Clockwork Cyborg

[solemn ruin]

initially misread this as all the livetexties on stream

[round fiber]

Good won before F3. Good were in a good spot because of a FT yes on the demon since D1.

[crisp trout]

and then he didn’t do boffin

[wintry lance]

I've been saying Harpy, but vati no likey Harpy

[fossil tiger]

oh hey, this is true for CC now

[wintry lance]

Requiem I'm sorry I stole your joke

To give my two cents, GF is the weakest minion on the script. Hands down, I'm sorry, it's just a fact. However, it enables some cool sneaky underhanded tactics. The only reason I think Harpy is better is because it enables equally sneaky underhanded tactics and keeps up with the rest of the minion suite.

[graceful seal]

Harpy also sucks ass here

Where exactly do you see direct evil pings

Also let me be clear

Godfather is a threat because this script often has “+2 outsiders and this is normal actually”

[wintry lance]

Dreamer, FT, Seamstress, TC, and Amne

Well, not amne

[graceful seal]

Dreamer is not an evil ping

[wintry lance]

"I'm the dreamer, I dreamed x as a role, they gave me a different role. They're evil"

[graceful seal]

TC does not point to specific players most of the time

[graceful seal]

This is a script with poli.

[wintry lance]

So?

[graceful seal]

And damsel

[wintry lance]

Fulfilling harpy madness

[graceful seal]

and fucking cerenovus

[wintry lance]

Besides, the dreamer would see Damsel and Poli

[graceful seal]

It’s a bad excuse

Also we already have cerenovus

[wintry lance]

Besides, it's better than hard confirming players.

It's just a better Godfather

[graceful seal]

It’s worse cere

[wintry lance]

Godfather is worse witch

And besides, your point can actually work for the Harpy. Kill kill kill, nobody is hard confirmed, evil moves forward

Godfather works well, it's just that Harpy works very well.

[sudden tendon]

Harpy is terrible here both for its usual reasons and because the script by design makes evil pings come in slowly most games

[hollow ravine]

ok but have you tried completely reworking the script to make harpy work?

[viral pumice]

You should put baron here! People would just pick it for the aura

[wintry lance]

I was thinking more that the slow evil pings, if anything, makes Harpy better

[hollow ravine]

just run active baron

ez

aka fast pithag

[sudden tendon]

Flesh and Bone gaming

[wintry lance]

It's just absurd how much faster it makes the game, so it keeps up with a minion suite it has no business being in

[graceful seal]

Consider the gameplay of adhering to that madness

Which will be semiouted because it’s harpy without very direct evil pings

[fossil tiger]

the real answer is viziert

[graceful seal]

Vizier here is cool now

[wintry lance]

I have considered it for a while as requested, and I have come to the conclusion Harpy is more appealing given the environment. Sure, go ahead play semi outed with the Harpy madness. Evil will just get two kills.

You can get creative with Harpy madness, even with delayed pings.

Basically, it becomes a lot easier for the Harpy to get kills. This indirectly buffs Witch as the tempo duo becomes much more viable, and makes PD a lot scarier.

However, I have also considered this would force the removal of Moonchild. Therefore, Godfather should stay.

But aside from MC, Harpy is actually really good with slow pings, it just becomes a killer.

Wait... typing that out I realize the problem is it's too strong, not too weak. Huh

Nevermind, I'm convinced

[tired heron]

yea the harpy you're describing is a faster killing psychopath that doesnt out evil

[wintry lance]

Psycho is an interesting thought. Not better than Godfather, but an interesting thought.

[sick sedge]

it’s strong while being deeply unfun to be the target of

[hollow ravine]

normally madness has at least some level of agency

harpy with no early pings doesn't really

[graceful seal]

like, you play semi outed because theres no other option that isn't "Cerenovus but better"

[void wasp]

it makes harpy madness on day 1 more obvious and less believable

[tawny cloud]

Socially quiet but still impactful madness is best madness imo

[wintry lance]

I've been convinced guys. Please stop telling me that a Super Psychopath is a bad idea.

So, crunching the numbers:
Assassin: Worse than GF
Baron: Kazali script
Boffin: Not much here that makes it better than Widow
Boomdandy: Might work
Cerenovus: On script
Devil's Advocate: Too strong
Evil Twin: Too weak
Fearmonger: Too weak, too loud
Goblin: PD & SW
Godfather: The hypothetical remove
Harpy: Too strong
Marionette: Kazali script
Mastermind: Loud here
Mezepheles: Too strong
Organ Grinder: Too loud
Pit Hag: Too strong
Poisoner: Too strong
Psychopath: Interesting thought, but not likely to improve the script much
Scarlet Woman: On script
Spy: Redundant with Widow
Summoner: Script warper
Vizier: Probably a thrall
Widow: On script
Witch: On script
Wizard: Script warper
Wraith: Redundant with Widow, Damsel
Xaan: Potentially, but not likely to make the script much better

[sick sedge]

see godfather is just Cool

[graceful seal]

BD is off for the same reason as goblin

[wintry lance]

I have never denied that

[high token]

Re: Psycho, GF replaced Psycho back in v2

[eager perch]

Probably a trawll? What does that mean

[solemn ruin]

A thrall is a joke term for the evil version of an Outsider -- it's an Evil player with an ability that hurts the Evil team

[graceful seal]

vizier is silent here

[wintry lance]

It's still probably a thrall

At best it's a worse Psychopath

[graceful seal]

it forces an execution not a death

[wintry lance]

Hmm, fair.

[eager perch]

Why thou

Vizier its strong when its silent

Imagine exe confirmed good players left and right

[graceful seal]

kind of hard to do that when the first time you have to claim vizier

it's like, psycho loud and not "I am the Vizier"

[eager perch]

Its fun as hell i love silent Vizier

Insta wins on final 4

[wintry lance]

It's basically a psychopath that wastes executions in exchange for hard confirming goods

[eager perch]

??? Whats wrong with confirming that 1 out of 4/5 players is good?

[wintry lance]

Oh nothing, but it is basically a Psychopath

And I personally like Psycho more. It's more flexible

[eager perch]

Nononono, its a worse cerenovus maybe?

[graceful seal]

it's a cere that can get 1 surprise proc and maybe 1 other proc that's less good

[wintry lance]

Honestly silent Viz is just really cool. I bet there's going to be some support on its home script to justify everyone knowing they're the Vizier though

[eager perch]

If i am the vizier and i declare myself evil i am most likely to frame people that speak with as evil

[wintry lance]

So again, a psychopath?

[eager perch]

Psychopath doesnt waste town executions!

[wintry lance]

It also doesn't require any conditions to work

It's a reskined Psychopath. Not a bad thing, but it is

[eager perch]

Not in my opinion, it has its own merid

With the fact that it cant be killed

[graceful seal]

... if it gets one

[eager perch]

I dont see the problem with final 3 with a Viz between the 2 demon candidates

One slip up and its over

[sudden tendon]

Me when I Kazali pick the Alsaahir

[graceful seal]

no it's in any game

they changed it

[eager perch]

AWWWWWW THAT THE JINX ITS IN PLAY NO MATTER WHATTTTTT

Joyjinxxxxxx

[sudden tendon]

I kind of hate that even more lol

[graceful seal]

what's wrong with it

it's actually possible it won't be a thrall now

[eager perch]

Joyjinx hater

[graceful seal]

I think it fixes my levi heretic script...

[sudden tendon]

Yeah via a townsfolk ability that isn't exceptionally strong in the first place

[graceful seal]

doesn't have to be in play in fairness

[eager perch]

Its a not a bug its a feature

[graceful seal]

and like it's fine, alsaahir or investigator just has to be on the same script as vizier at all times so we don't need a bootlegger

[eager perch]

First ever clocktower JoyJinx

[graceful seal]

who cares about the source

[graceful seal]

MM alhad

OG Alch

[eager perch]

Cerenovus Goblin

[graceful seal]

that one is cringe

[wintry lance]

No it's good. It's just nobody has used it well.

[eager perch]

Yeah but Viz Inves/alsahiir its different because it doesnt need both to be in play to be working.

Just as hate jinx where it requires the opposite

Heretic whatever touches outsiders evil characters.

[eager perch]

Give me an example of it being used well

[wintry lance]

You use it late it the game with a legitimate frame. Now you have a frame who has just outed as Goblin. Also you can bluff this happening as well.

The trick is to make it look like the frame has abandoned all hope and is banking on a 50/50. The other thing that happens is they read like a demon, as this late a wrong execution could be fatal, so they'll try to stay off the block. It's a little closing play, and late it actually looks more real.

[eager perch]

Interesting if i am playing as a cere and i have this option i will try to use this

See if it works

[crisp trout]

whimsy hater

can’t believe i’m agreeing with nerdguy over you here vati

but the jinx is simply peak

also i made a script that centers around it so no bias here

[primal holly]

yeah but moonchild is a townsfolk so it evens out :nodders:

[sudden tendon]

After a long string of very evilsided bags from people reading "Moonchild is balanced closer to a townsfolk on this script than what people usually try to balance it as when they're scripting around it on purpose" as "Moonchild is a townsfolk" I'm much more careful these days to clarify that no it is not

[crisp trout]

moonchild is THE townsfolk

yeah godfather definitely prevents moonchild from reaching full TF levels here

[sudden tendon]

It also just actually sucks because it is not a role that receives real info on a script where the kind of confirmation it gives kind of sucks

Like the main use it has is constantly picking the demon

It intentionally doesn't balance at either point and if you balance it as a true townsfolk the resulting town will be very sad

[fossil tiger]

Vizier probably isn’t a thrall here while silent

and like “probably a thrall” for the reason why it’s not on script is funny because witch is on script

[eager perch]

Witch godfather sinergy go brrrrrrrr

This script is heavy on the minions being kinda lame on its own in a solo minion game

[wintry lance]

Witch is really useful here.

[noble folio]

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I've had good games when replacing GF with Goblin. Alsahiir counters the perceived strength of Goblin on this script somewhat.

[fossil tiger]

goblin scarlet woman is vile and basically needs perfect knowledge of the evil team to win

that said I am making a solo kazali script with goblin over sw

[fluid tulip]

I think Goblin Scarlet Woman is only vile when evil realises it is

[dense sluice]

Vile is a strong word yeah lol

[fluid tulip]

What I kinda mean is

I've played it

I think it's bad in theory and when you have a bunch of really experiened players who love saying "hey let's play goblin really well and start doing 3 Goblin monte strategy" as evil

Yes, in this case, it's quite bad

However, when you're not playing against that, and you quite often aren't, the way the goblin and the Scarlet Woman plays might be distinguished

And evil aren't doing '3 goblin monte'

Like maybe it's just because I was playing with players who aren't super experienced in this interaction, it's possible

The idea of an interaction which, when played optimally is unfun, isn't great

But it's a bit of a weird one IMO because while players don't realise 3 goblin monte exists (and it's not like, trivial to find becasue it often involves the evil team outing evil), it's actually alright in practice

[tired heron]

evil win

[sudden tendon]

what is the sarah and bobby thing about btw

I apparently missed something

[tired heron]

🤷‍♂️ i just know that lepa is sarah and xyz is bobby

[shy delta]

In games that begin with one or two Outsiders, when all Outsiders are turned into minions and Librarian learns "No Outsiders in play", is that a serious advantage for the good team?

[sudden tendon]

Generally speaking this should only be happening in base 0/1 games (so the extreme case of it in base 2 shouldn't happen); librarian 0 is strong for town but there are enough reasons for it to be wrong (Recluse can misregister, Puzzlemaster/Widow can droison, Politician can claim lib 0, easy bluff for a Librarian-turned-minion who isn't a widow and can't see the grim to cast doubt on outsider claims) that it doesn't mean outsider claims in the game are outed evil

the recluse/librarian interaction is particularly interesting here

[shy delta]

Great explanation, and I agree the Librarian fits. Thank you

[lime cape]

Gave +1 Thanks to @sudden tendon (current: #126 - 434)

[sudden tendon]

godfather stays winning

[crisp trout]

vatiborg

[primal holly]

dog i mean look at this seamstress ping

[tired heron]

i kind wish they gave a no on us tbh

wouldve made the game a lot more interesting

[sudden tendon]

The world I wanted didn't want to put a seam no or droison there

[tired heron]

i think people liked my worlds better 😉

[crisp trout]

it was heavily pondered

[graceful seal]

What travellers are good

[solemn ruin]

.

[noble folio]

if only there was someone who could pin that message

[fast maple]

good point!

[wintry lance]

Let's play a game called "count the mods in this channel"

(4, the answer is 4. Paradox, Axolator, Blitz, and vati)

[tired heron]

smh you miscounted

proxi is here too

[sick sedge]

#demodaxo

[wintry lance]

Hey @sudden tendon, for no particular reason what color do you think embodies this script the most?

[hollow ravine]

orange would be my guess, but i believe this was discussed here before?

[wintry lance]

Orange, I see.

[graceful seal]

vibes say grey

[wintry lance]

Grey?

[hollow ravine]

.

[graceful seal]

It's in the name

oh shit this exists

[wintry lance]

I think it's purple then

Alright, purple seems the definitive answer!

[graceful seal]

really doesn't seem like a purple imo

for being called "clockwork cyborg" a brass/metal color seems more fitting

[hollow ravine]

i was thinking orange for clockwork orang

[wintry lance]

A Clockwork Cyborg

[graceful seal]

looks like a band

[wintry lance]

I noticed how the Kazali's eyes are perfect for making an homage to the poster for A Clockwork Orange and was compelled to make this drawing

I apologize for my very bad Microsoft Paint art skills.

I might do this for other scripts. Probably not though.

[graceful seal]

Google slides is better

[wintry lance]

Dully noted

[dusky pewter]

the Savant outed the D1 info "The Damsel neighbours the Scarlet Woman OR The Demon neighbours the Widow" on D2

[dusky pewter]

(ignore the info on the savant reminder token, i wrote it during n1 & changed it during d1 to be more specific)

[wintry lance]

Wow, not the greatest idea

[wintry lance]

Hey vati, please don't.

[crisp trout]

good win

f3 was the librarian confirmed poli, the essentially amne confirmed banshee, and the SW katz

it was a rough game for evil for a multitude of reasons

• Amne ability of “ENCAP, learn if their neighbors are the same character type” was guessed VERY quickly (bingo d2) so the info was quite strong
• Witch never got a kill
• Witch who bluffed a widow ping outted evil to cover for the SW (i did like the play tho) and thus a lot of widow poison worlds broke

Despite all that, they managed to waste good’s dead votes so that in f3 good only had 1 more vote than evil (not counting the poli)

[shy delta]

Is it frequent that games of this script confirm there is a Godfather in play?

[solemn ruin]

It does happen, since there are very few reasons for multiple deaths at night (it's Moonchild, Plague Doctor granting a Godfather ability, or the Godfather). Two of these require specific claims, so a dangling extra kill usually suggests a Godfather very strongly.

On many scripts, confirming a Godfather is in play also confirms the Outsider count, which can help Good pretty drastically. Because this is a solo-Kazali script, that's much less of an issue here.

[shy delta]

Yea, the Outsider count is fine. What concerns me is the Kazali's minion choice. In a two minion game, why would I ever choose Godfather? The other four choices seem approximately equal–maybe leaning slightly towards SW/Witch–but Godfather seems like the clearly worst option. Consequently, I don't know what its synergy in the script is.

[iron hedge]

Get kills

[shy delta]

In a 3 minion game, I am always choosing SW, and probably Witch and Widow

[iron hedge]

Godfather has synergy with witch/cere

Somewhat

It’s worse in 1 minion game

[solemn ruin]

I'm probably never choosing to make a Godfather in a 10 player game, but I'd think about it at 12p! An outed Godfather can discourage executing Outsider claims in late game (and cut down on town's total number of executions), while a surprise Godfather can end the game early. Different players will choose different Minion types to suit their playstyle, which is part of what's fun here as well.

[shy delta]

How many Outsiders will generally make a 12p bag?

[sudden tendon]

3

[iron hedge]

2-4

[sudden tendon]

I personally think witch is the worse of the killing minions and this is loosely supported by how both of them actually play out -- ultimately it's playstyle dependent (are you more confident you can direct nominations or executions?)

[iron hedge]

vizier is the worst killing minion

[fast maple]

I think anecdotally Godfather has an incredibly high winrate

at least from what I've observed

[solemn ruin]

(hi Waffles)

[fast maple]

It's great to confound Moonchild, it's a nice bit of info for the evil team that doesn't compromise a Damsel wincon (the way Widow poisons the Damsel via the jinx), it's generally quite powerful even despite the fact it's very loud

in a 2-minion game I like many of these options depending on the group but Godfather/SW is pretty great

[solemn ruin]

The Godfather has been pretty darn successful in any game I've run where it was made, though my player counts are skewed (I usually don't get <15 signups for CC)

[fast maple]

even if the Kazali gets Moonchild-picked, you can just godfather kill em and pass to the scarlet

[iron hedge]

Nah, the moonchild is widow poisoned

[fast maple]

I don't think there's a single correct or optimal choice here which is what makes this script great at showcasing the Kazali by itself

[iron hedge]

I’m constantly misremembering this script is called clocktower cyborg

[maiden oak]

I think this script does a great job at not having the perfect choice! You just have to pick based on what you most need

[wintry lance]

Godfather is the weakest minion on the script, full stop. Which makes it the perfect choice for any tricky bastard who wants to run a "who would be stupid enough" gambit. This, generally, works.

[zenith bluff]

ah canadian catfishing strikes again

[shy delta]

Yea despite what everyone has said, I still don't see how Godfather can compete with the other minions here over a large sample size. I would need to see some games of CC where Godfather dominates to believe the anecdotes. I only ever choose Godfather here a little bit of the time if I know other players know I won't choose Godfather.

[eager perch]

It makes every outsider claim late game fairly not executionable

And that its good i think.

[wintry lance]

Cere can achieve that just fine

[shy delta]

This makes Godfather work as a threat, helpful to be on script, and rarely in play

[wintry lance]

But gf does do it better, for the record

I've been a gf skeptic myself, but I can't see much working better... cough cough psychopath cough cough

[eager perch]

Noo but godfather its a more brutal game accelerator because they can end the game, even thou it does do the same thing as a witch.

[shy delta]

Assuming there are 3 outsiders added and none of them were chosen for a minion (unlikely), it's still unlikely to have more than one still alive near the end of the game. And you just save Outsider exes for F3, just like Saint claims

[wintry lance]

But moving on, it does work.

[eager perch]

Godfather its the big brain minion.

[wintry lance]

Godfather is like pulling an ace out of your sleeve when good doesn't expect it. If good is airtight enough, it's not as good as the other minions. However, good usually doesn't do that, since this script is designed to be frustrating. Therefore, it's viable, if risky. It's a c-tier minion in a solidly b-tier cast.

[eager perch]

(Godfather its the wincon minion)

[shy delta]

In 10-15p games, Scarlet Woman is an A-tier minion, only beaten by Mez and Baron

[wintry lance]

Poisoner.

[eager perch]

The faaaaar faaaaar superior pit hag

(sets dungeon its shitttt)

[wintry lance]

But yeah, sw is definitely the toughest minion here

[shy delta]

Poisoner second most overrated minion behind Pit Hag

🥱

[eager perch]

I agree

Overrated as hell.

[wintry lance]

I have never seen poisoner on script do anything but ruin worldbuilding in every concievable way

It's stronger than fucking baron

[shy delta]

Nothing is stronger than Baron (Mez is an illegitimate character that doesn't exist)

[wintry lance]

Xaan is stronger than baron, and poisoner is stronger than xaan

Poisoner's 3D droison is something nothing else can do

Baron removes 2 townsfolk, but it's not too great out of play. Poisoner ensures that for every time anyone can build a world on your script, you can build a significant counter-world.

I remember a TB game where, with no misinfo and backed into a corner, through the threat of poisoner alone we got town to disregard half their info as wrong and won handily.

[eager perch]

Thats the moment where you gotta up the game with the meta info, or play on the socials space and have non info characters be semi majority

[wintry lance]

I rescind my comment about xaan. Xaan is stronger than baron in theory. In practice it's weaker

But yeah, poisoner is not overrated, if anything it's severely underrated, which is saying something given its position in the power six

[eager perch]

Xaan its stronger when key real good info slips thru a xaan night but good team ignores it because it was the xaan night

[wintry lance]

Also it's stronger if it, you know, adds two outsiders. If that happens, fire your ST.

[eager perch]

I fire myself then

[iron hedge]

I remember all 25 characters on catfishing

Wrong

[zenith bluff]

Name them

Now

No looking it up

[iron hedge]

Chef invest grandma FT snake dreamer gambler amne philo RK cannibal balloonist savant
Drunk mutant sweetheart lunatic recluse
GF widow cere pithag
Imp FG vigor

[zenith bluff]

Ah see you forgot we’re Canadian, there’s no Sweetheart

[crisp trout]

Good win that somehow made it to a final day. The Kazali was lifted off the block every single day. The witch got 3 kills tho so somehow despite the entire evil team being outted, it was a 50/50 on the final day

[void wasp]

the demon was simply outed demon on day 2 🙏

[sudden tendon]

@fossil tiger the other req lost livevoice cc

[primal holly]

good win

[crisp trout]

what was amne ability

[primal holly]

literally balloonist

[dusky pewter]

evil win

1 witch kill (ft d1)

[round fiber]

The script is streamed on Arif's stream rn

[sudden tendon]

how did it go

[round fiber]

The second game was quite interesting and ended up with an evil win
The first one ended quite quickly

That was the good win

[wintry lance]

Did the poli flip?

[tired heron]

most normal amnesiac ability

[round fiber]

Nope. Evil had it anyways

[sick sedge]

wait hold on zombiecleo on arif's stream??

[crisp trout]

WHAT

[sick sedge]

and joehills in twitch chat

wild

[crisp trout]

this is incredible

[sick sedge]

cleo is the reason i got into clocktower

[crisp trout]

zombiecleo is how i got into Botc

SAME

YO

[sick sedge]

LMAO

[crisp trout]

my goat

[sick sedge]

https://klipy.com/gifs/handshake-of-the-gods

[wintry lance]

Wait wait wait wait how did that happen?

[tawny cloud]

I’m guessing someone in Arif’s community saw that the Vampires SMP group played some Clocktower and took interest in them from that?

[wintry lance]

My best guess would've been something involving Yogscast got one of them aware of the other?

[sick sedge]

unsure how cleo ended up on arif’s stream but a couple seasons of hermitcraft ago they ran clocktower on the server so they’ve been around the game for a good while now

[eager perch]

Who???

[crisp trout]

minecraft youtuber

[eager perch]

Ohhhh

[tropic pebble]

I'm so sad

We ran two games of Clockwork Cyborg as a bit of a playtest on Friday, and they were amazing. The two on stream weren't as fun unfortunately (still good vibes)

I'd like to run the script again sometime soon. It's got all my favourite things on it

[fluid tulip]

Oooo

Out of curiosity what are your favourite things

[wintry lance]

Rain drops on roses and whiskers on kittens...

[hollow ravine]

bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens...

[tropic pebble]

brown paper packages, tied up with strings

Aka Kazali, Banshee, it’s missing a Wizard but I’m okay with that atm, Amne (I’ve started to really enjoy running fun Amne abilities recently), Pixie

[iron hedge]

Peanut butter jelly, peanut butter jelly…

[noble folio]

Which minion would you replace with Wizard?

[iron hedge]

Seriously tho if I’m playing this I’m playing for kazali

Bc playing for anything else there’s a better script

Nothing is core to the script except kazali here

[tropic pebble]

Honestly? I probably wouldn’t. I think the minion set is right for this script.

Wizard on Kazali scripts tends to overshadow the other minions. Right now there’s opportunity for some really fun combos

[iron hedge]

Sometimes a script require minions to not be wizard

So non wizard minions isn’t just, relatively bad

[sudden tendon]

How did those games go 👀

[hollow ravine]

just start inviting me to your games /j

although wizard is less a character than a loric imo

[iron hedge]

-# 😭 that's so untrue

[hollow ravine]

you don't know my opinions

[graceful seal]

you indeed have

opinyons

[iron hedge]

wizard is the most character character

[graceful seal]

wizard is my gambit machine

[iron hedge]

it would behave so differently as a loric

for real

just bc it has to be less evilsided

[graceful seal]

I don't think that was the take

[hollow ravine]

tbc i mean this more in terms of script presence than in play

[graceful seal]

Oh

Yea

[crisp trout]

i think the ST gave themselves psycho with the PD ability by accident

[tawny cloud]

Who’s dead in that board state?

[crisp trout]

oh good question

no idea i just found this game in livevoice after it ended

[fast maple]

big win

[fluid tulip]

Epique

[tawny cloud]

Just ran my first game of the script, everyone seemed to enjoy it. It was online and I completely forgot to take a screenshot but I can probs recreate the final grim

Evil won in a close f3 of plague doctor/cere/SW

[eager perch]

Good Wins. Socials Read in doutbful information from an evil looking General from day 2 made the game. All evil players alive but the witch killed the Banshee and ended in 4 where everyone was socially confirmed evil

Amnesiac died day 2 and could see nothing

The Moonchild nominated the demon and good won.

Banshee was a great dilemma for the evil team do we eat our pride and kill him, or frame him as evil

[tawny cloud]

Amne ability: YSK longest chain of incongruent character types (ie, 6). Just went for the usual cause my brain wasn’t particularly working, but hey

Moonchild picked demon and got them killed the next day. Cerenovus was executed in f3, town didn’t manage to build the SW as evil in many worlds at all. I think the info density was fine

[tawny cloud]

What tool are you using here for the grim? The town square tool seems to not have the kazali as part of its character set

[sick sedge]

are you on clocktower.online instead of clocktower.live?

[tawny cloud]

Oh cool, yeah turns out I was using the wrong version. The old one is the first of the two for search results

[eager perch]

Klutzbanana has the option to create grims

[crisp trout]

evil win

poli claimed recluse and was "confirmed" when the godfather kill went through

so then everyone killed the math for not proccing the FT picking the recluse

on f3

100% deserved poli flip

[crisp trout]

cerenovus outted evil by accident

f3 was kaz witch banshee

amne was vestal virgin

[dense bison]

livetext good win!

poli bluffed savant info that somehow correctly led to the demon

[tawny cloud]

Would you say this script is beginner-friendly?
I’ve never been able to gauge Kazali well tbh

[dense sluice]

The contention is with Damsel and Politician more so than Kazali

At higher player counts especially

[sudden tendon]

I keep hearing about games of it with beginners

It's a complex script but if you think your group can handle it you can try

[noble folio]

it's certainly not Wizard / Atheist levels of complexity, though it does have quite a bit of Madness and freeform abilities like Amnesiac, Savant, etc.

[fast maple]

The high concept involves really convoluted info that slowly gets unraveled over time -- you could do worse as other people have said, but it's certainly not beginner-friendly nor super approachable

[solemn ruin]

I've run this for brand new players, though I'd only recommend it if you have a group of friendly and patient experienced players with 1-2 newbies. Don't put a Damsel in the bag, keep your Amnes/Savants approachable, and you'll do alright.

Because it's a Kazali script, the new player is unlikely to be chosen as a Minion or built evil, which drastically lowers the chance their first game is "crumbling under pressure because they haven't seen how to play as an evil character." When reading the rules, I give a very brief script rundown in which I mention the Scarlet Woman as a safety net Minion, so newer players who pull Kazali and feel less confident know that's an option.

[primal holly]

i feel like i’m smoking crack clockwork cyborg is like an uber safe option

[eager perch]

It is safe if your group its more pros that novices

[tawny cloud]

I mean, yeah, damsel and kazali were the only two real things that I was like ‘hmm maybe not super comfy for newer players’

But it’s good to hear that it’s had traction as a beginner-friendly script, that’s definitely good to note

I love that this is below the current version of the script lol

[noble folio]

And he didn't even do it 😢

[eager perch]

Godfather the goat

The win condition minion

[crisp trout]

godfather is cool ngl

i like how the meta evolved so that people use it

shoutout to that one time someone got dreamt as the godfather and was “confirmed good” since no one picks godfather

(they were the godfather)

it’s also a cool widow sidegrade that lets you damsel guess

[fast maple]

this is why I pick it; it lets Demons bluff Outsider a bit more easily since there's real incentive to not execute them, it gives evil info while not compromising a Damsel guess, and it's just plain fun

[sudden tendon]

it gives evil info while not compromising a Damsel guessCowards. I pick Widow/Godfather to TPK on f6

[solemn ruin]

Vati, as the script creator, I seek your advice: how do I stop getting 15 signups for every goddamned CC game I run?

[sudden tendon]

Run two 12p games in a row with different players

[iron hedge]

Nah, you pick the same person to be minion twice so less ppl share the win with u

[noble folio]

Alsaahir win, Witch had second SW ability from PD

PM picked Dreamer and learnt the dead demon (which got executed literally day 1)

[primal holly]

goblin :squinting:

[viral pumice]

Bra1n runs cc with goblin over godfather

[noble folio]

Yeah, I've asked the players yesterday if they wanted to run the original CC or Goblin instead of Godfather and both times the Goblin version was chosen.

[graceful seal]

We love goblin monte

[round fiber]

Clockwork Cyborg live on Arif's stream I think

[shy delta]

What are the main ways Math connects to this script

[upbeat mica]

prob puzzle and widow

ig recluse as well

if FT picks em or oracle

[eager perch]

Amnesiac too dont forget that

[graceful seal]

amne misinfo???

aight I guess

[graceful seal]

technically widow damsel

[tawny cloud]

Ah yes, a minion guessing the damsel correctly in a widow game, makes sense

[tired heron]

nah, the damsel being poisoned and not sending out a ping pings the math

[tawny cloud]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that

[shy delta]

So is Math info fairly easy to parse

Like you get a 1 N1, what do you do with that

[eager perch]

Search for a Widow ping or puzzlemaster claim

If none of the above are in play, then if no one its found you look out for a recluse.

And if that doesnt ring a bell either. That means that the Widow self picked themselves and the Damsel its poisoned

Or a cheeky amnesiac its on the run

[shy delta]

Is SW a default minion pick in a 15p game

[eager perch]

No

Default pick its witch

[shy delta]

Why is Witch a default pick?

[eager perch]

In my experience its the more important minion to have because it speeds up the game

Like it is more likely to be picked even more that scarlet woman

[shy delta]

If Witch is a default pick, SW can still be a default pick. Kaz chooses 3 minions

I don't see any 15p setup where Kaz should leave out SW

[eager perch]

Widow Cerenovus and Godfather are really the optional ones yeah

[shy delta]

Except as a range balance, maybe dropping it to 90% or something

[eager perch]

Yeah both witch and Scarlet are really default evil teams

[teal compass]

oh that's interesting I would pick widow and cere far before witch most of the time

like I'd absolutely pick witch to throw off being metad or for variety, but widow and cere are both very valuable as well

though I do agree with you about SW, unless the kazali is extremely confident in their ability to read socially good and never get executed

[urban patio]

interestingly enough I've heard people say Witch is the "worst" kazali choice here and I think I agree to an extent

[eager perch]

Ummm maybe

All of them are pretty good

[tawny cloud]

Maybe this script is a good kazali script or something haha

[noble folio]

I've also seen mostly Witch and SW getting picked

in 2 minion games usually SW + X

[fringe isle]

oracle made it to the end, lost a 50-50

[shy delta]

Did you end it here, before the vote?

[fringe isle]

I was tc

I got a "no" on a single nom day and died

[eager perch]

Lol

[fringe isle]

we executed the minion-nominated moonchild who picked an evil but I died

and then oracle lost a 50-50

[eager perch]

Bag needed a general

[fringe isle]

cerenovus was the general

bluffs were banshee, alsahir, and math

[eager perch]

Lol

[fringe isle]

cerenovus was in seam-no d1 claims recluse

seam is executed

but nominated by a good player

so I receive "no"

the day minion nominated someone else they killed me

because I said "tc or banshee"

and the banjo was a bluff

[fringe isle]

"general" said good was winning all game i think btw

plague doctor was ceramad as pixie

1st execution was on seamstress for being spent

2nd was on moonchild to "test"

3rd was on final 3 when oracle nominated cerenovus and the st cut the game short early

general was cleraly lying cause of oracle 0 all game and I think I got a tc no on them

and the oracle had social trust

[shy delta]

How does the Alsaahir work here against the Scarlet Woman creating two demons? Does the Alsaahir have the normal problem of scaling poorly to large games?

[sudden tendon]

It has the normal problem, yeah

Alsaahirs have won in games with procced scarlets before and I expect them to do so again

It makes things tougher but scarlet proccing usually makes things tougher for town in the first place

Dreamer/Fortune Teller both directly identify the possibility this happened which means it's not 100% social but even in games where it's 100% social it's won enough that it's viable (on the backdrop that Alsaahir winning from its ability isn't that many games anyway, though it's more on this script than your average script)

[shy delta]

Is it possible that Scarlet Woman is an optimized minion for the Kazali to choose in games with more than nine players? I would already be tempted to choose SW an increased portion of the time because it's so strong in large games... countering the Alsaahir (and focusing kills elsewhere) is another buff to the Scarlet Woman. I think I'm choosing SW as a minion ~85% of the time in medium-sized games here (range balancing), and ~95% in large games.

[sudden tendon]

Kazali picks will never be perfect, I think most players really appreciate having a scarlet because most players are not super confident in the demon seat

I happen to be particularly comfortable as demons in general and immobile demons in particular compared to average so I prefer to just have active minion abilities at 2 minion

(I've only rolled 3 minion kazali once and in one of my first longtexts)

[graceful seal]

same

[sudden tendon]

I've noticed more people subtweeting kazali/scarlet since the script broke out which I think is really funny

[graceful seal]

wdym

[sudden tendon]

At any rate I think I've gotten the balance about as good as I practically can, it's probably the most-often-picked minion at 2+ now but a large enough share of games don't have one

[sudden tendon]

as in complaining that it's always picked in contexts where CC isn't actually under discussion, which was a lot less common a complaint before the script broke out

(and pre-damsel the equivalent complaint was widow)

[graceful seal]

you're the only kazali script

[sudden tendon]

I don't keep stats anymore and never did have particularly good stats for minions but I think from the games I see that we avoid "games feel samey across groups" levels which is the important thing

(It is a fact of Kazali that it will sometimes seem samey within groups, if much of the group has broadly similar preferred roles)

[shy delta]

What about swapping Alsaahir out for Mayor, Cannibal or Chef?

[sudden tendon]

I'm pretty happy with the stable state -- I don't like having early-evil-placement with Kazali (Shugenja was here for a while and it was very "evil wins if the shugenja is droisoned, good wins if they're sober" and Chef tends to be stronger in the overall game than Shugenja), the way the info works means there isn't a ton of Cannibal food (and I'd rather not all games involve the Librarian being executed d1), and Mayor is cool but I think I prefer it with a bit less info than this (or alternatively a bit more of a way to identify a droisoned Mayor than this)

Alsaahir/Kazali is a unique dynamic and I like that