they drop the ring?

[placid gull]

Yes, barring some really weird (probably wish-involving) scenarios, the Ringbearer always knows that they do/do not have the Ring

[placid gull]

still entertaining company. Tomorrow is probably my first free day all week :)

[topaz flame]

Evil win! Sauron got the ring! MoS sniped Legolas n1 causing them to see Gimli and Plantir. Samwise dies day 1. The ring was passed by Boramir to Saruman n1. They died from their own pass and Galadiral leant this and used their ability as well. They very decisively killed Saurman who wished to know if an oathbreaker was in play. Frodo did nothing 😦 . When Saurman died Legolas got passed the ring who that night passed it to MoS! Gimli killed the Palantir that night too!

Evil got the ring twice!

in a row!

[jaunty wedge]

seems like a fun game!

[karmic meteor]

is there a character sheet that exists for this awesome module ?

I am interested to run it IRL

[jaunty wedge]

Here!
This is the best I could give ya @karmic meteor

[karmic meteor]

Oh yeah, the json. I really like this module from what I've read, so I might do a character sheet one day and use it IRL when I have time, if of course the creator allows me

I'll post it in here then

@placid gull

[jaunty wedge]

oh yea
and if ya run it irl, use an actual ring if you can

[karmic meteor]

I love the idea !

[placid gull]

Cole is an unofficial script ambassador™, so usually I agree with everything they say :)
Otherwise, if you plan to put a proper character sheet together we'd love to see it! I wish I had the talent to get a nice-looking one besides the Almanac.

also for everyone, I should be more available going forrward than I have the past week or so. Might jam a few games, even!
(I do have a ton of homework, though)

[jaunty wedge]

yea, Bim also agrees that [redacted], [unauthorized], and [data explunged] are [level 5 keycard required]

[topaz flame]

Playing rn https://botc.app/join/running.whatever

[topaz flame]

stuff happened. Ring bearer got sniped.

thoughts @placid gull ? I might try it out in a few games

[topaz flame]

I've done something horrible

[topaz flame]

What have i done

Gandalf wish "3 good players and 3 evil players are granted a wish but are not told this"

Gandalf did not have the ring but pointed out that denathor (Nick Savage) could activate it even without the ring. I said 'we ball'
Only 1 got used by Cole to activate Doomsayer at nominations because sometimes I say "Death and DOOM" when I open noms, and everyone always tries to doomsay.

[analog forge]

I pulled the Denethor token and thought this would be a chill easy game

Narrator: it was not

[jaunty wedge]

aaaaaand we broke it

get the glue, Bim

[analog forge]

Recaps: Game 1, 9 players. Pulled Pippin

• First time I started as the Ringbearer
• Sauron Gandalf killed Day 1, first Gandalf rez I've seen
• First time I saw a Galadriel wait until night 2 -- it paid off
• Pippin and Merry both got "Merry/Pippin is a demon bluff" which was a very funny bit of accusation turned into confirmation when we realized how hard it would be to bluff the statement. (Probably a bit on the strong side in 9 players, but very enjoyable).
• We got it down to a likely 50/50 between two townsfolk and won Day 2. The confirmation chain went - Pippin & Merry out info in town and trust each other, I pass the ring to Merry, Galadriel learns Merry has the ring, Gandalf is rezzed, the 2 outsiders are both out (although both were lying about WHICH outsider they were)

Game 2: 12 players, I pulled Denethor

• Again started with the ring
• Sauron Gandalf killed Day 1 AGAIN.
• Had a nice chat with Cole who claimed I was in a Legolas ping, I thought this was enjoyable to hear as Denethor, so I trusted him.
• Night 2 began a wild ride. I passed to Cole who I thought was probably good. Then I learned I was evil Wormtongue. Then I woke up and I had died, and also Boromir died (and Gandalf rezzed). I was VERY confused.
• It turns out Cole was the Witch King, and had Witch-King killed Denethor (I have no idea why, you will have to fill me in on your strategy here).
• Boromir COULD have been Denethor-triggered so I wasn't sure if had passed to an evil or not. For some reason I was too scared to go to Sauron to say who I had passed the ring to.
• If I was still Denethor I would have advocated for Cole to die after a Boromir death, but being turned into Wormtongue won us the game.
• Cole passed to DwayneP and then outed it to Sauron to buy town one more day so his ridiculous Denethored-Gandalf-wish-to-give-other-people-secret-wishes Wish could go off, putting a Doomsayer in play.
• I had THOUGHTS on a Doomsayer being in play on this script -- but when the wish shenanigans were discussed at grim reveal (and how the game was already basically over) all was instantly forgiven

I was building Eowyn Denethor-proccing on Denethor himself since I was in a (made up) Legolas ping (mechanically that didn't actually work since I was Wormtongue by the time)

Being a dead Wormtongue was actually ok in the end, very interesting. I still had a lot of active play pushing on people for being Wormtongue candidates, and it is much more believable coming from a dead player

Denethor-proccing a Gandalf wish, even if it is a very stupid wish, should probably be one of those "Yes but don't" situations

(Although it was incredibly entertaining)

[frozen nimbus]

Isn't this just wildly more powerful in base 1 vs base 3 minions

Giving up 1 minion ability for an extra evil is very strong

Look at mez, 1 of the most powerful minions

Giving up 3 abilities is a lot

[jaunty wedge]

It turns out Cole was the Witch King, and had killed Denethor
The night I was passed the ring, I knew that Boromir was in-play (since we hard-claimed on day 1) and did not know Gandalf's wish
"alright, since Boromir is going to die & we might have a Galadriel," I figured, "I either die or end the game. Either way, it's my final day, so I'm gonna go down swinging and use my Witch-King kill tonight"
That night, when I learned neither Denethor or Oathbreaker had the ring, my only reaal option was to kill Denethor, since Oathbreaker was on my team
turns out both were on my team! whoops

funnily enough, I had never talked to Sauron about having or passing the ring-- I only did to get my Legolas bluff
Zuki found out who I passed the ring to on their own

[analog forge]

Wild game

That makes total sense, especially since you had the ring when you made your choice

Funny, the one and only Denethor misreg was the crazy Gandalf wish. Wormtongue wasn't in play to grant another one, and then when Wormtongue was made, it took Denethor out of play

[topaz flame]

Ya lol. The only reason I put Doomsayer in-play from a wish (something I would probably say no too) is because the game was over the day before and Cole intentionally extended it just to make that wish.

[ancient cairn]

If anyone in here sees this im attempting to run this on the official

[placid gull]

Oh wow today's events were wild

I might be available in a couple hours

Don't know if I'll be trying to boot up another game of this, seeing as it looks like it's been run all day, but we'll see if there is demand for it

[placid gull]

Yea, this seems legitimate.

[placid gull]

I've got something in the test tubes of my lab. I'd recommend holding off until I let it out of the cage :)

[placid gull]

I would love to boot a lobby up tonight, but sadly there are many open games (medianoche is even running a spanish language homebrew rn)

I've decided to open a lobby just in case, but I'm not expecting much.

[analog forge]

Congrats Bim, we've played enough to develop a double-bluffable metagame

I pulled Saruman and wished to gain the Gandalf rez ability and for Sauron to learn this. TBU outed as Bilbo bearing the ring after I was rezzed, because he thought I would be more creative than to do that wish, which is already passe and basic

I thought it was fun that Bombadil pointed at the real Gandalf before peacing out

Actually thinking about this I don't know if that means we had a good Bombadil or an evil Bombadil, which I think is peak Bombadil

[forest dirge]

This is a set up for Gandalf to one day wish for Sauron to learn that the Saruman has gained the Gandalf rez ability and trick them into killing their own Saruman.

[analog forge]

Ooh I like that

I also think that a meta-duel between Gandalf and Saruman is so perfectly thematic

[jaunty wedge]

SAARUMAAAN THEEE STINKYYY

[analog forge]

I now have a document of brainstormed Saruman and Gandalf wishes so I can redeem myself in the eyes of this community after my shameful performance last night

[jaunty wedge]

Trapped is attempting to run Ringbearer once more!
get it while it's hot

[placid gull]

Your performance was admirable, ignore the haters
I've wanted that particular saruman wish to work out for a while :)

[analog forge]

Aw I'm just joking about it bothering me. I wonder if I will be considered a classic Saruman play eventually, like an Imp star-pass. I wanted to do it because I saw back-to-back games with Gandalf day1 rezzes

I certainly would be less likely to hand the ring to a confirmed Gandalf in the future

Actually in our game I got kind of lucky, because our Witch King both burned Bilbo's ability, and used his own ability to kill Boromir, so by the time I received the ring the failsafes were used

Also the real Gandalf was pointed at by Bombadil which made Aya back off from outright double claiming in public

Speaking of Gandalf double-claim, it would be really fun the next Gandalf-rez for Oathbeaker to claim Gandalf

[floral rivet]

Sauruman wish:
I wish to be publicly announced as the as the Sauron at the start of the next day

[placid gull]

this would either be beautifully confusing, or solved by town very quickly; either way, you should definitely try it :)

[floral rivet]

:)

[jaunty wedge]

teehee

that's a surprise tool that can help us later!

[floral rivet]

I wish for become the snake charmer and choose Sauron

[jaunty wedge]

SNAKE CHARMER IS CRAZY

[analog forge]

That would be a funny gambit

"Guys I was turned into a good Gandalf last night, execute me if you don't believe me"

Outing your minions is much riskier than on SnV though

[forest dirge]

Could the Gandalf not just hold onto the ring they used to make that snake charmer wish and win lol

[analog forge]

I think part of the wish would have to be you lose the ring

But I was thinking it would just be a weird Sauron bluff

[placid gull]

Running a game if anyone's interested!
https://botc.app/join/lotr

[timid hearth]

Is the new almanac posted yet?

[floral rivet]

I have been making new icons for this script

[jaunty wedge]

they are good

[forest dirge]

I like the bread, lumi

[jaunty wedge]

the bread is v good

[floral rivet]

Thanks!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @jaunty wedge (current: #896 - 19)

[floral rivet]

Thank you too!

[floral rivet]

yay!

[floral rivet]

Sneaky Peaky

[lunar prairie]

Woah

That's beautiful texture

Almost like the official

[jaunty wedge]

oooo

[lunar prairie]

@placid gull can you play rn?

Or maybe even @jaunty wedge or @analog forge

Cause there is a lot of lobbies

We can probably try to playtest in one of them

[jaunty wedge]

o?
I suppose I could play, yea
what's the plan?

[placid gull]

I can be a player if one gets going I think

[placid gull]

Not yet, I'm trying to fix travellers rn

Bloodstar busted them

[lunar prairie]

Sure

Let's see

I have a lobby

@placid gull

@jaunty wedge

[jaunty wedge]

oh?

[lunar prairie]

One sec I will send it

https://botc.app/join/killing time %3Ad

[jaunty wedge]

save them, bim!

[placid gull]

I fell asleep! Tragedy!

Hang on

I'm trying

[placid gull]

Great game all!
Now every win condition has been met except Frodo

[analog forge]

Did evil win in a final 3?

[lunar prairie]

Yep

[placid gull]

It was technically a final 4, but good couldn't afford not to execute because the Ring would be found

[analog forge]

Oh that's true! Interesting math on that

[floral rivet]

Thanks! I just used the one that you can find in this discord server

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @lunar prairie (current: #497 - 66)

[floral rivet]

Yeah that is the point

You messaged me at 4 am

[lunar prairie]

Fair

[floral rivet]

I normally only start playing at 5pm

Sometimes earlier

[lunar prairie]

My bad, I was just pinging everyone who might be even somewhat interested

[floral rivet]

All good

[jaunty wedge]

I don't see the problem. I was awake

[next fiber]

peak samwise

[floral rivet]

Wow

[floral rivet]

😄

[floral rivet]

There are 3 pixels off on this...

Fixed

[floral rivet]

Peaky Sneaky

[lunar prairie]

We got a professional illustrator. That's actually so impressive. Since the start, I thought getting good pictures would be the hardest part of this homebrew

[floral rivet]

thank you so much!

[hard patio]

Gave +1 Thanks to @lunar prairie (current: #496 - 67)

[floral rivet]

the issue is I seem to only be semi good at them when I am making them for other people Xb

Also I am basically just tracing over a reference image

[jaunty wedge]

it's peak

[floral rivet]

😄

[next fiber]

[floral rivet]

🙂

[rigid jay]

Can Sauron kill a dead player?

[rigid jay]

Eg: there are 3 players alive, but Gollum has the ring.

...Actually, hmm... that doesn't really work out, does it.

[next fiber]

I think so

the wording doesn't specify alive

[rigid jay]

Also -- does Sauron get announced before N1 begins?

Getting ready to run this for the first time.

[jaunty wedge]

chances Bim look at the amount of lobbies open & said "oh, there's too many. I shouldn't run, today:" 40%

[rigid jay]

The group has successfully locked Sauron out of the room. Goddammit--

[placid gull]

Yep!

[placid gull]

I usually do, but some STs don't. Currently it's optional, rule it however you rule Vizier in the base game.

Really the only difference is like...treebeard might be sad if they pick Sauron before they know

[placid gull]

I actually haven't looked today, so we're in the 60%
I'm caught up with homework cuz it's finals so I have 5 papers to write in a week

(might squeeze a game in if I get a paper done early, but no promises)

[analog forge]

Reward it by giving them "Minion" and burning a Denethor misregister on it, then enjoy watching them try to convince people that's what happened

[placid gull]

Get this man in the ST seat immediately

[rigid jay]

I ran 2 8-player games. Both kinda dissapointed. Ringbearer needs to be played with at least 2 minions.

In the first game, I put Aragorn, who saw Saruman and Gollum.Saruman was execued Day 2. Eowyn never passed the ring.
In the second game, I decided to give Boromir the ring for some reason. They immediately got killed by Sauron. Probably should've had Gandalf start with it.

[topaz flame]

Ya, in 1 minions games you just have to be careful with info you give the good team. Bim normally only likes playing 2 minion games.
I don't know how Aragorn saw two people, but if you mean you put Legolas in then that's a bad move. I've never but Lego in a 1 minion game and probably never will. Even in two minion games most of the time I'll have Lego see an oathbreaker.

[rigid jay]

Oh yeah, I meant Legolas.

Legolas is too OP, it seems.

Anyways, I'm more sad I didn't get any wacky wishes.

[jaunty wedge]

Boromir startin with the ring isn't too bad, ya just got unlucky

[topaz flame]

Ya, Legolas is very powerful. I rarely put them in and I’ve never done it in a 1 minion game. It’s like investigator where most of the time the best thing to do it just kill both of the pings.

[placid gull]

I broadly agree. I'd like to figure out how to balance the script better with 1 minion, but it's really rough. Should probably disclose in the almanac that 10+ is suggested player count.

[placid gull]

If I put Lego in a 1 minion, it's going to be in an Oathbreaker or MoS game, maybe Denethor, or maybe if I know I've got a very cunning Saruman.
Though that does cause the sort of situation where most Legolas's assume their info was distorted, and the meta involves disregarding it.

Tldr, I probably would do Legolas sometimes in 1 minion, but only if the evil team was pretty strapped already.

[placid gull]

Just for my own curiosity, if you were tasked with balancing Legolas for 1-minion, while keeping the effect somewhat similar, what would you do?
The answer is probably just turning him into a noble, right?
That seems a bit uninspired, but probably a lot more balanced at all player counts...

[topaz flame]

Without turning him into noble the only thing I could think is a [+1 minion] minion or better yet making Legolas a [+ Oathbreaker, -1 outsider] I think that’s actually a pretty good solve for 2-3 minion games too sense a person who strictly detects minions is very powerful here.

Either way the best thing to do as Lego is to unfortunately kill both pings. Even if the wrong one is on a good TF. Another nuclear solution would be to make a minion like Goblin or boomdandy that’s bad to be executed

[placid gull]

I like these observations okay.
I don't think I'll go with any of them (except the +1 minion, that's already being experimented with) though I don't find the idea of a Boomdandy/Goblin totally unattractive, I just don't know how to balance it on a script of this nature.

[topaz flame]

Ya, I will say the only problem with an execution minion is you have to execute them to win which goes against the main theme of the script.

We don’t really want people to be scared of executing minions on a minion executing script

I just yhink +1 minions solves a lot of problems lol.

[placid gull]

Right
Though an idea has just occurred to me...

[topaz flame]

What dat

[placid gull]

a Mastermind-goblin hybrid:
"If Sauron claims that you (and only you) are {role} when you are {nominated/executed}, the game continues, even if Sauron would die. If {town does something wrong}, evil wins."
(assume this one will be less wordy when completed)

• Bluffable if it's absent, Sauron can claim it and spook town into wondering if the game is truly over.
• Doesn't actually make town fear the execution itself, but makes them live in fear of the consequences after the fact. "Is this a mastermind day?" type of stuff.
• Gives Sauron some more agency, though admittedly might be low-agency for the minion themselves.

The thought also occurred to have a Devil's Advocate type;
"Twice per game, Sauron may choose that a player survives execution." but that's admittedly quite strong, town must make very few mistakes in order to win based on number of executions. Perhaps there's some sort of iteration on this that works though.

[next fiber]

Saruman wish for a mastermind day

[topaz flame]

It’s not horrible but only if it’s not the last minion to die. If it’s the last minion to die and Sauron dies, good wins (they just don’t do the thing they can’t do). It’d be like a mastermind day after killing a leech, rather pointless.

[placid gull]

"even if Sauron would die" here implies Sauron living, or at least was meant to.

[topaz flame]

I see

[placid gull]

it's actually sorta meant to be the last minion to die, otherwise its arguably a liability

[topaz flame]

My only thought that good would have to do is pass the ring to Sauron. Pass the ring to Sauron on the mastermind day or evil wins. If they do pass in that day good wins.
If it’s not the last minion to die it has some evil bluffability

[ancient cairn]

Trying to run this script if anyone is intrested, link in lfgofficial

[topaz flame]

It’s not a bad minion idea, but I’m still worried it goes against the core idea of execute minions. Or keep minions safe

Like base game the minions can be loud and execution ready so the demon can be safe. This script wants the demon to be loud so the minions can be safe.
A minion like that says ‘the demon and me can loud’

[placid gull]

what I'm thinking is that Sauron has the potential to spook town even if the Minion isn't real...like it's not really a "loud" minion, as such, it's just the suggestion that the game is on a knife's edge and town must make a judgement call.
More Fearmonger than Goblin, as such. Doesn't risk the minion's life, particularly, it's just that if the Minion does actually die, evil has some maneuvering they can do.

[placid gull]

I fear this only because it's pretty goblin-esque, only it requires just the Ringbearer to be fooled, rather than town consensus.
Ideally, we'd want something that Sauron can goad town into doing without ending the game, just putting good in a worse position. This, however, is hard to pull off.

[analog forge]

Legolas: you begin knowing one player, who might be evil

(/s)

Bim your ideas remind me of the leaked Sicilian character

[placid gull]

not an unfair comparison

[topaz flame]

whoa

A minion that appears as Saruon and the real one doesn't get announced.
This minion has 0 issues

[analog forge]

Sauron's Body Double

[forest dirge]

We already tried the warband

[placid gull]

this is true if you don't consider "let's execute Sauron day one every game" an issue :)

[floral rivet]

Speaky Neaky

[jaunty wedge]

ah yes, the bite out of the wizard hat

[floral rivet]

Mhm

it was in the original

so I kept it

something liked the taste of hat

[jaunty wedge]

yea, that could've been any one of us

any one of us coulda did that

[floral rivet]

mhm

[hushed merlin]

(it was me. i was hungry)

[floral rivet]

Oh ok

[jaunty wedge]

oooh

[placid gull]

that's odd...I took a bite as well. Must've been from the back end.

[topaz flame]

IS THIS IS THE BITE OF 87????!!!!!?????

[placid gull]

anybody made a custom fnaf script yet?

I feel like the evil team makes itself

[jaunty wedge]

There is 1 good character.

you choose which side of the grim you are immune from each night. good luck :)

[placid gull]

wait why does this sound kinda fun

each evil player has oddly specific conditions in order to kill and the good player has to figure out which conditions might be met

[placid gull]

closed it for now, will open again later probably

[floral rivet]

There are 2 bites in the hat

[floral rivet]

😮

[jaunty wedge]

oh I thought

I also took a bite out of the hat

[floral rivet]

that is a 3rd bite...

did you bite in a place someone already bit?

[topaz flame]

I don’t think it’s bad but I don’t know if it’s that great. If someone choose 3 I would only tell them 1 or 2 in play characters. If 2, then binary choice, probably I would tell 1 in play good and bad. If 1, one in play good or bad, leaning bad.

Choosing 3 just seems like forcing to parse through at least 1 false info.

(In response to Aragorn change, who I think is fine right now

[jaunty wedge]

Saruman wish: "I wish to be Saruman in the next game"

[floral rivet]

0-0

[placid gull]

Lobby open again folks!

False alarm!

Littleinhuman started a homebrew mere moments before me

I'll let them give it a shot

might not get one this night, but I guess ping me if someone gets wind of a chance :)

[jaunty wedge]

awwww

outbid them

o wait the lobby is gon

e

@bim

how tf did I

anyway

@placid gull

[placid gull]

what???

[jaunty wedge]

yuh

[placid gull]

ok guess I'll try a third time

[jaunty wedge]

homebrew lobby is kill

https://botc.app/join/84362 Join us !! maybe

[topaz flame]

I'm playing games right now too. Quantum clocktower, then homebrew later

[analog forge]

LOOKS LIKE HAT'S BACK ON THE MENU!

[placid gull]

you're just my favorite, y'know that?

[jaunty wedge]

[topaz flame]

about to play a game of LotR https://botc.app/join/multiverse

[floral rivet]

Neaky Speaky

I also made this other option

[jaunty wedge]

yessssss

[next fiber]

This one is so much better

[lunar prairie]

+1 minion? On what?

[placid gull]

it's on an experimental unreleased minion we've cobbled together.
Warband:
"Sauron & Minions think Sauron is an Warband. Until their 1st kill, no-one starts knowing who Sauron is. Each night*, a player might die. [+1 Warband]"

[lunar prairie]

Hmmmm